WEBVTT - AES Chief on the Transition to Net Zero 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:03.520 Hi, I'm Dana Perkins, and you're listening to Switch on 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:06.880 the b n F podcast. So today I speak with 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:11.399 Andres Glusky, CEO of a S Corporation, and he shares 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:15.480 his thoughts on innovation from an electrical power company's perspective. 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:20.640 Can batteries be peakers? Is green hydrogen overhyped? And what 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:23.200 has a S already done to bring their emissions down? 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:26.280 And what are they innovating one for the future, in 0:00:26.320 --> 0:00:29.680 particular in regard to their net zero target. If you'd 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:31.920 like to read some related b n F research, you 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:34.680 can go to the Bloomberg terminal at BENF Go or 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:36.839 to b NF dot com or a mobile app. Some 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:38.800 examples of things that might be of interest to you 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:41.680 include the corporate net zero state of play key trends 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:46.400 or the corporate pp A deal tracker from or our 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:51.720 first half energy storage market outlook, and lastly the Texas 0:00:51.720 --> 0:00:55.040 Power failure the supply story. As a reminder, B and 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:57.680 the F does not provide investment or strategy advice, and 0:00:57.800 --> 0:00:59.960 we have a complete disclaimer at the end of the show. 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:11.200 But now let's hear from Andres. Andres, thank you so 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:15.039 much for joining us on Switched. On today. Can you 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:18.000 tell me just a little bit about yourself and how 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:21.720 you got involved in the power sector. Well, Dana, first, 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:23.880 thanks for you very much for the invitation. It's a 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:27.000 real honor to be on this podcast. I got into 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:32.319 the electricity sector via telecoms. So I was in telecoms 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:36.360 in the nineties. I found it a fascinating time because 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:40.800 first you had digital networks, you had cellular networks, and 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:45.200 then you had internet service providers. So I was lucky 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:48.800 enough to be in the telecommunication sector in the nineties, 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:55.400 which really underwent tremendous transformation. So from telecoms, I got 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:59.720 into an electricity company. It was a multinational and that 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:03.640 multinational was based in Venezuela, where I'm from, and it 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:06.560 was bought by A S. And that's how I started 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:09.560 working for A S in the year two thousand. So 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:12.480 I find a lot of parallels between the sectors, between 0:02:12.639 --> 0:02:16.520 a telecom and the electricity sector. And I think what 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:21.280 we're experiencing today in the electricity sector is most similar 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:24.400 to what I lived in the nineties in the telecom sector. 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:27.800 So it's a fascinating time to be in the electric sector. 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:31.359 It's undergoing a transformation. The likes of which it hasn't 0:02:31.400 --> 0:02:33.720 had for a hundred years. Yes, so you're in this 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:37.079 super fast moving, rapidly changing space. And I bet when 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:39.760 you first got involved in the electricity sector it was 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:44.160 pretty box standard and then things seem to have well, 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:47.160 have changed quite a bit. So just reflecting back on 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:49.639 even just the time since you became CEO, So you've 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:54.440 been CEO for quite sometimes since, and what have you 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:58.720 seen change really in how people not only look at 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:00.960 this industry and what happens in this industry, but just 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:03.760 even in the terminology because we're thinking that you know, 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:06.040 a lot of companies right now talk about net zero 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:09.560 targets and E s G has become a phrase that 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:12.240 was you know, niche maybe when you first started, and 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:16.320 is now ubiquitous across a lot of investors in the 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:19.679 investment community. How is the terminology and really just kind 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:23.440 of the speed of change changed, Well, it's changed dramatically. 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:27.080 When I became CEO at the end of twenty eleven 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:31.120 and we saw that this was going to change, we 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:34.280 thought the sector was right for a change, but the 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:38.480 technologies weren't really ready. So for example, we started really 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:43.320 inventing I would say grid scale energy storage using lithium 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:46.280 ion batteries for example. Back then, you know this this 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:50.240 goes back even I started to CEO a little bit 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:54.720 before I was CEO, working with people here like Chris Shelton, 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:58.040 we saw that, you know, energy storage was very much 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:00.880 needed if we were going to have a renewable revolution, 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:06.200 because as we all know, renewables are mostly intermittent and 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:11.200 that means that they're not available, so you really needed capacity. 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:14.880 So how are you going to achieve zero carbon capacity? 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:17.719 We had this view of where the sector could go. 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:21.200 We also thought about digitalization, so we worked very hard 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:25.839 to become very efficient, leading edge innovator, i would say 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:29.919 from the very start, but the cost of the of 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:33.000 renewables and many of the technologies weren't there. That that's 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:35.200 really been I would say in the last four or 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:40.599 five years, were renewable energy not capacity. Renewable energy really 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:44.359 became cheapest in many locations. So the good thing is 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:47.800 we had a great foundation to be able to incorporate 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:51.840 all of the latest technologies when they became really cost effective. 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:53.919 So we were, i'd like to say a little bit 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:56.479 ahead of the curve now in terms of how the 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:59.600 sector talked about it. It was interesting when I first started, 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:04.080 you know, making large investments in renewables, investing in leading technologies, 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:07.120 a lot of them through joint ventures. I did get 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:10.240 some pushback you know from uh, you know, some investors, 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:12.680 and I remember the term. One said you you really 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:15.560 drank the kool aid, and I was saying, no, uh, 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:18.120 you know, we think we're going to be able to 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:22.120 make money in this and we think the transition will happen. 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:25.760 So what we've done really is, I would say, be 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:29.039 a leader in the transition. We have let's say, we've 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:34.520 retired or sold more coal as a percentage of our 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:38.200 fleet than anybody in the States. Uh. And in terms 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:41.080 of absolute I think we're second, if not first. But 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:44.800 we've also are one of the largest renewable developers among 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:47.520 all the US companies. What we have done is shut 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:50.880 one down in a responsible fashion and build the new. 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:54.640 So now we find that we no longer get that pushback. 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:57.760 I mean, I don't have anybody questioning it. And you know, 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:01.520 our leadership, you'll say in in g matters is becoming 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:04.160 more more commonplace. But you know, for example, we were 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:07.600 the first large US company in our sector to come 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:10.719 out with a report for the Task Force on Climate Disclosure. 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:14.720 In we came out with the second report last year. 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:19.559 We're part of the Dow Jones Sustainability Index. In terms 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:23.599 of innovation, it's very interesting. The Edison Electric Institute, which 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:26.080 is sort of the umbrella organization of the large electric 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:30.159 companies in the US, gives two prices for innovation every year, 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:36.120 one internationally and one domestically. We have won seven prizes 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:39.720 in the last twelve years, so if you think about that, 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:42.520 we've we've won a very high percentage. Nobody else comes 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:45.200 close for the domestic or the international because you guys 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:48.640 operate in both in North and South America. That's correct, 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:52.240 we've won both. We've won domestic for the US and 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:56.760 we've won international. We've been running up twice as well. 0:06:57.160 --> 0:06:59.760 So I think that, you know, this shows that this 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:03.440 spirit of entrepreneurship, the spirit of innovation that the a 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:06.719 S has somewhat unique, has given very good results. And 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:11.680 you know, we have really moved radically into renewables. I'd 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:15.520 say we're probably half half the way there. But at 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:17.920 the same time, you know, are we be we were 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:20.880 more profitable, you know, we're more profitable than we've ever been. 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:23.480 So we haven't really given up on the economic and 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:26.880 financial side to be able to make this transition. Well, 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:28.960 so perhaps instead of drinking the cool lady saw the 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:33.440 future and speaking of the future, So a s a 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:37.120 net zero target, of when did you set that target? 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:40.000 We have multiple targets and so one of the things 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:41.560 that you know, a lot of people were setting sort 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:43.480 of twenty fifty targets and we thought, well, that's a 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:47.280 long times out and you know, the key executives aren't 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:49.720 going to be here. One that happened, So we set 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:55.440 a lot of shorter term goals. So we have set goals. 0:07:55.440 --> 0:08:00.560 We said goals, we said goals. So are I'd say 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:03.640 our most dramatic is by we want to be net 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:08.720 zero from electricity and then completely net zero by but 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:13.240 we want to be below ten of our generation coming 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:22.640 from coal, and we wanted to be below by. So 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:26.880 we have you know, made you know, dramatic commitments, but 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:29.280 you know, so far we've been overachieving them. So I 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.920 think that we're on a good track to achieve these 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:37.160 uh and we're making the necessary investments today, So we 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:40.320 really aren't just making the investments. In many cases, we're 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:44.760 kind of inventing inventing the market on the digital space, 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:49.240 on the energy storage space, on the combination space. Uh. 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:51.440 And that that's what's allowed us to move that quickly. 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:54.760 About when do you think that a s IS portfolio 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:57.959 will reach kind of peak emissions? Are you already drawing 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:00.840 down on emissions now? Or is that thing that really 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:03.600 will take some time in some investment into before you 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:06.280 can reach that peak and then really start to come down. No. No, 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:09.880 we've passed peak emissions. We're certainly on a decreasing So 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:14.720 I've actually never you know, directly thought of that question, 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:17.160 but it must have been like two or three years 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:22.800 ago when we really started building giga watts of renewables 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:26.000 and when we started shutting down giggle watts of of 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:29.480 cold So you know, in the big picture, we've sold 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:34.440 or retired about twelve gigawatts of coal and you know, 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:37.559 some of it is still in the closing down phase 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:40.120 because you can't do this overnight, but it will happen 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:42.840 over the next couple of years. Uh. And we've built 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:46.120 probably twelve gigga watts of renewables in that time period. 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:48.600 But in addition, I would say we're doing a lot 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:51.240 for climate change that doesn't really count in those numbers 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:55.560 because today we're selling energy storage through our joint venture 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:59.680 with Siemens called Fluence. We're now in twenty nine countries, 0:10:00.360 --> 0:10:04.360 and energy storage is really allowing people to put more 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:07.000 renewables on the grid. You know, we also have a 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:11.400 joint venture where we make prefabs holder a product called Maverick, 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:13.880 and the joint ventures with a company called five b 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:16.720 Uh and we're starting to roll that out, and so 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:19.920 that allows you to double the energy density of solar farms, 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:22.760 build them in a third of the time, and perhaps 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:27.720 most importantly, it's hurricane resistant. We have projects which have survived, 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:31.200 you know, very well to category four hurricanes and now 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:34.280 we're testing it in category five tunnel tests. So we're 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:38.000 doing a lot to help the transition to a sustainable 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:41.560 energy future beyond just our own platform. And as we 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:44.800 record today, there's actually a tropical storm headed for Florida, 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:48.880 so definitely something that you know, many people are keeping 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:52.080 an eye on. Let's expand on that. You know, climate 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:55.240 change is often talked about in terms of global averages, 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:57.800 but really re experience them in these extremes and as 0:10:57.800 --> 0:11:02.320 you referenced, hurricanes, and we have these high temperatures actually 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:05.200 that happened recently in British Columbia, and then these incredibly 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:08.360 low temperatures that happened just this last winter in Texas, 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:12.120 and these have big implications for power companies. You're looking 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:16.720 at this resilience within as you referenced within your solar investments. 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:19.959 How do you think power companies can prepare for these 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:22.680 extremes and how important is it for power companies to 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:25.880 prepare for extremes when you just don't know how often 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:28.600 these things will happen. Well, as they say, it's not 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:31.880 just global warming, it's global weirding. So you will have 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:35.400 more extremes in temperatures, you'll have changes in rainfall patterns 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:39.679 as well. So we've looked at this very deeply, i'd say, 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:42.520 when we came out with a second task of for 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:48.040 you know, report on climate disclosure, the one we looked 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:53.240 at two scenarios and one scenario was basically that the 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:57.439 world doesn't do enough to reduce emissions and the temperature 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:00.800 rises on average four and a half degree celsius. And 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:03.480 the other scenario is that you know the world is 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:09.080 successful and keeps the temperature increased below to degrees celsius. 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:11.840 And what we found is that our business is resilient 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:15.200 both in terms of its physical assets and in terms 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:17.600 of financially in terms of where our exposure will be 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:21.520 when these things occur. So we started that, we did 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:25.560 it again, and you know, we're more robust in Uh, 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:32.240 the scenarios have changed somewhat, but I feel confident of it. So, 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:34.320 you know, one of the things that I think is 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:38.040 very important is that we really be serious and look 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:42.040 at the details. Because when Hurricane Maria hit, for example, 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:46.840 our solar farms in the US Virgin Islands were completely destroyed. 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:49.319 If you look at what happened to wind farms in 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:52.640 Puerto Rico as well. You have to really have renewables 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:55.560 that can resist these extremes. So I go back to, 0:12:56.080 --> 0:12:58.960 you know, the Maverick product of five B that's hurricane 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:02.480 resistant solar. That's key. You know, it doesn't make sense 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:06.160 to make people build something that will be destroyed. So 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:09.120 one of the approaches that we've taken I think that's 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:12.080 unique is that we think of ourselves as open source. 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:15.400 So when we come up with new developments, whether it 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:22.439 be energy storage, AI efficiency programs, whether it be you know, 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:26.319 hurricane resistant solar, farms. We sell it to third parties 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:30.040 because this is a global problem. So if we can 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:33.800 get people to put these on their platforms, will advance 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:36.760 renewables much faster than we try to just keep it 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:40.760 as a competitive advantage for ourselves. That definitely does push 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:44.280 things forward, because well, it pushes innovation. So you were 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:48.320 talking about how a S really looked at batteries before 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:51.320 they were probably as popular as they are today. And 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:54.240 also a lot of these renewable technologies which now have 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:58.400 very strong economics, but didn't always. So this puts some 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:02.960 emphasis on technology an advancement. And of course there's advancing 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:05.839 existing technologies and making them more efficient better. But then 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:09.360 there's this concept of what don't we know? What haven't 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:12.680 we invented yet? And that came up earlier this year. 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:16.280 So Biden convene in this climate summit with world leaders, 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:18.800 and one of the things that Secretary carry said at 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:21.560 that summit was that many of the technologies that we 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:24.600 need for a net zero future haven't been invented yet. 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:28.840 Do you think that's true and if so, where do 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:31.560 you see the technology development going. Well, I think it's 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:33.920 true in the sense that we have to get to 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:38.400 net zero in all sectors, not just electricity. So I 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:41.200 think in the case of electricity that you will have 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:45.920 specific problems, mostly of capacity in places where you know 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:47.920 you don't have good win, you don't have good solar, 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:52.960 you have great seasonal variability. So the truth is thinking 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:56.040 of the US as a whole, you know, we probably 0:14:56.200 --> 0:15:00.080 know how to get to probably about carbon free. The 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:02.680 last will be more difficult, and so the real question 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:05.200 is how do you approach that, and against it's a 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:08.920 question of doing it economically because you know you could 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:11.720 do it, but the cost of electricity would would not 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:14.640 be affordable, so that really there is that issue. There 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:19.480 are technologies on the horizon energy storage using lithiumine batteries 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:22.560 US keep getting cheaper, but it's not the ideal solution 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:26.840 for for example, interseasonal variations, because it's it's terrific for 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:30.760 even you know, I would say weekly variations, but it's 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:33.920 not the right technology for interseasons. So you know, will 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:37.640 it be green hydrogen, will it be modular nuclear, so 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:40.520 on something? Some of these you know, we do need 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:45.400 to really have the And again, the technology i'd say exists, 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:47.840 the real question is can you scale it up? Is 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:50.560 it cost efficient? Decisions have to be made. You know, 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:54.600 are we going to except, for example, modular nuclear, because 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:56.560 that would solve a lot of the problems of capacity. 0:15:57.120 --> 0:15:59.320 You know, those are the decisions that have to be made. Now. 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:02.160 Do I think that we will get there? I do, 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:05.320 But I do think that there's a whole lot we 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:09.160 can do with today's existing technologies. It's a question of 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:12.600 having the right regulations in place to incentivize using the 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:16.640 best possible technology, because some of this is regulatory driven, 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:20.960 so sometimes regulations are keeping back the optimal technologies. Now 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:27.200 for a very short break, stay with us. So I 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:30.160 love that you brought up green hydrogen because hydrogen is 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:34.200 definitely a very buzzy topic at the moment. A lot 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:36.880 of people want to know more about the potential of 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:39.280 hydrogen maybe when the costs are really going to be 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:42.000 at parody, and I think there are a lot of 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:44.880 companies that really are thinking about this as a is 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:47.360 a very viable solution for the future. So I'm maybe 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:51.040 not necessarily about hydrogen um, but about any technology. If 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:55.120 you had to pick, what is one energy transition technology 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:59.040 that you feel is a bit overhyped at the moment. Well, actually, 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:01.960 I do think it probably be green hydrogen. You know, 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:08.000 we have today probably the first industrial scale project in 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:11.080 Chile to produce green ammonia. It's a joint venture and 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:13.880 you know, we're in the feasibility study and as you say, 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:16.800 you know, it's really it can be produced. The question is, 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:20.199 you know, the price point. But if successful, you know, 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:23.840 this would be require almost a giggle watt of renewable 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:27.240 energy to crack the water and produce the hydrogen, and 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:29.679 then of course you have to transport it, and you know, 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:33.200 can you use a fuel like green ammonia for the transportation. 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:37.240 So we're actually I think leaving the pack in this. 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:41.760 I'm not aware of any other truly industrial scale in 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:46.360 this case. It's green ammonia, hydrogen based fuel that's at 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:48.760 this stage of advancement that we're in. So you have 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:51.400 a lot of projects that are you know, twenty megawatts 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:54.960 or you know, pilot projects. So it gets hype like, well, 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:58.000 this is the solution. Well, no, we have to be 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:00.679 able to do, you know, make a million tons three 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:04.560 hundred thousand tons a year from one facility to to 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:06.520 really drive down the cost. So I think it's a 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:09.639 little bit overhyped. Now. The other issue is Uh, you know, 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:12.640 there's the electric sectors. I said, the real problem is capacity, 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:16.880 uh and inter seasonal fluctuations. But then you have transportation. 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:21.159 In the case of transportation, I do think that you know, 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:26.560 for everyday commuting electric vehicles are you know, probably the solution. 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:30.159 Now when you're talking about long hauls of trucking and 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:32.880 the like, you know, that's where something like hydrogen comes in. 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:36.119 Do we have the engines that don't need a starter fuel? 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:38.600 Do we have you know, how are you going to 0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:40.919 transport it? You know, how are you going to make 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:44.320 sure that the whole cycle makes sense? Because you know, 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:45.840 you have to think of the whole cycle. You know, 0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:49.040 what is the energy loss when you produce the fuel, 0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:51.840 when you store it, when you transport it, and then 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:53.880 you burn it again. You know, you have to look 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:56.320 at the complete picture. So there's still a lot of 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.399 things that have to happen. So I think some of 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:01.760 the companies are over hyping it. If if we get 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:04.840 this big project off, you know, by the end of 0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:07.479 this year, I think that's going to be really a 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:10.080 milestone in the sector. So it's going to be very 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:13.560 specifically you know, for like say ocean transportation, but a 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:16.040 lot of it would go into actually fertilizer, I believe. 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:18.639 So I have to ask, do you have an electric vehicle? Yes? 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:22.080 I do, well, Yes, I do have a Tesla Model three. 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:25.000 In addition, you know here at a Yes, we've been 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:28.719 planting trees to offset our carbon emissions. It actually started 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:33.240 by Roger Sant, who's who's one of our two founders. 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:37.120 But you know today we've planted ten million trees. So 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:41.360 even today we calculate our carbon footprint for by for travel, 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:43.720 you know, because bart really jet travel is probably the 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:47.720 most carbon intensive thing that any of us does. Uh, 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:50.800 and we offset it by planting trees in Brazil. So yeah, 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:54.520 we're very conscious about our own carbon footprint and trying 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:57.639 to reduce it in all our installations. How much of 0:19:57.680 --> 0:20:02.440 an opportunity or potentially logistical challenge do you think electric 0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:04.600 vehicles are going to pose for the grid and for 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:08.480 the electricity sector, because as you referenced, for long haul, 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:11.560 even an electric vehicle, you've got to figure out where 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:13.520 you're going to charge and where you're gonna take your breaks, 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:16.960 and it may not always happen at home. Yes, that's 0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:20.520 a good question. Look, I think that first year you're 0:20:20.520 --> 0:20:23.560 gonna have the you know, for example, electrification of bus fleets. 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:25.920 You know, that's going to require energy storage because it's 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:29.320 basically either you have to upgrade the whole grid or 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:31.600 or you're going to store up energy in certain you know, 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:34.919 bus team posts. When you think of cars, you know, 0:20:34.960 --> 0:20:38.720 individually at the homes, they're kind of like mobile batteries, 0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:41.160 and so how do they fit into a smart grid. 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:44.520 So one of the things that we're the leaders in 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:48.400 quite frankly through a joint venture called Uplight, we are 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:54.159 the leading energy efficiency services cloud based services provider, you know, 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:56.400 just a sort of a data point where we're the biggest, 0:20:56.400 --> 0:20:59.480 I believe seller of nests in the country. We provide 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:05.960 energy efficiency algorithms, etcetera to a d us electric and 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:10.879 gas utilities. So I think this part of using AI 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:15.240 and smart networks is part of the solution because the 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:21.640 most let's say, carbon friendly solution is to use electricity 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:25.800 more efficiently, and so we're approaching that as well. So 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:28.280 the way we look at it, what is unique about 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:31.560 AS is that we bring together all the technologies and 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:35.119 we joint venture with people. We've been very effective at 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:40.600 taking small startups and growing up to you know, unicorns valuations, 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:43.520 you know, over a billion dollars, and the fact that 0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:46.520 we are pretty much open source, you know, we are 0:21:46.600 --> 0:21:51.960 sharing our technological advances with with everybody. So again, when 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:55.399 we started using lithium ion batteries for energy storage, nobody 0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:58.080 else was and we had the first great scale units 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:01.560 not only in the States, but you know in countries 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:07.159 like you know, Germany, the UK, India, Philippines, and a 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:09.159 lot of the work was, for example, with regulators to 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:11.920 get that pass. So, you know, we could have taken 0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:14.240 an approach and saying, look, we're leading in this, let's 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:18.119 use it to you know, win more power purchase agreements. 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:20.480 But instead, you know, I think we took the right 0:22:20.560 --> 0:22:22.840 role of saying, okay, we will sell it at the 0:22:22.880 --> 0:22:25.960 same price to others because it will allow us to 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:29.639 massiffice and drop the cost. What's one of the areas 0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:34.320 in particular in regard to storage, where you see there 0:22:34.320 --> 0:22:36.400 are being some real potential and one of the things 0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:38.879 that you're kind of maybe not experimenting, but trying out. 0:22:39.040 --> 0:22:40.920 I think one of the areas that excites me most 0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:46.240 is the application of energy storage to transmission, because transmission 0:22:46.280 --> 0:22:49.800 lines are built, you know, the whole line for the 0:22:49.880 --> 0:22:53.240 maximum use at any period of time. You know, it 0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:55.280 could be a couple of days of a month, and 0:22:55.320 --> 0:22:58.520 it could be a couple of hours during those days. 0:22:58.520 --> 0:23:01.000 So really they're overbuilt, you know the words, they're a 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:04.240 little bit like you know, uh, you know, they have 0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:07.000 the you have the opportunity like for an uber or 0:23:07.080 --> 0:23:10.720 B and B Airbnb. So how can you make better 0:23:10.800 --> 0:23:13.920 use of that transmission? So if you put energy storage 0:23:13.960 --> 0:23:17.960 on it, you can basically run those same transmission line 0:23:18.560 --> 0:23:24.760 at of capacity all the time because you are storing 0:23:24.800 --> 0:23:28.240 it up in these banks and injecting it where you 0:23:28.280 --> 0:23:30.760