Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: I'm an only child, and my mother grew up with
Speaker 2: four or five siblings, and so I remember from a
Speaker 2: very young age my mother would always tell me that
Speaker 2: your friends will be your family.
Speaker 1: Meet Catherine, who she was.
Speaker 2: Very worried about me growing up as an only child
Speaker 2: and not having that sort of built in friendship that
Speaker 2: she had growing up.
Speaker 1: But Catherine's mom didn't need to be worried because Catherine
Speaker 1: had a knack for connecting with others, and when she
Speaker 1: started college, Catherine quickly got to know many of her
Speaker 1: fellow students, like.
Speaker 2: It was one of those things where you ran into
Speaker 2: people all the time just by virtue of being on
Speaker 2: campus and walking on the same places.
Speaker 1: So when Catherine moved to DC to start her first
Speaker 1: job after college, working for The Atlantic magazine, she assumed
Speaker 1: it would be just as easy to make friends in
Speaker 1: the office as it had been on campus. But it wasn't.
Speaker 2: I felt really disillusioned with young adult life. I kind
Speaker 2: of felt like I had been tricked that young adult
Speaker 2: life was promised, and like pop culture and all these
Speaker 2: TV shows as this wonderful thing. You're like finding yourself.
Speaker 2: You're in this new city, you're starting to forge your path,
Speaker 2: and I just felt really disappointed.
Speaker 1: Catherine was experiencing a feeling she hadn't known in college.
Speaker 1: She was feeling kind of lonely, and she wasn't alone.
Speaker 1: As she spoke with friends in other cities, she learned
Speaker 1: that many of them were in the same boat. They
Speaker 1: two just weren't meeting people they felt close to in
Speaker 1: their new jobs. Catherine wanted to figure out what was wrong.
Speaker 1: Why wasn't she able to connect with new people, what
Speaker 1: had changed. In the end, she decided the problem wasn't
Speaker 1: with her or with moving to a new place. The problem,
Speaker 1: Catherine decided, was work.
Speaker 2: The work environment is one where you don't have control
Speaker 2: over a lot of factors and is already a place
Speaker 2: of a lot of stress.
Speaker 1: Catherine began to see her time in the office not
Speaker 1: as an opportunity to connect with like minded colleagues, but
Speaker 1: as an opportunity cost. Being at work sucked up the
Speaker 1: time she could be spending finding non work friendships.
Speaker 2: I think we all have this urge to have something
Speaker 2: more than just R nine to five. It's almost as
Speaker 2: if I had to carve out time to live life.
Speaker 1: Catherine became so disillusioned with the possibility of making connections
Speaker 1: at work that she shared her experience publicly. She wrote
Speaker 1: an article which ran in The Boston Globe entitled my
Speaker 1: generation isn't looking to make friends at work and It's
Speaker 1: better this way. Catherine argued that gen Z saw the
Speaker 1: workplace primarily as a source of income, not companionship, and
Speaker 1: her article maintained that it was healthier not to make
Speaker 1: friends there anyway, since a boss who was also a
Speaker 1: friend might guilt you into doing more work than you're
Speaker 1: paid to do. The article painted a gloomy picture of
Speaker 1: the modern workplace, one that really resonated with readers. The
Speaker 1: op ed went viral. It became one of the Globe's
Speaker 1: most read articles of that entire year, and the comments
Speaker 1: section that followed exploded. Many readers left long accounts of
Speaker 1: work frendships that felt unsatisfying, hollow, and even exploitive. Other
Speaker 1: comments were more succinct. One reader responded to Catherine's attack
Speaker 1: on work friendships with a single word, BINGO. I'm guessing
Speaker 1: that at least some of you listening right now also
Speaker 1: agree with Catherine that friendship and work don't really mix.
Speaker 1: You might share the view that making friends at work
Speaker 1: will be hard or awkward, or that it'll lead to
Speaker 1: problems like favoritism or drama. You might tell yourself that
Speaker 1: work is about being productive and getting paid, and that
Speaker 1: time spent socializing is just an unprofessional distraction. But what
Speaker 1: does the science say? Could we be missing out on
Speaker 1: an important path to friendship and happiness, one that's available
Speaker 1: at the very same time we're earning our paychecks. Our
Speaker 1: minds are constantly telling us what's due to be happy.
Speaker 1: But what if our minds are wrong? What if our
Speaker 1: minds are lying to us, leading us away from what
Speaker 1: will really make us happy. The good news is that
Speaker 1: understanding the science of the mind can point us all
Speaker 1: in the right direction. You're listening to the Happiness Lab
Speaker 1: with doctor Laurie Santos. I came across Catherine's viral article
Speaker 1: when we were planning this special season on Connecting Better,
Speaker 1: But that wasn't the first time I'd encountered Catherine or
Speaker 1: her work. I looked back and realized that we did
Speaker 1: have a correspondence when you took the class.
Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, I do remember emailing you.
Speaker 1: Actually, you see, Catherine is one of my Yale students.
Speaker 1: She graduated back in twenty twenty one and like thousands
Speaker 1: of her classmates, she chose to enroll in my famous
Speaker 1: happiness class. So we don't have a word for the
Speaker 1: opposite of loneliness, not feeling loneliness, But if we had one,
Speaker 1: that's what I would want in life. I would want
Speaker 1: to feel the opposite of lonely. A class, mind you,
Speaker 1: that spent weeks and weeks talking about the happiness benefits
Speaker 1: of social connection, I would charge you to find any
Speaker 1: study in the history of psychology says shows that social connection.
Speaker 3: Doesn't make you happier.
Speaker 1: That's how profound these effects are. And that's why Catherine's
Speaker 1: article affected me so deeply. Here was this hit article
Speaker 1: that totally rejected the benefits of connection at work, and
Speaker 1: it was written by somebody who had taken my happiness class.
Speaker 1: Shouldn't my student have known better? Had Catherine totally missed
Speaker 1: everything I taught her? I asked Catherine what she remembered
Speaker 1: from the course. She quickly launched into a cherished memory
Speaker 1: from class, a homework assignment in which I gave students
Speaker 1: the opportunity to try out happier ways of spending their
Speaker 1: free time.
Speaker 2: You suspended class that day, and you were like, go
Speaker 2: do something joyful. That makes you very happy. And it
Speaker 2: was my friend Olivia who took the class, and it's
Speaker 2: still one of my best friends. And she's like very outdoorsy,
Speaker 2: and so she was like, we should go to East Rock.
Speaker 1: East Rock is a state park a few miles from
Speaker 1: Yale's campus. It's one of my absolute favorite spots.
Speaker 2: We climbed it. It was beautiful and I still actually
Speaker 2: have this photo that I took of her where she's
Speaker 2: just kind of looking off into the distance. And then
Speaker 2: afterwards we went to the East Rock Coffee shop and
Speaker 2: we got a little coffee, we met up with some friends,
Speaker 2: and it was one of those beautiful college days that
Speaker 2: you don't really forget.
Speaker 1: I listened to this sweet story feeling a little baffled
Speaker 1: because Catherine had clearly recognized the value of connection while
Speaker 1: she was in college, and not just on the unforgettable
Speaker 1: day that she climbed to East Rock with her best friend.
Speaker 2: I think Yale does a very good job when you
Speaker 2: enter the college environment, of putting you in situations with
Speaker 2: people you may not have naturally drifted towards. And I
Speaker 2: feel like that helped me access parts of myself that
Speaker 2: I didn't even realize existed, and I think that's a
Speaker 2: really beautiful thing.
Speaker 1: So what was behind Catherine's change of heart? Why was
Speaker 1: she so down on the possibility of work friendships well
Speaker 1: for starters. Catherine began her new job during the pandemic.
Speaker 1: Like many recent college graduates, her introduction to work began
Speaker 1: on a zoom screen.
Speaker 2: It definitely amplified my feelings of disconnection at the time, But.
Speaker 1: Rather than blaming remote working, Catherine began appreciating it's benefit,
Speaker 1: like not having to worry about dressing up for work
Speaker 1: or acting a certain way all day every day.
Speaker 2: My physical body cannot be seen, my expressions can't really
Speaker 2: be seen except for on zoom for maybe like thirty minutes.
Speaker 2: It is really just based on the quality of my work.
Speaker 1: Remote work also shifted Catherine's views about weaving together her
Speaker 1: job and social life. When your work takes place in
Speaker 1: literally the same physical space as your personal life, namely
Speaker 1: your home, Catherine says, it's even more important to keep
Speaker 1: the two realms separate.
Speaker 2: It is a huge portion of our lives. Like sometimes
Speaker 2: when I step back and like, it's shocking that this
Speaker 2: is the norm of how we do the balance when
Speaker 2: we work in life. I would actually say, it's not
Speaker 2: a balance. It is very much teetered in one direction.
Speaker 2: And so those boundaries become even more important because work
Speaker 2: has already encroached upon life.
Speaker 1: Catherine worries that the expectation to socialize at work can
Speaker 1: further threaten those boundaries.
Speaker 2: I definitely have friends who work at workplaces where they
Speaker 2: tend to like ask you to go out to dinner
Speaker 2: with the company after and then they go to drink,
Speaker 2: and then they also want to see you on the
Speaker 2: weekend for another event that is like kind of you know, optional,
Speaker 2: but also really mandatory. And I think it gets into
Speaker 2: this fuzzy space where like socializing becomes part of your
Speaker 2: job and is tied to your job performance in a
Speaker 2: way that is icky. And I do feel like gen
Speaker 2: Z does not enjoy as much.
Speaker 1: And if the reaction to Catherine's article is any indication,
Speaker 1: some boomers and gen xers share this gen Z aversion,
Speaker 1: older readers left comments like you work with your colleagues,
Speaker 1: but you hang with your friends. One person was even blunter,
Speaker 1: just let me do my job and leave me the
Speaker 1: heck alone.
Speaker 2: You know, it's actually easier now because I don't have
Speaker 2: to do the schmoozing. I don't have to do the networking.
Speaker 2: I can just be judged on the quality of my work,
Speaker 2: and that is very refreshing.
Speaker 1: Catherine doesn't claim to speak for her entire generation, but
Speaker 1: she does think that gen Z's resistance to work socializing
Speaker 1: is part of a broader shift in attitudes towards labor
Speaker 1: and happiness.
Speaker 2: Gen Z like work is important, and if they can
Speaker 2: excel in it, it's great, but it does not affect
Speaker 2: how highly they think of themselves in the same way
Speaker 2: that maybe it does for other generations. It is an
Speaker 2: important part of their lives, but it is still just a.
Speaker 1: Part of their lives.
Speaker 2: And I think that this younger generation also tends to
Speaker 2: see the skeleton of what is really happening in a
Speaker 2: workplace much more clearly. So, like, yes, your job does
Speaker 2: give you a lot of belonging and identity and all
Speaker 2: of these things, but at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: it is still a job where someone pays you money
Speaker 2: to come and perform a service, and if you don't
Speaker 2: perform that service well enough, then they might decide that
Speaker 2: they're not interested in paying you anymore or having you
Speaker 2: at that company. It is still a financial transaction fundamentally.
Speaker 2: If it can more than that, that's fantastic. But I
Speaker 2: think that gen Z tends to not be able to
Speaker 2: and doesn't want to ignore the f fact that it
Speaker 2: is still a transaction in some form.
Speaker 1: This might make gen Z sound a little mercenary, but
Speaker 1: Catherine says there are pressing reasons her peers put this
Speaker 1: transactional nature of work front and center.
Speaker 2: I watched two thousand and eight happen when I was
Speaker 2: pretty young, and I wasn't old enough to understand it,
Speaker 2: but it was one of those things that I did
Speaker 2: actually remember, and was in my psyche from a young age,
Speaker 2: and then graduating in a pandemic and thinking that a
Speaker 2: recession was going to happen, and we're still in a
Speaker 2: very shaky place. I think that the economic history of
Speaker 2: the last few decades has necessitated a generation that does
Speaker 2: place the financial rewards of their labor a little more
Speaker 2: first and foremost than some other things.
Speaker 1: Fair and reliable paychecks in a time of economic flex
Speaker 1: a healthy work life balance, having control over your working
Speaker 1: environment and how your performance is evaluated. Catherine thinks these
Speaker 1: things matter for happiness at work way way more than
Speaker 1: having friends in the offe this, But is Catherine Wright,
Speaker 1: what does the science say really matters for happiness on
Speaker 1: the job and beyond. We'll get some surprising answers when
Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab returns after the break.
Speaker 4: You know all of us have stressors happening to us
Speaker 4: often every day.
Speaker 1: Right, this is Robert Waldinger, not a.
Speaker 4: Problem as long as the body goes back to equilibrium
Speaker 4: when the stress is removed. And what we think relationships
Speaker 4: do so well for us is their stress regulators. Like
Speaker 4: if something upsetting happens to me during the day, I
Speaker 4: can go home and talk to my wife, or I
Speaker 4: could call a friend and I can literally feel my
Speaker 4: body calm down.
Speaker 1: Robert is an expert on how relationships affect our physical health.
Speaker 4: What we think happens is that people who are lonely
Speaker 4: don't have those people to help them manage stress, that
Speaker 4: they stay in a low level fight or flight mode,
Speaker 4: you know, higher levels of stress hormones, higher levels of inflammation.
Speaker 1: If you think this sounds like it'd be very bad
Speaker 1: for your body, you'd be right. Regular Happiness Lab listeners
Speaker 1: may remember that Robert directs the Harvard Study of Adult Development,
Speaker 1: an epic project that followed a group of men for
Speaker 1: decades to see what keeps people happy and healthy as
Speaker 1: they go through life and reach old age.
Speaker 4: The big surprise was that the people who had the
Speaker 4: warmest connections with other people were the people who stayed
Speaker 4: healthy longer.
Speaker 1: So friendships don't just make you happier, they also help
Speaker 1: protect you from stress related illnesses. Robert found that people
Speaker 1: with super stressful jobs and tough life circumstances stayed healthier
Speaker 1: through those challenges so long as they had enough social connections.
Speaker 4: Friendships are stress regulators. People who had better relationships were
Speaker 4: less likely to get heart disease or type two diabetes
Speaker 4: or arthritis.
Speaker 1: But just like Catherine, who some of the men in
Speaker 1: Robert's study found themselves surrounded by friends at one stage
Speaker 1: in life, but then suddenly struggling for companionship.
Speaker 4: And one of the things we saw in our study
Speaker 4: was that people who were in their twenties and had
Speaker 4: lots of friends would find that when they didn't take
Speaker 4: care of their relationships over time, those relationships would just
Speaker 4: wither away from neglect. Perfectly good relationships that eventually fell away,
Speaker 4: so that people would wake up in their thirties or
Speaker 4: forties look around and say, oh, my gosh, I don't
Speaker 4: have any friends.
Speaker 1: Adult friendships it seems take a lot more energy to
Speaker 1: maintain than the ones formed in our younger years. If
Speaker 1: we're not diligent and careful, any of us could see
Speaker 1: our social circles dwindle.
Speaker 4: It's a practice that you want to develop, this ongoing
Speaker 4: practice of taking care of relationships.
Speaker 1: Robert's book The Good Life Lessons from the World's Longest
Speaker 1: scientific Study of Happiness explores why we often fail to
Speaker 1: invest in social connection as we age. One reason, he
Speaker 1: says is that people assume a good life stems not
Speaker 1: from close relationships, but from high achievement. Many of the
Speaker 1: men in Robert's studies spent their lives focused on accumulating money, accolades,
Speaker 1: and promotions.
Speaker 4: What we found in our study is that if people
Speaker 4: sacrificed their well being to work, they ended up looking
Speaker 4: back saying, gosh, that really wasn't worth it. When we
Speaker 4: asked people once they got to their eighties to look
Speaker 4: back on their lives and talk about what they regretted
Speaker 4: the most, the thing that people named the most often
Speaker 4: was I wish I had spent more time with the
Speaker 4: people who mattered to me. Now that doesn't mean you
Speaker 4: can't work hard. That doesn't mean you can't do meaningful work.
Speaker 4: It's the sacrifice of your own well being and the
Speaker 4: sacrifice of time with people you care about that turns
Speaker 4: out to fill people with regret.
Speaker 1: But the hard reality is that most of us do
Speaker 1: need to work, and that's one of the reasons Robert
Speaker 1: is such a big advocate of investing in work friendships.
Speaker 4: Think about how much time we spend at work. It's enormous.
Speaker 4: Why would you exclude interpersonal connections from that chunk of
Speaker 4: time in your life.
Speaker 1: I told Robert about Catherine who her lonely transition from
Speaker 1: college life and her disinterest in finding new friends at
Speaker 1: the office.
Speaker 4: Many of us have been in situations where we could
Speaker 4: take it for granted that be a lot of people
Speaker 4: around our age, many times with similar interests. So let's
Speaker 4: say in high school or college, and so we say,
Speaker 4: I've got that covered. I never have to really make
Speaker 4: an extra effort to make friends because we haven't been
Speaker 4: in situations where it was difficult. So really, it's when
Speaker 4: we get to the working world for the first time
Speaker 4: that we say, oh my gosh, actually it's not so easy.
Speaker 1: But Robert says that making friends at work really is
Speaker 1: worth the effort. It has a host of benefits we
Speaker 1: may not realize.
Speaker 4: I'm going to quote a study that I'm sure you know,
Speaker 4: which is from the Gallop organization that did a survey
Speaker 4: of fifteen million workers and they asked the question do
Speaker 4: you have a best friend at work? And what that
Speaker 4: meant was somebody you can talk to about what's going
Speaker 4: on in your life, in your personal life.
Speaker 1: Gallup found that around thirty percent of people said Yeah,
Speaker 1: I've got a best friend at work. And having that
Speaker 1: best friend seem to have a huge effect on people's
Speaker 1: performance on the job.
Speaker 4: They did better work according to their supervisors. They were
Speaker 4: less likely to jump around between jobs because they had
Speaker 4: people they wanted to show up for. The people who
Speaker 4: didn't have a best friend at work were much less
Speaker 4: engaged in their jobs. Making social connection of priority is
Speaker 4: not just good for our happiness, it's also good for
Speaker 4: the bottom line of any work organization.
Speaker 1: Making friends at work isn't a distraction or a waste
Speaker 1: of time. The Gallup data show that all these water
Speaker 1: cooler conversations may be the motivational engines that keep us
Speaker 1: engaged at work.
Speaker 4: That's also how new ideas get sparked, where you see
Speaker 4: a coworker who works in a completely different area of
Speaker 4: your workplace, who has a different take on things, and
Speaker 4: suddenly you get a new idea that sparks your own creativity.
Speaker 1: But Robert says that work friendships don't just make us
Speaker 1: more creative. Close relationships with co workers also help us
Speaker 1: handle problems more effectively, especially when our stress levels rise.
Speaker 4: What we find is that if we're good at bringing
Speaker 4: in other people to help us through difficulties and help
Speaker 4: us solve problems, that we're much better at our work.
Speaker 4: We're much stronger, both as people and as workers.
Speaker 1: These stress busting effects of a work bestie can also
Speaker 1: provide benefits to the people we care about outside the office.
Speaker 4: Over work and the stress that comes from loneliness at
Speaker 4: work means that we are more depleted when we go home,
Speaker 4: whereas if we are emotionally nurtured at work, if we
Speaker 4: take care of ourselves through connections at work, we've got
Speaker 4: more energy when we go home. Makes a big difference.
Speaker 1: A skeptic like Catherine, who might acknowledge some of these
Speaker 1: findings that work friendships may help us feel less stressed
Speaker 1: and perform more creatively. But Catherine might say, do these
Speaker 1: benefits of office camaraderie really outweigh the risks? After all,
Speaker 1: the core argument in Catherine's article was the becoming friends
Speaker 1: with coworkers and managers can leave you open to exploitation.
Speaker 1: It's harder, Catherine asserted, to ask a buddy for a raise,
Speaker 1: or to tell a friend that the assignment they want
Speaker 1: you to do falls outside your contractual duties.
Speaker 2: Is still a financial transaction fundamentally.
Speaker 1: Many of the readers who commented on Catherine's article agreed
Speaker 1: work should be a place to make money and guard
Speaker 1: your rights, unencumbered by any bonds of affection. Some readers
Speaker 1: even doubted that genuine work friendships were possible. Work friends
Speaker 1: end up screwing you over. One wrote, on balance, Catherine thinks.
Speaker 2: You can still do a good job at your workplace
Speaker 2: even if you're not best friends with your colleagues or
Speaker 2: your manager.
Speaker 1: But are we right to think of work fundamentally as
Speaker 1: a financial transaction or does that miss an important part
Speaker 1: of the sense of purpose we can get on the job.
Speaker 5: Name is Jan Emmanuel Dedev and I'm a professor of
Speaker 5: economics and behavioral science at the University of Axestor.
Speaker 1: Yon just completed one of my favorite new studies, one
Speaker 1: that upends many of our deeply held assumptions about the
Speaker 1: factors that are important for work life balance and for
Speaker 1: keeping us happy. Jan gave a huge sample of employees
Speaker 1: and managers a long list of possible sources of happiness
Speaker 1: at work, and we.
Speaker 5: Asked people, can you rank order these what is most
Speaker 5: important to you or your team.
Speaker 1: Their top pick, as you might guess, was compensation. The
Speaker 1: people he surveyed said salary was the most important thing
Speaker 1: for their happiness at work. So far, so unsurprising. But
Speaker 1: Jan wanted to test what really mattered for happiness at work,
Speaker 1: so he partnered with the job website Indeed, which just
Speaker 1: so happened to have surveyed actual work happiness in the
Speaker 1: over fifteen million workers who use their site. And this
Speaker 1: is where Yon's findings get kind of shocking.
Speaker 5: I think the most surprising bit for most people would
Speaker 5: have been the relative unimportance and income.
Speaker 1: The Indeed data showed that fair compensation was a dry
Speaker 1: of people's happiness at work, but it wasn't first on
Speaker 1: the list. It was sixth, like one, two, three, four, five, six.
Speaker 1: What was first on the list. It wasn't work life, flexibility,
Speaker 1: or having good management. The biggest driver of happiness on
Speaker 1: the job was having a sense of belonging at work,
Speaker 1: a metric that included three parts. The first was believing
Speaker 1: that there are people at work who care about you well.
Speaker 5: The company treats me as a human being. They see
Speaker 5: me as a human not just as an input in
Speaker 5: the production process.
Speaker 1: The second piece of having a sense of belonging was
Speaker 1: the belief that the people in your company benefit from
Speaker 1: the work that you do.
Speaker 5: You're knowing what you mean to the others in the organization,
Speaker 5: so your impact throughout the organization.
Speaker 1: But the final part of having a sense of belonging
Speaker 1: at work, this metric that mattered even more than salary
Speaker 1: and flexibility and good management for happiness at work was
Speaker 1: having an office best friend.
Speaker 6: We know it's much more important that people tend to think.
Speaker 1: John's indeed study shows that we have some pretty big
Speaker 1: misconceptions when it comes to the importance of social connection
Speaker 1: at work. Having friends at work is more critical for
Speaker 1: our happiness and performance than our lying minds usually assume.
Speaker 1: So if you're convinced by the data, how can you
Speaker 1: find that ride or Die office buddy, And how can
Speaker 1: you make that connection while still avoiding the pitfalls that
Speaker 1: worried Catherine so much. How can we get the benefits
Speaker 1: of work friendships and set healthy boundaries. We'll find out
Speaker 1: when the Happiness Lab returns in a moment.
Speaker 3: I am somebody who just loves relationships. I've been studying
Speaker 3: relationships for fifteen years.
Speaker 1: Shasta Nelson is the author of the Business of Friendships.
Speaker 1: Making the most of our relationships where we spend most
Speaker 1: of our time. Shasta helps companies find ways to get
Speaker 1: their employees to build more social connections. Time and again.
Speaker 1: The managers and work as she spoke with, mentioned two
Speaker 1: big challenges affecting their happiness.
Speaker 3: People were like, I don't have time to make friends.
Speaker 3: Like that becomes the number one excuse, Like people don't
Speaker 3: have close friends. The second complaint I kept hearing over
Speaker 3: and over and over was our employees have lots of
Speaker 3: turnover and they're not happy, and our mental health is
Speaker 3: an issue, and we don't know how to help people
Speaker 3: feel like they belong at work. And I was like,
Speaker 3: friendship and relationships at work is the answer. And yet
Speaker 3: I can attest that very few employers are googling friendship experts.
Speaker 1: Shasta argues that the only way our society will be
Speaker 1: able to fight the loneliness crisis is by finding more
Speaker 1: companionship on the job.
Speaker 3: It's almost virtually impossible for us to get our social
Speaker 3: needs met during the day if we aren't taking advantage.
Speaker 6: Of work hours.
Speaker 3: This is the place in life where we are spending
Speaker 3: the most time and the place where we have our
Speaker 3: passion or are making our contribution in the world. So
Speaker 3: those are things that really help create friendship and create
Speaker 3: bonding and help us want to be supported in those areas.
Speaker 3: And I think it's so funny because we send our
Speaker 3: kids to school and we never say to them, Okay, now,
Speaker 3: when you're at school, you are there to learn, and
Speaker 3: so that means don't talk to people there's too much drama,
Speaker 3: don't have friends because that will interfere with your learning.
Speaker 3: Like we understand, and that the more connected our kids
Speaker 3: feel at school and the safer they feel, the more
Speaker 3: relationships they have, the more likely they are to thrive
Speaker 3: at school.
Speaker 6: And the same is true for adults in the workplace.
Speaker 3: Yes, you may not be there to make friends, but
Speaker 3: you are actually better off.
Speaker 6: Doing your work and being more engaged.
Speaker 3: And being more productive, and being happier and being healthier
Speaker 3: if you have friends when you're doing it. So it's
Speaker 3: really an outdated idea that we should not be using
Speaker 3: our workplaces to be a place of friendship.
Speaker 1: And her consulting work, Shasta often hears arguments against friendships
Speaker 1: in the workplace, worries just like those voiced earlier by Catherine,
Speaker 1: who what.
Speaker 3: If it gets in the way of like if you
Speaker 3: have to discipline in your friend So we start naming
Speaker 3: all these like awkward things that could happen.
Speaker 1: People worry that friendships fuel favoritism or prompt the spread
Speaker 1: of rumors. We assume that buddies at work lead to
Speaker 1: clicks and drama, the sort of unhealthy behaviors that are
Speaker 1: emotionally draining and the opposite of happiness inducing. But Shasta says,
Speaker 1: our intuitions here are wrong.
Speaker 6: Those aren't things associated with friendship. Those are things associated
Speaker 6: with interaction. And I would actually state.
Speaker 3: That those things go down down in a workplace where
Speaker 3: we're actually teaching people, inspiring them, and fostering them to
Speaker 3: have healthy relationships.
Speaker 1: One reason we get work friendships wrong, says Shasta, is
Speaker 1: that we have some pretty mistaken notions about what healthy
Speaker 1: work friendships really entail.
Speaker 3: But what we want at work are people who actually
Speaker 3: feel like we have each other's backs, that we feel
Speaker 3: like we can show up as who we are. And
Speaker 3: the truth of the matter is when asked, every single
Speaker 3: one of us wants to feel liked. We want to
Speaker 3: feel loved, we want to feel appreciated, we want to
Speaker 3: feel known, and those are building healthy relationships.
Speaker 1: And Shasta says those healthy relationships don't need to involve
Speaker 1: the kind of people we think. We really don't have
Speaker 1: to be twins to be close and to bond with
Speaker 1: each other. The powerful thing about the research is it
Speaker 1: showing that we don't have to have the things in
Speaker 1: common with each other that we think we have to
Speaker 1: have in common. Commonalities are not what bonds us with
Speaker 1: each other, spending consistent time with each other, having positive feelings,
Speaker 1: and sharing with each other. So I call that positivity, consistency,
Speaker 1: and vulnerability. Those are the three things that we know
Speaker 1: have to be present to bond and we can do
Speaker 1: that with way more people than we think we can. Positivity, consistency,
Speaker 1: and vulnerability. These are the three factors Shasta says are
Speaker 1: essential for not just forming but also for deepening social
Speaker 1: bonds at work. So let's take a look at what positivity, consistency,
Speaker 1: and vulnerability actually mean in practice. First, positivity, which contrary
Speaker 1: to what you might think, is not about being optimistic
Speaker 1: all the time or making only pleasant statements to the
Speaker 1: folks in the office.
Speaker 3: It's about leaving both people feeling better for having interacted.
Speaker 3: And sometimes that means empathy and validation to hard feelings,
Speaker 3: and that's an act of positivity. Sometimes it's leaving each
Speaker 3: other more hopeful, more grateful, more inspired. Sometimes it's words
Speaker 3: of affirmation or a smile or a hug. So there's
Speaker 3: thousands of ways to practice adding positive emotions into a relationship.
Speaker 1: And Shasta is quick to point out that positivity doesn't
Speaker 1: mean avoiding negative emotions in our work friendships. Times get
Speaker 1: tough and emotions get frayed in all relationships, and that's
Speaker 1: okay in work friends too, so long as the negative
Speaker 1: exp experiences get balanced out by the positive ones.
Speaker 3: So we always have options about how can I either
Speaker 3: decrease the negative things with forgiveness or having a conversation
Speaker 3: about boundaries or naming my needs. We can always figure
Speaker 3: out what can I do to decrease me feeling negative
Speaker 3: and what can I do to bring more positive emotions.
Speaker 1: The second of Shostas three step path to work friendships
Speaker 1: is what she calls consistency. We need to have enough
Speaker 1: repeated interactions in order to turn a casual acquaintance into
Speaker 1: a friend. We need enough of a shared history together
Speaker 1: to trust one another.
Speaker 3: We start feeling like we can rely on each other
Speaker 3: because of how you've acted in the past. I feel
Speaker 3: like I can predict how you're going to act in
Speaker 3: the future.
Speaker 1: And the wonderful thing about making friends at work is
Speaker 1: that we're there on a daily basis. Our jobs automatically
Speaker 1: provide a consistent, shared context for social connection.
Speaker 6: And that's why work is so important.
Speaker 3: Because it gives us hours together, it gives us experiences together.
Speaker 6: It gives us an.
Speaker 3: Opportunity to get to know each other without having to
Speaker 3: schedule it.
Speaker 6: On our own, which is hard to do these days.
Speaker 1: The third step in Shasta's three step path to work
Speaker 1: friends is the one she thinks is the most important
Speaker 1: and also the most misunderstood, vulnerability.
Speaker 3: Vulnerability is where we reveal a little bit about who
Speaker 3: we are. We start knowing each other's opinions and ideas.
Speaker 3: We feel safe problem solving and brainstorming, and we can
Speaker 3: be authentic and then we can be curious. And so
Speaker 3: our vulnerability is so important for us feeling known and appreciated.
Speaker 1: Vulnerability isn't about sharing your deepest, darkest secrets. It's about
Speaker 1: demonstrating the softness and openness that pave the way for intimacy.
Speaker 3: So when people are uncomfortable with vulnerability, I ask them,
Speaker 3: do you want a team to feel comfortable brainstorming and
Speaker 3: problem solving? Well, yes, okay, that takes vulnerability. Do you
Speaker 3: want employees who apologize and forgive each other?
Speaker 6: Yes, that takes vulnerability, saying I don't know, can you
Speaker 6: help me? Vulnerability?
Speaker 3: It is the soul and the heartbeat of what you're
Speaker 3: trying to create on a team and with your product.
Speaker 3: But Shasta says, we also need to find the opportunities
Speaker 3: in time needed to open up. We have this belief
Speaker 3: that we need to come into a team meeting and okay,
Speaker 3: get through the agenda and not waste anybody's time. And
Speaker 3: we treat agenda items as though they're the whole point
Speaker 3: of why we're gathering. But it's amazing, it's not that
Speaker 3: hard to take five minutes and say, share a little
Speaker 3: bit of a highlight from your weekend. I mean it
Speaker 3: can be as easy as that, or it could be
Speaker 3: as big of let's share with each other one thing
Speaker 3: that we are really proud of that we're doing at
Speaker 3: work right now.
Speaker 1: You might predict that sharing in this way would feel
Speaker 1: awkward or uncomfortable, or that if your boss use this strategy,
Speaker 1: you'd roll your eyes and withdraw. But Shasta says that
Speaker 1: will help you get all the benefits that come from
Speaker 1: feeling connected. Like most good things in life, opening up
Speaker 1: does take a bit of effort and initial discomfort.
Speaker 3: We understand on a physical health level that when we
Speaker 3: go to the gym or when we go running, that
Speaker 3: we need to sweat, and in fact, when we lift
Speaker 3: weights our muscles actually tear a little bit. We actually
Speaker 3: understand that physical health is on the other side of
Speaker 3: exertion and sweat and muscle tearing. And yet when it
Speaker 3: comes to our social health, I feel like as soon
Speaker 3: as we kind of start socially sweating, so to speak,
Speaker 3: or feel uncomfortable or get nervous, or get insecure or
Speaker 3: get worried about rejection, well we think this isn't good.
Speaker 3: I just need to go back to where it felt
Speaker 3: convenient and safe. But we forget that social health is
Speaker 3: on the other side of that.
Speaker 1: When Catherine, whose Boston Globe article came out damning work friendships,
Speaker 1: it caused quite a stir. She seemed to be saying
Speaker 1: out loud something that a lot of people had been
Speaker 1: thinking privately. But while many praised her candidness, lots of
Speaker 1: people didn't agree with her extreme position. As I scrolled
Speaker 1: through the comment section, I found more and more readers
Speaker 1: who doubted that Catherine's strong stance against work friends would last.
Speaker 1: And it turns out they were right.
Speaker 2: It really started by just us all getting lunch at
Speaker 2: the same time, Like if we were going to eat lunch,
Speaker 2: we might as well all eat it together.
Speaker 1: Catherine was an outspoken advocate for keeping office relationships purely professional,
Speaker 1: but as she returned to an in person office, she
Speaker 1: began more consistently hanging out with the folks she worked
Speaker 1: with and having more and more positive experiences. Over time,
Speaker 1: she began opening up, especially with one coworker in particular, MATEO.
Speaker 2: I think at some point we just sort of sat
Speaker 2: down and I was like, I really think we've transcended
Speaker 2: being work friends, Like I think we are just really
Speaker 2: close friends now, and I think that's kind of beautiful.
Speaker 2: So for me, it was really just like being honest
Speaker 2: about it.
Speaker 1: So Catherine now has a bestie at work, and the
Speaker 1: benefits Mateo's friendship brought quickly began outweighing the problems she'd anticipated.
Speaker 2: There's no one else that really kind of understands that
Speaker 2: level of what you're going through in that amount of
Speaker 2: detail as someone else who's literally going through it as well.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it has been really lovely.
Speaker 1: And just as psychologist Robert Waldinger would have predicted, having
Speaker 1: Mateo as a best friend on the job was a
Speaker 1: huge stress reliever.
Speaker 2: And you can talk about work together and sort of
Speaker 2: have that safe space to like process and vent and
Speaker 2: discuss things and then have that as a space where
Speaker 2: it can allow you to come back to work happier
Speaker 2: and healthier. It allows me to be more professional and
Speaker 2: other aspects of my job too, because I know I
Speaker 2: can process these things with someone who also got it.
Speaker 2: You know, even my partner doesn't understand the exact contact
Speaker 2: through which I go through forty hours of my week.
Speaker 1: The pair now shares a great deal, but not everything.
Speaker 1: Before our interview, Catherine hadn't really mentioned her previous and
Speaker 1: well publicized rejection of work friendships.
Speaker 2: When I got the email from you, he said, well,
Speaker 2: if you're going to do the podcast, then I want
Speaker 2: to read the article. And so I was like, okay, fine,
Speaker 2: you can read it. It was time.
Speaker 1: It was time. What did he say?
Speaker 2: He, you know, is very kind about and he was like,
Speaker 2: it is kind of funny now to read in hindsight,
Speaker 2: but he also was very kind about and was just like,
Speaker 2: it is really well written. You should be proud of.
Speaker 1: The thoughts that you put out.
Speaker 2: And you know, it was really nice to have that
Speaker 2: sort of affirmation.
Speaker 1: So he didn't feel like dis or anything.
Speaker 2: But no, no, not at all, not at all, which
Speaker 2: is great.
Speaker 1: I'm very glad. Catherine still stands by the core thesis
Speaker 1: of her viral article that work and work friendships don't
Speaker 1: need to be your whole life, but she now recognizes
Speaker 1: that what she learned in my Happiness class back in
Speaker 1: the day was right that taking time to invest in
Speaker 1: social connection on the job can offer more benefits than
Speaker 1: she realized. Work friendships do have their challenges, but we
Speaker 1: can't get the benefits without the drawbacks. So why not
Speaker 1: take advantage of getting the happiness boost of social connection
Speaker 1: at the same time as you get your paycheck. To
Speaker 1: do so, I'd suggest, following the advice of a recent
Speaker 1: convert to the cause, I think I.
Speaker 2: Would really recommend that you go in with a level
Speaker 2: of vulnerability that allows for you to get something real
Speaker 2: out of a friendship and see if this is a
Speaker 2: friendship that you have chemistry in, for instance, but to
Speaker 2: also still balance that with protecting yourself and not oversharing
Speaker 2: until you feel that you're ready, because you know, at
Speaker 2: the end of the day it is a workplace. If
Speaker 2: you can make a friend at work that becomes an
Speaker 2: outside of work friend, that is a really beautiful thing.
Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab is co written and produced by Ryan
Speaker 1: dilly Our. Original music was composed by Zachary Silver, with
Speaker 1: additional scoring, mixing and mastering by Evan Viola. Jess Shane
Speaker 1: and Alice Fines offered additional production support. Special thanks to
Speaker 1: my agent, Ben Davis and all of the Pushkin group.
Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab is brought to you by Pushkin Industries.
Speaker 1: Any Doctor Laurie Santos