1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: It's the last week of National Make a Will Month. 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: At legal Zoom, they're still time to take control of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: your family's assets and their future. Sure, there's a lot 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: to think about, but that's why legal Zoom created an 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,319 Speaker 1: estate planning kit to help you get going. You get 6 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: an estate plan checklist and e book and other information 7 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: to help you decide what to do. And you can 8 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: always get advice from legal zooms nationwide network of independent 9 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: lawyers without being billed by the hour. Since legal zoom 10 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 1: is not a law firm, hurry to legal zoom dot 11 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:43,520 Speaker 1: com now for your free estate planning kit. No obligation, 12 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: just great resources to help you protect what you care 13 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: about your family. For special savings, be sure to enter 14 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: code Nancy in a n C y at checkout legal 15 00:00:55,560 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: zoom dot com legal zoom dot com Climb Stories with 16 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace on Serious x M Triumph Channel one thirty two. 17 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: This young, aspiring pastor charged with murdering his Sunday school 18 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: teacher wife. What do you mean by what happened? Year 19 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 1: old Matthew Phelps arrested after a detailed and disturbing call 20 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 1: to one I'll turn on the lights and she stood 21 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: on the floor between labored Breath's an alarming admission over me. 22 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: And here's your boy, knife on the bed, and I 23 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: think I did it. I can't police here. A disoriented 24 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: sounding caller telling the dispatcher he took cough medicine to 25 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: sleep the night before. He qualifies that, yes, it looks 26 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: like I did kill her. The knife is here. I 27 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: have blood all over me. However, this medicine made me 28 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: do it. A twenty eight year old man calls nine 29 00:01:54,600 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: one one. He says he awakes from a dream, turns 30 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: on the lights, and finds his wife, his bride of 31 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: just a few months, dead on the floor. Matthew Phelps, 32 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: twenty eight years old, just out of the courtroom. His 33 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: wife was stabbed multiple times. Laura Ashley Nicole Phelps. They 34 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: haven't even been married a year. Now, let's go through 35 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,679 Speaker 1: what we know. Cheryl McCollum is joining me along with 36 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Bober joining me out of Florida forensic psychiatrist 37 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: Dr Bober. You know this, this is really really gripping 38 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: my imagination because you know, the defense is blaming the 39 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,239 Speaker 1: whole thing on core Seden cough Syrup. Sheryl McCollum, what 40 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: do we know about the crime scene, Nancy, the crime 41 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: scene if you listen to the number on one, cake 42 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,239 Speaker 1: is he wakes up, He's got dry blood on him, 43 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 1: there's a bloody knife from the bed, and his wife 44 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: is dead on the floor. Okay, you know I want 45 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: you to hear the nine one one call because I 46 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:06,799 Speaker 1: heard something very incriminating in this call. Role got me 47 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: exactly what happened? I think I killed mom? What do 48 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: you mean by that? What happened? I had a dream 49 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 1: and then I turned on the lights and she said 50 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: on the floor. How how I'm I'm signs of blood 51 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: all over me and there's a blowy knife on the 52 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: bed and I think I did it? Okay, can mean 53 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: all right, stay on the phone with me. I'm getting 54 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: there and get left. Okay. I can't beliefe this. I 55 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: can't belief this. When did you? When did you wake 56 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: up to find this? I don't even know what time 57 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: it is? All right, stay on the phone with me. 58 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: So I just gonna ask you if you questions of Okay, 59 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: I'm getting some help to you. Are you with Are 60 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: you with the patient? Now? Yeah? I can see your Okay, 61 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: all right? How does the howard is the patient how's 62 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: your She's pretty died? Okay? Is she is? She awakened? 63 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: All right? Now? Would make you think she's the does 64 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: she read? She thought? Breathed? Okay, oh my god? Okay 65 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: do you think he is bond beyond any help? I 66 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 1: told Bo too scared to get too close to her. Okay, 67 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: just down the phone with me, Sam, I'm here with you. 68 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:46,119 Speaker 1: I'm here with you. Is Dr Bober? Do you hear 69 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: between those sobs, the heavy breathing, the heavy breathing, I 70 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:58,160 Speaker 1: would argue from exertion, Dr Bober. Exertion. I mean, think 71 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 1: about it, Dr Bober, you're the shrink, just a lawyer. 72 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: But in order to carry this out in his sleep, 73 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: he says, he would have to get out of bed 74 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: and go to the kitchen, joy, get a butcher knife, 75 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: come back into his bedroom, pick his target. It's not 76 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: a sofa, it's not a chair, it's not a pillow, 77 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: it's not the dog. It's his wife. He has to 78 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: approach his wife and stab her with such strength and 79 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: velocity so as to kill her, stabbing her multiple times. 80 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: Imagine Dr Bober pulling the knife up over your head, 81 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: down again, down again, down again, down again. She's found 82 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 1: in the floor. She's no longer on the bed, Dr Bober, 83 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: She struggled. He's covered in blood. What getting soaked with 84 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: blood doesn't wake you up? All the stabbing, the struggle, 85 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 1: fighting her from the bed to the floor, you don't 86 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 1: wake up. You get all the way too, you find 87 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: the light switch, you turn on the light switch, and 88 00:05:54,320 --> 00:06:00,599 Speaker 1: suddenly then you wake up after all that? Are you 89 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 1: kidding me? And he's claiming that dex joan with Thurman 90 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:08,359 Speaker 1: is what has caused him to be in a deep sleep. 91 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: And hold on, Dr Bober, I believe you defended him before. 92 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: But let me remind you, Dr Bober, this ain't the 93 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 1: cold of blue season. Okay, he said he took course 94 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: to quote feel good his words, not my words, and 95 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 1: so he could go to sleep. All right, hit me, 96 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: give me all you got, Bober. I think the defense 97 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: is actually gonna have a very difficult time with this one, because, 98 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: first of all, if he was taking it in a 99 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: therapeutic dose for a cold or a cough, um, it 100 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: would be unlikely. I mean, I'm gonna say extremely rare 101 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 1: that he would have any kind of reaction like this. 102 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 1: And then if he was taking it recreationally, then that 103 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 1: would be voluntary intoxication, which is not going to work 104 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 1: with an insanity defense. However, that being said, there have 105 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: been isolated case report. How do we get from shugging 106 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: coughs are up to insanity? He's perfectly fine the night before. 107 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: What he got crazy for about? Well, as we know, 108 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: a substance that, for example, is prescribed by a physician 109 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: in a therapeutic dose, can cause someone to not know 110 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: the difference between right and wrong is not prescribed. Well, 111 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: this is not ambient. This is OTC over the counter 112 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: cops right, Well, they're they're having people that have had 113 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: idiosyncratic or strange reactions even to over the counter medicines. 114 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: But again, this being said, the fact that he said 115 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: I took it to feel good is incriminating in the 116 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: sense that he took it recreationally and not for its 117 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: intended use. And if he was using it the way 118 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: he was using it, that's obviously voluntary intoxication. You know, 119 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: it's on the street. It's called Skittles, Red Devils, Triple Triple, 120 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: you name it for getting high on co store. It's 121 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: poor Man's PCP Dr biber That's what it is. And 122 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: here we've got this Kentucky Bible student. Hi is a 123 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: kite on Cora Satan, stabbing his wife dead, and now 124 00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: he's trying to blame the cough store up. Well, let 125 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: me tell you, Cheryl McCollum, Bear aspirin, who owns scorcine, 126 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,679 Speaker 1: who creates Scorcine, is having none of that. They've already 127 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: issued a statement saying we are sympathetic to the family, 128 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: the grieving family of Lauren, but we don't know if 129 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: any violent attacks associated with Corres Sden right. And of 130 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: course they're going to say their product is safe and effective. 131 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: I'm sure that was issued by some one of their 132 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: one of their pr people, you, you know, just to 133 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: make the listeners happy. I have to be mean to 134 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: some poor man on the show, and it's you. It's 135 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: usually that was directed to Cheryl McCollum. Okay, you're not 136 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:37,839 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum. Cheryl, jump in. Here's the deal, Nancy. The 137 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,199 Speaker 1: now one one call is a money treat for the prosecution. 138 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:45,559 Speaker 1: No less than nine times he uses the word I. 139 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: I had a dream. I turned on the light. I 140 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: had blood all over me. I didn't want to go nearer. 141 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: I was afraid. I think I did it. I was 142 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: afraid to touch her. That's a great husband. That's the 143 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: either bleeding dad. He goes, I was afraid to touch her, 144 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 1: but Nancy, he of her, asked for help for her. 145 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:05,959 Speaker 1: He never asked for an ambulance. He never asked them 146 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: to hurry. No concerns for her. He simply says, oh, yes, 147 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: she's down on the floor. She he doesn't save her name. 148 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,319 Speaker 1: He's not upset. He's very calm while he's describing the 149 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: dream and the bloody knife and dry blood all over him, 150 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: and dry blood is going to come back to biting. 151 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 1: He waited, He waited before he made that call. The 152 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: blood had time to draw. Okay, Dr Bober, you patiently 153 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: stood by while I mangled and destroyed the names of 154 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: the drugs in coorse Satan. Okay, what are they? I'm 155 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: going to write him out fanatically like I learned in 156 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: second grade. It's go ahead. Well, why what did you 157 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: have to say it so fast? Clara faram paneramin is 158 00:09:53,440 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: pheramine fin pH m like fin fin yeshs Clara Ferra 159 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,559 Speaker 1: mean and that one amine and the other one is 160 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: dextro correct, exactly perfect. I can't believe I got one right. 161 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: Hold write it down, Cheryl, because we're gonna be using 162 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:17,959 Speaker 1: this a lot. Dex stro men nor then okay, I 163 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 1: think and dextrothorpan is the cough suppressant, and clara famine 164 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: is an anahistamine. You know, why is it, Cheryl, that 165 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: when men get a cold, somehow the wife ends up 166 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: dead on the floor. And that way is that? You know, 167 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 1: when I get a cold, I just blow my nose 168 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,959 Speaker 1: and keep going. But the wife ends up dead on 169 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:44,599 Speaker 1: the floor or the child. It's always the wife of 170 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: the child. You don't really hear of women chugging Cora 171 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: Seden then going on a killing spree. What's the deal, Cheryl? 172 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: Favorite killing spree that they can't remember. He just thinks 173 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: he did it. He's not sure he did it, he 174 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: just thinks he did it. Dr Bober, what would you say? 175 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: You mentioned voluntary consumption of drugs or alcohol? And you're 176 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: so right. You know, you know a lot about the 177 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:13,559 Speaker 1: law for being an m D slash psychiatrist, But voluntary 178 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: consumption of drugs or alcohol is not a defense unless 179 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 1: common toase. And if you're common TOAs, you can't commit 180 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 1: a murder anyway. So that means we we normally associate 181 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: that with going to a bar and getting high as 182 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 1: a kite, getting a snootful, as we say in making 183 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: and getting in your car and mowing somebody down or 184 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: having a crash. Voluntary use of drugs or alcohol is 185 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: not a defense under the law. If it was, everybody 186 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: in the jail house would be raising their hands saying 187 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: I was drunk or I was high right now, and 188 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: then all be allowed out. But what about in voluntary 189 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: consumption of drugs or alcohol? Dr? Bober? Involuntary? What would 190 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: that constitute? What would be involuntary consumption? Well, involuntary consumption 191 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: would be either a prescribed by a doctor or be 192 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 1: using a drug that's even over the counter and having 193 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: what we call an idiosyncratic or some odd reaction to 194 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,559 Speaker 1: the drug. But the fact that the nine one one 195 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:12,199 Speaker 1: calls and then he states in this call that he 196 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 1: used it to feel good or to get high. I'm paraphrasing, uh, 197 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: that is going to hurt the defense because it seems 198 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: like he was using it for recreational purposes and not 199 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: therapeutic purposes. With me is doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrists 200 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 1: out of Florida, and Cheryl McCollum director of the Cold 201 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: Case Institute. You know, guys, you know he's getting lost 202 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: in the sauce. Is the the woman? The wife Lauren. 203 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: The night before, she was posting a Facebook video of 204 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:47,719 Speaker 1: a candle she sold candles for since s C E 205 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: S C A N T S Y you know, um 206 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,199 Speaker 1: and all of her friends saw it. She was in 207 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: perfectly good spirits. P Well taught to her on the 208 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,319 Speaker 1: phone late the night before. Everything was fine. They'd only 209 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 1: been married since November. And this guy, Um Cheryl attended 210 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:16,439 Speaker 1: Clear Creek Baptist Bible College in Kentucky. I'm I'm remembering 211 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: that off the top of my head. Where he studied 212 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,959 Speaker 1: evangelism and missions work. She was a Sunday school teacher. 213 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: I don't know how that factors into this, if at all, 214 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: but I know that he was working for a lawn service. Hey, 215 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with that. I cut plenty of lawns myself. 216 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,839 Speaker 1: But why did he go to all that study and 217 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: he's out raking people's yard? Why isn't he? I mean, 218 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: what happened? Did he not finish? Did he drop out? 219 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 1: Was he kicked out? Did he crack under the stress? 220 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,599 Speaker 1: What what happened? I mean? There's so many questions I have. 221 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 1: Charl would go on, I have a top of questions 222 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: to Nancy. But I'm gonna go back to that now. 223 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: And when one call again where he goes into great 224 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,959 Speaker 1: detail describing the night. It's got blood all over it, 225 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:08,559 Speaker 1: it's on the bed. He never described her having blood 226 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: all over her. Oh, it's all about him. I've got 227 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: blood on me boo hoo, and I'm afraid to touch her. Guys, 228 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: listen to what the judge said. He has been in 229 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: court in the last hours, and the judge gives a 230 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: warning you are mad youself on account of the murder. Sir, 231 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: you can receive it dat anly our life about the 232 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: possibility and parole. Now, your name is court be is 233 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: going to be seption murders going fit at nine o'clock. 234 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: Dr Bober, You're right again. We see the defense shaping 235 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: up right now. Listen to what the defense attorneys had 236 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: to say. They couldn't wait to get down the courthouse 237 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: steps before they issue a statement. Listen, we have to 238 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: ask everybody to wiser of judgment in this particular case 239 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: until we're able to develop more. There's there's a lot 240 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: to this story. I believe that will be told in 241 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: the future. Dr Daniel Bober Cheryl McCullum, we're on it 242 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: and now on crime stories. She said that they brought 243 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: her to Happy Value because she was misbehaving and they 244 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: tied her to the truck and they pulled there. It 245 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: was pretty said, I was crying and it was hurt 246 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: to pick a daily pain. Are you hiring? Do you 247 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: know where to post your job to find the very 248 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: best candidates? 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And now we head north to Albion. 266 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: A ten year old little on dragged by a rope 267 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 1: attached to a car. What beaten and starved and dragged 268 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: with a rope attached to a car a ten year 269 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 1: old little girl? You know it's enough to make me 270 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: run out of this studio, get in my car and 271 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: raise to the toyins to check on them this very minute. 272 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 1: My children are about to turn ten. They still believe 273 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 1: in the tooth Fairy, they believe in Santa Claus, and 274 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 1: they believe in everything good in this world. To imagine 275 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 1: beating and starving a ten year old little girl, tying 276 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: a rope around her and dragging her with a car. 277 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: And guess who was at the other end of that rope. 278 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 1: Guess who was at the other end of the rope 279 00:17:54,640 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: Her mother, Leslie and Raider, a thirty four year old 280 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: woman and her boyfriend Gary Bubis Jr. Thirty seven, his 281 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 1: sister and his sister's boyfriend reportedly they beat the girl, 282 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 1: starved her for months there in Albion, and then would 283 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:23,359 Speaker 1: attach four backpacks on her and drag her by a 284 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: car attached with a rope. Okay, Dr Bethany, before I 285 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 1: go to our investigative reporter, Karmen Koyevan down, what and 286 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 1: the hey is going on? I mean, how do you 287 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 1: even come up with a diabolical plan like that, much 288 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: less inflicted on a child? And it's the mother. I 289 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: think she should go straight to the penitentiary and stay there. 290 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: I agree, Nancy. Did you see these people's mug shots? 291 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: They looked like they were high, and I think that 292 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 1: was happening. It's hard for me to even analyze this 293 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: because it's so year and so horrific, and the sadism 294 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: and the torture is so extreme that I almost feel 295 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: silly analyzing it. But but to best of my knowledge, 296 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: what I think happened is that these four were living 297 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,399 Speaker 1: in some sort of a crack house. I think they 298 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: were all methanthenamine addicts. I can tell by looking at 299 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: their faces. If you look at the mug shots, they 300 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: have like red um Swore's red pock marks. Their pupils 301 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: are dilated, their eyes are huge. And you know with 302 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: meth addicts, they take one thing and they get obsessed 303 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: with it. Give them a shovel and they will dig 304 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 1: to China. Give them a piece of tape, they will 305 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 1: they will tape up their entire house. They are like 306 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 1: a dog with a bone. It is the strangest thing. 307 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 1: And then they push the envelope towards excitement, just like 308 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: they they need that that surge of dopamine in the 309 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: brain that comes from the um, that that activates olympic 310 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: system in the brain, and they keep taking more and 311 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,199 Speaker 1: more drugs. I think the torture of this four ten 312 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: year old little girl was in some way used to 313 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 1: activate even more excitement. I know that sounds so perverse, 314 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 1: but sada sadism. One of the motivations behind sadism is 315 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 1: to reduce sexual and psychological excitement. And they got got 316 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: obsessed with her, you know, Nancy, As you said earlier, 317 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 1: even when they fed her a meal, they doused it 318 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: with hot sauce. Um. I think of them dragging this 319 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: little girl behind a car, and I trust it makes 320 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 1: me feel like I won't be able to sleep. I 321 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: can't imagine the trauma and the PTSD this little girl 322 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 1: is going to have. Is she ever going to be 323 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: able to trust anybody? Is she going to be able 324 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,360 Speaker 1: to have appropriate attachments? Is she going to be able 325 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: to concentrate in school? What physical injuries were inflicted on her? 326 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: I would really be interested to know that, Like as 327 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: she I'm sure she's receiving appropriate medical care. I would 328 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: think at this point she's going to need to be 329 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: in some very safe environment for at least a couple 330 00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: of years where she doesn't have any responsibilities, schooling or otherwise, 331 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 1: where she just has a chance to recover. According to sheriffs, 332 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: the little girl was only fed once a day if that, 333 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: and when she was fed, like Dr Bethany says, they 334 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:20,120 Speaker 1: would cover the meal and hot sauce. She would run 335 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 1: for the adults amusement, say Sheriff's. When she didn't go 336 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 1: fast enough, they would bump her physically with the car 337 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: they were following her in, or tie her to it 338 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,479 Speaker 1: with a rope and make her run faster, say police. 339 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: Before making her run, they would load her up with 340 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 1: heavy backpacks, two strapped to each sold shoulder, one on 341 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: her back, and one on her front. They made her 342 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: stay outside with no water or a bathroom and beat 343 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: her if she did not quote fall in line. All 344 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: this abuse was passed off as punishment and discipline. I 345 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 1: just can't imagine what the girl lived through out to 346 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: investigative reporter joining us karmenkoy E van down, how did 347 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: this go without being discovered? Carmen, You're living in a 348 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 1: remote area, that's one of them, and people are not 349 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 1: paying attention to their surroundings. I mean, some of the 350 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: practices that they used on her was just so offensive. 351 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: And some of the reasons that they would, in air 352 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 1: quotes punish her and use these discipline techniques is because 353 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 1: she was trying to get food. That was basically it. 354 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: They gave her no water, access, bathroom, axis was limited, 355 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 1: if at all, and it became a situation where it 356 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 1: was absolutely horrendous. She had to escape to a neighbor's 357 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 1: house in order for her to be saved. But she 358 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 1: wasn't the only one that was affected by this. There 359 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:48,359 Speaker 1: were other children in the house. It was a three 360 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: year old that was found with was scalded with hot water. 361 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: But as the doctor said, she was the target because 362 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: there were other children there, but she was the one 363 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: that they zeroed in on, and it was some sort 364 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 1: of sick, twisted plot that they had against her, you know, 365 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,959 Speaker 1: according to the sheriffs they still quote can't wrap their 366 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 1: brains around it. What I don't understand, Cheryl McCollum, the 367 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 1: girl's mother is the only one facing child abuse charges. 368 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,400 Speaker 1: She's been charged with endangering the welfare of a child. 369 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: To me, when you drag a person by a rope 370 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:24,400 Speaker 1: with your car for your fund, for your entertainment, that's 371 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:28,120 Speaker 1: an aggravated assault. They would hit her with the car 372 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 1: to make her run faster when she was running in front, 373 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:37,640 Speaker 1: starving her, beating her. How How is this simply endangering 374 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: the welfare of a child. Why wasn't a charge of 375 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 1: aggravated assault or even attempted murder at it? And why 376 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: is just the mother charged? Cheryl, That's what I was 377 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 1: gonna say. Nancy's clearly aggravated assault. It's clearly attempted murder. Again, 378 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: You've got if you look at the crime seing photographs 379 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: of this house, Nancy, there is no evidence any oldren 380 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: lived there. There are no toys, there's no clicyicle. There's 381 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: no balls, there's nothing. You would never know that a 382 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 1: three and ten and twelve year older in that house. 383 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 1: And what I am hoping is the twelve year old 384 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: becomes the best witness and charges are added. The ten 385 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: year old girl tied to a car by a rope 386 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: and dragged down dirt roads Albion, New York along with 387 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: her boyfriend. You know that's another thing, Cheryl. You and 388 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: I have talked about this a million times. I have 389 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: prosecuted child abust beating, cigarette burns, rapes, uh, child molestation, starving, 390 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: you name it, and the mother almost always sided with 391 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 1: the husband or the boyfriend. What why? I don't get it, Cheryl. 392 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you it's the devil. Anybody that would 393 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: harm a child needs to go to prison. But a 394 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 1: mama that would sit by and watch it and participate, Hale, 395 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: ain't good enough. You know what, Cheryl? You take the 396 00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,959 Speaker 1: words out of my mouth. Dr Bethany help me out. 397 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 1: Why why do women go along with boyfriends, husband's live 398 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: ins users and let their children be abused? Do not 399 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: pass it off as drugs? Okay? So there's this complex 400 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:21,919 Speaker 1: psychology where often the the boyfriend or the husband wants 401 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 1: the wife or the mom all to himself. He resents 402 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: the children as intruders into the relationship, and then the 403 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: mother is so desperate for the attachment to the man 404 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,640 Speaker 1: that she prioritizes that over the attachment to the children. 405 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 1: Sometimes there's another layer where the boyfriend may have some 406 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: sexual interest in the children, and so the mother hands 407 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: the child over sort of as a favor or a 408 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 1: gift to her boyfriend. Often that the psychology of child 409 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: abuse the and the other layer is seeing the child 410 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: as being greedy for having needs. So any need, you know, 411 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:02,479 Speaker 1: for food, prosustenance, for ner nourishment, for for clothing. Uh, 412 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: The adults and the household resent that child for having needs, 413 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 1: and then they distort and twist the needs into greediness. 414 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: So so so, say this ten year old little girl, 415 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 1: she had to sneak to get food, and then they 416 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 1: would punish her for it. So they probably twisted that 417 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: into so she's such a greedy little pig, We're gonna 418 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,360 Speaker 1: have to punish her for this. I've heard stories where 419 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,119 Speaker 1: adults have put chains on the refrigerator just so the 420 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 1: children cannot open the refrigerator door, because they feel the 421 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: child is so unconditionally bad for having needs. And then 422 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: the other layer, Nancy, is that in these these twisted, sick, 423 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: perverse households, the adults often choose one child to love 424 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 1: and one child to hate. Remember that story many years 425 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 1: ago where there was a household with multiple children and 426 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: one of the boys was chained to the coffee table 427 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: and starved while the other children were sitting at the 428 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 1: table and they were fed good meals. I see this 429 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 1: in the news and again and again. In my practice, 430 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: I have patients who come in and their parents targeted 431 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 1: them and then showed favoritism towards the other children. So 432 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: that's a part of this complex psychology. And I think 433 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 1: the final factor is that the children are used as 434 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: pawns in marital arguments. So you know, if if the 435 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 1: let's say, if the mother loves the child, then that 436 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: the father or the boyfriend will abuse the child in 437 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 1: order to get back at the mother, and then the 438 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: mother tolerates that. Back to Carmen coy E van Down, 439 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: what happens now? Please tell me there is a chance 440 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: that these charges are going to be upgraded on all 441 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 1: of the perpetrators. Right now, the only charges that are 442 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: getting is second degree charges on the accomplices. The mother 443 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: is the only one facing child abuse charges. The good 444 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 1: thing if the children are currently all living now with relatives, 445 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:50,880 Speaker 1: and as you mentioned, we're hoping that they're getting their 446 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: proper medical care that they need at this moments based 447 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: in time. But at this moment, there is no sight 448 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: of the fact that there's going to be aggravated assault 449 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: or any other types of charges that are going to 450 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:06,679 Speaker 1: be elevated to the remaining three accomplices. We will continue 451 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: with our coverage of our other stories, but right now 452 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: a missing teen alert. Canton police searching for this girl 453 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: last seen at her residence. She has now been missing 454 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: for six days. Maci ol Chesky last scene eight a m. 455 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:30,640 Speaker 1: Thursday morning, leaving her home in Canton. She is believed 456 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: to have been driving the car she just got, a 457 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: two thousand two hund Santa Fe. She's five ft five 458 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: hundred thirty pounds, green eyes, blonde hair, according to Canton Police, 459 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: Help us find Macy. Joining right now from crime online 460 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: dot Com investigative reporter Lee eagerly give me the background. Okay, 461 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: this little girl, she's only sixteen years old. Her family 462 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: is describing her as very sweet since if she doesn't. Really, 463 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: she's a homebody. She likes to hang out with her 464 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: little brother and sister after school on weekends. She's a 465 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 1: referee for a youth soccer team. Um, they're frantic for answers. 466 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: She has ties to Florida. Her grandparents lived there. I 467 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: believe it's in Coral Beach, Florida. Um, she has a 468 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,239 Speaker 1: few friends there that she knows. Nobody has seen her. 469 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 1: There's no sightings, no confirmed sightings whatsoever. Um, no activity 470 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: on her cell phone, no activity on her bank card. 471 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: It's just like she's vanished. Um. The family is just 472 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: desperate for answers. They don't know where to turn. This 473 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: little girl a junior at Cherokee High School. Uh, I'm 474 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: taking a look at her right now. She's just absolutely beautiful. 475 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: Macy o Shreky last seen eight a m. Thursday morning. 476 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: I'm sure her parents think she's headed to school. What 477 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: happened to Macy. She's never been in any trouble before. 478 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: She is not responding to cell phone calls. We don't 479 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: know if the cell phone has been lost or destroyed. 480 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: If you have any information on the whereabouts of Macy, 481 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: dials seven seven zero, seven to zero three repeat seven 482 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: seven zero seven to zero four eight eight three. You 483 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: work your entire life to help your children, right, You 484 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: go to work when you don't feel like it. You 485 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: put your feet on the ground and rush to get 486 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: them ready for school. Urge them along with homework activities. 487 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: You name it. Pour all your love, all your hopes, 488 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: all your dreams into your children. That's what parents do, right. 489 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: And then one day they make it. They make it 490 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: too their dream school parents thinking they're giving their children 491 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: what they may never have had a higher education, a 492 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: chance to be successful, which so many of us translate 493 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: to happy. Can you imagine these parents grief when they 494 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: send their son away to Penn State. He's a smart boy, 495 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: all a's athlete, the works, the golden boy, the apple 496 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 1: of their eye. And he's dead after a drunken frat 497 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 1: party where at nearly eighteen hours pass with him lying 498 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: in a stupor in the floor, where people step over him, 499 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 1: punch him, hide his body, basically waiting for him to die. 500 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: When one boy says, let's call nine, when one he 501 00:31:55,440 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 1: gets roughed up and kicked out. Imagine this life could 502 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: have been saved if they had just called nine, one one. 503 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: They had twelve to eighteen hours to do it. In 504 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 1: a stunning twist, in the last hours, the Penn State 505 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: frat boys have been cleared a felony charges in the 506 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: death of a teen boy found dead after a drunken 507 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:30,239 Speaker 1: hazing ritual. Repeat. The frat boys have been cleared let 508 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 1: off the hook on felony charges after this teen boy 509 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 1: is found dead and it's on surveillance video how they 510 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: party into the night twelve eighteen hours around his comma 511 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: toase body. I'm Yancy Grace. This is crime stories, and 512 00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 1: maybe I'm projecting. Yeah, But when my children finally make 513 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 1: it and they get into a college, God willing only 514 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: for me to get a call like this and then 515 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 1: they're let off the hook. I cannot imagine what the 516 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: Piazza family is going through right now. Joining me. Dr 517 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, renowned psychologists joining us from l A. Cheryl McCullum, 518 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: director of the Cold Case Institute, also with the investigative 519 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 1: reporter Carmen koyevn Down. Carmen, thank you so much for 520 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: being with us. Please let's start at the beginning. What 521 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: happened that night in that fraternity house, Well, that evening 522 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: they were supposed to be standing up to pledge that evening, 523 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: and in short, when the gentleman that decided to want 524 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: to be a part of the fraternity, Piazza being one 525 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: of them, they were to drink heavily. They fed them wine, vodka, 526 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,240 Speaker 1: beer after a ceremony to mark their decision to pledge 527 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: in the organization. Part of that included running them through 528 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 1: speed drinking games and things of that nature, and in 529 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 1: the process they drained a very large bottle of vodka. 530 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 1: There were security video that was recording all of this 531 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,759 Speaker 1: while this was happening. As you know, Piazza was an 532 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:31,240 Speaker 1: engineering student, sophomore from New Jersey, and he was appeared 533 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 1: to be already intoxicated. They knew this by eleven o'clock. 534 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 1: They had already put him in the couch, they let 535 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,720 Speaker 1: him sleep. In fact, they had put some heavy weights 536 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 1: on him in order for him not to roll over. 537 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: And quite a minute, wait a minute, so he was 538 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 1: already this teen boy was already had been had already 539 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,320 Speaker 1: been forced to quote run the gauntlet, and what I 540 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 1: mean by that it's a speed drinking game where they 541 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: had to drain a bottle of vodka. Security security video 542 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:09,800 Speaker 1: recorded the teen boy Pianza, engineering student from Lebanon, New Jersey, 543 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,879 Speaker 1: led to a couch at eleven o'clock. Just minutes later, 544 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 1: he falls head first down a set of basement stairs. 545 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:27,359 Speaker 1: He fell head first down wooden stairs and what did 546 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 1: they do? They bring him back up this time he's carried. 547 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 1: He is unconscious for hour after hour after hour. They 548 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 1: continue to tend let me say to their hurt for him, 549 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 1: pouring liquid on him, booze, strapping on a loaded backpack 550 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 1: to his chest to keep him from rolling over and 551 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: choking on his own vomit. By the early morning hours, 552 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 1: the boys pictured stumbling from one cow to other areas. 553 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 1: He can't really stand up. He falls into one door, 554 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: then he falls onto phase four first, a stone floor. 555 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:14,359 Speaker 1: Nobody does a thing. He ends up falling back down 556 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: the stairs to the basement. He's again carried back upstairs. 557 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:27,320 Speaker 1: At this point they finally call an ambulance. Finally, I 558 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:32,320 Speaker 1: don't know how many hours had actually passed. Then the 559 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 1: cover up what happened then Carmen, After the authorities had 560 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 1: arrived on the scene and they had taken him to 561 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,840 Speaker 1: the hospital, where he was soon pronounced dead. They try 562 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:48,400 Speaker 1: to figure out and put an assess the situation and arguments. 563 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 1: The defense arguments state that the jury should have considered 564 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 1: other facts, facts that led to some of these dismissals 565 00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: of charges. Believe it or not, as far as they know, 566 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: they didn't even think that anybody died. They didn't think 567 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: anybody was responsible for anything, that it was just poor 568 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 1: laps and judgment. They say that the evidence that recorded 569 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:13,799 Speaker 1: this dress was unforeseeable, and in addition to that, they 570 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,840 Speaker 1: had heart over and over again that the accompliccence is 571 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:18,359 Speaker 1: a matter of law. That they didn't think that there 572 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 1: was anything wrong with what was going on. How can 573 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:27,320 Speaker 1: you not know something's wrong, Cheryl McCollum. Timothy tim Piazza 574 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 1: had had severe head trauma according to the hospital, and 575 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:38,840 Speaker 1: a shattered spleen. He died of traumatic brain injury, Cheryl. 576 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,920 Speaker 1: They knew something was terribly wrong, Nancy, when they flashed 577 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:44,799 Speaker 1: water in his face and he wouldn't wake up, when 578 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: they lifted his arm and it dropped back down, when 579 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 1: they put a weight on him so he wouldn't keep 580 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,760 Speaker 1: rolling off the sofa and choked on his own vomit. 581 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,719 Speaker 1: They knew, they knew something was wrong. They slapped that 582 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 1: child in the face, repeatedly trying to wake him up. 583 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: They tried to regress, They hid alcohol, They covered this 584 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 1: crime up. They even repurchsed on their phone. You know, 585 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 1: head injuries and vomit and what's wrong with this guy 586 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,840 Speaker 1: who's cold to the touch. They knew and they did nothing. 587 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 1: They did nothing to help him at all. Wait a minute, 588 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,719 Speaker 1: what did they research during this time? Head injuries? What else? 589 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum. If he was cold to the touch and 590 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: you know, extensive vomiting, they researched what could be going 591 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,560 Speaker 1: on with this guy? The problem is they never called 592 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,880 Speaker 1: for help. The very people that could help them, they 593 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: didn't call. They didn't want any authorities there. Dr Bethany 594 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 1: Marshall's psychologists joining me out of l A. When you 595 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:47,360 Speaker 1: tie a backpack, a loaded backpack to somebody's chest to 596 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 1: keep them from rolling over and choking on their own 597 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,279 Speaker 1: vomit um, how can you do that and not know 598 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 1: something's horribly wrong? I so agree with you, Nancy. These 599 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 1: boys were co enough to make a very sophisticated plan. 600 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 1: They carried him up the stairs twice. They weighed him 601 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,719 Speaker 1: down with a backpack so that he wouldn't vomit Um 602 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 1: as the crime scene reporter or the reporter, and Sary 603 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,200 Speaker 1: McCollum was saying that they did these searches on their phone. 604 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,440 Speaker 1: These boys were sober, Nancy, and so I think we 605 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 1: need to reframe our thinking about this entire incident. We're 606 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 1: thinking of it as a hazing. I don't think that 607 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 1: this as a hazing at all. I think of this 608 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:32,359 Speaker 1: as a cover up for a brutal attack. And um, 609 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:34,719 Speaker 1: as a psychoanalyst, I try to think about what is 610 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 1: the group psychology behind an attack like this. And usually 611 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 1: with with men or or boys, you have one very 612 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: strong ringleader, either like the sociopath or a very domineering 613 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,640 Speaker 1: person who gets all the other young men to rally 614 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 1: around him and want to be just like him, and 615 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,520 Speaker 1: pretty soon there's this powerful group psychology whether where they're 616 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 1: all engaging in the attack to together. And you know 617 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:02,799 Speaker 1: the other thing about this school, I was reading up 618 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 1: on this the other day that these of fraternities are 619 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,359 Speaker 1: considered independent from the school. That's what the school is saying, 620 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,400 Speaker 1: that these these fraternities stand on their own, so the 621 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,239 Speaker 1: school is not responsible. According to the school, however, a 622 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,719 Speaker 1: part of the school program is that that that they 623 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,800 Speaker 1: they in their school curriculum. They let these students have 624 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 1: time away from classes to pledge to go through those 625 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:30,399 Speaker 1: hazing rituals. So in a sense, the school is coluding 626 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,920 Speaker 1: with these brutal attacks. There was one report where in 627 00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:36,640 Speaker 1: one of the sororities, a group of girls took two 628 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:40,719 Speaker 1: girls behind a building, kicked them, beat them, punched them, 629 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,840 Speaker 1: stepped on their heads and their necks. So this is 630 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 1: not hazing, Nancy, this is brutality, This is envy, this 631 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 1: is attacks, and the school is sort of looking the 632 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,879 Speaker 1: other way while all of this takes place right next 633 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 1: to their campus. You know, Dr bethany Um, I was 634 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:02,640 Speaker 1: lucky in college. I was independent for two years of 635 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 1: college and was attached to a sorority for two years 636 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:11,360 Speaker 1: of college. And don't laugh at me, ladies, Okay, but 637 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,360 Speaker 1: what my sorority did to me. They sent me uh cards, 638 00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:20,920 Speaker 1: when I had tests, They sent me violence. They um 639 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:23,520 Speaker 1: surprised me at six o'clock in the morning with all 640 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:25,560 Speaker 1: the pledges and took us out to a pancake breakfast. 641 00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:32,200 Speaker 1: That's what they did. It was fun. And I had 642 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,600 Speaker 1: gone away to college and did not know one person 643 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 1: except a boy that parents worked a farm near our 644 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 1: place in Making, Georgia, and he lived across campus. I 645 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,839 Speaker 1: knew not a soul, and these girls were so nice 646 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:53,759 Speaker 1: to me. Um it was a pie. And for those 647 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 1: two years I was friends with them and they could 648 00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,120 Speaker 1: not have been nicer to me. For two years was 649 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:04,239 Speaker 1: independent worked in the library at my alma Motomers University. 650 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 1: And you know that's when Bethany, as you know very well, 651 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:13,400 Speaker 1: I was with Keith, my fiance that was then murdered. 652 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,399 Speaker 1: So I got to see both sides of college life. 653 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 1: But I never saw anything at all like this. I 654 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,360 Speaker 1: don't know why we keep causing calling it a hazing ritual, 655 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:30,279 Speaker 1: because Bethany, Cheryl Carmen, Carmen, you already know all this. 656 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:35,040 Speaker 1: One of the fraternity brothers is shown on tape examining Piazza, 657 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,680 Speaker 1: making animated gesture. Then he told the grandeur he saw 658 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,400 Speaker 1: a bruise on Tim's chest and that Tim was thrashing 659 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,640 Speaker 1: and making weird movements. He told all the guys there 660 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:50,800 Speaker 1: Tim needs helping his medical care. That's when other members 661 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,560 Speaker 1: shoved him and told him to get out. He then 662 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,480 Speaker 1: goes to the vice president, who also told him to 663 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:01,240 Speaker 1: get out. One frattorney member actually said a group message 664 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,440 Speaker 1: saying tim might actually be a problem. He fell fourteen 665 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:10,320 Speaker 1: ft down a flight of stairs, hair first, going to 666 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:15,680 Speaker 1: need help. They slap him in the face. One brother 667 00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 1: tackles another onto the couch and lands on top of him, 668 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:22,640 Speaker 1: who's still laying there unconscious. He starts vomiting, which is 669 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,440 Speaker 1: a very bad stage when you start vomiting while you're 670 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 1: in a coma, or when you're common toast. At about 671 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,320 Speaker 1: one thirty a m. That's when they attached the backpack 672 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:36,320 Speaker 1: to him. He rolls off the couch, so they slam 673 00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,319 Speaker 1: him body slam him on the couch, and minutes later 674 00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:44,080 Speaker 1: he put pushes his right hand. A brother pushes his 675 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:48,120 Speaker 1: right hand down on Piazza's abdomen. He rolls to the floor. 676 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,920 Speaker 1: His legs are moving. He tries to get to his feet. 677 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:54,800 Speaker 1: The backpack comes off, but he falls back and he 678 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,759 Speaker 1: hits his head on the floor again. He's on the 679 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:03,280 Speaker 1: floor in a fee total position. He gets on his knees, 680 00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:08,280 Speaker 1: grabbing his abdomen. He tries to stand up but falls 681 00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:13,400 Speaker 1: face down onto the floor again. He staggers into the lobby, 682 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,840 Speaker 1: falls headfirst into an iron railing, landing on a stone floor. 683 00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:22,440 Speaker 1: He tries to get out the front door. He spends 684 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,080 Speaker 1: about six minutes on his knees with his head in 685 00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:29,720 Speaker 1: his hands. He rolls to his side, clutching his stomach. 686 00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:34,920 Speaker 1: A forensic pathologist estimates his blood alcohol between point one 687 00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:39,239 Speaker 1: nine and point two four for attorney. Brothers are seen 688 00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:45,720 Speaker 1: on surveillance video stepping over his body lying in the floor, 689 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 1: stepping over him, coming in and out. They walk all 690 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,399 Speaker 1: around him. Piazza tries again to stand, He falls down 691 00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:59,320 Speaker 1: three steps and the brothers leave him on the floor. 692 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:05,319 Speaker 1: A fellow pledge videotapes him before leaving the house. Why 693 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:13,480 Speaker 1: he keeps falling every time he stands up. It's just heartbreaking. 694 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:18,520 Speaker 1: He's trying to get out. Then a brother searches his 695 00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:23,000 Speaker 1: cell phone for falling asleep after head injury, cold extremities 696 00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:29,040 Speaker 1: in drunk person, and other searches. They call at ten 697 00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:35,400 Speaker 1: a m. It's almost lunchtime. This has been going on 698 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:40,320 Speaker 1: since early the night before. The fraternity president then directs 699 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:46,279 Speaker 1: a member to get rid of any evidence. Timothy is 700 00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:51,800 Speaker 1: pronounced dead at Hershey Medical Center from skull fracture, shattered spleen, 701 00:45:52,920 --> 00:46:00,120 Speaker 1: abdomen filled with blood. The pathologist says his head and 702 00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:05,000 Speaker 1: stomach injuries would have been very, very painful, and the 703 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,560 Speaker 1: spleen injury was likely made worse by the jostling and 704 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:13,880 Speaker 1: moving and sitting on him in the last hours. A 705 00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:21,000 Speaker 1: judge throws out the charges to Carmen Koya van Down, 706 00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:26,319 Speaker 1: investigative reporter, Is there any way the judge's decision can 707 00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:30,840 Speaker 1: be appealed? It is my understanding that it could be appealed. However, 708 00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,360 Speaker 1: at this moment there have been no e motions in 709 00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,560 Speaker 1: making that happen. I'm just sick about it. Dr Bethany Marshall. 710 00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:40,800 Speaker 1: What about the parents? I mean, I always thought I 711 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,440 Speaker 1: knew it all about grief and loss, having lost my 712 00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:49,600 Speaker 1: fiance and then my father. But your child and they 713 00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:52,480 Speaker 1: won't recover from this, you know, you know, because of 714 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,520 Speaker 1: the twins. When you have a child, you have a baby, 715 00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:59,680 Speaker 1: you have a child, You raised that child. Your whole 716 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,680 Speaker 1: life is devoted to the protection and the safety of 717 00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:06,560 Speaker 1: that child. The minute that child is born. It's an 718 00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,400 Speaker 1: indescribable feeling, you know. I have new moms come to 719 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:13,040 Speaker 1: my practice and they tell me stories that are heart wrenching. 720 00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:17,160 Speaker 1: They have these healthy, lovely, wonderful babies, and they say, 721 00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:19,560 Speaker 1: you know, I'm afraid to take my child outside. What 722 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,160 Speaker 1: if the child gets kidnapped? I'm afraid to send my 723 00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,760 Speaker 1: child to school. Um, what what if the child gets molested? 724 00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:28,520 Speaker 1: And I have to normalize these feelings for them, because 725 00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,400 Speaker 1: when you're a parent, when you're a mom, white a minute, 726 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:33,560 Speaker 1: white a minute, white a minute. What's wrong with that? 727 00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,400 Speaker 1: There's nothing wrong. That's what I'm saying. I have to 728 00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:40,920 Speaker 1: normalize these things. Those feelings aren't normal. Are normal that 729 00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,879 Speaker 1: I'm saying. It's it's okay because I did not take 730 00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:45,480 Speaker 1: mine out. I would even take him the church till 731 00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:47,920 Speaker 1: they were almost two years I understand that, Nancy. That's 732 00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,719 Speaker 1: what I'm saying. I was afraid either a somebody would 733 00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:55,640 Speaker 1: breathe on them or be they kidnapped. And Nancy, you 734 00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:58,600 Speaker 1: and I were trying back to geryld don't say a word, 735 00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,799 Speaker 1: not a word. M So can you imagine when your 736 00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:05,000 Speaker 1: worst fear actually comes true? How how devastating that is. 737 00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:08,200 Speaker 1: And it's not just the brutality the attack, but the 738 00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:10,440 Speaker 1: fact that these boys are going to roam free in 739 00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:13,320 Speaker 1: the world, and these parents will never have the future 740 00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:15,960 Speaker 1: that they hoped for for with with his child. They'll 741 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,720 Speaker 1: never see him get married, they'll never see him establish 742 00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:21,200 Speaker 1: his career, they won't have him in their old age. 743 00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:23,520 Speaker 1: And I just keep going back to the fact of 744 00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,640 Speaker 1: the brutality of the attack. I cannot get that out 745 00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:29,239 Speaker 1: of my mind. Nancy. If this was in the inner 746 00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,759 Speaker 1: city and a group of black youth, that judge would 747 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:36,160 Speaker 1: not have removed the felony charges. If this was in 748 00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:42,200 Speaker 1: any other setting other than privileged, wealthy boys and a fraternity, 749 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,759 Speaker 1: these guys would be in jail and they would never 750 00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:48,000 Speaker 1: get out. We have to call this what it is. 751 00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:52,920 Speaker 1: It's an envious, homicidal, rageful attack. It is not a hazing. 752 00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:55,799 Speaker 1: I think we need to even drop that language altogether. 753 00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:57,840 Speaker 1: I wish the reporters would drop it. I wish the 754 00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:01,840 Speaker 1: school would drop it, because the language camouflages the reality 755 00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,840 Speaker 1: of what happened. And the other concern that I that 756 00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,920 Speaker 1: nobody's bringing up, that I'm looking at carefully from an 757 00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:11,239 Speaker 1: outsider's perspective, is the judge's response to this. You know, 758 00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:15,399 Speaker 1: in fraternity you have people placed in different um places, right, 759 00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:18,320 Speaker 1: and in many cases this could be very well. The 760 00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:22,719 Speaker 1: alma mater of this particular judge. There is speculation that 761 00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:25,120 Speaker 1: there may be some sense of cover up. We need 762 00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:28,160 Speaker 1: to think about that as also a possibility. They are 763 00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:30,680 Speaker 1: brothers to protect each other, So we need to think 764 00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:35,240 Speaker 1: about all of these possibilities as to why something so clear, 765 00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:40,800 Speaker 1: so evident, it is captured on video and nobody and 766 00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:46,360 Speaker 1: they are throwing out the most waitful charges out the window. 767 00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:52,440 Speaker 1: First is District Court Judge Alan Sinclair. District Court Judge 768 00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:57,600 Speaker 1: Alan Sinclair, What Carmen, what do we know about? Not much? 769 00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:00,160 Speaker 1: And that's really what's interesting about it. A lot of 770 00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:02,919 Speaker 1: information has been circulating, but not much has been able 771 00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,239 Speaker 1: to be confirmed, which is very interesting. And that's really 772 00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:10,200 Speaker 1: where I started looking into and trying to identify what 773 00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:14,040 Speaker 1: is his relationship with this fraternity? Why would these things 774 00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:16,680 Speaker 1: be thrown out so quickly when you have evidence right 775 00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:18,239 Speaker 1: in front of you of what happened. Let me go 776 00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,840 Speaker 1: out to Cheryl McCollum. I mean, it's on video. What 777 00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:24,759 Speaker 1: more do they need? Cheryld not only jong video. I 778 00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:28,880 Speaker 1: go back to that text message that was where he 779 00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:32,160 Speaker 1: says the ASA might actually be a problem. He ends 780 00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:35,759 Speaker 1: that techns is saying going to need help. I don't 781 00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:38,160 Speaker 1: think he was talking about now. One morning I think 782 00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:41,160 Speaker 1: he was saying, gonna need help covering this up. Y'all 783 00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:43,440 Speaker 1: get over here, get rid of the alcohol, dressed this 784 00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:45,960 Speaker 1: guy back, get rid of the backpack. That's what I 785 00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:47,759 Speaker 1: think he was talking about. This is what I know 786 00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:52,320 Speaker 1: about a District court judge Allen Sinclair. He graduated in 787 00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:57,000 Speaker 1: nineties six from Shippensburg University. He had a be a 788 00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:02,160 Speaker 1: criminology at Indiana University of Pence Alvania. That's what I 789 00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:06,360 Speaker 1: know about him so far, but I'm sure there's a 790 00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:12,080 Speaker 1: lot more to know. District Court Judge Allen Sinclair tossing 791 00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:15,080 Speaker 1: out the most serious charges against a group of frat 792 00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:21,959 Speaker 1: brothers that let a boy die. God willing, it ain't 793 00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:27,160 Speaker 1: over yet. Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off, goodbye friend,