WEBVTT - The Story: Me, My TV & My Second Screen w/ Jen Statsky

0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:15.880
<v Speaker 1>Welcome to tech Stuff. This is the story. Each week

0:00:15.920 --> 0:00:18.440
<v Speaker 1>on Wednesdays, we bring you an in depth interview with

0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:20.239
<v Speaker 1>someone who has a front row seat to the most

0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:24.000
<v Speaker 1>fascinating things happening in and around tech today. We are

0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:26.880
<v Speaker 1>joined by Jen Statsky, one of the writers and creators

0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:33.440
<v Speaker 1>of the hit MAC series Hacks. Jen got her start

0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:36.160
<v Speaker 1>as a writer on Late Night with Jimmy Fallon. Then

0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:39.159
<v Speaker 1>she joined the writer's room for some of TV's biggest comedies,

0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:42.560
<v Speaker 1>including Parks and Recreation, The Good Place, and the web

0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:46.240
<v Speaker 1>series turned comedy Central sitcom broad City That's the cult

0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:50.000
<v Speaker 1>favorite from Abby Jacobson an Alama Lazer. Then, back in

0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:53.479
<v Speaker 1>twenty nineteen, she and her co creators Lucianello and Paul w.

0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:57.120
<v Speaker 1>Downs pitched Max, the show about two comedians of very

0:00:57.120 --> 0:01:01.680
<v Speaker 1>different generations navigating a changing industry. That show is Hacks,

0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:04.679
<v Speaker 1>a runaway success since it premiered in twenty twenty one.

0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:07.560
<v Speaker 1>Season four of Hacks is out now and I had

0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:10.280
<v Speaker 1>the great pleasure of sitting down with Jen to pick

0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:13.399
<v Speaker 1>her brain about the changing entertainment industry and how things

0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:17.080
<v Speaker 1>like smartphones and chat GPT or g as I like

0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:20.280
<v Speaker 1>to call her, are changing the game for writers Hi, Jen,

0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:21.559
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for being here.

0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:23.399
<v Speaker 2>Hi Kara, thanks for having me.

0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:25.360
<v Speaker 1>I mean, we're going to get into what the show

0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:27.480
<v Speaker 1>is about this season and how good it is, but

0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:29.920
<v Speaker 1>I want to talk to you more as like Jen

0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:33.959
<v Speaker 1>and your experience early on as a comedian and how

0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:36.920
<v Speaker 1>technology has played into your career as a comedian.

0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:37.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, totally.

0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:42.959
<v Speaker 1>Broad City was a show that was started on YouTube, right, Yeah, yeah,

0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:48.360
<v Speaker 1>you were discovered as a comic for late night on Twitter.

0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:49.480
<v Speaker 2>That's right.

0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:51.760
<v Speaker 1>You can't talk that much shit about.

0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:56.560
<v Speaker 2>Technology, no, no, no, I'd be pulling up the ladder

0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:59.920
<v Speaker 2>behind me if I went off on how technology is

0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:02.240
<v Speaker 2>bad and bad for creative yet.

0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:02.400
<v Speaker 1>No.

0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:07.120
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think my rise in television is a

0:02:07.360 --> 0:02:12.440
<v Speaker 2>very interesting like decade because my first writing job at

0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:15.360
<v Speaker 2>Latina and Jimmy Fallon came about because it was twenty

0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:18.160
<v Speaker 2>eleven and it was the time when people were writing

0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:20.760
<v Speaker 2>jokes on Twitter, and that was like a big way

0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:24.960
<v Speaker 2>that people were getting discovered. And that is actually something

0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:28.080
<v Speaker 2>that I loved about it. It was very much so

0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:32.560
<v Speaker 2>like the democratization of joke writing that like anybody could

0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:34.960
<v Speaker 2>write a funny joke and write a bunch of funny

0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:38.160
<v Speaker 2>jokes and then someone who worked in Hollywood and TV

0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:41.000
<v Speaker 2>could see it and be like, oh, this person might

0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:44.800
<v Speaker 2>be really good at this professionally. And yes, Brad City

0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:47.320
<v Speaker 2>was always we still call it a web series.

0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:50.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it felt like web series when it was on

0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:53.760
<v Speaker 1>Comedy Central. Election. Yeah, I mean that in a very possible.

0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:58.959
<v Speaker 2>Way too. Yeah, like it it speaks to how technology

0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:02.120
<v Speaker 2>and the internet can kind of go around institutions in

0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:05.600
<v Speaker 2>a way that is helpful, like abing Alana, we're doing

0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:08.000
<v Speaker 2>upright citizens Trigade Theater in New York at the time,

0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:10.320
<v Speaker 2>which is where I met them and where Paul Lucci

0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:14.160
<v Speaker 2>and we all met. But they weren't having and they've

0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:16.560
<v Speaker 2>spoken in this they weren't having the success in the

0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:18.520
<v Speaker 2>system that they kind of wish they had had. They

0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:20.960
<v Speaker 2>weren't getting on a Harald team, which was like the

0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:24.160
<v Speaker 2>house team that performed every week. They weren't kind of

0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:28.519
<v Speaker 2>one of the prominent people in UCB. But they found

0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:31.560
<v Speaker 2>each other and they had this unique chemistry and they said, like,

0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:34.600
<v Speaker 2>why don't we just make something? And so that's why

0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:37.040
<v Speaker 2>they did it. They started as a web series, and

0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:39.000
<v Speaker 2>what's cool is even though it was a web series,

0:03:39.080 --> 0:03:42.160
<v Speaker 2>they treated it as important as if it was a

0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:45.600
<v Speaker 2>show and they believed it could be great, and that's

0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:47.560
<v Speaker 2>why they said, like, hey, we want to ask Gamy

0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:50.680
<v Speaker 2>Polar to be in this episode. And some people probably

0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:52.760
<v Speaker 2>would have been like, oh, we can't ask Gamy Polar

0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:55.080
<v Speaker 2>to be in our like little web series, you know.

0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:57.440
<v Speaker 2>And she did it, and she loved it, and she said, hey,

0:03:57.440 --> 0:03:59.680
<v Speaker 2>I want to produce this, and that's like what led

0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:03.600
<v Speaker 2>to it getting on television. But it started as a

0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:07.520
<v Speaker 2>web series because the traditional path wasn't necessarily working, so

0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:09.200
<v Speaker 2>they had to do it for themselves.

0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:11.960
<v Speaker 1>I mean, and you make a show that is very

0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:15.960
<v Speaker 1>much institutionally back to now. But I do feel like

0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:20.600
<v Speaker 1>there is a return to independent television making because we're

0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:24.479
<v Speaker 1>in a similar place again where like institutions are failing television.

0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:28.280
<v Speaker 1>They're not failing all television, but institutions are failing a

0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:31.320
<v Speaker 1>lot of people who want to be creators, who I

0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:34.000
<v Speaker 1>think deserve to be creators. And there seems to be

0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:37.560
<v Speaker 1>this return to this idea that like there shouldn't really

0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:40.240
<v Speaker 1>be such a barrier to entry for getting people to

0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:43.560
<v Speaker 1>watch things. And so now that this fifteen year span

0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:46.880
<v Speaker 1>has gone by where places like Twitter and YouTube really

0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:52.080
<v Speaker 1>were like foundational for indie comedy. Do you feel as though,

0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:55.520
<v Speaker 1>as someone who is still very much like involved in

0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:58.240
<v Speaker 1>indie comedy, that this might be a place again where

0:04:58.240 --> 0:04:59.680
<v Speaker 1>people can thrive.

0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:02.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, I hope. So. I think the thing

0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:08.160
<v Speaker 2>that's scary is there's a little bit of the pipeline

0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:11.640
<v Speaker 2>that has been disrupted. Like when I came up, the

0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:15.480
<v Speaker 2>existence of a network like Comedy Central was so important

0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:18.919
<v Speaker 2>and wonderful that they were doing original shows because it

0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:21.880
<v Speaker 2>allowed something like brad City, which started as a web series,

0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:25.560
<v Speaker 2>to be greenlit at a very low cost and a

0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:29.040
<v Speaker 2>very hey we're going to give these two women who

0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:31.360
<v Speaker 2>are so funny and talented but have never done anything,

0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:33.359
<v Speaker 2>We're going to give them a shot. And it was

0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:38.839
<v Speaker 2>relatively low stakes, I think, you know. And now, one

0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:42.159
<v Speaker 2>thing that I find to be scary is that for

0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:45.000
<v Speaker 2>the barrier to entry, like you're saying for television, it's

0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:47.839
<v Speaker 2>really high to go to one of these streamers, to

0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:49.679
<v Speaker 2>go to one of these networks and say, hey, here's

0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:52.640
<v Speaker 2>this idea, please give us the money to make it.

0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:55.560
<v Speaker 2>It feels like there is an incredible amount of pressure

0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:59.839
<v Speaker 2>on it to be successful. Like that's really hard, especially

0:05:59.839 --> 0:06:02.560
<v Speaker 2>in comedy drama is hard to it's hard to get

0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:06.080
<v Speaker 2>any show picked up, but like comedy that exists in

0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:10.760
<v Speaker 2>that kind of Comedy Central version of a Workaholics Abroad CEAO,

0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:13.479
<v Speaker 2>kind of like down and dirty new voices that you've

0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:16.840
<v Speaker 2>never heard before that are getting their chance at a platform.

0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:20.120
<v Speaker 2>It's now really hard I think for people on the

0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:22.960
<v Speaker 2>business side to take a risk on those people, or

0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:26.560
<v Speaker 2>at least it's harder because there's so much pressure on

0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:30.200
<v Speaker 2>shows to be successful right out the gate because of

0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:34.560
<v Speaker 2>this streaming model. There was a guy, an executive at

0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:37.760
<v Speaker 2>a streamer. He's no longer there. We had a lunch

0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:39.760
<v Speaker 2>and I was like, what are you guys like looking

0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:43.360
<v Speaker 2>for in comedy and he was like, honestly, hits And

0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:47.960
<v Speaker 2>I was like, sure, yeah, great, But I think he

0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:51.559
<v Speaker 2>was being truthful in that, like he's like, it's really hard,

0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:54.320
<v Speaker 2>I think to get places to invest into a show

0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:57.960
<v Speaker 2>if it isn't immediately drawing eyeballs because there's such pressure

0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:01.479
<v Speaker 2>to keep subscribers, and it's like, okay, get rid of it.

0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:04.000
<v Speaker 2>Do another one, you know, which is to.

0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:07.320
<v Speaker 1>Say, how the hell do you know what's going to

0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:09.440
<v Speaker 1>be a hit? I mean, I just that as a

0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:11.560
<v Speaker 1>model for how to pick up TV when you think

0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:14.720
<v Speaker 1>about Hacks, which maybe on its face a show that

0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:18.040
<v Speaker 1>is sort of invested in telling the stories of Joan

0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:20.720
<v Speaker 1>Rivers and Philis Diller and Elaine mend Yeah.

0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:22.000
<v Speaker 2>But it was like when we pitched, it was like

0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:26.040
<v Speaker 2>two women talking. I don't know, I'm not so sure

0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:26.720
<v Speaker 2>about this.

0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:29.480
<v Speaker 1>And yet you know it's really worked. So yeah, I mean,

0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:32.920
<v Speaker 1>I just think it's to me, it's riskier to make

0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:36.240
<v Speaker 1>your bets on just like the fact that something's gonna

0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:38.280
<v Speaker 1>be a hit, than to make your bets on something

0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:39.560
<v Speaker 1>that you like, right.

0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:43.600
<v Speaker 2>But I think it's relevant to what you guys talk

0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:47.080
<v Speaker 2>about in the sense that I do think the influence

0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:51.320
<v Speaker 2>of tech and streaming becoming the dominant way people consume

0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:55.440
<v Speaker 2>television kind of has led us to that place, even

0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:59.160
<v Speaker 2>more so than the old model of broadcast TV or

0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:02.280
<v Speaker 2>or it's like show but people buy a cable. But

0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:04.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, I don't know. I think that it's relevant

0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:08.200
<v Speaker 2>because it's a result of technology coming in and disrupting

0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:09.200
<v Speaker 2>things well.

0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:13.240
<v Speaker 1>And also, nobody who worked in television on the creator

0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:17.520
<v Speaker 1>side asked for the business to become a technology business,

0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:20.280
<v Speaker 1>which it now is. I mean, I always say that,

0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:23.680
<v Speaker 1>like Netflix is Regina George and all of the other

0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:29.640
<v Speaker 1>streamers are like Caddy Herron and Amanda Sayfreed, like in

0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:33.040
<v Speaker 1>the sense of there is one streamer and then there's

0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:37.200
<v Speaker 1>YouTube and there's TikTok, and in that way, it's not

0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:40.120
<v Speaker 1>the TV business anymore. It's not the movie business anymore.

0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:44.520
<v Speaker 1>It's the Netflix business. And then you have a video

0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:47.600
<v Speaker 1>platform and a social media platform that like dictate the

0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:48.840
<v Speaker 1>whole business.

0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:54.640
<v Speaker 2>Like they all, whether they needed to or not, chase

0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:58.840
<v Speaker 2>Netflix off this cliff. Netflix is the king of the castle,

0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:03.240
<v Speaker 2>and everybody else's is like trying to keep up. And

0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:06.400
<v Speaker 2>it is really interesting to be on the creative side

0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:08.360
<v Speaker 2>of it. Like running a show, you're on both the

0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:11.600
<v Speaker 2>creative and business side of it, obviously more so the creative.

0:09:11.600 --> 0:09:15.280
<v Speaker 2>But I see a lot of pain within the creative

0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:18.480
<v Speaker 2>community because no one asked for it to become a

0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:22.440
<v Speaker 2>tech business. It's fundamentally changed everything, and yet people still

0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:26.120
<v Speaker 2>came out and have this dream of working in a

0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:30.240
<v Speaker 2>Hollywood that doesn't really exist anymore.

0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:40.120
<v Speaker 1>After the break. More from Jenstatski, co creator and writer

0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:56.360
<v Speaker 1>of the hit show Hacks, stay with us. I want

0:09:56.360 --> 0:10:00.160
<v Speaker 1>to go into Hacks a little bit because Hacks on

0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:02.280
<v Speaker 1>HBO Max, which isn't Netflix.

0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:07.000
<v Speaker 2>Which which isn't even HBO Max. I believe it's just MAXX.

0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:10.920
<v Speaker 1>Sorry, it's Max. It's Max with the black background. At

0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:12.880
<v Speaker 1>least it's Matt Black. I don't know, it's not.

0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:16.200
<v Speaker 2>It's it's kind of like silver machine to it, Like

0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:19.079
<v Speaker 2>it does have its a Sheene, not to be confused

0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:20.720
<v Speaker 2>with Sheen, where I buy a lot of my clothes.

0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:26.520
<v Speaker 1>So with Netflix, there seems to be no problem from

0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:30.760
<v Speaker 1>the top to the bottom to say, look, guys, people

0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:34.480
<v Speaker 1>are watching other stuff while they're watching your shows, Like,

0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:38.000
<v Speaker 1>you better start getting your act together, because people are

0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:42.280
<v Speaker 1>watching YouTube and tiktoks about your shows while they're watching

0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:46.440
<v Speaker 1>your shows, Like there better be an explosion in the

0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:50.520
<v Speaker 1>first minute. Somebody better be moving to Paris in the

0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:53.560
<v Speaker 1>first ten seconds of your show in order for people

0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:56.640
<v Speaker 1>to keep watching. Like, as a creator, how much are

0:10:56.640 --> 0:11:00.880
<v Speaker 1>you considering the various forms of technology that are happening

0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:03.960
<v Speaker 1>simultaneously while anybody is watching hacks?

0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:07.000
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, it's a really good question. I mean, the

0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:10.320
<v Speaker 2>truth is is that you're both very aware of it

0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:14.320
<v Speaker 2>and worried about it, but also trying to at least

0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:17.760
<v Speaker 2>in our experience, quiet that noise and not let it

0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:21.360
<v Speaker 2>interfere with the creative process. No one asked for Hollywood

0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:23.920
<v Speaker 2>to be changed into tech business. We are still trying

0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:26.520
<v Speaker 2>to create shows in the same way that we used to,

0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:31.360
<v Speaker 2>and it's a very interesting conversation. There's you know, some

0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:35.680
<v Speaker 2>reports that Netflix has asked people to write dialogue in

0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:39.600
<v Speaker 2>a way where the characters are out loud speaking I'm

0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:42.000
<v Speaker 2>going to go to the store, and you know, saying

0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:45.199
<v Speaker 2>what they're doing, so that a viewer, if they're on

0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:48.880
<v Speaker 2>their phone, can also just be hearing that and absorbing

0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:52.080
<v Speaker 2>it as a second screen experience. Now, I find this

0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:56.560
<v Speaker 2>topic fascinating because never in a million years has anyone

0:11:56.800 --> 0:11:59.720
<v Speaker 2>come to us spoken of that. Like the reason I

0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:04.959
<v Speaker 2>love of being at HBO, Slash Max is Casey Boys

0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:08.360
<v Speaker 2>and Sarahbbry and everybody. It still very much embodies what

0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:11.080
<v Speaker 2>I think people think about HBO and the heyday of

0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:14.480
<v Speaker 2>like Sopranos, where it's like very creator first. Like the

0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:16.800
<v Speaker 2>idea that they would come to us and talk to

0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:19.719
<v Speaker 2>us about a second screen experience just I can't imagine it.

0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:23.280
<v Speaker 2>And as far as other streamers, I have read the

0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:27.440
<v Speaker 2>articles and I have heard anecdotal stories about it, but

0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:30.120
<v Speaker 2>I've yet to hear any like direct like, yes, this

0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:33.240
<v Speaker 2>happened to me. They said, please write dialogue in this way.

0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:39.880
<v Speaker 2>So I'm very curious if it's truly like a directive

0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:45.280
<v Speaker 2>or is it merely bad dialogue that slips through the

0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:48.480
<v Speaker 2>cracks and then people are retrofitting like, oh, this must

0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:51.280
<v Speaker 2>be what's happening because sometimes that, you know. So I

0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:53.280
<v Speaker 2>write by a dialogue all the time, and then as

0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:55.240
<v Speaker 2>I rewrite, I'm like, oh, no, how about do it

0:12:55.280 --> 0:13:00.280
<v Speaker 2>how a human speaks? St like, So it's possible because

0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:03.000
<v Speaker 2>I and they would never, of course cop to it

0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:05.600
<v Speaker 2>if a streamer was telling people to do that. I

0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:09.800
<v Speaker 2>did anecdotally hear this, and this is true because it

0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:12.640
<v Speaker 2>came from someone who said it happened to them. That

0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:16.520
<v Speaker 2>there was a process of they were making a show

0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:19.720
<v Speaker 2>and they were reviewing the pilot. They were doing notes

0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:23.320
<v Speaker 2>for the pilot, and the streamer said, Hey, in this

0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:28.240
<v Speaker 2>dinner scene, could someone order ice cream? And like they

0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:30.200
<v Speaker 2>were like, you're they're already a dinner, Like, they're at

0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:32.520
<v Speaker 2>the table, there's food. Could just they could there be

0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:34.240
<v Speaker 2>ice cream or someone order ice cream or there be

0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:36.840
<v Speaker 2>I screaming, screaming The person was like why, and they

0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:39.160
<v Speaker 2>were like, from our research, if there's a dessert in

0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:42.640
<v Speaker 2>the first ten minutes, people tend to keep watching. And

0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:46.240
<v Speaker 2>so for me, yeah, I love dessert.

0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:48.000
<v Speaker 1>I wish there was a cake in the beginning of

0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:50.199
<v Speaker 1>The Sopranos. I would have actually the wire, maybe I

0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:51.040
<v Speaker 1>would have finished.

0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:53.520
<v Speaker 2>The Yeah, in adolescence, he should be in the holding

0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:57.800
<v Speaker 2>room eating a sheet cake. But that is a story

0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:00.480
<v Speaker 2>that I did hear that I know to be which

0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:04.160
<v Speaker 2>is crazy and hacks very much. So we have an

0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:07.520
<v Speaker 2>episode this season that delves into this very problem. Is

0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:12.079
<v Speaker 2>that as Hollywood becomes more of a technology based industry,

0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:16.440
<v Speaker 2>we will get this tremendous amount of data about how

0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:21.320
<v Speaker 2>people consume TV and what they respond to. And it's

0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:25.160
<v Speaker 2>really tricky because if you're running Netflix, if you're running Amazon,

0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:27.760
<v Speaker 2>if you're running one of these streamers, it is your

0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:31.280
<v Speaker 2>job to just keep people on your platform and people

0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:35.520
<v Speaker 2>watching and people subscribing. So, from the purely business side

0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:39.000
<v Speaker 2>of it, if you know that ice cream keeps people watching,

0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:43.880
<v Speaker 2>don't you have some responsibility to your shareholders to be like,

0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:45.680
<v Speaker 2>let's get some more ice cream in there.

0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:49.240
<v Speaker 1>Well, and that looking at the not even the viewer,

0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:53.840
<v Speaker 1>but looking at the product as data as like a

0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:56.640
<v Speaker 1>data set I think is really interesting, and that is

0:14:56.720 --> 0:15:01.120
<v Speaker 1>something when Broad City was on YouTube, viewers mattered. I

0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:03.920
<v Speaker 1>think viewership always mattered on YouTube of like how many

0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:07.440
<v Speaker 1>views does this have? But this idea that like each

0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:10.400
<v Speaker 1>little point of connection that a viewer has to a

0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:13.120
<v Speaker 1>product that is coming out of this technology company is

0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:16.120
<v Speaker 1>now of such importance, where like I just don't think

0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:20.640
<v Speaker 1>there was like this sense of datatization of both content

0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:24.600
<v Speaker 1>and viewership up until I don't know, ten years ago.

0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:27.320
<v Speaker 1>And that's I don't know. I'm not saying anything new

0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:30.040
<v Speaker 1>in that regard, but I do think I have some

0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:33.800
<v Speaker 1>empathy for people who work for a technology company versus

0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:37.120
<v Speaker 1>people who work for a studio. You know, You're right,

0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:39.080
<v Speaker 1>It's like there was always and I used to think

0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:41.880
<v Speaker 1>about this all the time, Like I did punch Up

0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:44.240
<v Speaker 1>on a friend's studio movie, and so I was like

0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:46.800
<v Speaker 1>working on this like kind of big budget comedy, and

0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:48.880
<v Speaker 1>I remember being at some of the test screenings, like

0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:52.400
<v Speaker 1>studios have always done test screenings and had responses, and

0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:54.440
<v Speaker 1>even that I remember being like.

0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:58.240
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, like how much of this is good

0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:01.440
<v Speaker 2>or not? To go in and find a bunch of

0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:04.760
<v Speaker 2>people in a mall in Las Vegas, ask them to

0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:08.760
<v Speaker 2>come see this movie and really change the movie based

0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:11.640
<v Speaker 2>on their responses. So there's always been a level of

0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:15.480
<v Speaker 2>gathering data and retrofitting the product to it, which is

0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:19.640
<v Speaker 2>the very difficulty of making movies and TV being both

0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:23.240
<v Speaker 2>art and commerce. But it's like it's gone so much

0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:26.640
<v Speaker 2>further with technology, Like you're saying, like it's like on

0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:30.360
<v Speaker 2>steroids now, because it's every single inflection point, it's, oh,

0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:32.720
<v Speaker 2>this is when they turn it off, this is when

0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:35.600
<v Speaker 2>they stop watching, this is what they rewatch over and over,

0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:39.760
<v Speaker 2>and so there's just all this data that is useful

0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:44.160
<v Speaker 2>to these companies, of course, and it's not so insiduous

0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:46.680
<v Speaker 2>that they're coming to us and saying like, hey, this

0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:49.200
<v Speaker 2>is how we want you to make this show. But

0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:51.760
<v Speaker 2>it's not hard to imagine a world.

0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:54.440
<v Speaker 1>Where it is I watch this season of Hacks, which

0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:56.840
<v Speaker 1>I think is really great. I'm not going to endorse it.

0:16:56.920 --> 0:16:59.160
<v Speaker 1>I was not paid to endorse it. I just want

0:16:59.200 --> 0:16:59.720
<v Speaker 1>to say that I.

0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:02.080
<v Speaker 2>Know, well, will you if I pay you, will you

0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:02.640
<v Speaker 2>endorse it?

0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:04.919
<v Speaker 1>Well, I'll endorse it right here. And there's absolutely no

0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:08.240
<v Speaker 1>bitcoin exchange. There's a terriff on the endorsement. Actually, but

0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:13.719
<v Speaker 1>the season does deal with this idea of art and commerce.

0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:16.359
<v Speaker 1>In fact, there's a line I think that is said

0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:20.760
<v Speaker 1>by Helen Hunt that's like, what is your carpool karaoke?

0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:23.159
<v Speaker 1>So from your point of view as a show, and

0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:27.200
<v Speaker 1>her like, what is this season about? And how does

0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:30.280
<v Speaker 1>a question like that fit into what the season is about?

0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:33.240
<v Speaker 2>The best way I can describe it is season three,

0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:38.080
<v Speaker 2>we were focusing on Deborah going after her dream job

0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:42.399
<v Speaker 2>with underline under dream, and this season you get your

0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:46.600
<v Speaker 2>dream job and the word underlined his job. And that's like,

0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:48.840
<v Speaker 2>how it feels to me is that now it is

0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:51.040
<v Speaker 2>the rubber meets the road of what does it mean

0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:54.720
<v Speaker 2>to get your dream? And what does it mean when

0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.720
<v Speaker 2>your dream is a dream of an industry of the

0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:01.119
<v Speaker 2>past and now it is your dream in twenty twenty

0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:06.280
<v Speaker 2>five when as everything we're saying, technology and the way

0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:11.040
<v Speaker 2>the world has gone and capitalism has fundamentally altered that industry.

0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:14.680
<v Speaker 2>And to your question before yes and the second episode

0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:18.119
<v Speaker 2>Helen Hunt says to them, what's your carpool karaoke? You

0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:21.320
<v Speaker 2>need to expand the brand equity of Late Night, And

0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:27.040
<v Speaker 2>for us that was really speaking to this tremendous pressure

0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:31.639
<v Speaker 2>put on TV and movies and late night included now

0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:37.119
<v Speaker 2>to exist beyond just the product itself. Like there, it

0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:42.480
<v Speaker 2>feels like there is such pressure on these companies to

0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:46.960
<v Speaker 2>be valued as a tech company and maximize growth for

0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:51.040
<v Speaker 2>in profit for their shareholders that you can feel that

0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:54.159
<v Speaker 2>downlad pressure that again, it's not just enough to be

0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:57.640
<v Speaker 2>a good TV show. You do need to be a hit,

0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:00.040
<v Speaker 2>Like what are you what value are you bringing to

0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:01.679
<v Speaker 2>this technology platform?

0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:05.760
<v Speaker 1>You guys cast people who've I've found on TikTok, Right, So,

0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:08.280
<v Speaker 1>like I know about Robbie because I know so Robbie

0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:10.040
<v Speaker 1>Hoffman has a I'm not gonna give it away, but

0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:12.560
<v Speaker 1>like has a great role on this season. Jake Shane

0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:15.680
<v Speaker 1>great role on this season. These are two people who

0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:18.240
<v Speaker 1>I know from the Internet, which I think is really

0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:21.760
<v Speaker 1>interesting when we talk about like the positive effects of

0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:25.840
<v Speaker 1>the Internet on comedy. Yes, you also have this amazing

0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:30.600
<v Speaker 1>storyline where TikTok plays in in a very pivotal way

0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:35.200
<v Speaker 1>and I'm wondering, like, is being online a big part

0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:38.840
<v Speaker 1>of being in the writer's room. And then secondly, if

0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:41.119
<v Speaker 1>you can talk a little bit about the way in

0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:45.159
<v Speaker 1>which technology plays into Late Night and that storyline, it

0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:48.159
<v Speaker 1>is something that inevitably has to be considered as an

0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:50.879
<v Speaker 1>online medium, even though it exists on terrestrial television.

0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:53.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, totally. I mean, I think what you're hitting on

0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:57.840
<v Speaker 2>is exactly right, which is that we also want to

0:19:57.960 --> 0:20:02.560
<v Speaker 2>be conscious of the fact that we do consume the Internet,

0:20:02.600 --> 0:20:05.240
<v Speaker 2>and we do love the Internet, and there are good

0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:10.119
<v Speaker 2>things about it. And like you know, Meg Stalter who

0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:13.120
<v Speaker 2>plays Killa, we found her on Instagram, and like you said,

0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:17.760
<v Speaker 2>Jake Shane, Robbie Hoffman, all these people came to us

0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:21.400
<v Speaker 2>through that. And so again in my experience in comedy,

0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:26.800
<v Speaker 2>I have discovered some people that make me how laughing

0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:29.680
<v Speaker 2>more than anyone. You know. Chris Fleming is a comedian

0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:32.600
<v Speaker 2>who's special I produced a couple of years ago and

0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:34.800
<v Speaker 2>who I still work with, and I know of him

0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:36.920
<v Speaker 2>because I saw his stand up on the Internet and

0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:39.679
<v Speaker 2>I was like, this person is unbelievably funny to me.

0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:42.439
<v Speaker 2>And so it wouldn't be fair of us to just

0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:46.000
<v Speaker 2>make a season that's going like did the Internet ruin everything?

0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:49.600
<v Speaker 2>You know? Like that's that would be a very Pollyanna

0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:53.439
<v Speaker 2>take that isn't true. And so I think we also

0:20:53.480 --> 0:20:56.720
<v Speaker 2>this season are exploring, like are very at least for myself,

0:20:56.760 --> 0:20:59.720
<v Speaker 2>like my own conflicted feelings about it, because I get

0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:03.960
<v Speaker 2>a lot from the Internet. I discover new talent and voices,

0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:09.520
<v Speaker 2>and that's incredibly helpful, and yet the economy of attention

0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:14.000
<v Speaker 2>like it it pulls my attention in such a fierce,

0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:17.240
<v Speaker 2>troublesome way that is like scary to me.

0:21:17.720 --> 0:21:20.840
<v Speaker 1>Well, and it also feels like television isn't the gold

0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:25.359
<v Speaker 1>standard anymore, Like the gold standard is virality, which you know,

0:21:25.680 --> 0:21:27.679
<v Speaker 1>which is part of my next question. You know, you

0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:31.040
<v Speaker 1>have people like Evan ross Katz who the minute of

0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:34.879
<v Speaker 1>show airs, there's like the memification of whatever the best

0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:37.879
<v Speaker 1>lines on those shows were. And I wonder, because I

0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:42.399
<v Speaker 1>have you here, like, honestly, to what extent.

0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:44.480
<v Speaker 2>Do you write to the.

0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:46.680
<v Speaker 1>Clickability?

0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:53.360
<v Speaker 2>It's not possible. It must write what you mean, right

0:21:53.400 --> 0:22:00.240
<v Speaker 2>what Evan memes. It's really like it's crazy making you

0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:02.760
<v Speaker 2>think about it too much. You like really have to

0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:06.680
<v Speaker 2>try to tune it out and not think that way.

0:22:07.080 --> 0:22:09.760
<v Speaker 2>I also feel like one thing that the Internet is

0:22:09.840 --> 0:22:15.560
<v Speaker 2>really good about is authenticity and sniffing out things that

0:22:15.600 --> 0:22:18.760
<v Speaker 2>are inauthentic. And so I think if you right to

0:22:18.880 --> 0:22:21.480
<v Speaker 2>the meme, so to speak, or we were trying to

0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:26.120
<v Speaker 2>make something go viral. I think that you would smell

0:22:26.160 --> 0:22:29.480
<v Speaker 2>that and people would feel that, and then it doesn't

0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:32.840
<v Speaker 2>take off like That's that's one thing about the Internet

0:22:33.000 --> 0:22:35.439
<v Speaker 2>that I do really appreciate and love, Like there's an

0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:40.160
<v Speaker 2>unpredictability to it. Things take off and catch fire and

0:22:40.200 --> 0:22:43.639
<v Speaker 2>like hit some kind of like center of someone's brain

0:22:43.680 --> 0:22:46.640
<v Speaker 2>and you just don't know why, and you can't really

0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:48.240
<v Speaker 2>reverse engineer it.

0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:52.120
<v Speaker 1>It does kind of make you still believe that people

0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:54.760
<v Speaker 1>don't know what they want. And those are people who

0:22:54.760 --> 0:22:55.760
<v Speaker 1>are on the internet.

0:22:55.920 --> 0:22:58.760
<v Speaker 2>You could look at so many quote unquote hits of

0:22:58.800 --> 0:23:01.639
<v Speaker 2>the last few years, even like the Bear, And I

0:23:01.680 --> 0:23:05.719
<v Speaker 2>think that's the danger in having all this data and technology,

0:23:05.760 --> 0:23:11.119
<v Speaker 2>because the tech industry can be so specific and data

0:23:11.160 --> 0:23:13.680
<v Speaker 2>driven and go like, well, this is the exact point

0:23:13.720 --> 0:23:15.880
<v Speaker 2>at which someone turns this off, So that must mean

0:23:16.200 --> 0:23:19.080
<v Speaker 2>it's not good if this person you know, you don't know.

0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:22.520
<v Speaker 2>That's the thing that's really lovely about creating things is

0:23:22.600 --> 0:23:25.479
<v Speaker 2>you have to just trust the person creating it in

0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:28.399
<v Speaker 2>their brain and their heart. And and I think that

0:23:28.600 --> 0:23:32.280
<v Speaker 2>as we delve more into this tech world, it becomes

0:23:32.320 --> 0:23:35.840
<v Speaker 2>in danger of people thinking they can know better that

0:23:35.880 --> 0:23:39.160
<v Speaker 2>we can, like because tech does know better in a way.

0:23:39.200 --> 0:23:42.679
<v Speaker 2>We're all like, you know, little like lab rats, and

0:23:42.720 --> 0:23:45.120
<v Speaker 2>they know that when I see the like red dot

0:23:45.200 --> 0:23:47.119
<v Speaker 2>on my screen, I'm gonna click it because like it

0:23:47.200 --> 0:23:50.680
<v Speaker 2>activates my dopamine or whatever, and so that's really scary.

0:23:50.840 --> 0:23:54.879
<v Speaker 2>But like there's a creative aspect of an unknowability that

0:23:55.000 --> 0:23:56.240
<v Speaker 2>is really important.

0:23:56.440 --> 0:24:00.240
<v Speaker 1>This might be a huge leap, but like, in a way,

0:24:01.200 --> 0:24:04.720
<v Speaker 1>technology is a bit like humor to say, like the

0:24:04.880 --> 0:24:08.479
<v Speaker 1>very humorous person says I know better, right, Like Freud

0:24:08.560 --> 0:24:11.960
<v Speaker 1>says that, like humor is the triumph of the ego, right,

0:24:12.040 --> 0:24:14.760
<v Speaker 1>like it will protect me from the pain of my life,

0:24:15.359 --> 0:24:19.959
<v Speaker 1>right right, And then and then love says, no, you

0:24:20.000 --> 0:24:23.080
<v Speaker 1>can't use humor for everything, Like the triumph of your

0:24:23.080 --> 0:24:26.359
<v Speaker 1>life is actually like your humanity. And like I do

0:24:26.440 --> 0:24:29.960
<v Speaker 1>think that HACKS really is about the way in which

0:24:30.880 --> 0:24:33.840
<v Speaker 1>humor is a triumph, but it's also about how humor

0:24:33.920 --> 0:24:35.000
<v Speaker 1>can't do everything.

0:24:35.560 --> 0:24:39.080
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, totally well. And I think what you're pointing

0:24:39.119 --> 0:24:43.879
<v Speaker 2>out is exactly right, that there's something in humor and

0:24:43.920 --> 0:24:46.920
<v Speaker 2>I've certainly used it in my life to protect myself

0:24:46.960 --> 0:24:51.480
<v Speaker 2>from feeling things at times like humor puts you sometimes

0:24:51.560 --> 0:24:55.440
<v Speaker 2>at a distance because you're observing, you're not experiencing the thing.

0:24:56.040 --> 0:24:57.719
<v Speaker 2>And I think what you're pointing out is that it

0:24:57.800 --> 0:25:01.200
<v Speaker 2>is this, it's this desire for control and hacks. You're

0:25:01.240 --> 0:25:04.840
<v Speaker 2>exactly right. It is both about how comedy is so

0:25:04.880 --> 0:25:09.000
<v Speaker 2>important and can save us, and yet you also need

0:25:09.040 --> 0:25:12.680
<v Speaker 2>to feel the feelings and give into the unpredictability of

0:25:12.760 --> 0:25:16.560
<v Speaker 2>life because otherwise you're just trying to protect yourself. You're

0:25:16.640 --> 0:25:19.040
<v Speaker 2>ultimately trying to protect yourself from dying, which you can't.

0:25:19.280 --> 0:25:23.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I just I think that there's like there's hubris

0:25:23.160 --> 0:25:26.199
<v Speaker 1>on both sides. There's hubris on the sides of technology

0:25:26.200 --> 0:25:30.720
<v Speaker 1>companies who believe that they can outsmart and predict what

0:25:30.760 --> 0:25:33.800
<v Speaker 1>people want. And there's also hubris on the side of

0:25:33.840 --> 0:25:38.920
<v Speaker 1>the creative who like believes that their own creativity can

0:25:39.000 --> 0:25:40.800
<v Speaker 1>kind of trump all.

0:25:41.160 --> 0:25:45.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And we really tried to express through the Hell

0:25:45.920 --> 0:25:49.440
<v Speaker 2>and Hunk character this season, like we felt it would

0:25:49.440 --> 0:25:51.639
<v Speaker 2>be pat and not truthful if it was just like

0:25:51.960 --> 0:25:56.560
<v Speaker 2>the brave creatives against the capitalist monster executives. It's like

0:25:56.600 --> 0:25:59.680
<v Speaker 2>that's not interesting because that's not truthful either. Like, there

0:25:59.680 --> 0:26:02.560
<v Speaker 2>are great people on both sides of this trying to

0:26:02.720 --> 0:26:07.760
<v Speaker 2>navigate this intersection, and you're exactly right. It's like the

0:26:07.800 --> 0:26:09.919
<v Speaker 2>fact of the matter is, I can't tell you that

0:26:09.960 --> 0:26:12.600
<v Speaker 2>I don't like going on TikTok and watching people dance.

0:26:12.760 --> 0:26:18.960
<v Speaker 2>I do like there's something just visceral and human. I

0:26:19.000 --> 0:26:21.440
<v Speaker 2>don't know what it is, but like there's a reason

0:26:21.560 --> 0:26:24.240
<v Speaker 2>people love it. It taps into something.

0:26:34.600 --> 0:26:37.360
<v Speaker 1>After the break. Why Hacks writer and co creator Jen

0:26:37.400 --> 0:26:40.439
<v Speaker 1>Statsky is concerned about the effects of AGI on her

0:26:40.480 --> 0:26:55.040
<v Speaker 1>industry Stay with us. Paul Schrader is a guy who

0:26:55.080 --> 0:26:59.520
<v Speaker 1>said that chat GPT is something that could help ID eight.

0:27:00.359 --> 0:27:02.439
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure you were sort of following the ways in

0:27:02.480 --> 0:27:09.080
<v Speaker 1>which the strike addressed, you know, algorithmically driven creativity or

0:27:10.119 --> 0:27:15.280
<v Speaker 1>as we say, generative AI would affect the creativity of

0:27:15.320 --> 0:27:19.840
<v Speaker 1>the business. So my question is twofold, which is one like,

0:27:21.440 --> 0:27:25.480
<v Speaker 1>how did the WGA address this during and after the strikes?

0:27:25.600 --> 0:27:30.600
<v Speaker 1>And two can AI be funny?

0:27:33.920 --> 0:27:36.679
<v Speaker 2>My take on AI is really that quote that's like

0:27:36.800 --> 0:27:39.600
<v Speaker 2>I want AI to do my laundry and dishes so

0:27:39.640 --> 0:27:41.920
<v Speaker 2>that I can do art and writing, not for AI

0:27:42.040 --> 0:27:43.840
<v Speaker 2>to do my art and writing so that I can

0:27:43.880 --> 0:27:49.399
<v Speaker 2>do my laundry and dishes. I don't want AI to

0:27:49.760 --> 0:27:53.960
<v Speaker 2>come into the realm of creation, and it will inevitably

0:27:54.160 --> 0:27:57.000
<v Speaker 2>and it already has, so it doesn't matter what I want,

0:27:57.040 --> 0:28:00.479
<v Speaker 2>it's going to happen. But just speaking as a creative

0:28:00.480 --> 0:28:04.120
<v Speaker 2>person who has done this for I guess like fifteen

0:28:04.200 --> 0:28:09.320
<v Speaker 2>years now, I never loan for a machine to give

0:28:09.359 --> 0:28:11.359
<v Speaker 2>me any I do laan for a machine to give

0:28:11.400 --> 0:28:13.640
<v Speaker 2>an answer. In the worst parts of writing, you're like, God,

0:28:13.800 --> 0:28:17.600
<v Speaker 2>someone just tell me the answer. But it would to

0:28:17.840 --> 0:28:24.160
<v Speaker 2>me really make the process feel hollow. And the show

0:28:24.400 --> 0:28:28.240
<v Speaker 2>Hacks is very much so about the joy of creating

0:28:28.280 --> 0:28:33.320
<v Speaker 2>with someone else, and that process in many ways is

0:28:33.359 --> 0:28:36.960
<v Speaker 2>the reward, not the end result or the acclaim or

0:28:36.960 --> 0:28:40.440
<v Speaker 2>the rewards. And so if you take the joy out

0:28:40.480 --> 0:28:43.000
<v Speaker 2>of that process and the humanity out of the very

0:28:43.040 --> 0:28:46.360
<v Speaker 2>process of creating the thing, I just worry that it

0:28:46.400 --> 0:28:47.760
<v Speaker 2>feels very hollow.

0:28:48.400 --> 0:28:51.880
<v Speaker 1>So you are not tempted by G, as I like

0:28:51.920 --> 0:28:52.440
<v Speaker 1>to call her.

0:28:54.120 --> 0:28:58.280
<v Speaker 2>I am really not tempted by G in a way

0:28:58.280 --> 0:29:01.280
<v Speaker 2>that I will be the old man like screaming, get

0:29:01.280 --> 0:29:04.400
<v Speaker 2>off my lawn, like you know, the industry will pass

0:29:04.480 --> 0:29:07.360
<v Speaker 2>me by, and I'll be like Jen, you gotta use G,

0:29:07.960 --> 0:29:10.640
<v Speaker 2>you gotta gen you got Jen, you haven't worked in

0:29:10.680 --> 0:29:15.680
<v Speaker 2>fifteen years. You gotta use G. I just I don't know.

0:29:15.840 --> 0:29:17.719
<v Speaker 2>I mean, like, what is Paul Shrew What is his

0:29:17.880 --> 0:29:21.320
<v Speaker 2>example of how it could be useful? How can an idea?

0:29:21.920 --> 0:29:25.760
<v Speaker 1>I think it's idea generation, Like, oh, you know Hannah

0:29:25.840 --> 0:29:31.720
<v Speaker 1>and deb are in Vegas. What is something that they

0:29:31.760 --> 0:29:35.080
<v Speaker 1>would do in Vegas that could be really fun? So

0:29:35.240 --> 0:29:37.120
<v Speaker 1>in this way, I don't want to be again like

0:29:37.200 --> 0:29:38.960
<v Speaker 1>Pollyanna a butt and be like no, I would never

0:29:38.960 --> 0:29:41.480
<v Speaker 1>be cause like in some ways it's like, okay.

0:29:41.200 --> 0:29:43.600
<v Speaker 2>When we write that. There's an episode this season where

0:29:43.640 --> 0:29:45.680
<v Speaker 2>Deborneva go back to my face.

0:29:45.760 --> 0:29:48.320
<v Speaker 1>I call her hand. I'm sorry, Deborneva, Hannah's Hannah and

0:29:48.440 --> 0:29:48.960
<v Speaker 1>I'll tell you what.

0:29:49.040 --> 0:29:51.200
<v Speaker 2>You know who does that all the time? Is Gene Smart?

0:29:51.520 --> 0:29:55.400
<v Speaker 2>In scene she'll be like Hannah, and I'm like, there

0:29:55.480 --> 0:29:57.400
<v Speaker 2>is an argument to be made, you know. When we

0:29:57.440 --> 0:30:01.080
<v Speaker 2>wrote that episode, of course we're googling, like Las Vegas

0:30:01.120 --> 0:30:03.760
<v Speaker 2>things to do. It's not like I don't use the

0:30:03.760 --> 0:30:07.040
<v Speaker 2>Internet in my writing. So I guess one might say,

0:30:08.360 --> 0:30:10.400
<v Speaker 2>how different is it? Then it's just.

0:30:10.360 --> 0:30:11.680
<v Speaker 1>Google lowercase G.

0:30:12.160 --> 0:30:16.240
<v Speaker 2>I use lower CASEG, not the big G. Yeah, but

0:30:16.360 --> 0:30:18.880
<v Speaker 2>one could argue like, well, what's the difference about using

0:30:18.960 --> 0:30:21.200
<v Speaker 2>the big G. You're already like using the internet to

0:30:21.600 --> 0:30:26.560
<v Speaker 2>provide you with answers about that. What is the difference?

0:30:26.760 --> 0:30:29.760
<v Speaker 2>I just it's to me, it's such a slippery slope,

0:30:30.080 --> 0:30:34.480
<v Speaker 2>and I think I get really scared because I don't

0:30:34.520 --> 0:30:37.800
<v Speaker 2>think humans will put on the guardrails to not let

0:30:37.800 --> 0:30:38.800
<v Speaker 2>it get out of control.

0:30:39.360 --> 0:30:45.760
<v Speaker 1>So conversely, there's the issue of training algorithms on pre

0:30:45.840 --> 0:30:52.440
<v Speaker 1>existing scripts. Yeah, and training algorithms on now subtitles, right,

0:30:52.600 --> 0:30:57.760
<v Speaker 1>so they can actually collect subtitles from shows and movies

0:30:58.120 --> 0:31:02.240
<v Speaker 1>and use those subtitles to train algorithms that then will

0:31:02.280 --> 0:31:07.640
<v Speaker 1>do what I guess, build better models. I would imagine

0:31:07.640 --> 0:31:09.840
<v Speaker 1>it's sort of boring for me to even ask your

0:31:09.880 --> 0:31:13.400
<v Speaker 1>opinion on that. I just wonder as a member of

0:31:13.440 --> 0:31:18.320
<v Speaker 1>the WGA, as far as moving forward post strike is concerned, like,

0:31:18.400 --> 0:31:21.760
<v Speaker 1>can you talk a little bit about what's been going

0:31:21.800 --> 0:31:23.560
<v Speaker 1>on and the conversations that have been had.

0:31:24.560 --> 0:31:26.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, I think the language that we were

0:31:27.240 --> 0:31:31.040
<v Speaker 2>advocating for was that like a script. This is funny,

0:31:31.080 --> 0:31:33.360
<v Speaker 2>It's like a basically like a script needed to be

0:31:33.400 --> 0:31:36.480
<v Speaker 2>written by a human being. That was like the language

0:31:36.560 --> 0:31:38.120
<v Speaker 2>being put in the contract.

0:31:38.240 --> 0:31:39.320
<v Speaker 1>Those are your guardrails.

0:31:39.520 --> 0:31:43.000
<v Speaker 2>Those are the guardrails. Yeah, and I actually am a

0:31:43.200 --> 0:31:47.240
<v Speaker 2>Writer's Guild caption and well there and here's here's the

0:31:47.240 --> 0:31:50.640
<v Speaker 2>problem here. I missed the meeting last night, so can

0:31:50.680 --> 0:31:55.280
<v Speaker 2>you imagine how much delicious hot off the press information

0:31:55.440 --> 0:31:59.840
<v Speaker 2>for you? But I'm a delinquent union rep. But it's

0:32:00.000 --> 0:32:02.520
<v Speaker 2>it seems crazy to me that companies would be able

0:32:02.560 --> 0:32:07.160
<v Speaker 2>to take this tremendous amount of material owned by the studios,

0:32:07.200 --> 0:32:09.520
<v Speaker 2>owned by the networks and just use it for their

0:32:09.560 --> 0:32:14.280
<v Speaker 2>own profit. And there has to be some I don't

0:32:14.320 --> 0:32:17.000
<v Speaker 2>know why. I have no idea. I think what's really

0:32:17.000 --> 0:32:19.240
<v Speaker 2>scary is I have no idea where the studios and

0:32:19.280 --> 0:32:22.080
<v Speaker 2>the networks and companies are at with it in terms

0:32:22.120 --> 0:32:24.640
<v Speaker 2>of it seems like the type of thing that they

0:32:24.680 --> 0:32:28.040
<v Speaker 2>would so viciously go after of like you're using our

0:32:28.080 --> 0:32:32.920
<v Speaker 2>copywritten material. But I also think they probably see the

0:32:32.920 --> 0:32:35.200
<v Speaker 2>writing on the wall that they're all going to have

0:32:35.400 --> 0:32:40.600
<v Speaker 2>to get into the AI space themselves. So I have

0:32:40.720 --> 0:32:43.240
<v Speaker 2>no idea, to be honest, like what the higher level

0:32:43.280 --> 0:32:48.840
<v Speaker 2>conversations are. But as a creative, it seems insane to

0:32:48.920 --> 0:32:52.400
<v Speaker 2>me that you can't just take a show and throw

0:32:52.400 --> 0:32:55.440
<v Speaker 2>it up on your YouTube channel, like they go after

0:32:55.520 --> 0:32:59.440
<v Speaker 2>that so viciously to take down copyright materials. So to me,

0:32:59.600 --> 0:33:03.479
<v Speaker 2>this feeling is very similar, and I think there is

0:33:03.520 --> 0:33:05.479
<v Speaker 2>like you know, I believe Shonda Rhimes and some other

0:33:05.560 --> 0:33:08.400
<v Speaker 2>people there's like correct me on that if I'm wrong,

0:33:08.400 --> 0:33:11.720
<v Speaker 2>But I believe some artists are coming together to like

0:33:11.840 --> 0:33:13.560
<v Speaker 2>pursue legal action about it.

0:33:13.760 --> 0:33:14.080
<v Speaker 1>They are.

0:33:14.160 --> 0:33:15.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, absolutely.

0:33:15.840 --> 0:33:19.560
<v Speaker 1>And so to your point about like creativity and the

0:33:19.600 --> 0:33:24.960
<v Speaker 1>purpose of creating art, especially TV being the collaboration not

0:33:25.240 --> 0:33:29.680
<v Speaker 1>actually the product, I think that's where something like chat

0:33:29.720 --> 0:33:32.480
<v Speaker 1>GPT gets you in a little bit of trouble, even

0:33:32.480 --> 0:33:36.360
<v Speaker 1>if you're someone who's like a solo screenwriter, that there

0:33:36.480 --> 0:33:39.160
<v Speaker 1>has to be at a certain point a level of

0:33:40.320 --> 0:33:44.080
<v Speaker 1>you know, sort of interaction and toiling. What I think

0:33:44.200 --> 0:33:49.680
<v Speaker 1>is problematic about the intersection between artificial intelligence and creativity

0:33:50.080 --> 0:33:53.840
<v Speaker 1>is that it becomes a little frictionless, and that is

0:33:53.880 --> 0:33:55.360
<v Speaker 1>where things start getting boring.

0:33:55.960 --> 0:33:59.040
<v Speaker 2>Yes, it's a good it's a very good point. And

0:33:59.080 --> 0:34:01.680
<v Speaker 2>if someone was asking this, they were talking to me

0:34:01.680 --> 0:34:05.360
<v Speaker 2>about like season four of US show, it's really easy

0:34:05.400 --> 0:34:10.240
<v Speaker 2>for a show to get like complacent and not grow

0:34:10.320 --> 0:34:12.840
<v Speaker 2>or not or just feel stagnant. And one thing I

0:34:12.840 --> 0:34:15.600
<v Speaker 2>said was that I think that it's something we really

0:34:15.640 --> 0:34:18.400
<v Speaker 2>have to our advantages, that there are three creators and

0:34:18.440 --> 0:34:21.680
<v Speaker 2>we are constantly checking each other and being like have

0:34:21.760 --> 0:34:24.440
<v Speaker 2>we done that before? Is that? Could that be better?

0:34:24.480 --> 0:34:27.759
<v Speaker 2>Like there is we are in a constant dialogue about it,

0:34:28.120 --> 0:34:30.439
<v Speaker 2>and there is toiling there, and there is friction there,

0:34:30.600 --> 0:34:33.760
<v Speaker 2>and it makes it better. And exactly to your point,

0:34:34.280 --> 0:34:36.360
<v Speaker 2>it will be frictionless if you just go to the

0:34:36.880 --> 0:34:40.560
<v Speaker 2>TG and say what should Deborahn have a fight about

0:34:40.560 --> 0:34:42.640
<v Speaker 2>this episode and it gives you the answer and you

0:34:42.680 --> 0:34:44.359
<v Speaker 2>go okay.

0:34:44.480 --> 0:34:45.000
<v Speaker 1>Like that.

0:34:45.000 --> 0:34:50.439
<v Speaker 2>That's that is exactly. It's like sad because so much

0:34:50.440 --> 0:34:53.480
<v Speaker 2>of this is like if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

0:34:53.640 --> 0:34:56.239
<v Speaker 2>Like there is an element of that to storytelling and

0:34:56.360 --> 0:34:59.279
<v Speaker 2>Hollywood that I feel we're in an era of like

0:34:59.760 --> 0:35:02.680
<v Speaker 2>we fix something that wasn't really broken.

0:35:03.120 --> 0:35:06.880
<v Speaker 1>You know what it is? It's that in a technological age,

0:35:07.719 --> 0:35:12.680
<v Speaker 1>optimization is the point, yes, And if optimization is the point,

0:35:13.360 --> 0:35:16.239
<v Speaker 1>then everything is pushed into the tent of optimization.

0:35:16.680 --> 0:35:20.399
<v Speaker 2>That's exactly it. Technology tells us we must optimize our

0:35:20.440 --> 0:35:25.360
<v Speaker 2>life in every single way, and you just can't optimize creativity.

0:35:25.400 --> 0:35:29.160
<v Speaker 2>You can't go what is the most efficient, easiest, best

0:35:29.200 --> 0:35:32.239
<v Speaker 2>way to make art. You just can't like that. It's

0:35:32.680 --> 0:35:36.560
<v Speaker 2>it's contrary to the point of it. And so I

0:35:36.600 --> 0:35:39.879
<v Speaker 2>think that's exactly the thing that worries me is that

0:35:40.120 --> 0:35:44.400
<v Speaker 2>if we go, if we follow this to the logical extension,

0:35:44.480 --> 0:35:47.680
<v Speaker 2>does everything go to the point of optimization? Does every

0:35:47.719 --> 0:35:50.440
<v Speaker 2>show get put through this filter of but what will

0:35:50.480 --> 0:35:52.960
<v Speaker 2>get the most eyeballs on? What will get the most subscribers?

0:35:53.000 --> 0:35:55.880
<v Speaker 2>Because we are trying to optimize profit for the company,

0:35:55.960 --> 0:35:57.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, like who is stopping that?

0:35:58.480 --> 0:36:00.680
<v Speaker 1>I think we all are stopping it. I think humor

0:36:00.719 --> 0:36:02.600
<v Speaker 1>sort of acts as this way to say, look, this

0:36:02.680 --> 0:36:05.640
<v Speaker 1>can't affect me that much. And I think why humor

0:36:05.680 --> 0:36:10.239
<v Speaker 1>has such a lasting influence on society and culture is that,

0:36:10.320 --> 0:36:13.640
<v Speaker 1>like we get to make jokes about optimization. That is

0:36:13.640 --> 0:36:15.840
<v Speaker 1>where humor plays in, and that's where you get to

0:36:15.880 --> 0:36:19.919
<v Speaker 1>tell people, guys, this is weird. Like I don't need

0:36:19.960 --> 0:36:24.440
<v Speaker 1>to optimize my steps. I don't need to optimize my sleep.

0:36:24.800 --> 0:36:29.799
<v Speaker 1>People have been been done sleeping, you know, like we figured.

0:36:29.560 --> 0:36:33.040
<v Speaker 2>Out sleeping for the most We're like we're good on

0:36:33.200 --> 0:36:36.520
<v Speaker 2>sleeping totally. Yes, Yeah, that's it. That is a that

0:36:36.640 --> 0:36:40.399
<v Speaker 2>is a optimistic way to look at it that humor. Yes,

0:36:40.480 --> 0:36:43.319
<v Speaker 2>it detaches you a bit, but in the detachment you

0:36:43.360 --> 0:36:46.000
<v Speaker 2>can point out the absurdity of it in a way

0:36:46.000 --> 0:36:48.840
<v Speaker 2>that perhaps makes people think differently about it and maybe

0:36:48.880 --> 0:36:49.760
<v Speaker 2>behave differently.

0:36:50.120 --> 0:36:54.720
<v Speaker 1>And I think that's where Ava ultimately gets to play

0:36:54.800 --> 0:36:58.480
<v Speaker 1>as a character on Hacks, where it's like, this is

0:36:58.520 --> 0:37:03.520
<v Speaker 1>someone who is deeply feeling but also is like deeply

0:37:03.600 --> 0:37:08.040
<v Speaker 1>disturbed by the way things are, where Deborah is more like,

0:37:08.480 --> 0:37:13.920
<v Speaker 1>this is reality and I still love being funny, you know. Yeah, yes,

0:37:14.239 --> 0:37:17.719
<v Speaker 1>And that's where I think they really but reads.

0:37:17.800 --> 0:37:20.239
<v Speaker 2>That's where they but but that's where they also make

0:37:20.320 --> 0:37:24.560
<v Speaker 2>each other better, because it's a Ava sees things in

0:37:24.600 --> 0:37:26.799
<v Speaker 2>this way and is disturbed by it and says like, well,

0:37:26.800 --> 0:37:28.879
<v Speaker 2>what if it could be better? And Deborah says, but yes,

0:37:28.920 --> 0:37:30.680
<v Speaker 2>but we still have to do the work. So let's

0:37:30.719 --> 0:37:32.080
<v Speaker 2>figure out a way to do the work.

0:37:34.400 --> 0:37:35.680
<v Speaker 1>Jen, I really appreciate it.

0:37:35.719 --> 0:37:37.920
<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh, thank you. It's such so lovely to

0:37:37.960 --> 0:37:38.360
<v Speaker 2>talk to you.

0:37:48.840 --> 0:37:51.440
<v Speaker 1>That's it for this week for tech stuff. I'm caar Price.

0:37:51.920 --> 0:37:55.320
<v Speaker 1>This episode was produced by Eliza Dennis and Adriana Tapia.

0:37:55.760 --> 0:37:58.799
<v Speaker 1>It was executive produced by me Oswa Washian and Kate

0:37:58.840 --> 0:38:03.440
<v Speaker 1>Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norvell for iHeart Podcast. Biheed

0:38:03.480 --> 0:38:06.360
<v Speaker 1>Fraser is our engineer and Jack Insley mixed this episode,

0:38:06.680 --> 0:38:09.440
<v Speaker 1>and Kyle Murdoch wrote our theme song. Join us on

0:38:09.520 --> 0:38:11.600
<v Speaker 1>Friday for the Week in tech Oz and I will

0:38:11.640 --> 0:38:13.880
<v Speaker 1>run through all those tech headlines you may have missed.

0:38:14.360 --> 0:38:16.920
<v Speaker 1>Please rate, review, and reach out to us at tech

0:38:16.960 --> 0:38:19.280
<v Speaker 1>Stuff Podcast at gmail dot com.

0:38:19.320 --> 0:38:20.160
<v Speaker 2>We want to hear from you.