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Speaker 1: Welcome to Had of Money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt, and

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Speaker 1: today we're talking from Monk to money Monster with Doug Linum.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Joel, So I don't think it's a requirement to

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Speaker 2: have the lived reality of life.

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Speaker 3: Experience to be able to speak to our particular subject.

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Speaker 2: But I think he can certainly help, which means our

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Speaker 2: guest today, Doug Liman, is someone who we are very

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Speaker 2: excited to speak with as his incredibly varied life as

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Speaker 2: well as career, it spans more than I thought was

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Speaker 2: possible in a lifetime. So he's been broke and bankrupt

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Speaker 2: to living a comfortable life. He's taken vals of poverty

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Speaker 2: to helping oversee over over two hundred and fifty million

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Speaker 2: dollars in assets as a money manager. He's graduated at

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Speaker 2: the top of his class as a marine to living

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Speaker 2: for twenty years as a Benedictine monk. We've got plenty

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Speaker 2: of questions for him.

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Speaker 1: We're also going to get into his latest book, Taming

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Speaker 1: Your Money Monster, Nine Paths to Money Mastery with the Enneagram,

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Speaker 1: which comes out next month. Doug, he takes spiritual wisdom,

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Speaker 1: he blends it with some psychological insight all and an

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Speaker 1: effort to help folks to successfully handle their money to

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Speaker 1: reach their financial goals. Doug Lineham, thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for joining us today on the podcast.

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Speaker 4: Thanks guys, it's an honor to be here.

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Speaker 1: We're glad to have you, Doug. First question we got

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Speaker 1: to ask, got to get out of the way. We

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Speaker 1: ask everyone who comes on is what do you like

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Speaker 1: to splore? John Matt and I are drinking a craft

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Speaker 1: beer and some people are like, you spend how much

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Speaker 1: on a bottle or a cannon of craft beer?

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Speaker 3: A very nice one from for months? That's right, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: this is good here.

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Speaker 1: But what's that for you? Where people might be like,

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Speaker 1: what what are you thinking over there? Man?

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Speaker 4: I probably it would be art. Like I have a

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Speaker 4: lot of like art in my house, and I have

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Speaker 4: a hard time. It's just too much. Like you know,

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Speaker 4: I don't I don't always go like like, you know,

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Speaker 4: high and original stuff. I'm not like Castas or anything

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Speaker 4: like that. But you know, but I do like Picasso

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Speaker 4: and like so you know, I get reprints mostly, but

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Speaker 4: I try to get really high quality reprints of famous art.

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Speaker 4: And whenever I go, I to pick stuff up, and

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Speaker 4: you know, my walls are just covered in an art. Okay,

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Speaker 4: there's a guy named Ladimirkush who's who's an artist from

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Speaker 4: Russian artist and lives in Paris, And anytime I come

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Speaker 4: across one of his stuff, I just I.

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Speaker 3: Gotta grab it. Okay.

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Speaker 2: So when you're grabbing his stuff, are those originals since

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Speaker 2: he's not nearly as well known.

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Speaker 1: Okay, even still, see, if you're gonna go for originals

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Speaker 1: like I do, you gotta go with the super cheap

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Speaker 1: folk art variety that's.

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Speaker 3: That's trained living out in the cabin in the woods.

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Speaker 3: Like you don't have a.

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Speaker 4: Plenty of that too? Yeah, I got plenty of I do.

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Speaker 4: I do have lots of originals. You're just not like

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Speaker 4: the Yeah, but not the you know, still find a museum.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I got it all right, Joel, I only have

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Speaker 2: to look in look into some Vladimir push Doug. In

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Speaker 2: my opinion, considering or in your case, joining the Marines,

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Speaker 2: like you graduated top of your class, that seems like

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Speaker 2: a path of that.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, quasi.

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Speaker 2: Reasonable, Like there's there's there's millions of folks out there

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Speaker 2: who have joined the military, who who have served our country.

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Speaker 2: But when it comes to joining, uh, I don't even know, like,

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Speaker 2: how do you join, like how do you become a monk?

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Speaker 2: And specifically, I'm curious what caused you to go in

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Speaker 2: that direction after having graduated at the top of your class.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's a big question. The simple answer is, and

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Speaker 4: I think I joined the Marines to kind of impress

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Speaker 4: my father. I wanted to prove to him that I

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Speaker 4: was a manly man who could do manly things and

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Speaker 4: didn't really work. He didn't, he didn't bother showing up

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Speaker 4: to my graduation. And I also had a bit of

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Speaker 4: a kind of a spiritual epiphany at the time, and

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Speaker 4: I realized that, you know, unresolved anger issues and high

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Speaker 4: explosives were probably a really bad combination and that maybe

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Speaker 4: might not be the best career choice for me. So

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Speaker 4: I decided to turn down my commission as an officer

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Speaker 4: in the Marines and went and just ran out. After that,

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Speaker 4: joined a Benedictine monastery. And you know, it was also

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Speaker 4: I did it for a couple of reasons. One of course,

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Speaker 4: I was looking for a higher calling and something that

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Speaker 4: would give me all the things I loved about the Marines,

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Speaker 4: like they spread a corps, the camaraderie says a purpose

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Speaker 4: and structure that I liked without necessarily having to go

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Speaker 4: out there and kill people for a living, so that

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Speaker 4: that seemed like a way trade up. And it was

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Speaker 4: also a great way to really annoying my parents, Like

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Speaker 4: it just absolutely flabbergasted them, Like I couldn't have picked anything.

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Speaker 4: Being a MinC was about as radically different from the

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Speaker 4: way I was raised as you could imagine, and you know,

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Speaker 4: it did a really good job of pissing my parents off,

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Speaker 4: so that was a bonus.

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Speaker 3: So there was like a sinful desire.

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Speaker 2: There was, yeah, like a sense of rebellion, of that

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Speaker 2: rebellious spirit, so that that caused you to do that.

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Speaker 2: But it's one thing to have done it for just like, okay,

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Speaker 2: you end up doing that for a couple of years,

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Speaker 2: like you turned down your offer or your post or

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Speaker 2: something like that post graduation. It's one thing to do

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Speaker 2: that and maybe just do it for like a couple

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Speaker 2: of years, but you did it for all long time,

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Speaker 2: Like this is yeah, this wasn't just sort of like

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Speaker 2: a like a wild hair. This was something something that

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Speaker 2: you stuck with for like two decades, is that right?

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Speaker 4: That's right? Twenty years And it was a teaching order,

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Speaker 4: so I was. At the same time, I was teaching

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Speaker 4: in a private school. I was the head of a

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Speaker 4: math department and and yeah, it was it was a

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Speaker 4: good life. I mean, there were there are parts about

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Speaker 4: it that I really loved. And then after a while

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Speaker 4: things kind of got a little stale. And I think

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Speaker 4: the struggle with all monasteries is that most of them

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Speaker 4: are dying, Like monastic life is just not that popular anymore.

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Speaker 4: And at the time, I was the youngest monk by

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Speaker 4: almost thirty years, and there were really no new monks

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Speaker 4: coming into the community, and it just got older and older.

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Speaker 4: It was like, well if at some point, you know,

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Speaker 4: this is like you're on a treadmill and people are

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Speaker 4: falling off and there's no one coming up behind me, Like, well,

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Speaker 4: how is this going to work? Like what's my life

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Speaker 4: going to be like if I stay? And yeah, and

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Speaker 4: it was basically I eventually just ended up being, you know,

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Speaker 4: doing hospice care essentially, and then I'd be the last

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Speaker 4: one standing and that just wasn't and the community kind

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Speaker 4: of got a little rigid and a little you know,

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Speaker 4: it had its other issues, other issues as well, but

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Speaker 4: eventually I realized that this was not going to be

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Speaker 4: this was up the place. It's kind of a marriage,

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Speaker 4: you know, you kind of it's good at the beginning,

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Speaker 4: and then it's not good at the end, and you

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Speaker 4: stick it out hoping it's going to get better, and

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Speaker 4: then it doesn't, and eventually you just kind of got

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Speaker 4: to pull the plug. So that's that's kind of what happened.

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Speaker 4: And and then of course I went into finance after that,

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Speaker 4: So that's another story.

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Speaker 1: What was the tell me about like the declining monastic life?

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Speaker 1: And you talk about in your first book the financial

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Speaker 1: difficulties that your monastery was facing, and it forced you

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Speaker 1: to kind of have to confront money head on in

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Speaker 1: a way that you you never had to before in fact,

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Speaker 1: like army or you know, life in the Marines, and

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Speaker 1: then and then monastic life kind of insulated you in

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Speaker 1: some ways from having to think about money too much.

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Speaker 3: Is that right?

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Speaker 4: Well? No, okay, yes, and no, I mean that was

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Speaker 4: the hope. I mean, I certainly joined those I was

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Speaker 4: hoping that those would be a lifestyles that would allow

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Speaker 4: me to avoid the world of money because I was

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Speaker 4: really you know, I hated thinking and dealing with about

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Speaker 4: everything to deal with finance. I just was kind of

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Speaker 4: allergic to it because of the way my family treated

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Speaker 4: money growing up, which was to weaponize it. My family,

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Speaker 4: you know, my father was a fairly successful executive for

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Speaker 4: an oil company, and and in my in my childhood environment,

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Speaker 4: I assumed that kind of money was the root of

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Speaker 4: all evil or something like that. It was just so

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Speaker 4: that's kind of why I did run away to the marine,

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Speaker 4: so wise to trying to get away from money. But unfortunately,

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Speaker 4: about three years into the monastic journey, the community went bankrupt,

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Speaker 4: and so like somebody had to figure out this. It

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Speaker 4: turns out if you live in a community where everybody

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Speaker 4: hates dealing with money, like, it just doesn't end well,

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Speaker 4: this is not going to work. And we basically took

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Speaker 4: the vial of poverty a little too seriously, and so

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Speaker 4: it was a real mess. Like and so here I

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Speaker 4: was joining them, honestly hoping to get hoping to get

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Speaker 4: away from money, and I end up having to deal

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Speaker 4: with it more than I would have if I hadn't

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Speaker 4: joined the monastery, because you know, it was just it

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Speaker 4: was just an absolute train wreck. And so it took

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Speaker 4: me a couple of years to figure that problem out,

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Speaker 4: but I did and got the community on you know,

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Speaker 4: solid financial ground. And then because I was the head

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Speaker 4: of a math department at the school, I decided to

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Speaker 4: start offering economics and personal flience courses to the kids

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Speaker 4: because I thought one of the real problems in our

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Speaker 4: society is we don't teach kids about money. We don't

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Speaker 4: teach them how to the basics of budgeting and you know,

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Speaker 4: how to earn, save, and invest, all these things that

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Speaker 4: are just basic skills that everyone needs to have. And

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Speaker 4: so I did that well for maybe ten twelve years

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Speaker 4: while I was teaching. And then just then what got interesting.

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Speaker 4: As I was doing a class project with the kids

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Speaker 4: and for fun, I thought, well, let's just open up

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Speaker 4: the school retirement plan and show the kids how retirement

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Speaker 4: plans work. And I did that, and as soon as

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Speaker 4: I opened it up and started looking around, it was

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Speaker 4: a complete train wreck, Like if for those who were

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Speaker 4: familiar with the world of finance. There was essentially no

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Speaker 4: fiduciary oversight. The fees were very high on the funds,

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Speaker 4: the performance was terrible. There was the thing hadn't been managed.

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Speaker 4: No one had done any maintenance on this plan for

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Speaker 4: twenty years, so it was completely adrift. And I'm like oh,

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Speaker 4: this is a nightmare. And so that I went looking

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Speaker 4: around for a company that could do a better job.

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Speaker 4: And then what I realized is that almost every school,

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Speaker 4: every retirement plan, and almost every private and public school

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Speaker 4: in this country is an absolute mess. It's a disaster.

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Speaker 4: And I couldn't find a company that I really liked

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Speaker 4: that would do a good job on this to solve

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Speaker 4: this problem. And so I was, well, that's a pain point,

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Speaker 4: and I know how to do it. So I had

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Speaker 4: this crazy idea is I'll start my own investment advisory

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Speaker 4: firm while I'm a monk, and so I did. So

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Speaker 4: I started my own firm to solve that problem, to

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Speaker 4: build better uh retirement plans were schools and colleges. And

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Speaker 4: then this just by and then of course I left

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Speaker 4: the monastery, started this business and I and then I

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Speaker 4: actually merged my firm very quickly after that with a

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Speaker 4: larger company in Santa Fe. But what was really just

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Speaker 4: bizarre stroke of luck is right when I was launching

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Speaker 4: this business, the New York Times did a six piece

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Speaker 4: expos on the problem of teaching retirement plans across the country.

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Speaker 4: So every month they were doing this hard hitting article

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Speaker 4: about how awful the school retirement plans were. And then

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Speaker 4: I just reached out to them on Facebook and said, hey,

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Speaker 4: I love what you guys. I love these articles. I

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Speaker 4: here's me, this crazy monk starting this business to try

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Speaker 4: to solve this problem. And they loved the idea. So

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Speaker 4: they flew Ron Lieber, who's the financial column the columnists

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Speaker 4: for the financial section of the New York Times, flew

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Speaker 4: out to Santa Fe did spend the day with me,

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Speaker 4: did a big piece that went on the cover of

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Speaker 4: the Business section of the Times, and that went viral.

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Speaker 4: That just launched my career in finance. So that's kind

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Speaker 4: of it's kind of how I got to that point

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Speaker 4: in my life.

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Speaker 2: So it was almost out of a I mean it

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Speaker 2: was necessary, Like, like you said, there is a pain point,

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Speaker 2: but it's something that y'all are facing there as a

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Speaker 2: monastery in and of itself. We've got more questions here

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Speaker 2: specifically too about your monastic journey. But just as like

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Speaker 2: a small tangent, like it sounded like the fees were

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Speaker 2: the worst part about the retirement plan there for the monks,

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Speaker 2: Like I almost picture you cracking this thing open, and

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Speaker 2: it basically had fees from twenty thirty years ago, like

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Speaker 2: from the eighties, and like, would you say that that's

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Speaker 2: one of the best advancements of retirement funds and the

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Speaker 2: ability for individuals to manage their own retirement, to manage

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Speaker 2: their own iras is the fact that, yes, we have

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Speaker 2: total control, but just we've seen fees decrease significantly. I'm

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Speaker 2: curious if that's what you saw when you took a

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Speaker 2: look there.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, fee compression is great, Like fees are going

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Speaker 4: down funds. But also like in a retirement plan, you

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Speaker 4: don't have infinite choice, Like you have have control over

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Speaker 4: your investments as the individual, but the plant administrator, whoever's

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Speaker 4: running the show, it gets to pick what funds. You

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Speaker 4: get to choose from inside the plan. And so yeah,

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Speaker 4: so the fees were high, but the funds were terrible.

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Speaker 4: They should have just been you know, some of those

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Speaker 4: should have been mothballed, you know, decades ago. So it's

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Speaker 4: it's fees, it's it's performance. I would say those are

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Speaker 4: the two biggies. But there's lots of other subsets my problems.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned taking the valve poverty too seriously, and when

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Speaker 1: you look at kind of like church history and stuff

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Speaker 1: like that, there are you know, the desert Fathers or

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Speaker 1: whatever who took a valve poverty to the extreme, And

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Speaker 1: there have been many examples, I think throughout the ages

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Speaker 1: and different religious sects. But now you're like a money manager,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of the exact opposite of a valve

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Speaker 1: poverty or feels or feels like it. They feel like antitheses, right,

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Speaker 1: So what's your take on that. I was you're reading

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Speaker 1: a book on spiritual disciplines recently, and the author talked

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Speaker 1: about how like, hey actually in the hands of Christians

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Speaker 1: doing good work with that money. It's like that's the

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Speaker 1: best place that money could be. So I'm curious to

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Speaker 1: hear your your take on that duality or seeming contradiction there.

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Speaker 4: Well, I'd agree with you the last thing you just

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Speaker 4: just said, which is that so money is power, right,

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Speaker 4: and it's also morally neutral. Money isn't good or bad.

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Speaker 4: It depends on how you're using it. So if you

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Speaker 4: if you take all the good people in the world,

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Speaker 4: the Christians of the world, and you take the money

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Speaker 4: from them, and you take the power from them, then

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Speaker 4: it's all going to people who you know, maybe I'm

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Speaker 4: not saying they're bad people, but you're you're essentially what

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Speaker 4: came to mind, sorry is like basically says a castrating

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Speaker 4: yourself and your ability to like make a real big

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Speaker 4: difference in the world in terms of you know, having

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Speaker 4: this impact, that money is one of the best tools

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Speaker 4: we have for love and service possible. Now that now,

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Speaker 4: I don't want to take away from the people who

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Speaker 4: take a vile of poverty either, Like I think this

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Speaker 4: gets maybe gets into my new book, what I call

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Speaker 4: my new book is Taming your money Monster. And there

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Speaker 4: are people who take a poverty for the right reasons,

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Speaker 4: and they take it because they want to live in

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Speaker 4: solidarity with the poor and the oppressed, and I think

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Speaker 4: that's extremely noble. But then there are people like me

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Speaker 4: and the monks in the monastery who took a viole

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Speaker 4: of poverty because of their money issues, because they were

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Speaker 4: avoidant of money. They there was unconscious they were doing it.

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Speaker 4: On this there's some good obviously good reasons on the surface,

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Speaker 4: but deep down it was like this rebellion against my parents,

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Speaker 4: rebellion against society. It was like it wasn't a healthy

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Speaker 4: rejection of money. It was an unhealthy rejection of money.

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Speaker 4: And on the same side, you can have a healthy

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Speaker 4: relationship to money and have a lot of it, and

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Speaker 4: you can have an unhealthy relationship to money and have

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Speaker 4: a lot of it. It's really about what's going on

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Speaker 4: in unconscious and your conscious and most importantly your unconscious mind.

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Speaker 4: What what's driving you here and motivating you? And then

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Speaker 4: what's the outcome is it? Is it outcome going to

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Speaker 4: be more love and service in the world than great

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Speaker 4: if it's more selfishness and more greed or more like

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Speaker 4: so like for example, you know, we obviously can think

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Speaker 4: of examples like you know, Gordon Gecko on Wall Street

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Speaker 4: and you know, all these people who were going after

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Speaker 4: money in a horrible, greedy, avaricious way, and that's one

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Speaker 4: model that we obviously don't want to want to emulate.

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Speaker 4: But then there's people who have a lot of money

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Speaker 4: and they have all this ability to like heal our

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Speaker 4: broken world. That's great. But on the flip side, for example,

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Speaker 4: there was a monk in the monastery, I'll call him

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Speaker 4: Brother Pious. You know, he refused to touch money for

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Speaker 4: any reason, Like there was he wouldn't he wouldn't use

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Speaker 4: a credit card or a debit card or cash. For

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Speaker 4: years he went without thinking that money, to even touching

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Speaker 4: money would pollute his soul in some weird way. And

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Speaker 4: so the weird thing about that is it made all

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Speaker 4: the other monks around him touch money more often to

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Speaker 4: keep his soul pure and clean and so right, and

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Speaker 4: and what it did is it it act? It didn't.

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Speaker 4: It didn't diminish his ego. It inflated his ego. It

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Speaker 4: gave him a sense of superiority from the other monks.

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Speaker 4: He was on this sort of pious perch that he

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Speaker 4: could look down on the rest of us who are

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Speaker 4: handling and handling this dirty, dirty money all day to

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Speaker 4: keep him fed and housed. And it was just it

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Speaker 4: was it was utter insanity, right, And so so it

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Speaker 4: really isn't the vile poverty, or it isn't having a

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Speaker 4: lot of money. It's like, well, why are you doing this?

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Speaker 4: Is it? Is it reducing your ego? Is it making

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Speaker 4: you more loving and kind or not? And it's you know,

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Speaker 4: it's by the fruits you shall know them. And so

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Speaker 4: that's really So it's a bit of a long winded

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Speaker 4: answer to a complicated question. But there isn't a simple

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Speaker 4: It isn't a simple black and white issue.

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Speaker 2: Yeah sure, yeah, Well so for a second there, like

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Speaker 2: you touched on selfishness and greed.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 2: At one point you said like you are trying to

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Speaker 2: encourage folks to become capitalists, not consumers. And it seems

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Speaker 2: like you like you are pointing folks more towards the

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Speaker 2: like that selfishness mindset. Uh, if we are sort of greedy,

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Speaker 2: how that could lead folks down paths of disaster as

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Speaker 2: opposed to criticizing the overall system of capitalism. It sounds

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Speaker 2: like you're you're basically pushing folks towards frugality to a

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Speaker 2: certain extent, which I don't know, that's something that that

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Speaker 2: we talk about a good bit here on the show.

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Speaker 2: But can you talk to that for a minute.

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Speaker 4: So, yes, So, so it's frugality is important. You got

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Speaker 4: to you got to save more than you earn if

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Speaker 4: you ever want to have real wealth. And so yeah,

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Speaker 4: it's the idea that you you know, as I put

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Speaker 4: in the book capitalists or somebody who invests and saves

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Speaker 4: and invests and has wealth, and a consumer someone who

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Speaker 4: just sort of goes out, goes out there and spends

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Speaker 4: everything they have on stuff and then they're broke and

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Speaker 4: so they're sort of they're they're sort of that they're

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Speaker 4: they're feeding into the negative side of the capitalistic system.

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Speaker 4: And so where capitalists has positive and negative connotations, and

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Speaker 4: maybe the language here is a bit of a bit

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Speaker 4: of a barrier, but essentially, what you need to be

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Speaker 4: able to do is to have enough money to take

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Speaker 4: care of yourself and and and really, you know, live

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Speaker 4: a comfortable life. And what that means is for me

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Speaker 4: and what that means for you might be very different things.

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Speaker 4: But what I don't want is for people to endure

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Speaker 4: the unnecessary suffering that poverty produces in their lives. Because

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Speaker 4: we know from the science that your socioeconomic status is

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Speaker 4: the best predictor of mortality. So the less money you have,

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Speaker 4: the more poverty. Poor people get hit with more bad

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Speaker 4: things that you don't want in life than you could

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Speaker 4: possibly imagine. So poor people have higher rates of obesity,

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Speaker 4: of drug addiction, of domestic violence, of crime, of workplace injury,

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Speaker 4: you know, cancer, all the things in life that you

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Speaker 4: don't want to get hit with. Poor people get hit

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Speaker 4: with it more than the rest of us because the

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Speaker 4: stress of being poor is unrelenting. It's it's like walking

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Speaker 4: over a pit of alligators on a tightrope every single day.

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Speaker 4: It's just it's truly something that we should be trying

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Speaker 4: to eliminate from the world. So is it is it

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Speaker 4: so much like, oh, I want everyone to be abilities. Well,

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Speaker 4: that'd be great, But mostly it's like I see this

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Speaker 4: as a way of preventing suffering, like helping people with

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Speaker 4: their finances. It isn't just about oh, being super rich

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Speaker 4: and greedy. It's about no, it's about it's about being

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Speaker 4: a suffering prevention specialist, is what I call myself. Sometimes

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Speaker 4: it's like, I'm gonna try to help you avoid all

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Speaker 4: the pain. It's unnecessary if you can get your finances

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Speaker 4: in order and have a robust and healthy relationship with money.

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Speaker 4: So that's I'm.

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Speaker 1: Gonna update my LinkedIn now change my title from Suffering

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Speaker 1: Prevention special host to suffering Specialist. I love that, I think,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's true. I've never thought about

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Speaker 1: it like that, but that's like a big motivation behind

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Speaker 1: what we do is to help people not suffer with money.

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Speaker 1: And we talk about this even in kind of our

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Speaker 1: our bios on the how to Money website. It's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, neither of us are aiming for Elon musk

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Speaker 1: levels of wealth and in fact, like not even not

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Speaker 1: even close to a goal that registers on my radar,

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Speaker 1: but helping other people like not mess it up the

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Speaker 1: way I've seen people, including people in my family that

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Speaker 1: are close to me mess it up that that creates

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Speaker 1: so much hardship that that's certainly a goal. I'm curious too.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned in your book you that you had a

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Speaker 1: minister friend of yours who's quite stingy, and that left

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Speaker 1: an impact on you too. So part of yeah, this

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Speaker 1: goal of inspiring not only good money habits but also generosity,

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Speaker 1: you've seen the opposite at play. Yeah, what's your take

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Speaker 1: on on stinginess and money?

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Speaker 4: Stinginess is a real problem for some people, right, and

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Speaker 4: so there's there's you need to be frugal, but maybe

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Speaker 4: we did just maybe distinguished frugal and stingy and I'm

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Speaker 4: just kind of winging it here a little bit on

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Speaker 4: these definitions. But like, frugal is all right, you need

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Speaker 4: to be prudent about how much you spend because you

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Speaker 4: need to have money to save so you can invest

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Speaker 4: you can, But then stinginess is this kind of avariciousness

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Speaker 4: that that is basically a lack of love. It's a

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Speaker 4: lack of it's like where generosity is a virtue. Let's

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Speaker 4: put it that way as well, Like, so, so saving

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Speaker 4: is important, but you need to learn how to be

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Speaker 4: generous with your with your resources at the same time.

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Speaker 4: So there's a balance between like, well, why do you

433
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:26,480
Speaker 4: have all this money, Well, the point of having it

434
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,600
Speaker 4: is again to love and serve God in the world. Like,

435
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:34,040
Speaker 4: that's that's why you've got it. So if you aren't giving,

436
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,360
Speaker 4: if it's so, it's what I call the four pillars

437
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:39,000
Speaker 4: of finance, and the four pillars of finance for me

438
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:45,720
Speaker 4: are earning, saving, investing, and giving. And so you kind

439
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,080
Speaker 4: of got to master this the first three pillars before

440
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,960
Speaker 4: you have any money to give, but once you have

441
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,399
Speaker 4: some wealth, it's really that's that's the final pillar that

442
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,600
Speaker 4: is essential that everyone should be giving back and to

443
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,280
Speaker 4: the extent that they're able to fix the crack in

444
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,400
Speaker 4: the world that God put them on this planet to heal.

445
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,440
Speaker 2: So you are segueing very nicely into your new book

446
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:10,880
Speaker 2: before and we're going to talk more about the enneagram

447
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:12,879
Speaker 2: right after the break here, Doug, But before that, I

448
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,040
Speaker 2: guess I got one quick follow up, so you mentioned

449
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 2: with your pillars giving being the essentially sort of like

450
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 2: the final step. What are your thoughts on folks giving

451
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 2: money essentially all along the way, so as they are

452
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 2: first learning how to handle their money well while they

453
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,680
Speaker 2: are still in debt, perhaps to essentially build that muscle,

454
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:32,240
Speaker 2: because that's something that we've talked about here on the

455
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,680
Speaker 2: show before, and it's something that we both that Joe

456
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,480
Speaker 2: and I both have done too, where it's always been

457
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,119
Speaker 2: a part of I guess just how it is that

458
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,880
Speaker 2: we handle our money as opposed to seeing it as

459
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:44,960
Speaker 2: like the sort of finish line like, oh, because once

460
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 2: I get to this certain net worth amount or once

461
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,680
Speaker 2: I get to this whatever promotion, then I'll finally be

462
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:51,400
Speaker 2: able to be a giver.

463
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:52,919
Speaker 3: Can you can you speak to that?

464
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean you want to be generous along the way.

465
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,560
Speaker 4: It's just a matter of it's the giving needs to

466
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,240
Speaker 4: be in proportion to your income, and so as long

467
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 4: as you're not, you know, harming yourself in some significant way,

468
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,400
Speaker 4: then of course you need to be giving. Again, all

469
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,159
Speaker 4: four pillars have to be in place at all times,

470
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:17,680
Speaker 4: and so as as your financial health improves, then all

471
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 4: four pillars sort of rising together. Let's put it that way.

472
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, we're gonna get you more on the aneagram.

473
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 1: Talk about Doug's book, and if you don't know what

474
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:28,359
Speaker 1: the enneagram is, we'll talk about We'll inform that it's

475
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,400
Speaker 1: actually a really beautiful way of understanding yourself and how

476
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,959
Speaker 1: you're created, and then how that impacts how you think

477
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 1: about and handle money. We'll talk more about that with

478
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 1: Doug right after.

479
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 3: This we are back from the break talking with Doug.

480
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 2: Lineup how he got from being a monk to a

481
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,359
Speaker 2: money monster and Doug, let's talk about the enneagram. I

482
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 2: think before the break you're you mentioned brother Pious. If

483
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 2: I remember correctly, I think that was avoidant behavior of

484
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 2: an aneagram number one. Uh, you can correct me if

485
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 2: I'm right there, but you got it? Okay, awesome, Awesome.

486
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 2: We have seen just a rise in the popularity of

487
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 2: the anagram. I feel like I read a book on it.

488
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe like several years ago. I'm still

489
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 2: not totally sure what number I am. But can you

490
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 2: explain to listeners maybe who aren't as familiar with it,

491
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,880
Speaker 2: what it is and why you yourself have gravitated towards

492
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 2: using it.

493
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 4: Sure, so your personality has two components to it. There's

494
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,679
Speaker 4: a nature component, which is your DNA that in your

495
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 4: genes that it has a very deep and profound impact

496
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 4: on how your personality is going to be shaped. But

497
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 4: then there's also a nurture part to your personality, and

498
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 4: the anteagram explains that side of who you are, how

499
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 4: you how your childhood environment shaped your personality and shape

500
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 4: the ego defenses that you had to have and how

501
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:57,439
Speaker 4: to develop in order to survive in this world. And

502
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,479
Speaker 4: what's interesting about the anagram is what you know as

503
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 4: to think of a color wheel. If you're thinking of

504
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 4: a color wheel and a circle, and then if you

505
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 4: were to divide that up into nine slices, like nine

506
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,360
Speaker 4: pie slices, then those where each of those pie slices are,

507
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 4: that's a kind of an archetypal pattern of personality that

508
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 4: you can develop in your childhood. So there's nine archetypes

509
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 4: of personality in the enneagram, but there's also an infinite

510
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 4: variety inside each one of them. So it's got lots

511
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 4: of flexibility in room for all of our unique individuality.

512
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 4: But there's only so many ways you can design a

513
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 4: human ego. Think of it like this, and I'll like

514
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 4: to use car metaphors. I think it helps. So you

515
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 4: can think of it like a car. The car you

516
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 4: drive has a unique year, make, and model, and your

517
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 4: car is completely unique from every other car on the road,

518
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 4: and yet it still has like a structure. We could

519
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 4: put it in kind of a category of a type

520
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,919
Speaker 4: of car, So we can have SUVs, we can have

521
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 4: compact cars, we can have family sedans, you can have

522
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 4: you know, hummers or you know, there's all these different ways.

523
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 4: So there's a kind of a model of car, style

524
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 4: of car that you're driving, and that style of car

525
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 4: determines how you're going to experience the road of the highway.

526
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 4: But same thing with the enneagram, Like your ego is

527
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 4: the thing you're driving around in, and the style of

528
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 4: ego that you have determines how you perceive and see

529
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 4: and interact with everything in life. And so it's a

530
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 4: really robust and really important tool to help you understand

531
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 4: who you are. And one of the things I've done

532
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 4: with this book is try to really ground it in

533
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 4: both the most the latest research in neurobiology and childhood

534
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 4: developmental psychology, so it's it's got really robust scientific validation

535
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 4: these days. It used to be a little woo woo,

536
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:52,880
Speaker 4: but it's not that anymore.

537
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

538
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 1: Well one of the things too, I guess if someone

539
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: is really first beginning with their personal finances, they might say,

540
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 1: I got to start tracking my right, that's an important part.

541
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: I got to make sure I save up that initial

542
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: emergency fund. I should probably look into kind of my

543
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 1: credit score and the importance of that and how that

544
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: impacts like the whole rest of my financial life. And

545
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: you you basically say, actually understanding your enneagram type ranks

546
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,199
Speaker 1: up there at least with some of those things. Why

547
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 1: do you think it's so powerful for people who want

548
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:22,360
Speaker 1: to handle money better? Why do they need to dig

549
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 1: into kind of some of that personal personality stuff.

550
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, because what the anagram will tell you is what

551
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,919
Speaker 4: your deepest unconscious fear is, Like, what's the thing that

552
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 4: you're really most terrified of in life?

553
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 3: Because that was not like sharks or anything like that, right.

554
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 4: Well, it could be see, it could be I mean that,

555
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 4: but there's a there's something deeper down down even below

556
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 4: the sharks. If you if you, if you get, if

557
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 4: you really get into its.

558
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 3: Keep peeling back the layers and keep pulling.

559
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 4: Back the layers. So so each each of these archetypes

560
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 4: of personality, the anagram is running off of, well here,

561
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 4: here's a way of thinking about it. If I could

562
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 4: go a little deep. We're into it with you. So

563
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 4: you have to imagine, like what it was like in

564
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 4: your in the in the womb when you were when

565
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 4: your consciousness first flickered on. And my hypothesis with the

566
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 4: enneagram is that you were probably in a state of

567
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:19,719
Speaker 4: unconscious unity, meaning you were one with your environment and

568
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 4: you were but you were, but you were unconscious. You

569
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 4: didn't have a clear sense of what's me and what's

570
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 4: not me. You're just kind of floating in this oceanic

571
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 4: bliss of oneness in your mother's womb. And then eventually

572
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 4: you get born, you get popped out, and it's like surprise,

573
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 4: there's more to reality than just you suddenly, and then

574
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 4: there's a physical umbilical cord that gets cut, obviously, and

575
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 4: you're physically separated from your mother, but instantly there's a

576
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 4: psychological umbilical cord that forms between you and your caregivers.

577
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 4: Because you developed this egoic codependence on your caregivers immediately

578
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 4: at birth, and because they have to do almost all

579
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 4: all of the driving of life for you for the

580
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 4: first several years of your existence. So they're essentially, you know,

581
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 4: driving you around in reality, keeping you safe, from protecting

582
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 4: you and telling you what to do and what not

583
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 4: to do. Right because you don't have a reality, you're

584
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 4: still trying to figure out what this reality thing is.

585
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 4: But over time, that psychological umbilical cord has to be

586
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 4: cut in order for you to have an individuated sense

587
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 4: of self, in order for you to have a unique

588
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 4: distinct identity from your caregivers, from your siblings, from your

589
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 4: all of the rest of reality. And so that psychological

590
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 4: umbilical cord has to get cut over time, and it

591
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 4: has to be cut with sharp negative emotions, because positive

592
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 4: emotions will just reinforce your connection to your caregivers. And

593
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 4: so what the enneagram tells us is that there's we

594
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 4: know from them the neurobiology, and that in all mammals

595
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 4: there's really three core negative emotions and they reside in

596
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 4: the in the mid limbic re of the brain for

597
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 4: all mammals, and all other negative emotions are some combination

598
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 4: of these big three negative emotions, and the big three

599
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 4: are anger, sadness, and fear. So anger sadness, and fear

600
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 4: are the sharpest emotional lives, and your anagram type is

601
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 4: determined by which of those three emotions you experienced more

602
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 4: of in your childhood. Where did you experience more anger

603
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 4: or sadness and some of them shame is another term

604
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 4: we use for sadness in the anagram, and that's fine

605
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 4: or was it fear? And so which of those emotional

606
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 4: lives did the cutting of that psychological umbilical cord? And

607
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 4: that gives us what we call the three triads of

608
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 4: the anagram. So this this color wheel we've got, you

609
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 4: can break it into three sections or three quadrants, and

610
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,479
Speaker 4: then each of those three triads, those quadrants can now

611
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 4: be broken down into three subsets. That's what gives the

612
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 4: nine types. Because there's three core negative of emotions that anger, sadness,

613
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 4: for fear, and then there's three ways you could process

614
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 4: that negative emotion. You could externalize it. Let's say we're

615
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 4: dealing with the anger. You could take that anger and

616
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 4: you could externalize it, and that's like having a food

617
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 4: fight with the world, and that would call it what

618
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 4: we call that the type eight, which is the challenger

619
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 4: and they hate, hate being harmed or controlled and so

620
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 4: that's I call them the hummer of egos. Or you

621
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 4: can take that anger and you can internalize it and

622
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 4: you get a type one, call them the improver or

623
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 4: the BMW of egos. And their greatest fear is being

624
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 4: bad or defective. So they're always trying to improve themselves

625
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 4: or improve the world around them, and they can, you know,

626
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 4: and they're very good at that, and they can also

627
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 4: be you know, we all of us have our quirks

628
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 4: and can be annoying when we go when we get

629
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 4: too deep into our unhealthy parts of our type. So

630
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 4: that's but then there's a third option here is which

631
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 4: you can have both. You can both internalize that anger

632
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 4: and externalize that anger, and that gives us the type nine,

633
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 4: which is called a peacemaker, or I call them the

634
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 4: r V of egos, meaning their their greatest fear is

635
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 4: a loss of wholeness from conflict. So Titanis are sitting

636
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 4: on so much repressed anger. They've got this internalized anger

637
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 4: themselves for not being able to meet their needs as

638
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 4: a child, and they've got this externalized anger at the

639
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 4: world for not meeting their needs well either, and so

640
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 4: they want everything around them as peaceful as possible because

641
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 4: they're they're terrified of a loss of wholeness, of the

642
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 4: anger ever came roaring out. And so that's just that's

643
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 4: just a quick I'll stop there. But yeah, it kind

644
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 4: of gives you a sense of how the enneagram works,

645
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 4: how it forms, and what your greatest fear is. And

646
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 4: then and then we can really we can relate it

647
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 4: to money here in a second.

648
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 1: So the goal of recognizing that, right see, is essentially

649
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 1: shining a light on ourselves, how we take how we

650
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: function that maybe we go through life more unaware of

651
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: typically and because we haven't done the introspection, we we

652
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: don't really know why we do some of the things

653
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: that we do. And once we dig a little deeper

654
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: into the why behind how we work, that's that's gonna

655
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 1: reveal some stuff to us. It's going to help us

656
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 1: get better with our finances.

657
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 4: Absolutely. And then and then what I've done with the

658
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 4: with the anagram is I've so I've taken the anagram,

659
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 4: I've layered on top of it what I call the

660
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 4: attachment theory of money. Now, the attachment theory of money

661
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,479
Speaker 4: is very similar to the attachment theory of relationships. It's

662
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 4: almost identical to it. Just apply to money if those

663
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 4: of you you're listeners who might be familiar with it.

664
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 4: But but what the attachment theory of money says is

665
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 4: that there's there's two unhealthy ways that we can relate

666
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 4: to money, which is we can be anxiously attached to it,

667
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 4: which is like the Ebenezer Scrooge or the Gordon get

668
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 4: Goes of the world right. Or we can be avoidant

669
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 4: of money. We can push it away like I did

670
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 4: as when I was younger, people who are fearful of it,

671
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 4: who who hate opening their bills or doing their budget,

672
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 4: or just the world of finance scares them too much.

673
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 4: And so you can be anxious or avoidant. And then

674
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 4: that gives us two money monsters for each of the

675
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 4: nine enneagram types and so and then also going back,

676
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 4: if we could just do those four pillars of finance

677
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 4: which we talked about earlier in the show, which was earning, saving, investing,

678
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 4: and giving. Now you can be anxious or avoidant in

679
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 4: different areas of your financial life. You might be an

680
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 4: anxious earner and savior an investor but an avoidant giver.

681
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,720
Speaker 4: Or you could be an anxious earner but a terrible

682
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 4: saver of if you spend avoid saving. So the system

683
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 4: of the inteagram, combined with the attachment fear of money,

684
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 4: really dives deep into where you're likely to be struggling

685
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 4: in your financial life why and then offering people the

686
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 4: tools to overcome those problems.

687
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,320
Speaker 2: Is there a something that determines whether or not someone

688
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 2: takes a more anxious approach or a more avoidant approach,

689
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 2: Because as I was reading your book that like there

690
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 2: was I saw myself in both of those behaviors at

691
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 2: different points in my life, and sometimes like almost simultaneously

692
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,839
Speaker 2: regarding the same task. Right, So, like you're talking about here,

693
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 2: going back to the four pillars, even when it comes

694
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 2: to let's just like choose one like saving, like I've

695
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,760
Speaker 2: seen at different points in my life, a more anxious

696
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 2: approach whilst simultaneously somewhat beating being avoidant when it comes

697
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 2: to I'm just thinking of like certain bills or something

698
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 2: like that. There have been times where I am very

699
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 2: on top of it. And this isn't to like turn this.

700
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 2: It's not like Matt any agraam time. But oh come on,

701
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 2: let's just some dissecting here. But I guess I'm curious

702
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 2: to hear your thoughts there, Doug. What is it that

703
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 2: causes someone to take a more anxious turn versus a

704
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 2: more avoidant turn where they were just ignoring it all together.

705
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a hard question to answer. I can only guess,

706
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 4: and I would just say it probably has to do

707
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 4: with childhood. Most of the stuff goes back to childhood issues,

708
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 4: like you know what kind of childhood traumas you might

709
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 4: have had as a kid around money, the emotions, the

710
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 4: positive or negative emotions that come up for you around it.

711
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 4: If you if you grew up in a really some

712
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 4: people who grew up in a lot of scarcity and

713
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 4: your poverty or tend to be more anxious about money.

714
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,760
Speaker 4: It's an oversimplifying. It's a really complicated question, no right answer,

715
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 4: But the simple asses probably just goes back to your

716
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 4: child and it's it's for whatever reason it's triggering either

717
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 4: an anxious or avoidant emotion around the money, depending on

718
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 4: the context. And we and we could be jumbled in

719
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 4: our style, right we most of us are not all

720
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 4: anxious or all avoidant. We we tend to be jumbled.

721
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 4: We're anxious in one area and avoid in another. And

722
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 4: we can flip back and forth depending on the time

723
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:24,399
Speaker 4: of day or or a mood.

724
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 2: Okay, so you're not necessarily like locked into one type

725
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 2: of no process. Okay, yeah, dogs right, but you're gonna

726
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 2: have a.

727
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 4: Pattern if you will see tend to see a pattern though.

728
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 1: Okay, okay. So so it's interesting. My wife's been studying

729
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 1: the aneagram much longer and in more in depth than

730
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: I have. I have. I have like peripherably scanned some

731
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 1: of the materials, including your book, Doug, but I pretty

732
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: instinctively knew almost seven like that to me resonated really

733
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 1: quickly when I read about that personality type of the

734
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 1: anagram and one of the lines let's let's maybe we'll

735
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 1: turn these so one of the lines in your book

736
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: in that section you say money anxious sevens treat budgets

737
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 1: as fun sucking vampires and will often work to have

738
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 1: enough money so they don't need to worry about a

739
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,879
Speaker 1: detailed budget. And I was like, I feel seen right now,

740
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 1: Doug knows me.

741
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 2: No, je a budget is a permission slip that gives you.

742
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 2: I know, it's a hall pass to allow.

743
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:20,760
Speaker 3: You to spend.

744
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 1: You're right, like, I see the wisdom in that, but

745
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 1: I also see my own intuitive response, which is I

746
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 1: don't like the details. I like to fly by the

747
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 1: seat of my pants, and so what allows me to

748
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,879
Speaker 1: do that is to have enough savings to where when

749
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 1: stuff flies at me in the face, like I don't

750
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 1: get nearly as anxious or fearful if I have done that,

751
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 1: or even just about an expense. So I'm just excited

752
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 1: about and I'm like, this is more than I assumed

753
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:48,240
Speaker 1: I would spend, But I've got the money in savings

754
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 1: to back me up, so it's okay. So I guess

755
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 1: I don't know what would your suggestion be for someone

756
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,359
Speaker 1: like me who tends to use savings as a way

757
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,319
Speaker 1: to maybe avoid some of that money hygiene I should

758
00:37:58,320 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 1: be practicing.

759
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 4: The first thing is just to be aware of it now,

760
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 4: you know, So what are you to do about it?

761
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 4: Like it's up to you to figure out, you know,

762
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 4: how you want to be able to you know, if

763
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 4: it's working for you, then it's working for you. Like

764
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:17,360
Speaker 4: you know, you don't need to become a different person

765
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 4: or other than you are. But if that's how you

766
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 4: want to roll, if it's working, then great, I think

767
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 4: that's fantastic. If you want to If you think you

768
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 4: could do better, and you think that there's a more

769
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,359
Speaker 4: robust way forward for you to have a healthier financial life,

770
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 4: then okay, well then maybe just try baby steps like

771
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,959
Speaker 4: what's uh, what's one thing you could do that each

772
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 4: week that would that would sort of resolve that issue

773
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 4: for you. But again, you don't have to be someone

774
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 4: when you're not. You just need to be able to

775
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 4: work around the own your weaknesses and own your strengths

776
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 4: and and try to minimize the weaknesses and maximize the strengths.

777
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 2: Nice, Doug, we got more to get to. We're gonna

778
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 2: I've got another Enneagram question for you. We got more

779
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:05,919
Speaker 2: to get to here with you.

780
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 1: Right after this, we're back still talking with Doug Lineham,

781
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 1: who former monk now manages money and really helps other people,

782
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 1: especially with this new book, figure out, Hey, what's going on?

783
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 3: Who are you?

784
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 1: How do you handle money? What are the ways that

785
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: your personality is biased towards handling money so then you

786
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 1: can shine a light on it and make some changes

787
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 1: to improve your finances over time. I'm curious to Doug,

788
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 1: especially coming from the monk perspective. You talk about the

789
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 1: mindful practice of managing money, and you kind of seem

790
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: to link money habits to religious practice. Do you think

791
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: there's overlap there and is there something we can maybe

792
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 1: learn from some of the tenants of classic religious practice

793
00:39:57,920 --> 00:39:59,240
Speaker 1: that can help us with our finances.

794
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:02,399
Speaker 4: That's a big question. My brain just sort of short

795
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 4: circuited on that question, such a big one. Well, you know,

796
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 4: traditional we're just practices. What they're doing is they're giving

797
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 4: you a structure that allows you to live a healthier

798
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 4: and happier and more loving and compassionate life. And so

799
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 4: when you bring that in alignment with your financial life,

800
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 4: when you bring those two things in harmony, now you

801
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 4: have like, as we talked about at the beginning the show,

802
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 4: you have this this super money is like your superhero

803
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 4: utility belt. If you use it right, that allows you

804
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 4: to do an awful lot of good in the world.

805
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 4: And so it has to be wedded to a spiritual

806
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 4: practice or else it's going to be used in the

807
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 4: most it's just inevitably going to be used in an

808
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,760
Speaker 4: abusive and harmful and selfish and self centered and greedy

809
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 4: and narcissistic and you know, jerky ways, you know. And

810
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 4: so without a spiritual practice, everything in your life is

811
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 4: probably going to be very, very challenging, but especially how

812
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 4: you're relating to money and how you're using it and

813
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 4: how you're earning it, and how are you living an

814
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 4: ethical life. It really can't live a deeply ethical life.

815
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,399
Speaker 4: I don't think if you aren't bringing your spirituality into

816
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 4: how you earn, how you save, how you invest, and

817
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 4: how you give. So is there a particular like rule

818
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 4: that from a particular religion. I don't think I could

819
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 4: come up with that in my head on the spot,

820
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 4: but I do think it's essential that you have a

821
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 4: spiritual practice.

822
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure there are some people listening right now

823
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 1: and they're like, it's I mean, they think it's interesting,

824
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 1: they're curious about your story, but they're also like, either

825
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 1: I went to church and I was burned, or I

826
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 1: haven't been to church. I'm not interested. And they've also seen,

827
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 1: of course some hypocrisy or injustice done by the church.

828
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 1: Inst they're saying, well, religious practice, and I think I

829
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 1: can keep those separately and do pretty fine with my finances.

830
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 1: What would you say to someone like that, like, Hey,

831
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 1: do you actually need a spiritual life or are there

832
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 1: things that you can glean from spiritual practice without practicing

833
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 1: spirit anything spiritual yourself.

834
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, I want to respect people who have

835
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,760
Speaker 4: been burned by traditional religions and might suggesting that everyone

836
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 4: needs to go out and join the church or on

837
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 4: the street corner of the street. But I see, I

838
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 4: know lots of people who are very spiritual, people fall

839
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 4: into the spiritual but not religious category, people who have

840
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 4: a spiritual practice but maybe aren't doing it in a

841
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 4: traditional way. I think that's wonderful as well as long.

842
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 4: But I mean, obviously you can do just find in

843
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,240
Speaker 4: your finances without without a spiritual practice.

844
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 3: You don't have to have it.

845
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:42,760
Speaker 4: But I think if you want to be happy in life,

846
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 4: it's about being connected to community. It's about being connected

847
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 4: to your sense of the divine and God in whatever faith,

848
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,320
Speaker 4: tradition that whatever that looks like for you. But essentially,

849
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 4: I think it's really about how do you have community

850
00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 4: and how do you have how do you find love

851
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 4: and service in the world, Like what does that look

852
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 4: like for you? And I just would suggest that that's

853
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 4: something that we all want and long for it. I

854
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 4: think it would be fully happy and complete as human beings.

855
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I believe it.

856
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, going back to I guess the anagram for

857
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 2: a second, I'm I'm wondering if you think that there

858
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:25,880
Speaker 2: are a type, like different types of anagrams that we

859
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 2: tend to see more in the world. Like you you

860
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 2: mentioned it almost as like a color wheel, and I

861
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 2: like you think about colors in the world and then

862
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:34,360
Speaker 2: like if you zoom out enough, like the earth is

863
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 2: blue right, like like the blue marble right like out

864
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 2: out there floating out in space. Sure, is there a

865
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:42,359
Speaker 2: type of vineagram number that you tend to see over

866
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 2: and over in your life? Maybe I don't know, that

867
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,800
Speaker 2: might be helpful for folks to hear you maybe quickly summarize.

868
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 4: I mean, there are some types that are lots common,

869
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,760
Speaker 4: like type fives are maybe one of the least common types.

870
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 4: But other than that, it's it's kind of I don't

871
00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 4: know the exact statistics on it, but it is a

872
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 4: pretty it's pretty evenly spread. There isn't one type that's

873
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 4: more common than other types. I think statistically, you know,

874
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 4: it's around seven to twelve percent of the population is

875
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:11,839
Speaker 4: one type or the other.

876
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 3: I think that's that's the rough Yeah.

877
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 1: So for someone who's listening and they're like, oh, I

878
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 1: took the Myers Briggs back in the day. Maybe that

879
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 1: shed a little bit of light on on on who I,

880
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: how I think about myself, and how I understand the

881
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 1: personality that I have. What would you tell them, like,

882
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:29,840
Speaker 1: is there a good place to get started to figure

883
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:32,879
Speaker 1: out what their aneagram number is, because especially if it's

884
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,359
Speaker 1: so revelatory and it's going to help us understand how

885
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 1: we tick so that we can then understand why we're

886
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 1: using money in the way that we are. Where's a

887
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:42,760
Speaker 1: good place to figure out, well, what the anagram number

888
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 1: we are and find out some more details. Obviously your

889
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: book would be a place to kind of do some

890
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:48,359
Speaker 1: digging on that and anything else.

891
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 4: Yeah. So I have a licensing deal with a company

892
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 4: called it's called i e Q nine and they have

893
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:57,719
Speaker 4: an excellent anagram test and I can send you all.

894
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 4: I have a promo code and link. It's a great test.

895
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:02,799
Speaker 4: And the reason I partnered with them is because it's

896
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 4: got the it's the most scientifically rigorous and accurate enneagram

897
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 4: test out there. There's lots of free ones, and they're

898
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 4: just not great. The free ones are maybe fifty percent accurate, which.

899
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 3: Is not great. It's accurate as a coin flip.

900
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,399
Speaker 4: And this one is closer to like over nine ninety

901
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 4: five percent accurate and much more detailed, So it's worth

902
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 4: I think it's worth it to spend a few bucks

903
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 4: and do it right.

904
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 1: The free one told me I'm gonna tipe thirteen and

905
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:29,280
Speaker 1: wait twenty second. How that happen?

906
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 4: Oh?

907
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 3: We appreciate you taking.

908
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:34,360
Speaker 2: The time to chat with us, and I will definitely

909
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 2: link to your site. I know you've got that test

910
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 2: linked as well, and we'll make sure to include any

911
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 2: sort of promo codes that might help listeners get a discount.

912
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 2: But can you share your ur L with folks who

913
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 2: may not navigate over to our show notes where they

914
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 2: can find all that?

915
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:53,240
Speaker 4: Sure? Just my name good Doug linum dot com. That's

916
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 4: l y n a M dot com, and you'll can

917
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 4: find perfect kinds of cool resources on my website.

918
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 1: Awesome, Doug, thanks for joining us today. We really appreciate it.

919
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 4: Thanks man, Joel, appreciate you guys.

920
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 2: All right, So, Joel, do you think that you need

921
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 2: to join a Benedictine monastery in order to find a

922
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:11,240
Speaker 2: sense of purpose?

923
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 1: So do you feel like you've already got it? I'm

924
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 1: going to inform my wife this evening. Take a vow

925
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 1: of celibacy. I was going to say, she'll be devastated,

926
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:20,760
Speaker 1: but she might not be. Who knows. If she's not devastated,

927
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:21,399
Speaker 1: then I'll be really sad.

928
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 3: Dang it. I thought you'd be bummed out, babe.

929
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 1: So you're gonna try to get me today? No, okay,

930
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 1: uh okay, let's talk about big takeaways. Yes, yes, mine

931
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 1: was when he said part of his goal is to

932
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: help people avoid the unnecessary suffering of not having enough money.

933
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 3: That's the uh suffering prevention specialist. Yes, phrase that he

934
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,279
Speaker 3: put out there, and that was so good. I love that.

935
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 1: I mean I think of that, never really boiled it

936
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 1: down to that before, but I really do think of

937
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 1: that as one of the major goals that drives what

938
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,239
Speaker 1: we do. And it makes me think of somebody who

939
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 1: doesn't know how what a balanced diet looks like and

940
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 1: how that informs a healthy body. Right, And so they

941
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 1: might assume that, oh, it's just about the amount of

942
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 1: calories I in takeover a given day, and then they

943
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 1: make Donald's.

944
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:03,239
Speaker 3: That used to actually be a plan weight watchers. It

945
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 3: doesn't matter, it's just the calories come from.

946
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 1: But come on, yeah, we all knew that was a

947
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 1: whole lot of a whole load of bunk, right, And

948
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:11,839
Speaker 1: clearly you're not getting some of the really important things

949
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:13,400
Speaker 1: that your body needs, and so you're probably not going

950
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 1: to feel nearly as good. You might try to go

951
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 1: for a run and like peter out pretty quickly because

952
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 1: you're just not providing your body the nutrients and resources

953
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 1: it needs to thrive. And I think the same thing

954
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 1: is true with money. You might assume think some things,

955
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 1: but then you don't know what you don't know. And

956
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 1: so I want to see people avoid unnecessary suffering on

957
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 1: the money front, and so much of that is kind

958
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 1: of just getting that baseline education that and even beyond

959
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:39,759
Speaker 1: that kind of a greater understanding of yourself, like Doug

960
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:43,760
Speaker 1: talked about on this episode. But man, I love that framework.

961
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:47,799
Speaker 2: There's not enough introspection just to even understand yourself. So

962
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 2: I guess, kind of piggybacking off what you said, a

963
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,760
Speaker 2: big part of preventing that suffering is it's an other.

964
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 3: Sort of focused approach to the world. And so my

965
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 3: big takeaway.

966
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 2: Is going to be how he was talking about, and

967
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 2: I'm putting within our framework, which is you can be frugal,

968
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 2: which he described as being prudent or you can be cheap,

969
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 2: which is a focus on avarice, and there's greed at

970
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 2: the heart of that, and what is that but a

971
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 2: lack of love towards whom, towards others, towards other people.

972
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:17,399
Speaker 2: And so that just helps me to think through because

973
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:19,760
Speaker 2: oftentimes we talk about something that's either frugal or cheap

974
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 2: here on the show, and I think when you are

975
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 2: thinking about yourself, it can be easy to maybe justify

976
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 2: something a purchase or an action, but when you start

977
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 2: thinking about others and how you treat the other people

978
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 2: and the the overall benefit that you're able to provide

979
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 2: those whether you're helping them when it comes to knowledge

980
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 2: and preventing them from suffering in a financial way, or

981
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 2: just the countless different actions that we can take in

982
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 2: our lives. I think that can help act as guardrails

983
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 2: in a sense, to guide some of our actions and

984
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 2: to ensure that we have this sense of unity and

985
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 2: harmony within our lives, which I feel like was just

986
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 2: like kind of a running theme throughout everything. He was saying,

987
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 2: like that's why he's talking about the enneagram because he

988
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 2: wants us to have harmony, like internal harmony with our

989
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 2: when it comes to our actions and how it is

990
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 2: that we handle our money and how that aligns even

991
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 2: with something as kind of high level as just our

992
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 2: our spiritual walks.

993
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think too. Being cheap or being greedy is

994
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 1: often that sort of attitude of like I got to

995
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 1: secure my bag, I got to look out for number one,

996
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 1: which is potentially an American an American quality more so

997
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 1: than most places. Sure, but that is something certainly to

998
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 1: be pushed back against, I think, because that's that's not

999
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:29,919
Speaker 1: a healthy habit and ultimately it's not going to lead

1000
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 1: to Yeah, well, it might lead to more money in

1001
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,399
Speaker 1: the bank account. It also might not, like because you're

1002
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 1: not playing the long game. But at the same time,

1003
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,439
Speaker 1: it certainly won't lead to we don't think greater levels

1004
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 1: of happiness totally.

1005
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 2: Our beer Joel that you and I enjoyed today was

1006
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:45,399
Speaker 2: called an elaborate metaphor this is a New England pale ale.

1007
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:46,760
Speaker 3: Oh, it's a pale.

1008
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:50,400
Speaker 2: I didn't realize that it had very New England hazy.

1009
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 2: I pa it sortes going on.

1010
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:52,759
Speaker 1: It's funny.

1011
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:54,720
Speaker 2: I didn't know that this is by Burlington Beer Company.

1012
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 2: I didn't realize it was a pale either. I was

1013
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 2: gonna say it tastes like a session IPA. To me,

1014
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 2: it tastes very like light and it had this soft

1015
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:06,319
Speaker 2: mouth feel, and so yeah, I thought, if you put

1016
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:08,759
Speaker 2: it in that session IPA category, it's fantastic. Same with

1017
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 2: a pale ale, I think, and I don't, to be honest,

1018
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:12,319
Speaker 2: what's the difference between session ip and a pale They're

1019
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 2: pretty pretty much the earliest anonymous Yeah, yeah, but this

1020
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:18,040
Speaker 2: I thought this was not like a mind blowingly good beer,

1021
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 2: but especially given kind of thing that I know, it's

1022
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 2: a pale, it's really really tasty. It kind of like jumped,

1023
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 2: like leapfrogged a little bit because it's like, oh, this

1024
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 2: is a pretty good IPA, but actually, no, this is

1025
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,120
Speaker 2: not an IPA. This is a fantastic pal al in

1026
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:31,279
Speaker 2: my opinion, because it's got all the complexities and the

1027
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 2: nuance and the flavor profile and the hops that you

1028
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,880
Speaker 2: expect with a hazy but just a lighter, easier to

1029
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 2: drink version of that. So I'm like in the moment

1030
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 2: changing my rating of this beer from from like a.

1031
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 3: Three seven five to like a four and a quarter.

1032
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:47,279
Speaker 1: If I were to rate this screen, if you're rating

1033
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 1: it against other pale ales, it stands out. Yeah, absolutely,

1034
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 1: all right, that's gonna do it. For this episode, we'll

1035
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 1: link to some of the resources we mentioned up in

1036
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 1: the show notes on our website at howtomoney dot com.

1037
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:00,720
Speaker 1: Until next time, best friends out and best Friends

1038
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 4: BEFO.