WEBVTT - The Gila Monster, Part 1 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:06.760 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:15.520 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:16.120 is Robert. 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:18.200 Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:22.200 In this episode and suffsequent episodes of Stuff to Blow 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:24.319 Your Mind, we are going to be talking about the 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:27.280 HeLa Monster. I don't know about you, Joe, but the 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:31.360 HeLa monster has long been one of my favorite herbs, 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:35.080 in part clearly because it's the only it was, I think, 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:38.080 at least growing up, the only natural world animal for 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:42.320 me officially labeled as a monster. So that's certainly connected 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:45.320 with me as a kid. I mean, you had Cookie Monster, 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:49.640 you had the HeLa Monster, So there is a natural 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:52.239 attraction there, though there to be clear, as we'll be discussing, 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:54.160 there are plenty of other reasons to love these. 0:00:54.040 --> 0:01:00.360 Creatures definitely attractive and also includes some hidden monstrous It's 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:02.600 like there are some of the things that might make 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:06.960 it the most monstrous are things that you wouldn't see 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:09.640 just looking at a picture of the lizard taken in 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:13.560 nature and like a National geographic magazine. One of the 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:16.240 most monstrous things about it, not to skip too far ahead, 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:19.800 is the way like its bones look or its skull 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:23.720 looks if you don't have all the cute, kind of fleshy, 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:27.760 pudgy scan around it that. I'm sure we'll discuss that 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:30.080 in more detail later, but that was a real shocker 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:32.560 for me when I in this episode came across a 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:37.039 CT scan of a HeLa monster head. It's got some 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:37.880 stuff going on. 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:40.600 Yeah, yeah, absolutely, it's gonna be fun to get into 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:43.520 all of that. But just on the surface, you know, 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:48.080 they don't necessarily look all that monstrous. If you've gotten 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:50.880 to see one live, then you've probably seen one at 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:53.400 a zoo, as I have. That's the only place I've 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:56.920 ever seen live HeLa monsters, and you know, they're generally 0:01:56.960 --> 0:01:59.840 not doing much. They're just letting there. You know, you 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:03.280 might suspect they are fake because they're they're just resting, 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:06.000 and they spend a lot of time doing just that, 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:10.600 but still visually very interesting. They have that signature pink 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:16.200 slash orange and black colorization, and their general character, at 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:19.320 least in my opinion, is this is kind of adorable, 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:22.800 kind of comfy. There's something kind of laid back about 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:23.560 these lizards. 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:26.560 I don't recall if I've seen a HeLa monster at 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:30.560 a zoo, but I've seen another Heloderma lizard, very similar species, 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:32.000 the Mexican beaded lizard. 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:34.520 Yeah, I think that one is maybe a little more 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:36.800 common at zoos. I know the zoo here in Atlanta 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:39.840 used to have some HeLa monsters and they might have 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:42.160 them again now. I haven't been in several months. 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:44.680 When I was recently looking at one of these things 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:46.919 at a zoo with my daughter, it did not move 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:49.000 at all. It was just a big kind of a 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:52.079 just a log in its tank, just sitting there, and 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:54.760 she didn't seem all that interested in it, maybe because 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:55.400 it wasn't moving. 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:57.520 Did you did you not remind her that this is 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:00.920 a monster? You were looking at a monster, real life monster? 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:02.839 Didn't break through? 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:07.359 Well, where do these monsters live where? They are native 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:11.040 to the southwestern United States and to the northwestern Mexican 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:14.600 state of Sonora, But they are a rare sighting in 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:20.000 the wild. So just some personal documentation here. I have 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:23.440 family uncle and aunt on my wife's side in Arizona. 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:26.880 They've lived there since nineteen sixty nine, and they've always 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:30.280 been very active and outdoorsy, you know, going on hikes, 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:34.720 horseback riding, that sort of thing, you know, always getting 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:37.480 out there, and they're still getting out there, and I 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:40.840 had to ask them both about it, texting them earlier 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:43.360 in the week, and each of them has only ever 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:46.440 seen a HeLa monster once in the wild. One of 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:49.720 them saw a HeLa monster on a hiking trail, crossing 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:53.120 the trail, and then another saw one sunning itself on 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:56.920 some rocks during a morning horse ride. So I think 0:03:57.360 --> 0:03:59.840 this is just a small sample size, and I'd love 0:03:59.880 --> 0:04:03.080 to hear from any other people who've spent significant amounts 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:05.680 of time within the range of the Heela Monster. But 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:08.560 I think it does speak volumes for how secluded these 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:09.480 creatures tend to be. 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:13.640 Yeah, you are not likely to see them very often 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:15.960 for two reasons, I would say. One is that they 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:18.640 tend to spend the majority of their time hiding in 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:21.800 burrows or in shelters, and then the other part is 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:24.320 that when they are out in the open, they have 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:26.920 these color patterns on them, which actually can help them 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:29.520 blend in quite well. You might have seen one and 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:30.240 not seen it. 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:34.640 Yeah, Yeah, it'd be interesting to discuss their camouflage in 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:38.200 these episodes because it's kind of My understanding is it's 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:40.520 kind of both. It's like on one hand, from a distance, 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:44.679 their colorization can lead can lead to a camouflaged effect, 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:46.880 make them more difficult to see. But then when you 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:51.120 get closer, it is more of an alarming visual signature 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:54.240 warning you you should not mess with this creature for 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:58.440 reasons that we will discuss now. I've of course been 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:01.200 visiting Arizona for I think it this point almost twenty years, 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:03.520 and I've certainly never seen one of these creatures in 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:06.000 the wild. It's always been in the back of my 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:08.080 mind It's like a helo monster episode would be good. 0:05:08.400 --> 0:05:11.640 But it was actually on my recent visit to Denver, Colorado, 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:14.720 that I decided, oh yeah, definitely need to pull the 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:17.919 trigger on this. This is a place well outside the 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:22.039 HeLa monsters range. But there was a great volunteer led 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:26.440 exhibit at the museum titled Nature's Medicine Cabinet, which featured 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:30.520 helo monsters among various other profile organisms that had either 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:34.520 been traditionally used in human medicine generally plants as well 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:37.480 as animals that had come into play had come to 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:41.839 play a key role due to advancements in peptides. Of note, 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:45.479 while helas don't naturally live in Denver, the city played 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:48.719 host to the only known human fatality from a helo 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:51.440 monster bite in the last century, when a man who 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:54.880 kept them as pets in Denver suffered a fatal bite. 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:59.480 I think there is a disputed case of acclaimed HeLa 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:03.000 monster death from nineteen thirty or so, but one of 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:05.800 the authors we're going to talk about casts some doubt 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:08.240 on the veracity of that one. But yeah, I also 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:11.240 read about the same case in Colorado. But as we 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:14.600 will discuss later on, while the venom of the heel 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:19.560 monster is quite a cocktail, it is incredibly potent. It 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:22.919 There are a lot of documented helo monster bites and 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:27.120 almost none of them have resulted in death, So very potent, 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:31.680 something you absolutely do not want to experience for reasons 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:34.560 that we will talk about, but usually not fatal. 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:37.960 Yeah, and to be clear, we'll drive this again and 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:40.000 again as well. This is not a creature you need 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:44.000 to be afraid of. Your chances of an encountering one 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:47.080 in the wild are so rare. Really, the people who 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:50.800 have been bitten by them are generally actively handling them. 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:53.120 They have sought them out, or they have them as pets, 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:56.080 and so that's just not going to happen. If you 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:59.720 were if you were doing anything outdoors or indoors within 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:02.800 thee of the HeLa monster. There's a long list of 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:04.880 things that are more dangerous to you ahead of that. 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:07.760 Yeah, that's the I was reading the exact same thing. 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:11.040 It's not like you might read about rattlesnake bites, where 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:13.360 sometimes it's just a chance encounter. You step in the 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:16.240 wrong place, so you accidentally come across one and there's 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:20.520 a strike. With the heel monster, it is almost entirely 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:24.040 a case of people intentionally messing with these animals that 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:26.760 results in bites. It's not one where they're going to 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:27.800 sneak up and get you. 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:31.960 Yeah. Absolutely. But before we dive in a little bit 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:33.680 more here, I just want to mention a couple of 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:37.320 sources that we were referring to here. I guess the 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:40.360 big one is Biology of HeLa Monsters and Beaded Lizards 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:44.320 by Daniel D. Beck, University of California Press. 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:46.400 Yeah. I looked up Daniel D. 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:46.680 Beck. 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:49.280 He's a biology professor. I think he's retired now, but 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:52.000 he was affiliated with Central Washington University. 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:55.240 Yeah, And then text that I was at more general 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:58.600 herb text that I've been looking at as a slightly 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:01.360 older piece from Age published nineteen ninety eight, though I 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:03.680 think the addition I have is a more revised edition 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:06.680 from like two thousand and five. It is Encyclopedia of 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:10.840 Reptiles and Amphibian second Edition by Harold G. Kauger and 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:14.440 Richard G. Zwiffel. Also a nice text. And we're also 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:17.800 going to refer to some more recent studies concerning the 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:20.680 HeLa Monster, because one of the amazing things that I've 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:23.040 seen pointed out is that despite the fact that the 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:26.760 HeLa Monster is pretty famous, it is like a sports mascot, 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:30.360 and you know, and everybody knows about it. It's shown 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:33.719 up in numerous films, sometimes at least once, well more 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:38.240 than once in the starring role, not necessarily Oscar worthy pictures. 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:40.839 But you can't blame the Helo Monster. That's more the 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:46.840 agents of fault forgetting the Helo Monster these gigs. But movies, Yeah, 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:48.800 that's sort of they and some more recent films in 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:52.280 that sort of vein. But yeah, despite it being such 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:55.719 a well known creature, there are certain aspects of its 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:59.760 biology that are as yet not fully understood or certainly 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.560 where we've been catching up in recent years figuring exactly 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:16.520 how they work. All right, Well, let's dive into it 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:20.520 a bit more. What sort of lizard is the HeLa monster. 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:24.360 Let's narrow it down. They're technically beaded lizards of the 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:30.000 family helo dermat today and its sole genus Heloderma. It's 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:33.560 a small family, small genus with previously, I believe only 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:38.240 five recognized extant species native to the Americas, including the 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:43.360 HeLa monster, the Mexican beaded lizard, and the Guatemalan beaded lizard. Historically, 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:46.640 we thought there were only two Mexican beated lizard and 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:49.520 the Helo monster. So many older sources are going to 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:53.600 reflect that all of them are venomous, the only venomous 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:56.800 extant lizards, and the Helo monster is generally singled out 0:09:56.840 --> 0:09:59.439 as being the only literal venomous lizard native to the 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:00.000 United States. 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:02.640 I had a bit of confusion when I was reading 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:06.000 about this, because several sources I was reading refer to 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:09.760 the Heloderma lizards, the small family of species, as the 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:14.200 only venomous lizards on Earth, and yet there are some 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:18.640 other lizard species I think, mostly monitor lizards like the 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:22.480 Komodo dragon, that also do have some kind of venom. 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:27.200 I think this might come down to distinctions that specialists 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:29.600 make about, like how the venom is delivered and what 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:33.200 its primary function is. So there is some other venom 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:37.440 in lizards out there, but these in some special way 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:41.239 are like the most primarily venomous lizards. 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:44.560 Yes, absolutely, yeah, yeah, to be clear, Yeah, the monitor 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:48.719 lizards of Africa, Asia, Indonesia, and Australia are also venomous 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:50.920 and thought to be thought to be closely related in 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:53.680 the grand scheme of things here. And this does include 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:58.319 the mighty komodo dragons of Indonesia, which have an anticoagulant 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:02.760 and I believe neurotoxic venom, but mostly is noted for 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:07.160 its blood thinning properties. So, like you know, a komodo 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:11.280 dragon bites its prey, it inflicts a pretty dire wound, 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:13.720 and a wound that is also going to drain out 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:14.440 a lot faster. 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:17.640 Years ago, I remember us talking about this idea that 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:19.480 had been floating around for a long time that the 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:27.160 komodo dragon in particular had weaponized pathogenic bacteria in its 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:29.520 mouth so that it would like bite its prey. I 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:31.320 guess the idea is it would bite its prey and 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:34.760 this would cause an infection and then later the komodo 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:38.520 dragon could take advantage of this and take down the prey. 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:42.280 This apparently used to be a pretty popular theory, but 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:45.040 recent research has turned against it. So I was reading 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:49.880 some articles about this, quoting a toxicologist named Brian Frye 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:53.360 at the University of Queensland who talks about how actually 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:57.040 komodo dragon mouths are not especially they don't have a 0:11:57.120 --> 0:12:00.680 specially dangerous bacteria in them. In fact, they're relatively clean 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:04.160 as far as animal mouths go. Kimodo dragons spend a 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:07.160 lot of time cleaning their mouths, kind of licking and 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:10.360 smacking their lips and rubbing their heads on things in 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:13.440 the environment, like rubbing their mouths against leaves to try 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:15.720 to clean them off after meals. So you have this 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:18.680 old idea of the kimodo dragons with rotting meat in 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:21.400 their teeth or something, and this kind host bacteria that 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:24.480 will infect the prey animal after it gets a bite 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:27.839 from the komodo dragon. That seems to be not really 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:31.280 the case. Their mouths are not really different from the 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:34.480 mouths of other carnivores, and fry says that they just 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:38.040 don't have enough bacteria in their mouths to really harm 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:40.839 an injured animal anymore than you would expect a bite 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:41.880 of any animal too. 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:46.640 Yeah. Yeah, and this makes sense on several grounds. For starters, 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:49.719 we know that while komodo dragons are voracious eaters, they 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:53.000 consume something like all but twelve percent of a body, 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:58.600 tearing it apart with their strong foe loombs and serrated teeth, which, 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:02.360 by the way, sets monitor lizards in general apart from 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:06.520 most reptiles, aside from I believe sea turtles in that 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:09.480 they're not swallowing prey whole. They're you know, tearing it up. 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:14.520 They but but yeah, they're they're in their own way fastidious. 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:17.600 They take care to sling out the contents of intestines 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:21.679 before they eat them, and their small young avoid cannibalization 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:25.640 by their gigantic elders, in part by rolling around in 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:26.320 such filth. 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:31.840 Interesting. Yeah, so that they're too smelly to eat, I guess, yeah. 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:34.200 Yeah, that in common. They also like tend to stick 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:36.560 to the trees, so yeah, they're they're too young to 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:38.960 get along with the big kimodos. They stay up in 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:41.560 the trees. As they grow in size, they come down. 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:45.000 But kmodo dragons grow throughout their lives, like you know 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:48.280 a lot of reptile species that we've discussed. So there's 0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:51.600 there's still going to be a mismatch, and you're gonna 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:55.280 have these situations where komodo drag the large ones have 0:13:55.679 --> 0:14:00.480 taken down prey and or are scavenging prey, and so 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:03.440 there's some sort of large, smelly feast to be had. 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:06.160 The big dragons are going to have primary access to that. 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:08.920 The younger dragons, the ones that are there, they're big 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:11.160 enough to come down from the trees, but they're not 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:13.680 big enough to get in on the buffet. They're going 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:18.160 to go around in this circle, this kind of uh, 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:21.920 this circle of that's like a nervous circle that's going 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:25.160 around the feeding area, an appeasement circle, I believe it's 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:27.840 sometimes referred to as where they're just kind of hanging 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:30.640 around making it clear that they are not contesting the 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:32.760 kill at all, They are not attempting to get in, 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:36.520 but they are ready to do clean up after the 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:40.280 main meal has taken place. So, yeah, kimodos in and 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:45.120 of themselves instant endlessly fascinating as well, you know, enormous 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:49.520 predatory lizards and yeah, so I guess the other thing 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:52.560 thinking about this whole this this again this idea that 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:56.880 there was harmful bacteria in their saliva, which you see 0:14:56.880 --> 0:14:59.000 that in the older sources and even in not so 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:01.680 old sources. They so kind of you see, kind of 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:05.600 like a halfway holding onto that concept where they're saying, Okay, 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:08.280 there's a toxin, there's a venom in play, but also 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:11.200 the bacteria. But you know, when you look at the 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:14.480 full equation of what they have, their strength, their teeth, 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:19.200 their anticoagulant, venom, they certainly don't need a bacterially potent 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:21.880 bite to get the job done. I suspect some of 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:24.840 this also goes back to prior interpretations of the Komodo 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:29.880 dragon as being primarily scavengers. In part this may have 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:31.440 been due to the fact that you would see them, 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:36.560 you know, all hanging out around this rotting kill. But 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:40.000 nowadays we know that they are very capable hunters, bringing 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:43.000 down things like water buffaloes and deer, and they are 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:45.240 in fact apex predators in their environments. 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:48.920 Yeah, so attacking live prey, going after it, taking it 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:52.920 down with strength, with jaws, all that stuff. Yeah, and 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:54.560 the help of some venom as well. 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:56.640 Yeah, Yeah, I think the idea is, yeah, they get 0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:59.160 a really good bite in. If the prey makes it 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:01.360 away from them, they're not going to make it too 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:03.400 far and they're going to succumb to those injuries. 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:06.400 But again to emphasize, based on what I was reading, 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:08.360 it seems like komodo dragons are not going to be 0:16:08.360 --> 0:16:12.520 as dependent on their venom for a hunting and predation 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:15.240 as like most venomous snakes are. 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:18.080 Yeah, like you can think of a venomous snake almost 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:20.760 as a sniper, whereas the komodo dragon is more like 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:26.560 artillery I guess, and some similar interpretations are going to 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:30.400 transition into and I'm certainly going to apply to what 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:32.120 we're going to be talking about with the HeLa Monster. 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:35.520 So coming back to the Helo monster, what does this 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:39.840 name mean? You know, I think, going back to childhood interpretations, 0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:43.320 this is you know, we encounter the word HeLa. It 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:45.760 is spelled g i l a. This leads to a 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:49.960 number of early mispronunciations as we talk about the Gila monster. Perhaps, 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:52.960 but it is HeLa and it is named for the 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:56.280 HeLa River basin of New Mexico and Arizona, where it 0:16:56.320 --> 0:17:01.520 was once plentiful. The scientific name is Heloderma suspectum, which 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:06.000 translates to suspicious wart skin, with the suspart coming from 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:11.080 nineteenth century paleontologist and biologist Edward Drinker Cope. Some of 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:13.280 you may remember that name. He was one of the 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:16.439 key individuals in the paleontologist Bone Wars. 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:21.000 Yeah. So, according to that book by Beck, the reason 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:26.359 that these lizards were suspicious to Cope was that Cope 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:30.879 suspected that they were venomous but couldn't be sure. And 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:34.160 this was actually an unsettled issue for like hundreds of years, 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:38.000 the different naturalists making opposing claims about whether HeLa monsters 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:42.119 were venomous or not. It wasn't until around the nineteen twenties, 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:45.760 by Beck's reckoning, that enough evidence had been marshaled to 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:49.440 convince basically everybody in the field that they were truly venomous, 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:52.160 and yet the species name stuck. So I think it's 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:57.040 funny that HeLa monsters are in their scientific name forever suspected, 0:17:57.160 --> 0:18:01.640 even though they are one hundred percent guilty, poor critters. 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:04.320 I think it is telling that this was such this 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:07.600 remains such an open question because, as we'll discuss, anyone 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:11.000 who has ever actually been bitten by a HeLa monster. 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:15.000 There's no doubt concerning this. Well. 0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:18.080 Beck tells a funny story where one of the guys 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:21.600 who was arguing, no, they're not venomous, got a bite 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:24.000 from a HeLa monster and apparently it wasn't that bad. 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:26.000 So maybe it was just a dry bite. I don't know, 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:31.120 Like we'll talk later about the venomation mechanism, So maybe 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:34.000 this guy got a quick little nip without much venom, 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:37.199 you know, mashed in or something. Yeah, it was like, 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:41.120 no big deal. I don't think they're venomous. I would 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:44.240 love to compare that to other accounts of bites from 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:48.920 these things, which are epic to read. But I wanted 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:51.159 to note another interesting thing about their scientific names. So 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:55.200 the genus name again is a Heloderma. The species name 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:58.400 suspect them. Suspect them because they were suspected of being venomous, 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:02.080 and they were. But the the genus name can be interpreted, 0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:05.600 like you said, as wardy skin, though more literally it 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:10.040 comes from the Greek that means skin of nails or 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:14.479 skin of studs. This will relate to a biological feature 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:17.719 we'll talk about in a minute called the osteoderms, but 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:21.159 so heloderma. The derma of course means skin, but the 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:24.560 helopart comes from the Greek word helos, referring to a 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:28.040 nail or a stud, or more specifically, the flat head 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:31.440 of a nail, So these are nail skin. There are 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:34.640 pin head lizards in a way. I'm thinking of Doug Bradley. 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:38.840 Yeah, yeah, I think pinhead lizard is a nice nickname 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:43.280 for the HeLa monster. Yeah, because warts, they're not really warts. 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:46.959 Beads I think is a better physical description of what 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:49.960 we're looking at. These, as you mentioned, are in fact 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:54.399 bony osteoderms that do indeed provide an armor layer for 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:58.000 the HeLa monster as well as their beaded and monitor 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:01.560 lizard can. I frequently see it compared to various medieval 0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:04.320 armors such as chain mail, you know, pretty obvious thing 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:07.000 to compare it to, though this can be confusing as 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:11.439 osteoderms do not overlap. I've read the lizards also have 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:15.919 scales atop these osteoderms as well, and osteoderms can fuse 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:19.640 with the skeleton and with the Helo monster, they specifically 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:24.240 fuse with their skulls, creating just a very memorable skull 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:26.240 if you were an easy skull. Yeah, if you were 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:28.960 not behind the wheel of a car, or I don't know, 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:31.440 non jury do it. I don't know whatever you're doing. 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:35.200 Or you shouldn't look at your phone or your computer screen. 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:37.600 If you are able, look them up. Look up some 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:42.000 images of Helo monster skulls alongside Helo monster fleshed heads, 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:46.080 and it's pretty pretty memorable, and I would say pretty metal. 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:48.560 Another thing, if you get a chance to look up, 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:52.080 is a picture of a CT scan of a HeLa 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:54.440 monster head, which I came across in a paper that 0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:57.000 I think we were both looking out for this episode 0:20:57.040 --> 0:21:01.440 by Gordon W. S Hewitt at all. Lead author is Shwett. 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:04.560 So this is a paper about I think it's mainly 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:08.639 about female female aggression fighting between Heela monsters. But it 0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:10.680 just throws in in the middle of the paper here 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:13.960 are some CT scans of Helo monster heads. It gives 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:17.520 you top view, bottom view, lateral view. Especially the lateral 0:21:17.600 --> 0:21:20.720 view of the head. It doesn't look real. It looks 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:24.520 like an illustration of a dragon. Because so you have 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:27.000 these osteoderms, like we've been talking about, these kind of 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:32.280 bulbous little beads, these wardy shaped, little bony patches covering 0:21:32.320 --> 0:21:35.920 the entire head, and then also a little bit less 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:39.320 densely grouped but also covering the neck. And then the 0:21:39.520 --> 0:21:42.520 head just terminates in these empty eye sockets and these 0:21:42.640 --> 0:21:45.840 teeth that look like something out of a fantasy. They're 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:51.760 a horrible, just long, spiny, spear tip looking teeth that 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:54.719 look more like a drawing than like nature. 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:57.720 It really, if you didn't know what a helo monster's 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:00.960 skull looks like, you might suspect that this is a 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:05.280 Halloween decoration that you buy at lows in like late September. Yeah. 0:22:05.320 --> 0:22:07.919 Yeah, it looks like dragons from movies. It looks like 0:22:08.119 --> 0:22:10.320 one of the things from Game of Thrones. Yeah, like 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:12.800 a dragon the head with ridiculous teeth. 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:19.080 Yeah yeah, absolutely gnarly. And again it's an interesting juxtaposition. 0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:23.199 When you look at a fleshed, fully fleshed HeLa monster, 0:22:24.320 --> 0:22:26.800 I would say, you know, with that signature black and 0:22:27.040 --> 0:22:29.920 pink orange color scheme, I tend to think they look 0:22:30.119 --> 0:22:32.359 kind of sweet, you know, a little bit lazy, a 0:22:32.359 --> 0:22:36.840 little bit silly. Yeah, totally not the same sinister vibes. 0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:40.520 They often have sweet looking eyes. They're just looking at 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:41.800 you like, hey, what's up. 0:22:43.520 --> 0:22:48.520 Yeah. Absolutely, though to be clear, do not attempt to 0:22:48.560 --> 0:22:51.040 love them in a physical manner. No love from a farm. 0:22:51.280 --> 0:23:01.480 Yeah. 0:23:01.640 --> 0:23:04.400 So, I'll see other descriptions that are important here. There's 0:23:04.440 --> 0:23:08.320 stocky lizards with broad heads and short fat tails, where 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:11.200 they indeed use these tails for fat storage. 0:23:11.480 --> 0:23:11.680 Yeah. 0:23:11.760 --> 0:23:13.919 So they often get a bunch of their meals in 0:23:14.000 --> 0:23:16.399 one part of the year and then store up that 0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:20.000 energy as fat reserves in the tail, which they can 0:23:20.000 --> 0:23:22.920 then live off of for the leaner parts of the year. 0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:25.840 That's right, I've read that. Yeah, their meals are few 0:23:25.840 --> 0:23:29.480 and far between, somewhere between five and ten meals per 0:23:29.560 --> 0:23:32.840 year for a helo monster. So. Beaded lizards in general 0:23:32.960 --> 0:23:35.480 spend most of their time in burrows and they avoid 0:23:35.520 --> 0:23:38.919 extreme temperatures, so only during cooler spring months are they 0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:41.440 going to come out during the day at all. They 0:23:41.480 --> 0:23:44.960 forage on the ground, but can also climb trees as well. 0:23:45.080 --> 0:23:48.040 Even the helo monster who if you again, if you certainly, 0:23:48.080 --> 0:23:50.680 if you've seen them at the zoo or in some 0:23:50.720 --> 0:23:54.320 sort of you know, enclosed environment like that, they don't 0:23:54.320 --> 0:23:56.120 really look like they're going to be scaling a lot 0:23:56.119 --> 0:23:58.680 of trees. They look like they are very ground based 0:23:59.040 --> 0:24:03.400 and certainly under round based. But you have to consider 0:24:03.480 --> 0:24:07.600 what their favorite meals are, and so they're they're foraging, 0:24:07.640 --> 0:24:10.240 but what are they foraging for. They're generally looking for 0:24:11.040 --> 0:24:14.960 eggs and young prey, so young mammalian prey generally like 0:24:15.119 --> 0:24:18.719 rodents or I believe baby rabbits also come up as 0:24:18.760 --> 0:24:19.320 a favorite. 0:24:19.440 --> 0:24:23.640 They love little cottontails, baby birds, eggs. They're nest raiders, 0:24:23.720 --> 0:24:25.760 nest rating specialists, and so. 0:24:25.720 --> 0:24:27.800 You got to go where the nests are, and certainly 0:24:27.840 --> 0:24:29.840 with a lot of bird species, they may be up 0:24:29.880 --> 0:24:31.640 in the in the trees, and so that is where 0:24:31.680 --> 0:24:34.679 the HeLa monster will go. If you look around and on, 0:24:34.760 --> 0:24:39.600 you can find some images of HeLa monsters possibly in 0:24:39.640 --> 0:24:42.000 the act of climbing, or at least they're halfway up 0:24:42.000 --> 0:24:45.280 a tree or small tree. Anyway, again, you have to 0:24:45.320 --> 0:24:49.040 consider their environments and what constitutes a tree and helo 0:24:49.119 --> 0:24:49.800 monster land. 0:24:50.560 --> 0:24:54.400 Yeah, they're not going to be a lot of sorry, 0:24:54.440 --> 0:24:56.119 is it going to be a lot of desert stuff 0:24:56.200 --> 0:24:58.080 like maybe mesquite or pelleverity? 0:24:58.480 --> 0:25:00.400 Yeah, I think so. Yeah, not going to be yeah, 0:25:00.440 --> 0:25:05.680 redwoods or gigantic trees of that that nature. Uh, but yeah, 0:25:05.720 --> 0:25:09.159 they so some of the nests and an opportunities to 0:25:09.160 --> 0:25:11.119 feed are going to be up high, but a lot 0:25:11.160 --> 0:25:12.960 of them are going to be in the ground, and 0:25:13.000 --> 0:25:15.840 so they can use their powerful fore limbs to go 0:25:15.920 --> 0:25:19.280 after those nests as well. Uh. And they yeah, and 0:25:19.640 --> 0:25:22.879 according to Beck and his work, they feed almost exclusively 0:25:22.960 --> 0:25:25.840 on vertebrate nest contents. They'll eat other things as well, 0:25:26.480 --> 0:25:29.320 but vertebrate nest contents that's what they go for. 0:25:29.640 --> 0:25:30.000 Okay. 0:25:31.080 --> 0:25:34.560 Beck explains that few other lizards or snakes are really 0:25:34.600 --> 0:25:37.480 going to share this uh, this this niche because it 0:25:37.560 --> 0:25:40.680 is a challenging one to choose in life. We see 0:25:40.680 --> 0:25:44.439 this with other examples of of of organisms where if 0:25:44.440 --> 0:25:49.040 you have a very specialized diet, uh, it may bring richness, 0:25:49.040 --> 0:25:53.879 but it also can bring you know, seasonable availability and 0:25:53.920 --> 0:25:57.720 so forth. So so that's definitely in play here. Egg 0:25:57.800 --> 0:26:01.320 layers and and and eating animals are going to be 0:26:01.520 --> 0:26:03.520 you know, more active at certain times of the year 0:26:03.560 --> 0:26:06.280 that's when they're going to produce. But also if you 0:26:06.400 --> 0:26:10.359 are eating mostly eggs or the young, these are prize commodities, 0:26:10.400 --> 0:26:14.639 a lot of energy goes into creating them, and then 0:26:15.440 --> 0:26:16.760 this could and then a lot of energy is going 0:26:16.800 --> 0:26:20.120 to go into either secreting them away or actively protecting them. 0:26:20.600 --> 0:26:23.680 So so that is also a factor. And to even 0:26:23.800 --> 0:26:26.479 find them, especially if they're hidden in some way, you 0:26:26.480 --> 0:26:29.800 have to be pretty sensitive to their uh, to to 0:26:29.840 --> 0:26:32.800 their their their their their chemical signal. You have to 0:26:32.840 --> 0:26:36.840 have a very chemically sensitive organism and in organism that 0:26:36.880 --> 0:26:41.119 has a pretty good memory. So so again you have 0:26:41.160 --> 0:26:45.800 to factor that into the evolutionary direction that monitor that 0:26:45.840 --> 0:26:48.800 these uh, these beaded lizards and specifically uh, the HeLa 0:26:48.880 --> 0:26:51.760 monster have gone uh, so you have to have you 0:26:51.880 --> 0:26:55.440 end up with a devoted egg eater slash baby eater, 0:26:56.000 --> 0:26:58.760 nest rat or that has to go for long stretches 0:26:58.800 --> 0:27:04.000 without being able to eat. And indeed we see that 0:27:04.080 --> 0:27:06.919 with the Helo monsters diet again, eating five to ten 0:27:07.000 --> 0:27:09.520 times a year, and those meals are not going to 0:27:09.560 --> 0:27:13.520 be evenly spread out now they get at their Their 0:27:13.560 --> 0:27:17.359 activity also ticks up during other key moments, of course, 0:27:17.440 --> 0:27:21.200 during breeding season and mate selection season. This is when 0:27:21.240 --> 0:27:23.760 the males of the Helo monsters are going to compete 0:27:23.800 --> 0:27:27.720 through what is often described as fierce combat, though I'm 0:27:27.720 --> 0:27:31.919 to understand it's mostly intense wrestling with some nibs. So 0:27:32.359 --> 0:27:34.000 they're going to bite each other, but they're not going 0:27:34.080 --> 0:27:37.600 to go full on venom inducing bites. These are going 0:27:37.640 --> 0:27:40.960 to be I'm not going to say loving bites. They're 0:27:41.000 --> 0:27:47.960 still done in an offensive way. They're still competing, but yeah, 0:27:48.080 --> 0:27:49.920 not going to be full on bites. The mating takes 0:27:50.000 --> 0:27:53.280 place in late spring, resulting in up to a dozen eggs, 0:27:53.280 --> 0:27:55.159 which require ten months before hatching. 0:27:55.680 --> 0:27:57.480 So like in a lot of other species, you're going 0:27:57.560 --> 0:28:00.520 to have, especially males, competing with each each other for 0:28:00.640 --> 0:28:02.080 opportunities to mate. 0:28:02.600 --> 0:28:06.159 Yes, absolutely, Yeah, they're going to wrestle around, they're going 0:28:06.200 --> 0:28:09.480 to nib each other, and then it's going to you know, 0:28:09.880 --> 0:28:12.800 lead to mate selection and the production of these eggs. 0:28:12.960 --> 0:28:13.840 Yeah. 0:28:14.080 --> 0:28:15.480 Now, this is where we're going to come back to 0:28:15.480 --> 0:28:18.720 that study we referenced already from Shuitt. This is a 0:28:18.760 --> 0:28:22.879 twenty twenty three study from cal poly Pomona and it 0:28:23.080 --> 0:28:26.480 concerns female female aggression in the HeLa monster and they 0:28:26.520 --> 0:28:29.080 found that, Okay, this is you know, definitely the case 0:28:29.119 --> 0:28:32.760 when males fight each other intense wrestling but mostly just 0:28:32.960 --> 0:28:35.960 nibbing at each other with their mouths. But when females 0:28:36.000 --> 0:28:38.840 fight each other, and they may fight each other for 0:28:38.840 --> 0:28:43.000 a few different reasons, you know, territorial defense, an acquisition, 0:28:43.160 --> 0:28:49.000 mate defense, parental care slash cannibalism prevention. When the females fight, 0:28:49.160 --> 0:28:53.400 they really don't hold anything bite. They're full on bites here, 0:28:54.320 --> 0:28:57.600 which is which is interesting, Like they're not going it's 0:28:57.600 --> 0:29:00.600 like they're not competing for mating here. They are just 0:29:01.200 --> 0:29:05.840 all out like for instance, defending their young and or 0:29:05.880 --> 0:29:10.880 preventing cannibalism from occurring. Because again, helo monsters are nest raiders, 0:29:10.920 --> 0:29:14.080 they are not above rating other heelo monster nests. 0:29:14.400 --> 0:29:17.600 The authors of the study talk about reasons why the 0:29:18.720 --> 0:29:21.680 intensity and the violence of the fighting between the females 0:29:21.760 --> 0:29:26.240 might be greater than that of the competition between males, 0:29:26.760 --> 0:29:29.080 and one idea they talk about that I thought was 0:29:29.120 --> 0:29:33.240 interesting is that it could be because the males have 0:29:33.440 --> 0:29:40.200 a ritualized system for handling intersex conflict. So because they 0:29:40.280 --> 0:29:43.720 have this system of competing with one another for mates, 0:29:43.800 --> 0:29:47.800 they have this ritualized wrestling type of thing where they 0:29:47.960 --> 0:29:51.280 can sort of have a proxy for all out fighting 0:29:51.320 --> 0:29:55.719 by competing to show endurance in wrestling or these displays, 0:29:56.280 --> 0:29:59.200 which is another interesting example of something we've talked about 0:29:59.280 --> 0:30:02.320 on the show before of like a lot of the 0:30:02.400 --> 0:30:05.320 things we see in nature that we think of as 0:30:05.600 --> 0:30:11.640 fighting or aggression are actually ways of avoiding fighting or aggression. 0:30:11.760 --> 0:30:12.160 M hmm. 0:30:12.960 --> 0:30:15.680 It's kind of a kind of an interesting paradox there, 0:30:15.720 --> 0:30:18.560 Like some of the most aggressive stuff you might see 0:30:18.600 --> 0:30:22.360 animals doing is actually behaviors they have evolved in order 0:30:22.400 --> 0:30:24.280 to avoid all out violence. 0:30:25.040 --> 0:30:28.400 Yeah, yeah, this is This is always fascinating anytime it 0:30:28.440 --> 0:30:30.680 comes up. You know that we have we certainly have 0:30:30.760 --> 0:30:34.240 more extreme cases where essentially, like two males can just 0:30:34.280 --> 0:30:36.960 stare each other down. One has a clear size advantage 0:30:37.040 --> 0:30:39.479 or some other clear advantage. The other one's just going 0:30:39.520 --> 0:30:41.160 to back down. It's like, okay, we don't even have 0:30:41.240 --> 0:30:43.520 to fight. We can see how this would play out. 0:30:44.000 --> 0:30:45.680 And this is kind of more like sort of a 0:30:45.720 --> 0:30:49.280 downstream version of a similar scenario. It's like like, okay, 0:30:49.280 --> 0:30:51.920 we can sort of go fifty percent in this battle, 0:30:52.240 --> 0:30:54.880 and then we know how a full one hundred percent 0:30:54.920 --> 0:30:56.520 battle between the two of us would go. But we 0:30:56.560 --> 0:30:59.840 don't need to go there. You know, the winner wants 0:30:59.880 --> 0:31:02.239 to go on in mate, the loser would like to 0:31:02.240 --> 0:31:05.480 go on and successfully mate and or win other competitions. 0:31:05.800 --> 0:31:07.920 It serves everyone's best interest if this is how it 0:31:07.960 --> 0:31:08.440 plays out. 0:31:08.640 --> 0:31:11.680 I guess it usually only works out for like a 0:31:12.280 --> 0:31:16.840 maybe a younger individual that doesn't look as strong but 0:31:16.960 --> 0:31:20.200 could actually win in a fight, like would not win 0:31:20.280 --> 0:31:22.600 the bluff, but would win the fight. But that you know, 0:31:22.640 --> 0:31:25.120 that's not going to happen all that often, right, Right, 0:31:26.240 --> 0:31:27.840 One more thing I did want to mention from this 0:31:27.880 --> 0:31:31.040 Schwitt study, So it talks about another thing that was 0:31:31.200 --> 0:31:34.800 missing from the male male aggression usually but was present 0:31:34.880 --> 0:31:38.920 in the female female aggression. Was so they will bite, 0:31:39.080 --> 0:31:41.800 do it full on biting, and also will do this 0:31:41.880 --> 0:31:46.120 thing they call lateral rotation. Did you get to this 0:31:46.240 --> 0:31:49.560 part here where they're like they compared it actually to 0:31:49.600 --> 0:31:50.880 the crocodilian death. 0:31:51.680 --> 0:31:52.360 Yeah. 0:31:52.400 --> 0:31:54.800 So you know, if you've seen crocodile sometimes when they 0:31:54.840 --> 0:31:58.760 get a bite of something, either grasping part of a 0:31:58.800 --> 0:32:02.280 prey animal that still or just getting part of a carcass, 0:32:02.280 --> 0:32:05.280 you know, like even baby crocodilians that are trying to 0:32:05.440 --> 0:32:08.240 tear off pieces of flesh from from an already dead 0:32:08.280 --> 0:32:11.160 carcass or something. You know, they'll get a bite of 0:32:11.200 --> 0:32:14.760 something in their mouth and instinctually just start spinning about 0:32:14.800 --> 0:32:17.800 wildly in the water. And so in the study, I 0:32:17.800 --> 0:32:20.640 thought it's interesting that even though these lizards are not 0:32:20.760 --> 0:32:24.120 super closely related to crocodilians, they have a similar impulse. 0:32:24.200 --> 0:32:27.840 I guess maybe you know, they are these elongated reptiles, 0:32:27.880 --> 0:32:31.440 so they grab hold and then they just start spinning around. 0:32:31.800 --> 0:32:36.040 If you like. Like I have watched any number of 0:32:36.320 --> 0:32:39.120 like b movies from the fifties and sixties that feature 0:32:39.240 --> 0:32:44.440 dinosaurs which are actually elongated lizards, some monitors, you know, 0:32:44.480 --> 0:32:48.520 some beaded lizards for example, engaging in combat with each 0:32:48.520 --> 0:32:51.880 other that they're generally you're going to see this sort 0:32:51.920 --> 0:32:55.920 of wrestling going on. Yeah, bite and then roll, Yeah, 0:32:55.920 --> 0:32:57.120 a lot of rolling around. 0:32:58.280 --> 0:33:00.800 Oh. But another thing they mentioned in this paper is 0:33:01.000 --> 0:33:05.640 the role of armored protection in these fights. Like the 0:33:05.680 --> 0:33:08.880 osteoderms themselves the little bony warts under the skin. 0:33:09.480 --> 0:33:11.840 Yeah, yeah, this does seem to aid them in these 0:33:12.160 --> 0:33:16.120 contests between males. Also protects them against would be predators, 0:33:16.600 --> 0:33:20.000 as does their venomous bite. More on this in a second. 0:33:20.920 --> 0:33:23.600 And also that colorization, as we mentioned, it serves as 0:33:23.640 --> 0:33:26.760 both warning and camouflage. So Beck points out that the 0:33:26.800 --> 0:33:29.400 color patterns seem to serve as camo at a distance, 0:33:29.680 --> 0:33:32.840 but a warning close up. A warning, of course, of 0:33:32.880 --> 0:33:37.400 their venom, which, at least in their current form, contrary 0:33:37.440 --> 0:33:42.760 to every reptile outside of the heloderm lizards, has no 0:33:42.840 --> 0:33:48.480 offensive or predatory purpose. It's purely defensive. You know. You 0:33:48.520 --> 0:33:51.040 can contrast this again with the komodo dragons, who you know, 0:33:51.040 --> 0:33:53.440 they have venom, but it aids to some degree in 0:33:53.480 --> 0:33:58.240 bringing down their prey helo monsters. And there can they 0:33:58.320 --> 0:34:02.680 just have this really powerful, full chemical weapon on hand 0:34:02.760 --> 0:34:06.440 as a defense. And it's kind of puzzling, right. It's 0:34:06.480 --> 0:34:09.000 like if you showed up at someone's house and the 0:34:09.160 --> 0:34:11.239 house and you're like, hey, what's that over there, it's like, oh, yeah, 0:34:11.280 --> 0:34:14.160 that's my self defense system. It's saren gas. I just 0:34:14.239 --> 0:34:17.239 keep it on hand. It would raise questions like why 0:34:17.239 --> 0:34:20.120 do you have sarin gas as a like a home 0:34:20.160 --> 0:34:22.520 defense system? Like did you have it for some other 0:34:22.560 --> 0:34:25.319 purpose originally and you just have kept it around for this. 0:34:25.800 --> 0:34:26.960 It's an odd choice. 0:34:27.440 --> 0:34:30.680 Now. One thing that's interesting is it does seem to 0:34:30.719 --> 0:34:33.120 be the case that the venom of the heel a 0:34:33.160 --> 0:34:37.600 monster is almost entirely or entirely for defense. But this 0:34:37.800 --> 0:34:40.360 was not always known. For a long time, it was 0:34:40.400 --> 0:34:43.520 a contentious issue or a source of confusion, like was 0:34:43.560 --> 0:34:46.920 it for predation or was it for defense? It does 0:34:46.960 --> 0:34:49.520 seem to be for defense, and we'll talk about reasons 0:34:49.520 --> 0:34:53.400 for that later, and they're pretty interesting. But I wanted 0:34:53.440 --> 0:34:56.480 to talk briefly about the heel a monster bite and 0:34:56.719 --> 0:35:00.480 its venom So again, one of my main sources is 0:35:00.520 --> 0:35:03.400 going to be that book by Daniel Beck, The Biology 0:35:03.400 --> 0:35:06.040 of HeLa Monsters and Beaded Lizards, But I was also 0:35:06.040 --> 0:35:08.360 reading some other sources we can talk about as we 0:35:08.400 --> 0:35:12.839 go along. As we mentioned earlier, the Heloderma lizards are 0:35:12.880 --> 0:35:16.279 known for being among the few, or depending on your definitions, 0:35:16.320 --> 0:35:19.880 the only venomous lizards on Earth. But it took a 0:35:19.920 --> 0:35:23.319 long time to get to full agreement among everybody in 0:35:23.640 --> 0:35:27.799 the specialist sort of herpetology community that these lizards were 0:35:27.960 --> 0:35:31.879 actually venomous. Beca gives this kind of chronicle of the 0:35:31.920 --> 0:35:35.800 history of this controversy, talking about how in the later 0:35:35.840 --> 0:35:39.680 half of the nineteenth century you did have inklings of venomousness, 0:35:39.680 --> 0:35:42.600 some people had made reports of this kind. He says 0:35:42.640 --> 0:35:45.840 that some of the sources at this time comment on 0:35:45.880 --> 0:35:49.440 the quote vile nature of Heloderma. I love these, you know, 0:35:49.480 --> 0:35:54.279 in the older sources they're not as clinical and they're 0:35:54.280 --> 0:35:57.360 not as clinical and reserved as modern sources are, and 0:35:57.400 --> 0:35:59.880 talking about these reptiles, they make kind of moral judgment 0:36:00.080 --> 0:36:04.680 from the animals they talk about, but also that you know, 0:36:04.719 --> 0:36:08.920 some authors in the late later nineteenth century looked at 0:36:08.960 --> 0:36:12.000 things like, well, it's teeth have these grooves in them, 0:36:12.040 --> 0:36:15.040 what are those grooves for? That could be for delivering 0:36:15.120 --> 0:36:18.880 venom of some sort. And then in the eighteen eighties 0:36:18.960 --> 0:36:22.040 there were some dissections of Hiloderma looking at their venom 0:36:22.120 --> 0:36:26.600 glands and experiments which showed that Heloderma saliva was toxic 0:36:26.680 --> 0:36:30.440 to other animals. But this did not settle the matter, 0:36:30.480 --> 0:36:33.120 because then more research was published later in the same 0:36:33.160 --> 0:36:37.960 decade showing that Heloderma saliva had no toxic effects. Beck 0:36:38.040 --> 0:36:41.160 thinks that this false negative about the toxicity of the 0:36:41.200 --> 0:36:45.360 saliva was probably a result of samples being collected wrong. 0:36:45.480 --> 0:36:48.760 He doesn't elaborate, but I wonder if this means somehow 0:36:49.880 --> 0:36:53.160 that the researchers were collecting saliva that did not have 0:36:53.239 --> 0:36:56.319 venom in it, because as we'll mention, it's you know, 0:36:56.400 --> 0:37:00.560 the venom is sort of is injected from glands into mouth. 0:37:01.960 --> 0:37:06.879 In the eighteen nineties, researchers extracted venom directly from heloderma 0:37:07.040 --> 0:37:11.240 venom glands and injected it into small vertebrates, which resulted 0:37:11.280 --> 0:37:16.200 in death. But then others remained skeptical. Here's the thing 0:37:16.239 --> 0:37:19.280 I alluded to earlier. There was this one researcher named Snow, 0:37:19.520 --> 0:37:22.480 last named Snow who got a helo monster bite, and 0:37:22.520 --> 0:37:24.640 he was like, Eh, no big deal. I don't think 0:37:24.680 --> 0:37:27.880 they're venomous. So maybe he just got a dry bite 0:37:27.880 --> 0:37:31.680 with little or no venom delivered unclear, But Beck also 0:37:31.840 --> 0:37:34.840 quotes an author named Goodfellow, writing in the year nineteen 0:37:34.840 --> 0:37:37.319 oh seven, who says, you know, at this point the 0:37:37.320 --> 0:37:40.000 case is closed. It is not venomous. It can be 0:37:40.120 --> 0:37:44.680 conclusively demonstrated. Quote that the bite of the monster is innocuous. 0:37:44.800 --> 0:37:49.399 Per se as we know this was completely wrong, And 0:37:49.520 --> 0:37:52.640 in nineteen thirteen a book was published by the Carnegie 0:37:52.719 --> 0:37:57.279 Institute of Washington that had details on extensive experiments by 0:37:57.280 --> 0:38:01.080 eleven different contributors on the venom of Hiloderma, and this 0:38:01.200 --> 0:38:04.920 book and then subsequent papers in the following decade finally 0:38:05.000 --> 0:38:07.920 had everybody convinced that the lizards were venomous. So it 0:38:07.920 --> 0:38:11.040 seems like by the nineteen twenties. Everybody's on the same page. Okay, 0:38:11.120 --> 0:38:15.840 yes they are venomous. So to picture how Heloderma in 0:38:15.960 --> 0:38:20.680 venomation works, it helps to contrast it with the other 0:38:20.800 --> 0:38:24.440 venomous reptile you're probably thinking of, which is venomous snakes. 0:38:25.120 --> 0:38:28.240 In a venomous snake, the venom glands and the venom 0:38:28.280 --> 0:38:32.960 conducting teeth the fangs are in the upper jaw. In 0:38:33.040 --> 0:38:37.880 most venomous snakes, the fangs will produce deep puncture wounds 0:38:37.880 --> 0:38:41.320 with a bite, and then the snake's venom glands, often 0:38:41.480 --> 0:38:45.200 located sort of behind or under the eyes, inject venom 0:38:45.280 --> 0:38:49.280 through ducts into the wound through holes in the hollow fangs. 0:38:49.960 --> 0:38:53.720 On the other hand, in Heloderma suspectum, the helo monster, 0:38:54.000 --> 0:38:57.480 the venom glands are in the lower jaw, and the 0:38:57.600 --> 0:39:02.200 venom conducting teeth are mostly the lower teeth, So the 0:39:02.280 --> 0:39:06.080 venom conducting teeth here are not going to be injecting 0:39:06.239 --> 0:39:09.600 venom like the fangs of a cobra. If you see 0:39:09.640 --> 0:39:12.719 the venom glands of Heloderma illustrated, they sort of make 0:39:12.760 --> 0:39:15.799 the lizard look a bit jowy. There's a Don Corleone 0:39:15.840 --> 0:39:19.040 thing going on and the venom glands. So there are 0:39:19.080 --> 0:39:23.319 these multi lobed little protuberances on the lower jaw. They 0:39:23.320 --> 0:39:25.040 line the lower jaw and you can see them in 0:39:25.080 --> 0:39:28.640 like three or four lobes down there, and each little 0:39:28.680 --> 0:39:31.720 plump lobe is connected to the gums via a duct. 0:39:31.880 --> 0:39:35.880 So the HeLa monster has very sharp, long teeth with 0:39:36.160 --> 0:39:40.160 grooves running up the teeth from the base, and when 0:39:40.200 --> 0:39:44.200 the lizard bites, venom is expressed from the glands out 0:39:44.200 --> 0:39:47.440 through the ducts, flooding around the base of the teeth, 0:39:47.880 --> 0:39:51.200 and then it is conducted up the teeth and into 0:39:51.320 --> 0:39:55.200 the wounds of the bite victim via capillary action. So 0:39:55.520 --> 0:39:58.280 the same way that if you have a very thin straw, 0:39:58.480 --> 0:40:01.560 you can see liquid just natured truly climb up the straw, 0:40:01.640 --> 0:40:05.160 even without any suction being applied. It's just the capillary 0:40:05.239 --> 0:40:07.640 action caused by the surface tension of the liquid it 0:40:07.680 --> 0:40:10.200 wants to climb up through the very narrow channel. Same 0:40:10.239 --> 0:40:12.400 thing happens. It climbs up through the teeth and is 0:40:12.440 --> 0:40:16.800 conducted into the wound. But there's also just getting venom 0:40:16.880 --> 0:40:20.120 into the wound through good old fashioned mashing and grinding. 0:40:21.200 --> 0:40:23.360 Yeah, that's that's I think one of the really telling 0:40:23.360 --> 0:40:25.480 things about the HeLa monster is that it has to 0:40:25.600 --> 0:40:28.880 chew the venom into the target, which certainly feels like 0:40:28.920 --> 0:40:34.640 a less sort of biotechnolog technologically advanced delivery system compared 0:40:34.680 --> 0:40:37.280 to like a you know, a cobra or a viper 0:40:37.320 --> 0:40:39.839 that you could almost think of their fangs as being 0:40:39.880 --> 0:40:41.400 like little hypodermic needles. 0:40:41.760 --> 0:40:44.120 Yes, I mean, as we know, there is no up 0:40:44.239 --> 0:40:47.840 or down in evolution, so there's no actual like you know, 0:40:48.360 --> 0:40:51.560 more or less sophisticated in a way. That's that's just 0:40:51.719 --> 0:40:54.600 sort of an interpretive overlay that we put on things 0:40:55.120 --> 0:40:57.759 that doesn't really connect anything real in nature. But it 0:40:57.760 --> 0:41:00.680 does feel that way. It feels like a less specialize, 0:41:00.760 --> 0:41:04.440 less sophisticated method of delivery for venom than something like 0:41:04.520 --> 0:41:05.760 cobra fangs. 0:41:05.640 --> 0:41:08.319 Right, And we can certainly understand this a lot more 0:41:08.400 --> 0:41:11.680 by just thinking and continue to discuss how a helo 0:41:11.760 --> 0:41:17.000 monster uses its venom, like what role it has in 0:41:17.320 --> 0:41:21.680 its life as opposed to venomous snakes. But the way 0:41:21.680 --> 0:41:23.680 the Helo monster is going about it, it seems to 0:41:23.719 --> 0:41:25.840 work well for the Helo monster. 0:41:36.239 --> 0:41:40.120 In this book, chapter Beck explains one interesting idea related 0:41:40.160 --> 0:41:44.440 to how the helodermal lizards prepare to deliver their venom. 0:41:45.000 --> 0:41:47.439 So if you approach one of these things, and again 0:41:47.640 --> 0:41:49.879 I recommend if you're out in nature, don't mess with them, 0:41:50.400 --> 0:41:54.680 keep your distance. But if something approaches, a threatened or 0:41:54.760 --> 0:41:59.840 agitated helodermal lizard will often open and close its jaws 0:42:00.040 --> 0:42:04.279 repeatedly at whatever is bothering it, exposing, for one thing, 0:42:04.719 --> 0:42:07.440 sort of showing off the inside of the mouth, exposing 0:42:07.480 --> 0:42:10.160 this pink, purple white inside of the mouth is very 0:42:10.160 --> 0:42:13.040 different color is usually than the outside of the animal, 0:42:13.120 --> 0:42:15.879 so that can be kind of visually shocking to see 0:42:15.960 --> 0:42:19.480 when it spreads its jaws wide, and this is often 0:42:19.480 --> 0:42:22.640 interpreted as a threat display, but Beck mentions that it 0:42:23.120 --> 0:42:26.680 might have another function, which is that the opening and 0:42:26.760 --> 0:42:30.319 closing of the jaws could serve to express venom from 0:42:30.320 --> 0:42:33.320 the glands into the mouth and then to better coat 0:42:33.640 --> 0:42:37.240 all the teeth with venom rather than only the pairs 0:42:37.239 --> 0:42:39.600 of teeth in the middle lower jaw that have the 0:42:39.680 --> 0:42:41.279 venom ducts right beneath them. 0:42:41.640 --> 0:42:43.400 Oh wow, it's kind of like one of those fighting 0:42:43.440 --> 0:42:46.400 games where you charge up an attack, you know, yeah, yeah, 0:42:46.640 --> 0:42:49.440 either rapidly pushing that button or like holding back or 0:42:49.480 --> 0:42:50.759 holding down a button. 0:42:50.680 --> 0:42:52.840 I was thinking of in D and D, like applying 0:42:52.920 --> 0:42:55.720 poison to all of your arrows before the light starts. 0:42:55.880 --> 0:42:57.120 Yes, that's a good one too. 0:42:57.760 --> 0:43:01.480 However, one thing you can say about Helo monster in 0:43:01.640 --> 0:43:06.680 venomation is if the delivery system feels unsophisticated, the chewing 0:43:06.800 --> 0:43:10.040 venom into the wound feels a little crude, the venom 0:43:10.280 --> 0:43:17.120 itself is highly sophisticated. It is this fascinating, diverse, complex 0:43:17.239 --> 0:43:23.759 cocktail of dozens of different bioactive agents, compounds, proteins, peptides, 0:43:23.800 --> 0:43:27.560 all hormones, all different kinds of things, producing a wide 0:43:27.840 --> 0:43:31.640 range of toxic effects. And there are some sources that 0:43:31.719 --> 0:43:35.000 indicate it might be a more than the some of 0:43:35.040 --> 0:43:39.520 its parts kind of situation where scientists have done a 0:43:39.560 --> 0:43:44.160 lot of work isolating individual toxins from the Helo Monster's 0:43:44.200 --> 0:43:46.640 venom and trying to understand them and trying to see 0:43:46.640 --> 0:43:49.840 what they do. Of course, this will have major implications 0:43:49.880 --> 0:43:53.080 for pharmaceuticals that we can probably discuss in the next 0:43:53.080 --> 0:43:55.280 part in the series or at some point in the series. 0:43:55.760 --> 0:44:00.360 So a huge array of interesting and powerful bio active 0:44:00.400 --> 0:44:03.680 agents throughout this venom, but in some cases it has 0:44:03.719 --> 0:44:07.680 been found that certain toxins within the venom are more 0:44:07.840 --> 0:44:11.399 potent within the venom at what they do than they 0:44:11.440 --> 0:44:14.200 are when they're isolated. So again, it might be more 0:44:14.239 --> 0:44:17.879 than the sum of its parts. And of course some 0:44:17.920 --> 0:44:21.040 of these things found in the venom or have been 0:44:21.040 --> 0:44:23.879 the source of revolutionary drug discoveries. Again, we'll come back 0:44:23.920 --> 0:44:26.520 to that, but I want to talk first about just 0:44:26.640 --> 0:44:28.680 what's it like to be bitten by a HeLa monster. 0:44:29.760 --> 0:44:35.440 First of all, incredibly unbelievably painful. People often describe it 0:44:35.520 --> 0:44:39.120 as like being on fire. There is a fire that 0:44:39.200 --> 0:44:42.680 you can't put out in your flesh. Another simile that 0:44:42.719 --> 0:44:46.359 I have seen multiple times is molten hot lava has 0:44:46.560 --> 0:44:51.239 entered your bloodstream. It's like something is burning hot and 0:44:51.320 --> 0:44:54.800 it is flowing inside you now. And this is because 0:44:54.800 --> 0:44:59.719 in many cases, the excruciating pain is not only localized 0:44:59.760 --> 0:45:02.040 at the the source of the bite. It is there, 0:45:02.080 --> 0:45:05.200 but it also tends to radiate back toward the core 0:45:05.280 --> 0:45:08.160 of the body. So, for example, people who are bitten 0:45:08.200 --> 0:45:12.600 on the hand often describe a sense of extreme, unbearable 0:45:12.680 --> 0:45:16.400 burning pain that climbs up the arm and into the shoulder, 0:45:16.800 --> 0:45:21.120 which creates distress in itself because there's this feeling of 0:45:21.160 --> 0:45:22.840 how far is it going to go and when is 0:45:22.880 --> 0:45:27.320 it going to stop. People who have experienced it usually 0:45:27.360 --> 0:45:29.560 say it is the worst pain they have ever felt. 0:45:30.400 --> 0:45:33.640 Beyond that, there are a bunch of systemic effects that 0:45:33.680 --> 0:45:37.719 have been documented, some frequently, some occasionally, so it's not 0:45:37.800 --> 0:45:41.080 always exactly the same array of effects, and I can't 0:45:41.080 --> 0:45:46.040 list every reaction ever documented, but the large list includes 0:45:46.760 --> 0:45:50.000 reduction in blood flow through the carotid artery, which is 0:45:50.000 --> 0:45:51.960 going to mean reduced blood flow to the head and 0:45:52.000 --> 0:45:56.440 the brain, a drop in blood pressure. Tachycardia is a 0:45:56.640 --> 0:46:00.440 rapid heart rate when resting, and just general cardio weirdness 0:46:00.480 --> 0:46:06.080 messing with your heart rate and your circulation. General trouble breathing, 0:46:06.120 --> 0:46:09.360 a lot of different kinds of strange breathing, maybe shortness 0:46:09.360 --> 0:46:14.440 of breath or difficulty with breathing in different ways. Edema, 0:46:14.600 --> 0:46:17.920 which is swelling caused by fluid retention in body tissues. 0:46:17.960 --> 0:46:19.799 I think this is going to be especially around the 0:46:19.840 --> 0:46:23.480 area of the bite. Hypothermia which is a drop in 0:46:23.520 --> 0:46:28.600 core body temperature, nausea and vomiting and other gastrointestinal distress 0:46:29.040 --> 0:46:33.080 and internal hemorrhage and major organs, and the lungs, eyes, 0:46:33.280 --> 0:46:36.440 digestive tract and other organs. I've seen people who suffered 0:46:36.440 --> 0:46:42.080 helo monster bites talking about blood in their urine, so surprisingly, 0:46:42.239 --> 0:46:45.520 despite how alarming that list is. We mentioned this earlier, 0:46:45.600 --> 0:46:48.640 but it's kind of hard to believe that human death 0:46:48.680 --> 0:46:53.080 from heloderma bites is very rare. There are only a 0:46:53.239 --> 0:46:57.400 couple of possible cases of fatal bites and humans in 0:46:57.440 --> 0:47:02.040 the past century. One of them is in dispute. Another 0:47:02.080 --> 0:47:04.520 one was that one that's pretty recent that we talked about, 0:47:04.520 --> 0:47:06.640 the one in twenty twenty four, the man in Colorado 0:47:06.680 --> 0:47:09.600 who was bitten by a pet. And in cases where 0:47:09.600 --> 0:47:13.200 death occurs, it seems usually to result from disturbances to breathing. 0:47:14.120 --> 0:47:18.319 Yeah, I've read that in general, not referring to any 0:47:18.320 --> 0:47:22.480 specific case here, but I've read that in general the 0:47:22.520 --> 0:47:25.560 effects of a helo monster bite can be considerably worsened 0:47:26.040 --> 0:47:29.399 if alcohol is in the human's bloodstream. And I think 0:47:29.440 --> 0:47:31.120 this may be applies more to some of the more 0:47:31.239 --> 0:47:34.840 historic alleged accounts, where we can sort of imagine a 0:47:34.880 --> 0:47:38.680 cowboy scenario right where cowboys bitten by the HeLa monster. 0:47:38.920 --> 0:47:40.239 What are you going to do? Well, we got to 0:47:40.239 --> 0:47:43.239 get out the old medical kit, which is mostly a 0:47:43.280 --> 0:47:47.760 bottle of whiskey. Have some whiskey for that helo monster bite. 0:47:47.800 --> 0:47:49.520 It's just going to accelerate the venom. 0:47:50.200 --> 0:47:52.080 I can imagine it the other way too, like the 0:47:52.120 --> 0:47:54.800 cowboy's been getting into the whisky, which is what causes 0:47:54.800 --> 0:47:56.959 the cowboy to start messing with the heli mons. 0:47:57.080 --> 0:48:02.520 Yeah exactly, because again, most of the examples that have 0:48:02.560 --> 0:48:05.239 been recorded where someone gets bitten by helo monsters becaus 0:48:05.239 --> 0:48:07.600 a person was actively handling a helo monster. 0:48:07.840 --> 0:48:12.279 Yeah. So Beck mentions differing effects of the venom on 0:48:12.400 --> 0:48:15.280 other animals. What I was just talking about was mainly 0:48:16.040 --> 0:48:18.800 what's been documented in humans, but there have been studies 0:48:18.840 --> 0:48:23.200 on what happens in dogs and cats and mice. Apparently, 0:48:23.320 --> 0:48:26.680 doses that are below the lethal dose in rodents like 0:48:26.760 --> 0:48:31.880 mice and rats tend to cause protruding eyes and periorbital bleeding. 0:48:32.360 --> 0:48:32.520 Oh. 0:48:33.239 --> 0:48:39.480 Bizarrely, research has found that invertebrates seem to be basically 0:48:39.520 --> 0:48:42.520 immune to the effects of heloderma venom. So it's kind 0:48:42.520 --> 0:48:46.040 of a special treat for US vertebrates. The LD fifty 0:48:46.160 --> 0:48:48.280 to the extent that it's been studied, and then that's 0:48:48.320 --> 0:48:51.520 the dose at which fifty percent of you know, the 0:48:51.560 --> 0:48:55.320 studied animal like mice in a lab scenario are killed 0:48:55.360 --> 0:48:59.000 by the venom. The ld fifty seems to vary a 0:48:59.040 --> 0:49:02.319 lot in different studies, and this, at least in part, 0:49:02.400 --> 0:49:05.960 seems to be because the ad mixture of venom and 0:49:05.960 --> 0:49:08.680 saliva is not constant. But it just seems like, you know, 0:49:08.800 --> 0:49:12.320 venom lots that are taken from these animals in nature 0:49:12.320 --> 0:49:14.920 are just not going to be of a consistent level 0:49:14.960 --> 0:49:15.680 of potency. 0:49:16.880 --> 0:49:18.200 And this of course reminds us of that, you know, 0:49:18.400 --> 0:49:21.960 those previous accounts or someone said, oh, do don't worry 0:49:22.000 --> 0:49:23.840 about they're not venomous. I got bit by one and 0:49:23.880 --> 0:49:27.920 it's fine. It can be a variable amount of the 0:49:28.000 --> 0:49:29.520 venom present in the saliva. 0:49:30.640 --> 0:49:33.359 Now, this brings us to the question of what is 0:49:33.440 --> 0:49:37.760 the venom for Beck discusses this extensively in the book. 0:49:38.200 --> 0:49:41.640 Apparently for many years this was a subject of confusion 0:49:41.680 --> 0:49:44.960 about Heloderma. Is the venom system of the HeLa monster 0:49:45.120 --> 0:49:49.000 and the beaded lizard? Is it used for predation or defense? 0:49:49.600 --> 0:49:53.000 In relatives like the venom of snakes, venom is mainly 0:49:53.160 --> 0:49:56.200 used for predation. It can be used for defense as well, 0:49:56.200 --> 0:49:59.799 but it's necessary for predation because the venom is used 0:50:00.120 --> 0:50:05.280 you subdue and either kill or immobilize, and then sometimes 0:50:05.280 --> 0:50:10.160 to digest prey. This is important because venomous snakes often 0:50:10.200 --> 0:50:13.799 prey on animals that are relatively large and could be 0:50:14.040 --> 0:50:18.239 dangerous to the predator, as in, they could inflict injuries 0:50:18.280 --> 0:50:20.640 on the snake if they were able to fight back. 0:50:21.160 --> 0:50:24.280 So in many venomous snakes, venom tends to cause things 0:50:24.280 --> 0:50:28.640 like low blood pressure, blood clotting, and just tissue destruction 0:50:28.840 --> 0:50:32.880 enzymatic destruction of tissue, often the tissue lining the blood vessels. 0:50:33.840 --> 0:50:36.759 Some venomus snakes also make use of neurotoxins that can 0:50:36.800 --> 0:50:40.319 cause muscle paralysis, and this can first of all, it 0:50:40.360 --> 0:50:42.880 can immobilize prey, but it can also kill prey by 0:50:42.960 --> 0:50:47.400 halting respiration, leading to death. And Beck mentions that some 0:50:47.960 --> 0:50:51.960 snake venom may also play a role in helping snakes 0:50:52.120 --> 0:50:54.799 pre digest their meals, which is beautiful. 0:50:55.120 --> 0:50:56.839 It's kind of breaking it down a little bit. 0:50:56.920 --> 0:51:02.040 Yeah, but there is a pretty significant difference between the 0:51:02.239 --> 0:51:05.880 kind of invenomation we see from snakes and what we 0:51:05.960 --> 0:51:10.680 get from heloderma. So a dose of heloderma venom from 0:51:10.680 --> 0:51:13.920 a bite. While brutally painful, it tends to be a 0:51:13.920 --> 0:51:17.400 little more locally concentrated in its effects, has less of 0:51:17.400 --> 0:51:22.680 a tissue destroying effect, and so Beck argues that Heloderma 0:51:22.800 --> 0:51:27.080 venom seems less specialized for subduing prey and thus is 0:51:27.120 --> 0:51:31.799 probably more important for defense than for predation, because, again 0:51:32.040 --> 0:51:34.000 coming back to what we talked about earlier, looking at 0:51:34.000 --> 0:51:37.800 their ecology, how do they survive and interact with their environment? 0:51:38.120 --> 0:51:42.759 Heloderma lizards are nest rating specialists. They attack eggs or 0:51:42.800 --> 0:51:47.240 the helpless young of other animals, primarily birds and small mammals. 0:51:47.719 --> 0:51:51.480 So there are you know, just you don't need a 0:51:51.719 --> 0:51:55.520 venom to subdue a baby cotton tail rabbit or to 0:51:55.560 --> 0:51:59.480 subdue an egg. You know these prey are they're not 0:51:59.600 --> 0:52:02.759 very large, they're not very dangerous, and thus there's not 0:52:02.880 --> 0:52:05.600 a big reason to see why lizards would need venom 0:52:05.680 --> 0:52:07.080 in order to bring them down. 0:52:07.440 --> 0:52:10.640 Like the monster setting out, it's got like this big rifle. 0:52:10.680 --> 0:52:12.080 It's like what are you what are you hunting there? 0:52:12.080 --> 0:52:14.759 And he's like, uh, egg doesn't make sense. 0:52:14.840 --> 0:52:19.840 Yeah. Also, Heloderma venom does not seem to have the 0:52:19.880 --> 0:52:23.160 tissue destroying capacities that would indicate that it is used 0:52:23.160 --> 0:52:25.680 to help predigest prey, like it might be in the 0:52:25.680 --> 0:52:29.000 case of some snakes. And then Beck also talks about 0:52:29.080 --> 0:52:33.040 how field observations don't seem to indicate that heel monsters 0:52:33.320 --> 0:52:38.120 use their venom for predation. So he's for one thing, 0:52:38.280 --> 0:52:40.359 you know, there's not like with a snake you would 0:52:40.400 --> 0:52:43.320 need to bite and then wait for the venom to work. 0:52:43.400 --> 0:52:45.640 I mean, so you might bite and then back off 0:52:45.680 --> 0:52:49.120 and then attack or bite and then wait before trying 0:52:49.120 --> 0:52:53.360 to swallow. But Beck talks about how you know the 0:52:53.360 --> 0:52:57.719 heel monsters they're gonna eat baby rabbits or something, they 0:52:58.120 --> 0:53:00.319 just go in and just swallow them. You know, there's 0:53:00.360 --> 0:53:04.360 not like chewing, pumping, when the kind of stuff you 0:53:04.400 --> 0:53:07.680 would see when a snake needs to envenomate a prey 0:53:07.719 --> 0:53:10.600 animal in order to get it down. Beck does mention 0:53:10.719 --> 0:53:16.080 that in captivity sometimes he's observed HeLa monsters chewing on 0:53:16.520 --> 0:53:20.960 already dead mice that they're being fed, but that you know, 0:53:21.040 --> 0:53:23.120 that might be something else that might be a captivity 0:53:23.239 --> 0:53:29.240 induced behavior or something reflexive. But generally it just observations 0:53:29.320 --> 0:53:32.480 don't lend themselves to thinking that it has a feeding 0:53:32.560 --> 0:53:36.080 or predation function. He says, maybe it might have more 0:53:36.160 --> 0:53:40.560 of a predation function for juvenile lizards, Okay, like a 0:53:40.600 --> 0:53:44.920 much smaller HeLa monster going after say again a young rabbit. 0:53:45.320 --> 0:53:46.240 Maybe maybe rabbit. 0:53:46.640 --> 0:53:50.680 But it seems that it's much more effective for defense. 0:53:50.880 --> 0:53:54.319 So the main line of defense for helodermal lizards is 0:53:54.360 --> 0:53:57.640 going to be not venom, but hiding. They spend most 0:53:57.680 --> 0:54:01.000 of their time hiding in shelters. Now, of course, sometimes 0:54:01.000 --> 0:54:03.360 they have to come out of these shelters to pursue 0:54:03.400 --> 0:54:07.080 biological objectives like looking for food or looking for mates, 0:54:07.120 --> 0:54:09.719 so they go out a wandering and if they are 0:54:09.760 --> 0:54:13.680 caught out in the open, most of these well, for 0:54:13.719 --> 0:54:16.480 one thing, you can contrast it with what other species 0:54:16.520 --> 0:54:20.000 of lizards do. Most lizards, if they're caught out in 0:54:20.040 --> 0:54:22.680 the open, will just sprint away from the threat because 0:54:22.719 --> 0:54:26.520 they can move pretty fast. Heloderma lizards they're not fast movers. 0:54:26.600 --> 0:54:31.520 They are large, sluggish, relatively slow moving and yes, in fact, 0:54:31.560 --> 0:54:35.120 there are helo monster on a treadmill tests with peak 0:54:35.200 --> 0:54:38.799 speed clocked by Beck at one point seven kilometers per 0:54:38.840 --> 0:54:43.920 hour wo, so not super fast movers. Instead of running, 0:54:44.400 --> 0:54:48.360 they rely on a secondary defense, which is hiding in 0:54:48.440 --> 0:54:52.640 plain sight, so their color patterns can help camouflage them 0:54:52.680 --> 0:54:56.440 against the background, at least when the potential predator is 0:54:56.480 --> 0:55:00.160 at a distance. So if a predator comes with within 0:55:00.440 --> 0:55:04.479 the range the lizard senses them, the lizard will often 0:55:04.560 --> 0:55:08.320 freeze and press their bodies flat to the ground. However, 0:55:08.440 --> 0:55:11.319 if a predator already saw it and kept coming, the 0:55:11.360 --> 0:55:13.719 lizard would not be able to get away quickly enough. 0:55:14.040 --> 0:55:16.759 So now it makes ecological sense for them to have 0:55:16.880 --> 0:55:20.520 a third line of defense, which is venom. So the 0:55:20.560 --> 0:55:25.480 prescription here is bite, clamp, and hold on. Usually flood 0:55:25.520 --> 0:55:28.320 the venom up from the glands into the ducts around 0:55:28.320 --> 0:55:30.600 the teeth, flood the venom into the wound, and then 0:55:30.719 --> 0:55:35.040 chew more venom into the wound for the bite victim. 0:55:35.200 --> 0:55:39.280 This leads to the kinds of effects mentioned before, excruciating pain, 0:55:39.520 --> 0:55:44.200 drop in blood pressure, weakness, lethargy, internal hemorrhaging. It is 0:55:44.320 --> 0:55:49.080 not a pleasant experience. Now, Beck does note an interesting 0:55:49.200 --> 0:55:54.360 paradox if the venom is designed to drive predators away 0:55:55.080 --> 0:55:59.040 by making the prospect of tangling with a heloderma lizard 0:55:59.200 --> 0:56:04.759 super unpleasan why does the lizard clamp on and continue 0:56:04.760 --> 0:56:08.799 to risk injury? While the bite victim is fighting to 0:56:08.880 --> 0:56:12.879 remove it seems kind of counterproductive if the lizard's goal 0:56:13.040 --> 0:56:18.520 is to deter the predator and escape unharmed. Despite the 0:56:18.520 --> 0:56:24.280 apparent paradox. Here Beck discusses existing recorded observations of HeLa 0:56:24.320 --> 0:56:28.400 monsters biting both humans and dogs, and in both cases, 0:56:28.880 --> 0:56:33.640 the bite victim does not usually react by injuring the lizard. 0:56:33.760 --> 0:56:36.920 They will usually immediately panic and just try to get 0:56:36.960 --> 0:56:40.240 away to get the lizard off, which the bite victim 0:56:40.320 --> 0:56:44.480 eventually does, and in most cases this happens without the 0:56:44.560 --> 0:56:47.400 death or serious injury. Without the death of the lizard 0:56:47.480 --> 0:56:51.480 or serious injury, A couple of recorded cases have resulted 0:56:51.480 --> 0:56:55.000 in lizard deaths, so apparently the biting and clamping is 0:56:55.160 --> 0:56:58.840 in the field not one hundred percent safe for the lizard, 0:56:59.239 --> 0:57:02.960 but it does. The lizard usually does get away alive, 0:57:03.560 --> 0:57:05.960 and I think one way of interpreting this is that 0:57:06.040 --> 0:57:09.399 there is just sort of a calculus a trade off 0:57:09.520 --> 0:57:13.480 that the lizard's biology is making here. So if the 0:57:13.520 --> 0:57:17.640 lizard can hang on longer and can chew more venom 0:57:17.720 --> 0:57:20.760 into the wound, you are more likely to produce an 0:57:20.840 --> 0:57:26.280 intense and overwhelming reaction in the bitten predatory animal, which 0:57:26.400 --> 0:57:30.680 I think thereafter reduces the effect that the animal comes 0:57:30.720 --> 0:57:33.400 back and still tries to kill or eat the lizard 0:57:33.480 --> 0:57:38.360 a second time. So, even though there is risk to 0:57:38.560 --> 0:57:41.800 the lizard from clamping on and continuing it to attack, 0:57:42.360 --> 0:57:47.200 it doesn't have a fast, efficient venom delivery system like 0:57:47.280 --> 0:57:49.760 the you know, the fangs of a viper or like 0:57:49.800 --> 0:57:52.960 a snake that can bite quickly, inject tons of venom 0:57:53.000 --> 0:57:56.400 really fast, and then run away. It has to sort 0:57:56.400 --> 0:57:59.600 of keep chewing and grinding to get more venom in there. 0:58:00.360 --> 0:58:05.200 And the evolutionary calculus has concluded that sometimes it makes 0:58:05.240 --> 0:58:07.840 sense for the lizard to have an instinct to bite 0:58:07.840 --> 0:58:10.960 and hold on and deliver more venom, even if that's 0:58:11.000 --> 0:58:14.880 going to keep the lizard initially exposed to the predator 0:58:14.920 --> 0:58:19.560 for longer. I think because a more venomated predatory animal 0:58:19.600 --> 0:58:21.800 is going to be less dangerous to you after the 0:58:21.800 --> 0:58:22.760 bite is released. 0:58:23.480 --> 0:58:25.680 You know, this is just pure guesswork on my part, 0:58:25.720 --> 0:58:33.400 but the fact that in some cases we have accounts 0:58:33.520 --> 0:58:36.360 of the lizard being killed while it's still attached, I 0:58:36.400 --> 0:58:38.400 wonder how many of those cases are going to be 0:58:38.480 --> 0:58:42.520 very specific a to humans and to tool using humans. 0:58:42.520 --> 0:58:45.200 Something that of course, a hate monster would not have 0:58:45.920 --> 0:58:48.600 evolved to cope with like if they have not evolved 0:58:48.600 --> 0:58:51.840 to cope with, say a pocket knife or I don't know, 0:58:51.880 --> 0:58:54.280 a revolver or something like that. Yeah. 0:58:54.320 --> 0:58:56.000 I think that's a good point. And I think if 0:58:56.120 --> 0:58:59.840 you just look more at the kinds of predator encounters 0:58:59.840 --> 0:59:02.640 the lizard is going to be having in its natural environment, 0:59:03.200 --> 0:59:05.960 what you generally get is just that the predator that 0:59:06.000 --> 0:59:09.400 has been bitten and venomated is going to be focused 0:59:09.560 --> 0:59:12.320 entirely on getting away from the lizard and taking care 0:59:12.360 --> 0:59:15.400 of its wounds. The motivation to eat the lizard by 0:59:15.440 --> 0:59:19.840 a natural predator is immediately deprioritized, and the lizard can 0:59:19.960 --> 0:59:23.400 escape if it survives, you know, the biting itself. 0:59:23.800 --> 0:59:25.120 Yeah, I just want to get it off of me, 0:59:25.520 --> 0:59:27.520 and then I want to get away from here. Yeah. 0:59:27.600 --> 0:59:31.320 So, and Beck argues that a major effect of the 0:59:31.360 --> 0:59:36.680 tenacious bite and the prolonged in venomation maybe to promote 0:59:36.880 --> 0:59:41.840 learning in predatory animals that it promotes, maybe in the 0:59:41.920 --> 0:59:45.480 one instance, a learning in that individual animal that it's 0:59:45.480 --> 0:59:47.640 not going to approach a lizard that looks like this again, 0:59:47.680 --> 0:59:52.440 and could also over evolutionary time by reducing the fitness 0:59:52.600 --> 0:59:56.440 of animals that have been bitten. It could produce evolutionary 0:59:56.560 --> 1:00:01.120 learning instinctual learning, where like animals, the predatory animals that 1:00:01.200 --> 1:00:05.240 avoid lizards that look like this are favored evolutionarily and 1:00:05.280 --> 1:00:08.479 thus eventually the predator species are less likely to mess 1:00:08.520 --> 1:00:08.919 with them. 1:00:09.480 --> 1:00:13.480 Okay, so it's an educational initiative. I'm the part of 1:00:13.480 --> 1:00:14.320 the Helo monsters. 1:00:15.160 --> 1:00:17.360 Anyway, it should go without saying at this point, but 1:00:17.440 --> 1:00:19.560 I think if there's one main takeaway from all this, 1:00:19.760 --> 1:00:22.840 it is just don't mess with helo monsters. This is 1:00:22.880 --> 1:00:25.560 not a lizard worth poking if you find it in nature, 1:00:26.840 --> 1:00:30.120 just you know, keep your distance, observe respectfully from afar. 1:00:30.560 --> 1:00:33.520 That's right, that's right, look at pictures and if you 1:00:33.520 --> 1:00:35.400 get a chance, if you do get a chance to 1:00:35.400 --> 1:00:37.560 see them in the wild, yes, do keep your distance. 1:00:38.720 --> 1:00:42.360 And if you see them at a zoo, well enjoy 1:00:42.400 --> 1:00:45.200 the treat of watching them. Probably sleep for an extended 1:00:45.200 --> 1:00:48.720 period of time. But yeah, still fabulous animals and I 1:00:48.760 --> 1:00:53.200 look forward to talking about them more in at least one, 1:00:53.280 --> 1:00:56.880 possibly two more episodes, because there's a lot more to cover. 1:00:57.440 --> 1:01:01.640 There are a lot of indigenous to about the HeLa 1:01:01.680 --> 1:01:04.680 monster like to get into. There are various sort of 1:01:04.720 --> 1:01:08.440 frontier myths about them as well that are pretty amusing 1:01:08.480 --> 1:01:11.240 and in some cases maybe insightful into the way humans 1:01:11.240 --> 1:01:14.480 were interacting with them. And then we're going to get 1:01:14.480 --> 1:01:19.160 into their role in pharmacology totally. All right, Well, in 1:01:19.200 --> 1:01:22.000 the meantime, I do write in if you have anything 1:01:22.040 --> 1:01:24.240 already you want to share with us about HeLa monsters 1:01:24.440 --> 1:01:29.600 field reports if you will. We're also open to any 1:01:29.640 --> 1:01:32.520 kind of info you want to send in regarding Helo 1:01:32.560 --> 1:01:35.480 monsters popping up in movies. There's a website that we 1:01:35.520 --> 1:01:38.160 always love to check out anytime that the subject of 1:01:38.200 --> 1:01:40.800 herbs and film comes up, and it's California herbs dot com. 1:01:40.960 --> 1:01:42.760 They have a whole section where you can look up. 1:01:43.120 --> 1:01:45.040 You can see what herbs have been in what movies, 1:01:45.040 --> 1:01:46.960 and what they were doing in them, how they were treated, 1:01:47.640 --> 1:01:50.440 and they have a listing for the HeLa monster, and 1:01:50.480 --> 1:01:52.880 it's an interesting selection of films. I was looking at this, 1:01:53.000 --> 1:01:56.720 and of course you have concerning Helo monsters and Beat 1:01:56.720 --> 1:01:59.760 of the Lizards. You have some pretty obvious inclusions there, 1:01:59.800 --> 1:02:03.080 but also like some classic westerns are just popping up 1:02:03.080 --> 1:02:06.400 in as part of the sort of background you know 1:02:06.960 --> 1:02:09.840 Frontier World. They pop up in Butch Casting The Sundance Kid, 1:02:09.880 --> 1:02:12.640 for example. No, I forgot about that. Yeah, what do 1:02:12.720 --> 1:02:13.160 they when? 1:02:13.440 --> 1:02:14.760 When do they show up in the movie? 1:02:14.840 --> 1:02:18.439 I think The Sundance Kid shoots a Helo monster. Oh yeah, 1:02:18.520 --> 1:02:22.040 yeah that. They show up in various older westerns to Florida, 1:02:22.120 --> 1:02:24.439 pache and then, of course there is the nineteen fifty 1:02:24.520 --> 1:02:27.160 nine film The Giant HeLa Monster, in which the HeLa 1:02:27.200 --> 1:02:30.439 Monster is played by a beaded lizard, so not even 1:02:30.440 --> 1:02:33.360 an actual HeLa monster. They couldn't get him. His asking 1:02:33.400 --> 1:02:36.840 price was too high. So do do write in if 1:02:36.880 --> 1:02:39.760 you have anything to share, Just a reminder of everyone 1:02:39.760 --> 1:02:41.880 out there. 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