1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: All the media, Hello, and welcome to it could happen here. 2 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 1: I'm Andrew Siege as soon as andrewism on YouTube, and 3 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 1: I'm here with it's James, And honestly I shouldn't see 4 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: welcome to it could happen. Yeah, I should really see 5 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 1: welcome to it is happening here, because I mean, just 6 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: just a second with you, James, how are you doing? 7 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 2: You're safe? 8 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 3: I'm okay, yeah, I'm safe right now. We are living 9 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:34,240 Speaker 3: through wild times in the United States. Every day is 10 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 3: a new hell. 11 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: Indeed, indeed, and although I'm not in the US, the 12 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: flames of that hell definitely lick the rest of the world. 13 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 2: In weis big as tomorrow. 14 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, they definitely do. I was just talking to people 15 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:50,279 Speaker 3: in Syria yesterday and like the alavis Ala white when 16 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 3: everyone call our levies, if you want to say it, 17 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 3: are facing quite substantial persecution currently and like one of 18 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 3: the larger refugee accepting countries in the world isn't doing 19 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 3: that anymore unless you're a white South African of course, 20 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 3: and like that has these massive trickle down effects for everywhere. 21 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 3: It's just one example of how America so goes, the 22 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 3: US so goes, the world. 23 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: You know, indeed, indeed, and not just in Syria, are 24 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: the flavors of conflict tearing up with the part I 25 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: think most people I now know what the situation in Palestine, 26 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: the way that Israel was carrying on to genocide there. 27 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: You know, the Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the civil war 28 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: in Myanmar, in Sudan, the you know, struggle between India 29 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: and Pakistan over Kashmir and the kashmir people who are 30 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: you know, left on the on the wayside. You know, 31 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: the Tamil genocide yep, taking place in in Sri Lanka. 32 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: I mean, there's so many things happening across the world 33 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: right now, it's really difficult. 34 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 2: To keep up. 35 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 3: Yeah. The friends in Meanma would prefer the framing of 36 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 3: revolution to civil war. They're pretty explicit about that. 37 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, you're right, you're right, you're right, I should 38 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: be using that terminology. 39 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not appropriate everywhere, but in their case, there 40 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 3: has been a civil war since forty eight, and it's 41 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 3: a substantial change with the twenty twenty one revolution. 42 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,919 Speaker 1: Right, right, right, right, Yeah, thank you for that correction. Yeah, yeah, 43 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: of course, I think now is a really good time 44 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: to have a general almost strategic discussion on anti war struggle. 45 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: And so today I really want to look at how 46 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:35,079 Speaker 1: we can come to the propaganda around war, the actions 47 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: that are possible to take against militarism at home, and 48 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: how we can build solidarity across. 49 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 2: Oceans and borders. 50 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, so to understand how to actually against war, we 51 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: first need to agitate against militarism. 52 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 2: And fosse who don't know. 53 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: Militarism is the belief or policy that the nation should 54 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: maintain a strong military and we prepare to use it 55 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: aggressively to defend or promote its interests. That involves glorifying 56 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: military vish use and ideals and prioritizing military strength and 57 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: readiness above other aspects of society. So it's a basic 58 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: Google definition. My copy of the Anarchist Encyclopedia is the 59 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: English version, which is aberged sadly, but the original French 60 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,799 Speaker 1: has the full unabridged Anarchist Encyclopedia. So with a bit 61 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: of shaky online translation magic and managed to pull its 62 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: definition of militarism as well. Miltarism is a system that 63 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: consists of having and maintaining military personnel. It's essential and 64 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: avolt goal is a preparation for war, the recruitment of 65 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: a standing army, in the organization of the cajuris of 66 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: reserve army, the accumulation, the putting in place, the maintenance 67 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: in a state of service of ever more modern, more 68 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: perfected war material. In short, it is the preliminary organization 69 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: of war. What are the implications of that, Well, all 70 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: over the world I think we can see, you know, 71 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: the consequences of statism, the might makes right, pursuit of conquest, 72 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: the fighting wars abroad at home for the strategic interests, 73 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: ideological commitments, resource claims, whatever the case may be. The 74 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: rivalries within the rule in class, and how that pleas out, 75 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: and how it's that that blows back on all of 76 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: our faces, you know, the profits the military industrial complex 77 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 1: which keeps this whole system chewing on, you know, the 78 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: blood of innocence, of course, the longstanding consequences and continued 79 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: work of colonialism. And of course, the way is that 80 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: militarism gets turned inward with this suppression of strikes, of activism, 81 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: of popular unrest. When the now militarized police aren't enough, 82 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: they often bring in the military itself and reports with 83 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: militarism you also have the narrative component, you know, the 84 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:54,039 Speaker 1: building of patriotism that so plans the seed of fascism. 85 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: States can survive without military is true. The state typically 86 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:05,720 Speaker 1: to ends upon some effort or some attempt at monopoly 87 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: on the legitimate use of violence within the territory by 88 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: some definitions. But the states which do not have militaries 89 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: often can do so because they've outsourced their military functions 90 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: to another state, and or because they have other systems 91 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 1: in place to control descent, to develop a certain degree 92 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,799 Speaker 1: of social condition and pacify the population. 93 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:31,159 Speaker 3: I'm just trying to think of states of the militaries, 94 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 3: like in my experience, I guess you have like the 95 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 3: Panama right, doesn't have a military. It has the Center Front, 96 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 3: which are like the frontier protection, I guess, but essentially 97 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 3: like a militarized border patrol. And they do have marines 98 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 3: and stuff as well, I guess, so they kind of 99 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:46,919 Speaker 3: do have a military, but it's a kind of a 100 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 3: renaming exercise more than anything. 101 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: Indeed, the same thing of having a militarized police, but 102 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: it's not a military technically, yeah, or having a militarized 103 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: coast guard and it's not a military technically you. 104 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 3: Know, yeah, yeah, you have the countries they republic the 105 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 3: Marshall Islands, which just outsources its its militarization to the 106 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 3: United States, right like the US. Well, I think that 107 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,599 Speaker 3: is a distinct thing. People in the Marshall Islands have 108 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:16,599 Speaker 3: seen the horrors of war very closely and also the 109 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 3: dangers of militarization, right like, the United States nuked the 110 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 3: Marshall Islands a country with which it had no quarrel 111 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 3: with which it was not at war, just to practice 112 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 3: in case it needed to innuk a country with which 113 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 3: it did have a quarrel. I guess the legacy of 114 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 3: that is very obvious and continues to this day there. 115 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 3: But if marshal Ly's people wish to join a military, 116 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 3: they can join the US military, and the US guarantees 117 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 3: their security and theory that it's it's yeah, it is 118 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 3: a distinct. For instance, if you joined the US military 119 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 3: in the Marshall Islands wish to access your veterans benefits, 120 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 3: the easiest way to do so is take a five 121 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,839 Speaker 3: hour flight to Hawaii. Like, they don't have any any 122 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 3: any benefits for actual veterans there, So I guess in 123 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 3: that case, like maybe it does give people a different 124 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 3: relationship to like state violent. 125 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I mean obviously different places to have different 126 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 1: histories as to how they came to those arrangements. But 127 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: you definitely see a relationship between colonialism and the outsourcing 128 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: of military functions. 129 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. 130 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: Now, historically anarchists have been anti militarists. The encyclopedias call 131 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: this aspect of the anarchist struggle. The aim to disqualifying militarism, 132 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: to denounce it's terrible and painful consequences, to combat the 133 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: warlike and bar expert, distigmatize and dishonor war, to abolish 134 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: the regime of the armies. So abolition militarism looks like 135 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: material relief from the oppression military violence, the redirection of 136 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: resources that go toward military toward instead things that actually 137 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: benefit the lives of everyday people, you know, the reduction 138 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: of pain and suffering throughout the world, the abolition of borders, 139 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: which so often are the motivating force behind military exercise. 140 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: And while no anarki so deny that armed strugglers necessary 141 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: for defense, it's not the same as having an imperialistic 142 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: or hierarchical ambition towards you know, power, over towards dominating 143 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: our populations of people. 144 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, this reminds me of the discussion that happened in 145 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 3: the CNT and Spain in the nineteen thirties previous to 146 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 3: the Civil War, even before that, right where they there 147 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 3: was a very profound and obvious discussion on how to 148 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 3: defend their evolution, how to defend communities whilst maintaining anti militarism. 149 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 3: And that's why we didn't see like that was not 150 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 3: a like standing army. Beyond you had affinity groups, right, 151 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,319 Speaker 3: and then you had like defense committees of six six 152 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 3: to eight people, and those people like took on the 153 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 3: role of organizing for a potential violent like in order 154 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 3: to defend the community, right, like to use violence to 155 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 3: defend the community against violence. But even as it became 156 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 3: clearer and clearer that Spain was like spiraling towards conflict, 157 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 3: they resisted the idea of establishing and I think more 158 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 3: militarized than that. 159 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think so what it's been a really 160 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: good place to look at first way, some experiments or 161 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: efforts or ideas would have played out, Strategies would have 162 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: played out, and I think it's really important to take 163 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: those experiments and see how we can iterate on them. Yeah, 164 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: and build upon them, because I mean what I've always 165 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: admired that we've carried on this anti militarist torch. It's 166 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: very important to remember the landscape US changed from war 167 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: times past. You know, we're not in World War times anymore. Yes, 168 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: you know, the strategies and the discussions and the approaches 169 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: that may have worked back then, it doesn't work. 170 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 2: In the same way now. 171 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: You don't even have to declare war officially anymore. In 172 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: this day and age. You can just say that, oh, 173 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: you're doing a special military operation, or you can just 174 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: send billions of dollars of aid to a country that 175 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: you want to support, and even troops to the countries 176 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 1: want to support, and technically you have un declared warrior. 177 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:24,959 Speaker 2: Yeah. 178 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: And you know, not only that, you also get to 179 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 1: unleash generational trauma and poison upon generations of people. But 180 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: it's okay because you're going after some terrorists. You know, 181 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: you just get to push money and supplies towards this 182 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: camp or that, and whether the US is concerned and 183 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: at least used to have to seek congressional approval, but 184 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: as we see, that's not really a thing. Now, especially 185 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: post nine eleven. You know, back in the day, people 186 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: thought putting pressure on the elected officials through protest for 187 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:02,199 Speaker 1: being a and you know, there's a the b to 188 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: be had to the extent to which that worked for 189 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: situations like the Vietamo. But as we've seen with this 190 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: song and Dance again and again and again, the protests 191 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,079 Speaker 1: are not hitting like they used to. You know, the 192 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 1: response to the protest has been so it's routine at 193 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: this point. You know, you just send the police to 194 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: bash some heads in or a bat to get the 195 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 1: military because the movers and the shakers on the people 196 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: who can actually be reached with these protests, you know, 197 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: and no matter how peaceful we proclaim our protests to be, 198 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:35,439 Speaker 1: we're talking about moneyed interests here, you know, a military 199 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 1: industrial complex that has to have line go up. You 200 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: know who who doesn't have to give a damn about 201 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 1: some people walking on the road. You know, the system 202 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:48,559 Speaker 1: has grown since the nineteen tens, the nineteen fourteen is 203 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: it has grown in such size and complexity to the 204 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:55,119 Speaker 1: point where you know, you don't have to care necessarily 205 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: about a single movement, but about a single action and 206 00:11:58,040 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: a protest. 207 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, and the two kind of combine and like what 208 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 3: we're seeing in the United Kingdom right now, right like 209 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:09,719 Speaker 3: there's the complete dismissal of protests and this like I'm 210 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:13,319 Speaker 3: thinking a better word than imprecise, but like the vagueness 211 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 3: of the definition of terrorism has allowed the government of 212 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 3: the United Kingdom, in combination with the absence of a 213 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 3: Bill of Rights in the United Kingdom, right to just 214 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,719 Speaker 3: be like, oh, Palestine Action and terrorists like you are 215 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 3: the same as the Islamic State because Palestine Action undertook 216 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 3: it in non violent direct action, right, But it's ludicrous 217 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,679 Speaker 3: to suggest that that that was terrorism and that it 218 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 3: doesn't mean any reasonable definition of the term. But yet 219 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 3: we're in a stage now where governments can declare anyone 220 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:46,559 Speaker 3: the enemy without any particular oversight. And that's the logical 221 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 3: conclusion of two decades of this. 222 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:50,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, to an extent, that has always been 223 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:52,839 Speaker 1: the case. I think what's different now is that they're 224 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: not even really attempting to hide behind any sort of 225 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 1: consistent principles or consistent standards, you know, because even back 226 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 1: back then, you know, the artists are being called terrorists 227 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: and being mm hmm true, you know, chastised for that. 228 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess also, like our class system is more 229 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:16,959 Speaker 3: entrenched than it ever has been in a sense, I'm 230 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 3: just thinking, like, wars are not fought by the mass 231 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 3: of middle class. And like the people who become senators 232 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 3: for the most part, right, I mean, in the US 233 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 3: of Downs, senators will have done military service. It can 234 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 3: sort of boost their career opportunities. I get that, But 235 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 3: like it is not for the most part, the sons 236 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 3: of the of the people who who start the wars 237 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 3: who die in the wars. Right, it's indeed people of 238 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 3: a different class in a way that even in a 239 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 3: distinct way from the era of the World wars, right 240 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:53,959 Speaker 3: when and when large numbers of people of the middle class, 241 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 3: especially maybe not the very privileged people that like did 242 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 3: die in those wars. And I think like the memory 243 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 3: of the First World War probably did have some impact 244 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 3: on like the reticence of some politicians to dive into 245 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 3: the second one. But we don't really have that now. 246 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: Indeed, so we criticize this particular approach of the protest 247 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: and I know that the inevitable question is, so what 248 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: can we even do at this point? And you know 249 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 1: this is why I consider it very important to take 250 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: a step back and look at what is actually keeping 251 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: the system going right, and what's keeping the system going 252 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: is and it's always been labor. Right, not to say 253 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: that labor and labor struggles to be all and all 254 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: of our politics, but it is to say that if 255 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: we want to make a significant impact, that is what 256 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: we have the greatest control over our labor. And so 257 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: when I talk about things we can do to affect change, 258 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: I always had to take it back to the ongoing 259 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: process of social revolution. The things you do to oppose 260 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 1: and of things you do to propose, you know, on 261 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: the opposing side of things, that includes counter messaging. You know, 262 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: even though we may not have the resources of mainstream 263 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: media or government communications, we have weight of mouth, we 264 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: have trust between ourselves, and we have alternative media that 265 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: can be, especially in this day and age, just as 266 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: powerful if sparked right, Especially considering the fact that the 267 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: general sentiment, the populist sentiment, has, whether coming from a 268 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: leftist direction or a right dist direction, the general sentiment 269 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: has been moving toward anti establishment politics. The anti establishment 270 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: sort of momentum is what's growing right now. And the 271 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: issue of course being that sometimes that anti established and 272 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: momentum can be hijacked, such as what Trump did you 273 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: know to get himself elected the first time he rode 274 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: that wave and you know, this whole Epstein situation, we 275 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: may see that foundation of his base potentially crumbling. 276 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 2: A part of it. 277 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: But we have to look at what is actually motivating 278 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: people right now and how they can be reached. An 279 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: alternative media with an anti establishment message message is I 280 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: think one of the better ways to do so. Yeah, 281 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: you know, wherever you see it, it needs to be 282 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: out there, you know, on social media or through other 283 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: avenues calling out the ridiculous Cassius bellies used to manufacture 284 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: consent for you know, to be wary of potential forced 285 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: flags can be used as a justification for military action 286 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: to consistently poor calls in the narratives that have allowed 287 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: you know, nationalists and and xenophobic sentiments to become the 288 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: force that they have become today. And of course even 289 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: engaged in that messaging. Of course, try not to let 290 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 1: campus on infect your counter message in either. Yeah, you know, 291 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 1: that's how you get people who are you know, they gung, 292 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,719 Speaker 1: who are about a free Palestine, and then they start when 293 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:22,120 Speaker 1: they ask them about Ukraine all of a sudden, it's 294 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 1: actually really complicated. It's actually the fault of the US 295 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 1: and the EU and need to and not Russia, even 296 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: though Russia is the one who actually invaded and is 297 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: actively killing people and this strial infra short as we speak. Yeah, right, 298 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 1: I mean there's conversation to be had about the US 299 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 1: and what's the EU, and about NATO obviously, but it's 300 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 1: very clear. 301 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very uncomplicated. 302 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: Who's actually killing people right now? 303 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 3: You know. Yeah, there is one country which is taking 304 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 3: the children right and trying to like re educate them 305 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 3: give them to families, in Russia, which is committing murders 306 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 3: of civilians. Like, we don't have to resort to like 307 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 3: ten year geopolitical trajectories to say that it's wrong and 308 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 3: it should be opposed exactly exactly. 309 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: And also I want to make this point about counter 310 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 1: messaging because it's a consistent gripe I've had, In fact, 311 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 1: one of the main reasons I started my channel in 312 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: the first place. With your comment message in whether it's 313 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: in person or on the Internet or wherever, don't stay 314 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 1: perpetually on the back foot, you know, the words, don't 315 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 1: just counter message. Yeah, you know right now, and it's 316 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 1: what irritates me so much. The right wing sets the conversation. Yeah, 317 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 1: you know, you have people they say, oh, we want 318 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:44,160 Speaker 1: to talk about critical race theory, and then everybody's talking 319 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:46,439 Speaker 1: about critical rais theory because they talk to where they 320 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: want to target trans people, and all of a sudden 321 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 1: we have to scrabble to respond to all their erroneous 322 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 1: and ridiculous claims about trans people. Yeah, that comment message 323 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: is an important, is important, but it cannot be all 324 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: that we do, right Yeah, and this is a bit 325 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 1: how to that feel. But you know, of course I'm 326 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 1: not the one who is partiality liketoral approaches. But you 327 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: can see some of that not just counter message in 328 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: but also actively messaging taking place with Zora Mum Danny's strategy. Yeah, 329 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,120 Speaker 1: you know, when you look at how he speaks, how 330 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: he addresses some of. 331 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 2: The badly the doarguments are made against him. 332 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 1: His rhetorical strength and popularity in part lies on his 333 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 1: refusal to carry on the conversation on the enemies too, 334 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: you know, so they will go at him for something 335 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: and he's going to spit it right back around to 336 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: talking about the things that it's just really master to 337 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: people to set the conversation to get people to respond 338 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 1: to that, because all other responses toward him have been 339 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 1: trying to distract from his actual message in and his 340 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: ability to steal on message is something I find really admirable, 341 00:19:55,840 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 1: despite you know, my concerns about the vestment of energy 342 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: and electoral strategies. 343 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:04,959 Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, there are certain things we can 344 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 3: admire about those people if we don't agree with everything. 345 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 3: And I do think like in that sense something I 346 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 3: think about a lot with like messaging and countermessaging, especially 347 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 3: around war. It's like I've spent some time in the 348 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 3: Anes and what people call Java, and like one of 349 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 3: the framings that I've consistently seen, and it's mostly in 350 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 3: like the Libleaning mass media, I guess, is that people 351 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 3: went to Rajaba to fight against Is or Dash or Isis, 352 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 3: whatever you want to call it, right, and like in 353 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 3: doing so, that is how the revolutionary Jarba is not 354 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 3: understood by most people, right, and they have taken the 355 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,679 Speaker 3: power away from it in their framing of it, because 356 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 3: people didn't just go. Some people did go justify I 357 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 3: right that there they went because they saw what I 358 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 3: was doing. They understood its inhumane and they wanted that 359 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 3: to stop, and that's admirable. But people also went because 360 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,679 Speaker 3: they saw what people were building in Rajava and they 361 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 3: thought that was beautiful and they wanted to defend it, 362 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 3: and that's admirable too. And sometimes the messaging around specifically 363 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 3: ra Java, Mia and Mar to an extent right their 364 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 3: international volunteers there too, and of course that like folks 365 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 3: from the AMMA who have picked up weapons who never 366 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 3: thought they would, and they didn't just do it to 367 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 3: oppose the hunter. They did it because like in there, 368 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 3: despite all the horrible things about war then and like 369 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 3: it should be avoided at all costs. In the conflict, 370 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 3: they have built liberated spaces and they've experienced freedom and 371 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 3: they have experienced how that feels, and they've built a 372 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 3: revolution that is beautiful in spite of the war, not 373 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 3: because of it, and they want to defend that. And 374 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 3: I think that's a messaging that we should we should consider, right, 375 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 3: because the messaging that everything has to be against something 376 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 3: bad always sort of it presupposes so that there can't 377 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 3: have been something good, and in some cases there has 378 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 3: been something good, and like we won't fully understand what 379 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 3: was happening there unless we understand that, and I think 380 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 3: we should push back on that messaging what we see it, 381 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 3: especially in the great legacy media. 382 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely, and that really connects to the you know, 383 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: the other aspect of the social revolution paradigm, because it's 384 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 1: not just about opposing and so it's proposing that that's 385 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: something different. Yeah, and that is often far more energizing 386 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,360 Speaker 1: and then simply talking about everything that's wrong. 387 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 2: With the world. Yeah, definitely. 388 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: And I think also for those who maybe have concerns 389 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:53,640 Speaker 1: about the risks of oppositional messaging, there's another area where 390 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: you can direct your energy to support the opposition without 391 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 1: necessarily actively being involved in it, you know, because it's 392 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: not enough to just oppose the system. You have to 393 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: build something else, and you could be part of that 394 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: building something else, you know, swim a message and you 395 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 1: want to be able to readirect people's energies to the 396 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,919 Speaker 1: actual frustrations and interests, you know, to re center the 397 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 1: conflicting the lens on the actual divisions of society, such 398 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: as class, to make moneyed interests known. And you know, 399 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: even though it's never been easy to be anti war, 400 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: you know, especially in the center of empire, and in 401 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 1: many ways technologies is today have empowered much greater repression. 402 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: You know, in Russia, individual and mass protests are met 403 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 1: with severe oppression, massive finds, geo sentences, et cetera. In 404 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: the US you can face police brutality, censorship, even deportation. 405 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: And in Israel, I haven't seen or heard anything from 406 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: the Israeli populus in terms of resisting what Israel is 407 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: doing to the Palestinians. But I know that those who 408 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: do stand against the mandatory conscription do face jail time 409 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: for their refusal. So it's not easy to be anti war, 410 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 1: especially in militarized and empire building territories. I get that 411 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: stress and that worry that opposition is still necessary, but 412 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: there's other things. 413 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 2: But we can we do it than just messaging. 414 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, there are things that take on less risk, 415 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: such as building an alternative, and there are things that 416 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: take on more risk. Now protests, even peaceful protests, are 417 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: no longer risk free, endeavers. And I know when most 418 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 1: people hear what you know, we need to push back, 419 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: they hear, okay, let's organize a protest. Honestly, we could 420 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: use a bit more imagination in this day and age, 421 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: Like I said, the protest is not hitting like it 422 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: used to. It's become like a pressure valve or a 423 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: tool of path it that could be tolerated for a 424 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 1: time and then met with repression the moment it's time 425 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: to wrap it up. And they have a couple of 426 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: reasons why protests are not you know, able to do 427 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,959 Speaker 1: as much. You know, they have the moneyed interests. You know, 428 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: they can end up being divided according to various arguments 429 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 1: of a strategy. And I'm sorry to say this, but 430 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: protests as of late it haven't accomplished very much besides 431 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: getting people mutilated or jailed or worse in the past 432 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: few years. And in fact, a lot of the resources 433 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: that could be spent you know, building alternatives are being 434 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: spent instead on you know, paying people's bonds and getting 435 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:43,919 Speaker 1: people out of jail, prison relief, that sort of thing. 436 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: Not to say those things are not necessary, you know, 437 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: don't don't leave your comrades to trot and jail. But 438 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: I think we need to consider the free data that 439 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 1: we've basically been giving away to through laying class in 440 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:02,199 Speaker 1: the form of pictures, names, addresses, identifying data that they 441 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 1: can be used to repress or just erupt or infiltrate 442 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:11,959 Speaker 1: protesters and protesting organizations down the line, as James Herod 443 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 1: and s another James. As James Herod wrote in the 444 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: Weakness of our politics of protest, we have been getting 445 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 1: some of these critiques of protests from He says, thus, 446 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: instead of powerfully concentrate in our mental and physical energies 447 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: on solving this problem, to eliminate this obstacle to defeating capitalism, 448 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,879 Speaker 1: we are taking to the streets once again merely protested, 449 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:41,439 Speaker 1: merely incasion of what is basically mindless activism. Later, he says, 450 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 1: it's easy to agree on what to protest against. The 451 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: list of things that needs to be stopped on the 452 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: capitalism is long, so long, in fact, we don't even. 453 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 2: Need to agree. 454 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: There's plenty to choose from, so just pick something that 455 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 1: suits you. Perhaps this is why I'm meant so many 456 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 1: activists got involved in protesting. It's not so easy, though, 457 00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: to figure out what we want to replace capitalism with, 458 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: to work out convincing arguments about how it will possibly work. 459 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,959 Speaker 1: And they set about creating such a social world, especially 460 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 1: since so little energy has been devoted to the task 461 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 1: end quote. And you know, I get why protests are popular. 462 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: You know, as he says, it has a low barrier 463 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: to entry. You just have to show up. And in 464 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: a society that has been so deliberately atomized were mass 465 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: collective action as we made so difficult, protests has become 466 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 1: pretty much a very easy avenue to get those things done. Yeah, 467 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 1: and you know, protests can work in Sydney instances for 468 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: them and any goals, but I think that those uses 469 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: are diminishing day by day in the cost benefits analysis. 470 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm just thinking about Like there was a letter 471 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 3: Georgio World wrote to one of his readers on the 472 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,400 Speaker 3: subject of anti fascism where all were was lamenting that 473 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 3: the anti fascism that he was encountering in England right 474 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,159 Speaker 3: in between his participation in the Spanish Civil War and 475 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,159 Speaker 3: the Second World War or was always centered on hate 476 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 3: and like it's sort of an idea. We get the 477 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 3: two Minutes of Hate later in nineteen eighty four, right, 478 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,680 Speaker 3: but maybe it comes from here, and like it never 479 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 3: proposed an alternative. It just said it pointed to something. 480 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,679 Speaker 3: It said bad, something I've tried not to do in 481 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 3: my journalism. Right, It's very often we do this a 482 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 3: journalists too. We point something and say bad, and we 483 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 3: don't look for the waste that it could become better. 484 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 3: And so like protesting can become such an identity for 485 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 3: people like you see it. I'm just thinking of like 486 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 3: every time I get sent a link to Instagram, right, 487 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 3: which is a platform I don't really participate on, but 488 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 3: I will look at things and they'll be like, oh, 489 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 3: San Diego protest news, san Diego protester, so Cow protester, 490 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 3: and like, I think we should resist that being an 491 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 3: identity because we want to build something beautiful as well 492 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 3: as oppose what is bad. And if we don't have 493 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 3: something beautiful to propose, what do we do out there? 494 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 2: Exactly? Exactly? 495 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: And you know there's room for protests. I don't want 496 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: to give off the impression and that there isn't you know, 497 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:14,239 Speaker 1: But for all the lovely talk about peaceful protests, that 498 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: works when there's an actual threat backing up those protests. 499 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 1: You know, you don't just do the peaceful protest. You know, 500 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: Gandhi didn't single handedly win India's independence by marching peacefully. 501 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: You know, there has to be something back, and it's 502 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: up or else It's going to be very easy to ignore. 503 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 2: And suppress. 504 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that protests should not be our 505 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,479 Speaker 1: default right now. They are our default, and I think 506 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: they are better uses of all collective time, energy and resources, 507 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: even though protests are very easy compared to some of 508 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: the things. 509 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 2: That are more necessary right now. 510 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: You know, but if protest is where you're dead set 511 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: on funneling energy, I would just say that you should 512 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: at least learn d r S strategies. You know, their 513 00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: resources online to get some information on that. De arrest strategies, 514 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: you can look it up. But if it's possible, if 515 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: you see the situation playing out, you know, try not 516 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: to sit by and let your comrades get pulled away. 517 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: You know, it is very possible the numbers on your 518 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 1: side to prevent the police from harassment targets and taken 519 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: away people. You know, there's other stuff you can do 520 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: as well besides protests that I keep alluding to, because 521 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: you know, sadly the media is no longer you know, 522 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 1: a safe space to share things in depth in some cases. 523 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: But just remember that the key is actual disruption. You know, 524 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: the media will not be with you, it'll be trying 525 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 1: to manufacture consent on everything that you do. Manufacture consent 526 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 1: against any action taken on the things that you do. 527 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: And the only way to counteract that is to maintain 528 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 1: relationships on the ground, to maintain actual local solidarity. Because 529 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: once you have those local relationships, in that local solidarity, 530 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: there's no amount of things that the media can do 531 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 1: the media could stir up that can vent the people 532 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 1: who see that you're on their side, see that you're 533 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: stand up for them. 534 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 2: To turn a gention. Right. 535 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: What problem happens is when you don't have any relationships, 536 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: you don't have any networks, you don't have any community building, 537 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: You just doing stuff. The messaging is unclear. 538 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 2: You know. 539 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: That's where I think the media could really pounce on that. 540 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: I would also say, you know, sabotage, you know, hit 541 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: their pockets. 542 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 2: And the main thing. 543 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: The thing that I've been alluded to earlier, is to strike, 544 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: you know, to organize strikes to use ther labor power. 545 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: Worker's power still comes from a participation in production and 546 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: the threat of withdrawing our participation. We have to realize 547 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: that in this time we're living in, even the effectiveness 548 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 1: of strikes have come under threat in two ways. The 549 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: first way is that the permanence of employment is not 550 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: what it used to be. And with the rise and 551 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,479 Speaker 1: spread of AI, you know, you have to ask yourself 552 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 1: how long will strike since ITTA in fields be effective anymore. 553 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: You know, I have my doubt that EI will ever 554 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 1: reach a point where it can replace people. But honestly, 555 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: for a lot of these companies, they don't necessarily care 556 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: about whether it's capable of replacing people or not. They 557 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: will still try and use it to replace people. So 558 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: we have to be cognizant of the fact that this 559 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: is the direction they're pushing things in, and we have 560 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: to be able to stand up against that before we 561 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 1: reach a point where between AI and you know, the 562 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: nature of temporary work of the gig economy, it becomes 563 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 1: harder and harder to organize ourselves. 564 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. 565 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: The other thing that I've noticed that it's made strikeing 566 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 1: so difficult and that we have to be aware of, 567 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: is the pacification of the domestication of unions. Right, there 568 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: was a time historically were a powerful, influential revolutionary even 569 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: for us, such as not the case today. Unfortunately. You know, 570 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 1: they have some legislation put in place that many unions 571 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 1: are terrified of crossing. Every I has to be dotted, 572 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 1: every ts to be crossed, and so the things that 573 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 1: would actually make union action the most effective after the 574 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: things that unions nowadays will refuse to do, sympathy strikes, 575 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: general strikes. And so what can we do if we 576 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: are in an industry where the union is collaboration with management, 577 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: with union is utterly reformist to the union refuses to 578 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 1: actually step up and represent the people are supposed to 579 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: represent it. And this is where historically wildcat illegalist strikes 580 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: have had to come into play. Strikes that do not 581 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: depend upon legality, that do not sit back and wave permission, 582 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: that carry far more risks, of course, that are far 583 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 1: more difficult to organize, but are going to be necessary 584 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 1: if we want to liberate ourselves from this constant capitulation 585 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,800 Speaker 1: toward the machine. In the article Striking against the Work 586 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: War Machine by Jeff Schantz and PJ. Lily, they said, 587 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 1: quote wartime strikes and sabotage partly because their illegal and 588 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: unsanched of nature bring rank and file workers together outside 589 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,399 Speaker 1: of union structures. Workers have to make crucial decisions about 590 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: for this strike directly in face to face meetings or 591 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,799 Speaker 1: on the picquet lines. Bureaucrats who are left to their 592 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: fundamental role of broken with the bosses can be relegated 593 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 1: to this sidelines and such situations in Germany in nineteen seventeen, 594 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,399 Speaker 1: illegal strikes help us sweep the union structures right out 595 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:54,359 Speaker 1: of workplaces. Strikes increasingly took on an anti union as 596 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: well as anti boss character, with wildcats occurring in crowing 597 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,319 Speaker 1: numbers throughout the armor this and beyond. So I wanted 598 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: to of course pull on this example because this is 599 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 1: not a unique issue. Right Even historically where unions have 600 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:14,319 Speaker 1: stood against the struggle of workers against more or against 601 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 1: you know, actually defending the class interests, the rank and 602 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: file have had to organize themselves importantly, So that's also 603 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: something to keep in mind. Yeah, and last but least, 604 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: I just want to see to s ry briefly on 605 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: the proposed side of the social revolution equation when it 606 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 1: comes to anti war struggle, and as usual, this is 607 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: going to take solidarity materially, not just saying that we 608 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,880 Speaker 1: stand in solidarity with such and such and such, actually 609 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: share an aid, share a notes, supporting refugees and going 610 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,719 Speaker 1: fully the because this, I think is where a lot 611 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,240 Speaker 1: of our energy needs to be right now. Our efforts 612 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 1: to oppose are going to be for the most part 613 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,800 Speaker 1: to us as long as we don't have an underlying 614 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,760 Speaker 1: structure that we are building upon that be a seeken 615 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,759 Speaker 1: to defend and to spa You know, we are not 616 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: at a position right now where we pose muchever threat yet, 617 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 1: and we also have to consider that merely posing a 618 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 1: threat is not going to liberate us by itself. So 619 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,720 Speaker 1: I want you to consider, as we you know, wrap 620 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,720 Speaker 1: up this episode, what you can do to put forward 621 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,919 Speaker 1: that our seriences to actually try to create the new 622 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: social arrangements that we think should replace capitalist statust militarist order. 623 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: And this is something that I talk about on my 624 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,320 Speaker 1: channel of course. I talk about building the commons, building 625 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 1: alternative media, autentsive economy, and developing our powers, our drives, 626 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,359 Speaker 1: and our consciousness. And so you can check that out 627 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: if you'd like. Unfortunately, this is it is happening here, 628 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,320 Speaker 1: and don't forget you could check out the YouTube, the Patreon, 629 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 1: et cetera, or Power to all the people Peace. 630 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 2: It could happen here is a production of cool Zone Media. 631 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 632 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,240 Speaker 2: coolzonmedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio, app, 633 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,360 Speaker 2: Apple podcasts, or wherever. 634 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,840 Speaker 3: You listen to podcasts, you can now find sources for 635 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 3: it could happen here, listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks 636 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 3: for listening.