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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Stephanomics, the podcast that brings the

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Speaker 1: global economy to you. Trade wars are good and easy

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Speaker 1: to win. That was President Trump's famous tweet just over

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Speaker 1: a year ago when he announced tariff's on steel and

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Speaker 1: aluminum from China and other countries. There have been plenty

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Speaker 1: of twists and turns in the trade wars since then,

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Speaker 1: But who's winning well, Trade lawyers definitely, and yes, trade

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Speaker 1: reporters are. World Trade team here at Bloomberg has doubled

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Speaker 1: in the past year. But when it comes to countries,

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Speaker 1: economic theory says no one really wins a trade war.

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Speaker 1: And if you look at the way the trade battles

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Speaker 1: have hurt exports in China and raised costs and uncertainty

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Speaker 1: for US businesses, you'd be inclined to agree, but we

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Speaker 1: might be looking in the wrong place. In a minute,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to talk to Bloomberg's Asian Economy columnist Dan

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Speaker 1: Moss about the impact of trade wars and tougher global

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Speaker 1: competition on Asia. But first, our Southeast Asian Economies reporter

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Speaker 1: Michelle jam Riscoe has been to one country that does

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Speaker 1: seem to be winning Donald Trump's trade war. This is Vietnam,

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Speaker 1: where motorbikes raced through the streets of the capital Hanoi.

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Speaker 1: Forty years after the war with America, the Vietnamese have

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Speaker 1: the most favorable opinion of the US out of any

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Speaker 1: foreign populace, according to the Pew Research Center, and Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump may just have given them another reason to like

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Speaker 1: America in the form of his trade war with China.

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Speaker 1: That's because the tariff battle is giving a boost to

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Speaker 1: Vietnam's economy, which was already one of the world's fastest

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Speaker 1: growing thanks in part to foreign business is looking for

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Speaker 1: cheaper factories my college when you in and I visited Shenwa,

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Speaker 1: a furniture maker in Hanoi, to get a firsthand look

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Speaker 1: at how Vietnamese business is reaping the benefits. Shenwa started

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Speaker 1: as a bicycle company in and in the decades since

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Speaker 1: has evolved into a big brand within Vietnam for home

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Speaker 1: office and even the seats in parliament. But it also

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Speaker 1: has a solid portfolio of long time international partners like

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Speaker 1: Aikia and Toyota. A family that's growing in part thanks

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Speaker 1: to those tariffs. Here's CEO Laid Wei Ang. We expect

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Speaker 1: new orders to increase a lot due to the trade war,

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Speaker 1: but it's hard to quantify it. Right now, there are

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Speaker 1: more companies getting in touch with us to switch from

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Speaker 1: China to our products, but in order to turn them

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Speaker 1: into real contracts, we still have a lot to do

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Speaker 1: and many things to change. It's quite difficult to compete

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Speaker 1: with China in terms of quantity and cost. Here on

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Speaker 1: Ang's factory floor is where that struggle to compete with

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Speaker 1: China is playing out, and already with some success. You

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Speaker 1: can tell Ang really wants to prioritize not just quantity

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Speaker 1: but quality. He aims to compete with Japanese craftsmanship very much.

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Speaker 1: In each of these buildings, you can smell the burnt

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Speaker 1: metal and creative sparks flying work. Here's still gently at

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Speaker 1: each of their stations in different zones, organized as Mr

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Speaker 1: Ain said in a system that they took from Ng.

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Speaker 1: An average size, boyish looking man with a big smile

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Speaker 1: proudly escorts us around his village of factory buildings about

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Speaker 1: an hour outside downtown Hannoi. We're just the latest onlookers.

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Speaker 1: In the past three months, he's been visited by about

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Speaker 1: ten potential new clients who are considering moving orders from

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Speaker 1: China to Shenhwa. They've come from all over both the

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Speaker 1: U s and China, as well as South Korea and Japan,

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Speaker 1: and also from much further away like Romania. He's almost

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Speaker 1: sure the fresh business will help him smash a growth target.

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Speaker 1: For his point is driven home during our tour as

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Speaker 1: a South Korean businessman walks by in a hard hat

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Speaker 1: browsing products he'd like to sell to the U. S

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Speaker 1: Ang pauses his tutorial about how NA has boosted productivity

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Speaker 1: by shaving seconds off the process of bending the initial medal.

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Speaker 1: He points out the latest visitor strolling the floors excitedly

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Speaker 1: interjecting in English, a prongfolio, and I thought to me

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Speaker 1: right now, Ang seems most focused on a new Canadian client,

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Speaker 1: manufacturer distributor Conglam, whose executives are scrapping their Chinese sourcing

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Speaker 1: and looking instead to order from NA, including cabinets they

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Speaker 1: ship to US customers. Ang says this is exactly the

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Speaker 1: type of order that his business has been working toward,

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Speaker 1: as they buy new machinery and become more efficient on

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Speaker 1: the factory floor. The most difficult things now is increasing

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Speaker 1: quality and ensuring good quality of our products while trying

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Speaker 1: to reduce costs to meet clients requirements and to be

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Speaker 1: more competitive. The gains in productivity have allowed aim to

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Speaker 1: raise salaries about eight percent each year for the past

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Speaker 1: three years, he says, more than double the rate of inflation.

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Speaker 1: One of his workers, forty six year old Havantan, has

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Speaker 1: been at China for twenty two years, and both that

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Speaker 1: the recent bumping business allowed him to buy a new

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Speaker 1: motorbike for his family last year. My wife is much

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Speaker 1: happier since I got higher income from the company, so

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Speaker 1: we have a better life now. I also have better

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Speaker 1: health as the working environment here has become better than

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Speaker 1: it was previously. Ain showed off the cabinets and test

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Speaker 1: phase that China was perfecting to close the deal with

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Speaker 1: Conglong later, he offers up a more concrete example of

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Speaker 1: where his company has already gained from the trade war.

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Speaker 1: Akia has done business with Shenois for more than seventeen years.

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Speaker 1: Last year, the Swedish furniture giant gave Shenwis some more

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Speaker 1: business by switching from a Chinese vendor that could hike

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Speaker 1: prices due to tariffs. Achia began buying these twenty cent

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Speaker 1: metal parts from Shenois, which Ain pulled off a newer machine.

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Speaker 1: On our tour, I met Sebastian Eckert, the World Bank's

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Speaker 1: lead Vietnam economist, in an eighth floor meeting room that

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Speaker 1: overlooks an especially buzzy intersection with tourists and teens snapping

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Speaker 1: photos in front of Hannoi's historic opera house across the way.

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Speaker 1: Eckert put things into perspective. Vietnam, of course, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: even before the recent tensions, in many ways, has picked

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Speaker 1: up activities where China basically move. We've moved on ind right,

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Speaker 1: So a lot of the the FDI that VS actually

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Speaker 1: is is relocation from China, and I think this the

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Speaker 1: recent chansions they probably accelerate that for some instant, that's

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Speaker 1: a keyword. I've been hearing a lot accelerate. The penalties

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Speaker 1: targeted at China and the broader demand slow down there

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Speaker 1: have given an extra nudge in Vietnam's favor. Not only

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Speaker 1: that the government is loosing its grip on commerce. At

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Speaker 1: the start of Sunwa, then a state owned company was

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Speaker 1: fully privatized, and now an owns a stake in the firm.

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Speaker 1: Eckert sees Vietnamese agencies cleaning up regulations brainstorming on tough

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Speaker 1: reforms like intellectual property rights and adding more free trade

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Speaker 1: agreements to their impressive lineup. It's all earned them better

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Speaker 1: spots and international rankings like the World Banks Ease of

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Speaker 1: Doing Business Index and the World Economic Forums Competitiveness Index.

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Speaker 1: That's really come back. And I think that's very healthy,

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Speaker 1: and it's something that is structural, that reflects a rising

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Speaker 1: middle class, increasingly urbanized country, healthy wage girls, more disposable income,

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Speaker 1: not only in a small fraction of households, but very

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Speaker 1: broad based, very inclusive girls, of course, and and I

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Speaker 1: think that's fueling a healthy domestic economy. And I think

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Speaker 1: that's that's important. Ing himself as an example of the

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Speaker 1: Vietnamese affection for America, in a country where lingering hustle

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Speaker 1: sentiment from the war is largely confined to museums, a

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Speaker 1: son is studying marketing in Indiana, part of a growing

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Speaker 1: pattern as Vietnam ranks number seven in the world and

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Speaker 1: sending students to the States. The Vietnamese hold a much

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Speaker 1: different perspective on China. They talk about a lack of

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Speaker 1: trust etched in a thousand years of history with their

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Speaker 1: communist neighbor, and almost nine and ten have an unfavorable

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Speaker 1: view of China, according to the same Pew survey. But

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Speaker 1: for all the positive signs, businesses aren't getting too excited

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Speaker 1: about the opportunities that might flow from the trade war.

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Speaker 1: For one thing, companies know they can't cut out the

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Speaker 1: second biggest market in the world. In fact, Ang says

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Speaker 1: Shea still needs to source some materials, including steel, from

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Speaker 1: China in order to continue producing according to customer preferences.

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Speaker 1: Corruption also remains an issue. Infrastructure still lags in some ways,

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Speaker 1: and paperwork can bog down newcomers. Moreover, Vietnam is vulnerable

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Speaker 1: to international criticism for imprisoning dissidents and bloggers who challenge

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Speaker 1: the government's one party socialist rule. And of course, if

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Speaker 1: the US China trade war worsens or goes global, that's

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Speaker 1: going to be bad for everyone, especially trade heavy economies

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Speaker 1: like Vietnam. But A thinks Shena in his country will

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Speaker 1: rise to the challenge. We see many opportunities in both

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Speaker 1: domestic and international market. The trade war is bringing more business,

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Speaker 1: for sure, while there are some potential areas in the

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Speaker 1: domestic market that we haven't tapped yet. In talks about

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Speaker 1: creating a so called smart fact Jory with more robots

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Speaker 1: and advanced machines. He aims to double sales in the

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Speaker 1: next five years. For now, the trade war is helping

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Speaker 1: and keep things plans on truck for Bloomberg News. This

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Speaker 1: is Michelle jam Risco. So that was Michelle jam Risco.

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Speaker 1: I'm very pleased to talk now to Daniel Moss, who

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Speaker 1: will be familiar to some of you long time listeners

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Speaker 1: to the Benchmark podcast. He used to run the economics

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Speaker 1: coverage here at Bloomberg. He has done a lot of

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Speaker 1: other things for Bloomberg, but most importantly for our purposes.

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Speaker 1: For the last few months, he's been based in Asia

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Speaker 1: as the Asian Economy columnist for Bloomberg Opinion. Dan, thanks

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Speaker 1: very much for coming back on the podcast. Step great

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Speaker 1: to be here. So we were just hearing about this

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Speaker 1: quite positive story about Vietnam potentially at least in the

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Speaker 1: short term, being a winner from the trade wars. Is

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Speaker 1: this something that you see generally when you think about

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Speaker 1: the impact on Southeast Asia of the immediate sort of

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Speaker 1: US China wrangling over trade, that there are some countries

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Speaker 1: that are actually benefiting as well as the losses we see,

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Speaker 1: or is it primarily a negative story. When you think

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Speaker 1: about the impact of the trade wars on the region,

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Speaker 1: it is overall a broadly negative story, with a couple

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Speaker 1: of exceptions, and Vietnam is one of them, certainly in

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Speaker 1: the short term. I was in Vietnam late last year

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Speaker 1: and the place was getting quite a lot of positive

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Speaker 1: buzz from foreign businesses who had set up there. Late

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Speaker 1: last year, the government lifted restrictions on how much foreigners

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Speaker 1: can own of huge swaths of industry. However, and this

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Speaker 1: is the key caveat when you're talking about Vietnam, it

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Speaker 1: remains a one party communist state, and so called sent

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Speaker 1: citive areas they are still off limits to foreign control.

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Speaker 1: Vietnam is a big country, but it's not so big.

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Speaker 1: It has relatively warm relations with the US and with

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Speaker 1: Western Europe that, of course, can all go wrong, though

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Speaker 1: its system of government is not dramatically different from China's

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Speaker 1: and steph. As you know from your own working experiences.

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Speaker 1: When emerging markets let foreign investors have more and more

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Speaker 1: of a say in the economic life of their country,

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Speaker 1: governments also surrender a certain amount of control. Some systems

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Speaker 1: of government and individual states are more comfortable with that

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Speaker 1: than others. For now, it's probably a bargain that works

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Speaker 1: for Vietnam. How long it works remains to be seen.

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Speaker 1: I suspect there's a little bit of crush to this.

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Speaker 1: Whether it's a long term player remains to be seeing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's one thing that certainly we think about

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Speaker 1: when we look at what you might call the Asian

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Speaker 1: economic model, which was so focused on trade and exporting

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Speaker 1: to the rest of the world, we know that that

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Speaker 1: sort of the path that China took and that other

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Speaker 1: countries before it took, is going to be much harder

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Speaker 1: now looking ahead. I mean, the rest of the world's

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Speaker 1: a bit more wise to that approach, but it's just

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Speaker 1: a much more competitive environment. I mean, not just Vietnam,

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Speaker 1: but if you're sort of stepping back and thinking about

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Speaker 1: Southeast Asia as a whole and that Asian export economies,

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Speaker 1: you know, how well do you think countries are grappling

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Speaker 1: with moving away from it or needing to find a

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Speaker 1: different kind of economic model. They do need to find

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Speaker 1: a different type of economic models. Some of them are

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Speaker 1: pinning hopes on their own middle class. But just to

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Speaker 1: be clear about this, a move away from exports is

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Speaker 1: essentially a move away from the model that got them

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Speaker 1: where they are. You know, we're all familiar with the

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Speaker 1: success stories of some of these Asian economies. You know,

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Speaker 1: tigers was a term very much on vogue in the

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Speaker 1: eighties and nineties. Who don't hear that so much anymore.

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Speaker 1: They did really, really well out of exports, and part

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Speaker 1: of that was an exports supply chain that sneaked through

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Speaker 1: China and has recently served China as well as serving

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Speaker 1: the US. Now, to attract all the multinationals that were

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Speaker 1: part of those supply chains, they needed to make their

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Speaker 1: economies more open. They needed to invest more money in education,

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Speaker 1: They needed to keep up the momentum move up the

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Speaker 1: value chain. Now, if you take away exports and if

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Speaker 1: you at least subtract from China's role in that global

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Speaker 1: supply chain, the model that got many of these East

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Speaker 1: Asian countries where they are, well, you know, got another model.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that they necessarily have a convinced seeing

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Speaker 1: new one, and I guess one of them, I mean,

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Speaker 1: one part of one big part of the model. The

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Speaker 1: selling into that China growth story. We think a lot

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Speaker 1: about the impact of trade wars and as understandable because

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Speaker 1: it's such a it's a change to have this kind

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Speaker 1: of protectionist mood affecting relations between the two of the

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Speaker 1: biggest economies in the world. But if you're sitting in

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Speaker 1: major you're looking at Asian economies all around you, what

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Speaker 1: are you worried about most? Are you worried most about

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Speaker 1: the trade war? Or are you worried most about the

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Speaker 1: slowing of growth in China because that's such a big

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Speaker 1: part of this year's story as well. Yeah, when I

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Speaker 1: wake up tomorrow morning, I'll be worrying about the trade

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Speaker 1: war and the impact of that. But you know, as

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Speaker 1: I wake up in the months and perhaps the year

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Speaker 1: to come, I'll be worried that economies aren't thinking enough

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Speaker 1: about the structural slowed down and the structural change in

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Speaker 1: the Chinese economy. This is an economy that Donald Trump, notwithstanding,

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Speaker 1: is becoming more and more driven by its own domestic

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Speaker 1: consumer market, by technology. China is not going to grow

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Speaker 1: at six percent forever. It didn't grow at ten percent forever.

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Speaker 1: You know, we need to get used to growth of

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Speaker 1: five points something, four points something, three points something. You know,

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Speaker 1: the O E c D has done some modeling. Capital Economics,

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Speaker 1: among other firms, have done some modeling. As China's economy

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Speaker 1: continues to mature, you know it's going to look actually

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Speaker 1: a lot like the US and to a degree Western

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Speaker 1: Europe in terms of its rates of growth. Now, for

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Speaker 1: all the people's staff that we've heard say, well, the

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Speaker 1: biggest thing in my lifetime has been the super fabulous

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Speaker 1: rise of China. That's great, that's true. But how much

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Speaker 1: consideration is given to a China, know which looks normal?

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Speaker 1: That is the really long term fundamental challenge. Being close

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Speaker 1: to China was once an an unalloyed good. How much

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Speaker 1: longer will that be true? Again? Got a new model.

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Speaker 1: It makes me think. And it's interesting because you and

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Speaker 1: I both have a sort of longer term perspect on this,

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Speaker 1: although you had a much deeper understanding of the region.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think, you know, you've just moved back

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Speaker 1: That was when I was making flying visits to Asia

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Speaker 1: during the Asia Financial crisis, when I was working at

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Speaker 1: the U. S. Treasury, working for Larry Summers. So, of

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Speaker 1: course I got a rather crazed picture of these countries

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Speaker 1: when they were going through this absolute worst moment of crisis.

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Speaker 1: You were sitting there able to look at it a

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Speaker 1: bit more calmly. But what struck you most you've been

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Speaker 1: back for a few months now, how is that long

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Speaker 1: term story of China influen punts and the development of

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Speaker 1: the region played out relative to what you might have

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Speaker 1: thought when you left? So I moved to Singapore three

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Speaker 1: months ago. The last time I lived in Southeast Asia,

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Speaker 1: I was the bureau chief of Bloomberg in Malaysia from

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Speaker 1: so definitely that was a period of economic and political

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Speaker 1: upheaval in the region. Having been away for two decades,

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Speaker 1: I expected Steph that when I returned, China's footprint would

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Speaker 1: be everywhere. You know, writ large, writ small, rip medium,

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Speaker 1: you name it. The thing that surprised me most as

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Speaker 1: I talk to people at central banks here and read

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Speaker 1: more and more about monetary policy in Asia, the more

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Speaker 1: it's apparent to me this is still largely about the

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Speaker 1: Federal Reserve. This is still a dollar zone. Is China's

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Speaker 1: footprint in the region expanding in other economic ways? For

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Speaker 1: Shure is China funding a lot of infrastructure in this

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Speaker 1: region for Shure, is the Belton Road Initiative having an

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Speaker 1: impact for Shure. But when it comes to the monetary realm,

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Speaker 1: this is still a dollar game. And whenever there's a

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Speaker 1: Federal Open Market Committee meeting for two days, there's just

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Speaker 1: this constant blitz. It's like I was back in d

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Speaker 1: C at a fed lock up. People's Bank of China

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Speaker 1: is barely mentioned. For me. That was a surprise. Now

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Speaker 1: culturally and politically things have advanced significantly. I'm talking to

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Speaker 1: you right now from Jakarta, the capital of Indonesia, which,

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Speaker 1: as you know, was the epicenter in Southeast Asia of

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Speaker 1: the financial crisis two decades ago. It ultimately became a

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Speaker 1: political crisis and in some ways a sectarian crisis. Indonesia

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Speaker 1: is in full bloom as a democracy as it prepares

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Speaker 1: to vote this month. Country only been voting directly for

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Speaker 1: presidents since two thousand and four. And democracy is a

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Speaker 1: great thing. We all support that, but it does make

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Speaker 1: it harder sometimes to get a handle on the debate,

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Speaker 1: and it can also uncork some sentiments that authoritarian rules

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Speaker 1: had papered over. No I think that's I mean It's

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Speaker 1: fascinating and not necessarily what we hear all the time

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Speaker 1: when we think about the rise of China and and

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Speaker 1: how how dominant it's become. Some things have moved very quickly,

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Speaker 1: but some of these long term aspects, certainly about the

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Speaker 1: role of the dollar, we know it could take a

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Speaker 1: lot longer. I seem to remember. I think the the

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Speaker 1: UK was surpassed by the US in terms of the

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Speaker 1: size of its economy in the late in the eighties nineties.

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Speaker 1: It took another sixty years before the pound was really

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Speaker 1: displaced by the dollar as the global currency. So maybe

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Speaker 1: we shouldn't be surprised, but it's it's interesting to hear

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Speaker 1: that you've come all that way, Dan, moving from the US,

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Speaker 1: only to discover that it really is still all about

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Speaker 1: at the FED. I appreciate that we got that insight.

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Speaker 1: Thanks very much for joining us. I know we're going

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Speaker 1: to have you back on the show very soon. Thanks Steph.

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Speaker 1: Looking forward to it. So I'm joined now by someone

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Speaker 1: who's also about to move from the US, Brendan Murray,

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Speaker 1: who until recently was managing editor for the US economic

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Speaker 1: coverage here at Bloomberg, but is now Our world trades

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Speaker 1: are we've decided trade it become so important to Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: we didn't just have to report it, but we needed

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Speaker 1: to install an autocrat to keep the show on the road. So, Brendan, welcome.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to chat to you partly to tell everyone

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Speaker 1: that we have a global trades are now, but also

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Speaker 1: because a news story out of Geneva caught my eye,

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Speaker 1: which I don't say very often. It's the news that

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Speaker 1: the World Trade Organization, based in Geneva has just published

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Speaker 1: its first ruling on national security. Now, Brendan, this was

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Speaker 1: about a trade dispute between Russia and Ukraine, which might

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Speaker 1: be quite important for those two countries, but it's not

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Speaker 1: necessarily going to be something the world has to pay

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Speaker 1: attention to. Why did we make a bit of a

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Speaker 1: fuss out of it here in Bloomberg. Well, this ruling

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Speaker 1: is going to have bigger implications for the Trump administration's

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Speaker 1: trade agenda around the world. Essentially, Trump is saying that

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Speaker 1: the steel and aluminum tariffs that it is applying on

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Speaker 1: a number of countries around the world are justified for

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Speaker 1: national security reasons, so that this ruling out of the

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Speaker 1: w t O will invite some disputes from from around

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Speaker 1: the world, from countries like Canada, China, and EU. So

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Speaker 1: he's always said so. The administration has always said w

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Speaker 1: T shouldn't be getting itself involved in this, and in fact,

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Speaker 1: even the w D has sort of said in the

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Speaker 1: past they didn't particularly want to get involved in national

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Speaker 1: security things. But if you look at the ruling itself,

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Speaker 1: the w two seems to have said, yeah, Russia's claim

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Speaker 1: of national security concerns was right in this case. I

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Speaker 1: think they were. They were They've been putting restrictions on

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Speaker 1: the goods going from Ukraine to other countries but through Russia,

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Speaker 1: and because of the sort of conditions relations between Russia

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Speaker 1: and Ukraine. Russia had said there's national security concerns, why

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Speaker 1: I was doing this, And the w t O has

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Speaker 1: agreed with that. So so why should the administration really

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Speaker 1: worry about it? If it's going to be on on

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Speaker 1: the Donald Trump's side, well, they should worry about it

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Speaker 1: because they're probably on shakier ground calling the steel and

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Speaker 1: aluminum tariffs justified for national security reasons. In the Russia

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Speaker 1: and Ukraine case, there was an armed conflict going on

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Speaker 1: when Russia installed these these restricted trade measures. The US

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Speaker 1: UH doesn't have the same argument that there's an actual

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Speaker 1: military conflict going on, that we need these tariffs for

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Speaker 1: national security reasons. So the definition of of of trying

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Speaker 1: to prove that these are needed for national security that

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Speaker 1: the administration is probably hoping if there's a looser a

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Speaker 1: looser definition of basically this could open up the floodgates

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Speaker 1: to for other countries to say, oh, well, we have

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Speaker 1: we have national security interests in in in maintaining our

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Speaker 1: steel industries. And so you can you can see the

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Speaker 1: sort of domino effect that that this could have. What

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Speaker 1: about what's the timing on that? Do we think if

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Speaker 1: I know that sometimes things take an awful long time

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Speaker 1: to go through the w t O, but are we

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Speaker 1: expecting a ruling on any of these things? Nothing? Nothing

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Speaker 1: in the near term. That's that That's one of the

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Speaker 1: potential outcomes of this particular case is that this could

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Speaker 1: be appealed and and it could be tied up for years. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, that's probably what Donald Trump would be would

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Speaker 1: be hoping happens if it does actually come to the

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Speaker 1: ruling for national security against the US. Now, I feel

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Speaker 1: kind of sorry for the World Weld Trade Organization. They're

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Speaker 1: sort of damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

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Speaker 1: If they don't get involved in these kind of issues,

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Speaker 1: then you can imagine, as you say, more and more

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Speaker 1: countries going around them and saying everything is a national

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Speaker 1: security concern, and then the w t A becomes relevant.

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Speaker 1: But if it's relevant and then hated enough for President

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Speaker 1: Trump to take the US out, that's a pretty bad

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Speaker 1: outcome as well. Who knew that world trade negotiations could

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Speaker 1: be so exciting. You must be very excited to take

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Speaker 1: on your new role. Congratulations Brendan, and thank you. Thanks

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Speaker 1: thanks for listening to Stephanomics. Please join us next week

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Speaker 1: for another episode about the forces shaping the global economy.

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Speaker 1: In the meantime, you can find us on the Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: Terminal website or app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 1: We'd love it if you took the time to rate

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Speaker 1: and review the show so it could reach more listeners.

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Speaker 1: For more news and analysis from Bloomberg Economics, follow as

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Speaker 1: Economics on Twitter. You can also follow me on at

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Speaker 1: my Stephanomics. The story in this episode was reported and

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00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 1: written by Michelle jam Risco, and Win You Win was

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00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 1: produced by Magnus Hendrickson. And edited by Nurserene Syria and

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00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 1: Scott Lamman, who is also the executive producer of Stephanomics

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00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 1: Special Thanks to Dan Moss, Brendan Murray and Hung Trom.

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00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,360
Speaker 1: Francesca Levy is the head of bloom By podcast