1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: Hi, Brian, Hi Katie. So what do you remember from 2 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:10,799 Speaker 1: election night two thousand and sixteen. You and I worked 3 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: there together covering it when we were both working at Yahoo. 4 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: We were in the studio in Times Square, right, and 5 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,119 Speaker 1: everybody you went into that night with the expectation the 6 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: Hillary was gonna win. The only question was what was 7 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 1: her margin of victory, how many Republican states was she 8 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: going to carry? And it quickly became sort of the 9 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: Baton death March as Florida fell, then North Carolina, Virginia 10 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: she eked by despite the fact that her vice presidential 11 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:43,239 Speaker 1: running mate was Tim Kane, the Senator from Virginia. I 12 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: started wondering about the outcome when that happened. And then 13 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: she started showing weakness in states that had been won 14 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: by Democrats for a generation. States like Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania. 15 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: Was it Wisconsin before Michigan, because wasn't Michigan? Really was wisconin? 16 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: I remember it was around ten o'clock, I believe, when 17 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: Wisconsin was called for Donald Trump. I wrote a note 18 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: to Jamal Simmons, the Democratic Right, and I said, how 19 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: bad is this? And he wrote me back. I put 20 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 1: it on my legal pad really bad, and he looked, 21 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: honestly sway he did. He looked so stunned, and I 22 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 1: think everybody was kind of thinking, wait, seriously, what is 23 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: going on here. I'll never forget that one moment when 24 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: a Donald Trump presidency became a reality. Well, I remember 25 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: the Clinton official I was texting with who earlier in 26 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 1: the evening, had said, Yeah, we can afford to lose Florida, 27 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: we can afford to lose North Carolina. He wasn't arguing 28 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: that they could afford to lose Wisconsin or Pennsylvania. They 29 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: just always assumed that those states were in the bag, 30 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: and as it turns out, they were not. Here we 31 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: are nearly one year since that election night in two 32 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: US in sixteen, and we thought this was a good 33 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: time to take stock of what happened and what has 34 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: happened since by talking to one of my favorite political analysts, 35 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: Norm Ornstein. Norm is kind of like the fourth branch 36 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 1: of government. He's been around, so that's what that's what 37 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: he tells us kidding. He's a very modest, wonderful guy, 38 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: and he's made a bit of a transition over the 39 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,119 Speaker 1: last few years. He was kind of a centrist thoughtful, 40 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: very academic analyst of thoughtful but low key, and he's 41 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: gone rogue, to quote Sarah Palin, and and has become 42 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: just a ferocious, angry critic of the way Washington has 43 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: failed in general, and Donald Trump in particular, and the 44 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: Republican Party as well specifically. He's taken sides. You know, 45 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: he used to say, oh, both parties were broken. Now 46 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 1: he says very clearly no, no, the Republicans have gone 47 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: off the deep end. So we had a wonderful conversation 48 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: with Norm about election night, about what happened, about what 49 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: has happened since. We also talked to Norm about his 50 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: commitment to really removing the stigma of mental illness in 51 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: this country, something that is very personal to him, Brian, 52 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: as you know, because his son died in two thousand 53 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: fifteen after wrestling with mental illness for a very long time. 54 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: So this is something that's extremely personal to Norm. So 55 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: here's our conversation with Norm Ornstein one year after the 56 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 1: election of two thousand and sixteen. Norm Ornstein, Welcome to 57 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: our podcast. It's a joy to be with you. So 58 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: first of all, you know this podcast is is marking 59 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: almost the one year anniversary of Donald Trump's election. And 60 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: it's still actually when I say those words, I still think, Wow, 61 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: how did that happen? Brian and I were just recalling 62 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: norm what our experience was like on election day, and 63 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: I'm curious, what was it like for you. So when 64 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: you said we're almost there one year, I did a 65 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: spit take, of course, in the classic vein. Um so 66 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: I was not in the same room. Yeah, definitely, and 67 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: please wipe off the microphone. Uh. So I was up 68 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: in New York actually on air with BBC, and uh, 69 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: to my credit, I would say, trying not too hard 70 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: to pat myself on the back I had back in 71 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: two thousand and fifteen said uh, watch out for Donald 72 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 1: Trump to win a nomination. But I still thought, based 73 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: on what I was seeing in the polls and elsewhere, 74 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: that Clinton was gonna win, but by a narrower margin 75 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: than we had thought otherwise. And watching as the results 76 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 1: began to come in, uh from Florida, I got this 77 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: eerie feeling. I'll never forget that. When Frank Lentz came 78 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 1: to Yahoo where we were covering this, uh, he said 79 00:04:57,760 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: to me in the green room, Oh, it's going to 80 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: be early. She's got this. You know all the exit 81 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: poline blah blah blah. And I was there when he 82 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: called Paul Ryan to tell him that that same information 83 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: and oh my god, I mean it's just insane. And 84 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 1: Kissinger right, he called Henry Kissinger too, and it was 85 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: sort of fun. He was showing off that, you know, 86 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: he had them on speed dial. But anyway, what in 87 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: a nutshell norm that's frightening in and of itself. But yeah, 88 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: we have we have so much ground to cover, but 89 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 1: in a nutshell real quickly. Just to remind our listeners 90 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 1: and help them get their heads around this, what happened? 91 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 1: Why did Trump win? Uh? Some of this goes back decades. 92 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 1: The new book I did with E. J. Dean and 93 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: Tom Man, One Nation After Trump. We spend the first 94 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 1: third of the book looking at the roots of Trump 95 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: is um and it goes to the decline and community, 96 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 1: the kind of atomization and society that Robert Putnam wrote 97 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 1: about in Bowling Alone decades ago, the sorting that's taken 98 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: place in the society that Bill Bishop wrote about in 99 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 1: the book The Big Sort. And then it moves to 100 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: the tribalism in our politics that Nude Gingrich really generated. 101 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: Starting in the late nineties seventies when he came to 102 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: Washington into Congress, and it goes right up through the 103 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,679 Speaker 1: young Guns as they called themselves, Eric Canner, Paul Ryan, 104 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy, and Mitch McConnell in two thousand and nine, 105 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 1: using that populist anger flowing from the Troubled Assets Relief 106 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: Program or the bailout TARP as we know it, that 107 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: brought this enormous level of anger on the left with 108 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: the occupy movement and on the right with the Tea 109 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: Party movement. And by the time we get to the 110 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: Republican nominating process, the likelihood that some establishment figure was 111 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: going to win a nomination had declined precipitously. They were 112 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: going to go for an outsider, and especially one who 113 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: played on the unease caused by the stagnant economy and 114 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: the atomization that included this focus on race and on immigration, 115 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: and somebody who would say, I'm not going to be 116 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: like those wosses in my party who cave to Obama 117 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: and the Democrats. I won't take crap from anybody, and 118 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: you play that turbo charging all of those factors that 119 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: you haven't mentioned is the siloed media environment where some 120 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: people get a different set of facts from people following 121 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: the mainstream. Well, I think it further exacerbates the tribalization 122 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: or tribalism that nor mentioned. Absolutely does, and if you 123 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: if you look back, of course, the fairness doctrine was 124 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: repealed in seven. Rush Limbaugh then went national with a 125 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: radio show and it was rocketed to stardom with a 126 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: populist reaction against a big pay raise for Congress and 127 00:07:54,200 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: public officials. In nine then we have uh Matt Drudge 128 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: discovering that the web was a force that could be 129 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: used to promote his own ideology. He gets an intern 130 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: named Andrew Breitbart who takes it to the next level 131 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: and then moves to Bannon, and along the way we 132 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: get Fox News and the rest of talk radio and 133 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: a tribal media that thrives on division, on apocalyptic views. 134 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: And along with that, let's just throw in that deeper 135 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: anger at people in Washington, the sense that when Donald 136 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: Trump says, what the hell have you got to lose? 137 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: That resonated with a lot of people who didn't realize 138 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: what we have got to lose and what we are losing, 139 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: and the effects of all of these factors that you've 140 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:46,079 Speaker 1: described were pretty striking on election night. You mentioned Florida. 141 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: Florida is an interesting microcosm of what happened because a 142 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: lot of people assume Clinton would carry Florida because she 143 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,199 Speaker 1: did as well or better than Obama and a lot 144 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 1: of the swing counties. But then we started to see 145 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: what happened in Republican areas, and Trump just blew the 146 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 1: meter off. You know, if Reagan won sixty or seventy, 147 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: he was winning, and so here we go. But I 148 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 1: think that's the first sign that any of us kind 149 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: of recognized that something really different was happening that evening. Yeah, 150 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: absolutely true. And of course, let's face it, we thought 151 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: there was a blue wall in the final stages that 152 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: she'd eke out some narrow victory, uh by winning in Pennsylvania. 153 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: And remember the Philadelphia Boss Brady uh said, you know, 154 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 1: if we can get our turn out to four hundred thousand, 155 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: were golden there, and they did better than that and 156 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: still lost because it was in those areas in the 157 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,839 Speaker 1: you know, the middle of the state, uh, the Alabama 158 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: part of Pennsylvania. That once again just what you said, Brian, 159 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 1: numbers that would have been fifty five, sixty six for 160 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: a Republican went to and I think some of it 161 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: was colored by just antipathy toward Hillary Clinton, to which 162 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 1: I don't think you really mentioned as you were going 163 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: down your laundry list of reasons that Donald Trump wont 164 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: some deep seated sexism and discomfort with uh I think 165 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: the Clinton brand, if you will, but also with the 166 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: notion of a woman who many, unfortunately did not find 167 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 1: very appealing. And you know, there was a thirty year 168 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:28,959 Speaker 1: campaign to demonize and delegitimize the Clintons. You can add 169 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 1: to that the misogyny. You're absolutely right on that front. 170 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: And it made her a figure who was marginally more 171 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: likable than than Trump, but not likable at all to 172 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: sizeable swath of the electorate. And that did make a difference. 173 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: And let's face it, the campaign against her, the monomaniacal 174 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: focus on emails by the New York Times and other places, 175 00:10:55,840 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: including stories that were hyped and went way by on 176 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: the facts, and some that relied on sources that were 177 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 1: less than reliable, didn't help any well, less than reliable, 178 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: like i e. The Russians, right, I remember a friend 179 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: of mine. I remember a friend of mine, not to 180 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: mention sort of, you know, giving Donald Trump endless media 181 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: access without oftentimes without any critical analysis attached to it. 182 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 1: But I'll never forget a friend of mine sending me 183 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: a video about Whoma Aberdeen's connection to the Muslim Brotherhood 184 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 1: and her family, and it was actually a very quote 185 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 1: unquote well done, professional looking piece of video. And I 186 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: remember this was somebody who was very smart, worked with 187 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: me in local news in Washington. And I wrote her 188 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: back and I said, Dana, this is bullshit. And yet 189 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: I thought, gosh, if she's receptive to this kind of propaganda, 190 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 1: you know, propagated by the Russians, who else is watching 191 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: this stuff and buying at hook line and sinker. Anyway, 192 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: we could talk all day about this stuff, and we're 193 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: going to well at least for an hour. But Norm, 194 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:08,959 Speaker 1: I just want to backtrack for a quick second and 195 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: tell people a little bit about you. I suddenly have 196 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: turned into Oprah, But um, Norm, tell us about your background. 197 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: You graduated from high school at fourteen. We hadn't worked 198 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: together at CBS News, and I never realized you were 199 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 1: quite the child prodigy. Apparently you are, but then you 200 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,199 Speaker 1: went on and got a PhD. You were born in St. 201 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: Louis within an area close to Tom Friedman, Al Franken 202 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: and the Cohen brothers. What the hell were they feeding 203 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: new people? You know? It was St. Louis Park, the 204 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:44,679 Speaker 1: Jewish suburb of Minneapolis. UM, and I actually had a 205 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: a more checkered background than that. Um. I was born 206 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: in Minnesota and uh grew up largely there. But I 207 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: also my father had originally been Canadian, and I actually 208 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: went to high school in Winnipeg with Neil Young, among 209 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 1: other things. Uh, and then we moved back. If only 210 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: love could break your heart. Sorry, I sing once. I 211 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: try to sing once during every podcast, so thank you 212 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: for that opening. I think once would be good. Um. No, 213 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: once is good, It's really good. Uh. Any And actually, 214 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,479 Speaker 1: you know, Neil would perform at all of our assemblies 215 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:32,439 Speaker 1: and around and he had a little group called the 216 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: Straight Gators and they played a coffeehouse and we all 217 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: thought that he would be able to make it as 218 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: a sideman uh somewhere. And but the band we had 219 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,080 Speaker 1: playing with us UM because we needed a band for 220 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: all of the dances and proms, also decided to go 221 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: to l A when he did and change their name 222 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 1: to the Guests Who. So we had to rock and 223 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 1: roll Hall of Fame Max and high school time. Okay, sorry, 224 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: I in health it Okay, you're mentioning the artists from 225 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: my past. Norm How can I resist the role done 226 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: Randy where I was headed for. Don't forget American Woman. 227 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: Uh I love, I know, I like America also done 228 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: well by Lenny Kravitz. But anyway, we digress. Well, given 229 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 1: the company you kept and your experiences growing up, what 230 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: made you want to earn your living working with politicians 231 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: and hacks and really as an observer of our national 232 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: political scene. So I think some of it went back 233 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: to when I was younger. My grandfather, who had come 234 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: from Russia, became a labor leader in Minneapolis and was 235 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: one of the group of people, a kind of kitchen 236 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: cabinet that recruited Hubert Humphrey to run for mayor of 237 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: Minneapolis and then to get involved with politics. And I 238 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: had an uncle who was in the state legislature and 239 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: ran for attorney general in Minnesota, and just uh, I 240 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: was really interested and intrigued by how politics works and 241 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: how the institutions work, and then working on the hill 242 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: was just really interesting and exciting. And you know, I 243 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: must say at a time when there were a lot 244 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: of people you could look up to as heroes, people 245 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: who were in it for the right reasons and courageous 246 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: and doing the right things. And then I found, uh, 247 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: you know, as I started to teach and I began 248 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: to write for journals and things. It was frustrating because 249 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: you write a piece and send it to a political 250 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: science journal, and maybe a year later you would get 251 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: word back on whether they were going to accept it, 252 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: and then it would get published a year after that 253 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: and be read by a couple of thousand people. And uh, 254 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: then I just stumbled into writing a book review for 255 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: The Washington Post that came out two days later and 256 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: was read by many, many thousands, and I even got 257 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: a little money for it. And all of that. The 258 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: intersection of politics and the public how the Institution's work 259 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: really kind of intrigued me. So, norm, I think a 260 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: lot of people are surprised given your political bent, given 261 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: the tweets you've written not just against Trump but against Republicans, 262 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: that you've been based at the American Enterprise Institute for 263 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: all these years, which is a right wing think tank, 264 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: former home of the Chineese etcetera. You know how did 265 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: you end up there? I mean, are you kind of 266 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: the skunk at the garden party? Uh? So in the 267 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: nine UM, my dear friend Tom Mann, who had gone 268 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: to Michigan with me and came to Washington, and I 269 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: decided that we needed to try and find a place 270 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: with more resources than a university would provide. And we 271 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: went to a EI, which was then you discovered all 272 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: the Republican money. Uh. You know, back then it was 273 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: more sort of little center right, but more center than 274 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 1: anything else. And we pitched the idea of doing what 275 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: we call the Congress Project, kind of acting Congress as 276 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 1: an institution, all the changes, how it affected policy, and 277 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 1: they bought it and we did it part time, and 278 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 1: then in four uh, I quit teaching and went to 279 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 1: a e I full time and I've been there ever since. Uh, 280 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:21,120 Speaker 1: and I didn't change much. I was basically a moderate person. Um. 281 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:27,919 Speaker 1: And uh the institution, as the politics of the country evolved, 282 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: became more sharply conservative on the whole. But the most 283 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 1: important element for why I stayed there, and uh, it's 284 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: interesting that they allowed me to stay there was that 285 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 1: I had and continue to have complete freedom to do 286 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,159 Speaker 1: anything I want and to say what I want, and 287 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: nobody's ever said to me you can't do that, you 288 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 1: can't say that, And if they did, I'm fortunate, especially 289 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: at this stage of my life, where um, I could 290 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: leave without a second thought. We're gonna take a quick 291 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: break now and we'll be back soon with more from 292 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: Norm Ornstein. So, Norm, at the American Enterprise Institute where 293 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: you work, which is a conservative think tank, Mitch McConnell 294 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: came in one day as a speaker and you had 295 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 1: a pretty sharp exchange with him, and I just want 296 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: to play a little bit of that. I've enjoyed dueling you, 297 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 1: Norm over the years. You've been consistently wrong on almost everything, 298 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: and h I've always wondered, you know who each lunch 299 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: with you over here at an organization. I got more 300 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: friends than you think you're And actually, some of the 301 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:57,120 Speaker 1: worst things have been said about me over the years 302 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,040 Speaker 1: have been staid of a normal Arnstein and you and 303 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: you've been entirely wrong on virtually every occasion. I'm glad 304 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: to see you. What's on your mind? Ouch? Awkward? That 305 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: was where that must have felt pretty uncomfortable, Norm, uh So, 306 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 1: I had to think at that time, how am I 307 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,199 Speaker 1: going to respond to this, and my first inclination was 308 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: to say, not only will people have lunch with me, Senator, 309 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,239 Speaker 1: they'll even have a drink with me. Um. But I 310 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: didn't touche. So you got into a big fight with 311 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:32,439 Speaker 1: Mitch McConnell over a campaign finance reform, among other issues. 312 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: But you helped write the McCain fine Gold bill, and 313 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: he was the principal opponent of that. Can you describe 314 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 1: a little bit about about that fight and why since 315 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: that legislation was passed and signed, the campaign finance system 316 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,360 Speaker 1: is still a mess and big money is still so 317 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 1: powerful in our system. Well, of course, the answer to 318 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:58,400 Speaker 1: the latter question, Brian starts with two words, citizens united. 319 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: It goes to another two words, a decision that followed 320 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: speech now by the Appeals Court that led to super PACs. 321 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: I could see in the mid nineteen nineties that we 322 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: had a real problem emerging in the campaign finance system. 323 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 1: I convened a little group of people who knew a 324 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: lot about it. We sat down and hammered out some 325 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 1: pragmatic solutions. I went to John McCain and Russ fine 326 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,360 Speaker 1: Gold and somehow convinced them to take a different approach. 327 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: Um and uh then with some adjustments, we managed to 328 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:36,120 Speaker 1: get a bill through and I was one of many players, 329 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,959 Speaker 1: but I was proud of helping to shape it. And 330 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: then I saw Mitch McConnell at the Supreme Court when 331 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: the oral arguments were there with McConnell versus F. E. C. 332 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 1: Which was the case challenging this law, and the Supreme 333 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: Court rebuffed him. He was not at all a happy camper. 334 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,199 Speaker 1: And then Sandra Day O'Connor left the court because her 335 00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 1: husband had Alzheimer's and that not the Constitution, but O'Connor 336 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 1: leaving and sam Alito coming in set the seeds for 337 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: a Supreme Court to blow up all of the campaign 338 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 1: finance regulations that were actually working pretty well, and now 339 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 1: we have the hell of dark money and billionaire dominance 340 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:22,159 Speaker 1: of our process. You've written a book called One Nation 341 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: After Trump norm and since we are at the one 342 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: year mark of the election, how would you assess this 343 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: last year in terms of Donald Trump's accomplishments. Let me 344 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 1: ask you kind of turned this question on its head. 345 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,120 Speaker 1: Do you give him credit for anything? I give him 346 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 1: credit for poisoning the discourse in America, creating a kleptocracy, 347 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 1: defining deviancy down to use Pat Moynihan's term uh and 348 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: UH not doing much of anything to either drain the 349 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: swamp or help out those working p bowl. He said 350 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: he would much less as he addressed African Americans, what 351 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: the hell have you got to lose? Uh? Showing them 352 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:12,120 Speaker 1: very bad things. I have a hard time, Mrs Lincoln. 353 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: I have a hard time, Katie, finding anything positive there. 354 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 1: During the course of a year, Um and Tom Man 355 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 1: and I wrote a book in two thousand and six 356 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 1: called The Broken Branch, How Congress is Failing America and 357 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: How to get it back on track, and we lamented 358 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: what had happened to the institution, but we blame both 359 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 1: parties for it. Two thousand and twelve, we wrote a 360 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,360 Speaker 1: book called It's Even Worse than It Looks, and that 361 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: was heralded by a Washington Post outlook piece from the 362 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: book that our editor called UH, titled UH, Let's just 363 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: say it the Republicans or the Problem, And it was 364 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: a Republican party that had gone off the rails and 365 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 1: become an insurgent outlier, and we saw the seeds of 366 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 1: Trump is Um emerging. At that point. We revised that 367 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: and didn't one called it's even worse than it was. 368 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 1: And now we have this and what Trump has done 369 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 1: is in some ways the logical extension of a party 370 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 1: that had turned from a conservative problem solving one to 371 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: a radical one, and a party that opened up the 372 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: doors with its uh desire to blow up government and 373 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:25,479 Speaker 1: to give enormous tax breaks to the wealthiest um for 374 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 1: a guy like Donald Trump. And now they're putting no 375 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: checks and balances on him, and that is maybe, in 376 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 1: some ways the most depressing part of this story. The 377 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 1: political system was set up by our framers to build 378 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:44,640 Speaker 1: some boundaries around the possibility that and a moral uh 379 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: kleptocratic sociopath, if somehow that person got elected, we would 380 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,679 Speaker 1: be able to put boundaries around And it started with 381 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: an independent Congress. And now you look at what the 382 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,400 Speaker 1: Speaker Paul Ryan says, what the Senate majority, the leader 383 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: Mitch McConnell says, and what they say is, well, never 384 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: mind that we're going to get our tax bill through. 385 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:12,439 Speaker 1: All of that has to leave you alarmed, um. But 386 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,159 Speaker 1: also what we are seeing is so many people are 387 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: alarmed that maybe we're going to have a jolt that 388 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: gets the public more engaged and gets the possibility of 389 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: bringing those boundaries back. Before we talk about that, I 390 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 1: want to ask you about your tweets. I mean, you've 391 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: called him a seventy one year old, lifelong narcissist, sociopath. 392 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 1: You've called him a congenital liar blowing up American ideas. 393 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: You've called him an ignoramus. Is it his personal behavior 394 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: that you find so offensive or are you equally um 395 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 1: incensed by the policy proposals he's put forth and the 396 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: way he's actually conducted the real business of governing versus 397 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: the personality of his presidency. Uh So it's all of 398 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,959 Speaker 1: the above, but more. And Uh, you know, the Twitter 399 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:04,120 Speaker 1: has become a catharsis for me as I watch things deteriorate. 400 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 1: The biggest the biggest problem that I see is the 401 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 1: direct challenge to the fundamentals of our small, our republican 402 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: or representative form of democracy. And if you look at 403 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: all of the indicators that historians have written about Timothy 404 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: Snyder in his book on Tyranny, even the exhibit at 405 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,680 Speaker 1: the Holocaust Museum about the signs that you're moving towards 406 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:35,199 Speaker 1: uh fascism. Uh. It starts with de legitimizing the press. 407 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 1: When you have a president who says that the press 408 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,880 Speaker 1: is the enemy of the people, a phrase begun by 409 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: Stalin that was banned by Kruschoff when he took over 410 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: because it was too dangerous. That is the most disturbing element. 411 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: When you have next a president who moves to delegitimize 412 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: the judiciary, as Trump has done by attacking judges and 413 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 1: they're into a gritty and then goes after any kind 414 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: of legitimate judicial or process of prosecution moving forward. That's 415 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: disturbing when you have a president who pays no attention 416 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 1: to truth, and when you have a president who, instead 417 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,439 Speaker 1: of moving to unite the country moves to divide it, 418 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: as we saw even now with the reaction to the 419 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 1: horrible tragedy in New York City, but we have seen 420 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:35,400 Speaker 1: with the reaction to Charlottesville in other places. His personal behavior, 421 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: the crudeness of his past, all of those things are horrible. 422 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 1: The fact that nobody else in the political arena in 423 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: his party except for a handful of dissidents, is challenging 424 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,439 Speaker 1: those things is disturbing, But it's the direct challenge to 425 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: our governance. To that point, norm you're an expert on Congress, 426 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: is it as simple as Republican leaders realize that they 427 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: have a pro Trump base and don't want to alienate it, 428 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,439 Speaker 1: or is there something deeper than that. I think it's that, 429 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 1: and more certainly what we know is at Trump who 430 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: has focused on shoring up that base and a base 431 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,400 Speaker 1: which may be shrinking a little. But let's give him 432 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 1: thirty to thirty percent of the electorate. That's sixtent of 433 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: the Republican primary voters for the House and Senate. And 434 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: along with that, I think is the fear that they 435 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,120 Speaker 1: have that challenging Trump frontally means you're going to take 436 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 1: on the Mercer family and their billions. You're gonna take 437 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 1: on the talk machine that will be led by Alex 438 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: Jones and Sean Hannity uh and Rush Limbaugh and Laura 439 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,120 Speaker 1: Ingram and Mark Levin and Bright bart Uh and they'll 440 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: make your lives miserable. Along with a primary challenge, and 441 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 1: in some cases, as we've seen with Bob Corker, maybe 442 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 1: even give you death threats. And then you've got the 443 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: other reality, which is they didn't want Trump. Very few 444 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: endorsed him privately, most were appalled by him, but when 445 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: he got elected, it was here we got a guy 446 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: who has no policy interest, no policy knowledge, but he 447 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,160 Speaker 1: wants victories and he'll sign anything we put in front 448 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: of him. So we want to protect that possibility because 449 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 1: we can get tax cuts. And all of those are reasons. 450 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: Some of them are reasons you can understand in terms 451 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: of self preservation. Others do such violence to the fundamental 452 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 1: norms of civic behavior and protection of all that we 453 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: should hold dear about our democracy that it's uh troubling 454 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 1: to say the least. So when all these people drop 455 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: out and say they're not going to run for re election, 456 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: like Bob Corker and Jeff Flake, will they be replaced 457 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: by uber right wing senators. That's the real danger here now. 458 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: It may not happen um in Arizona right now. Of course, 459 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: the challenger who was going to take on Jeff Lake, 460 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: Kelly Ward uh is a conspiracy theorist and somebody who 461 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,959 Speaker 1: is way off the charts on the radical right end 462 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: of the spectrum. Maybe there'll be another Republican challenging her, 463 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 1: and maybe the Democrat Kristen Cinema can actually win that race, 464 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,239 Speaker 1: But it's far more likely that you end up with 465 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 1: somebody Jeff Lake is a very conservative guy. But he's 466 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: also an right He's well, he's a real Barry Goldwater conservative, 467 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: isn't he? He is? And Barry Goldwater, by the way, 468 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: would also be appalled by what he's seeing now in 469 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: his own party. But Jeff, whom I've known since he 470 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: was in the House, also wants to find solutions to 471 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: problems and build across party lines. And the same is 472 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 1: true of Corker, who is more likely to be replaced 473 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: by somebody much much further to his right. So you know, 474 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 1: the prognosis at this point is a troubling one because 475 00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: the people who are inherently problems solving oriented are the 476 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: ones who were most discouraged by this dynamic and willing 477 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 1: to leave, and the ones who are more radical uh 478 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 1: and believe in a revolution are waiting in the wings. 479 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: We should just add for the benefit of our audience. 480 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 1: You mentioned the Mercers earlier, and I bet a lot 481 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: of people don't know who they are. They're probably the 482 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: most important conservative billionaire family now after the Cokes. They're 483 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: big Bright Bart funders, huge Steve Bannon supporters, etcetera. But 484 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: I want to ask you something different, Norm, which is 485 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: you've been in Washington for all these decades. How have 486 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 1: you seen Washington change, um, both as a as a culture, 487 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: institutionally politically since you first got there. UM. When I 488 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: first got to Washington, UM, I was very good friends 489 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: with a lot of people in public life UH and 490 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: an elected office from both parties, and we would all 491 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: socialize together a fair amount. UM. There was a feeling 492 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 1: of UH institutional loyalty and a pride in what you 493 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: were able to do to help make the country better. 494 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 1: We could get through very difficult times. And it's not 495 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: to say that it was all rosie. Back then, we 496 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: had the Vietnam War. When I arrived, we had been 497 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: the impeachment process of Richard Nixon. We had some dark 498 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 1: elements of racism and UH, issues of crime and other things. 499 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: A lot of unsettling moments, but people on both sides 500 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 1: who are dedicated to trying to steer their way through 501 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: this and work together to find a better time. Democrats 502 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: and Republicans saw each other as adversaries, not the enemy, 503 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: and UH often an adversary one day would be an 504 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: ally the next dinner. Parties were very much mixed. Now 505 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: A couple of things changed. One was you didn't have 506 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 1: very many members of Congress back then who would serve 507 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: and then leave office and stay in Washington. Mostly they 508 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: went back home. That began to change and they stayed 509 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: and what they did was they went into law firms 510 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 1: or became lobbyists. And the same was true of the staff. 511 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: Back then. You had staff who would make careers out 512 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 1: of it, were very proud that they could be a 513 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: part of it. That began to change and instead people 514 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 1: would see, UH, staff opportunities as jumping off point to 515 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: make a lot of money outside. Uh. There is a 516 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: swamp in Washington. Trump is adding to it, not draining it. 517 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: But that's been a change from what we've seen in 518 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 1: the past. And the tribal ism that began to develop 519 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,959 Speaker 1: in the late nineteen seventies driven by Gingrich, has become 520 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: much worse. And while you still have some instances of 521 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: senators who will socialize across party lines, UH, you don't 522 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: have it much compared to what used to be there. 523 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 1: And we still have a situation that also really began 524 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: with Gingrich in the seventies where members don't bring their 525 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: families to Washington and they spend as little time there 526 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: as possible. UH. And you now see dinner parties where 527 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: people are very careful not to mix across these lines 528 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: because you'll end up with shouting matches or cutlery being 529 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 1: thrown or dishes broke. Before it's so depressings, I'm gonna say, 530 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: is there any hope for the future? Can we um 531 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: do anything to make this better? So UM, let me 532 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: come back to the book. And I have to mention 533 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: the subtitle because I'm very proud of that. Uh. It 534 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: is a guide for the perplexed, the disillusioned, the desperate, 535 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 1: and the not yet deported um and UH, which covers 536 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: a lot of people. But it's a hopeful book. UH. 537 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: And the path forward I think comes in a couple 538 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 1: of directions. And I'm hopeful in part because I think 539 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: Trump could be our Dunkirk, the jolt that the civil 540 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 1: society needs to realize that a lot of what we 541 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: have held near and dear is imperiled. And it's a 542 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: jolt in two ways. The first is a lot of 543 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 1: these UH larger trends in the society, the loss of community, 544 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 1: the atomization, the economic inequality, the stagnation of wages, the 545 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: sharp divisions on race and party lines. But also UH 546 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 1: between the thriving metropolitan areas and highly educated. Now we 547 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 1: have to think about how we can bridge some of 548 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 1: those divides and focus not on white working class people, 549 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: but on working class people and on policies that can work. 550 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,319 Speaker 1: That's one part of it. A second is we've been 551 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:43,760 Speaker 1: jolted by the challenge to the fundamentals of our system 552 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 1: by Trump, and now we're seeing all kinds of elements 553 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: of the civil society step forward. It's the lawyers stepping 554 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 1: up with the Travel Band to deal with some of 555 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 1: these horrible cases of Ice stepping in and taking undocumented people, 556 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: most recently, of course, a ten year old girl with 557 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:07,240 Speaker 1: cerebral palsy. It is the religious organizations, including the Catholic bishops, 558 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:11,959 Speaker 1: now focusing on the problems of destroying the safety net. 559 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:17,879 Speaker 1: It is conservative policy intellectuals and a handful of courageous 560 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: lawmakers and people like Bill Crystal and Jennifer Rubin and 561 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: Max boot Uh and Evan McMullen and others standing up 562 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,840 Speaker 1: to try and transform their own party back into a 563 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 1: problem solving, albeit very conservative party. And then it's groups 564 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: like Indivisible and the grassroots movement to try and get 565 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: people more engaged. It's young people deciding now that they're 566 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,359 Speaker 1: going to be looking at running for office, something that 567 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: we didn't see a decade or more ago. So there 568 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: are signs out there. I have to ask you about 569 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 1: Bob Muller. This is sort of the beginning of the 570 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 1: Russian investigation, or or the outcome of the Expression investigation, 571 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 1: as we've seen this week with with Paul Manafort and 572 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 1: to other Trump associates. Um, how do you see this 573 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:11,400 Speaker 1: all shaking out? Norm? Uh? So, here's the worst case scenario, uh, 574 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,400 Speaker 1: that as uh it begins to close in on Trump, 575 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 1: that we see another Saturday Night massacre, uh as we 576 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 1: had in the early seventies with Nixon, and that Trump 577 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,479 Speaker 1: goes down the line and the Justice Department to find 578 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 1: somebody who will fire Mueller and all the people around 579 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: him and then pardons everybody, including himself. But if that 580 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 1: doesn't happen, then I think we're heading inexorably towards a 581 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: large group of people around the president not only being 582 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: charged with money laundering. And the president in his own 583 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: family may very well find that their business dealings drag 584 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,359 Speaker 1: him into it in a different way. But to me, 585 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 1: that is very very likely that Mueller is going to 586 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 1: look at him, not necessarily for direct collusion with Russia, 587 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 1: but for pretty obvious obstruction of justice. So when wait, wait, 588 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: what does that mean? What does that mean? Does that 589 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,879 Speaker 1: do we think we're on the road to impeachment? Uh, well, 590 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:14,800 Speaker 1: we're gonna hit I believe, uh sometime within the next 591 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:20,800 Speaker 1: six months to a year across roads for Republicans in Congress. UM. 592 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 1: And I don't know where they come out on this, 593 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: I really don't. Um. We don't seem to have much 594 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 1: leadership that is even willing to put some boundaries around Trump. Uh. 595 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 1: Right now, for example, one of the obvious things that 596 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,239 Speaker 1: Congress should be doing is making it overtly clear to 597 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 1: the president that if he fires Muller, all hell will 598 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,880 Speaker 1: break loose and that at minimum Congress will empower Muller 599 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 1: to continue his investigation. And that's not happening. Uh. It 600 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: wouldn't surprise me that ultimately we end up with an 601 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,279 Speaker 1: indictment of the president. And for those who say that 602 00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 1: that's not allowable, we have a very long memo written 603 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: by Ken Starr back in the nineteen nineties as he 604 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 1: was investigating Bill Clinton about why a sitting president could 605 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,799 Speaker 1: be in fact indicted. Before we before we go and 606 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,839 Speaker 1: I think Brian and I could talk about this all day. 607 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,799 Speaker 1: I really wanted to ask you about the culpability of 608 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: the Democratic Party, since you are so um willing to 609 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 1: to really take aim at Republicans, But I don't think 610 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 1: we have time to do that today. Norm So we're 611 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:29,239 Speaker 1: gonna have to have you back, or we're gonna have 612 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 1: Let me say, Democrats are not angels here. It's not 613 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,720 Speaker 1: like one party is great and the other is awful. 614 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 1: But what is the cases that one party is much 615 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,359 Speaker 1: much worse? Right now, let me ask you a little 616 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 1: bit about something personal you shared with people in a 617 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:49,360 Speaker 1: New York Times article. Um, your son Matthew. You spoke 618 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 1: very poignantly and movingly about his ten year battle with 619 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:58,919 Speaker 1: mental illness. He died in early two thousand fifteen. And that's, 620 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,799 Speaker 1: I know, a cause that is so important to you 621 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:06,359 Speaker 1: and that you've worked tirelessly for. Um. Can you tell 622 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,359 Speaker 1: us a little bit about about Matthew and and sort 623 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:14,399 Speaker 1: of what happened? Sure? UM, Let me start by saying 624 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:16,759 Speaker 1: how proud I am of you, Katie, for taking your 625 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,479 Speaker 1: own personal tragedy and the role that you can play 626 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,440 Speaker 1: in society and trying to pay it forward so that 627 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:25,920 Speaker 1: others will not have to go through the horrors. And 628 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,440 Speaker 1: that's how I've felt about this. My son was a brilliant, 629 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,479 Speaker 1: brilliant kid. He was a national champion high school debater, 630 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:36,319 Speaker 1: or went to Princeton, went out to Hollywood and was 631 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 1: having some success. Actually had his own little show on 632 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 1: a kind of a funny take on debate. And then 633 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 1: he had a psychotic break at the age of twenty 634 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: four and went through a tenure struggle. A part of 635 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:51,719 Speaker 1: his illness is what's called a nosagnosia um, where your 636 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,200 Speaker 1: brain diseases such that you don't recognize that you're ill. 637 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,960 Speaker 1: He would not accept any kind of treatment or any diagnosis. 638 00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,959 Speaker 1: And we live in a society id where if that's 639 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,400 Speaker 1: the case in your over eighteen family members, loved ones, 640 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,799 Speaker 1: medical professionals are powerless to do much of anything about it, 641 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:10,719 Speaker 1: and the family may not even be able to know 642 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:15,840 Speaker 1: what's going on. And he struggled, I'm sure, with horrible pain, 643 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:20,280 Speaker 1: I know, and we struggled as a family with pain. 644 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 1: He died an accidental death. It was a carbon monoxide 645 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,839 Speaker 1: poisoning that we are pretty sure was not deliberate. Um 646 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,840 Speaker 1: many others, it is deliberate. Uh. But you know, the 647 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 1: prognosis for people with serious mental illness is not a 648 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:37,759 Speaker 1: very good one, and the way the society deals with 649 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 1: it is itself insane. And we've, uh, my family has 650 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,239 Speaker 1: spent a great deal of time and whatever money we can, 651 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,680 Speaker 1: and we've set up a foundation in his name, the 652 00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,399 Speaker 1: Matthew Warnstein Foundation, to try and do something about this, 653 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 1: and especially to try and bring about best practices. So 654 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:04,799 Speaker 1: many are homeless or are in horrible states because there's 655 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,600 Speaker 1: no way to bring them to treatment. Um. But also 656 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,359 Speaker 1: the criminal justice system is a disaster when it comes 657 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,160 Speaker 1: to dealing with people with mental illness. And we got 658 00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:19,200 Speaker 1: a minor but important piece of legislation through Congress, but 659 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:24,279 Speaker 1: it's still very, very difficult to change the law and 660 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,279 Speaker 1: to change the way that people deal with this. And 661 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,799 Speaker 1: there isn't a family, I believe, in the country that 662 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 1: is not touched in some way by the tragedy of 663 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,919 Speaker 1: mental illness. Uh So, Uh, this is something that has 664 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 1: become a very near and dear to me. And I 665 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:43,040 Speaker 1: will have to say that on this subject, Paul Ryan 666 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:47,600 Speaker 1: and Mitch McConnell, who do not view me very highly, um, 667 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,680 Speaker 1: did step up to the plate to get that bill passed. 668 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 1: It sounds like such an overwhelming problem. Are you optimistic 669 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 1: norm that that things can be put in place that 670 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:03,600 Speaker 1: can actually, if not fixed, the problem, make it less 671 00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:06,680 Speaker 1: dire and severe. And where by the way, so sorry 672 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,600 Speaker 1: for your loss. I can only imagine how how horrible 673 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,480 Speaker 1: that was, because not only did you have a son 674 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:15,560 Speaker 1: who was sick, you couldn't do anything about it. You 675 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:19,360 Speaker 1: must have felt so powerless. And you know, here, uh, 676 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 1: we have a family, my wife, a lawyer with uh 677 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:28,799 Speaker 1: you know, a brilliant lawyer with all kinds of uh interest, knowledge, resources, 678 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:34,279 Speaker 1: another son who is also a brilliant kid. We had 679 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:38,399 Speaker 1: the resources and the connections that most people don't have 680 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,920 Speaker 1: and couldn't do anything. And that's the case with so 681 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:46,160 Speaker 1: many you know. Now, whenever I see a story about 682 00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,200 Speaker 1: somebody losing a child, uh, you feel it in a 683 00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:53,839 Speaker 1: different way when you've had that loss yourself. There's nothing like, uh, 684 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,960 Speaker 1: the unnatural event of losing a child. But you also 685 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:01,680 Speaker 1: see the frustration and an understand I understand in a 686 00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,839 Speaker 1: way I didn't before. Uh that through no fault of 687 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,359 Speaker 1: his own. And a brain disease is a disease. It's 688 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 1: the same as any other kind of disease, but the 689 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:14,080 Speaker 1: society doesn't view it that way. How difficult it was 690 00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,719 Speaker 1: for him, and you become a pariah in the society. 691 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,200 Speaker 1: And there are you know, worse uh tragedies for many 692 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:23,440 Speaker 1: who have these kinds of illnesses. They get put in 693 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:27,799 Speaker 1: prison and uh, they get locked up in solitary confinement. 694 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,960 Speaker 1: Very few people in prisons have any understanding of how 695 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,759 Speaker 1: to treat those with mental illnesses. I will say one 696 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,400 Speaker 1: of the things that I find most troubling about the 697 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:41,759 Speaker 1: Trump administration is Attorney General Sessions wanting to bring back 698 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:45,319 Speaker 1: private prisons, which are a cancer on everything that we 699 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,440 Speaker 1: should believe in. They want more prisoners, They make money 700 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:50,920 Speaker 1: when there are more people. They don't care how they 701 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:55,719 Speaker 1: care for people. They love recipivism. Uh, and it's much 702 00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,759 Speaker 1: much worse. We see these tortures Shareff Clark and mill 703 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:04,359 Speaker 1: wall Key, one of Trump's favorite people, uh in his jail. Uh. 704 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,759 Speaker 1: They tortured somebody with a serious mental illness, wouldn't give 705 00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:10,280 Speaker 1: him food or water, and watched him die in a cell. 706 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:13,960 Speaker 1: And that's not an uncommon experience. But I do think 707 00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,600 Speaker 1: that we have lots of people out there dedicated to 708 00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 1: trying to make this better. And if we can mobilize 709 00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,200 Speaker 1: those people whose families have been touched by this, many 710 00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:26,200 Speaker 1: of whom I don't want to talk about it because 711 00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:30,120 Speaker 1: there's such a stigma. Uh, then I believe we can 712 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,319 Speaker 1: turn a corner on this. I think you're right. I 713 00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,000 Speaker 1: think if more people speak out. And by the way, 714 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,759 Speaker 1: I just want to add, as brain science becomes more 715 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:43,640 Speaker 1: advanced and our understanding of mental illness increases, which is 716 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:48,200 Speaker 1: happening right now with technology and and and an ability 717 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,759 Speaker 1: to really, you know, take a deep dive literally into 718 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:57,600 Speaker 1: into our brain, perhaps that yeah, perhaps, yeah, well no, 719 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:01,560 Speaker 1: actually no, with with scans and um, you know, all 720 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:04,480 Speaker 1: sorts of the science that allows us to really look 721 00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:08,080 Speaker 1: deeply into brain chemistry. You know, That's what I meant. 722 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,239 Speaker 1: I don't mean, yeah, we're not putting it on our 723 00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:12,560 Speaker 1: wet suits and going into the brain. You guys know 724 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:16,560 Speaker 1: what I meant figuratively. Okay, thank you, Brian. But anyway, UM, 725 00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:20,520 Speaker 1: I'm hoping that that will help reduce the stigma associated 726 00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:24,480 Speaker 1: with with mental illness as we show their real physiological 727 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:29,439 Speaker 1: biological factors that are responsible for when someone is sick 728 00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:33,040 Speaker 1: with mental illness. Just as if they're sick with cancer. Norm. 729 00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:37,239 Speaker 1: I always love talking to you and hearing your perspective 730 00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:41,160 Speaker 1: on just about everything, and we're so grateful for you 731 00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:45,640 Speaker 1: joining our podcast today. Brian, I think you should come 732 00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,040 Speaker 1: to the lunch that Norman I have in New York 733 00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:53,520 Speaker 1: if you're in town. I didn't. Of course, you're invited. Um, 734 00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:55,839 Speaker 1: if you let me get a word in edgeways, if 735 00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:59,080 Speaker 1: you don't pull out like what happened in nine and 736 00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:04,000 Speaker 1: uh was consin in the eighth congressional district. And if 737 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,680 Speaker 1: you don't do that, come up with a hard I 738 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:11,759 Speaker 1: think Reagan carried that distress anyway. Norm, so wonderful to 739 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:14,279 Speaker 1: have you, and we should mention the name of your 740 00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:18,160 Speaker 1: book again, Brian. The book is called One Nation After Trump. 741 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:22,319 Speaker 1: And for those of you who are depressed, despondent, disillusioned, 742 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:23,880 Speaker 1: I think you're gonna like the book. For those of 743 00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:27,359 Speaker 1: you are big Trump supporters, Uh, maybe maybe keep reading 744 00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,640 Speaker 1: the Danielle Steele, Well, actually, isn't that part of the problem. 745 00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,680 Speaker 1: People should read Norm's book at their trumps. Everybody should 746 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,759 Speaker 1: read Well. Not only that, but I think part of 747 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:41,839 Speaker 1: this siloing of American discourse is also at the foundation 748 00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:46,080 Speaker 1: of why we are so divided, and uh gosh, I 749 00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,440 Speaker 1: don't know how you solve that except for people who 750 00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,520 Speaker 1: are really willing to to listen to the other side 751 00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:56,799 Speaker 1: and to acknowledge some of their issues and concerns. Politicians 752 00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,480 Speaker 1: are just a reflection of us on some level. So 753 00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,240 Speaker 1: it's we've got a there's a problem with the voters 754 00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:04,960 Speaker 1: as well as the as well as the politics, as 755 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:09,200 Speaker 1: well as the media. Yeah, indeed, anyway that note, Norm, 756 00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:13,120 Speaker 1: thanks so much and any email you and please send 757 00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:18,759 Speaker 1: me an autograph copy of your book. Thank you so much. 758 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:23,400 Speaker 1: To our team behind the scenes, Giannah Palmer is our producer, 759 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:27,200 Speaker 1: Nora Richie is our production assistant. Jared O'Connell engineers and 760 00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:31,239 Speaker 1: mixes the show. Alison Bresnik is our social media mastermind, 761 00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:35,240 Speaker 1: and Emily Beana holds things down over at Katie Currik Media. 762 00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,480 Speaker 1: Mark Phillips wrote our theme music. And remember, if you 763 00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:40,759 Speaker 1: want to keep up with us on social media, you 764 00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,560 Speaker 1: can find me under Katie Currik on Twitter and Instagram 765 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:48,120 Speaker 1: and Facebook. On Snapchat, I'm under Katie dot Kurric and 766 00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:52,200 Speaker 1: Goldsmith the is on Twitter That is Brian's handle. Yeah, 767 00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:55,560 Speaker 1: I'm like two followers short of two thousand followers. Really, 768 00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:58,759 Speaker 1: let's get you over the two thousand mark. Come on, 769 00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,120 Speaker 1: and how many followers do you, Katie? I have one 770 00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:05,160 Speaker 1: point seven million. Brian, uh, not dragon or anything, but 771 00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:07,480 Speaker 1: I think to make you feel better, I think a 772 00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:10,760 Speaker 1: lot of them are dead or our bots, so who knows. 773 00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:15,080 Speaker 1: But anyway, Russians, don't be a stranger. Drop us an 774 00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:18,239 Speaker 1: email at comments at current podcast dot com. We love 775 00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:21,640 Speaker 1: reading and we're flying to those. Some of you are 776 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,360 Speaker 1: so nice. Thank you. They really make our day. Or 777 00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,239 Speaker 1: feel free to leave us a voicemail at nine to 778 00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:31,600 Speaker 1: four four six three seven. We'll take guest ideas, feedback, 779 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,839 Speaker 1: anything you want to say, but please people keep it clean. 780 00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:41,360 Speaker 1: I'm like us anyway, Thanks for listening. Bye,