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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 2: is Robert.

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Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick.

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Speaker 2: In this episode and suffsequent episodes of Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 2: Your Mind, we are going to be talking about the

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Speaker 2: HeLa Monster. I don't know about you, Joe, but the

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Speaker 2: HeLa monster has long been one of my favorite herbs,

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Speaker 2: in part clearly because it's the only it was, I think,

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Speaker 2: at least growing up, the only natural world animal for

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Speaker 2: me officially labeled as a monster. So that's certainly connected

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Speaker 2: with me as a kid. I mean, you had Cookie Monster,

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Speaker 2: you had the HeLa Monster, So there is a natural

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Speaker 2: attraction there, though there to be clear, as we'll be discussing,

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Speaker 2: there are plenty of other reasons to love these.

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Speaker 3: Creatures definitely attractive and also includes some hidden monstrous It's

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Speaker 3: like there are some of the things that might make

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Speaker 3: it the most monstrous are things that you wouldn't see

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Speaker 3: just looking at a picture of the lizard taken in

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Speaker 3: nature and like a National geographic magazine. One of the

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Speaker 3: most monstrous things about it, not to skip too far ahead,

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Speaker 3: is the way like its bones look or its skull

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Speaker 3: looks if you don't have all the cute, kind of fleshy,

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Speaker 3: pudgy scan around it that. I'm sure we'll discuss that

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Speaker 3: in more detail later, but that was a real shocker

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Speaker 3: for me when I in this episode came across a

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Speaker 3: CT scan of a HeLa monster head. It's got some

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Speaker 3: stuff going on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, it's gonna be fun to get into

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Speaker 2: all of that. But just on the surface, you know,

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Speaker 2: they don't necessarily look all that monstrous. If you've gotten

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Speaker 2: to see one live, then you've probably seen one at

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Speaker 2: a zoo, as I have. That's the only place I've

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Speaker 2: ever seen live HeLa monsters, and you know, they're generally

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Speaker 2: not doing much. They're just letting there. You know, you

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Speaker 2: might suspect they are fake because they're they're just resting,

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Speaker 2: and they spend a lot of time doing just that,

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Speaker 2: but still visually very interesting. They have that signature pink

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Speaker 2: slash orange and black colorization, and their general character, at

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Speaker 2: least in my opinion, is this is kind of adorable,

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Speaker 2: kind of comfy. There's something kind of laid back about

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Speaker 2: these lizards.

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Speaker 3: I don't recall if I've seen a HeLa monster at

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Speaker 3: a zoo, but I've seen another Heloderma lizard, very similar species,

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Speaker 3: the Mexican beaded lizard.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that one is maybe a little more

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Speaker 2: common at zoos. I know the zoo here in Atlanta

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Speaker 2: used to have some HeLa monsters and they might have

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Speaker 2: them again now. I haven't been in several months.

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Speaker 3: When I was recently looking at one of these things

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Speaker 3: at a zoo with my daughter, it did not move

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Speaker 3: at all. It was just a big kind of a

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Speaker 3: just a log in its tank, just sitting there, and

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Speaker 3: she didn't seem all that interested in it, maybe because

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Speaker 3: it wasn't moving.

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Speaker 2: Did you did you not remind her that this is

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Speaker 2: a monster? You were looking at a monster, real life monster?

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Speaker 3: Didn't break through?

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Speaker 2: Well, where do these monsters live where? They are native

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Speaker 2: to the southwestern United States and to the northwestern Mexican

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Speaker 2: state of Sonora, But they are a rare sighting in

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Speaker 2: the wild. So just some personal documentation here. I have

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Speaker 2: family uncle and aunt on my wife's side in Arizona.

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Speaker 2: They've lived there since nineteen sixty nine, and they've always

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Speaker 2: been very active and outdoorsy, you know, going on hikes,

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Speaker 2: horseback riding, that sort of thing, you know, always getting

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Speaker 2: out there, and they're still getting out there, and I

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Speaker 2: had to ask them both about it, texting them earlier

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Speaker 2: in the week, and each of them has only ever

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Speaker 2: seen a HeLa monster once in the wild. One of

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Speaker 2: them saw a HeLa monster on a hiking trail, crossing

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Speaker 2: the trail, and then another saw one sunning itself on

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Speaker 2: some rocks during a morning horse ride. So I think

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Speaker 2: this is just a small sample size, and I'd love

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Speaker 2: to hear from any other people who've spent significant amounts

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Speaker 2: of time within the range of the Heela Monster. But

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Speaker 2: I think it does speak volumes for how secluded these

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Speaker 2: creatures tend to be.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you are not likely to see them very often

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Speaker 3: for two reasons, I would say. One is that they

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Speaker 3: tend to spend the majority of their time hiding in

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Speaker 3: burrows or in shelters, and then the other part is

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Speaker 3: that when they are out in the open, they have

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Speaker 3: these color patterns on them, which actually can help them

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Speaker 3: blend in quite well. You might have seen one and

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Speaker 3: not seen it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, it'd be interesting to discuss their camouflage in

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Speaker 2: these episodes because it's kind of My understanding is it's

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Speaker 2: kind of both. It's like on one hand, from a distance,

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Speaker 2: their colorization can lead can lead to a camouflaged effect,

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Speaker 2: make them more difficult to see. But then when you

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Speaker 2: get closer, it is more of an alarming visual signature

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Speaker 2: warning you you should not mess with this creature for

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Speaker 2: reasons that we will discuss now. I've of course been

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Speaker 2: visiting Arizona for I think it this point almost twenty years,

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Speaker 2: and I've certainly never seen one of these creatures in

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Speaker 2: the wild. It's always been in the back of my

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Speaker 2: mind It's like a helo monster episode would be good.

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Speaker 2: But it was actually on my recent visit to Denver, Colorado,

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Speaker 2: that I decided, oh yeah, definitely need to pull the

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Speaker 2: trigger on this. This is a place well outside the

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Speaker 2: HeLa monsters range. But there was a great volunteer led

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Speaker 2: exhibit at the museum titled Nature's Medicine Cabinet, which featured

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Speaker 2: helo monsters among various other profile organisms that had either

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Speaker 2: been traditionally used in human medicine generally plants as well

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Speaker 2: as animals that had come into play had come to

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Speaker 2: play a key role due to advancements in peptides. Of note,

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Speaker 2: while helas don't naturally live in Denver, the city played

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Speaker 2: host to the only known human fatality from a helo

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Speaker 2: monster bite in the last century, when a man who

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Speaker 2: kept them as pets in Denver suffered a fatal bite.

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Speaker 3: I think there is a disputed case of acclaimed HeLa

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Speaker 3: monster death from nineteen thirty or so, but one of

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Speaker 3: the authors we're going to talk about casts some doubt

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Speaker 3: on the veracity of that one. But yeah, I also

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Speaker 3: read about the same case in Colorado. But as we

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Speaker 3: will discuss later on, while the venom of the heel

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Speaker 3: monster is quite a cocktail, it is incredibly potent. It

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Speaker 3: There are a lot of documented helo monster bites and

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Speaker 3: almost none of them have resulted in death, So very potent,

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Speaker 3: something you absolutely do not want to experience for reasons

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Speaker 3: that we will talk about, but usually not fatal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and to be clear, we'll drive this again and

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Speaker 2: again as well. This is not a creature you need

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Speaker 2: to be afraid of. Your chances of an encountering one

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Speaker 2: in the wild are so rare. Really, the people who

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Speaker 2: have been bitten by them are generally actively handling them.

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Speaker 2: They have sought them out, or they have them as pets,

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Speaker 2: and so that's just not going to happen. If you

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Speaker 2: were if you were doing anything outdoors or indoors within

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Speaker 2: thee of the HeLa monster. There's a long list of

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Speaker 2: things that are more dangerous to you ahead of that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the I was reading the exact same thing.

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Speaker 3: It's not like you might read about rattlesnake bites, where

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Speaker 3: sometimes it's just a chance encounter. You step in the

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Speaker 3: wrong place, so you accidentally come across one and there's

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Speaker 3: a strike. With the heel monster, it is almost entirely

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Speaker 3: a case of people intentionally messing with these animals that

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Speaker 3: results in bites. It's not one where they're going to

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Speaker 3: sneak up and get you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. But before we dive in a little bit

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Speaker 2: more here, I just want to mention a couple of

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Speaker 2: sources that we were referring to here. I guess the

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Speaker 2: big one is Biology of HeLa Monsters and Beaded Lizards

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Speaker 2: by Daniel D. Beck, University of California Press.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I looked up Daniel D.

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Speaker 2: Beck.

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Speaker 3: He's a biology professor. I think he's retired now, but

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Speaker 3: he was affiliated with Central Washington University.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And then text that I was at more general

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Speaker 2: herb text that I've been looking at as a slightly

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Speaker 2: older piece from Age published nineteen ninety eight, though I

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Speaker 2: think the addition I have is a more revised edition

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Speaker 2: from like two thousand and five. It is Encyclopedia of

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Speaker 2: Reptiles and Amphibian second Edition by Harold G. Kauger and

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Speaker 2: Richard G. Zwiffel. Also a nice text. And we're also

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Speaker 2: going to refer to some more recent studies concerning the

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Speaker 2: HeLa Monster, because one of the amazing things that I've

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Speaker 2: seen pointed out is that despite the fact that the

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Speaker 2: HeLa Monster is pretty famous, it is like a sports mascot,

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Speaker 2: and you know, and everybody knows about it. It's shown

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Speaker 2: up in numerous films, sometimes at least once, well more

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Speaker 2: than once in the starring role, not necessarily Oscar worthy pictures.

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Speaker 2: But you can't blame the Helo Monster. That's more the

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Speaker 2: agents of fault forgetting the Helo Monster these gigs. But movies, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's sort of they and some more recent films in

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Speaker 2: that sort of vein. But yeah, despite it being such

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Speaker 2: a well known creature, there are certain aspects of its

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Speaker 2: biology that are as yet not fully understood or certainly

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Speaker 2: where we've been catching up in recent years figuring exactly

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Speaker 2: how they work. All right, Well, let's dive into it

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Speaker 2: a bit more. What sort of lizard is the HeLa monster.

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Speaker 2: Let's narrow it down. They're technically beaded lizards of the

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Speaker 2: family helo dermat today and its sole genus Heloderma. It's

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Speaker 2: a small family, small genus with previously, I believe only

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Speaker 2: five recognized extant species native to the Americas, including the

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Speaker 2: HeLa monster, the Mexican beaded lizard, and the Guatemalan beaded lizard. Historically,

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Speaker 2: we thought there were only two Mexican beated lizard and

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Speaker 2: the Helo monster. So many older sources are going to

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Speaker 2: reflect that all of them are venomous, the only venomous

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Speaker 2: extant lizards, and the Helo monster is generally singled out

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Speaker 2: as being the only literal venomous lizard native to the

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Speaker 2: United States.

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Speaker 3: I had a bit of confusion when I was reading

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Speaker 3: about this, because several sources I was reading refer to

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Speaker 3: the Heloderma lizards, the small family of species, as the

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Speaker 3: only venomous lizards on Earth, and yet there are some

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Speaker 3: other lizard species I think, mostly monitor lizards like the

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Speaker 3: Komodo dragon, that also do have some kind of venom.

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Speaker 3: I think this might come down to distinctions that specialists

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Speaker 3: make about, like how the venom is delivered and what

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Speaker 3: its primary function is. So there is some other venom

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Speaker 3: in lizards out there, but these in some special way

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Speaker 3: are like the most primarily venomous lizards.

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Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, yeah, yeah, to be clear, Yeah, the monitor

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Speaker 2: lizards of Africa, Asia, Indonesia, and Australia are also venomous

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Speaker 2: and thought to be thought to be closely related in

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Speaker 2: the grand scheme of things here. And this does include

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Speaker 2: the mighty komodo dragons of Indonesia, which have an anticoagulant

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Speaker 2: and I believe neurotoxic venom, but mostly is noted for

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Speaker 2: its blood thinning properties. So, like you know, a komodo

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Speaker 2: dragon bites its prey, it inflicts a pretty dire wound,

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Speaker 2: and a wound that is also going to drain out

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Speaker 2: a lot faster.

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Speaker 3: Years ago, I remember us talking about this idea that

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Speaker 3: had been floating around for a long time that the

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Speaker 3: komodo dragon in particular had weaponized pathogenic bacteria in its

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Speaker 3: mouth so that it would like bite its prey. I

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Speaker 3: guess the idea is it would bite its prey and

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Speaker 3: this would cause an infection and then later the komodo

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Speaker 3: dragon could take advantage of this and take down the prey.

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Speaker 3: This apparently used to be a pretty popular theory, but

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Speaker 3: recent research has turned against it. So I was reading

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Speaker 3: some articles about this, quoting a toxicologist named Brian Frye

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Speaker 3: at the University of Queensland who talks about how actually

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Speaker 3: komodo dragon mouths are not especially they don't have a

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Speaker 3: specially dangerous bacteria in them. In fact, they're relatively clean

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Speaker 3: as far as animal mouths go. Kimodo dragons spend a

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Speaker 3: lot of time cleaning their mouths, kind of licking and

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Speaker 3: smacking their lips and rubbing their heads on things in

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Speaker 3: the environment, like rubbing their mouths against leaves to try

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Speaker 3: to clean them off after meals. So you have this

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Speaker 3: old idea of the kimodo dragons with rotting meat in

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Speaker 3: their teeth or something, and this kind host bacteria that

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Speaker 3: will infect the prey animal after it gets a bite

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Speaker 3: from the komodo dragon. That seems to be not really

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Speaker 3: the case. Their mouths are not really different from the

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Speaker 3: mouths of other carnivores, and fry says that they just

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Speaker 3: don't have enough bacteria in their mouths to really harm

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Speaker 3: an injured animal anymore than you would expect a bite

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Speaker 3: of any animal too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and this makes sense on several grounds. For starters,

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Speaker 2: we know that while komodo dragons are voracious eaters, they

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Speaker 2: consume something like all but twelve percent of a body,

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Speaker 2: tearing it apart with their strong foe loombs and serrated teeth, which,

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Speaker 2: by the way, sets monitor lizards in general apart from

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Speaker 2: most reptiles, aside from I believe sea turtles in that

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Speaker 2: they're not swallowing prey whole. They're you know, tearing it up.

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Speaker 2: They but but yeah, they're they're in their own way fastidious.

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Speaker 2: They take care to sling out the contents of intestines

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Speaker 2: before they eat them, and their small young avoid cannibalization

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Speaker 2: by their gigantic elders, in part by rolling around in

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Speaker 2: such filth.

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Speaker 3: Interesting. Yeah, so that they're too smelly to eat, I guess, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that in common. They also like tend to stick

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Speaker 2: to the trees, so yeah, they're they're too young to

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Speaker 2: get along with the big kimodos. They stay up in

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Speaker 2: the trees. As they grow in size, they come down.

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Speaker 2: But kmodo dragons grow throughout their lives, like you know

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Speaker 2: a lot of reptile species that we've discussed. So there's

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Speaker 2: there's still going to be a mismatch, and you're gonna

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Speaker 2: have these situations where komodo drag the large ones have

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Speaker 2: taken down prey and or are scavenging prey, and so

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Speaker 2: there's some sort of large, smelly feast to be had.

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Speaker 2: The big dragons are going to have primary access to that.

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Speaker 2: The younger dragons, the ones that are there, they're big

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Speaker 2: enough to come down from the trees, but they're not

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Speaker 2: big enough to get in on the buffet. They're going

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Speaker 2: to go around in this circle, this kind of uh,

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Speaker 2: this circle of that's like a nervous circle that's going

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Speaker 2: around the feeding area, an appeasement circle, I believe it's

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Speaker 2: sometimes referred to as where they're just kind of hanging

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Speaker 2: around making it clear that they are not contesting the

264
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Speaker 2: kill at all, They are not attempting to get in,

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Speaker 2: but they are ready to do clean up after the

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Speaker 2: main meal has taken place. So, yeah, kimodos in and

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Speaker 2: of themselves instant endlessly fascinating as well, you know, enormous

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Speaker 2: predatory lizards and yeah, so I guess the other thing

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Speaker 2: thinking about this whole this this again this idea that

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Speaker 2: there was harmful bacteria in their saliva, which you see

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Speaker 2: that in the older sources and even in not so

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Speaker 2: old sources. They so kind of you see, kind of

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Speaker 2: like a halfway holding onto that concept where they're saying, Okay,

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Speaker 2: there's a toxin, there's a venom in play, but also

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Speaker 2: the bacteria. But you know, when you look at the

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Speaker 2: full equation of what they have, their strength, their teeth,

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Speaker 2: their anticoagulant, venom, they certainly don't need a bacterially potent

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Speaker 2: bite to get the job done. I suspect some of

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Speaker 2: this also goes back to prior interpretations of the Komodo

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Speaker 2: dragon as being primarily scavengers. In part this may have

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Speaker 2: been due to the fact that you would see them,

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Speaker 2: you know, all hanging out around this rotting kill. But

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Speaker 2: nowadays we know that they are very capable hunters, bringing

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Speaker 2: down things like water buffaloes and deer, and they are

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Speaker 2: in fact apex predators in their environments.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so attacking live prey, going after it, taking it

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Speaker 3: down with strength, with jaws, all that stuff. Yeah, and

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Speaker 3: the help of some venom as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I think the idea is, yeah, they get

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Speaker 2: a really good bite in. If the prey makes it

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Speaker 2: away from them, they're not going to make it too

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Speaker 2: far and they're going to succumb to those injuries.

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Speaker 3: But again to emphasize, based on what I was reading,

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Speaker 3: it seems like komodo dragons are not going to be

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Speaker 3: as dependent on their venom for a hunting and predation

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Speaker 3: as like most venomous snakes are.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like you can think of a venomous snake almost

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Speaker 2: as a sniper, whereas the komodo dragon is more like

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Speaker 2: artillery I guess, and some similar interpretations are going to

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Speaker 2: transition into and I'm certainly going to apply to what

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Speaker 2: we're going to be talking about with the HeLa Monster.

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Speaker 2: So coming back to the Helo monster, what does this

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Speaker 2: name mean? You know, I think, going back to childhood interpretations,

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Speaker 2: this is you know, we encounter the word HeLa. It

305
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Speaker 2: is spelled g i l a. This leads to a

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00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:49,960
Speaker 2: number of early mispronunciations as we talk about the Gila monster. Perhaps,

307
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Speaker 2: but it is HeLa and it is named for the

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Speaker 2: HeLa River basin of New Mexico and Arizona, where it

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Speaker 2: was once plentiful. The scientific name is Heloderma suspectum, which

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Speaker 2: translates to suspicious wart skin, with the suspart coming from

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Speaker 2: nineteenth century paleontologist and biologist Edward Drinker Cope. Some of

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Speaker 2: you may remember that name. He was one of the

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Speaker 2: key individuals in the paleontologist Bone Wars.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So, according to that book by Beck, the reason

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Speaker 3: that these lizards were suspicious to Cope was that Cope

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Speaker 3: suspected that they were venomous but couldn't be sure. And

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Speaker 3: this was actually an unsettled issue for like hundreds of years,

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Speaker 3: the different naturalists making opposing claims about whether HeLa monsters

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Speaker 3: were venomous or not. It wasn't until around the nineteen twenties,

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Speaker 3: by Beck's reckoning, that enough evidence had been marshaled to

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Speaker 3: convince basically everybody in the field that they were truly venomous,

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Speaker 3: and yet the species name stuck. So I think it's

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Speaker 3: funny that HeLa monsters are in their scientific name forever suspected,

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Speaker 3: even though they are one hundred percent guilty, poor critters.

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Speaker 2: I think it is telling that this was such this

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Speaker 2: remains such an open question because, as we'll discuss, anyone

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Speaker 2: who has ever actually been bitten by a HeLa monster.

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Speaker 2: There's no doubt concerning this. Well.

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Speaker 3: Beck tells a funny story where one of the guys

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Speaker 3: who was arguing, no, they're not venomous, got a bite

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Speaker 3: from a HeLa monster and apparently it wasn't that bad.

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Speaker 3: So maybe it was just a dry bite. I don't know,

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Speaker 3: Like we'll talk later about the venomation mechanism, So maybe

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Speaker 3: this guy got a quick little nip without much venom,

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Speaker 3: you know, mashed in or something. Yeah, it was like,

336
00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,120
Speaker 3: no big deal. I don't think they're venomous. I would

337
00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,240
Speaker 3: love to compare that to other accounts of bites from

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Speaker 3: these things, which are epic to read. But I wanted

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00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,159
Speaker 3: to note another interesting thing about their scientific names. So

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Speaker 3: the genus name again is a Heloderma. The species name

341
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Speaker 3: suspect them. Suspect them because they were suspected of being venomous,

342
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:02,080
Speaker 3: and they were. But the the genus name can be interpreted,

343
00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,600
Speaker 3: like you said, as wardy skin, though more literally it

344
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:10,040
Speaker 3: comes from the Greek that means skin of nails or

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00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:14,479
Speaker 3: skin of studs. This will relate to a biological feature

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00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,719
Speaker 3: we'll talk about in a minute called the osteoderms, but

347
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,159
Speaker 3: so heloderma. The derma of course means skin, but the

348
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,560
Speaker 3: helopart comes from the Greek word helos, referring to a

349
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Speaker 3: nail or a stud, or more specifically, the flat head

350
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Speaker 3: of a nail, So these are nail skin. There are

351
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,640
Speaker 3: pin head lizards in a way. I'm thinking of Doug Bradley.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think pinhead lizard is a nice nickname

353
00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:43,280
Speaker 2: for the HeLa monster. Yeah, because warts, they're not really warts.

354
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Speaker 2: Beads I think is a better physical description of what

355
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Speaker 2: we're looking at. These, as you mentioned, are in fact

356
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:54,399
Speaker 2: bony osteoderms that do indeed provide an armor layer for

357
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:58,000
Speaker 2: the HeLa monster as well as their beaded and monitor

358
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:01,560
Speaker 2: lizard can. I frequently see it compared to various medieval

359
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,320
Speaker 2: armors such as chain mail, you know, pretty obvious thing

360
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,000
Speaker 2: to compare it to, though this can be confusing as

361
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:11,439
Speaker 2: osteoderms do not overlap. I've read the lizards also have

362
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,919
Speaker 2: scales atop these osteoderms as well, and osteoderms can fuse

363
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,640
Speaker 2: with the skeleton and with the Helo monster, they specifically

364
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:24,240
Speaker 2: fuse with their skulls, creating just a very memorable skull

365
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Speaker 2: if you were an easy skull. Yeah, if you were

366
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Speaker 2: not behind the wheel of a car, or I don't know,

367
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Speaker 2: non jury do it. I don't know whatever you're doing.

368
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Speaker 2: Or you shouldn't look at your phone or your computer screen.

369
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Speaker 2: If you are able, look them up. Look up some

370
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Speaker 2: images of Helo monster skulls alongside Helo monster fleshed heads,

371
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Speaker 2: and it's pretty pretty memorable, and I would say pretty metal.

372
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Speaker 3: Another thing, if you get a chance to look up,

373
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Speaker 3: is a picture of a CT scan of a HeLa

374
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Speaker 3: monster head, which I came across in a paper that

375
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Speaker 3: I think we were both looking out for this episode

376
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Speaker 3: by Gordon W. S Hewitt at all. Lead author is Shwett.

377
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Speaker 3: So this is a paper about I think it's mainly

378
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,639
Speaker 3: about female female aggression fighting between Heela monsters. But it

379
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Speaker 3: just throws in in the middle of the paper here

380
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,960
Speaker 3: are some CT scans of Helo monster heads. It gives

381
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,520
Speaker 3: you top view, bottom view, lateral view. Especially the lateral

382
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,720
Speaker 3: view of the head. It doesn't look real. It looks

383
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:24,520
Speaker 3: like an illustration of a dragon. Because so you have

384
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Speaker 3: these osteoderms, like we've been talking about, these kind of

385
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:32,280
Speaker 3: bulbous little beads, these wardy shaped, little bony patches covering

386
00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,920
Speaker 3: the entire head, and then also a little bit less

387
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,320
Speaker 3: densely grouped but also covering the neck. And then the

388
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,520
Speaker 3: head just terminates in these empty eye sockets and these

389
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,840
Speaker 3: teeth that look like something out of a fantasy. They're

390
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:51,760
Speaker 3: a horrible, just long, spiny, spear tip looking teeth that

391
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:54,719
Speaker 3: look more like a drawing than like nature.

392
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Speaker 2: It really, if you didn't know what a helo monster's

393
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,960
Speaker 2: skull looks like, you might suspect that this is a

394
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 2: Halloween decoration that you buy at lows in like late September. Yeah.

395
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, it looks like dragons from movies. It looks like

396
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 3: one of the things from Game of Thrones. Yeah, like

397
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,800
Speaker 3: a dragon the head with ridiculous teeth.

398
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, absolutely gnarly. And again it's an interesting juxtaposition.

399
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:23,199
Speaker 2: When you look at a fleshed, fully fleshed HeLa monster,

400
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 2: I would say, you know, with that signature black and

401
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,920
Speaker 2: pink orange color scheme, I tend to think they look

402
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,359
Speaker 2: kind of sweet, you know, a little bit lazy, a

403
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 2: little bit silly. Yeah, totally not the same sinister vibes.

404
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 3: They often have sweet looking eyes. They're just looking at

405
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 3: you like, hey, what's up.

406
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, though to be clear, do not attempt to

407
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 2: love them in a physical manner. No love from a farm.

408
00:22:51,280 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 4: Yeah.

409
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,400
Speaker 2: So, I'll see other descriptions that are important here. There's

410
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 2: stocky lizards with broad heads and short fat tails, where

411
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 2: they indeed use these tails for fat storage.

412
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:11,680
Speaker 4: Yeah.

413
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:13,919
Speaker 3: So they often get a bunch of their meals in

414
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,399
Speaker 3: one part of the year and then store up that

415
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 3: energy as fat reserves in the tail, which they can

416
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 3: then live off of for the leaner parts of the year.

417
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 2: That's right, I've read that. Yeah, their meals are few

418
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 2: and far between, somewhere between five and ten meals per

419
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 2: year for a helo monster. So. Beaded lizards in general

420
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 2: spend most of their time in burrows and they avoid

421
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,919
Speaker 2: extreme temperatures, so only during cooler spring months are they

422
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,440
Speaker 2: going to come out during the day at all. They

423
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 2: forage on the ground, but can also climb trees as well.

424
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 2: Even the helo monster who if you again, if you certainly,

425
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,680
Speaker 2: if you've seen them at the zoo or in some

426
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 2: sort of you know, enclosed environment like that, they don't

427
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,120
Speaker 2: really look like they're going to be scaling a lot

428
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,680
Speaker 2: of trees. They look like they are very ground based

429
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:03,400
Speaker 2: and certainly under round based. But you have to consider

430
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 2: what their favorite meals are, and so they're they're foraging,

431
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 2: but what are they foraging for. They're generally looking for

432
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 2: eggs and young prey, so young mammalian prey generally like

433
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,719
Speaker 2: rodents or I believe baby rabbits also come up as

434
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 2: a favorite.

435
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:23,640
Speaker 3: They love little cottontails, baby birds, eggs. They're nest raiders,

436
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 3: nest rating specialists, and so.

437
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 2: You got to go where the nests are, and certainly

438
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 2: with a lot of bird species, they may be up

439
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:31,640
Speaker 2: in the in the trees, and so that is where

440
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,679
Speaker 2: the HeLa monster will go. If you look around and on,

441
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 2: you can find some images of HeLa monsters possibly in

442
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 2: the act of climbing, or at least they're halfway up

443
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 2: a tree or small tree. Anyway, again, you have to

444
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 2: consider their environments and what constitutes a tree and helo

445
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 2: monster land.

446
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're not going to be a lot of sorry,

447
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 3: is it going to be a lot of desert stuff

448
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 3: like maybe mesquite or pelleverity?

449
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, not going to be yeah,

450
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 2: redwoods or gigantic trees of that that nature. Uh, but yeah,

451
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 2: they so some of the nests and an opportunities to

452
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 2: feed are going to be up high, but a lot

453
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 2: of them are going to be in the ground, and

454
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 2: so they can use their powerful fore limbs to go

455
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 2: after those nests as well. Uh. And they yeah, and

456
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 2: according to Beck and his work, they feed almost exclusively

457
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 2: on vertebrate nest contents. They'll eat other things as well,

458
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 2: but vertebrate nest contents that's what they go for.

459
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 4: Okay.

460
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 2: Beck explains that few other lizards or snakes are really

461
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 2: going to share this uh, this this niche because it

462
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 2: is a challenging one to choose in life. We see

463
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 2: this with other examples of of of organisms where if

464
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 2: you have a very specialized diet, uh, it may bring richness,

465
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 2: but it also can bring you know, seasonable availability and

466
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 2: so forth. So so that's definitely in play here. Egg

467
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 2: layers and and and eating animals are going to be

468
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 2: you know, more active at certain times of the year

469
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 2: that's when they're going to produce. But also if you

470
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 2: are eating mostly eggs or the young, these are prize commodities,

471
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 2: a lot of energy goes into creating them, and then

472
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 2: this could and then a lot of energy is going

473
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,120
Speaker 2: to go into either secreting them away or actively protecting them.

474
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 2: So so that is also a factor. And to even

475
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,479
Speaker 2: find them, especially if they're hidden in some way, you

476
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 2: have to be pretty sensitive to their uh, to to

477
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 2: their their their their their chemical signal. You have to

478
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 2: have a very chemically sensitive organism and in organism that

479
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,119
Speaker 2: has a pretty good memory. So so again you have

480
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 2: to factor that into the evolutionary direction that monitor that

481
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 2: these uh, these beaded lizards and specifically uh, the HeLa

482
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 2: monster have gone uh, so you have to have you

483
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 2: end up with a devoted egg eater slash baby eater,

484
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 2: nest rat or that has to go for long stretches

485
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 2: without being able to eat. And indeed we see that

486
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,919
Speaker 2: with the Helo monsters diet again, eating five to ten

487
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 2: times a year, and those meals are not going to

488
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 2: be evenly spread out now they get at their Their

489
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 2: activity also ticks up during other key moments, of course,

490
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 2: during breeding season and mate selection season. This is when

491
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 2: the males of the Helo monsters are going to compete

492
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 2: through what is often described as fierce combat, though I'm

493
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:31,919
Speaker 2: to understand it's mostly intense wrestling with some nibs. So

494
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 2: they're going to bite each other, but they're not going

495
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 2: to go full on venom inducing bites. These are going

496
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 2: to be I'm not going to say loving bites. They're

497
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 2: still done in an offensive way. They're still competing, but yeah,

498
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 2: not going to be full on bites. The mating takes

499
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 2: place in late spring, resulting in up to a dozen eggs,

500
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 2: which require ten months before hatching.

501
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 3: So like in a lot of other species, you're going

502
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 3: to have, especially males, competing with each each other for

503
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 3: opportunities to mate.

504
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, Yeah, they're going to wrestle around, they're going

505
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 2: to nib each other, and then it's going to you know,

506
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 2: lead to mate selection and the production of these eggs.

507
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

508
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 2: Now, this is where we're going to come back to

509
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 2: that study we referenced already from Shuitt. This is a

510
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three study from cal poly Pomona and it

511
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 2: concerns female female aggression in the HeLa monster and they

512
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 2: found that, Okay, this is you know, definitely the case

513
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 2: when males fight each other intense wrestling but mostly just

514
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 2: nibbing at each other with their mouths. But when females

515
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 2: fight each other, and they may fight each other for

516
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 2: a few different reasons, you know, territorial defense, an acquisition,

517
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 2: mate defense, parental care slash cannibalism prevention. When the females fight,

518
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 2: they really don't hold anything bite. They're full on bites here,

519
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 2: which is which is interesting, Like they're not going it's

520
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 2: like they're not competing for mating here. They are just

521
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 2: all out like for instance, defending their young and or

522
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 2: preventing cannibalism from occurring. Because again, helo monsters are nest raiders,

523
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 2: they are not above rating other heelo monster nests.

524
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 3: The authors of the study talk about reasons why the

525
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 3: intensity and the violence of the fighting between the females

526
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 3: might be greater than that of the competition between males,

527
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 3: and one idea they talk about that I thought was

528
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 3: interesting is that it could be because the males have

529
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 3: a ritualized system for handling intersex conflict. So because they

530
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 3: have this system of competing with one another for mates,

531
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 3: they have this ritualized wrestling type of thing where they

532
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 3: can sort of have a proxy for all out fighting

533
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:55,719
Speaker 3: by competing to show endurance in wrestling or these displays,

534
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 3: which is another interesting example of something we've talked about

535
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 3: on the show before of like a lot of the

536
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 3: things we see in nature that we think of as

537
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 3: fighting or aggression are actually ways of avoiding fighting or aggression.

538
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 2: M hmm.

539
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 3: It's kind of a kind of an interesting paradox there,

540
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 3: Like some of the most aggressive stuff you might see

541
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 3: animals doing is actually behaviors they have evolved in order

542
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 3: to avoid all out violence.

543
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this is This is always fascinating anytime it

544
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 2: comes up. You know that we have we certainly have

545
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 2: more extreme cases where essentially, like two males can just

546
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 2: stare each other down. One has a clear size advantage

547
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,479
Speaker 2: or some other clear advantage. The other one's just going

548
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 2: to back down. It's like, okay, we don't even have

549
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 2: to fight. We can see how this would play out.

550
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 2: And this is kind of more like sort of a

551
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 2: downstream version of a similar scenario. It's like like, okay,

552
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 2: we can sort of go fifty percent in this battle,

553
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 2: and then we know how a full one hundred percent

554
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 2: battle between the two of us would go. But we

555
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 2: don't need to go there. You know, the winner wants

556
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:02,239
Speaker 2: to go on in mate, the loser would like to

557
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 2: go on and successfully mate and or win other competitions.

558
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 2: It serves everyone's best interest if this is how it

559
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 2: plays out.

560
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 3: I guess it usually only works out for like a

561
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 3: maybe a younger individual that doesn't look as strong but

562
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 3: could actually win in a fight, like would not win

563
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 3: the bluff, but would win the fight. But that you know,

564
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 3: that's not going to happen all that often, right, Right,

565
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 3: One more thing I did want to mention from this

566
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 3: Schwitt study, So it talks about another thing that was

567
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 3: missing from the male male aggression usually but was present

568
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 3: in the female female aggression. Was so they will bite,

569
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 3: do it full on biting, and also will do this

570
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 3: thing they call lateral rotation. Did you get to this

571
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 3: part here where they're like they compared it actually to

572
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 3: the crocodilian death.

573
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 2: Yeah.

574
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 3: So you know, if you've seen crocodile sometimes when they

575
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 3: get a bite of something, either grasping part of a

576
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 3: prey animal that still or just getting part of a carcass,

577
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 3: you know, like even baby crocodilians that are trying to

578
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 3: tear off pieces of flesh from from an already dead

579
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 3: carcass or something. You know, they'll get a bite of

580
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 3: something in their mouth and instinctually just start spinning about

581
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 3: wildly in the water. And so in the study, I

582
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 3: thought it's interesting that even though these lizards are not

583
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 3: super closely related to crocodilians, they have a similar impulse.

584
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 3: I guess maybe you know, they are these elongated reptiles,

585
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 3: so they grab hold and then they just start spinning around.

586
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 2: If you like. Like I have watched any number of

587
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 2: like b movies from the fifties and sixties that feature

588
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 2: dinosaurs which are actually elongated lizards, some monitors, you know,

589
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 2: some beaded lizards for example, engaging in combat with each

590
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 2: other that they're generally you're going to see this sort

591
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 2: of wrestling going on. Yeah, bite and then roll, Yeah,

592
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 2: a lot of rolling around.

593
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 3: Oh. But another thing they mentioned in this paper is

594
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 3: the role of armored protection in these fights. Like the

595
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 3: osteoderms themselves the little bony warts under the skin.

596
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this does seem to aid them in these

597
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 2: contests between males. Also protects them against would be predators,

598
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 2: as does their venomous bite. More on this in a second.

599
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 2: And also that colorization, as we mentioned, it serves as

600
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 2: both warning and camouflage. So Beck points out that the

601
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 2: color patterns seem to serve as camo at a distance,

602
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 2: but a warning close up. A warning, of course, of

603
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 2: their venom, which, at least in their current form, contrary

604
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 2: to every reptile outside of the heloderm lizards, has no

605
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 2: offensive or predatory purpose. It's purely defensive. You know. You

606
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 2: can contrast this again with the komodo dragons, who you know,

607
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 2: they have venom, but it aids to some degree in

608
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 2: bringing down their prey helo monsters. And there can they

609
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 2: just have this really powerful, full chemical weapon on hand

610
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 2: as a defense. And it's kind of puzzling, right. It's

611
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 2: like if you showed up at someone's house and the

612
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 2: house and you're like, hey, what's that over there, it's like, oh, yeah,

613
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 2: that's my self defense system. It's saren gas. I just

614
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 2: keep it on hand. It would raise questions like why

615
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 2: do you have sarin gas as a like a home

616
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 2: defense system? Like did you have it for some other

617
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 2: purpose originally and you just have kept it around for this.

618
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 2: It's an odd choice.

619
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 3: Now. One thing that's interesting is it does seem to

620
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 3: be the case that the venom of the heel a

621
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 3: monster is almost entirely or entirely for defense. But this

622
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 3: was not always known. For a long time, it was

623
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 3: a contentious issue or a source of confusion, like was

624
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 3: it for predation or was it for defense? It does

625
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 3: seem to be for defense, and we'll talk about reasons

626
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 3: for that later, and they're pretty interesting. But I wanted

627
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 3: to talk briefly about the heel a monster bite and

628
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 3: its venom So again, one of my main sources is

629
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 3: going to be that book by Daniel Beck, The Biology

630
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 3: of HeLa Monsters and Beaded Lizards, But I was also

631
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 3: reading some other sources we can talk about as we

632
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:12,839
Speaker 3: go along. As we mentioned earlier, the Heloderma lizards are

633
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 3: known for being among the few, or depending on your definitions,

634
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 3: the only venomous lizards on Earth. But it took a

635
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 3: long time to get to full agreement among everybody in

636
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 3: the specialist sort of herpetology community that these lizards were

637
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,879
Speaker 3: actually venomous. Beca gives this kind of chronicle of the

638
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 3: history of this controversy, talking about how in the later

639
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 3: half of the nineteenth century you did have inklings of venomousness,

640
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 3: some people had made reports of this kind. He says

641
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 3: that some of the sources at this time comment on

642
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 3: the quote vile nature of Heloderma. I love these, you know,

643
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 3: in the older sources they're not as clinical and they're

644
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 3: not as clinical and reserved as modern sources are, and

645
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 3: talking about these reptiles, they make kind of moral judgment

646
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 3: from the animals they talk about, but also that you know,

647
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 3: some authors in the late later nineteenth century looked at

648
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 3: things like, well, it's teeth have these grooves in them,

649
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 3: what are those grooves for? That could be for delivering

650
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 3: venom of some sort. And then in the eighteen eighties

651
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 3: there were some dissections of Hiloderma looking at their venom

652
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 3: glands and experiments which showed that Heloderma saliva was toxic

653
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 3: to other animals. But this did not settle the matter,

654
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 3: because then more research was published later in the same

655
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 3: decade showing that Heloderma saliva had no toxic effects. Beck

656
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 3: thinks that this false negative about the toxicity of the

657
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 3: saliva was probably a result of samples being collected wrong.

658
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,760
Speaker 3: He doesn't elaborate, but I wonder if this means somehow

659
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 3: that the researchers were collecting saliva that did not have

660
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 3: venom in it, because as we'll mention, it's you know,

661
00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 3: the venom is sort of is injected from glands into mouth.

662
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:06,879
Speaker 3: In the eighteen nineties, researchers extracted venom directly from heloderma

663
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:11,240
Speaker 3: venom glands and injected it into small vertebrates, which resulted

664
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 3: in death. But then others remained skeptical. Here's the thing

665
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:19,280
Speaker 3: I alluded to earlier. There was this one researcher named Snow,

666
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 3: last named Snow who got a helo monster bite, and

667
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 3: he was like, Eh, no big deal. I don't think

668
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 3: they're venomous. So maybe he just got a dry bite

669
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 3: with little or no venom delivered unclear, But Beck also

670
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 3: quotes an author named Goodfellow, writing in the year nineteen

671
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 3: oh seven, who says, you know, at this point the

672
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 3: case is closed. It is not venomous. It can be

673
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 3: conclusively demonstrated. Quote that the bite of the monster is innocuous.

674
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:49,399
Speaker 3: Per se as we know this was completely wrong, And

675
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 3: in nineteen thirteen a book was published by the Carnegie

676
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 3: Institute of Washington that had details on extensive experiments by

677
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 3: eleven different contributors on the venom of Hiloderma, and this

678
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 3: book and then subsequent papers in the following decade finally

679
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 3: had everybody convinced that the lizards were venomous. So it

680
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 3: seems like by the nineteen twenties. Everybody's on the same page. Okay,

681
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 3: yes they are venomous. So to picture how Heloderma in

682
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 3: venomation works, it helps to contrast it with the other

683
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 3: venomous reptile you're probably thinking of, which is venomous snakes.

684
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,240
Speaker 3: In a venomous snake, the venom glands and the venom

685
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 3: conducting teeth the fangs are in the upper jaw. In

686
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 3: most venomous snakes, the fangs will produce deep puncture wounds

687
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 3: with a bite, and then the snake's venom glands, often

688
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 3: located sort of behind or under the eyes, inject venom

689
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:49,280
Speaker 3: through ducts into the wound through holes in the hollow fangs.

690
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,720
Speaker 3: On the other hand, in Heloderma suspectum, the helo monster,

691
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 3: the venom glands are in the lower jaw, and the

692
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 3: venom conducting teeth are mostly the lower teeth, So the

693
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 3: venom conducting teeth here are not going to be injecting

694
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 3: venom like the fangs of a cobra. If you see

695
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 3: the venom glands of Heloderma illustrated, they sort of make

696
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 3: the lizard look a bit jowy. There's a Don Corleone

697
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 3: thing going on and the venom glands. So there are

698
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 3: these multi lobed little protuberances on the lower jaw. They

699
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 3: line the lower jaw and you can see them in

700
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 3: like three or four lobes down there, and each little

701
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,720
Speaker 3: plump lobe is connected to the gums via a duct.

702
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 3: So the HeLa monster has very sharp, long teeth with

703
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 3: grooves running up the teeth from the base, and when

704
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 3: the lizard bites, venom is expressed from the glands out

705
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 3: through the ducts, flooding around the base of the teeth,

706
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 3: and then it is conducted up the teeth and into

707
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 3: the wounds of the bite victim via capillary action. So

708
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,280
Speaker 3: the same way that if you have a very thin straw,

709
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 3: you can see liquid just natured truly climb up the straw,

710
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 3: even without any suction being applied. It's just the capillary

711
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 3: action caused by the surface tension of the liquid it

712
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 3: wants to climb up through the very narrow channel. Same

713
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 3: thing happens. It climbs up through the teeth and is

714
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:16,800
Speaker 3: conducted into the wound. But there's also just getting venom

715
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 3: into the wound through good old fashioned mashing and grinding.

716
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's I think one of the really telling

717
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 2: things about the HeLa monster is that it has to

718
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 2: chew the venom into the target, which certainly feels like

719
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 2: a less sort of biotechnolog technologically advanced delivery system compared

720
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,280
Speaker 2: to like a you know, a cobra or a viper

721
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,839
Speaker 2: that you could almost think of their fangs as being

722
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 2: like little hypodermic needles.

723
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean, as we know, there is no up

724
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 3: or down in evolution, so there's no actual like you know,

725
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 3: more or less sophisticated in a way. That's that's just

726
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 3: sort of an interpretive overlay that we put on things

727
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 3: that doesn't really connect anything real in nature. But it

728
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 3: does feel that way. It feels like a less specialize,

729
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 3: less sophisticated method of delivery for venom than something like

730
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:05,760
Speaker 3: cobra fangs.

731
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 2: Right, And we can certainly understand this a lot more

732
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 2: by just thinking and continue to discuss how a helo

733
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 2: monster uses its venom, like what role it has in

734
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 2: its life as opposed to venomous snakes. But the way

735
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 2: the Helo monster is going about it, it seems to

736
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 2: work well for the Helo monster.

737
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 3: In this book, chapter Beck explains one interesting idea related

738
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 3: to how the helodermal lizards prepare to deliver their venom.

739
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,439
Speaker 3: So if you approach one of these things, and again

740
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:49,879
Speaker 3: I recommend if you're out in nature, don't mess with them,

741
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 3: keep your distance. But if something approaches, a threatened or

742
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 3: agitated helodermal lizard will often open and close its jaws

743
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 3: repeatedly at whatever is bothering it, exposing, for one thing,

744
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 3: sort of showing off the inside of the mouth, exposing

745
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 3: this pink, purple white inside of the mouth is very

746
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 3: different color is usually than the outside of the animal,

747
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,879
Speaker 3: so that can be kind of visually shocking to see

748
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 3: when it spreads its jaws wide, and this is often

749
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 3: interpreted as a threat display, but Beck mentions that it

750
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 3: might have another function, which is that the opening and

751
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:30,319
Speaker 3: closing of the jaws could serve to express venom from

752
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,320
Speaker 3: the glands into the mouth and then to better coat

753
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,240
Speaker 3: all the teeth with venom rather than only the pairs

754
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 3: of teeth in the middle lower jaw that have the

755
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 3: venom ducts right beneath them.

756
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 2: Oh wow, it's kind of like one of those fighting

757
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 2: games where you charge up an attack, you know, yeah, yeah,

758
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 2: either rapidly pushing that button or like holding back or

759
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 2: holding down a button.

760
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 3: I was thinking of in D and D, like applying

761
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,720
Speaker 3: poison to all of your arrows before the light starts.

762
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 2: Yes, that's a good one too.

763
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 3: However, one thing you can say about Helo monster in

764
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 3: venomation is if the delivery system feels unsophisticated, the chewing

765
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 3: venom into the wound feels a little crude, the venom

766
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 3: itself is highly sophisticated. It is this fascinating, diverse, complex

767
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 3: cocktail of dozens of different bioactive agents, compounds, proteins, peptides,

768
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 3: all hormones, all different kinds of things, producing a wide

769
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 3: range of toxic effects. And there are some sources that

770
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 3: indicate it might be a more than the some of

771
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 3: its parts kind of situation where scientists have done a

772
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 3: lot of work isolating individual toxins from the Helo Monster's

773
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 3: venom and trying to understand them and trying to see

774
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 3: what they do. Of course, this will have major implications

775
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 3: for pharmaceuticals that we can probably discuss in the next

776
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,280
Speaker 3: part in the series or at some point in the series.

777
00:43:55,760 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 3: So a huge array of interesting and powerful bio active

778
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 3: agents throughout this venom, but in some cases it has

779
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 3: been found that certain toxins within the venom are more

780
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:11,399
Speaker 3: potent within the venom at what they do than they

781
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 3: are when they're isolated. So again, it might be more

782
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:17,879
Speaker 3: than the sum of its parts. And of course some

783
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 3: of these things found in the venom or have been

784
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,879
Speaker 3: the source of revolutionary drug discoveries. Again, we'll come back

785
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 3: to that, but I want to talk first about just

786
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 3: what's it like to be bitten by a HeLa monster.

787
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 3: First of all, incredibly unbelievably painful. People often describe it

788
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 3: as like being on fire. There is a fire that

789
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 3: you can't put out in your flesh. Another simile that

790
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,359
Speaker 3: I have seen multiple times is molten hot lava has

791
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 3: entered your bloodstream. It's like something is burning hot and

792
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,800
Speaker 3: it is flowing inside you now. And this is because

793
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 3: in many cases, the excruciating pain is not only localized

794
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 3: at the the source of the bite. It is there,

795
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 3: but it also tends to radiate back toward the core

796
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 3: of the body. So, for example, people who are bitten

797
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 3: on the hand often describe a sense of extreme, unbearable

798
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 3: burning pain that climbs up the arm and into the shoulder,

799
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 3: which creates distress in itself because there's this feeling of

800
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 3: how far is it going to go and when is

801
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:27,320
Speaker 3: it going to stop. People who have experienced it usually

802
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 3: say it is the worst pain they have ever felt.

803
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 3: Beyond that, there are a bunch of systemic effects that

804
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 3: have been documented, some frequently, some occasionally, so it's not

805
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 3: always exactly the same array of effects, and I can't

806
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 3: list every reaction ever documented, but the large list includes

807
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 3: reduction in blood flow through the carotid artery, which is

808
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 3: going to mean reduced blood flow to the head and

809
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 3: the brain, a drop in blood pressure. Tachycardia is a

810
00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 3: rapid heart rate when resting, and just general cardio weirdness

811
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 3: messing with your heart rate and your circulation. General trouble breathing,

812
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,360
Speaker 3: a lot of different kinds of strange breathing, maybe shortness

813
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 3: of breath or difficulty with breathing in different ways. Edema,

814
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 3: which is swelling caused by fluid retention in body tissues.

815
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 3: I think this is going to be especially around the

816
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 3: area of the bite. Hypothermia which is a drop in

817
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 3: core body temperature, nausea and vomiting and other gastrointestinal distress

818
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 3: and internal hemorrhage and major organs, and the lungs, eyes,

819
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 3: digestive tract and other organs. I've seen people who suffered

820
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 3: helo monster bites talking about blood in their urine, so surprisingly,

821
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 3: despite how alarming that list is. We mentioned this earlier,

822
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 3: but it's kind of hard to believe that human death

823
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 3: from heloderma bites is very rare. There are only a

824
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 3: couple of possible cases of fatal bites and humans in

825
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 3: the past century. One of them is in dispute. Another

826
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 3: one was that one that's pretty recent that we talked about,

827
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 3: the one in twenty twenty four, the man in Colorado

828
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 3: who was bitten by a pet. And in cases where

829
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 3: death occurs, it seems usually to result from disturbances to breathing.

830
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:18,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've read that in general, not referring to any

831
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 2: specific case here, but I've read that in general the

832
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 2: effects of a helo monster bite can be considerably worsened

833
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:29,399
Speaker 2: if alcohol is in the human's bloodstream. And I think

834
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 2: this may be applies more to some of the more

835
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:34,840
Speaker 2: historic alleged accounts, where we can sort of imagine a

836
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 2: cowboy scenario right where cowboys bitten by the HeLa monster.

837
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 2: What are you going to do? Well, we got to

838
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 2: get out the old medical kit, which is mostly a

839
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:47,760
Speaker 2: bottle of whiskey. Have some whiskey for that helo monster bite.

840
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 2: It's just going to accelerate the venom.

841
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 3: I can imagine it the other way too, like the

842
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,800
Speaker 3: cowboy's been getting into the whisky, which is what causes

843
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:56,959
Speaker 3: the cowboy to start messing with the heli mons.

844
00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, because again, most of the examples that have

845
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 2: been recorded where someone gets bitten by helo monsters becaus

846
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 2: a person was actively handling a helo monster.

847
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:12,279
Speaker 3: Yeah. So Beck mentions differing effects of the venom on

848
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,280
Speaker 3: other animals. What I was just talking about was mainly

849
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:18,800
Speaker 3: what's been documented in humans, but there have been studies

850
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 3: on what happens in dogs and cats and mice. Apparently,

851
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 3: doses that are below the lethal dose in rodents like

852
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 3: mice and rats tend to cause protruding eyes and periorbital bleeding.

853
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 2: Oh.

854
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 3: Bizarrely, research has found that invertebrates seem to be basically

855
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 3: immune to the effects of heloderma venom. So it's kind

856
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 3: of a special treat for US vertebrates. The LD fifty

857
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:48,280
Speaker 3: to the extent that it's been studied, and then that's

858
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 3: the dose at which fifty percent of you know, the

859
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:55,320
Speaker 3: studied animal like mice in a lab scenario are killed

860
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 3: by the venom. The ld fifty seems to vary a

861
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:02,319
Speaker 3: lot in different studies, and this, at least in part,

862
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 3: seems to be because the ad mixture of venom and

863
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 3: saliva is not constant. But it just seems like, you know,

864
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:12,320
Speaker 3: venom lots that are taken from these animals in nature

865
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 3: are just not going to be of a consistent level

866
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 3: of potency.

867
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 2: And this of course reminds us of that, you know,

868
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 2: those previous accounts or someone said, oh, do don't worry

869
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:23,840
Speaker 2: about they're not venomous. I got bit by one and

870
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 2: it's fine. It can be a variable amount of the

871
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 2: venom present in the saliva.

872
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,359
Speaker 3: Now, this brings us to the question of what is

873
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:37,760
Speaker 3: the venom for Beck discusses this extensively in the book.

874
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 3: Apparently for many years this was a subject of confusion

875
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 3: about Heloderma. Is the venom system of the HeLa monster

876
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 3: and the beaded lizard? Is it used for predation or defense?

877
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 3: In relatives like the venom of snakes, venom is mainly

878
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 3: used for predation. It can be used for defense as well,

879
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 3: but it's necessary for predation because the venom is used

880
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:05,280
Speaker 3: you subdue and either kill or immobilize, and then sometimes

881
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 3: to digest prey. This is important because venomous snakes often

882
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 3: prey on animals that are relatively large and could be

883
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 3: dangerous to the predator, as in, they could inflict injuries

884
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 3: on the snake if they were able to fight back.

885
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:24,280
Speaker 3: So in many venomous snakes, venom tends to cause things

886
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 3: like low blood pressure, blood clotting, and just tissue destruction

887
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:32,880
Speaker 3: enzymatic destruction of tissue, often the tissue lining the blood vessels.

888
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,759
Speaker 3: Some venomus snakes also make use of neurotoxins that can

889
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:40,319
Speaker 3: cause muscle paralysis, and this can first of all, it

890
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 3: can immobilize prey, but it can also kill prey by

891
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:47,400
Speaker 3: halting respiration, leading to death. And Beck mentions that some

892
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 3: snake venom may also play a role in helping snakes

893
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:54,799
Speaker 3: pre digest their meals, which is beautiful.

894
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:56,839
Speaker 2: It's kind of breaking it down a little bit.

895
00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, but there is a pretty significant difference between the

896
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 3: kind of invenomation we see from snakes and what we

897
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 3: get from heloderma. So a dose of heloderma venom from

898
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,920
Speaker 3: a bite. While brutally painful, it tends to be a

899
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 3: little more locally concentrated in its effects, has less of

900
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 3: a tissue destroying effect, and so Beck argues that Heloderma

901
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 3: venom seems less specialized for subduing prey and thus is

902
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 3: probably more important for defense than for predation, because, again

903
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 3: coming back to what we talked about earlier, looking at

904
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:37,800
Speaker 3: their ecology, how do they survive and interact with their environment?

905
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 3: Heloderma lizards are nest rating specialists. They attack eggs or

906
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:47,240
Speaker 3: the helpless young of other animals, primarily birds and small mammals.

907
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 3: So there are you know, just you don't need a

908
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 3: venom to subdue a baby cotton tail rabbit or to

909
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 3: subdue an egg. You know these prey are they're not

910
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:02,759
Speaker 3: very large, they're not very dangerous, and thus there's not

911
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 3: a big reason to see why lizards would need venom

912
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 3: in order to bring them down.

913
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 2: Like the monster setting out, it's got like this big rifle.

914
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 2: It's like what are you what are you hunting there?

915
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 2: And he's like, uh, egg doesn't make sense.

916
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:19,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. Also, Heloderma venom does not seem to have the

917
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 3: tissue destroying capacities that would indicate that it is used

918
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 3: to help predigest prey, like it might be in the

919
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 3: case of some snakes. And then Beck also talks about

920
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 3: how field observations don't seem to indicate that heel monsters

921
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:38,120
Speaker 3: use their venom for predation. So he's for one thing,

922
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:40,359
Speaker 3: you know, there's not like with a snake you would

923
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:43,320
Speaker 3: need to bite and then wait for the venom to work.

924
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 3: I mean, so you might bite and then back off

925
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 3: and then attack or bite and then wait before trying

926
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:53,360
Speaker 3: to swallow. But Beck talks about how you know the

927
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:57,719
Speaker 3: heel monsters they're gonna eat baby rabbits or something, they

928
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:00,319
Speaker 3: just go in and just swallow them. You know, there's

929
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:04,360
Speaker 3: not like chewing, pumping, when the kind of stuff you

930
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 3: would see when a snake needs to envenomate a prey

931
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 3: animal in order to get it down. Beck does mention

932
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 3: that in captivity sometimes he's observed HeLa monsters chewing on

933
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 3: already dead mice that they're being fed, but that you know,

934
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 3: that might be something else that might be a captivity

935
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:29,240
Speaker 3: induced behavior or something reflexive. But generally it just observations

936
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 3: don't lend themselves to thinking that it has a feeding

937
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 3: or predation function. He says, maybe it might have more

938
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 3: of a predation function for juvenile lizards, Okay, like a

939
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 3: much smaller HeLa monster going after say again a young rabbit.

940
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:46,240
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe rabbit.

941
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:50,680
Speaker 3: But it seems that it's much more effective for defense.

942
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:54,319
Speaker 3: So the main line of defense for helodermal lizards is

943
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 3: going to be not venom, but hiding. They spend most

944
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 3: of their time hiding in shelters. Now, of course, sometimes

945
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 3: they have to come out of these shelters to pursue

946
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 3: biological objectives like looking for food or looking for mates,

947
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 3: so they go out a wandering and if they are

948
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 3: caught out in the open, most of these well, for

949
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:16,480
Speaker 3: one thing, you can contrast it with what other species

950
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 3: of lizards do. Most lizards, if they're caught out in

951
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:22,680
Speaker 3: the open, will just sprint away from the threat because

952
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 3: they can move pretty fast. Heloderma lizards they're not fast movers.

953
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 3: They are large, sluggish, relatively slow moving and yes, in fact,

954
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:35,120
Speaker 3: there are helo monster on a treadmill tests with peak

955
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:38,799
Speaker 3: speed clocked by Beck at one point seven kilometers per

956
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:43,920
Speaker 3: hour wo, so not super fast movers. Instead of running,

957
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:48,360
Speaker 3: they rely on a secondary defense, which is hiding in

958
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 3: plain sight, so their color patterns can help camouflage them

959
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 3: against the background, at least when the potential predator is

960
00:54:56,480 --> 00:55:00,160
Speaker 3: at a distance. So if a predator comes with within

961
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:04,479
Speaker 3: the range the lizard senses them, the lizard will often

962
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:08,320
Speaker 3: freeze and press their bodies flat to the ground. However,

963
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:11,319
Speaker 3: if a predator already saw it and kept coming, the

964
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:13,719
Speaker 3: lizard would not be able to get away quickly enough.

965
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:16,759
Speaker 3: So now it makes ecological sense for them to have

966
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:20,520
Speaker 3: a third line of defense, which is venom. So the

967
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 3: prescription here is bite, clamp, and hold on. Usually flood

968
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:28,320
Speaker 3: the venom up from the glands into the ducts around

969
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 3: the teeth, flood the venom into the wound, and then

970
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 3: chew more venom into the wound for the bite victim.

971
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:39,280
Speaker 3: This leads to the kinds of effects mentioned before, excruciating pain,

972
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 3: drop in blood pressure, weakness, lethargy, internal hemorrhaging. It is

973
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 3: not a pleasant experience. Now, Beck does note an interesting

974
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:54,360
Speaker 3: paradox if the venom is designed to drive predators away

975
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 3: by making the prospect of tangling with a heloderma lizard

976
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:04,759
Speaker 3: super unpleasan why does the lizard clamp on and continue

977
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:08,799
Speaker 3: to risk injury? While the bite victim is fighting to

978
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:12,879
Speaker 3: remove it seems kind of counterproductive if the lizard's goal

979
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:18,520
Speaker 3: is to deter the predator and escape unharmed. Despite the

980
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:24,280
Speaker 3: apparent paradox. Here Beck discusses existing recorded observations of HeLa

981
00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:28,400
Speaker 3: monsters biting both humans and dogs, and in both cases,

982
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:33,640
Speaker 3: the bite victim does not usually react by injuring the lizard.

983
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 3: They will usually immediately panic and just try to get

984
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:40,240
Speaker 3: away to get the lizard off, which the bite victim

985
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 3: eventually does, and in most cases this happens without the

986
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:47,400
Speaker 3: death or serious injury. Without the death of the lizard

987
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 3: or serious injury, A couple of recorded cases have resulted

988
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 3: in lizard deaths, so apparently the biting and clamping is

989
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:58,840
Speaker 3: in the field not one hundred percent safe for the lizard,

990
00:56:59,239 --> 00:57:02,960
Speaker 3: but it does. The lizard usually does get away alive,

991
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 3: and I think one way of interpreting this is that

992
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:09,399
Speaker 3: there is just sort of a calculus a trade off

993
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:13,480
Speaker 3: that the lizard's biology is making here. So if the

994
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 3: lizard can hang on longer and can chew more venom

995
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 3: into the wound, you are more likely to produce an

996
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 3: intense and overwhelming reaction in the bitten predatory animal, which

997
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:30,680
Speaker 3: I think thereafter reduces the effect that the animal comes

998
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:33,400
Speaker 3: back and still tries to kill or eat the lizard

999
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 3: a second time. So, even though there is risk to

1000
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 3: the lizard from clamping on and continuing it to attack,

1001
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:47,200
Speaker 3: it doesn't have a fast, efficient venom delivery system like

1002
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 3: the you know, the fangs of a viper or like

1003
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:52,960
Speaker 3: a snake that can bite quickly, inject tons of venom

1004
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 3: really fast, and then run away. It has to sort

1005
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 3: of keep chewing and grinding to get more venom in there.

1006
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:05,200
Speaker 3: And the evolutionary calculus has concluded that sometimes it makes

1007
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:07,840
Speaker 3: sense for the lizard to have an instinct to bite

1008
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:10,960
Speaker 3: and hold on and deliver more venom, even if that's

1009
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 3: going to keep the lizard initially exposed to the predator

1010
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:19,560
Speaker 3: for longer. I think because a more venomated predatory animal

1011
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:21,800
Speaker 3: is going to be less dangerous to you after the

1012
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:22,760
Speaker 3: bite is released.

1013
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 2: You know, this is just pure guesswork on my part,

1014
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 2: but the fact that in some cases we have accounts

1015
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 2: of the lizard being killed while it's still attached, I

1016
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 2: wonder how many of those cases are going to be

1017
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:42,520
Speaker 2: very specific a to humans and to tool using humans.

1018
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 2: Something that of course, a hate monster would not have

1019
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 2: evolved to cope with like if they have not evolved

1020
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 2: to cope with, say a pocket knife or I don't know,

1021
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 2: a revolver or something like that. Yeah.

1022
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 3: I think that's a good point. And I think if

1023
00:58:56,120 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 3: you just look more at the kinds of predator encounters

1024
00:58:59,840 --> 00:59:02,640
Speaker 3: the lizard is going to be having in its natural environment,

1025
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:05,960
Speaker 3: what you generally get is just that the predator that

1026
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 3: has been bitten and venomated is going to be focused

1027
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:12,320
Speaker 3: entirely on getting away from the lizard and taking care

1028
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:15,400
Speaker 3: of its wounds. The motivation to eat the lizard by

1029
00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:19,840
Speaker 3: a natural predator is immediately deprioritized, and the lizard can

1030
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:23,400
Speaker 3: escape if it survives, you know, the biting itself.

1031
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just want to get it off of me,

1032
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:27,520
Speaker 2: and then I want to get away from here. Yeah.

1033
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:31,320
Speaker 3: So, and Beck argues that a major effect of the

1034
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:36,680
Speaker 3: tenacious bite and the prolonged in venomation maybe to promote

1035
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:41,840
Speaker 3: learning in predatory animals that it promotes, maybe in the

1036
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:45,480
Speaker 3: one instance, a learning in that individual animal that it's

1037
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:47,640
Speaker 3: not going to approach a lizard that looks like this again,

1038
00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:52,440
Speaker 3: and could also over evolutionary time by reducing the fitness

1039
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:56,440
Speaker 3: of animals that have been bitten. It could produce evolutionary

1040
00:59:56,560 --> 01:00:01,120
Speaker 3: learning instinctual learning, where like animals, the predatory animals that

1041
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:05,240
Speaker 3: avoid lizards that look like this are favored evolutionarily and

1042
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:08,479
Speaker 3: thus eventually the predator species are less likely to mess

1043
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:08,919
Speaker 3: with them.

1044
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:13,480
Speaker 2: Okay, so it's an educational initiative. I'm the part of

1045
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 2: the Helo monsters.

1046
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 3: Anyway, it should go without saying at this point, but

1047
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:19,560
Speaker 3: I think if there's one main takeaway from all this,

1048
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:22,840
Speaker 3: it is just don't mess with helo monsters. This is

1049
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:25,560
Speaker 3: not a lizard worth poking if you find it in nature,

1050
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:30,120
Speaker 3: just you know, keep your distance, observe respectfully from afar.

1051
01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:33,520
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right, look at pictures and if you

1052
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:35,400
Speaker 2: get a chance, if you do get a chance to

1053
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:37,560
Speaker 2: see them in the wild, yes, do keep your distance.

1054
01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:42,360
Speaker 2: And if you see them at a zoo, well enjoy

1055
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:45,200
Speaker 2: the treat of watching them. Probably sleep for an extended

1056
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:48,720
Speaker 2: period of time. But yeah, still fabulous animals and I

1057
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:53,200
Speaker 2: look forward to talking about them more in at least one,

1058
01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:56,880
Speaker 2: possibly two more episodes, because there's a lot more to cover.

1059
01:00:57,440 --> 01:01:01,640
Speaker 2: There are a lot of indigenous to about the HeLa

1060
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:04,680
Speaker 2: monster like to get into. There are various sort of

1061
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:08,440
Speaker 2: frontier myths about them as well that are pretty amusing

1062
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:11,240
Speaker 2: and in some cases maybe insightful into the way humans

1063
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:14,480
Speaker 2: were interacting with them. And then we're going to get

1064
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:19,160
Speaker 2: into their role in pharmacology totally. All right, Well, in

1065
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:22,000
Speaker 2: the meantime, I do write in if you have anything

1066
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:24,240
Speaker 2: already you want to share with us about HeLa monsters

1067
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:29,600
Speaker 2: field reports if you will. We're also open to any

1068
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:32,520
Speaker 2: kind of info you want to send in regarding Helo

1069
01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:35,480
Speaker 2: monsters popping up in movies. There's a website that we

1070
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:38,160
Speaker 2: always love to check out anytime that the subject of

1071
01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 2: herbs and film comes up, and it's California herbs dot com.

1072
01:01:40,960 --> 01:01:42,760
Speaker 2: They have a whole section where you can look up.

1073
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:45,040
Speaker 2: You can see what herbs have been in what movies,

1074
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:46,960
Speaker 2: and what they were doing in them, how they were treated,

1075
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:50,440
Speaker 2: and they have a listing for the HeLa monster, and

1076
01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:52,880
Speaker 2: it's an interesting selection of films. I was looking at this,

1077
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:56,720
Speaker 2: and of course you have concerning Helo monsters and Beat

1078
01:01:56,720 --> 01:01:59,760
Speaker 2: of the Lizards. You have some pretty obvious inclusions there,

1079
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:03,080
Speaker 2: but also like some classic westerns are just popping up

1080
01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:06,400
Speaker 2: in as part of the sort of background you know

1081
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:09,840
Speaker 2: Frontier World. They pop up in Butch Casting The Sundance Kid,

1082
01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 2: for example. No, I forgot about that. Yeah, what do

1083
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:13,160
Speaker 2: they when?

1084
01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:14,760
Speaker 3: When do they show up in the movie?

1085
01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:18,439
Speaker 2: I think The Sundance Kid shoots a Helo monster. Oh yeah,

1086
01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:22,040
Speaker 2: yeah that. They show up in various older westerns to Florida,

1087
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:24,439
Speaker 2: pache and then, of course there is the nineteen fifty

1088
01:02:24,520 --> 01:02:27,160
Speaker 2: nine film The Giant HeLa Monster, in which the HeLa

1089
01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:30,439
Speaker 2: Monster is played by a beaded lizard, so not even

1090
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:33,360
Speaker 2: an actual HeLa monster. They couldn't get him. His asking

1091
01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:36,840
Speaker 2: price was too high. So do do write in if

1092
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:39,760
Speaker 2: you have anything to share, Just a reminder of everyone

1093
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:41,880
Speaker 2: out there. The Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a

1094
01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:45,320
Speaker 2: science and culture podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays,

1095
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:48,280
Speaker 2: short form on Wednesday Fridays. We do Weird House Cinema.

1096
01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:50,320
Speaker 2: That's when we set aside most of the serious concerns

1097
01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:52,840
Speaker 2: and just talk about a weird film. Wherever you get

1098
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:56,360
Speaker 2: the show, we just asked that you rate reviews, subscribe,

1099
01:02:56,400 --> 01:02:59,240
Speaker 2: give us thumbs up. Two thumbs up has to be

1100
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:02,720
Speaker 2: reminded if you are enjoying the show on Netflix, because yes,

1101
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:05,720
Speaker 2: certainly we exist as an audio podcast wherever you get

1102
01:03:05,720 --> 01:03:08,440
Speaker 2: your audio podcasts, but if you go to Netflix you

1103
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:11,960
Speaker 2: can also watch us in video form, so if that

1104
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:14,640
Speaker 2: floats your boat, check it out. You know, we have

1105
01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:17,640
Speaker 2: the really nice cameras so you can you can take

1106
01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:19,200
Speaker 2: it all in a high quality.

1107
01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:22,760
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

1108
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:24,480
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

1109
01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:26,840
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

1110
01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:28,800
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

1111
01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:31,360
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

1112
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:39,600
Speaker 3: your Mind dot com.

1113
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:42,640
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

1114
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:45,520
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1115
01:03:45,680 --> 01:04:06,280
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

1116
01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:00,880
Speaker 2: La