Speaker 1: Hey, welcome in. I'm Doug Gottlie. This is All ball
Speaker 1: Um All Ball. If this is your first time downloading
Speaker 1: it and listened to this pod, we do some current
Speaker 1: state of college basketball stuff. I'll give you some analysis,
Speaker 1: I'll give you some thoughts, and i'll rant and no
Speaker 1: break but what I love and I'll just be honest.
Speaker 1: Like I I love conversations with basketball people. I feel
Speaker 1: like I feel like they're family. I feel like they're
Speaker 1: they speak my language. But I also love people's stories.
Speaker 1: Everyone has a story. And I was I was driving
Speaker 1: is actually a true story. I was driving to Bowling Green,
Speaker 1: Kentucky doing a game for Stadium Sports, and I had
Speaker 1: done one in uh Murphysboro, Tennessee like that night, and
Speaker 1: then I had one in Bowling Green, West Kentucky the
Speaker 1: next night. These are the glandless the glamorous life of
Speaker 1: of Doug gottlieb U a couple of years ago. Probably
Speaker 1: this is pretty pandemic, I think four years ago. And
Speaker 1: the rental car I have a I have a like
Speaker 1: my rental car hack is this I will go from
Speaker 1: because I have Emerald Isle. I'll go rental car to
Speaker 1: rental car to rental car with the one with the
Speaker 1: least possible marks. Who doesn't love a car with new
Speaker 1: car smell? You know one. I can't drive something that
Speaker 1: somebody smoked in and too if I can get one
Speaker 1: with a couple hundred miles or with that new car smell.
Speaker 1: And here's the other trick is often new cars they
Speaker 1: get free satellite radio. Now this was before my cheap
Speaker 1: ass ponied up, so I got the app whatever and
Speaker 1: the satellite radio. I hadn't listened to Stern in years.
Speaker 1: And I was driving, and I was a Megan Trainer.
Speaker 1: Megan Trainer was on was telling her story and it
Speaker 1: was about he went in to meet to l a read.
Speaker 1: She was a singer songwriter. She played the ukulele for
Speaker 1: her songs and she had to learn the entire song. Um.
Speaker 1: But it wasn't it's all about that base. It was
Speaker 1: I'm gonna like I'm Gonna lose you you know that song?
Speaker 1: Really cool bluesy tune. Anyway, it was her life story,
Speaker 1: and I thought, man, I think about so many my
Speaker 1: friends and their stories and the quirky things that led
Speaker 1: them to where they are and the lessons they learned
Speaker 1: along the way, and how great that would be to share,
Speaker 1: and I mean this is like an audio book. Well,
Speaker 1: I think we nailed it with this one. I really do,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to give most of the credit. Two
Speaker 1: Shaka Smart. Shaka is a really interesting human being. He's
Speaker 1: also a fantastic basketball coach and Marquette really really good.
Speaker 1: So I want you to picture this in your mind, like,
Speaker 1: what do you do that morning after maybe your biggest
Speaker 1: win the season? They just beat Yukon from the sixteen
Speaker 1: thou people, I played great. He's the toast of the town.
Speaker 1: We have a set up interview and um parts one
Speaker 1: and two are an hour, right, we're gonna we're gonna
Speaker 1: do part three and four, but we actually haven't gotten
Speaker 1: to it yet. I'm letting you weigh inside the belt
Speaker 1: right here. Okay, So part one? Who is Shakra Smart?
Speaker 1: You probably know parts of the story. You know he's
Speaker 1: maybe you know he's from the state of Wisconsin. But
Speaker 1: wait to hear what he does, what he's always done
Speaker 1: after he loses a game. How did he become a
Speaker 1: college coach? Wait, before college coach? Why do you go
Speaker 1: to Kenyon College in Ohio? If he's from Wisconsin, and
Speaker 1: you need to keep in mind that Wisconsin at the
Speaker 1: time in which he was coming out in high school.
Speaker 1: That was the premier they had, you know, Bo Ryan
Speaker 1: and all the Ryan you uh, this is you know
Speaker 1: right as in the era which he left and went
Speaker 1: to u W Milwaukee. But Division three basketball in Wisconsin
Speaker 1: is outstanding. Why would you go to Ohio? And then
Speaker 1: how did you get the coaching? And then what what
Speaker 1: allowed you to climb the ladder so quickly? All right?
Speaker 1: Part one? Who is Shaka? What's he? What? What? What
Speaker 1: does he do after losses? What was it like in
Speaker 1: high school? Why go to Kenyon College? Why get into coaching?
Speaker 1: It's all in here and in those personal stories where
Speaker 1: you drive from point A to point B, and so
Speaker 1: many of you have texted me this is great. It's
Speaker 1: a must listen for coaches, Teck. I think it's a
Speaker 1: must listen for people because it's about finding your passion
Speaker 1: and deciding that you want to do it and understanding
Speaker 1: how to climb the ladder. Also, his personal life isn't
Speaker 1: here as well. Here's part one my talk with Chaka Smart,
Speaker 1: head coach of Marquette. I'm sure you're gonna enjoy it. Yeah, Okay,
Speaker 1: So I want to kind of I like to do
Speaker 1: chronological order. I think the brain works best that way, right,
Speaker 1: But before we do, UM, you guys at the time
Speaker 1: of this recording, you guys just beat Yukon, and there's
Speaker 1: a lot to it. But for you, considering all you've
Speaker 1: accomplished in your career, right at a young age, taking
Speaker 1: a team to the final four, obviously the various stops
Speaker 1: along the way, But when the buzzer is at zero
Speaker 1: and your team, your style beats Yukon, is there any
Speaker 1: sort of different feeling now in winning these games at
Speaker 1: this stop as opposed to previous stops. Ah, that's a
Speaker 1: great question. I think the great thing about Marquette because
Speaker 1: there's been so much success here in the past, like um,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm talking about like the seventies UM, and
Speaker 1: then the weight ruh, and then the great things that
Speaker 1: Tom Crean and and Buzz Williams did here. There's uh,
Speaker 1: there's a real real hunger to win games like that. UM.
Speaker 1: But I think there's also an understanding that we still
Speaker 1: have some respect to go take. We're not we're not
Speaker 1: thought of um in the same way that a Yukon is,
Speaker 1: and and we don't deserve to be yet they've won,
Speaker 1: um a lot more championships in games in recent memory.
Speaker 1: But UM, I think the great thing about here is
Speaker 1: right when you win it just it makes people so
Speaker 1: happy and most importantly the guys on the team. So
Speaker 1: that's the best best feeling. I guess maybe that maybe
Speaker 1: what I was wondering is is there ever a crisis
Speaker 1: in competence when you're coaching you know? Um, because that's
Speaker 1: the big thing with with players, as you know, as
Speaker 1: a corner player, right, it's the it's the guys go
Speaker 1: through up and downs in confidence, and you gotta coach it.
Speaker 1: You got understanding everybody's everybody's different, you know, and college
Speaker 1: basketball has changed and evolved during your time playing it
Speaker 1: and coaching it. And I just wonder if there was ever,
Speaker 1: you know, that crisis and competence. Then last night and
Speaker 1: some of these gigantic wins you had at Marquette, I mean,
Speaker 1: you flipped this thing. How having a heartbeat? If there's
Speaker 1: kind of a reinvigoration of you know what I do,
Speaker 1: know what the hell I'm doing? This stuff does in
Speaker 1: fact work. It's a great point and it's something that
Speaker 1: I used to work with a coach veteran coach named
Speaker 1: Larry Shyatt. Well, I'm sure you crossed paths was at
Speaker 1: some point, and he would say all the time, you know,
Speaker 1: coaching confident coach. The confidence of a coach is literally
Speaker 1: day to day. And that was that was kind of
Speaker 1: shys perspective. But what he meant was, your confidence is
Speaker 1: based on the team that you have. I mean, you
Speaker 1: you can feel like you know the game, you can
Speaker 1: feel like you you know, you work your butt off
Speaker 1: or whatever it may be. But the guys that you
Speaker 1: have out there on the team, if they don't exhibit
Speaker 1: the qualities culturally, defensively, offensively that you want to be about,
Speaker 1: then you're not gonna be very confident. And so yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: you know, for me, this is one of my two
Speaker 1: most favorite teams that I've coached in fourteen years. My
Speaker 1: other one was two thousand eleven twelve, the year after
Speaker 1: we went to the final four at VCU. And what
Speaker 1: those these two teams have in common is the guys
Speaker 1: really really really love each other, like truly, and there's
Speaker 1: also a level of humility, probably for different reasons, um about,
Speaker 1: hey we better do X, Y and Z to win.
Speaker 1: And uh, I'll tell you when you don't have confidence
Speaker 1: as a coach is when you know your guys don't
Speaker 1: have that humility and you're struggling to put that into them,
Speaker 1: and you're gonna go into a game where they don't
Speaker 1: necessarily have a full respect for what it's gonna take.
Speaker 1: What were you like as a high school player? Ah,
Speaker 1: passer man, You and I, You and I would have
Speaker 1: got along great, um, because I love to pass my
Speaker 1: Probably my favorite game as a high school player was
Speaker 1: a game where I had twenty assists and I think
Speaker 1: I might have shot like three times. Um. So I
Speaker 1: love to pass the ball. I love to uh to guard,
Speaker 1: pick up full court. That's where I got the pressing
Speaker 1: stuff from my high school coach. Who who's your schol
Speaker 1: Who's guy named Kevin Baver? You're still coaching in this
Speaker 1: state of Wisconsin. He's at a different high school now.
Speaker 1: He's done a school called Middleton High School just outside
Speaker 1: of Madison, Wisconsin. Um. And he's the one Doug that
Speaker 1: got me into coaching. Him and my college coach. I
Speaker 1: never really thought about coaching, but he, uh, he would
Speaker 1: have me coach at his camps. He would have me coach,
Speaker 1: you know, youth teams and Uh, it really got me
Speaker 1: thinking along the lines of coaching. But I was a
Speaker 1: terrible loser. You probably were too. I know you didn't
Speaker 1: lose many games, but when I was in high school,
Speaker 1: if we lost, I didn't talk to anyone for forty
Speaker 1: eight hours. And I look back on it, like, it's
Speaker 1: probably not a very mature approach, but I just I
Speaker 1: didn't handle it very well. I gotta be honest with you.
Speaker 1: I love it. I mean, I just I it's like
Speaker 1: one of those things where like social media has when
Speaker 1: people cry when they lose made fun of them, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, dude, I love that. If you're so invested now,
Speaker 1: you can't you know now when I start, you know,
Speaker 1: coaching kids and coaching teams, Like, hey, you don't have
Speaker 1: the right to feel bad if you didn't do the
Speaker 1: work to impair yourself, right, Like, I don't feel bad.
Speaker 1: Have you missed shots and you didn't you didn't work
Speaker 1: on your shooting it up, Like, don't feel bad. There's
Speaker 1: no big deal. Now. If you worked on it, you
Speaker 1: did everything in your power and you still lost it
Speaker 1: still to make shots, well, then you can kind of
Speaker 1: feel bad. So Okay, how good was your high school
Speaker 1: We were pretty good. We Uh, my senior year, we
Speaker 1: were upset. Um, you know, we were we were on
Speaker 1: track to go to the state Final four, which is
Speaker 1: in Madison, which is really really close to where we
Speaker 1: lived in Um, that was devastating. That's probably if I
Speaker 1: could have any game back in my career as a
Speaker 1: coach or a player, it would probably be that game,
Speaker 1: or maybe the Butler game in the final four. Okay, wait,
Speaker 1: we'll get to the Butler game in a second. Okay.
Speaker 1: So your high school was what Oregon High School? Just
Speaker 1: outside of me. So how far from medicine is fifteen minutes? Okay?
Speaker 1: And who did you play? You played as a school
Speaker 1: called Fort Atkinson and we had beat them twice in
Speaker 1: the regular season that we're in our conference. It's one
Speaker 1: of those deals, you know, where you beat a team
Speaker 1: a couple of times, then you play them a third
Speaker 1: time in the playoffs and um, they just they outplayed us.
Speaker 1: We did not play very well. We were a little tight,
Speaker 1: big crowd. Um, where was the game? Where was the
Speaker 1: game played? Game was at University Wisconsin Whitewater. So for
Speaker 1: that time in my life, and uh, you know, for
Speaker 1: that area, there was a big game. It's probably four
Speaker 1: thousand people there, and uh, you know, it's it's funny
Speaker 1: now coaching in these Big East games, or you know,
Speaker 1: when I was a Texas in the Big twelve, you know,
Speaker 1: being an assistant in the A SEC, the SEC. It's
Speaker 1: one of the cool things is just the perspective of
Speaker 1: you know, you thought certain things were a big deal
Speaker 1: when you were younger, and now you know, there was
Speaker 1: sixteen thousand people at the game last night and we're
Speaker 1: playing Yukon on national TV. So I'll never lose an
Speaker 1: appreciation for that. You get done playing in high school
Speaker 1: and you play Kenyan D three, but some of the
Speaker 1: best D three basketball is in the state of Wisconsin.
Speaker 1: So why go to Ohio? What? What was it? I know,
Speaker 1: Kames a magnificent school. Was it the academics? Like? What
Speaker 1: drew you there? No? I mean I was unlike most
Speaker 1: Division three guys. I was like our guys and and
Speaker 1: most Division one guy in that I went to Kenyon.
Speaker 1: I went to the college I went to for one
Speaker 1: reason because of the coach. You know, I was raised
Speaker 1: by a single mom um. She raised four of us,
Speaker 1: and you know, we went through some challenging things during
Speaker 1: during my childhood so I really wanted to get away.
Speaker 1: There was no way I was going to go to
Speaker 1: school anywhere near where I grew up. I learned later
Speaker 1: in life that wherever you go, you know, there's no utopia,
Speaker 1: there's no perfect place. There's good people in every area,
Speaker 1: there's not so good people. UM So I learned that,
Speaker 1: you know, when I was young wanting to get away.
Speaker 1: You know, maybe um was was more about just needing
Speaker 1: to learn learn about other places. But yeah, I went
Speaker 1: to Kenyon because of a coach named Bill Brown. He
Speaker 1: recruited me, uh started my junior year and um, I
Speaker 1: actually I was accepted to Harvard, Yale, and Brown and
Speaker 1: and I was kind of lightly recruited by that. I was,
Speaker 1: you know, I could have gone there and and and
Speaker 1: been part of the team. As you know, in IVY
Speaker 1: League there's no scholarships, athletic scholarships. And um I I
Speaker 1: went and visited those schools, Doug and I was completely intimidated,
Speaker 1: not about basketball, but by the wealth and prestige and
Speaker 1: academic credentials of all the kids there. I was from
Speaker 1: such a kind of a sheltered background from the standpoint
Speaker 1: of exposure that particularly Harvard going and visiting Harvard, I
Speaker 1: was like overwhelmed, so I said, no, I'm gonna go
Speaker 1: to this little Division three school with coach Brown uh
Speaker 1: and had a good experience, but then he left after
Speaker 1: my freshman year, which is one of the worst days
Speaker 1: of my life. Okay, so, um, how much did you
Speaker 1: play as a freshman? I started about two thirds of
Speaker 1: the games, and UM, I we something here with our freshman.
Speaker 1: Have done it since VCU called Freshman Orientation, and it's
Speaker 1: a once a week meeting that I have with the
Speaker 1: freshman and we do it from the time they get
Speaker 1: here all the way through the end of the season.
Speaker 1: And the reason that I do it is because I
Speaker 1: think about how I was as a freshman and how
Speaker 1: much help I needed in the mental and emotional adjustment. Um.
Speaker 1: And I really feel like that adjustment is not complete
Speaker 1: until the season ends. Take a little a few days away,
Speaker 1: and then you walk back in the gym and you
Speaker 1: just have this clarity about you and the fog has
Speaker 1: cleared and you're like, Okay, I can do this. I
Speaker 1: understand it. Now, let's go. Um. But my freshman year,
Speaker 1: I played a lot, But looking back on it, man,
Speaker 1: my confidence level, my understanding of what I didn't know,
Speaker 1: very very low. Fox Sports Radio as the best sports
Speaker 1: talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows
Speaker 1: at Fox sports Radio dot com and within the I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app search f s R to listen live.
Speaker 1: All this stuff is is so relatable. I mean, like, look,
Speaker 1: I was different background obviously, right, I'm raising um, Orange, California.
Speaker 1: My parents were together, but I too wanted to get away.
Speaker 1: And I don't know if it was my my dad
Speaker 1: was a little much, right um, but also just the
Speaker 1: whole l A basketball scene, Like I like U c
Speaker 1: l A offered me and my brother and my sisters
Speaker 1: at cheerlier there. We had season tickets there, right, Like,
Speaker 1: I love U c l A basketball, but I truthfully
Speaker 1: like wanted nothing to do with playing at u c
Speaker 1: l A just because I just I just didn't feel
Speaker 1: like the college vibe. But then when I was at
Speaker 1: Notre Dame, truth be told, I think, you know, look,
Speaker 1: I got in trouble. But the things that you know
Speaker 1: when you look back and you get kind of get
Speaker 1: clarity on what went wrong, I too was was intimidated
Speaker 1: by the wealth and the the intelligence of everybody around me.
Speaker 1: Like I was sitting in this they have a they
Speaker 1: have one of course, taught by the president of the university,
Speaker 1: Monk Mallow's president time. And I got in the course
Speaker 1: and Sunday nights in the Golden Dome, like literally there's
Speaker 1: a boardroom in there, and I took a class in there,
Speaker 1: and there's twelve students because there's twelve councilors they recommend
Speaker 1: one person and there it's the most diverse group and
Speaker 1: interesting group of people. But like when you hear and
Speaker 1: the first class was just everybody kind of telling their
Speaker 1: story of how and why they got there. Just go
Speaker 1: like what am I doing here? I do not belong here?
Speaker 1: And then you factor in. I had a coach who
Speaker 1: God rest of soul. John McCloud is a magnificent man,
Speaker 1: right Like he never looked like there was never a
Speaker 1: wrinkle in his clothing, He was never unshaven, his hair
Speaker 1: was perfect. Every practice was was like a symphony in
Speaker 1: terms of like you had to practice plan and that
Speaker 1: was when we were doing it, and everything was done
Speaker 1: for a reason. But he didn't do We had one
Speaker 1: freshman meeting and it was a weird one. He called
Speaker 1: us in and he drew a he said he first
Speaker 1: he drew up like a classroom, and you know, he
Speaker 1: circled the first two rows and you know, this is
Speaker 1: where we're gonna sit. And then he said, Notre dame,
Speaker 1: We're gonna reel in the big fish. But there just
Speaker 1: wasn't a connectivity, you know, and what you're doing for
Speaker 1: your for your freshman, you're exactly right, because every kid
Speaker 1: thinks he's got the answers and they all think they're
Speaker 1: going the NBA. They think they're gonna come in and
Speaker 1: be one and done and started, if not, I'll just
Speaker 1: go find the next place. But he didn't. He didn't
Speaker 1: do it. Whereas coach Sutton, what he would do is
Speaker 1: you had if you were in still Water, you had
Speaker 1: to come into the office and see a coach every
Speaker 1: day and then sign in. If you didn't, there was
Speaker 1: hell up. It didn't matter like it could be any
Speaker 1: time during the year. If you're in still Water, that
Speaker 1: was the rule. You come in, just say hi, make
Speaker 1: eye contact with a coach. So it wasn't as developmental
Speaker 1: in terms of relationships is what you're building. But it's
Speaker 1: still the same idea and I think it's incredibly important.
Speaker 1: Regards you mentioned hard times. Okay, what's the when you
Speaker 1: think back, what what what was the most challenging thing
Speaker 1: you went through going up with with your mom and
Speaker 1: your siblings. Well, we went through some some different challenges financially, Um,
Speaker 1: when I was I think it was eight or nine,
Speaker 1: we moved about half a dozen times in the span
Speaker 1: of several months. UM, so there were some challenges there.
Speaker 1: My mom was always kind of struggling to make ends meet.
Speaker 1: I'll never forget as a young kid. Um, my mom
Speaker 1: would come home and she would make sure we were
Speaker 1: good with like something to eat, and then she would
Speaker 1: go leave again to go teach Lama's classes to you know,
Speaker 1: pregnant couples. And I remember like just begging her not
Speaker 1: to leave because I didn't know. I was a mama's
Speaker 1: boy for sure, and I just wanted to be around her.
Speaker 1: And I looked back on that and I just didn't
Speaker 1: have any understanding of probably how I was making her feel,
Speaker 1: um when I was begging her to stay. But well,
Speaker 1: you're when you're young, You're not going to have the
Speaker 1: empathy and understanding of that. And then you know, my
Speaker 1: my dad is black and my mom is white. Um,
Speaker 1: So one of the challenges for me was, you know,
Speaker 1: it's kind of surrounding identity. Um, you know, dealt with
Speaker 1: some different different issues with race growing up, like a
Speaker 1: lot of kids do. I'll tell you what was one
Speaker 1: of the best experiences I've ever had in my life
Speaker 1: is when I was in eighth grade. I played on
Speaker 1: my school team which was all white except for me,
Speaker 1: and then I played at the same time on kind
Speaker 1: of I guess what people would call now an au
Speaker 1: team or a club team that was all black at
Speaker 1: the same time. And and literally we would practice like
Speaker 1: in the afternoons on Tuesdays with the school team, and
Speaker 1: then that night I would have a practice with with
Speaker 1: my other team, the Spartans. And it was such an
Speaker 1: unbelievable cultural and basketball experience going back and forth from
Speaker 1: those two teams. How about this, how about this? It's
Speaker 1: just amazing. So I was one of the first like holdbacks, right,
Speaker 1: and I hauled back for a reason, like my son
Speaker 1: is on the same path growth wise like I was.
Speaker 1: End of eighth grade, I was five tall, I was
Speaker 1: ninety two pounds or something. And my dad had already
Speaker 1: had like he was. He graduated high school at seventeen
Speaker 1: and then grew late, you know, so he was thinking
Speaker 1: the exact same thing, um, but the year I held
Speaker 1: back back then AU basketball and everything was all age based,
Speaker 1: not grade based, and all the kids Miles Simon's with
Speaker 1: my best friend growing up, but he went to high school.
Speaker 1: All those kids went to high school. So I had
Speaker 1: to find a new team. So two days a week
Speaker 1: I would go and my dad would take me to
Speaker 1: Sam Miner's house. Sam lived in Compton, and I practiced
Speaker 1: with the ball that was his team, and then we
Speaker 1: would play in a league at Westchester High School. I
Speaker 1: was the only white kid in the gym, in the
Speaker 1: league whatever, And like I think my dad would like
Speaker 1: and he was, he was all about but he would
Speaker 1: maybe come to the games, but he basically had take
Speaker 1: me there and Mr Miner would make me do my homework.
Speaker 1: I'd have dinner with his family and then we go
Speaker 1: and we'd have practice and then my dad would come
Speaker 1: pick me up, and that that was that was how
Speaker 1: he did it. And so it was unbelievably I opening
Speaker 1: for me on how like here's a a family lived
Speaker 1: thirty min us from where I grew up, but just
Speaker 1: a completely different way of eating, talking, thinking and being.
Speaker 1: And it was like I drawn it even today, right
Speaker 1: like I I messaged Coach Minor a long time ago,
Speaker 1: was like, don't call me coach. You know, like you're
Speaker 1: a grown man now. Anyway, it's amazing. Okay, So so
Speaker 1: you get done your freshman year. How did you find
Speaker 1: out your coaches lead? I'll never forget. I can kind
Speaker 1: of see it in my mind, like like it was yesterday.
Speaker 1: I was. I had gone home two take care of
Speaker 1: my mom. She had had a hip surgery and she
Speaker 1: my my coach, Coach Brown called me and I picked
Speaker 1: up the phone, and I could just tell there was
Speaker 1: something he wanted to tell me because he wasn't his
Speaker 1: his same kind of jovial self. And uh, I was like,
Speaker 1: what's up, coach, and he's He explained to me that
Speaker 1: he had taken um another job. He took a job
Speaker 1: a school called California University of Pennsylvania, which is the
Speaker 1: Division two program, and so he kind of went through this.
Speaker 1: He was kind of rambling on why he was leaving,
Speaker 1: as as as I learned later on in life, like
Speaker 1: it's a hard conversation, um, and so you know, at
Speaker 1: some point he kind of paused and I said, Coach,
Speaker 1: I'm really really happy for you. This is this seems
Speaker 1: like a great thing for you, and I'll never forget.
Speaker 1: He used to call everyone budd. He called all the players.
Speaker 1: You would call him bud, he said. He said, yeah, Bud,
Speaker 1: but it's not good for you. And I remember like
Speaker 1: just hearing the He had an empathy for me. And
Speaker 1: that's one of the things when there's a coaching changes,
Speaker 1: it's it's a little messy, you know, because, um, you
Speaker 1: want to do right by everyone, particularly your players. Um,
Speaker 1: but then there's your family, there's you know, different relationships
Speaker 1: that have changed, and there's there's a lot going on. So, um,
Speaker 1: that was a tough I remember, Doug. I probably cried
Speaker 1: for about three days. I'm an emotional guy, so I
Speaker 1: was very, very upset, and you know, thought about transferring
Speaker 1: just to get away because I had gone there just
Speaker 1: because of him. But I had some really good relationships
Speaker 1: in place with teammates and professors and friends on campus.
Speaker 1: So I said, you know what, it's it's it's something
Speaker 1: I started, I should finish it. Um. But I certainly
Speaker 1: missed him for the rest of my career. Who's your coach?
Speaker 1: That So my next coach was really really young. I
Speaker 1: think he came in like twenty six years old, a
Speaker 1: guy by the name of Richard Whitmore, and UM, it
Speaker 1: was just different. You know, he was coming from I
Speaker 1: think an IVY League program, and UM, I think he
Speaker 1: had played in an IVY League program, and it was different.
Speaker 1: I think when you and again I learned this over
Speaker 1: the years, just different stops and assisting of coaches and
Speaker 1: a head coach. When you recruit someone and you developed
Speaker 1: relationship with them before they get there, and and then
Speaker 1: you know, early in their career, and then a new
Speaker 1: coach comes in, necessarily that kid sometimes seems like a
Speaker 1: quote unquote lesser kid, or lower character guy, or not
Speaker 1: quite your guy. UM. In reality, it's just a different
Speaker 1: perspective and it's a different bias. But I never really
Speaker 1: was able to have the same relationship. You know. Coach
Speaker 1: Brown was African American, UM, you know, father figure for me.
Speaker 1: I was one of those guys probably like you, I
Speaker 1: revered coaches, I mean when I played, and I still
Speaker 1: feel this way. I mean, and that's why it's so
Speaker 1: hard for me. The way that UM, the media, I
Speaker 1: guess has changed as it relates to the the way
Speaker 1: that coaches are are talked about. UM. But I looked
Speaker 1: at the coach like he was ten ft tall. And
Speaker 1: if he said, Okay, we're gonna run fifty miles and
Speaker 1: then we're gonna run fifty miles back, I'd be like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'll try to do it. And it's you know, it
Speaker 1: took me a while to figure out when I got
Speaker 1: into coaching. Most players are not like that. What why why?
Speaker 1: Like again hypothesized for me, like we don't have all
Speaker 1: the answers. I saw this clip I'll send you. It's
Speaker 1: Bill self, is about a decade ago. But he said,
Speaker 1: like it's a societal problem. I agree with you. It's like,
Speaker 1: who do what figure of authority do we speak with
Speaker 1: the proper amount of respect for? We don't want the president.
Speaker 1: We don't with Congress, you know, we we don't with
Speaker 1: you know, commissioners of sports, you know, like anybody in charge.
Speaker 1: We seem to have an issue with authority. And I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't blame kids because kids a reflection of their parents.
Speaker 1: So the parents are our age. Right, it's like my age.
Speaker 1: And don't get me wrong, like I'll push back on authority,
Speaker 1: but like, as a player, the downfall of my career
Speaker 1: and my honest in my shooting is part of it
Speaker 1: is I listened too much to the coach, right, Like
Speaker 1: I I wanted to get the right shot every time.
Speaker 1: I feared sitting on the bench out of understanding and
Speaker 1: respect for the fact that coach, you take it, you
Speaker 1: take a bad shot out, you come buddy, right, And
Speaker 1: that was kind of how I mentally was. But my
Speaker 1: dad was a coach, and you it was. There was
Speaker 1: no questioning, There was no like, this is not this
Speaker 1: is a dictatorship. Okay, there's no question there. But what
Speaker 1: just again hypothesized for me because you're in it. Why
Speaker 1: do you think that we are in that place, especially
Speaker 1: for somebody like yourself, right, because you're not somebody who
Speaker 1: has You're not somebody who excuse my language, motherfucker's kids, right,
Speaker 1: You're not somebody who has any sort of off the
Speaker 1: court issues that would cause them to say, hey, you're
Speaker 1: a phony. You're not. On the other hand, you've dealt
Speaker 1: with this, you've seen it, You've worked with guys Billy
Speaker 1: incredibly successful. But it does feel like there's a change
Speaker 1: media players, parents. Why do you think that is? I
Speaker 1: think the number one reasons money. Um, I think that
Speaker 1: when you and I were your young kids. Um, and
Speaker 1: even the generation before that, you know, coaches didn't make
Speaker 1: a lot of money, and even even professional basketball players.
Speaker 1: You know, if you if you look back at what
Speaker 1: Oscar Robertson made or something like that, it's like a
Speaker 1: ridiculous So with the with the money exponentially changing, Um,
Speaker 1: I think that's complicated a lot of things. I'm one
Speaker 1: of the few people and I'll probably get in trouble
Speaker 1: for saying this. I wish that coach has made less
Speaker 1: but had more security. And I don't know if there's
Speaker 1: a way to do that. No, Listen, I actually agree,
Speaker 1: you know. Like so when I interviewed for Oaklahoma State
Speaker 1: and I interviewed for a couple of other jobs, I
Speaker 1: told them, I said, listen, I don't need two million dollars,
Speaker 1: you know, and everybody told me, like that's a mistake,
Speaker 1: because you gotta be viewed at that level. You gotta
Speaker 1: put a price tag otherwise they can get rid of you.
Speaker 1: You know, coaches, a lot of coaches and I don't
Speaker 1: know if you're this way, they put a big number,
Speaker 1: big buy out, you know, not because they want it's
Speaker 1: about making money. It's about like you said, security. They
Speaker 1: can't just make it a big enough number. So you
Speaker 1: can't buy me out if I have a bad year.
Speaker 1: If I have to that way, I can. If I
Speaker 1: have a kid who I don't, I can run the
Speaker 1: kid off, you know, if I have an injury or
Speaker 1: just have a bad year. Right, but I'm with you,
Speaker 1: like dude, a million dollars is plenty of months. And
Speaker 1: again again, scale is all important, you know, extend it
Speaker 1: and put it's for retirement so that you don't have
Speaker 1: to worry about it and not worry about kind of
Speaker 1: the day to day. But you're right, the money thing
Speaker 1: is remember those do you ever get the Sunday newspaper?
Speaker 1: Nobody gets newspaper anymore. But remember the parade magazine that
Speaker 1: would come into Sunday paper. So I I, I, this
Speaker 1: is what I believe. Once a year the parade magazine
Speaker 1: has what people make you know, like the post the
Speaker 1: post office worker makes seventy dollars. You start like kind
Speaker 1: of going through it, and it dramatically changes how you
Speaker 1: view people in those professions. Right the second you hear
Speaker 1: a librarian makes one like I am in the wrong business,
Speaker 1: you view the librarian completely differently. So I I think
Speaker 1: you I think you nailed it, Um with the money. Uh,
Speaker 1: there's there's a skepticism that comes along with it. And
Speaker 1: the reality is like if if you're coaching, if you're
Speaker 1: coaching me, and we're going to try to do something
Speaker 1: really really hard, which is when a championship or even
Speaker 1: you getting me to max out as a player, which
Speaker 1: is really hard. I mean what percentage of guys really
Speaker 1: truly max out and reach their upper limit as a
Speaker 1: basketball player. And so if you're trying to do something hard,
Speaker 1: you don't have room for skepticism doubt. Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: cloudy mind, you better be clay clear. And so I
Speaker 1: just think now there's just so much with social media hate,
Speaker 1: sound like an old guy and all the things around.
Speaker 1: There's just so much that Cloud's minds and the coach
Speaker 1: is no longer revered as a figure um And so
Speaker 1: that's okay, I mean, it is what it is now,
Speaker 1: but sometimes it can affect the ability to create a
Speaker 1: captive audience. I really believe, Doug. Think about the best
Speaker 1: coaches in any sport and the most successful coaches in
Speaker 1: our sport, coach k Dean Smith, John Wooden, Bill Self,
Speaker 1: Billy Donovan. One thing they all have in common, and
Speaker 1: they're all so very different in their methods. They all,
Speaker 1: through different ways, were able to create a captive audience
Speaker 1: amongst their players most importantly, but even the parents of
Speaker 1: their players, and the key constituents that allow you to
Speaker 1: be successful, the athletic director, the president, whoever it may be.
Speaker 1: And and there's always a question, well, the chicken and egg,
Speaker 1: what came first, a success or the captive audience? I
Speaker 1: don't know, but that's something that when you look at
Speaker 1: a coach that's struggling, You look at a coach that's struggling,
Speaker 1: and you say, man, he used to be a really
Speaker 1: good coach. But what happened. He's not a good coach anymore.
Speaker 1: You know what happened? His audience is not paying attention
Speaker 1: as much as it once did for a variety of reasons.
Speaker 1: And we could probably name two or three guys off
Speaker 1: the top of our head right now in college basketball
Speaker 1: if all under that category. It's not that they forgot
Speaker 1: how to coach. But there's this deal is complicated. Man,
Speaker 1: there's a lot going on around it. I think it's
Speaker 1: an amazing point. I was I was having a conversation
Speaker 1: with somebody today about NBA guys and their success or
Speaker 1: lack thereof sometimes in college basketball. And I said, and
Speaker 1: and you know, one of the things, and you can
Speaker 1: relate to this the reason I think that there's so
Speaker 1: many point guards, uh that are outstanding coaches. I mean,
Speaker 1: and like you name the couple of them, right, like
Speaker 1: Billy Patino, Um, like you're I mean, you're like yourself.
Speaker 1: Like go through all of them, Bill Bill self and
Speaker 1: and most honestly, most were not as like Billy Donovan
Speaker 1: was probably you know, one of the best players, and
Speaker 1: he became a great player, but most of them were
Speaker 1: kind of like us, right where Um, you had to
Speaker 1: have that ability to connect people, You had to have
Speaker 1: that ability to lead people. You had to work a
Speaker 1: little harder than other people, probably because of your size,
Speaker 1: right and maybe because you're athletic, ability and all of
Speaker 1: those things helped you in terms of how to lead
Speaker 1: a basketball program. I mean again, think about like John
Speaker 1: Winn was a great player, but he was a point
Speaker 1: guard and the leader, uh and kind of professor Oriole
Speaker 1: but coach k you know, like honestly, Um, I think
Speaker 1: that's it's an interesting dynamic in the relationship of and
Speaker 1: I know that that like big guys always like, hey,
Speaker 1: the people think we don't see the court like because
Speaker 1: you don't, you know. But so there's far fewer that
Speaker 1: are able, that are able to be that relatable, be
Speaker 1: that understandable, and have that alpha the type of leadership.
Speaker 1: Um that that's your point out. Now you finished it, Kenyon,
Speaker 1: and then you went and worked for coach Brown at
Speaker 1: at California Pennsylvania, right, So he I stayed in touch
Speaker 1: with him after he left, and at some point, I
Speaker 1: think it was my junior year, he said, um, when
Speaker 1: you get done playing, if you want to get into coaching,
Speaker 1: you can come be a g A and be a
Speaker 1: g A for me. And I was a pretty good student,
Speaker 1: so I had a lot of professors that wanted me
Speaker 1: to go into this really rigorous post graduate study. I
Speaker 1: remember my advisor wanted me to apply to be a
Speaker 1: Rhodes scholar um. Which is funny. You know, the basketball
Speaker 1: coach from Oxford came to our practice last week and
Speaker 1: he told me that when you go there as a
Speaker 1: Rhodes Scholar, it doesn't matter that you've completed your eligibility
Speaker 1: in the United States. You can play as long as
Speaker 1: you're a university student. Man. If I would have known that,
Speaker 1: I would have tried to go do that. I didn't
Speaker 1: know that at the time. But anyway, so my professors
Speaker 1: were really mad at me when I went to California Pennsylvania, UM,
Speaker 1: because they wanted me to go, you know, do these
Speaker 1: bigtions academically. And it was a no brainer for me
Speaker 1: because and I don't know how this was for you. Um,
Speaker 1: when I when my senior year was coming to an end, uh,
Speaker 1: the season was coming to an end, I literally felt
Speaker 1: like death was approaching. And there was this identity, this strong, strong,
Speaker 1: it was all I had. I mean, I was a
Speaker 1: good student, I had some friends, a girlfriend, but I
Speaker 1: didn't care about anything but basketball, being a basketball player,
Speaker 1: and so the thought of not being a player anymore
Speaker 1: really really messed me up. And I remember I had
Speaker 1: this countdown and we got seven games left in thirty
Speaker 1: two days. You know, my career is gonna be over.
Speaker 1: And it was a real identity crisis for me. So
Speaker 1: going into coaching was like the next best thing. And
Speaker 1: I still say, twenty four years later that coaching is
Speaker 1: a distant second to playing the game. Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean people people ask me like I tell people
Speaker 1: at all the time, Like, do you know I would
Speaker 1: give up everything I have outside of my children, okay,
Speaker 1: to go and maybe one of them, no, okay, aside
Speaker 1: of my children, to go and like one more year
Speaker 1: of eligibility to just go to just to just go play,
Speaker 1: and you know, more specifically to play with those guys.
Speaker 1: That was I I knew I could play beyond college.
Speaker 1: I thought I could play. And you know, I just
Speaker 1: want to play one. I just want to wear one
Speaker 1: NBA jersey, have my name in the back of it.
Speaker 1: Is just one fricking time. That was really all I
Speaker 1: ever dreamed of. Um. But I remember we lost in
Speaker 1: the Elite eight to Billy in Syracuse, and I remember
Speaker 1: it was exactly like it felt like we were at
Speaker 1: a funeral and We're sitting around the locker room and
Speaker 1: I'm looking at these guys and I'm just in tears.
Speaker 1: And I wasn't in tears that we lost because we
Speaker 1: didn't play well and they were better than They're probably
Speaker 1: better than us. You know, we didn't have I don't
Speaker 1: think we had a particularly good game plan, but we
Speaker 1: also didn't execute the game plan, and you know, like
Speaker 1: everything that could have gone wrong went long. We thought
Speaker 1: we were gonna play Duke. That's who we wanted to
Speaker 1: play because they had beaten us our sophomore year and
Speaker 1: were they were young and we're just we had we
Speaker 1: had the hammer coming for him, you know. And I
Speaker 1: but I just remember looking at Joe Atkins. It was
Speaker 1: my two guard, Brian Mottnotty Desmond Mason, you know, Fred
Speaker 1: John Seen, Alex Weber, even Glenn Alexander, the one guy
Speaker 1: that like kind of out of our circle now because
Speaker 1: he's done some stupid stuff. I just remember going, like, man,
Speaker 1: it actually kind of the first time I knew what
Speaker 1: like real love for another guy was, Like I legitimately
Speaker 1: loved those guys and that time in my life, and
Speaker 1: uh yeah, when it comes to an end, like I'm
Speaker 1: getting goose bumps talking about it because it is such
Speaker 1: a hard reality. And I also think that like again,
Speaker 1: I understand the transfer portal. I transferred, but like people
Speaker 1: don't get what you get out of the relationships when
Speaker 1: you're out of place for three years or more. Like
Speaker 1: you just Doug what you just described in terms of
Speaker 1: the relationship and the just the feeling in that locker room.
Speaker 1: Every guy that goes and plays college basketball should should
Speaker 1: experience that. And obviously not everyone's gonna be able to
Speaker 1: play in the lead aid or or or or or
Speaker 1: have a record breaking career. But that isn't that like
Speaker 1: that's the best thing about sports what you just described,
Speaker 1: Like that's why we all plays worked. And again, I
Speaker 1: I accept that members of the media are probably the
Speaker 1: biggest we echo of the wrong sentiments. You know. It's
Speaker 1: like I tell a story all the time that when
Speaker 1: I was in I think it was seventh grade, was
Speaker 1: when Hank Gathers died and I had I had met,
Speaker 1: I had watched them play pick up all the summer before,
Speaker 1: and I had fallen in love with l and U style,
Speaker 1: and I was watching the game when he died, and
Speaker 1: it was a hard one for me because I had
Speaker 1: had a friend when I was twelve dropped dead right
Speaker 1: after a practice, and I had this like fear, like
Speaker 1: at the end of practice, like I could die because
Speaker 1: it happened to both of them. Um and I went
Speaker 1: to the first round game at the Long Beach Arena
Speaker 1: and it was the most incredible memorial to a human
Speaker 1: being you've ever Forty four is everywhere, but when both
Speaker 1: Kimball dribbled three times in his right hand switched to
Speaker 1: his left hand, and he made the day. He made it.
Speaker 1: It's like it's one thing to do it to honor somebody,
Speaker 1: but to make a left handed free throw and points
Speaker 1: up to the sky and does forty four like everybody's
Speaker 1: in tears. And I just write that. I was like,
Speaker 1: that's what I want. And and I wrote that. My
Speaker 1: my dad had me write down like goals before high school,
Speaker 1: and I basically like, that's all I really wanted. I
Speaker 1: wanted to be a part of that. And the reason
Speaker 1: I coach kids now is and you know, why do
Speaker 1: you why do you want your son to play in college?
Speaker 1: Like I don't care if my son plays at a
Speaker 1: great college. I don't care if you you know, I
Speaker 1: just want I hope I dream of as many kids
Speaker 1: as possible getting that experience where they play for a
Speaker 1: man that they revere and have respect, they play for
Speaker 1: a school that changes their lives and gives them a
Speaker 1: sports and life family, and then you have the relationships
Speaker 1: of going through the You know, I hate running. I
Speaker 1: do not. I don't mind. I can run for days
Speaker 1: in a basketball court. I hate running on the track
Speaker 1: and I'll never forget. Like we used to do six
Speaker 1: am running, and we did six am running because my
Speaker 1: first time running at Oaklahoma State, it was August afternoon
Speaker 1: and we had to run to the track and we
Speaker 1: ran and we ran home and then dudes are falling
Speaker 1: out and it's like a hundred and five. So I
Speaker 1: would saw a coach like, coach is a bad idea. Man.
Speaker 1: He's like, well, the only other thing we could do
Speaker 1: with all your schedules run at six am. I was like, done,
Speaker 1: I'll let's do it. I hate it. But like I
Speaker 1: remember to this day, the last time we ran in
Speaker 1: the preseason, we all had breakfast together and we all
Speaker 1: made a pact. We are never even driving by the
Speaker 1: track ever. We're never never running on a track ever again.
Speaker 1: And like again, those things that's what it's really about, right,
Speaker 1: beating Oklahoma and and feeling like you could fly home,
Speaker 1: like to go and watch Sports Center, like even the
Speaker 1: even the losses, like those things, just that the getting
Speaker 1: in a fight with your best friend because you've just
Speaker 1: been around him too much, right, Like, those things are
Speaker 1: things that I dream of more kids getting that opportunity,
Speaker 1: And I wish that there were more people in our
Speaker 1: positions that could convince families that. Look, I know it
Speaker 1: sucks right now, I get it, okay, but it sucks
Speaker 1: every freshman in college. It sucks for there's no freshman
Speaker 1: that's like, this is awesome. I'm not homesick, right, every
Speaker 1: It sucks for everybody. But if you just got through that.
Speaker 1: The hard thing, Doug, is what you're describing, uh, families,
Speaker 1: parents and kids. It's hard. It's it's intangible. It's intangible.
Speaker 1: So it's hard to put a value on that, even
Speaker 1: though you and I know it's invaluable, like you, it's
Speaker 1: it's it's beyond whatever dollar amount. You can't put a
Speaker 1: price on that. It's better than that, right, Um, So
Speaker 1: why did you leave? Why did you leave? He went
Speaker 1: to Dayton from there? Right? I went to Dayton? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was. When I was working at Calpa, I was
Speaker 1: so happy. I would have stayed there forever. Um, but
Speaker 1: my the guy that I had gone to play for,
Speaker 1: and then I went to work for coach Brown, he said,
Speaker 1: if you want to ever be in Division one, then
Speaker 1: you got to take an opportunity when it comes. And
Speaker 1: I had worked the Dayton's camp. This is back in
Speaker 1: the old days when you worked camps. You know, I
Speaker 1: just did. I just did one of these with Dusty Man,
Speaker 1: and Dusty was talking about all the camps you worked,
Speaker 1: and again like of the things that are gone now
Speaker 1: he does that, did you know here's a quick aside?
Speaker 1: And again what you tell me when we were pushed
Speaker 1: up against times and stuff so good? I don't know
Speaker 1: if you know this. I almost went to Marquette. I
Speaker 1: didn't know. And and I worked Mike Dean's camp after
Speaker 1: committing to Oklahoma State. Wow, yes, because I like Dino
Speaker 1: that much and I like the guys that much and
Speaker 1: and yeah, I mean and um, I was here at
Speaker 1: that time. Mike Dean was had coach you know what players?
Speaker 1: Oh well, Brian Wortle, Uh, Mike Bargain, Mike, Mike Bargain
Speaker 1: is a great dude. Bart Miller. Um, Aaron Hutchins was
Speaker 1: our best player. So his his whole plan was like, hey,
Speaker 1: Aaron's a two europe poet, Like, bro, we're gonna we're
Speaker 1: gonna be oompa loompas. He's like, don't worry, you guys
Speaker 1: will kill it whatever. And Dino is one of these
Speaker 1: guys that like, again, if you're bothered by it. His
Speaker 1: favorite word as cocksucker, right, bart Sucker, Like he's like
Speaker 1: but in terms of like the love that he turns
Speaker 1: on for you is amazing. Right. So guys that played
Speaker 1: for Mike Dean loved Mike Dean even though he's a
Speaker 1: crazy person. When I visited there, Chris Crawford was there
Speaker 1: and Anthony Anthony Peeper. So I I go into the
Speaker 1: dorms and this is this is a beauty. It was
Speaker 1: in the spring, and I go and visit and I
Speaker 1: go to Crawford Peoper. Crawfords knows Woody because he looked
Speaker 1: like Woody from Cheers. And so I go in. There's
Speaker 1: a couple of beer cans on their table and uh.
Speaker 1: I was like, hey, you really, you know, pick the
Speaker 1: place up for me. Huh. And they're like, no, no no,
Speaker 1: you don't understand. That's the pyramid. I was like, it's
Speaker 1: like five beer camps. He was like, by the time
Speaker 1: you leave, it's a pyramid. So I was. I loved,
Speaker 1: Like my visit was great. We went to a Brewers
Speaker 1: game and we had beers with the coaches. And I'm
Speaker 1: not really a beer guy. I'm not really a drinker
Speaker 1: at all, but for the weekend I was, so I
Speaker 1: actually came back. So I committed to Oaklahoma State sign
Speaker 1: an Oakahoma State, and Um, when I talked to Mike
Speaker 1: Dean and told him, he's like, I'm pissed. You know
Speaker 1: you should come play for me, not that old funk
Speaker 1: already sudden like, but you want to wear camp. I
Speaker 1: was like, Mike, I just told you I'm going to
Speaker 1: oaklhom and say, I know, come work camp. So I
Speaker 1: went to work camp and your camp no, No, And
Speaker 1: I was kind of I was dating Nicki Colin that
Speaker 1: she was Nicki Tagger at the time. She's the coach
Speaker 1: of Baylor and she was the point guard. So it
Speaker 1: was dating her and I had a great time in
Speaker 1: the camp. It was awesome, and I actually came back. Uh,
Speaker 1: Nicky and I were dating. So I did Christmas that
Speaker 1: year in Platteville, where she grew up. So I was
Speaker 1: around Marquette and then we stayed at night at Marquette.
Speaker 1: Like no, he was awesome. Um, but yeah, the working
Speaker 1: the camp thing is it's another part that's going away.
Speaker 1: And that was all about relationships, right, and that's what happened.
Speaker 1: That's how Bill self got to Kansas. He went and
Speaker 1: worked Larry Brown's camp. Those are gone. So I I
Speaker 1: had worked uh Dayton's camp a couple of times, and
Speaker 1: then so I worked for Oliver Purnell, you remember him
Speaker 1: at Dayton, and he did a really smart thing. When
Speaker 1: he had a job opening, he would have everyone come
Speaker 1: work camp. So it's like ten guys working the camp
Speaker 1: trying to get the job. And it made for a
Speaker 1: good camp because these guys who are working their ass
Speaker 1: off in camp. But then it also was a great
Speaker 1: kind of window into who these people were over the
Speaker 1: course of a five day camp. And so I was
Speaker 1: fortunate to go there and that was my first time
Speaker 1: being in the Division one setting, and it was like
Speaker 1: I was like a kid in a candy store. Man
Speaker 1: Like University of Dayton. I'm sure you've been around it
Speaker 1: some like it's a similar Marquette in terms of just
Speaker 1: unbelievable history of winning and then just a tremendous crowd
Speaker 1: support and fans support and introa basketball. Yeah. My, I
Speaker 1: tell people this all the time. A broadcast a lot
Speaker 1: of nca games. The greatest game I was ever a
Speaker 1: part of got chance of broadcast was the first four
Speaker 1: game that Dayton played in against Boise State because it was.
Speaker 1: It was a Dayton home game, but they weren't the
Speaker 1: home team. It was the most unreal atmosphere. Came down
Speaker 1: to the last second play whatever that they want on
Speaker 1: and then we followed them to the Columbus you know
Speaker 1: for the next next two and they made the Sweet sixteen.
Speaker 1: That's what it was. I mean, I I and I've
Speaker 1: done plenty of dating games, so I have complete respect
Speaker 1: for him and and the understanding where they fit in
Speaker 1: Ohio Division one basketball. But that game, and I know
Speaker 1: they have had other greater successes, but it was it
Speaker 1: was ridiculous. So how did he tell you that you
Speaker 1: were the guy? He was tough? I mean, I was
Speaker 1: working at camp and I had no idea where I stood.
Speaker 1: And then he called. You know, he Oliver was very
Speaker 1: very business like, particularly you know, with with with folks
Speaker 1: that are not necessary on his inner circle yet, so
Speaker 1: he just he called me a few days later and
Speaker 1: he offered me the job. And man I I thought
Speaker 1: that I was. I was, I had hit the jackpot.
Speaker 1: My my salary was twenty four thousand dollars at Dayton,
Speaker 1: So man, I was. I went from living in a
Speaker 1: place at Calpa that caused a hundred and fifty dollars
Speaker 1: a month to get in an apartment that costs six
Speaker 1: hundred dollars in a month. So I was I was
Speaker 1: big time at that point. Uh what was it? What
Speaker 1: was it? Like? A date? Was unbelievable, just a great
Speaker 1: learning experience and for a young coach, it was it
Speaker 1: was really good. And that I was in charge of
Speaker 1: all the video stuff. So I was literally in this
Speaker 1: video room that was about eight by ten feet. It
Speaker 1: was like a closet for about eight or ten hours
Speaker 1: a day, and my job was to kind of break
Speaker 1: down opponents, breakdown our team, you know, typical video guys stuff.
Speaker 1: I also had the job at the time of recording
Speaker 1: every college basketball game that was on TV around the country,
Speaker 1: and that was a big job at that time because
Speaker 1: you had to set the satellites and set the VCRs,
Speaker 1: and you had to do it multiple times a day
Speaker 1: on the weekends when games started early and went through
Speaker 1: the night. Um, you have to get all the West
Speaker 1: Coast games. But what it did is it just exposed
Speaker 1: me to a ton of basketball. And I can still
Speaker 1: tell you about like all these different teams that I
Speaker 1: remember watching, all Jay Wrights, Villanova teams, because we played
Speaker 1: them my two years at dayton Um in his early
Speaker 1: years at Villanova, and it just kind of got me
Speaker 1: interested in Jay, right. So then even when I left
Speaker 1: dayton I continued to follow their team and how he
Speaker 1: played and how they evolved, and that's really helped me
Speaker 1: and coaching that foundation. How did you lead into the act,
Speaker 1: How that took place? Well, Oliver got the Clemson job.
Speaker 1: We were down in New Orleans at the Final Four,
Speaker 1: and I mean, you've been to many final fours. We
Speaker 1: were on Bourbon Street and I was twenty six years
Speaker 1: old and we were in an outdoor bar and somebody
Speaker 1: kind of tapped me on the shoulder and they pointed
Speaker 1: up at the TV screen and it was Sports Center
Speaker 1: and there was a picture of Oliver Purnell with the
Speaker 1: Clemson logo. And that's how I found out that he
Speaker 1: had taken the Clemson job. Uh. Like I said, Oliver
Speaker 1: was pretty close to the vest, so he you know,
Speaker 1: he hadn't told a lot of people, and he took
Speaker 1: the job. So I went down there with him. I
Speaker 1: was down there for about five weeks, but I was
Speaker 1: not in an assistant coach position. I was like operations,
Speaker 1: and I really wanted to get on the court, and
Speaker 1: so Coach Brown, my college coach, called me and he said,
Speaker 1: if I can get you the job at Akron, would
Speaker 1: you take it? And I said absolutely, And so he
Speaker 1: got me an interview with Dan Hipster, who was a
Speaker 1: head coach at Acron at the time. Awesome guy, and
Speaker 1: it was the easiest interview I've ever done. He said,
Speaker 1: can you recruit? I said, yeah, I think so. I
Speaker 1: can do a good I'll work hard at it. Can
Speaker 1: you work with the guards, Yeah I can. I can
Speaker 1: work with the guards. I played guard. I feel like
Speaker 1: I know position pretty well. Can you do a scouting report?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I did all the video stuff the last
Speaker 1: few years. Uh you know, when I was at Dayton
Speaker 1: and and before. So I definitely can do that. Okay,
Speaker 1: you got the job, and uh so I went to
Speaker 1: to Akron and Akron was definitely the most important coaching
Speaker 1: stop in my whole career because I met my wife
Speaker 1: there and then this isn't why it was the most
Speaker 1: was the most important, but this is an interesting aside.
Speaker 1: My very first day on the job, Keith dan Brod,
Speaker 1: who was an assistant coach who we can't ended up
Speaker 1: becoming a head coach. Later, he said, I want to
Speaker 1: introduce you to someone. I said, great, And we got
Speaker 1: in this car and we drove to this rec center, Jim,
Speaker 1: and we're standing in the gym at the rec center.
Speaker 1: It's the middle of the day, so there was no
Speaker 1: kids there. They were all in school. And a hummer
Speaker 1: pulls up and out of the hummer walks Lebron James
Speaker 1: and he walks into the rec center and Keith throws
Speaker 1: me the ball and he says, come on, we're gonna
Speaker 1: work out Lebron. And so I was kind of in
Speaker 1: the right place at the right time. I helped Keith
Speaker 1: work out Lebron Jame for about two months in between
Speaker 1: May and July, going into his first season in the NBA.
Speaker 1: That was a lot of fun. It's amazing with here.
Speaker 1: Here's an interesting aside. I got to ESPN. I had
Speaker 1: done games for a year and then went back and
Speaker 1: played in France. The guy who hired me at ESPN
Speaker 1: was a guy named Dan Steer, and so and I would.
Speaker 1: I did local radio for a year in Oklahoma City.
Speaker 1: So I I get back from France and I do it.
Speaker 1: I'm in a mini camp with the Timberwolves and I
Speaker 1: called Dan Steer from the hotel room and I said, Dan,
Speaker 1: Um I would love to do the NBA draft. I'm
Speaker 1: the most repaired guy you can get. He's like, well,
Speaker 1: come on, manas like, why would you say that? Well, Um,
Speaker 1: I played against Um Darko twice when I was in Israel,
Speaker 1: and he was obviously the number two pick. I played
Speaker 1: against Boris DL Michael Petres like two weeks ago. And
Speaker 1: then my dad's and a you coach, you know, I
Speaker 1: know all the high school guys. And then my brother's
Speaker 1: assistant at San Diego State, we know, and I worked
Speaker 1: for you, so I know all the college guys. He's like, well,
Speaker 1: I can't use you, but maybe radio can. And so
Speaker 1: I actually flew to New York to the NBA Finals
Speaker 1: just to meet the guy who's in charge of radio.
Speaker 1: He's like, sure, yeah, fine, Like somebody called me about you. Anyway,
Speaker 1: I was on that draft. But what I remember about
Speaker 1: Lebron James, and obviously now it it makes sense, but
Speaker 1: I remember mellow Chris Boss, who had known because he'd
Speaker 1: come to our games at Oaklahoma State, Joe Johnson, some
Speaker 1: of those guys were all in that draft. I remember
Speaker 1: when Lebron walked in. I've never met him before. He
Speaker 1: was a high school kid. And you know they say
Speaker 1: in basketball sometimes like well that guy sneakers squeak different,
Speaker 1: Like he's just different than the rest of people in
Speaker 1: terms of presence. I've never seen anything like it. Like
Speaker 1: here's he was like an eighteen year old kid, incredible,
Speaker 1: from a single parent home in Akron, Ohio. And that
Speaker 1: dude had the type of press. It was like Jesus
Speaker 1: himself walked in and decided, I'm going to talk about
Speaker 1: basketball day. Right, that's a Is that a fair like
Speaker 1: when he walked into him and obviously had been in
Speaker 1: the NBA, But there's just a presence about it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And and part of it is his mind. He is really, really,
Speaker 1: really smart, And I don't think he gets enough credit
Speaker 1: for that because people look at him and they see
Speaker 1: his physical prowess. But he's one of the most intelligent
Speaker 1: people I've ever been around in my life. Okay, how
Speaker 1: did you meet your wife? By the way, you can't
Speaker 1: bury the lead blind date? Uh, friend of mine who's
Speaker 1: the chief of staff for the president and introduced me
Speaker 1: as she actually tried to introduce me to her stepdaughter first. Um,
Speaker 1: and we never met. Wait wait, so wait, who who's this?
Speaker 1: Who's who's said at the BLA date? What's your actual name?
Speaker 1: So this woman is a great close friend of mine.
Speaker 1: I text her every day, every morning I text her.
Speaker 1: Her name is Candice Campbell Jackson. She's actually she works
Speaker 1: for the chancellor of Syracuse University. She's like the chief
Speaker 1: of staff. UM, really really bright, howard educated woman, and
Speaker 1: she was at Akron and she wanted to hook me
Speaker 1: up with somebody, and so she tried with her stepdaughter first.
Speaker 1: We never ended up meeting because her stepdaughter, I think,
Speaker 1: moved away, and so her second choice was, uh, my
Speaker 1: current wife, Maya. And uh I learned, you know, later
Speaker 1: on in life, that the most important decision that you
Speaker 1: make in your life is who you choose to marry UM,
Speaker 1: and and that it's just the far reaching effects and
Speaker 1: consequences of that decision UM are so critical. So you know,
Speaker 1: I was really really lucky to get introduced to her.
Speaker 1: Where'd you go on the Black Day? We went to
Speaker 1: a place called Jillian's and Acron and we watched the
Speaker 1: CALVS game And it was great because Um Maya got
Speaker 1: kind of an introduction right away and us being together
Speaker 1: of like just my passion for basketball and just how
Speaker 1: nutty I am about it, and then it's just kind
Speaker 1: of always on my mind. That's awesome. She's a keeper,
Speaker 1: right if on your first on a blind date, she'll
Speaker 1: watch a basketball game with you, well, I mean, as
Speaker 1: you know coaches wives, I mean it pretty much gotta
Speaker 1: be a saint. Yeah, And so it helps so much
Speaker 1: when there's an understanding of the profession before you get
Speaker 1: engaged or before you get married. You know what you're
Speaker 1: getting into. And so she got that definitely on our
Speaker 1: first date. And moving forward, when when did did get
Speaker 1: fired or did he leave go somewhere else? He did?
Speaker 1: He did? It was you know, it was we had
Speaker 1: a really talented team, but we had a kind of
Speaker 1: a group of guys that were challenging to manage. Um.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean we we as a staff were
Speaker 1: let go for you know, I'll never forget. We lost
Speaker 1: in the conference tournament. Um, and you know, kind of
Speaker 1: got the news from coach hip that that the A
Speaker 1: D had made the change. And so one of the
Speaker 1: things in this profession that's really odd and unique is
Speaker 1: that like when there's a coaching change and you're on
Speaker 1: a staff you don't really know what to do, like
Speaker 1: you just you know, it's like, hey, what do you know?
Speaker 1: You make some calls and you know, so we're all
Speaker 1: sitting in the office and Keith Danbrock came in my
Speaker 1: office and he said, the A D. The A d's
Speaker 1: name is Mike Thomas. He wants to see you. And
Speaker 1: so I went up to Mike Thomas's office. And again
Speaker 1: this is just hours after you know, finding out that um,
Speaker 1: you know, coach Hipp had got let go. And he
Speaker 1: said to me, D D said how are you doing? Shocker?
Speaker 1: And I felt like saying, well, not very good man
Speaker 1: like yeah, like this is not a good day. But um,
Speaker 1: I was like I'm okay, I'm fine. And then he said,
Speaker 1: well listen, um, We're gonna have a press conference tomorrow
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna name Keith the head coach, and I
Speaker 1: would like for you to stay. And so it was
Speaker 1: kind of the shortest window probably in coaching, of of
Speaker 1: not having a job. I guess technically I always had
Speaker 1: a job, but um, it was it was a unique thing.
Speaker 1: And then Keith did an unbelievable job at Akron. I mean,
Speaker 1: he he didn't get as much credit for national as
Speaker 1: you should have. But at one point there was like
Speaker 1: a list of six schools that had won twenty two,
Speaker 1: twenty three games in the season for I'm teen years
Speaker 1: in a row, and it was like all the heavyweights
Speaker 1: and acron what allowed him to be successful, unbelievable. You
Speaker 1: know you talked about UM coach Sutting Sutton having the
Speaker 1: players come by the office. Keith is the best I've
Speaker 1: ever been around at spending time with the players and
Speaker 1: making sure that the staff did the same thing. And
Speaker 1: he used to have us do this thing. I hated.
Speaker 1: I hated this. After every practice the whole staff had
Speaker 1: to go into the locker room and just hang out
Speaker 1: for ten to fifteen minutes. And I'm one of those
Speaker 1: type of guys, like I want to go do the
Speaker 1: next thing, Like I got recruiting calls in it, I
Speaker 1: got I gotta work on a scouting report, you know.
Speaker 1: I but it was ingenious, one of the best things
Speaker 1: in retrospect ever, because Keith was really hard on those guys.
Speaker 1: In practice. There was definitely some choice words spoken throughout
Speaker 1: the three and a half hours of practice, but that
Speaker 1: time spent in the locker room with those guys afterward
Speaker 1: It really repaired relationships and it basically got us back
Speaker 1: to like even in terms of like everything's okay, and
Speaker 1: now they can come back in tomorrow and we can
Speaker 1: do it all again. But if we hadn't spent that time,
Speaker 1: he hadn't made us do that, it would have it
Speaker 1: would a snowbolt. S Yeah, it would a snowbolt. Um,
Speaker 1: how did you guys play style wise? How did you play? Well?
Speaker 1: I mean we Keith did a great job because we
Speaker 1: didn't have the greatest roster um his first couple of years,
Speaker 1: so we played kind of however. You know, however, we
Speaker 1: needed to. Like our first year, his first years a
Speaker 1: head coach, we had a five five point guard, so
Speaker 1: you know we pressured. He pressured the ball and tried
Speaker 1: to be aggressive, and you know we mixed in some pressing. Um.
Speaker 1: Keith is a great offensive coach. He actually meeting potatoes.
Speaker 1: And I know this is gonna sound crazy because I
Speaker 1: worked for Billy Um, but just the meeting potatoes of basketball,
Speaker 1: like x ando, basketball coaching the game of basketball, not psychology, No,
Speaker 1: not any of that. He's the best coach I've been around. Uh,
Speaker 1: really really good. Why did you and pet my wife? Uh?
Speaker 1: One of many times you're married that you're married at
Speaker 1: that time. We're engaged at the time. Can't can't get
Speaker 1: away without telling me how you asked me. I messed
Speaker 1: that up. Man. We went on vacation, um, and we
Speaker 1: we we were just you know, we've been together for
Speaker 1: about six months and we were talking about the future,
Speaker 1: and uh it was basically like, hey, you know, we
Speaker 1: could get married, and she's like, yeah, we could, and
Speaker 1: I'm like okay, and uh she said okay. Net year
Speaker 1: and then that was how we got engaged. So it
Speaker 1: wasn't really, uh, any type of romantic proposal. That's the
Speaker 1: greatest kind of commitment. It's like when you're having you're
Speaker 1: having a recruiting called like all right, I'm coming, that's it,
Speaker 1: you know. And then I I made the most rookie
Speaker 1: novice mistake of all time. I'm sure you've heard of
Speaker 1: people doing this. We went to the jewelry store together
Speaker 1: to buy a ring, and the guy completely his eyes
Speaker 1: just lit up when he saw us because he knew
Speaker 1: he was gonna get us. So I basically I spent
Speaker 1: my life savings. I didn't have much money at that time. UM,
Speaker 1: I spent every dime I had on that ring, so
Speaker 1: at least we're still together. But yeah, my, Um, I
Speaker 1: could have stated acting forever. I loved it there. I
Speaker 1: mean I love living there. Um. I love Keith, probably
Speaker 1: the closest guy that I've been. He's the closest I've
Speaker 1: been with any I that I've worked with. Um. But
Speaker 1: Ma is like, what are you talking about? Like, it's
Speaker 1: an A C C job and you if you want
Speaker 1: to become a head coach, like, and you have to
Speaker 1: make that move. And plus you know Oliver and you
Speaker 1: love him and so it's not like you're going somewhere blind. Um.
Speaker 1: So she went out like she normally does, and we
Speaker 1: went down to the Clemson. I was there for two
Speaker 1: years and I loved it down there. Okay, so now
Speaker 1: you know we still have to get to working for
Speaker 1: all of Pernell. How do you get to Florida? How
Speaker 1: do you get the VCU job? So much other great stuff.
Speaker 1: I make few promises for you, but I can promise
Speaker 1: you that Part two as good or better than Part one,
Speaker 1: and it will you be it will leave you yearning
Speaker 1: for part three in part four. Anyway, my my, my
Speaker 1: sincere thanks to Shaka Um. He was incredibly gracious with
Speaker 1: his time and with how open he has been in
Speaker 1: our really a conversation. Um yeah, this is one to
Speaker 1: definitely send to your friends. It's a good one anyway.
Speaker 1: A reminder, The Doug Gotlip Show is daily daily three
Speaker 1: to five Eastern Time, twelve to two Pacific. We have
Speaker 1: the ind the Bonus podcast just like an hour almost
Speaker 1: like a radio show, and self podcasts. You download that
Speaker 1: in the meantime to tweet this thing out. Don't be
Speaker 1: afraid to subscribe, rate, review, tweet, retweet, put it on Facebook,
Speaker 1: send it to a friend because it's incredible stuff in
Speaker 1: terms of his path, and so many of you listen
Speaker 1: and you're either on your own path or you want
Speaker 1: to start showing path, or you've had your own path
Speaker 1: and you're fascinated by others, especially guys interesting in shock. Alright,
Speaker 1: stay tuned from bar two. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is
Speaker 1: all ball