WEBVTT - The Necromantic Urge, Part 2 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:06.000 Ah necromancy Sweet, Ah Wizard air udep teach me the 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:10.160 skill that I instill, the pain surgeons assuage in vain, 0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:13.080 nor herb of all the plane can heal. 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:20.639 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:29.280 Hey, Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:30.000 is Robert. 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:33.360 Lamb, and I am Joe McCormick. And that poem I 0:00:33.440 --> 0:00:35.800 just read was from Emily Dickinson. And some of the 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:40.280 numbering systems, that's her poem, number one seventy seven. I 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:43.000 would say, not one of her greatest efforts. But you know, 0:00:43.080 --> 0:00:45.800 some of those poems in her collections seem like something 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:48.160 she just jotted on the back of a notepad real quick. 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:50.960 I think that's more one of those. But I still 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:56.280 like the forced rhyme of sweet with erudite, and I 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:58.920 don't know, wizard feels more right than wizard. 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:02.080 I like reading yes and yeah. This was not a 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:05.640 poem of Emily Dickinson's that I was familiar with. Sometimes 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:10.560 just it's given the title ah necromancy Sweet, it is 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:12.880 a note that like, basically I was gonna just bust 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:16.440 out another Clark Ashton Smith poem for this episode, but 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:18.240 then I was like, who else has some poems about 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:22.000 necromancy and necromancers? And lo and behold, Emily Dickinson has 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:25.640 not one, but two, which may surprise some of you, 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:28.840 may not surprise some of you who are more familiar 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:29.360 with her work. 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:33.640 I would say I'm an Emily Dickinson fan, though I 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:35.920 would not have been able to tell you that she 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:38.880 had poems that use the word necromancy, though I know 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:41.279 a number of her poems are concerned with death. 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:46.320 Yeah, she saw the skull beneath the skin, that's for sure. 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:49.320 Oh skull of skulls. Well, anyway, we are back with 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:53.640 part two in our series on necromancy. Now, if you've 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:56.160 been listening to the podcast for a while, you probably 0:01:56.240 --> 0:01:58.840 know that every year, for the whole month of October, 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:02.920 we focus our tension on topics of the beastly, ghostly, 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:07.440 devilish or uncanny sort. And also, as we often do, 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:10.560 we got started a little bit early this year, So 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:13.080 we got started last week, even though it was still 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:17.720 technically September, with the first part in a series on necromancy, 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:22.520 the practice of communicating with the dead, usually for the 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:27.200 purpose of divination, of gaining access to hidden information, or truth. 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:31.320 And in that episode we talked about accounts of necromancy 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:36.000 or pseudo necromantic legends from ancient China, as well as 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:39.720 methods of both speaking to and exercising ghosts in the 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:44.359 first millennium BCE in Mesopotamia. And today we are going 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:47.480 to continue our journey into the nether world talking about 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:51.720 necromancy practices and legends from ancient Greece and Rome. 0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:55.840 That's right, We're going to be talking about Greek accounts 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:59.440 of necromancy or things like necromancy to some extent in 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:02.240 this episode, and who knows where we'll end up in 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:05.519 a third episode on necromancy. So one of the sources 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:07.880 that I mentioned in the last episode is a paper 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:13.040 by Czech academic Andres CapCar titled the Origins of Necromancy 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:16.640 or how we Learn to Speak to the Dead great title, 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:21.080 and according to CapCar, the earliest mentions of necromancy they 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:25.360 don't require a lot of inference and interpretation, can be 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:30.960 found in ancient Greece. In this we're dealing with nekia, 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:34.680 which is the practice of calling forth ghosts and asking 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:40.320 them about the future or as we'll get into things 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:44.040 that are maybe not the future, But are that are 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:48.160 concerned with knowledge beyond what an individual has at their disposal. 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:51.480 You know, the dead by virtue of being dead, they 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:53.200 can tell you things. They can tell you things from 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:57.040 their life, from their place of origin, and so forth. 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:00.000 The primary example that he deals with, and indeed of 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:03.160 primary example you've seen a lot of discussions of what 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:07.600 is or isn't acromancy in ancient Greek traditions takes us 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:10.360 all the way back to book eleven of the Odyssey, 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:14.640 in which Odysseus receives instructions about how to question the 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:17.479 dead and then does so. Now, Joe correct me if 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:19.839 I'm wrong, But I think we've recounted this story before 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:21.320 on the podcast. 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:23.480 Possibly, but it's been a while, so I think it's 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:25.520 worth refreshing on the story. 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:29.520 All right, Well, I'll give everyone the basics here concerning 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:32.320 this episode. So basically, you know the deal with Odysseus. 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:34.760 He's trying to get home, right, He's been off to war, 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:38.120 he's seen the Trojan wars, and so forth. Wants to 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:41.200 get home, wants to be reunited with his wife. A 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:45.080 lot of misadventures occur on the way, So might say 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:48.240 he takes the scenic route does he takes the scenic route, 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:50.880 and one of the more scenic routes ends up taking. 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:53.400 He and his crew wind up on the island of 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:57.120 Circe in the care you might say, or under the 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:02.240 dominion of the enchantress Circe, and there's you know, there's 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:06.480 some misunderstanding, there's some transfiguration involved, there's a good bit 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:08.880 of seduction, and they end up staying there for like 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:14.680 a year, So they're hanging out on this island for 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:16.400 a fair amount of time. 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:19.320 I don't know exactly how all of this gets explained 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:20.359 Penelope later. 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:24.640 Well, you know, we there's a possible answer to that 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:28.440 here coming up. But essentially, you know, he has time 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:33.279 to seek some guidance, get some some advice from Circe, 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:36.520 and basically he wants to seek the advice of the 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:40.800 prophet Tyrisius, the blind Seer of Thebes, who in one 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:43.080 Greek myth is is changing to a woman for several 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:46.440 years and then back into a man. But in this story, 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:49.719 this seer is dead and that's a problem, and that's 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:52.920 why Circe sends Odysseus to the very gates of the 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:56.200 land of the Dead in order to seek his advice. 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:58.760 So that's what the crew does. That's what the guys do. 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:02.559 They go to the very limits of the mortal realm, 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:05.239 right up to the border with the Land of the Dead, 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:10.080 and per Circe's instructions, they dig a trench, they offer libations, 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:14.280 they sacrifice you and a ram. These are the practices 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:18.279 of Nekia. So the blood of the sacrifice calls forth ghosts, 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:22.320 but it calls forth ghosts by the thousands, so it's 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:26.120 just just calls them all out. They all come swarming. 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:30.159 Key individuals that Odysseus knew in life they come forward 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:33.080 as well. One of them is Odysseus's own mother, and 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:36.000 initially he does not let her of her spirit approach 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:40.359 the blood, but finally here comes Tyrisius. He drinks the 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:45.440 blood and then speaks and tells Odysseus how their journey 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:48.760 home is likely to go, and basically he breaks it 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:51.120 to him. Look, you you know that stuff with the 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:54.279 Cyclops while you offended Poseidon and he's a p pretty 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:56.840 powerful guy. You're gonna have to make amends for that. 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:02.400 There he outlines some of the other hurdles that are 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:05.560 in their path, and then Odysseus asked well, how can 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:07.640 I speak to the ghost of my mother who I 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:11.080 just ran into And he is told that he must 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:13.760 let the spirit drink the blood. If the spirit doesn't 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:15.960 drink the blood, then they cannot speak to the living, 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:19.320 and so he allows his mother's spirit to do that. 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:21.680 He doesn't stand in her way, and he's able to 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:24.679 speak with his mother and learn about events at home. 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:29.120 There are more details. I may touch on some more 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:31.640 here in a minute, but that's the basics here. Odysseus 0:07:31.680 --> 0:07:34.920 engages in a specific right to attract the spirits of 0:07:34.960 --> 0:07:38.200 the deceased, appeases them, and gives them the power of 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:39.600 speech and their for prophecy. 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:42.640 Okay, So I know this passage is of interest to 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:47.200 people trying to understand the culture and the ritual practices 0:07:47.200 --> 0:07:50.680 of ancient Greece because it's often interpreted not just as 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:55.120 an isolated story in a fictional narrative, but a reflection 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:58.880 of generally how the rituals of necromancy were thought to work, 0:07:58.920 --> 0:07:59.600 at least to some. 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:02.480 Extent, that's right. Yeah, So yeah, we're doing with what 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:06.320 an eighth century BCE text that many argue as our 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:10.120 earliest clear look at the idea of what would come 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:12.440 to be known as necromancy. But at the same time, 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:14.120 I do have to highlight that I was looking around 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:17.320 not everyone is convinced that it's truly what we'd call necromancy. 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:19.800 We kind of get into the semantics game again. I've 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:23.200 seen arguments that what takes place here is essentially a 0:08:23.280 --> 0:08:27.320 standard sacrifice to the spirits of the dead, only observed 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:31.000 on the physical threshold of death's own country. So I 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:34.839 don't you know again, like perhaps the location is the 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:39.359 key thing here, and the right itself is not necromancy itself, 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:43.520 but takes on necromantic powers due to proximity to the 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:44.320 land of the dead. 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:47.320 That'll come back in some stuff I want to get 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:48.120 into in a little bit. 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:52.720 But on the other hand, plenty of commentators do equate 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:57.000 nekia with necromancy. Some things to keep in mind about 0:08:57.040 --> 0:08:59.080 what we see here in this primary example. 0:08:59.360 --> 0:08:59.840 So, first of. 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:03.440 All, as we were discussing in the first episode, this 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:06.440 is one of those ancient accounts that involves speaking to 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:11.040 the dead. It does not involved controlling the dead. I mean, 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:13.839 aside from just giving them the power of speech by 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:14.800 offering them the blood. 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:17.200 Yeah, that's right. We talked about in the last episode. 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:19.920 How if you hear the word necromancer today, especially if 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:23.520 you play Dungeons and Dragons or you're familiar with general 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:27.160 fantasy horror literature, you're probably thinking of someone who like 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:31.880 commands armies of skeletons to do their bidding. And that's 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:35.400 not usually what's being discussed with ancient necromancy. It's specifically 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:39.440 a divination practice. It's about communicating with the dead, usually 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:40.479 to get information. 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:41.560 Yeah. 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:43.599 Now, the other interesting thing about this, and something I 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:47.480 rather like about this example, is that Odysseus doesn't summon 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:51.200 one dead individual from the realm of the dead. He 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:53.680 summons all of them at once, like just a mass 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:56.319 of them. Like it's kind of like he replied all 0:09:56.440 --> 0:09:58.880 or you know how in different organizations, there'll be that 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:02.480 one email address where you can you can contact everybody 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:06.640 in the organization. It's like, you know, all dead at 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:10.240 underworld dot com or something to that effect. That's what 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:12.839 Odysseus does here, And they're like, whoa, everybody's in the 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:14.160 chat now. 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:16.920 And then everybody starts replying and that's the day you 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:19.679 get five hundred emails on the same thread and yeah. 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:22.720 Exactly, yeah, and then he has to try and figure 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:26.400 out who he specifically wants to talk to. Now, aspects 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:31.280 of this that that are reflected in later traditions of necromancy. 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:34.400 It does entail blood. There is blood and blood sacrifice 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:37.319 involved here. It entail it does entail the ability to 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:38.440 speak with the dead and. 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:39.640 Learn from them. 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:43.800 And again this may work mostly due to proximity to 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:47.040 the Kingdom of the Dead. And you could also classify 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:50.320 this as an example of katabasis or a descent into 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:53.240 the underworld. I mean, even if Odysseus is only going 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:55.920 to the gates of Hell here, I mean he's essentially 0:10:56.920 --> 0:10:58.959 he's essentially in the underworld, right, I mean, where do 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:03.200 you draw the line between actually going there and just 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:04.240 going to the edge of it? 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:04.839 Right? 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:07.760 Well, so you could have an example like Orpheus that 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:10.800 I think is more a more complete kind of bassis. 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:13.199 But this is he's at least going part of the way. 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:15.600 And I think it is portrayed from what I recall 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:19.520 in the narrative as a as a harrowing journey into 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:22.720 a place that, you know, where mortals do not normally 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:24.240 tread exactly. 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:27.920 Yeah, And of course this is a major theme in literature. 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:29.959 We see it in Virgil Zania. We see it in 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:34.320 Dante's Divine Comedy, and so many other examples, you know, 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:37.840 pop culture and otherwise. When people travel into the realm 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:41.640 of the dead to get something, to find someone, to 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:46.160 get secret knowledge, et cetera, there are often complications. There's 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:47.440 often a fair amount of traunta. 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:51.000 Now, you know. Another thing I recall from the narrative 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:54.600 in the Odyssey is that it presents a vision of 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:58.400 the underworld and of the afterlife in which being dead sucks. 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:02.800 It is really bad, and it's just it's not something 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:06.000 you want, and it's not like heaven where everybody's a 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:08.200 nice angel and things are great. 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:09.560 Now, you know. 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:12.840 It just it depicts the afterlife is a kind of 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:18.000 miserable only half kind of pseudo existence. 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:21.400 Yeah, and it's it's interesting to think about that. I mean, 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:24.680 we could have a larger discussion about various versions of 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:27.920 the afterlife, but certainly, very generally, there are plenty of 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:31.559 other examples where the afterlife is considered like the destination. 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:34.000 It is the thing, and suffering here in the mortal 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:37.520 realm is worth it for those treasures in the next realm. 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:40.560 And you know, at least on the surface, you seem 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:43.440 to see a reversal here in these traditions where like 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:46.920 this is the life, this is the the prime existence. 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:49.719 What happens next is just kind of a shadow. 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:51.160 Now. 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:55.240 CapCar also singles out one of the other details of 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:57.560 this encounter, and that's and that concerns one of the 0:12:57.600 --> 0:12:59.959 other dead individuals, the spirits of the dead that approach 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:05.679 Odysseus here from the underworld, and that's Elpinor. This was 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:09.440 the youngest member of Odysseus's crew who remember that year 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:12.480 that they spent on the island of Sirce. Well, during 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:15.560 that year, Elpinor becomes drunk and decides, you know what 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:17.760 I'm gonna do. I'm gonna go sleep on that roof. 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:21.120 So he grips and gets himself a ladder and he 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:23.280 starts climbing up that ladder to get on the roof 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:26.280 so he can sleep. But he falls off the ladder. 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:27.160 He breaks his neck. 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:27.760 He dies. 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:31.480 Well, you know, it's sad, but even sadder it turns 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:33.600 out the boys forgot to give him a proper burial 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:37.720 and to grieve for him. So it's kind of embarrassing 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:40.880 for Odysseus. He shows up here in the underworld and 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:43.720 here comes Elpinor, and he says, hey, you remember me. 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:45.599 I was the youngest member of your crew and I 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:48.560 got drunk, I fell off that ladder, I broke my neck. Well, 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:53.640 you guys didn't bury me or grieve for me. Could 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:56.600 you do that? That would be really swell, And so 0:13:56.920 --> 0:14:00.520 Odysseus says, yes, we'll totally do that. Are bad, we 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:05.160 will bury you and grief for you. And so, I 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:08.080 don't know, I'm looking at it with a slightly humorous lens. 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:12.120 I don't know if that was really intended in the 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:16.000 original work, but it is in principle. Another example of 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:19.040 the restless Dead, which we referred to in the last episode, 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:21.680 the idea that you know, there are different types of ghosts. 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:23.520 There are different types of spirits of the dead that 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:26.080 might speak to you. They're the ones who were properly 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:29.600 buried and are remembered and everything is sort of like 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:32.800 squared away with them. And there are those that have 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:36.400 some kind of a grudge something, you know, keeping them 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:41.040 here in our world, or specifically they were not properly 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:54.200 buried and therefore cannot pass on. Now. Necromancy occurs elsewhere 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:57.000 in ancient Greece. We'll get into some examples of this 0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:00.320 as we proceed here, often involving temples devoted to an 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:02.800 oracle of the dead. So this is the place where 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.640 one could specifically go to seek to call up a 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:09.920 spirit of the deceased. Various authors wrote about such places, 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:13.360 including Plutarch and Herodotus. You'll find details of these oracles 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:14.120 in their writings. 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:16.760 We're going to talk about some examples of those places 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:20.520 in a minute. But I really got to wondering, why 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:25.120 do people think that ghosts know anything special, you know, 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:28.440 other than answering questions like what's going on in the 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:31.560 nether world. I mean that came up in the ancient 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:35.120 Mesopotamian poem of Gilgamesh in key Do in the nether world, 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:39.000 where remember Gilgamesh, he keeps like his stuff keeps falling 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:42.080 into the underworld, into the house of dust, and he's like, 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:44.280 I need my stuff back, and then in key Do 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:46.880 goes down in there to get it for him. But 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:49.520 in key Do screws up. He doesn't follow the rules. 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:52.120 He throws throwing sticks at the dead and all that, 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:55.080 and then he gets stuck down there, and so he's 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:58.440 dead now. And then he comes back up through a 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:02.400 Necromantic summoning, and Gilgamesh is like, hey, tell me what 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:04.320 the nether world is, like, you know, what are the 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:06.160 fates of the dead down there and so forth? 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:10.680 That makes sense, yeah, yeah, but otherwise, I mean there 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:14.280 are certain situations. So take Odysseus speaking with his mother. 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:17.200 If memory serves, the whole situation is like his mother 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:20.360 was alive when he last saw her, and so this 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:25.040 is he's learning things about home that details about home 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:28.160 that he's not privy too, but she experienced before her passing. 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:31.760 I think I'm remembering that ride I could be misremembering 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:32.680 part of that. 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:35.280 That's right, that there are some classes of information that 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:38.640 makes sense in a practical way like that, and I'll 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:42.040 get into that in a minute. But also like how 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:46.160 would a ghost have privileged information, so information about the future. 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:49.280 Well I found an interesting article that gets into that 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:52.680 somewhat with respect to ancient Greek and Roman necromancy, but 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:56.240 also has a lot of other interesting general information about 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:59.120 Greco Roman practices of communicating with the dead. So I 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:01.880 want to talk about this art. It is called lay 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:06.879 that Ghost. Necromancy in Ancient Greece and Rome by Daniel Ogden, 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:11.240 was originally published in Archaeology Odyssey back in two thousand 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:14.040 and two. I found a republication of it on the 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:18.199 magazine of a Biblical archaeology website. But Daniel Ogden is 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:22.240 a professor of ancient history at the University of Exeter 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:22.960 in England. 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:27.119 Yeah, this is a great question because it instantly reminds 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:30.240 me of that episode of The Simpsons where Homer eats 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:31.439 the pepper and has the. 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:36.800 Psychedelic dream journey Johnny Cash. 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:39.840 He talks to the space coyote voiced by Johnny Cash 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:42.320 and he's asking some advice of it, and he's like, 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:45.600 I'm just an hallucination. I don't have any new information. 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:50.440 But so sometimes it didn't have to be new information. 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:55.600 Sometimes it was like you were saying personal, practically accessible 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:59.920 information for the ghost. One common example of this is 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:04.520 stories of necromancy from ancient Greece, where the ghost tells 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:08.320 you what you need to do to fix your relationship 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:12.320 with the ghost with themselves. So if somebody died an 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:16.399 untimely death and it was your fault, you could perform 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:19.520 necromancy to find out what was needed in order to 0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:20.280 make amends. 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:22.840 Yeah, and you can almost think of this as some 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:25.920 sort of I mean, hopefully you didn't just murder the 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:29.080 person in cold blood. But even still, I guess it's 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:32.000 like it's almost like some form of therapy, like this 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:34.359 is weighing heavily on your conscious Let's summon up the 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:37.840 spirit of the dead and see what they want in 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:39.119 order for things to move on. 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:42.560 Sometimes it was just straight up murder. I'll mention a 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:46.040 couple of different examples. So the article here opens with 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:50.200 a retelling piece together from Plutarch, Thucydides and a few 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:54.640 other sources, of this story of the fifth century BCE 0:18:55.040 --> 0:19:00.000 Spartan general Pausanius. Now, just to note this, this story 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:02.439 is pieced together from a bunch of different accounts, and 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:06.000 it is not necessarily all thought to be all historically true. 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:09.280 This is like the story of this guy's life. But 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:14.080 Pausanias was a Spartan regent and general who famously defended Greece. 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:18.840 He defended the Hellenic League against the Persians at the 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:22.439 Battle of Platia. So his original fame is as a 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:26.480 defender of Greece against Persian invasion. But then later in 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:30.560 life he was caught trying to betray Greece and make 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:33.720 a secret pact with the Persian kings or Exees the Great. 0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:36.000 And in the middle of all this, there is a 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:41.000 tragic story that Pausanias accidentally killed an innocent young woman 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:45.480 named Kleonesi in his bedchambers when he was startled awake 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:48.159 in the night. I guess he thought there were assassins 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:50.040 coming for him. He reaches for his sword and he 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:53.719 accidentally kills this woman, this young woman, and after this 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:56.720 he is haunted by the woman's ghost. So he sought 0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:59.480 the help of a necromancer, or I guess maybe it's 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:02.040 debatable whether this should be called a necromancer. But he 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:05.400 sought the help of a sort of spirit guide at 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:08.639 an oracle of the dead on the southern shore of 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:11.960 the Black Sea. So this is a place where you 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:14.639 would go to conjure up a ghost. And so he 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:17.760 conjures the ghost of Kleonesy so he could learn how 0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:20.639 to make it right, and according to the legend, the 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:23.359 ghost told him all he needed to do to make 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:26.760 amends and to stop the haunting would be to return 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:30.879 home to Sparta. But this is one of those cruel 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:34.399 tricks that ghosts sometimes play, because when he went home 0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:39.040 to Sparta, his betrayal to the Persians was exposed, so 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:41.640 the Spartans found out about him. They tried to seize him, 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:45.200 and then he tried to seek sanctuary in the Temple 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:48.680 of Athena, where he thought his pursuers would be unable 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:52.199 to capture and execute him for fear of impiety. You know, 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:55.520 he's taking sanctuary in a temple. But the story goes 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:58.320 that they found a way around this. The Spartans bricked 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:01.720 up the entrance and sealed him inside until he starved 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:02.119 to death. 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:03.199 Oh wow. 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:05.440 After this, however, there was a there was an all 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:08.600 new problem. Now the ghost of Pausanius was haunting the 0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:12.439 Temple of Athena. So the Spartans had to ask the 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:15.840 oracle of Delphi what to do, and then the oracle 0:21:16.040 --> 0:21:18.920 advised them that they needed to bring in some exorcists. 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:23.879 These professional Ogden calls them evocators. He says, the Greek 0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:29.600 term is sucha go gooy, which means soul conductors. And 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:32.359 they came in and they checked the situation out and 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:34.640 told them how to get rid of the ghost of Pausanius, 0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:41.840 and they succeeded. They exercised him effectively. Busted right, bustin 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:44.119 must make them feel good. Because they came all the 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:48.200 way from Italy to Sparta to do this. And this 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:51.439 story illustrates what Ogden claims is probably the most common 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:54.080 piece of information sought from the dead in Greek and 0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:57.320 Roman necromancy, and that is what does the ghost need? 0:21:57.440 --> 0:22:00.720 What will make the ghost go away or stop plunting me, 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:03.640 or allow the ghost to achieve rest? And I thought 0:22:03.680 --> 0:22:07.920 this was interesting in that it combines two different traditions 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:10.639 that we talked about separately in the last part in 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:15.120 this series. So one is necromancy seeking information from the dead, 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:18.720 and the other is exorcism, which is the removal of 0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:22.760 a ghost or a spirit from an unwonted place or context. 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:26.680 So if Ogden is correct here, the most common aim 0:22:26.920 --> 0:22:30.080 of the former is actually the achievement of the latter. 0:22:30.200 --> 0:22:33.399 The most common reason ancient Greek and Roman people would 0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:36.560 go to a necromancer was to figure out how to 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:40.000 get a ghost to stop bothering them. 0:22:40.040 --> 0:22:42.720 You know, these series of steps there were, I mean, 0:22:42.720 --> 0:22:48.760 there's some they're echoed throughout our supernatural fiction today, but 0:22:49.280 --> 0:22:52.280 one example that instantly comes to mind is the accounts 0:22:52.320 --> 0:22:55.560 of at least some versions of the Ring. I guess 0:22:55.560 --> 0:22:59.399 I'm mainly thinking about the first American remake of it. 0:22:59.440 --> 0:23:02.560 But in that film alone, you see sort of the 0:23:02.760 --> 0:23:05.200 three step approach where they're like, okay, there's some sort 0:23:05.200 --> 0:23:07.600 of sort of the realization that there's a ghost involved, 0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:10.880 some sort of a spirit. Okay, what does the ghost want? 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:14.199 They try and answer that question, They try even to 0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:16.880 get in on the whole, like let's, uh, let's make 0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:21.600 things right with the ghosts remains. But then the big reveal, 0:23:21.680 --> 0:23:23.720 of course, is that the ghost isn't going to be 0:23:23.760 --> 0:23:26.439 satisfied with any of those things. This is one of 0:23:26.440 --> 0:23:30.760 that second classification of ghosts, that all it wants is vengeance. 0:23:31.280 --> 0:23:33.520 Yeah, maybe less a ghost and more a demon. 0:23:34.000 --> 0:23:34.440 Yeah. 0:23:34.840 --> 0:23:36.959 The only thing that we'll make it right is to 0:23:37.040 --> 0:23:39.800 just move on from VHS to some other format. And 0:23:39.840 --> 0:23:42.080 I think that's the only way that that's issue was 0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:42.720 ever defeated. 0:23:43.960 --> 0:23:49.080 So, speaking of classifications of ghosts, another interesting point that 0:23:49.080 --> 0:23:52.439 Ogden raises in this article is the claim that in 0:23:52.680 --> 0:23:55.480 most Greek and Roman sources there were sort of two 0:23:55.640 --> 0:23:59.000 different modes in which ghosts could appear. And he does 0:23:59.040 --> 0:24:01.480 not use the terms. I just made these up to 0:24:01.640 --> 0:24:04.159 kind of help us sort through what he's saying. I'm 0:24:04.200 --> 0:24:07.639 gonna call these categories the wild ghost and the dial 0:24:07.640 --> 0:24:11.600 a ghost. So a wild ghost is off leash. It 0:24:11.720 --> 0:24:16.080 is a dangerous, terrifying, and uncontrollable entity that cannot be 0:24:16.200 --> 0:24:19.760 reasoned with. This is the ghost that haunts someone by 0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:23.760 coming into their life or by haunting a place unbidden 0:24:23.960 --> 0:24:26.920 and attacking a person repeatedly. This is a ghost you 0:24:27.280 --> 0:24:31.280 cannot talk to and you can't like bargain with in 0:24:31.320 --> 0:24:31.879 this state. 0:24:32.240 --> 0:24:35.000 All right, So this is very much like the wrathful 0:24:35.040 --> 0:24:39.679 ghost Samara or Sadako from the Rain or from various 0:24:39.720 --> 0:24:41.040 other treatments. 0:24:41.160 --> 0:24:43.320 Well, yeah, but I think this is also just any 0:24:43.400 --> 0:24:46.720 loose ghost. It's a ghost that's haunting a person and 0:24:46.760 --> 0:24:50.960 you have not initiated contact with through an necromantic ritual. 0:24:50.680 --> 0:24:54.080 All right, So Swimer also fits this classification. 0:24:54.480 --> 0:24:57.840 Yes, yeah, that's the wild ghost. Meanwhile, what I would 0:24:57.880 --> 0:25:00.359 call the dial a ghost is a ghost call up 0:25:00.400 --> 0:25:03.280 through the rituals of necromancy. And so this might be 0:25:03.400 --> 0:25:07.240 somebody who's just otherwise resting comfortably in the underworld. You 0:25:07.280 --> 0:25:11.960 call them up through necromancy to get some information from them, 0:25:12.280 --> 0:25:15.600 or it could be one and the same as the 0:25:15.600 --> 0:25:19.320 wild ghost, but when you contact them through necromancy. Apparently 0:25:19.400 --> 0:25:23.520 the interaction is of a different sort. An entity called 0:25:23.600 --> 0:25:28.240 up through necromantic rituals is open to conversation and exchange. 0:25:29.240 --> 0:25:31.919 And I thought that it's interesting that these ghosts that 0:25:32.000 --> 0:25:35.920 there can be overlaps, So the same exact ghost, depending 0:25:35.960 --> 0:25:40.359 on circumstances, might be a wild, uncontrollable force that visits 0:25:40.400 --> 0:25:42.399 you in the night in your nightmares, or you know, 0:25:42.480 --> 0:25:45.639 haunts your home or haunts a place and terrifies people 0:25:45.680 --> 0:25:47.760 and just keeps attacking and there's nothing you can do. 0:25:48.080 --> 0:25:50.680 But you talk to the exact same ghost, same soul 0:25:51.000 --> 0:25:53.000 through an oracle of the dead, or by going to 0:25:53.040 --> 0:25:55.919 a tomb and raising them up or whatever, then you 0:25:55.960 --> 0:25:57.960 can talk to the ghost to figure out what's going 0:25:58.000 --> 0:26:00.520 on and figure out what can be done to to 0:26:00.600 --> 0:26:01.359 make it go away. 0:26:02.520 --> 0:26:06.560 Interesting. So now this makes me wonder if if if 0:26:06.600 --> 0:26:10.360 the ring tape, uh, the VHS tape is actually could 0:26:10.400 --> 0:26:11.960 if you could actually think of it as sort of 0:26:12.040 --> 0:26:16.720 automated and automated necromatic, right, it is a necromatic artifact 0:26:16.840 --> 0:26:19.800 that does all of the ritual but in a way 0:26:19.880 --> 0:26:23.439 that requires less effort on the part of the person 0:26:23.560 --> 0:26:24.000 using it. 0:26:24.840 --> 0:26:27.920 Okay, I'm trying to get there with you is can 0:26:27.960 --> 0:26:30.320 the can the girl in the ring ever be reasoned 0:26:30.320 --> 0:26:31.240 with or bargained with? 0:26:31.400 --> 0:26:34.320 Et? No, I don't think so, not in any version I've seen. 0:26:34.400 --> 0:26:37.480 You can try. And in terms of what kind of 0:26:37.520 --> 0:26:39.840 information she has to relay, I don't know. Maybe it 0:26:39.880 --> 0:26:43.520 is relayed through the tape. You know, these these visions. 0:26:43.560 --> 0:26:45.480 Just because a ghost is going to tell you stuff 0:26:45.480 --> 0:26:47.080 doesn't mean it has to make sense, right, I mean, 0:26:47.119 --> 0:26:49.960 they may speak cryptically, and then of course you get 0:26:49.960 --> 0:26:52.119 that phone call which just says that you're going to 0:26:52.160 --> 0:26:55.000 die in seven days, which isn't very helpful, but is 0:26:55.040 --> 0:26:58.119 a communication, okay. 0:26:58.280 --> 0:27:00.760 So often gives an example in this article of the 0:27:01.119 --> 0:27:05.080 Roman emperor Nero's mother Agrippina. So, according to this story, 0:27:05.119 --> 0:27:07.280 he murders his own mother. And by the way, the 0:27:07.359 --> 0:27:11.919 stories of her murder are very elaborate and conflicting and 0:27:11.960 --> 0:27:14.640 all that. So who knows what really happened in history there? 0:27:14.640 --> 0:27:16.520 But this is again, this is how the story is 0:27:16.600 --> 0:27:19.920 understood by like Roman historians writing the lives of the emperors. 0:27:21.920 --> 0:27:25.280 So the ghost repeatedly starts attacking Nero in the night, 0:27:25.640 --> 0:27:29.280 terrifying him with these visions and nightmares. So Nero sought 0:27:29.320 --> 0:27:32.239 the help of a Persian magas to call up her 0:27:32.240 --> 0:27:34.800 spirit so that he could make peace with it. 0:27:35.560 --> 0:27:41.000 Quick note on on magi and magas is of of 0:27:41.000 --> 0:27:45.879 of of Persia. I was reading a little bit about this. 0:27:45.920 --> 0:27:48.880 There's an episode from the Sasanian Empire where the first 0:27:48.880 --> 0:27:55.240 Sasanian emperor we've discussed him before, Adashir the first, upon 0:27:55.280 --> 0:27:58.760 ascending the throne, called on all the respected magi of 0:27:58.840 --> 0:28:01.560 the empire to gather and the total was said to 0:28:01.560 --> 0:28:05.440 be something like eighty thousand. So I was reading more 0:28:05.480 --> 0:28:08.160 about this, and when we talk about the magi, we're 0:28:08.160 --> 0:28:12.280 talking about the mas Dan magi, who were a priestly 0:28:12.480 --> 0:28:17.120 order of Zoroastrianism, so they were not expressly necromancers. They 0:28:17.119 --> 0:28:19.560 were into all sorts of things, you know, looking to 0:28:19.640 --> 0:28:21.879 the stars and so forth. But apparently some of their 0:28:21.920 --> 0:28:26.159 writings covered communication with the untethered spirits. 0:28:25.800 --> 0:28:27.680 Of the dead m okay. 0:28:28.240 --> 0:28:30.440 But to come back to this idea of like ghosts 0:28:30.480 --> 0:28:32.840 that haunt people and sort of can't be reasoned with 0:28:32.960 --> 0:28:36.240 when they appear for hauntings, But then you can reason 0:28:36.280 --> 0:28:38.000 with them if you do a ritual with like a 0:28:38.080 --> 0:28:40.720 megas or some other type of or an oracle of 0:28:40.760 --> 0:28:44.160 the dead, some kind of necromantic ritual, then you can 0:28:44.200 --> 0:28:47.160 figure out what they want. It strikes me that this 0:28:47.320 --> 0:28:50.440 duality does still appear in some of the ghost stories 0:28:50.440 --> 0:28:52.280 of today. Like you were talking about Rob, I mean, 0:28:52.480 --> 0:28:56.360 I think more generally about you know, a story where 0:28:56.720 --> 0:29:00.720 the ghost is just a purely bad vibe during the hauntings, 0:29:00.760 --> 0:29:03.920 it just appears to scare people, But in the context 0:29:03.960 --> 0:29:08.960 of a seance, the same ghost can be intelligibly conversed with. 0:29:09.800 --> 0:29:12.120 Yeah. I mean, in a way, it's almost like, Okay, 0:29:12.240 --> 0:29:17.680 this individual ghost or mortal is causing problems. Let's let's 0:29:17.720 --> 0:29:21.080 get serious about this. Let's have some legal proceedings, you know, 0:29:21.120 --> 0:29:24.640 the seance, the ritual of necromancy, whatever the details are. 0:29:24.680 --> 0:29:28.480 It is like, okay, let's bust out some rule based 0:29:29.200 --> 0:29:32.160 discussion of what's going on here and get to a solution. 0:29:32.520 --> 0:29:34.040 I think that's a good way of thinking about it. 0:29:34.040 --> 0:29:36.120 In a way, this might, you know, these rituals might 0:29:36.120 --> 0:29:39.040 be kind of like instituting a court proceeding in which 0:29:39.120 --> 0:29:40.240 the ghost must appear. 0:29:40.960 --> 0:29:43.400 Yeah, or it's it's like an intervention in some respects 0:29:43.440 --> 0:29:46.120 as well, Like the ghost shows up and is like 0:29:46.160 --> 0:29:48.800 all right, time to like terrify some people, and then 0:29:49.080 --> 0:29:51.040 then the ghost really, oh my goodness, this is one 0:29:51.040 --> 0:29:52.840 of those again. They're going to try and reason with me, 0:29:52.960 --> 0:29:53.320 all right. 0:29:53.760 --> 0:29:58.240 So anyway, all that falls into this category of information 0:29:58.560 --> 0:30:01.560 about what could be done to appease or send away 0:30:01.720 --> 0:30:08.120 the ghost, a very common aim of Greek and Roman necromancy. Sometimes, though, 0:30:08.120 --> 0:30:10.920 necromancy would just as you alluded to earlier, rob would 0:30:10.960 --> 0:30:14.440 be used to extract information from a ghost that the 0:30:14.480 --> 0:30:17.640 spirit of a person could practically be expected to know 0:30:17.720 --> 0:30:21.480 if consciousness continues after death. For example, somebody hide some 0:30:21.600 --> 0:30:24.680 money then dies without telling you where they hit it, 0:30:25.160 --> 0:30:27.200 you might need to call up a necromancer to get 0:30:27.240 --> 0:30:30.640 that information. And there are stories exactly like this. Though 0:30:31.160 --> 0:30:33.280 this one kind of puzzled me because I was thinking 0:30:33.320 --> 0:30:37.840 with specific practical information, like the location of a stash 0:30:37.840 --> 0:30:42.240 of silver or something. I wonder how the necromancer dealt 0:30:42.320 --> 0:30:45.560 with what I would assume was their general inability to 0:30:45.560 --> 0:30:48.760 provide useful, correct answers, you know, like maybe that have 0:30:48.800 --> 0:30:51.960 to be very vague or to be fair when we 0:30:52.000 --> 0:30:54.640 get to discussing what the actual rituals were in a minute, 0:30:54.800 --> 0:30:58.480 maybe it actually wasn't on the necromancer to give the information. 0:30:59.360 --> 0:31:00.800 Yeah, they would have to have some sort of an 0:31:00.800 --> 0:31:03.200 out like that, right, because again assuming that the next 0:31:03.360 --> 0:31:06.320 going with the assumption here that the necromancer cannot actually 0:31:06.360 --> 0:31:08.400 speak to the dead, and that in some of these 0:31:08.400 --> 0:31:12.720 other cases is essentially providing a like a therapeutic service. 0:31:13.640 --> 0:31:16.920 You know that they are, you know, guiding the recipient 0:31:16.960 --> 0:31:19.400 through some sort of a you know, essentially a religious 0:31:19.480 --> 0:31:22.400 ritual to put them at ease to you know, to 0:31:22.800 --> 0:31:26.160 help them honor the deceased, or whatever the specifics might be. 0:31:26.240 --> 0:31:28.920 But in this case, yeah, if there's an expectation of 0:31:29.040 --> 0:31:32.080 hidden treasure at the end of it, you know, the 0:31:32.280 --> 0:31:34.360 necromancer would be a fool to put themselves on the 0:31:34.360 --> 0:31:34.960 line like that. 0:31:35.520 --> 0:31:35.680 Right. 0:31:36.120 --> 0:31:38.480 They won't say it's under the third bush in the garden, 0:31:38.520 --> 0:31:40.480 because then you go dig it up and then be like, well, 0:31:40.520 --> 0:31:42.360 it's not there. Why'd you tell me that? 0:31:42.720 --> 0:31:44.560 Yeah, you'd have to put a spin out, Like the 0:31:44.600 --> 0:31:47.440 true hidden treasure was your friendship in life with this person, 0:31:47.480 --> 0:31:49.880 and that's what they value, and therefore they don't want 0:31:49.920 --> 0:31:50.959 to tell you where the money is. 0:31:51.360 --> 0:31:53.200 But again, we'll get to something in a minute that 0:31:53.240 --> 0:31:55.160 I think might actually shed some light on this and 0:31:55.560 --> 0:31:58.880 show how the person who is sort of the guide 0:31:59.000 --> 0:32:02.480 for this process would be off the hook. So but again, 0:32:02.840 --> 0:32:06.600 what would you be looking for from speaking to a ghost? 0:32:06.720 --> 0:32:09.760 You would get this practical information the dead person took 0:32:09.760 --> 0:32:11.680 with them to the grave, like you know, where did 0:32:11.680 --> 0:32:14.680 you hide something or anything like that. Also, if the 0:32:14.720 --> 0:32:18.000 person was a murder victim, they might you might consult 0:32:18.000 --> 0:32:19.240 them to find out who killed you. 0:32:20.240 --> 0:32:22.520 Oh, this is a classic one, and this puts a 0:32:22.520 --> 0:32:25.480 different kind of pressure on the role of the necromancer here, 0:32:25.560 --> 0:32:29.600 or the alleged necromancer, because of course what they say could, 0:32:29.680 --> 0:32:33.840 depending on the society and the legal system, be presented 0:32:33.840 --> 0:32:37.880 as proof of an individual's guilt in a murder. 0:32:38.360 --> 0:32:40.960 But apart from all this stuff, where again, if you 0:32:41.000 --> 0:32:44.400 assume that consciousness actually continues after death, you could assume 0:32:44.440 --> 0:32:47.360 the person would know all these things. What about this 0:32:47.440 --> 0:32:51.080 other stuff like why ghosts would know the future. We've 0:32:51.120 --> 0:32:55.520 looked at multiple examples of necromancy being used to consult 0:32:55.560 --> 0:32:59.160 spirits on what's going to happen in the future. It 0:32:59.240 --> 0:33:03.320 turns out Greek Roman necromancers also consulted ghosts for info 0:33:03.400 --> 0:33:06.480 about the future, for example, to predict the outcome of 0:33:06.600 --> 0:33:09.600 wars or power struggles a common thing people want to know. 0:33:10.200 --> 0:33:13.680 Why would the dead have the ability to predict the future. Well, 0:33:13.720 --> 0:33:16.600 Ogden actually does answer this question. He says, we don't 0:33:16.640 --> 0:33:20.000 know for sure, but there are a couple of big possibilities. 0:33:20.840 --> 0:33:25.040 Ogden writes, quote, One possibility is that some ancients believed 0:33:25.160 --> 0:33:28.280 the future was prepared in the realm of the dead. 0:33:28.720 --> 0:33:32.760 When Aeneas descends into the underworld in Virgil's Aeneid, he 0:33:32.880 --> 0:33:37.400 witnesses the marshaling of the souls of Rome's future heroes, 0:33:37.600 --> 0:33:40.840 even though they had not yet been born. Okay, so 0:33:40.880 --> 0:33:45.720 that's one. Ogden goes on quote Another possibility, many ancients, 0:33:45.840 --> 0:33:50.440 Plato among them, believed that a pure soul, one separated 0:33:50.480 --> 0:33:54.000 from the dull matter of the body, had great powers 0:33:54.040 --> 0:33:59.680 of perception and could understand the hidden processes of the universe. Okay, 0:33:59.720 --> 0:34:03.200 so that sort of helps answer my question if Ogden's 0:34:03.200 --> 0:34:06.320 correct about these two explanations. Here, the dead know the 0:34:06.360 --> 0:34:10.799 future because one of two things. Either the future is 0:34:10.840 --> 0:34:14.000 written in advance, so we are faded for certain things 0:34:14.000 --> 0:34:16.080 to happen to us, And the writing of the future 0:34:16.600 --> 0:34:20.200 takes place in the nether world, so dead people in 0:34:20.280 --> 0:34:24.360 hades are essentially hanging out in the writer's room for 0:34:24.480 --> 0:34:29.120 the upcoming season of the show. Or the second explanation is, 0:34:29.160 --> 0:34:33.080 if you subscribe to something like platonism, soul's rule and 0:34:33.120 --> 0:34:37.520 body's drool, and your current knowledge of the future is 0:34:37.800 --> 0:34:42.200 limited by the extent to which your body drools. Liberated souls, 0:34:42.320 --> 0:34:46.400 no longer attached to flesh, are sort of like gods 0:34:46.440 --> 0:34:50.400 in a way. They have extra powers of knowledge and perception, 0:34:50.600 --> 0:34:52.600 and we would all have these powers if we were 0:34:52.600 --> 0:34:54.920 liberated from the confines of our bodies. 0:34:55.320 --> 0:34:58.200 That one's in a really interesting because it also brings 0:34:58.280 --> 0:35:01.560 up some of the other examples of ancestor veneration and 0:35:01.640 --> 0:35:05.080 ancestor worship, you know, where it's like this was a 0:35:05.120 --> 0:35:09.400 real person in a given society or a given family, 0:35:09.440 --> 0:35:12.160 what have you. They have died and now they are 0:35:12.280 --> 0:35:15.720 still real, but in a different way and perhaps held 0:35:15.760 --> 0:35:17.920 to a like a put on a pedestal. You know, 0:35:17.960 --> 0:35:22.000 they're they're they they're they're they're given over to certain 0:35:22.040 --> 0:35:25.879 divine characteristics, even if they are not thought of expressly 0:35:25.960 --> 0:35:35.200 as a guy. 0:35:36.400 --> 0:35:40.040 All right, So that's Ogden's opinion about why ghosts would 0:35:40.080 --> 0:35:42.120 be expected to know the future and be able to 0:35:42.120 --> 0:35:45.600 answer your questions about it. But another interesting thing brought 0:35:45.680 --> 0:35:50.000 up in this article is he talks about location where 0:35:50.040 --> 0:35:54.920 would Greco Roman necromancy take place? And it seems there 0:35:54.920 --> 0:35:58.680 are two main answers for this. One is at at 0:35:58.680 --> 0:36:01.319 the Tomb of the East. And now that one makes 0:36:01.360 --> 0:36:03.719 sense if you're trying to call up a ghost of 0:36:04.040 --> 0:36:07.120 a dead person, where better to go than to their 0:36:07.200 --> 0:36:08.680 grave and do some. 0:36:08.719 --> 0:36:10.760 Kind of ritual there makes sense. 0:36:11.400 --> 0:36:13.560 But the second, and I got really interested in this, 0:36:14.360 --> 0:36:20.400 was that there were essentially some geographically identified special places 0:36:20.960 --> 0:36:24.319 where you could communicate with the dead. These were known 0:36:24.320 --> 0:36:27.680 as oracles of the dead. Now where would those be? Well, 0:36:27.719 --> 0:36:30.759 Ogden says, ancient sources tell us about four of them. 0:36:30.880 --> 0:36:34.720 There are two in modern day Greece, one in Italy 0:36:34.880 --> 0:36:38.240 and one in Turkey. And I did some additional digging 0:36:38.600 --> 0:36:40.840 for background information about a couple of these. So the 0:36:40.840 --> 0:36:44.759 first one he mentions is in northwest Greece, and this 0:36:44.800 --> 0:36:48.279 is what's known as the Acharusian Lake. So this is 0:36:48.320 --> 0:36:51.280 a lake, or perhaps I've seen in some sources mentioned 0:36:51.320 --> 0:36:53.839 as a swamp, a lake or a series of light 0:36:53.960 --> 0:36:58.560 lakes or swamp connected to the river Akron, which that 0:36:58.680 --> 0:37:02.919 river itself is very important in Greek visions of the afterlife. 0:37:02.920 --> 0:37:05.920 So there's a motif present in Greek and Roman mythology 0:37:05.960 --> 0:37:09.439 that the dead have to be carried across a river 0:37:09.920 --> 0:37:13.160 by a ghastly ferryman in order to reach Haiti's or 0:37:13.239 --> 0:37:16.359 the underworld. And in some sources this river is named 0:37:16.440 --> 0:37:19.600 as Styx, but in others it is the Akron. 0:37:20.080 --> 0:37:23.359 If memory serves both names, as separate rivers are used 0:37:23.360 --> 0:37:24.440 in Dante's Inferno. 0:37:24.840 --> 0:37:28.640 Oh that may be right, I don't recall, but interestingly 0:37:28.880 --> 0:37:32.640 I wanted to note this, so Akron. The Akron is 0:37:32.680 --> 0:37:36.799 at least one definite real river in northwest Greece, so 0:37:36.840 --> 0:37:39.200 there's just the Akron. You can go to that river now, 0:37:39.480 --> 0:37:43.120 whereas the Styx at core seems to be a mythological 0:37:43.200 --> 0:37:46.960 river in the underworld, but at some point it was 0:37:47.040 --> 0:37:50.719 also associated I think, with various real waterways as well, 0:37:50.800 --> 0:37:53.600 such as like a stream in Arcadia, but the Akron 0:37:53.640 --> 0:37:59.480 seems more concretely geographically located on this world. But anyway, 0:37:59.520 --> 0:38:02.319 the story goes. So at one of these lakes or 0:38:02.360 --> 0:38:06.719 swamps connected to the Akron, known as Acarusia, there was 0:38:06.760 --> 0:38:10.239 a lakeside district in which you could call up the 0:38:10.239 --> 0:38:13.440 spirits of the dead, and this was possible because of 0:38:13.480 --> 0:38:15.800 the way that the river and the lake were somehow 0:38:15.800 --> 0:38:19.440 physically connected to Hades and Rob. I've attached a couple 0:38:19.480 --> 0:38:22.160 of pictures I found online of the Akron River for 0:38:22.200 --> 0:38:24.279 you to look at here. You know, it's weird. I 0:38:24.280 --> 0:38:27.960 wonder if it's just an example of psychological priming, because 0:38:28.000 --> 0:38:30.800 I was expecting these to be associated with the underworld, 0:38:30.880 --> 0:38:32.360 but they do look kind of spooky to me. 0:38:32.840 --> 0:38:34.600 Yeah, yeah, same. I'm not sure how much of this 0:38:34.719 --> 0:38:37.400 is just me going into it with the expectation here, 0:38:37.440 --> 0:38:40.320 but yeah, in the first shot, there's this impression of narrowing, 0:38:40.440 --> 0:38:43.440 and I don't know, I'm kind of reminded of, you know, 0:38:43.840 --> 0:38:47.560 the classic painting The Island of the Dead there a 0:38:47.560 --> 0:38:50.040 little bit, but I could be reading too much into it. 0:38:50.200 --> 0:38:52.760 I mean, a river at the at the very least 0:38:52.800 --> 0:38:57.040 a river. This is a moving thing that goes somewhere else, 0:38:57.480 --> 0:39:00.239 so it's easy to approach it and think think of 0:39:00.239 --> 0:39:03.759 it as this thing that connects to some distant land, 0:39:03.760 --> 0:39:04.799 because it literally does. 0:39:05.360 --> 0:39:07.799 That's a good point. Okay, So second place for the 0:39:07.800 --> 0:39:10.440 Oracle of the Dead, this is way over on the 0:39:10.480 --> 0:39:14.279 western coast of the Italian Peninsula. This is Lake Avernus 0:39:14.440 --> 0:39:18.759 in Campagna. So once again this is a body of 0:39:18.840 --> 0:39:22.080 water associated with the entrance to the underworld. In this case, 0:39:22.440 --> 0:39:26.040 I thought it was geologically interesting because Avernus is the 0:39:26.160 --> 0:39:30.319 flooded crater of an extinct volcano, so this is in 0:39:30.320 --> 0:39:35.040 a region somewhat close to Naples. Allegedly, Lake of Vernas 0:39:35.480 --> 0:39:39.200 emitted fumes of sulfur sometimes, which could be why it 0:39:39.280 --> 0:39:40.920 was thought of as the entrance to the realm of 0:39:40.960 --> 0:39:44.040 the dead. And contrary to what you might expect. You know, 0:39:44.080 --> 0:39:46.840 you might think, Okay, so this lake is associated with 0:39:47.000 --> 0:39:50.600 the underworld, then maybe it's just this creepy abandoned place 0:39:50.640 --> 0:39:53.360 with nothing going on. But no, no, no, The area around 0:39:53.360 --> 0:39:56.799 Avernus was developed. It had temples and bathhouses and all 0:39:56.840 --> 0:39:59.960 sorts of stuff. In fact, in his article, Ogden tell 0:40:00.480 --> 0:40:02.440 what I thought was a very funny story about a 0:40:02.440 --> 0:40:07.440 British archaeologist who thought he had identified the ruins of 0:40:07.520 --> 0:40:11.359 the Avernus Oracle of the Dead in a Roman era 0:40:11.560 --> 0:40:14.880 tunnel near the lake. Came up with this whole scenario 0:40:15.160 --> 0:40:20.080 about how the oracle worked. Ogden Wright's quote, he speculated 0:40:20.080 --> 0:40:22.960 that visitors to the oracle were led through dark tunnels 0:40:23.000 --> 0:40:26.200 and across a hot, sulfurous spring that doubled as the 0:40:26.280 --> 0:40:30.440 river sticks Priestly assistants, he suggested, used lamps and wooden 0:40:30.480 --> 0:40:34.040 shadow puppets to project ghostly figures onto a wall in 0:40:34.080 --> 0:40:39.440 a kind of ancient vision of a Disneyland haunted house. So, okay, 0:40:39.480 --> 0:40:43.000 that sounds very interesting, but it turns out no, this 0:40:43.120 --> 0:40:46.520 tunnel was actually a service tunnel for a Roman bathhouse. 0:40:48.239 --> 0:40:50.560 And then there are a couple of other sites of 0:40:50.640 --> 0:40:53.839 oracles of the dead that were less well known. One 0:40:54.040 --> 0:40:57.400 is heracle A Pontica. That's the one on the south 0:40:57.440 --> 0:41:00.200 coast of the Black Sea, up on the north of 0:41:00.200 --> 0:41:02.080 what is today Turkey, or at the time would have 0:41:02.080 --> 0:41:06.279 been Anatolia. This is the place that Pausanias went to 0:41:06.440 --> 0:41:09.520 in that legend. And then the other one, the fourth 0:41:09.560 --> 0:41:14.360 one is Cape Tynern, which is down at the southern 0:41:14.719 --> 0:41:18.360 tip of the Peloponnesis. And I'm not sure about the 0:41:18.400 --> 0:41:21.000 Black Sea location, but I was looking up Cape Tynern 0:41:21.280 --> 0:41:24.400 and this one was also, according to some ancient sources, 0:41:24.800 --> 0:41:27.120 a gateway to the underworld. So it seems what a 0:41:27.160 --> 0:41:29.359 lot of these oracle of the dead. Locations have in 0:41:29.400 --> 0:41:34.239 common is they are thought to be in some sense 0:41:34.280 --> 0:41:36.839 of physical entryway into the underworld. 0:41:37.680 --> 0:41:40.640 Yeah, so it's not just a matter of having the 0:41:40.719 --> 0:41:43.959 rituals or the expertise. It's like, are you in close 0:41:44.080 --> 0:41:48.840 enough proximity to the underworld for that signal to reach them? 0:41:49.080 --> 0:41:49.239 Now. 0:41:49.280 --> 0:41:52.160 In the last episode, we talked about those ancient Mesopotamian 0:41:52.239 --> 0:41:58.960 tablets that shared specifics of their necromancy rituals, which involved incantations, 0:41:59.040 --> 0:42:01.759 so you had special words to say and appeals to 0:42:02.000 --> 0:42:05.560 specific gods who would sort of oversee the proceedings. Like 0:42:06.200 --> 0:42:09.520 one of the tablets specified that you know, this ritual 0:42:09.600 --> 0:42:12.280 is taking place under the auspices of the god Shamash. 0:42:13.320 --> 0:42:16.720 And then they also had recipes for potions and concoctions 0:42:16.760 --> 0:42:19.400 to make out of all kinds of stuff, you know, 0:42:19.520 --> 0:42:22.839 dust from across roads, the end of a frog's intestines, 0:42:22.960 --> 0:42:26.239 crab tallow, hair of a dog, and a bunch of 0:42:26.239 --> 0:42:29.520 other stuff. And in one case, I guess my favorite 0:42:29.560 --> 0:42:32.200 thing was the ritual that involved a skull that you 0:42:32.200 --> 0:42:35.960 would address as oh skull of skulls, and the implication 0:42:36.160 --> 0:42:38.960 is that the ghost would come into the skull and 0:42:39.080 --> 0:42:42.440 speak out of it somehow. In this case, I wonder 0:42:42.520 --> 0:42:45.560 what literally happened during these rituals, by the way, like 0:42:45.680 --> 0:42:49.120 did I think we don't really know, but I have 0:42:49.239 --> 0:42:52.640 to wonder, like did the skull somehow quote speak? If so, 0:42:52.920 --> 0:42:54.239 how was that accomplished? 0:42:55.239 --> 0:42:57.160 Yeah, because on one hand, you could have a scenario 0:42:57.200 --> 0:43:02.400 where some manner of puppetry was even but I guess 0:43:02.719 --> 0:43:05.360 perhaps more believable, at least by modern standards, would be 0:43:05.440 --> 0:43:08.279 just sort of a physical focus of what's happening. So 0:43:08.560 --> 0:43:13.000 perhaps the necromancer is listening to the skull, and you 0:43:13.040 --> 0:43:17.000 know that becomes the object of focus during the proceedings. 0:43:17.560 --> 0:43:17.799 Right. 0:43:18.000 --> 0:43:22.440 So a question is do we have physical descriptions of 0:43:22.440 --> 0:43:25.919 what would happen during these rituals, during the ghost interactions 0:43:26.160 --> 0:43:29.200 for Greco Roman necromancy, And the answer is yes, we 0:43:29.280 --> 0:43:32.640 do have some descriptions. One example Ogden gives that I 0:43:32.680 --> 0:43:36.839 thought was interesting is the Greek playwright Escalus, in a 0:43:36.920 --> 0:43:40.680 fragment of an otherwise lost work, describes a scene at 0:43:40.719 --> 0:43:44.520 a lakeside oracle of the dead where blood from a 0:43:44.600 --> 0:43:48.200 black sheep is poured into the water, and the implication 0:43:48.400 --> 0:43:50.880 is that the ghosts would come up from the underworld 0:43:51.040 --> 0:43:54.360 through the waters of the lake and drink the sheep's blood. 0:43:54.880 --> 0:43:57.480 And this is interesting in that it connects to that 0:43:57.560 --> 0:44:01.600 scene in Homer where it's implied that or not even implied, 0:44:01.640 --> 0:44:05.600 it's explicitly stated that giving a ghost sheep's blood or 0:44:05.680 --> 0:44:09.879 ram's blood to drink would make it sort of temporarily 0:44:10.000 --> 0:44:12.840 beefed up enough to party, Like now it can talk. 0:44:13.440 --> 0:44:16.279 And I think this is really interesting, this idea that 0:44:16.320 --> 0:44:19.920 you had to feed blood to a ghost so that 0:44:20.000 --> 0:44:23.839 it could, i don't know, become substantial or empowered enough 0:44:23.840 --> 0:44:24.840 to interact with you. 0:44:25.440 --> 0:44:28.160 Yeah, I mean it's the dead or lacking blood, and 0:44:28.480 --> 0:44:31.080 give them blood and they can they can do living 0:44:31.120 --> 0:44:33.319 things again, at least for a very short period of time. 0:44:33.640 --> 0:44:35.799 But finally coming back to that issue of like what 0:44:36.000 --> 0:44:39.040 form does the delivery of information from the dead take 0:44:39.360 --> 0:44:43.799 in these Greco Roman rituals, like how does the necromancer 0:44:43.880 --> 0:44:46.759 have to deliver the information? And in that case, how 0:44:46.760 --> 0:44:50.920 do they deal with like the information when you know, 0:44:51.040 --> 0:44:56.279 not being specific or accurate. Well, Ogden says that the 0:44:56.360 --> 0:44:58.760 contact with the ghost at an oracle of the Dead 0:44:59.400 --> 0:45:04.839 was done through dream incubation. Oh, this makes sense of things, right, 0:45:04.920 --> 0:45:07.800 So this is similar to what was done at multiple 0:45:07.880 --> 0:45:11.120 kinds of temples and shrines in the ancient world. One 0:45:11.160 --> 0:45:14.080 example we've talked about in the show before was the 0:45:14.320 --> 0:45:17.680 shrines of the healing god Asclepias, where you would want 0:45:17.719 --> 0:45:21.400 to get healed from a disease or something troubling your body, 0:45:21.880 --> 0:45:24.080 and you would to seek a cure. You might go 0:45:24.120 --> 0:45:26.600 to a shrine of Asclepias and you would do some 0:45:26.719 --> 0:45:29.200 kind of ritual, probably make a sacrifice or pay a 0:45:29.239 --> 0:45:32.720 fee or something, and then you would go to sleep, 0:45:32.920 --> 0:45:35.719 and then you would have a dream there where Asclepias 0:45:35.800 --> 0:45:40.319 would deliver to you information in the dream about what 0:45:40.360 --> 0:45:40.880 you could. 0:45:40.719 --> 0:45:43.680 Do to cure your disease. Yeah, okay. 0:45:44.040 --> 0:45:47.000 In the case of the necromancer oracles, you would do 0:45:47.120 --> 0:45:49.960 the prescribed rituals. You probably make some kind of sacrifice. 0:45:50.000 --> 0:45:52.640 It seems very likely it might involve like a spilling 0:45:52.680 --> 0:45:55.520 of some kind of animal blood to feed to the ghost, 0:45:55.719 --> 0:45:58.680 and then you would go to sleep in the designated area, 0:45:58.760 --> 0:46:00.520 and then the ghost would come to you in a 0:46:00.600 --> 0:46:04.520 dream and tell you what you needed to know. And 0:46:04.800 --> 0:46:07.520 this is interesting in multiple ways. Number One, it highlights 0:46:07.560 --> 0:46:11.640 this thing in ancient Greek thinking, where sleep was sort 0:46:11.640 --> 0:46:15.000 of a state thought of as in some ways analogous 0:46:15.080 --> 0:46:20.480 to or halfway to death. So you're sort of going 0:46:20.560 --> 0:46:24.320 out of the land of the living into this half 0:46:24.440 --> 0:46:27.640 dead state of sleep in order to meet the ghost, 0:46:27.719 --> 0:46:31.000 you know, as it comes out to deliver you information. 0:46:31.120 --> 0:46:33.319 But then also in a practical sense, I could see 0:46:33.320 --> 0:46:36.279 how this would mean that the priest or whatever the 0:46:36.320 --> 0:46:39.160 professional working at the Oracle of the Dead is doing 0:46:39.239 --> 0:46:42.600 like they're not personally on the hook for like giving 0:46:42.640 --> 0:46:45.000 you the information you need. And it might be in 0:46:45.040 --> 0:46:47.960 some cases they did provide information, but it seems like 0:46:48.000 --> 0:46:50.920 in a lot of cases they use dream incubation where 0:46:51.160 --> 0:46:52.680 it's all internal to you. 0:46:53.120 --> 0:46:56.839 Yeah, it's like they're just helping to facilitate the conversation 0:46:57.080 --> 0:46:59.640 and then the conversation is left to you and your 0:46:59.719 --> 0:47:02.520 dream state. And I guess in a more like you know, 0:47:03.320 --> 0:47:08.360 skeptical approach here, Yeah, they're simply priming your brain for 0:47:08.760 --> 0:47:11.960 some sort of a dream that could be either in 0:47:12.000 --> 0:47:15.360 and of itself seemingly meaningful, or could be picked apart 0:47:15.400 --> 0:47:19.280 in made meaningful due to the priming. So it's interesting 0:47:19.320 --> 0:47:21.680 how we kind of end up at the end of 0:47:21.680 --> 0:47:26.239 this episode in similar territory to our previous look at 0:47:26.480 --> 0:47:30.600 different cultures and times in which the dream world was 0:47:30.600 --> 0:47:34.520 given special significance. You know, I mean, I'm not sure 0:47:34.560 --> 0:47:36.799 you could necessarily make the case here, because again this 0:47:36.840 --> 0:47:41.040 could be maybe thought of as an important right, but 0:47:41.160 --> 0:47:45.480 not like a prime motivator in the trajectory of a 0:47:45.520 --> 0:47:48.279 given culture. But still, you see, like the importance of 0:47:49.000 --> 0:47:52.520 the dream space to individuals and trying to figure out 0:47:52.800 --> 0:47:53.640 their problems. 0:47:54.120 --> 0:47:57.240 Well, yeah, and it makes me see another parallel between 0:47:57.520 --> 0:47:59.759 sleep and death here is that it seems like they're 0:48:00.080 --> 0:48:06.319 both states in which people's capacities are to some extent diminished, 0:48:06.320 --> 0:48:10.319 but in other ways magnified. You know that, like like 0:48:10.719 --> 0:48:13.799 during sleep you are closer to death, and so of 0:48:13.840 --> 0:48:18.560 course you know your your your consciousness is diminished in 0:48:18.600 --> 0:48:21.799 a way your of course, your your physical potency, like 0:48:21.840 --> 0:48:24.000 you're not moving around while you're asleep, you're prone and 0:48:24.040 --> 0:48:28.680 all that, So you are diminished or reduced in one extent. 0:48:28.719 --> 0:48:31.120 But also it is the place where you have access 0:48:31.239 --> 0:48:35.040 to wisdom beyond what's available to your mortal mind. 0:48:36.000 --> 0:48:38.640 Yeah, and now, of course I can't help but be 0:48:38.719 --> 0:48:41.480 reminded of Freddy Krueger and all this. It's easy to 0:48:41.480 --> 0:48:44.719 think of Freddy Krueger as a monster, but and you know, 0:48:44.719 --> 0:48:47.439 he's a monster in the general sense of the word, 0:48:47.480 --> 0:48:50.880 but he is a ghosts. He has a vngul ghost 0:48:51.440 --> 0:48:54.839 that then appears in your dreams. And I guess by 0:48:54.920 --> 0:48:58.080 virtue of having access to dreams, he has privileged information 0:48:58.120 --> 0:49:00.839 about individuals. I don't know that anyone ever really ask 0:49:00.960 --> 0:49:02.960 him for advice on anything, though, I. 0:49:02.920 --> 0:49:04.239 Mean it would be funny if you did. 0:49:04.280 --> 0:49:05.919 I don't know what kind of advice he would give. 0:49:06.440 --> 0:49:08.439 I mean, that could be a whole sequel right there 0:49:08.480 --> 0:49:12.920 where somebody or some group or like, look, we need 0:49:13.320 --> 0:49:15.800 we need the help of someone with access to dreams. 0:49:16.400 --> 0:49:19.480 I guess specifically teenager dreams. I guess maybe this would 0:49:19.520 --> 0:49:21.920 make sense for if you were designing a product to 0:49:21.960 --> 0:49:24.839 appeal to teenagers, they're like, who knows teenagers? 0:49:25.200 --> 0:49:27.640 Freddy Krueger, you know what's cool? Yeah? 0:49:27.880 --> 0:49:31.480 Yeah, Oh, to get advice on sweaters, it'd be like, 0:49:31.600 --> 0:49:34.440 Freddy Krueger, is this sweater cool? Is this what's going 0:49:34.480 --> 0:49:37.000 to be hip this season? And he's always just like 0:49:37.120 --> 0:49:39.160 green and red, that's what's going to be in. 0:49:39.640 --> 0:49:41.880 He knows it's a classic look and it'll eventually, you know, 0:49:41.960 --> 0:49:44.520 eventually the trends will come back around to it. 0:49:44.840 --> 0:49:47.040 Okay, but in a cap part two right there. 0:49:47.239 --> 0:49:47.720 I believe. 0:49:47.800 --> 0:49:50.080 So yeah, we'll be back for at least a third 0:49:50.120 --> 0:49:53.480 episode on necromancy, and in the meantime reach out to us. 0:49:53.480 --> 0:49:56.160 We'd love to hear your thoughts on these various and 0:49:56.320 --> 0:50:01.640 ancient accounts of necromancy or things that could described as 0:50:01.680 --> 0:50:04.960 a necromantic and scope also if you have thoughts in 0:50:05.040 --> 0:50:09.000 some of the more pop culture things that we've mentioned here, 0:50:09.040 --> 0:50:12.160 if you have thoughts on Freddy Krueger, Slimer or The Ring, 0:50:13.520 --> 0:50:15.960 certainly write in. I mean, there's ultimately a lot you 0:50:16.000 --> 0:50:20.520 could dissect in the original Ghostbusters, where you have ghosts 0:50:20.600 --> 0:50:24.000 that resemble the people as they were in life, and 0:50:24.040 --> 0:50:26.799 then ghosts that no longer look like human beings. You 0:50:26.920 --> 0:50:31.440 also have what ancient Mesopotamian gods entering into the picture 0:50:31.520 --> 0:50:35.319 with their beast like servants. So there's a lot to 0:50:35.400 --> 0:50:36.040 unwrap there. 0:50:36.440 --> 0:50:38.320 Many knew what it was to roast in the belly 0:50:38.360 --> 0:50:39.879 of a slore that day. 0:50:40.239 --> 0:50:44.600 Indeed, all right, a reminder that's stuff to blow your mind. 0:50:44.680 --> 0:50:47.359 Is primarily a science podcast, though of course we get 0:50:47.360 --> 0:50:51.960 into into culture and history as well as especially obvious 0:50:51.960 --> 0:50:55.240 in these episodes. We do listener mail episodes. On Mondays, 0:50:55.239 --> 0:50:58.320 we do a short form Monster Factor or Artifact episode 0:50:58.360 --> 0:51:00.520 on Wednesdays, and on Fridays we set aside most serious 0:51:00.520 --> 0:51:03.000 concerns to just talk about a weird movie on Weird 0:51:03.080 --> 0:51:06.799 House Cinema. Oh and one more thing. If you use 0:51:06.840 --> 0:51:09.960 any of the various social media accounts and you follow us, 0:51:09.960 --> 0:51:12.280 you may notice that there's a little more life than those. Recently, 0:51:12.320 --> 0:51:16.280 we have some people managing those for us once again. 0:51:16.640 --> 0:51:21.719 And you also might notice some updated photos of me 0:51:21.800 --> 0:51:24.840 and Joe. Well, that's because we visited the Museum of 0:51:24.840 --> 0:51:28.520 Illusions in Atlanta. We were there what Thursday, September twenty first, 0:51:28.520 --> 0:51:32.960 twenty twenty three. We have some great new photos and 0:51:33.480 --> 0:51:36.200 I recommend that place to anyone who is in Atlanta 0:51:36.280 --> 0:51:38.680 looking to engage with some illusions. It's a very fun place. 0:51:38.920 --> 0:51:42.400 Huge thanks to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. If 0:51:42.440 --> 0:51:44.040 you would like to get in touch with us with 0:51:44.120 --> 0:51:47.160 feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a 0:51:47.200 --> 0:51:49.400 topic for the future, or just to say hello, you 0:51:49.400 --> 0:51:52.400 can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your 0:51:52.480 --> 0:52:00.680 Mind dot com. 0:52:00.840 --> 0:52:03.759 Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 0:52:03.840 --> 0:52:07.680 more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 0:52:07.760 --> 0:52:24.120 or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.