1 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to tech Stuff. This is the story. Each week 2 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: on Wednesdays, we bring you an in depth interview with 3 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 1: someone who has a front row seat to the most 4 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: fascinating things happening in and around tech today. We are 5 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: joined by Jen Statsky, one of the writers and creators 6 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: of the hit MAC series Hacks. Jen got her start 7 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,160 Speaker 1: as a writer on Late Night with Jimmy Fallon. Then 8 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,159 Speaker 1: she joined the writer's room for some of TV's biggest comedies, 9 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 1: including Parks and Recreation, The Good Place, and the web 10 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 1: series turned comedy Central sitcom broad City That's the cult 11 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: favorite from Abby Jacobson an Alama Lazer. Then, back in 12 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, she and her co creators Lucianello and Paul w. 13 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: Downs pitched Max, the show about two comedians of very 14 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: different generations navigating a changing industry. That show is Hacks, 15 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,679 Speaker 1: a runaway success since it premiered in twenty twenty one. 16 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: Season four of Hacks is out now and I had 17 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: the great pleasure of sitting down with Jen to pick 18 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 1: her brain about the changing entertainment industry and how things 19 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: like smartphones and chat GPT or g as I like 20 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: to call her, are changing the game for writers Hi, Jen, 21 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:21,559 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here. 22 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 2: Hi Kara, thanks for having me. 23 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: I mean, we're going to get into what the show 24 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: is about this season and how good it is, but 25 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: I want to talk to you more as like Jen 26 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 1: and your experience early on as a comedian and how 27 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: technology has played into your career as a comedian. 28 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. 29 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: Broad City was a show that was started on YouTube, right, Yeah, yeah, 30 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: you were discovered as a comic for late night on Twitter. 31 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 2: That's right. 32 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: You can't talk that much shit about. 33 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 2: Technology, no, no, no, I'd be pulling up the ladder 34 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 2: behind me if I went off on how technology is 35 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 2: bad and bad for creative yet. 36 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: No. 37 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 2: I mean, I think my rise in television is a 38 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 2: very interesting like decade because my first writing job at 39 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 2: Latina and Jimmy Fallon came about because it was twenty 40 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 2: eleven and it was the time when people were writing 41 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 2: jokes on Twitter, and that was like a big way 42 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 2: that people were getting discovered. And that is actually something 43 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 2: that I loved about it. It was very much so 44 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 2: like the democratization of joke writing that like anybody could 45 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 2: write a funny joke and write a bunch of funny 46 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 2: jokes and then someone who worked in Hollywood and TV 47 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 2: could see it and be like, oh, this person might 48 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 2: be really good at this professionally. And yes, Brad City 49 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 2: was always we still call it a web series. 50 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, it felt like web series when it was on 51 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: Comedy Central. Election. Yeah, I mean that in a very possible. 52 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:58,959 Speaker 2: Way too. Yeah, like it it speaks to how technology 53 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 2: and the internet can kind of go around institutions in 54 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 2: a way that is helpful, like abing Alana, we're doing 55 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 2: upright citizens Trigade Theater in New York at the time, 56 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 2: which is where I met them and where Paul Lucci 57 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 2: and we all met. But they weren't having and they've 58 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 2: spoken in this they weren't having the success in the 59 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 2: system that they kind of wish they had had. They 60 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 2: weren't getting on a Harald team, which was like the 61 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 2: house team that performed every week. They weren't kind of 62 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:28,519 Speaker 2: one of the prominent people in UCB. But they found 63 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 2: each other and they had this unique chemistry and they said, like, 64 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 2: why don't we just make something? And so that's why 65 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 2: they did it. They started as a web series, and 66 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 2: what's cool is even though it was a web series, 67 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 2: they treated it as important as if it was a 68 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 2: show and they believed it could be great, and that's 69 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 2: why they said, like, hey, we want to ask Gamy 70 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 2: Polar to be in this episode. And some people probably 71 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 2: would have been like, oh, we can't ask Gamy Polar 72 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 2: to be in our like little web series, you know. 73 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 2: And she did it, and she loved it, and she said, hey, 74 00:03:57,440 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 2: I want to produce this, and that's like what led 75 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 2: to it getting on television. But it started as a 76 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 2: web series because the traditional path wasn't necessarily working, so 77 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 2: they had to do it for themselves. 78 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: I mean, and you make a show that is very 79 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: much institutionally back to now. But I do feel like 80 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: there is a return to independent television making because we're 81 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 1: in a similar place again where like institutions are failing television. 82 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 1: They're not failing all television, but institutions are failing a 83 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: lot of people who want to be creators, who I 84 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: think deserve to be creators. And there seems to be 85 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: this return to this idea that like there shouldn't really 86 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: be such a barrier to entry for getting people to 87 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: watch things. And so now that this fifteen year span 88 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: has gone by where places like Twitter and YouTube really 89 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: were like foundational for indie comedy. Do you feel as though, 90 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: as someone who is still very much like involved in 91 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: indie comedy, that this might be a place again where 92 00:04:58,240 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: people can thrive. 93 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I hope. So. I think the thing 94 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 2: that's scary is there's a little bit of the pipeline 95 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 2: that has been disrupted. Like when I came up, the 96 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 2: existence of a network like Comedy Central was so important 97 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 2: and wonderful that they were doing original shows because it 98 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 2: allowed something like brad City, which started as a web series, 99 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 2: to be greenlit at a very low cost and a 100 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 2: very hey we're going to give these two women who 101 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 2: are so funny and talented but have never done anything, 102 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 2: We're going to give them a shot. And it was 103 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 2: relatively low stakes, I think, you know. And now, one 104 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 2: thing that I find to be scary is that for 105 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 2: the barrier to entry, like you're saying for television, it's 106 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 2: really high to go to one of these streamers, to 107 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:49,679 Speaker 2: go to one of these networks and say, hey, here's 108 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 2: this idea, please give us the money to make it. 109 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 2: It feels like there is an incredible amount of pressure 110 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 2: on it to be successful. Like that's really hard, especially 111 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 2: in comedy drama is hard to it's hard to get 112 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 2: any show picked up, but like comedy that exists in 113 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 2: that kind of Comedy Central version of a Workaholics Abroad CEAO, 114 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 2: kind of like down and dirty new voices that you've 115 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,840 Speaker 2: never heard before that are getting their chance at a platform. 116 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 2: It's now really hard I think for people on the 117 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 2: business side to take a risk on those people, or 118 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 2: at least it's harder because there's so much pressure on 119 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 2: shows to be successful right out the gate because of 120 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 2: this streaming model. There was a guy, an executive at 121 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 2: a streamer. He's no longer there. We had a lunch 122 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 2: and I was like, what are you guys like looking 123 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 2: for in comedy and he was like, honestly, hits And 124 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 2: I was like, sure, yeah, great, But I think he 125 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,559 Speaker 2: was being truthful in that, like he's like, it's really hard, 126 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 2: I think to get places to invest into a show 127 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 2: if it isn't immediately drawing eyeballs because there's such pressure 128 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 2: to keep subscribers, and it's like, okay, get rid of it. 129 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 2: Do another one, you know, which is to. 130 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: Say, how the hell do you know what's going to 131 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: be a hit? I mean, I just that as a 132 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: model for how to pick up TV when you think 133 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: about Hacks, which maybe on its face a show that 134 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: is sort of invested in telling the stories of Joan 135 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: Rivers and Philis Diller and Elaine mend Yeah. 136 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 2: But it was like when we pitched, it was like 137 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 2: two women talking. I don't know, I'm not so sure 138 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 2: about this. 139 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: And yet you know it's really worked. So yeah, I mean, 140 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: I just think it's to me, it's riskier to make 141 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: your bets on just like the fact that something's gonna 142 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: be a hit, than to make your bets on something 143 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: that you like, right. 144 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 2: But I think it's relevant to what you guys talk 145 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 2: about in the sense that I do think the influence 146 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 2: of tech and streaming becoming the dominant way people consume 147 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 2: television kind of has led us to that place, even 148 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 2: more so than the old model of broadcast TV or 149 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 2: or it's like show but people buy a cable. But 150 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 2: you know, I don't know. I think that it's relevant 151 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 2: because it's a result of technology coming in and disrupting 152 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 2: things well. 153 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: And also, nobody who worked in television on the creator 154 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: side asked for the business to become a technology business, 155 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: which it now is. I mean, I always say that, 156 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: like Netflix is Regina George and all of the other 157 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: streamers are like Caddy Herron and Amanda Sayfreed, like in 158 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: the sense of there is one streamer and then there's 159 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 1: YouTube and there's TikTok, and in that way, it's not 160 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: the TV business anymore. It's not the movie business anymore. 161 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: It's the Netflix business. And then you have a video 162 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: platform and a social media platform that like dictate the 163 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: whole business. 164 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 2: Like they all, whether they needed to or not, chase 165 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 2: Netflix off this cliff. Netflix is the king of the castle, 166 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 2: and everybody else's is like trying to keep up. And 167 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 2: it is really interesting to be on the creative side 168 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 2: of it. Like running a show, you're on both the 169 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 2: creative and business side of it, obviously more so the creative. 170 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 2: But I see a lot of pain within the creative 171 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 2: community because no one asked for it to become a 172 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 2: tech business. It's fundamentally changed everything, and yet people still 173 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 2: came out and have this dream of working in a 174 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 2: Hollywood that doesn't really exist anymore. 175 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: After the break. More from Jenstatski, co creator and writer 176 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: of the hit show Hacks, stay with us. I want 177 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 1: to go into Hacks a little bit because Hacks on 178 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: HBO Max, which isn't Netflix. 179 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 2: Which which isn't even HBO Max. I believe it's just MAXX. 180 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: Sorry, it's Max. It's Max with the black background. At 181 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: least it's Matt Black. I don't know, it's not. 182 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 2: It's it's kind of like silver machine to it, Like 183 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,079 Speaker 2: it does have its a Sheene, not to be confused 184 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 2: with Sheen, where I buy a lot of my clothes. 185 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: So with Netflix, there seems to be no problem from 186 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: the top to the bottom to say, look, guys, people 187 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: are watching other stuff while they're watching your shows, Like, 188 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: you better start getting your act together, because people are 189 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: watching YouTube and tiktoks about your shows while they're watching 190 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 1: your shows, Like there better be an explosion in the 191 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: first minute. Somebody better be moving to Paris in the 192 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: first ten seconds of your show in order for people 193 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: to keep watching. Like, as a creator, how much are 194 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: you considering the various forms of technology that are happening 195 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 1: simultaneously while anybody is watching hacks? 196 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it's a really good question. I mean, the 197 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 2: truth is is that you're both very aware of it 198 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 2: and worried about it, but also trying to at least 199 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 2: in our experience, quiet that noise and not let it 200 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 2: interfere with the creative process. No one asked for Hollywood 201 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 2: to be changed into tech business. We are still trying 202 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 2: to create shows in the same way that we used to, 203 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 2: and it's a very interesting conversation. There's you know, some 204 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 2: reports that Netflix has asked people to write dialogue in 205 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 2: a way where the characters are out loud speaking I'm 206 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 2: going to go to the store, and you know, saying 207 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,199 Speaker 2: what they're doing, so that a viewer, if they're on 208 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 2: their phone, can also just be hearing that and absorbing 209 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 2: it as a second screen experience. Now, I find this 210 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 2: topic fascinating because never in a million years has anyone 211 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 2: come to us spoken of that. Like the reason I 212 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:04,959 Speaker 2: love of being at HBO, Slash Max is Casey Boys 213 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 2: and Sarahbbry and everybody. It still very much embodies what 214 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 2: I think people think about HBO and the heyday of 215 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 2: like Sopranos, where it's like very creator first. Like the 216 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 2: idea that they would come to us and talk to 217 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:19,719 Speaker 2: us about a second screen experience just I can't imagine it. 218 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 2: And as far as other streamers, I have read the 219 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 2: articles and I have heard anecdotal stories about it, but 220 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 2: I've yet to hear any like direct like, yes, this 221 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 2: happened to me. They said, please write dialogue in this way. 222 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 2: So I'm very curious if it's truly like a directive 223 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 2: or is it merely bad dialogue that slips through the 224 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 2: cracks and then people are retrofitting like, oh, this must 225 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 2: be what's happening because sometimes that, you know. So I 226 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 2: write by a dialogue all the time, and then as 227 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 2: I rewrite, I'm like, oh, no, how about do it 228 00:12:55,280 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 2: how a human speaks? St like, So it's possible because 229 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 2: I and they would never, of course cop to it 230 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 2: if a streamer was telling people to do that. I 231 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 2: did anecdotally hear this, and this is true because it 232 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 2: came from someone who said it happened to them. That 233 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 2: there was a process of they were making a show 234 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 2: and they were reviewing the pilot. They were doing notes 235 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 2: for the pilot, and the streamer said, Hey, in this 236 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 2: dinner scene, could someone order ice cream? And like they 237 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 2: were like, you're they're already a dinner, Like, they're at 238 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 2: the table, there's food. Could just they could there be 239 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 2: ice cream or someone order ice cream or there be 240 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 2: I screaming, screaming The person was like why, and they 241 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 2: were like, from our research, if there's a dessert in 242 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 2: the first ten minutes, people tend to keep watching. And 243 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 2: so for me, yeah, I love dessert. 244 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: I wish there was a cake in the beginning of 245 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,199 Speaker 1: The Sopranos. I would have actually the wire, maybe I 246 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 1: would have finished. 247 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 2: The Yeah, in adolescence, he should be in the holding 248 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 2: room eating a sheet cake. But that is a story 249 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 2: that I did hear that I know to be which 250 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 2: is crazy and hacks very much. So we have an 251 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 2: episode this season that delves into this very problem. Is 252 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:12,079 Speaker 2: that as Hollywood becomes more of a technology based industry, 253 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 2: we will get this tremendous amount of data about how 254 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 2: people consume TV and what they respond to. And it's 255 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 2: really tricky because if you're running Netflix, if you're running Amazon, 256 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 2: if you're running one of these streamers, it is your 257 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 2: job to just keep people on your platform and people 258 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 2: watching and people subscribing. So, from the purely business side 259 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 2: of it, if you know that ice cream keeps people watching, 260 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 2: don't you have some responsibility to your shareholders to be like, 261 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 2: let's get some more ice cream in there. 262 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: Well, and that looking at the not even the viewer, 263 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: but looking at the product as data as like a 264 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: data set I think is really interesting, and that is 265 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: something when Broad City was on YouTube, viewers mattered. I 266 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: think viewership always mattered on YouTube of like how many 267 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: views does this have? But this idea that like each 268 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: little point of connection that a viewer has to a 269 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: product that is coming out of this technology company is 270 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: now of such importance, where like I just don't think 271 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: there was like this sense of datatization of both content 272 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: and viewership up until I don't know, ten years ago. 273 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: And that's I don't know. I'm not saying anything new 274 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: in that regard, but I do think I have some 275 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: empathy for people who work for a technology company versus 276 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: people who work for a studio. You know, You're right, 277 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: It's like there was always and I used to think 278 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: about this all the time, Like I did punch Up 279 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: on a friend's studio movie, and so I was like 280 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: working on this like kind of big budget comedy, and 281 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: I remember being at some of the test screenings, like 282 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: studios have always done test screenings and had responses, and 283 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: even that I remember being like. 284 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 2: I don't know, like how much of this is good 285 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 2: or not? To go in and find a bunch of 286 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 2: people in a mall in Las Vegas, ask them to 287 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 2: come see this movie and really change the movie based 288 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 2: on their responses. So there's always been a level of 289 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 2: gathering data and retrofitting the product to it, which is 290 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 2: the very difficulty of making movies and TV being both 291 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 2: art and commerce. But it's like it's gone so much 292 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 2: further with technology, Like you're saying, like it's like on 293 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 2: steroids now, because it's every single inflection point, it's, oh, 294 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 2: this is when they turn it off, this is when 295 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 2: they stop watching, this is what they rewatch over and over, 296 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 2: and so there's just all this data that is useful 297 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 2: to these companies, of course, and it's not so insiduous 298 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 2: that they're coming to us and saying like, hey, this 299 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 2: is how we want you to make this show. But 300 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 2: it's not hard to imagine a world. 301 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: Where it is I watch this season of Hacks, which 302 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: I think is really great. I'm not going to endorse it. 303 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: I was not paid to endorse it. I just want 304 00:16:59,200 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: to say that I. 305 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 2: Know, well, will you if I pay you, will you 306 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 2: endorse it? 307 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 1: Well, I'll endorse it right here. And there's absolutely no 308 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: bitcoin exchange. There's a terriff on the endorsement. Actually, but 309 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:13,719 Speaker 1: the season does deal with this idea of art and commerce. 310 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: In fact, there's a line I think that is said 311 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: by Helen Hunt that's like, what is your carpool karaoke? 312 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 1: So from your point of view as a show, and 313 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: her like, what is this season about? And how does 314 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: a question like that fit into what the season is about? 315 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 2: The best way I can describe it is season three, 316 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 2: we were focusing on Deborah going after her dream job 317 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 2: with underline under dream, and this season you get your 318 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 2: dream job and the word underlined his job. And that's like, 319 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 2: how it feels to me is that now it is 320 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 2: the rubber meets the road of what does it mean 321 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 2: to get your dream? And what does it mean when 322 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 2: your dream is a dream of an industry of the 323 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 2: past and now it is your dream in twenty twenty 324 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 2: five when as everything we're saying, technology and the way 325 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 2: the world has gone and capitalism has fundamentally altered that industry. 326 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 2: And to your question before yes and the second episode 327 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 2: Helen Hunt says to them, what's your carpool karaoke? You 328 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 2: need to expand the brand equity of Late Night, And 329 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 2: for us that was really speaking to this tremendous pressure 330 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 2: put on TV and movies and late night included now 331 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 2: to exist beyond just the product itself. Like there, it 332 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 2: feels like there is such pressure on these companies to 333 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 2: be valued as a tech company and maximize growth for 334 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 2: in profit for their shareholders that you can feel that 335 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 2: downlad pressure that again, it's not just enough to be 336 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 2: a good TV show. You do need to be a hit, 337 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:00,040 Speaker 2: Like what are you what value are you bringing to 338 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:01,679 Speaker 2: this technology platform? 339 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: You guys cast people who've I've found on TikTok, Right, So, 340 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: like I know about Robbie because I know so Robbie 341 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: Hoffman has a I'm not gonna give it away, but 342 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: like has a great role on this season. Jake Shane 343 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 1: great role on this season. These are two people who 344 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: I know from the Internet, which I think is really 345 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: interesting when we talk about like the positive effects of 346 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: the Internet on comedy. Yes, you also have this amazing 347 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: storyline where TikTok plays in in a very pivotal way 348 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: and I'm wondering, like, is being online a big part 349 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: of being in the writer's room. And then secondly, if 350 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 1: you can talk a little bit about the way in 351 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:45,159 Speaker 1: which technology plays into Late Night and that storyline, it 352 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 1: is something that inevitably has to be considered as an 353 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 1: online medium, even though it exists on terrestrial television. 354 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. I mean, I think what you're hitting on 355 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 2: is exactly right, which is that we also want to 356 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 2: be conscious of the fact that we do consume the Internet, 357 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 2: and we do love the Internet, and there are good 358 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 2: things about it. And like you know, Meg Stalter who 359 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 2: plays Killa, we found her on Instagram, and like you said, 360 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 2: Jake Shane, Robbie Hoffman, all these people came to us 361 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,400 Speaker 2: through that. And so again in my experience in comedy, 362 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 2: I have discovered some people that make me how laughing 363 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 2: more than anyone. You know. Chris Fleming is a comedian 364 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 2: who's special I produced a couple of years ago and 365 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 2: who I still work with, and I know of him 366 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 2: because I saw his stand up on the Internet and 367 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 2: I was like, this person is unbelievably funny to me. 368 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 2: And so it wouldn't be fair of us to just 369 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 2: make a season that's going like did the Internet ruin everything? 370 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 2: You know? Like that's that would be a very Pollyanna 371 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:53,439 Speaker 2: take that isn't true. And so I think we also 372 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 2: this season are exploring, like are very at least for myself, 373 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 2: like my own conflicted feelings about it, because I get 374 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 2: a lot from the Internet. I discover new talent and voices, 375 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 2: and that's incredibly helpful, and yet the economy of attention 376 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 2: like it it pulls my attention in such a fierce, 377 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 2: troublesome way that is like scary to me. 378 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: Well, and it also feels like television isn't the gold 379 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: standard anymore, Like the gold standard is virality, which you know, 380 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:27,679 Speaker 1: which is part of my next question. You know, you 381 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: have people like Evan ross Katz who the minute of 382 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 1: show airs, there's like the memification of whatever the best 383 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,879 Speaker 1: lines on those shows were. And I wonder, because I 384 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 1: have you here, like, honestly, to what extent. 385 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 2: Do you write to the. 386 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 1: Clickability? 387 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:53,360 Speaker 2: It's not possible. It must write what you mean, right 388 00:21:53,400 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 2: what Evan memes. It's really like it's crazy making you 389 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 2: think about it too much. You like really have to 390 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,680 Speaker 2: try to tune it out and not think that way. 391 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 2: I also feel like one thing that the Internet is 392 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 2: really good about is authenticity and sniffing out things that 393 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 2: are inauthentic. And so I think if you right to 394 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 2: the meme, so to speak, or we were trying to 395 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:26,120 Speaker 2: make something go viral. I think that you would smell 396 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 2: that and people would feel that, and then it doesn't 397 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 2: take off like That's that's one thing about the Internet 398 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,439 Speaker 2: that I do really appreciate and love, Like there's an 399 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 2: unpredictability to it. Things take off and catch fire and 400 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,639 Speaker 2: like hit some kind of like center of someone's brain 401 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,640 Speaker 2: and you just don't know why, and you can't really 402 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 2: reverse engineer it. 403 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,120 Speaker 1: It does kind of make you still believe that people 404 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: don't know what they want. And those are people who 405 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 1: are on the internet. 406 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 2: You could look at so many quote unquote hits of 407 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 2: the last few years, even like the Bear, And I 408 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,719 Speaker 2: think that's the danger in having all this data and technology, 409 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 2: because the tech industry can be so specific and data 410 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 2: driven and go like, well, this is the exact point 411 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:15,880 Speaker 2: at which someone turns this off, So that must mean 412 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 2: it's not good if this person you know, you don't know. 413 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 2: That's the thing that's really lovely about creating things is 414 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,479 Speaker 2: you have to just trust the person creating it in 415 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,399 Speaker 2: their brain and their heart. And and I think that 416 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 2: as we delve more into this tech world, it becomes 417 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 2: in danger of people thinking they can know better that 418 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 2: we can, like because tech does know better in a way. 419 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 2: We're all like, you know, little like lab rats, and 420 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,120 Speaker 2: they know that when I see the like red dot 421 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 2: on my screen, I'm gonna click it because like it 422 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 2: activates my dopamine or whatever, and so that's really scary. 423 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 2: But like there's a creative aspect of an unknowability that 424 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 2: is really important. 425 00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 1: This might be a huge leap, but like, in a way, 426 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: technology is a bit like humor to say, like the 427 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,479 Speaker 1: very humorous person says I know better, right, Like Freud 428 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: says that, like humor is the triumph of the ego, right, 429 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: like it will protect me from the pain of my life, 430 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:19,959 Speaker 1: right right, And then and then love says, no, you 431 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: can't use humor for everything, Like the triumph of your 432 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 1: life is actually like your humanity. And like I do 433 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: think that HACKS really is about the way in which 434 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: humor is a triumph, but it's also about how humor 435 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: can't do everything. 436 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, totally well. And I think what you're pointing 437 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 2: out is exactly right, that there's something in humor and 438 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 2: I've certainly used it in my life to protect myself 439 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 2: from feeling things at times like humor puts you sometimes 440 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 2: at a distance because you're observing, you're not experiencing the thing. 441 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:57,719 Speaker 2: And I think what you're pointing out is that it 442 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 2: is this, it's this desire for control and hacks. You're 443 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 2: exactly right. It is both about how comedy is so 444 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 2: important and can save us, and yet you also need 445 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 2: to feel the feelings and give into the unpredictability of 446 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 2: life because otherwise you're just trying to protect yourself. You're 447 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 2: ultimately trying to protect yourself from dying, which you can't. 448 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 1: Yeah. I just I think that there's like there's hubris 449 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,199 Speaker 1: on both sides. There's hubris on the sides of technology 450 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 1: companies who believe that they can outsmart and predict what 451 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: people want. And there's also hubris on the side of 452 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 1: the creative who like believes that their own creativity can 453 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: kind of trump all. 454 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, And we really tried to express through the Hell 455 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 2: and Hunk character this season, like we felt it would 456 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,639 Speaker 2: be pat and not truthful if it was just like 457 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 2: the brave creatives against the capitalist monster executives. It's like 458 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 2: that's not interesting because that's not truthful either. Like, there 459 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 2: are great people on both sides of this trying to 460 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 2: navigate this intersection, and you're exactly right. It's like the 461 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 2: fact of the matter is, I can't tell you that 462 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 2: I don't like going on TikTok and watching people dance. 463 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 2: I do like there's something just visceral and human. I 464 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 2: don't know what it is, but like there's a reason 465 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 2: people love it. It taps into something. 466 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,360 Speaker 1: After the break. Why Hacks writer and co creator Jen 467 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,439 Speaker 1: Statsky is concerned about the effects of AGI on her 468 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: industry Stay with us. Paul Schrader is a guy who 469 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: said that chat GPT is something that could help ID eight. 470 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,439 Speaker 1: I'm sure you were sort of following the ways in 471 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: which the strike addressed, you know, algorithmically driven creativity or 472 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: as we say, generative AI would affect the creativity of 473 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: the business. So my question is twofold, which is one like, 474 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 1: how did the WGA address this during and after the strikes? 475 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 1: And two can AI be funny? 476 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,679 Speaker 2: My take on AI is really that quote that's like 477 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 2: I want AI to do my laundry and dishes so 478 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 2: that I can do art and writing, not for AI 479 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 2: to do my art and writing so that I can 480 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 2: do my laundry and dishes. I don't want AI to 481 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 2: come into the realm of creation, and it will inevitably 482 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 2: and it already has, so it doesn't matter what I want, 483 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,479 Speaker 2: it's going to happen. But just speaking as a creative 484 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,120 Speaker 2: person who has done this for I guess like fifteen 485 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 2: years now, I never loan for a machine to give 486 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 2: me any I do laan for a machine to give 487 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,640 Speaker 2: an answer. In the worst parts of writing, you're like, God, 488 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 2: someone just tell me the answer. But it would to 489 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:24,160 Speaker 2: me really make the process feel hollow. And the show 490 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 2: Hacks is very much so about the joy of creating 491 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 2: with someone else, and that process in many ways is 492 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 2: the reward, not the end result or the acclaim or 493 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 2: the rewards. And so if you take the joy out 494 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 2: of that process and the humanity out of the very 495 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 2: process of creating the thing, I just worry that it 496 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 2: feels very hollow. 497 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: So you are not tempted by G, as I like 498 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 1: to call her. 499 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 2: I am really not tempted by G in a way 500 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 2: that I will be the old man like screaming, get 501 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 2: off my lawn, like you know, the industry will pass 502 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 2: me by, and I'll be like Jen, you gotta use G, 503 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 2: you gotta gen you got Jen, you haven't worked in 504 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 2: fifteen years. You gotta use G. I just I don't know. 505 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:17,719 Speaker 2: I mean, like, what is Paul Shrew What is his 506 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 2: example of how it could be useful? How can an idea? 507 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: I think it's idea generation, Like, oh, you know Hannah 508 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 1: and deb are in Vegas. What is something that they 509 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: would do in Vegas that could be really fun? So 510 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: in this way, I don't want to be again like 511 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 1: Pollyanna a butt and be like no, I would never 512 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: be cause like in some ways it's like, okay. 513 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 2: When we write that. There's an episode this season where 514 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 2: Deborneva go back to my face. 515 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: I call her hand. I'm sorry, Deborneva, Hannah's Hannah and 516 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: I'll tell you what. 517 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 2: You know who does that all the time? Is Gene Smart? 518 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 2: In scene she'll be like Hannah, and I'm like, there 519 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 2: is an argument to be made, you know. When we 520 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 2: wrote that episode, of course we're googling, like Las Vegas 521 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 2: things to do. It's not like I don't use the 522 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 2: Internet in my writing. So I guess one might say, 523 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 2: how different is it? Then it's just. 524 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: Google lowercase G. 525 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 2: I use lower CASEG, not the big G. Yeah, but 526 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 2: one could argue like, well, what's the difference about using 527 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 2: the big G. You're already like using the internet to 528 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 2: provide you with answers about that. What is the difference? 529 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 2: I just it's to me, it's such a slippery slope, 530 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 2: and I think I get really scared because I don't 531 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 2: think humans will put on the guardrails to not let 532 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 2: it get out of control. 533 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: So conversely, there's the issue of training algorithms on pre 534 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: existing scripts. Yeah, and training algorithms on now subtitles, right, 535 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: so they can actually collect subtitles from shows and movies 536 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: and use those subtitles to train algorithms that then will 537 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 1: do what I guess, build better models. I would imagine 538 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 1: it's sort of boring for me to even ask your 539 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: opinion on that. I just wonder as a member of 540 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: the WGA, as far as moving forward post strike is concerned, like, 541 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 1: can you talk a little bit about what's been going 542 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: on and the conversations that have been had. 543 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think the language that we were 544 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 2: advocating for was that like a script. This is funny, 545 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 2: It's like a basically like a script needed to be 546 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 2: written by a human being. That was like the language 547 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 2: being put in the contract. 548 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 1: Those are your guardrails. 549 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 2: Those are the guardrails. Yeah, and I actually am a 550 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 2: Writer's Guild caption and well there and here's here's the 551 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 2: problem here. I missed the meeting last night, so can 552 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 2: you imagine how much delicious hot off the press information 553 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 2: for you? But I'm a delinquent union rep. But it's 554 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 2: it seems crazy to me that companies would be able 555 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 2: to take this tremendous amount of material owned by the studios, 556 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 2: owned by the networks and just use it for their 557 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 2: own profit. And there has to be some I don't 558 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 2: know why. I have no idea. I think what's really 559 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 2: scary is I have no idea where the studios and 560 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 2: the networks and companies are at with it in terms 561 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 2: of it seems like the type of thing that they 562 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 2: would so viciously go after of like you're using our 563 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 2: copywritten material. But I also think they probably see the 564 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 2: writing on the wall that they're all going to have 565 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 2: to get into the AI space themselves. So I have 566 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 2: no idea, to be honest, like what the higher level 567 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 2: conversations are. But as a creative, it seems insane to 568 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 2: me that you can't just take a show and throw 569 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 2: it up on your YouTube channel, like they go after 570 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 2: that so viciously to take down copyright materials. So to me, 571 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,479 Speaker 2: this feeling is very similar, and I think there is 572 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:05,479 Speaker 2: like you know, I believe Shonda Rhimes and some other 573 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 2: people there's like correct me on that if I'm wrong, 574 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 2: But I believe some artists are coming together to like 575 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 2: pursue legal action about it. 576 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: They are. 577 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, absolutely. 578 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 1: And so to your point about like creativity and the 579 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: purpose of creating art, especially TV being the collaboration not 580 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: actually the product, I think that's where something like chat 581 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: GPT gets you in a little bit of trouble, even 582 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 1: if you're someone who's like a solo screenwriter, that there 583 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 1: has to be at a certain point a level of 584 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: you know, sort of interaction and toiling. What I think 585 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 1: is problematic about the intersection between artificial intelligence and creativity 586 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 1: is that it becomes a little frictionless, and that is 587 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: where things start getting boring. 588 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 2: Yes, it's a good it's a very good point. And 589 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 2: if someone was asking this, they were talking to me 590 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 2: about like season four of US show, it's really easy 591 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:10,240 Speaker 2: for a show to get like complacent and not grow 592 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,840 Speaker 2: or not or just feel stagnant. And one thing I 593 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 2: said was that I think that it's something we really 594 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 2: have to our advantages, that there are three creators and 595 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 2: we are constantly checking each other and being like have 596 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 2: we done that before? Is that? Could that be better? 597 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 2: Like there is we are in a constant dialogue about it, 598 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,439 Speaker 2: and there is toiling there, and there is friction there, 599 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,760 Speaker 2: and it makes it better. And exactly to your point, 600 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 2: it will be frictionless if you just go to the 601 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 2: TG and say what should Deborahn have a fight about 602 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 2: this episode and it gives you the answer and you 603 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 2: go okay. 604 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: Like that. 605 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:50,439 Speaker 2: That's that is exactly. It's like sad because so much 606 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 2: of this is like if it ain't broke, don't fix it. 607 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 2: Like there is an element of that to storytelling and 608 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 2: Hollywood that I feel we're in an era of like 609 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 2: we fix something that wasn't really broken. 610 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 1: You know what it is? It's that in a technological age, 611 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 1: optimization is the point, yes, And if optimization is the point, 612 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,239 Speaker 1: then everything is pushed into the tent of optimization. 613 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:20,399 Speaker 2: That's exactly it. Technology tells us we must optimize our 614 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 2: life in every single way, and you just can't optimize creativity. 615 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 2: You can't go what is the most efficient, easiest, best 616 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 2: way to make art. You just can't like that. It's 617 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 2: it's contrary to the point of it. And so I 618 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,879 Speaker 2: think that's exactly the thing that worries me is that 619 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:44,400 Speaker 2: if we go, if we follow this to the logical extension, 620 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 2: does everything go to the point of optimization? Does every 621 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 2: show get put through this filter of but what will 622 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 2: get the most eyeballs on? What will get the most subscribers? 623 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,880 Speaker 2: Because we are trying to optimize profit for the company, 624 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 2: you know, like who is stopping that? 625 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: I think we all are stopping it. I think humor 626 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: sort of acts as this way to say, look, this 627 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 1: can't affect me that much. And I think why humor 628 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 1: has such a lasting influence on society and culture is that, 629 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 1: like we get to make jokes about optimization. That is 630 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 1: where humor plays in, and that's where you get to 631 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,919 Speaker 1: tell people, guys, this is weird. Like I don't need 632 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 1: to optimize my steps. I don't need to optimize my sleep. 633 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,799 Speaker 1: People have been been done sleeping, you know, like we figured. 634 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 2: Out sleeping for the most We're like we're good on 635 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 2: sleeping totally. Yes, Yeah, that's it. That is a that 636 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,399 Speaker 2: is a optimistic way to look at it that humor. Yes, 637 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,319 Speaker 2: it detaches you a bit, but in the detachment you 638 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 2: can point out the absurdity of it in a way 639 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,840 Speaker 2: that perhaps makes people think differently about it and maybe 640 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:49,760 Speaker 2: behave differently. 641 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:54,720 Speaker 1: And I think that's where Ava ultimately gets to play 642 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 1: as a character on Hacks, where it's like, this is 643 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: someone who is deeply feeling but also is like deeply 644 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 1: disturbed by the way things are, where Deborah is more like, 645 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 1: this is reality and I still love being funny, you know. Yeah, yes, 646 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 1: And that's where I think they really but reads. 647 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 2: That's where they but but that's where they also make 648 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 2: each other better, because it's a Ava sees things in 649 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,799 Speaker 2: this way and is disturbed by it and says like, well, 650 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,879 Speaker 2: what if it could be better? And Deborah says, but yes, 651 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:30,680 Speaker 2: but we still have to do the work. So let's 652 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 2: figure out a way to do the work. 653 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 1: Jen, I really appreciate it. 654 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, thank you. It's such so lovely to 655 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:38,360 Speaker 2: talk to you. 656 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 1: That's it for this week for tech stuff. I'm caar Price. 657 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,320 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Eliza Dennis and Adriana Tapia. 658 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,799 Speaker 1: It was executive produced by me Oswa Washian and Kate 659 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 1: Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norvell for iHeart Podcast. Biheed 660 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,360 Speaker 1: Fraser is our engineer and Jack Insley mixed this episode, 661 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 1: and Kyle Murdoch wrote our theme song. Join us on 662 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 1: Friday for the Week in tech Oz and I will 663 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:13,880 Speaker 1: run through all those tech headlines you may have missed. 664 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,920 Speaker 1: Please rate, review, and reach out to us at tech 665 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,280 Speaker 1: Stuff Podcast at gmail dot com. 666 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 2: We want to hear from you.