Speaker 1: I was maybe six ft above my body looking back
Speaker 1: at myself, but the me that was floating felt like
Speaker 1: the real me. And I looked back at myself and
Speaker 1: I saw my body laying there, and it was like
Speaker 1: looking at a photograph. Hello, and welcome to this week's
Speaker 1: edition of Cash and the Creepies. Today, I welcome Graham Nichols,
Speaker 1: expert on out of body experiences, author and board member
Speaker 1: at the Rhyme Research Center. Thank you so much for
Speaker 1: being here. Thanks for being my podcast. Great to be here.
Speaker 1: I'm like, really fascinated with out of body experiences. Well,
Speaker 1: let me this is something I ask every guest. Do
Speaker 1: you believe in the supernatural? I tend to see it
Speaker 1: as the natural, I guess I tend to see it
Speaker 1: as an extension of the natural, if you like, So,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't necessarily call it supernatural, but yeah, that works too,
Speaker 1: So yeah, what would you call it? Just like it's
Speaker 1: the natural part of things that we can't see. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I just think it's that we haven't fully understood everything
Speaker 1: that's possible in the world yet. That's kind of how
Speaker 1: I tend to look at it, Like our brains can't
Speaker 1: comprehend it. Now. I just think sort of scientifically. I
Speaker 1: guess we call things supernatural until we scientifically understand it,
Speaker 1: and then we just call it the natural because I
Speaker 1: guess if you go back in history, we used to
Speaker 1: call anything that was sort of unusual. We used to
Speaker 1: call getting ill supernatural, didn't we because we people used
Speaker 1: to say it was like a spirit taking over your
Speaker 1: body or something, and that's what being sick was or
Speaker 1: something like that. So I guess how I tend to
Speaker 1: look at it now is that um as we start
Speaker 1: to understand all those things, it just becomes a part
Speaker 1: of our understanding of the world. I guess we have
Speaker 1: different opinions on how the world works, from religion to
Speaker 1: science too, parapsychology and all those kinds of things so
Speaker 1: interesting because I feel like I find this supernatural. That's
Speaker 1: just like the most umbrella term for what I'm fascinated
Speaker 1: in is the stuff that is not yet explainable or
Speaker 1: just like you can't really see it. It's intangible. You
Speaker 1: can't hold it, and maybe you can't prove it scientifically,
Speaker 1: but you feel it. And once you feel something or
Speaker 1: you see like an apparition or for me, I've seen
Speaker 1: like lights in the sky, like I've seen it. You
Speaker 1: can't really explain it when I try to. I'm aware
Speaker 1: that it sounds crazy as all hell, but I saw it,
Speaker 1: so it's real. Yeah, I think I think we can
Speaker 1: probably deal with these things scientifically. That's the interesting thing.
Speaker 1: I tend to. I tend to be quite drawn to
Speaker 1: the science, and I want to I want to do
Speaker 1: our body experiences and explore ghosts and apparitions and all
Speaker 1: those kinds of things in the context of science, and
Speaker 1: then kind of maybe one day we'll kind of see
Speaker 1: those things as normal in it. I think so too,
Speaker 1: And that's like why I love science. I love science.
Speaker 1: So something that you're an expert at out of body experiences?
Speaker 1: What is an out of body experience? Okay? So, and
Speaker 1: our body experience, from my perspective, is probably when your
Speaker 1: consciousness or you could call it a spirit or something
Speaker 1: like that just depends on how you look at it,
Speaker 1: but I think it's when your consciousness experiences the world
Speaker 1: from a vantage point or a place away from your
Speaker 1: physical body. So it's literally like I feel like me,
Speaker 1: everything about me is normal, but I might be floating
Speaker 1: above myself looking back at my body. Like my very
Speaker 1: first experience I was maybe six ft above my body
Speaker 1: looking back at myself. Um, but the me that was
Speaker 1: floating felt like the real meat. And I looked back
Speaker 1: at myself and I saw my body laying there, and
Speaker 1: it was like looking at a photograph. It would it
Speaker 1: look like me. Everything about it was kind of me.
Speaker 1: But then at the same time, it didn't feel like
Speaker 1: that was the real meat. It felt like the one
Speaker 1: floating was the real meat. So that's kind of what
Speaker 1: it's like. It's literally like your sense of self, everything
Speaker 1: that you identify as you is not associated with your body.
Speaker 1: It's another location. So you can travel anywhere in the world.
Speaker 1: Theoretically it doesn't always work out quite like that, but
Speaker 1: you can go to different locations all around the world,
Speaker 1: and you can even go into other levels of reality basically.
Speaker 1: So it's it allowed allows you to directly experience and
Speaker 1: explore what it is to be a spiritual being or
Speaker 1: what the spiritual actually means or the supernatural actually means.
Speaker 1: You can have direct experience of it. So that's what
Speaker 1: I see it as. Okay, so when you're the first
Speaker 1: time this happened, how old we are. The first time
Speaker 1: it ever happened was a spontaneous experience when I was
Speaker 1: twelve um and that one only lasted a few seconds,
Speaker 1: and I found myself maybe half a mile from where
Speaker 1: I lived, and I was just above the ground. I
Speaker 1: wasn't asleep when it happened or anything like that. I
Speaker 1: was just relaxing, and suddenly it was like a click,
Speaker 1: and I found myself at this other location, floating above
Speaker 1: the ground, basically like a kind of living ghost. It
Speaker 1: was just floating there in the middle of the street.
Speaker 1: Was kind of like, what the hell is happening? And
Speaker 1: then it kind of ended almost as quickly as it started.
Speaker 1: But then I heard that there was this thing called
Speaker 1: out a Body Experiences about a year later, and that
Speaker 1: was when I learned to do it kind of devoted
Speaker 1: myself too in my mind, which I've never experienced this,
Speaker 1: but I think I've had, like I've had some weird
Speaker 1: feelings like that. It's usually like right when I'm falling
Speaker 1: asleep or meditating where I feel very much like It's
Speaker 1: not a very glamorous way to put it, but this
Speaker 1: is just how I saw it. Like our body, like
Speaker 1: our skin is like the housing for the like cosmos
Speaker 1: that live inside of us, like the spirit and so
Speaker 1: it's kind of gross, but this is like what I
Speaker 1: have deduced non scientifically, but it's like the sausage casing,
Speaker 1: but instead of sausage inside, it's my soul. Does that
Speaker 1: make sense? That's a good way for it. But like
Speaker 1: the soul that's inside this theoretical spiritual sausage that's floating
Speaker 1: to me, that's like who you really are. And then
Speaker 1: like I feel like having actually like your spirit and
Speaker 1: your body come together. That's like being present in this
Speaker 1: life on this plane. But I have a lot of
Speaker 1: times where I will like look in the mirror and
Speaker 1: be like, oh, ship, I forgot that's what you're Your
Speaker 1: housing looks like, Like I'll totally forget what I look
Speaker 1: like until I see a mirror and I'm like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: so very much like understand the spirit being a separate
Speaker 1: entity than the body, but having them be in two
Speaker 1: separate locations is something I've never experienced. So like, when
Speaker 1: that happened to you, were you thinking about this place?
Speaker 1: Did you like this street? Or you just showed up
Speaker 1: on a street floating just some random near to where
Speaker 1: I went to school. So I think probably the reason
Speaker 1: I went there was because it was somewhere kind of
Speaker 1: familiar to me, somewhere that I sort of knew well, um,
Speaker 1: and maybe I had an emotional connection to it. I
Speaker 1: think often where you go in the out body experiences
Speaker 1: is to do with how emotionally linked you are to
Speaker 1: that place. Sometimes not always, but I think the majority
Speaker 1: of the times that's kind of how it happens. So
Speaker 1: in that first experience, I went there probably because it
Speaker 1: was familiar to me and known to me and that
Speaker 1: kind of thing. Um, And did it freak you out?
Speaker 1: It did freak me out. Yeah, I didn't know, not
Speaker 1: not hugely, because I guess rewinding a bit. When I
Speaker 1: was about five and early in my life I had
Speaker 1: apparition experiences and things like that. So I've had other
Speaker 1: God tell me about that and go on, you can't
Speaker 1: just like pass over that, okay girl, m okay. Well
Speaker 1: that that was basically the first paranormal supernatural thing that
Speaker 1: ever happen. And I was five years old. I were
Speaker 1: around that age. I basically woke up in the night,
Speaker 1: went into the hallway of the flat that I grew
Speaker 1: up in, um, and basically in the hallway there was
Speaker 1: this tall figure. It filled the entire kind of height
Speaker 1: of the doorway that kind of led out of the flat. Um.
Speaker 1: It looked quite inhuman in a sense. It was humanoid,
Speaker 1: but it had it's really hard to kind of describe it.
Speaker 1: It was just very otherworldly. It kind of almost I
Speaker 1: guess now I would probably say something almost like a
Speaker 1: shaman or shamanic something like that, kind of almost like
Speaker 1: it was wearing a kind of costume or something of
Speaker 1: that description. Um. And I just sort of looked at it,
Speaker 1: and that really terrified me. Obviously, I've never seen anything
Speaker 1: like it. I remember going down onto the ground because
Speaker 1: it sort of gave me some solidity, and then turned
Speaker 1: around to try and sort of call out to my parents, UM,
Speaker 1: but I was too scared. I couldn't make any sound, basically.
Speaker 1: And then I looked back and it was still there
Speaker 1: and disappeared or anything, and it just and then kind
Speaker 1: of around it. There seemed to be almost like a
Speaker 1: suggestion that it was like standing on a threshold. It
Speaker 1: was almost like there was an opening to some of
Speaker 1: her reality or something behind it. So it was a
Speaker 1: really crazy experience. I don't know how how else to
Speaker 1: put it in terrified you want to go? Did you
Speaker 1: want to go into this other realm because I would, well,
Speaker 1: maybe not at five, but like today, i'd be like,
Speaker 1: let's go, let's go into there. But I guess at
Speaker 1: five years old, I probably wouldn't feel the way. Yeah,
Speaker 1: at five, I was just scared. But but then when
Speaker 1: the outer body experiences happened, it was something that I
Speaker 1: really wanted to explore. So that's when I got hold
Speaker 1: of a book on the subject, and then I literally
Speaker 1: I decided to dedicate a year because I read that
Speaker 1: it took a long time to learn often, so I
Speaker 1: decided to dedicate a year to systematically learning to have
Speaker 1: um have those experiences. So it actually took me six months,
Speaker 1: but I I practiced every single night for that whole period.
Speaker 1: So I don't know where that dedication came from. This
Speaker 1: is like thirteen and a half fourteen, But I just
Speaker 1: really wanted to do it. Okay, I have so many questions. Okay,
Speaker 1: so the first time it happened kind of freaky quick.
Speaker 1: But then you're like, I want to go into this.
Speaker 1: I want to learn how to do it and dive
Speaker 1: into it. How does how do you begin to teach
Speaker 1: yourself to have an out of body experience? Do you
Speaker 1: train yourself? Is it like like training on muscles at
Speaker 1: like vocal training, Like how do you just have to practice?
Speaker 1: You just have to It's kind of like self hypnosis.
Speaker 1: I guess what I did was I went and I
Speaker 1: found a book on subject. But the only book I
Speaker 1: could find was quite scientific, So it was more saying, ah,
Speaker 1: these experiences real That was more where it was coming from.
Speaker 1: But in the back of the book it had a
Speaker 1: few really simple techniques. The technique was just that you
Speaker 1: imagined you were floating on a cloud basically, and you
Speaker 1: had to keep imagining that. The idea was that eventually
Speaker 1: it would sort of trigger your unconscious mind to realize
Speaker 1: that that's what you're trying to do. You're trying to
Speaker 1: have an outward experience. Luckily we have much better techniques
Speaker 1: than that now, but at the time that was all
Speaker 1: I had. So I worked with this technique over and over,
Speaker 1: did it every single night, and then eventually, yeah, it
Speaker 1: led to this. Uh. I was almost at the point
Speaker 1: of giving up. Actually, I was kind of like, this
Speaker 1: isn't this isn't working. This is kind of like I've
Speaker 1: been doing this for months, if there's no point it's
Speaker 1: not going to work. I was sort of really disillusioned
Speaker 1: with it, and then so I sort of let go,
Speaker 1: and I wasn't sort of tensing up. I was sort
Speaker 1: of trying to make it happen anymore. I just sort
Speaker 1: of let go. And when I let go, it just
Speaker 1: like this huge energy went through me, which was a
Speaker 1: very positive energy. It felt very good. It was like
Speaker 1: a kind of just huge release of tension and stress
Speaker 1: and everything. It was just all kind of surge through me.
Speaker 1: And then I just that was when I found myself
Speaker 1: above my body, looking at the what looked like a
Speaker 1: photograph of myself. It was very still and kind of
Speaker 1: didn't seem alive in a sense, whereas the me that
Speaker 1: was outside of my body felt full of energy. It
Speaker 1: was almost like there was energy radiating off my body.
Speaker 1: The whole room was kind of lit up from the energy. UM,
Speaker 1: and I couldn't move very much. It was quite limited
Speaker 1: in that first experience. It was almost like I could
Speaker 1: only rotate kind of sort of like that. But um.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I just felt completely alive
Speaker 1: and completely energized. And then I came back to my
Speaker 1: body and I was just Yeah. From that point on,
Speaker 1: it was like the floodgates opened and I was like,
Speaker 1: I could do it pretty much whenever I want it. Then,
Speaker 1: like you could do it. I'm not going to ask
Speaker 1: you to, but like if you wanted to, you could
Speaker 1: like go and do that, Like after we have a chat,
Speaker 1: you can go have an out of body experience. Well,
Speaker 1: there's a tend to I tend to say, when the
Speaker 1: conditions are right. So if you if you think about, um,
Speaker 1: something like being creative for example, when you know, when
Speaker 1: when you feel like you can do artwork or do
Speaker 1: something like that and you just feel like you're in
Speaker 1: that right head space kind of thing, I tend to
Speaker 1: think it's similar to like being in the zone, you know. Um, So,
Speaker 1: so yeah, if I'm in the right kind of condition
Speaker 1: and everything feels right, then yeah, I can do it.
Speaker 1: But sometimes you just you know, like with anything you
Speaker 1: don't feel quite right and it doesn't doesn't work. But
Speaker 1: but yeah, most of the time when it's kind of
Speaker 1: feeling right, if I force it, if I try sort
Speaker 1: of too hard, odd than the quality of the experience
Speaker 1: will be quite lowing quality. But if I allow it, yes,
Speaker 1: then it's better. I think that's true in just life
Speaker 1: in general. I've started approaching life in general exactly what
Speaker 1: you just said, where you stop trying, Like I do
Speaker 1: believe that hard work and practicing something can help develop
Speaker 1: a skill, but I do think when you try to
Speaker 1: force something that's just unforceable, like an experience like that,
Speaker 1: or even making like a really like for me, as
Speaker 1: making a song that's like really emotional, Like I can
Speaker 1: sit there and try all day, but you never know
Speaker 1: when it's going to come. It almost comes when you
Speaker 1: stop trying so damn hard, which is so hard to
Speaker 1: stop trying when you're like, no, but I've tasted the magic.
Speaker 1: I want to have it, but you have to. So
Speaker 1: I've started looking at life like it like a wild
Speaker 1: tiger and I'm a cat lover. I don't know if
Speaker 1: this is going to make any sense, but in my mind,
Speaker 1: it's like you have to, like you can't be thirsty
Speaker 1: for the magic, like if they're going to interact with you,
Speaker 1: whatever it is, like the universe, God, energy, the wild tiger,
Speaker 1: whatever it is, you can't want it too bad because
Speaker 1: I feel like you want something too bad that energy
Speaker 1: repels whatever it is that you want so badly, and
Speaker 1: like you said, when you have to kind of let
Speaker 1: go of it and just allow it to happen. That's
Speaker 1: when the really magical stuff happens. I think, in my opinion,
Speaker 1: I agree, and I think that's actually one of the
Speaker 1: key secrets without body experiences. I think if someone is
Speaker 1: trying to learn, they need to maintain a kind of
Speaker 1: positive mental attitude. They need to be really kind of excited,
Speaker 1: look at it like they're exploring and trying to, you know,
Speaker 1: to discover something new and keep that kind of openness
Speaker 1: and that excitement, and if they do that, then the
Speaker 1: experience will unfold quite naturally. But um what, unfortunately, what
Speaker 1: most people do is they tend to kind of get
Speaker 1: this idea of the word projection. I did it myself.
Speaker 1: I had this idea that it was all about will
Speaker 1: power and projection and you know, I had to kind
Speaker 1: of make it happen kind of thing. And I think
Speaker 1: that's completely the wrong way to think about it. So
Speaker 1: when I let go of that, that's when the experiences
Speaker 1: really started happening. So now I tend to allow the
Speaker 1: experiences to happen when everything feels really right and good,
Speaker 1: and I'll just see where it goes. So I kind
Speaker 1: of go with the flow a lot more. Now. I
Speaker 1: love that I'm writing down and allow it. I feel
Speaker 1: like that's like the name of the game of my
Speaker 1: life right now. I'm just every time I don't know
Speaker 1: what I'm doing or what to do, I'm just like
Speaker 1: I'm gonna start trying to figure it out. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: sit back, I'm gonna allow it to play out. But
Speaker 1: I have like a super open heart, which also leads
Speaker 1: me to being super fucking gullible but trying to like
Speaker 1: find those boundaries in my life. But I yeah, allowing
Speaker 1: it to happen, which I'm such a control freak because
Speaker 1: I go like O, C, D, D H, you name it.
Speaker 1: I'm just like have so much wild energy. So just
Speaker 1: like sitting back and allowing things to happen does not
Speaker 1: necessarily come naturally to me, Like I like to get
Speaker 1: ship done and do it. I think the thing is,
Speaker 1: I think you can explore all these things and explore
Speaker 1: these avenues of how life and these kinds of experiences
Speaker 1: where they take you, um, But I think it's just
Speaker 1: being open to letting them take you somewhere. So you're
Speaker 1: being active in that sense, but you're not trying to
Speaker 1: say I have to go down this avenue or I
Speaker 1: have to do this particular thing, you're kind of allowing
Speaker 1: the experience to kind of take you in a particular direction.
Speaker 1: To give an example, in my EARLI out of body experiences,
Speaker 1: I was often trying to I had this idea that
Speaker 1: I needed to perfect everything, so I needed to be
Speaker 1: able to move and control every movement that I made
Speaker 1: and be completely in control of the experience. And so
Speaker 1: actually just going across the room in a straight line
Speaker 1: was really difficult. There's people tend to experience. They often
Speaker 1: call them astral tides. So it's almost like this energy
Speaker 1: that kind of moves through the space, and as you're
Speaker 1: trying to move, it can kind of make you drift
Speaker 1: in a different direction or something like that, and I
Speaker 1: I would try to go against that. I would try
Speaker 1: and go against the grain and try to say no,
Speaker 1: I want to go from here to that, and and
Speaker 1: doing that actually led me to waste a lot of
Speaker 1: amazing experiences. If I'd actually let myself go with that tide,
Speaker 1: or go with that energy and just see where I go,
Speaker 1: then it probably would have materialized into an amazing experience.
Speaker 1: But I was too caught up in controlling it that
Speaker 1: I was kind of missing the forest for the trees
Speaker 1: a little bit in those early days, but then I
Speaker 1: just started allowing the experiences to unfold, and then I
Speaker 1: would find myself, I don't know, in Cuba or like,
Speaker 1: you know, complete all different parts of the world, or
Speaker 1: or even in like these other levels of reality. They
Speaker 1: seem to be you know, like um beautiful natural environments
Speaker 1: that very much like what people describe in sort of
Speaker 1: heavenly type things. And then you know, all different kinds
Speaker 1: of experiences and situations where I would seemed to see
Speaker 1: something from the past or see something from the future,
Speaker 1: these kinds of things. So the experience is just completely
Speaker 1: open to so many possibilities. Really, so do you think
Speaker 1: it's almost like a little bit of time travel because
Speaker 1: time is relative little like inter dement Chanel Just like
Speaker 1: I'm trying to wrap my brain around it, because this
Speaker 1: is something I really have no experience with, but it
Speaker 1: just kind of sounds like when you let go of
Speaker 1: your physical constraint of your body, you can kind of
Speaker 1: go anywhere, but you have to ride the astral tie.
Speaker 1: I'm writing that down to that's going in a song.
Speaker 1: I've never heard that before, and I love it is.
Speaker 1: They're all gonna be like tattooed on my foot and
Speaker 1: like a song, so very inspiring. But like, have you
Speaker 1: ever been to Cuba in your body? Or just see that? Ye?
Speaker 1: See that? Actually, that experience I was thinking of was
Speaker 1: connected to someone who was very close to my family.
Speaker 1: It was from Cuba, um, and she died, and quite
Speaker 1: soon after she died. It was literally the last thing
Speaker 1: I've written in my diary. I had an outabuny experience
Speaker 1: and I went to Cuba. I worked out it was
Speaker 1: Cuba because of the way it looked from above and
Speaker 1: like all you know, the the coastal imagery and all
Speaker 1: of that kind of thing. And I worked out where
Speaker 1: I was, and I was thinking, why have I been
Speaker 1: drawn to Cuba? But then I opened my diary, which
Speaker 1: I have kept a diary since it was fourteen of
Speaker 1: most of my experiences. UM, so I started. I opened
Speaker 1: it to write this experience down, and there was the
Speaker 1: entry about the death of the family friend. And then
Speaker 1: I realized us she was born in Cuba, And suddenly
Speaker 1: it all kind of made sense that it was almost like, um,
Speaker 1: it was almost like a connection with her, or some
Speaker 1: kind of message from her, if you like, or something
Speaker 1: like that. So interesting is there a world where it's like,
Speaker 1: because I've done some hypnosis before but never reached what
Speaker 1: you're talking about, But is there science that backs out
Speaker 1: of body experience? I just like, I have no idea. Well,
Speaker 1: actually that's something I'm really passionate about as well. Um
Speaker 1: there is there are some researchers who have done work
Speaker 1: in the past. Um there was a guy called Alex
Speaker 1: Tennis who did research in the sort of eighties and
Speaker 1: with a research of all Carlos osis from that VIEA
Speaker 1: and they did experiments where they tried to sort of
Speaker 1: he would try to go and see targets and things
Speaker 1: like that. And then there's a researcher in Italy at
Speaker 1: the moment called Patricio Trisoldi who is doing research same
Speaker 1: kind of thing, looking at seeing targets and things like that.
Speaker 1: And then the Rhyme Research Center. I've done research with
Speaker 1: them looking at trying to again trying to see targets
Speaker 1: and things like that at a distance. So we did
Speaker 1: like about in weeks of different targets and things, and
Speaker 1: then I would try to have an experience or I
Speaker 1: tried different techniques not just outable the experiences. I tried
Speaker 1: to remote viewing. I tried different methodologies. I used sensory deprivation,
Speaker 1: mild sensory deprivation, all different things. UM. I have used tanks.
Speaker 1: In that particular instance, I used gangs felt, which is
Speaker 1: where you wear kind of headphones that play white noise
Speaker 1: or pink noise, and then you have kind of ping
Speaker 1: pong balls over your eyes, like half pink pom balls.
Speaker 1: So and then you have a red light in your eyes.
Speaker 1: The reason for this is it the red light make
Speaker 1: sure pupils dilate. But then you can only see this
Speaker 1: uniform red glow because of the dome over your eyes.
Speaker 1: And then what happens is your brain starts looking for information,
Speaker 1: so you start getting psychic information coming in. UM. So
Speaker 1: it's a way that you can take a very ordinary
Speaker 1: person off the street and give them a mild psychic experience.
Speaker 1: So they've used it in a lot of research. So
Speaker 1: that's really interesting to me. So if you take the
Speaker 1: average person, do you think every person has some sort
Speaker 1: of psychic ability? Yeah, basically yes, because I think so
Speaker 1: too the same way I think every person is an
Speaker 1: artist if they allow themselves to explore the avenue. But
Speaker 1: I guess I would a wonder like what was produced
Speaker 1: by all of these things you did? Well? It shows
Speaker 1: what they do is they create a statistic on how
Speaker 1: accurate it was. And basically the research shows that, um,
Speaker 1: people who go into the laboratory, even an average person
Speaker 1: does about six six to eight above chance. So what
Speaker 1: so if they were guessing, they would say get sort
Speaker 1: if they if they're doing the gang Spelled experiment with
Speaker 1: the sensory deprivation, they get about thirty three percent, so
Speaker 1: they go up. But when you control for people like
Speaker 1: me or creative types probably someone like you as well, UM,
Speaker 1: people will do significantly higher than that. So it gets
Speaker 1: up to more like accuracy and things like that. Um,
Speaker 1: the thing I was doing, the remote perceptions with that,
Speaker 1: there's there's been incredible results with those kinds of studies.
Speaker 1: And you know, I've also I've also had witnessed out
Speaker 1: body experiences where there were people present and then I
Speaker 1: had an out body experience and then we were able
Speaker 1: to verify the information and things like that. Okay, wait wait, wait,
Speaker 1: hold on, So you're being watched while you have an
Speaker 1: out of body experience and being like studied those experience
Speaker 1: is weren't so much the studying the experiences that I
Speaker 1: did during that fourteen week study, those were those were
Speaker 1: all under controlled conditions, so it was all completely blind
Speaker 1: and I had to look at studies. And then I've
Speaker 1: done some research with Dean Raiding at the Institute of
Speaker 1: Noitic Sciences which was literally like something out of a film.
Speaker 1: They put you in a still still box basically and
Speaker 1: kind of lock you in and that box is completely
Speaker 1: magnetically shielded, so there's no frequencies or anything can go
Speaker 1: into that box. And then I had to try and
Speaker 1: affect things on a quantum levels, on the most minute
Speaker 1: level of like physical reality. I had to try and
Speaker 1: influence quantum effects on that kind of level. What does
Speaker 1: that mean? Moving things or trying to like read what
Speaker 1: someone else is thinking, moving things on a on a
Speaker 1: quantum level. So have you heard of the double slit experiment? No,
Speaker 1: tell me about it please. Well it's a really interesting
Speaker 1: experiment because what they do is they've got these two
Speaker 1: slits and they shoot photons particles of light through these
Speaker 1: slits um with a thing called an interferometer. So it
Speaker 1: just sends these particles through and if someone looks observes
Speaker 1: the experiment, you get dots on either side like their particles. Right,
Speaker 1: if someone is not observing the experiment, you get a
Speaker 1: wave pattern. So basically the act of someone looking at
Speaker 1: it seems to change reality on a quantum level um.
Speaker 1: This is kind of what some people believe is going on,
Speaker 1: that there's literally that we are like when we interact
Speaker 1: with reality, reality changes um. So what the experiment deemed
Speaker 1: Radium was doing was he was wondering if this could
Speaker 1: happen on a psychic level, So could I affect reality
Speaker 1: on a quantum level, on that really minute level of reality?
Speaker 1: So could I cause a change in this like wave
Speaker 1: or particle pattern that you get. So basically I was
Speaker 1: in this box and I had to try and cause
Speaker 1: the particles to deviate from how they were usually functioning.
Speaker 1: And then he looked at the data statistically and would say, okay,
Speaker 1: yes it worked or yes it didn't work. So he
Speaker 1: found that overall with those experiments that it does work,
Speaker 1: and that basically people can affect things on a quantum
Speaker 1: level with their psychic ability. Basically, so that psychic ability
Speaker 1: or do you think that's just energy? Because if you
Speaker 1: take it to like physics, right, we're all energy. We
Speaker 1: all have energy. So this might not make any sense.
Speaker 1: I'm really visual, but there's sound waves, right, So I
Speaker 1: make sound as a job, so I see the sound waves,
Speaker 1: so I'm kind of imagining the light wave in a
Speaker 1: more sense, like if it's going like this, so with
Speaker 1: your mind, you made it kind of change direction, is
Speaker 1: what you're saying. Because that makes sense to me, because
Speaker 1: even just having a positive attitude or being kind to
Speaker 1: someone I feel like can change energetically your mood and
Speaker 1: also the mood of someone else. So it only makes
Speaker 1: sense that it's part of physics to me, like the
Speaker 1: energy that you're putting out would affect the things that
Speaker 1: are surrounding you, including sound waves, light waves. All of
Speaker 1: that sounds like it makes perfect sense to me, But
Speaker 1: I mean, is that far out. What a lot of
Speaker 1: the scientists would say is that they don't divide all
Speaker 1: these things up. I think a lot of the scientists
Speaker 1: are starting to think that consciousness might be a fundamental
Speaker 1: aspect of reality, that are our minds and our experience
Speaker 1: of the world might be as much a part of
Speaker 1: reality as light or sound or any of those things
Speaker 1: that literally um. Some of the near def experience researchers
Speaker 1: think that as we um when we have a near
Speaker 1: deaf experience or an out body experience, or um or
Speaker 1: when we die even that essentially it's like the filters
Speaker 1: taken off. Suddenly we're able to experience reality for the
Speaker 1: full spectrum of what it is. But while we're alive,
Speaker 1: we're kind of almost our brains are almost filtering it out.
Speaker 1: So there's Yeah, there's so much possibility for what could
Speaker 1: be going on. Really, I know, it trips me out.
Speaker 1: I don't know where to start with it. And then
Speaker 1: I'm like and then I'm stuck in my little sausage
Speaker 1: casing body and I forget, and then I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you're like you're a woman, your freckles, you're blunt, like
Speaker 1: the things like that. I'll totally forget until I see
Speaker 1: a mirror. But that's neither your No there. I want
Speaker 1: to ask you're about okay with the out of body experiences.
Speaker 1: Is there like a place you're trying? Is there like
Speaker 1: a goal I feel like I want to go into,
Speaker 1: like the ether, I want to go to the moon,
Speaker 1: or you just are open to wherever it's going to
Speaker 1: take you. In the early place you wanted to Yeah,
Speaker 1: in the early experiences, I was more focused on a
Speaker 1: particular place that I wanted to go. But then I
Speaker 1: guess a bit like what we were saying about intuition
Speaker 1: and guidance and sort of trusting things. Um, I started
Speaker 1: to find that when I allowed the experience to unfold,
Speaker 1: more interesting things would happen, or more challenging things. Um.
Speaker 1: You know. So I've generally just allowed the experience to
Speaker 1: unfold as it does. I mean, um, sometimes I will
Speaker 1: decide on trying to get to a particular location. Like
Speaker 1: one of the experiments that I was doing with the
Speaker 1: Institute of Noitic Sciences was I tried to go to
Speaker 1: their laboratory in and out of body experience and influence
Speaker 1: the experiment there from the UK. So I went there
Speaker 1: physically when I did the actual experiments, but then afterwards
Speaker 1: I tried to go back in an outbuddy experience and
Speaker 1: influence it from the other side of the world. So
Speaker 1: I don't know the results. How did that work. I
Speaker 1: don't know the results of that yet, but that was
Speaker 1: something that I tried to do. So well, then it's
Speaker 1: like then I'm like, you're basically a living go yeah,
Speaker 1: So then it rises, I mean, then the question arises
Speaker 1: like well, our ghosts necessarily dead people are not necessarily
Speaker 1: because people have seen me, and people see people while
Speaker 1: out of body as well, usually in the form of
Speaker 1: a kind of shadow figure, that's the most common. So
Speaker 1: it will literally be like a figure that looks like
Speaker 1: a shadow that's kind of moving around on its own.
Speaker 1: That kind of thing. Interesting, So when you were a kid,
Speaker 1: that maybe was like what you thought was a ghost,
Speaker 1: or the apparition could have actually just been it's possiblesible
Speaker 1: body experience. It's possible gateway didn't look like a shadow,
Speaker 1: didn't have that quality. But then again, some people have
Speaker 1: also not seen me, but some people have seen someone
Speaker 1: having an outbuddy experience and seen them exactly as they
Speaker 1: look in real life. So even down to being accurate
Speaker 1: about the clothes that that person head on on that
Speaker 1: particular day, which is really strange because that kind of
Speaker 1: then you've got the thing that they were wearing clothes,
Speaker 1: so they've had an out of body experience, gone to
Speaker 1: a different location their clothes, so it kind of suggests
Speaker 1: that maybe they're projecting some kind of image of themselves,
Speaker 1: you know how they usually look as well as you know,
Speaker 1: whatever else is going. So sometimes it's nondescript, like a shadow,
Speaker 1: but other times it's like a full image, including like
Speaker 1: clothes and details of their appearance and all of that.
Speaker 1: That's so interesting because I'm so I have so many
Speaker 1: ridiculous items of clothing, and I just wonder what I
Speaker 1: like to think that when I pass away, when I die,
Speaker 1: I either turned into a mushroom, or if I'm like
Speaker 1: going to this ether place, I wonder what I'll be wearing.
Speaker 1: Like I kind of hope I'll be like naked with
Speaker 1: a sparkly cape on with just covered and glitter, and
Speaker 1: I think I'll be turquoise, and I don't know. I
Speaker 1: just wonder. I'm hoping. Basically, I'm asking you you are
Speaker 1: confirming that that's probably what I'll look like in that
Speaker 1: for life definitely perfect. That's how I needed to know
Speaker 1: because I was reading something you'd said about how you
Speaker 1: you were having an out about the experience and you
Speaker 1: think maybe saw from a distance people that were like
Speaker 1: in transition between life and death. Is that right? Oh? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I had. They tend to call it a shared death
Speaker 1: experience now where you literally see the kind of deaf
Speaker 1: experience of someone else. Um, so in that in that experience.
Speaker 1: So that's an example of kind of amazing stuff that
Speaker 1: if you don't force the experience in any direction, that
Speaker 1: can happen. So I found myself it was quite classical
Speaker 1: about sort of a laughter life kind of type of environment.
Speaker 1: It was very misty, kind of cloudy looked, you know,
Speaker 1: literally like bellowing cloud. There was no up, no down.
Speaker 1: You couldn't really see any surface or or sky or
Speaker 1: it was just all this kind of misty environment and
Speaker 1: around sort of about a hundred twos from where I was.
Speaker 1: It's the best estimate I can give. There was a
Speaker 1: group of people and they all seemed um, not stressed,
Speaker 1: but confused. They all seemed like they didn't know what
Speaker 1: was happening where they were, what was going on UM.
Speaker 1: And as they sort of settled into the experience, as
Speaker 1: they started to feel more in tune with what was
Speaker 1: going on, UM, some of them, it was literally like
Speaker 1: I was seeing their thoughts. It was like this sort
Speaker 1: of um almost like a screen opened up around some
Speaker 1: of their heads and I could see memories, thoughts, perceptions
Speaker 1: of There was one guy in the foreground, like the
Speaker 1: closest to me. UM. He was sort of an older guy. UM.
Speaker 1: He seemed to be struggling, and I saw in the
Speaker 1: imagery in his mind this man who had very like
Speaker 1: leavery sort of skin, very dark tan. He looked like
Speaker 1: he'd worked outside his whole life, very very kind of
Speaker 1: looked like he'd been beaten by the sun for for
Speaker 1: years kind of thing. Um. And I kind of interpreted
Speaker 1: this as probably his father, and he was kind of
Speaker 1: seen there seemed to be tension between him and his father,
Speaker 1: and he was struggling with this tension, and slowly it
Speaker 1: was kind of seemed to be getting resolved, um, but
Speaker 1: he was he was struggling. And then I looked across
Speaker 1: the group and then there was I think it was
Speaker 1: a woman on the far side of the group, and
Speaker 1: she was the complete opposite. She seemed to be really
Speaker 1: open and light and she wasn't stressed by any of
Speaker 1: the situation um, and she just basically just drifted off
Speaker 1: into into the sort of mist, and it was like
Speaker 1: it was like she transitioned. She just went from one
Speaker 1: level to another, like quite smoothly and easily. So within
Speaker 1: the group, there were different levels of intensity of the
Speaker 1: process they were going through, so it was literally like
Speaker 1: what they call a life review. In near death experience research.
Speaker 1: So they were going through this process and then they
Speaker 1: drifted away. So after this experience, it was in the morning,
Speaker 1: I came back from the out body experience and I
Speaker 1: was kind of like this, I felt so real, This
Speaker 1: was so like a peak experience. I tent to call
Speaker 1: them like something that's like beyond anything I normally experienced.
Speaker 1: And I remember, I think it was on the TV.
Speaker 1: Later that day there was a news report that basically
Speaker 1: said there'd been a plane crash in Norway, um on
Speaker 1: an island off of Norway called Sabat, and a hundred
Speaker 1: and forty people had died in that crash, which was
Speaker 1: exactly the like the number that I'd seen, and most
Speaker 1: of them were you Rainian or Russian kind of descent,
Speaker 1: which is also what they look like to me and
Speaker 1: the experience, so it was like I got a confirmation
Speaker 1: in physical reality that what I'd seen in that experience
Speaker 1: was a real experience. Basically, that's so interesting to me
Speaker 1: because like for all the reasons, but I guess, witnessing
Speaker 1: the crossing over of other souls, I have like so
Speaker 1: many questions. First of all, when you're doing this, do
Speaker 1: you have like feet and hands and like, are you like,
Speaker 1: do you look like a person? Are you more just
Speaker 1: like I feel like a ball of energy? Um. That
Speaker 1: that depends. Sometimes I have a body, but more commonly
Speaker 1: now I'm more like a ball of energy. Um. But
Speaker 1: in the early it's it's interesting. I think that in
Speaker 1: our early experiences, we tend to think of ourselves kind
Speaker 1: of like um, as a body, as a person, So
Speaker 1: you tend to experience yourself as a as a body.
Speaker 1: But I think as the process guys on, as you
Speaker 1: become more familiar with being in an outputty experience, it
Speaker 1: tends to sort of shift and you start to experience
Speaker 1: more as a kind of an ORB or or something
Speaker 1: like that, which I've also had an orban experience. So
Speaker 1: that's another thing. Okay, wait, what's the Okay, wait, hold on,
Speaker 1: So you tend you tend to be more of an
Speaker 1: orb and you've had an orbit experience. I'm going to
Speaker 1: circle back to that one second. But the plane crash
Speaker 1: that people they still look like people, like fully clothed
Speaker 1: in the whole thing. Okay, So now the orb experience,
Speaker 1: because I've also heard that. I was talking to Demi
Speaker 1: Lovato and she was talking about kind of um experiencing
Speaker 1: like through meditation, extraterrestrial contact, and she was showing me
Speaker 1: photos of these blue green um golden I personally saw
Speaker 1: ones that were like orange fire colored like these orbs,
Speaker 1: and so I want to not like a it could
Speaker 1: be extra treasure. We could I'll be talking about the
Speaker 1: same thing and be what's your ORB experience? Well, I agree,
Speaker 1: I don't know what it was. But I was meditating
Speaker 1: with a friend of mine. He's a musician. Actually we were.
Speaker 1: We were sitting meditating and just kind of very calm,
Speaker 1: had sort of a very peaceful music on. We was
Speaker 1: sitting there and suddenly, at the top of the kind
Speaker 1: of weather ceiling and the wall meet, this kind of
Speaker 1: ball of energy just moved through the wall um at
Speaker 1: the at that level, and it was about the size
Speaker 1: of a basketball and it and it drifted down slowly
Speaker 1: in front of us and stopped at kind of like
Speaker 1: our eye level between me and him. UM. I looked
Speaker 1: at him and he kind of gesture to me that yeah,
Speaker 1: he was also seeing this um and we just we
Speaker 1: looked at it and it seemed to just radiate this energy.
Speaker 1: It was green, like opaque green um, and it was
Speaker 1: just radiating a very positive energy. It was like a
Speaker 1: kind of love energy even. It was just really we
Speaker 1: just felt incredible kind of sitting there and we just
Speaker 1: kind of watched it. And then it stayed there for
Speaker 1: quite a while, maybe as long as ten minutes or
Speaker 1: something like that. Um, and we were just fixated on it,
Speaker 1: and we almost felt like we were communicating with it,
Speaker 1: but on a sort of an emotional level. Um. And
Speaker 1: then it drifted away. I don't remember exactly, but it
Speaker 1: kind of drifted away. So, yeah, that was my experience
Speaker 1: with a or. But I don't know what it was
Speaker 1: that I put it down to being a spirit because
Speaker 1: that was my reference if you like my filter. But
Speaker 1: you know, you could easily also interpret that in it
Speaker 1: as a kind of alien or I don't know, extraterrestrial.
Speaker 1: It could be a spirit that's passed on. It could
Speaker 1: be somebody else astral projecting or having an out of
Speaker 1: body experience. It's so crazy. There's so many there's so
Speaker 1: many possibilities. And I feel like usually when I talked
Speaker 1: to a large majority of people about this kind of stuff,
Speaker 1: they like giggle, And I mean not to generalize, but
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna like most of the men I have
Speaker 1: dated like cis gender white straight man like laugh at
Speaker 1: me when I talk about this stuff. So I was like,
Speaker 1: is it because I'm an artist? Is because I'm a woman?
Speaker 1: Is it because I have always have had this really
Speaker 1: strange relationship with my body where it just felt like
Speaker 1: it wasn't mine? Since I remember having about it, I
Speaker 1: was like, Oh, this is my vehicle. So does say
Speaker 1: for this lifetime for my soul. But it's so nice
Speaker 1: to have this conversation because I do feel like leading
Speaker 1: us somewhat spiritual existence has made my life so much
Speaker 1: happier and more positive and better and also be able
Speaker 1: to weed out like what's actually good for not only
Speaker 1: myself but other people on the planet. I agree, And
Speaker 1: I think I think what you just said about men,
Speaker 1: I think there is really a kind of hits to
Speaker 1: do with this kind of role of masculinity and how
Speaker 1: people are supposed to be in society. And I think
Speaker 1: often men do get caught up in this thing that
Speaker 1: they should not engage with those kinds of things they
Speaker 1: should sort of because they're not you know, they too
Speaker 1: we were? Were they too emotional? Which is you know,
Speaker 1: things like that. So I think I think there's a
Speaker 1: degree of sort of toxic masculinity and those kind of
Speaker 1: ways of approaching things, which is really unfortunate thing because
Speaker 1: you get the same thing with you know, things like
Speaker 1: veganism and stuff like that. You know, people get very yeah,
Speaker 1: because I'm also vegan, and I kind of see that
Speaker 1: a part of my spiritual sort of identity as well.
Speaker 1: And I feel it's a shame that a lot of
Speaker 1: these sort of masculine viewpoints kind of stop people doing
Speaker 1: better things in their lives. Specifically, it's so true because
Speaker 1: of some sort of societal system that makes no sense,
Speaker 1: yet we all kind of conform and adhere to it
Speaker 1: until you hit a certain point, which I feel like
Speaker 1: has happened really over time for me at least, but
Speaker 1: where I started being like, wait, why am I even
Speaker 1: doing that thing? I don't stand for that. I don't
Speaker 1: want to do that, I don't want to wear that,
Speaker 1: I don't want to say that. But it just seemed
Speaker 1: like it was part of what I was supposed to
Speaker 1: behave like and I think for you know, a lot
Speaker 1: of men that I've met, these conversations just like they
Speaker 1: just dip out, They're like, no, I'm good, So I
Speaker 1: like love having this conversation with you. It's great because
Speaker 1: I do think there's an element of the masculinity that's
Speaker 1: supposed to be not emotional, and I feel like, as
Speaker 1: such an emotional creature, I could do being less emotional,
Speaker 1: but there's so many men I see that I just
Speaker 1: want to be like, it's okay, you cry. Like maybe
Speaker 1: the world would be like, like less aggressive if everybody
Speaker 1: was just a little bit more emotionally open and felt
Speaker 1: safe doing that. Yeah, I think I think informity is
Speaker 1: a big problem in general, you know. I think that
Speaker 1: I think without a body experiences and all these things
Speaker 1: they took me away from maybe a lot of that
Speaker 1: need to be a particular way in my life. So
Speaker 1: I think having those experiences made me think, no, I'm
Speaker 1: going to walk my own path. I'm not going to
Speaker 1: sort of follow this herd mentality that a lot of
Speaker 1: people get sucked into and just sort of explore what
Speaker 1: it is to be human and what all these experiences
Speaker 1: mean and all these kinds of things. So I just
Speaker 1: was exploring all these different areas that maybe a lot
Speaker 1: of mainstream society rejects from the age of like fourteen
Speaker 1: or whatever. That's I love that I wish I had
Speaker 1: been more into spiritual stuff when I was at age.
Speaker 1: I was just into like trying to make out with
Speaker 1: like senior boys, and I was playing the saxophone in
Speaker 1: the marching band. It was not cool. It was it
Speaker 1: was not having out about the experiences. I wish I
Speaker 1: was like you got like a head start onto deeper
Speaker 1: cool ship. So you have, of course on how to
Speaker 1: like do this? Do you teach people? Oh my god,
Speaker 1: I kind of do it all right? How do I
Speaker 1: sign up for it? I have an online course and
Speaker 1: I do private tuition, So I I love teaching people.
Speaker 1: I think it's like so fulfilling to kind of give
Speaker 1: people that kind of variance and see where they can
Speaker 1: go with it. I've also got technology that I developed,
Speaker 1: which is sound technology that helps get you to the
Speaker 1: vibrational state, which is the pre state to the outbordy experience.
Speaker 1: It's like the launching pad. So if you can get
Speaker 1: to that point, then it's much easier to have an
Speaker 1: outbordy experience. So I developed that as well. So what
Speaker 1: does that It's infraliminal sound, So the infra part means
Speaker 1: infra sounds, so it's very low level sound. Frequencies that
Speaker 1: cause a mild shift in in your sort of conscious state.
Speaker 1: And then it's also got subliminal messages to sort of
Speaker 1: help you tune into the out body experience. So it's
Speaker 1: kind of a combination of those two things. So UM,
Speaker 1: and it uses the frequencies to kind of guide you
Speaker 1: into that pre state of the out body experience. Basically,
Speaker 1: what are the Okay when I hear when I think
Speaker 1: of subliminal messages, I can't help but think like, oh,
Speaker 1: that sounds like manipulative unless I know what it is.
Speaker 1: So what are you saying, Like, what's the subliminal message
Speaker 1: just to have enough body experience? It's it's just literally
Speaker 1: too um, because I think a lot of the process
Speaker 1: of inducing an outbuddy experience is getting the message to
Speaker 1: your unconscious mind. Because I think what tends to happen
Speaker 1: is we lay there trying to induce an outbuddy experience,
Speaker 1: but sort of our conscious mind doesn't quite get what's
Speaker 1: going on in that You can't sort of fully induce
Speaker 1: it just from a conscious state, so you have to
Speaker 1: get it into your unconscious in order to trigger the experience.
Speaker 1: So the subliminals help with that. UM. So you can
Speaker 1: also do it from a sleep state as well. But
Speaker 1: there's two different versions. Are you like whisper talking in
Speaker 1: the background, like saying things? Are the frequencies are I'll
Speaker 1: just have to listen to you. You don't hear anything.
Speaker 1: The main thing is the frequencies. But then there's there's
Speaker 1: just these subtle sort of affirmations call them affirmations that
Speaker 1: are layered into the frequencies. But the main thing what
Speaker 1: we did is we did we experimented with ways of
Speaker 1: um altering consciousness using frequencies. So when you listen to
Speaker 1: music or you listen to sound, we all know there's
Speaker 1: an emotional change or there's a change in how we
Speaker 1: feel when we do that. So basically experimented with, okay,
Speaker 1: if we put this kind of frequency, how does that
Speaker 1: make the person feel? Do they feel better? Do they
Speaker 1: feel more peaceful? You know what? How does that frequency
Speaker 1: affect people? So we went through and basically created a
Speaker 1: pattern of frequencies that will help you get if you
Speaker 1: follow them, like almost like a meditation. You go with
Speaker 1: the sound frequencies. It's almost like a mantra or something
Speaker 1: like that, but in a recording, So a mantra or
Speaker 1: like the sound that you hear when when you hear
Speaker 1: like Buddhist monks or something like that, they're using sound
Speaker 1: to get their consciousness to a particular point. And basically
Speaker 1: I've kind of distilled that into frequencies in a in
Speaker 1: a recording, so you can listen to that and it
Speaker 1: will guide you to that point. Um. And then if
Speaker 1: you combine that with the techniques, then it's much easier
Speaker 1: to have an out body experience. So it makes it
Speaker 1: more like a couple of months of work rather than
Speaker 1: six months or whatever. Wait, I really want to do it, Okay,
Speaker 1: just for myself, but and everybody listening, how would they
Speaker 1: sign up for that? Do you have a website? They
Speaker 1: can go to Graham Nicols dot com, which is Nickels
Speaker 1: with two l's um, and yeah, they can get everything there.
Speaker 1: The infra eliminal tracks are on there, or they can
Speaker 1: get the course and there's kind of packages you get
Speaker 1: course with the infraliminal and they can even get the
Speaker 1: course infraliminal and I'll answer their questions as a one
Speaker 1: on one option as well. The whole thing. I love that.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna try it. I mean, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: try it. Fuck it, I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: try it. Um. I wanted to ask you about because
Speaker 1: I was reading something you had written about the importance
Speaker 1: of solitude and as someone who is never by themselves ever,
Speaker 1: like ever, like even when I go pe, I'll have
Speaker 1: someone following me asking me a question about something. Never alone,
Speaker 1: and I like being around people, like I'm just always
Speaker 1: around a ton of people. And maybe I'm used to it.
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm codependent. Maybe I don't know what it is,
Speaker 1: but so what do you think it is so important
Speaker 1: about being alone? Um, I'm not sure it's important for everyone,
Speaker 1: but I think it can be a really powerful way
Speaker 1: to connect with those inner experiences and listen to the
Speaker 1: kind of levels of your awareness and your consciousness that
Speaker 1: maybe you don't hear if you're kind of constantly around
Speaker 1: chatter and other people a lot like you do with
Speaker 1: meditation and things like that. So, UM, I tend to
Speaker 1: like to go off into nature and kind of connect
Speaker 1: with nature and just spend some time on my own.
Speaker 1: And it's almost a bit of a shamanic thing and
Speaker 1: a little bit um. I also was initiated and part
Speaker 1: of like witchcraft when I was quite young. So that
Speaker 1: was also interconnected with all this. So um, I've sort
Speaker 1: of kept wait, what do you mean, Um, you're initiating
Speaker 1: the witchcraft. You have to tell me what that means. Well,
Speaker 1: when I was fourteen and I was getting into all
Speaker 1: this stuff, um, I guess when I was looking into
Speaker 1: out of all the experiences and astral projection and all
Speaker 1: that stuff, I came across witchcraft and things like that
Speaker 1: as well. So I found a coven um who did
Speaker 1: a blend of Alexandria and wicker and also um, traditional
Speaker 1: English witchcraft is how they referred to it. So I
Speaker 1: got involved with them, and I got initiated with them,
Speaker 1: and so I learned a lot of processes for sort
Speaker 1: of connecting with nature and going out into nature and
Speaker 1: doing trance work and things like that out in nature.
Speaker 1: So I guess that's more the more like using the
Speaker 1: body and being very physical and being out in in
Speaker 1: amongst the woods or whatever and kind of just connecting
Speaker 1: in that kind of way. So um, I'm very I'm
Speaker 1: very kind of explore any avenue that I think has
Speaker 1: value and that will work and be useful and interesting.
Speaker 1: So I've just always been open to all those things.
Speaker 1: So yeah, me too. I love it, and I love
Speaker 1: like I'll go on tour and be playing shows with
Speaker 1: tons of energy and tons of people and just like wild,
Speaker 1: wild energy. And then my like come down off of
Speaker 1: that is I like to go into the middle of
Speaker 1: nowhere and camp and like just like be around absolutely
Speaker 1: no one. Or I love scuba diving because I feel
Speaker 1: like it's the only time I ever get to really
Speaker 1: be alone. Okay, so but I have to put on
Speaker 1: a fucking tank and go under the ocean for people
Speaker 1: not to bother. The camping sounds similar to what I do.
Speaker 1: I often go off into the woods and all that
Speaker 1: kind of stuff, so and decamping, and yeah, I find
Speaker 1: I find that I like to do that at least
Speaker 1: once a year or something where can just sort of
Speaker 1: connect and and often I find that my experiences with
Speaker 1: the out of body stuff will get better if I
Speaker 1: do that, So it gives me that extra kind of
Speaker 1: boost if I do something like that. In sensory deprivation,
Speaker 1: like you were talking about the tanks earlier, something like
Speaker 1: that as well. I think it's just that being in
Speaker 1: that total stillness and being completely kind of away from
Speaker 1: any kind of imagery and sound and all that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff, and just having that period just allows your
Speaker 1: it's like a reset, allows your consciousness and your experience
Speaker 1: to just reset, and then you can just when you
Speaker 1: try to do something after that just tends to flow
Speaker 1: and be so much better. Um, that's how. But do
Speaker 1: you have the problem of like your brain just being
Speaker 1: like that's how I would describe my brain. My brain
Speaker 1: is quite like that. So I think I need things
Speaker 1: to kind of the kind of tune it out, you know. Um,
Speaker 1: I definitely am more of a constantly coming up with
Speaker 1: ideas and constantly exploring new areas and constantly learning. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm just NonStop with that. So I think that these
Speaker 1: kind of practices allow me to maybe turn that off
Speaker 1: a little bit into kind of reconnect with something else.
Speaker 1: I called myself a spiritual explorer, and then somebody wants
Speaker 1: in an interview called me a nature punk, which is
Speaker 1: like my favorite thing ever. I was like, I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm being seen for who I truly am. But
Speaker 1: I don't know, I just feel like if a kindred
Speaker 1: spirit in those regions, I'm creative. But Okay, I have
Speaker 1: one more question, because I know we're like about at
Speaker 1: a time, but I have one question, just because I
Speaker 1: don't quite understand what is the difference between astral projection
Speaker 1: and and of body experience or can are they can?
Speaker 1: Can they be the same thing? Are they two separate things?
Speaker 1: I guess what most people that the way most people
Speaker 1: divide the two is to say that UM, a'stu projection
Speaker 1: is an intentional our body experience. So you could have
Speaker 1: an our body experience spontaneously like I did when I
Speaker 1: was a kid. You can just sort of lay down
Speaker 1: and UM, it might happen, or you know, people have
Speaker 1: them in all different contexts and situations. So M and
Speaker 1: our body experiences like I mentioned that thing of that
Speaker 1: you feel yourself out of your physical body and you
Speaker 1: experience the world from that out of body vantage points.
Speaker 1: So that's what it feels like, UM. But astral projection
Speaker 1: is the process of trying to make that happen in
Speaker 1: an intentional way. And I guess the term astral projection
Speaker 1: also comes from more like esoteric writings, So our body
Speaker 1: is more like the scientific modern term UM, whereas astral
Speaker 1: projection is more than classical, going back into hermetic traditions
Speaker 1: and philosophy and all these esoteric ideas from the past.
Speaker 1: They used to use that kind of context, and in
Speaker 1: those ideas, you have multiple bodies in that philosophy. So
Speaker 1: they say an etheric body, which is operates on this
Speaker 1: plane on the physical plane, and then the astral body
Speaker 1: operates on the astral plane, and then there's more after that.
Speaker 1: I don't really subscribe to all that, but that's where
Speaker 1: the term astral comes from. It literally comes from from
Speaker 1: astra like meaning like like a star. So um, it
Speaker 1: literally means like star projection or you know, like it
Speaker 1: being like a star, making yourself like a starter, I guess, um,
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's that's really the difference. But I've started
Speaker 1: using independent consciousness experience aliens as well. That's my new
Speaker 1: sort of term, which is basically because then it doesn't
Speaker 1: focus so much on the idea of a body. It's
Speaker 1: more like I can experience myself, my consciousness independent and
Speaker 1: kind of out there in the world, functioning in its
Speaker 1: own way. So it's kind of a bit different to
Speaker 1: this thing that just focuses on sort of coming out
Speaker 1: the body, you know, because often people sort of get
Speaker 1: fixated on this idea of being above their body looking
Speaker 1: back at themselves lead line below, And I think, what's
Speaker 1: most interesting about our body experiences is this when your
Speaker 1: consciousness expands and your experience like an interconnectedness with all
Speaker 1: of life and reality you like. So it's kind of
Speaker 1: when you just don't know what you're going to learn
Speaker 1: and what you're going to experience. I think that's the
Speaker 1: most fascinating part about it. In many ways, you're not
Speaker 1: so focused on the separation of spirit and body. You're
Speaker 1: just open to expansion of consciousness. Yeah, because at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, I think no one really wants
Speaker 1: to just come out of their body just so they
Speaker 1: can look at themselves on their bed. Um. That sounds terrifying. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's not That's not really what most people are interested in.
Speaker 1: Most people, I think, are interested in experiencing other levels
Speaker 1: of reality. Um, you know, asking those questions like about
Speaker 1: life after death, um, experiencing sort of interconnectedness with other life,
Speaker 1: like other beings, all those kinds of things, you know,
Speaker 1: asking those bigger questions. I think. So cool. All right, Well,
Speaker 1: I'm going to sign up at Graham Nickels with two
Speaker 1: els dot com. Yes, is that right. What's the name
Speaker 1: of your book? Well, the first my first book is
Speaker 1: called Avenues of the Human Spirit. Um, and that one
Speaker 1: explores all of my own kind of journey and all
Speaker 1: of that kind of thing like um, including how it's
Speaker 1: sort of spiritually changed me and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: Coming from a very sort of working class background and
Speaker 1: you know, very sort of ordinary kind of outlook on
Speaker 1: life and how that shifted. And then the second book,
Speaker 1: which is called Navigating the Out of Body Experience. That
Speaker 1: one there's a sort of new edition coming out, but
Speaker 1: it's also available with my course. Can I ask you
Speaker 1: a really like a couple of very stupid questions that
Speaker 1: are real m but fun. If you hate one, you
Speaker 1: can be like, I don't want answer. Okay, if you
Speaker 1: had a cult, what would be the dress code? Nudity? Nudity?
Speaker 1: I agree fully agree, Like why did we I have
Speaker 1: so many clothes, but like I would like to have
Speaker 1: none except for maybe just one keep just for fun,
Speaker 1: for fair, like just for pizzas, you know, not for anything,
Speaker 1: like to cover anything, just not out of necessity. If
Speaker 1: you were a ghost, which you might be a ghost
Speaker 1: when you're projecting yourself over the living one, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: which is a trip. But okay, so would you how
Speaker 1: would you haunt and who would you haunt? There anybody
Speaker 1: you would want to hunt, just like funk with um.
Speaker 1: The thing is a lot of people probably like I
Speaker 1: probably would like probably move around like try some people
Speaker 1: there that some people there just move around the world,
Speaker 1: like checking out, checking out what's really going on behind
Speaker 1: the scenes, check out what's what the secret secrets of
Speaker 1: the world really come down to. The Vatican would be interesting.
Speaker 1: I think they're really up to behind the scenes. It
Speaker 1: would be interesting behind like politics and major religions. I
Speaker 1: just want to go see what's up. Well, thank you
Speaker 1: so much Graham Nichols for being here, Thank you everybody
Speaker 1: for listening, and keep on creeping on.