1 00:00:09,664 --> 00:00:13,103 Speaker 1: Mission Implausible is now something you can watch. Just go 2 00:00:13,144 --> 00:00:16,823 Speaker 1: to YouTube and search Mission Implausible podcasts or click on 3 00:00:16,864 --> 00:00:20,864 Speaker 1: the link to our channel. In our show notes, I'm 4 00:00:20,904 --> 00:00:22,064 Speaker 1: John Cipher. 5 00:00:21,664 --> 00:00:22,784 Speaker 2: And I'm Jerry O'Shea. 6 00:00:23,264 --> 00:00:26,544 Speaker 3: We have over sixty years of experience as clandestine officers 7 00:00:26,624 --> 00:00:29,544 Speaker 3: in the CIA, serving in high risk areas all around 8 00:00:29,544 --> 00:00:30,264 Speaker 3: the world, and. 9 00:00:30,304 --> 00:00:34,504 Speaker 2: Part of our job was creating conspiracies to deceive our adversaries. 10 00:00:34,784 --> 00:00:37,504 Speaker 3: Now we're going to use that experience to investigate the 11 00:00:37,504 --> 00:00:40,424 Speaker 3: conspiracy theories everyone's talking about as well as some of 12 00:00:40,464 --> 00:00:41,264 Speaker 3: you may not have heard. 13 00:00:41,304 --> 00:00:43,584 Speaker 2: Could they be true or are we being manipulated? 14 00:00:43,664 --> 00:00:49,144 Speaker 3: We'll find out now on Mission Implausible. All right, Today, 15 00:00:49,184 --> 00:00:51,703 Speaker 3: we're going to be talking with a longtime friend of 16 00:00:51,744 --> 00:00:53,744 Speaker 3: the pod and someone who's been on before. We're glad 17 00:00:53,744 --> 00:00:56,544 Speaker 3: to have her back, Tara Paul Mary. She's a journalist 18 00:00:56,624 --> 00:00:59,944 Speaker 3: who's worked with all sorts of news organizations ABC News, Politico, 19 00:01:00,104 --> 00:01:02,624 Speaker 3: New York Post, Washington Examiner, and has her own show, 20 00:01:02,624 --> 00:01:05,144 Speaker 3: that Tara Paul Mary Show. But we also have our 21 00:01:05,184 --> 00:01:08,184 Speaker 3: regular colleague Adam Davidson with us again today. 22 00:01:08,304 --> 00:01:12,144 Speaker 2: So Julai Max famously right, she's in prison. She meets 23 00:01:12,144 --> 00:01:15,063 Speaker 2: with Todd Blanche to number two in the Justice Department 24 00:01:15,304 --> 00:01:21,104 Speaker 2: and Trump's former personal lawyer. Thereafter, magically, this woman who 25 00:01:21,224 --> 00:01:25,904 Speaker 2: is a predator, suddenly is transferred to the nicest elite 26 00:01:26,063 --> 00:01:30,984 Speaker 2: prison facility in the US government, and nobody knows who 27 00:01:31,143 --> 00:01:35,144 Speaker 2: signed off on hers being sent there, And a whistleblower 28 00:01:35,224 --> 00:01:37,663 Speaker 2: comes up and says, she has all these special privileges 29 00:01:38,063 --> 00:01:40,544 Speaker 2: to include petting puppies. 30 00:01:40,863 --> 00:01:42,544 Speaker 3: Are you sure it's not a rat, It's just a 31 00:01:42,584 --> 00:01:43,103 Speaker 3: big rat. 32 00:01:43,423 --> 00:01:47,984 Speaker 2: At this facility, they train puppies to be like dogs 33 00:01:47,984 --> 00:01:51,144 Speaker 2: that can sniff bombs and can help blind people. And 34 00:01:51,384 --> 00:01:54,584 Speaker 2: a puppy was taken out of training because Galaine makes 35 00:01:54,624 --> 00:01:57,224 Speaker 2: out the only prison in this whole facility, so she 36 00:01:57,384 --> 00:01:58,944 Speaker 2: could play with a puppy. 37 00:01:59,424 --> 00:02:01,024 Speaker 4: It's not just that the puppy like. 38 00:02:01,064 --> 00:02:05,464 Speaker 5: She's been able to get vegan food, toilet paper, which 39 00:02:05,464 --> 00:02:08,984 Speaker 5: is actually a really big deal in prison haircuts. When 40 00:02:08,984 --> 00:02:12,264 Speaker 5: she gets visitors, they basically put the prison under lockdown. 41 00:02:12,584 --> 00:02:15,504 Speaker 5: They treat her like a VIP. I think it's pretty 42 00:02:15,504 --> 00:02:19,424 Speaker 5: clear that it was Todd Blanche that moved her in 43 00:02:19,504 --> 00:02:24,984 Speaker 5: exchange for this exonerating interview, and they want to keep 44 00:02:24,984 --> 00:02:27,344 Speaker 5: her alive and safe, and that makes me think that 45 00:02:28,024 --> 00:02:30,184 Speaker 5: she may get a pardon at the end of this game. 46 00:02:30,264 --> 00:02:32,584 Speaker 6: I will say I do always like to remind people 47 00:02:32,984 --> 00:02:35,424 Speaker 6: tyr and I tyr more than me. But we've talked 48 00:02:35,464 --> 00:02:39,784 Speaker 6: to a lot of the victims, and the visceral hatred 49 00:02:39,824 --> 00:02:42,424 Speaker 6: of Glaine far more than Jeffrey Epstein. 50 00:02:42,464 --> 00:02:44,104 Speaker 7: I mean, yeah, these are not people. 51 00:02:44,184 --> 00:02:49,104 Speaker 6: Obviously there's deep upset about Jeffrey Epstein, but the hatred 52 00:02:49,224 --> 00:02:52,704 Speaker 6: of Gallane for her cruelty, and I just I get 53 00:02:52,784 --> 00:02:57,663 Speaker 6: very frustrated when there's even the slightest hint that oh, 54 00:02:57,744 --> 00:03:00,384 Speaker 6: she was just his girlfriend. She was caught up like 55 00:03:00,424 --> 00:03:03,704 Speaker 6: she's you know, I don't want to start differentiating who's 56 00:03:03,704 --> 00:03:06,304 Speaker 6: more guilty, Glaine or Jeffrey. They're both super guilty, but 57 00:03:06,584 --> 00:03:10,144 Speaker 6: she is right there with him as key designer of 58 00:03:10,224 --> 00:03:14,584 Speaker 6: the whole abuse system and the crueler perpetrator. I mean, 59 00:03:14,624 --> 00:03:17,663 Speaker 6: it's a weird thing to say, but Jeffrey Epstein from 60 00:03:17,664 --> 00:03:20,384 Speaker 6: what we would hear, and this is a ridiculous thing 61 00:03:20,424 --> 00:03:23,784 Speaker 6: to say, but he wasn't cruel in the way she 62 00:03:24,064 --> 00:03:27,024 Speaker 6: was to people, and she participated in the sex acts. 63 00:03:27,104 --> 00:03:29,904 Speaker 6: It wasn't just she was caught up with it anyway. 64 00:03:29,944 --> 00:03:31,144 Speaker 7: I was like to make that point. 65 00:03:31,384 --> 00:03:34,864 Speaker 5: No, she was the mastermind, like in a lot of ways, 66 00:03:34,864 --> 00:03:38,584 Speaker 5: like he was not able to get these girls to 67 00:03:38,624 --> 00:03:43,584 Speaker 5: show up at his doorstep without a woman who made 68 00:03:43,584 --> 00:03:46,704 Speaker 5: them feel safe, a grown woman who was posh and 69 00:03:47,464 --> 00:03:49,064 Speaker 5: was not the type of woman you would think would 70 00:03:49,064 --> 00:03:51,624 Speaker 5: be hanging out with the pedophile. She was basically like 71 00:03:51,664 --> 00:03:55,824 Speaker 5: Elizabeth Murdoch. She had status, she had connections, she had 72 00:03:56,384 --> 00:03:59,704 Speaker 5: a posh British accent, a dog named Max, a little 73 00:03:59,784 --> 00:04:02,704 Speaker 5: Yorky that she would use, and she would tell them 74 00:04:02,784 --> 00:04:05,544 Speaker 5: that their dreams could come true. She could help that happen. 75 00:04:05,944 --> 00:04:09,984 Speaker 5: What did Virginia call her Mary Poppins or something like that. 76 00:04:10,304 --> 00:04:14,384 Speaker 5: And she was manipulative, of course, but she also hated 77 00:04:14,424 --> 00:04:17,743 Speaker 5: them because she was so desperate for Jeffrey's love that 78 00:04:18,424 --> 00:04:21,264 Speaker 5: she was cruel, extra cruel to these girls because they 79 00:04:21,264 --> 00:04:23,984 Speaker 5: got in between them and what she wanted with Jeffrey 80 00:04:24,024 --> 00:04:24,863 Speaker 5: to be her boyfriend. 81 00:04:25,384 --> 00:04:28,424 Speaker 2: She hears Trump say I'm not going to rule out 82 00:04:28,424 --> 00:04:32,263 Speaker 2: a pardon for her. Is that part of the conspiracy? Basically, 83 00:04:32,344 --> 00:04:35,183 Speaker 2: is this a way for them to communicate, like, you 84 00:04:35,264 --> 00:04:39,264 Speaker 2: keep your mouth shut about my potential involvement in this, 85 00:04:39,383 --> 00:04:40,504 Speaker 2: and maybe I'll give you a. 86 00:04:40,464 --> 00:04:42,424 Speaker 4: Pardon he hasn't ruled it out. 87 00:04:42,984 --> 00:04:46,023 Speaker 2: He's specifically said, I'm not ruling it out right. 88 00:04:46,104 --> 00:04:48,503 Speaker 4: He wants to keep her happy so she doesn't go black. 89 00:04:48,664 --> 00:04:51,224 Speaker 6: Tara, I want to ask you some You and I 90 00:04:51,264 --> 00:04:56,503 Speaker 6: work together very intensely on the Epstein story, and I've 91 00:04:56,544 --> 00:04:59,584 Speaker 6: told people I spent a year in a rock, as 92 00:04:59,623 --> 00:05:05,264 Speaker 6: I have mentioned. Really yeah, I covered the tsunami in Indonesia. 93 00:05:05,344 --> 00:05:08,664 Speaker 6: I saw thousands of dead bodies. I covered the Haiti earthquake. 94 00:05:09,544 --> 00:05:12,784 Speaker 6: I think that covering Epstein was the most traumatic thing 95 00:05:13,024 --> 00:05:16,303 Speaker 6: I've done. There was something about the like, on the 96 00:05:16,344 --> 00:05:20,504 Speaker 6: one hand, really getting intimate with people whose lives had 97 00:05:20,503 --> 00:05:25,463 Speaker 6: been ruined by this man, including our friend who we 98 00:05:25,503 --> 00:05:27,904 Speaker 6: both loved a lot, Virginia, who ended up taking her 99 00:05:27,904 --> 00:05:31,904 Speaker 6: own life because of it. But then there's something specific 100 00:05:32,183 --> 00:05:36,904 Speaker 6: about the complete lack of justice, the complete lack yeah, 101 00:05:36,943 --> 00:05:39,903 Speaker 6: you know in our country. That and I was pretty 102 00:05:39,904 --> 00:05:42,664 Speaker 6: messed up by doing that story. I also spent four 103 00:05:42,743 --> 00:05:45,743 Speaker 6: years covering Trump at a distance. I was covering his 104 00:05:45,823 --> 00:05:48,183 Speaker 6: businesses in New York. I've never, as far as I know, 105 00:05:48,264 --> 00:05:50,183 Speaker 6: been in a room with him. I've never seen him 106 00:05:50,224 --> 00:05:54,743 Speaker 6: in person, and I needed I mean, I basically all 107 00:05:54,784 --> 00:05:56,904 Speaker 6: but quit journalism because I needed a break. 108 00:05:56,943 --> 00:05:57,743 Speaker 7: It was too much. 109 00:05:57,904 --> 00:06:00,344 Speaker 6: And you've been more on the front lines of both 110 00:06:00,383 --> 00:06:03,264 Speaker 6: those stories than I have. How I don't know, how 111 00:06:03,264 --> 00:06:03,783 Speaker 6: are you doing? 112 00:06:03,984 --> 00:06:06,784 Speaker 7: How is that? And why aren't you living in a 113 00:06:06,863 --> 00:06:07,863 Speaker 7: farmhouse in Vermont. 114 00:06:08,024 --> 00:06:11,464 Speaker 5: I'm getting there, I'm following you. It's been really it's 115 00:06:11,464 --> 00:06:14,624 Speaker 5: been hard. But like I'm not a white House corspondent anymore, 116 00:06:14,664 --> 00:06:15,863 Speaker 5: so that's kind of easier. 117 00:06:15,943 --> 00:06:17,984 Speaker 4: I do still cover politics, but. 118 00:06:17,943 --> 00:06:21,904 Speaker 5: I'm not like in the room being eaten up like 119 00:06:21,984 --> 00:06:26,863 Speaker 5: these other journalists are not getting any information. That's one way, 120 00:06:27,224 --> 00:06:31,544 Speaker 5: and it's tiring, it's exhausting a little bit, but like 121 00:06:31,863 --> 00:06:34,224 Speaker 5: you have to compartmentalize your life to a little bit 122 00:06:34,224 --> 00:06:36,024 Speaker 5: where people call a lot and they want to talk 123 00:06:36,063 --> 00:06:38,984 Speaker 5: all the time about Trump or Epstein or this or that, 124 00:06:39,063 --> 00:06:41,384 Speaker 5: and I do have to be like, okay, I need 125 00:06:41,424 --> 00:06:44,344 Speaker 5: a minute, like I need a break because it's actually 126 00:06:44,383 --> 00:06:45,824 Speaker 5: not my entire world. 127 00:06:46,104 --> 00:06:47,984 Speaker 4: But this summer it was really hard. 128 00:06:48,344 --> 00:06:51,544 Speaker 5: I can't there's no other way to say it, because 129 00:06:51,704 --> 00:06:54,944 Speaker 5: it was like the Epstein stuff just came back out. 130 00:06:55,383 --> 00:06:59,424 Speaker 5: Virginia dying. I felt some guilt around it because I 131 00:06:59,424 --> 00:07:02,424 Speaker 5: had spoken to her before she died, and she really 132 00:07:03,144 --> 00:07:05,744 Speaker 5: telling me about like how horrible her life was, and 133 00:07:06,063 --> 00:07:08,344 Speaker 5: I don't I mean, everybody feels that way when they've 134 00:07:08,383 --> 00:07:10,824 Speaker 5: spoken to someone who's sounded like they were at the 135 00:07:10,864 --> 00:07:14,104 Speaker 5: end of their rope. And she was in Australia and 136 00:07:14,144 --> 00:07:17,224 Speaker 5: I was saying, come to America, come get help. You 137 00:07:17,264 --> 00:07:19,984 Speaker 5: need to see your family, and said, go to your publicist, 138 00:07:20,224 --> 00:07:22,824 Speaker 5: see me. But she was there alone on this farm 139 00:07:22,864 --> 00:07:25,664 Speaker 5: and her kids were taken from her. And we all 140 00:07:25,664 --> 00:07:28,744 Speaker 5: got close to Virginia and we were there with her. 141 00:07:29,264 --> 00:07:33,384 Speaker 5: We saw up close the kind of impact these stories 142 00:07:33,464 --> 00:07:36,424 Speaker 5: have on these women and how they changes their lives 143 00:07:36,584 --> 00:07:41,624 Speaker 5: in really difficult ways. And so, yeah, it's been a 144 00:07:41,744 --> 00:07:44,903 Speaker 5: it's been a struggle, but like otherwise, I don't know 145 00:07:44,904 --> 00:07:45,544 Speaker 5: what else to do. 146 00:07:45,704 --> 00:07:48,184 Speaker 4: I don't have another plan. I don't know. This is it. 147 00:07:48,304 --> 00:07:49,864 Speaker 4: Maybe I'm trapped in a doom loop. 148 00:07:49,944 --> 00:07:53,904 Speaker 3: But you're good at it. So let me switch to 149 00:07:54,064 --> 00:07:57,264 Speaker 3: another topic that that might still drive you crazy. But 150 00:07:57,344 --> 00:08:00,184 Speaker 3: I saw you did an interview with George Santos, I know, 151 00:08:00,624 --> 00:08:02,984 Speaker 3: and he said he was in solitary confinement for I 152 00:08:03,024 --> 00:08:04,864 Speaker 3: don't know, forty one days or some kind of things. 153 00:08:05,064 --> 00:08:07,544 Speaker 3: Do you believe him? Do you think he's sick. He's 154 00:08:07,584 --> 00:08:11,184 Speaker 3: made himself a hero in his own mind, and there's 155 00:08:11,224 --> 00:08:12,104 Speaker 3: something wrong with the guy. 156 00:08:12,264 --> 00:08:14,464 Speaker 5: Oh my god. Yeah, he told me he was seeing 157 00:08:14,584 --> 00:08:17,143 Speaker 5: me the other day for like no reason. It was 158 00:08:17,304 --> 00:08:21,904 Speaker 5: because I read his tweet because apparently, like Michael Cohen 159 00:08:21,944 --> 00:08:25,104 Speaker 5: asked him for help getting a pardon from Trump, and 160 00:08:25,384 --> 00:08:30,104 Speaker 5: I did reporting. I reached out and I asked him 161 00:08:30,184 --> 00:08:32,184 Speaker 5: is that true? Of course he denied it, and I 162 00:08:32,224 --> 00:08:34,424 Speaker 5: said on the show, like he's denied it, and he 163 00:08:34,544 --> 00:08:38,463 Speaker 5: was like, you read my text, That's why are tapping. 164 00:08:38,504 --> 00:08:41,463 Speaker 5: And I was like, no, it's not like you were 165 00:08:41,504 --> 00:08:43,784 Speaker 5: reporting with you were talking to a reporter. It wasn't 166 00:08:43,784 --> 00:08:46,224 Speaker 5: off the record. And I was asking for comment, like 167 00:08:46,343 --> 00:08:48,944 Speaker 5: what is wrong with you? But like, these are the 168 00:08:48,984 --> 00:08:52,064 Speaker 5: spawns of the Trump movement? This is what is happening. 169 00:08:52,144 --> 00:08:54,104 Speaker 3: Yeah, do you think he was actually in solitary It's 170 00:08:54,144 --> 00:08:56,104 Speaker 3: hard to manage. Why would he be in solitary conduct 171 00:08:56,144 --> 00:08:57,103 Speaker 3: findment for forty one days? 172 00:08:57,184 --> 00:08:59,144 Speaker 4: And if he was really annoying, maybe. 173 00:09:01,024 --> 00:09:01,463 Speaker 7: Time man. 174 00:09:01,864 --> 00:09:04,744 Speaker 5: Yeah, they were just like, ah, this guy, like enough, 175 00:09:05,304 --> 00:09:09,104 Speaker 5: he's a special character, but he obviously wants to do 176 00:09:09,664 --> 00:09:12,144 Speaker 5: TV and this and that, and he has to make 177 00:09:12,184 --> 00:09:14,944 Speaker 5: these outlandish comments and threats and to just stay in 178 00:09:14,984 --> 00:09:17,864 Speaker 5: the news cycle because he exists on the oxygen of 179 00:09:17,904 --> 00:09:20,104 Speaker 5: like us paying attention to him. But I interviewed him 180 00:09:20,144 --> 00:09:23,424 Speaker 5: because I find him maybe fascinating because of what he 181 00:09:23,504 --> 00:09:25,904 Speaker 5: got away with, and like, how do you get the pardon? 182 00:09:26,024 --> 00:09:26,224 Speaker 3: Now? 183 00:09:26,264 --> 00:09:28,064 Speaker 4: There's so many people that want pardons. 184 00:09:28,064 --> 00:09:32,224 Speaker 5: But I guess fraud is like Trump has been accused 185 00:09:32,264 --> 00:09:34,343 Speaker 5: of fraud, So it's like he's got to pardon all 186 00:09:34,384 --> 00:09:38,064 Speaker 5: the frauds or commute them, because otherwise it would be 187 00:09:38,103 --> 00:09:40,984 Speaker 5: acknowledgement that his own crime is a serious one. 188 00:09:41,103 --> 00:09:43,863 Speaker 6: So what are you working on now? I think one 189 00:09:43,864 --> 00:09:46,223 Speaker 6: of the things you're doing that I find cool is 190 00:09:47,024 --> 00:09:49,744 Speaker 6: like you are. I think part of my despair was 191 00:09:49,864 --> 00:09:54,944 Speaker 6: just how legacy media was collapsing in its influence, and 192 00:09:54,984 --> 00:09:58,344 Speaker 6: I feel like you have transitioned to a new. 193 00:09:58,264 --> 00:10:01,463 Speaker 7: Media way of being in the world to great effect. 194 00:10:02,144 --> 00:10:04,304 Speaker 5: I just I just have a piece in actually Vanity 195 00:10:04,304 --> 00:10:08,224 Speaker 5: Fair this month about this MAGA church in DC where 196 00:10:08,264 --> 00:10:10,504 Speaker 5: all these kids that like work for Trump, like seven 197 00:10:10,624 --> 00:10:14,024 Speaker 5: hundred of them are all meeting at a bar and 198 00:10:14,103 --> 00:10:19,144 Speaker 5: like taking shots of like the Blood of Christ or whatever. 199 00:10:19,144 --> 00:10:21,383 Speaker 5: And it's an evangelical church, but they're using it as 200 00:10:21,424 --> 00:10:24,184 Speaker 5: like a pipeline for conservative ink, like a spiritual Lincoln 201 00:10:24,184 --> 00:10:26,304 Speaker 5: where they help each other get jobs and kind of 202 00:10:26,944 --> 00:10:29,904 Speaker 5: move in and out of the agency's administration. So like 203 00:10:30,264 --> 00:10:33,304 Speaker 5: I'm still covering Washington day to day. There are some 204 00:10:33,384 --> 00:10:35,344 Speaker 5: like big leads that I've been sitting on, and some 205 00:10:35,384 --> 00:10:36,743 Speaker 5: of them are Epstein related. 206 00:10:36,784 --> 00:10:39,944 Speaker 4: They just take a long time to dig into. 207 00:10:40,184 --> 00:10:42,424 Speaker 5: And there is like a feeding the beast though when 208 00:10:42,463 --> 00:10:44,944 Speaker 5: you are in independent media, like you have to keep 209 00:10:45,784 --> 00:10:49,424 Speaker 5: putting out a newsletter daily, you have to keep putting 210 00:10:49,463 --> 00:10:51,984 Speaker 5: out a show daily that you have to feed the algorithm. 211 00:10:52,024 --> 00:10:54,103 Speaker 5: And I'm not into rage baiting, Like it's just not 212 00:10:54,223 --> 00:10:54,664 Speaker 5: my thing. 213 00:10:55,384 --> 00:10:57,024 Speaker 4: And that's a. 214 00:10:57,184 --> 00:10:59,503 Speaker 5: Big facet of the people who survive in this world. 215 00:10:59,504 --> 00:11:01,064 Speaker 5: And I think you would agree with me, to Adam, 216 00:11:01,064 --> 00:11:02,784 Speaker 5: because I always saw this in you, Like you were 217 00:11:02,824 --> 00:11:06,504 Speaker 5: annoyed with journalism that was timid with facts, right, Like 218 00:11:07,064 --> 00:11:10,824 Speaker 5: you were annoyed with just this fear of calling things 219 00:11:10,824 --> 00:11:14,664 Speaker 5: for what they are, stating them plainly and clearly and 220 00:11:14,864 --> 00:11:19,784 Speaker 5: instead of just drowning everything in caveats. And to say 221 00:11:19,984 --> 00:11:23,024 Speaker 5: it just feels like, why are the mainstream media is 222 00:11:23,064 --> 00:11:26,944 Speaker 5: so afraid of the Trump administration and they have been for. 223 00:11:26,864 --> 00:11:30,064 Speaker 6: A long time that I think I hear in my 224 00:11:30,144 --> 00:11:33,744 Speaker 6: head like legacy journalists making the counter argument, oh what, 225 00:11:33,944 --> 00:11:37,224 Speaker 6: we should just say anything, And there's a big gulf 226 00:11:37,304 --> 00:11:41,504 Speaker 6: between just say anything and do it responsibly but clearly. 227 00:11:41,624 --> 00:11:43,944 Speaker 6: And the way I always thought about it is the 228 00:11:44,024 --> 00:11:47,664 Speaker 6: reporter shouldn't know a lot of stuff that they're not 229 00:11:47,784 --> 00:11:51,744 Speaker 6: telling the audience, especially stuff that contradicts what they're telling 230 00:11:51,784 --> 00:11:54,623 Speaker 6: the audience. Like to me, an obvious example, which I 231 00:11:54,664 --> 00:11:58,264 Speaker 6: think is just every single thing, any quote that ever 232 00:11:58,343 --> 00:12:02,703 Speaker 6: happens in DC, is if someone tells you off the record, 233 00:12:03,223 --> 00:12:05,784 Speaker 6: I think X, and then on the record, I think 234 00:12:05,944 --> 00:12:06,984 Speaker 6: I don't think X. 235 00:12:07,184 --> 00:12:09,784 Speaker 7: You shouldn't use that on the record quote, like you shouldn't. 236 00:12:09,384 --> 00:12:13,104 Speaker 6: Knowingly deceive your audience now. But that happens literally like 237 00:12:13,184 --> 00:12:16,704 Speaker 6: every article. Yeah, just for it. Yeah, it's a known thing. 238 00:12:16,744 --> 00:12:18,824 Speaker 6: They'll say, listen, let me tell you the real deal. 239 00:12:19,024 --> 00:12:20,983 Speaker 7: Of course, he's crazy. I know he's crazy. 240 00:12:21,103 --> 00:12:24,384 Speaker 6: Every reporter who covers Congress will tell you, look off 241 00:12:24,384 --> 00:12:26,584 Speaker 6: the record, these guys really know it. But those same 242 00:12:26,624 --> 00:12:30,344 Speaker 6: reporters are covering those same Congress people and saying, in 243 00:12:30,384 --> 00:12:32,624 Speaker 6: a show of support, so and so said Trump blah, 244 00:12:32,664 --> 00:12:35,064 Speaker 6: blah blah. That's just one example, but I think that 245 00:12:35,144 --> 00:12:38,223 Speaker 6: there's both, like legal fears, there's also just practice. It's 246 00:12:38,264 --> 00:12:41,504 Speaker 6: not like the media wasn't terrified of this stuff before 247 00:12:41,544 --> 00:12:45,424 Speaker 6: Trump too, like that there wasn't too much timidity. But 248 00:12:45,463 --> 00:12:47,703 Speaker 6: then on top of it, I think there's a tonal thing, 249 00:12:47,864 --> 00:12:51,503 Speaker 6: maybe to a fault. I'm not saying this is unapologetically good. 250 00:12:51,784 --> 00:12:55,024 Speaker 6: New media is able to, I don't know, take more swings, 251 00:12:55,144 --> 00:12:57,624 Speaker 6: be more tonally like sharp. 252 00:12:58,103 --> 00:12:59,544 Speaker 7: There's less of a clear. 253 00:12:59,504 --> 00:13:04,744 Speaker 6: Contrast between opinion and accuracy, or there's a in my 254 00:13:04,784 --> 00:13:07,703 Speaker 6: mind of fiction and media that like to be accurate, 255 00:13:07,744 --> 00:13:08,824 Speaker 6: you can't have opinions. 256 00:13:26,904 --> 00:13:29,104 Speaker 3: So we've worked at CIA for years and there's a 257 00:13:29,103 --> 00:13:31,184 Speaker 3: big difference in the CIA between sort of the collectors, 258 00:13:31,184 --> 00:13:34,664 Speaker 3: the spies on the ground, and the analysts. But we 259 00:13:34,703 --> 00:13:37,184 Speaker 3: went through this with our analytic community. Is there. They 260 00:13:37,184 --> 00:13:40,104 Speaker 3: would often use weasel words so that when they would 261 00:13:40,103 --> 00:13:41,944 Speaker 3: send something to the White House, it's like they would 262 00:13:42,024 --> 00:13:44,424 Speaker 3: use words that so if it went the other way, 263 00:13:44,463 --> 00:13:45,944 Speaker 3: they could say, well, we all we said in there 264 00:13:45,944 --> 00:13:48,104 Speaker 3: that it could go either way kind of thing. And 265 00:13:48,424 --> 00:13:51,864 Speaker 3: you can understand in our world that's bureaucratic protection. We're like, 266 00:13:52,064 --> 00:13:54,064 Speaker 3: you know, you don't want to say that China's going 267 00:13:54,103 --> 00:13:56,664 Speaker 3: to fall next week and then maybe a dozen or something. 268 00:13:56,664 --> 00:13:59,064 Speaker 3: But what's the incentive for you? Is it because people 269 00:13:59,103 --> 00:14:01,224 Speaker 3: want to maintain access and they're afraid if they say 270 00:14:01,264 --> 00:14:05,224 Speaker 3: something too harsh, just get cut off. So why does 271 00:14:05,304 --> 00:14:06,784 Speaker 3: mainstream media do that? 272 00:14:06,864 --> 00:14:09,984 Speaker 4: Do you think it's a little bit of that. I 273 00:14:10,024 --> 00:14:11,504 Speaker 4: really do think that they are. 274 00:14:11,744 --> 00:14:15,384 Speaker 5: It is so access driven that they are trying to 275 00:14:15,664 --> 00:14:18,383 Speaker 5: protect their sources. I worked in network news for a 276 00:14:18,384 --> 00:14:20,304 Speaker 5: short period of time, and I couldn't do it like 277 00:14:20,384 --> 00:14:24,104 Speaker 5: it was just because I just like to break news. 278 00:14:24,144 --> 00:14:26,704 Speaker 5: I like to dig in, and I don't like to 279 00:14:26,784 --> 00:14:30,184 Speaker 5: spend the time trying to get the bullshitter to answer 280 00:14:30,224 --> 00:14:32,824 Speaker 5: my phone just so we can have a statement like 281 00:14:32,904 --> 00:14:35,504 Speaker 5: I want. I always believed actually sitting in the briefing 282 00:14:35,584 --> 00:14:38,784 Speaker 5: room is a total waste of time because all the 283 00:14:38,784 --> 00:14:44,104 Speaker 5: best sources are outside of that building, and anyone that's 284 00:14:44,104 --> 00:14:46,944 Speaker 5: going to give you a good story is probably not 285 00:14:47,384 --> 00:14:52,304 Speaker 5: the White House Press secretary, like she will give you 286 00:14:52,464 --> 00:14:55,424 Speaker 5: the story that she needs, not what the real story. 287 00:14:55,504 --> 00:14:58,584 Speaker 5: And but that obviously conflicts with bookings on the weekend, 288 00:14:58,944 --> 00:15:01,224 Speaker 5: the you know, Sunday morning shows and like that's going 289 00:15:01,304 --> 00:15:03,344 Speaker 5: to make it more difficult for that Trump interview they 290 00:15:03,344 --> 00:15:06,424 Speaker 5: have lined up, or who knows what's going on because 291 00:15:06,424 --> 00:15:09,704 Speaker 5: these networks are so political and bureaucratic, and that what's 292 00:15:10,104 --> 00:15:12,304 Speaker 5: really great about independent media is that you just go 293 00:15:12,384 --> 00:15:13,584 Speaker 5: directly to the audience. 294 00:15:13,624 --> 00:15:14,344 Speaker 4: You cut through. 295 00:15:14,944 --> 00:15:18,384 Speaker 2: There's the also the who owns the legacy media. So 296 00:15:18,864 --> 00:15:21,144 Speaker 2: it's very clear if you read the Washington Post that 297 00:15:21,184 --> 00:15:23,664 Speaker 2: the editorial has changed, right, Jeff Bezos is trying to 298 00:15:23,744 --> 00:15:27,224 Speaker 2: make nice to Trump, and and even on TikTok, there's 299 00:15:27,264 --> 00:15:30,224 Speaker 2: a conspiracy. And I think it's probably probably true that 300 00:15:30,664 --> 00:15:35,584 Speaker 2: last week Oracle takes over TikTok, and now people are 301 00:15:35,624 --> 00:15:39,904 Speaker 2: finding it difficult to upload onto TikTok videos that are 302 00:15:39,984 --> 00:15:45,224 Speaker 2: critical of Ice in Minnesota. Epstein suddenly is not apparently 303 00:15:45,664 --> 00:15:48,304 Speaker 2: you're unable for a lot of people, not everyone, but 304 00:15:48,424 --> 00:15:52,184 Speaker 2: people are having trouble even using the word Epstein on TikTok. 305 00:15:52,624 --> 00:15:56,744 Speaker 2: Is this a coincidence that, you know, Larry Allison, who 306 00:15:56,824 --> 00:16:00,064 Speaker 2: runs Oracle, who's friends with Trump, suddenly is this is 307 00:16:00,064 --> 00:16:02,744 Speaker 2: suddenly being apparently stifled. 308 00:16:02,864 --> 00:16:06,944 Speaker 6: I do think the political timidity, it's not an explicit 309 00:16:06,984 --> 00:16:10,504 Speaker 6: thing like that, because the way journalists think if you 310 00:16:10,624 --> 00:16:14,504 Speaker 6: actually tell them, no, you can't do this for political reasons, 311 00:16:15,264 --> 00:16:16,824 Speaker 6: they're going to freak out. I mean, we saw that 312 00:16:16,864 --> 00:16:20,064 Speaker 6: with CBS and Barry Weiss, and I think, like the 313 00:16:20,224 --> 00:16:22,704 Speaker 6: editors don't think they're doing that, but like I was 314 00:16:22,744 --> 00:16:26,264 Speaker 6: at NPR, which I think most people in impare would 315 00:16:26,344 --> 00:16:28,984 Speaker 6: genuinely say, no, we just are for both sides, like 316 00:16:29,024 --> 00:16:31,064 Speaker 6: we're genuinely for free and fair. 317 00:16:31,144 --> 00:16:31,424 Speaker 7: We're not. 318 00:16:32,184 --> 00:16:35,704 Speaker 6: But it was just obvious, you know that, I mean 319 00:16:35,784 --> 00:16:38,904 Speaker 6: weirdly because it's simultaneously from a left wing perspective. I 320 00:16:38,904 --> 00:16:41,664 Speaker 6: don't think it's consciously left wing. It's just that's who 321 00:16:41,664 --> 00:16:45,344 Speaker 6: works there. And the number of Republicans was very small, 322 00:16:45,624 --> 00:16:48,824 Speaker 6: but there's like a bending over backwards, and you would 323 00:16:48,904 --> 00:16:53,624 Speaker 6: see it whenever there was any kind of congressional oversight action, 324 00:16:53,744 --> 00:16:56,903 Speaker 6: which wasn't often, but there there was a genuine timidity. 325 00:16:57,264 --> 00:16:59,224 Speaker 6: But I think it's a more subtle. I think in 326 00:16:59,264 --> 00:17:01,944 Speaker 6: the case of Oracle and TikTok, it's easy to imagine. Obviously, 327 00:17:01,984 --> 00:17:04,424 Speaker 6: in the case of Elon's Twitter, we know what's going on, 328 00:17:05,344 --> 00:17:09,224 Speaker 6: and I would say the Oracle owned CBS, it's probably 329 00:17:09,264 --> 00:17:12,263 Speaker 6: pretty overt, I would assume, but i'd say, in the 330 00:17:12,344 --> 00:17:15,384 Speaker 6: day to day business of journalism, it's not hey, I 331 00:17:15,384 --> 00:17:17,784 Speaker 6: got to deal with these guys, or you got to 332 00:17:17,784 --> 00:17:21,304 Speaker 6: tone it down. It's more we want to be perceived 333 00:17:21,344 --> 00:17:25,904 Speaker 6: as fair, and it's just very easy to play on journalists, 334 00:17:25,944 --> 00:17:29,984 Speaker 6: and then there's a subtle but profound, like gravitational pressure 335 00:17:30,904 --> 00:17:34,784 Speaker 6: to not It's Carl Rove would explicitly talk about how 336 00:17:34,824 --> 00:17:39,224 Speaker 6: you can force journalists very easily into a defensive position 337 00:17:39,344 --> 00:17:42,904 Speaker 6: by saying you're violating the journalistic ethics. That's actually a 338 00:17:42,904 --> 00:17:45,144 Speaker 6: way I think about all of this is like, it 339 00:17:45,144 --> 00:17:48,664 Speaker 6: shouldn't be this easy to play journalists, But how is 340 00:17:48,744 --> 00:17:52,264 Speaker 6: that like in CIA? Was that on the one hand 341 00:17:52,304 --> 00:17:55,344 Speaker 6: you're saying, like the over timidity and the CIA stuff, 342 00:17:55,384 --> 00:17:58,904 Speaker 6: But could you be colorful in a memo? Could you 343 00:17:58,944 --> 00:18:01,304 Speaker 6: like get really passionate and be like, guys, what's going 344 00:18:01,344 --> 00:18:03,464 Speaker 6: on in DAR force really upsetting and we got to 345 00:18:03,464 --> 00:18:04,184 Speaker 6: get involved? 346 00:18:04,544 --> 00:18:07,304 Speaker 3: Is that I would make a distinction there between Yeah, 347 00:18:07,304 --> 00:18:10,584 Speaker 3: I mean we in our informal correspondent, in the correspondence 348 00:18:11,224 --> 00:18:13,184 Speaker 3: on our side of the house with the spy side 349 00:18:13,184 --> 00:18:15,624 Speaker 3: of the house. You could be pretty blunt and all 350 00:18:15,624 --> 00:18:17,783 Speaker 3: of those things. But if you're an analyst and you're 351 00:18:17,824 --> 00:18:21,184 Speaker 3: sending your finished analytic product to the White House, and 352 00:18:21,224 --> 00:18:23,624 Speaker 3: the Secretary of State and the Secretary of Defense want 353 00:18:23,664 --> 00:18:25,744 Speaker 3: to be very careful and clear. They have a very 354 00:18:25,784 --> 00:18:28,504 Speaker 3: specific style of writing. I started reading it like by 355 00:18:28,504 --> 00:18:31,504 Speaker 3: page three, you're like, you're going to fall asleep. So 356 00:18:31,984 --> 00:18:33,783 Speaker 3: but I think that's, you know, like the WMD thing 357 00:18:33,784 --> 00:18:36,864 Speaker 3: when when we analytically we meeting the analytic part the 358 00:18:36,864 --> 00:18:41,464 Speaker 3: CIA intelligence community said that Saddam has weapons of mass destruction, 359 00:18:41,504 --> 00:18:45,104 Speaker 3: and he didn't you. Naturally, the next time out, you're 360 00:18:45,104 --> 00:18:47,224 Speaker 3: going to be much more hedging your bets about what 361 00:18:47,264 --> 00:18:47,744 Speaker 3: you say. 362 00:18:47,944 --> 00:18:49,744 Speaker 7: And that was mostly you, John, right, that was just 363 00:18:50,544 --> 00:18:51,984 Speaker 7: it was Jerry, That was Jerry Cherry. 364 00:18:52,064 --> 00:18:55,784 Speaker 2: Terry was There was a famous instance where early in 365 00:18:55,824 --> 00:18:58,824 Speaker 2: the Iraq War that the station chief, who's a very 366 00:18:58,864 --> 00:19:01,784 Speaker 2: colorful guy, John, and I know and then colorful good 367 00:19:01,784 --> 00:19:05,824 Speaker 2: and bad. In rare instances, a station chief can write 368 00:19:05,864 --> 00:19:08,984 Speaker 2: directly to the White House and to the consumers and say, 369 00:19:09,184 --> 00:19:11,263 Speaker 2: here's my statement on what's going on. 370 00:19:11,304 --> 00:19:13,664 Speaker 3: It's in our version of an opinion piece, but it 371 00:19:13,664 --> 00:19:14,824 Speaker 3: has to be backed by facts. 372 00:19:14,904 --> 00:19:17,264 Speaker 2: Yeah. Right, So he came in and he said, this 373 00:19:17,304 --> 00:19:19,504 Speaker 2: is not a bunch of dead enders. We are involved 374 00:19:19,504 --> 00:19:24,744 Speaker 2: in a serious insurrection. Things are not going well in Iraq. 375 00:19:25,784 --> 00:19:27,824 Speaker 3: War, I think, which, of course, yeah. 376 00:19:27,424 --> 00:19:29,744 Speaker 2: And the White House there their response to this is 377 00:19:30,064 --> 00:19:31,784 Speaker 2: was it like, oh, you know, let's talk to the 378 00:19:31,784 --> 00:19:33,744 Speaker 2: guy or what's this based on? Was is he a 379 00:19:33,784 --> 00:19:37,104 Speaker 2: Democrat or a Republican? And then I think afterwards they 380 00:19:37,144 --> 00:19:39,504 Speaker 2: I think they've now said, we can't do that anymore. Right, 381 00:19:39,544 --> 00:19:42,384 Speaker 2: we can't send in those those pieces anymore. They have 382 00:19:42,504 --> 00:19:45,984 Speaker 2: to go through like headquarters first. They can't just go 383 00:19:46,104 --> 00:19:46,824 Speaker 2: directly out. 384 00:19:46,904 --> 00:19:49,824 Speaker 6: That's funny because I had the exact same experience, by 385 00:19:49,824 --> 00:19:53,263 Speaker 6: the way, which is especially like I feel like in 386 00:19:53,304 --> 00:19:56,104 Speaker 6: my memory, you know, the war was March and April, 387 00:19:56,144 --> 00:19:59,344 Speaker 6: and then I was in Baghdad from April on and 388 00:20:00,024 --> 00:20:02,584 Speaker 6: within hours it was obvious this is a disaster, like 389 00:20:02,664 --> 00:20:05,744 Speaker 6: it wasn't It did not take genius and even you 390 00:20:05,944 --> 00:20:08,344 Speaker 6: figure it out out, even I could figure it out. 391 00:20:08,464 --> 00:20:11,264 Speaker 6: But there was not market for those stories, like it 392 00:20:11,344 --> 00:20:12,984 Speaker 6: was weird. I remember I came home just for a 393 00:20:12,984 --> 00:20:17,264 Speaker 6: brieffacation like in June, and even my like lefty friends 394 00:20:17,344 --> 00:20:19,704 Speaker 6: or protested the war were like, I guess it's going 395 00:20:19,744 --> 00:20:21,504 Speaker 6: really well, and where we were like no, it's like 396 00:20:21,904 --> 00:20:22,864 Speaker 6: a disaster. 397 00:20:23,224 --> 00:20:24,984 Speaker 7: It is like unbelievable. 398 00:20:25,504 --> 00:20:29,624 Speaker 6: I remember literally going around to US officials and being like, 399 00:20:29,704 --> 00:20:32,304 Speaker 6: I've been assigned good news stories. Give me good news, 400 00:20:32,384 --> 00:20:34,944 Speaker 6: and I could not. There wasn't much. 401 00:20:35,064 --> 00:20:36,224 Speaker 7: It just wasn't the thing. 402 00:20:36,384 --> 00:20:39,544 Speaker 2: So, you know the show, we generally try to deconstructor 403 00:20:39,624 --> 00:20:43,104 Speaker 2: debunk conspiracy theories, but I'm gonna throw one ach. So 404 00:20:43,344 --> 00:20:46,784 Speaker 2: this is about Epstein, but way more so. Let's just 405 00:20:46,904 --> 00:20:49,944 Speaker 2: pretend because we know that US power is moving into 406 00:20:49,984 --> 00:20:52,664 Speaker 2: the Persian Gulf, like right, you know, sort of aircraft careers. 407 00:20:53,224 --> 00:20:55,544 Speaker 2: If we were to tack Iran, and I have no 408 00:20:55,624 --> 00:20:57,304 Speaker 2: d if we are, if we were to attack Iran 409 00:20:57,384 --> 00:21:00,904 Speaker 2: next week, right, and a decapitation strike, would the White 410 00:21:00,904 --> 00:21:03,304 Speaker 2: House not that they would use this to quick get 411 00:21:03,304 --> 00:21:05,904 Speaker 2: the Epstein stuff out, like to hide it, you know, 412 00:21:05,904 --> 00:21:09,184 Speaker 2: a strike on Iran, but you know a you know, 413 00:21:09,224 --> 00:21:11,824 Speaker 2: would they like, hey, let's strike Iron and that allows 414 00:21:11,904 --> 00:21:13,904 Speaker 2: us to get the Epstein stuff out, or well we're 415 00:21:13,904 --> 00:21:15,984 Speaker 2: going to strike around. That would be a good time 416 00:21:16,024 --> 00:21:19,144 Speaker 2: to put stuff out because nobody's talking Epstein with Minnesota 417 00:21:19,184 --> 00:21:21,664 Speaker 2: going on, right, they need something else to go on. 418 00:21:22,144 --> 00:21:24,184 Speaker 4: So yeah, I thought about that, and. 419 00:21:24,104 --> 00:21:26,704 Speaker 2: Would they use or to what extent would they use 420 00:21:27,144 --> 00:21:31,504 Speaker 2: something like in attack on Iran to like quick put 421 00:21:31,504 --> 00:21:33,704 Speaker 2: out Epstein stuff so that it stays on page three 422 00:21:33,784 --> 00:21:34,104 Speaker 2: or four. 423 00:21:34,344 --> 00:21:37,263 Speaker 5: I've thought about it, and I do think it's interesting. 424 00:21:37,864 --> 00:21:43,504 Speaker 5: And I wondered if all of these distractions by distractions 425 00:21:43,544 --> 00:21:49,144 Speaker 5: obviously world events, ransacking Maduro, ran on fire, We're about 426 00:21:49,184 --> 00:21:53,584 Speaker 5: to send our armada over there, Minneapolis, the ice aggression, 427 00:21:53,704 --> 00:21:56,584 Speaker 5: Like they didn't need to maintain this ice aggression this 428 00:21:56,784 --> 00:22:00,784 Speaker 5: entire time, now does How does that help an administration 429 00:22:00,864 --> 00:22:03,344 Speaker 5: that's trying to bury a story. Not a bad thing 430 00:22:03,424 --> 00:22:07,824 Speaker 5: for them, certainly, like keeps the story off off Epstein. 431 00:22:07,744 --> 00:22:11,184 Speaker 3: But how does that stuff play with the Maga faithful, 432 00:22:11,224 --> 00:22:12,944 Speaker 3: Because I think it was supposed to be about the 433 00:22:12,944 --> 00:22:15,824 Speaker 3: economy and everything and no more foreign wars, and now 434 00:22:15,824 --> 00:22:18,584 Speaker 3: I got the Greenland and you got Iran and Venezuela. 435 00:22:18,704 --> 00:22:20,904 Speaker 3: Like it might be good to keep Epstein off the 436 00:22:20,904 --> 00:22:22,904 Speaker 3: front pages, but it's got to be pissing off another 437 00:22:22,904 --> 00:22:24,064 Speaker 3: part of the Maga faithful. 438 00:22:24,224 --> 00:22:28,104 Speaker 5: I don't know with Maga faithful anymore. I mean, everything 439 00:22:28,344 --> 00:22:31,504 Speaker 5: he's doing does not reflect what they actually want. If 440 00:22:31,504 --> 00:22:34,864 Speaker 5: you actually listen to what the Maga believes, they didn't 441 00:22:34,864 --> 00:22:38,824 Speaker 5: want a Secretary of War or Department of War. This 442 00:22:38,864 --> 00:22:43,263 Speaker 5: is more of a libertarian crowd. They wanted affordability. But 443 00:22:43,264 --> 00:22:45,624 Speaker 5: Trump can't deliver on that. So he's like, I'm going 444 00:22:45,704 --> 00:22:48,504 Speaker 5: to work on my legacy. Get me a Nobel Peace Prize. 445 00:22:48,584 --> 00:22:51,584 Speaker 5: And that's what we got that one. 446 00:22:52,104 --> 00:22:53,744 Speaker 3: And he got a FIFA Peace Prize. 447 00:22:53,944 --> 00:22:58,304 Speaker 5: Yeah, as if FIFA has knows anything about peace, the 448 00:22:58,344 --> 00:23:00,144 Speaker 5: Saudis are going to send him a peace prize. I'm 449 00:23:00,184 --> 00:23:03,344 Speaker 5: sure soon his Board of Peace. Oh my god, what 450 00:23:03,424 --> 00:23:03,984 Speaker 5: a joke. 451 00:23:04,464 --> 00:23:05,424 Speaker 4: War Bond got. 452 00:23:05,264 --> 00:23:06,584 Speaker 3: To pay a billion to get in. 453 00:23:06,784 --> 00:23:11,224 Speaker 5: Net and Yahoo the best, the most peaceful of putin. Yeah, 454 00:23:11,264 --> 00:23:13,624 Speaker 5: I mean there's a reason that and you know this 455 00:23:13,744 --> 00:23:16,424 Speaker 5: to Adam, you put out the trash on a Friday afternoon. 456 00:23:16,904 --> 00:23:17,344 Speaker 4: Why is that? 457 00:23:18,184 --> 00:23:21,944 Speaker 5: Journalists are tired? The public is thinking about the weekend. 458 00:23:22,024 --> 00:23:24,104 Speaker 5: Why do you think they decided the deadline for the 459 00:23:24,104 --> 00:23:26,624 Speaker 5: Epstein Volesky right before the Christmas holidays? 460 00:23:26,864 --> 00:23:28,344 Speaker 3: Because it's a gift to us all. 461 00:23:45,504 --> 00:23:48,304 Speaker 6: My sense of like most white house, it's certainly like 462 00:23:48,344 --> 00:23:50,544 Speaker 6: the Obama White House. It's like what you would see 463 00:23:50,544 --> 00:23:52,424 Speaker 6: on the West Wing, where there's a bunch of people 464 00:23:52,464 --> 00:23:57,304 Speaker 6: sitting in a room like doing messaging strategy. My sense 465 00:23:57,584 --> 00:24:02,024 Speaker 6: of the Trump world is its best seen like the Sopranos. 466 00:24:02,064 --> 00:24:06,264 Speaker 6: There's like a bunch of people who have this access 467 00:24:06,304 --> 00:24:11,744 Speaker 6: to this platform for entrepreneurship of a sort. And we 468 00:24:11,784 --> 00:24:16,584 Speaker 6: see some characters like Greg Bavino like overstep or Scaramucci 469 00:24:16,744 --> 00:24:19,904 Speaker 6: or whatever, like they play it wrong. We see other characters, 470 00:24:19,904 --> 00:24:22,304 Speaker 6: certainly Stephen Miller, who were able to play well. He's 471 00:24:22,384 --> 00:24:25,024 Speaker 6: unique in his ability to play the long game. But 472 00:24:25,104 --> 00:24:27,224 Speaker 6: it's like a bunch of people got their hustle going, 473 00:24:27,624 --> 00:24:31,224 Speaker 6: and Pete Haig Seth's got his hustle going. And my 474 00:24:31,344 --> 00:24:34,144 Speaker 6: experience entire you have more experience than me that the 475 00:24:34,264 --> 00:24:36,384 Speaker 6: number one thing you hear from inside Trump World is 476 00:24:36,784 --> 00:24:39,184 Speaker 6: them shitting on everyone else in Trump World, Like their 477 00:24:39,664 --> 00:24:43,544 Speaker 6: number one concern is not liberals. It's like it's cash 478 00:24:43,624 --> 00:24:47,024 Speaker 6: buttel looking good somehow, like in their way of survival. 479 00:24:47,344 --> 00:24:50,984 Speaker 5: Yeah, although it's changed a little bit in this second 480 00:24:51,104 --> 00:24:54,023 Speaker 5: term because he's not as willing to it's not as 481 00:24:54,064 --> 00:24:57,824 Speaker 5: willing to fire people, and he might rearrange the decks 482 00:24:57,864 --> 00:25:00,104 Speaker 5: like they did with Adam What am I saying Adam 483 00:25:00,144 --> 00:25:04,464 Speaker 5: Waltz with Mike Waltz, But they're not the former NSC, 484 00:25:04,624 --> 00:25:07,304 Speaker 5: but they he doesn't want to look like he made 485 00:25:07,384 --> 00:25:11,584 Speaker 5: bad personal decisions like the first time around. So who's up, 486 00:25:11,624 --> 00:25:15,624 Speaker 5: Who's down? Trump leaks Pam Bondies in the shitter. Oh, 487 00:25:15,744 --> 00:25:18,744 Speaker 5: Christy Nome had a two hour call with her deputy 488 00:25:19,264 --> 00:25:23,184 Speaker 5: Cory Luandawski today after this pretty shooting, and it's like, 489 00:25:23,544 --> 00:25:27,344 Speaker 5: ultimately Trump is just not interested in the story that 490 00:25:27,424 --> 00:25:31,064 Speaker 5: he hired a bunch of fools to be his cabinet secretaries. 491 00:25:32,064 --> 00:25:35,424 Speaker 6: So there's another way to do that. Like, I'm thinking 492 00:25:35,424 --> 00:25:37,264 Speaker 6: of two main ways. One is hire a bunch of 493 00:25:37,304 --> 00:25:40,544 Speaker 6: fools and don't fire them. The other way is don't 494 00:25:40,704 --> 00:25:43,904 Speaker 6: hire it's just the thought the fools in the first place. 495 00:25:43,944 --> 00:25:46,184 Speaker 2: But then they may not do what you say. I mean, 496 00:25:46,224 --> 00:25:49,184 Speaker 2: there's another possibility too, is Christine Nome And the other 497 00:25:49,424 --> 00:25:51,864 Speaker 2: if you make an enemy these people and they go 498 00:25:52,024 --> 00:25:54,744 Speaker 2: off and write a book or something like that, you 499 00:25:54,784 --> 00:25:56,024 Speaker 2: want to keep them in the day. 500 00:25:56,544 --> 00:25:58,384 Speaker 3: I think he hired people that can't write a book. 501 00:25:58,544 --> 00:26:02,624 Speaker 2: Jerry, Yeah, I think. You know, they've probably got a 502 00:26:02,624 --> 00:26:04,544 Speaker 2: lot of dirt on Trump and how things operate, and 503 00:26:04,544 --> 00:26:06,784 Speaker 2: the last thing he wants is these people going rogue 504 00:26:06,864 --> 00:26:08,264 Speaker 2: or ranting him out. 505 00:26:08,864 --> 00:26:10,544 Speaker 5: I think a lot of people have already done it, 506 00:26:10,704 --> 00:26:15,144 Speaker 5: Amurosa Monagoult. Then the guy Cliff Simms had his own book, 507 00:26:15,344 --> 00:26:18,184 Speaker 5: The League of Vipers or whatever, Team of Vipers, and 508 00:26:18,224 --> 00:26:21,424 Speaker 5: he's back. You can come back, you can flow in 509 00:26:21,504 --> 00:26:22,024 Speaker 5: and out. 510 00:26:22,344 --> 00:26:23,704 Speaker 3: And plus they leak so much. 511 00:26:23,824 --> 00:26:25,864 Speaker 5: Trump's sort of used to people turning on him and 512 00:26:25,864 --> 00:26:27,544 Speaker 5: then kissing the ring to come back in. I think 513 00:26:27,544 --> 00:26:29,184 Speaker 5: there's nothing he likes more than that. 514 00:26:29,664 --> 00:26:33,224 Speaker 7: I mean, Michael Cohen trying to get apart. That's interesting, right, he. 515 00:26:33,224 --> 00:26:36,144 Speaker 5: Would understand better than anyone too, what it takes to 516 00:26:36,184 --> 00:26:39,464 Speaker 5: get back into Trump's orbit. And he's done him a 517 00:26:39,544 --> 00:26:43,744 Speaker 5: huge favor by saying that Alvin Bragg and James pressured 518 00:26:43,784 --> 00:26:48,584 Speaker 5: him into testifying against Trump. When Trump's case is on appeal, 519 00:26:48,664 --> 00:26:51,824 Speaker 5: the hush money case right now, the star witness says 520 00:26:52,504 --> 00:26:54,704 Speaker 5: there was pressure. There goes the case. 521 00:26:55,064 --> 00:26:59,704 Speaker 2: Trump's very specifically said, I have never been to his 522 00:26:59,744 --> 00:27:03,024 Speaker 2: stupid island. I've never been on a plane, right, And 523 00:27:03,064 --> 00:27:06,704 Speaker 2: then the prosecutor, whose name we don't know, has written that, 524 00:27:06,784 --> 00:27:09,023 Speaker 2: you know, this is a little embarrassing, but Trump has 525 00:27:09,064 --> 00:27:12,264 Speaker 2: been on the playing at least eight times that we 526 00:27:12,344 --> 00:27:15,624 Speaker 2: know about. His name has certainly been manifest and with 527 00:27:15,704 --> 00:27:19,104 Speaker 2: young women, and does that cause any I mean, I 528 00:27:19,144 --> 00:27:20,944 Speaker 2: know he lies a lot, but it's rare that he 529 00:27:20,984 --> 00:27:24,664 Speaker 2: gets caught out so much with a straight out like 530 00:27:25,064 --> 00:27:25,624 Speaker 2: you're lying. 531 00:27:25,824 --> 00:27:27,984 Speaker 6: I'd be curious what you guys think say about that. 532 00:27:28,144 --> 00:27:30,184 Speaker 6: Like we all spend time trying to figure out what's 533 00:27:30,224 --> 00:27:32,384 Speaker 6: happening in other countries. And I felt like there are 534 00:27:32,424 --> 00:27:36,624 Speaker 6: countries that like China maybe before she and less so now, 535 00:27:36,704 --> 00:27:39,544 Speaker 6: but there's countries where there's like a system, like you 536 00:27:39,584 --> 00:27:41,584 Speaker 6: go to the UK and there's you can learn like 537 00:27:41,624 --> 00:27:45,064 Speaker 6: here's how the system works. America maybe used to be 538 00:27:45,224 --> 00:27:48,664 Speaker 6: like this. And then there's countries and there's probably not 539 00:27:48,704 --> 00:27:50,504 Speaker 6: a bright line between these two kinds of countries, but 540 00:27:50,544 --> 00:27:53,864 Speaker 6: there's countries where it's just like who happened to talk 541 00:27:53,904 --> 00:27:57,424 Speaker 6: to who? Like Iraq, you could get like a overall 542 00:27:57,544 --> 00:27:59,744 Speaker 6: like Okay, the Sunnis are here this year, here, the 543 00:27:59,824 --> 00:28:01,944 Speaker 6: Kurds are there. Here are the divisions within each of 544 00:28:01,984 --> 00:28:04,944 Speaker 6: those groups, like you can get that story. But then 545 00:28:05,104 --> 00:28:08,584 Speaker 6: a lot of the real activity is like she is 546 00:28:08,824 --> 00:28:12,263 Speaker 6: working with soon to do business deals and the israelis 547 00:28:12,304 --> 00:28:14,944 Speaker 6: doing business deals like people who are on paper enemies, 548 00:28:15,304 --> 00:28:18,104 Speaker 6: And I remember maybe it's an obvious point, but you 549 00:28:18,144 --> 00:28:21,144 Speaker 6: can't read a poly cybook to find that out. It's 550 00:28:21,304 --> 00:28:24,464 Speaker 6: just who happened to meet who, what weird deal did 551 00:28:24,504 --> 00:28:27,264 Speaker 6: they happen to strike? And with Trump we can have 552 00:28:27,424 --> 00:28:30,504 Speaker 6: like a theory of the case. Probably Stephen Miller seems 553 00:28:30,544 --> 00:28:33,584 Speaker 6: to be the one who has it's weird to even 554 00:28:33,584 --> 00:28:35,824 Speaker 6: call it a theory, but he has like there's things 555 00:28:35,864 --> 00:28:38,224 Speaker 6: he actually wants in the world. No, and maybe you 556 00:28:38,264 --> 00:28:41,344 Speaker 6: could see a handful of others, but mostly it's like 557 00:28:41,984 --> 00:28:45,424 Speaker 6: whoever happened to be in mar A Lago last week 558 00:28:45,464 --> 00:28:46,384 Speaker 6: and happened. 559 00:28:46,104 --> 00:28:48,064 Speaker 7: To say so and such and such and so and so. 560 00:28:48,584 --> 00:28:51,504 Speaker 2: I think it happens a lot in authoritarian regimes, third 561 00:28:51,544 --> 00:28:53,864 Speaker 2: world places where there is no rule of law, there's 562 00:28:53,904 --> 00:28:57,224 Speaker 2: not really so much a system as the strong man decides, right, 563 00:28:57,264 --> 00:28:59,064 Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, I think you know, you see 564 00:28:59,064 --> 00:29:02,904 Speaker 2: that in places like India or you know, Zimbabwe, or 565 00:29:02,944 --> 00:29:05,504 Speaker 2: you know, places like that. But that's not going to 566 00:29:05,544 --> 00:29:08,144 Speaker 2: happen in Germany. It's not like, you know, the social 567 00:29:08,184 --> 00:29:10,864 Speaker 2: democrats are suddenly not going to do something because somebody 568 00:29:10,904 --> 00:29:11,784 Speaker 2: had a conversation. 569 00:29:11,944 --> 00:29:14,464 Speaker 6: So from an intelligence standpoint, how do you deal with that? 570 00:29:14,544 --> 00:29:16,264 Speaker 6: You just have to have a lot of people who 571 00:29:16,304 --> 00:29:17,464 Speaker 6: know who was in what meeting. 572 00:29:18,024 --> 00:29:19,624 Speaker 3: You have to be places. And that's one of the 573 00:29:19,624 --> 00:29:21,704 Speaker 3: things that worries me about media now is a lot 574 00:29:21,744 --> 00:29:24,744 Speaker 3: of these places. No longer can afford to have journalists 575 00:29:24,744 --> 00:29:26,904 Speaker 3: in all of these various countries and stuff, and essentially 576 00:29:26,984 --> 00:29:29,184 Speaker 3: you have to be on the ground and speak the 577 00:29:29,264 --> 00:29:32,104 Speaker 3: language and have those relationships yourself and people who would 578 00:29:32,104 --> 00:29:35,784 Speaker 3: tell you inside baseball. I often argue that the places 579 00:29:35,864 --> 00:29:38,384 Speaker 3: where the US has failed the most in foreign policy 580 00:29:38,384 --> 00:29:40,584 Speaker 3: in the last thirty years are places where there weren't 581 00:29:40,824 --> 00:29:44,624 Speaker 3: Americans and the American embassy. So there's places in Afghanistan 582 00:29:44,664 --> 00:29:47,984 Speaker 3: and Iran and Iraq in North Korea are places where 583 00:29:48,344 --> 00:29:50,584 Speaker 3: there's nobody on the ground that knows who knows who 584 00:29:50,624 --> 00:29:52,864 Speaker 3: and what's going on and what makes sense and what 585 00:29:52,904 --> 00:29:54,944 Speaker 3: doesn't make sense. And so we're looking at it from 586 00:29:54,944 --> 00:29:57,664 Speaker 3: the outside or trying to steal signals or something to 587 00:29:57,664 --> 00:30:00,304 Speaker 3: figure out how the culture works and how decision making works, 588 00:30:00,304 --> 00:30:02,304 Speaker 3: and we often get it wrong because we're not there 589 00:30:02,344 --> 00:30:06,104 Speaker 3: Whereas the one thing that's been beneficial for CIA for years, 590 00:30:06,144 --> 00:30:09,784 Speaker 3: like we had people in Afghanistan when nobody else did, 591 00:30:09,904 --> 00:30:12,664 Speaker 3: and we had people in these countries year after year. 592 00:30:12,704 --> 00:30:16,064 Speaker 3: After you're like small country in Africa, there's a CI 593 00:30:16,264 --> 00:30:18,584 Speaker 3: station there, and there will be next year and next year, 594 00:30:18,864 --> 00:30:20,904 Speaker 3: and those relationships are built up so that we learn 595 00:30:21,024 --> 00:30:23,664 Speaker 3: those things. And the problem is you can't just parachute in. 596 00:30:23,744 --> 00:30:27,304 Speaker 3: Our military does that. They know nothing about naming your 597 00:30:27,304 --> 00:30:30,624 Speaker 3: place Grenada Afghanistan and they all pop in there with 598 00:30:30,704 --> 00:30:32,864 Speaker 3: no language skills or anything and say, Okay, here's what 599 00:30:32,904 --> 00:30:35,144 Speaker 3: way it's going to be. And so I think I 600 00:30:35,184 --> 00:30:36,944 Speaker 3: wonder with the media too, you can't, like you said, 601 00:30:36,944 --> 00:30:39,224 Speaker 3: you can't just read about it and then out what's 602 00:30:39,224 --> 00:30:41,544 Speaker 3: going on based on your original theory. 603 00:30:41,744 --> 00:30:44,544 Speaker 2: I remember with the military in Afghanistan. The military goes 604 00:30:44,584 --> 00:30:46,224 Speaker 2: in and I was sitting in on some talks and 605 00:30:46,264 --> 00:30:48,224 Speaker 2: I'd spend a lot of time there, and they said, 606 00:30:48,224 --> 00:30:51,264 Speaker 2: we're talking to a group of graybeards, right, older sixty 607 00:30:51,344 --> 00:30:53,384 Speaker 2: year old guys who run things, and like we're going 608 00:30:53,424 --> 00:30:56,744 Speaker 2: to bring democracy. And so they're they're like, so you're 609 00:30:56,744 --> 00:30:59,024 Speaker 2: telling me this sixty year old man is like an 610 00:30:59,024 --> 00:31:01,304 Speaker 2: eighteen year old girl will be able to like have 611 00:31:01,384 --> 00:31:03,864 Speaker 2: the same vote as me. She can cancel my vote. 612 00:31:03,904 --> 00:31:07,824 Speaker 2: And they're like, yeah, isn't it great. It's like, whoa, 613 00:31:07,904 --> 00:31:10,384 Speaker 2: you maybe bringing democracy, but that's not the message you 614 00:31:10,384 --> 00:31:13,304 Speaker 2: should because you don't have any idea how their society work. 615 00:31:13,384 --> 00:31:16,544 Speaker 3: Yeah, well here's the question. You covered the Pentagon and 616 00:31:16,704 --> 00:31:19,264 Speaker 3: Heg says, sort of broke culture there. How is that 617 00:31:19,344 --> 00:31:21,944 Speaker 3: going on with a with a culture of the military 618 00:31:21,944 --> 00:31:24,824 Speaker 3: who's very strict and has very strong views. And then 619 00:31:25,104 --> 00:31:26,904 Speaker 3: hag Seth come in, how are things going on in 620 00:31:26,944 --> 00:31:27,504 Speaker 3: the Pentagon? 621 00:31:27,544 --> 00:31:27,744 Speaker 2: Now? 622 00:31:27,824 --> 00:31:30,104 Speaker 5: I think it depends on who you ask, Like, you know, 623 00:31:30,304 --> 00:31:32,544 Speaker 5: I think if you're a minority or a woman, you 624 00:31:32,584 --> 00:31:35,464 Speaker 5: probably hate it. But I've talked to some guys that 625 00:31:35,624 --> 00:31:37,464 Speaker 5: are just like friends that are in the military and 626 00:31:37,504 --> 00:31:39,744 Speaker 5: they're like, we love it there. It's like finally Braun 627 00:31:39,904 --> 00:31:42,944 Speaker 5: is back and it's oh God. So depends on who 628 00:31:42,944 --> 00:31:46,144 Speaker 5: you talk to. If you think being an infantry man 629 00:31:46,584 --> 00:31:49,944 Speaker 5: and having a big gun is cool, great. If you're 630 00:31:49,944 --> 00:31:54,344 Speaker 5: into strategy, if you believe in like technology, warcraft, like 631 00:31:54,464 --> 00:31:59,664 Speaker 5: you know, the future of war, then you're probably not 632 00:32:00,264 --> 00:32:04,984 Speaker 5: as enchanted you could say with what Pete Hegseth values, 633 00:32:05,024 --> 00:32:08,024 Speaker 5: which is a man with a shaved face and like 634 00:32:08,104 --> 00:32:11,424 Speaker 5: abs it's a bit absurd. But yeah, there's there's a 635 00:32:11,424 --> 00:32:14,424 Speaker 5: bit of machismo culture. I think in the military implicitly 636 00:32:14,464 --> 00:32:17,584 Speaker 5: because a lot of men go there to find themselves 637 00:32:17,664 --> 00:32:19,984 Speaker 5: and find their masculinity through. 638 00:32:19,824 --> 00:32:21,384 Speaker 3: Warrant and now they can go to ice. 639 00:32:21,704 --> 00:32:24,304 Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's it seeps into our culture and into 640 00:32:24,384 --> 00:32:28,784 Speaker 5: society and it really defines masculinity. And I just thought 641 00:32:28,864 --> 00:32:32,224 Speaker 5: this story behind Pete Hexad is interesting that he had 642 00:32:32,304 --> 00:32:34,464 Speaker 5: daddy issues and he felt like he needed to go 643 00:32:34,544 --> 00:32:37,904 Speaker 5: out there and do this to prove that he was 644 00:32:37,904 --> 00:32:40,664 Speaker 5: a man because he didn't think his dad was masculine enough. 645 00:32:40,904 --> 00:32:41,584 Speaker 7: Oh is that true? 646 00:32:42,584 --> 00:32:44,864 Speaker 4: Are ruining the world? People? 647 00:32:45,144 --> 00:32:48,184 Speaker 5: Okay, be a good freaking dad if you get the 648 00:32:48,264 --> 00:32:50,424 Speaker 5: choice the chance to be Okay. 649 00:32:50,904 --> 00:32:52,224 Speaker 4: I think that's my closing thought. 650 00:32:52,744 --> 00:33:00,064 Speaker 6: Great to see you, Tara, talk more often. All right, But. 651 00:32:59,864 --> 00:33:05,064 Speaker 1: Commission Implausible was produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Cipher, 652 00:33:05,344 --> 00:33:10,424 Speaker 1: and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Implausible 653 00:33:10,424 --> 00:33:13,904 Speaker 1: It's a production of honorable mention and abominable pictures for 654 00:33:14,064 --> 00:33:15,224 Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts.