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Speaker 1: Hello, this is Steve Fishman, and today we've got a

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Speaker 1: bonus episode for fans of Empire on Blood that was

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Speaker 1: season two on air Burden Feed. Empire Blood was optioned

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Speaker 1: by Blumhouse, which is a very prestigious production company. They

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Speaker 1: wanted to make Empire on Blood into a TV series.

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Speaker 2: Yay.

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Speaker 1: Blumhouse hired a rising star Emmil Pinnock to write the pilot.

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Speaker 1: Emil had a personal connection to this story. More about

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Speaker 1: that later. Emil brought along his writing pal, the very

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Speaker 1: talented Ian Robertson. Emil is from Harlem. Ian went to Harvard.

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Speaker 1: They had a tagline from Harlem to Harvard, and together

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Speaker 1: they went through eight or nine revisions until they landed

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Speaker 1: on what turned out to be I think a really

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Speaker 1: beautiful pilot script. Today's episode is about how a through

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Speaker 1: crime podcast, Empire on Blood, becomes a script for a

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Speaker 1: TV series. I got together with Ian and Emil in

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Speaker 1: a studio in Los Angeles.

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Speaker 3: Phones you know what, I don't need to use him?

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Speaker 3: Sure to you guys, you know whatever you want, Steve.

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Speaker 3: It looks by.

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Speaker 2: Writing with Steve Fishman, were with Steve Fisherman, journalism and display.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm faking it totally. I'll give you my

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Speaker 1: tip about journalism. Journalism is better to ask.

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Speaker 4: Emil introduced yourself Email Pinnock born and raised in Harlem,

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Speaker 4: New York. Film actor, first now writer, director, producer. I

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Speaker 4: have held deals at Blumhouse, Warner Brothers, above the Clouds.

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Speaker 1: Well, I just want to add here. You know it's

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Speaker 1: not just child actor. You played Oprah's son.

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Speaker 4: I did, yeah, absolutely and beloved and beloved in our community.

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Speaker 4: You have such a deficit that you have to create

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Speaker 4: your lane of like power and you got to find

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Speaker 4: it somewhere, like whatever it is. I just went super

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Speaker 4: confident and ended up getting that thing, getting the role

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Speaker 4: and confident.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. I appreciate that, man. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: One thing I wanted to explore in this conversation was

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Speaker 1: Emil's personal connection to the material. When you were relating

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Speaker 1: the Empire on Blood. There must have been moments when

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Speaker 1: you thought about that.

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Speaker 4: Probably every moment that I wrote Empire on Blood, I

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Speaker 4: thought about my personal experience.

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Speaker 2: And me and Ian writing it.

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Speaker 4: Sometimes I had to take breaks because it got so

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Speaker 4: personal that we was like, you know, going through this

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Speaker 4: and going through that, like you you almost are telling

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Speaker 4: a piece of your own story. And I think that's

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Speaker 4: why I the you know, the script came out so

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Speaker 4: well because we knew the characters. Mm hmmm he did.

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Speaker 4: He did a very good.

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Speaker 2: Job, and we and we really on it. We honored

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Speaker 2: the work.

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Speaker 1: We're going to get back to Emil's personal experience, the

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Speaker 1: one that helps him relate to cal. But first another introduction.

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Speaker 1: Ian Robertson is Emil's writing partner.

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Speaker 5: Ian, I uh from La Pasadena. Technically I went to

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Speaker 5: a fancy private school and uh, I ended up going

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Speaker 5: to Harvard for for undergrad and uh yeah got into

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Speaker 5: the industry. Definitely a little bit different story than than

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Speaker 5: the Mills for sure.

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Speaker 2: Much much different.

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Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, you know, I can't believe he wants

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Speaker 4: to Harvard even now he's like.

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Speaker 2: You know, and I want to Harvard undergrad. Micy, shut the.

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Speaker 4: Fuck up, bro, you better say that shit louder. But

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Speaker 4: with to Harvard, you know how that harvesd sweat is.

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Speaker 1: That I will Okay, back to the personal story. So

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Speaker 1: listeners of Empire on Blood know that the podcast focuses

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Speaker 1: on a man who we learn has been wrongfully convicted.

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Speaker 1: A Meal came to this story with a not dissimilar experience.

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Speaker 1: I want a meal to talk about that for a

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Speaker 1: minute because it kind of explains his understanding of the project.

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Speaker 4: I'm turning nineteen, I'm thinking I'm about to go to

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Speaker 4: get an athletic scholarship, go to party with my friends,

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Speaker 4: and on our way back from the party, we celebrate

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Speaker 4: it and we get pulled over and we're like, all right, cool,

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Speaker 4: that's a no problem. We're not doing nothing. He he

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Speaker 4: was going to officeer.

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Speaker 2: Id, God gives Driva gives his ID. You guys good.

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Speaker 2: You know intense.

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Speaker 4: I think every time you get stopped as an African American,

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Speaker 4: it's a it's like a life changing situation.

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Speaker 2: As about that.

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Speaker 4: It doesn't ma what's happening, it's about what is going

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Speaker 4: to happen. We don't know how you're going to treat us.

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Speaker 4: So it was intense, but we felt very secure that

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Speaker 4: we didn't do nothing. Coming from the party. The officers

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Speaker 4: affirmed that when it gave us back an idea, go ahead,

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Speaker 4: just go.

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Speaker 2: So we go back to listening to our music.

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Speaker 4: You know, because we still we after partying, we're still excited.

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Speaker 4: And my boy caught us, looks in the mirror and

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Speaker 4: he looks at me, he says, yo, Hollywood because my

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Speaker 4: friends used to call me Hollywood. He's like, Yo, Hollywood,

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Speaker 4: I think that's the same car that stopped us. Following us. Man,

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Speaker 4: you got to mind. You gotta remember. This is like

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Speaker 4: seven to ten minutes after they stopped us, and I

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Speaker 4: was like, Yo, we're in trouble. They drove maybe three

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Speaker 4: more blocks, pulled us over. Yeah, we want to check

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Speaker 4: y'all again. We sat on the corner and the and

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Speaker 4: they put handcuffs. Almost then they came back and said,

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Speaker 4: you know what, we're arresting y'all, wresting.

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Speaker 2: You for what?

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Speaker 4: Shut up getting the car. We're like, nah, that's this

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Speaker 4: when we was inside of the holding pins. So the

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Speaker 4: whole time we're like, what's the charge? Not stopping for?

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Speaker 4: Like you know, we didn't even know. Then they call

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Speaker 4: us out, Yo. You know, you guys are being arrested

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Speaker 4: for the possession of two firearms. The first thing when

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Speaker 4: they said that, what we did is we looked at

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Speaker 4: each other.

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Speaker 1: Is that where you go back to film?

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Speaker 4: No, we get acquitted of our charges, you know, all

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Speaker 4: six of us really yep, all all beat the case

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Speaker 4: and we leave, you know, And I'm like, yo, this

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Speaker 4: I gotta tell my story. And I decided, y'all, I'm

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Speaker 4: not going to act anymore until I figure out the story.

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Speaker 2: I thought I was going to sell it. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I felt like I got heat.

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Speaker 1: Yo.

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Speaker 4: This shit fied like yo, six black kids running around

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Speaker 4: doing you know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: Like everybody.

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Speaker 1: So Emil pulls an ian who wasn't in that car

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Speaker 1: and a few others and they write a pilot based

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Speaker 1: on what happened. They call it Up North, and they

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Speaker 1: film it and then they submitted to a festival called

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Speaker 1: Series Fest, which is a prestigious festival for TV pilots,

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Speaker 1: and they run the table. They win six awards, all

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Speaker 1: the big ones.

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Speaker 4: I hold up my award and I say, yo, this

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Speaker 4: award is dedicated to all the people to call the

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Speaker 4: police on me while I was just trying to make

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Speaker 4: money to feed my family. And I say, Biggie's whole thing.

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Speaker 4: He ends the whole thing. It's all good, baby, baby.

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Speaker 4: The whole crowd went crazy.

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Speaker 2: Bro. It was crazy.

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Speaker 1: And then Blumhouse, that's the production company, calls and says, basically,

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Speaker 1: we want to find something for you to write, and

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Speaker 1: then they send a meal. The podcast Empire on Blood.

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Speaker 4: I don't even know, to be honest, if I even

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Speaker 4: listen to it, like the whole other shit. I was like,

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Speaker 4: I was so captivated. I was like I'm in like

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Speaker 4: you know what I'm saying, and Ian's like, you heard

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Speaker 4: this shit?

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Speaker 1: So what was your first impression of col?

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Speaker 5: First impression of Col? I felt a lot of connectivity

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Speaker 5: with Calen and Mill like we visited your neighborhood a

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Speaker 5: bunch of times and met a lot of personalities.

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Speaker 1: And maybe I should say that I own a bar

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Speaker 1: in my neighborhood, Flatbush, Brooklyn, and that brings a certain

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Speaker 1: kind of popularity.

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Speaker 5: But it's almost like you're kind of like the mayor

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Speaker 5: of your You're like the mayor of the town when

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Speaker 5: you go there, and everyone sort of orbits around this

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Speaker 5: personality that you have. And it's the same feeling with

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Speaker 5: cal Like you could tell you he just has that

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Speaker 5: kind of sort of dynamic, sort of captivating way of

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Speaker 5: saying things, way of expressing things that kind of you

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Speaker 5: can tell why people would be drawn to him and

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Speaker 5: just to and see how somebody like that could be

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Speaker 5: taken so low and and have to fight and have

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Speaker 5: to use all that magnetic personality and grit and everything

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Speaker 5: else to get out of a situation. Just felt a lot,

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Speaker 5: felt very connected.

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Speaker 2: He said, yo, And I said, Yo, they Disney Railroad

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Speaker 2: in them. Yo. They doing the bullshit too. He said,

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Speaker 2: what time you in? Twenty three minutes?

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Speaker 1: But that wasn't all that than me a thought as

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Speaker 1: he listened, I said.

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Speaker 4: Yo, honed man, fuck that Cal did this shit, man,

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Speaker 4: And that's when I knew you had That's when I

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Speaker 4: knew you had a story because I was like, it

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Speaker 4: was so conflicting, right cause it's like, it's the real

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Speaker 4: evidence that you're like this some bullshit. But when you

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Speaker 4: start hearing Cal talking like yo, he too like he

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Speaker 4: too smooth, though he seemed too like So twenty three minutes,

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Speaker 4: I said he was not guilty. Forty seven I said

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Speaker 4: he guilty. By the time I go to sleep, I

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Speaker 4: wake up, I said, man, I don't know. I got

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Speaker 4: to listen episode two.

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Speaker 2: Man.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for a long time. For a long time, I

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Speaker 1: didn't know which way to go.

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Speaker 4: It's just like you and and and it and it

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Speaker 4: played it played authentically.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 1: Did Cal do it?

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Speaker 2: I don't think so. Yeah, I don't think so. I

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Speaker 2: left it. I left the series like.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, h I don't think so either.

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Speaker 1: When you write, do you guys think of a particular

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Speaker 1: actor doing the wrong.

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Speaker 2: I think Ian did a little bit right.

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Speaker 5: It really varies. I do always want to hear a

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Speaker 5: certain voice. But like, for instance, when we wrote Steve Fishman,

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Speaker 5: we had talked to you a lot, right, So I

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Speaker 5: heard Steve Fisherman, right, So that's what I heard for

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Speaker 5: cal like I think, I think as I recall we had,

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Speaker 5: I don't.

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Speaker 2: Want to say it.

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Speaker 5: Actually, I'm not gonna say it because that's that's only

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Speaker 5: gonna hurt us when we cast it. Whoever you are

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Speaker 5: out there, it was you.

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Speaker 1: Exactly I was. You know, my character was touchy. I

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Speaker 1: remember going to lunch with you guys, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm talking and I'm talking and I really have no idea, frankly,

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Speaker 1: if you guys are listening or not, and then I

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Speaker 1: end up a drunk in the script. What the hell?

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Speaker 1: What the hell?

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Speaker 2: I don't think if you go and you wait classify

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Speaker 2: as a drunk. I think I think that is more.

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Speaker 4: Of a a relief to have a drink more than

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Speaker 4: being a drunk.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because I do own the bar, so I always

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Speaker 1: wondered about that and now I know in the script

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Speaker 1: you guys do make him fine in prison? Yeah, certainly

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Speaker 1: capable of violence. Tell me about that decision. I'm referring

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Speaker 1: to a scene in the prison library, Cal has hidden

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Speaker 1: a razor blade in his mouth. That's all I'll say.

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Speaker 4: We wanted to maintain the story of the podcast that

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Speaker 4: listeners can listen to and the experience of being like,

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Speaker 4: can he.

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Speaker 2: Did he.

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Speaker 4: Because that's a big thing in our society, right, like

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Speaker 4: are you guilty for what you've done in who you are?

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Speaker 4: Or are you guilty because of the crime. So as

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Speaker 4: right is, We're like, how do we show that he

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Speaker 4: could be this violent guy? He could have done this,

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Speaker 4: he's capable of doing this? Is are we trying capability

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Speaker 4: and previous behavior or are we going back to.

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Speaker 2: Trying the crime.

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Speaker 4: So we wanted to show him be violent, show that

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Speaker 4: he can do this, and then take you from that

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Speaker 4: and say, but did he do this?

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Speaker 5: Well, I remember too, it was it was we wanted

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Speaker 5: to be right on that line of like you could

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Speaker 5: think he did it, you could think he didn't do it.

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Speaker 5: If there was a debate in every you know, living

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Speaker 5: room after watching it, that they would you know, half

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Speaker 5: would be on one side and half would be on

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Speaker 5: the other. And when we when we wrote the pilot,

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Speaker 5: I don't think at the beginning we had him be violent,

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Speaker 5: but when we when we when we got to the

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Speaker 5: end of the first or second draft, the feeling was

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Speaker 5: like we had done almost too good of a job

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Speaker 5: of making cow sympathetic, you know, because the way that

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Speaker 5: it's set up of just you know the fact that

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Speaker 5: he's behind bars and running this campaign and he somehow

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Speaker 5: grabs Steve Fishman's attention and it's just it's it's already

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Speaker 5: like you're.

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Speaker 1: Rooting for him.

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Speaker 5: But it was almost like you're rooting for him too

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Speaker 5: much now, like we needed something to balance the scales,

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Speaker 5: to make you remember but hey, you know, he actually

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Speaker 5: was this guy mm hmm.

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Speaker 1: And he was a crack dealer.

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Speaker 5: He was, yeah, yeah, had to be.

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Speaker 4: Ain't no way he was selling doing that. I'm from

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Speaker 4: that community. I already know what to take you doing

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Speaker 4: it at that high level. You ain't just a nice guy.

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Speaker 4: You ain't just strong, a good looking and nothing. They

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Speaker 4: come down to doing it. When you think about what

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Speaker 4: Cal is doing, right, we might painted a picture to

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Speaker 4: be like Cal is this horrible person, but when you

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Speaker 4: think of his upbringing, Caribbean tied family, come in here,

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Speaker 4: doesn't have much stuff. It's not highly educated. He That's

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Speaker 4: why people you see, it's going to be a people

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Speaker 4: who hate him and people who you love him. Cal

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Speaker 4: has like you almost course they're like Calvinists.

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Speaker 2: You understand what I'm saying.

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Speaker 4: They're like really Calvinists because he's still providing.

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Speaker 2: Yo, bro here yo this and that.

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Speaker 4: You know you you talk to some people about cal

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Speaker 4: even and as we as you listen to Empire on Blood, Hey,

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Speaker 4: let me tell you about this.

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Speaker 2: Oh shit cowboy. Hey, they life.

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Speaker 4: Lights up because they remember being that person that cow is.

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Speaker 6: Yo.

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Speaker 4: Yeah broah this put that sweat on. Go over here

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Speaker 4: and put the get the foolers go. You understand what

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Speaker 4: I'm saying. So I always said that to Ian like man,

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Speaker 4: I understand they saying give this person drugs.

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Speaker 2: It hurt them.

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Speaker 4: But guess when you can't eat, when you can't provide

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Speaker 4: opportunity for yourself, when you have nothing, this makes a

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Speaker 4: way for something for some people. And that once again

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Speaker 4: I'm not I haven't said whether it's right or wrong.

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Speaker 4: I'm just giving a perspective of like, hey, come and

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Speaker 4: listen and experience the story that is gonna have you considering.

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Speaker 2: Damn, not only did you do it? But is he?

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Speaker 4: Is he writing? What is he?

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Speaker 2: What he's doing?

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Speaker 4: Tell me about Twight man, It's it's interesting with Dwight

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Speaker 4: because the White might be my favorite character.

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Speaker 2: Bro.

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Speaker 4: Really, yeah, I'm telling you because once again, like it

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Speaker 4: goes between that young youthful I'm following Cal, I'm doing this,

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Speaker 4: I'm doing that. I'm kind of you know, the the

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Speaker 4: mentee and then turn like adversary and did he really?

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Speaker 4: Do you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: Like it's it's just like do you think da White

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Speaker 2: did it? Yes? You do? You do? See if you do?

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Speaker 2: I do you do? Okay, gotcha you do?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 4: And I know that's interesting because I said I don't

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Speaker 4: think Cal did it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's what that's what's interesting about this story.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you guys really inhabit the characters when you

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Speaker 1: do when you write, yeah, absolutely, who do you identify with?

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Speaker 2: Ian?

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Speaker 5: Who do I identify with? I mean, I I think

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Speaker 5: I think in this case it kind of felt like

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Speaker 5: I was I was like you and and a mill

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Speaker 5: was Cal Like that was kind of like our dynamic

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Speaker 5: as we were like talking back and forth, like, oh,

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Speaker 5: so I think Steve would do this and you would

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Speaker 5: I think Cal would do this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, that's true.

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Speaker 5: I think it was. I think it's just similar like

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Speaker 5: I go into an ivy league and being very scholastic,

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Speaker 5: I guess, and then I mean a mil and we

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Speaker 5: start writing this really gritty inner city stuff. Like it

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Speaker 5: was kind of like I felt like I was a

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Speaker 5: little bit like the the tourists visiting, you know, and

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Speaker 5: I felt like there's a lot of similarities there to

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Speaker 5: what it was like for you right entering into a

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Speaker 5: world that you didn't know know about, and like I

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Speaker 5: think you said it was like a different different country

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Speaker 5: when you when you read his Cow's File, and I

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Speaker 5: felt the same way, Like when I first visited your neighborhood.

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Speaker 5: It was like we talk about the urban jungle and

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Speaker 5: how like it just like a real jungle. It's like

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Speaker 5: you can kind of look at it from afar and

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Speaker 5: you can't really see but if you actually look in

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Speaker 5: underneath the canopy, like on inside of it, like it's

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00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:40,960
Speaker 5: it's just like a totally different world, you know.

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Speaker 2: I mean I felt very close to Cal his leadership.

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Speaker 4: His he was He's a great like ortor like he

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00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:58,720
Speaker 4: can speak so well and at times you don't know

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Speaker 4: if he's selling or being genuine. And I think there's

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Speaker 4: a piece of him that is authentically being genuine, and

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Speaker 4: there's a piece of him that is still selling and

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Speaker 4: moving and moving people. And that's the beauty of it, right,

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Speaker 4: Like like what is he what is he kind of

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Speaker 4: doing it?

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Speaker 2: I really Uh, that really resonated with me, like because

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Speaker 2: people like, oh are you selling? Are you doing this?

349
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Speaker 2: Like are you really do you feel that way? You not?

350
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Speaker 2: You know what I mean?

351
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Speaker 1: Because it's like that's the way you are.

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Speaker 4: I don't feel like that. I think people think that

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Speaker 4: about me. Yeah, I don't want nothing from nobody, Like

354
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Speaker 4: I'm giving everything. I got to be honest with you,

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Speaker 4: like you know what I mean. So I'm like, if

356
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Speaker 4: i'm selling, you tell me what I'm what I'm getting,

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Speaker 4: I don't know because I'm out here just giving what

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Speaker 4: I you know what I'm saying. So it's like, but

359
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Speaker 4: I still feel like people like, hoh, they purse like

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Speaker 4: you know.

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Speaker 6: What I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, yo, hold on, he's too you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean, So tell me, why was why your favorite?

364
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Speaker 4: I have a friend Robbie who you met as well,

365
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:08,720
Speaker 4: who we visited in prison, And there's these people who

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00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:14,920
Speaker 4: just become like a victim of the environment. And though

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00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,480
Speaker 4: Dwhite could be everything that you guys believe him to be,

368
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Speaker 4: and I know that he is, whether guilty or not,

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Speaker 4: but it's like it's at the hands of this environment

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Speaker 4: of like kind of you know, molding him into this person,

371
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Speaker 4: and he becomes this person through this game and different things,

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Speaker 4: and it's like man circumstances, right. I think that's the

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Speaker 4: beauty of the community, is like it's like the circumstances

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Speaker 4: of like, how did you end up where you are?

375
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Speaker 2: And is it your fault? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: And I mean the thing I loved it in is

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Speaker 1: he's got this very powerful relationship with Cal. Yeah, it's

378
00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,880
Speaker 1: not clear Cal has a powerful relationship, Yeah, for sure.

379
00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,280
Speaker 1: And so you got that I don't know, younger brother,

380
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:05,119
Speaker 1: big brother, dynamic, father son, dynamic. And you know, the

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00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,640
Speaker 1: way Dwight tells it, it's all about it's a very

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Speaker 1: personal betrayal, very personal.

383
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:15,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

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00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,240
Speaker 5: I mean, I think that's at the center of Cal

385
00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:22,240
Speaker 5: and Dwight, right, is that they have very different stories

386
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,520
Speaker 5: in terms of the way things happened between them. And

387
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Speaker 5: I think that's kind of at the center of the story,

388
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:33,320
Speaker 5: is those two deferring perspectives and sort of the question

389
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:38,240
Speaker 5: that's asked by that deferring perspective in terms of is

390
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:44,240
Speaker 5: cal actually the good guy or or was he somebody

391
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:48,080
Speaker 5: who really was vicious enough to take this person that

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00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 5: he cared for for so long and then turn around

393
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:57,080
Speaker 5: and you know, become become his worst nightmare and have

394
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Speaker 5: it out for him and put Dwight in a position

395
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 5: where Dwight felt so threatened that you know, he would

396
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:10,880
Speaker 5: do anything to survive that. That was a very interesting question, you.

397
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Speaker 1: Know, And so what did you think of the the

398
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:26,359
Speaker 1: criminal justice system? So Turtleman amazing character and Father Frank

399
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:27,120
Speaker 1: I said.

400
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 4: That's an Emmy winning award waiting for somebody like the Turtleman.

401
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:36,239
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And it's interesting what you said before, because in

402
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 1: a sense, everybody's dealing.

403
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:38,920
Speaker 2: With the same facts.

404
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:43,919
Speaker 1: Or you know, there's the crime, the brothers are dead.

405
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 1: We got these witnesses who are saying this, but they're

406
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,359
Speaker 1: really different views on how you get to that moment.

407
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 1: And so what do you end up thinking about Turtleman?

408
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 1: Because in his own telling. Everybody gets to tell their

409
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 1: own story in this. You know, he's a crusader for justice,

410
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 1: but is it justice he does.

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00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:15,160
Speaker 5: I just think when you talk about Turtleman, you're talking

412
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 5: about somebody who is exemplary in terms of like the

413
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 5: way that system got created, right, somebody who actively, I think,

414
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 5: had an edict and a prejudice to put people away

415
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:37,880
Speaker 5: to quote clean up the streets or whatever you want

416
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:43,639
Speaker 5: to call it, and corners were cut, and I you know,

417
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 5: I think there's been a record, there's been some reckoning,

418
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 5: but like, yeah, I think that he is very much

419
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:56,159
Speaker 5: an example of all that has been wrong with the

420
00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:00,239
Speaker 5: way America has treated some of its citizens and the

421
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 5: prejudices of the system that have become sort of systematically normalized.

422
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 1: Right.

423
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,439
Speaker 5: There is two Americas in the judicial system, you know.

424
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 5: And I think that's what's so great about the story.

425
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 5: Like I was saying before, it's like you can extrapolate

426
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:19,880
Speaker 5: so many different aspects of it. And that's another one

427
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 5: where like I think Cal's story and the way that

428
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 5: he was treated as very much emblematic of how a

429
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,880
Speaker 5: lot of kids in the inner city have been treated

430
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:33,440
Speaker 5: where they've been guilty and until proven innocent.

431
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, Emil, yes, Sir, Father Frank. So in the podcast,

432
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 1: in real life, Cal is in prison for the killing

433
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: of these two brothers. Dwight is in prison for the

434
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:54,159
Speaker 1: murder of somebody else actually in and around that same corner.

435
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:59,439
Speaker 1: Because Dwight kind of in effect takes over once Cal's gone,

436
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,159
Speaker 1: they end up in the same prison. Never should have

437
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:10,679
Speaker 1: happened because, as we know, Dwight testifies against Cal and

438
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 1: kind of the reason he goes to prison is Dwight.

439
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 1: So these guys, you have the snitch, the guy who

440
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 1: turns cooperator, and the guy who's put away because of that.

441
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 2: It's still on the main line. That's the crazy part.

442
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: And there they meet and Dwight suddenly changes changes direction

443
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 1: and he says, no, you know I did it, and

444
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 1: he's about to go help try to help Cal get

445
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 1: out of prison. Enter father Frank. What did you think

446
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 1: of Father Frank.

447
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 4: It's interesting because I've always felt like Callender White maybe

448
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 4: feel different about all of the different characters, is right.

449
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 2: It almost to me was like a tugger war of like.

450
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 4: When you believe them and you are on this side

451
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 4: and everyone's position you like, it makes you change your

452
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 4: position on everybody. You're like, oh shit, like even Turtleman,

453
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 4: because he could be like heroic.

454
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 1: I mean, what's amazing is is Father Frank wakes up.

455
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:34,959
Speaker 1: He says Dwight is confessing, and he says, bullshit, there's

456
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: no way he's confessing to a murder.

457
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:40,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know that.

458
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 1: So Father Frank goes in and says, I gotta get

459
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 1: him to unconfess. And there's something for me about that

460
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 1: certainty that he has before even he knows the facts.

461
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 1: Fascinating And you know you see that in especially in

462
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 1: that era. Listen, there's two thousand murders year and the

463
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 1: citizens are crazy and they want these guys off the street.

464
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 2: And he didn't see the murder.

465
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 4: No, So why was he so certain to be like no,

466
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 4: I got to get him not to unconfessed?

467
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 2: Like what was what was? What was the power?

468
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 6: Was?

469
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 4: Where was that shrimp coming from? Was it the fact

470
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 4: that he knew Cal did it? Because he doesn't know

471
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 4: anything about the murder, and that's that he just knows

472
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 4: who Cal is? You know, h d White confessingt is

473
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 4: what made me. His willingness to confess is what made

474
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 4: me believe Cal is innocent. It didn't make me believe

475
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 4: Dwhight did it. I think when you come from our

476
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,640
Speaker 4: community and you have a reputation, if you could come

477
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 4: and do some good. Because because technically Dwight lost every

478
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 4: his reputation, then he runs into cal he's going to

479
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,439
Speaker 4: be in jail anyway.

480
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: One last question for you, guys, I got one last.

481
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 2: Question for you too.

482
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,120
Speaker 1: Who should play Steve Fishman?

483
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 5: We talked about this a lot. Yeah, yeah, I've got

484
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 5: to refer to my previous answer and say, for all

485
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 5: the amazing actors out there, it's all of you.

486
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 6: It's all of you.

487
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: All right, Well, let's say, what characteristics are you looking

488
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 1: for in this actor?

489
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 6: Good looks, incredible good looks, somebody who can handle his drink.

490
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 6: You know, he's got to be an alcoholic preferably, you know,

491
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 6: I'm just kidding. No, I felt like there was like

492
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 6: a comedic timing too, especially I mean, I think you're

493
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 6: very funny in person, but especially in the story. Like

494
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 6: there's like a comedic energy to Steve that I feel

495
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 6: like is really important. So I would be looking at

496
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 6: actors who have that sort of comedic I M.

497
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: That's interesting, Thank you. Okay, what's your question for me?

498
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 4: The last question after you is after all this work

499
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 4: that you've done and everything, like when you look back

500
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 4: at it, like like when you reflect on it, like

501
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 4: what's your feeling of it all?

502
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad it's over. It was a lot of work.

503
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 1: It was a long time. Shout out to the people

504
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: in my life. Ward me talk about it. For in

505
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: Cal's case, seven years and in the case of the Burden,

506
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: which features a detective and other characters, four years. Yeah,

507
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: there's a lot of somebody And if I look back

508
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: and thought, like eleven years ago, what's my five year plan,

509
00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: it's not the way it turns out. I'll also say,

510
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: you know, it's brought interesting people in my life, you guys.

511
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 1: And Cal has become a friend, you know, Cal over

512
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 1: to dinner and his partner for a time. She has

513
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: become close with Riha, my wife, Email is a really

514
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: good friend.

515
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 2: You know.

516
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: He was exonerated on the day my son was born,

517
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: and Rhea said, no, you gotta go to the courtroom

518
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 1: because you know I'm there. She gives birth at like

519
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 1: two or three in the morning, and his court date

520
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 1: is at night, and she says, no, no.

521
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 2: You gotta go.

522
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 1: Wow, So I I'm there for that big day. And

523
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 1: it's corny, but you know he's like reborn one the

524
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: day my son's born, and you know those things are meaningful.

525
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: And and emails. You know, part of our life in

526
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: cal is distant. He lives in Houston, but you know,

527
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: still it's a it's an interesting bond. So I am

528
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: thankful for that enrichment that this, this is all brought

529
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: me