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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I don't want to keep you all day,

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Speaker 1: and we have so much to talk about, so let's

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Speaker 1: get started. Should I call you ag Holder? Attorney General Holder,

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Speaker 1: Your highness, your highness?

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Speaker 2: You? Hey? You? Eric is fun? Eric is fine? How

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Speaker 2: about that?

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Speaker 1: Hi? Everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question.

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Speaker 1: You probably know Eric Holder is President Obama's Attorney General.

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Speaker 1: But the question I have is how is he feeling

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Speaker 1: watching the actions of the Trump administration unfold, especially given

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Speaker 1: the fact he spent almost his entire career at the

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Speaker 1: Department of Justice. There was no shortage of things to discuss.

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Speaker 1: The dismantling of the DOJ, the LA standoff between Gavin

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Speaker 1: Newsom and Donald Trump, immigration, voting rights, the First Amendment,

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Speaker 1: Barack Obama, the role of the media, the role of

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Speaker 1: the public, and protecting democracy. We even waxed poetic about

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Speaker 1: Eddie Haskell. Yeah, that's right and Lumpy. Hey. I warned

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Speaker 1: you there was a lot to talk about. Here's my

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Speaker 1: conversation with former Attorney General Eric Holder. Eric Holder, It's

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Speaker 1: a real privilege to be able to talk to you

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Speaker 1: at this very important moment in our nation's history. I

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Speaker 1: guess the question is where do we begin. We've seen

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Speaker 1: so many things happen in recent months. I'm just curious

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Speaker 1: on a personal level, how you have been able to

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Speaker 1: process what we are all witnessing.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's a hard thing to process, and I

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Speaker 2: don't think that we should process this as we process,

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Speaker 2: you know, changes in administration, differences in policies that happen

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Speaker 2: as a result of the outcome of elections. What's happening

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Speaker 2: now is not normal. It's not normal. I've served in

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Speaker 2: the Justice Department under Republican as well as Democratic attorneys general,

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Speaker 2: and what's going on, for instance, at the Justice Department

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Speaker 2: now is unprecedented. And what you see this administration doing

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Speaker 2: with regard to a whole range of things, attacking universities,

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Speaker 2: attacking the media, attacking law firms. These are all the

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Speaker 2: kinds of things that you would expect to see in

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Speaker 2: a nation that is moving towards authoritarianism. And it's certainly

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Speaker 2: inconsistent with who we say we are, you know, as Americans,

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Speaker 2: and what our system of government is supposed to be like.

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Speaker 2: So it's a hard thing to process. But to the

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Speaker 2: extent I've been able to, I put myself in opposition

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Speaker 2: and I think that's where everybody has to be. Unless

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Speaker 2: we are forceful in our opposition, visible in our opposition,

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Speaker 2: this administration will run rough shot over that which defines

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Speaker 2: this nation and makes this nation exceptional.

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Speaker 1: I want to ask you about the Justice Department because

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Speaker 1: I think for most outsiders it is still kind of

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Speaker 1: a mystery about how it works and functions and the

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Speaker 1: people who were there. Can you describe what has been

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Speaker 1: happening at the DOJ because I report on it piecemeal,

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Speaker 1: But can you tell us sort of holistically what is

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Speaker 1: going on there and the impact of what's happening.

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Speaker 2: Well, you only have to look at kind of, you know,

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Speaker 2: some specific things to get a sense of what's going

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Speaker 2: on there. The firing of career employees that never happens.

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Speaker 2: You know. I started in the Justice Department when I

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Speaker 2: got out of law school, in the thing called the

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Speaker 2: Public Integrity Section, which investigates corrupt politicians, and I tried cases,

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Speaker 2: you know, all around the country. At the end of

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Speaker 2: the Bida administration, are about thirty people in that section

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Speaker 2: now there are four four. The voting section in the

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Speaker 2: Civil Rights Division had about I guess about thirty thirty

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Speaker 2: five employees lawyers. It now has about five these people

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Speaker 2: have been fired, moved to other positions, meaningless positions, or

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Speaker 2: encouraged to take early buyouts, and essentially kind of squeezed out.

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Speaker 2: So the Justice Department is not doing things in a

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Speaker 2: way that other justice departments under Republican or Democratic presidents

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Speaker 2: or Attorney's general you know, have ever done. The Justice

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Speaker 2: Department has pulled itself away from cases that had already

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Speaker 2: been filed in Texas with regard to some voting rights issues,

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Speaker 2: just pulled itself out of a case that had already

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Speaker 2: been filed and the Justice Department was participating in. Among

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Speaker 2: the most disturbing things Katie is the fact that this

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Speaker 2: Attorney General doesn't seem to understand that the Justice Department

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Speaker 2: has to stand to some degree separate and apart from

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Speaker 2: the White House. She views herself as Donald Trump's lawyer

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Speaker 2: and used the Justice Department as an arm of the

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Speaker 2: White House. And the best ages are the ones who

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Speaker 2: guard jealously the independence of the Justice Department, given the

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Speaker 2: ability that the Department has to deprive people of their

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Speaker 2: liberty of their property, and you can't make those decisions

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Speaker 2: on the basis of political considerations. And that's my biggest

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Speaker 2: fear they will remake the department, they will move out

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Speaker 2: people who are steeped in its traditions, and then simply

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Speaker 2: do Donald Trump's bidding.

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Speaker 1: And all the King's forces and all the King's men

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Speaker 1: will not be able to put it back together again

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Speaker 1: even when he leaves office.

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Speaker 2: Potentially, that's a big concern. There's going to certainly have

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Speaker 2: to be a rebuilding effort. But I think in some

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Speaker 2: ways that is for me, the silver aligning. There's the

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Speaker 2: potential here to not only rebuild, but to try to

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Speaker 2: reimagine what government could look like, not only the Justice

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Speaker 2: Department but the other agencies as well. What should a

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Speaker 2: twenty first century Justice Department look like? You're going to

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Speaker 2: be coming in in twenty twenty nine, I hope a

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Speaker 2: new Attorney General looking at the carnage that would be left,

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Speaker 2: and so maybe you just don't put people back in

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Speaker 2: the same places, in the same numbers, but you try

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Speaker 2: to figure out, well, what is it that a twenty

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Speaker 2: first century Justice Department ought to be about, and you

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Speaker 2: staff it up, you prioritize it with you know, with

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Speaker 2: that in mind, that is a That's what I try

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Speaker 2: to think of as a silver lining. But make no

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Speaker 2: mistake between now in January of twenty twenty nine, there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of damage that's going to be done not

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Speaker 2: only to the Justice Department, but other executive branch agencies

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 1: And it has already been done, right.

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Speaker 2: Has already been done. I mean, you know the kinds

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Speaker 2: of things where you essentially dismantle, you know, the Agency

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Speaker 2: for International Development. It's kind of like whoa what, you know,

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Speaker 2: a congressionally mandated and funded agency that they simply close down.

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Speaker 2: You know, the little knotheads that doge walking around and saying,

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Speaker 2: for whatever reason, we're going to disband to this agency

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Speaker 2: which projects soft power for the United States.

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Speaker 1: Also, the people who are monitoring waste, fraud and abuse,

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Speaker 1: which is public enemy number one for the Trump administration.

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Speaker 1: The people who are charged with investigating abuse have all

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Speaker 1: been fired, right.

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Speaker 2: The inspectors general, you know, all but to let go.

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Speaker 2: And so you can almost see how this is playing out.

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Speaker 2: We'll remove all of the people who are supposed to

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Speaker 2: monitor these kinds of things, all the folks who might

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Speaker 2: be looking either outwardly or inwardly at potential matters of corruption,

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Speaker 2: and so then we have a free hand to do

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Speaker 2: that which we want to do.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned Pam Bondi's belief that she's Donald Trump's personal lawyer.

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Speaker 1: I want to read a quote from The Guardian which

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Speaker 1: sums up I think the current state of the DOJ.

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Speaker 1: Some say that the Department has in effect become Trump's

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Speaker 1: personal law firm. Since taking office the second time, Trump

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Speaker 1: has relied on staunch loyalists Pam Bondi and an elite

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Speaker 1: group of Justice Department lawyers to investigate critics from his

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Speaker 1: first administration plus political opponents, and curb prosecutions of US

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Speaker 1: business bribery overseas. Ex prosecutors point to how Bondi and

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Speaker 1: the department's top lawyers have halted some major prosecutions, fired

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Speaker 1: or forced out laws who didn't meet MAGA litmus tests,

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Speaker 1: and were instructed by Trump to investigate a key Democratic

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Speaker 1: fundraising vehicle as examples of how Trump and Bondi have

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Speaker 1: politicized the Justice Department. You know you were President Obama's

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Speaker 1: Attorney general for six years from two thousand and nine

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Speaker 1: to twenty fifteen. You know, I think the Justice Department

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Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong. Has often been accused of

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Speaker 1: being overly political. If you think about you know, RFK

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Speaker 1: being the Attorney General for JFK or Ed Meese right,

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Speaker 1: and Ronald Reagan, and I think there's been criticisms that

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Speaker 1: Merrick Garland was too careful and too a political and

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Speaker 1: dragged his feet. But this is a whole new level

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Speaker 1: of the politicization of the Department of Justice. And as

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Speaker 1: you're watching this, I just wonder what you're thinking and

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Speaker 1: how angry you're getting and how you're figuring out what

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Speaker 1: can be done, as you mentioned twenty twenty nine, but

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Speaker 1: it's a long way until then.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a harder thing to say politicization as opposed

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Speaker 2: to what it is that they're doing, because they're politicizing

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Speaker 2: the department and have done so relatively quickly. But they're

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Speaker 2: not politicizing the Justice Department. They're weaponize the Justice Department.

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Speaker 2: They're using the Justice Department to get at the perceived

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Speaker 2: enemies of the president. And they're not necessarily enemies. There

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Speaker 2: are political opponents. They're critics or people who potentially might

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Speaker 2: have the capacity to oppose him in some ways. And

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Speaker 2: so this is unbelievably disturbing. I mean, this is a

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Speaker 2: cornerstone of our our system of government, that you have

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Speaker 2: a justice department that, although a part of an administration,

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Speaker 2: still maintains a healthy dose of independence. Yeah, ags get

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Speaker 2: criticized all the time for doing things that are perceived

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Speaker 2: to be or said to be political, and most of

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Speaker 2: the time that's just political rhetoric. Justice departments that actually

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Speaker 2: do do things on the basis of politics are the

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Speaker 2: ones that get in trouble. Those are the ages who

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Speaker 2: get indicted, are who are not looked upon favorably by history.

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Speaker 2: History is not going to be kind to Pambondi. History's

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Speaker 2: not going to be kind to the people who serve

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Speaker 2: under her in the Justice Department now, because they're doing

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Speaker 2: things inconsistent with the best traditions of a department, an

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Speaker 2: organization that means the world to me. I grew up

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Speaker 2: in the Justice Department. I grew up in that place,

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Speaker 2: you know, out of law school line lawyer, US attorney,

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Speaker 2: deputy Attorney general, attorney general. Most of my career has

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Speaker 2: been spent in the United States Department of Justice, and

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Speaker 2: it tears me apart to see what they're doing and

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Speaker 2: tearing apart that very institution.

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Speaker 1: Let me ask you about what's going on in Los

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Speaker 1: Angeles if I could, because obviously that is dominating the

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Speaker 1: headlines right now. After several days of protest against immigration

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Speaker 1: enforcement raised by Ice. As you well know, President Trump

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Speaker 1: bypassed Governor Gavin Newsom and called up four thousand National

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Speaker 1: Guard troops and a battalion of seven hundred marines to

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Speaker 1: the city of Los Angeles. Legally and historically, how extraordinary

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Speaker 1: is this move?

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Speaker 2: Legally, it's an interesting case as to you know, I'd

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Speaker 2: think California has sued, and it'll be interesting to see

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Speaker 2: exactly how the case plays out. But historically this is

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Speaker 2: something that runs counter to our traditions and counter to

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Speaker 2: the practice that past presidents have used. You know, when

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Speaker 2: a president has called out the National Guard without the

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Speaker 2: request of a governor. Well, you think back to you know,

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Speaker 2: the sixties, when I guess President Johnson called out the

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Speaker 2: National Guard to protect the Selma to Montgomery marchers out

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Speaker 2: of concern that George Wallace and you know, the state

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Speaker 2: troopers there who cracked John Lewis's head on the Selma

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Speaker 2: Edmund Pettis Bridge might not have the marcher's best interest

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Speaker 2: at heart. So you can see something like that happening here.

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Speaker 2: There's no basis to believe that the state and local

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Speaker 2: authorities can't handle what's going on. I think this administration

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Speaker 2: is itching for a fight. They want to do things

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Speaker 2: that are going to antagonize people who are using their

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Speaker 2: First Amendment rights to protest the immigration policies of the administration.

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Speaker 2: They want pictures to show people in the streets doing

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Speaker 2: you know, negative things. And to be fair, there are

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Speaker 2: people who need to be held accountable. You know, people

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Speaker 2: who are throwing things at cops, people who are you know,

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Speaker 2: saying negative things to cops, physically confronting.

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Speaker 1: Them, burning up cop cars, things like that.

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Speaker 2: Those people ought to be in jail. They're thugs, you know,

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Speaker 2: they're hooligan. They need to be in jail.

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Speaker 1: They're exploiting the situation.

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Speaker 2: Right, So there is that, But the vast majority of

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Speaker 2: the people who are protesting are simply doing so in

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Speaker 2: a peaceful way. Now, so I don't, you know, countenance

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Speaker 2: people who are doing things that physically harm cops, you know,

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Speaker 2: block traffic on major thoroughfares. It's also that's counterproductive at

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Speaker 2: the end of the day. And you know, people waving

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Speaker 2: flags of foreign nations think about this. I mean, how

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Speaker 2: if you have you want to get the American people

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Speaker 2: on your side and I think as regard to these

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Speaker 2: immigration policies, the American people are appalled at what this

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Speaker 2: administration is doing. But they're also kind of pushed back

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Speaker 2: by some of the tactics that are being used by

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Speaker 2: some of these demonstrators. But this is all political. This

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Speaker 2: is all political. I mean to put you know, to

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Speaker 2: call up National guardsmen and then they call up marines. Now,

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Speaker 2: these marines do a great job at what it is

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Speaker 2: that they do. I would bet that crowd control is

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Speaker 2: not something that the United States Marine Corps is trained

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Speaker 2: to do. And so that's just an incendiary kind of

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Speaker 2: thing that Whiskey Pete and Donald Trump have decided that

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Speaker 2: they want to do.

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Speaker 1: Do you think they're intentionally trying to escalate the tension

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Speaker 1: and create chaos instead of diffusing it asolutely.

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Speaker 2: They want to antagonize, escalate and get the pictures that

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Speaker 2: they want, which is to show you know, people hurling things,

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Speaker 2: setting cars of fire, blocking traffic, you know, doing all

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Speaker 2: those kinds of things to try to convince people. As

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Speaker 2: Steven Miller said that there's a war of civilizations going on,

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Speaker 2: what the hell does that mean? You know, really, I mean,

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Speaker 2: you're trying to you know, we got criticized. President Obama

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Speaker 2: was criticized of being the deporter in chief. If you

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Speaker 2: look at what it is that we did. We use

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Speaker 2: the courts to get people who have recently come to

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Speaker 2: the United States, the immigration courts get them out, and

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Speaker 2: then we went after people who committed serious crimes. We

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Speaker 2: didn't take four year old girls who were in the

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Speaker 2: potentially going to die and deport them to Mexico. We

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Speaker 2: didn't take people who've been here. There was a waitress

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Speaker 2: I think in Missouri, been here for twenty years, pull

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Speaker 2: her out of her, you know, place of employment, and

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Speaker 2: try to send her back. This is an administration that

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Speaker 2: views certain immigrants in certain ways. If these people we're

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Speaker 2: trying to get in from Norway, from Sweden, from Finland,

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Speaker 2: from Northern European countries, any problem with that, I bet

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Speaker 2: you know Afrikaners. Yeah, we're letting those folks in from

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Speaker 2: South Africa. But if you happen to be Hispanic, if

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Speaker 2: you happen to be a person from Haiti, from you know,

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Speaker 2: African countries, we don't want those people. They don't want

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Speaker 2: those people in this country. And that's what that's kind

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Speaker 2: of the the underpinnings of their immigration policy, and that's

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Speaker 2: why Miller talks about this clash of civilizations.

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Speaker 1: So you think it's racism pure and simple.

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Speaker 2: Not pure and simple. But there's a component to that,

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Speaker 2: I mean racism, ethnicism. I guess that you might call it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean you'd have to be reluctant to look at that,

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Speaker 2: which is fairly obvious, you know. I mean, you send

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Speaker 2: a plane to get I don't know, was it fifty

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Speaker 2: sixty Africanas out of South Africa. You insult the President

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Speaker 2: of South Africa.

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Speaker 1: In the show a photo from Congo, from Congo.

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Speaker 2: That's got nothing to do with South Africa. It's all

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Speaker 2: laying up predicate for the kinds of things that they

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Speaker 2: want to do with our immigration system, again inconsistent with

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Speaker 2: how America has always said it is and by and large,

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Speaker 2: how we've always conducted ourselves when it comes to immigration.

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Speaker 2: At the beginning of the twentieth century, you know, it

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Speaker 2: was Italians and Irish who negative things were set about,

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Speaker 2: and they would try to try to keep them out

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Speaker 2: of the country. Chinese Exclusion Act. Now, these are not

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Speaker 2: great moments in American history, and I fear that we're

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Speaker 2: replicating that in the twenty first century under this administration.

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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, it's Katie Curic. You know I'm always on

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Speaker 1: and of course covering the news, and I know that

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Speaker 1: Visit goodfeet dot com to learn more, find the nearest store,

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Speaker 1: or book your own free personalized fitting. What's frustrating to

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Speaker 1: me is it shows the inability of our government to

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Speaker 1: actually tackle a problem. There should have been comprehensive immigration

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Speaker 1: reform long ago, and yet time and time again it

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Speaker 1: never is able to gain traction. And we need a fair,

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Speaker 1: humane immigration system in this country. And why can't Congress,

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Speaker 1: Why can't they come up with a better plan that

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Speaker 1: is fair to people but also involves laws.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, President Bush, George W. Bush certainly tried, right.

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Speaker 1: Kennedy and McCain tried there.

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Speaker 2: You know, Congress Senator Langford from Oklahoma came up with

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Speaker 2: a bill that you know, made people on the other side.

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Speaker 2: Democrats swallow hard, but said, you know, we'll support that.

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Speaker 2: And what happened. Donald Trump said, no, don't vote for that.

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Speaker 2: He wants the issue. He wants the issue. This is

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Speaker 2: a central part of his administration. It's been a central

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Speaker 2: part of his campaigns. When he wrote down that old

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Speaker 2: and escalated to announce his candidacy back in August twenty fifteen,

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Speaker 2: he talked about, you know, Mexicans are rapists. They're not

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Speaker 2: sending us their best. This has been a part of

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Speaker 2: his stick and he'd rather have the issue than the solution.

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Speaker 2: But you're right. I mean, we have got to come

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Speaker 2: to grips with the fact that we have millions of

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Speaker 2: undocumented people here who have contributed, you know, mightily, who

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Speaker 2: pay taxes, who pay Social Security taxes, who are part

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Speaker 2: of the fabric of this nation. They need to be

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Speaker 2: treated fairly. But at the same time also recognize that

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Speaker 2: borders mean something, and we can't take all of El

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Speaker 2: Salvador and all of Guatemala and all Upondors into the

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Speaker 2: United States. There are processes that people have to go through.

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Speaker 2: If they don't follow those processes well as we did

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Speaker 2: in the Obama administration, they need to be removed. But

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Speaker 2: there is the need for and there has been the

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Speaker 2: need for comprehensive immigration reform for decades.

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Speaker 1: At this point, having said that, this is not the

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Speaker 1: solution to just in a very draconian an inhumane way,

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Speaker 1: take people who have been in this country, as you said,

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Speaker 1: who are paying taxes, you know, money's going into the

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Speaker 1: Social Security system, who are actually really important for our economy.

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Speaker 1: Forty eight percent of agricultural workers are undocumented, and you know,

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Speaker 1: look at the nation's hotels and you look at all

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Speaker 1: kinds of workers. I think I heard there are a

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Speaker 1: million undocumented workers in Los Angeles. You know, if all

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Speaker 1: of these people are forced out of the country, it's

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Speaker 1: going to have a huge impact on the economy, is

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Speaker 1: it not.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to have a huge impact on the economy.

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Speaker 2: There are certain industries that rely a great deal on

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Speaker 2: immigrant labor, from meatpacking in Iowa to people who are

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Speaker 2: picking crops in Florida and in California. But you know,

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Speaker 2: we're also turning our back on our immigrant past. And

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Speaker 2: here's the deal. Everybody who's listening to this, watching this,

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Speaker 2: You know you're an immigrant stock unless you are descended

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Speaker 2: from the Native American people. If you're the waspiest person

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Speaker 2: in the world, if you can trace your roots to

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Speaker 2: the Mayflower. Guess what those folks who came over here

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Speaker 2: were immigrants. They were fleeing religious persecution. And it's just

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Speaker 2: the question of how you got here and when you

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Speaker 2: got here. And it's always seems to be that the

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Speaker 2: latest are the ones who get villified and then they become,

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Speaker 2: you know, assimilated into our society, and then you know

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Speaker 2: they're fine. And so you know, Trump and his folks

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Speaker 2: are trying to recreate an America that really never existed

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Speaker 2: in nineteen fifties America. You know where June Cleaver was

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Speaker 2: was vacuuming in high heels and in pearls, their white

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Speaker 2: picket fences, no gay people, no.

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Speaker 1: Black people, making an after school snack for Beaver Rally

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Speaker 1: and Lumpy and Lumpy.

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Speaker 2: And Eddie Haskell is Eddie Haskells not.

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Speaker 1: Forgetting thank you, missus clean.

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Speaker 2: Missus clever. He's my man. I love that guy.

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Speaker 1: We're clearly the same generation.

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Speaker 2: Eddie was the man, definitely the me.

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Speaker 1: He was such a kiss ass. I couldn't stand him.

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Speaker 2: Oh I love that guy.

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Speaker 1: I was a lumpy girl.

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Speaker 2: Oh ump, lumpy Rutherford.

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Speaker 1: Okay, all right, anyway, we digress.

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Speaker 2: Oh there's important stuff, you know.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you Eric about Kilmar Obrega Garcia,

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Speaker 1: who was wrongly deported to El Salvador earlier this year

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Speaker 1: despite a court order barring his removal. So finally he

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Speaker 1: comes home, right, and now he's facing these newly unsealed

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Speaker 1: federal charges. I am so confused by this. Can you

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Speaker 1: help me out?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think we're all a little confused by that.

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Speaker 2: The administration was confused by that when they said that, well,

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Speaker 2: we deported this guy whoops by mistake, and they.

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Speaker 1: They showed a photoshop picture of his fingers.

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Speaker 2: Right, Well, the supposed he had tattoos that tied him

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Speaker 2: to a gang. You know. Trump looked at it and said, no, no,

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Speaker 2: that's not that's not doctored. And it's like, uh, yes

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Speaker 2: it is, but all right, So yeah, they were confused,

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Speaker 2: and they removed him without due process.

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Speaker 1: Well, I wanted to ask you about due process, but

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Speaker 1: first before I do, and jump ahead, what is going

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Speaker 1: on with this man?

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Speaker 2: Well, he's finally back in the United States, there are

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Speaker 2: now he's now facing charges that appear to have been

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Speaker 2: uncovered relatively recently. I read that a prosecutor has resigned

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Speaker 2: in the Justice Department as a result of the actions

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Speaker 2: that have been taken against this now defendant.

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Speaker 1: Mister Garcia, is this a face saving measure in your review?

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Speaker 2: I don't know about the strength of the case, but

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Speaker 2: it does seem a little suspicious that these charges are

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Speaker 2: now brought and they use that as the basis to

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Speaker 2: get him, you know, from that hell hole in l Salvador,

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Speaker 2: back to you know, the United States, when they could

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Speaker 2: quite simply have told, you know, President Mukeley, you know,

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Speaker 2: give us this guy. And if the American government had

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Speaker 2: said that, he would have shown up in in the

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Speaker 2: United States. So we'll see, I mean, we'll see what

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Speaker 2: this how these charges go, and we'll have an ability

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Speaker 2: to judge whether or not this was a pretext or

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Speaker 2: whether there is a real basis to conclude that he

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Speaker 2: violated the law in the ways in which the government

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Speaker 2: has delineated in an indictment.

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Speaker 1: Why is due process so important?

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Speaker 2: Due process is one of the foundational parts of our society.

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Speaker 2: Government power can only be used against individuals in prescribed ways.

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Speaker 2: Due process means that you have the ability to challenge

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Speaker 2: a governmental action that's directed at you, whether it's an

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Speaker 2: attempt to take property from you, to imprison you. The

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Speaker 2: government has to be put to its proof before it

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Speaker 2: can actually act. And what we've seen with so many

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Speaker 2: of these deportations is that people have simply been snatched

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Speaker 2: off the street, put on airplanes and then move to

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Speaker 2: El Salvador, South Sudan, Libya, you know, without any ability

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Speaker 2: for these people to say, well, wait a minute, what

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Speaker 2: why am I being taken away? Proved to me, what's

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Speaker 2: the basis for the legitimate basis for this action? And

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Speaker 2: people need to understand governments make mistakes, you know. I

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00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 2: think about that, that that game makeup artist, that guy.

434
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,439
Speaker 2: I mean, it's best I can tell. He's taken because

435
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 2: of tattoos that he had on his hands that apparently

436
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 2: were misinterpreted. I don't know where this poor man is

437
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 2: at this point, and I know got to El Salvador.

438
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 2: I don't know what has happened, you know, to him,

439
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,159
Speaker 2: there's really no basis for his deportation, is best I

440
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 2: can tell. And yet because he didn't have due process.

441
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,679
Speaker 2: He didn't have the ability to challenge that which the

442
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 2: government wanted to do to him. He was simply picked up,

443
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 2: put on a plane and then taken down to you know,

444
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 2: that that place in El Salvador.

445
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 1: And then I think about how sort of capricious it

446
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: is when someone is is basically let go like that

447
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 1: way in Missouri, when there was that community outcry, or

448
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 1: the four year old girl who needed life saving medical care.

449
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 1: But how many people are out there like them, who

450
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 1: don't necessarily have a community or a citizenry rising up

451
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 1: and defending them.

452
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's both the concern I have. How

453
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 2: many other people are like that? And that's also the

454
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 2: thing gives me some degree of optimism and shows the

455
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 2: power of the American people. When that community in Missouri said, no,

456
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 2: you're not taking her. What happened? Lo and behold she reappears.

457
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 2: When the media does the great job that they did

458
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 2: to publicize the case of that four year old, that

459
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 2: poor four year old girl, cute as a button, cute

460
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 2: as a button, what happens, Well, suddenly, okay, she can

461
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 2: stay here, you know, for medical treatment that basically keeps

462
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,159
Speaker 2: her alive. The power of the media, the power of

463
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 2: the American people cannot be underestimated, and you can't overestimate

464
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 2: the power of government when those two forces are in opposition.

465
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 2: And that's why it's incumbent upon the American people to

466
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 2: be conversant with what's going on, to be active, to

467
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 2: be engaged, and be committed to defending our values. And

468
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 2: the media can't be cowed. The media can't be coued,

469
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 2: is it then? To some degree? I think so, you know,

470
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 2: there's a desire, it's a human thing to look at

471
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:31,199
Speaker 2: situations and to try to look at both sides, normalize things,

472
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 2: be fair, be fair, and sometimes you've got to, you know,

473
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 2: call them as they are. I mean, if I'm sitting

474
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,199
Speaker 2: here with you, I'm a Democrat, you're a Republican, and

475
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 2: we're in the middle of a hurricane, and I'm a

476
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 2: Democrat and I says, look, you know, it's raining outside,

477
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 2: and you the Republicans say, no, it's sunny outside, but

478
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 2: there's a hurricane going on. The reporters there has got

479
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,679
Speaker 2: to say. Can't simply say, well, the Republican said that

480
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 2: there was no rain, the Democrats said that there was rain.

481
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 2: End of analysis. No, you got to say the Republican

482
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,360
Speaker 2: was unbelievably wrong because in fact, there was a hurricane

483
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 2: out there, and I think that probably makes someone in

484
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 2: the media a little uncomfortable.

485
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 1: Well, I think when you try to search for the truth,

486
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 1: and I can talk about this, you know better than me,

487
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 1: very personally, that you're often accused of being biased. And

488
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: if you actually just want to present facts and you

489
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,439
Speaker 1: are searching for truth, that is not being biased. I

490
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: have so many people saying to me, Eric, what happened

491
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: to you? And I said, nothing happened to me. Maybe

492
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:36,640
Speaker 1: it's what has happened to our country.

493
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's the deal. You've got to be prepared

494
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 2: to deal with those charges of bias if what you

495
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 2: are carefully reporting is truth in the same way that

496
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 2: I was talking about before. You know, those congressmen, you've

497
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 2: got to be acting a way that's consistent with your oath,

498
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 2: even if that means you're going to be charged with

499
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 2: being disloyal. Time are you going to be I'm married,

500
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 2: you're gonna be called a rhino or whatever.

501
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 1: Your musk is going to support your opposition. Although that's

502
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: kind of a mess too now right.

503
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 2: I mean, in universities have got to be prepared, you know,

504
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 2: to take on forces that are doing things inconsistent with

505
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 2: the way in which universities are supposed to conduct themselves.

506
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 2: And it may cost your money, you know. Okay, you

507
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 2: got to be prepared for that. You know, opposition, effective

508
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 2: opposition does not come without a price. The reporting of

509
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 2: truth frequently does not come without a price. We've seen

510
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 2: this throughout our history, where you know, brave news gatherers

511
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 2: have lost their lives reporting the truth, and we dishonor them.

512
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 2: People in the media dishonor them if we are not willing.

513
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 2: Members of the media are not willing to report truthfully now,

514
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 2: and we've got to be supportive. We the American people,

515
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 2: have to be supportive of people in the media. We

516
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 2: have the guts to do exactly that focus on truth.

517
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,719
Speaker 1: Getting back to Los Angeles, I wanted to ask you

518
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: about this Posse Commatatis Act. You know, I feel like

519
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 1: I've gotten a law degree in the last few days.

520
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 2: Eric.

521
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 1: It's an eighteen seventy eight law that generally bars the

522
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: US military from engaging in civilian law enforcement, and a

523
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: lot of people are saying, hey, Donald Trump, you cannot

524
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: deploy the National Guard or Marines to do the job

525
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: of law enforcement. This is not right. So does this

526
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 1: law or this act not have any teeth.

527
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, that's why they're trying to characterize it as

528
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 2: the use of the military for national security purposes. I mean,

529
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,959
Speaker 2: the understand that Passecommatadis makes is a big problem if

530
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 2: they are to be if the military is to be

531
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 2: engaged in domestic law enforcements. So they're trying to characterize

532
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 2: it as anything but that, and so they have to

533
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 2: you know, say negative things about the protesters, that they

534
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 2: are not only protesting inappropriately, but they're also a threat

535
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 2: to national security, and in that way they think they

536
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 2: can justify the use of the military.

537
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 1: Are they also claiming that of the undocumented people who

538
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: they're apprehending, that they're a threat to national security?

539
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's that's certainly the claim, and that's

540
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 2: why they try to make use of the military there

541
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 2: to the extent that they possibly can.

542
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: How did you like the fact that these protesters are

543
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: being called insurrectionists, a word that was never used on

544
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 1: January sixth.

545
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, you know it. There's a whole bunch of

546
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 2: stuff here that's a little hypocritical. You know, you call

547
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 2: these folks, insurrectionists, these protesters, and they're doing that which

548
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 2: the vast, vast majority. Now they're exceptions, but the vast

549
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 2: majority are simply doing that which is guaranteed by our

550
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 2: First Amendment. The people who stormed our capital on January

551
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 2: the sixth were worthy of pardons. And when I hear

552
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 2: people in this administration talk about how they want to

553
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 2: protect the police, I think, well, wait a minute, what

554
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 2: were you all doing when you pardoned all those people

555
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 2: who beat the hell out of cops on the capital

556
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 2: steps and in the Capitol on January the sixth, What

557
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 2: we try to do with the blue theya, what we're

558
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 2: trying to do with regard to police officers? When you

559
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 2: decided that those true insurrectionists were deserving of pardons.

560
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: So is he using that terminology to set himself up

561
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,959
Speaker 1: to use the Insurrection Act? And can you explain what

562
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: that means?

563
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 2: Well, that's a concern that I have that the possibility

564
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 2: exists that that which we've seen now is really just

565
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 2: a prelude, a foundation for the imposition of the Insurrection Act,

566
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 2: which gives a president really broad ranging powers to do

567
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 2: a whole range of things, but to declare an insurrection

568
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 2: means you've got to meet a number of their number

569
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 2: of requirements. I don't think those are met. I suspect

570
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 2: they probably will not be met.

571
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 1: Will he use it anyway?

572
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 2: Well, that's what worries me, you know. I mean, if

573
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 2: you'd ask me that question even six seven months ago,

574
00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 2: I would have said, you know, Katie, you're being a

575
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 2: little alarmist here, hyperbolic. And now I can't dismiss that.

576
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 2: I mean, I really can't. David from wrote a piece

577
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 2: in The Atlantic, I think last week or so where

578
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 2: he talked about the possibility that the Insurrection Act might

579
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 2: be used to somehow tinker with the twenty twenty six midterms.

580
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 2: And again, that's the kind of thing that I would

581
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 2: have read five six months ago and thought, you know,

582
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 2: that's just nuts. And now I think we have to

583
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 2: be prepared. I still don't think it happens, you know,

584
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 2: I think that twenty twenty six elections will go on

585
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 2: and they'll be fine. But I think we have to

586
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 2: at least be prepared for the possibility, the possibility that

587
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 2: some attempt might be made to fool around with elections

588
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 2: in certain parts of the country. And the fact that

589
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 2: I even say that as a former Attorney general that

590
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,719
Speaker 2: we have to be prepared for. That possibility is something

591
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: that's extremely alarming.

592
00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: If you want to get smarter every morning with a

593
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: break down of the news and fascinating takes on health

594
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter,

595
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 1: Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. You

596
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 1: talked earlier about the Justice Department being gutted, and I'm

597
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 1: wondering who is there or who will protect the rights

598
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: of these protesters to exercise their First Amendment rights, the

599
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:37,399
Speaker 1: right to assemble, the right to free speech. If this

600
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 1: civil Rights division of the Justice Department has been you know,

601
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: dismantled essentially, who will stand up for these people?

602
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:48,720
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, I mean I think there are a couple

603
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 2: of sources. You've certainly got state attorneys general and state

604
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 2: lawyers who can protect the rights of these folks. And

605
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,839
Speaker 2: then there's the private bar, which is why you know,

606
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 2: when law firms cut these deals with the administration, that's

607
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 2: why that was so troubling. It sends a chill out

608
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 2: among other law firms who might decide to be the

609
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 2: lawyers for these protesters, and now they know, well, if

610
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 2: we get crosswise with this administration, maybe we will be

611
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 2: the subject of an executive order, and so that is

612
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,720
Speaker 2: one of the reasons why you go after the law firms,

613
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 2: because you reduce the possibility that your opponents will have

614
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 2: adequate legal representation. So, yeah, the Justice Department is not

615
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 2: going to help an awful lot, but there are still

616
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 2: lots of lawyers in different places, both in government and

617
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 2: on the private side, that you can come to their assistance.

618
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 1: Having said that, is the legal system been effectively weakened

619
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 1: or diminished as a result of Donald Trump's actions?

620
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 2: You know, I would say it's been diminished or weakened

621
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 2: in certain ways. I worry about what's happened to big

622
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 2: law firms and their reactions to some of these executive orders,

623
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 2: and I think there's been some weakness shown there. I

624
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 2: think the courts have generally been done extremely well. You know,

625
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 2: he has lost the overwhelming number of cases that have

626
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 2: been brought before federal judges, So I think the system

627
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 2: is held there. My concern there is that that's we're

628
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,879
Speaker 2: at the district court level, courts have held I think

629
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,240
Speaker 2: at the Court of appeals level, the courts will hold

630
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:23,760
Speaker 2: questions what ultimately is going to happen at the United

631
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 2: States Supreme Court, and there I get a little concerned

632
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 2: about with their view of their expansive view of executive power.

633
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 2: And you know that you look at that immunity decision

634
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 2: from you know, from the last term. Will that view

635
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 2: of executive power allow the Trump administration to do the

636
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 2: kinds of things that they are trying to do? Will

637
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court give them, you know, the authority to

638
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 2: do things that I think they are clearly inconsistent with

639
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,800
Speaker 2: our traditions, our norms, and and our laws.

640
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 1: Do you think the Supreme Court, I mean, have you

641
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 1: got in any kind of encouragement by some of their decisions,

642
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 1: by some of the justices seeming to not walk lockstep

643
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: with the president?

644
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I think I don't want to paint with

645
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 2: too broad a brush. I mean, I think I'm concerned

646
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,439
Speaker 2: about and you know, see what the Supreme Court does.

647
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 2: But I think that there is certainly a basis for

648
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 2: hope that the Supreme Court will act in the way

649
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 2: that Court appeals judges are acting, the way district court

650
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 2: judges have been acting. But it's not the sure thing

651
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 2: that I think, you know, it ought to be that

652
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 2: immunity decision can't be undervalued, you know, to make up

653
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 2: out whole cloth the notion that an American president is

654
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 2: above the law, is above the law, you know, can

655
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 2: violate the law, can direct you know, people in his

656
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 2: administration to do certain things without any kind of criminal liability.

657
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 2: I mean that's where that come from. I mean, where's that.

658
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 2: You know, they talk about originalism, tech stualism. Where's that

659
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 2: in any of the texts? You know?

660
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: And then the question is what will keep the administration

661
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 1: from ignoring any decisions made by the courts. You know,

662
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 1: I was disturbed to see that part of this budget

663
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 1: bill there was a provision that would prevent judges from

664
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 1: issuing contemptive court orders, forcing people to basically obey their

665
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 1: decisions in essence, right, And that is in the small

666
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: print of this budget bill. That is adding to this

667
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 1: whole notion of immunity in a significant way, is it not.

668
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's why this well go. I think, well,

669
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 2: the big beautiful bill has got to be examined page

670
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 2: by page. You know. I have problems with, you know,

671
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 2: the continuation of the tax cuts, which were I think unnecessary,

672
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 2: but you also have to look at those those kinds

673
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 2: of provisions though they're just kind of tucked away there.

674
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 2: They recognize the power that the courts have and the

675
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 2: power the district court judges have, and they're trying to

676
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:15,280
Speaker 2: decrease that power. They're trying to systematically eliminate all those areas,

677
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 2: all those places where they might run into opposition. And

678
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 2: that's the thing that worries me. What's the endgame here?

679
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 2: You know, if you take lawyers out of the mix,

680
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 2: if you take the media out of the mix, if

681
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 2: you take universities out of the mix, if you take

682
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 2: power away from.

683
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 1: Judges, there's no guardrails.

684
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 2: This is all to what end at the end of

685
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,280
Speaker 2: the day. What is it that you are you're trying

686
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 2: to do?

687
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 1: And that's uh, well, you tell me what do you

688
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 1: think they're trying to do?

689
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 2: You know, I worry are they trying to find ways

690
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 2: in which they perpetuate themselves in power in ways that

691
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 2: are inconsistent with our constitution? Are they trying to make

692
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:59,359
Speaker 2: sure that, you know, elections can be conducted in such

693
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 2: a way that they can guarantee result regardless of what

694
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 2: the American people, you know, want to do. One of

695
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 2: the things I've been fighting is this whole question of

696
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 2: racial and partisan jerrymandering. Do they want to somehow, you know,

697
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 2: use jerry mandering knowing that they've flattened the opposition, and

698
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 2: then gerrymander things in such a way so that they

699
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 2: can guarantee Republican domination of our state legislature's Republican domination

700
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,720
Speaker 2: of the United States House of Representatives because they're no checks.

701
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:32,959
Speaker 2: So that's at least one of the ways in which,

702
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 2: you know, I get concerned about what it is they

703
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 2: might do.

704
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 1: Tell us more about the work you're doing to address

705
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 1: your concerns.

706
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, as Barack and I President Obama and

707
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 2: I were leaving office, we tried to yeah, he's my

708
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 2: good by, my good buddy bo. As we were leaving office,

709
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 2: we try to figure out what is we want to

710
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 2: do in our post government lives. What is the thing

711
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 2: that we thought was most pose some of the greatest

712
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 2: problems that we had to confront, And we pointed to

713
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 2: the issue of jerrymandering, and so we formed up with

714
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 2: the National Democratic Redistricting Committee that really looks at the

715
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 2: way in which the lines are drawn for state legislative

716
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 2: seats as well as the United States House of Representatives.

717
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 2: And said, you know what, here's the deal. Let's just

718
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,280
Speaker 2: make that process fair. Let's do away with jury mandering,

719
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 2: which guarantees that Republicans are going to win in certain districts,

720
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 2: Democrats are going to win in certain districts. Let's just

721
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,760
Speaker 2: make it fair so that politicians are not picking their voters,

722
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 2: voters are choosing who their representatives ought to be. And

723
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,800
Speaker 2: so we've had a fair, a pretty good amount of success.

724
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 1: Well, how do you stop jerrymandering.

725
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 2: Well, there's a number of things. You bring lawsuits where

726
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 2: you find jerry manders. You put in place these independent

727
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 2: commissions to draw the lines instead of interested politicians, and

728
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 2: then you also support candidates who will stand for affair process.

729
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 2: And I mean to give you a sense kat of

730
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 2: how bad it was. You look at the election right

731
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 2: after the the jerry manders will put in place in

732
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 2: twenty eleven and twenty twelve congressional elections. Democrats got one

733
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 2: point four million more votes for the United States House

734
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 2: of Representatives in twenty twelve and ended up with a

735
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 2: thirty three seat deficit. And it's all a function of

736
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 2: the way in which the jerry manders were put in place.

737
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 2: When we started out Democrats to have a fifty to

738
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,280
Speaker 2: fifty US House of Representatives had to overperform by eight percent.

739
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:27,840
Speaker 2: Now we wiped that out, and we had the most

740
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 2: fair elections in terms of jurymandering, the lack of jury mandering,

741
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 2: I guess in twenty twenty two. But there's still, you know,

742
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,399
Speaker 2: a lot of work that needs to be done. Twenty

743
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 2: twenty two, twenty twenty four. You know, we saw things

744
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,839
Speaker 2: much better than they were in twenty twelve, but there

745
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 2: are still a lot of places Texas, Georgia, Wisconsin, Florida,

746
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 2: you know, Louisiana still places where his work to be done.

747
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:57,800
Speaker 1: There's also a Supreme Court case, Louisiana versus Calais, which

748
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 1: asks whether creating a second majority black districts, something ordered

749
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: under the Voting Rights Act, violates the Equal Protection Clause.

750
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 1: Critics say this case could gut what's left of Section two. Okay,

751
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 1: I just said that, I have no idea what that means.

752
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:14,280
Speaker 1: Do you explain?

753
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, Section two of the Voting

754
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,760
Speaker 2: Rights Act allows private parties as well as Justice Department

755
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 2: to challenge unfair voting practices, you know, on the basis

756
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,359
Speaker 2: of race. If you look at the way in which

757
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 2: the lines have been drawn in southern states where there's

758
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:36,359
Speaker 2: a history of racially polarized voting, that's a critical thing.

759
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 2: There's a history of racially polarized voting. Those parties that

760
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 2: have substantial African American support have been discriminated against. That's

761
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 2: the Democratic Party, say in Alabama. And so we brought

762
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 2: a lawsuit there. This very conservative Supreme Court said, you

763
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:53,839
Speaker 2: know what they make up. Black folks make up about

764
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 2: twenty seven percent of the population. Based on a number

765
00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 2: of congressmanment you have, there should be two Black opportunities districts.

766
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:03,720
Speaker 2: There was only one. We won the case.

767
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: A Black opportunity district.

768
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 2: It's a district that is created so that the African

769
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 2: American population in a particular area has the ability to

770
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 2: express its political will, so that there's if you want

771
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 2: to elect a black person as a congressman, as a congresswoman,

772
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 2: you have that ability. The lines are not drawn in

773
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 2: such a way that precludes that possibility and undermines the

774
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 2: ability of that twenty seven percent of the population to

775
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 2: fully express their political desires. And so after our successful suit,

776
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 2: that's a Supreme court upheld surprising to me, but got

777
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 2: to give them credit they help we were. We have

778
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 2: now for the first time, two black congressmen from Alabama,

779
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:49,320
Speaker 2: consistent again with the population demographics of the city of

780
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 2: the state and also taking into consideration something people have

781
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 2: to keep in mind that history of racially polarized voting

782
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 2: without that Section two is not necessarily a tool that

783
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 2: we can use. And so we've used that now in

784
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 2: Louisiana as well. And now the Louisiana folks who didn't

785
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 2: like the result are claiming that white people are being

786
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 2: discriminated against by the Voting Rights Act of nineteen sixty five,

787
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:18,240
Speaker 2: and they wanted to have that declared unconstitutional, rip away

788
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:22,319
Speaker 2: from the Voting Rights Act, the constitutionality of section two,

789
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 2: using some of the same arguments that we use when

790
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,919
Speaker 2: the Act was put in place back in nineteen sixty five.

791
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 1: You warned that what we're seeing in the US today

792
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 1: is quote remarkably similar to what happened in Europe in

793
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:39,320
Speaker 1: the thirties, and you've drawn comparisons to places like Hungary

794
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 1: and Turkey. Do you think Americans grasp what serious trouble

795
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 1: we are in and how the future may in fact look.

796
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I worry about that all the time. Too.

797
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, people don't get it to the degree that they

798
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 2: should now, and that concerns me a great deal. But

799
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 2: I think there's a growing awareness among people. As you

800
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 2: see these demonstrations breaking out not only in Los Angeles

801
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 2: but in other parts of the country, and you see

802
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 2: the size of them growing. I think there's a growing

803
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 2: awareness of that. The American people are generally slow to rouse,

804
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 2: but once aroused, they are a mighty force, and that's

805
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 2: something that we can never forget. All the great movements

806
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 2: in this nation came about not because politicians decided it

807
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 2: was time for women to get the right to vote,

808
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 2: it was time for a system of American apartheid to

809
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 2: be taken down. It was because the American people said,

810
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 2: you know what, it's not fair women can't vote. This

811
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,479
Speaker 2: system of segregation. That's just not fair, and that needs

812
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 2: to be torn down. That's the power of the American people,

813
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 2: and I think there is a growing awareness that fundamental liberties,

814
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 2: fundamental rights, fundamental notions of who we are as a

815
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 2: people and how we should be governed are being trampled.

816
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 2: And so I am optimistic that at the end of

817
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 2: the day of the American people will get to the

818
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 2: right place, and I think do so, you know, in time,

819
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 2: that's that's the thing that gives me optimism.

820
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 1: There's no guarantee that democracies last, is there no? No.

821
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 2: Democracy is an extremely fragile thing. You know, if you

822
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 2: look at Europe in the UH in the twenties and

823
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 2: the thirties, fascism communism didn't arise because they were strong.

824
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 2: They rose because democracy was weak. You know, the Weimar

825
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 2: Republic week, Kerensky, you know, in Russia week, so Lenin

826
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:39,919
Speaker 2: takes over, Hitler takes over. And I think unless we

827
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 2: make sure that our democracy is strong, the possibility, the

828
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:48,880
Speaker 2: possibility that something similar to what has happened in Europe

829
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 2: in the thirties, well more recently in Hungary and in Turkey,

830
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:53,720
Speaker 2: you know, could happen here in the United States as well.

831
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 1: Do you think your good friend Barack is speaking out

832
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 1: enough and warning enough people? And what about former presidents

833
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 1: like George W. Bush? He cannot be happy with what

834
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 1: is going on, and yet he's been pretty much silent.

835
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 1: And I know there's a great tradition of former presidents

836
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 1: not criticizing or opining on current presidents. But have you

837
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 1: been disappointed that Barack Obama isn't saying and doing more,

838
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: and that George W. Bush isn't saying much either. I'm

839
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:35,760
Speaker 1: not mentioning Bill Clinton because I think he's been speaking

840
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 1: out a little bit more, but I'm not sure. But

841
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:42,839
Speaker 1: could they get together and in a bipartisan way talk

842
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 1: about the dangers we're facing here?

843
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, in some ways that would be an

844
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:50,000
Speaker 2: ideal situation. But I do think that the criticism of

845
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:53,759
Speaker 2: President Obama is not necessarily well founded. I mean, he

846
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 2: gave a great speech at Hamilton College. He's worked with

847
00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:00,120
Speaker 2: us at the NDRC. I've gotten him to endure or

848
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 2: candidates at the state and local level to try to

849
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 2: make sure that the underpinnings of our democracy get the

850
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 2: appropriate amount of attention. He has used the power that

851
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 2: he still has, I think in a judicious way. You

852
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:15,839
Speaker 2: speak out too much and then you just become part

853
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 2: of the noise, and so I think he's got to

854
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 2: pick his spots, and I think he has done so

855
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 2: quite well. The thing that gets me, though, is that

856
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 2: people always saying, well, why are the Democrats not doing this?

857
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 2: Why is Obama not doing this?

858
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 1: People?

859
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:30,319
Speaker 2: He dascy, where the hell are the damn Republicans? You know,

860
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,919
Speaker 2: they're the ones with the power. It's their president. They

861
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 2: control the Senate, they control the House. They've got you know,

862
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 2: you might argue control of the judiciary. Where are the

863
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 2: Republicans here? Where's the opposition from the Republicans that I mean?

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00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 2: I know, I know these folks don't think that the

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00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 2: things that the Trump administration is doing, the things that

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00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 2: they're doing are appropriate, constitutional, consistent with our values. And

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00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 2: it's crickets from them. You know, they're afraid, politically afraid,

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00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 2: some say physically afraid.

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00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:07,040
Speaker 1: Is it really that much fun to be a member

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00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 1: of Congress that they just can't part with their jobs

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00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 1: to actually do the right thing?

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00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 2: You know, it seems to me that you got to

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00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 2: be take these jobs and be prepared to separate yourself

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00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 2: from the job if it means that you're asked to

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00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:26,239
Speaker 2: do something inconsistent with your oath. When you're Attorney General,

876
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 2: you get to put up the portraits of four of

877
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 2: your predecessors in the big conference room, and one of

878
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 2: the people I put up was Elliott Richardson. Had him

879
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:36,359
Speaker 2: off to the left so i'd always see him, and

880
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 2: he was there to remind me that, you know, you

881
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 2: may have to do something that goes contrary to it

882
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:44,800
Speaker 2: didn't have I didn't expect this to happen, but contrary

883
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:47,359
Speaker 2: to what somebody in the White House wants you to do,

884
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:50,239
Speaker 2: and it may cost you your job. But that's why

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00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,919
Speaker 2: Elliott Richardson was a hero to me, because when Richard

886
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 2: Nixon told him, you know, to fire the Watergate special prosecutor,

887
00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 2: I'm not doing that, and as a result, you know,

888
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 2: he lost his job. That's the kind of attitude that

889
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,399
Speaker 2: people in Congress need to have. Take actions that may, yeah,

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00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 2: may cost you your seat, but maybe it won't cost

891
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 2: you your seat if enough of you come together and say,

892
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 2: you know, we stand for principle over party, We stand

893
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 2: for patriotism over the concerns of the Republican Party.

894
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 1: And maybe the American people appreciate and respect elected leaders

895
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 1: who feel that they're doing the right thing. Maybe they'll actually,

896
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 1: to your point, be rewarded for that, not penalized.

897
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 2: See. I think that's right. I think people underestimate the

898
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 2: sagacity of the American people.

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00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:40,319
Speaker 1: You know, I like that word sagacity.

900
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:42,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, I hope I use it right.

901
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:44,800
Speaker 1: I think you did. They are wisdom.

902
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, there we go, there we go. And if it wasn't,

903
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:50,400
Speaker 2: we'll just do this part over. But no, I mean,

904
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 2: you know, the American people I think respect authenticity, they

905
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 2: respect strength, they respect people who are willing to take chances.

906
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 2: And yeah, that's what maybe Republicans would have to do.

907
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 2: But the chances they have to take our political ones.

908
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 2: And that's not too much to ask. You know, you

909
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 2: swore an oath to the Constitution, not to a man.

910
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 1: Eric Colter, I am so appreciative of your time. Thank you.

911
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:18,120
Speaker 1: This interview was a long time coming. We had a

912
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:19,320
Speaker 1: difficult time scheduling.

913
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 2: Well, your schedule was such, you know you you're a

914
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 2: busy woman. Oh I'm like semi retired. I could have

915
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 2: been here almost anything.

916
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 1: You know, our schedules just weren't aligning. But I'm really

917
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:30,879
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful that they finally have. Thank you so

918
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 1: so much.

919
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:32,479
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. This was fun.

920
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,

921
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 1: a subject you want us to cover, or you want

922
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:47,840
Speaker 1: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,

923
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 1: reach out send me a DM on Instagram. I would

924
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 1: love to hear from you. Next Question is a production

925
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 1: of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me,

926
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:04,120
Speaker 1: Katie Kirk, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,

927
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 1: and our producers are Adriana Fazio and Meredith Barnes. Julian

928
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 1: Weller composed art theme music. For more information about today's episode,

929
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 1: or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,

930
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Speaker 1: go to the description in the podcast app, or visit

931
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:23,840
Speaker 1: us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me

932
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 1: on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more

933
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

934
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:38,160
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hi everyone, it's

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00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:41,120
Speaker 1: Katie Couric. You know I'm always on the go between

936
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:45,240
Speaker 1: running my media company, hosting my podcast, and of course

937
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 1: covering the news. And I know that to keep doing

938
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Speaker 1: what I love, I need to start caring for what

939
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Speaker 1: gets me there, my feet. That's why I decided to

940
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Speaker 1: try the Good feed Stores personalized art support system. I

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Speaker 1: a personalized fitting, I left the store with my three

943
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Speaker 1: step system designed to improve comfort, balance and support. My feet,

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Speaker 1: knees and back are thanking me already. Visit goodfeat dot

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Speaker 1: com to learn more, find the nearest store, or book

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Speaker 1: your own free, personalized fitting.