1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,360 Speaker 1: This podcast discusses sexual assault. Please take care while listening. 2 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 2: I think we have to make sure people are supported 3 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 2: when they come forward. Lots of times people want to 4 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:18,600 Speaker 2: come forward, but they're scared this person has groomed them. 5 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 2: You know, I'm the teacher. I do this, I got 6 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:23,799 Speaker 2: this award. You know, I've been here for so long. 7 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 2: These people know me, so it's very hard for people 8 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 2: to come forward to begin with. Then the lawyers on 9 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 2: the defense side, they're going to ostracize them big time. 10 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 2: They're going to call them a slept they're going to 11 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 2: call them a whod They're going to call them everything 12 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 2: under the book to embarrass them, and then that keeps 13 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:44,279 Speaker 2: other people from coming forward. We really have to do 14 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 2: a better job. 15 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: That was Cobb County District Attorney Flynn Brody Jr. I'm 16 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 1: Andre Gunning and this is Betrayal, Episode three, breaking her silence. 17 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: After Spence was put behind bars, he would often write Jennifer. 18 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: Here's an excerpt from a letter he sent after a 19 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 1: meeting with his attorney, Brian Hobbs. It offers insight on 20 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: how he viewed his relationship with the sexual assault victim. 21 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 3: Most of what she told the police was fairly accurate, 22 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 3: but her descriptions were sometimes way off. Brian says there 23 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 3: is great danger in putting much back on her because 24 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 3: it will take away my position of being remorseful, taking 25 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 3: responsibility for my actions, and admitting wrongdoing. My question to 26 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 3: Brian was, how do we lessen her half truths to 27 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 3: not make me look like such a monster or the 28 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 3: only instigator. Clearly I wasn't. But we've come back around 29 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 3: to the quote doesn't matter issue. 30 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: My producing partner, Carrie Hartman, started emailing and calling women 31 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: that Spencer had pursued while he was married to Jennifer. 32 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: Many refused to even acknowledge us, but others wanted to talk. 33 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 4: Hey Dre, Hey Jen. 34 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 5: So I'm glad we're connecting this morning because I do 35 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 5: have some news for you. 36 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: Okay. 37 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 5: So we did reach out to the sexual assault victim's attorney, 38 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 5: her civil attorney really, yeah, and the victim she actually 39 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 5: filed a case in twenty nineteen against three school administrators. 40 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 4: Okay. 41 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 5: Actually, Carrie is the one who spoke to him directly. Carrie, 42 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 5: do you want to fill us in? 43 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 6: Yeah? 44 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:47,959 Speaker 7: So the attorney's name is Mike Rafie. He's in Atlanta. Actually, 45 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 7: we ended up talking for almost an hour. 46 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 4: Oh okay, So I don't. 47 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 7: Know if you're aware exactly when the assault started. But 48 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 7: she was fifteen and she was a sophomore at school. 49 00:02:58,760 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 4: Okay. 50 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 7: Now she's a twenty one year old college student. She's 51 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 7: a young woman, she has agency. Yeah, she wants an 52 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 7: opportunity to. 53 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 6: Tell her story. 54 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 4: Okay, but before going on. 55 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 6: The record, she would like to have a private. 56 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,679 Speaker 7: Moment with you, one on one. 57 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 4: She wants to meet in person. 58 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 6: Yeah, oh my god. 59 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 4: I have not wanted to ever bother her in any 60 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 4: way because she's the victim in all of this. 61 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 7: You both are. 62 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 4: You both are listen. If she's willing that, that's huge, 63 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 4: that's everything. Yeah, I mean, I'm scared shitless, but I'm 64 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 4: searching for all the missing puzzle pieces to figure out 65 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 4: who this person is that I married. And you know, 66 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 4: in turn. 67 00:03:58,200 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 7: If. 68 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 4: It helps her in some way, I'll do whatever I can. 69 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: Jennifer was scared shitless. We talked to her right before. 70 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: They're one on one. Two very rave women who never 71 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: expected to meet just sat in a restaurant and listened 72 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: to each other, and then it went on the record. 73 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:27,280 Speaker 4: Thank you very very much for doing this, and for 74 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 4: talking to me and for trusting me, and for sharing 75 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 4: your story because I think it's really really important. I'm shaking. 76 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 6: Yeah, me too. 77 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 4: We have met once in person. What was that a 78 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 4: week ago? 79 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 6: Yeah? It was. 80 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 4: I told you then that I'm just really sorry that 81 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 4: this happened. Why did you agree to talk with me? 82 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 6: Well, I wanted to talk to you first in person 83 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,919 Speaker 6: because I thought and I still think, it helped me, 84 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 6: and I hope it helped you with the healing process, 85 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 6: because us meeting is a sign of empowerment and it's 86 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 6: a chance for us to start moving forward in a 87 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 6: healthy way. This is also a chance for me to, 88 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 6: in a way, to defend myself to the public eye 89 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 6: with my own words. It's one thing to go through 90 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 6: the courts and have an attorney talk for you, but 91 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 6: it's also another to step out and speak for yourself. 92 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 6: So I'm just grateful that we're here now. 93 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 4: It was important that I see you for who you 94 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 4: were back then, which was a young girl. What were 95 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 4: you like in high school? 96 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 6: Oh? Okay, in high school, I was pretty shy. I 97 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 6: didn't have a lot of friends. I knew people, but 98 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 6: I never actually took the time to hang out with people. 99 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 6: So I was kind of lonely as a kid before 100 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:14,679 Speaker 6: everything with Haron. I had one boyfriend. It was someone 101 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 6: I went to the dance with. You know, when you're 102 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 6: a kid and you just you like someone and you 103 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 6: hold their hand. It was very innocent. I do look 104 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 6: back on that because sometimes I missed that innocence. 105 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 4: I'm glad that you had that. 106 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 6: That was a nice memory to look back on. 107 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 4: Do you remember when you first met Spence when he 108 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 4: first became your teacher. 109 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 8: Yeah. 110 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 6: I took the video production class, I believe my sophomore 111 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 6: year and that was level one, and so I was 112 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 6: just basically starting out with video production. I knew nothing 113 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:55,280 Speaker 6: about it, so that's how I met him. We mostly 114 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,559 Speaker 6: got to know each other during times of the Drone 115 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 6: Club when he first gave out his number to the 116 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 6: club members. It was mostly about shooting videos with the 117 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 6: drone or editing, and then he would write me more 118 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 6: about just music or sometimes movies. 119 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 4: What was he like as a teacher when you first started. 120 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 6: With him, Very energetic, just very nice to be around. 121 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 6: At first. It was fun that class. I had a 122 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 6: lot to look forward to with learning about equipment and editing, 123 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 6: and he seemed very excited about his curriculum and motivated 124 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 6: to teach his students. You know, when you take classes 125 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 6: that are not academic in high school, it's a relief 126 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 6: because it gives you a chance to be creative. And 127 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 6: it was also that trust that you had in someone 128 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 6: who was also so motivated to be a mentor in 129 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 6: his students' lives. So I saw him at first as 130 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 6: someone I can trust. You know, if I ever felt 131 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 6: like I needed to, you know, talk to him about school, 132 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 6: I felt safe at first to do that. 133 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 4: Of course, you're going to trust that person. Yes, yeah, 134 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 4: And I think that might be what some people don't 135 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 4: understand about this is there's a grooming process. Do you 136 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 4: feel like that might have been your situation. 137 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 6: I think the students in general, those who were not 138 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 6: sexual abuse victims were, I want to stay groomed in 139 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 6: a way where he made sure that no one saw 140 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:43,199 Speaker 6: him in that way. But me, as a sexual abuse victim, 141 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 6: I was groomed in a way where that trust was 142 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 6: implemented to violate boundaries over and over again. 143 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 4: The reason my ex husband's in prison is because you 144 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 4: were brave enough to come forward and report something, and 145 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 4: so many times it doesn't get reported. 146 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 6: Yeah, it doesn't. 147 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 4: Unfortunately, when do you feel like that first boundary was 148 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:13,839 Speaker 4: really crossed? 149 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 6: We were talking about shooting this video or like short 150 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 6: movie with the club, and he had texted me that 151 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 6: he had feelings for me. I remember feeling I don't know, 152 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 6: I guess shocked. It's an understatement. I just felt so. Yeah, 153 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 6: I guess shocked is the word. That was the Yeah, 154 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,559 Speaker 6: that was the first time at least when the boundary 155 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 6: was crossed. And he told me that he wanted to 156 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 6: talk about it in person, and I agreed to because 157 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 6: I thought maybe we could talk about it and that 158 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 6: would be that. When I met him at school, classes 159 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 6: were about to end around three. They didn't quite and yet, 160 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 6: so school hadn't ended yet. But he brought me back 161 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 6: to the control room and that's when he kissed me. 162 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 4: How did you respond. 163 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 6: It's kind of a blur. I'll be honest. It didn't 164 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 6: feel right. I guess I was just confused in a way, 165 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 6: and I think maybe I could have just had a 166 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 6: say in it. I don't know, like I felt like 167 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 6: it was wrong in my heart, but when he kissed me, 168 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 6: he would reassure me and say, well, you know, it's 169 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 6: because I love you. This is why you know, this 170 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 6: is why this is okay, because we're meant to be together. 171 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 4: At the time, was it a shock or what went 172 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 4: through your mind? 173 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 6: It was a shock. What I remember feeling most was 174 00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 6: really confused. I think I was more confused with a 175 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 6: grown adult telling me that they had these feelings for 176 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 6: me that you see in movies, you know when someone 177 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 6: confesses their feelings, and as a kid, it's shocking when 178 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 6: someone tells you at the time that they love you 179 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 6: and they have these feelings for you that they don't 180 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 6: want to hide, and that you're special. It was a shock. 181 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 6: I remember him specifically saying that he had never felt 182 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 6: this way before with anyone, and that I was special 183 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,959 Speaker 6: to him. That's how he made me feel. He made 184 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 6: me feel special and I could I could trust him 185 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 6: if I ever needed to talk to him about anything 186 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 6: or anything personal. 187 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 4: Sorry, this part is hard for me, but this is 188 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 4: what this journey is about. It's not easy, but getting 189 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 4: the clarity and the answers and filling in those blanks 190 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 4: that you don't know about help so much. And just 191 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,319 Speaker 4: bear with me and I can hear it. I told 192 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 4: you this when we met. I do not judge you. 193 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 4: I do not hold you responsible. I am not mad 194 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 4: at you, none of those things. You know, how could 195 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 4: I be. You were the biggest victim in all of this, 196 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 4: and I know that, and I understand that. So it 197 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 4: sounds like there was some kind of I hate calling 198 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 4: it a relationship, but some kind of relationship established where 199 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:44,079 Speaker 4: you guys talked more than just school stuff. If he 200 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 4: was developing these feelings for you. 201 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 6: I hate calling it a relationship too. And I was 202 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 6: really thinking about this because I was recently in court 203 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:01,359 Speaker 6: and the school said that this was a relationship, basically 204 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 6: placing the blame on me, that I was instigating this. 205 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 6: I understand what you mean when you say it. You know, 206 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 6: it's different from when you say it versus when someone's 207 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 6: placing the blame on a fifteen year old kid. But 208 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 6: he established with everyone a talking basis, if that makes sense, 209 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 6: Like he would give out his phone number to everyone, 210 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 6: and I think that was as a cover in a 211 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:32,719 Speaker 6: way to make it look like it was normal for 212 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 6: him to talk to anyone over the phone. 213 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 4: As far as you know, is that normal for a 214 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,199 Speaker 4: teacher to give out their cell phone number? 215 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 6: At the time, I thought it was normal But then 216 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 6: there was another teacher at CAL and I wasn't in 217 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 6: that club, but I overheard students and this teacher speaking 218 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 6: and they asked, well, you know, it'd be easier if 219 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 6: we just have each other's numbers, and I remember him 220 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 6: strictly saying no, no, no, no no. You know that 221 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 6: I will never do that. And that's when it kind 222 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 6: of clicked for me that this wasn't normal. 223 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 4: So how did he justify doing this with a student? 224 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 6: The first thing he said to me was, I've never 225 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 6: done this with a student. I've never felt this way 226 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 6: about anyone. The constant violations of boundaries, you know, had 227 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 6: the excuse of, well, this is what boyfriends and girlfriends do. 228 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 6: It's because I love you that we're doing this. And 229 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 6: he used my faith against me. You know, it's really 230 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 6: a true form of manipulation. 231 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 4: How did he use your faith against you? 232 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 6: He would say that God brought us together, that we 233 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 6: were meant to be, that it was all a part 234 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 6: of a cosmic plan, and you know, as a fifteen 235 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 6: year old, I felt really special to him. 236 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 4: Did you ever talk about if it was wrong or not? 237 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 4: Maybe not even teacher student, but the age difference or 238 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 4: him being married. 239 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 6: I didn't think about him being married. I just thought 240 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 6: of him as, oh, it's coach hearing, because I only 241 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 6: saw him for the club and you know, for school, 242 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 6: and it was always just co charing to me, So 243 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 6: like his personal life, I didn't even really think of it. 244 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 6: You know. I expressed to him that I was a 245 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 6: virgin and I don't know if I was ready for anything, 246 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 6: And you know, it was always the same excuse. He 247 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 6: would tell me that it would be okay, that he 248 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 6: wouldn't hurt me, and that he loved me. That was 249 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 6: really the main excuse that he gave me because I 250 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 6: was hesitant in law as a kid, especially with the sex. 251 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 6: I wasn't ready at fifteen, I didn't really even think 252 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 6: about sex. And then when it was happening with him, 253 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 6: I didn't want to think about sex because I felt 254 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 6: ashamed in a way. He trained me to be a 255 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 6: woman and I was still a kid, so I was 256 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 6: really confused. I just remember being really confused as a kid. 257 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 6: The only times I do remember vividly are the ones 258 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 6: that were forced, because they're so vivid. I always felt 259 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 6: like I had to do things I just didn't want 260 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 6: to do. But at that time, my feelings for him 261 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 6: were already growing, and he would just reassure me that 262 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 6: it was okay because he loved me. Even when there 263 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 6: were times when he forced himself on me, he'd say, 264 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 6: you know, I'm so sorry. You know I love you. 265 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 6: I'm so sorry. You know this will never happen again. 266 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 6: And I believed him. 267 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 4: Oh my god, Yeah, I didn't know that person, and 268 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 4: I'm so sorry. 269 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 6: I know. 270 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 4: Why do you think he shows you to go after 271 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 4: and pray on? 272 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:10,400 Speaker 6: I think he went after me because it was very obvious. 273 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 6: I was insecure. You know, I didn't have a lot 274 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 6: of friends, and I was sheltered. I didn't have anyone 275 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 6: to talk to. And I think he knew I was 276 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 6: a pretty really kid, and so he used that trust 277 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 6: that I had in him. 278 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 4: I've done a lot of research. I'm sure you have 279 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 4: as well. It's textbook grooming and predator behavior. 280 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 6: It is. 281 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 4: And I didn't see it, and I know some people 282 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,400 Speaker 4: probably don't believe that, like there must have been signs. 283 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 4: I can tell you if there was any hint or sign, 284 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 4: I would have spoken up and done something about it. 285 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 4: How do you think he got away with all of this? 286 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 6: I don't think he just woke up one day decided 287 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 6: to do this. He was very calculated with how he 288 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 6: was with everyone, all the students he talked to, especially 289 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 6: the ones in drunk club. He was just very calculated 290 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 6: with every interaction he had with everyone. He put on 291 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 6: the face that needed to surface at that time with 292 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 6: that person, no matter if it was you or his kids. 293 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 6: For me, he was that person that he needed to 294 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 6: be at that time. 295 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,719 Speaker 4: Yeah, I lived on the same roof with this person, 296 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 4: and I am embarrassed. 297 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 6: You shouldn't be. You didn't know. 298 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 4: I know, but you know, if you understand shame. 299 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 6: I do. I do, you shouldn't feel a shamed Yeah. 300 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 4: Did he ask you to keep it a secret? 301 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 6: Yeah, he specifically told me. He said, change my name 302 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 6: on your phone to just one of your friends. And 303 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:57,959 Speaker 6: I had a really hard time with that. But I 304 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 6: listened to him and he would say, no one could 305 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 6: know about this or else, you know, he could be 306 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 6: with me. And that was the hardest part for me 307 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 6: because I was close with my parents and I'm so 308 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 6: close with them. It was just, you know, heavy forms 309 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:17,439 Speaker 6: of manipulation, saying I love you, that we have to 310 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 6: preserve what we had, is what he'd say, and that's 311 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 6: how high school was. After sophomore year, I was just 312 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 6: completely confused, and I just felt the whole time angry 313 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 6: and so insecure, and I just remember walking through the hallway. 314 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 6: I wanted to scream it or just say it to someone, 315 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 6: and then I thought, who could I tell this to? 316 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 6: Who wouldn't judge me, you know, because I was so 317 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 6: scared that I would be judged by whoever I told. 318 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 6: I remember thinking I wish Heron wasn't Heron at that time, 319 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 6: because I trusted him so much. I felt like he 320 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 6: was that person I could go to for anything, and 321 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 6: I felt so sad that I couldn't go to him 322 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 6: to talk about how this was happening to me from him, 323 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 6: If that makes sense. 324 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, because I felt the same way. You know, here 325 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:14,360 Speaker 4: my husband gets arrested right in front of me, and 326 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 4: that's my best friend, you know. Yeah, that's the person 327 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 4: that makes me feel safest in the world, and they 328 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 4: can't even be there for me because the damage was 329 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 4: done by him. 330 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 6: Yeah. 331 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 4: Did he talk about plans for the future. 332 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 6: He did. He would talk about that often, you know, 333 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 6: he'd say, I really want to continue this when you 334 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 6: graduate and go to college and he'd say, I see 335 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 6: you as my confidant, my best friend. He'd say stuff 336 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 6: like that. 337 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 4: Did I ever come up? Did he ever talk about 338 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 4: his wife leaving me? 339 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,439 Speaker 6: So he didn't bring you up on his own. I 340 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 6: brought you up because I remember seeing this picture of 341 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 6: you and him behind his desk and I didn't know 342 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 6: who that was. He said, oh, that's my wife, and 343 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 6: I said, oh, okay. I think he could tell that 344 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 6: I was shocked, and I was starting to feel really 345 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 6: uneasy about it. I remember feeling really sick to my 346 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 6: stomach about it. He told me that you two were 347 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 6: planning on getting a divorce, and how his friends were 348 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:31,120 Speaker 6: on board with the divorce, and that I shouldn't feel 349 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 6: bad about it at all. 350 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 4: Wow, that was so crazy. 351 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 6: Looking back, I don't know how someone could live with 352 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 6: so many lies and grew to sleep at night knowing 353 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 6: that you've manipulated everyone in your life. 354 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 4: From the moment he woke up until the moment he 355 00:21:53,119 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 4: fell asleep. Did you realize at the time that what 356 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 4: he was doing is illegal? 357 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,880 Speaker 6: I wasn't sure about the laws when I was a kid. 358 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 6: I didn't really think about it. He just made sure 359 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 6: in my head keep what we have, you know, keep 360 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 6: this safe, because this is special. That's all I ever 361 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 6: thought about. I never thought about it being illegal up until, 362 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 6: you know, when I told my parents. 363 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 4: So talk to me about why you decided to tell 364 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 4: your parents. 365 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 6: I planned on not telling them at all. I thought 366 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 6: I'd take this to the grave. I didn't want to 367 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:44,199 Speaker 6: tell anyone. I had this health class and she was 368 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 6: talking about STDs and I never thought about that when 369 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 6: I was fifteen, sixteen, seventeen. I never thought about that 370 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,120 Speaker 6: until I took that class. And I remember her doing 371 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 6: this demonstration. Everyone was lining up in the classroom and 372 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 6: it was something really simple, like just people like touching 373 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 6: each other's shoulders in class, was showing like how it 374 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 6: could spread so easily. I don't know, it just kind 375 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 6: of it just clicked. I guess. I just remember being 376 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 6: scared that maybe I had caught something. You know. I 377 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 6: put all the stories he told me together. He was 378 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 6: boasting about this one interaction he had with two women, 379 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 6: and it just like all these things kind of popped 380 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 6: in my head at that time, and I got and 381 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 6: it just scared me. 382 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 4: What was that story he had. 383 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 6: Told me that he had a three way with two women. 384 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 6: He would tell me things. 385 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 4: Telling your parents that had to have been so hard. 386 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 6: You know, when I did tell them, I felt like 387 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 6: I immediately regretted it. 388 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 4: Regretted. 389 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 6: I felt responsible for what my parents went through. The 390 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 6: I unloaded this huge burden onto them. That's why I 391 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 6: felt like I regretted that for a while. I never 392 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 6: regretted going to the police, but I just regretted telling 393 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 6: my parents. In my case, the police were really helpful 394 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 6: and they did such an amazing job with the whole thing. 395 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 6: They never made me feel any type of shame. 396 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 4: Was there any relief when you did tell your parents? 397 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 6: Yes, I did feel relief when I told my parents, 398 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 6: although you know the healing process, you and I both 399 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 6: know it's not a straightforward shot. Sometimes you relapse and 400 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 6: you go back and forth, and sometimes, like at first, 401 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 6: I sometimes regretted it just because of all the pain 402 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 6: that it brought up. I felt like I dragged them 403 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 6: into something that I didn't even plan on telling anyone 404 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 6: at all. 405 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 4: Gosh, it's so interesting that you say burden, that you 406 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 4: put this huge burden on them, because you know I 407 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 4: did that too, with my family and friends, with my 408 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:04,639 Speaker 4: whole community. I mean, we all had to deal with it. Yeah, 409 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 4: my problem was their problem. Yeah, after you reported it 410 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 4: to the police, did they tell you what the next 411 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 4: step was going to be? Did you know what would 412 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:16,400 Speaker 4: happen after that? 413 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 6: I wasn't even thinking about the next step at the time. 414 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 6: I mean, I'm pretty sure that they let me know that, 415 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 6: you know, certain court hearings would happen, But other than that, 416 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 6: I was just processing this whole thing and trying to 417 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 6: sit with my parents through it. 418 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 4: Did you know that he would be arrested? 419 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,640 Speaker 6: I did? Yeah. By that time, you know, I realized 420 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 6: that what I was going through wasn't right, you know, 421 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 6: me feeling depressed and just completely devastated all the time. 422 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 6: I had an inkling that this was legally wrong. 423 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 4: It must have been hard to share the intimate details 424 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:53,880 Speaker 4: that you had to share with them. 425 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 6: It was that the police didn't make me feel humiliated. 426 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 6: You know, they were very understanding. 427 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,400 Speaker 4: As you you know, retold the story to the police. 428 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:11,920 Speaker 4: Did you realize then how wrong? Like did the pieces 429 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 4: all start kind of coming together it? 430 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 6: Did? You know? Just as I got older, and what 431 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,919 Speaker 6: really happened for me was when he was deployed and 432 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 6: he was just gone, that I could see things more clearly, 433 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 6: and you know that last time, you know, senior year, 434 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 6: when he was gone, I felt relief that I could 435 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 6: kind of start opening up to being more me, not 436 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 6: just hiding myself away, and I could start to also 437 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:46,159 Speaker 6: see things more clearly. And I realized how good I 438 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 6: felt when he was gone versus when I was always 439 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 6: under his watch, you know, if he had that power 440 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 6: over me. So when he was gone, I could actually 441 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 6: relive and breathe, you know, and through that I got 442 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 6: a lot of clarity. It just clicked. 443 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:07,160 Speaker 4: That makes so much sense. He was deployed January twenty eighteen. 444 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 4: He came back from deployment two weeks before graduation. Yeah, 445 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 4: what about all the comments I know on social media, 446 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 4: people commented on the news stories, people commented a lot 447 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 4: of people, a lot of students, a lot of former students. 448 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 4: Pretty much anybody I talked to didn't believe it and 449 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 4: were shocked. Said he would be the last person that 450 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 4: would ever do something like this. 451 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 6: I mean I didn't think this then, but I know 452 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,680 Speaker 6: this now. It's always the people that you least expect, 453 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 6: you know. That's what I've read, you know, with research 454 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 6: at that time, when people were saying that I had 455 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 6: made it up, or that a student was maybe making 456 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 6: it up. I wasn't necessarily angry, because it can happen 457 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 6: that people make these things up. But I knew that 458 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 6: I was standing in my truth because there was evidence. 459 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,400 Speaker 6: You know, they would see it, you know, as soon 460 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 6: as he got convicted. So I wasn't necessarily angry. 461 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:19,120 Speaker 4: If you hadn't spoken up, what do you think would 462 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:19,640 Speaker 4: have happened. 463 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 6: I think there would have been another victim. 464 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 4: Thank god. I mean, you saved my life, and you 465 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:31,439 Speaker 4: were brave enough to do that. And I know it 466 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 4: kind of sounds dramatic, but literally, you saved my life. 467 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 4: I mean I was put in a really dangerous position. 468 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 4: He was also doing this to grown women. 469 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 6: Yeah. 470 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think there's a lot of people that are 471 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 4: silently thanking you. You know, a grown woman is saying 472 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 4: thank you for speaking up. 473 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 6: I'm just happy he's stopped. It's done with him. 474 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 4: So tell me about how the school responded. 475 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 6: I had actually never been in the courtroom, not for 476 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 6: the criminal investigations or anything like that. This was the 477 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 6: first time I was in court for the civil matter. 478 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 6: When I was in court for the summary judgment, they 479 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 6: made it sound like it was in a way my 480 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 6: fault because according to them, it was my decision to 481 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 6: take the class, and you know, they called it a relationship, 482 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 6: which made it sound like it was on me. They 483 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 6: made me feel like the guy was on trial. In 484 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 6: a way, it was pure victim shaming. I just felt 485 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 6: so misunderstood. I usually, you know, keep things together. I 486 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 6: don't you know, I don't cry in public, That's just 487 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 6: how I am. But I broke down. I felt so misunderstood. 488 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 6: I can't even begin to say how hurtful it really 489 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 6: wants to have the schools say that, in a way, 490 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 6: this was my fault. That's a lot. 491 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 4: That's something no one should ever ever have to go through. 492 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 6: This isn't about me anymore. This is bigger than me. Now. 493 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 6: What happened to me happened to me. I'm working on 494 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 6: my healing and you know, I'm doing what I gotta do. 495 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 6: But there are other kids out there who are now 496 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 6: going through the same thing. It's about them, especially with 497 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 6: Cobb County. You know, this is happening again with them, 498 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 6: and I feel so sorry for the family involved. This 499 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 6: is a fight for all the kids who feel like 500 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 6: they can't speak up, and no wonder I felt like 501 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 6: I couldn't speak up at the time because look what 502 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 6: happened from me speaking up, They shamed me. 503 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 4: I think we've both learned that just sharing this stuff, 504 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 4: if it can help one other person, be brave. 505 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 6: Yeah, you're absolutely right. I think this is a rare 506 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 6: thing for someone in your position and someone in my 507 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 6: position to come together and unite against something so horrific 508 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 6: that happened to you and I and other women. Especially. 509 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 6: This happened before at CALP there was a girl who 510 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 6: was assaulted and she was shamed, And there are victims 511 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 6: now and there will be in the future because of 512 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 6: the negligence of the system. 513 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 4: Yeah. 514 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 6: I just hope that this will help someone out there, 515 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 6: that's all I want. I just want this to help 516 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 6: someone who's going through the same pain that you went 517 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 6: through and that I went through. That's all. 518 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 4: I was shaking so hard when we first started talking, 519 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 4: and I just I have none of that nervousness anymore. 520 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 4: I am so blown away by the adult that you 521 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 4: have become after going through that as a child. Thank you, 522 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 4: and I'm proud of you. 523 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 6: I really appreciate that. 524 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 4: So what does your future look like. 525 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 6: I've been stuck for so long, you know, over analysis paralysis. 526 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 6: It was sometimes consuming. My plan is is that I 527 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 6: want to get to this point where I'm okay with 528 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 6: myself and I can start putting myself out there again. 529 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 6: I'm slowly opening up. It's just it takes time. It 530 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 6: really takes time. 531 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 4: Oh, I know. I remember there were days I just 532 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 4: would call my mom crying and say, I can't do 533 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 4: this anymore. I can't do this anymore. I just had 534 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 4: to keep reminding myself baby steps, and I've come a 535 00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 4: long way. 536 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 6: You have, I mean, from what you want through and 537 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 6: then you reaching out to me. That was very courageous. 538 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 4: I just am really proud that I get to talk 539 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 4: to someone like you and that I can share this. 540 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 4: This is what helps keep the world a good place. 541 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 6: Yeah, you're absolutely right. 542 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 4: Looking back at that fifteen year old, what would you 543 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 4: tell her? 544 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 6: I would tell her it's going to be okay, and 545 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 6: I would say I love you. 546 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 4: Coming up on this season of Betrayal, I'll talk with 547 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 4: some of the women who had affairs with Spence. 548 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 6: I put this, I was being used whenever there was 549 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 6: a need, but I really thought that he loved me. 550 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 6: I came to your house once. 551 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 4: He invited a woman into my house. 552 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 6: He did. I bet I wasn't the only one. 553 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 4: And I'll also speak with Spencer himself. 554 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 1: Step charges and consent to this recorded call press one. 555 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,760 Speaker 4: And on next week's episode. 556 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 8: All of those girls, every single one of them, he 557 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 8: would message them, Let's get coffee, Let's get drinks. Nicole's 558 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 8: boyfriend actually told her to stop texting him because he 559 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 8: was like, this is your high school teacher. Why is 560 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:29,359 Speaker 8: he asking you to go get drinks? You're eighteen. We 561 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 8: were all like, Oh, it's just coach Haaron. 562 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,320 Speaker 1: If you'd like to reach out to the Betrayal team, 563 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 1: email us at Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. That's 564 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 1: Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. Betrayal is a production 565 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group and 566 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,319 Speaker 1: partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show was executive produced by 567 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me 568 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: Andre Gunning, written and produced by Kerry Hartman, also produced 569 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,440 Speaker 1: by Ben Fetterman. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and 570 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: Jessica Crinchick. Special thanks to voice actor Todd Gans. Sound 571 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 1: editing and mixing done by Matt Taveccio. Betrayal's theme was 572 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,800 Speaker 1: composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by my Music 573 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,759 Speaker 1: and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, 574 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.