1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Piketon Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio and 2 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 1: Katie Studios, Season two, Episode eight, Expert Roundtable. I'm Courtney Armstrong, 3 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: a television producer at Katie Studios, with Stephanie Lydecker and 4 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: Jeff Shane. On June twenty first, twenty twenty one, accused 5 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,319 Speaker 1: brother George Wagner the fourth appeared in court for a 6 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: pre trial hearing in the Roden murder case. Five hearing 7 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:33,239 Speaker 1: long and a number of defense pre trial motions. It 8 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:35,639 Speaker 1: was the first full hearing to take place in George's 9 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: younger brother, Jake Wagner, played guilty to killing five of 10 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: the eight slain members of the Roden family in April 11 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, and it was Jake's plea and what he 12 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: potentially told authorities that became the defense's primary focus during 13 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: these proceedings. I think we need more than sixty days 14 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: to investigate whatever we learned Jake's profit because we have 15 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: not been provided at even though it's been available for 16 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: two longs, we have not received that we are entitled 17 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: to that under Criminal Rule sixteen. And once we get it, 18 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 1: and I understand it's more than ten hours of recording statements. 19 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: So once we get that, we need an adequate amount 20 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 1: of time to investigate whatever we need to investigate, and 21 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: will certainly comply with our discovery obligations the state degree 22 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: to work towards providing George Wagner's attorneys with Jake's confession. 23 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: The court also scheduled George's next motion hearing to take 24 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: place on September thirteenth, But before court was dismissed, Judge 25 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,559 Speaker 1: Randy Deering provided one critical piece of information for George 26 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: moving forward. We have said a trial date in this 27 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 1: case for four with accused brother George Wagner said to 28 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:46,119 Speaker 1: begin trial on April fourth, twenty twenty two. There will 29 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: surely be a lot to cover moving forward. But just 30 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: a few days before George Wagner's most recent hearing, we 31 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: got some of our regular contributors together for discussion. Reporters 32 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:59,559 Speaker 1: Angeinette Levy and Jodi Barr, and criminal forensic expert Joseph Morgan. 33 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: We covered a range of topics that spanned their years 34 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: covering the road and murder case. We started out with 35 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: a talk about some of the details they had heard 36 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: leading up to George Wagner's tile last week and what 37 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: they expected the outcome to be a Jeanette Leavey started 38 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 1: us off some documents filed by George the Fourth's lawyers, 39 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: saying they still haven't received Jake's statements to law enforcement, 40 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: and they were led to believe that Jake's interviews were 41 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: between ten and eighteen hours, So they subpoenaed Greg Myers, 42 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 1: who is the lead counsel for Jake, and they filed 43 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: emotion demanding that the additional discovery, including Jake's interviews, be 44 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 1: turned over. So we don't know the veracity of his 45 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: statements or how truthful they are, other than he allegedly 46 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: led them to the vehicle used and the weapons used. 47 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: So I mean he did quite a bit of talking. Jody. 48 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 1: How rare is it for one attorney to subpoena another attorney. 49 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: I don't recall a specific instance of that, but I 50 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: mean that is a clear indication that one side is 51 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: not feel that they are getting the information they need 52 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: to defend their clients. So I think it's worth a 53 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: deeper look at you know, why either the state or 54 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: Jake's own attorneys are not playing ball here. That's been 55 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: to complaint the entire time that defense attorneys have complained 56 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 1: consistently that they're not getting material as quickly as they 57 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: would like, and you would think they would just make 58 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: a copy and send it over. Yeah, I mean, and 59 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: in this one, I would venture a guess that it 60 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: was at least audio recorded, perhaps if not video recorded, 61 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: this statement that Jake gave. So, I mean, you know 62 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: they need to produce this. I don't know how you 63 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: know these three defense teams can adequately prepare for trial 64 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: when there's this huge evidence dump from Jake Wagner's mouth 65 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: that apparently they don't have access to. Right now, you've 66 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: got one of the four saying I did it. I 67 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: did it, and you know what did he do exactly? 68 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: We didn't hear it in court. You know, maybe he 69 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: told that story in the statements, but ten to eighteen 70 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: hours it's a heck of a long time to have 71 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: a conversation cover a lot of ground in that time. 72 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: So I had a quote normal pre trial, what happens? 73 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: What's the broad strokes? They usually ask the defendant if 74 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: they're happy with their lawyer, and they're meeting with their 75 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: lawyer enough, and they discussed the pace of discovery and 76 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: what have you. But I feel like in this case, 77 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: nothing ever happens. I mean they go into chambers for 78 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,559 Speaker 1: an hour and then they come out and put something 79 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 1: on the record. Because these are death penalty cases. Now 80 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: they're really not death penalty cases because they've taken that 81 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 1: off the table. If Jake testifies against everyone, they typically 82 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: are pretty uneventful. We've had some sparks fly in some 83 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: of the motions hearings, but I haven't. You know, these 84 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: pre trials tend to be pretty dry. Yeah, I thought 85 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: that too until what was at April the twenty first 86 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: of this year, the night before Jake Wagner played guilty. 87 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: I was told by some family members that BCI reached 88 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: out and said, you want to be at the courthouse 89 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: tomorrow in Pike County. And then that was just docketed 90 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: as a pre trial hearing and there was no indication 91 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 1: that Jake Wagner would be pleading guilty other than the 92 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: state calling the family and suggesting they'd be there. So 93 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: that actually turned into the end of his prosecution. So, man, 94 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: I think if you get a call from the family 95 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 1: any one of these pre trials, it just seemed like 96 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: a routine. You know, where are we in this prosecution? 97 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 1: And does everybody have what they need so we can 98 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 1: try this thing. Man, I think you got to be 99 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: careful in this case. You don't know what may come next. 100 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: I mean, Jake, was I think a complete surprise to everybody, 101 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: even the family. What were your thoughts on that day, Joseph, 102 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 1: None of us were expecting this. Do you remember we 103 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: were all texting between one another saying what the hell 104 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 1: is going on? Because this seemed dropped like thunder out 105 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 1: of the heavens and we never saw it coming. I 106 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 1: didn't certainly, I had no idea that this was about 107 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: to happen. So you could knock me over with a 108 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 1: feather that day. There is a distinct possibility that he 109 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 1: could come in and plead. I don't think he's going 110 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: to plead guilty. If if he was going to plead guilty, 111 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 1: I don't think his lawyer would be like filing a 112 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: demand for discovery in a trial date. So just my opinion. 113 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:58,840 Speaker 1: But what do I know, Probably get out there and 114 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: something crazy. I'll have it's the pike to a massacre. 115 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: Who knows. You never know where this is going next. 116 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: Covering this story, who did you guys first think did it? 117 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 1: I thought it could have been related to the pot, 118 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 1: you know, the marijuana growing operation. But I had been 119 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: told early on by some law enforcement sources, federal law 120 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: enforcement sources, that the cartel thing wasn't true because they 121 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 1: ran that down because of the level of violence that 122 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 1: was involved in it, and it didn't seem like messaging 123 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,720 Speaker 1: so much to me. As you would see with an 124 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: organized crime hit, there's generally something that will be left 125 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: that is substantial, you know, the elements that we've talked 126 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: about quite a bit relative to overkill in cases I've 127 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: seen and then you displayed before us. It seemed very 128 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: intimate to me, very very intimate, and cartels loved their money, 129 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:54,119 Speaker 1: but they're not intimate. Also with intimacy comes that level 130 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: of familiarity and the fact that in this tight little space, 131 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 1: you know, and it is a tight little space when 132 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: you travel down that road, you have these locations where 133 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: all these people inhabited these very specific pinpoint locations, and 134 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: there's other structures and other families around that area. They 135 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: knew where there were going. There were no mistakes. Many times, 136 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: if somebody's not familiar with an area and they're going 137 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: to go out and kill somebody, you'll have mistakes. Along 138 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: the way, but they had pinpointed four separate locations, and 139 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: that again goes back. I think there's connectivity with that 140 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: seed of intimacy. The whole thing about the dog's not barking, 141 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: because they said those dogs would have. That was just 142 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: very strange. We knew there was a baby, We knew 143 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 1: there was a child, you know, we knew about the 144 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: little girl, and we knew about the Wagoners. But I 145 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: didn't hear the Wagoner name and any association with the 146 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: murders or suspected association until May of twenty seventeen. And 147 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: then Jody was at your experience as well. I got 148 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: over there heavily in June July, right after the murders, 149 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: and I mean people you talk with, even the family 150 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: members had already and I don't know what the reasons, 151 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: but it had already suspected something to do with the Wagoners. 152 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: I mean they had already floated, you know, the Wagner 153 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: farm out as being the base of operations for this family. 154 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: There was also a drug case in Adams County, which 155 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,119 Speaker 1: is just right next door to Pike, that the rumor 156 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: Mill believed could have been linked, you know, to the Wagoners. 157 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: The Wagner farm or at least you know what happened 158 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: over as far as the drug angle that ended up 159 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: not being connected in the end, or as far as 160 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: we know it's not connected. But you know, we went 161 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: as far as you know, covering a court hearing over 162 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: there for someone who had a substantial amount of drugs 163 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: on them. So anyway, there was a lot swirling around. 164 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: But the Wagner name. We heard that early on that 165 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: some people suspected that they were somehow involved. But you know, 166 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:46,079 Speaker 1: back then, it's it's like, how do you even where 167 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: do you start on something like that? I went out 168 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: past that, you know, the Flying w farm. You try 169 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: to dig in the property records and background these people, 170 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:55,679 Speaker 1: and first off, there wasn't a lot to background with 171 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: these folks. And secondly, it's just you know, what you 172 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: did find didn't scream mass murderers. I didn't see anything 173 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: there that would cause me to continue digging. It was 174 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: nothing that I found, at least in looking into the 175 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 1: Wagner family that I went okay there to smoking gun. 176 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 1: The rumors are true. It's just you collected it as information, 177 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 1: You try to vet it, you get nowhere, and you 178 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: just move on and then Andrewette, Yeah, I'm curious your perspective. 179 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: I'm starting to develop an idea of them. I started 180 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: looking into them, and you know, when you see that 181 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: Jake and George and the house and the mom lived 182 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 1: there with them, I was kind of like, oh, that's weird. 183 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: And then I remember being out there and hearing a 184 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: little bit about, you know, how they lived, and learning 185 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: more about George's wife now ex wife. It all started 186 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: to kind of sound very interesting. So I remember specifically 187 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 1: going up to the Flying w and you go up 188 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: there and it's like this steep I would say, it's 189 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: like a sixty or seventy degree kind of like driveway 190 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 1: gravel driveway, and driving up there and being basically told 191 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: to get off the property, you know, just seeing if 192 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: they wanted to comment. So it was a little cre be, 193 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: a little scary. I mean, it's a beautiful property, don't 194 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: get me wrong, But when your cell phone doesn't work 195 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: and you're driving up somewhere to go try to talk 196 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: to somebody, and somebody you know, basically comes out and 197 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:11,839 Speaker 1: tells you to get out of there, I felt a 198 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: little weird. You know. Obviously it wasn't very welcoming. I 199 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: started digging around on Facebook quite a bit too, and 200 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: it didn't seem like on the surface that you would 201 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: suspect anything. You know, the mom Angela was running some 202 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: type of little organic farm type thing at that Peterson 203 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,559 Speaker 1: Road house. You know, she was trying to breed animals 204 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: and sell them, and she had pictures of the children 205 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: on there on Facebook. So, you know, at first it 206 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: didn't seem weird. But then I contacted her and said, look, 207 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: you know, I'd love to do an interview with you. 208 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: And then some of the things Angela Wagner said to 209 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: me on Facebook Messenger kind of made me feel a 210 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: little uncomfortable, the way she was trying to dictate what 211 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 1: I said, what I would be reporting about our conversations 212 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 1: on Facebook messenger. She said, you know you are not 213 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 1: to report any of this what I said. You know, 214 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: I do not give you permit. Shouldn't report anything I 215 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: just told you. She said that she was being slander 216 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: she and her family. Do you think Jake is lying 217 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: about being personally responsible for five of the eight? I 218 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 1: don't know what his incentive to lie about that is. 219 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: I mean, is he that afraid of the death penalty? 220 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: The economics of that equation just does not make sense 221 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: to me where he would openly confess to murdering five people. 222 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: Probably the worst act you could commit as a human 223 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 1: is taking the life of another, and he did that 224 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:32,559 Speaker 1: five times over. I think we got a good idea 225 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 1: of what happened here, and Jake Wagner told his story 226 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: in court, and he took the guilty plea and said 227 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: he did it, you know, five of the eight. You know. 228 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: I think that's the best shot we've had so far 229 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 1: at some confirmation of really peeling this story back. I 230 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: think the world wants to know what happened when they 231 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:51,959 Speaker 1: woke up that morning, put this plan in place, Who 232 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: went where, who did what? As I think all of 233 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: us have done since April twenty sixteen when this happened, 234 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: as you roll around these scenarios in your mind, trying 235 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: to figure out, first off, what's the mindset of someone 236 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: to pull this off and then to just run free 237 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: for what two years afterward and you live with this 238 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 1: every day of your life. It may have been passion driven, 239 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: and it was certainly anger driven, but it wasn't like 240 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,959 Speaker 1: somebody just suddenly flew off the handle and decided to 241 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: go and visit hell down upon the roads. This is 242 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 1: something that took planning, in my estimation at least, So 243 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: you begin thinking this confederacy. What do you think about 244 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: when you're moving from someplace like the last house that 245 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 1: you hit with multiple people in it, and then you 246 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: drive out to Kenneth's house at some distance away. Now, 247 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: what does that conversation consist of? You talk about what 248 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 1: music you're gonna listen to on the radio and talk 249 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 1: about who's going to handle what. I don't know who 250 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: pulled the trigger. Jake said he killed five of them. 251 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: But I can't imagine, to Jody's point, why in the 252 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: world that man would say that he killed five people 253 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: in an open court and he didn't do it. So 254 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: that leaves us with the other three who would do 255 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: this and do it in the presence of these babes 256 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: and just leave them. And I can only imagine having 257 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,559 Speaker 1: wallowed around about in that blood. I don't know. It 258 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 1: leaves me dumbfounded, and that's hard to do. Hannah Gilly, 259 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: she was attacked on the only second to Chris Roden. 260 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: She was shot this woman five times in the face, 261 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 1: which is an unbelievable overkill. So the thought is a 262 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: why and then also is it possible it would be 263 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: a connection or rage because her brother, Charlie Gilly is 264 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: the father of Hannah Roden's new baby. That would be 265 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,319 Speaker 1: my suspicion, But I really don't know for sure. I mean, 266 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: I would just be speculating because of that connection. There's 267 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 1: a whole lot more going on. And you know, Hannah 268 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: Gilly shot five times in the face. It's you know, 269 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:45,959 Speaker 1: you look at the angle, Well, is that a message 270 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: being sent? One shot is a message? You know? Five? 271 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: I don't know what you're doing at that point. Jay 272 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: Wagner at least set out with a plan that night 273 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,079 Speaker 1: to do what he did to five of the eight. 274 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 1: You know, he killed the other three. You know, I 275 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: just I just hope we all, you know, get these answers. 276 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: Now that springs us to another point. I'm going to 277 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: reflect back to an old, old case real quick that 278 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 1: many people will be aware of and absolutely horrendous. And 279 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: it's Dennis Rader with the BTK killing now in Kansas. 280 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 1: He stood up and he said, I will, in fact 281 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 1: admit to everything I've done since I don't know, nineteen 282 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: seventy three or seventy four. Whinner it was he started 283 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: this horrific murder scree, his serial killings. They put this 284 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: one caveat in there. They said, okay, that's fine, we'll 285 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: take death off the table, and you have to stand 286 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: in court and you have to stand and deliver. At 287 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: this moment, Tom and he was compelled to what is 288 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: framed as an elocution. He had to stand there, and 289 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: it's one of the most chilling things you've ever seen, 290 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: because this guy's a psychopath. And so when you listen 291 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: to him give the details behind these horrific crimes he 292 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: participated in, it really makes you wonder if you want 293 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: this thing that people talk about. The frame is closure 294 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: because it's a horror show. But in this particular case, 295 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: if this is the route you're going to go, I 296 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: think that these individuals should be compelled to allocute. Let's 297 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: think about these babies that are left behind, these children. 298 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: Don't you think they're going to one an explanation at 299 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: some point in time? I mean, yeah, I know the 300 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: community does, but what about these kids. Let's just assume 301 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: that they do get convictions on all fronts here, what 302 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: do you do? You push them off into a deep 303 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: dark hole and they're never to be heard from again, 304 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: and we'll never hear anything else about this. And people 305 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: keep talking about, well, we'll never hear the true story 306 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: because the deal was cut and they weren't compelled the perpetrators, 307 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: if it is them and they are so convicted, they 308 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: were never compelled to say, Okay, this is what happened, 309 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: this is how the planning took place, and this is 310 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: what we did that night, And those questions will always exist. 311 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: And on a broader note, you're always going to have, 312 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: you know, people sitting in their basement with ten foil 313 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: hats on saying well, it wasn't them. You know, they'll 314 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: be crazy conspiracy theories that will be created for years 315 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: and years to come. But what actually happened that ninment. 316 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break here. We'll be 317 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: back in a moment. What's your theory on who the 318 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: mastermind is? I don't want to indict anybody, obviously, but 319 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: we have Jake Wagner confessing and implicating all of his 320 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: family members in this, at least Billy Angela and his 321 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: older brother, George, the fourth Angela. If if you really 322 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: kind of watched these hearings very closely, she was apparently 323 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: on jail calls. She was calling her mother against the 324 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: judge's orders and telling Rita Newcome, you don't have to 325 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: testify against us. People who are completely innocent, they don't 326 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: call their mothers and say you don't have to testify 327 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: against us. And her mother came out in court and 328 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: said she asked me to lie about notarizing the documents, 329 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 1: the custody documents, the forged custody documents that have been 330 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: discussed in this case. It was stated they were declaration documents, 331 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: and it was stated in Rita Newcome's case because she 332 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: was the one accused of charged with forgery or obstruction. 333 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: It said that it was declarations for the children of 334 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: Hannah Rodin, George the Fourth and Jake And so basically 335 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 1: these documents designated a guardian should any of them die. 336 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: And these documents had been signed and notarized nineteen days 337 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 1: before the murders, and it designated the children go to 338 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: Angela should any of them die. That's just one of 339 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: those puzzle pieces that I felt like showed that Angela 340 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: she may have been the driving force here since she 341 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: was the one that had the Facebook message that's been 342 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 1: referenced in court. That showed that Hannah said they'd have 343 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: to kill me first before I gave up my child, 344 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 1: and she showed that message to Jake. Angie Kaneppa said 345 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 1: that in court when Jake pleaded guilty, the next thing 346 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about was Alaska. When they all 347 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: up and moved to your point together sold all of 348 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: their stuff. I went, whoo, this doesn't look good on paper. 349 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 1: It looks like what you would suspect someone involved in 350 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 1: a crime like this would do is to, you know, 351 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,360 Speaker 1: go to the other side of the world. So, I mean, 352 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 1: that was just my initial impression of it. But to 353 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: end up picking everything you own up and throwing in 354 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 1: a multiple trailers and moving man to Alaska, that's not like, 355 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 1: you know, moving just out of state. That's that's a 356 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:36,440 Speaker 1: long way to go, and then to come right back. 357 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: I would love to know more about the reasons behind that. 358 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: You know, did they feel the heat at that point 359 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: in time? Were they really trying to get away? I 360 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: think what I'm so interested in is Jake's wife, who 361 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: we don't know all that much about. But obviously he 362 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 1: goes to Alaska, meets a woman and then ends up 363 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 1: marrying her. This other woman, I mean, what were those 364 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: conversations like I mean, I would love to be able 365 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: to sit down and talk with her now about you know, 366 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: she watched that video feed of Jake pleading guilty to 367 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 1: these murders. I mean, if you hid that from her too, 368 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: you know, it's like a whole other level, another layer 369 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: on this sadistic, twisted person that he turned out to be. Well. 370 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: Elizabeth then came back to Pike County with the family, 371 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 1: and then she went to the police claiming threats, harassment, 372 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 1: and potential identity them right, It's been very frustrating because 373 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 1: that case is now years old and they won't release 374 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: any more records about it or any more of the 375 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 1: report than just the first page, which basically says a 376 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,120 Speaker 1: name and you know, a complaint lodged. It doesn't say 377 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: anything else. I talked to a lawyer about it a 378 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: while back who did not think it would be successful 379 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: to pursue obtaining that. It's still listed as an open 380 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: case even though it's been many years. This is, of 381 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: course all speculation on my part. But because Jake's wife, 382 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: Elizabeth filed those harassment charges because she was living with 383 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: Jake Anna's family in Alaska, came back to piked in. 384 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 1: It seems like a possibility she could be the informant. 385 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,199 Speaker 1: Who do you think the informant or informants are I 386 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: think Jake Wagner's wife. We have efforted to find her 387 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:18,400 Speaker 1: so many times, so many ways, and a roadblock after roadblock, 388 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: we just we haven't been able to speak with her. Well, 389 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: I've kind of suspected for a while now that it 390 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,360 Speaker 1: was it was her. And then what I thought was interesting, 391 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: and this was said in court, someone or more than 392 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: one person refers to the informant as she right, Ryan Scheider, 393 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: I think said she during his testimony last August. So 394 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 1: that that is what was the final thing to lead 395 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: me to believe it was her. But it could be 396 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 1: could be wrong, I don't know, could be a curveball 397 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:48,959 Speaker 1: out of nowhere. Though. What if it's, you know, one 398 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 1: of the grandmothers. I know that's hard to believe. I 399 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 1: don't know how impossible it is about the grandmother's a. 400 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 1: Obviously they're also tight knit, and I do think it's interesting. 401 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 1: Frederica has not said one word to my knowledge publicly 402 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 1: since Jake has made his confession. But even with Riata Newcome, 403 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 1: I can't imagine the pressure she was under when she 404 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 1: had to talk about you know, my daughter said this 405 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: and if she did have something to say, and they 406 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: were pressing her for a long time. Again, that's why, 407 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: you know, it's like there's so much left unknown with this, 408 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: and one day down the road we could rip this 409 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: case file open and when it's all said and done 410 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: and gets s'more the truth here. Antonett and Jody, I 411 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: know you live pretty local t Pikeson and have been there. Joseph, 412 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 1: can you tell us what your recent first trip was like. 413 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: It's not unlike a lot of Appalachian towns, you know, 414 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,879 Speaker 1: are in communities. It's you can tell that, you know, 415 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: there's church just about on every corner. And the people 416 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: I found were very warm. They didn't put it into vernacular. 417 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: They didn't give us the side eye when we got there, 418 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 1: you know, they were very friendly and welcoming. I even 419 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: now live in southern Appalachia, so I wasn't too far 420 00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: removed from my home and from that location. But when 421 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: I got there, from the perspective of a forensics guy 422 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: and a death investigator, everything has got to be contextualized 423 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 1: for the environment which it occurs. You know, these horrible 424 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: events and horrible events occur everywhere. No one is immune 425 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: to them. But you know, for me going to piked 426 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: in and kind of seeing it, you kind of get 427 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 1: a feel for the routes that people would run and 428 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:28,959 Speaker 1: that there are a limited number of points of egress 429 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 1: I think to get from point eight to point B. 430 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: It's not like you've got multiple surface roads where you 431 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: can get to a variety of different locations. Essentially, there's 432 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: one way in and one way out. This is not 433 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: a location where if you pulled in your average Joe 434 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:46,880 Speaker 1: and just slapped them down, they're going to know where 435 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,400 Speaker 1: to go. It informs you as an investigator that whoever 436 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: ran these routes and ran the route knew the area 437 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: because there's several locations along Union Hill where essentially only 438 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: one car can pass us at a time in certain locations, 439 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: particularly depended upon the vehicle. And one other note, if 440 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: there's someone that is not of there, of that place, 441 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,440 Speaker 1: you will be noticed. You will be noticed. People will 442 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: take notice of your presence there because it's not heavily populated, 443 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: it's sparse, and so to move through that space, you 444 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,640 Speaker 1: would have to know where all the twists and turns are. 445 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: You'd have to know what to avoid, what's the point 446 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,880 Speaker 1: of view that someone might have a particular location. All 447 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 1: of these things are going to play into any kind 448 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 1: of scenario that you're constructing in your mind where you're thinking, 449 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: how can I go about getting away with a slaughter. 450 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back 451 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: in a moment. So, if the four Wagoners committed this 452 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 1: crime together, who was watching Jay and Hannah Rodan's daughter? 453 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: Was she in the car which is unimaginable, or wash 454 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 1: she home? I mean that's a special kind of crazy 455 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,360 Speaker 1: if you're going to take children along to kill eight 456 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 1: people and just have them in their car seats. So 457 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 1: I can't imagine anyone would do such a thing. So 458 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: I would think somebody had to have been with those children. 459 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,879 Speaker 1: Hopefully we'll get that question answered. I mean, in the end, 460 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 1: does it really matter now it's been alleged many times 461 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: that each one of them had a role in this. 462 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 1: I mean we've kind of heard that discussed before. Yeah, 463 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: because your question of doesn't matter. I mean in my mind, 464 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 1: what would certainly is if someone outside the four is 465 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: because then that person has been living with this secret 466 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: knowledge that is hard to imagine. Bearing, Oh sure. I 467 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: mean it's not like you just dial up a babysitter 468 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 1: and say, hey, can you come by and watch my 469 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 1: kids for the night. I mean, can you imagine are 470 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: my grandkids? I mean, you would think that they would 471 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: have spoken to that person already if there was a 472 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: fifth person watching the children or something like that. Lenny 473 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: kind of closing bites Enginette. Any thoughts of this moment, Yeah, 474 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: I mean I would love to see what Jake told 475 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,959 Speaker 1: the investigators. What was behind this? Was it just the child? 476 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,919 Speaker 1: And why? And I know why Jake? I mean I 477 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: kind of know why. Jake confessed he found God. That's 478 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 1: what I was. That's what I heard, So don't blay 479 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 1: all though. You know, if he ever covered a bond 480 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: hearing it, I think some kind of fine God. I 481 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 1: think some find God. And I guess he found he 482 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,919 Speaker 1: really found him. How about that? It will be interesting 483 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: to see if it was more than just the child, 484 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 1: because to wipe out eight people over a child is 485 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: you know, if that's it, that's a whole different type 486 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: of thing that I'm you know, you hear about domestic 487 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: violence incidents over children and divorces going ugly and a 488 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 1: spouse kills another spouse over control, But to kill an 489 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: entire family because you want one child is it is 490 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,120 Speaker 1: hard to wrap your head around if that is indeed 491 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 1: all this was about. So right now, all we know 492 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: is what Jake Wagner did, So I think we can 493 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 1: all speak with certainty that he had a major role 494 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: in this. But I mean, if you're looking at trying 495 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: to make sense of this, and you know it's the 496 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,920 Speaker 1: custody issue, but then on top of that, it does 497 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 1: loop Hannah Guilly in to some extent because her brother 498 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: apparently he got this. You know, Hannah Rodin pregnant. You 499 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: know it's not just Hannah and this child, as Hannah, 500 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: her mother, her father, you know, all centered around this baby. 501 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 1: Everyone who could get custody of this baby. You know 502 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: that may be driving him at that point. But then 503 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 1: you now have Hannah Guilly looped in through her brother 504 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,880 Speaker 1: and that's tied to Hannah Rodin. You know, I don't 505 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 1: is that enough. I mean, you know what if it 506 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 1: comes out that and I know we all we've all 507 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: heard the theory from the from the state at this 508 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: point in time that this was a concerted effort by 509 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: four members of the Wagner family. But you know what 510 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 1: if it comes out that you know, Jake was truly 511 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: the trigger guy, and you know the rest are sort 512 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,440 Speaker 1: of on the periphery helping and supporting. You know. Again, 513 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: I mean, this is just me shooting the breeze about this, 514 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,440 Speaker 1: but you know, it's just you try to put yourself 515 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,479 Speaker 1: in that mindset of doing what we know Jake did. 516 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 1: At this point in time, and the result of whoever's actions, 517 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 1: you still got eight people dead and children laying in 518 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: the blood and the you know, the aftermath of that. 519 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:22,160 Speaker 1: It's a hell of a situation over there. We'll continue 520 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: to monitor movements in George Wagner's trial, as well as 521 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: any developments regarding accused father Billy Wagner and accused mother 522 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: Angela Wagner. But while we wait, we want to turn 523 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: our attention back to the Michael Morian's story that we 524 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: covered in episode seven. I really thought there was no way, 525 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,239 Speaker 1: there was no way this could be going on for 526 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: so long and nobody did anything about it. One of 527 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: the best lawyers in a politician, and a sitting judge 528 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 1: all possibly involved in this network. That's how deep this went, 529 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: and that's when we knew we needed to get more 530 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 1: women who had been through this experience to talk about 531 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: what they said they'd been through with Michael Moran. We'll 532 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: have part two of that next week. For more information 533 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram 534 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: at Katie Underscore Studios. The piked In Massacre Returned to 535 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 1: Pike County is executive produced by Stephanie Lydecker and me 536 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by executive producer Jared Aston. 537 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: Additional producing by Jeff Shane, Andrew Becker and Chris Graves. 538 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: The piked In Massacre Returned to Pike County is a 539 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 540 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 541 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:40,719 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.