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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: I'm an only child, and my mother grew up with

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Speaker 2: four or five siblings, and so I remember from a

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Speaker 2: very young age my mother would always tell me that

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Speaker 2: your friends will be your family.

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Speaker 1: Meet Catherine, who she was.

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Speaker 2: Very worried about me growing up as an only child

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Speaker 2: and not having that sort of built in friendship that

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Speaker 2: she had growing up.

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Speaker 1: But Catherine's mom didn't need to be worried because Catherine

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Speaker 1: had a knack for connecting with others, and when she

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Speaker 1: started college, Catherine quickly got to know many of her

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Speaker 1: fellow students, like.

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Speaker 2: It was one of those things where you ran into

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Speaker 2: people all the time just by virtue of being on

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Speaker 2: campus and walking on the same places.

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Speaker 1: So when Catherine moved to DC to start her first

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Speaker 1: job after college, working for The Atlantic magazine, she assumed

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Speaker 1: it would be just as easy to make friends in

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Speaker 1: the office as it had been on campus. But it wasn't.

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Speaker 2: I felt really disillusioned with young adult life. I kind

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Speaker 2: of felt like I had been tricked that young adult

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Speaker 2: life was promised, and like pop culture and all these

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Speaker 2: TV shows as this wonderful thing. You're like finding yourself.

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Speaker 2: You're in this new city, you're starting to forge your path,

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Speaker 2: and I just felt really disappointed.

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Speaker 1: Catherine was experiencing a feeling she hadn't known in college.

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Speaker 1: She was feeling kind of lonely, and she wasn't alone.

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Speaker 1: As she spoke with friends in other cities, she learned

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Speaker 1: that many of them were in the same boat. They

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Speaker 1: two just weren't meeting people they felt close to in

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Speaker 1: their new jobs. Catherine wanted to figure out what was wrong.

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Speaker 1: Why wasn't she able to connect with new people, what

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Speaker 1: had changed. In the end, she decided the problem wasn't

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Speaker 1: with her or with moving to a new place. The problem,

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Speaker 1: Catherine decided, was work.

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Speaker 2: The work environment is one where you don't have control

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Speaker 2: over a lot of factors and is already a place

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Speaker 2: of a lot of stress.

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Speaker 1: Catherine began to see her time in the office not

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Speaker 1: as an opportunity to connect with like minded colleagues, but

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Speaker 1: as an opportunity cost. Being at work sucked up the

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Speaker 1: time she could be spending finding non work friendships.

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Speaker 2: I think we all have this urge to have something

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Speaker 2: more than just R nine to five. It's almost as

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Speaker 2: if I had to carve out time to live life.

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Speaker 1: Catherine became so disillusioned with the possibility of making connections

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Speaker 1: at work that she shared her experience publicly. She wrote

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Speaker 1: an article which ran in The Boston Globe entitled my

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Speaker 1: generation isn't looking to make friends at work and It's

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Speaker 1: better this way. Catherine argued that gen Z saw the

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Speaker 1: workplace primarily as a source of income, not companionship, and

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Speaker 1: her article maintained that it was healthier not to make

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Speaker 1: friends there anyway, since a boss who was also a

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Speaker 1: friend might guilt you into doing more work than you're

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Speaker 1: paid to do. The article painted a gloomy picture of

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Speaker 1: the modern workplace, one that really resonated with readers. The

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Speaker 1: op ed went viral. It became one of the Globe's

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Speaker 1: most read articles of that entire year, and the comments

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Speaker 1: section that followed exploded. Many readers left long accounts of

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Speaker 1: work frendships that felt unsatisfying, hollow, and even exploitive. Other

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Speaker 1: comments were more succinct. One reader responded to Catherine's attack

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Speaker 1: on work friendships with a single word, BINGO. I'm guessing

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Speaker 1: that at least some of you listening right now also

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Speaker 1: agree with Catherine that friendship and work don't really mix.

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Speaker 1: You might share the view that making friends at work

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Speaker 1: will be hard or awkward, or that it'll lead to

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Speaker 1: problems like favoritism or drama. You might tell yourself that

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Speaker 1: work is about being productive and getting paid, and that

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Speaker 1: time spent socializing is just an unprofessional distraction. But what

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Speaker 1: does the science say? Could we be missing out on

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Speaker 1: an important path to friendship and happiness, one that's available

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Speaker 1: at the very same time we're earning our paychecks. Our

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Speaker 1: minds are constantly telling us what's due to be happy.

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Speaker 1: But what if our minds are wrong? What if our

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Speaker 1: minds are lying to us, leading us away from what

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Speaker 1: will really make us happy. The good news is that

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Speaker 1: understanding the science of the mind can point us all

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Speaker 1: in the right direction. You're listening to the Happiness Lab

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Speaker 1: with doctor Laurie Santos. I came across Catherine's viral article

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Speaker 1: when we were planning this special season on Connecting Better,

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Speaker 1: But that wasn't the first time I'd encountered Catherine or

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Speaker 1: her work. I looked back and realized that we did

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Speaker 1: have a correspondence when you took the class.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, I do remember emailing you.

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Speaker 1: Actually, you see, Catherine is one of my Yale students.

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Speaker 1: She graduated back in twenty twenty one and like thousands

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Speaker 1: of her classmates, she chose to enroll in my famous

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Speaker 1: happiness class. So we don't have a word for the

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Speaker 1: opposite of loneliness, not feeling loneliness, But if we had one,

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Speaker 1: that's what I would want in life. I would want

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Speaker 1: to feel the opposite of lonely. A class, mind you,

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Speaker 1: that spent weeks and weeks talking about the happiness benefits

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Speaker 1: of social connection, I would charge you to find any

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Speaker 1: study in the history of psychology says shows that social connection.

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Speaker 3: Doesn't make you happier.

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Speaker 1: That's how profound these effects are. And that's why Catherine's

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Speaker 1: article affected me so deeply. Here was this hit article

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Speaker 1: that totally rejected the benefits of connection at work, and

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Speaker 1: it was written by somebody who had taken my happiness class.

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Speaker 1: Shouldn't my student have known better? Had Catherine totally missed

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Speaker 1: everything I taught her? I asked Catherine what she remembered

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Speaker 1: from the course. She quickly launched into a cherished memory

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Speaker 1: from class, a homework assignment in which I gave students

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Speaker 1: the opportunity to try out happier ways of spending their

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Speaker 1: free time.

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Speaker 2: You suspended class that day, and you were like, go

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Speaker 2: do something joyful. That makes you very happy. And it

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Speaker 2: was my friend Olivia who took the class, and it's

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Speaker 2: still one of my best friends. And she's like very outdoorsy,

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Speaker 2: and so she was like, we should go to East Rock.

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Speaker 1: East Rock is a state park a few miles from

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Speaker 1: Yale's campus. It's one of my absolute favorite spots.

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Speaker 2: We climbed it. It was beautiful and I still actually

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Speaker 2: have this photo that I took of her where she's

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Speaker 2: just kind of looking off into the distance. And then

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Speaker 2: afterwards we went to the East Rock Coffee shop and

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Speaker 2: we got a little coffee, we met up with some friends,

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Speaker 2: and it was one of those beautiful college days that

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Speaker 2: you don't really forget.

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Speaker 1: I listened to this sweet story feeling a little baffled

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Speaker 1: because Catherine had clearly recognized the value of connection while

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Speaker 1: she was in college, and not just on the unforgettable

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Speaker 1: day that she climbed to East Rock with her best friend.

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Speaker 2: I think Yale does a very good job when you

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Speaker 2: enter the college environment, of putting you in situations with

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Speaker 2: people you may not have naturally drifted towards. And I

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Speaker 2: feel like that helped me access parts of myself that

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Speaker 2: I didn't even realize existed, and I think that's a

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Speaker 2: really beautiful thing.

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Speaker 1: So what was behind Catherine's change of heart? Why was

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Speaker 1: she so down on the possibility of work friendships well

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Speaker 1: for starters. Catherine began her new job during the pandemic.

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Speaker 1: Like many recent college graduates, her introduction to work began

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Speaker 1: on a zoom screen.

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Speaker 2: It definitely amplified my feelings of disconnection at the time, But.

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Speaker 1: Rather than blaming remote working, Catherine began appreciating it's benefit,

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Speaker 1: like not having to worry about dressing up for work

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Speaker 1: or acting a certain way all day every day.

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Speaker 2: My physical body cannot be seen, my expressions can't really

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Speaker 2: be seen except for on zoom for maybe like thirty minutes.

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Speaker 2: It is really just based on the quality of my work.

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Speaker 1: Remote work also shifted Catherine's views about weaving together her

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Speaker 1: job and social life. When your work takes place in

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Speaker 1: literally the same physical space as your personal life, namely

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Speaker 1: your home, Catherine says, it's even more important to keep

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Speaker 1: the two realms separate.

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Speaker 2: It is a huge portion of our lives. Like sometimes

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Speaker 2: when I step back and like, it's shocking that this

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Speaker 2: is the norm of how we do the balance when

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Speaker 2: we work in life. I would actually say, it's not

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Speaker 2: a balance. It is very much teetered in one direction.

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Speaker 2: And so those boundaries become even more important because work

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Speaker 2: has already encroached upon life.

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Speaker 1: Catherine worries that the expectation to socialize at work can

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Speaker 1: further threaten those boundaries.

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Speaker 2: I definitely have friends who work at workplaces where they

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Speaker 2: tend to like ask you to go out to dinner

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Speaker 2: with the company after and then they go to drink,

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Speaker 2: and then they also want to see you on the

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Speaker 2: weekend for another event that is like kind of you know, optional,

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Speaker 2: but also really mandatory. And I think it gets into

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Speaker 2: this fuzzy space where like socializing becomes part of your

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Speaker 2: job and is tied to your job performance in a

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Speaker 2: way that is icky. And I do feel like gen

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Speaker 2: Z does not enjoy as much.

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Speaker 1: And if the reaction to Catherine's article is any indication,

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Speaker 1: some boomers and gen xers share this gen Z aversion,

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Speaker 1: older readers left comments like you work with your colleagues,

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Speaker 1: but you hang with your friends. One person was even blunter,

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Speaker 1: just let me do my job and leave me the

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Speaker 1: heck alone.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's actually easier now because I don't have

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Speaker 2: to do the schmoozing. I don't have to do the networking.

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Speaker 2: I can just be judged on the quality of my work,

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Speaker 2: and that is very refreshing.

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Speaker 1: Catherine doesn't claim to speak for her entire generation, but

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Speaker 1: she does think that gen Z's resistance to work socializing

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Speaker 1: is part of a broader shift in attitudes towards labor

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Speaker 1: and happiness.

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Speaker 2: Gen Z like work is important, and if they can

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Speaker 2: excel in it, it's great, but it does not affect

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Speaker 2: how highly they think of themselves in the same way

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Speaker 2: that maybe it does for other generations. It is an

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Speaker 2: important part of their lives, but it is still just a.

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Speaker 1: Part of their lives.

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Speaker 2: And I think that this younger generation also tends to

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Speaker 2: see the skeleton of what is really happening in a

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Speaker 2: workplace much more clearly. So, like, yes, your job does

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Speaker 2: give you a lot of belonging and identity and all

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Speaker 2: of these things, but at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: it is still a job where someone pays you money

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Speaker 2: to come and perform a service, and if you don't

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Speaker 2: perform that service well enough, then they might decide that

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Speaker 2: they're not interested in paying you anymore or having you

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Speaker 2: at that company. It is still a financial transaction fundamentally.

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Speaker 2: If it can more than that, that's fantastic. But I

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Speaker 2: think that gen Z tends to not be able to

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Speaker 2: and doesn't want to ignore the f fact that it

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Speaker 2: is still a transaction in some form.

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Speaker 1: This might make gen Z sound a little mercenary, but

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Speaker 1: Catherine says there are pressing reasons her peers put this

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Speaker 1: transactional nature of work front and center.

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Speaker 2: I watched two thousand and eight happen when I was

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Speaker 2: pretty young, and I wasn't old enough to understand it,

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Speaker 2: but it was one of those things that I did

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Speaker 2: actually remember, and was in my psyche from a young age,

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Speaker 2: and then graduating in a pandemic and thinking that a

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Speaker 2: recession was going to happen, and we're still in a

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Speaker 2: very shaky place. I think that the economic history of

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Speaker 2: the last few decades has necessitated a generation that does

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Speaker 2: place the financial rewards of their labor a little more

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Speaker 2: first and foremost than some other things.

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Speaker 1: Fair and reliable paychecks in a time of economic flex

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Speaker 1: a healthy work life balance, having control over your working

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Speaker 1: environment and how your performance is evaluated. Catherine thinks these

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Speaker 1: things matter for happiness at work way way more than

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Speaker 1: having friends in the offe this, But is Catherine Wright,

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Speaker 1: what does the science say really matters for happiness on

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Speaker 1: the job and beyond. We'll get some surprising answers when

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Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab returns after the break.

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Speaker 4: You know all of us have stressors happening to us

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Speaker 4: often every day.

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Speaker 1: Right, this is Robert Waldinger, not a.

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Speaker 4: Problem as long as the body goes back to equilibrium

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Speaker 4: when the stress is removed. And what we think relationships

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Speaker 4: do so well for us is their stress regulators. Like

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Speaker 4: if something upsetting happens to me during the day, I

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Speaker 4: can go home and talk to my wife, or I

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Speaker 4: could call a friend and I can literally feel my

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Speaker 4: body calm down.

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Speaker 1: Robert is an expert on how relationships affect our physical health.

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Speaker 4: What we think happens is that people who are lonely

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Speaker 4: don't have those people to help them manage stress, that

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Speaker 4: they stay in a low level fight or flight mode,

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Speaker 4: you know, higher levels of stress hormones, higher levels of inflammation.

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Speaker 1: If you think this sounds like it'd be very bad

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Speaker 1: for your body, you'd be right. Regular Happiness Lab listeners

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Speaker 1: may remember that Robert directs the Harvard Study of Adult Development,

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Speaker 1: an epic project that followed a group of men for

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Speaker 1: decades to see what keeps people happy and healthy as

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Speaker 1: they go through life and reach old age.

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Speaker 4: The big surprise was that the people who had the

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Speaker 4: warmest connections with other people were the people who stayed

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Speaker 4: healthy longer.

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Speaker 1: So friendships don't just make you happier, they also help

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Speaker 1: protect you from stress related illnesses. Robert found that people

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Speaker 1: with super stressful jobs and tough life circumstances stayed healthier

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Speaker 1: through those challenges so long as they had enough social connections.

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Speaker 4: Friendships are stress regulators. People who had better relationships were

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Speaker 4: less likely to get heart disease or type two diabetes

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Speaker 4: or arthritis.

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Speaker 1: But just like Catherine, who some of the men in

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Speaker 1: Robert's study found themselves surrounded by friends at one stage

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Speaker 1: in life, but then suddenly struggling for companionship.

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Speaker 4: And one of the things we saw in our study

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Speaker 4: was that people who were in their twenties and had

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Speaker 4: lots of friends would find that when they didn't take

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Speaker 4: care of their relationships over time, those relationships would just

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Speaker 4: wither away from neglect. Perfectly good relationships that eventually fell away,

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Speaker 4: so that people would wake up in their thirties or

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Speaker 4: forties look around and say, oh, my gosh, I don't

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Speaker 4: have any friends.

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Speaker 1: Adult friendships it seems take a lot more energy to

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Speaker 1: maintain than the ones formed in our younger years. If

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Speaker 1: we're not diligent and careful, any of us could see

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Speaker 1: our social circles dwindle.

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Speaker 4: It's a practice that you want to develop, this ongoing

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Speaker 4: practice of taking care of relationships.

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Speaker 1: Robert's book The Good Life Lessons from the World's Longest

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Speaker 1: scientific Study of Happiness explores why we often fail to

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Speaker 1: invest in social connection as we age. One reason, he

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Speaker 1: says is that people assume a good life stems not

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Speaker 1: from close relationships, but from high achievement. Many of the

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Speaker 1: men in Robert's studies spent their lives focused on accumulating money, accolades,

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Speaker 1: and promotions.

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Speaker 4: What we found in our study is that if people

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Speaker 4: sacrificed their well being to work, they ended up looking

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Speaker 4: back saying, gosh, that really wasn't worth it. When we

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Speaker 4: asked people once they got to their eighties to look

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Speaker 4: back on their lives and talk about what they regretted

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Speaker 4: the most, the thing that people named the most often

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Speaker 4: was I wish I had spent more time with the

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Speaker 4: people who mattered to me. Now that doesn't mean you

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Speaker 4: can't work hard. That doesn't mean you can't do meaningful work.

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Speaker 4: It's the sacrifice of your own well being and the

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Speaker 4: sacrifice of time with people you care about that turns

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Speaker 4: out to fill people with regret.

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Speaker 1: But the hard reality is that most of us do

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Speaker 1: need to work, and that's one of the reasons Robert

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Speaker 1: is such a big advocate of investing in work friendships.

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Speaker 4: Think about how much time we spend at work. It's enormous.

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Speaker 4: Why would you exclude interpersonal connections from that chunk of

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Speaker 4: time in your life.

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Speaker 1: I told Robert about Catherine who her lonely transition from

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Speaker 1: college life and her disinterest in finding new friends at

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Speaker 1: the office.

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Speaker 4: Many of us have been in situations where we could

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Speaker 4: take it for granted that be a lot of people

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Speaker 4: around our age, many times with similar interests. So let's

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Speaker 4: say in high school or college, and so we say,

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Speaker 4: I've got that covered. I never have to really make

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Speaker 4: an extra effort to make friends because we haven't been

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Speaker 4: in situations where it was difficult. So really, it's when

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Speaker 4: we get to the working world for the first time

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Speaker 4: that we say, oh my gosh, actually it's not so easy.

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Speaker 1: But Robert says that making friends at work really is

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Speaker 1: worth the effort. It has a host of benefits we

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Speaker 1: may not realize.

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Speaker 4: I'm going to quote a study that I'm sure you know,

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Speaker 4: which is from the Gallop organization that did a survey

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Speaker 4: of fifteen million workers and they asked the question do

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Speaker 4: you have a best friend at work? And what that

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Speaker 4: meant was somebody you can talk to about what's going

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Speaker 4: on in your life, in your personal life.

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Speaker 1: Gallup found that around thirty percent of people said Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've got a best friend at work. And having that

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Speaker 1: best friend seem to have a huge effect on people's

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Speaker 1: performance on the job.

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Speaker 4: They did better work according to their supervisors. They were

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Speaker 4: less likely to jump around between jobs because they had

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Speaker 4: people they wanted to show up for. The people who

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Speaker 4: didn't have a best friend at work were much less

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Speaker 4: engaged in their jobs. Making social connection of priority is

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Speaker 4: not just good for our happiness, it's also good for

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Speaker 4: the bottom line of any work organization.

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Speaker 1: Making friends at work isn't a distraction or a waste

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Speaker 1: of time. The Gallup data show that all these water

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Speaker 1: cooler conversations may be the motivational engines that keep us

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Speaker 1: engaged at work.

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Speaker 4: That's also how new ideas get sparked, where you see

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Speaker 4: a coworker who works in a completely different area of

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Speaker 4: your workplace, who has a different take on things, and

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Speaker 4: suddenly you get a new idea that sparks your own creativity.

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Speaker 1: But Robert says that work friendships don't just make us

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Speaker 1: more creative. Close relationships with co workers also help us

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Speaker 1: handle problems more effectively, especially when our stress levels rise.

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Speaker 4: What we find is that if we're good at bringing

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Speaker 4: in other people to help us through difficulties and help

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Speaker 4: us solve problems, that we're much better at our work.

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Speaker 4: We're much stronger, both as people and as workers.

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Speaker 1: These stress busting effects of a work bestie can also

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Speaker 1: provide benefits to the people we care about outside the office.

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Speaker 4: Over work and the stress that comes from loneliness at

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Speaker 4: work means that we are more depleted when we go home,

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Speaker 4: whereas if we are emotionally nurtured at work, if we

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Speaker 4: take care of ourselves through connections at work, we've got

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Speaker 4: more energy when we go home. Makes a big difference.

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Speaker 1: A skeptic like Catherine, who might acknowledge some of these

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Speaker 1: findings that work friendships may help us feel less stressed

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Speaker 1: and perform more creatively. But Catherine might say, do these

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Speaker 1: benefits of office camaraderie really outweigh the risks? After all,

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Speaker 1: the core argument in Catherine's article was the becoming friends

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Speaker 1: with coworkers and managers can leave you open to exploitation.

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Speaker 1: It's harder, Catherine asserted, to ask a buddy for a raise,

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Speaker 1: or to tell a friend that the assignment they want

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Speaker 1: you to do falls outside your contractual duties.

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Speaker 2: Is still a financial transaction fundamentally.

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Speaker 1: Many of the readers who commented on Catherine's article agreed

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Speaker 1: work should be a place to make money and guard

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Speaker 1: your rights, unencumbered by any bonds of affection. Some readers

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Speaker 1: even doubted that genuine work friendships were possible. Work friends

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Speaker 1: end up screwing you over. One wrote, on balance, Catherine thinks.

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Speaker 2: You can still do a good job at your workplace

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Speaker 2: even if you're not best friends with your colleagues or

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Speaker 2: your manager.

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Speaker 1: But are we right to think of work fundamentally as

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Speaker 1: a financial transaction or does that miss an important part

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Speaker 1: of the sense of purpose we can get on the job.

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Speaker 5: Name is Jan Emmanuel Dedev and I'm a professor of

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Speaker 5: economics and behavioral science at the University of Axestor.

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Speaker 1: Yon just completed one of my favorite new studies, one

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Speaker 1: that upends many of our deeply held assumptions about the

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Speaker 1: factors that are important for work life balance and for

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Speaker 1: keeping us happy. Jan gave a huge sample of employees

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Speaker 1: and managers a long list of possible sources of happiness

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Speaker 1: at work, and we.

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Speaker 5: Asked people, can you rank order these what is most

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Speaker 5: important to you or your team.

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Speaker 1: Their top pick, as you might guess, was compensation. The

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Speaker 1: people he surveyed said salary was the most important thing

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Speaker 1: for their happiness at work. So far, so unsurprising. But

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Speaker 1: Jan wanted to test what really mattered for happiness at work,

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Speaker 1: so he partnered with the job website Indeed, which just

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Speaker 1: so happened to have surveyed actual work happiness in the

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Speaker 1: over fifteen million workers who use their site. And this

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Speaker 1: is where Yon's findings get kind of shocking.

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Speaker 5: I think the most surprising bit for most people would

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Speaker 5: have been the relative unimportance and income.

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Speaker 1: The Indeed data showed that fair compensation was a dry

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Speaker 1: of people's happiness at work, but it wasn't first on

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Speaker 1: the list. It was sixth, like one, two, three, four, five, six.

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Speaker 1: What was first on the list. It wasn't work life, flexibility,

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Speaker 1: or having good management. The biggest driver of happiness on

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Speaker 1: the job was having a sense of belonging at work,

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Speaker 1: a metric that included three parts. The first was believing

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Speaker 1: that there are people at work who care about you well.

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Speaker 5: The company treats me as a human being. They see

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Speaker 5: me as a human not just as an input in

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Speaker 5: the production process.

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Speaker 1: The second piece of having a sense of belonging was

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Speaker 1: the belief that the people in your company benefit from

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Speaker 1: the work that you do.

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Speaker 5: You're knowing what you mean to the others in the organization,

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Speaker 5: so your impact throughout the organization.

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Speaker 1: But the final part of having a sense of belonging

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Speaker 1: at work, this metric that mattered even more than salary

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Speaker 1: and flexibility and good management for happiness at work was

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Speaker 1: having an office best friend.

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Speaker 6: We know it's much more important that people tend to think.

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Speaker 1: John's indeed study shows that we have some pretty big

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Speaker 1: misconceptions when it comes to the importance of social connection

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Speaker 1: at work. Having friends at work is more critical for

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Speaker 1: our happiness and performance than our lying minds usually assume.

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Speaker 1: So if you're convinced by the data, how can you

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Speaker 1: find that ride or Die office buddy, And how can

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Speaker 1: you make that connection while still avoiding the pitfalls that

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Speaker 1: worried Catherine so much. How can we get the benefits

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Speaker 1: of work friendships and set healthy boundaries. We'll find out

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Speaker 1: when the Happiness Lab returns in a moment.

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Speaker 3: I am somebody who just loves relationships. I've been studying

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Speaker 3: relationships for fifteen years.

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Speaker 1: Shasta Nelson is the author of the Business of Friendships.

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Speaker 1: Making the most of our relationships where we spend most

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Speaker 1: of our time. Shasta helps companies find ways to get

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Speaker 1: their employees to build more social connections. Time and again.

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Speaker 1: The managers and work as she spoke with, mentioned two

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Speaker 1: big challenges affecting their happiness.

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Speaker 3: People were like, I don't have time to make friends.

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Speaker 3: Like that becomes the number one excuse, Like people don't

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Speaker 3: have close friends. The second complaint I kept hearing over

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Speaker 3: and over and over was our employees have lots of

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Speaker 3: turnover and they're not happy, and our mental health is

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Speaker 3: an issue, and we don't know how to help people

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Speaker 3: feel like they belong at work. And I was like,

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Speaker 3: friendship and relationships at work is the answer. And yet

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Speaker 3: I can attest that very few employers are googling friendship experts.

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Speaker 1: Shasta argues that the only way our society will be

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Speaker 1: able to fight the loneliness crisis is by finding more

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Speaker 1: companionship on the job.

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Speaker 3: It's almost virtually impossible for us to get our social

442
00:22:32,636 --> 00:22:36,516
Speaker 3: needs met during the day if we aren't taking advantage.

443
00:22:35,996 --> 00:22:36,836
Speaker 6: Of work hours.

444
00:22:37,036 --> 00:22:39,116
Speaker 3: This is the place in life where we are spending

445
00:22:39,156 --> 00:22:41,396
Speaker 3: the most time and the place where we have our

446
00:22:41,436 --> 00:22:44,116
Speaker 3: passion or are making our contribution in the world. So

447
00:22:44,196 --> 00:22:47,356
Speaker 3: those are things that really help create friendship and create

448
00:22:47,396 --> 00:22:50,396
Speaker 3: bonding and help us want to be supported in those areas.

449
00:22:50,676 --> 00:22:52,516
Speaker 3: And I think it's so funny because we send our

450
00:22:52,596 --> 00:22:55,276
Speaker 3: kids to school and we never say to them, Okay, now,

451
00:22:55,316 --> 00:22:57,316
Speaker 3: when you're at school, you are there to learn, and

452
00:22:57,356 --> 00:22:59,796
Speaker 3: so that means don't talk to people there's too much drama,

453
00:23:00,196 --> 00:23:02,676
Speaker 3: don't have friends because that will interfere with your learning.

454
00:23:02,956 --> 00:23:06,076
Speaker 3: Like we understand, and that the more connected our kids

455
00:23:06,076 --> 00:23:08,036
Speaker 3: feel at school and the safer they feel, the more

456
00:23:08,076 --> 00:23:10,716
Speaker 3: relationships they have, the more likely they are to thrive

457
00:23:10,796 --> 00:23:11,316
Speaker 3: at school.

458
00:23:11,596 --> 00:23:13,916
Speaker 6: And the same is true for adults in the workplace.

459
00:23:14,236 --> 00:23:16,716
Speaker 3: Yes, you may not be there to make friends, but

460
00:23:16,796 --> 00:23:18,316
Speaker 3: you are actually better off.

461
00:23:18,276 --> 00:23:20,596
Speaker 6: Doing your work and being more engaged.

462
00:23:20,196 --> 00:23:23,076
Speaker 3: And being more productive, and being happier and being healthier

463
00:23:23,116 --> 00:23:25,396
Speaker 3: if you have friends when you're doing it. So it's

464
00:23:25,636 --> 00:23:29,556
Speaker 3: really an outdated idea that we should not be using

465
00:23:29,716 --> 00:23:32,276
Speaker 3: our workplaces to be a place of friendship.

466
00:23:32,676 --> 00:23:36,116
Speaker 1: And her consulting work, Shasta often hears arguments against friendships

467
00:23:36,116 --> 00:23:39,636
Speaker 1: in the workplace, worries just like those voiced earlier by Catherine,

468
00:23:39,676 --> 00:23:40,276
Speaker 1: who what.

469
00:23:40,316 --> 00:23:42,196
Speaker 3: If it gets in the way of like if you

470
00:23:42,236 --> 00:23:44,516
Speaker 3: have to discipline in your friend So we start naming

471
00:23:44,556 --> 00:23:46,676
Speaker 3: all these like awkward things that could happen.

472
00:23:46,956 --> 00:23:50,276
Speaker 1: People worry that friendships fuel favoritism or prompt the spread

473
00:23:50,276 --> 00:23:52,996
Speaker 1: of rumors. We assume that buddies at work lead to

474
00:23:52,996 --> 00:23:55,996
Speaker 1: clicks and drama, the sort of unhealthy behaviors that are

475
00:23:55,996 --> 00:24:00,316
Speaker 1: emotionally draining and the opposite of happiness inducing. But Shasta says,

476
00:24:00,316 --> 00:24:01,956
Speaker 1: our intuitions here are wrong.

477
00:24:02,236 --> 00:24:05,516
Speaker 6: Those aren't things associated with friendship. Those are things associated

478
00:24:05,556 --> 00:24:08,116
Speaker 6: with interaction. And I would actually state.

479
00:24:07,956 --> 00:24:10,436
Speaker 3: That those things go down down in a workplace where

480
00:24:10,436 --> 00:24:13,596
Speaker 3: we're actually teaching people, inspiring them, and fostering them to

481
00:24:13,596 --> 00:24:14,916
Speaker 3: have healthy relationships.

482
00:24:15,196 --> 00:24:18,236
Speaker 1: One reason we get work friendships wrong, says Shasta, is

483
00:24:18,236 --> 00:24:20,756
Speaker 1: that we have some pretty mistaken notions about what healthy

484
00:24:20,796 --> 00:24:22,316
Speaker 1: work friendships really entail.

485
00:24:22,396 --> 00:24:24,916
Speaker 3: But what we want at work are people who actually

486
00:24:24,956 --> 00:24:26,956
Speaker 3: feel like we have each other's backs, that we feel

487
00:24:26,996 --> 00:24:28,756
Speaker 3: like we can show up as who we are. And

488
00:24:28,796 --> 00:24:31,356
Speaker 3: the truth of the matter is when asked, every single

489
00:24:31,396 --> 00:24:33,316
Speaker 3: one of us wants to feel liked. We want to

490
00:24:33,356 --> 00:24:35,276
Speaker 3: feel loved, we want to feel appreciated, we want to

491
00:24:35,276 --> 00:24:38,596
Speaker 3: feel known, and those are building healthy relationships.

492
00:24:38,876 --> 00:24:41,916
Speaker 1: And Shasta says those healthy relationships don't need to involve

493
00:24:41,996 --> 00:24:44,236
Speaker 1: the kind of people we think. We really don't have

494
00:24:44,316 --> 00:24:46,396
Speaker 1: to be twins to be close and to bond with

495
00:24:46,436 --> 00:24:49,076
Speaker 1: each other. The powerful thing about the research is it

496
00:24:49,156 --> 00:24:51,276
Speaker 1: showing that we don't have to have the things in

497
00:24:51,276 --> 00:24:53,276
Speaker 1: common with each other that we think we have to

498
00:24:53,316 --> 00:24:56,236
Speaker 1: have in common. Commonalities are not what bonds us with

499
00:24:56,276 --> 00:24:59,676
Speaker 1: each other, spending consistent time with each other, having positive feelings,

500
00:24:59,716 --> 00:25:03,156
Speaker 1: and sharing with each other. So I call that positivity, consistency,

501
00:25:03,156 --> 00:25:05,276
Speaker 1: and vulnerability. Those are the three things that we know

502
00:25:05,516 --> 00:25:07,636
Speaker 1: have to be present to bond and we can do

503
00:25:07,716 --> 00:25:12,236
Speaker 1: that with way more people than we think we can. Positivity, consistency,

504
00:25:12,316 --> 00:25:15,876
Speaker 1: and vulnerability. These are the three factors Shasta says are

505
00:25:15,996 --> 00:25:18,836
Speaker 1: essential for not just forming but also for deepening social

506
00:25:18,916 --> 00:25:22,996
Speaker 1: bonds at work. So let's take a look at what positivity, consistency,

507
00:25:23,076 --> 00:25:28,636
Speaker 1: and vulnerability actually mean in practice. First, positivity, which contrary

508
00:25:28,636 --> 00:25:31,076
Speaker 1: to what you might think, is not about being optimistic

509
00:25:31,116 --> 00:25:33,916
Speaker 1: all the time or making only pleasant statements to the

510
00:25:33,916 --> 00:25:34,996
Speaker 1: folks in the office.

511
00:25:35,156 --> 00:25:38,796
Speaker 3: It's about leaving both people feeling better for having interacted.

512
00:25:39,156 --> 00:25:42,236
Speaker 3: And sometimes that means empathy and validation to hard feelings,

513
00:25:42,236 --> 00:25:45,196
Speaker 3: and that's an act of positivity. Sometimes it's leaving each

514
00:25:45,236 --> 00:25:48,756
Speaker 3: other more hopeful, more grateful, more inspired. Sometimes it's words

515
00:25:48,796 --> 00:25:52,116
Speaker 3: of affirmation or a smile or a hug. So there's

516
00:25:52,276 --> 00:25:57,836
Speaker 3: thousands of ways to practice adding positive emotions into a relationship.

517
00:25:57,476 --> 00:26:00,116
Speaker 1: And Shasta is quick to point out that positivity doesn't

518
00:26:00,156 --> 00:26:03,476
Speaker 1: mean avoiding negative emotions in our work friendships. Times get

519
00:26:03,476 --> 00:26:06,356
Speaker 1: tough and emotions get frayed in all relationships, and that's

520
00:26:06,396 --> 00:26:08,836
Speaker 1: okay in work friends too, so long as the negative

521
00:26:08,836 --> 00:26:11,556
Speaker 1: exp experiences get balanced out by the positive ones.

522
00:26:11,716 --> 00:26:13,956
Speaker 3: So we always have options about how can I either

523
00:26:14,036 --> 00:26:17,596
Speaker 3: decrease the negative things with forgiveness or having a conversation

524
00:26:17,676 --> 00:26:21,076
Speaker 3: about boundaries or naming my needs. We can always figure

525
00:26:21,076 --> 00:26:23,556
Speaker 3: out what can I do to decrease me feeling negative

526
00:26:23,876 --> 00:26:26,636
Speaker 3: and what can I do to bring more positive emotions.

527
00:26:26,996 --> 00:26:29,596
Speaker 1: The second of Shostas three step path to work friendships

528
00:26:29,756 --> 00:26:32,556
Speaker 1: is what she calls consistency. We need to have enough

529
00:26:32,596 --> 00:26:35,876
Speaker 1: repeated interactions in order to turn a casual acquaintance into

530
00:26:35,956 --> 00:26:38,796
Speaker 1: a friend. We need enough of a shared history together

531
00:26:38,956 --> 00:26:39,916
Speaker 1: to trust one another.

532
00:26:39,996 --> 00:26:42,076
Speaker 3: We start feeling like we can rely on each other

533
00:26:42,156 --> 00:26:44,556
Speaker 3: because of how you've acted in the past. I feel

534
00:26:44,556 --> 00:26:46,236
Speaker 3: like I can predict how you're going to act in

535
00:26:46,276 --> 00:26:46,796
Speaker 3: the future.

536
00:26:47,636 --> 00:26:50,036
Speaker 1: And the wonderful thing about making friends at work is

537
00:26:50,036 --> 00:26:53,396
Speaker 1: that we're there on a daily basis. Our jobs automatically

538
00:26:53,436 --> 00:26:56,396
Speaker 1: provide a consistent, shared context for social connection.

539
00:26:56,556 --> 00:26:58,676
Speaker 6: And that's why work is so important.

540
00:26:58,716 --> 00:27:02,596
Speaker 3: Because it gives us hours together, it gives us experiences together.

541
00:27:02,716 --> 00:27:03,636
Speaker 6: It gives us an.

542
00:27:03,516 --> 00:27:06,556
Speaker 3: Opportunity to get to know each other without having to

543
00:27:06,596 --> 00:27:07,316
Speaker 3: schedule it.

544
00:27:07,236 --> 00:27:09,516
Speaker 6: On our own, which is hard to do these days.

545
00:27:09,996 --> 00:27:12,396
Speaker 1: The third step in Shasta's three step path to work

546
00:27:12,436 --> 00:27:14,756
Speaker 1: friends is the one she thinks is the most important

547
00:27:15,156 --> 00:27:18,316
Speaker 1: and also the most misunderstood, vulnerability.

548
00:27:18,716 --> 00:27:21,596
Speaker 3: Vulnerability is where we reveal a little bit about who

549
00:27:21,596 --> 00:27:23,996
Speaker 3: we are. We start knowing each other's opinions and ideas.

550
00:27:24,036 --> 00:27:26,796
Speaker 3: We feel safe problem solving and brainstorming, and we can

551
00:27:26,796 --> 00:27:29,156
Speaker 3: be authentic and then we can be curious. And so

552
00:27:29,396 --> 00:27:34,316
Speaker 3: our vulnerability is so important for us feeling known and appreciated.

553
00:27:34,596 --> 00:27:38,636
Speaker 1: Vulnerability isn't about sharing your deepest, darkest secrets. It's about

554
00:27:38,716 --> 00:27:42,276
Speaker 1: demonstrating the softness and openness that pave the way for intimacy.

555
00:27:42,516 --> 00:27:45,316
Speaker 3: So when people are uncomfortable with vulnerability, I ask them,

556
00:27:45,716 --> 00:27:48,276
Speaker 3: do you want a team to feel comfortable brainstorming and

557
00:27:48,316 --> 00:27:51,956
Speaker 3: problem solving? Well, yes, okay, that takes vulnerability. Do you

558
00:27:51,996 --> 00:27:54,836
Speaker 3: want employees who apologize and forgive each other?

559
00:27:54,996 --> 00:27:58,156
Speaker 6: Yes, that takes vulnerability, saying I don't know, can you

560
00:27:58,236 --> 00:27:59,596
Speaker 6: help me? Vulnerability?

561
00:27:59,756 --> 00:28:02,556
Speaker 3: It is the soul and the heartbeat of what you're

562
00:28:02,556 --> 00:28:04,836
Speaker 3: trying to create on a team and with your product.

563
00:28:05,116 --> 00:28:07,876
Speaker 3: But Shasta says, we also need to find the opportunities

564
00:28:07,916 --> 00:28:10,756
Speaker 3: in time needed to open up. We have this belief

565
00:28:10,796 --> 00:28:12,716
Speaker 3: that we need to come into a team meeting and okay,

566
00:28:12,716 --> 00:28:15,396
Speaker 3: get through the agenda and not waste anybody's time. And

567
00:28:15,436 --> 00:28:18,356
Speaker 3: we treat agenda items as though they're the whole point

568
00:28:18,356 --> 00:28:21,316
Speaker 3: of why we're gathering. But it's amazing, it's not that

569
00:28:21,436 --> 00:28:24,076
Speaker 3: hard to take five minutes and say, share a little

570
00:28:24,076 --> 00:28:25,836
Speaker 3: bit of a highlight from your weekend. I mean it

571
00:28:25,836 --> 00:28:27,236
Speaker 3: can be as easy as that, or it could be

572
00:28:27,276 --> 00:28:28,956
Speaker 3: as big of let's share with each other one thing

573
00:28:28,956 --> 00:28:30,476
Speaker 3: that we are really proud of that we're doing at

574
00:28:30,476 --> 00:28:31,116
Speaker 3: work right now.

575
00:28:31,436 --> 00:28:33,476
Speaker 1: You might predict that sharing in this way would feel

576
00:28:33,476 --> 00:28:36,956
Speaker 1: awkward or uncomfortable, or that if your boss use this strategy,

577
00:28:37,116 --> 00:28:40,076
Speaker 1: you'd roll your eyes and withdraw. But Shasta says that

578
00:28:40,156 --> 00:28:42,196
Speaker 1: will help you get all the benefits that come from

579
00:28:42,196 --> 00:28:45,476
Speaker 1: feeling connected. Like most good things in life, opening up

580
00:28:45,636 --> 00:28:48,076
Speaker 1: does take a bit of effort and initial discomfort.

581
00:28:48,316 --> 00:28:51,276
Speaker 3: We understand on a physical health level that when we

582
00:28:51,356 --> 00:28:53,636
Speaker 3: go to the gym or when we go running, that

583
00:28:53,716 --> 00:28:55,396
Speaker 3: we need to sweat, and in fact, when we lift

584
00:28:55,396 --> 00:28:58,276
Speaker 3: weights our muscles actually tear a little bit. We actually

585
00:28:58,396 --> 00:29:01,316
Speaker 3: understand that physical health is on the other side of

586
00:29:01,356 --> 00:29:04,356
Speaker 3: exertion and sweat and muscle tearing. And yet when it

587
00:29:04,356 --> 00:29:06,436
Speaker 3: comes to our social health, I feel like as soon

588
00:29:06,476 --> 00:29:09,116
Speaker 3: as we kind of start socially sweating, so to speak,

589
00:29:09,236 --> 00:29:12,796
Speaker 3: or feel uncomfortable or get nervous, or get insecure or

590
00:29:12,836 --> 00:29:15,596
Speaker 3: get worried about rejection, well we think this isn't good.

591
00:29:15,636 --> 00:29:17,116
Speaker 3: I just need to go back to where it felt

592
00:29:17,116 --> 00:29:20,316
Speaker 3: convenient and safe. But we forget that social health is

593
00:29:20,356 --> 00:29:21,636
Speaker 3: on the other side of that.

594
00:29:22,756 --> 00:29:26,156
Speaker 1: When Catherine, whose Boston Globe article came out damning work friendships,

595
00:29:26,476 --> 00:29:29,076
Speaker 1: it caused quite a stir. She seemed to be saying

596
00:29:29,116 --> 00:29:31,036
Speaker 1: out loud something that a lot of people had been

597
00:29:31,076 --> 00:29:34,636
Speaker 1: thinking privately. But while many praised her candidness, lots of

598
00:29:34,636 --> 00:29:37,756
Speaker 1: people didn't agree with her extreme position. As I scrolled

599
00:29:37,756 --> 00:29:40,116
Speaker 1: through the comment section, I found more and more readers

600
00:29:40,156 --> 00:29:43,596
Speaker 1: who doubted that Catherine's strong stance against work friends would last.

601
00:29:43,916 --> 00:29:45,596
Speaker 1: And it turns out they were right.

602
00:29:45,916 --> 00:29:49,076
Speaker 2: It really started by just us all getting lunch at

603
00:29:49,076 --> 00:29:50,876
Speaker 2: the same time, Like if we were going to eat lunch,

604
00:29:50,876 --> 00:29:52,196
Speaker 2: we might as well all eat it together.

605
00:29:52,596 --> 00:29:56,836
Speaker 1: Catherine was an outspoken advocate for keeping office relationships purely professional,

606
00:29:56,996 --> 00:29:59,316
Speaker 1: but as she returned to an in person office, she

607
00:29:59,436 --> 00:30:01,916
Speaker 1: began more consistently hanging out with the folks she worked

608
00:30:01,956 --> 00:30:06,036
Speaker 1: with and having more and more positive experiences. Over time,

609
00:30:06,116 --> 00:30:10,396
Speaker 1: she began opening up, especially with one coworker in particular, MATEO.

610
00:30:10,716 --> 00:30:12,476
Speaker 2: I think at some point we just sort of sat

611
00:30:12,516 --> 00:30:15,836
Speaker 2: down and I was like, I really think we've transcended

612
00:30:16,356 --> 00:30:19,076
Speaker 2: being work friends, Like I think we are just really

613
00:30:19,156 --> 00:30:21,316
Speaker 2: close friends now, and I think that's kind of beautiful.

614
00:30:21,676 --> 00:30:24,036
Speaker 2: So for me, it was really just like being honest

615
00:30:24,076 --> 00:30:24,476
Speaker 2: about it.

616
00:30:24,836 --> 00:30:27,396
Speaker 1: So Catherine now has a bestie at work, and the

617
00:30:27,436 --> 00:30:32,036
Speaker 1: benefits Mateo's friendship brought quickly began outweighing the problems she'd anticipated.

618
00:30:32,116 --> 00:30:35,036
Speaker 2: There's no one else that really kind of understands that

619
00:30:35,236 --> 00:30:37,596
Speaker 2: level of what you're going through in that amount of

620
00:30:37,636 --> 00:30:39,916
Speaker 2: detail as someone else who's literally going through it as well.

621
00:30:40,036 --> 00:30:42,756
Speaker 2: So yeah, it has been really lovely.

622
00:30:42,756 --> 00:30:46,116
Speaker 1: And just as psychologist Robert Waldinger would have predicted, having

623
00:30:46,116 --> 00:30:48,156
Speaker 1: Mateo as a best friend on the job was a

624
00:30:48,236 --> 00:30:49,076
Speaker 1: huge stress reliever.

625
00:30:49,276 --> 00:30:53,316
Speaker 2: And you can talk about work together and sort of

626
00:30:53,436 --> 00:30:57,276
Speaker 2: have that safe space to like process and vent and

627
00:30:57,356 --> 00:31:00,396
Speaker 2: discuss things and then have that as a space where

628
00:31:00,436 --> 00:31:02,396
Speaker 2: it can allow you to come back to work happier

629
00:31:02,436 --> 00:31:06,156
Speaker 2: and healthier. It allows me to be more professional and

630
00:31:06,236 --> 00:31:08,436
Speaker 2: other aspects of my job too, because I know I

631
00:31:08,436 --> 00:31:11,196
Speaker 2: can process these things with someone who also got it.

632
00:31:11,236 --> 00:31:14,756
Speaker 2: You know, even my partner doesn't understand the exact contact

633
00:31:14,876 --> 00:31:17,556
Speaker 2: through which I go through forty hours of my week.

634
00:31:17,956 --> 00:31:21,036
Speaker 1: The pair now shares a great deal, but not everything.

635
00:31:21,876 --> 00:31:25,316
Speaker 1: Before our interview, Catherine hadn't really mentioned her previous and

636
00:31:25,356 --> 00:31:27,836
Speaker 1: well publicized rejection of work friendships.

637
00:31:28,076 --> 00:31:30,276
Speaker 2: When I got the email from you, he said, well,

638
00:31:30,276 --> 00:31:33,276
Speaker 2: if you're going to do the podcast, then I want

639
00:31:33,276 --> 00:31:35,876
Speaker 2: to read the article. And so I was like, okay, fine,

640
00:31:36,036 --> 00:31:37,676
Speaker 2: you can read it. It was time.

641
00:31:37,756 --> 00:31:39,036
Speaker 1: It was time. What did he say?

642
00:31:39,436 --> 00:31:42,236
Speaker 2: He, you know, is very kind about and he was like,

643
00:31:42,396 --> 00:31:45,116
Speaker 2: it is kind of funny now to read in hindsight,

644
00:31:45,276 --> 00:31:46,916
Speaker 2: but he also was very kind about and was just like,

645
00:31:46,996 --> 00:31:48,756
Speaker 2: it is really well written. You should be proud of.

646
00:31:48,716 --> 00:31:49,796
Speaker 1: The thoughts that you put out.

647
00:31:50,156 --> 00:31:53,436
Speaker 2: And you know, it was really nice to have that

648
00:31:53,476 --> 00:31:54,396
Speaker 2: sort of affirmation.

649
00:31:54,796 --> 00:31:56,756
Speaker 1: So he didn't feel like dis or anything.

650
00:31:56,836 --> 00:32:00,196
Speaker 2: But no, no, not at all, not at all, which

651
00:32:00,236 --> 00:32:00,556
Speaker 2: is great.

652
00:32:00,556 --> 00:32:04,556
Speaker 1: I'm very glad. Catherine still stands by the core thesis

653
00:32:04,556 --> 00:32:07,836
Speaker 1: of her viral article that work and work friendships don't

654
00:32:07,836 --> 00:32:10,676
Speaker 1: need to be your whole life, but she now recognizes

655
00:32:10,716 --> 00:32:12,756
Speaker 1: that what she learned in my Happiness class back in

656
00:32:12,756 --> 00:32:15,596
Speaker 1: the day was right that taking time to invest in

657
00:32:15,636 --> 00:32:18,356
Speaker 1: social connection on the job can offer more benefits than

658
00:32:18,396 --> 00:32:22,156
Speaker 1: she realized. Work friendships do have their challenges, but we

659
00:32:22,236 --> 00:32:25,516
Speaker 1: can't get the benefits without the drawbacks. So why not

660
00:32:25,596 --> 00:32:28,356
Speaker 1: take advantage of getting the happiness boost of social connection

661
00:32:28,556 --> 00:32:30,916
Speaker 1: at the same time as you get your paycheck. To

662
00:32:30,996 --> 00:32:33,876
Speaker 1: do so, I'd suggest, following the advice of a recent

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00:32:33,996 --> 00:32:35,716
Speaker 1: convert to the cause, I think I.

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00:32:35,716 --> 00:32:39,716
Speaker 2: Would really recommend that you go in with a level

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00:32:39,756 --> 00:32:43,356
Speaker 2: of vulnerability that allows for you to get something real

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00:32:43,516 --> 00:32:45,436
Speaker 2: out of a friendship and see if this is a

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00:32:45,476 --> 00:32:49,636
Speaker 2: friendship that you have chemistry in, for instance, but to

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00:32:49,676 --> 00:32:54,276
Speaker 2: also still balance that with protecting yourself and not oversharing

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Speaker 2: until you feel that you're ready, because you know, at

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00:32:57,796 --> 00:32:59,836
Speaker 2: the end of the day it is a workplace. If

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00:32:59,876 --> 00:33:03,356
Speaker 2: you can make a friend at work that becomes an

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00:33:03,356 --> 00:33:05,996
Speaker 2: outside of work friend, that is a really beautiful thing.

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Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab is co written and produced by Ryan

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00:33:19,476 --> 00:33:22,996
Speaker 1: dilly Our. Original music was composed by Zachary Silver, with

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00:33:23,036 --> 00:33:27,156
Speaker 1: additional scoring, mixing and mastering by Evan Viola. Jess Shane

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00:33:27,236 --> 00:33:30,956
Speaker 1: and Alice Fines offered additional production support. Special thanks to

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Speaker 1: my agent, Ben Davis and all of the Pushkin group.

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00:33:33,516 --> 00:33:36,036
Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab is brought to you by Pushkin Industries.

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Speaker 1: Any Doctor Laurie Santos