Speaker 1: When is the right time to tase a handcuffed man?
Speaker 1: About to find out? Today, I'd like to welcome you
Speaker 1: to another episode of The Civic Cipher, where our mission
Speaker 1: is to foster allyship empathy and understanding.
Speaker 2: I am your host, ramses job. He is Ramsey's jaw.
Speaker 2: I am cured. You are once again tuned into Civic Cipher.
Speaker 1: Indeed, as we broadcast from Hip Hop Weekly Studios, I
Speaker 1: would like to ask you to stick around because we
Speaker 1: are going to be discussing quite a few things today,
Speaker 1: including what.
Speaker 2: Police accountability looks like.
Speaker 1: Three years after a moment in time when we were
Speaker 1: really having the opportunity to see what police accountability looks like,
Speaker 1: what it looks like when police were accountable to the
Speaker 1: public and not the other way around. Since then, that
Speaker 1: reality has deteriorated, and so there's a few examples that
Speaker 1: have come across our desk in recent weeks, and we've
Speaker 1: compiled them into today's episode. For the first half and
Speaker 1: for the second half, of course, we are going to
Speaker 1: be discussing, indeed, when is the right time to tase
Speaker 1: a handcuffed man? And what does it mean when you're
Speaker 1: tasing a handcuffed man that is a question that has
Speaker 1: resulted from a recent video that has been going viral
Speaker 1: on our social media, and I employ you to check
Speaker 1: it out while you're listening to the show. Before we
Speaker 1: get to that point in the show, we can hit
Speaker 1: at Civic Cipher and see exactly what we're talking about.
Speaker 1: But we're going to actually play a little bit of
Speaker 1: the audio for you as well so that you can
Speaker 1: understand it. For some reason, you can't get to the
Speaker 1: social media. But again, we're talking about police accountability and
Speaker 1: what happens when there is a lack of police accountability.
Speaker 1: Exactly how far do police go, what do police feel
Speaker 1: they can get away with, and why do they keep
Speaker 1: doing this? Is it because they don't fear the consequences
Speaker 1: or are we just seeing what happens when people get caught.
Speaker 1: But first and foremost designed for some Ebony Excellence, we'd
Speaker 1: like to start to show off this wayque why don't
Speaker 1: you take.
Speaker 2: This one, noll I, you shall this week's Ebony Excellence
Speaker 2: sponsored by Actively Black, where they believe there is greatness
Speaker 2: in our DNA. This comes from NPR. Tracy Chapman was
Speaker 2: honored with Song of the Year for her nineteen eighty
Speaker 2: eight folk anthem fast Car at the Country Music Awards
Speaker 2: on Wednesday, coming the first black songwriter to ever win
Speaker 2: the award. Fast Car peaked at number six on Billboard's
Speaker 2: Hot one hundred charts following its released more than thirty
Speaker 2: years ago. The song was nominated for three Grammys when
Speaker 2: it first came out, and Chapman won Best Female Pop
Speaker 2: Vocal Performance, but it got a second win in recent
Speaker 2: months after singer Luke Colmbs came out with the cover
Speaker 2: of the song in April. His version peaked at number
Speaker 2: two on the Hot one hundred chart and one Single
Speaker 2: of the Year. At the CMA's in Nashville, she says, quote,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry I couldn't join you all tonight end quote quote.
Speaker 2: It's truly an honor for my song to be newly
Speaker 2: recognized after thirty five years of its debut. Thank you
Speaker 2: to the CMAS and a special thanks to Luke and
Speaker 2: all of the fans of fast Car. End quote. Combes
Speaker 2: called fast Car his favorite song and his acceptance speech
Speaker 2: for a Single of the Year, he said, quote, first
Speaker 2: and foremost, I went to thank Tracy Chapman for writing
Speaker 2: one of the best songs of all time. Never intended
Speaker 2: for that I just recorded it because I loved the
Speaker 2: song so much. It's meant so much for me throughout
Speaker 2: my entire life. It's the first favorite song I ever
Speaker 2: had from the time I was four years old. And
Speaker 2: that's from Luke Combs who won that award, right, And
Speaker 2: we want.
Speaker 1: To shout out NPR for the article, and of course
Speaker 1: shout out Tracy Chapman for again being the first the
Speaker 1: first black song writer ever to win the award of
Speaker 1: Song of the Year and.
Speaker 2: Both triumphant and sad at the same time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, progress, progress, So we'll take that all right.
Speaker 1: A lack of police accountability, man, this does not feel
Speaker 1: like a new topic for us.
Speaker 2: You actually a question at the top of the show
Speaker 2: that I almost answered in real time. I had to
Speaker 2: bite my tongue to be quiet. What's the the when
Speaker 2: is the right time to tase a handcuffed?
Speaker 1: Man?
Speaker 2: My answers are going to sound like a joke because
Speaker 2: it's ridiculous, but it's the only time I actually had
Speaker 2: a moment of critical thinking to try to go through
Speaker 2: when would be a good time to taste someone who's
Speaker 2: in handcuffs? And I came up with if that person
Speaker 2: has you in the figure four leg lock, and you
Speaker 2: just so happened to have access to a taser or
Speaker 2: stun gun or some type of way of protecting yourself
Speaker 2: to get out of that once famous finishing move and
Speaker 2: professional wrestling. Indeed, what's funny.
Speaker 1: We're obviously gonna develop, you know, that thought a little
Speaker 1: bit more for the second half of the show. But
Speaker 1: I think that after seeing that video, I'm kind of
Speaker 1: which video the video of the female officer in Alabama
Speaker 1: tazing the black.
Speaker 2: Listeners and cuff to the car. That was a little
Speaker 2: tongue in cheek, Which video? Which video? Because we see
Speaker 2: that many yeah, where that would actually be a real
Speaker 2: question had we not just you know.
Speaker 1: Sure, sure, And you know, here's the funny part about that.
Speaker 1: Before I get to the point I'm trying to make
Speaker 1: this whole show, if we're being honest, is pointed toward
Speaker 1: that specific police interaction, and these stories that we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about now are just kind of really what
Speaker 1: frames what police accountability looks like these days? Who exactly
Speaker 1: exactly my point? And so having that sort of climate,
Speaker 1: having a public that's either apathetic or is I want
Speaker 1: to say, like intellectually disinterested, disinterested disengaged. But I don't
Speaker 1: know if it's if it's apathy more than kind of
Speaker 1: a numbness, right. I think if there's like, for instance,
Speaker 1: you ever been to someone's house and they don't change
Speaker 1: the battery in their smoke detector beeping to you, that
Speaker 1: is incredibly annoying.
Speaker 2: That's been the case for them for however long. They
Speaker 2: don't even hear it anymore. It's not actual apathy, They've
Speaker 2: just tuned it out. This happens so often, like what
Speaker 2: am I supposed to be angry and outraged perpetually For
Speaker 2: some some apathy is the exact right way to describe
Speaker 2: how they feel about this. It doesn't affect them, so
Speaker 2: there's no reason for them to actually care. But I
Speaker 2: think for an unsettling amount of people, it's very very discouraging.
Speaker 2: I think the battery has been beeping for so long
Speaker 2: they don't hear it anymore.
Speaker 1: And I like how you use that analogy, because the
Speaker 1: fact is is that that battery has been beeping since
Speaker 1: everybody listening to our voices right now was born, and
Speaker 1: indeed before they were born, that battery has been beeping,
Speaker 1: and it feels like sometimes we're the only ones pointing
Speaker 1: this out to everyone else, like, hey, does anyone else
Speaker 1: hear this battery beeping?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: And so that's a problem. But the result of that,
Speaker 1: the ripple effect of that is that police brutality, police misconduct,
Speaker 1: you know, these sorts of things, they end up creating
Speaker 1: a climate where other police feel like they are invincible,
Speaker 1: there are no consequences for their actions. A certain group
Speaker 1: of people are disposable or you know whatever. And maybe
Speaker 1: they feel this way across the board, because you know,
Speaker 1: police violence does happen against white people as well, it's
Speaker 1: not as prevalent, but you start to realize just how
Speaker 1: removed from real consequences police can be. And one of
Speaker 1: the things that I find particularly problematic with those people
Speaker 1: that have intellectually speaking, distanced themselves from indeed what is happening,
Speaker 1: is that.
Speaker 2: A way that they.
Speaker 1: Place a wall in between where they are in terms
Speaker 1: of their argument and where we are, is to say
Speaker 1: that black people have selective outrage, that black people have
Speaker 1: a victim mentality, these sorts of things, right, And I
Speaker 1: want to focus on selective outrage for a second, because
Speaker 1: you know, when people start to look at things like
Speaker 1: why are you so mad about police brutality. This affects
Speaker 1: such a relatively speaking small amount of Black people. You
Speaker 1: guys have so many other problems. I think that it's
Speaker 1: those people that have ignored the fact that there are
Speaker 1: there is a critical process that we need to go
Speaker 1: through in order to bring about a more equitable society
Speaker 1: for all of us. And some changes start with police reform.
Speaker 1: Some changes start with dealing with voter disenfranchisement, disenfranchisement. Some
Speaker 1: changes start with reforming the car sol system. Some changes
Speaker 1: start with dealing with poverty and economic inequality in this country.
Speaker 1: And then other changes still start, you know, in the textbooks,
Speaker 1: in medical textbooks, in reparations. Let's be honest. You know,
Speaker 1: we will talk about that for our way Black History fact.
Speaker 1: And then you have the evergreen go back to your
Speaker 1: country man. Listen, that's always a solution.
Speaker 2: Talk some c you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about what a lack of police accountability
Speaker 1: looks like. Okay, So, Jalen Walker, we talked about Jalen
Speaker 1: Walker on the show. He is the person that was
Speaker 1: you know, they were attempting to apprehend him on a
Speaker 1: traffic stop. If I'm not mistaken, I think it was.
Speaker 2: An equipment stop too, So not speeding, not not doing
Speaker 2: something criminal, just maybe not having the money to get
Speaker 2: your tail like repaired or something like that, or your
Speaker 2: windows being tinted darker than they should be.
Speaker 1: There you go. So he keeps driving, please start pursuing.
Speaker 1: A lot of police get behind him, and then the
Speaker 1: police say that he fired a gun out of the car.
Speaker 2: In their direction. Please say this right.
Speaker 1: One shot. Then finally he ends up parking the car.
Speaker 1: Some murrey gets out of the car. The police say
Speaker 1: he reached in his waistband and held his hands up
Speaker 1: in such a way that they felt like he still
Speaker 1: had the gun. They shot him a bunch of times,
Speaker 1: and the gun turned out was in.
Speaker 2: I want to be a little more specifically, they shot
Speaker 2: him ninety six times. Yeah, so that's a bunch of
Speaker 2: a bunch of times, you know, right. I didn't even
Speaker 2: want to let that live so vague. I appreciate that. Actually,
Speaker 2: let me read almost that means almost ten officers empty clips.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they were reloading and continuing to shoot. So
Speaker 1: so let's let's read this. This is from the Black
Speaker 1: Information Network of the Iron News dot com. If you
Speaker 1: want to check so police previously said Walker failed to
Speaker 1: stop when officers tried to pull him over for minor
Speaker 1: equipment violations in June twenty twenty two. According to police,
Speaker 1: Walker fired a shot from his vehicle during the pursuit.
Speaker 1: At one point during the encounter, Walker jumped out of
Speaker 1: his still moving vehicle and attempted to flee on foot.
Speaker 1: According to a state investigation of the incident, officers initially
Speaker 1: tried to use tasers to stop Walker, but police believed
Speaker 1: he was going to fire again after the twenty five
Speaker 1: year old reached toward his waistband and raised a hand.
Speaker 1: For the state investigation, walker had left his gun in
Speaker 1: the car off officer Aspire. The total of ninety six
Speaker 1: shots within seven seconds, forty six of those hitting Walker.
Speaker 1: So what we're talking about in terms of lack of
Speaker 1: accountability is that none of the eight officers involved were
Speaker 1: charged after an internal investigation revealed these findings. Right now,
Speaker 1: this isn't a community oversight committee. This isn't a place
Speaker 1: where Walker's family could bring forth evidence or hire a
Speaker 1: separate investigator anything. This was an internal investigation. And Q
Speaker 1: has a great analogy about police investigating themselves.
Speaker 2: Because and of course finding nothing no wrong. There we
Speaker 2: go there. We looked at us and we thought we
Speaker 2: was cool. So there you go, right, y'all have to work,
Speaker 2: so y'all be cool.
Speaker 1: And people don't realize that the consequences of that is
Speaker 1: that trust is further eroded nationally, and it has been
Speaker 1: eroded for such a long time. People wonder why black
Speaker 1: people don't really interact with police, don't communicate with police,
Speaker 1: don't have none to stay the police, and then these
Speaker 1: things happen, and people still wonder that.
Speaker 2: This is.
Speaker 1: A gross misuse of force, This is indeed an act
Speaker 1: of violence. I believe that this is anti black. And
Speaker 1: the fact of the matter is that even if Jalen
Speaker 1: Walker was suicidal and he wanted death by cop and
Speaker 1: you know, the worst optics, even if that's what he
Speaker 1: wanted from this, you and I have seen, because of
Speaker 1: the amount of footage and stories that come across our
Speaker 1: desk time and again, officers confronting people like that and
Speaker 1: at least attempting to de escalate a situation prior to
Speaker 1: letting off shots. And when they do let off the shots.
Speaker 1: Seldom do we hear of stories that involve non black
Speaker 1: people that involve this amount of shots where a person's
Speaker 1: not holding a gun.
Speaker 2: I love your grace and your you know, benefit of
Speaker 2: the doubt, and saying seldom I don't have a single account. Yeah,
Speaker 2: well I'm trying to be I'm trying to cover all bags.
Speaker 2: Someone might say, remember this one time that you come
Speaker 2: from that place. My memory serves me correctly. Not only
Speaker 2: do I not have an account, but I have actual
Speaker 2: accounts of the contrary, where police are actually put in
Speaker 2: danger forcefully, aggressively forwardly by someone that's not black, and
Speaker 2: refuse to use their weapons, someone who's armed and trying
Speaker 2: to harm them. Sure, and already harming others. Sure, sure, so.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, we've seen him in the back of
Speaker 1: the police car getting McDonald's or burger king or whatever.
Speaker 2: We've seen him.
Speaker 1: Saw a video the other day of a guy that
Speaker 1: was actively attacking an officer with a stick and the
Speaker 1: officer had the gun drawn. It was like, drop the stick,
Speaker 1: drop the stick, and the guy just swinging at him.
Speaker 1: The officer keeps backing up.
Speaker 2: Seeing a video of a guy hitting officers with their
Speaker 2: car and ramming them. Still no need for this to
Speaker 2: turn violent. Yeah, and ninety six shots is just kind
Speaker 2: of like and I think you said multiple officers reloaded.
Speaker 2: I know that there was there was reloading. I can't
Speaker 2: say how many officers did, but imagine that up. I
Speaker 2: emptied my clip. Let me the one guy who who
Speaker 2: we all already shot, let me reload to make sure
Speaker 2: that we're safe. So that's why, you know, because the
Speaker 2: research that we've done, excuse me, the research that we've
Speaker 2: done has shown that that's why you would. That's why
Speaker 2: they shoot and reload, just to make sure that they're
Speaker 2: safe from a guy who's my bad. I didn't mean
Speaker 2: to cut you off.
Speaker 1: Go ahead, well again, I think it shows a disregard
Speaker 1: for human life and black life.
Speaker 2: Thank you. I don't know that they have a disregard
Speaker 2: for human life.
Speaker 1: But if that was the only story, that would be
Speaker 1: way too much. So allow me to add some additional
Speaker 1: framing for you that helps again framed the second part
Speaker 1: of the show here. So Elijah McLain's death, as you know,
Speaker 1: as we talked about, this was a hard story for
Speaker 1: us to talk about. I remember this one because Elijah
Speaker 1: McLain was such a kind person. We saw the videos
Speaker 1: we saw, you know he was. I believe he might
Speaker 1: have been on the spectrum or something like that. There
Speaker 1: was he had like a I know he had a
Speaker 1: blood condition or some sort of health condition that he
Speaker 1: would cast him to get colds. A soft, mild, kind, warm,
Speaker 1: young person, and he glowed all those adjective.
Speaker 2: And I said soft intentionally, not as a pejorative, but
Speaker 2: this kid was a soft person intentionally, not some coward
Speaker 2: of some sort, but no, just meant no one any harm,
Speaker 2: even while being harmed. I love you and forgive me.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. So when we had to cover this story,
Speaker 1: we obviously did our research on Elijah McLain and we
Speaker 1: saw these videos. We got a chance to see who
Speaker 1: he was, his temperament. And then of course there was
Speaker 1: the video or the audio from the body cam and
Speaker 1: the video whatever of him saying all these kind things
Speaker 1: as he was being harmed by the officers. He was
Speaker 1: wearing a ski mask because he had a blood or
Speaker 1: a health condition.
Speaker 2: I forget what it was. I believe this was in Colorado.
Speaker 2: In Colorado, Yes, he were a ski mask in the mountains, folks,
Speaker 2: where it's cold in the wintertime. I believe.
Speaker 1: I looked this up too. I feel like it was
Speaker 1: like sixty six degrees or something like that. And because
Speaker 1: he had like a blood condition. It caused him to
Speaker 1: feel cold, even more cold than I would feel or
Speaker 1: you would feel, right, And so he dressed warm, probably
Speaker 1: at a point when other people would be fine. So again,
Speaker 1: he's walking home, he's got the ski mask on. Someone
Speaker 1: calls the police on him because he's suspicious. The police
Speaker 1: show up and he dies. He doesn't have a gun,
Speaker 1: he's not never harmed anybody's not intending to harm anyone.
Speaker 1: He's trying to communicate, trying to explain everything to him.
Speaker 1: And somehow this would lead you to believe those officers
Speaker 1: showed up with the intentions of doing harm to someone.
Speaker 1: And that's speculative, of course, but you show up without
Speaker 1: the intention of doing harm to someone, and maybe the
Speaker 1: unarmed young person is still alive today. And again, if
Speaker 1: that was it, that would be too much. But the
Speaker 1: officer who's responsible for choking the life out of him
Speaker 1: as he was saying all these things, everything that Q
Speaker 1: said he said, I implore you to go look up
Speaker 1: the transcript or watch the body cam footage again. Elijah McClain,
Speaker 1: I think he was in Aurora, Colorado. If you're not
Speaker 1: familiar with the story, how he was kind and apologizing,
Speaker 1: He's like I'm just different. I don't mean any harm,
Speaker 1: and I'm not saying that this is exactly what he said,
Speaker 1: but effectually, this is what he was communicating to the officers.
Speaker 1: And then he lost consciousness and then his life was
Speaker 1: over shortly thereafter. The officer that choked him to death
Speaker 1: is not back on the job with two hundred thousand
Speaker 1: dollars in back pay. That's what a lack of police
Speaker 1: accountability looks like. He killed him.
Speaker 2: He killed him.
Speaker 1: He can't live another day of his life, any goals
Speaker 1: and he dreams, anything like that gone. This officer is
Speaker 1: back on the job to potentially do it again with
Speaker 1: an extra two hundred thousand dollars in his pocket, because
Speaker 1: there's no accountability. He's Elijah is gone.
Speaker 2: We saw him.
Speaker 1: You could see his spirit. That's the type of spirit
Speaker 1: that deserves to live. We need more humans like that.
Speaker 1: He's gone, not drawing bread. They had to bury him,
Speaker 1: and that officer is an officer again with two hundred
Speaker 1: thousand dollars back business as usual. How hurtful is that?
Speaker 2: I'm past hurt, you know what I mean? Like it's
Speaker 2: this is turned into anger. It's and again perpetual anger
Speaker 2: to live as a as an informed black person in
Speaker 2: this country and in our space where part of what
Speaker 2: we do for a living to do right by you,
Speaker 2: our listeners, and our partners, is to have to ingest
Speaker 2: all of this information on an almost daily basis. It
Speaker 2: takes a lot for us to not be perpetually furious.
Speaker 2: You'd have to be unaware, to be calm, or find
Speaker 2: some way to compartment in lives like we try to do.
Speaker 2: Sharing the load of this of this burden and this
Speaker 2: trauma and everything that comes with it. It is a
Speaker 2: really impossible.
Speaker 1: Ask, real quick for everybody that does, you know, reach
Speaker 1: out to us on social media. We appreciate all of that,
Speaker 1: Q and I do our best.
Speaker 2: To all of it.
Speaker 1: Some more people are really really yeah, but we appreciate
Speaker 1: the people that are concerned about our mental health and
Speaker 1: we try to take good care of each other, so
Speaker 1: we appreciate all that. Now, hang on, now, if this
Speaker 1: officer that killed Elijah McClain being back on the job
Speaker 1: with two hundred thousand dollars in his pocket wasn't enough,
Speaker 1: or if that wasn't too much, how about this? This
Speaker 1: comes from the Black Information Network, the Goon Squad of Mississippi.
Speaker 1: Those cops. Turns out they got away with years of
Speaker 1: police brutality. And this goes back to what I've been
Speaker 1: saying time and again, we only know about these instances
Speaker 1: because these are the police that get caught or when
Speaker 1: they get caught. But indeed, this story goes and I'll
Speaker 1: read a bit, several deputies in Mississippi's rankin County Sheriff's
Speaker 1: Department have engaged in excessive force, police brutality and abuse
Speaker 1: unchecked for years, according to reports. The department was initially
Speaker 1: thrust into national spotlight after five deputies from the department,
Speaker 1: who referred to themselves as the Goon Squad, tortured and
Speaker 1: sexually assaulted Michael Jenkson. Jenkins and Eddie Terrell park are
Speaker 1: two black men during a raid earlier this year. According
Speaker 1: to court documents and incident reports obtained by Business Insider,
Speaker 1: the violent incident, among several is among several examples of
Speaker 1: police brutality that the officers have gotten away with for years.
Speaker 1: Two of the officers involved in the torture of Jenkin
Speaker 1: and Parker, Christian Deadman and Hunter Elward, were also reportedly
Speaker 1: present for the deaths of two other black men in
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen and twenty twenty one. One incident report reveals
Speaker 1: that Edwards punched Damien Cameron at least three times and
Speaker 1: tasted him before his death. According to Monica Lee, Cameron's mother,
Speaker 1: the deputies knelt on his back for over fifteen minutes,
Speaker 1: despite complaints that he couldn't breathe. Elward and Deadman were
Speaker 1: also present for the police shooting of Pierre Woods in
Speaker 1: February twenty nineteen, according to documents, So again, what happens
Speaker 1: when this stuff goes unchecked is that it keeps happening.
Speaker 2: They doubled down, they tripled down, And.
Speaker 1: You need to know about these things, because how do
Speaker 1: we change it if you don't