Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Stephanomics, the podcast that brings the
Speaker 1: global economy to you. Trade wars are good and easy
Speaker 1: to win. That was President Trump's famous tweet just over
Speaker 1: a year ago when he announced tariff's on steel and
Speaker 1: aluminum from China and other countries. There have been plenty
Speaker 1: of twists and turns in the trade wars since then,
Speaker 1: But who's winning well, Trade lawyers definitely, and yes, trade
Speaker 1: reporters are. World Trade team here at Bloomberg has doubled
Speaker 1: in the past year. But when it comes to countries,
Speaker 1: economic theory says no one really wins a trade war.
Speaker 1: And if you look at the way the trade battles
Speaker 1: have hurt exports in China and raised costs and uncertainty
Speaker 1: for US businesses, you'd be inclined to agree, but we
Speaker 1: might be looking in the wrong place. In a minute,
Speaker 1: I'm going to talk to Bloomberg's Asian Economy columnist Dan
Speaker 1: Moss about the impact of trade wars and tougher global
Speaker 1: competition on Asia. But first, our Southeast Asian Economies reporter
Speaker 1: Michelle jam Riscoe has been to one country that does
Speaker 1: seem to be winning Donald Trump's trade war. This is Vietnam,
Speaker 1: where motorbikes raced through the streets of the capital Hanoi.
Speaker 1: Forty years after the war with America, the Vietnamese have
Speaker 1: the most favorable opinion of the US out of any
Speaker 1: foreign populace, according to the Pew Research Center, and Donald
Speaker 1: Trump may just have given them another reason to like
Speaker 1: America in the form of his trade war with China.
Speaker 1: That's because the tariff battle is giving a boost to
Speaker 1: Vietnam's economy, which was already one of the world's fastest
Speaker 1: growing thanks in part to foreign business is looking for
Speaker 1: cheaper factories my college when you in and I visited Shenwa,
Speaker 1: a furniture maker in Hanoi, to get a firsthand look
Speaker 1: at how Vietnamese business is reaping the benefits. Shenwa started
Speaker 1: as a bicycle company in and in the decades since
Speaker 1: has evolved into a big brand within Vietnam for home
Speaker 1: office and even the seats in parliament. But it also
Speaker 1: has a solid portfolio of long time international partners like
Speaker 1: Aikia and Toyota. A family that's growing in part thanks
Speaker 1: to those tariffs. Here's CEO Laid Wei Ang. We expect
Speaker 1: new orders to increase a lot due to the trade war,
Speaker 1: but it's hard to quantify it. Right now, there are
Speaker 1: more companies getting in touch with us to switch from
Speaker 1: China to our products, but in order to turn them
Speaker 1: into real contracts, we still have a lot to do
Speaker 1: and many things to change. It's quite difficult to compete
Speaker 1: with China in terms of quantity and cost. Here on
Speaker 1: Ang's factory floor is where that struggle to compete with
Speaker 1: China is playing out, and already with some success. You
Speaker 1: can tell Ang really wants to prioritize not just quantity
Speaker 1: but quality. He aims to compete with Japanese craftsmanship very much.
Speaker 1: In each of these buildings, you can smell the burnt
Speaker 1: metal and creative sparks flying work. Here's still gently at
Speaker 1: each of their stations in different zones, organized as Mr
Speaker 1: Ain said in a system that they took from Ng.
Speaker 1: An average size, boyish looking man with a big smile
Speaker 1: proudly escorts us around his village of factory buildings about
Speaker 1: an hour outside downtown Hannoi. We're just the latest onlookers.
Speaker 1: In the past three months, he's been visited by about
Speaker 1: ten potential new clients who are considering moving orders from
Speaker 1: China to Shenhwa. They've come from all over both the
Speaker 1: U s and China, as well as South Korea and Japan,
Speaker 1: and also from much further away like Romania. He's almost
Speaker 1: sure the fresh business will help him smash a growth target.
Speaker 1: For his point is driven home during our tour as
Speaker 1: a South Korean businessman walks by in a hard hat
Speaker 1: browsing products he'd like to sell to the U. S
Speaker 1: Ang pauses his tutorial about how NA has boosted productivity
Speaker 1: by shaving seconds off the process of bending the initial medal.
Speaker 1: He points out the latest visitor strolling the floors excitedly
Speaker 1: interjecting in English, a prongfolio, and I thought to me
Speaker 1: right now, Ang seems most focused on a new Canadian client,
Speaker 1: manufacturer distributor Conglam, whose executives are scrapping their Chinese sourcing
Speaker 1: and looking instead to order from NA, including cabinets they
Speaker 1: ship to US customers. Ang says this is exactly the
Speaker 1: type of order that his business has been working toward,
Speaker 1: as they buy new machinery and become more efficient on
Speaker 1: the factory floor. The most difficult things now is increasing
Speaker 1: quality and ensuring good quality of our products while trying
Speaker 1: to reduce costs to meet clients requirements and to be
Speaker 1: more competitive. The gains in productivity have allowed aim to
Speaker 1: raise salaries about eight percent each year for the past
Speaker 1: three years, he says, more than double the rate of inflation.
Speaker 1: One of his workers, forty six year old Havantan, has
Speaker 1: been at China for twenty two years, and both that
Speaker 1: the recent bumping business allowed him to buy a new
Speaker 1: motorbike for his family last year. My wife is much
Speaker 1: happier since I got higher income from the company, so
Speaker 1: we have a better life now. I also have better
Speaker 1: health as the working environment here has become better than
Speaker 1: it was previously. Ain showed off the cabinets and test
Speaker 1: phase that China was perfecting to close the deal with
Speaker 1: Conglong later, he offers up a more concrete example of
Speaker 1: where his company has already gained from the trade war.
Speaker 1: Akia has done business with Shenois for more than seventeen years.
Speaker 1: Last year, the Swedish furniture giant gave Shenwis some more
Speaker 1: business by switching from a Chinese vendor that could hike
Speaker 1: prices due to tariffs. Achia began buying these twenty cent
Speaker 1: metal parts from Shenois, which Ain pulled off a newer machine.
Speaker 1: On our tour, I met Sebastian Eckert, the World Bank's
Speaker 1: lead Vietnam economist, in an eighth floor meeting room that
Speaker 1: overlooks an especially buzzy intersection with tourists and teens snapping
Speaker 1: photos in front of Hannoi's historic opera house across the way.
Speaker 1: Eckert put things into perspective. Vietnam, of course, um, you know,
Speaker 1: even before the recent tensions, in many ways, has picked
Speaker 1: up activities where China basically move. We've moved on ind right,
Speaker 1: So a lot of the the FDI that VS actually
Speaker 1: is is relocation from China, and I think this the
Speaker 1: recent chansions they probably accelerate that for some instant, that's
Speaker 1: a keyword. I've been hearing a lot accelerate. The penalties
Speaker 1: targeted at China and the broader demand slow down there
Speaker 1: have given an extra nudge in Vietnam's favor. Not only
Speaker 1: that the government is loosing its grip on commerce. At
Speaker 1: the start of Sunwa, then a state owned company was
Speaker 1: fully privatized, and now an owns a stake in the firm.
Speaker 1: Eckert sees Vietnamese agencies cleaning up regulations brainstorming on tough
Speaker 1: reforms like intellectual property rights and adding more free trade
Speaker 1: agreements to their impressive lineup. It's all earned them better
Speaker 1: spots and international rankings like the World Banks Ease of
Speaker 1: Doing Business Index and the World Economic Forums Competitiveness Index.
Speaker 1: That's really come back. And I think that's very healthy,
Speaker 1: and it's something that is structural, that reflects a rising
Speaker 1: middle class, increasingly urbanized country, healthy wage girls, more disposable income,
Speaker 1: not only in a small fraction of households, but very
Speaker 1: broad based, very inclusive girls, of course, and and I
Speaker 1: think that's fueling a healthy domestic economy. And I think
Speaker 1: that's that's important. Ing himself as an example of the
Speaker 1: Vietnamese affection for America, in a country where lingering hustle
Speaker 1: sentiment from the war is largely confined to museums, a
Speaker 1: son is studying marketing in Indiana, part of a growing
Speaker 1: pattern as Vietnam ranks number seven in the world and
Speaker 1: sending students to the States. The Vietnamese hold a much
Speaker 1: different perspective on China. They talk about a lack of
Speaker 1: trust etched in a thousand years of history with their
Speaker 1: communist neighbor, and almost nine and ten have an unfavorable
Speaker 1: view of China, according to the same Pew survey. But
Speaker 1: for all the positive signs, businesses aren't getting too excited
Speaker 1: about the opportunities that might flow from the trade war.
Speaker 1: For one thing, companies know they can't cut out the
Speaker 1: second biggest market in the world. In fact, Ang says
Speaker 1: Shea still needs to source some materials, including steel, from
Speaker 1: China in order to continue producing according to customer preferences.
Speaker 1: Corruption also remains an issue. Infrastructure still lags in some ways,
Speaker 1: and paperwork can bog down newcomers. Moreover, Vietnam is vulnerable
Speaker 1: to international criticism for imprisoning dissidents and bloggers who challenge
Speaker 1: the government's one party socialist rule. And of course, if
Speaker 1: the US China trade war worsens or goes global, that's
Speaker 1: going to be bad for everyone, especially trade heavy economies
Speaker 1: like Vietnam. But A thinks Shena in his country will
Speaker 1: rise to the challenge. We see many opportunities in both
Speaker 1: domestic and international market. The trade war is bringing more business,
Speaker 1: for sure, while there are some potential areas in the
Speaker 1: domestic market that we haven't tapped yet. In talks about
Speaker 1: creating a so called smart fact Jory with more robots
Speaker 1: and advanced machines. He aims to double sales in the
Speaker 1: next five years. For now, the trade war is helping
Speaker 1: and keep things plans on truck for Bloomberg News. This
Speaker 1: is Michelle jam Risco. So that was Michelle jam Risco.
Speaker 1: I'm very pleased to talk now to Daniel Moss, who
Speaker 1: will be familiar to some of you long time listeners
Speaker 1: to the Benchmark podcast. He used to run the economics
Speaker 1: coverage here at Bloomberg. He has done a lot of
Speaker 1: other things for Bloomberg, but most importantly for our purposes.
Speaker 1: For the last few months, he's been based in Asia
Speaker 1: as the Asian Economy columnist for Bloomberg Opinion. Dan, thanks
Speaker 1: very much for coming back on the podcast. Step great
Speaker 1: to be here. So we were just hearing about this
Speaker 1: quite positive story about Vietnam potentially at least in the
Speaker 1: short term, being a winner from the trade wars. Is
Speaker 1: this something that you see generally when you think about
Speaker 1: the impact on Southeast Asia of the immediate sort of
Speaker 1: US China wrangling over trade, that there are some countries
Speaker 1: that are actually benefiting as well as the losses we see,
Speaker 1: or is it primarily a negative story. When you think
Speaker 1: about the impact of the trade wars on the region,
Speaker 1: it is overall a broadly negative story, with a couple
Speaker 1: of exceptions, and Vietnam is one of them, certainly in
Speaker 1: the short term. I was in Vietnam late last year
Speaker 1: and the place was getting quite a lot of positive
Speaker 1: buzz from foreign businesses who had set up there. Late
Speaker 1: last year, the government lifted restrictions on how much foreigners
Speaker 1: can own of huge swaths of industry. However, and this
Speaker 1: is the key caveat when you're talking about Vietnam, it
Speaker 1: remains a one party communist state, and so called sent
Speaker 1: citive areas they are still off limits to foreign control.
Speaker 1: Vietnam is a big country, but it's not so big.
Speaker 1: It has relatively warm relations with the US and with
Speaker 1: Western Europe that, of course, can all go wrong, though
Speaker 1: its system of government is not dramatically different from China's
Speaker 1: and steph. As you know from your own working experiences.
Speaker 1: When emerging markets let foreign investors have more and more
Speaker 1: of a say in the economic life of their country,
Speaker 1: governments also surrender a certain amount of control. Some systems
Speaker 1: of government and individual states are more comfortable with that
Speaker 1: than others. For now, it's probably a bargain that works
Speaker 1: for Vietnam. How long it works remains to be seen.
Speaker 1: I suspect there's a little bit of crush to this.
Speaker 1: Whether it's a long term player remains to be seeing.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's one thing that certainly we think about
Speaker 1: when we look at what you might call the Asian
Speaker 1: economic model, which was so focused on trade and exporting
Speaker 1: to the rest of the world, we know that that
Speaker 1: sort of the path that China took and that other
Speaker 1: countries before it took, is going to be much harder
Speaker 1: now looking ahead. I mean, the rest of the world's
Speaker 1: a bit more wise to that approach, but it's just
Speaker 1: a much more competitive environment. I mean, not just Vietnam,
Speaker 1: but if you're sort of stepping back and thinking about
Speaker 1: Southeast Asia as a whole and that Asian export economies,
Speaker 1: you know, how well do you think countries are grappling
Speaker 1: with moving away from it or needing to find a
Speaker 1: different kind of economic model. They do need to find
Speaker 1: a different type of economic models. Some of them are
Speaker 1: pinning hopes on their own middle class. But just to
Speaker 1: be clear about this, a move away from exports is
Speaker 1: essentially a move away from the model that got them
Speaker 1: where they are. You know, we're all familiar with the
Speaker 1: success stories of some of these Asian economies. You know,
Speaker 1: tigers was a term very much on vogue in the
Speaker 1: eighties and nineties. Who don't hear that so much anymore.
Speaker 1: They did really, really well out of exports, and part
Speaker 1: of that was an exports supply chain that sneaked through
Speaker 1: China and has recently served China as well as serving
Speaker 1: the US. Now, to attract all the multinationals that were
Speaker 1: part of those supply chains, they needed to make their
Speaker 1: economies more open. They needed to invest more money in education,
Speaker 1: They needed to keep up the momentum move up the
Speaker 1: value chain. Now, if you take away exports and if
Speaker 1: you at least subtract from China's role in that global
Speaker 1: supply chain, the model that got many of these East
Speaker 1: Asian countries where they are, well, you know, got another model.
Speaker 1: I don't know that they necessarily have a convinced seeing
Speaker 1: new one, and I guess one of them, I mean,
Speaker 1: one part of one big part of the model. The
Speaker 1: last few years has just been dependents on China, I mean, selling,
Speaker 1: selling into that China growth story. We think a lot
Speaker 1: about the impact of trade wars and as understandable because
Speaker 1: it's such a it's a change to have this kind
Speaker 1: of protectionist mood affecting relations between the two of the
Speaker 1: biggest economies in the world. But if you're sitting in
Speaker 1: major you're looking at Asian economies all around you, what
Speaker 1: are you worried about most? Are you worried most about
Speaker 1: the trade war? Or are you worried most about the
Speaker 1: slowing of growth in China because that's such a big
Speaker 1: part of this year's story as well. Yeah, when I
Speaker 1: wake up tomorrow morning, I'll be worrying about the trade
Speaker 1: war and the impact of that. But you know, as
Speaker 1: I wake up in the months and perhaps the year
Speaker 1: to come, I'll be worried that economies aren't thinking enough
Speaker 1: about the structural slowed down and the structural change in
Speaker 1: the Chinese economy. This is an economy that Donald Trump, notwithstanding,
Speaker 1: is becoming more and more driven by its own domestic
Speaker 1: consumer market, by technology. China is not going to grow
Speaker 1: at six percent forever. It didn't grow at ten percent forever.
Speaker 1: You know, we need to get used to growth of
Speaker 1: five points something, four points something, three points something. You know,
Speaker 1: the O E c D has done some modeling. Capital Economics,
Speaker 1: among other firms, have done some modeling. As China's economy
Speaker 1: continues to mature, you know it's going to look actually
Speaker 1: a lot like the US and to a degree Western
Speaker 1: Europe in terms of its rates of growth. Now, for
Speaker 1: all the people's staff that we've heard say, well, the
Speaker 1: biggest thing in my lifetime has been the super fabulous
Speaker 1: rise of China. That's great, that's true. But how much
Speaker 1: consideration is given to a China, know which looks normal?
Speaker 1: That is the really long term fundamental challenge. Being close
Speaker 1: to China was once an an unalloyed good. How much
Speaker 1: longer will that be true? Again? Got a new model.
Speaker 1: It makes me think. And it's interesting because you and
Speaker 1: I both have a sort of longer term perspect on this,
Speaker 1: although you had a much deeper understanding of the region.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think, you know, you've just moved back
Speaker 1: to Asia after many years away, and I think the
Speaker 1: last time you were there. You should remind us the
Speaker 1: last time you were there was in the late nineties.
Speaker 1: That was when I was making flying visits to Asia
Speaker 1: during the Asia Financial crisis, when I was working at
Speaker 1: the U. S. Treasury, working for Larry Summers. So, of
Speaker 1: course I got a rather crazed picture of these countries
Speaker 1: when they were going through this absolute worst moment of crisis.
Speaker 1: You were sitting there able to look at it a
Speaker 1: bit more calmly. But what struck you most you've been
Speaker 1: back for a few months now, how is that long
Speaker 1: term story of China influen punts and the development of
Speaker 1: the region played out relative to what you might have
Speaker 1: thought when you left? So I moved to Singapore three
Speaker 1: months ago. The last time I lived in Southeast Asia,
Speaker 1: I was the bureau chief of Bloomberg in Malaysia from
Speaker 1: so definitely that was a period of economic and political
Speaker 1: upheaval in the region. Having been away for two decades,
Speaker 1: I expected Steph that when I returned, China's footprint would
Speaker 1: be everywhere. You know, writ large, writ small, rip medium,
Speaker 1: you name it. The thing that surprised me most as
Speaker 1: I talk to people at central banks here and read
Speaker 1: more and more about monetary policy in Asia, the more
Speaker 1: it's apparent to me this is still largely about the
Speaker 1: Federal Reserve. This is still a dollar zone. Is China's
Speaker 1: footprint in the region expanding in other economic ways? For
Speaker 1: Shure is China funding a lot of infrastructure in this
Speaker 1: region for Shure, is the Belton Road Initiative having an
Speaker 1: impact for Shure. But when it comes to the monetary realm,
Speaker 1: this is still a dollar game. And whenever there's a
Speaker 1: Federal Open Market Committee meeting for two days, there's just
Speaker 1: this constant blitz. It's like I was back in d
Speaker 1: C at a fed lock up. People's Bank of China
Speaker 1: is barely mentioned. For me. That was a surprise. Now
Speaker 1: culturally and politically things have advanced significantly. I'm talking to
Speaker 1: you right now from Jakarta, the capital of Indonesia, which,
Speaker 1: as you know, was the epicenter in Southeast Asia of
Speaker 1: the financial crisis two decades ago. It ultimately became a
Speaker 1: political crisis and in some ways a sectarian crisis. Indonesia
Speaker 1: is in full bloom as a democracy as it prepares
Speaker 1: to vote this month. Country only been voting directly for
Speaker 1: presidents since two thousand and four. And democracy is a
Speaker 1: great thing. We all support that, but it does make
Speaker 1: it harder sometimes to get a handle on the debate,
Speaker 1: and it can also uncork some sentiments that authoritarian rules
Speaker 1: had papered over. No I think that's I mean It's
Speaker 1: fascinating and not necessarily what we hear all the time
Speaker 1: when we think about the rise of China and and
Speaker 1: how how dominant it's become. Some things have moved very quickly,
Speaker 1: but some of these long term aspects, certainly about the
Speaker 1: role of the dollar, we know it could take a
Speaker 1: lot longer. I seem to remember. I think the the
Speaker 1: UK was surpassed by the US in terms of the
Speaker 1: size of its economy in the late in the eighties nineties.
Speaker 1: It took another sixty years before the pound was really
Speaker 1: displaced by the dollar as the global currency. So maybe
Speaker 1: we shouldn't be surprised, but it's it's interesting to hear
Speaker 1: that you've come all that way, Dan, moving from the US,
Speaker 1: only to discover that it really is still all about
Speaker 1: at the FED. I appreciate that we got that insight.
Speaker 1: Thanks very much for joining us. I know we're going
Speaker 1: to have you back on the show very soon. Thanks Steph.
Speaker 1: Looking forward to it. So I'm joined now by someone
Speaker 1: who's also about to move from the US, Brendan Murray,
Speaker 1: who until recently was managing editor for the US economic
Speaker 1: coverage here at Bloomberg, but is now Our world trades
Speaker 1: are we've decided trade it become so important to Bloomberg
Speaker 1: we didn't just have to report it, but we needed
Speaker 1: to install an autocrat to keep the show on the road. So, Brendan, welcome.
Speaker 1: I wanted to chat to you partly to tell everyone
Speaker 1: that we have a global trades are now, but also
Speaker 1: because a news story out of Geneva caught my eye,
Speaker 1: which I don't say very often. It's the news that
Speaker 1: the World Trade Organization, based in Geneva has just published
Speaker 1: its first ruling on national security. Now, Brendan, this was
Speaker 1: about a trade dispute between Russia and Ukraine, which might
Speaker 1: be quite important for those two countries, but it's not
Speaker 1: necessarily going to be something the world has to pay
Speaker 1: attention to. Why did we make a bit of a
Speaker 1: fuss out of it here in Bloomberg. Well, this ruling
Speaker 1: is going to have bigger implications for the Trump administration's
Speaker 1: trade agenda around the world. Essentially, Trump is saying that
Speaker 1: the steel and aluminum tariffs that it is applying on
Speaker 1: a number of countries around the world are justified for
Speaker 1: national security reasons, so that this ruling out of the
Speaker 1: w t O will invite some disputes from from around
Speaker 1: the world, from countries like Canada, China, and EU. So
Speaker 1: he's always said so. The administration has always said w
Speaker 1: T shouldn't be getting itself involved in this, and in fact,
Speaker 1: even the w D has sort of said in the
Speaker 1: past they didn't particularly want to get involved in national
Speaker 1: security things. But if you look at the ruling itself,
Speaker 1: the w two seems to have said, yeah, Russia's claim
Speaker 1: of national security concerns was right in this case. I
Speaker 1: think they were. They were They've been putting restrictions on
Speaker 1: the goods going from Ukraine to other countries but through Russia,
Speaker 1: and because of the sort of conditions relations between Russia
Speaker 1: and Ukraine. Russia had said there's national security concerns, why
Speaker 1: I was doing this, And the w t O has
Speaker 1: agreed with that. So so why should the administration really
Speaker 1: worry about it? If it's going to be on on
Speaker 1: the Donald Trump's side, well, they should worry about it
Speaker 1: because they're probably on shakier ground calling the steel and
Speaker 1: aluminum tariffs justified for national security reasons. In the Russia
Speaker 1: and Ukraine case, there was an armed conflict going on
Speaker 1: when Russia installed these these restricted trade measures. The US
Speaker 1: UH doesn't have the same argument that there's an actual
Speaker 1: military conflict going on, that we need these tariffs for
Speaker 1: national security reasons. So the definition of of of trying
Speaker 1: to prove that these are needed for national security that
Speaker 1: the administration is probably hoping if there's a looser a
Speaker 1: looser definition of basically this could open up the floodgates
Speaker 1: to for other countries to say, oh, well, we have
Speaker 1: we have national security interests in in in maintaining our
Speaker 1: steel industries. And so you can you can see the
Speaker 1: sort of domino effect that that this could have. What
Speaker 1: about what's the timing on that? Do we think if
Speaker 1: I know that sometimes things take an awful long time
Speaker 1: to go through the w t O, but are we
Speaker 1: expecting a ruling on any of these things? Nothing? Nothing
Speaker 1: in the near term. That's that That's one of the
Speaker 1: potential outcomes of this particular case is that this could
Speaker 1: be appealed and and it could be tied up for years. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, that's probably what Donald Trump would be would
Speaker 1: be hoping happens if it does actually come to the
Speaker 1: ruling for national security against the US. Now, I feel
Speaker 1: kind of sorry for the World Weld Trade Organization. They're
Speaker 1: sort of damned if they do, and damned if they don't.
Speaker 1: If they don't get involved in these kind of issues,
Speaker 1: then you can imagine, as you say, more and more
Speaker 1: countries going around them and saying everything is a national
Speaker 1: security concern, and then the w t A becomes relevant.
Speaker 1: But if it's relevant and then hated enough for President
Speaker 1: Trump to take the US out, that's a pretty bad
Speaker 1: outcome as well. Who knew that world trade negotiations could
Speaker 1: be so exciting. You must be very excited to take
Speaker 1: on your new role. Congratulations Brendan, and thank you. Thanks
Speaker 1: thanks for listening to Stephanomics. Please join us next week
Speaker 1: for another episode about the forces shaping the global economy.
Speaker 1: In the meantime, you can find us on the Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Terminal website or app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: We'd love it if you took the time to rate
Speaker 1: and review the show so it could reach more listeners.
Speaker 1: For more news and analysis from Bloomberg Economics, follow as
Speaker 1: Economics on Twitter. You can also follow me on at
Speaker 1: my Stephanomics. The story in this episode was reported and
Speaker 1: written by Michelle jam Risco, and Win You Win was
Speaker 1: produced by Magnus Hendrickson. And edited by Nurserene Syria and
Speaker 1: Scott Lamman, who is also the executive producer of Stephanomics
Speaker 1: Special Thanks to Dan Moss, Brendan Murray and Hung Trom.
Speaker 1: Francesca Levy is the head of bloom By podcast