WEBVTT - Breaking Her Silence | Jenifer's Story 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:04.360 This podcast discusses sexual assault. Please take care while listening. 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:10.080 I think we have to make sure people are supported 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:14.440 when they come forward. Lots of times people want to 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:18.600 come forward, but they're scared this person has groomed them. 0:00:18.880 --> 0:00:21.360 You know, I'm the teacher. I do this, I got 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:23.799 this award. You know, I've been here for so long. 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:27.280 These people know me, so it's very hard for people 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:31.840 to come forward to begin with. Then the lawyers on 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:34.479 the defense side, they're going to ostracize them big time. 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:36.280 They're going to call them a slept they're going to 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:37.920 call them a whod They're going to call them everything 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:41.080 under the book to embarrass them, and then that keeps 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:44.279 other people from coming forward. We really have to do 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:45.120 a better job. 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:58.280 That was Cobb County District Attorney Flynn Brody Jr. I'm 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:07.039 Andre Gunning and this is Betrayal, Episode three, breaking her silence. 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:15.000 After Spence was put behind bars, he would often write Jennifer. 0:01:15.600 --> 0:01:17.760 Here's an excerpt from a letter he sent after a 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:21.319 meeting with his attorney, Brian Hobbs. It offers insight on 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:24.440 how he viewed his relationship with the sexual assault victim. 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:28.039 Most of what she told the police was fairly accurate, 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:33.120 but her descriptions were sometimes way off. Brian says there 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:36.440 is great danger in putting much back on her because 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:39.520 it will take away my position of being remorseful, taking 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:44.200 responsibility for my actions, and admitting wrongdoing. My question to 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:47.920 Brian was, how do we lessen her half truths to 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:50.680 not make me look like such a monster or the 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:54.560 only instigator. Clearly I wasn't. But we've come back around 0:01:54.600 --> 0:01:57.240 to the quote doesn't matter issue. 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:01.440 My producing partner, Carrie Hartman, started emailing and calling women 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:04.320 that Spencer had pursued while he was married to Jennifer. 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:10.280 Many refused to even acknowledge us, but others wanted to talk. 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:15.800 Hey Dre, Hey Jen. 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:18.919 So I'm glad we're connecting this morning because I do 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:19.920 have some news for you. 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:20.880 Okay. 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:24.520 So we did reach out to the sexual assault victim's attorney, 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:30.280 her civil attorney really, yeah, and the victim she actually 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:34.960 filed a case in twenty nineteen against three school administrators. 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:35.800 Okay. 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:39.960 Actually, Carrie is the one who spoke to him directly. Carrie, 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:40.880 do you want to fill us in? 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:41.760 Yeah? 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:47.959 So the attorney's name is Mike Rafie. He's in Atlanta. Actually, 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:49.720 we ended up talking for almost an hour. 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:52.600 Oh okay, So I don't. 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:55.400 Know if you're aware exactly when the assault started. But 0:02:55.639 --> 0:02:58.400 she was fifteen and she was a sophomore at school. 0:02:58.760 --> 0:02:59.120 Okay. 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:02.720 Now she's a twenty one year old college student. She's 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:06.560 a young woman, she has agency. Yeah, she wants an 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:07.560 opportunity to. 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:08.440 Tell her story. 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:11.400 Okay, but before going on. 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:15.200 The record, she would like to have a private. 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:17.679 Moment with you, one on one. 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:19.919 She wants to meet in person. 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:21.920 Yeah, oh my god. 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:30.240 I have not wanted to ever bother her in any 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:34.720 way because she's the victim in all of this. 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:36.360 You both are. 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:41.080 You both are listen. If she's willing that, that's huge, 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:47.080 that's everything. Yeah, I mean, I'm scared shitless, but I'm 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:52.760 searching for all the missing puzzle pieces to figure out 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:56.920 who this person is that I married. And you know, 0:03:57.200 --> 0:03:58.560 in turn. 0:03:58.200 --> 0:03:58.680 If. 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:04.400 It helps her in some way, I'll do whatever I can. 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:09.160 Jennifer was scared shitless. We talked to her right before. 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:13.280 They're one on one. Two very rave women who never 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:16.680 expected to meet just sat in a restaurant and listened 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:20.960 to each other, and then it went on the record. 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:27.280 Thank you very very much for doing this, and for 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:33.960 talking to me and for trusting me, and for sharing 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:40.480 your story because I think it's really really important. I'm shaking. 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:42.159 Yeah, me too. 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:46.520 We have met once in person. What was that a 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:47.000 week ago? 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:47.880 Yeah? It was. 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:51.280 I told you then that I'm just really sorry that 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:55.400 this happened. Why did you agree to talk with me? 0:04:56.600 --> 0:04:58.839 Well, I wanted to talk to you first in person 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:01.919 because I thought and I still think, it helped me, 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:04.960 and I hope it helped you with the healing process, 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:11.360 because us meeting is a sign of empowerment and it's 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:15.600 a chance for us to start moving forward in a 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:18.960 healthy way. This is also a chance for me to, 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:22.400 in a way, to defend myself to the public eye 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:26.200 with my own words. It's one thing to go through 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:29.279 the courts and have an attorney talk for you, but 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:33.680 it's also another to step out and speak for yourself. 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:36.240 So I'm just grateful that we're here now. 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:43.120 It was important that I see you for who you 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:47.440 were back then, which was a young girl. What were 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:49.080 you like in high school? 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:55.599 Oh? Okay, in high school, I was pretty shy. I 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:58.800 didn't have a lot of friends. I knew people, but 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:02.360 I never actually took the time to hang out with people. 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:08.400 So I was kind of lonely as a kid before 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:14.679 everything with Haron. I had one boyfriend. It was someone 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:17.040 I went to the dance with. You know, when you're 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:19.400 a kid and you just you like someone and you 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:23.320 hold their hand. It was very innocent. I do look 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:27.200 back on that because sometimes I missed that innocence. 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:30.640 I'm glad that you had that. 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:33.120 That was a nice memory to look back on. 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:38.640 Do you remember when you first met Spence when he 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:40.400 first became your teacher. 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:41.120 Yeah. 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:44.560 I took the video production class, I believe my sophomore 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:47.640 year and that was level one, and so I was 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:51.159 just basically starting out with video production. I knew nothing 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:55.280 about it, so that's how I met him. We mostly 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:58.559 got to know each other during times of the Drone 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:01.640 Club when he first gave out his number to the 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:05.440 club members. It was mostly about shooting videos with the 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:10.240 drone or editing, and then he would write me more 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:14.480 about just music or sometimes movies. 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:19.560 What was he like as a teacher when you first started. 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:24.200 With him, Very energetic, just very nice to be around. 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:27.720 At first. It was fun that class. I had a 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:31.800 lot to look forward to with learning about equipment and editing, 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:36.360 and he seemed very excited about his curriculum and motivated 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:40.600 to teach his students. You know, when you take classes 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:43.200 that are not academic in high school, it's a relief 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:47.280 because it gives you a chance to be creative. And 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:51.600 it was also that trust that you had in someone 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:55.720 who was also so motivated to be a mentor in 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:59.360 his students' lives. So I saw him at first as 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:02.720 someone I can trust. You know, if I ever felt 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:06.480 like I needed to, you know, talk to him about school, 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:08.960 I felt safe at first to do that. 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:12.880 Of course, you're going to trust that person. Yes, yeah, 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:15.160 And I think that might be what some people don't 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:21.760 understand about this is there's a grooming process. Do you 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:23.760 feel like that might have been your situation. 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:29.680 I think the students in general, those who were not 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:35.040 sexual abuse victims were, I want to stay groomed in 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:38.520 a way where he made sure that no one saw 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:43.199 him in that way. But me, as a sexual abuse victim, 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:47.199 I was groomed in a way where that trust was 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:51.800 implemented to violate boundaries over and over again. 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:55.880 The reason my ex husband's in prison is because you 0:08:55.960 --> 0:09:01.520 were brave enough to come forward and report something, and 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:07.040 so many times it doesn't get reported. 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:08.640 Yeah, it doesn't. 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:12.600 Unfortunately, when do you feel like that first boundary was 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:13.839 really crossed? 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:18.840 We were talking about shooting this video or like short 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:21.880 movie with the club, and he had texted me that 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:28.080 he had feelings for me. I remember feeling I don't know, 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:33.440 I guess shocked. It's an understatement. I just felt so. Yeah, 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:37.960 I guess shocked is the word. That was the Yeah, 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:41.559 that was the first time at least when the boundary 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:44.840 was crossed. And he told me that he wanted to 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:49.200 talk about it in person, and I agreed to because 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:52.520 I thought maybe we could talk about it and that 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:57.040 would be that. When I met him at school, classes 0:09:57.040 --> 0:10:00.640 were about to end around three. They didn't quite and yet, 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:04.320 so school hadn't ended yet. But he brought me back 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:06.680 to the control room and that's when he kissed me. 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:08.600 How did you respond. 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:12.360 It's kind of a blur. I'll be honest. It didn't 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:16.080 feel right. I guess I was just confused in a way, 0:10:16.520 --> 0:10:19.760 and I think maybe I could have just had a 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:24.280 say in it. I don't know, like I felt like 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:27.240 it was wrong in my heart, but when he kissed me, 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:31.040 he would reassure me and say, well, you know, it's 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:33.840 because I love you. This is why you know, this 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:37.760 is why this is okay, because we're meant to be together. 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:48.800 At the time, was it a shock or what went 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:49.560 through your mind? 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:56.000 It was a shock. What I remember feeling most was 0:10:56.040 --> 0:11:00.360 really confused. I think I was more confused with a 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:05.080 grown adult telling me that they had these feelings for 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:07.720 me that you see in movies, you know when someone 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:12.480 confesses their feelings, and as a kid, it's shocking when 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:15.040 someone tells you at the time that they love you 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:18.680 and they have these feelings for you that they don't 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:23.280 want to hide, and that you're special. It was a shock. 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:29.720 I remember him specifically saying that he had never felt 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:33.720 this way before with anyone, and that I was special 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:36.959 to him. That's how he made me feel. He made 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:40.800 me feel special and I could I could trust him 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:44.000 if I ever needed to talk to him about anything 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:45.840 or anything personal. 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:54.360 Sorry, this part is hard for me, but this is 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:59.160 what this journey is about. It's not easy, but getting 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:02.600 the clarity and the answers and filling in those blanks 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:07.800 that you don't know about help so much. And just 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:11.319 bear with me and I can hear it. I told 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:15.080 you this when we met. I do not judge you. 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:18.400 I do not hold you responsible. I am not mad 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:23.000 at you, none of those things. You know, how could 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:26.400 I be. You were the biggest victim in all of this, 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:31.440 and I know that, and I understand that. So it 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:34.760 sounds like there was some kind of I hate calling 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:38.320 it a relationship, but some kind of relationship established where 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:44.079 you guys talked more than just school stuff. If he 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:46.400 was developing these feelings for you. 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:51.840 I hate calling it a relationship too. And I was 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:56.160 really thinking about this because I was recently in court 0:12:56.440 --> 0:13:01.359 and the school said that this was a relationship, basically 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:06.760 placing the blame on me, that I was instigating this. 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:11.400 I understand what you mean when you say it. You know, 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:14.280 it's different from when you say it versus when someone's 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:17.680 placing the blame on a fifteen year old kid. But 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:24.160 he established with everyone a talking basis, if that makes sense, 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:27.440 Like he would give out his phone number to everyone, 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:30.520 and I think that was as a cover in a 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:32.719 way to make it look like it was normal for 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:35.400 him to talk to anyone over the phone. 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:38.080 As far as you know, is that normal for a 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:40.199 teacher to give out their cell phone number? 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:43.200 At the time, I thought it was normal But then 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:46.400 there was another teacher at CAL and I wasn't in 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:50.600 that club, but I overheard students and this teacher speaking 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:53.120 and they asked, well, you know, it'd be easier if 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:56.880 we just have each other's numbers, and I remember him 0:13:57.200 --> 0:14:00.200 strictly saying no, no, no, no no. You know that 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.679 I will never do that. And that's when it kind 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:05.920 of clicked for me that this wasn't normal. 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:12.000 So how did he justify doing this with a student? 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:15.120 The first thing he said to me was, I've never 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:17.840 done this with a student. I've never felt this way 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:23.480 about anyone. The constant violations of boundaries, you know, had 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:27.320 the excuse of, well, this is what boyfriends and girlfriends do. 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:32.320 It's because I love you that we're doing this. And 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:37.320 he used my faith against me. You know, it's really 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:38.920 a true form of manipulation. 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:41.760 How did he use your faith against you? 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:46.800 He would say that God brought us together, that we 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:50.240 were meant to be, that it was all a part 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:54.880 of a cosmic plan, and you know, as a fifteen 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:58.040 year old, I felt really special to him. 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:02.600 Did you ever talk about if it was wrong or not? 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:08.840 Maybe not even teacher student, but the age difference or 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:10.520 him being married. 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:14.840 I didn't think about him being married. I just thought 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:17.560 of him as, oh, it's coach hearing, because I only 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:20.960 saw him for the club and you know, for school, 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:24.560 and it was always just co charing to me, So 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:27.400 like his personal life, I didn't even really think of it. 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:31.880 You know. I expressed to him that I was a 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:36.080 virgin and I don't know if I was ready for anything, 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:40.520 And you know, it was always the same excuse. He 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:42.720 would tell me that it would be okay, that he 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:46.440 wouldn't hurt me, and that he loved me. That was 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:49.560 really the main excuse that he gave me because I 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:52.320 was hesitant in law as a kid, especially with the sex. 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:56.920 I wasn't ready at fifteen, I didn't really even think 0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:59.640 about sex. And then when it was happening with him, 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:03.120 I didn't want to think about sex because I felt 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:07.400 ashamed in a way. He trained me to be a 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:11.360 woman and I was still a kid, so I was 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:15.720 really confused. I just remember being really confused as a kid. 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:20.120 The only times I do remember vividly are the ones 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:26.000 that were forced, because they're so vivid. I always felt 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:28.240 like I had to do things I just didn't want 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:31.200 to do. But at that time, my feelings for him 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:35.000 were already growing, and he would just reassure me that 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:39.240 it was okay because he loved me. Even when there 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:42.880 were times when he forced himself on me, he'd say, 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:46.000 you know, I'm so sorry. You know I love you. 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:48.160 I'm so sorry. You know this will never happen again. 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:49.040 And I believed him. 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:55.240 Oh my god, Yeah, I didn't know that person, and 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:56.360 I'm so sorry. 0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:57.400 I know. 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:04.520 Why do you think he shows you to go after 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:05.520 and pray on? 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:10.400 I think he went after me because it was very obvious. 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:13.440 I was insecure. You know, I didn't have a lot 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:17.159 of friends, and I was sheltered. I didn't have anyone 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:18.560 to talk to. And I think he knew I was 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:21.760 a pretty really kid, and so he used that trust 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:23.000 that I had in him. 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:26.280 I've done a lot of research. I'm sure you have 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:30.960 as well. It's textbook grooming and predator behavior. 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:32.520 It is. 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:37.520 And I didn't see it, and I know some people 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:41.400 probably don't believe that, like there must have been signs. 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:46.919 I can tell you if there was any hint or sign, 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:50.960 I would have spoken up and done something about it. 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:56.720 How do you think he got away with all of this? 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:00.520 I don't think he just woke up one day decided 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:04.280 to do this. He was very calculated with how he 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:08.119 was with everyone, all the students he talked to, especially 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:11.920 the ones in drunk club. He was just very calculated 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:15.439 with every interaction he had with everyone. He put on 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:18.040 the face that needed to surface at that time with 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:21.919 that person, no matter if it was you or his kids. 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:25.879 For me, he was that person that he needed to 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:26.560 be at that time. 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:29.719 Yeah, I lived on the same roof with this person, 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:34.040 and I am embarrassed. 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:36.520 You shouldn't be. You didn't know. 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:41.920 I know, but you know, if you understand shame. 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:45.680 I do. I do, you shouldn't feel a shamed Yeah. 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:47.800 Did he ask you to keep it a secret? 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:52.560 Yeah, he specifically told me. He said, change my name 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:55.600 on your phone to just one of your friends. And 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:57.959 I had a really hard time with that. But I 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:00.840 listened to him and he would say, no one could 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:03.200 know about this or else, you know, he could be 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:05.560 with me. And that was the hardest part for me 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:09.320 because I was close with my parents and I'm so 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:13.119 close with them. It was just, you know, heavy forms 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:17.439 of manipulation, saying I love you, that we have to 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:21.480 preserve what we had, is what he'd say, and that's 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:24.679 how high school was. After sophomore year, I was just 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:29.720 completely confused, and I just felt the whole time angry 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:33.880 and so insecure, and I just remember walking through the hallway. 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:37.600 I wanted to scream it or just say it to someone, 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:40.000 and then I thought, who could I tell this to? 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:43.000 Who wouldn't judge me, you know, because I was so 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:46.040 scared that I would be judged by whoever I told. 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:50.800 I remember thinking I wish Heron wasn't Heron at that time, 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:53.480 because I trusted him so much. I felt like he 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:56.000 was that person I could go to for anything, and 0:19:56.080 --> 0:20:00.280 I felt so sad that I couldn't go to him 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:04.160 to talk about how this was happening to me from him, 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:05.280 If that makes sense. 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:09.800 Yeah, because I felt the same way. You know, here 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:14.360 my husband gets arrested right in front of me, and 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:18.560 that's my best friend, you know. Yeah, that's the person 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:22.680 that makes me feel safest in the world, and they 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:26.359 can't even be there for me because the damage was 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:28.080 done by him. 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:28.840 Yeah. 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:31.280 Did he talk about plans for the future. 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:35.359 He did. He would talk about that often, you know, 0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:38.160 he'd say, I really want to continue this when you 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:42.680 graduate and go to college and he'd say, I see 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:47.600 you as my confidant, my best friend. He'd say stuff 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:48.200 like that. 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:52.320 Did I ever come up? Did he ever talk about 0:20:52.680 --> 0:20:54.399 his wife leaving me? 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:57.439 So he didn't bring you up on his own. I 0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:02.560 brought you up because I remember seeing this picture of 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:06.159 you and him behind his desk and I didn't know 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:08.280 who that was. He said, oh, that's my wife, and 0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:11.760 I said, oh, okay. I think he could tell that 0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:14.800 I was shocked, and I was starting to feel really 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:18.359 uneasy about it. I remember feeling really sick to my 0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:22.240 stomach about it. He told me that you two were 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:27.040 planning on getting a divorce, and how his friends were 0:21:27.080 --> 0:21:31.120 on board with the divorce, and that I shouldn't feel 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:32.920 bad about it at all. 0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:36.960 Wow, that was so crazy. 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:41.560 Looking back, I don't know how someone could live with 0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:45.359 so many lies and grew to sleep at night knowing 0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:48.720 that you've manipulated everyone in your life. 0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:53.080 From the moment he woke up until the moment he 0:21:53.119 --> 0:22:03.320 fell asleep. Did you realize at the time that what 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:06.720 he was doing is illegal? 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:10.880 I wasn't sure about the laws when I was a kid. 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:14.440 I didn't really think about it. He just made sure 0:22:14.880 --> 0:22:17.920 in my head keep what we have, you know, keep 0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:21.080 this safe, because this is special. That's all I ever 0:22:21.119 --> 0:22:25.560 thought about. I never thought about it being illegal up until, 0:22:25.640 --> 0:22:27.440 you know, when I told my parents. 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:31.480 So talk to me about why you decided to tell 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:32.800 your parents. 0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:36.800 I planned on not telling them at all. I thought 0:22:36.800 --> 0:22:39.119 I'd take this to the grave. I didn't want to 0:22:39.160 --> 0:22:44.199 tell anyone. I had this health class and she was 0:22:44.280 --> 0:22:49.600 talking about STDs and I never thought about that when 0:22:49.640 --> 0:22:53.440 I was fifteen, sixteen, seventeen. I never thought about that 0:22:53.800 --> 0:22:56.120 until I took that class. And I remember her doing 0:22:56.160 --> 0:23:00.080 this demonstration. Everyone was lining up in the classroom and 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:03.000 it was something really simple, like just people like touching 0:23:03.000 --> 0:23:06.040 each other's shoulders in class, was showing like how it 0:23:06.080 --> 0:23:09.680 could spread so easily. I don't know, it just kind 0:23:09.680 --> 0:23:12.720 of it just clicked. I guess. I just remember being 0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:16.280 scared that maybe I had caught something. You know. I 0:23:16.359 --> 0:23:19.760 put all the stories he told me together. He was 0:23:20.480 --> 0:23:23.960 boasting about this one interaction he had with two women, 0:23:24.359 --> 0:23:27.159 and it just like all these things kind of popped 0:23:27.160 --> 0:23:29.359 in my head at that time, and I got and 0:23:29.720 --> 0:23:30.480 it just scared me. 0:23:31.119 --> 0:23:33.200 What was that story he had. 0:23:33.080 --> 0:23:36.320 Told me that he had a three way with two women. 0:23:37.119 --> 0:23:38.800 He would tell me things. 0:23:39.720 --> 0:23:43.200 Telling your parents that had to have been so hard. 0:23:44.000 --> 0:23:45.800 You know, when I did tell them, I felt like 0:23:45.840 --> 0:23:47.080 I immediately regretted it. 0:23:47.760 --> 0:23:48.400 Regretted. 0:23:49.320 --> 0:23:53.919 I felt responsible for what my parents went through. The 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:57.879 I unloaded this huge burden onto them. That's why I 0:23:57.880 --> 0:24:01.080 felt like I regretted that for a while. I never 0:24:01.320 --> 0:24:04.760 regretted going to the police, but I just regretted telling 0:24:04.800 --> 0:24:09.760 my parents. In my case, the police were really helpful 0:24:09.920 --> 0:24:12.720 and they did such an amazing job with the whole thing. 0:24:13.640 --> 0:24:17.320 They never made me feel any type of shame. 0:24:18.040 --> 0:24:22.720 Was there any relief when you did tell your parents? 0:24:22.920 --> 0:24:26.280 Yes, I did feel relief when I told my parents, 0:24:26.760 --> 0:24:30.560 although you know the healing process, you and I both 0:24:30.600 --> 0:24:34.600 know it's not a straightforward shot. Sometimes you relapse and 0:24:34.640 --> 0:24:37.840 you go back and forth, and sometimes, like at first, 0:24:37.920 --> 0:24:40.920