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Speaker 1: Times for drinking tea in idle moments, when bored with poetry,

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Speaker 1: thoughts confused, beating time to songs when music stops. Living

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Speaker 1: in seclusion, enjoying scholarly pastimes, conversing late at night, studying

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Speaker 1: on a sunny day in the bridal chamber, detaining favored guests,

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Speaker 1: playing host to scholars or pretty girls, visiting friends returned

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Speaker 1: from far away in perfect weather, when skies are overcast,

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Speaker 1: watching boats glide past on the canal, midst trees and bamboos,

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Speaker 1: when flowers bud and birds chat on hot days by

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Speaker 1: a lotus pond, burning incense in the courtyard after tipsy

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Speaker 1: guests have left, when the youngsters have gone out on

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Speaker 1: visits to secluded temples, when viewing springs and scenic rocks.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind production of My

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you, welcome to stuff to blow your mind.

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Speaker 1: This is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and that

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Speaker 1: opening up the episode. There, that's the one last key poem. Uh.

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Speaker 1: This one is also collected in a History of t

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Speaker 1: The Life and Times of the World's Favorite Beverage by

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Speaker 1: Laura C. Martin, which is one of my sources for

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Speaker 1: these episodes. This is a poem by Sue see Shoe,

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Speaker 1: which I like it. You know, I guess it's kind

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Speaker 1: of simple format here, but yeah, it's basically saying you

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Speaker 1: can drink tea anytime. Anytime is a great time to

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Speaker 1: drink tea. But here are some specific examples. So yes,

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Speaker 1: pizza in the morning, pizza in the evening. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: this is our third and I think this will be

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Speaker 1: our our final for now episode on T. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It's certainly a topic we could always come back to.

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Speaker 1: It's a topic we could keep doing. But then if

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Speaker 1: we did over to do that, we would be a

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Speaker 1: tea podcast. And we're not exclusively a T podcast, but

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of great looking, exclusively T related

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Speaker 1: podcasts out there. Uh so, certainly feel free to continue

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Speaker 1: your T journey with other shows. And if there's a

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Speaker 1: particular topic related to T that seems like something we

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Speaker 1: should cover, well we can always come back and do that.

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Speaker 1: But if you didn't listen to the first two episodes

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Speaker 1: on T, I highly recommend you go back and listen

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Speaker 1: to those. We talked about, Oh, the botany of tea. Um,

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Speaker 1: we talked about a lot of the history of tea.

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Speaker 1: We're going to conclude the basic Chinese and Japanese history

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Speaker 1: of te in this episode, with a few other bits

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Speaker 1: and pieces in there. We also talked about tea mythology

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Speaker 1: in the first episode. Now before we move on and

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Speaker 1: and also get into some of these uh these interesting tangents.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to clarify what we said in the last

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Speaker 1: section about the phases of tea because I think this

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Speaker 1: can get confusing. So you have kind of like the

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Speaker 1: emitive tea level, where it would be tea leaves dropped

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Speaker 1: into boiling water, creating a bitter brew. Then you have

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Speaker 1: this phase one of tea. This is where you have

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Speaker 1: leaves dried and pressed into bricks, and then when you

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Speaker 1: go to make it, you cut some of that brick off,

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Speaker 1: you put it in water and it ends up being

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Speaker 1: kind of coarse in acidic. But this was kind of

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Speaker 1: like the first phase, the first uh era of tea.

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Speaker 1: Then comes phase two, where the leaves are steam dried

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Speaker 1: and ground into a fine powder whipped into hot water.

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Speaker 1: This is the Mancha style of tea. It's fresher as

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Speaker 1: a fresher grassy or flavor. And then eventually you get

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Speaker 1: to phase three, where you have steamed, cut, dried, oxidized,

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Speaker 1: and sorted and steeped tea that creates basically most of

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Speaker 1: the modern flavors of tea that we think of today. Now,

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Speaker 1: there there are plenty of examples that kind of blur

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Speaker 1: the line. You can still certainly get brick or cake, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: Tease that are oxidized. Um Mancha teas are still used

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Speaker 1: as well. Uh so it's um then look at this.

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Speaker 1: It's just like a strict evolution of form with past

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Speaker 1: forms completely falling away. But I think it is a

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Speaker 1: good structure to think of when we think about the

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Speaker 1: evolution of tea. And as far as phase three goes,

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Speaker 1: we will be getting into that later in this episode. Now, Rob,

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Speaker 1: before we do that, you actually inspired me to go

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Speaker 1: on a couple of tangents about teapots in this episode,

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Speaker 1: because while I am not much of a tea drinker,

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Speaker 1: for many years I did have an intimate relationship with

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Speaker 1: a tea kettle that lived on my stovetop, and most

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Speaker 1: of that relationship was one of strife and agony. I

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Speaker 1: really disliked this tea kettle for a number of reasons,

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Speaker 1: and and one of them, uh, is as follows, Rob,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you've had this experience a million times, whether

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Speaker 1: it's from a poorly designed or vintage tea pot, or

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Speaker 1: I guess from any vessel containing liquid. You fill it

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Speaker 1: up and you go to pour it out into a

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Speaker 1: cup or a bowl, but instead of pouring in a

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Speaker 1: steady arc where you aimed it, the liquid coming out

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Speaker 1: of the spout clings to the underside of the teapot

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Speaker 1: spout and then runs down the side of the pot

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Speaker 1: and dribbles all over the table or the floor or

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Speaker 1: your pants. I have certainly encountered this before. Fortunately, our

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Speaker 1: current teapot it doesn't do this, or at least doesn't

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Speaker 1: do this so much. But I have certainly encountered this before.

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Speaker 1: The one that I'm thinking of had a very kind

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Speaker 1: of wide, round, almost pipe like spout, and uh yeah,

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Speaker 1: it did this all the time. So this is a

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Speaker 1: phenomenon that is well known in physics. It actually has

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Speaker 1: a name. It's called the teapot effect. Though it doesn't

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Speaker 1: just happen in teapots, it occurs when pouring from all

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Speaker 1: kinds of containers. I think it is probably one of

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Speaker 1: the most common sources of spills and stains around the

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Speaker 1: kitchen when you know, when you're trying to pour out

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Speaker 1: of one container and it just doesn't pour the way

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Speaker 1: you intended. It doesn't arc like you meant it too.

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Speaker 1: Instead it runs down the side mm hmm. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: I think I have certainly encountered this even more with

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Speaker 1: with other pouring vessels. Uh. And the often it will

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Speaker 1: be something you know, bright and colorful or sticky that

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Speaker 1: I really don't want to get everywhere. I think I

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Speaker 1: was trying to think about situations where I encounter it

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Speaker 1: the most, and before understanding all of the underlying physics,

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Speaker 1: the things that occurred to me worre that it happens

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Speaker 1: when you're trying to pour a liquid slowly, especially out

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Speaker 1: of a container without a designated pouring lips. So like

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Speaker 1: if you're trying to pour liquid, say out of a

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Speaker 1: saucepan or out of a drinking glass, that's drible. City.

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Speaker 1: Yeah and yeah, especially this will occur, at least in

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Speaker 1: my experience, where you have to say, like you're gonna

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Speaker 1: pour orange juice out of an orange juice container, and

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Speaker 1: the orange juice container has just been opened, it's super

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Speaker 1: filled up, you know, so you have this impulse to

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Speaker 1: want to pour slowly in order to control the juice

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Speaker 1: which is already almost overflowing. But if you do so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna get that dribble more often than not. You've

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Speaker 1: got to commit and really just swash it in there.

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Speaker 1: But why does the dribbling happen? Well, it turns out

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Speaker 1: the answer is not simple at all, and there have

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Speaker 1: been fluid dynamics and rayology papers. Reology is the study

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Speaker 1: of how matter flows, so the flow of fluids or

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Speaker 1: plastic plastic solids um reyology and fluid dynamics papers on

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Speaker 1: this tricky subject going back at least as far as

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Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties. UH, there was an investigation of the

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Speaker 1: teapot effect that in fact even one an Ignobel Prize

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Speaker 1: in nine that you can see how that fits with

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Speaker 1: their kind of like a quaint, quirky sense of humor

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Speaker 1: like teapots. But it looks like a fairly definitive paper

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Speaker 1: on the UH. This question came out in one and

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Speaker 1: it was by Bernhard Schickel, Robert I, Bowls and Georgios

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Speaker 1: pass called developed liquid film passing a smooth and wedge

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Speaker 1: shaped trailing edge small scale analysis and the teapot effect

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Speaker 1: at large Reynolds numbers. This was published in the Journal

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Speaker 1: of Fluid Mechanics. Again, by the way, if you scroll

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Speaker 1: through this paper and check out the diagrams and equations,

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Speaker 1: it's almost hilarious, Like you would be shocked how complicated

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Speaker 1: this looks. I'm not even going to pretend that I

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Speaker 1: could make sense of it. Like I was trying to

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Speaker 1: look and hack through this paper. I'm like, oh, this

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Speaker 1: is hopeless. So instead I found a good article summarizing

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Speaker 1: the results that includes an interview with one of the

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Speaker 1: lead authors. Uh. The article was by Jennifer Woollett for

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Speaker 1: Ours Technica and UH this paper so it was a

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Speaker 1: collaboration between researchers at the Vienna University of Technology and

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Speaker 1: University College London. And they say that their their paper

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Speaker 1: here is a complete theoretical description of the teapot effect,

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Speaker 1: which has eluded these researchers for decades. Finally they've got

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Speaker 1: all the forces modeled here correctly, so they can fully

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Speaker 1: predict to what what happens with a with a tea

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Speaker 1: spout of various designs pouring in different ways. And they

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Speaker 1: say the teapot effect has to include inertial viscous and

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Speaker 1: capillary forces. So it turns out one of the major

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Speaker 1: factors influencing whether the liquid dribbles or not is as

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Speaker 1: you and I both intuited from our experience flow rate.

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Speaker 1: Uh two people who have like less experience in the kitchen.

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Speaker 1: I think this might sound counterintuitive because, as you know,

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Speaker 1: you you were saying rob a lot of times when

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Speaker 1: you're trying to be careful and not spill something, your

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Speaker 1: instinct is to pour slowly because pouring slowly seems like

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Speaker 1: it's the careful option, right. But as matches our experience,

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Speaker 1: at a higher flow rate, when liquid is coming out

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Speaker 1: of the teapot or container faster, this actually makes the

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Speaker 1: pouring action less likely to end up dribbling. That is

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Speaker 1: how you are more likely to get the arc you're intending.

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Speaker 1: It's actually once you start trying to pour slowly, the

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Speaker 1: dribbling becomes more likely. Uh. So you know, you can

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Speaker 1: imagine all kinds of scenarios here, like if you're trying

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Speaker 1: to pour something out slowly to carefully measure a volume

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Speaker 1: of liquid into another container like a measuring cup, or

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Speaker 1: maybe you're trying to pour something in a slow stream

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Speaker 1: to whisk and emulsify it. You've seen people doing that.

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Speaker 1: They dribble all the time. Oh yeah, and I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: especially like making cocktails and measuring out the various components.

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Speaker 1: This is why the sides of your bottles are sticky. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so fast steady pouring dribbles less. Uh. The design of

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Speaker 1: the lip of the teapot or pouring container also matters.

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Speaker 1: There were some French physicists who wrote a paper on

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Speaker 1: this in two and they suggested that you could fight

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Speaker 1: the teapot effect by making the lip of the spout

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Speaker 1: as thin and as sharp ended as possible, so like

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Speaker 1: round tips are more likely to dribble. And apparently it

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Speaker 1: also helped to coat the end of the spout in

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Speaker 1: water repellent material so that the liquid or water based

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Speaker 1: liquid doesn't want to cling to the underside of the lip.

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Speaker 1: And this seems to be because the dribbling is partially

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Speaker 1: the result of what the researchers call a hydro capillary effect. Basically,

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Speaker 1: whenever you start to pour water based liquid out of

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Speaker 1: a container, drops will form on the underside of the

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Speaker 1: lip of the edge you're pouring from the like the

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Speaker 1: spout of a teapot. So you know, the water is

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Speaker 1: coming out of the spout, but then on the underside

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Speaker 1: of that spout there's gonna be some droplet formation, and

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Speaker 1: the rate at which you pour determines how big those

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Speaker 1: drops on the underside of the lip get. A high

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Speaker 1: flow rate keeps them small, but a slow pouring allows

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Speaker 1: the drops on the underside to become larger. And once

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Speaker 1: those drops reach a certain critical size, once they get

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Speaker 1: big enough, they actually start to grab hold of the

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Speaker 1: water or tea or whatever that's coming out of the

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Speaker 1: spout and redirect its flow down the side of the

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Speaker 1: container instead of the arc that you're aiming for. Now,

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Speaker 1: there was a thing that I was thinking about. This

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Speaker 1: is another design feature that I didn't see mentioned in UH,

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Speaker 1: in this summary, or in any of the papers I

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Speaker 1: was looking at. But it's one that I've seen in

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Speaker 1: some kettle designs, UH, and it's a teapot spout. They

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Speaker 1: can have an upward arcing curve right before the opening

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Speaker 1: of the spout. For example, you see this on some

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Speaker 1: goose neck kettles. Rob. I've got an example for you

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Speaker 1: to look at here if you scroll down, UH, if

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Speaker 1: you try to picture it, it's kind of a curving

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Speaker 1: swan neck shape. Um, I don't know why I said

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Speaker 1: swan neck. They're they're literally called goose neck. So that

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Speaker 1: the curving shape where if you imagine it in pouring

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Speaker 1: position and you're you're trying to think how the liquid

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Speaker 1: would have to travel to run down the bottom of

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Speaker 1: the spout, it would literally have to go sort of

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Speaker 1: uphill first before it would be able to run down

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Speaker 1: the spout. And I think this also helps it, uh

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Speaker 1: not do that. One last thing that I thought was

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Speaker 1: pretty interesting, so they had to model all these forces

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Speaker 1: that determine whether or not liquid dribbles when it's coming

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Speaker 1: out again. Those forces include an inertial, viscous, and capillary forces,

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Speaker 1: but there was actually very little role for gravity. Gravity

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Speaker 1: does not play a major role in causing the teapot effect,

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Speaker 1: meaning that tea pots will still dribble on the Moon

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Speaker 1: or in other low gravity environments. That reminds me I

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Speaker 1: was looking around for this episode. I briefly looked into

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Speaker 1: drinking tea in orbit, and I didn't find anything that

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Speaker 1: I was really compelled to include here. But I did

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Speaker 1: see some footage of of of an astronaut having their

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Speaker 1: tea with chopsticks, like eating the little floating globs of tea. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I see out of the atmosphere with with their chopsticks. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: just grabbing like so, I guess with the surface tension,

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Speaker 1: it's like a little blob of tea floating and then

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Speaker 1: you like put the chopsticks in it and it sticks

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Speaker 1: to them. Yeah, yeah, thank thank thank, Okay. So that's

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Speaker 1: the physical teapot tangent. What about the philosophical teapot tangent. Well,

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Speaker 1: I thought it would be interesting to very briefly talk

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Speaker 1: about Russell's teapot, one of the most famous teapots in

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Speaker 1: the world. It's not a physical artifact. It is a

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Speaker 1: thought experiment used by Bertrand Russell to explain a certain

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Speaker 1: form of skeptical reasoning, specifically, in his case, to support

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Speaker 1: his lack of belief in God, though I think it

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Speaker 1: could be applied to other scenarios. Now, I want to

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Speaker 1: front load a caveat and say that some theistic philosophers

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Speaker 1: think they have good arguments for why Russell's teapot analogy

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Speaker 1: does not or should not apply to beliefs about God.

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Speaker 1: But even if you're inclined to agree with those critics,

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Speaker 1: I think the teapot is useful to think about for

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Speaker 1: a more general analogy for different types of leafs that

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Speaker 1: we hold and claims that we make. So very very

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Speaker 1: brief biographical background. Bertrand Russell lived from eighteen seventy two

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Speaker 1: to nineteen seventy He was a famous British philosopher and

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Speaker 1: public intellectual who was incredibly influential in a number of

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Speaker 1: different fields. So he was pre eminent in his academic

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Speaker 1: fields of logic and analytic philosophy, but he was also

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Speaker 1: a big cultural figure in in Britain and an advocate

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Speaker 1: for political causes such as anti imperialism, socialism, and nuclear disarmament.

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Speaker 1: But Russell was also infamous for being non religious. Uh.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty two he was asked to write an

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Speaker 1: essay for a London magazine called Illustrated, which came to

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Speaker 1: be called Is There a God? And Uh? I think

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Speaker 1: the essay was actually scrapped and not published in the

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Speaker 1: originally intended venue, but Russell expanded upon it later and

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Speaker 1: released it. And in the essay, Russell uses the analogy

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Speaker 1: of a teapot floating in space to explain his doubts

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Speaker 1: about the existence of God. So I'm going to read

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Speaker 1: from his essay here, and then we can uh, we

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Speaker 1: can analyze a little bit. So Russell says, many Orthodox

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Speaker 1: people speak as though it were the business of skeptics

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Speaker 1: to disprove received dogmas, rather than of dogmatists to prove them.

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Speaker 1: This is, of course a mistake. If I were to

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Speaker 1: suggest that between Earth and Mars there is a China

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Speaker 1: teapot revolving around the Sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody

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Speaker 1: would be able to disprove my assertion, provided I were

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Speaker 1: careful to add that the teapot is too small to

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Speaker 1: be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if

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Speaker 1: I were to go on to say that, since my

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Speaker 1: assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the

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Speaker 1: part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly

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Speaker 1: be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence

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Speaker 1: of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught

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Speaker 1: as sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds

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Speaker 1: of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence

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Speaker 1: would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter

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Speaker 1: to the attentions of the psychiatrist. In an enlightened age

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Speaker 1: or of the inquisitor at an earlier time. Now to

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Speaker 1: take a moment to be fair to Russell's critics, I

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Speaker 1: think they make some I'm not sure what I think

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Speaker 1: about this, some potentially good points about the belief in

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Speaker 1: the teapot not actually being analogous to belief in an

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Speaker 1: omnipotent creator God, because they say, for example, the teapot

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Speaker 1: is an object in the world that could only plausibly

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Speaker 1: have come to orbit the Sun if humans had put

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Speaker 1: it there, which we would probably know about if it

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Speaker 1: had happened. Meanwhile, God would not be an object in

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Speaker 1: the world, but like the creator of the world or

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Speaker 1: somehow standing outside the world. And therefore, according to these

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Speaker 1: theistic philosophers, the existence of God is like a proposition

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Speaker 1: that is just not analogous to the existence of any

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Speaker 1: physical object or entity that you could search for in

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Speaker 1: physical space. So I think a good way of phrasing

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Speaker 1: this objection is that they're saying, well, belief in God

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Speaker 1: is not a claim about something that exists in the universe,

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Speaker 1: but rather a claim about the way the universe is.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to try to adjudicate that particular dispute

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Speaker 1: about whether Russell is right that this is a good

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Speaker 1: analogy for religious beliefs in God, or whether the critics

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Speaker 1: are right that it is not. But either way, I

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Speaker 1: think it is a useful thought experiment in a more

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Speaker 1: general sense because it reminds us not to be taken

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Speaker 1: in easily by unfalsifiable claims. And uh, there's another thought

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Speaker 1: experiment right along these lines that we've talked about on

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Speaker 1: the show before. You might if you listen for a while,

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Speaker 1: you might remember it. The thought experiment by Carl Sagan,

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Speaker 1: The invisible Dragon in his garage. So Carl Sagan says, hey,

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Speaker 1: I've got a dragon that lives in my garage. And

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Speaker 1: if you doubt this, you you might say, well, okay,

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Speaker 1: take me to your garage. I want to see it.

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Speaker 1: And then Sagan says, no, no, no, no, no, you

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Speaker 1: got it all wrong. It's an invisible dragon, so you

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Speaker 1: shouldn't expect to be able to see it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you can look, but you're not gonna see it. It

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Speaker 1: is there, though, And then you could say, well, okay,

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Speaker 1: then let's walk around in your garage, you know, with

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Speaker 1: our hands out stretched and feel around for it until

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Speaker 1: we finally come upon this dragons invisible scaly back, and

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Speaker 1: once again Sagan can say, no, no, hold on, it

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Speaker 1: is also an incorporeal dragon. It is made of spirit matter,

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Speaker 1: not solid matter, So you shouldn't expect to be able

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Speaker 1: to touch it. You know that that wouldn't disprove it,

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Speaker 1: that you can't feel it, And then you could go

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Speaker 1: through more stages. I think he says that it's you

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Speaker 1: might suggest, well, what if we use like an infrared

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Speaker 1: heat detector, uh, And then he could say no, no,

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Speaker 1: it is a it's a dragon that does not produce

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Speaker 1: any heat, and so on and so on. You can

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Speaker 1: go moving the goal posts of detection always backwards, so

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Speaker 1: there's no way to really check and see if the

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Speaker 1: dragon is really there. I think the main point of

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Speaker 1: both of these analogies, Russell's teapot and Carl Sagan's invisible Dragon,

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Speaker 1: is that people can always try to get you to

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Speaker 1: believe things by shifting the obligation of evidence onto you

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Speaker 1: for doubting the existence, rather than assuming that obligation themselves

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Speaker 1: for for claiming the existence. So it's the the attitude

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Speaker 1: of if I say X is true and you can't

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Speaker 1: disprove it, you must accept it. And this is made

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Speaker 1: doubly dangerous by like the rebuke of all potential investigatory tests.

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Speaker 1: So in the case of Carl Sagan's dragon, that's like,

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Speaker 1: oh no, no, no, it's invisible and you can't touch it. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and it wouldn't show up on infrared. But in the

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Speaker 1: case of Russell's teapot analogy, it's that, well, the teapot

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Speaker 1: is too small to see with any of our telescopes,

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Speaker 1: but but I tell you it is there. And the

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Speaker 1: point of both of these analogies is essentially I say X,

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Speaker 1: if you can't disprove it, you must accept it. Is

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Speaker 1: not a legitimate way to reason, because that type of

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Speaker 1: argument could be it could be used to force you

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Speaker 1: to believe in a teapot orbiting the sun or an

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Speaker 1: invisible dragon in the garage. Reasonable claims are based on evidence,

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Speaker 1: and most importantly, they are falsifiable. They entail certain physical predictions,

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Speaker 1: like you should be able to see what I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about if you look here, or you should be able

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Speaker 1: to detect, you know, the heat signature of the dragon

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Speaker 1: if you look here, And if those predictions turn up false,

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Speaker 1: the belief is probably false. Yeah, And so to your point,

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Speaker 1: like that one of the big applications here, of course,

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Speaker 1: is like conspiracy thinking today, where there are plenty of

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Speaker 1: examples of this where it will be some you know,

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Speaker 1: ultimately kind of ridiculous or outrageous or perhaps supernatural claim

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Speaker 1: and then it's presented as if it is on us

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Speaker 1: to disprove this, when really that that's that's not the

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Speaker 1: way it goes. And I think you see a more

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Speaker 1: or I tend to see a more rational approach to

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Speaker 1: this with some of the impossible or currently impossible to

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Speaker 1: prove hypotheses so that we've discussed on the show before,

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Speaker 1: like say the bacameral mind hypothesis or the stone ape

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Speaker 1: hypothesis like these are both I think examples of very

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Speaker 1: thought provoking ideas that cannot be proved or disproved, at

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Speaker 1: least not currently. And I also don't see the major

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Speaker 1: um advocates of these hypotheses demanding that scientists disproved them

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Speaker 1: like they seem to. They they understand how Russell's teapot

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Speaker 1: or the invisible dragon works here, and they know that

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Speaker 1: it's on them to to make the argument and provide

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Speaker 1: the proof if there is such a thing. Yes, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think it's fair to play around in speculative territory,

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Speaker 1: but to always be hyper conscious to signal and and

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Speaker 1: remind yourself and remind others that that's what you're doing.

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Speaker 1: We're playing around in speculative territory, rather than getting too

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Speaker 1: attached to like a fun and interesting idea that maybe

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Speaker 1: doesn't have a lot of strong evidence for it and

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Speaker 1: insisting that people should believe it. Yeah, and with time,

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Speaker 1: who knows, with time and research, perhaps new evidence will

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Speaker 1: come around to support a given hypothesis or idea. But

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Speaker 1: then the reverse there may very well happen as well,

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Speaker 1: or it could be just something again that's completely in

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Speaker 1: the realm of of of of no evidence, where there's

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Speaker 1: never going to be any additional evidence to back this

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Speaker 1: up one way or the other. But I think one

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Speaker 1: of the points that Russell and um Sagan are making here,

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Speaker 1: and I totally agree with this, is that if you

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Speaker 1: have a good theory, the theory should include within itself

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Speaker 1: ways of checking to know if the theory were wrong.

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Speaker 1: So a theory should entail predictions about the world, and

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Speaker 1: you know, all all our good scientific theories do, and

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Speaker 1: then you could go and check if those theories, if

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Speaker 1: those predictions turn out true, and if it's a good theory,

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Speaker 1: those predictions will turn out true. And if it's there's

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Speaker 1: something wrong with the theory, those predictions will not turn

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Speaker 1: out true. And if it's a really bad theory, it

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Speaker 1: and in fact will not make predictions at all. It

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Speaker 1: will just be sort of in this unfalsifiable space where

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Speaker 1: it's like, well, there's no way to check if it's true.

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Speaker 1: I've also found if you were addressing doubters or your

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Speaker 1: enemies within the first couple of paragraphs of laying out

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Speaker 1: a given hypothesis, then that's a that's a real red flag.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god. Yes, that's one of the best. And

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Speaker 1: I've encountered that at least a couple of times. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: One last point I want to emphasize, though this is

427
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 1: also from that Bertrand Russell quote. He goes on to

428
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 1: argue that the fact that some beliefs are already held

429
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 1: by many people gives those beliefs a superficial appearance of rationality,

430
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 1: even if there is no more evidence underlying them. Then

431
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 1: there is for an obviously absurd belief that you can

432
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,160
Speaker 1: make up on the spot, such as a teapot randomly

433
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 1: floating in space, and I think this is a really

434
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 1: good point that people should always keep in mind, because

435
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 1: even if you are for the most part of skeptical person,

436
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 1: you will probably have biases along these lines. And I'll

437
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 1: explain in a second. But according to Russell, it's like,

438
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,640
Speaker 1: we only notice that the teapot claim is absurd because

439
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 1: it is novel, because he just made it up on

440
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 1: the spot. If people went around appearing to sincerely believe

441
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 1: in the teapot, I think it truly would start to

442
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 1: seem less absurd and it might start to get you know,

443
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 1: equal time in the panel discussion on the news, like um,

444
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: Like one example, why does it seem I would say,

445
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 1: even to me, I have no beliefs in the healing

446
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 1: powers of crystals, but why does it's just feel more

447
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 1: plausible to me that crystals have literal healing properties then

448
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: that driftwood has literal healing properties. They're both beautiful natural objects.

449
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 1: If you want to fill your house up with them

450
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 1: or put them by your bedside and all that, I

451
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: think that's wonderful, But I don't think they like literally

452
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 1: emit vibrations that drive away sickness or something. And I'd

453
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: have to argue that the crystal proposition feels more plausible somehow,

454
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 1: even though I don't believe it. And the reason is

455
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,959
Speaker 1: that this belief is familiar, and the driftwood belief is not.

456
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 1: People have been saying this about crystals. People seem to

457
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: believe it, so you just kind there's this feeling in

458
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: your gut. Then it was like, well, there must be

459
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 1: something to it then, But the fact that people say

460
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 1: something does not necessarily give it any credence, even though

461
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 1: it does have this power of giving it the superficial

462
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 1: appearance of rationality. And you know what, I would say

463
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: exactly the same thing is true of a lot of

464
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 1: conspiracy beliefs, like you were talking about a minute ago,

465
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: that like, once somebody has said something and appears to

466
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 1: sincerely believe it, suddenly you kind of have this feeling

467
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 1: in your gut like, oh, well, maybe there's something to

468
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: that then, Whereas if somebody had said the same thing

469
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 1: in the context of a thought experiment where they're obviously

470
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 1: just making up an absurd belief on purpose on the spot,

471
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 1: it wouldn't have that feeling. Yeah, yeah, I know what

472
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: you mean here. Um, the driftwood is a great example

473
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,959
Speaker 1: because I could imagine it being supported and brought up

474
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 1: enough if someone were to champion the healing powers of driftwood,

475
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: if there were stores that sold healing driftwood, then that

476
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:01,919
Speaker 1: that idea would just be out there enough for you

477
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 1: to sort of buy into it. Likewise, even the teapot um,

478
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: you know, outside of it's it's it's traditional place here

479
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 1: um as a symbol of how we should think about

480
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 1: outrageous claims. You could imagine a scenario where someone is

481
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: making an argument like, yeah, we we think there's a

482
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 1: teapot out there, like there's a face on Mars and

483
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 1: there is a teapot. How they're floating in space and uh,

484
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:27,679
Speaker 1: and we need to figure out why it's there. We

485
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 1: have a few theories, you know. Um. So like if

486
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: you it kind of comes down to the whole situation

487
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 1: of the old reality off you say a lie enough times,

488
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 1: then people will begin to believe it on some level,

489
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 1: Like you've just created the internal reality of the thing

490
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: enough to where people can't quite get it out of

491
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 1: their mind. I mean, a favorite trick of the political demagogue,

492
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 1: it's it's kind of scary how much if you just

493
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 1: say something and now this is an idea that has

494
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: to be discussed and taken seriously, even if there's literally

495
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: no evidence for it at all. Yeah, if there were

496
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 1: a teapot, though, just for the sake of our arguments,

497
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,199
Speaker 1: do you think it would be a like an ornate

498
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 1: historical teapot. Do you think it'd be like a simple

499
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 1: like earthenware teapot, or would it be like a space

500
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 1: age teapot from another Why are you even asked? Obviously

501
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 1: it would be a novelty Garfield head teapot. Oh, well

502
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 1: that's good. Yes, you know what does have healing properties?

503
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 1: Is Garfield merchandise? Yes, well, to some people it may

504
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: have slight um healing properties. Really, there's a whole comparison

505
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 1: there you could probbably make to tea. You know, we

506
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 1: we we again are not going to get into the

507
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: healing powers of tea too much, but outside of any

508
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: actual properties involved in the tea itself, outside of like

509
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: what is like actually happening in your body when you

510
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 1: drink tea. But by this point, like tea has so

511
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 1: many ritualistic um associations, cultural associations, and personal associations that

512
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: there is a comfort kind of going back to that

513
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: that poem. There there are all these circumstances where it

514
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: is the right time, it is the appropriate time, it

515
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: is the comforting time to have a cup of tea,

516
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: and uh and therefore, yeah, I mean to at least

517
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 1: some extent, like any cup of tea is going to

518
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: do you good if you were a t person. Well,

519
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: this gets back to, yeah, what we were talking about

520
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: in the previous episode about the uh, the studies on

521
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 1: the health effects of tea. I mean, it looks again

522
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: there are a lot of persistent methodological problems with studies

523
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: like this, but it looks on the whole like tea

524
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: may very well have some positive health benefits. But it's

525
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 1: just really hard to study stuff like this because it's

526
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: not like a new drug that nobody was taking anyway.

527
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: It's something that is deeply enmeshed in culture and in

528
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: people's lives and in all this so it's a lot

529
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: harder to isolate the like chemical mechanical properties of the

530
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 1: molecules that enter your body when you drink tea, and

531
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: like do these really fight disease? Or when you're studying

532
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 1: correlations between t use and other health outcomes, is that

533
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 1: a secondary effect of some other correlation Just because it's

534
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: it's so much a part of human life. It's it's

535
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: so much harder to study. This reminds me of a

536
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 1: point I may come back to when we talk about

537
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 1: the the introduction of tea into Japan. Oh well, on

538
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 1: that note, let's let's get back into uh your notes

539
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: on the history of tea in China and Japan. Now

540
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: where do we leave off with with the history and

541
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: development of tea? In the last episode, I believe we

542
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: pretty much reached the end dynasty. So this was a

543
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: period when the Mongols ruled China from the early twelve

544
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 1: hundreds through thirteen sixty eight. And as we I believe,

545
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: as we noted in the last episode, when you when

546
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: you have a period of outsider rule in China, historically

547
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: you tend to see a decline in te popularity. And

548
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: I know, we we talked about this a little bit.

549
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: You kind of ask, well, you know why, why is

550
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 1: that exactly? And I thought, well, this would be a good,

551
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: good example here. I wanted to go a little deeper

552
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: into it. So I looked at a few different sources

553
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 1: on this particular scenario, because on one level, it's not

554
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: to say that the Mongols didn't like tea. They had

555
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: already been exposed to Chinese tea trade earlier and apparently

556
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: took to it. They valued it as a digestive aid,

557
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: among other things. Some of the sources I was looking

558
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: at pointed out that there were particularities of like the

559
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: traditional Mongol diet where it was nice to have a

560
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: big caffeine punch to sort of move things along, you know.

561
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: And also we have to remember, like there's there's definitely

562
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: cultural transference. I mean, this is one of the sort

563
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: of the famous aspects of of Mongol rule in China

564
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 1: is that the this the these new rulers take on

565
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 1: a lot of Chinese cultural things and uh, and so

566
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: that the transference is going to go both ways. But

567
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 1: but I've seen this mention of a decline and te

568
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: popularity during this period noted in multiple sources. Now there

569
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: is an added wrinkle that I've seen discussed regarding the

570
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: Marco Polo account. Uh, And I don't want to get

571
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 1: into all the ins and outs of that and arguments

572
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 1: about like how his roly accurate. We should consider the

573
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: Marco Polo account that account barely mentions tea despite his

574
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: visit supposedly taking place during this time. Um, but we

575
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: know through other sources that there were plenty of tea

576
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: houses still operating during this time period. And I think

577
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 1: I've seen it argued as well that, Okay, if we

578
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: were to take the Marco Polo account it face value,

579
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: he was ultimately more interested in things that were Mongolian,

580
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: and he saw tea as this non mongol thing and

581
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 1: therefore didn't pay as much attention to it. Mm hm.

582
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 1: So you could say maybe he especially because he's interested

583
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: in trade, he's interested in in dealing with the cultural

584
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: artifacts of say, the dominant culture at the time, the

585
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: politically dominant culture. Yeah, and I think it. It would

586
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: also line up with some of the things I've read

587
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 1: about how the Mongols they didn't like outlock tea or anything,

588
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 1: but he became just another beverage during this period, so

589
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: they valued it, but they didn't ail as they did,

590
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: uh like we see in UM previous and subsequent dynasties

591
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: in China. And I was reading about some of this

592
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: on All the Tea in China from nineteen ninety book

593
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: by Choo and Cramer. But now another source I was

594
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: looking at is by Valerie Sartor. This was published in UM,

595
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 1: the American Journal of Chinese Studies. In two thousand and

596
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: seven is a paper title All the Tea in China

597
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 1: The Political Impact of Tea. Again. They're both that the

598
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: previous book you talked about in this paper both called

599
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: all the Tea in China It's just irresistible. You gotta

600
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: go with it, okay anyway. In in in this paper,

601
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: Startup points out that the Mongol rule in China again

602
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: the in dynasty didn't put as much emphasis on Chinese

603
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: tea culture or pay a lot of attention to traditional

604
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: tea customs. However, they definitely liked it. They adopted the

605
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: salting of their tea and mixing it with milk, and

606
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 1: at the same time, traditional Chinese tea houses remain popular

607
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: hangouts for scholars and poets. In two thousand fives Tea

608
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 1: and Chinese Culture by Ling Wang, it's pointed out that

609
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 1: the Mongol rule during the End dynasty was not not

610
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,359
Speaker 1: only ruled by a non Han ethnic minority, it also

611
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: filled many of its key positions with ethnic minorities as well.

612
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: Wang points out that while the Mongols during this time

613
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: really took to tea, they also pushed things towards a

614
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,839
Speaker 1: mass produced product for the masses. And pushed away from

615
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 1: uh you know, the more like say, exotic animal shaped

616
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,359
Speaker 1: tea cakes that have been popular in China prior, uh

617
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 1: to their coming to power. So uh, you know, again,

618
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 1: I think it's a more complicated, seeming historical issue than

619
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 1: one might expect. But but but I wonder if we

620
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,720
Speaker 1: might think of it as being kind of a cultural

621
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,359
Speaker 1: shift away from the glamor of tea as opposed to

622
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 1: like a you know, an abandonment of tea or or

623
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 1: a decline of tea really was still valued culturally among

624
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 1: the Chinese as a beverage and a medicine, but it

625
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: wasn't maintained as a socially elite thing with a kind

626
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 1: of trickle down effects of that social elitism, uh that

627
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 1: you would see during this time period. I see. So

628
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: in these uh, these sort of dormant periods that we

629
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: were talking about in that that push and pull uh

630
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:25,280
Speaker 1: uh pattern in the last episode, Like in this example,

631
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: it's not that tea really went away or that people

632
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: stopped drinking tea, but just that it became less significant

633
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 1: as a as a political and social elite signifier. Yeah. Yeah,

634
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 1: And you know, I bet we can compare this in

635
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: a limited sense to to various trends. You know, you'll have,

636
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 1: say a particular style of cocktail, and this is would

637
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 1: deal with a much shorter period of time. But like

638
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 1: a particular cocktail comes out, it's exciting, but then it

639
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 1: just becomes another cocktail, and and and the attention given

640
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: to it, uh, you know, definitely goes down the the

641
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 1: Your average experience of this cocktail is maybe a bit

642
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 1: mediocre until such time as someone brings it back and

643
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: starts pushing the boundaries again and figuring out, like what

644
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 1: works about this cocktail, what can I improve upon, what

645
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 1: new twist can I do to it? And in what

646
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 1: ways can I go back to the original version of

647
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,839
Speaker 1: this cocktail? That sort of thing. So but but either way,

648
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 1: during the Mongol rule, I think we can generalize and

649
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 1: say that tea culture had stagnated a bit. Nobody seemed

650
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 1: to have been advancing tea so much or pushing the

651
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 1: boundaries of tea. But then you have the establishment of

652
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 1: the Ming dynasty in thirteen sixty eight, and it's in

653
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: this dynasty we see yet another revival of tea. And

654
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 1: it's not to say that it's as simple as the

655
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 1: Ming dynasty simply announcing hey te's back on the menu,

656
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: because again it was never off the menu. Uh And,

657
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: in fact, according to weighing in uh tea and Chinese culture,

658
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 1: the tea loving scholarly class they were somewhat cracked down

659
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,240
Speaker 1: on during this Initially during this period, as we're various

660
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: other perceived rats um as the Ming solidified their rule.

661
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,800
Speaker 1: Though interestingly enough, one of the founding hung Wu Emperor's

662
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 1: sons became a key scholar and proponent of tea during

663
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 1: this time. This was an individual by the name of

664
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,839
Speaker 1: Zoo Kwon, and he wrote a manual on t and

665
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 1: much of the Ming tea ceremony culture to follow would

666
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 1: be based on the ideas presented in this manual, um

667
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 1: kea as this ritualized cleanser of the soul. So on

668
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: one hand, yes, you have imperial folks pushing tea again,

669
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,240
Speaker 1: accepting tea, you can get kind of that that trickled

670
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 1: down attraction to the beverage again. But it's also during

671
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 1: this period that we interphase three of tea, in which

672
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 1: uh tea has picked, withered, dried, rolled, and oxidized. There's

673
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 1: the result is dried, loose leaf tea that can then

674
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 1: be steeped for a set number of minutes to create

675
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 1: a smooth and rich beverage. Um. It was easier to

676
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: process this way, as Laura C. Martin points out in

677
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 1: History of Tea, and it better enables the incorporation of

678
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: dried fruits and spices as well as flowers. All these

679
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 1: were ingredients that the Chinese tea enthusiasts during this day

680
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 1: and tea masters definitely explored, and you see this a

681
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: lot in tea today as well. Also during this time,

682
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 1: the home will Emperor himself proclaims that only this new

683
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: method of loose leaf tea is going to be acceptable

684
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 1: as tribute. Uh so it t tributes made to to

685
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: the emperor and his household. They have to be this

686
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 1: new phase three t The scholarly class apparently held out

687
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 1: a little bit longer, sticking to their older traditions, traditions

688
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 1: again that they had they had stuck to through foreign rule.

689
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: But even they eventually realize, hey, oolong tea is really

690
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 1: good and they start drinking new long tea instead. Okay,

691
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 1: so they've got the larger process that includes oxidation like

692
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 1: we talked about last time. But am I correct that

693
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 1: too long? That's a medium level oxidation tea. Right, it's

694
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,839
Speaker 1: not as oxidazed as like black tea, but it's more

695
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 1: than green tea. Yeah, so I didn't read a whole

696
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 1: lot on Oolong or Woolong tea. But but perhaps there

697
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 1: was kind of like a meeting of halfway there where

698
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, but this one's just a little bit oxidized,

699
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 1: you know. Now new types of tea also means okay,

700
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 1: we have we we have new methods of brewing it,

701
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,919
Speaker 1: so we need new tea paraphernalia. And so it's during

702
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 1: this time to come back to the teapot that that

703
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 1: historians think that the true teapot was possibly born. Now.

704
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: Prior to this one would use open pans and wide

705
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 1: mouth bowls to brew your tea in. But they discovered

706
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:34,320
Speaker 1: now that okay, if you have a small covered container,

707
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,399
Speaker 1: this is going to bring out more flavor. But it's

708
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: at the same time, it's thought that the invention of

709
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,879
Speaker 1: the teapot was largely more of a repurposing of pre

710
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 1: existing wine ewers and and then adapting the design for

711
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 1: tea um So, for instance, the handle being placed on

712
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 1: the side of the teapot as opposed to on top

713
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 1: of the teapot for easier access, though of course we

714
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 1: still have a lot of teapots today we have to

715
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: handle on top that kind of folds the side. Also

716
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 1: smaller pots, because while it might make sense to have

717
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:05,840
Speaker 1: a larger pot that you have filled with wine to

718
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 1: distribute at a party or something, if you're making tea

719
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 1: in it, you don't want to make so much tea

720
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,760
Speaker 1: in the pot that everything gets oversteeped. Because you oversteep

721
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 1: your tea, it's going to take on a bitter and

722
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: undesirable flavor. Um. I imagine many of you out there

723
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: have encountered this before. Perhaps you get a pot of

724
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: tea at a restaurant and there are not enough of

725
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:26,840
Speaker 1: you drinking it, or you're drinking it at such a

726
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 1: slow pace that by the end it's pretty strong and

727
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: maybe a bit bitter. Sorry, this got me thinking about,

728
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 1: with the invention of the teapot, if there are any

729
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 1: older like of these tea poems, if any of them

730
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:41,280
Speaker 1: mentioned the dreaded dribbling like as the teapot effect reference

731
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 1: that far back. I wonder when the first person to

732
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 1: notice it in writing was, Oh, this is a great question.

733
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:49,439
Speaker 1: We have to come back to this because I bet

734
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 1: there's an answer, because these these texts that were coming

735
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 1: out on tea culture were so exhaustive about all the

736
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,439
Speaker 1: dudes and don't there has to be something in there

737
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,359
Speaker 1: about the I'm surely forbidden don't of dribbling your tea

738
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 1: during a high class tea service. Like if it doesn't

739
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,320
Speaker 1: like cheerly it exists in the in in in Chinese

740
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 1: and or Japanese literature. Yeah, had the instruction must be

741
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:16,359
Speaker 1: to poor with confidence. Yes, Now there are other advancements

742
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 1: here too. For example, light colored porcelain ceramics became all

743
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 1: the rage as they allowed you to show off the

744
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 1: natural color of a particular tea better. Blue underglazes were

745
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:29,320
Speaker 1: also quite popular. And there's also a special earthenware teapot

746
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:33,360
Speaker 1: known as a using that was quite popular as well.

747
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 1: This was I think it it basically means like purple earthenware,

748
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 1: but it wasn't necessarily purple. But it was an earthenware

749
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 1: teapot that was essentially seasoned by the tea. And they

750
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 1: could also be quite beautiful. But there are some mentions

751
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 1: in the the old writings about tea that like, oh,

752
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 1: we have a nice tea here, but you're serving it

753
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 1: out of the wrong pot. You need a properly seasoned pot,

754
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 1: otherwise it's just not gonna taste from it. Now, we

755
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,839
Speaker 1: mentioned oolong tea already, but obviously this is the time

756
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 1: during which black tea is discovered. You know that we

757
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 1: could realize that we can have this, this this highly

758
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 1: oxidized black or red tea as it's generally referred to

759
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:14,360
Speaker 1: in China, and as Mary lou and Robert J. Heyest

760
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 1: discussed in the Story of Tea, a Cultural History and

761
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 1: drinking guide we came out in two thousand and seven.

762
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 1: The discovery of black tea oxidation as a process was

763
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 1: originally thought only suitable for barbarians and foreigners. Well, it

764
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,240
Speaker 1: makes me wonder, as I'm sure you know many UH

765
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:35,280
Speaker 1: food inventions have an origin like this. Was this discovered

766
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: by accident? Was it like the tea? The tea leaves

767
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 1: got bruised up and smashed and then left around for

768
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 1: a while, and they turned dark and and all that

769
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 1: is it ruined? Oh No, turns out it actually tastes great.

770
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 1: You know. I think I ran across the story or

771
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,279
Speaker 1: two to that effect, But then I couldn't rEFInd the

772
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 1: story when I was finalizing my notes here, but yeah,

773
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 1: I feel like there was at least one story about

774
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 1: like some discarded tea ship sense that an army came

775
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 1: across or something to that effect. Um. But but the

776
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 1: other interesting thing about this is that, like the resulting

777
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,800
Speaker 1: tea would simply keep longer and could therefore be shipped further,

778
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,879
Speaker 1: both by land and by sea. And so the brick

779
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 1: tea that started reaching Mongolia and Tibet that would be

780
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 1: black brick tea. Meanwhile, green tea bricks, uh, those more

781
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 1: easily suffered from overheating from freezing and they and it

782
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 1: often developed mold in damp environments. So yeah, we get

783
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: into the situation where the farther out you're sending your tea,

784
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:37,399
Speaker 1: the more it makes sense for it to be black tea.

785
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 1: And perhaps early on you're just like, well, yeah, send

786
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 1: that black stuff out of here. That's that's going to Mongolia,

787
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 1: that's going to Tibet. But then of course over time

788
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: it catches on, people start experimenting with it, and you

789
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,839
Speaker 1: get so many splendid black teas as well. But at

790
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 1: the same time, black tea of course becomes the tea

791
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 1: to catch on in the Western world. And catch on

792
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 1: by storm. Uh. There there's a good great deal of

793
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 1: of Martin's a History of Tea that of course just

794
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 1: deals with this, like how te reaches uh Europe and

795
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: how it I mean, because it's so crazy to think

796
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,839
Speaker 1: about this as well, like modern Britain and not even

797
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 1: modern but historically Britain and tea so inseparable. Um, like

798
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: it is held up as this thoroughly British thing, but

799
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 1: of course it is entirely an import one interesting thing.

800
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 1: This is something we've we've we've discussed on an older

801
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 1: episode of the show. But like thinking again about black

802
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: tea being considered this thoroughly British thing and yet at

803
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 1: the same time there seems to have been at least

804
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 1: a mild panic in Britain in the nineteenth century about

805
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:42,360
Speaker 1: green tea making people hallucinate unlike proper black tea. Of course,

806
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 1: it's almost like people don't realize they come from the

807
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 1: same plant. Yeah, like you're talking about the same botanical

808
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 1: origin here. They're both key but yeah, black tea is

809
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 1: h is British, but green tea is something to mistrust

810
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:02,800
Speaker 1: and again interious foreign substance that may have the devil

811
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 1: inside it. Yeah, and there's a Again, there's an older

812
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 1: episode of the show about this, But the scenarios seemed

813
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 1: to have basically involved three factors. Mistrust of a tea

814
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 1: scene as foreign or unusual, and I think this was

815
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 1: also backed up by a popular ghost story that was

816
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 1: written in the time during this time period about the

817
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: dangers of green tea, also possible contaminants of the tea.

818
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:29,320
Speaker 1: And also there were some uh, sort of bad actors

819
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 1: and the tea market here who thought, well, we need

820
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 1: to make this color more exciting for Western customers, and

821
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 1: so they were throwing in some perhaps um less than

822
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 1: healthy substances to try to enhance the coloration of the

823
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 1: green tea. Oh. This may be a completely spurious connection,

824
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 1: but it also makes me think of the English association

825
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 1: between the color green and like the jealousy of the fairies.

826
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you know, I'm I don't recall there if

827
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,399
Speaker 1: anybody called out that connection, but I use we see

828
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 1: that they're being this sort of color theory, uh and

829
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 1: color a version already present in a given culture, and

830
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 1: then you have these other that could potentially enhance these

831
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 1: other reasons that we're seeing at the time to be

832
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 1: suspicious of green tea. Yeah, like a green dress invites curses,

833
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,919
Speaker 1: what would a green beverage do? Yeah. But the other

834
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 1: thing worth keeping in mind too is that there is

835
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 1: an actual possible link between caffeine and hallucination. Uh. And

836
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 1: this link is not all that shocking when you consider

837
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 1: the relationships between anxiety stimulants and the mind's just natural

838
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: potential for hallucinations for various reasons. Yeah. But would there

839
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 1: be more caffeine and the green teeth than the black tea?

840
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 1: I thought it was usually the other way around. Um. Yes,

841
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 1: But then also a lot of that comes down to

842
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 1: how long you're steeping something, and you know, how how

843
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 1: often you're consuming it. I guess, um, like if you're

844
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 1: having enough green tea during the course of a day.

845
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 1: I mean. The other part of it is that that

846
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 1: an individual's substability to caffeine is going to vary from

847
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 1: person to person. Um. But I guess one way to

848
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 1: look at it is, Yeah, if caffeine potentially enhance his stress,

849
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 1: then this could cause the body to release more cortisol.

850
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:17,360
Speaker 1: And another explanation that I remember from that episode was

851
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 1: that people who use caffeine a lot, say three or

852
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,360
Speaker 1: more cups of coffee per day are simply more prone

853
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 1: to mental health associations that cause hallucinations. So you know,

854
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 1: they're various various ways to tease it apart, there's nothing

855
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:34,319
Speaker 1: special about green tea itself, unless it is, of course,

856
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 1: has some sort of horrible substance added to it potentially, uh,

857
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 1: to make it more hallucinogenic. But yeah, it's just kind

858
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 1: of interesting in terms of the britishness or foreign nature

859
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 1: of tea has perceived in England in the nineteenth century. Alright,

860
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 1: one final area. We again, We're not gonna follow tea

861
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 1: all around the world and cover all the various variations

862
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:07,239
Speaker 1: and customs on this show, but I think it is

863
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: important to at least touch on Japanese tea culture in

864
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 1: history a bit as well, because uh, like, knowing when

865
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 1: and how tea reaches Japan is also important because the

866
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 1: because Japanese culture has contributed so much to our global

867
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 1: understanding and appreciation of tea. In fact, a number of

868
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 1: the teas that I drink our Chinese teas. But I

869
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: did make sure that I was drinking a Japanese tea

870
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 1: when I was working on this section of the notes. Oh,

871
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,359
Speaker 1: which one is that is a delightful Karagani tea, which

872
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:37,280
Speaker 1: is a green tea. This one's made I think mostly

873
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 1: from stems, and like a lot of green teas, you

874
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 1: have to be You can't just go Willie Nillion there

875
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 1: and start steeping it at any temperature and for any

876
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 1: amount of time. It's not one of the kind of

877
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:49,279
Speaker 1: slot I like a good sloppy tea that I can

878
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:52,359
Speaker 1: accidentally forget about and come back two and it's it's

879
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:53,759
Speaker 1: no worse for a wear. This is when you have

880
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 1: to be precise with But if you if you just

881
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:59,800
Speaker 1: give it the appropriate amount of time, at the appropriate temperature,

882
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 1: it's thoroughly delightful, very smooth, green tea. So tea culture,

883
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 1: as I was reading in most of my main source

884
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 1: of this was Martin, but tea culture was originally introduced

885
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:15,319
Speaker 1: into Japan via Buddhism during the reign of Prince of Shautaku,

886
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:19,359
Speaker 1: who lived five seventy four through six. This is a

887
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 1: semi legendary figure, though there's nothing to legendary about the

888
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:26,239
Speaker 1: basic premise here. Uh So, this is not a story

889
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 1: that involves the machinations of gods or supernatural deities. Basically,

890
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:35,200
Speaker 1: you had scholars traveling to China during this time studying

891
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 1: Buddhism and in the process also learning to drink and

892
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 1: cultivate tea. Now, this is definitely the Phase one era

893
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 1: of tea at this point, So there's the there's that

894
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: that level of T technology that they have. This is

895
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 1: the two level of T technology that they're bringing back

896
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:54,879
Speaker 1: with them. Phase one would have been the brick form. Yeah,

897
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: the brick form that did not have as enhanced flavor

898
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:01,720
Speaker 1: profile as most of the teas we think of today. Okay,

899
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 1: and it was a luxury item at first, mostly imported,

900
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:07,399
Speaker 1: but it was during the reign of Emperor Shomu, who

901
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 1: lived UH seven oh one through seven fifties six uh

902
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:14,319
Speaker 1: it was he helped popularize it more by serving it

903
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 1: to monks, particularly. There's a story about him serving it

904
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:20,360
Speaker 1: to monks during this day long reading of Buddhist scriptures

905
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 1: and they're like, what is this and he's like, drinking

906
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 1: It's gonna enhance everything you're doing today, trust me, And supposedly,

907
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:29,760
Speaker 1: um they end up embracing it up until the ninth

908
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 1: century when Sino Japanese relations strained somewhat. There is a

909
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:37,400
Speaker 1: lot of cultural transference there with tea customs and practices

910
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:40,319
Speaker 1: entering into Japan from China, much of it tied to

911
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 1: Buddhist practices and the tastes of the Imperial court at

912
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 1: that time. In the ninth century, however, diplomatic ties between

913
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 1: the country's dried up and tea culture in Japan didn't

914
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 1: really progress for a good three centuries. Its popularity decrease

915
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:57,879
Speaker 1: and its use was then limited mostly to monasteries, which

916
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 1: is interesting because all this kind of mirrors what we

917
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 1: saw during Mongol rule in China. But then during the

918
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 1: twelfth century, relations between Japan and China improved, and it's

919
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:11,280
Speaker 1: during this period that the Monk as I introduced both

920
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:16,280
Speaker 1: the Rinzai Zen Buddhism practice as well as whipped tea

921
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:20,359
Speaker 1: to Japan. So this is phase two once more with

922
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,400
Speaker 1: the with a si here he's advocating tea as a

923
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 1: key tool for Zen Buddhist practitioners as well as a

924
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: quote divine remedy and supreme gift of heaven. Uh Martin

925
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 1: writes that a side proclaimed tea as the cure for

926
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 1: loss of appetite, illness is caused by poor drinking water, paralysis, boils,

927
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 1: and what we would come to know of as a

928
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:46,400
Speaker 1: as a thyamine deficiency. He saw Tea drinking is something

929
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,439
Speaker 1: that benefited each organ in a different way, as well

930
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 1: as the spiritual aspects of a person as well. Just

931
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 1: so that's everywhere it could go to leak into all

932
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:58,279
Speaker 1: your organs and into your spiritual structures, and it's just

933
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:01,439
Speaker 1: gonna cleanse everything out and make every better. Tea is great,

934
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 1: But I love these different moments in history where like

935
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 1: somebody discovers tea and then they're like, it does everything,

936
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 1: and they you know, they really get on the tea terrain. Yeah.

937
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 1: I do like that. Again, it comes back to something

938
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 1: we talked about in the in the last episode about

939
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 1: tea being healthier than just normal drinking water that hasn't

940
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 1: been brought up to the boiling point. Yeah. So, initially

941
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 1: tea was really popular monasteries and among the ruling class,

942
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 1: but then it spread to pretty much everyone. It also

943
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:31,600
Speaker 1: became highly ritualized during this time. At the time of

944
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:34,400
Speaker 1: the samurai, for example, it became part of the bushido code.

945
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:36,800
Speaker 1: So if you were a member of the elite warrior

946
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 1: class in Japan, you were yeah, you're expected to be

947
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:42,719
Speaker 1: able to kill people with your sword, but you were

948
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:46,799
Speaker 1: expected to apply yourself to say poetry and tea customs

949
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 1: when you were not fighting or training to fight. By

950
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:53,920
Speaker 1: the mid fourteenth century, tea houses were a popular secular

951
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 1: hangout as well, and it seems to have taken on

952
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,480
Speaker 1: a not only a secular air, but kind of a

953
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 1: boisterous quality as well. They're apparently a number of tales

954
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 1: of tea drinking exploits. Uh. Some of these exploits were

955
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 1: tied to just drinking a whole lot of tea their

956
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:12,280
Speaker 1: accounts of like fifty cups a hundred cups. Though I'm

957
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 1: I don't think this is necessarily for an individual, but

958
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:18,320
Speaker 1: maybe more for like a group or a table, okay,

959
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 1: because I mean warning like you can't actually get too

960
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 1: much caffeine and be careful there. Yeah yeah, yeah, don't

961
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:26,600
Speaker 1: do not try and drink fifty cups. But I think

962
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 1: this would be like a party, like a large group

963
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 1: and they're just drinking a lot of tea and they're

964
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 1: keeping track about many they were going through. It could

965
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:34,600
Speaker 1: be wrong, but I think that's the case. They were

966
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 1: also more refined um tea drinking exploits tied to contests

967
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 1: that would take place to see if you could identify

968
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 1: a tea by the taste or say taste of tea

969
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 1: and determine what region it's from. That sort of thing,

970
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 1: and the tea service during this time was also formalized

971
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:52,719
Speaker 1: as a part of politics. So really it's like in

972
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:56,760
Speaker 1: every level of the socioeconomic structure t ends up finding

973
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 1: a place. Uh T culture would come to impact very

974
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 1: levels of design as well, from the physical instruments of

975
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:07,239
Speaker 1: tea brewing of course in Japan, but also um this

976
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 1: would end up being tied into the the architecture of

977
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 1: tea huts that were specially designed to like blend into

978
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:15,359
Speaker 1: the natural environment and be part of this sort of

979
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 1: like nature based understanding of tea and tea drinking. Speaking

980
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 1: of pouring with confidence to avoid the tea pot effect

981
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 1: that I mentioned earlier, I've watched some video of Japanese

982
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:31,480
Speaker 1: tea masters from today at work, UH and man I

983
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:36,400
Speaker 1: really notice a a pouring with confidence kind of ethic

984
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 1: to them, Like it's it's interesting to watch their actions

985
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:42,480
Speaker 1: because uh in the ones I've seen, they are of

986
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:45,399
Speaker 1: course very precise with their movements, so it's not it's

987
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 1: the opposite of sloppy, but it is also very like

988
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 1: forceful and deliberate, confident pouring. It is not uh not delicate,

989
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:57,759
Speaker 1: little little anything that would result in dribbling. Yeah. Like

990
00:54:57,800 --> 00:54:59,879
Speaker 1: I say, I know that some of these tea master

991
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:03,560
Speaker 1: is in their works have to have to tackle, uh

992
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 1: the avoidance of dribbling and how you avoid dribbling in

993
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:09,359
Speaker 1: these various tea ceremonies. You know, I don't know about you, Joe,

994
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:11,319
Speaker 1: but another this is something that comes up for me

995
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 1: and I know was just surely avoided by by experts

996
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:17,240
Speaker 1: in the field, But in the re steeping of tea bags,

997
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 1: one error that that we have to keep looking out

998
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:22,720
Speaker 1: for in my house is you you have an already

999
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:25,400
Speaker 1: wet tea bag and you're going to do your second

1000
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:27,680
Speaker 1: or third steep, you put it in there, you have

1001
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:30,320
Speaker 1: some new hot water added. If the tea bag is

1002
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 1: kind of partially hanging over the edge of the of

1003
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:36,480
Speaker 1: the the tea cup or the mug, then you'll have

1004
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 1: this kind of wicking effect where the water comes up

1005
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:41,880
Speaker 1: through the tea bag and then gets all over the countertop.

1006
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:43,959
Speaker 1: If you ever had this occurtain, yeah, I I didn't

1007
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:47,319
Speaker 1: know what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, So another great

1008
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 1: way to make a big mess with tea different kind

1009
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:54,759
Speaker 1: of capillary action, I would guess, yeah, yeah, yeah, capillary

1010
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:58,719
Speaker 1: action sounds it sounds like a better explanation, but but yeah,

1011
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:02,879
Speaker 1: it do make a mess. Well, I've enjoyed this tea journey, Rob, Yeah.

1012
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:05,640
Speaker 1: Like I said, this was not an attempt to provide

1013
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 1: an exhaustive and all inclusive understanding of tea, but hopefully

1014
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 1: sort of drive home like the basic evolution of tea

1015
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:16,400
Speaker 1: and and where a lot of the most important movements

1016
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:19,719
Speaker 1: and tea were taking place, because again, we have such

1017
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,239
Speaker 1: a rich tea global culture out there to appreciate. Now,

1018
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:26,040
Speaker 1: we didn't even get into like all the various salted

1019
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:29,799
Speaker 1: and buttered tea traditions. And again we're already at this point.

1020
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:31,319
Speaker 1: I don't think we've gotten to share any of these

1021
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:33,279
Speaker 1: in listening mail yet, but we're already hearing from some

1022
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:36,359
Speaker 1: folks about some of their favorite ways to prepare tea,

1023
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:40,440
Speaker 1: things that are either personally or culturally important to them. Uh.

1024
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:42,319
Speaker 1: So we would love to hear from everyone out there.

1025
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:45,799
Speaker 1: If there's a particular tea you love, let us know.

1026
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:49,319
Speaker 1: For my own part and doing this recording especially, I

1027
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:52,240
Speaker 1: have a bit of a sore throat and a cold

1028
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:56,719
Speaker 1: cough going on, and I depended heavily on a poert

1029
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:00,680
Speaker 1: called Evil Snake King in nor only. I just take

1030
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:02,799
Speaker 1: it straight, but for this I added a lot of

1031
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:05,799
Speaker 1: honey to it. So normally I don't put anything into

1032
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:07,879
Speaker 1: the teeth that I drink, but man, if my throat

1033
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:10,800
Speaker 1: is a little bit sore, I can add some some honey,

1034
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 1: maybe even some limon to that and it'll really get

1035
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 1: me through. Well, May the Evil Snake King breathe all

1036
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:22,360
Speaker 1: his curses into whatever whatever microbe is infecting your throat

1037
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:25,480
Speaker 1: or virus, blast them on out of there. Yeah. Plus,

1038
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 1: I just bought this piece of driftwood, uh, just just arrived.

1039
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 1: It's supposed to have a healing properties if you Yeah,

1040
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:35,240
Speaker 1: I have to swallow it and strap it to my neck.

1041
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:39,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be good. Great, all right, so yeah right in.

1042
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from everyone out there about tea

1043
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 1: and tea culture in your life. If you have, perhaps

1044
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 1: you have some answers to our questions about the tea

1045
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:52,680
Speaker 1: dribbling uh advice from the tea masters of old uh.

1046
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:54,840
Speaker 1: In the In the meantime, check out other episodes of

1047
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind. Our core episodes come out

1048
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 1: on Tuesdays and Thursdays and the Stuff to Blow Your

1049
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:01,520
Speaker 1: Mind podcast feed um days we do those listener mail episodes.

1050
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 1: On Wednesdays we do a short form artifact or monster fact,

1051
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 1: and on Friday's we satisfied most serious concerns and just

1052
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:09,720
Speaker 1: talk about a strange film. Huge thanks to our audio

1053
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:12,360
Speaker 1: producer J. J. Pauseway. If you would like to get

1054
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:14,680
Speaker 1: in touch with us with feedback on this episode or

1055
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:16,960
Speaker 1: any other, to suggest a topic for the future, or

1056
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 1: just to say hello, you can email us at contact

1057
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 1: at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to

1058
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For

1059
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:35,200
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1060
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:50,720
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