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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here as always

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Speaker 2: with Courtney Armstrong and Body Moven and tonight.

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Speaker 3: We have Ava Kaplan with us. Taha has the night off,

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Speaker 3: and of course.

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Speaker 2: We have Adam and Sam in the control room waiting

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Speaker 2: for your call eight eight eight three one crime because

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Speaker 2: guess what, It's Tuesday, April seventh, and we have a

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Speaker 2: stack night of headlines. Sam Altman from Open AI is

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Speaker 2: under some major fire right now. We have two stories

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Speaker 2: to unpack with him. Plus we're diving into the disturbing

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Speaker 2: allegations around this Alabama man who might become the most

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Speaker 2: prolific series real killer and uh that's pretty astounding. We

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Speaker 2: discussed this a little bit last night. Plus a Florida

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Speaker 2: teenager allegedly murders a local sex offender and a dexter

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Speaker 2: inspired type crime.

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Speaker 3: Was this justified?

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Speaker 2: And of course later we have Joseph Scott Morgan from

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Speaker 2: the hit podcast Body Bags with us to discuss all

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Speaker 2: of the forensics. So if you have any questions for him,

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Speaker 2: please call us or leave us a talk back. Ladies,

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Speaker 2: Happy Tuesday, Happy Tuesday. I'm calling this Joseph Tuesday. This

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Speaker 2: is Joseph Tuesday, as it should be, Saint Joseph.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right. So have you heard about this Bahama story?

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Speaker 4: This one?

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Speaker 3: Yes, everywhere. It's everywhere everywhere.

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Speaker 4: So we're gonna unpack it tonight. Can we just jump

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Speaker 4: right into it?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, let's do it.

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Speaker 5: Okay.

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Speaker 4: So the woman who's missing, her name is Lytte Lynette Hooker.

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Speaker 4: She's a five years old and she's from Michigan, and

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Speaker 4: she went missing in the Bahamas on the fourth of April,

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Speaker 4: so just a couple of days ago after reportedly falling

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Speaker 4: overboard from a small dinghy while boating with her husband

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Speaker 4: and the Bahamas. And now the family is calling for

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Speaker 4: a full investigation. Okay, So she went missing. She they

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Speaker 4: were in a dinghy. They were they were in this

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Speaker 4: little dinghy going to their yacht, right and apparently you

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Speaker 4: know how you're on a boat and you have uh,

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Speaker 4: like the keys and the ignition and it's like attached

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Speaker 4: to like a little lanyard on your belt or something,

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Speaker 4: and you take the When you take those keys out,

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Speaker 4: the engine stops right. Well, according to the husband, she did,

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Speaker 4: you know, the seas were really rough and she fell

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Speaker 4: overboard and she had the keys attached to her. So

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Speaker 4: when she fell overboard the engine stopped. He lost sight

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Speaker 4: of her. And he was floating all night until like

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Speaker 4: four am in the morning, lost sight of her, and

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Speaker 4: now she's missing. That's the that's the story that we're getting.

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Speaker 4: He couldn't he couldn't get the boat to start because

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Speaker 4: she had the keys, right, he couldn't go after her.

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Speaker 4: So now the family is.

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Speaker 3: How scary that must be.

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Speaker 2: If you've lost your loved one overboard it's dark out,

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Speaker 2: you have to what do you do?

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Speaker 3: Do you You jump in?

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Speaker 2: I assume to save them, but it's it's impossible and

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Speaker 2: I did right.

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Speaker 3: Wow, terrible.

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Speaker 4: So here's here's what. So they spend a lot of time,

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Speaker 4: you know, kind of documenting their sailing journey. They've got

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Speaker 4: like a YouTube channel, they've got an Instagram channel, and

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Speaker 4: they call themselves the Sailing Hookers, which is a very

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Speaker 4: cute name, right, And they visit islands like the Great

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Speaker 4: kwana Kee. They go snorkeling. You know, they're kind of

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Speaker 4: like social media travelers, right, So they've got a little

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Speaker 4: bit of a following too. So here's the here's the

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Speaker 4: timeline of everything that happened.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 4: The State Department of the United States issued a travel

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Speaker 4: advisory for the Bahama on March thirty first, okay, and

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Speaker 4: they said specifically boat and water travel in that country.

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Speaker 4: They said boating is not well regulated, injuries and deaths

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Speaker 4: has occurred. Always follow local weather and marine alerts, and

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Speaker 4: it's unknown if the couple knew about this or not, right,

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Speaker 4: And they specifically said, you know, avoid these small boats. Okay,

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Speaker 4: So that was March thirty first, April second, just real.

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Speaker 6: Quick, because you question, you know, if they if they

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Speaker 6: know to sort of look at the weather and everything

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Speaker 6: sounds like they're seasoned boaters and they spend their time. Yeah,

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Speaker 6: because I mean, honestly, I went to sailing camp. I

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Speaker 6: was not doing what these folks are doing. And man,

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Speaker 6: you're pretty on top of the weather.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 5: Well.

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Speaker 4: The thing is, though, the State Department said that sometimes

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Speaker 4: local operators totally ignore weather forecasting okay, in the Bahamas.

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Speaker 4: So it's anknown if the couple this or not, I

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Speaker 4: mean I would imagine, you know. So that was March

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Speaker 4: thirty first that this issue kind of went out, this

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Speaker 4: advisory from the State Department. And then Friday, April second,

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Speaker 4: they posted to social media. This was their final kind

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Speaker 4: of like social media post, and they showed a small

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Speaker 4: boat and the caption said not going anywhere for a while.

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Speaker 4: And I don't don't really know what that meant. So

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Speaker 4: two days later, on Saturday, Saturday evening April fourth, around

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Speaker 4: seven thirty, they left the Abaco Inn in Hopetown and

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Speaker 4: they have a yacht in it's called Soulmate and it's

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Speaker 4: near Elbow City and they left the They left on

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Speaker 4: this little eight foot dinghy because you got to, you know,

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Speaker 4: travel to your your your boat, right. So on that

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Speaker 4: night there was eighteen to twenty two not winds, strong

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Speaker 4: offshore current, on shore currents in very limited visibility. A

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Speaker 4: passing cold front also made navigation very high hazardous. So

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Speaker 4: I'm just like setting the stage right now. Okay, that night,

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Speaker 4: while en route, she apparently fell overboard. She again she

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Speaker 4: had that engine key, causing the dinghy to lose power.

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Speaker 4: Brian Hooker, her husband, lost sight of her, and apparently

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Speaker 4: strong currents swept her away. She was not wearing a

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Speaker 4: life jacket and there were no other flotation devices in use. Reportedly,

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Speaker 4: he told officials that he last saw her swimming toward

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Speaker 4: the shore, thinking so he's probably thinking, okay, she made

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Speaker 4: it right, So about the same night, while early in

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Speaker 4: the morning, because you know, time has passed, so it's

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Speaker 4: gone to the next day now, So early morning he

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Speaker 4: kind of was like rowing the boat to this powerless dinghy,

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Speaker 4: but he was unable to make really any headway against

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Speaker 4: the wind and all these currents, and he eventually beached

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Speaker 4: the boat and started hiking through bush to reach Marsh

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Speaker 4: Harbor Boatyard where he reported her missing. And this happened

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Speaker 4: around four o'clock in the morning, and this triggered this

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Speaker 4: coordinated search and rescue operation. Okay, so within the last

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Speaker 4: couple of days, the April fifth through the sixth, teams

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Speaker 4: have conducted air and sea patrols. They're facing strong currents

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Speaker 4: and poor visibility as well. The US Coast Guard is assisting,

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Speaker 4: but there hasn't been a single trace of Lynnett Hooker yet.

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Speaker 4: So today, April seventh, today, after all these unsuccessful search days,

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Speaker 4: authorities confirmed this operation has now transitioned to a recovery effort,

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Speaker 4: and the State Department today also issued a statement saying

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Speaker 4: that they are working with the Bihamian authorities to provide

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Speaker 4: assistance and highlighted you know, the boating risks, and there's

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Speaker 4: a level two travel advisory to the Bahamas right now

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Speaker 4: urging travelers to exercise you know, increased caution. Do arise

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Speaker 4: in violent crime, including murders, armed robberies, sexual assault, else

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Speaker 4: particularly with Nasau and Freeport. So now enter the family. Okay,

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Speaker 4: Lynette's daughter today, her name is Cary Aylesworth. She's twenty

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Speaker 4: eight years old, and she is calling for a full

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Speaker 4: and complete investigation into her mother's disappearance, and she's citing

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Speaker 4: prior issues and requesting federal, state, and local authorities get involved.

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Speaker 4: Cary says, I have been privy to very little information.

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Speaker 4: My sole concern is to find out what happened to

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Speaker 4: my mother and to make sure a full and complete

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Speaker 4: investigation is performed into her disappearance. So listen, daughter doesn't

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Speaker 4: really I don't think by dad's story. Now, this isn't

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Speaker 4: her biological father, this is her stepdad. Brian is her stepdad.

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Speaker 4: And she's I don't think really buying the story that

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Speaker 4: he's saying.

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Speaker 6: And at this point, do we know what prior issues

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Speaker 6: refers to. We don't, because that could mean about a

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Speaker 6: million things, right right, Yes, they're both small brokes issues

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Speaker 6: because they were fighting issue because.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, right.

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Speaker 4: So she went on to say, while the Royal Bahamian

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Speaker 4: Police are investigating this matter, I would also appreciate any

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Speaker 4: involvement of the federal, state or local authorities to look

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Speaker 4: into the circumstances of this situation. And she's hired an

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Speaker 4: attorney on top of it. There have been prior issues

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Speaker 4: brought to my attention which may be important for any

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Speaker 4: thorough investigation. So something has come to her attention that

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Speaker 4: she might not have known about. That is like raising

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Speaker 4: some red flags with her, she says. She went on

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Speaker 4: to say, if this was truly an accident, I can

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Speaker 4: understand and live with it. However, there needs to be

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Speaker 4: an intensive review of the facts and circumstances of this

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Speaker 4: tragic accident or incident before that can be determined.

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Speaker 2: She did not seem, at least in the interview that

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Speaker 2: I saw with daughter, she did not seem convinced that

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Speaker 2: this was an accident. No, she didn't say that per

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Speaker 2: se directly, not that directly, but it seemed as though

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Speaker 2: she had not spoken to her stepfather since this incident,

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Speaker 2: and that she was getting back channeled information.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, it gave me some pause.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, me too, I mean I but when you take

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Speaker 4: into account, you know, they issued this small boat advisory

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Speaker 4: on March thirty first, and then you know, two days later,

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Speaker 4: three days later, she falls overboard on the small boat.

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Speaker 4: Like two things can be true, right, Like it could

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Speaker 4: be really bad weather and she fell over an accident

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Speaker 4: or this husband took advantage of the situation. He took

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Speaker 4: advantage of this. And somehow the daughter knows something that

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Speaker 4: we don't, we're not privy to, and is like, no,

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Speaker 4: I don't think this.

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Speaker 6: Is and even what I'd be so curious about. And

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Speaker 6: I of course officials and everyone else is looking into this.

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Speaker 6: But in the previous social media posts, are they wearing

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Speaker 6: life jackets all the time?

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Speaker 3: Are they?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 3: Is that they're not? So that's consistent, okay, because that.

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Speaker 6: Was that was an immediate question, especially if you're in

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Speaker 6: a dinghy, Right, if you're in a dinghy and even

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Speaker 6: in it, you can feel the weather that's it reminds

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Speaker 6: me a little of Natalie of Natalie Wood.

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Speaker 2: Remember story all that month, beautiful Natalie Wood, the famous actress.

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Speaker 2: She was on a boat with Christopher Walking also the

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Speaker 2: famous actor, and Natalie Wood's then husband.

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Speaker 3: His name, I'm.

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Speaker 2: Escaping Robert something, isn't it Robert Wagner exactly? So she

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Speaker 2: was married to Robert Wagner. The three of them went

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Speaker 2: on this, you know, boat ride in the night. She

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Speaker 2: was afraid of water and was not a strong swimmer,

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Speaker 2: and allegedly there was some sort of a scuffle or

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Speaker 2: some sort of an argument, and that Chris Walkin, who

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Speaker 2: was like kind of the third wheel, went to bed.

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Speaker 2: They had been drinking, and then you know, maybe Natalie

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Speaker 2: and her husband had some sort of an alleged argument.

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Speaker 3: This has been wildly debated by the way. He says

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Speaker 3: that did not happen, and that.

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Speaker 2: She slipped overboard, but others have made the assertion that

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Speaker 2: maybe her husband tossed her overboard or didn't really try

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Speaker 2: to save her when she fell overboard, because when she

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Speaker 2: ultimately was found suspiciously, Natalie Wood was wearing like a

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Speaker 2: flannel nightgown, and I don't think she had undergarments on,

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Speaker 2: meaning she wouldn't have just like gotten on a dinghy

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Speaker 2: to go ashore as a famous actress in her flannels.

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Speaker 3: So it was always been kind of suspicious.

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Speaker 2: And this was before, of course, social media and before

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Speaker 2: there was so much technology. So it's one of those

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Speaker 2: cases that ultimately Robert Wagner was never brought under investigation

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Speaker 2: fully and he was never charged, and her death remains

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Speaker 2: a mystery.

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Speaker 3: But this sounds like a mystery as well.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, although speaking of because I really didn't know the

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Speaker 6: story either body, and we should look into it, because yeah,

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Speaker 6: I'm just seeing that the case was reopened in twenty

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Speaker 6: eleven due to those suspicions you spoke about Stephanie and

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Speaker 6: that I.

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Speaker 2: Love Natalie would so much. Like this case was really

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Speaker 2: tragic one, right.

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Speaker 4: I remember it being talked about a lot, but I

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Speaker 4: never really knew all the details about what happened.

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Speaker 3: And Christopher walk can never say anything.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Christopher Walken was just like I don't know, and

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Speaker 2: nothing really happens. You know. There was all these allegations

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Speaker 2: or conspiracy theories that there was like, you know, a

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Speaker 2: three way triangle of some sorts that never really presented

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Speaker 2: itself to be accurate. But what did happen is that

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Speaker 2: the captain of that boat, who was you know, there

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Speaker 2: that night, probably one of the only bystanders, kind of

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Speaker 2: changed his story after the fact. And it seemed as

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Speaker 2: though there were also some people on the docks near

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Speaker 2: where the boat was when Natalie would have fallen overboard

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Speaker 2: that had heard some yelling or some kind of commotion.

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Speaker 2: So that sort of reopened it again, and then it

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Speaker 2: closed down, and then it opened and you know again

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Speaker 2: fame and money and a lot of important people were

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Speaker 2: involved at that time.

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Speaker 3: But at this point there's really no way to know.

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Speaker 4: Now there isn't well with this case. The the woman

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Speaker 4: who fell over, Lynnette looker, her mom now is getting involved.

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Speaker 4: So they get the mom and the basically the daughter,

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Speaker 4: So the grandma and granddaughter. Her name is Darlene, and

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Speaker 4: she's racing to obtain an emergency passport to fly to

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Speaker 4: the Bahamas, you know, and both women are pushing for

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Speaker 4: a thorough review of this incident. And the daughter Carly,

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Speaker 4: and I'm sure she's heartbroken. This is just terrible for her.

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Speaker 4: She said, her optimism is fading. She said, you know,

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Speaker 4: the more time that goes on, the more. I believe,

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Speaker 4: I disbelieve that she will come back alive, but I

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Speaker 4: hope maybe that she's on a little island somewhere, which

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Speaker 4: is literally I mean, it is possible, right right. The

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Speaker 4: Bahamas is full of those little islands. But you know, her,

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Speaker 4: her optimism is fading, but we are with you know,

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Speaker 4: we wish her all the best and and hope that

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Speaker 4: her mom comes home.

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Speaker 6: Oh absolutely, And of course we will continue following this

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Speaker 6: as more evolves, and keep it here when we come back.

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Speaker 6: We have not one, but two stories about Open AI

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Speaker 6: CEO Sam Altman. He is facing explosive abuse allegations from

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Speaker 6: his own sister and then later forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 3: Keep it here a true gran tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to true Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time of Stephanie Leidecker here with

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Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong.

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Speaker 3: And body move in. So listen.

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Speaker 2: Sam Altman of Open AI, he's the CEO, and he's

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Speaker 2: under a lot of criticism right now and frankly, some

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Speaker 2: really serious allegations coming in from his sister, Courtney Armstrong.

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Speaker 2: I know we are following this closely, and I'm really

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Speaker 2: looking forward to unpacking this with you.

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Speaker 3: So what do we know about the sister?

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Speaker 6: Okay, Annie Altman, she's claiming that her brother, Sam Altman,

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Speaker 6: is that he's sexually abused and raped her over multiple,

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Speaker 6: multiple years during their childhood. Altman categorically denies the allegations.

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Speaker 6: He has since filed a defamation countersuit, and what his

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Speaker 6: claims are is that his sister Ann any the accusations,

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Speaker 6: they're false, they're harmful. But this this is moving forward

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Speaker 6: in this moment. Annie Annie Altman, She's recently amended her lawsuit,

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Speaker 6: and this happened after a federal judge allowed her to

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Speaker 6: pursue claims under a Missouri child sexual abuse law that

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Speaker 6: expanded the statute of limitations.

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Speaker 2: By the way, I think also, it's in the conversation

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Speaker 2: so much right now, it's in the ether. So certain

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Speaker 2: victims are feeling like they have the option of going

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Speaker 2: back past, you know, many years at this point to

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Speaker 2: be able to actually still find justice.

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Speaker 6: Absolutely, and that seems exactly what Annie Altman is seeking.

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Speaker 6: So the allegations are that between nineteen ninety seven and

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Speaker 6: two thousand and six this abuse took place. So the

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Speaker 6: timeline of that is Annie Altman was only three years

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Speaker 6: old and went on until she was twelve years old.

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Speaker 6: And timeline suggests that Sam Altman this would have begun

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Speaker 6: when he was twelve and she was three and continued

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Speaker 6: until he was twenty one. So that is Annie Oltman's claim.

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Speaker 6: And she made posts allegations on social media, including one

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Speaker 6: video that stated quote an almost tech billionaire molested her,

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Speaker 6: which implicitly referenced you know, her brother, Sam Altman. And

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Speaker 6: here's where not here's where things get complicated, but here's

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Speaker 6: where things.

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Speaker 3: Get more layered.

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Speaker 6: The Altman family apparently has said that Annie Oltman has

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Speaker 6: some mental health challenges. So that is a piece of

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Speaker 6: information I'm sharing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and an important family.

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Speaker 2: Is it the parents or is it like cousin cousins

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Speaker 2: or are these distant family members.

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Speaker 6: It's unclear. It's unclear, tansting me in this moment. We

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Speaker 6: we asked the same thing earlier.

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Speaker 3: So family.

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Speaker 6: And and Sam Altman, he's saying that the lawsuit really

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Speaker 6: amounts to extortion. So we'll see the case right now.

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Speaker 6: It's ongoing. There's no findings of liability, and both the

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Speaker 6: amended civil claims and the defamation countersuit are active and

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Speaker 6: it'll be really.

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Speaker 3: Interesting to see how this sort of plays out. Body.

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Speaker 4: So when he when Sam Altman denied the allegations, there

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Speaker 4: was a public statement issued filing, you know, following the

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Speaker 4: filing of the lawsuit, and he his two younger brothers

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Speaker 4: and their mother said and he had mental health issues.

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Speaker 4: So the mom and the two younger brothers that said that, I.

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Speaker 2: Mean, those are pretty explosive allegations. I've beenclined, of course,

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Speaker 2: to always believe. And again, if these are a false allegation,

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Speaker 2: how terrible that your sister would do such a thing

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Speaker 2: despite having mental illness. If that's not the case. And look,

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Speaker 2: this is real money. So there's something about Sam Altman

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Speaker 2: though that frightens me a little bit.

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Speaker 4: Don't you think though too, Like if she was indeed,

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Speaker 4: you know, these allegations are true, that maybe some of

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Speaker 4: her mental illness could come from the abuse.

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Speaker 3: You know, I had the same thought.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean, and I don't it's true or not.

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Speaker 4: You know, I'm flying to believe victims, you know, but

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Speaker 4: right you know, you come back with, well, she's just

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Speaker 4: you know, crazy, Well maybe she's crazy because they're true.

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Speaker 5: M hm.

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Speaker 2: That's what happens when you've maybe been sexually abused since he's.

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Speaker 4: Three years old, right, or you could have mental health

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Speaker 4: issues and still be a survivor and victim.

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Speaker 3: You know, this is nine ten years of abuse.

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Speaker 2: If in fact this is it's accurate, that is a

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Speaker 2: tremendous amount of time for a young woman to be

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Speaker 2: subjected to sexual abuse. That it would be most of

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Speaker 2: her formative years to some extent, that's pretty troubling.

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Speaker 3: Those are really explosive allegations.

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Speaker 6: Absolutely, So this will obviously continue judicially and we will

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Speaker 6: follow that as it goes.

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Speaker 3: But it's it's.

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Speaker 6: Sad, no matter no matter what the outcome, it is sad.

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Speaker 6: But we also there's actually a second story I was

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Speaker 6: hoping we could get into.

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Speaker 3: Of course.

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Speaker 6: Yes, so there's been a new investigation by Ronan Farroh,

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Speaker 6: who I think is an incredible journalist. I think most

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Speaker 6: people think he's definitely very thorough guy. And this appeared

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Speaker 6: in The New Yorker and it is revealing previously undisclosed

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Speaker 6: allegations that Sam Olpen's firing by in AI's board involves

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Speaker 6: claims of deception, and some close to him are calling

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Speaker 6: him sociopathic.

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Speaker 2: Yea, it sounds like there was a lot of overturn

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Speaker 2: of employees around him. Ronan Pharaoh who we've spoken about

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Speaker 2: many times here. He's the son of Mea Pharaoh and

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Speaker 2: Woody Allen, and he did the me too breakthrough moments.

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Speaker 3: He did the heart such a deek exactly.

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Speaker 2: He was a big factor in the Harvey Weinstein takedown,

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Speaker 2: in the me Too movement thereafter. In fact, we've been

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Speaker 2: very curious why he wasn't as knee deep into the

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Speaker 2: Epstein files, et cetera, because it's so seemingly in his wheelhouse, right,

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Speaker 2: and one would have to assume that his his stepfather,

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Speaker 2: I mean, his actual father, Woody Allen, maybe being in

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Speaker 2: those files is maybe what is a conflict of interest.

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Speaker 2: So here he is now really dig in and it's

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Speaker 2: not very flattering what they're coming out with about Sam

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Speaker 2: Altman behind the scenes, right.

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Speaker 6: A little bit of background and then some of the

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Speaker 6: further allegations. So Sam Altman, he went to Stanford University,

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Speaker 6: dropped out and co founded Looped, which is a geosocial

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Speaker 6: networking startup now that raised thirty million dollars and then

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Speaker 6: sold for more than forty So that was his jump

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Speaker 6: at the start, and then he co founded open Ai

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Speaker 6: in twenty fifteen and became the CEO twenty nineteen, and

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Speaker 6: he led the whole launch of chat GBT in twenty

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Speaker 6: twenty two. He became obviously a key figure in this

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Speaker 6: AI boom. He was named among times as Architects of

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Speaker 6: AI for Person of the Year last year, and the

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Speaker 6: guys estimated to be worth three point three billion dollars

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Speaker 6: of this year according to Forbes.

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Speaker 3: Wow, yeah, quite quite a bit of power.

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Speaker 6: So and he also, excuse me, he also had just

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Speaker 6: looking at this, he had also joined a y Combinator,

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Speaker 6: which is an American technology startup accelerator.

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Speaker 3: During his tenure.

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Speaker 4: What does that even mean? Like when people say these

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Speaker 4: things are like an American technology startup accelerator, what is

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Speaker 4: that like? It sounds like mumbo jumbo to me, Like,

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Speaker 4: it doesn't sound like anything.

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Speaker 2: This is part of the problem because there's only a

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Speaker 2: couple of guys here that are seemingly running the entire

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Speaker 2: world in the text usness sam Altman being one of them.

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Speaker 2: And I think we have to really look at this

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Speaker 2: culture of billionaire slash trillionaires with a real fine tooth comb,

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Speaker 2: because ultimately the Sam Altman's the Peter teals the Elon Musk.

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Speaker 2: They are taking the world by storm. We just don't

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Speaker 2: have the toolbook. You know, they're making all the tools

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Speaker 2: and we're kind of all collectively playing catch up here.

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Speaker 2: We hear it every single day. Oh AI is coming.

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Speaker 2: It's going to take all of our jobs. Let's play

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Speaker 2: that out. If in fact, by twenty thirty, when, by

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Speaker 2: the way, there'll be more women that are money earners

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Speaker 2: in their home than men by.

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Speaker 3: Twenty thirty, let that sink in.

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Speaker 2: Similarly, by twenty thirty, we're allegedly not going to have

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Speaker 2: any jobs because AI has taken all of them. But

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Speaker 2: if AI has taken all of our jobs, so they're

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Speaker 2: saving money through technology, who's buying any goods? If none

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Speaker 2: of us have any money, doesn't the machine stop working.

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Speaker 2: If you're not actually buying any goods, there's no consumers

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Speaker 2: because we the consumers, would be penniless. And I don't

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Speaker 2: know that the bots and the robots that are taking

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Speaker 2: everybody's jobs are a of conscious minds where they have

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Speaker 2: empathy and the ability to make decisions based on heart

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Speaker 2: as well as mind.

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Speaker 3: That ship will sail.

438
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 2: And more importantly, people like Sam Altman hold the keys

439
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 2: to the castle. I mean, we're talking about privacy restrictions

440
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 2: and regulations that none of us are really privy to

441
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 2: at this point.

442
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 4: Well, and from what I'm reading about Sam Altonman and

443
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 4: these accusations about him being this kind of like sociopath

444
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 4: or whatever, he's basically lying to his investors and shareholders.

445
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 4: I'm getting the impression from the documents that Courtney has

446
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 4: dug up that he's almost like lying and this this

447
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 4: is all alleged by the way he's lying in order

448
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:58,400
Speaker 4: to further AI, right, to make it seem less less scary,

449
00:26:59,040 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 4: less scary.

450
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 2: He's already out of the bottle and has big money

451
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 2: on the line. Remember this technology, these technologies, I should say,

452
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 2: they're being used in the war that we are currently

453
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 2: finding ourselves in. These are you know, we've way passed

454
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 2: the idea of, hey, can you rewrite the opening sentence

455
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 2: to my poem for me?

456
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 3: Those days are over? You know, Like oh, chat, you know,

457
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 3: the AI of it all.

458
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 2: We talk about it here in terms of it being

459
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 2: in crime, but in terms of our privacy. Remember even

460
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 2: you know, any of these little chat open AI things,

461
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 2: it was all for a nonprofit. Meanwhile, it's really not

462
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 2: a nonprofit. That was all to just make sure that

463
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 2: they're getting all of our data. And therefore, what do

464
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 2: they do with that data? They sell it, and when

465
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,360
Speaker 2: they sell that data, what happens to us?

466
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 3: We don't know. We have literally no idea.

467
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 2: But Sam Altman, if he is of questionable character, that's

468
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 2: a real problem when somebody like that is pulling the

469
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 2: strings that we all ultimately will suffer from.

470
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 6: Right, And these allegations, some of them go back to

471
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 6: the two thousand, so for a really long time at

472
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 6: the startup Looped, employees reportedly twice as the board to

473
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 6: fire him over concerns about leadership and transparracy and complained

474
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 6: that he exaggerated all the time, even about trivial things.

475
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 3: And then while leading it's a bad sign.

476
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 6: And while leading the y Combinator, which you had said

477
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 6: sounds like a bunch of mumbo jumbo a startup accelerator.

478
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 3: What it is angel investments.

479
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 6: So you have a tech idea, you go to this

480
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 6: y combinator and there's a board of which Sam Altlin

481
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 6: goes on, and then angel investors come in and say, hey,

482
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 6: we're going to seed your company to help it grow.

483
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 3: So that's what the accelerator and.

484
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 4: Then will still your idea incorporated in correct and get

485
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 4: it exactly right.

486
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 3: And I mean you can say that.

487
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 6: You can also say the exact same thing about Reese

488
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 6: Witherspoon in her book Club, like anyway, I.

489
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 3: Don't know anything about that, but I believe you. I

490
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 3: don't know. That was like a dig at Lisee Witherspoon.

491
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, no, no, it was as a bone

492
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 2: to pick with my ree, I know, Withspoon. Take it back.

493
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 2: Have you guys seen the movie alone? That was so good?

494
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 2: She was so good and come on, so good. Anyway,

495
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:32,719
Speaker 2: she was so good she had to learn how to

496
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 2: sing all by herself, like June Cash, June.

497
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 3: Courtney, Courtney. Yes, off the rails, here, off the rails.

498
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 3: So people, you take a ban though, and did you

499
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 3: take it back?

500
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 2: Did you take back anything disparaging about Reese Witherspoon.

501
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 3: It's not disparaging. It's capitalism.

502
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 6: And it's also a topic for another day at another

503
00:29:53,160 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 6: time like period. So back to Sam Altman, So medy

504
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 6: complaints well in twenty twenty three, and this is a

505
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 6: lot of what the reporting started on by Rona Ferro,

506
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 6: Opening Eyes and chief scientist Ilia suitsgiver compiled about seventy

507
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 6: pages of HR documents and slack messages, and they really

508
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 6: all alleged to sception by Altman that he was misleading

509
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 6: executives and the board specifically about AI safety protocols. This

510
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 6: line really caught my attention. One memo started quote Sam

511
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 6: exhibits a consistent pattern of the very first line item

512
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 6: is lying. He then was removed as CEO, but then

513
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 6: was brought back only five days later. I don't know

514
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 6: if you guys remembered when that happened. It was pretty

515
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 6: It was huge fanfare, definitely, and listen the employees and

516
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 6: investors revolted. They threatened to quit unless he returned, because

517
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 6: you know, some people see him as he was leading

518
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 6: the charge, the visionary, the face. Absolutely, but you know

519
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 6: the scientists behind this have other things to say. So

520
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 6: an internal review leered Sam Altman to remain CEO, but

521
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 6: provides only oral findings, and one source says it didn't

522
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 6: conclude that he was very truthful.

523
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 4: Bottom line, so pretty scary when this is like now

524
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 4: integrated into our government such we.

525
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 2: Have our favorite forensics expert, Joseph Scott Morgan with us.

526
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 2: He's also the host of the hip podcast body Bags.

527
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 2: You can also check him out on YouTube with his

528
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 2: fancy YouTube channel.

529
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 3: Joseph, You're back. Are you missing us or what?

530
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 5: I of course I am. I always miss you guys.

531
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 5: Some people might be disingenuous and saying things like this,

532
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 5: but it is my favorite night of the week. It's

533
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 5: a relaxed format.

534
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 3: That is true. That is true. Although we have a

535
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 3: million questions for you, Joseph.

536
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 2: Yes, let's do it so again. You know, this Alabama

537
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 2: case kind of a stressful one. This person could potentially

538
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 2: be one of Alabama's serial killers of all time. You know,

539
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 2: I don't even know how to say that correctly. It's

540
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 2: interesting because he's not like a traditional serial killer, right,

541
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 2: but he's killed, well, allegedly, he's killed multiple people. His

542
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 2: name is Daniel or Damian McDaniel, I'm sorry, and he's

543
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 2: facing capital murder charges, which means the death penalty. And

544
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,959
Speaker 2: this all stems from multiple mass shootings. He's kind of

545
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 2: like a mass shooter slash serial killer, kind of like

546
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 2: all in one, which is very unusual. And you know,

547
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 2: these these included what they believe to be targeted shootings,

548
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 2: targeted killings, and of course innocent bystander, well, everyone is innocent,

549
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 2: but by standard deaths. Prosecutors are alleging that he acted

550
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:16,479
Speaker 2: as the primary enforcer of homicides for a Birmingham area

551
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 2: drug organization, making him again one of the most prolific

552
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 2: alleged killers in Alabama history and a potential serial killer

553
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 2: under you know, the FBI standards, although not again not

554
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 2: what you know Americans would consider, you know, the psychologically

555
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,479
Speaker 2: driven serial killers like you know Dahmer or Bundye or

556
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 2: you know, one of those kind of things.

557
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 4: He, you know, wasn't traditional. The trial for Damian McDaniel again,

558
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 4: he's accused of killing eighteen people injuring thirty others across Birmingham.

559
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 4: It's officially scheduled for next year January twenty fifth of

560
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 4: twenty twenty seven. And this is a ner the back

561
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 4: your back, you're you're your back door, right, Joseph.

562
00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 5: Yeah. And this this is why I've got to give

563
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 5: a bit shout out to my true crime tonight family.

564
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 5: Did you guys, do you guys realize you guys are

565
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 5: the only national platform and I appear on a lot

566
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,320
Speaker 5: of them that has even scratched the surface of this case.

567
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,879
Speaker 5: Really to frame to frame Yes, to frame this up.

568
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 5: I beg pleaded. I've done everything, I've given interviews with locals,

569
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 5: never anything like you, guys. This is the kind of case.

570
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 5: These cases. I don't want to. I don't want to

571
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 5: be dismissive of the victims cases. There are multiple eighteen homicides,

572
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 5: thirty people injured. Here's the thing about it, Yes, a

573
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 5: baby did that baby. This is the kind of individual

574
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 5: that papers in academia will be written about, the and

575
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 5: the the news media nationwide. Buckus, nothing crickets. You don't

576
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 5: hear anything. And it just absolutely infuriates me. Yes, it's

577
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,839
Speaker 5: right in my backyard, it's right down the road. And

578
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 5: this is an absolute tragedy. Guys.

579
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm so you're talking about it. Me too, And

580
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,280
Speaker 7: you know, it's such a strange. The thing that interests

581
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 7: me about this case. Obviously, he's killed a lot of

582
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,240
Speaker 7: well allegedly he's killed a lot of people.

583
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 4: He's being accused of killing a lot of people. But

584
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 4: what's interesting about this case is that he's such an

585
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 4: interesting conglomeration of types of offenders. There's no specific victim,

586
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 4: right like normal serial killers have a type of victim.

587
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 4: These all seem to be like revenge focused or you know,

588
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 4: there's no evidence of any kind of stalking his victims,

589
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 4: but they are seen. They do seem to be either

590
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 4: financially motivated, revenge focused, or some kind of misunderstanding. They're

591
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 4: saying that this could also be like a hitman of

592
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 4: some two on top of it.

593
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's what I wanted to interject here. There

594
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 5: is another example of this, and please forgive me because

595
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 5: I cannot remember this guy's name and I can't pronounce it,

596
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:00,919
Speaker 5: but I will give you a hint. If you guys

597
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 5: have ever seen the program Iceman.

598
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I've seen it.

599
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that in and of itself,

600
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,399
Speaker 5: I think about that individual, which is a true guy

601
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:14,800
Speaker 5: that was a mob killer, and there is no telling

602
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 5: how many he killed, but he had a taste for it.

603
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 5: That guy had a normal family life, you know, and

604
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 5: went about his business and it was all about the business, y'all.

605
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 5: But yet he is still killing in a serial format

606
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 5: and he's moving from location to location. You got multiple locations,

607
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 5: multiple victims that come from a wide you know, the

608
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 5: only difference. The Iceman guy was very very targeted, okay, right,

609
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,839
Speaker 5: you know, he had right in orders yeah.

610
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 3: This guy's indiscriminate.

611
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 4: He walked into a fire station right in July of

612
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 4: twenty twenty three and just started shooting, killing firefighter Jordan

613
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 4: Melton and seriously injuring another firefighter during what authorities are

614
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 4: describing as a targeted attack. And they say it's targeted

615
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,360
Speaker 4: not because of the fireman, but because he purposely walked

616
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 4: in to that fire station. But they don't they haven't

617
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 4: said if there's any connection. But by all accounts, he

618
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 4: didn't know this person, this fireman.

619
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 5: I'm sorry.

620
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 3: On Valentine's Day.

621
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 4: On Valentine's Day of twenty twenty four, he killed a

622
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,399
Speaker 4: young couple and their unborn baby. Now, this is as

623
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 4: I think this incident here is why it's a capital

624
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 4: murder case. From what I read earlier that this is

625
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 4: why it's a capital murder case is because of the

626
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 4: unborn child. And then he did a couple of mass

627
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 4: shootings at venues like part like clubs, mass shootings. You

628
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 4: normally don't get people who you know shoot one or

629
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 4: two people and then also commit mass shootings as well.

630
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 4: It's I'm really surprised nobody's talking about this.

631
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 5: Just yea, I am too. It really it seems like

632
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 5: it would whet the appetite, if you will, for people

633
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,479
Speaker 5: that are interested, and certainly newsies that are out there,

634
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 5: you know, some producer that just any producer that would

635
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 5: come along see the story and say, oh my lord,

636
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 5: this is so vast, you know, just the total number

637
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 5: of people that are killed and injured. Why wouldn't you

638
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 5: Why wouldn't you want to cover it? Because this is

639
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 5: something that people need to be aware of. It's happened

640
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 5: in Birmingham, and Birmingham has problems just like every other

641
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 5: large city, but this is something as a result of

642
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 5: what he did. Let me just frame this out. I

643
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 5: think in one year he was responsible for some huge

644
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 5: percentage of the total number of homicides that took place

645
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:38,839
Speaker 5: in Jefferson County, Alabama, which is you know, Birmingham. And

646
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,760
Speaker 5: it's something like in like the range of like thirty

647
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 5: percent of all homicides could be laid at his feet.

648
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:48,359
Speaker 5: Agen Okay, and that number is mind blowing.

649
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:52,800
Speaker 4: Here right, So oh sorry, please, Joseph, I have a question.

650
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 6: There was a hearing this week and the prosecutors told

651
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 6: the judge that there were eight quote touch DNA swabs

652
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 6: taken from the bullets in the trendsetter cases. That was

653
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 6: one of the sort of lounge cases, I believe. So

654
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 6: what does that mean? What should that mean to us?

655
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I'm holding up a cartridge casing right now.

656
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:15,839
Speaker 5: Rather it's a rifle, but it's still the same thing.

657
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 5: It's brass. So anytime, and let's just pretend that we're

658
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 5: loading a weapon, okay, and we're pressing those rounds down

659
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,359
Speaker 5: into a magazine. Every time you press your thumb onto it,

660
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 5: you're potentially depositing. You're on DNA and it is touch DNA.

661
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 5: We're talking about slough skin cells, these sorts of things

662
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 5: which are only a partial strand, so you have to

663
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 5: do kind of this amplification of it, and it's a

664
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 5: tedious process. One of the big things that they're worrying

665
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:50,720
Speaker 5: about is that you burn through your sample really really quickly.

666
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,359
Speaker 5: If I'm not mistaken court, that's one of the things

667
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 5: that prosecution has stated in this filing is that we're

668
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 5: going to be burning through all of the sample. So

669
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 5: the defense council is not going to have an opportunity

670
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 5: to bring their on expert in to do the same assessment. Okay,

671
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 5: And that's one of the major major problems here.

672
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 4: Right, And the judge said that she's going to wait

673
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,799
Speaker 4: one week before ruling on that, and the prosecutor said

674
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 4: that they will inform the court then which case they

675
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:26,320
Speaker 4: plan to try first. Because there's multiple incidents, Like you said, Joseph,

676
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 4: there's multiple spanning the course of only one year where

677
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 4: he killed eighteen people and injured many others. In the trial,

678
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 4: it was originally set for to start this month. Actually, yeah,

679
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,479
Speaker 4: it was set to start in April of twenty twenty six,

680
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 4: and now we have to wait until January of twenty

681
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 4: twenty seven. And listen, I don't know if we're going

682
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 4: to get any answers from this guy. It doesn't seem

683
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 4: that he was like driven psychologically. Like I said, this

684
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 4: is not a traditional serial killer case, but it does

685
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,839
Speaker 4: have elements of that. So I do hope that more

686
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 4: people start talking and paying some attention to it because

687
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:03,240
Speaker 4: it's very unique and very interesting.

688
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is going to burn through the resources of

689
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 5: the court too. Let's just imagine that we've just imagine

690
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 5: we've got an a frame shaped house with an attic

691
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,760
Speaker 5: and you're packing stuff into that attic and the rafters

692
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 5: will collapse. That's what we're looking at here because of

693
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 5: the number of cases here, does the judicial system have

694
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 5: the ability to support this and support all of the

695
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 5: work that's going to go into this, because for every

696
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 5: homicide that you're prosecuting, that's work. That single count is

697
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 5: a huge amount of work, and each one of those

698
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 5: cases is treated individually. It'll be I think from a

699
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 5: judicial standpoint and a prosecutorial standpoint, it will be really

700
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:48,399
Speaker 5: interesting to see how the prosecution actually attacks this and

701
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 5: what resources they're going to put to it, and also

702
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:53,800
Speaker 5: how's the defense going to handle it? How do you matchine?

703
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 6: Right?

704
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 3: How do you match that? Well? Listen, we'll keep you updated.

705
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,760
Speaker 6: And yeah, and on the fact that, if convicted, Damian

706
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 6: McDaniel indeed would become Alabama's most prolific known killer. If

707
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 6: you're just joining us, this is true Crime Tonight, and

708
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 6: we are joined by Joseph Scott Morgan, forensic expert and

709
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 6: wonderful human. If you have any questions for Joseph forensically, give.

710
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 3: Us a call. We're at eighty eight three to one crime.

711
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 6: I wanted to briefly touch on a case which we

712
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 6: spoke about quite a while back, and that case is

713
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 6: John and Carrie Halford. Now they're both facing federal and

714
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 6: state sentencing. That's going to be happening pretty soon. And

715
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 6: the allegations are that from twenty nineteen to twenty thirteen,

716
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 6: John and Cary Halford they ran a funeral home in

717
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 6: Colorado and stored decomposing bodies instead of properly cremating or

718
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:59,280
Speaker 6: burying them. They defrauded families as well as the federal government,

719
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 6: including giving fake ashes to grieving families and receiving nearly

720
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 6: nine hundred thousand dollars in COVID nineteen relief funds, all

721
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 6: through fraudulent loan applications. So, Joseph, I know this is

722
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 6: this is a story near and dear to your heart.

723
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 3: What do we need to know?

724
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:26,280
Speaker 5: I think again, here we are. We're talking about volume again. Okay,

725
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 5: So for every every decedent whose remains, and I am,

726
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 5: among all other things, an advocate for the dead in

727
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 5: all things, for each one of those decedents, that is

728
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 5: abuse of a corpse. That's a separate count. And so

729
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,280
Speaker 5: you tie that back financially again. You know, the Feds

730
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 5: can handle this sort of thing. Okay, they can handle

731
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 5: this kind of volume. And it's just the accountability. Here's

732
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 5: the other thing too, You don't there's so many of

733
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 5: these remains. I really hope that they've gotten this right

734
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 5: as far as identification goes. How heartbreaking is it. And

735
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 5: there's been other cases like this over the years. You've

736
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 5: heard me mentioned the infamous Try Try State mortuary event

737
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 5: that occurred many many years ago, and that guy was

738
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:19,880
Speaker 5: and he got charged federally as well. He got charged

739
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 5: with handing back. He would do busted up concrete ashes,

740
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 5: those sorts of things and sealed and give that back

741
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 5: to the fact. Can you imagine that you entrust a

742
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 5: funeral director or a crematory with the remains of the

743
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 5: person that has held you as you were a small child,

744
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 5: that has taken care of you, and you've got garbage

745
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 5: that's handed back to what becomes of the remains. And

746
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 5: that's the real thing that doesn't truly get addressed here.

747
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 5: You know, money is all finding good. They're going to

748
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 5: be fined all these sorts of things. But when it

749
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 5: comes down to it, the bare essences of this this

750
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 5: really I don't know. It amazes me, and this is

751
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 5: rather trite, but amazes me what one human being is,

752
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 5: or a couple of human beings are capable of doing

753
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 5: the most defenseless doing to the most defenseless among us.

754
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 5: And this is a real scarring event. And it's happened

755
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 5: before in Colorado, It's happened in other locations. But there

756
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,880
Speaker 5: are several of these cases that are floating around out there.

757
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:22,919
Speaker 5: And also this ties back to something that has gone

758
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 5: on for a while, and we've talked about it. There

759
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 5: was a recent case in Pennsylvania grave robbing and also

760
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 5: trading in human remains. This is a real problem and

761
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 5: it's becoming progressively broader. This is a snapshot of it.

762
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 5: And for some reason, people have a real comfort level

763
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 5: we're doing this sort of thing. It seems as though

764
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 5: we're accelerating in this area.

765
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 6: And I mean, we're talking about Joseph to your point,

766
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 6: one hundred and ninety separate victims. And I'm pleased to

767
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 6: say that John Halvard, he's been sentenced to twenty years

768
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 6: in federal prison. And yes, Joseph, the money is maybe,

769
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 6: you know, small relief, but man, it's really deplorable to

770
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 6: know that both John and carry Halford they use this

771
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 6: money that they got and used it for Infinity cars

772
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 6: and wearing Gucci and Tiffany and laser body sculpting. I

773
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 6: don't know that that just.

774
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 5: It's absolutely discussing on so many levels. It's as you know, look,

775
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 5: I viewed what I did in professionally as a practitioner

776
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 5: is a very sacred a sacred thing because I knew

777
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 5: who I was, what I was entrusted with at that moment.

778
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,280
Speaker 5: Tom and some people, I don't know. It's it's weird

779
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 5: how people develop this kind of callous on their soul

780
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 5: almost where they lose sight of that and it is

781
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,440
Speaker 5: reduced to dollars in that sense, what can sense The

782
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 5: people that are never going to recoup in this are

783
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 5: going to be the family, the true victims here that

784
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 5: are never going to have a moment's piece.

785
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 6: That's right, Joseph, And we'll stay on this because Carrie Halford,

786
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 6: her sentencing is scheduled later this month, April twenty fourth,

787
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,280
Speaker 6: And do stick around because at the top of the hour,

788
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 6: we're talking about a Florida teen who's been accused of

789
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 6: brutal killings of a sex offender. And Joseph Scott Morgan

790
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:19,320
Speaker 6: stays with us True Grime Tonight.

791
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:31,879
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

792
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

793
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,319
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong and body Move In. And yes, we have

794
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan, our very favorite forensics expert with us,

795
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 2: also the host of Body Bags. If you haven't caught

796
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 2: one of his three episodes a week, you could also

797
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 2: watch it on YouTube. So keep it coming. So there's

798
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:54,879
Speaker 2: a couple of cases that we still need to get

799
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:58,240
Speaker 2: to this evening. By the way, just a little tease

800
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 2: for tomorrow. It does seem like tomorrow we're going to

801
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 2: have some big new developments in the world of the

802
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 2: Long Island serial killer. We're anticipating some sort of a

803
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:13,359
Speaker 2: plead plea agreement to come into place, potentially as soon

804
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 2: as tomorrow afternoon. So we'll be following that closely and

805
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:21,280
Speaker 2: covering that tomorrow if in fact that happens. But also

806
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 2: back to this case in Florida. So this young teenage

807
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 2: boy really became, likely in his own mind, a bit

808
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 2: of a vigilante, a Robin Hood type or a Dexter type,

809
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 2: in that he's accused of taking the life of someone

810
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 2: who allegedly is also a sex offender. And here we are,

811
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 2: this is a real messy one, Joseph and body.

812
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,239
Speaker 4: What do you think I have been dying to talk

813
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 4: about this with Joseph and you guys too, obviously ever

814
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:53,760
Speaker 4: since I read about it. So let me sit the table,

815
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 4: all right. So Lucas Sander Jones, he's nineteen. Well, he's

816
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:01,360
Speaker 4: now in custody without bond in Brevard County, Florida, after

817
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:07,720
Speaker 4: he allegedly murdered, dismembered, and disposed of Collie Lee Daniel Okay.

818
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 4: Lucas allegedly targeted Collie because he was a registered sex offender.

819
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,320
Speaker 4: He was convicted in twenty eighteen of lude or lacivious

820
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 4: behavior of a minor age twelve through fifteen, and police

821
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 4: are alleging that Lucas used extreme premeditation. He attacked Collie

822
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 4: with multiple weapons, dismembered his body. And this is where

823
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 4: it gets. I mean, all of it's crazy, but this

824
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 4: is where it's like.

825
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:31,439
Speaker 6: Eh.

826
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 4: He collected his blood on a micro microscope slide. Did

827
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:39,320
Speaker 4: you guys see Dexter? I mean, did you guys watch Dexter?

828
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 3: Yes? Ever, oh I love Dexter.

829
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:45,280
Speaker 4: Dexter took blood from every single one of these victims,

830
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 4: and he put them in like a little case and

831
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 4: looked at them all the time and like touched them

832
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 4: and stuff. It was part of his ritual. So this

833
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 4: guy was kind of because this was the maybe what

834
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 4: he was starting was this collection of microscope slides. So

835
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:06,800
Speaker 4: apparently prior to the murders, Lucas he printed he printed

836
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 4: out a list of nearby sex offenders and so he

837
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:15,759
Speaker 4: was planning this Collie again. He was twenty eight years

838
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 4: old Collie. Lucas is nineteen and Collie was convicted in

839
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:23,880
Speaker 4: twenty eighteen of luda lascivious behavior with a minor and

840
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:27,919
Speaker 4: he resided in nearby in the Atlantic, Florida. I hope

841
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 4: I'm saying that right India, Atlantic Florida.

842
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 6: You are.

843
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 4: So here's what Here's what happened. This all happened in

844
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:37,400
Speaker 4: just Reese. I mean this happened very recently, March twentieth

845
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:40,839
Speaker 4: of twenty twenty six. So Collie failed to return home

846
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 4: and his parents used you know, find my iPhone to

847
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 4: locate him, right, and they located his iPad at Lucas's residence,

848
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:51,839
Speaker 4: So they drove over there. They knock on the door

849
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 4: and Lucas apparently confirmed that Collie was inside, but he

850
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:58,239
Speaker 4: refuses to let anybody in.

851
00:50:58,840 --> 00:50:59,280
Speaker 3: Okay.

852
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,320
Speaker 4: Well, later his girlfriend comes home and she sees blood

853
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 4: on the floor, the tile grouts, the tile grouts got

854
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 4: blood on it, base boards have blood on its walls,

855
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:13,920
Speaker 4: and his jeans. Plus there's like black spray paint and

856
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 4: whatnot in the hallway. It's very odd. So he confesses

857
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:20,600
Speaker 4: to his girlfriend, I killed somebody and cut him up.

858
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 4: And he tells his girlfriend, don't say anything the police.

859
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 4: I'm cleaning up the crime scene. So he tells her

860
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 4: that he attacked Collie with a baseball bat, cleaver saw

861
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 4: and a knife, dismembered him, and then collected his victim's

862
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:41,759
Speaker 4: blood to put on these microscope slides. Then they drove

863
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 4: around him and his girlfriend drove around and made multiple

864
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 4: stops around Palm Bay, leaving totes and suitcases containing Collie's remains,

865
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:55,719
Speaker 4: and they put them all on separate locations. I mean,

866
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 4: this is wild. This is to me, is wild. Joseph

867
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 4: who or anything like that?

868
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,319
Speaker 5: No, No, I haven't. And I got to tell you,

869
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:07,799
Speaker 5: just from Jump Street, if I've got someone that is

870
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 5: okay this collecting collect sample like this, I'm going to

871
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 5: want to do a deep dive on this person. Because

872
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 5: I don't and again I'm trying to stay in my

873
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 5: lane here, but if I have someone that is doing

874
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 5: this and they have I don't know, what would sound

875
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 5: like a kill list. Perhaps I want to know if

876
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 5: this is their first time out of the gate, and

877
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 5: what else is there to be revealed. The police are

878
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 5: not releasing a lot of them fro right now relative

879
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:43,360
Speaker 5: to the very specific. But we do know that the

880
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 5: victim's body was found in multiple They're saying toads. I've

881
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 5: heard suitcases. I even heard a plastic container, So I'm

882
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:59,280
Speaker 5: not really sure. So we don't really know the body

883
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 5: has been obviously dismembered, but we don't really know how

884
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 5: many separate individual components there were, right, and this is

885
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 5: a this is a trace evidence nightmare. Well, and I'm

886
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:21,800
Speaker 5: talking about everything relative to you know, he collected blood.

887
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:24,279
Speaker 5: Apparently if you look at dexter, you think about that

888
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 5: little sample DNA, Well he's leaving, he's depositing his own

889
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 5: DNA or whoever did this onto the surface of these things.

890
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 5: So when you go out to a scene and you

891
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:39,120
Speaker 5: work this, here, here's here's the rub. If you go

892
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 5: out to a scene and you work this and say, uh,

893
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 5: and the one thing that we forgot to mention is

894
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:46,359
Speaker 5: that one of the ways they found out that this

895
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 5: these remains were there was that buzzards were roosting. You

896
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 5: had voltage, yeah that we're yeah, that had kind of

897
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 5: descended and yeah, and so this kind of in this

898
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:00,920
Speaker 5: area where the remains are found, it's a place I

899
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:04,160
Speaker 5: think it's called the compound. Guys, this thing has never

900
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:07,759
Speaker 5: been occupied. It's never been built up. It's got to

901
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:14,280
Speaker 5: dig this two hundred miles of paved streets two hundred miles. Yeah,

902
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 5: the streets are all paved and they never built this

903
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:20,759
Speaker 5: thing out. The company went bankrupt. People know about this place. Yeah,

904
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 5: and this is not the first This is not the

905
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 5: first time a body has been found out there. Okay,

906
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:29,320
Speaker 5: So yeah, this place has got kind of a creepy history.

907
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 5: And so you think about this case in particular, it's

908
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:35,359
Speaker 5: something that he may have known about that he had

909
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:37,440
Speaker 5: seen in the news. I think I even covered one

910
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 5: of the cases from out there at some point in time.

911
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:43,600
Speaker 5: So these remains are spread out, so he's going to leave.

912
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,760
Speaker 5: Whoever did this is going to leave trace evidence, whether

913
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:50,720
Speaker 5: it's bone, dust, it's hair, it's something that transferred onto

914
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 5: the exterior of this thing. You can have bloody handprints

915
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:57,279
Speaker 5: on this area, and again those are very fragile. Touch

916
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 5: DNA is very fragile. So when here's kind of the thing.

917
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:05,440
Speaker 5: If you're an investigator, and I've really been kind of

918
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:09,400
Speaker 5: noodling with this, If you're an investigator, if you confirm

919
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:12,239
Speaker 5: one of the containers has remains in it, and you

920
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:15,480
Speaker 5: find other containers, do you run the risk of opening

921
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 5: up each individual container at the scene or do you

922
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 5: just collect them blindly get them back to the morgue

923
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:26,759
Speaker 5: in a controlled environment where you can unpack. Because with

924
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 5: the dismemberment cases I've had, we went into painstaking detail

925
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:39,600
Speaker 5: to really treat each individual remain based upon its potential

926
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 5: value of evidence that it's going to have trace evidence.

927
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:46,879
Speaker 5: If you've got tape on there, anything's been wrapped, it's

928
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:49,960
Speaker 5: a nightmare. You actually have to take each container and

929
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 5: X ray the container with the remains in it, try

930
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:54,399
Speaker 5: to determine what you have in it before you ever

931
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 5: open it. That's the way it should be done, not

932
00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 5: saying it was done that way. So this is.

933
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:03,879
Speaker 4: Something that's like the methodology you should be using when

934
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:06,560
Speaker 4: you're you're processing the scene.

935
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:10,839
Speaker 5: Yeah, it is if you get sometimes it's nothing. And

936
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:14,800
Speaker 5: I'm not disrespecting small police departments, but I'm saying sometimes

937
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:16,760
Speaker 5: they get over zealous and they want to crack everything

938
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 5: open out there, but that's not the best way to

939
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 5: approach it. It'll be very interesting, I think, is as

940
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:26,040
Speaker 5: this process moves through the system, kind of see from

941
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:31,319
Speaker 5: an educational standpoint how they went about it. I'm hoping that,

942
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:33,240
Speaker 5: you know, they really really took their time.

943
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:37,759
Speaker 6: If you're just joining us, we're talking about a case

944
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:40,200
Speaker 6: of a Florida teen who appears to be something of

945
00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 6: a vigil anti and he is accused of murdering and

946
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 6: dismembering and disposing of Collie Lee Daniel. So this is

947
00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:55,440
Speaker 6: fascinating all of everything that needs to go into a scene,

948
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 6: or whether or not you bring that scene back to

949
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:01,800
Speaker 6: a controlled environment, and is there anything else we should

950
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:03,839
Speaker 6: know regarding this case about that?

951
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:09,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, from from my perspective, you've got you've got multiple

952
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:11,839
Speaker 5: scenes here. It's not just where the body is deposited.

953
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 5: We regard the area where the body is as a

954
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 5: primary scene. And I know you guys have heard me

955
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:22,840
Speaker 5: talk about this, so forgive me, but but where a

956
00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 5: body where an individual is killed, that's a scene. Where

957
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:31,760
Speaker 5: an individual is dismembered, that's a scene, and that is

958
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:34,560
Speaker 5: going to actually be the secondary scene. You can have

959
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 5: tertiary scenes like, for instance, if anything is thrown out

960
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:41,000
Speaker 5: of the window onto the side of the road, just

961
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:46,080
Speaker 5: kind of discarded. You know, you go back to OJ Simpson.

962
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 5: One of the big things with that case is that

963
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 5: when he was on the way to Lax, allegedly there

964
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:55,000
Speaker 5: was potentially that's what happened to the knife. The knife

965
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:57,800
Speaker 5: was like cast aside out of the window. That'd be

966
00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:01,520
Speaker 5: a tertiary scene. So this is all hands on deck.

967
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:04,840
Speaker 5: This is going to really strain your resources, but you

968
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 5: know that's what we train for, and this is an

969
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:11,040
Speaker 5: all nighter. You have to be prepared to work this

970
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:14,600
Speaker 5: because there's multiple scenes. There's just balloom in his evidence

971
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 5: in this case.

972
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:18,600
Speaker 4: You know, this happened in Brevert County and Dexter of

973
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:22,200
Speaker 4: course takes place in Miami. I mean, there's so many

974
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:27,160
Speaker 4: different it's almost like he is it's purposeful in a sense,

975
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 4: like there's so many similarities that I think he's trying

976
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 4: to like tie himself a little bit to Dexter. And

977
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:36,480
Speaker 4: you know, I mean in the terms of pop culture.

978
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:40,320
Speaker 4: You know, I think that the broader, you know, the

979
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:43,280
Speaker 4: pop culture world has often said, I'm going to dexter

980
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 4: this person, you know, made light of something, and this

981
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 4: guy really took a tart. I mean he printed out

982
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 4: a list. He printed out a list. He's nineteen nineteen.

983
00:58:53,920 --> 00:58:56,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, you so assume he has a history of some

984
00:58:56,720 --> 00:59:01,440
Speaker 2: sort either against you know, he has either somebody has

985
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 2: victimized him maybe, or somebody he loves has been victimized.

986
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:09,920
Speaker 2: It seems as though this is a revenge kill like

987
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:10,560
Speaker 2: no other.

988
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:15,920
Speaker 4: Right, So they at the home. There's evidence at the home. Now, Joseph,

989
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:20,120
Speaker 4: you mentioned primary scene, right, So is the primary scene

990
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:22,880
Speaker 4: where the killing occurred or is that where the body

991
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:23,440
Speaker 4: is found?

992
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:28,520
Speaker 5: Excellent question. It all depends on who you ask. I

993
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:33,680
Speaker 5: always hold to the fact that it's where the body is.

994
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:37,560
Speaker 5: That's your primary because the body. Again not disrespecting the dead,

995
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 5: but when an individual dies at the hands of another,

996
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:45,160
Speaker 5: their body is the biggest piece of evidence that you

997
00:59:45,240 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 5: have and it is sacricyanc do you have to protect

998
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:50,520
Speaker 5: it at all costs. So for me, that's going to

999
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:53,600
Speaker 5: be the primary scene. But that doesn't mean that segendary

1000
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:56,200
Speaker 5: scene is not going to heavily play into this, because

1001
00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:58,360
Speaker 5: that's where you're going to learn this kind of death

1002
00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:01,640
Speaker 5: dance it took place. Other thing is that the accused

1003
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:06,160
Speaker 5: allegedly has got an injury to the right aspect of

1004
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:10,520
Speaker 5: his neck and also I think his left arm, and

1005
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:14,560
Speaker 5: they've been not koy, but they they have not been

1006
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:18,960
Speaker 5: very specific in the nature of those injuries. So I'm

1007
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:22,680
Speaker 5: really wondering if some kind of struggle had ensued at

1008
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:26,800
Speaker 5: some point and you know, he wound up with these insults,

1009
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:30,040
Speaker 5: that is, the accused wound up with these insults as

1010
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:32,480
Speaker 5: a result of this particular incident.

1011
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:36,600
Speaker 4: Well, evidence at the secondary scene, let's say that which

1012
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:39,400
Speaker 4: was the home and where this crime allegedly took place.

1013
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:41,600
Speaker 4: So the evidence at the secondary scene, I sound smart

1014
01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:49,360
Speaker 4: now includes cracked tiles shape went ahead, So apparently he had,

1015
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:52,240
Speaker 4: you know, taken his head and banged it, you know,

1016
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:56,040
Speaker 4: against the tiles. It's terrible, and there's blood on the

1017
01:00:56,040 --> 01:01:00,160
Speaker 4: baseboard walls, which is consistent with blunt force trauma. So

1018
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 4: you know, he he did confess to his girlfriend, and

1019
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:06,360
Speaker 4: his girlfriend kind of relayed all this information and gave

1020
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:11,040
Speaker 4: on March thirtieth and provided the police with a detailed

1021
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:13,960
Speaker 4: account of you know, this true timeline that they're calling.

1022
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:19,760
Speaker 4: He's now accused of premeditated murder, dismemberment, abuse of a

1023
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:25,200
Speaker 4: dead body, transporting human remains and unauthorized containers, and tampering

1024
01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:28,520
Speaker 4: with evidence. He's arrested for a first degree murder and

1025
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:32,240
Speaker 4: other charges. He is held without bond in Brevard County Jail,

1026
01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:35,160
Speaker 4: and his arraignment is it's coming up. It's scheduled for

1027
01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:38,480
Speaker 4: April twenty first, and police are going to continue to

1028
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 4: investigate any petition, you know, potential additional evidence and maybe

1029
01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:44,720
Speaker 4: even Stephanie to your point, look at maybe some other

1030
01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:47,280
Speaker 4: people that might appear on this list he printed out

1031
01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:49,400
Speaker 4: that might have gone missing or something to see if

1032
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:50,440
Speaker 4: he's say before.

1033
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:52,880
Speaker 2: Or or even who was next on his list maybe

1034
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:56,720
Speaker 2: one hundred percent, or what's happening with his backstory that

1035
01:01:56,880 --> 01:02:00,400
Speaker 2: makes him feel that this is necessary, that you know,

1036
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 2: law enforcement is not doing enough to keep the community safe,

1037
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:08,720
Speaker 2: if in fact, this is all against registered sex offenders.

1038
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:12,720
Speaker 4: Right, because there's lists are available publicly, you can just go.

1039
01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:15,080
Speaker 5: Oh, yeah, they are. I looked him up immediately. It's

1040
01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:17,000
Speaker 5: still active. You can go and see it. Two more

1041
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:19,960
Speaker 5: little points along the way that you guys might find interesting.

1042
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:23,840
Speaker 5: There was a knife found contained with inside of one

1043
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:28,440
Speaker 5: of the containers with these remains that's identical to the

1044
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:30,880
Speaker 5: knives that he had in his house. And also an

1045
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:36,240
Speaker 5: Amazon package with the alleged perpetrator's name and address on

1046
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:41,200
Speaker 5: it that was found contained in here as well. So yeah,

1047
01:02:41,240 --> 01:02:44,080
Speaker 5: I don't know that this is something that an individual

1048
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:47,680
Speaker 5: may have put a lot of thought into. But yeah,

1049
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 5: when you when you kind of take that in and

1050
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:53,880
Speaker 5: begin to kind of, you know, process that in your brain,

1051
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:56,720
Speaker 5: you're thinking, I have to think. There's an old say

1052
01:02:56,720 --> 01:02:58,680
Speaker 5: and a friend of mine used to say, does your

1053
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:01,560
Speaker 5: mind work? So you know, I'm thinking about that.

1054
01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:05,240
Speaker 3: So there you go, No, there, I guess go. That's

1055
01:03:05,240 --> 01:03:09,320
Speaker 3: a great question. That is so funny. Stick around.

1056
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 6: There's a Pennsylvania police informant who has been murdered, and

1057
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:17,120
Speaker 6: Joseph Scott Morgan sticks around to unpack how it all unfolded.

1058
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:30,360
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime tonight an iHeartRadio. We're talking

1059
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:33,760
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Steph here with Courtney

1060
01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:36,720
Speaker 2: and here with Body dancing their little hearts out, and

1061
01:03:36,800 --> 01:03:39,760
Speaker 2: of course we have Joseph Scott Morgan our favorite forensics

1062
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:44,160
Speaker 2: expert and host of the hit podcast Body Bags back

1063
01:03:44,200 --> 01:03:44,640
Speaker 2: with us.

1064
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:47,440
Speaker 3: Now the case he's going to tell us about next.

1065
01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:50,840
Speaker 2: I have not really seen Joseph this hot under the

1066
01:03:50,880 --> 01:03:52,919
Speaker 2: collar about a case in quite some time.

1067
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:55,120
Speaker 3: He even used a swear.

1068
01:03:54,840 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 2: Word during the during the commercial Little Sauces Sure was

1069
01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:01,480
Speaker 2: He's sure, Josette.

1070
01:04:02,040 --> 01:04:04,400
Speaker 3: Wait, hold on, we have Reese Witherspoon calling home.

1071
01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:10,200
Speaker 2: Please by don't do it?

1072
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:12,640
Speaker 3: Oh wait, okay, wait hung up?

1073
01:04:13,880 --> 01:04:16,920
Speaker 2: Hi. So, yes, Joseph, this one's got you under the

1074
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:19,760
Speaker 2: collar big time. You know court, do you want to

1075
01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:20,560
Speaker 2: set it up first?

1076
01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:21,439
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1077
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:23,440
Speaker 6: So, I'm just going to give a few details to

1078
01:04:23,520 --> 01:04:27,640
Speaker 6: listeners who aren't familiar. Steve Gaddis, he's a man who

1079
01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:30,720
Speaker 6: was sentenced to it's between forty three and one hundred

1080
01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:33,640
Speaker 6: years in prison. This happened just about a week and

1081
01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:37,280
Speaker 6: a half ago, and it was for murdering an informant,

1082
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:42,600
Speaker 6: Matthew Wiseman. This happened back in twenty twenty four, and

1083
01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:46,520
Speaker 6: it's really bringing a major Pennsylvania criminal case to a

1084
01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:50,320
Speaker 6: courtroom resolution, you know, which is the right way to

1085
01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:53,880
Speaker 6: do it. So back in April twenty twenty four, twenty

1086
01:04:53,920 --> 01:04:57,720
Speaker 6: five year old informant, Matthew Wiseman. He was cooperating with

1087
01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 6: police on a Maryland shooting investmentstigation. In that investigation, the accused,

1088
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:12,640
Speaker 6: Stephen Gaddis was suspect, and he abducted beat and injected

1089
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:18,200
Speaker 6: a lethal a lethal dose of fentanyl to the informant,

1090
01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:24,560
Speaker 6: math in the victim, killing him. Also the victim's cousin.

1091
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:31,840
Speaker 6: These two men also were engaged in this horrible killing. Sturgedly,

1092
01:05:32,520 --> 01:05:34,240
Speaker 6: I know, and all three men have been charged with

1093
01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:39,960
Speaker 6: multiple offenses. However, right now, only Stephen Gaddis has been sentenced.

1094
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:41,200
Speaker 6: The others await trial.

1095
01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:45,040
Speaker 4: So the victim's cousins participated in the killings.

1096
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:46,600
Speaker 3: That's correct.

1097
01:05:46,960 --> 01:05:49,800
Speaker 4: Allegedly interesting, Okay, there's got to be a lot more

1098
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:51,200
Speaker 4: to the story.

1099
01:05:51,280 --> 01:05:55,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, And the thing, the reason, I'll tell you straight up,

1100
01:05:55,280 --> 01:05:58,000
Speaker 5: the reason this thing makes me so furious. I've always

1101
01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:04,760
Speaker 5: hated bullies, and this comes down to someone who took

1102
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:09,080
Speaker 5: advantage of this young man and just kind of set

1103
01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:12,680
Speaker 5: this up. This young man had been struggling with learning

1104
01:06:12,760 --> 01:06:15,920
Speaker 5: disabilities his entire life. I'm not going to say his childlike,

1105
01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:20,880
Speaker 5: but yeah, the victim and so he's been in the

1106
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:25,560
Speaker 5: state for a while. Well, he's been adjacent to conversations

1107
01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:31,360
Speaker 5: that were occurring with this perpetrator, and weaken de claire

1108
01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:35,400
Speaker 5: now that he is a perpetrator, he's a no good murderer,

1109
01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:42,440
Speaker 5: and they'd been intimidating this poor kid for a protracted

1110
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:48,240
Speaker 5: period of time. The kid was worried. He volunteered or

1111
01:06:48,280 --> 01:06:52,160
Speaker 5: he was asked questions by the police, essentially because they

1112
01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:55,840
Speaker 5: had this open shooting case that had taken place some

1113
01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:59,360
Speaker 5: months earlier and he had direct knowledge of it. He said, yeah,

1114
01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:04,320
Speaker 5: he says, I'll I'll give testimony. So the perpetrator took

1115
01:07:04,320 --> 01:07:07,600
Speaker 5: it upon himself to not just you know, I know

1116
01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:11,560
Speaker 5: that you've mentioned that there was a fentanyl injection, but

1117
01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:18,320
Speaker 5: they they had beaten this young man in the basement

1118
01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:21,120
Speaker 5: of a home. I don't know if it was in

1119
01:07:21,160 --> 01:07:24,560
Speaker 5: an attempt to try to elicit information find out how

1120
01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:27,560
Speaker 5: much he knew that had been passed on to the police.

1121
01:07:28,560 --> 01:07:34,480
Speaker 5: And in one chilling part to this, they beat him

1122
01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:39,560
Speaker 5: then forced him to take a bath and clean himself up,

1123
01:07:41,160 --> 01:07:46,600
Speaker 5: sat him down at a table, and provided food for him.

1124
01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:50,280
Speaker 5: And then the perpetrator leaned over and whispered in his

1125
01:07:50,360 --> 01:07:54,280
Speaker 5: ear and said, how do you feel about this? Be

1126
01:07:54,360 --> 01:07:55,520
Speaker 5: in your last meal.

1127
01:07:56,400 --> 01:08:00,280
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh.

1128
01:07:59,560 --> 01:08:04,320
Speaker 5: And then they took him out on a roadway in

1129
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:09,840
Speaker 5: this rural area and he had two syringes boath with

1130
01:08:09,960 --> 01:08:19,639
Speaker 5: fentanyl in them, and they injected with fentyl and pushed

1131
01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:22,200
Speaker 5: him over the edge of a bridge out in the

1132
01:08:22,240 --> 01:08:26,680
Speaker 5: middle of nowhere. Well, the bridge is a feeder for

1133
01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:29,200
Speaker 5: I think it's the I'm going to get this wrong,

1134
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:32,960
Speaker 5: and so all my Maryland friends please forgive me, but yeah,

1135
01:08:33,080 --> 01:08:37,880
Speaker 5: into it's into a feeder stream that dumps into the Susquehanna,

1136
01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:43,200
Speaker 5: and the Susquehanna actually feeds travels down and dumps into

1137
01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:46,759
Speaker 5: the Chesapeake Bay. And it was it was months before

1138
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:49,880
Speaker 5: they actually found his remains that they had just been

1139
01:08:50,280 --> 01:08:53,679
Speaker 5: decomposing in this little feeder stream that dumps it. Never

1140
01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:57,800
Speaker 5: his remains never made it into the river. So they've

1141
01:08:57,800 --> 01:09:01,880
Speaker 5: got this poor man, this poor young man who you know,

1142
01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:05,760
Speaker 5: was kind of a gentle soul. He's never really hurt anybody.

1143
01:09:06,120 --> 01:09:10,640
Speaker 5: He just happened to overhear comments that this perpetrator was

1144
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:15,639
Speaker 5: making about his involvement with the shooting. And they really,

1145
01:09:15,760 --> 01:09:20,519
Speaker 5: you guys, kind of touched on this just briefly. His

1146
01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:24,080
Speaker 5: cousins who are actually half brothers. Bore witness to this

1147
01:09:24,280 --> 01:09:27,840
Speaker 5: entire thing. They knew that it was happening. They bore

1148
01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:31,360
Speaker 5: witness to every job in tittle, as they say, and

1149
01:09:31,439 --> 01:09:33,960
Speaker 5: had an awareness of it. And I think that they

1150
01:09:33,960 --> 01:09:37,360
Speaker 5: were prompted to roll over. Additionally, more than likely. It's

1151
01:09:37,360 --> 01:09:41,400
Speaker 5: why we haven't seen charges at this point. But this

1152
01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:44,920
Speaker 5: is one of the more callous cases. I think that

1153
01:09:45,040 --> 01:09:49,080
Speaker 5: what really put the hook in me was this moment

1154
01:09:49,360 --> 01:09:52,840
Speaker 5: in time when you know, it is reported that and

1155
01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:55,559
Speaker 5: I think this is coming from the cousins, that he

1156
01:09:55,680 --> 01:09:59,920
Speaker 5: whispered this to this poor kid, and they reported that

1157
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:02,080
Speaker 5: as soon as he said this, he kind of dipped

1158
01:10:02,080 --> 01:10:06,439
Speaker 5: his head down and started weeping. So in the face

1159
01:10:06,520 --> 01:10:09,680
Speaker 5: of that, in the face of all of that, and

1160
01:10:09,720 --> 01:10:13,360
Speaker 5: they see the response that they're getting out of him,

1161
01:10:13,720 --> 01:10:17,280
Speaker 5: you know, the least among us, right, but they moved

1162
01:10:17,280 --> 01:10:20,360
Speaker 5: forward with this and thought that the best resolution to

1163
01:10:20,560 --> 01:10:25,479
Speaker 5: their problem was to take this young man's life and

1164
01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:28,559
Speaker 5: just kind of discard him like rubbish. So yeah, yeah,

1165
01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:31,200
Speaker 5: I'd say that, As I said, my dander got up

1166
01:10:31,240 --> 01:10:33,719
Speaker 5: over this. This was just one of the most callous

1167
01:10:33,720 --> 01:10:35,960
Speaker 5: cases I'm reading.

1168
01:10:36,160 --> 01:10:38,880
Speaker 4: I'm reading about this because you know, I just learned

1169
01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:42,920
Speaker 4: about this just now and there were apparently three kids

1170
01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:46,040
Speaker 4: in the home inside the residents at the time that

1171
01:10:46,120 --> 01:10:46,759
Speaker 4: this all went.

1172
01:10:46,640 --> 01:10:48,519
Speaker 3: Down, which is shocking.

1173
01:10:48,720 --> 01:10:54,280
Speaker 4: Injured. Yeah, and investigators learned about his involvement in this

1174
01:10:54,400 --> 01:11:00,000
Speaker 4: crime in a recorded phone call. Apparently the Jeremy abs

1175
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:02,479
Speaker 4: he's one of the cousins. He was in jail for

1176
01:11:02,560 --> 01:11:06,000
Speaker 4: something and he was on the phone and they were

1177
01:11:06,080 --> 01:11:08,760
Speaker 4: you know, they record all the phone calls, and he

1178
01:11:08,880 --> 01:11:12,480
Speaker 4: stated at that time it was that Goddess was the perpetrator,

1179
01:11:13,200 --> 01:11:18,840
Speaker 4: and then Gaddis apparently later he crashed a rental car

1180
01:11:19,120 --> 01:11:23,400
Speaker 4: that matched the description and I witness gave to police

1181
01:11:23,439 --> 01:11:27,880
Speaker 4: of suspicious vehicle they spotted near the victim's residence just

1182
01:11:27,960 --> 01:11:31,400
Speaker 4: moments before shooting. You know, this is the case, the

1183
01:11:31,439 --> 01:11:36,080
Speaker 4: broader case that the victim died for. It's very sad.

1184
01:11:37,000 --> 01:11:37,200
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1185
01:11:37,439 --> 01:11:43,479
Speaker 5: You know, Matthew, the victim, his mama was I wouldn't

1186
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:45,400
Speaker 5: know where he was, all right, Yeah.

1187
01:11:45,640 --> 01:11:45,840
Speaker 3: Sure.

1188
01:11:46,640 --> 01:11:50,000
Speaker 5: The cousins at one point in tom they alluded to

1189
01:11:50,040 --> 01:11:52,080
Speaker 5: the fact that he had fallen off of a cliff,

1190
01:11:52,120 --> 01:11:54,840
Speaker 5: but they didn't think They kind of stated they didn't

1191
01:11:54,880 --> 01:11:58,759
Speaker 5: really know anything else, and of course they apparently did

1192
01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:02,519
Speaker 5: so his mother was out, you know, feverishly as you

1193
01:12:02,520 --> 01:12:05,560
Speaker 5: can imagine any moment. She's looked for a baby. I

1194
01:12:05,560 --> 01:12:07,599
Speaker 5: don't care if he's an adult, still a baby, right,

1195
01:12:07,640 --> 01:12:10,080
Speaker 5: you want to know where he is, what's happened to him,

1196
01:12:10,479 --> 01:12:12,719
Speaker 5: and you know, she she goes for a protracted period

1197
01:12:12,720 --> 01:12:16,080
Speaker 5: of time with no answers whatsoever. And of course it

1198
01:12:16,160 --> 01:12:18,479
Speaker 5: winds up to be the most terrific thing that you

1199
01:12:18,520 --> 01:12:20,840
Speaker 5: could possibly ever experience as a parent.

1200
01:12:21,479 --> 01:12:23,160
Speaker 4: And they tortured this kid, right.

1201
01:12:23,880 --> 01:12:26,479
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that that was that was my feeling. What

1202
01:12:26,680 --> 01:12:32,080
Speaker 5: was really kind of I didn't really understand the rationale

1203
01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:36,120
Speaker 5: for it other than well, they're they're prolonging this scene

1204
01:12:36,160 --> 01:12:40,479
Speaker 5: because they're beating him, and then they compel him to

1205
01:12:40,680 --> 01:12:45,320
Speaker 5: bay after that, and I didn't really understand. You know,

1206
01:12:45,360 --> 01:12:47,760
Speaker 5: if it was a case of DNA or you know,

1207
01:12:47,800 --> 01:12:50,000
Speaker 5: you're leaving some kind of huge amount of trace evidence,

1208
01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:52,960
Speaker 5: I would understand, But what's the purpose at that point?

1209
01:12:53,000 --> 01:12:55,519
Speaker 5: He's still alive, but and they compelling to take a bath,

1210
01:12:55,600 --> 01:12:57,880
Speaker 5: then they're going to feed him, and then they you know,

1211
01:12:57,960 --> 01:13:01,760
Speaker 5: this perpetrator makes a threat, whispering in his ear right.

1212
01:13:02,280 --> 01:13:04,160
Speaker 4: This is you're listening to true crime tonight, We're on

1213
01:13:04,200 --> 01:13:08,479
Speaker 4: iHeartRadio and I'm here with Stephanie Leidecker and Courtney Armstrong

1214
01:13:08,520 --> 01:13:10,400
Speaker 4: and we are so lucky enough to be joined by

1215
01:13:10,479 --> 01:13:13,920
Speaker 4: Joseph Scott Morgan. He is a forensic death investigator, and

1216
01:13:13,960 --> 01:13:17,920
Speaker 4: we're talking about this just terrible case out of Pennsylvania

1217
01:13:18,360 --> 01:13:20,960
Speaker 4: where a young man was injected with fentanyl and thrown

1218
01:13:21,040 --> 01:13:23,519
Speaker 4: off a bridge. If you want to weigh in on

1219
01:13:23,560 --> 01:13:25,640
Speaker 4: this call or in this case, and you want to

1220
01:13:25,640 --> 01:13:27,800
Speaker 4: give us a call eighty eight thirty one Crime, we

1221
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:29,400
Speaker 4: would love to hear from you. This is just a

1222
01:13:29,479 --> 01:13:33,000
Speaker 4: terrible thing. Joseph, do you think I feel like the

1223
01:13:33,479 --> 01:13:37,680
Speaker 4: bathing is Here's what I think. I think they were

1224
01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:40,120
Speaker 4: obviously beating out of him what he told police.

1225
01:13:40,200 --> 01:13:40,439
Speaker 3: Right.

1226
01:13:41,040 --> 01:13:44,880
Speaker 4: The suspect in this case, he apparently was looking at

1227
01:13:44,880 --> 01:13:48,160
Speaker 4: the phone of the victim and realized he had been

1228
01:13:48,160 --> 01:13:51,160
Speaker 4: communicating with the police, and he's got to figure out,

1229
01:13:51,680 --> 01:13:52,880
Speaker 4: what did you tell the police?

1230
01:13:53,120 --> 01:13:54,400
Speaker 3: What do they know? Right?

1231
01:13:54,920 --> 01:13:59,639
Speaker 4: And I feel like the bathing and the feeding. First,

1232
01:13:59,760 --> 01:14:01,600
Speaker 4: I think the bathing is part of getting rid of

1233
01:14:01,680 --> 01:14:05,080
Speaker 4: DNA and things like that, right, But the feeding and whatnot,

1234
01:14:05,080 --> 01:14:07,519
Speaker 4: I feel like it's extending the torture. You're almost giving

1235
01:14:07,520 --> 01:14:10,760
Speaker 4: this kid hope that he's going to get you know,

1236
01:14:10,800 --> 01:14:16,000
Speaker 4: he's going to survive this, right, it's maybe buttering him

1237
01:14:16,080 --> 01:14:17,600
Speaker 4: up a little bit, like, hey, listen, it's going to

1238
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:19,679
Speaker 4: be okay. Just tell us what you told police. Here's

1239
01:14:19,680 --> 01:14:20,640
Speaker 4: some great food for you.

1240
01:14:21,760 --> 01:14:24,599
Speaker 6: I mean, I don't, I don't know. And listen, neither

1241
01:14:24,640 --> 01:14:28,920
Speaker 6: of us were there. Clearly, to me, it feels like

1242
01:14:29,240 --> 01:14:33,519
Speaker 6: just acts of degradation. If three people who've just beat

1243
01:14:33,600 --> 01:14:36,160
Speaker 6: me then said go ahead and have a bath, it's

1244
01:14:36,200 --> 01:14:38,640
Speaker 6: not going to be a relaxing time. It's going to

1245
01:14:38,720 --> 01:14:45,080
Speaker 6: be no terror filled were My understanding is that meth

1246
01:14:45,479 --> 01:14:48,000
Speaker 6: was involved in this scene?

1247
01:14:48,080 --> 01:14:48,360
Speaker 5: Is that?

1248
01:14:48,760 --> 01:14:54,880
Speaker 3: Does anyone else have knowledge of that? Surprised? Yeah, I

1249
01:14:54,880 --> 01:14:58,120
Speaker 3: would not be surprised. I mean, I just I don't.

1250
01:14:58,560 --> 01:15:01,240
Speaker 6: It's just hard to imagine how you can take something

1251
01:15:01,320 --> 01:15:04,280
Speaker 6: to that extreme level, especially given the fact that you

1252
01:15:04,439 --> 01:15:08,799
Speaker 6: have double the deadly weapon of two shots of fentanyl

1253
01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:11,519
Speaker 6: that could have just not just but not.

1254
01:15:11,720 --> 01:15:14,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, and here's the problem. If you're going to kind

1255
01:15:14,720 --> 01:15:17,280
Speaker 5: of underpin this because you know, I'm going to return

1256
01:15:17,320 --> 01:15:21,360
Speaker 5: to the forensics, obviously, that's truly my you know, I

1257
01:15:21,400 --> 01:15:23,439
Speaker 5: get I got to you guys, got to tell me

1258
01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:26,120
Speaker 5: to shut down relative to the impassioned part of this,

1259
01:15:26,240 --> 01:15:30,439
Speaker 5: if you go back to the forensics. Interestingly enough, one

1260
01:15:30,439 --> 01:15:32,120
Speaker 5: of the things that happens if you have a body

1261
01:15:32,120 --> 01:15:35,160
Speaker 5: that's in like an advanced state of decomposition. A lot

1262
01:15:35,160 --> 01:15:37,840
Speaker 5: of people don't realize that it's really hard to get

1263
01:15:37,920 --> 01:15:42,960
Speaker 5: sample off of bodies, uh the way we normally do. So.

1264
01:15:43,040 --> 01:15:46,719
Speaker 5: For instance, if you if you're trying to draw blood, okay,

1265
01:15:46,800 --> 01:15:51,599
Speaker 5: and you've got a body that's in in a in

1266
01:15:51,640 --> 01:15:55,080
Speaker 5: a an aquatic environment, it's been there for a protracted

1267
01:15:55,120 --> 01:15:59,160
Speaker 5: period of time, it's hot. Outside normal process of decomposition,

1268
01:15:59,280 --> 01:16:00,960
Speaker 5: you're not gonna be able to draw blood. So one

1269
01:16:01,000 --> 01:16:02,960
Speaker 5: of the things the steps that you have to go

1270
01:16:03,040 --> 01:16:07,799
Speaker 5: to is when we do the autopsy, will take sections

1271
01:16:07,840 --> 01:16:11,360
Speaker 5: of organs. And if you guys are familiar with what

1272
01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:16,720
Speaker 5: a centrifuge is, it spins around at a high rate

1273
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:20,559
Speaker 5: and you spin things down. So we take solid organs

1274
01:16:20,600 --> 01:16:23,439
Speaker 5: like liver, brain, those sorts of things, we spin them

1275
01:16:23,479 --> 01:16:26,880
Speaker 5: down and we liquifile. Now here's the interesting part. You

1276
01:16:26,920 --> 01:16:33,080
Speaker 5: cannot get a quantitative amount of a substance out of this.

1277
01:16:33,600 --> 01:16:36,920
Speaker 5: We can do a qualitative amount, So if you're looking

1278
01:16:36,960 --> 01:16:39,120
Speaker 5: at organ samples. This is kind of how we do it,

1279
01:16:39,160 --> 01:16:43,000
Speaker 5: just so folks know, when you spin it down, you

1280
01:16:43,040 --> 01:16:47,200
Speaker 5: can say definitively that, for instance, you've got fentanyl in

1281
01:16:47,280 --> 01:16:52,040
Speaker 5: the system, but we can't give you a lethal level necessarily.

1282
01:16:52,320 --> 01:16:56,200
Speaker 5: Now that applies kind of across the board with advanced decomposition.

1283
01:16:57,800 --> 01:17:01,840
Speaker 5: And so that's why, like, if you're a lot of

1284
01:17:01,880 --> 01:17:04,599
Speaker 5: the testimonial evidence that you have in this case, we

1285
01:17:04,840 --> 01:17:07,000
Speaker 5: know he did this, we saw him do this, we

1286
01:17:07,080 --> 01:17:10,400
Speaker 5: heard him say this. That plays more into this case

1287
01:17:10,439 --> 01:17:14,200
Speaker 5: and would push this individual into a situation where he's

1288
01:17:14,240 --> 01:17:16,240
Speaker 5: going to buckle. He's going to have because you're not

1289
01:17:16,280 --> 01:17:18,639
Speaker 5: going to be able to come back. They can say yet, well,

1290
01:17:18,680 --> 01:17:21,360
Speaker 5: look he had fentonoyl and system, but we can't actually

1291
01:17:21,400 --> 01:17:24,680
Speaker 5: say that it's a lethal dosage because you can't quantify it,

1292
01:17:25,280 --> 01:17:29,519
Speaker 5: you know, And that's one of the challenges you're faced with,

1293
01:17:29,840 --> 01:17:31,840
Speaker 5: you know, when you're working a case like this, you

1294
01:17:31,920 --> 01:17:36,720
Speaker 5: couple that with the blunt coarse trauma, which may or

1295
01:17:36,800 --> 01:17:39,479
Speaker 5: may not still be there. It's really hard to read

1296
01:17:39,640 --> 01:17:41,600
Speaker 5: on a body that might be in a moderate to

1297
01:17:41,680 --> 01:17:45,760
Speaker 5: advanced state of decomposition unless there's underlying fractures. You know

1298
01:17:45,800 --> 01:17:47,960
Speaker 5: that you can appreciate on any of the bony structures

1299
01:17:48,000 --> 01:17:50,519
Speaker 5: of the skull, the arms or anything like that, you

1300
01:17:50,560 --> 01:17:53,400
Speaker 5: can say, yes, this was fractured, but you know, as

1301
01:17:53,439 --> 01:17:55,760
Speaker 5: far as like bruising, contusions, the sorts of things that

1302
01:17:55,800 --> 01:17:58,160
Speaker 5: we look at, you know, that's very hard to ascertain

1303
01:17:58,240 --> 01:18:00,720
Speaker 5: as well. Well.

1304
01:18:00,840 --> 01:18:03,160
Speaker 3: Thank you for the clarification, Joseph.

1305
01:18:03,200 --> 01:18:07,720
Speaker 6: And again, Stephen Gaddis has been sentenced. That happened on

1306
01:18:07,760 --> 01:18:13,280
Speaker 6: April first, and the accomplices, the two cousins, remain pending trial.

1307
01:18:13,880 --> 01:18:17,759
Speaker 6: Jeremy Abster is scheduled to return in court April twenty third,

1308
01:18:19,000 --> 01:18:22,880
Speaker 6: and the victim's mother read a statement and said, there

1309
01:18:22,880 --> 01:18:25,679
Speaker 6: will always be a hole in our family. You stole

1310
01:18:25,760 --> 01:18:28,360
Speaker 6: the opportunity to grow old together. So I just wanted

1311
01:18:28,400 --> 01:18:34,080
Speaker 6: to give voice to that. I know, and also also sad,

1312
01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:39,519
Speaker 6: Joseph is that it's about time for you to leave us.

1313
01:18:39,960 --> 01:18:43,080
Speaker 5: Yes, son, Nate quick, I feel like I just sat down.

1314
01:18:43,640 --> 01:18:48,000
Speaker 6: I know you regalous with the dan we learned so much,

1315
01:18:48,240 --> 01:18:51,479
Speaker 6: but yes, yeah, so thank you, thank you so much

1316
01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:52,679
Speaker 6: for joining us, Joseph.

1317
01:18:52,760 --> 01:18:55,559
Speaker 4: Anyone interested in more true crime forensics neat dives you

1318
01:18:55,600 --> 01:18:59,400
Speaker 4: can find them on Joseph Amazing hit podcast, body Bags,

1319
01:18:59,400 --> 01:19:01,639
Speaker 4: and you can also find him on YouTube now at

1320
01:19:01,760 --> 01:19:04,639
Speaker 4: Joseph Scott Morgan and his channel is called body Bags

1321
01:19:04,640 --> 01:19:07,280
Speaker 4: with Joseph Scott Morgan. Keep it right here a True

1322
01:19:07,320 --> 01:19:12,920
Speaker 4: Crime Tonight. We're going to be doing some talkbacks.

1323
01:19:18,800 --> 01:19:21,719
Speaker 2: Welcome back to true Crime tonight and iHeartRadio. We're talking

1324
01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:24,960
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. Did my voice just crack

1325
01:19:25,000 --> 01:19:25,680
Speaker 2: a little bit there?

1326
01:19:26,880 --> 01:19:29,120
Speaker 3: A little bit? My puberty is kicking in.

1327
01:19:30,000 --> 01:19:32,519
Speaker 2: I'm Stephanie and I'm here with Courtney and Body and

1328
01:19:32,560 --> 01:19:34,599
Speaker 2: we also have Gabe with us tonight.

1329
01:19:35,600 --> 01:19:37,800
Speaker 3: You guys normally don't get access.

1330
01:19:37,400 --> 01:19:39,680
Speaker 2: To I get the benefit of working with Gabe all

1331
01:19:39,800 --> 01:19:44,200
Speaker 2: day and he was such a huge part of launching

1332
01:19:44,240 --> 01:19:47,920
Speaker 2: this project and the year to get it up and going.

1333
01:19:48,120 --> 01:19:49,679
Speaker 3: Gabe was the frontman.

1334
01:19:50,080 --> 01:19:55,040
Speaker 2: And listen now he's essentially ditched us at night because

1335
01:19:55,120 --> 01:19:57,760
Speaker 2: you know, Ava and Taha have taken the reins, but

1336
01:19:58,040 --> 01:20:02,320
Speaker 2: tonight we have Gabe's the face here and Gabe, We've

1337
01:20:02,320 --> 01:20:05,720
Speaker 2: gotten a lot of questions about you specifically, so court

1338
01:20:05,800 --> 01:20:07,840
Speaker 2: did you have a burning question that you wanted to

1339
01:20:07,880 --> 01:20:08,960
Speaker 2: interview Gabe about.

1340
01:20:09,720 --> 01:20:12,400
Speaker 3: I have many sons.

1341
01:20:12,680 --> 01:20:16,640
Speaker 6: Yes, it cannot be overstated what Stephanie said just a

1342
01:20:17,160 --> 01:20:22,480
Speaker 6: pillar of responsibility and calm and pushing things.

1343
01:20:22,200 --> 01:20:23,559
Speaker 3: Forward, all things good.

1344
01:20:24,240 --> 01:20:29,120
Speaker 6: So, Gabe, what, in all of the time you've been

1345
01:20:29,160 --> 01:20:34,720
Speaker 6: working at KAT, what have you learned either about yourself

1346
01:20:35,000 --> 01:20:38,519
Speaker 6: or you know, just stuff in general through the lens

1347
01:20:38,520 --> 01:20:39,200
Speaker 6: of true crime.

1348
01:20:43,040 --> 01:20:47,720
Speaker 8: Oh that's a great loaded question going in there. I

1349
01:20:47,760 --> 01:20:54,160
Speaker 8: think a huge takeaway that I have learned is in

1350
01:20:54,720 --> 01:20:57,280
Speaker 8: working in true him stuff is that and I hear

1351
01:20:57,320 --> 01:21:00,920
Speaker 8: it and I've learned is that panic does not create

1352
01:21:01,000 --> 01:21:07,519
Speaker 8: more time. So you know, always when things seem to

1353
01:21:07,600 --> 01:21:10,600
Speaker 8: be kind of rushing, I think, you know, just taking

1354
01:21:10,640 --> 01:21:14,439
Speaker 8: a step back, looking at the base and kind of

1355
01:21:14,640 --> 01:21:17,720
Speaker 8: start building up. I think it was a huge thing

1356
01:21:17,760 --> 01:21:19,519
Speaker 8: because in the very beginning, I would be you know,

1357
01:21:19,680 --> 01:21:20,599
Speaker 8: it's the end of the world.

1358
01:21:21,160 --> 01:21:24,920
Speaker 3: This is it, Like every ten minutes when think about.

1359
01:21:25,000 --> 01:21:26,640
Speaker 8: Every ten minutes, I'm getting fired.

1360
01:21:29,240 --> 01:21:29,639
Speaker 3: By the way.

1361
01:21:29,680 --> 01:21:31,680
Speaker 2: He's been promoted a bunch because he's so big and

1362
01:21:31,680 --> 01:21:33,800
Speaker 2: smart and he's done so many great things. Gab is

1363
01:21:33,800 --> 01:21:37,439
Speaker 2: the one that every single person in every department is

1364
01:21:37,479 --> 01:21:41,519
Speaker 2: always wishing they had Gabe full time. So if we're

1365
01:21:41,520 --> 01:21:47,360
Speaker 2: making a documentary and Brian Coberger, for example, confesses, you know,

1366
01:21:47,600 --> 01:21:50,800
Speaker 2: while we're shooting and it changes the entire course of

1367
01:21:51,040 --> 01:21:53,559
Speaker 2: the documentary and we have to air it now in

1368
01:21:53,640 --> 01:21:57,200
Speaker 2: twenty four hours. Gabs the front man living it with

1369
01:21:57,240 --> 01:22:00,240
Speaker 2: me real time, and I can't tell you many times

1370
01:22:00,240 --> 01:22:02,040
Speaker 2: we're like, oh, Gabe, can you get on the plane

1371
01:22:02,080 --> 01:22:05,639
Speaker 2: and handle that? Like he just sort of has this

1372
01:22:06,120 --> 01:22:11,879
Speaker 2: calm way of really just rising to the moment without

1373
01:22:12,000 --> 01:22:15,439
Speaker 2: getting absorbed by the moment, because sometimes, you know, stuff's

1374
01:22:15,439 --> 01:22:18,679
Speaker 2: always kind of hitting the fans, right there's breaking news.

1375
01:22:18,800 --> 01:22:21,400
Speaker 2: You've been working on something for weeks and then suddenly

1376
01:22:21,479 --> 01:22:25,000
Speaker 2: it's completely out the window because there's been some other

1377
01:22:25,160 --> 01:22:28,280
Speaker 2: crazy break in a case. And Gabe really a very

1378
01:22:28,320 --> 01:22:32,080
Speaker 2: wide eye, jumped right in and has really rose to

1379
01:22:32,120 --> 01:22:32,719
Speaker 2: the occasion.

1380
01:22:35,320 --> 01:22:37,600
Speaker 8: I don't do this alone. I will say that, you

1381
01:22:37,600 --> 01:22:40,400
Speaker 8: know I do. I feel like I am very uplifted

1382
01:22:40,479 --> 01:22:43,719
Speaker 8: by everyone around me, and I think it's just been

1383
01:22:44,120 --> 01:22:49,360
Speaker 8: a very huge wave of support bouncing off of one another.

1384
01:22:49,400 --> 01:22:52,679
Speaker 8: Then I think, you know, it's never really a bad day.

1385
01:22:52,720 --> 01:22:54,840
Speaker 8: I think I think it's you know, it's one of

1386
01:22:54,840 --> 01:22:58,120
Speaker 8: those times where I'm fine picking up the phone at

1387
01:22:58,160 --> 01:23:00,720
Speaker 8: ten o'clock at night for this job. You know where

1388
01:23:01,360 --> 01:23:06,519
Speaker 8: answer job it won't be the same, and it's you know.

1389
01:23:06,640 --> 01:23:10,200
Speaker 8: It's another thing too that I will also praise on

1390
01:23:10,439 --> 01:23:13,559
Speaker 8: Stephanie and on the company Kat is that I think

1391
01:23:14,520 --> 01:23:17,559
Speaker 8: the values of working here. I think, you know, even

1392
01:23:17,680 --> 01:23:21,000
Speaker 8: I can you know once I was like, you know,

1393
01:23:21,000 --> 01:23:23,479
Speaker 8: I'm going to celebrate my moment's birthday, and all of

1394
01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:26,439
Speaker 8: a sudden, Steph is just, you know, stop what you're doing,

1395
01:23:26,479 --> 01:23:28,760
Speaker 8: Take the day off, you know that kind of thing,

1396
01:23:28,800 --> 01:23:30,880
Speaker 8: Go be with your mom. I think it's those living

1397
01:23:30,920 --> 01:23:34,439
Speaker 8: moments that that I'm able to cherish, that are not

1398
01:23:34,520 --> 01:23:37,880
Speaker 8: taking it for granted. You know that, I think really

1399
01:23:38,040 --> 01:23:41,880
Speaker 8: just helped me come in the next day with a

1400
01:23:41,960 --> 01:23:46,320
Speaker 8: giant smile. Was one we'll say, I think, and I

1401
01:23:46,400 --> 01:23:48,680
Speaker 8: think that. I think that's what really makes this a

1402
01:23:48,720 --> 01:23:51,320
Speaker 8: really fun job. And I have fun doing it, and

1403
01:23:51,360 --> 01:23:52,840
Speaker 8: I love doing it, and I want to keep on

1404
01:23:52,920 --> 01:23:55,040
Speaker 8: doing it for as long as I could, because I

1405
01:23:55,080 --> 01:23:57,000
Speaker 8: am done waiting tables at all.

1406
01:23:57,120 --> 01:24:02,080
Speaker 3: Gunden so I gave that was Courtney's big interview.

1407
01:24:03,520 --> 01:24:05,880
Speaker 6: I was gonna say, if we can go back, and

1408
01:24:06,080 --> 01:24:08,599
Speaker 6: you are young, you are so wise, but you are

1409
01:24:08,680 --> 01:24:12,559
Speaker 6: you are young in years and speaking of waiting tables,

1410
01:24:12,560 --> 01:24:16,960
Speaker 6: that's exactly you had freshly come out of college when

1411
01:24:17,080 --> 01:24:21,080
Speaker 6: Stephanie and I first met you, is this, yeah at

1412
01:24:21,120 --> 01:24:22,559
Speaker 6: all what you thought you'd be doing.

1413
01:24:24,800 --> 01:24:28,080
Speaker 8: No, they don't teach you this in school, you know,

1414
01:24:28,320 --> 01:24:30,599
Speaker 8: at school where they're like you either want to write,

1415
01:24:30,680 --> 01:24:33,240
Speaker 8: you want to direct, or you want to do this.

1416
01:24:33,400 --> 01:24:36,600
Speaker 8: You know. I don't think they did not teach to

1417
01:24:37,600 --> 01:24:39,920
Speaker 8: you know. There's all these little jobs. There's all these

1418
01:24:39,920 --> 01:24:43,880
Speaker 8: little things that happen in between that really make it.

1419
01:24:43,920 --> 01:24:45,720
Speaker 8: And I think the huge part of it is you're

1420
01:24:45,720 --> 01:24:47,759
Speaker 8: always working in a team and you're always meeting people,

1421
01:24:47,800 --> 01:24:53,000
Speaker 8: and I think, you know, always you know, having people

1422
01:24:53,040 --> 01:24:55,920
Speaker 8: come in and people come out. It's it's been very

1423
01:24:56,000 --> 01:24:58,080
Speaker 8: I've been very thankful, I think to meet a lot

1424
01:24:58,120 --> 01:25:01,000
Speaker 8: of people along the way. Body who you know, I

1425
01:25:01,000 --> 01:25:02,960
Speaker 8: think one of our very first conversations, even though we've

1426
01:25:03,000 --> 01:25:06,000
Speaker 8: never met face to face, from True Crimes to the

1427
01:25:06,040 --> 01:25:10,680
Speaker 8: podcast to now is kind of you know, there's relationships

1428
01:25:10,680 --> 01:25:14,559
Speaker 8: in those buildings like Body. I sometimes I'm like, yeah,

1429
01:25:14,640 --> 01:25:16,160
Speaker 8: you can don't up with cats. I'm like, yeah, I

1430
01:25:17,439 --> 01:25:17,760
Speaker 8: know her.

1431
01:25:17,880 --> 01:25:24,040
Speaker 3: I'm Gays where all the bodies are buried too. Gabe

1432
01:25:24,080 --> 01:25:24,639
Speaker 3: knows it all.

1433
01:25:25,160 --> 01:25:30,080
Speaker 2: He knows every department, every person, every secret, every deal,

1434
01:25:30,200 --> 01:25:32,400
Speaker 2: and by the way, you have to have very specific manner.

1435
01:25:32,439 --> 01:25:36,839
Speaker 2: You're talking with people and interviewing people at very sacred

1436
01:25:36,920 --> 01:25:40,040
Speaker 2: critical times in their lives. That's not an easy thing.

1437
01:25:40,360 --> 01:25:44,720
Speaker 2: And you know, Courtney met Gabe first. First of all,

1438
01:25:44,800 --> 01:25:47,080
Speaker 2: I you know, I like everybody. So Courtney kind of

1439
01:25:47,080 --> 01:25:49,920
Speaker 2: cut me off of doing Tier one interviews.

1440
01:25:49,280 --> 01:25:51,400
Speaker 3: Because I hired like one hundred and fifty people the

1441
01:25:51,439 --> 01:25:53,120
Speaker 3: first day, practically on the spot.

1442
01:25:53,280 --> 01:25:57,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm like, you seem great, you know, So I

1443
01:25:57,560 --> 01:26:00,960
Speaker 2: Courtney was like, I'm taking this over and you can

1444
01:26:01,000 --> 01:26:03,479
Speaker 2: come for the second in the last round. So and

1445
01:26:03,600 --> 01:26:06,000
Speaker 2: sure enough she did, and she was running a pretty

1446
01:26:06,000 --> 01:26:09,120
Speaker 2: tight ship. We know, Courtney. She went from two hundred

1447
01:26:09,160 --> 01:26:12,040
Speaker 2: to twelve and then there was finals, and you know,

1448
01:26:12,120 --> 01:26:14,080
Speaker 2: I was brought into the finals. It was like being

1449
01:26:14,080 --> 01:26:17,240
Speaker 2: on American Idol, and Gabe was the standout from jump.

1450
01:26:17,280 --> 01:26:20,880
Speaker 2: There was no question he was an undeniable superstar. He

1451
01:26:20,960 --> 01:26:23,040
Speaker 2: comes in, We're like, Gabe, we don't expect you to

1452
01:26:23,080 --> 01:26:25,920
Speaker 2: know anything other than be kind and be quick, and

1453
01:26:26,240 --> 01:26:29,120
Speaker 2: he just kicked the door down and we started in

1454
01:26:29,240 --> 01:26:32,599
Speaker 2: all departments. He's excellent. And he also edits a lot

1455
01:26:32,600 --> 01:26:36,680
Speaker 2: of stuff, so really all the things Gabe were so

1456
01:26:36,760 --> 01:26:39,080
Speaker 2: happy to have you, and the machine would not work

1457
01:26:39,120 --> 01:26:39,519
Speaker 2: without you.

1458
01:26:41,360 --> 01:26:44,559
Speaker 8: Oh, I appreciate it. I love each and every one

1459
01:26:44,600 --> 01:26:47,720
Speaker 8: of you guys. So this is yeah, it's so cooing.

1460
01:26:49,280 --> 01:26:50,679
Speaker 8: I don't think this is a stoutick.

1461
01:26:51,120 --> 01:26:53,680
Speaker 3: Yes, who's your favorite?

1462
01:26:54,160 --> 01:26:58,720
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, that was going to be my question now, Gabe,

1463
01:26:58,840 --> 01:27:01,040
Speaker 2: we none of us are going to be upset with you.

1464
01:27:03,439 --> 01:27:06,679
Speaker 2: It's okay. You can say Body and Courtney. It's fine,

1465
01:27:07,439 --> 01:27:08,360
Speaker 2: I'll know the truth.

1466
01:27:08,479 --> 01:27:12,040
Speaker 3: I'm kidding you're my favorite. It's definitely Tom.

1467
01:27:16,600 --> 01:27:18,559
Speaker 6: I am going to take you off the hook game

1468
01:27:18,800 --> 01:27:20,760
Speaker 6: for the best and worst question ever.

1469
01:27:20,800 --> 01:27:26,800
Speaker 3: Who's your favorite? But rapid fire? First celebrity crush?

1470
01:27:27,800 --> 01:27:29,000
Speaker 8: Oh Selena Gomez?

1471
01:27:29,720 --> 01:27:32,160
Speaker 6: Yes, oh okay, yeah, I was In fact, I love

1472
01:27:32,240 --> 01:27:34,800
Speaker 6: her coffee or tea.

1473
01:27:36,200 --> 01:27:40,439
Speaker 3: Coffee mm hmm, that's right, morning person or night.

1474
01:27:40,320 --> 01:27:45,599
Speaker 8: Owl night owl. I'm running on as a sleep right now.

1475
01:27:45,560 --> 01:27:48,479
Speaker 8: I'm actually all night or so.

1476
01:27:48,160 --> 01:27:49,200
Speaker 3: That glows up all night.

1477
01:27:49,280 --> 01:27:52,360
Speaker 2: This one goes on very little sleep. And by the way,

1478
01:27:52,520 --> 01:27:53,880
Speaker 2: this is why I had to cut him off of

1479
01:27:53,960 --> 01:27:57,160
Speaker 2: True Crime tonight because we start very early and Gabe

1480
01:27:57,200 --> 01:27:59,479
Speaker 2: is like, oh, no problem, I'm just doing you know,

1481
01:27:59,680 --> 01:28:01,920
Speaker 2: while hours and I'm like, Gabe, you you cannot be

1482
01:28:02,040 --> 01:28:05,519
Speaker 2: doing that period. I wish I could say he was

1483
01:28:05,560 --> 01:28:07,800
Speaker 2: out and about dancing on tables at the nightclubs.

1484
01:28:07,840 --> 01:28:09,719
Speaker 3: But you know, he works very, very hard.

1485
01:28:10,040 --> 01:28:12,000
Speaker 2: One of these days, I'll be so excited when he

1486
01:28:12,040 --> 01:28:15,000
Speaker 2: comes rolling into work just you know, with a lampshade

1487
01:28:15,040 --> 01:28:16,960
Speaker 2: on his head because he's been out all night region.

1488
01:28:18,080 --> 01:28:19,920
Speaker 3: But you know, there's too much work.

1489
01:28:21,360 --> 01:28:22,759
Speaker 8: Those camera off days.

1490
01:28:23,360 --> 01:28:30,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's hilarious exactly. I think the interview

1491
01:28:30,680 --> 01:28:34,720
Speaker 3: is who else has any hard hitting questions for Gabe or.

1492
01:28:36,200 --> 01:28:39,120
Speaker 2: My only is more of an observation is just that

1493
01:28:39,200 --> 01:28:42,880
Speaker 2: Gabe's family should be so proud of them, proud of him,

1494
01:28:42,920 --> 01:28:45,639
Speaker 2: I should say, because they've done a really amazing job.

1495
01:28:45,800 --> 01:28:49,040
Speaker 2: And Gabe, we're so grateful for you. So do you

1496
01:28:49,040 --> 01:28:51,519
Speaker 2: have any burning questions? Just call us and tell us.

1497
01:28:55,479 --> 01:28:57,080
Speaker 2: Do you guys want to go to a talkback?

1498
01:28:57,640 --> 01:28:57,720
Speaker 9: Ye?

1499
01:28:58,080 --> 01:28:58,679
Speaker 5: A talkback?

1500
01:28:59,400 --> 01:29:01,639
Speaker 4: Yes, Gabe, he just threw to his first talk back.

1501
01:29:02,720 --> 01:29:06,120
Speaker 9: Just had a contribution here for the Blake Lively case.

1502
01:29:06,479 --> 01:29:10,840
Speaker 9: There are intimacy coordinators that work on sets. As I

1503
01:29:11,000 --> 01:29:13,800
Speaker 9: understand it, first thing I did was look to see

1504
01:29:13,800 --> 01:29:17,160
Speaker 9: whether or not this movie had hired one, and there was,

1505
01:29:17,439 --> 01:29:22,559
Speaker 9: So there is somebody that's supposedly directing specifically these intimate scenes,

1506
01:29:22,600 --> 01:29:26,000
Speaker 9: which it's what I understand Blake is upset about.

1507
01:29:27,280 --> 01:29:31,360
Speaker 2: Which is interesting, by the way, great question, very astute.

1508
01:29:31,880 --> 01:29:34,600
Speaker 2: My understanding is that there was in fact an intimacy

1509
01:29:34,600 --> 01:29:37,759
Speaker 2: coordinator hired, which, by the way, what an interesting weird

1510
01:29:37,840 --> 01:29:41,040
Speaker 2: job that is. But nonetheless, and if you're not familiar

1511
01:29:41,080 --> 01:29:44,280
Speaker 2: with what that is, you know, love scenes, sex scenes

1512
01:29:44,320 --> 01:29:48,240
Speaker 2: in movies, it's very performative, it's very orchestrated. It's like

1513
01:29:48,240 --> 01:29:53,080
Speaker 2: a dance performance. So they have these intimacy coordinators who basically,

1514
01:29:53,520 --> 01:29:56,719
Speaker 2: you know, practice with you pre games so that it's

1515
01:29:56,760 --> 01:29:59,839
Speaker 2: actually not any skin on skin. It's really just for camera,

1516
01:30:00,400 --> 01:30:05,240
Speaker 2: so that everybody feels safe and secure and not you know,

1517
01:30:05,520 --> 01:30:09,000
Speaker 2: in a situation that makes anyone feel violated or uncomfortable.

1518
01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:12,680
Speaker 4: I think Blake Lively refused.

1519
01:30:12,120 --> 01:30:17,320
Speaker 2: The refused the coordinator, the intimacy coordinator.

1520
01:30:17,720 --> 01:30:21,519
Speaker 6: You know, that is my recollection as well. I'm trying

1521
01:30:21,520 --> 01:30:25,720
Speaker 6: to fact check myself, but that's absolutely my recollection. And

1522
01:30:25,840 --> 01:30:30,960
Speaker 6: then you know, kind of disallowed them to do their job,

1523
01:30:31,040 --> 01:30:34,480
Speaker 6: but then also complain that it didn't happen, is my recollection.

1524
01:30:35,120 --> 01:30:38,000
Speaker 2: And then didn't she Blake Lively herself said that she

1525
01:30:38,200 --> 01:30:42,680
Speaker 2: was ultimately the intimacy coordinator because she basically choreographed all

1526
01:30:42,760 --> 01:30:45,519
Speaker 2: of these said scenes, or at least some of them.

1527
01:30:45,880 --> 01:30:47,880
Speaker 3: So I think that's the double edged sword.

1528
01:30:47,880 --> 01:30:51,559
Speaker 2: On the one hand, Blake Lively is coming in as

1529
01:30:52,160 --> 01:30:54,920
Speaker 2: somebody who was a work for hire as an actor

1530
01:30:55,080 --> 01:30:58,120
Speaker 2: who feels as though the environment wasn't safe for her

1531
01:30:58,160 --> 01:31:01,040
Speaker 2: as a young mother returning to the workplace, that she

1532
01:31:01,160 --> 01:31:06,200
Speaker 2: didn't feel that she was appropriately cared for for lack

1533
01:31:06,240 --> 01:31:09,160
Speaker 2: of a better term. That's one way of looking at it.

1534
01:31:09,200 --> 01:31:11,639
Speaker 2: And then the other side of it is she kind

1535
01:31:11,680 --> 01:31:14,439
Speaker 2: of came in and took a big role in this

1536
01:31:14,520 --> 01:31:18,600
Speaker 2: film and took over the music, and took over the wardrobe,

1537
01:31:18,640 --> 01:31:22,679
Speaker 2: but took over the writing apparently with Ryan Reynolds, her husband.

1538
01:31:23,360 --> 01:31:26,639
Speaker 2: So it is also like a heavy hitter in all

1539
01:31:26,680 --> 01:31:28,719
Speaker 2: of this and choreographed these scenes.

1540
01:31:28,800 --> 01:31:30,559
Speaker 3: So was she the boss?

1541
01:31:31,200 --> 01:31:34,400
Speaker 2: And if so, is that a different set of circumstances

1542
01:31:34,560 --> 01:31:36,639
Speaker 2: than if you were the work for hire?

1543
01:31:37,120 --> 01:31:38,599
Speaker 3: I think is the nuance here?

1544
01:31:38,640 --> 01:31:41,559
Speaker 2: And this is a complicated one and it stresses me

1545
01:31:41,640 --> 01:31:42,599
Speaker 2: out because I'm.

1546
01:31:42,439 --> 01:31:44,759
Speaker 3: So pro victim.

1547
01:31:45,360 --> 01:31:48,439
Speaker 2: And if it's if it's in any way exaggerated, that

1548
01:31:48,439 --> 01:31:50,920
Speaker 2: does such a bad thing for victims and other women.

1549
01:31:51,040 --> 01:31:52,360
Speaker 3: It makes it tough for all of us.

1550
01:31:52,960 --> 01:31:55,240
Speaker 2: And on the flip of that, if Blake is not

1551
01:31:55,360 --> 01:31:58,519
Speaker 2: being taken seriously and she was in fact put in

1552
01:31:58,560 --> 01:32:01,520
Speaker 2: a difficult situation where she was unsafe in the workplace,

1553
01:32:01,880 --> 01:32:04,760
Speaker 2: that's not okay too. And it's like there's been so

1554
01:32:04,880 --> 01:32:08,160
Speaker 2: much money thrown at this well and so much slander

1555
01:32:08,200 --> 01:32:10,160
Speaker 2: thrown at this that it's really hard to see through

1556
01:32:10,200 --> 01:32:10,679
Speaker 2: the weeds.

1557
01:32:11,320 --> 01:32:13,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, and we haven't really seen any evidence yet, right,

1558
01:32:13,840 --> 01:32:17,800
Speaker 4: Like it presented evidence, right, So until we can see

1559
01:32:17,800 --> 01:32:21,320
Speaker 4: the evidence, it's all just like gossip right now, I

1560
01:32:21,360 --> 01:32:22,240
Speaker 4: feel exactly.

1561
01:32:22,800 --> 01:32:25,120
Speaker 2: And there has been a lot of promise of evidence

1562
01:32:25,160 --> 01:32:31,640
Speaker 2: which hasn't really come forward, And yeah, exactly. And you know,

1563
01:32:31,680 --> 01:32:36,519
Speaker 2: the argument would be, is one couple's fame and power

1564
01:32:37,320 --> 01:32:39,760
Speaker 2: in Hollywood, And in that case it would be Blake

1565
01:32:39,840 --> 01:32:43,320
Speaker 2: Lively and Ryan Reynolds and there, you know, said big

1566
01:32:43,800 --> 01:32:47,320
Speaker 2: group of friends that obviously have a lot of power themselves,

1567
01:32:47,360 --> 01:32:51,320
Speaker 2: Taylor Swift being one of them. Is is that enough

1568
01:32:51,479 --> 01:32:55,680
Speaker 2: to kind of bully your way through the system or

1569
01:32:56,120 --> 01:32:59,599
Speaker 2: were they just the victims from a creepy guy who

1570
01:33:00,200 --> 01:33:01,880
Speaker 2: didn't know how to be appropriate on.

1571
01:33:01,920 --> 01:33:08,439
Speaker 6: Set well, just circling back to the talkback question and

1572
01:33:08,479 --> 01:33:11,120
Speaker 6: thank you Gabe for finding the facts as always.

1573
01:33:11,200 --> 01:33:13,719
Speaker 3: So it was actually.

1574
01:33:14,720 --> 01:33:18,439
Speaker 6: Justin Baldoni did a legend court that Lively did indeed

1575
01:33:18,520 --> 01:33:23,200
Speaker 6: reject all of the intimacy coordinator's proposals, also declined to

1576
01:33:23,439 --> 01:33:28,800
Speaker 6: meet with the expert and force the intimacy coordinator to

1577
01:33:29,120 --> 01:33:32,400
Speaker 6: relay notes, which was not an ideal position.

1578
01:33:32,600 --> 01:33:36,160
Speaker 2: So that's the allegation, and I think he has text

1579
01:33:36,400 --> 01:33:39,360
Speaker 2: messages to support that. So there does seem to be

1580
01:33:39,400 --> 01:33:41,040
Speaker 2: a lot of back and forth, like we talked about

1581
01:33:41,120 --> 01:33:43,559
Speaker 2: last night. On the one hand, she's saying, hey, look,

1582
01:33:44,320 --> 01:33:46,600
Speaker 2: I'm breastfreeding right now, I kind of want to be

1583
01:33:46,640 --> 01:33:50,799
Speaker 2: by myself. And on the other time, maybe she invited

1584
01:33:50,880 --> 01:33:54,960
Speaker 2: him in to come into her dressing room while she

1585
01:33:55,120 --> 01:33:58,439
Speaker 2: was breastfeeding. And to Courtney's point last night, a woman's

1586
01:33:58,439 --> 01:34:01,160
Speaker 2: allowed to change her mind based on the day and

1587
01:34:01,200 --> 01:34:04,200
Speaker 2: based on the scenario, and I think that's an important

1588
01:34:04,200 --> 01:34:07,040
Speaker 2: piece of this conversation too. So ultimately we don't know

1589
01:34:07,560 --> 01:34:10,360
Speaker 2: what happened. I don't know who the who the bad

1590
01:34:10,400 --> 01:34:12,800
Speaker 2: guy is in this scenario, because.

1591
01:34:12,600 --> 01:34:15,519
Speaker 3: Can I blake and I think they can't be that

1592
01:34:16,400 --> 01:34:20,799
Speaker 3: No add into the list. Oh my god, oh please,

1593
01:34:21,640 --> 01:34:27,160
Speaker 3: who's calling? Blake is calling Blake Lively is called me

1594
01:34:27,240 --> 01:34:31,200
Speaker 3: a line to dragons. We're never gonna work again.

1595
01:34:31,320 --> 01:34:33,400
Speaker 2: But you know, look, that would really bum me out

1596
01:34:33,439 --> 01:34:38,160
Speaker 2: because again it's another another two celebrities that I worshiped.

1597
01:34:37,640 --> 01:34:43,479
Speaker 3: And I loved that. Maybe are are not all that anyway.

1598
01:34:43,560 --> 01:34:46,200
Speaker 2: So we'll find out more tomorrow from Jarrett Farantino when

1599
01:34:46,200 --> 01:34:50,640
Speaker 2: he joins us our most favorite prosecutor, because look, the

1600
01:34:50,640 --> 01:34:54,080
Speaker 2: Long Island serial killer may in fact lead out tomorrow.

1601
01:34:54,439 --> 01:34:58,040
Speaker 3: Obviously we'll be covering that very closely. Thank you Joseph.

1602
01:34:57,840 --> 01:35:00,000
Speaker 2: Scott Morgan for being with us tonight, and of course

1603
01:35:00,160 --> 01:35:01,200
Speaker 2: Gabe and Ava.

1604
01:35:01,920 --> 01:35:04,599
Speaker 3: We love you guys. Stay safe. Thank you for listening.