Speaker 1: Welcome to the Piketon Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio and
Speaker 1: Katie Studios, Season two, Episode eight, Expert Roundtable. I'm Courtney Armstrong,
Speaker 1: a television producer at Katie Studios, with Stephanie Lydecker and
Speaker 1: Jeff Shane. On June twenty first, twenty twenty one, accused
Speaker 1: brother George Wagner the fourth appeared in court for a
Speaker 1: pre trial hearing in the Roden murder case. Five hearing
Speaker 1: long and a number of defense pre trial motions. It
Speaker 1: was the first full hearing to take place in George's
Speaker 1: younger brother, Jake Wagner, played guilty to killing five of
Speaker 1: the eight slain members of the Roden family in April
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, and it was Jake's plea and what he
Speaker 1: potentially told authorities that became the defense's primary focus during
Speaker 1: these proceedings. I think we need more than sixty days
Speaker 1: to investigate whatever we learned Jake's profit because we have
Speaker 1: not been provided at even though it's been available for
Speaker 1: two longs, we have not received that we are entitled
Speaker 1: to that under Criminal Rule sixteen. And once we get it,
Speaker 1: and I understand it's more than ten hours of recording statements.
Speaker 1: So once we get that, we need an adequate amount
Speaker 1: of time to investigate whatever we need to investigate, and
Speaker 1: will certainly comply with our discovery obligations the state degree
Speaker 1: to work towards providing George Wagner's attorneys with Jake's confession.
Speaker 1: The court also scheduled George's next motion hearing to take
Speaker 1: place on September thirteenth, But before court was dismissed, Judge
Speaker 1: Randy Deering provided one critical piece of information for George
Speaker 1: moving forward. We have said a trial date in this
Speaker 1: case for four with accused brother George Wagner said to
Speaker 1: begin trial on April fourth, twenty twenty two. There will
Speaker 1: surely be a lot to cover moving forward. But just
Speaker 1: a few days before George Wagner's most recent hearing, we
Speaker 1: got some of our regular contributors together for discussion. Reporters
Speaker 1: Angeinette Levy and Jodi Barr, and criminal forensic expert Joseph Morgan.
Speaker 1: We covered a range of topics that spanned their years
Speaker 1: covering the road and murder case. We started out with
Speaker 1: a talk about some of the details they had heard
Speaker 1: leading up to George Wagner's tile last week and what
Speaker 1: they expected the outcome to be a Jeanette Leavey started
Speaker 1: us off some documents filed by George the Fourth's lawyers,
Speaker 1: saying they still haven't received Jake's statements to law enforcement,
Speaker 1: and they were led to believe that Jake's interviews were
Speaker 1: between ten and eighteen hours, So they subpoenaed Greg Myers,
Speaker 1: who is the lead counsel for Jake, and they filed
Speaker 1: emotion demanding that the additional discovery, including Jake's interviews, be
Speaker 1: turned over. So we don't know the veracity of his
Speaker 1: statements or how truthful they are, other than he allegedly
Speaker 1: led them to the vehicle used and the weapons used.
Speaker 1: So I mean he did quite a bit of talking. Jody.
Speaker 1: How rare is it for one attorney to subpoena another attorney.
Speaker 1: I don't recall a specific instance of that, but I
Speaker 1: mean that is a clear indication that one side is
Speaker 1: not feel that they are getting the information they need
Speaker 1: to defend their clients. So I think it's worth a
Speaker 1: deeper look at you know, why either the state or
Speaker 1: Jake's own attorneys are not playing ball here. That's been
Speaker 1: to complaint the entire time that defense attorneys have complained
Speaker 1: consistently that they're not getting material as quickly as they
Speaker 1: would like, and you would think they would just make
Speaker 1: a copy and send it over. Yeah, I mean, and
Speaker 1: in this one, I would venture a guess that it
Speaker 1: was at least audio recorded, perhaps if not video recorded,
Speaker 1: this statement that Jake gave. So, I mean, you know
Speaker 1: they need to produce this. I don't know how you
Speaker 1: know these three defense teams can adequately prepare for trial
Speaker 1: when there's this huge evidence dump from Jake Wagner's mouth
Speaker 1: that apparently they don't have access to. Right now, you've
Speaker 1: got one of the four saying I did it. I
Speaker 1: did it, and you know what did he do exactly?
Speaker 1: We didn't hear it in court. You know, maybe he
Speaker 1: told that story in the statements, but ten to eighteen
Speaker 1: hours it's a heck of a long time to have
Speaker 1: a conversation cover a lot of ground in that time.
Speaker 1: So I had a quote normal pre trial, what happens?
Speaker 1: What's the broad strokes? They usually ask the defendant if
Speaker 1: they're happy with their lawyer, and they're meeting with their
Speaker 1: lawyer enough, and they discussed the pace of discovery and
Speaker 1: what have you. But I feel like in this case,
Speaker 1: nothing ever happens. I mean they go into chambers for
Speaker 1: an hour and then they come out and put something
Speaker 1: on the record. Because these are death penalty cases. Now
Speaker 1: they're really not death penalty cases because they've taken that
Speaker 1: off the table. If Jake testifies against everyone, they typically
Speaker 1: are pretty uneventful. We've had some sparks fly in some
Speaker 1: of the motions hearings, but I haven't. You know, these
Speaker 1: pre trials tend to be pretty dry. Yeah, I thought
Speaker 1: that too until what was at April the twenty first
Speaker 1: of this year, the night before Jake Wagner played guilty.
Speaker 1: I was told by some family members that BCI reached
Speaker 1: out and said, you want to be at the courthouse
Speaker 1: tomorrow in Pike County. And then that was just docketed
Speaker 1: as a pre trial hearing and there was no indication
Speaker 1: that Jake Wagner would be pleading guilty other than the
Speaker 1: state calling the family and suggesting they'd be there. So
Speaker 1: that actually turned into the end of his prosecution. So, man,
Speaker 1: I think if you get a call from the family
Speaker 1: any one of these pre trials, it just seemed like
Speaker 1: a routine. You know, where are we in this prosecution?
Speaker 1: And does everybody have what they need so we can
Speaker 1: try this thing. Man, I think you got to be
Speaker 1: careful in this case. You don't know what may come next.
Speaker 1: I mean, Jake, was I think a complete surprise to everybody,
Speaker 1: even the family. What were your thoughts on that day, Joseph,
Speaker 1: None of us were expecting this. Do you remember we
Speaker 1: were all texting between one another saying what the hell
Speaker 1: is going on? Because this seemed dropped like thunder out
Speaker 1: of the heavens and we never saw it coming. I
Speaker 1: didn't certainly, I had no idea that this was about
Speaker 1: to happen. So you could knock me over with a
Speaker 1: feather that day. There is a distinct possibility that he
Speaker 1: could come in and plead. I don't think he's going
Speaker 1: to plead guilty. If if he was going to plead guilty,
Speaker 1: I don't think his lawyer would be like filing a
Speaker 1: demand for discovery in a trial date. So just my opinion.
Speaker 1: But what do I know, Probably get out there and
Speaker 1: something crazy. I'll have it's the pike to a massacre.
Speaker 1: Who knows. You never know where this is going next.
Speaker 1: Covering this story, who did you guys first think did it?
Speaker 1: I thought it could have been related to the pot,
Speaker 1: you know, the marijuana growing operation. But I had been
Speaker 1: told early on by some law enforcement sources, federal law
Speaker 1: enforcement sources, that the cartel thing wasn't true because they
Speaker 1: ran that down because of the level of violence that
Speaker 1: was involved in it, and it didn't seem like messaging
Speaker 1: so much to me. As you would see with an
Speaker 1: organized crime hit, there's generally something that will be left
Speaker 1: that is substantial, you know, the elements that we've talked
Speaker 1: about quite a bit relative to overkill in cases I've
Speaker 1: seen and then you displayed before us. It seemed very
Speaker 1: intimate to me, very very intimate, and cartels loved their money,
Speaker 1: but they're not intimate. Also with intimacy comes that level
Speaker 1: of familiarity and the fact that in this tight little space,
Speaker 1: you know, and it is a tight little space when
Speaker 1: you travel down that road, you have these locations where
Speaker 1: all these people inhabited these very specific pinpoint locations, and
Speaker 1: there's other structures and other families around that area. They
Speaker 1: knew where there were going. There were no mistakes. Many times,
Speaker 1: if somebody's not familiar with an area and they're going
Speaker 1: to go out and kill somebody, you'll have mistakes. Along
Speaker 1: the way, but they had pinpointed four separate locations, and
Speaker 1: that again goes back. I think there's connectivity with that
Speaker 1: seed of intimacy. The whole thing about the dog's not barking,
Speaker 1: because they said those dogs would have. That was just
Speaker 1: very strange. We knew there was a baby, We knew
Speaker 1: there was a child, you know, we knew about the
Speaker 1: little girl, and we knew about the Wagoners. But I
Speaker 1: didn't hear the Wagoner name and any association with the
Speaker 1: murders or suspected association until May of twenty seventeen. And
Speaker 1: then Jody was at your experience as well. I got
Speaker 1: over there heavily in June July, right after the murders,
Speaker 1: and I mean people you talk with, even the family
Speaker 1: members had already and I don't know what the reasons,
Speaker 1: but it had already suspected something to do with the Wagoners.
Speaker 1: I mean they had already floated, you know, the Wagner
Speaker 1: farm out as being the base of operations for this family.
Speaker 1: There was also a drug case in Adams County, which
Speaker 1: is just right next door to Pike, that the rumor
Speaker 1: Mill believed could have been linked, you know, to the Wagoners.
Speaker 1: The Wagner farm or at least you know what happened
Speaker 1: over as far as the drug angle that ended up
Speaker 1: not being connected in the end, or as far as
Speaker 1: we know it's not connected. But you know, we went
Speaker 1: as far as you know, covering a court hearing over
Speaker 1: there for someone who had a substantial amount of drugs
Speaker 1: on them. So anyway, there was a lot swirling around.
Speaker 1: But the Wagner name. We heard that early on that
Speaker 1: some people suspected that they were somehow involved. But you know,
Speaker 1: back then, it's it's like, how do you even where
Speaker 1: do you start on something like that? I went out
Speaker 1: past that, you know, the Flying w farm. You try
Speaker 1: to dig in the property records and background these people,
Speaker 1: and first off, there wasn't a lot to background with
Speaker 1: these folks. And secondly, it's just you know, what you
Speaker 1: did find didn't scream mass murderers. I didn't see anything
Speaker 1: there that would cause me to continue digging. It was
Speaker 1: nothing that I found, at least in looking into the
Speaker 1: Wagner family that I went okay there to smoking gun.
Speaker 1: The rumors are true. It's just you collected it as information,
Speaker 1: You try to vet it, you get nowhere, and you
Speaker 1: just move on and then Andrewette, Yeah, I'm curious your perspective.
Speaker 1: I'm starting to develop an idea of them. I started
Speaker 1: looking into them, and you know, when you see that
Speaker 1: Jake and George and the house and the mom lived
Speaker 1: there with them, I was kind of like, oh, that's weird.
Speaker 1: And then I remember being out there and hearing a
Speaker 1: little bit about, you know, how they lived, and learning
Speaker 1: more about George's wife now ex wife. It all started
Speaker 1: to kind of sound very interesting. So I remember specifically
Speaker 1: going up to the Flying w and you go up
Speaker 1: there and it's like this steep I would say, it's
Speaker 1: like a sixty or seventy degree kind of like driveway
Speaker 1: gravel driveway, and driving up there and being basically told
Speaker 1: to get off the property, you know, just seeing if
Speaker 1: they wanted to comment. So it was a little cre be,
Speaker 1: a little scary. I mean, it's a beautiful property, don't
Speaker 1: get me wrong, But when your cell phone doesn't work
Speaker 1: and you're driving up somewhere to go try to talk
Speaker 1: to somebody, and somebody you know, basically comes out and
Speaker 1: tells you to get out of there, I felt a
Speaker 1: little weird. You know. Obviously it wasn't very welcoming. I
Speaker 1: started digging around on Facebook quite a bit too, and
Speaker 1: it didn't seem like on the surface that you would
Speaker 1: suspect anything. You know, the mom Angela was running some
Speaker 1: type of little organic farm type thing at that Peterson
Speaker 1: Road house. You know, she was trying to breed animals
Speaker 1: and sell them, and she had pictures of the children
Speaker 1: on there on Facebook. So, you know, at first it
Speaker 1: didn't seem weird. But then I contacted her and said, look,
Speaker 1: you know, I'd love to do an interview with you.
Speaker 1: And then some of the things Angela Wagner said to
Speaker 1: me on Facebook Messenger kind of made me feel a
Speaker 1: little uncomfortable, the way she was trying to dictate what
Speaker 1: I said, what I would be reporting about our conversations
Speaker 1: on Facebook messenger. She said, you know you are not
Speaker 1: to report any of this what I said. You know,
Speaker 1: I do not give you permit. Shouldn't report anything I
Speaker 1: just told you. She said that she was being slander
Speaker 1: she and her family. Do you think Jake is lying
Speaker 1: about being personally responsible for five of the eight? I
Speaker 1: don't know what his incentive to lie about that is.
Speaker 1: I mean, is he that afraid of the death penalty?
Speaker 1: The economics of that equation just does not make sense
Speaker 1: to me where he would openly confess to murdering five people.
Speaker 1: Probably the worst act you could commit as a human
Speaker 1: is taking the life of another, and he did that
Speaker 1: five times over. I think we got a good idea
Speaker 1: of what happened here, and Jake Wagner told his story
Speaker 1: in court, and he took the guilty plea and said
Speaker 1: he did it, you know, five of the eight. You know.
Speaker 1: I think that's the best shot we've had so far
Speaker 1: at some confirmation of really peeling this story back. I
Speaker 1: think the world wants to know what happened when they
Speaker 1: woke up that morning, put this plan in place, Who
Speaker 1: went where, who did what? As I think all of
Speaker 1: us have done since April twenty sixteen when this happened,
Speaker 1: as you roll around these scenarios in your mind, trying
Speaker 1: to figure out, first off, what's the mindset of someone
Speaker 1: to pull this off and then to just run free
Speaker 1: for what two years afterward and you live with this
Speaker 1: every day of your life. It may have been passion driven,
Speaker 1: and it was certainly anger driven, but it wasn't like
Speaker 1: somebody just suddenly flew off the handle and decided to
Speaker 1: go and visit hell down upon the roads. This is
Speaker 1: something that took planning, in my estimation at least, So
Speaker 1: you begin thinking this confederacy. What do you think about
Speaker 1: when you're moving from someplace like the last house that
Speaker 1: you hit with multiple people in it, and then you
Speaker 1: drive out to Kenneth's house at some distance away. Now,
Speaker 1: what does that conversation consist of? You talk about what
Speaker 1: music you're gonna listen to on the radio and talk
Speaker 1: about who's going to handle what. I don't know who
Speaker 1: pulled the trigger. Jake said he killed five of them.
Speaker 1: But I can't imagine, to Jody's point, why in the
Speaker 1: world that man would say that he killed five people
Speaker 1: in an open court and he didn't do it. So
Speaker 1: that leaves us with the other three who would do
Speaker 1: this and do it in the presence of these babes
Speaker 1: and just leave them. And I can only imagine having
Speaker 1: wallowed around about in that blood. I don't know. It
Speaker 1: leaves me dumbfounded, and that's hard to do. Hannah Gilly,
Speaker 1: she was attacked on the only second to Chris Roden.
Speaker 1: She was shot this woman five times in the face,
Speaker 1: which is an unbelievable overkill. So the thought is a
Speaker 1: why and then also is it possible it would be
Speaker 1: a connection or rage because her brother, Charlie Gilly is
Speaker 1: the father of Hannah Roden's new baby. That would be
Speaker 1: my suspicion, But I really don't know for sure. I mean,
Speaker 1: I would just be speculating because of that connection. There's
Speaker 1: a whole lot more going on. And you know, Hannah
Speaker 1: Gilly shot five times in the face. It's you know,
Speaker 1: you look at the angle, Well, is that a message
Speaker 1: being sent? One shot is a message? You know? Five?
Speaker 1: I don't know what you're doing at that point. Jay
Speaker 1: Wagner at least set out with a plan that night
Speaker 1: to do what he did to five of the eight.
Speaker 1: You know, he killed the other three. You know, I
Speaker 1: just I just hope we all, you know, get these answers.
Speaker 1: Now that springs us to another point. I'm going to
Speaker 1: reflect back to an old, old case real quick that
Speaker 1: many people will be aware of and absolutely horrendous. And
Speaker 1: it's Dennis Rader with the BTK killing now in Kansas.
Speaker 1: He stood up and he said, I will, in fact
Speaker 1: admit to everything I've done since I don't know, nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy three or seventy four. Whinner it was he started
Speaker 1: this horrific murder scree, his serial killings. They put this
Speaker 1: one caveat in there. They said, okay, that's fine, we'll
Speaker 1: take death off the table, and you have to stand
Speaker 1: in court and you have to stand and deliver. At
Speaker 1: this moment, Tom and he was compelled to what is
Speaker 1: framed as an elocution. He had to stand there, and
Speaker 1: it's one of the most chilling things you've ever seen,
Speaker 1: because this guy's a psychopath. And so when you listen
Speaker 1: to him give the details behind these horrific crimes he
Speaker 1: participated in, it really makes you wonder if you want
Speaker 1: this thing that people talk about. The frame is closure
Speaker 1: because it's a horror show. But in this particular case,
Speaker 1: if this is the route you're going to go, I
Speaker 1: think that these individuals should be compelled to allocute. Let's
Speaker 1: think about these babies that are left behind, these children.
Speaker 1: Don't you think they're going to one an explanation at
Speaker 1: some point in time? I mean, yeah, I know the
Speaker 1: community does, but what about these kids. Let's just assume
Speaker 1: that they do get convictions on all fronts here, what
Speaker 1: do you do? You push them off into a deep
Speaker 1: dark hole and they're never to be heard from again,
Speaker 1: and we'll never hear anything else about this. And people
Speaker 1: keep talking about, well, we'll never hear the true story
Speaker 1: because the deal was cut and they weren't compelled the perpetrators,
Speaker 1: if it is them and they are so convicted, they
Speaker 1: were never compelled to say, Okay, this is what happened,
Speaker 1: this is how the planning took place, and this is
Speaker 1: what we did that night, And those questions will always exist.
Speaker 1: And on a broader note, you're always going to have,
Speaker 1: you know, people sitting in their basement with ten foil
Speaker 1: hats on saying well, it wasn't them. You know, they'll
Speaker 1: be crazy conspiracy theories that will be created for years
Speaker 1: and years to come. But what actually happened that ninment.
Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break here. We'll be
Speaker 1: back in a moment. What's your theory on who the
Speaker 1: mastermind is? I don't want to indict anybody, obviously, but
Speaker 1: we have Jake Wagner confessing and implicating all of his
Speaker 1: family members in this, at least Billy Angela and his
Speaker 1: older brother, George, the fourth Angela. If if you really
Speaker 1: kind of watched these hearings very closely, she was apparently
Speaker 1: on jail calls. She was calling her mother against the
Speaker 1: judge's orders and telling Rita Newcome, you don't have to
Speaker 1: testify against us. People who are completely innocent, they don't
Speaker 1: call their mothers and say you don't have to testify
Speaker 1: against us. And her mother came out in court and
Speaker 1: said she asked me to lie about notarizing the documents,
Speaker 1: the custody documents, the forged custody documents that have been
Speaker 1: discussed in this case. It was stated they were declaration documents,
Speaker 1: and it was stated in Rita Newcome's case because she
Speaker 1: was the one accused of charged with forgery or obstruction.
Speaker 1: It said that it was declarations for the children of
Speaker 1: Hannah Rodin, George the Fourth and Jake And so basically
Speaker 1: these documents designated a guardian should any of them die.
Speaker 1: And these documents had been signed and notarized nineteen days
Speaker 1: before the murders, and it designated the children go to
Speaker 1: Angela should any of them die. That's just one of
Speaker 1: those puzzle pieces that I felt like showed that Angela
Speaker 1: she may have been the driving force here since she
Speaker 1: was the one that had the Facebook message that's been
Speaker 1: referenced in court. That showed that Hannah said they'd have
Speaker 1: to kill me first before I gave up my child,
Speaker 1: and she showed that message to Jake. Angie Kaneppa said
Speaker 1: that in court when Jake pleaded guilty, the next thing
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about was Alaska. When they all
Speaker 1: up and moved to your point together sold all of
Speaker 1: their stuff. I went, whoo, this doesn't look good on paper.
Speaker 1: It looks like what you would suspect someone involved in
Speaker 1: a crime like this would do is to, you know,
Speaker 1: go to the other side of the world. So, I mean,
Speaker 1: that was just my initial impression of it. But to
Speaker 1: end up picking everything you own up and throwing in
Speaker 1: a multiple trailers and moving man to Alaska, that's not like,
Speaker 1: you know, moving just out of state. That's that's a
Speaker 1: long way to go, and then to come right back.
Speaker 1: I would love to know more about the reasons behind that.
Speaker 1: You know, did they feel the heat at that point
Speaker 1: in time? Were they really trying to get away? I
Speaker 1: think what I'm so interested in is Jake's wife, who
Speaker 1: we don't know all that much about. But obviously he
Speaker 1: goes to Alaska, meets a woman and then ends up
Speaker 1: marrying her. This other woman, I mean, what were those
Speaker 1: conversations like I mean, I would love to be able
Speaker 1: to sit down and talk with her now about you know,
Speaker 1: she watched that video feed of Jake pleading guilty to
Speaker 1: these murders. I mean, if you hid that from her too,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like a whole other level, another layer
Speaker 1: on this sadistic, twisted person that he turned out to be. Well.
Speaker 1: Elizabeth then came back to Pike County with the family,
Speaker 1: and then she went to the police claiming threats, harassment,
Speaker 1: and potential identity them right, It's been very frustrating because
Speaker 1: that case is now years old and they won't release
Speaker 1: any more records about it or any more of the
Speaker 1: report than just the first page, which basically says a
Speaker 1: name and you know, a complaint lodged. It doesn't say
Speaker 1: anything else. I talked to a lawyer about it a
Speaker 1: while back who did not think it would be successful
Speaker 1: to pursue obtaining that. It's still listed as an open
Speaker 1: case even though it's been many years. This is, of
Speaker 1: course all speculation on my part. But because Jake's wife,
Speaker 1: Elizabeth filed those harassment charges because she was living with
Speaker 1: Jake Anna's family in Alaska, came back to piked in.
Speaker 1: It seems like a possibility she could be the informant.
Speaker 1: Who do you think the informant or informants are I
Speaker 1: think Jake Wagner's wife. We have efforted to find her
Speaker 1: so many times, so many ways, and a roadblock after roadblock,
Speaker 1: we just we haven't been able to speak with her. Well,
Speaker 1: I've kind of suspected for a while now that it
Speaker 1: was it was her. And then what I thought was interesting,
Speaker 1: and this was said in court, someone or more than
Speaker 1: one person refers to the informant as she right, Ryan Scheider,
Speaker 1: I think said she during his testimony last August. So
Speaker 1: that that is what was the final thing to lead
Speaker 1: me to believe it was her. But it could be
Speaker 1: could be wrong, I don't know, could be a curveball
Speaker 1: out of nowhere. Though. What if it's, you know, one
Speaker 1: of the grandmothers. I know that's hard to believe. I
Speaker 1: don't know how impossible it is about the grandmother's a.
Speaker 1: Obviously they're also tight knit, and I do think it's interesting.
Speaker 1: Frederica has not said one word to my knowledge publicly
Speaker 1: since Jake has made his confession. But even with Riata Newcome,
Speaker 1: I can't imagine the pressure she was under when she
Speaker 1: had to talk about you know, my daughter said this
Speaker 1: and if she did have something to say, and they
Speaker 1: were pressing her for a long time. Again, that's why,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like there's so much left unknown with this,
Speaker 1: and one day down the road we could rip this
Speaker 1: case file open and when it's all said and done
Speaker 1: and gets s'more the truth here. Antonett and Jody, I
Speaker 1: know you live pretty local t Pikeson and have been there. Joseph,
Speaker 1: can you tell us what your recent first trip was like.
Speaker 1: It's not unlike a lot of Appalachian towns, you know,
Speaker 1: are in communities. It's you can tell that, you know,
Speaker 1: there's church just about on every corner. And the people
Speaker 1: I found were very warm. They didn't put it into vernacular.
Speaker 1: They didn't give us the side eye when we got there,
Speaker 1: you know, they were very friendly and welcoming. I even
Speaker 1: now live in southern Appalachia, so I wasn't too far
Speaker 1: removed from my home and from that location. But when
Speaker 1: I got there, from the perspective of a forensics guy
Speaker 1: and a death investigator, everything has got to be contextualized
Speaker 1: for the environment which it occurs. You know, these horrible
Speaker 1: events and horrible events occur everywhere. No one is immune
Speaker 1: to them. But you know, for me going to piked
Speaker 1: in and kind of seeing it, you kind of get
Speaker 1: a feel for the routes that people would run and
Speaker 1: that there are a limited number of points of egress
Speaker 1: I think to get from point eight to point B.
Speaker 1: It's not like you've got multiple surface roads where you
Speaker 1: can get to a variety of different locations. Essentially, there's
Speaker 1: one way in and one way out. This is not
Speaker 1: a location where if you pulled in your average Joe
Speaker 1: and just slapped them down, they're going to know where
Speaker 1: to go. It informs you as an investigator that whoever
Speaker 1: ran these routes and ran the route knew the area
Speaker 1: because there's several locations along Union Hill where essentially only
Speaker 1: one car can pass us at a time in certain locations,
Speaker 1: particularly depended upon the vehicle. And one other note, if
Speaker 1: there's someone that is not of there, of that place,
Speaker 1: you will be noticed. You will be noticed. People will
Speaker 1: take notice of your presence there because it's not heavily populated,
Speaker 1: it's sparse, and so to move through that space, you
Speaker 1: would have to know where all the twists and turns are.
Speaker 1: You'd have to know what to avoid, what's the point
Speaker 1: of view that someone might have a particular location. All
Speaker 1: of these things are going to play into any kind
Speaker 1: of scenario that you're constructing in your mind where you're thinking,
Speaker 1: how can I go about getting away with a slaughter.
Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back
Speaker 1: in a moment. So, if the four Wagoners committed this
Speaker 1: crime together, who was watching Jay and Hannah Rodan's daughter?
Speaker 1: Was she in the car which is unimaginable, or wash
Speaker 1: she home? I mean that's a special kind of crazy
Speaker 1: if you're going to take children along to kill eight
Speaker 1: people and just have them in their car seats. So
Speaker 1: I can't imagine anyone would do such a thing. So
Speaker 1: I would think somebody had to have been with those children.
Speaker 1: Hopefully we'll get that question answered. I mean, in the end,
Speaker 1: does it really matter now it's been alleged many times
Speaker 1: that each one of them had a role in this.
Speaker 1: I mean we've kind of heard that discussed before. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because your question of doesn't matter. I mean in my mind,
Speaker 1: what would certainly is if someone outside the four is
Speaker 1: because then that person has been living with this secret
Speaker 1: knowledge that is hard to imagine. Bearing, Oh sure. I
Speaker 1: mean it's not like you just dial up a babysitter
Speaker 1: and say, hey, can you come by and watch my
Speaker 1: kids for the night. I mean, can you imagine are
Speaker 1: my grandkids? I mean, you would think that they would
Speaker 1: have spoken to that person already if there was a
Speaker 1: fifth person watching the children or something like that. Lenny
Speaker 1: kind of closing bites Enginette. Any thoughts of this moment, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I would love to see what Jake told
Speaker 1: the investigators. What was behind this? Was it just the child?
Speaker 1: And why? And I know why Jake? I mean I
Speaker 1: kind of know why. Jake confessed he found God. That's
Speaker 1: what I was. That's what I heard, So don't blay
Speaker 1: all though. You know, if he ever covered a bond
Speaker 1: hearing it, I think some kind of fine God. I
Speaker 1: think some find God. And I guess he found he
Speaker 1: really found him. How about that? It will be interesting
Speaker 1: to see if it was more than just the child,
Speaker 1: because to wipe out eight people over a child is
Speaker 1: you know, if that's it, that's a whole different type
Speaker 1: of thing that I'm you know, you hear about domestic
Speaker 1: violence incidents over children and divorces going ugly and a
Speaker 1: spouse kills another spouse over control, But to kill an
Speaker 1: entire family because you want one child is it is
Speaker 1: hard to wrap your head around if that is indeed
Speaker 1: all this was about. So right now, all we know
Speaker 1: is what Jake Wagner did, So I think we can
Speaker 1: all speak with certainty that he had a major role
Speaker 1: in this. But I mean, if you're looking at trying
Speaker 1: to make sense of this, and you know it's the
Speaker 1: custody issue, but then on top of that, it does
Speaker 1: loop Hannah Guilly in to some extent because her brother
Speaker 1: apparently he got this. You know, Hannah Rodin pregnant. You
Speaker 1: know it's not just Hannah and this child, as Hannah,
Speaker 1: her mother, her father, you know, all centered around this baby.
Speaker 1: Everyone who could get custody of this baby. You know
Speaker 1: that may be driving him at that point. But then
Speaker 1: you now have Hannah Guilly looped in through her brother
Speaker 1: and that's tied to Hannah Rodin. You know, I don't
Speaker 1: is that enough. I mean, you know what if it
Speaker 1: comes out that and I know we all we've all
Speaker 1: heard the theory from the from the state at this
Speaker 1: point in time that this was a concerted effort by
Speaker 1: four members of the Wagner family. But you know what
Speaker 1: if it comes out that you know, Jake was truly
Speaker 1: the trigger guy, and you know the rest are sort
Speaker 1: of on the periphery helping and supporting. You know. Again,
Speaker 1: I mean, this is just me shooting the breeze about this,
Speaker 1: but you know, it's just you try to put yourself
Speaker 1: in that mindset of doing what we know Jake did.
Speaker 1: At this point in time, and the result of whoever's actions,
Speaker 1: you still got eight people dead and children laying in
Speaker 1: the blood and the you know, the aftermath of that.
Speaker 1: It's a hell of a situation over there. We'll continue
Speaker 1: to monitor movements in George Wagner's trial, as well as
Speaker 1: any developments regarding accused father Billy Wagner and accused mother
Speaker 1: Angela Wagner. But while we wait, we want to turn
Speaker 1: our attention back to the Michael Morian's story that we
Speaker 1: covered in episode seven. I really thought there was no way,
Speaker 1: there was no way this could be going on for
Speaker 1: so long and nobody did anything about it. One of
Speaker 1: the best lawyers in a politician, and a sitting judge
Speaker 1: all possibly involved in this network. That's how deep this went,
Speaker 1: and that's when we knew we needed to get more
Speaker 1: women who had been through this experience to talk about
Speaker 1: what they said they'd been through with Michael Moran. We'll
Speaker 1: have part two of that next week. For more information
Speaker 1: on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram
Speaker 1: at Katie Underscore Studios. The piked In Massacre Returned to
Speaker 1: Pike County is executive produced by Stephanie Lydecker and me
Speaker 1: Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by executive producer Jared Aston.
Speaker 1: Additional producing by Jeff Shane, Andrew Becker and Chris Graves.
Speaker 1: The piked In Massacre Returned to Pike County is a
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.