WEBVTT - A Pike County Roundtable 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.440 Welcome to the Piketon Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio and 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:10.400 Katie Studios, Season two, Episode eight, Expert Roundtable. I'm Courtney Armstrong, 0:00:10.440 --> 0:00:13.720 a television producer at Katie Studios, with Stephanie Lydecker and 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:17.720 Jeff Shane. On June twenty first, twenty twenty one, accused 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:20.319 brother George Wagner the fourth appeared in court for a 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:27.880 pre trial hearing in the Roden murder case. Five hearing 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:33.239 long and a number of defense pre trial motions. It 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:35.639 was the first full hearing to take place in George's 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:38.640 younger brother, Jake Wagner, played guilty to killing five of 0:00:38.720 --> 0:00:41.280 the eight slain members of the Roden family in April 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:44.479 twenty sixteen, and it was Jake's plea and what he 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:48.000 potentially told authorities that became the defense's primary focus during 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:50.680 these proceedings. I think we need more than sixty days 0:00:50.720 --> 0:00:54.520 to investigate whatever we learned Jake's profit because we have 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:57.040 not been provided at even though it's been available for 0:00:57.120 --> 0:01:00.560 two longs, we have not received that we are entitled 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:03.760 to that under Criminal Rule sixteen. And once we get it, 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:08.040 and I understand it's more than ten hours of recording statements. 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:10.240 So once we get that, we need an adequate amount 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:13.319 of time to investigate whatever we need to investigate, and 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:17.920 will certainly comply with our discovery obligations the state degree 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:21.640 to work towards providing George Wagner's attorneys with Jake's confession. 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:24.840 The court also scheduled George's next motion hearing to take 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:29.120 place on September thirteenth, But before court was dismissed, Judge 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:32.559 Randy Deering provided one critical piece of information for George 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:35.280 moving forward. We have said a trial date in this 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:43.480 case for four with accused brother George Wagner said to 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:46.119 begin trial on April fourth, twenty twenty two. There will 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:49.040 surely be a lot to cover moving forward. But just 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:52.000 a few days before George Wagner's most recent hearing, we 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:55.640 got some of our regular contributors together for discussion. Reporters 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:59.559 Angeinette Levy and Jodi Barr, and criminal forensic expert Joseph Morgan. 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:02.160 We covered a range of topics that spanned their years 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:04.640 covering the road and murder case. We started out with 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:06.800 a talk about some of the details they had heard 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:09.240 leading up to George Wagner's tile last week and what 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:12.200 they expected the outcome to be a Jeanette Leavey started 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:15.920 us off some documents filed by George the Fourth's lawyers, 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:20.280 saying they still haven't received Jake's statements to law enforcement, 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:22.880 and they were led to believe that Jake's interviews were 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:27.320 between ten and eighteen hours, So they subpoenaed Greg Myers, 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:32.640 who is the lead counsel for Jake, and they filed 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:37.560 emotion demanding that the additional discovery, including Jake's interviews, be 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:41.360 turned over. So we don't know the veracity of his 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:44.919 statements or how truthful they are, other than he allegedly 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:48.480 led them to the vehicle used and the weapons used. 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:51.600 So I mean he did quite a bit of talking. Jody. 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:54.800 How rare is it for one attorney to subpoena another attorney. 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:57.600 I don't recall a specific instance of that, but I 0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:00.200 mean that is a clear indication that one side is 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:02.720 not feel that they are getting the information they need 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:06.160 to defend their clients. So I think it's worth a 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:09.680 deeper look at you know, why either the state or 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:13.000 Jake's own attorneys are not playing ball here. That's been 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:16.840 to complaint the entire time that defense attorneys have complained 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:20.640 consistently that they're not getting material as quickly as they 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:22.760 would like, and you would think they would just make 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:25.320 a copy and send it over. Yeah, I mean, and 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:28.240 in this one, I would venture a guess that it 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:31.720 was at least audio recorded, perhaps if not video recorded, 0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:34.320 this statement that Jake gave. So, I mean, you know 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:36.640 they need to produce this. I don't know how you 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:40.480 know these three defense teams can adequately prepare for trial 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:44.280 when there's this huge evidence dump from Jake Wagner's mouth 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:47.640 that apparently they don't have access to. Right now, you've 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:49.240 got one of the four saying I did it. I 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:51.680 did it, and you know what did he do exactly? 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:53.560 We didn't hear it in court. You know, maybe he 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:56.920 told that story in the statements, but ten to eighteen 0:03:56.960 --> 0:03:58.880 hours it's a heck of a long time to have 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:01.560 a conversation cover a lot of ground in that time. 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:05.600 So I had a quote normal pre trial, what happens? 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:09.480 What's the broad strokes? They usually ask the defendant if 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:11.920 they're happy with their lawyer, and they're meeting with their 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:15.800 lawyer enough, and they discussed the pace of discovery and 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:18.080 what have you. But I feel like in this case, 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:21.240 nothing ever happens. I mean they go into chambers for 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:23.559 an hour and then they come out and put something 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:26.680 on the record. Because these are death penalty cases. Now 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:29.520 they're really not death penalty cases because they've taken that 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:33.280 off the table. If Jake testifies against everyone, they typically 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:36.560 are pretty uneventful. We've had some sparks fly in some 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:39.200 of the motions hearings, but I haven't. You know, these 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:41.960 pre trials tend to be pretty dry. Yeah, I thought 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:45.719 that too until what was at April the twenty first 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:48.880 of this year, the night before Jake Wagner played guilty. 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:52.480 I was told by some family members that BCI reached 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:54.560 out and said, you want to be at the courthouse 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:57.240 tomorrow in Pike County. And then that was just docketed 0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:00.000 as a pre trial hearing and there was no indication 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:02.599 that Jake Wagner would be pleading guilty other than the 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:06.000 state calling the family and suggesting they'd be there. So 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:09.440 that actually turned into the end of his prosecution. So, man, 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:11.680 I think if you get a call from the family 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:14.039 any one of these pre trials, it just seemed like 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:16.800 a routine. You know, where are we in this prosecution? 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:18.840 And does everybody have what they need so we can 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:20.599 try this thing. Man, I think you got to be 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:23.200 careful in this case. You don't know what may come next. 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:26.000 I mean, Jake, was I think a complete surprise to everybody, 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:28.760 even the family. What were your thoughts on that day, Joseph, 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:31.160 None of us were expecting this. Do you remember we 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:33.680 were all texting between one another saying what the hell 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:36.280 is going on? Because this seemed dropped like thunder out 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:38.720 of the heavens and we never saw it coming. I 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:41.840 didn't certainly, I had no idea that this was about 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:43.760 to happen. So you could knock me over with a 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:46.840 feather that day. There is a distinct possibility that he 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:49.279 could come in and plead. I don't think he's going 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:51.520 to plead guilty. If if he was going to plead guilty, 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:53.480 I don't think his lawyer would be like filing a 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:57.000 demand for discovery in a trial date. So just my opinion. 0:05:57.080 --> 0:05:58.840 But what do I know, Probably get out there and 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:01.640 something crazy. I'll have it's the pike to a massacre. 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:04.159 Who knows. You never know where this is going next. 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:10.400 Covering this story, who did you guys first think did it? 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:13.160 I thought it could have been related to the pot, 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:16.160 you know, the marijuana growing operation. But I had been 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:19.440 told early on by some law enforcement sources, federal law 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:23.000 enforcement sources, that the cartel thing wasn't true because they 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:26.479 ran that down because of the level of violence that 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:29.800 was involved in it, and it didn't seem like messaging 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:32.720 so much to me. As you would see with an 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:36.320 organized crime hit, there's generally something that will be left 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:39.200 that is substantial, you know, the elements that we've talked 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:42.200 about quite a bit relative to overkill in cases I've 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:45.880 seen and then you displayed before us. It seemed very 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:50.240 intimate to me, very very intimate, and cartels loved their money, 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:54.119 but they're not intimate. Also with intimacy comes that level 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:58.400 of familiarity and the fact that in this tight little space, 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:00.600 you know, and it is a tight little space when 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:03.200 you travel down that road, you have these locations where 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:07.440 all these people inhabited these very specific pinpoint locations, and 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:10.160 there's other structures and other families around that area. They 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:13.840 knew where there were going. There were no mistakes. Many times, 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:16.120 if somebody's not familiar with an area and they're going 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:18.440 to go out and kill somebody, you'll have mistakes. Along 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:21.640 the way, but they had pinpointed four separate locations, and 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:26.000 that again goes back. I think there's connectivity with that 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:29.840 seed of intimacy. The whole thing about the dog's not barking, 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:32.200 because they said those dogs would have. That was just 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:35.120 very strange. We knew there was a baby, We knew 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:36.840 there was a child, you know, we knew about the 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:39.520 little girl, and we knew about the Wagoners. But I 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:43.160 didn't hear the Wagoner name and any association with the 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:48.200 murders or suspected association until May of twenty seventeen. And 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:50.920 then Jody was at your experience as well. I got 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:54.440 over there heavily in June July, right after the murders, 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:57.040 and I mean people you talk with, even the family 0:07:57.040 --> 0:07:59.840 members had already and I don't know what the reasons, 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:03.960 but it had already suspected something to do with the Wagoners. 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:06.600 I mean they had already floated, you know, the Wagner 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:09.840 farm out as being the base of operations for this family. 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:13.240 There was also a drug case in Adams County, which 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:16.119 is just right next door to Pike, that the rumor 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:19.280 Mill believed could have been linked, you know, to the Wagoners. 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:22.040 The Wagner farm or at least you know what happened 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:24.560 over as far as the drug angle that ended up 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:27.760 not being connected in the end, or as far as 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:29.640 we know it's not connected. But you know, we went 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:31.920 as far as you know, covering a court hearing over 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:35.360 there for someone who had a substantial amount of drugs 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:38.520 on them. So anyway, there was a lot swirling around. 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:41.040 But the Wagner name. We heard that early on that 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:44.400 some people suspected that they were somehow involved. But you know, 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:46.079 back then, it's it's like, how do you even where 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:48.280 do you start on something like that? I went out 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:50.800 past that, you know, the Flying w farm. You try 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:53.320 to dig in the property records and background these people, 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:55.679 and first off, there wasn't a lot to background with 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:58.240 these folks. And secondly, it's just you know, what you 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:02.360 did find didn't scream mass murderers. I didn't see anything 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:04.920 there that would cause me to continue digging. It was 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:07.800 nothing that I found, at least in looking into the 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:10.320 Wagner family that I went okay there to smoking gun. 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:13.680 The rumors are true. It's just you collected it as information, 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:15.680 You try to vet it, you get nowhere, and you 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:19.480 just move on and then Andrewette, Yeah, I'm curious your perspective. 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:22.680 I'm starting to develop an idea of them. I started 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:25.320 looking into them, and you know, when you see that 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:28.160 Jake and George and the house and the mom lived 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:30.440 there with them, I was kind of like, oh, that's weird. 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:32.880 And then I remember being out there and hearing a 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:36.360 little bit about, you know, how they lived, and learning 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:40.520 more about George's wife now ex wife. It all started 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:44.480 to kind of sound very interesting. So I remember specifically 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:46.440 going up to the Flying w and you go up 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:49.000 there and it's like this steep I would say, it's 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:52.640 like a sixty or seventy degree kind of like driveway 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:55.840 gravel driveway, and driving up there and being basically told 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:57.760 to get off the property, you know, just seeing if 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:00.240 they wanted to comment. So it was a little cre be, 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:02.360 a little scary. I mean, it's a beautiful property, don't 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:04.520 get me wrong, But when your cell phone doesn't work 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:07.400 and you're driving up somewhere to go try to talk 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:09.920 to somebody, and somebody you know, basically comes out and 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:11.839 tells you to get out of there, I felt a 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:14.720 little weird. You know. Obviously it wasn't very welcoming. I 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:17.480 started digging around on Facebook quite a bit too, and 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:20.040 it didn't seem like on the surface that you would 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:23.360 suspect anything. You know, the mom Angela was running some 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:27.120 type of little organic farm type thing at that Peterson 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:30.559 Road house. You know, she was trying to breed animals 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:32.920 and sell them, and she had pictures of the children 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:35.440 on there on Facebook. So, you know, at first it 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:38.760 didn't seem weird. But then I contacted her and said, look, 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:40.360 you know, I'd love to do an interview with you. 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:42.920 And then some of the things Angela Wagner said to 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:45.240 me on Facebook Messenger kind of made me feel a 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:48.480 little uncomfortable, the way she was trying to dictate what 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:52.320 I said, what I would be reporting about our conversations 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:55.679 on Facebook messenger. She said, you know you are not 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:58.679 to report any of this what I said. You know, 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:01.040 I do not give you permit. Shouldn't report anything I 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:04.000 just told you. She said that she was being slander 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:09.920 she and her family. Do you think Jake is lying 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:13.000 about being personally responsible for five of the eight? I 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:15.080 don't know what his incentive to lie about that is. 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:17.440 I mean, is he that afraid of the death penalty? 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:20.880 The economics of that equation just does not make sense 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:24.480 to me where he would openly confess to murdering five people. 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:27.600 Probably the worst act you could commit as a human 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:30.200 is taking the life of another, and he did that 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:32.559 five times over. I think we got a good idea 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:35.080 of what happened here, and Jake Wagner told his story 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:38.440 in court, and he took the guilty plea and said 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:40.560 he did it, you know, five of the eight. You know. 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:42.760 I think that's the best shot we've had so far 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:46.320 at some confirmation of really peeling this story back. I 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:49.520 think the world wants to know what happened when they 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:51.959 woke up that morning, put this plan in place, Who 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:54.360 went where, who did what? As I think all of 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:57.360 us have done since April twenty sixteen when this happened, 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:01.560 as you roll around these scenarios in your mind, trying 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:04.400 to figure out, first off, what's the mindset of someone 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:07.160 to pull this off and then to just run free 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:09.880 for what two years afterward and you live with this 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:12.680 every day of your life. It may have been passion driven, 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:15.280 and it was certainly anger driven, but it wasn't like 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:17.959 somebody just suddenly flew off the handle and decided to 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:21.160 go and visit hell down upon the roads. This is 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:24.440 something that took planning, in my estimation at least, So 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:28.200 you begin thinking this confederacy. What do you think about 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:31.600 when you're moving from someplace like the last house that 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:33.560 you hit with multiple people in it, and then you 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:36.480 drive out to Kenneth's house at some distance away. Now, 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:39.120 what does that conversation consist of? You talk about what 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:41.480 music you're gonna listen to on the radio and talk 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:44.120 about who's going to handle what. I don't know who 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:46.400 pulled the trigger. Jake said he killed five of them. 0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:49.560 But I can't imagine, to Jody's point, why in the 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:52.040 world that man would say that he killed five people 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:54.360 in an open court and he didn't do it. So 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:56.840 that leaves us with the other three who would do 0:12:56.920 --> 0:12:59.480 this and do it in the presence of these babes 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:01.880 and just leave them. And I can only imagine having 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:04.559 wallowed around about in that blood. I don't know. It 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:10.560 leaves me dumbfounded, and that's hard to do. Hannah Gilly, 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:14.400 she was attacked on the only second to Chris Roden. 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:17.280 She was shot this woman five times in the face, 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:21.120 which is an unbelievable overkill. So the thought is a 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:24.800 why and then also is it possible it would be 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:28.640 a connection or rage because her brother, Charlie Gilly is 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:32.920 the father of Hannah Roden's new baby. That would be 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:36.319 my suspicion, But I really don't know for sure. I mean, 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:39.480 I would just be speculating because of that connection. There's 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:41.680 a whole lot more going on. And you know, Hannah 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:44.120 Gilly shot five times in the face. It's you know, 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:45.959 you look at the angle, Well, is that a message 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:49.520 being sent? One shot is a message? You know? Five? 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:51.480 I don't know what you're doing at that point. Jay 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:53.920 Wagner at least set out with a plan that night 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:56.079 to do what he did to five of the eight. 0:13:56.280 --> 0:13:58.320 You know, he killed the other three. You know, I 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:00.640 just I just hope we all, you know, get these answers. 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:03.120 Now that springs us to another point. I'm going to 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:06.040 reflect back to an old, old case real quick that 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:09.200 many people will be aware of and absolutely horrendous. And 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:12.360 it's Dennis Rader with the BTK killing now in Kansas. 0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:15.560 He stood up and he said, I will, in fact 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:18.560 admit to everything I've done since I don't know, nineteen 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:21.240 seventy three or seventy four. Whinner it was he started 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:25.440 this horrific murder scree, his serial killings. They put this 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:29.120 one caveat in there. They said, okay, that's fine, we'll 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:32.280 take death off the table, and you have to stand 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:34.640 in court and you have to stand and deliver. At 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:37.360 this moment, Tom and he was compelled to what is 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:40.720 framed as an elocution. He had to stand there, and 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:42.840 it's one of the most chilling things you've ever seen, 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:45.840 because this guy's a psychopath. And so when you listen 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:49.040 to him give the details behind these horrific crimes he 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:52.560 participated in, it really makes you wonder if you want 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.520 this thing that people talk about. The frame is closure 0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:58.920 because it's a horror show. But in this particular case, 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:01.480 if this is the route you're going to go, I 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:04.880 think that these individuals should be compelled to allocute. Let's 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:07.960 think about these babies that are left behind, these children. 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:09.880 Don't you think they're going to one an explanation at 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:11.800 some point in time? I mean, yeah, I know the 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:14.760 community does, but what about these kids. Let's just assume 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:17.320 that they do get convictions on all fronts here, what 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:18.840 do you do? You push them off into a deep 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:21.200 dark hole and they're never to be heard from again, 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:24.080 and we'll never hear anything else about this. And people 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:28.200 keep talking about, well, we'll never hear the true story 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:31.960 because the deal was cut and they weren't compelled the perpetrators, 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:35.920 if it is them and they are so convicted, they 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:38.800 were never compelled to say, Okay, this is what happened, 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:40.800 this is how the planning took place, and this is 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:45.440 what we did that night, And those questions will always exist. 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:49.080 And on a broader note, you're always going to have, 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:52.200 you know, people sitting in their basement with ten foil 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:55.920 hats on saying well, it wasn't them. You know, they'll 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:58.720 be crazy conspiracy theories that will be created for years 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:02.440 and years to come. But what actually happened that ninment. 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:10.320 We're going to take a quick break here. We'll be 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:22.400 back in a moment. What's your theory on who the 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:25.840 mastermind is? I don't want to indict anybody, obviously, but 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:30.040 we have Jake Wagner confessing and implicating all of his 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:33.440 family members in this, at least Billy Angela and his 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:37.160 older brother, George, the fourth Angela. If if you really 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:41.920 kind of watched these hearings very closely, she was apparently 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:45.240 on jail calls. She was calling her mother against the 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:49.000 judge's orders and telling Rita Newcome, you don't have to 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:52.640 testify against us. People who are completely innocent, they don't 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:54.960 call their mothers and say you don't have to testify 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:57.480 against us. And her mother came out in court and 0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:00.400 said she asked me to lie about notarizing the documents, 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:04.920 the custody documents, the forged custody documents that have been 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:09.320 discussed in this case. It was stated they were declaration documents, 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:13.080 and it was stated in Rita Newcome's case because she 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:16.600 was the one accused of charged with forgery or obstruction. 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:20.119 It said that it was declarations for the children of 0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:24.800 Hannah Rodin, George the Fourth and Jake And so basically 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:29.400 these documents designated a guardian should any of them die. 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:34.280 And these documents had been signed and notarized nineteen days 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:37.439 before the murders, and it designated the children go to 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:40.800 Angela should any of them die. That's just one of 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:44.280 those puzzle pieces that I felt like showed that Angela 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:47.040 she may have been the driving force here since she 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:49.600 was the one that had the Facebook message that's been 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:52.439 referenced in court. That showed that Hannah said they'd have 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:54.760 to kill me first before I gave up my child, 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:57.560 and she showed that message to Jake. Angie Kaneppa said 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:03.440 that in court when Jake pleaded guilty, the next thing 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:06.840 I wanted to talk about was Alaska. When they all 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:10.080 up and moved to your point together sold all of 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:13.320 their stuff. I went, whoo, this doesn't look good on paper. 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:16.399 It looks like what you would suspect someone involved in 0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:19.159 a crime like this would do is to, you know, 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:21.360 go to the other side of the world. So, I mean, 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:24.399 that was just my initial impression of it. But to 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:27.600 end up picking everything you own up and throwing in 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:31.159 a multiple trailers and moving man to Alaska, that's not like, 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:34.399 you know, moving just out of state. That's that's a 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:36.440 long way to go, and then to come right back. 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:39.480 I would love to know more about the reasons behind that. 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:41.760 You know, did they feel the heat at that point 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:44.320 in time? Were they really trying to get away? I 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:48.240 think what I'm so interested in is Jake's wife, who 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:51.040 we don't know all that much about. But obviously he 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:54.399 goes to Alaska, meets a woman and then ends up 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:58.200 marrying her. This other woman, I mean, what were those 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:00.760 conversations like I mean, I would love to be able 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:03.040 to sit down and talk with her now about you know, 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:05.840 she watched that video feed of Jake pleading guilty to 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:08.480 these murders. I mean, if you hid that from her too, 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:11.720 you know, it's like a whole other level, another layer 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:17.000 on this sadistic, twisted person that he turned out to be. Well. 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:20.560 Elizabeth then came back to Pike County with the family, 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:24.200 and then she went to the police claiming threats, harassment, 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:29.200 and potential identity them right, It's been very frustrating because 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:33.000 that case is now years old and they won't release 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:36.280 any more records about it or any more of the 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:39.359 report than just the first page, which basically says a 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:43.120 name and you know, a complaint lodged. It doesn't say 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:45.840 anything else. I talked to a lawyer about it a 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:48.320 while back who did not think it would be successful 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:51.760 to pursue obtaining that. It's still listed as an open 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:54.320 case even though it's been many years. This is, of 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:57.000 course all speculation on my part. But because Jake's wife, 0:19:57.040 --> 0:19:59.800 Elizabeth filed those harassment charges because she was living with 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:02.720 Jake Anna's family in Alaska, came back to piked in. 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:05.440 It seems like a possibility she could be the informant. 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:09.199 Who do you think the informant or informants are I 0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:13.280 think Jake Wagner's wife. We have efforted to find her 0:20:13.359 --> 0:20:18.400 so many times, so many ways, and a roadblock after roadblock, 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:21.800 we just we haven't been able to speak with her. Well, 0:20:21.840 --> 0:20:24.320 I've kind of suspected for a while now that it 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:27.360 was it was her. And then what I thought was interesting, 0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:30.280 and this was said in court, someone or more than 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:34.760 one person refers to the informant as she right, Ryan Scheider, 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:38.800 I think said she during his testimony last August. So 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:41.440 that that is what was the final thing to lead 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:43.280 me to believe it was her. But it could be 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:47.199 could be wrong, I don't know, could be a curveball 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:48.959 out of nowhere. Though. What if it's, you know, one 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:51.560 of the grandmothers. I know that's hard to believe. I 0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:54.680 don't know how impossible it is about the grandmother's a. 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:57.879 Obviously they're also tight knit, and I do think it's interesting. 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:01.120