Speaker 1: This podcast discusses sexual assault. Please take care while listening.
Speaker 2: I think we have to make sure people are supported
Speaker 2: when they come forward. Lots of times people want to
Speaker 2: come forward, but they're scared this person has groomed them.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm the teacher. I do this, I got
Speaker 2: this award. You know, I've been here for so long.
Speaker 2: These people know me, so it's very hard for people
Speaker 2: to come forward to begin with. Then the lawyers on
Speaker 2: the defense side, they're going to ostracize them big time.
Speaker 2: They're going to call them a slept they're going to
Speaker 2: call them a whod They're going to call them everything
Speaker 2: under the book to embarrass them, and then that keeps
Speaker 2: other people from coming forward. We really have to do
Speaker 2: a better job.
Speaker 1: That was Cobb County District Attorney Flynn Brody Jr. I'm
Speaker 1: Andre Gunning and this is Betrayal, Episode three, breaking her silence.
Speaker 1: After Spence was put behind bars, he would often write Jennifer.
Speaker 1: Here's an excerpt from a letter he sent after a
Speaker 1: meeting with his attorney, Brian Hobbs. It offers insight on
Speaker 1: how he viewed his relationship with the sexual assault victim.
Speaker 3: Most of what she told the police was fairly accurate,
Speaker 3: but her descriptions were sometimes way off. Brian says there
Speaker 3: is great danger in putting much back on her because
Speaker 3: it will take away my position of being remorseful, taking
Speaker 3: responsibility for my actions, and admitting wrongdoing. My question to
Speaker 3: Brian was, how do we lessen her half truths to
Speaker 3: not make me look like such a monster or the
Speaker 3: only instigator. Clearly I wasn't. But we've come back around
Speaker 3: to the quote doesn't matter issue.
Speaker 1: My producing partner, Carrie Hartman, started emailing and calling women
Speaker 1: that Spencer had pursued while he was married to Jennifer.
Speaker 1: Many refused to even acknowledge us, but others wanted to talk.
Speaker 4: Hey Dre, Hey Jen.
Speaker 5: So I'm glad we're connecting this morning because I do
Speaker 5: have some news for you.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 5: So we did reach out to the sexual assault victim's attorney,
Speaker 5: her civil attorney really, yeah, and the victim she actually
Speaker 5: filed a case in twenty nineteen against three school administrators.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 5: Actually, Carrie is the one who spoke to him directly. Carrie,
Speaker 5: do you want to fill us in?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 7: So the attorney's name is Mike Rafie. He's in Atlanta. Actually,
Speaker 7: we ended up talking for almost an hour.
Speaker 4: Oh okay, So I don't.
Speaker 7: Know if you're aware exactly when the assault started. But
Speaker 7: she was fifteen and she was a sophomore at school.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 7: Now she's a twenty one year old college student. She's
Speaker 7: a young woman, she has agency. Yeah, she wants an
Speaker 7: opportunity to.
Speaker 6: Tell her story.
Speaker 4: Okay, but before going on.
Speaker 6: The record, she would like to have a private.
Speaker 7: Moment with you, one on one.
Speaker 4: She wants to meet in person.
Speaker 6: Yeah, oh my god.
Speaker 4: I have not wanted to ever bother her in any
Speaker 4: way because she's the victim in all of this.
Speaker 7: You both are.
Speaker 4: You both are listen. If she's willing that, that's huge,
Speaker 4: that's everything. Yeah, I mean, I'm scared shitless, but I'm
Speaker 4: searching for all the missing puzzle pieces to figure out
Speaker 4: who this person is that I married. And you know,
Speaker 4: in turn.
Speaker 7: If.
Speaker 4: It helps her in some way, I'll do whatever I can.
Speaker 1: Jennifer was scared shitless. We talked to her right before.
Speaker 1: They're one on one. Two very rave women who never
Speaker 1: expected to meet just sat in a restaurant and listened
Speaker 1: to each other, and then it went on the record.
Speaker 4: Thank you very very much for doing this, and for
Speaker 4: talking to me and for trusting me, and for sharing
Speaker 4: your story because I think it's really really important. I'm shaking.
Speaker 6: Yeah, me too.
Speaker 4: We have met once in person. What was that a
Speaker 4: week ago?
Speaker 6: Yeah? It was.
Speaker 4: I told you then that I'm just really sorry that
Speaker 4: this happened. Why did you agree to talk with me?
Speaker 6: Well, I wanted to talk to you first in person
Speaker 6: because I thought and I still think, it helped me,
Speaker 6: and I hope it helped you with the healing process,
Speaker 6: because us meeting is a sign of empowerment and it's
Speaker 6: a chance for us to start moving forward in a
Speaker 6: healthy way. This is also a chance for me to,
Speaker 6: in a way, to defend myself to the public eye
Speaker 6: with my own words. It's one thing to go through
Speaker 6: the courts and have an attorney talk for you, but
Speaker 6: it's also another to step out and speak for yourself.
Speaker 6: So I'm just grateful that we're here now.
Speaker 4: It was important that I see you for who you
Speaker 4: were back then, which was a young girl. What were
Speaker 4: you like in high school?
Speaker 6: Oh? Okay, in high school, I was pretty shy. I
Speaker 6: didn't have a lot of friends. I knew people, but
Speaker 6: I never actually took the time to hang out with people.
Speaker 6: So I was kind of lonely as a kid before
Speaker 6: everything with Haron. I had one boyfriend. It was someone
Speaker 6: I went to the dance with. You know, when you're
Speaker 6: a kid and you just you like someone and you
Speaker 6: hold their hand. It was very innocent. I do look
Speaker 6: back on that because sometimes I missed that innocence.
Speaker 4: I'm glad that you had that.
Speaker 6: That was a nice memory to look back on.
Speaker 4: Do you remember when you first met Spence when he
Speaker 4: first became your teacher.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 6: I took the video production class, I believe my sophomore
Speaker 6: year and that was level one, and so I was
Speaker 6: just basically starting out with video production. I knew nothing
Speaker 6: about it, so that's how I met him. We mostly
Speaker 6: got to know each other during times of the Drone
Speaker 6: Club when he first gave out his number to the
Speaker 6: club members. It was mostly about shooting videos with the
Speaker 6: drone or editing, and then he would write me more
Speaker 6: about just music or sometimes movies.
Speaker 4: What was he like as a teacher when you first started.
Speaker 6: With him, Very energetic, just very nice to be around.
Speaker 6: At first. It was fun that class. I had a
Speaker 6: lot to look forward to with learning about equipment and editing,
Speaker 6: and he seemed very excited about his curriculum and motivated
Speaker 6: to teach his students. You know, when you take classes
Speaker 6: that are not academic in high school, it's a relief
Speaker 6: because it gives you a chance to be creative. And
Speaker 6: it was also that trust that you had in someone
Speaker 6: who was also so motivated to be a mentor in
Speaker 6: his students' lives. So I saw him at first as
Speaker 6: someone I can trust. You know, if I ever felt
Speaker 6: like I needed to, you know, talk to him about school,
Speaker 6: I felt safe at first to do that.
Speaker 4: Of course, you're going to trust that person. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 4: And I think that might be what some people don't
Speaker 4: understand about this is there's a grooming process. Do you
Speaker 4: feel like that might have been your situation.
Speaker 6: I think the students in general, those who were not
Speaker 6: sexual abuse victims were, I want to stay groomed in
Speaker 6: a way where he made sure that no one saw
Speaker 6: him in that way. But me, as a sexual abuse victim,
Speaker 6: I was groomed in a way where that trust was
Speaker 6: implemented to violate boundaries over and over again.
Speaker 4: The reason my ex husband's in prison is because you
Speaker 4: were brave enough to come forward and report something, and
Speaker 4: so many times it doesn't get reported.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it doesn't.
Speaker 4: Unfortunately, when do you feel like that first boundary was
Speaker 4: really crossed?
Speaker 6: We were talking about shooting this video or like short
Speaker 6: movie with the club, and he had texted me that
Speaker 6: he had feelings for me. I remember feeling I don't know,
Speaker 6: I guess shocked. It's an understatement. I just felt so. Yeah,
Speaker 6: I guess shocked is the word. That was the Yeah,
Speaker 6: that was the first time at least when the boundary
Speaker 6: was crossed. And he told me that he wanted to
Speaker 6: talk about it in person, and I agreed to because
Speaker 6: I thought maybe we could talk about it and that
Speaker 6: would be that. When I met him at school, classes
Speaker 6: were about to end around three. They didn't quite and yet,
Speaker 6: so school hadn't ended yet. But he brought me back
Speaker 6: to the control room and that's when he kissed me.
Speaker 4: How did you respond.
Speaker 6: It's kind of a blur. I'll be honest. It didn't
Speaker 6: feel right. I guess I was just confused in a way,
Speaker 6: and I think maybe I could have just had a
Speaker 6: say in it. I don't know, like I felt like
Speaker 6: it was wrong in my heart, but when he kissed me,
Speaker 6: he would reassure me and say, well, you know, it's
Speaker 6: because I love you. This is why you know, this
Speaker 6: is why this is okay, because we're meant to be together.
Speaker 4: At the time, was it a shock or what went
Speaker 4: through your mind?
Speaker 6: It was a shock. What I remember feeling most was
Speaker 6: really confused. I think I was more confused with a
Speaker 6: grown adult telling me that they had these feelings for
Speaker 6: me that you see in movies, you know when someone
Speaker 6: confesses their feelings, and as a kid, it's shocking when
Speaker 6: someone tells you at the time that they love you
Speaker 6: and they have these feelings for you that they don't
Speaker 6: want to hide, and that you're special. It was a shock.
Speaker 6: I remember him specifically saying that he had never felt
Speaker 6: this way before with anyone, and that I was special
Speaker 6: to him. That's how he made me feel. He made
Speaker 6: me feel special and I could I could trust him
Speaker 6: if I ever needed to talk to him about anything
Speaker 6: or anything personal.
Speaker 4: Sorry, this part is hard for me, but this is
Speaker 4: what this journey is about. It's not easy, but getting
Speaker 4: the clarity and the answers and filling in those blanks
Speaker 4: that you don't know about help so much. And just
Speaker 4: bear with me and I can hear it. I told
Speaker 4: you this when we met. I do not judge you.
Speaker 4: I do not hold you responsible. I am not mad
Speaker 4: at you, none of those things. You know, how could
Speaker 4: I be. You were the biggest victim in all of this,
Speaker 4: and I know that, and I understand that. So it
Speaker 4: sounds like there was some kind of I hate calling
Speaker 4: it a relationship, but some kind of relationship established where
Speaker 4: you guys talked more than just school stuff. If he
Speaker 4: was developing these feelings for you.
Speaker 6: I hate calling it a relationship too. And I was
Speaker 6: really thinking about this because I was recently in court
Speaker 6: and the school said that this was a relationship, basically
Speaker 6: placing the blame on me, that I was instigating this.
Speaker 6: I understand what you mean when you say it. You know,
Speaker 6: it's different from when you say it versus when someone's
Speaker 6: placing the blame on a fifteen year old kid. But
Speaker 6: he established with everyone a talking basis, if that makes sense,
Speaker 6: Like he would give out his phone number to everyone,
Speaker 6: and I think that was as a cover in a
Speaker 6: way to make it look like it was normal for
Speaker 6: him to talk to anyone over the phone.
Speaker 4: As far as you know, is that normal for a
Speaker 4: teacher to give out their cell phone number?
Speaker 6: At the time, I thought it was normal But then
Speaker 6: there was another teacher at CAL and I wasn't in
Speaker 6: that club, but I overheard students and this teacher speaking
Speaker 6: and they asked, well, you know, it'd be easier if
Speaker 6: we just have each other's numbers, and I remember him
Speaker 6: strictly saying no, no, no, no no. You know that
Speaker 6: I will never do that. And that's when it kind
Speaker 6: of clicked for me that this wasn't normal.
Speaker 4: So how did he justify doing this with a student?
Speaker 6: The first thing he said to me was, I've never
Speaker 6: done this with a student. I've never felt this way
Speaker 6: about anyone. The constant violations of boundaries, you know, had
Speaker 6: the excuse of, well, this is what boyfriends and girlfriends do.
Speaker 6: It's because I love you that we're doing this. And
Speaker 6: he used my faith against me. You know, it's really
Speaker 6: a true form of manipulation.
Speaker 4: How did he use your faith against you?
Speaker 6: He would say that God brought us together, that we
Speaker 6: were meant to be, that it was all a part
Speaker 6: of a cosmic plan, and you know, as a fifteen
Speaker 6: year old, I felt really special to him.
Speaker 4: Did you ever talk about if it was wrong or not?
Speaker 4: Maybe not even teacher student, but the age difference or
Speaker 4: him being married.
Speaker 6: I didn't think about him being married. I just thought
Speaker 6: of him as, oh, it's coach hearing, because I only
Speaker 6: saw him for the club and you know, for school,
Speaker 6: and it was always just co charing to me, So
Speaker 6: like his personal life, I didn't even really think of it.
Speaker 6: You know. I expressed to him that I was a
Speaker 6: virgin and I don't know if I was ready for anything,
Speaker 6: And you know, it was always the same excuse. He
Speaker 6: would tell me that it would be okay, that he
Speaker 6: wouldn't hurt me, and that he loved me. That was
Speaker 6: really the main excuse that he gave me because I
Speaker 6: was hesitant in law as a kid, especially with the sex.
Speaker 6: I wasn't ready at fifteen, I didn't really even think
Speaker 6: about sex. And then when it was happening with him,
Speaker 6: I didn't want to think about sex because I felt
Speaker 6: ashamed in a way. He trained me to be a
Speaker 6: woman and I was still a kid, so I was
Speaker 6: really confused. I just remember being really confused as a kid.
Speaker 6: The only times I do remember vividly are the ones
Speaker 6: that were forced, because they're so vivid. I always felt
Speaker 6: like I had to do things I just didn't want
Speaker 6: to do. But at that time, my feelings for him
Speaker 6: were already growing, and he would just reassure me that
Speaker 6: it was okay because he loved me. Even when there
Speaker 6: were times when he forced himself on me, he'd say,
Speaker 6: you know, I'm so sorry. You know I love you.
Speaker 6: I'm so sorry. You know this will never happen again.
Speaker 6: And I believed him.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, Yeah, I didn't know that person, and
Speaker 4: I'm so sorry.
Speaker 6: I know.
Speaker 4: Why do you think he shows you to go after
Speaker 4: and pray on?
Speaker 6: I think he went after me because it was very obvious.
Speaker 6: I was insecure. You know, I didn't have a lot
Speaker 6: of friends, and I was sheltered. I didn't have anyone
Speaker 6: to talk to. And I think he knew I was
Speaker 6: a pretty really kid, and so he used that trust
Speaker 6: that I had in him.
Speaker 4: I've done a lot of research. I'm sure you have
Speaker 4: as well. It's textbook grooming and predator behavior.
Speaker 6: It is.
Speaker 4: And I didn't see it, and I know some people
Speaker 4: probably don't believe that, like there must have been signs.
Speaker 4: I can tell you if there was any hint or sign,
Speaker 4: I would have spoken up and done something about it.
Speaker 4: How do you think he got away with all of this?
Speaker 6: I don't think he just woke up one day decided
Speaker 6: to do this. He was very calculated with how he
Speaker 6: was with everyone, all the students he talked to, especially
Speaker 6: the ones in drunk club. He was just very calculated
Speaker 6: with every interaction he had with everyone. He put on
Speaker 6: the face that needed to surface at that time with
Speaker 6: that person, no matter if it was you or his kids.
Speaker 6: For me, he was that person that he needed to
Speaker 6: be at that time.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I lived on the same roof with this person,
Speaker 4: and I am embarrassed.
Speaker 6: You shouldn't be. You didn't know.
Speaker 4: I know, but you know, if you understand shame.
Speaker 6: I do. I do, you shouldn't feel a shamed Yeah.
Speaker 4: Did he ask you to keep it a secret?
Speaker 6: Yeah, he specifically told me. He said, change my name
Speaker 6: on your phone to just one of your friends. And
Speaker 6: I had a really hard time with that. But I
Speaker 6: listened to him and he would say, no one could
Speaker 6: know about this or else, you know, he could be
Speaker 6: with me. And that was the hardest part for me
Speaker 6: because I was close with my parents and I'm so
Speaker 6: close with them. It was just, you know, heavy forms
Speaker 6: of manipulation, saying I love you, that we have to
Speaker 6: preserve what we had, is what he'd say, and that's
Speaker 6: how high school was. After sophomore year, I was just
Speaker 6: completely confused, and I just felt the whole time angry
Speaker 6: and so insecure, and I just remember walking through the hallway.
Speaker 6: I wanted to scream it or just say it to someone,
Speaker 6: and then I thought, who could I tell this to?
Speaker 6: Who wouldn't judge me, you know, because I was so
Speaker 6: scared that I would be judged by whoever I told.
Speaker 6: I remember thinking I wish Heron wasn't Heron at that time,
Speaker 6: because I trusted him so much. I felt like he
Speaker 6: was that person I could go to for anything, and
Speaker 6: I felt so sad that I couldn't go to him
Speaker 6: to talk about how this was happening to me from him,
Speaker 6: If that makes sense.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because I felt the same way. You know, here
Speaker 4: my husband gets arrested right in front of me, and
Speaker 4: that's my best friend, you know. Yeah, that's the person
Speaker 4: that makes me feel safest in the world, and they
Speaker 4: can't even be there for me because the damage was
Speaker 4: done by him.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Did he talk about plans for the future.
Speaker 6: He did. He would talk about that often, you know,
Speaker 6: he'd say, I really want to continue this when you
Speaker 6: graduate and go to college and he'd say, I see
Speaker 6: you as my confidant, my best friend. He'd say stuff
Speaker 6: like that.
Speaker 4: Did I ever come up? Did he ever talk about
Speaker 4: his wife leaving me?
Speaker 6: So he didn't bring you up on his own. I
Speaker 6: brought you up because I remember seeing this picture of
Speaker 6: you and him behind his desk and I didn't know
Speaker 6: who that was. He said, oh, that's my wife, and
Speaker 6: I said, oh, okay. I think he could tell that
Speaker 6: I was shocked, and I was starting to feel really
Speaker 6: uneasy about it. I remember feeling really sick to my
Speaker 6: stomach about it. He told me that you two were
Speaker 6: planning on getting a divorce, and how his friends were
Speaker 6: on board with the divorce, and that I shouldn't feel
Speaker 6: bad about it at all.
Speaker 4: Wow, that was so crazy.
Speaker 6: Looking back, I don't know how someone could live with
Speaker 6: so many lies and grew to sleep at night knowing
Speaker 6: that you've manipulated everyone in your life.
Speaker 4: From the moment he woke up until the moment he
Speaker 4: fell asleep. Did you realize at the time that what
Speaker 4: he was doing is illegal?
Speaker 6: I wasn't sure about the laws when I was a kid.
Speaker 6: I didn't really think about it. He just made sure
Speaker 6: in my head keep what we have, you know, keep
Speaker 6: this safe, because this is special. That's all I ever
Speaker 6: thought about. I never thought about it being illegal up until,
Speaker 6: you know, when I told my parents.
Speaker 4: So talk to me about why you decided to tell
Speaker 4: your parents.
Speaker 6: I planned on not telling them at all. I thought
Speaker 6: I'd take this to the grave. I didn't want to
Speaker 6: tell anyone. I had this health class and she was
Speaker 6: talking about STDs and I never thought about that when
Speaker 6: I was fifteen, sixteen, seventeen. I never thought about that
Speaker 6: until I took that class. And I remember her doing
Speaker 6: this demonstration. Everyone was lining up in the classroom and
Speaker 6: it was something really simple, like just people like touching
Speaker 6: each other's shoulders in class, was showing like how it
Speaker 6: could spread so easily. I don't know, it just kind
Speaker 6: of it just clicked. I guess. I just remember being
Speaker 6: scared that maybe I had caught something. You know. I
Speaker 6: put all the stories he told me together. He was
Speaker 6: boasting about this one interaction he had with two women,
Speaker 6: and it just like all these things kind of popped
Speaker 6: in my head at that time, and I got and
Speaker 6: it just scared me.
Speaker 4: What was that story he had.
Speaker 6: Told me that he had a three way with two women.
Speaker 6: He would tell me things.
Speaker 4: Telling your parents that had to have been so hard.
Speaker 6: You know, when I did tell them, I felt like
Speaker 6: I immediately regretted it.
Speaker 4: Regretted.
Speaker 6: I felt responsible for what my parents went through. The
Speaker 6: I unloaded this huge burden onto them. That's why I
Speaker 6: felt like I regretted that for a while. I never
Speaker 6: regretted going to the police, but I just regretted telling
Speaker 6: my parents. In my case, the police were really helpful
Speaker 6: and they did such an amazing job with the whole thing.
Speaker 6: They never made me feel any type of shame.
Speaker 4: Was there any relief when you did tell your parents?
Speaker 6: Yes, I did feel relief when I told my parents,
Speaker 6: although you know the healing process, you and I both
Speaker 6: know it's not a straightforward shot. Sometimes you relapse and
Speaker 6: you go back and forth, and sometimes, like at first,
Speaker 6: I sometimes regretted it just because of all the pain
Speaker 6: that it brought up. I felt like I dragged them
Speaker 6: into something that I didn't even plan on telling anyone
Speaker 6: at all.
Speaker 4: Gosh, it's so interesting that you say burden, that you
Speaker 4: put this huge burden on them, because you know I
Speaker 4: did that too, with my family and friends, with my
Speaker 4: whole community. I mean, we all had to deal with it. Yeah,
Speaker 4: my problem was their problem. Yeah, after you reported it
Speaker 4: to the police, did they tell you what the next
Speaker 4: step was going to be? Did you know what would
Speaker 4: happen after that?
Speaker 6: I wasn't even thinking about the next step at the time.
Speaker 6: I mean, I'm pretty sure that they let me know that,
Speaker 6: you know, certain court hearings would happen, But other than that,
Speaker 6: I was just processing this whole thing and trying to
Speaker 6: sit with my parents through it.
Speaker 4: Did you know that he would be arrested?
Speaker 6: I did? Yeah. By that time, you know, I realized
Speaker 6: that what I was going through wasn't right, you know,
Speaker 6: me feeling depressed and just completely devastated all the time.
Speaker 6: I had an inkling that this was legally wrong.
Speaker 4: It must have been hard to share the intimate details
Speaker 4: that you had to share with them.
Speaker 6: It was that the police didn't make me feel humiliated.
Speaker 6: You know, they were very understanding.
Speaker 4: As you you know, retold the story to the police.
Speaker 4: Did you realize then how wrong? Like did the pieces
Speaker 4: all start kind of coming together it?
Speaker 6: Did? You know? Just as I got older, and what
Speaker 6: really happened for me was when he was deployed and
Speaker 6: he was just gone, that I could see things more clearly,
Speaker 6: and you know that last time, you know, senior year,
Speaker 6: when he was gone, I felt relief that I could
Speaker 6: kind of start opening up to being more me, not
Speaker 6: just hiding myself away, and I could start to also
Speaker 6: see things more clearly. And I realized how good I
Speaker 6: felt when he was gone versus when I was always
Speaker 6: under his watch, you know, if he had that power
Speaker 6: over me. So when he was gone, I could actually
Speaker 6: relive and breathe, you know, and through that I got
Speaker 6: a lot of clarity. It just clicked.
Speaker 4: That makes so much sense. He was deployed January twenty eighteen.
Speaker 4: He came back from deployment two weeks before graduation. Yeah,
Speaker 4: what about all the comments I know on social media,
Speaker 4: people commented on the news stories, people commented a lot
Speaker 4: of people, a lot of students, a lot of former students.
Speaker 4: Pretty much anybody I talked to didn't believe it and
Speaker 4: were shocked. Said he would be the last person that
Speaker 4: would ever do something like this.
Speaker 6: I mean I didn't think this then, but I know
Speaker 6: this now. It's always the people that you least expect,
Speaker 6: you know. That's what I've read, you know, with research
Speaker 6: at that time, when people were saying that I had
Speaker 6: made it up, or that a student was maybe making
Speaker 6: it up. I wasn't necessarily angry, because it can happen
Speaker 6: that people make these things up. But I knew that
Speaker 6: I was standing in my truth because there was evidence.
Speaker 6: You know, they would see it, you know, as soon
Speaker 6: as he got convicted. So I wasn't necessarily angry.
Speaker 4: If you hadn't spoken up, what do you think would
Speaker 4: have happened.
Speaker 6: I think there would have been another victim.
Speaker 4: Thank god. I mean, you saved my life, and you
Speaker 4: were brave enough to do that. And I know it
Speaker 4: kind of sounds dramatic, but literally, you saved my life.
Speaker 4: I mean I was put in a really dangerous position.
Speaker 4: He was also doing this to grown women.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think there's a lot of people that are
Speaker 4: silently thanking you. You know, a grown woman is saying
Speaker 4: thank you for speaking up.
Speaker 6: I'm just happy he's stopped. It's done with him.
Speaker 4: So tell me about how the school responded.
Speaker 6: I had actually never been in the courtroom, not for
Speaker 6: the criminal investigations or anything like that. This was the
Speaker 6: first time I was in court for the civil matter.
Speaker 6: When I was in court for the summary judgment, they
Speaker 6: made it sound like it was in a way my
Speaker 6: fault because according to them, it was my decision to
Speaker 6: take the class, and you know, they called it a relationship,
Speaker 6: which made it sound like it was on me. They
Speaker 6: made me feel like the guy was on trial. In
Speaker 6: a way, it was pure victim shaming. I just felt
Speaker 6: so misunderstood. I usually, you know, keep things together. I
Speaker 6: don't you know, I don't cry in public, That's just
Speaker 6: how I am. But I broke down. I felt so misunderstood.
Speaker 6: I can't even begin to say how hurtful it really
Speaker 6: wants to have the schools say that, in a way,
Speaker 6: this was my fault. That's a lot.
Speaker 4: That's something no one should ever ever have to go through.
Speaker 6: This isn't about me anymore. This is bigger than me. Now.
Speaker 6: What happened to me happened to me. I'm working on
Speaker 6: my healing and you know, I'm doing what I gotta do.
Speaker 6: But there are other kids out there who are now
Speaker 6: going through the same thing. It's about them, especially with
Speaker 6: Cobb County. You know, this is happening again with them,
Speaker 6: and I feel so sorry for the family involved. This
Speaker 6: is a fight for all the kids who feel like
Speaker 6: they can't speak up, and no wonder I felt like
Speaker 6: I couldn't speak up at the time because look what
Speaker 6: happened from me speaking up, They shamed me.
Speaker 4: I think we've both learned that just sharing this stuff,
Speaker 4: if it can help one other person, be brave.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you're absolutely right. I think this is a rare
Speaker 6: thing for someone in your position and someone in my
Speaker 6: position to come together and unite against something so horrific
Speaker 6: that happened to you and I and other women. Especially.
Speaker 6: This happened before at CALP there was a girl who
Speaker 6: was assaulted and she was shamed, And there are victims
Speaker 6: now and there will be in the future because of
Speaker 6: the negligence of the system.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 6: I just hope that this will help someone out there,
Speaker 6: that's all I want. I just want this to help
Speaker 6: someone who's going through the same pain that you went
Speaker 6: through and that I went through. That's all.
Speaker 4: I was shaking so hard when we first started talking,
Speaker 4: and I just I have none of that nervousness anymore.
Speaker 4: I am so blown away by the adult that you
Speaker 4: have become after going through that as a child. Thank you,
Speaker 4: and I'm proud of you.
Speaker 6: I really appreciate that.
Speaker 4: So what does your future look like.
Speaker 6: I've been stuck for so long, you know, over analysis paralysis.
Speaker 6: It was sometimes consuming. My plan is is that I
Speaker 6: want to get to this point where I'm okay with
Speaker 6: myself and I can start putting myself out there again.
Speaker 6: I'm slowly opening up. It's just it takes time. It
Speaker 6: really takes time.
Speaker 4: Oh, I know. I remember there were days I just
Speaker 4: would call my mom crying and say, I can't do
Speaker 4: this anymore. I can't do this anymore. I just had
Speaker 4: to keep reminding myself baby steps, and I've come a
Speaker 4: long way.
Speaker 6: You have, I mean, from what you want through and
Speaker 6: then you reaching out to me. That was very courageous.
Speaker 4: I just am really proud that I get to talk
Speaker 4: to someone like you and that I can share this.
Speaker 4: This is what helps keep the world a good place.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 4: Looking back at that fifteen year old, what would you
Speaker 4: tell her?
Speaker 6: I would tell her it's going to be okay, and
Speaker 6: I would say I love you.
Speaker 4: Coming up on this season of Betrayal, I'll talk with
Speaker 4: some of the women who had affairs with Spence.
Speaker 6: I put this, I was being used whenever there was
Speaker 6: a need, but I really thought that he loved me.
Speaker 6: I came to your house once.
Speaker 4: He invited a woman into my house.
Speaker 6: He did. I bet I wasn't the only one.
Speaker 4: And I'll also speak with Spencer himself.
Speaker 1: Step charges and consent to this recorded call press one.
Speaker 4: And on next week's episode.
Speaker 8: All of those girls, every single one of them, he
Speaker 8: would message them, Let's get coffee, Let's get drinks. Nicole's
Speaker 8: boyfriend actually told her to stop texting him because he
Speaker 8: was like, this is your high school teacher. Why is
Speaker 8: he asking you to go get drinks? You're eighteen. We
Speaker 8: were all like, Oh, it's just coach Haaron.
Speaker 1: If you'd like to reach out to the Betrayal team,
Speaker 1: email us at Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. That's
Speaker 1: Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. Betrayal is a production
Speaker 1: of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group and
Speaker 1: partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show was executive produced by
Speaker 1: Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me
Speaker 1: Andre Gunning, written and produced by Kerry Hartman, also produced
Speaker 1: by Ben Fetterman. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and
Speaker 1: Jessica Crinchick. Special thanks to voice actor Todd Gans. Sound
Speaker 1: editing and mixing done by Matt Taveccio. Betrayal's theme was
Speaker 1: composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by my Music
Speaker 1: and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.