WEBVTT - TechStuff Classic: The Problem With Ads Part Two 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:12.319 Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from iHeartRadio. Hey there, 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:15.640 and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:18.919 I'm an executive producer with iHeartRadio and how the Tech 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:21.600 are Ye. It is time for a classic episode. It's 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:25.000 time for us to conclude a conversation we started with 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:29.159 last week's classic episode. This is called The Problem with 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:32.440 Ads Part two. It originally published on May twenty fifth, 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:36.200 twenty sixteen, and Ben Bollen joined the show to talk 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:40.519 about the issues with ads because there are a lot 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:43.839 of them, and boy howdy, we just get more and 0:00:43.920 --> 0:00:46.559 more issues as time goes on. I'll touch on that 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:49.360 a little bit at the very end of this episode, 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:52.280 but yeah, I should probably ask Ben if he would 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:55.960 like to do a second go at this topic now 0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:58.279 that we're several years down the road and we have 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:02.560 yet more ways for ads to be served and exploited 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:06.640 since twenty sixteen. But let's sit back and listen to 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:12.679 this episode. Not all people who design ad blockers necessarily 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:15.880 feel great about it either. That's another element. So we've 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:18.800 got like the publishers, some of the publishers and authors 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:23.640 admitting to the use of ad blockers despite the fact 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:27.520 that their business model depends at least in part on 0:01:28.040 --> 0:01:31.759 advertising revenues. That's complicated. But then you also have ad 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:35.280 blockers who start to feel that perhaps what they're doing 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:38.680 might be more might be doing more harm than good. 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:40.160 We have an example of this. 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:44.800 Yeah, Marco Armant, who created an ad blocker for the 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:50.720 iOS store for iPhones. It was one of several ad 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:53.960 blocker apps that became available as soon as Apple allowed 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:56.640 for that in the app store. It's very popular. I 0:01:56.680 --> 0:01:58.760 got downloaded by a lot of people. Was a pay app, 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:03.240 so you had to actually purchase it, And after essentially 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:08.720 like a weekend of thinking about it, he began to 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:12.760 reconsider the fact that he had made and made available 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:15.600 this app and decided to remove it from the app 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:18.960 Store and offered refunds to anyone who had purchased it 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:21.840 up to that point. And he said the reason for 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:26.360 it was that while he thought advertising still is kind 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:30.840 of broken online or at least is not an ideal 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:35.160 experience for most people, it ultimately could really hurt small 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:39.440 businesses that really depend on that web advertising, and if 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:44.640 that avenue of revenue is gone, those businesses could go away. 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:48.600 He says, Once I start thinking about something I made 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:53.239 could literally put a person out of business. It changed 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:57.520 things for me, and I could not let that be 0:02:58.600 --> 0:02:59.920 something I had contributed. 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:01.320 Crisis of conscience. 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:04.200 Yeah, so you know he decided. 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:04.400 Uh. 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:06.400 He says this specifically says, I've learned over the last 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:08.840 few crazy days that I don't feel good making one 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:13.120 and being the arbiter of what's blocked making one, being 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:16.399 an ad blocker. Ad blockers come with an important asterisk. 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:19.640 While they do benefit a ton of people in major ways, 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:22.560 they also hurt some, including many who don't deserve the hit. 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:28.320 And there's an article in Wired, which again Wired is 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:30.080 one of those companies that says, hey, we noticed you're 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:33.480 watching using an ad blocker. Would you consider possibly turning 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:34.560 it off while you're here? 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:37.440 You can still visit our website. I mean, what are 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:40.600 we Forbes? Yeah yeah, yeah, sorry, I'm going to tone 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:41.320 down the snart. 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:43.800 No, but We're gonna get back to Forbes, say, because 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:47.400 I gotta I gotta talk about that. So so Wired, 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:50.160 you know, they say, like, this is how we make money. 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:52.720 You can police consider turning it off. It worked for me. 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:55.560 I turned it off because the ads I come across 0:03:55.600 --> 0:04:00.520 on Wired don't tend to be obnoxious or intrusive or 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:05.560 take away my experience. They don't completely cloud my view 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:09.560 of whatever it is I'm looking at. They are responsible 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:14.680 with their advertising and I respect that. So anyway, Wired 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:18.440 has this article about Arment and his experience, and one 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:20.120 of the things they point out is that ad blockers 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:25.239 are too blunt of an instrument, meaning they punish everyone equally. 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:30.960 They punish the people who are running tons of ads 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:33.720 on their page with very little content. I'm sure you've 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:35.919 come across one of those in the past where you're like, 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:40.159 is there anything here that's not an ad? They punish 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:44.520 those where you would argue, there's very little value for 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:49.000 your visit. But they also punish the upstanding folks who 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:52.320 are just they're doing their best to make a living 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:55.440 doing what they love, but they find it very difficult 0:04:55.440 --> 0:05:01.360 because of this hit they're taking with ad revenue. So yeah, 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:04.039 very interesting. Now to get back to Forbes. Forbes has 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:06.000 this approach where if they detect an ad blocker, they 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:08.479 say turn it off or you're not going any further right, right, 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:11.200 And they even say, hey, if you turn it off, 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:13.920 you can have thirty days to experience the ad light 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:17.960 experience with Forbes, and I thought, you know what, that's fair. 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:20.760 I will I will see what this AD light experience is. 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:22.760 Maybe it's gonna be like wired, and I'm gonna have 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:26.240 a pleasant experience. I turn off my AD blugger, I 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:29.919 go on in and the first thing that happens is 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:36.320 a float over pop up window playing video automatically scrolls 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:39.080 over what I'm trying to read. And I think this 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:42.640 is AD light. What does AD heavy look like? 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:45.080 Add heavy? They send someone to. 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:48.520 Your house and they're just like, hey, I couldn't help, 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:50.599 but notice you don't have all rugs over here. 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:54.560 We like to sell you some rugs, and we're right outside. 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:57.600 It's only gonna take like forty five minutes to an 0:05:57.600 --> 0:05:59.480 hour for me to tell you about all these rugs. 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:00.440 And the sound. 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:04.159 Yeah, you close the door and all your ears listen. 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:05.840 You close the door, but I'm still here and I'm 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:07.600 gonna talk about the rugs through your. 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:10.960 Door for the next forty five minutes. You can't walk 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:11.840 this ad. 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:13.799 I mean it's good. It's it's a good point though, 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:18.200 because if the AD light experience is still intrusive, Yeah, 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:21.880 then what is the difference is it? Again? A hierarchy 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:22.479 of types. 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:24.760 Yeah, and that's a good question that I don't know 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:29.400 the answer to. I mean, it's and I know I'm 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:33.320 slamming Forbes a bit with this discussion, but I under again, 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:35.920 I understand the position they're in. It's not like I 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:40.080 don't appreciate that, of course I do. I just feel 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:45.800 like the whole approach to ads online has been broken 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:49.440 since day one. And one of the things I keep 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:54.479 hoping for is that the ad block issue will force companies, 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:59.280 including really advertising companies, into coming up with ways where 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:05.479 advertising works. Not that we're advertising sneaks in that's not working. No, 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:08.599 that just creates more resentment. You've got to find a 0:07:08.640 --> 0:07:11.320 way to make it work, or you have to find 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:13.280 a different way to make money. So you could go 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:16.640 the route of like a paywall that some sites have 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:19.640 gone to, where you have to pay to get access 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:23.480 to the full site, or you could go with something 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:27.720 like a Patreon approach, where you develop a loyal audience 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:30.680 and then you say, hey, I love making this stuff 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:33.680 for you. I hope you love the stuff that I'm making. 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:36.400 It's kind of an NPR model, right, Help me make 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:39.120 the stuff you love by giving me a little bit 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:42.160 of money each month. That will cover my costs and 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:43.600 I can keep doing. 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:45.240 This and I can give you some perks. 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:47.640 Yeah, and there's somewhere it will be perks as well. 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:52.120 And honestly, I'm a Patreon for like three or four 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:57.200 different things recurring monthly, and in every case I don't 0:07:57.200 --> 0:07:59.960 care about the perks. The perks were not the reason 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.520 why I did it. I did it because I appreciated 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:05.880 and respected the content I was getting and I wanted 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:08.800 to support the stuff I love. And I'm in a 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:11.520 position where I can afford to do that. Obviously, not 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:13.800 everyone is, and in fact, there's some people out there. 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:17.560 Tom Merritt, great example. Tom Merritt's stand up guy does 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:23.080 the daily tech news show Amazing Program, and he says, look, 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:26.440 I get it. Some of you. You know your every 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:30.360 dollar counts, and I totally understand that, and I appreciate 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:32.960 that you listen to so thank you. You are just 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:35.520 as important to me. But for people who can afford 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:38.280 to maybe throw a dollar or five dollars a month 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:43.080 to help me produce the show, do that. And the 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:45.480 more people who do, the more shows I can produce. 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:47.520 I can go to six days a week, which is 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:48.440 what he's trying to do right now. 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:51.800 Cooler stuff too. You have a higher production value, You 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:53.439 get what you. 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:56.880 Pay for exactly. And again, it keeps the show ad free, 0:08:57.360 --> 0:09:00.400 so you know, he might have a sponsor for an 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:03.120 episode or two, but generally speaking, the shows are pretty 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:08.400 much had free, which is very refreshing compared to some 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:12.200 other shows online where you're like, they've been talking about 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:13.200 this ad for three minutes. 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:17.360 Do you remember how? And this goes to other video 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:20.760 as well, that's not necessarily personality driven. Do you remember 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:25.240 the uproar that Hulu created when people would pay for 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:29.160 a subscription what was it, nine, ten dollars whatever? Pay 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:33.640 for a subscription that also still had ads in the video? 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:37.760 Come yeah? People were saying, why am I paying to 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:39.840 watch these to watch these ads? I thought that the 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:42.960 paying was so that I wouldn't have to watch ads anymore. 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:47.120 Hulu also has the AD blocker detector, so that says, like, 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:50.360 you have an AD blocker on, you want to watch 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:51.800 an episode, turn it off. 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:56.200 We are unable to provide the ad viewing experience due 0:09:56.200 --> 0:09:58.840 to your applock. You can wait them out, though, you 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:03.360 could play the the poker game with them. 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:07.040 The screen long enough and it starts to play. Yes, 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:07.960 does it really? 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:10.480 Yeah, if you just leave it alone long enough because 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:12.480 I'm busy, I would have it on in the background 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:13.239 or something. 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:15.520 You just like suddenly you just hear like an episode 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:17.120 all of. 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:22.760 A sudden, And to be honest, it brightened me and 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:28.600 my cat. It's it's strange though, when we see these 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:33.240 different strategies used to address targeted advertising. I have a 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:37.520 question for you guarding this. So one of the big 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:44.840 concerns of privacy advocates is that targeted advertising takes this user, 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:50.480 this user generated data, and builds a profile off of 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:54.800 that we have in the past, or you have specifically 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:59.520 on tex stuff explored the search bubble, that past results 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:02.880 predict what you were shown when you ask a question, 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:07.400 and yeah, it's supposed to be stuff that rather than 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:11.559 the objective truth. The more of a profile you build, 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:14.200 the more likely that you're going to find it's going 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:16.040 to give you stuff that it thinks you like. 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:20.040 It's essentially a stepping stone to the semantic web, where 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:23.000 the web anticipates what you want and gives you your 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:27.120 version of what it is you want. The downside of 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:29.960 that being that you could create an Internet version of 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:32.439 the Echo chamber and you only see the stuff that 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:34.400 reinforces what you already think. 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:38.560 Absolutely, and I think that this is I think the 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:44.559 dangerous thing about targeted advertising like that is especially because 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:48.479 it is automated, right, and it's based on this precedent set. 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:54.920 What can happen is that eventually, through some error in 0:11:54.960 --> 0:12:00.400 the code, through some misinterpreted series of visits to some 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:06.160 other website, it could just decide that Jonathan Strickland must 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:11.600 like diapers, and because he hasn't bought them yet, is 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:16.960 only an indication that Jonathan Strickland needs more advertisements for 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:20.680 diapers until he gets it. And that that can happen, 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:24.840 That can happen to people. So I you know, one 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:28.520 of the most I think he used this example before, 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:32.040 one of the most in my mind, egregious examples of 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:35.839 how to do targeted advertising in the worst possible way is. 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:39.160 Facebook, Ben and I will be back to talk more 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:52.520 about the perils of advertising after this quick break. Facebook. 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:54.319 The way it works is that you'll end up seeing 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:58.160 stuff and started into your feed that can end up 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:01.720 being kind of creepy, especially like you said, if it's 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:04.319 something that pops up where it's related to a search 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:06.440 that you did when you weren't even part of Facebook 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:11.400 in the first place. Yeah, you get these promoted entries 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:13.520 into your feed that look like the same sort of 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:16.480 stuff that a friend might have left, but it wasn't 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:18.480 left by any of your friends. It was just left 0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:22.040 by your friends at Facebook and whatever advertising agency they're 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:24.079 working with. And then of course there's all this stuff 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:26.160 that appears in the right rail that looks like it's 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:32.200 news articles, but it's not. It's more advertising. And in fact, 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:34.800 a lot of the clickbait stuff that shows up on Facebook. 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:36.880 Not that this is Facebook's fault, but a lot of 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:41.040 the clickbait stuff that ends up getting shared to Facebook 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:43.640 and then re shared by tons of people who aren't 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:49.720 necessarily thinking critically, is really just thinly veiled advertorial content, right, 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:54.640 or it links to a site that has ridiculous advertising 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:57.080 space on it and just a tiny bit of content. 0:13:57.200 --> 0:14:01.120 And also this goes to a bigger thing. This is 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:06.320 the first instance in human civilization of the capability to 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:10.920 block advertisement. Right. So it's something that we forget. We 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:15.120 tried a very a daunting and ambitious task on stuff 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:18.720 they don't want you to know. My co hosts Matt 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:22.640 and Nola and I said, you know what, let's pick 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:27.440 a day and let's count every advertisement we see from 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:31.640 waking to sleep. None of us could do it successfully 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:36.160 because our day to day physical lives are so embedded 0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:39.160 with advertising already. To your point, yeah, you know, and 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:42.280 it makes me wonder, what if there were some sort 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:46.280 of physical analog to that, would people do it? I 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:49.440 think the answer is, of course, because people want to 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:54.000 feel like they're not being continually pitched to. 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:56.880 Right, and in fact we've you know, this kind of 0:14:56.880 --> 0:15:00.320 brings us the whole idea about privacy and using an 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:04.640 ad blocker to protect yourself, and then the counter two 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:08.200 ad blockers, where you get the ad blocker detectors. Essentially, 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:10.440 what they're detecting, by the way, is they're just saying 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:13.600 was the ad served to the browser? And if the 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:16.640 answer is no, then the assumption is the person has 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:21.200 an ad blocker program running on their machine. That leads 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:25.400 us to the discussion in Europe where there is this 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:31.200 ongoing battle about whether or not ad blocker detectors are 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:38.240 in fact illegal or at least violating a policy about privacy. 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:45.520 And it's a pretty interesting and weird kind of story. 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:50.040 So there's a guy named Alexander Hant who has put 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:55.040 forth this argument saying that because a website is capable 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:58.120 of telling you have an ad blocker on it, that 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:04.080 violates your sense of privacy. Therefore is illegal to have 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:11.280 an ad blocker detector on a service, and ad blockers 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:14.640 should not be punished or there should not be this 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:19.760 detection system. And it was because of a pretty broad 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:27.880 reading of the European privacy law, which says that a 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:32.040 company cannot record information about you without your consent right, 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:34.960 and the argument was that is the ad blocker is 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:39.040 the detection of that, is that actually recording information about 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:42.600 a person? Because if so, then there should first pop 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:46.520 up a little message saying this website wants to find 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:49.680 out if you're using an ad blocker do you allow 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:54.320 it to do so? And it gets really to a 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:57.480 question of practicality, like does the Internet work in such 0:16:57.480 --> 0:17:02.560 a way that it would be possible to implement a 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:06.760 policy that's akin to that or would it just mean 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:10.080 that we have to rethink the way these laws are 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:12.840 framed because they don't take into account the way the 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:17.680 Internet works, and because of that they are passing laws 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:24.720 that are counterproductive or in some cases just would never work, 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:27.800 they'd be unenforceable, and they would be they would just 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:33.720 cause a massive mess. And so that's an ongoing discussion 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:36.880 as we're recording this podcast that has not been decided yet, 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:40.080 but there are arguments on both sides about whether or 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:44.840 not these ad blocker detectors are against the law or 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:47.520 if they're totally legal, and if they are legal, that 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:49.959 people can that a company can say, hey, turn your 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:55.520 ad blocker off, you vandal your visigoths trying to think 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:58.600 of trying to think of European marauders at this point, 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:04.400 you're Viking, and so it's that's an interesting thing to see. 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:04.680 Now. 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:07.560 We don't have anything like that in the US because 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:10.200 privacy is something we long since gave up on. 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:12.399 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we're still doing the song and 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:16.960 dance every so often, you know. It's it's one of 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:21.200 those we make hallmark card level statements about privacy in 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:22.160 the public sphere. 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:25.760 And I guess, I guess really the place to kind 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:29.719 of end this discussion to really the kicker. The reason 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:32.320 why it would be very difficult for me to argue 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:37.200 with any sincerity against someone's decision to use an ad 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:41.920 blocker is the safety issue. The malware issue. So earlier 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:48.200 this year there was a story about how this this 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:53.800 malware group managed to infiltrate advertising companies that served ads 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:59.080 to places like the BBC and other major outlets like 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:02.720 msn A, like The New York Times. 0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:02.879 Big Fish. 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:07.760 Yeah, these are huge outlets that are had to have 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:11.560 advertising on them, And what the malware designers had done 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:15.480 was they had injected malware into ads that were being 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:17.440 served on these so they didn't have to they didn't 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:20.760 have to hack into the New York Times or the BBC. 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:25.919 They had to hack into the actual advertising server and 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:30.040 insert some malware and disguise it really well, so it's 0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:33.159 not easy to pick out that malware gets served up 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:36.200 as if it's a legitimate ad, and they could convince 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:41.160 someone to install some code that ends up encrypting their 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:45.359 hard drive. This is called ransomware. So this is when 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:48.560 you get a message out of the blue and it says, hey, 0:19:48.600 --> 0:19:52.879 guess what, sucker, your computer's encrypted, and we've got an 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:55.680 encryption key and we'll sell it to you. So you've 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:57.320 got to pay us and we'll give you the key 0:19:57.359 --> 0:19:59.040 so that you can get back into your computer. If 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:02.000 you don't pay us. At such and such a time, 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:05.760 we will destroy your encryption key and your computer will 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:09.439 permanently be encrypted, and there's nothing you can do about it. 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:14.600 Ha ha ha. It's essentially the way the message goes and 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:18.000 and so your your computer is held hostage and unless 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:22.320 you pay for it, then you're kind of stuck. And 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:25.880 because it was it was the malware attacks were coming 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:30.720 from these major trusted outlets. That's a huge problem, right, 0:20:30.920 --> 0:20:33.119 It's not like it's not like the people were going 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:37.000 to you know, some back alley website that was already 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:38.960 got a terrible reputation. They were malware. 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:42.800 Yeah, they weren't going to like freeezannexinadderall dot biz. 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:45.160 Yeah exactly. They were going to the New York Times, 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:49.680 for goodness sakes. And so if you have an ad blocker, 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:52.719 it blocks that stuff because it identifies it as an 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:55.240 AD and you never get it, so you are safe 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:58.400 from that kind of a malware attack. So it's very 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:02.920 difficult to argue, hey, ad blockers are wrong when people 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:06.120 who don't use them are potentially going to fall victim 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:11.240 to this ransomware attack. And this was a very specific incident. 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:13.960 It's not necessarily ever going to repeat or it may 0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:16.640 not repeat on a scale as large as it did before, 0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:21.120 but it drives home that fact that ad blockers are 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:24.919 not just for people who are tired of being sold to. 0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:27.399 It's for people who are like, no, I want to 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:30.320 be able to surf the web. I'm very careful with 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:31.720 the way I surf the web. I want to make 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:34.880 sure that I don't get hit by something despite how 0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:37.680 careful I am, and I'm getting it from what I 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:41.439 thought was a trusted source. Look y'all, it's not lost 0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:44.159 on me that it is somewhat ironic for me to 0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:47.080 interrupt a conversation about the problems with ads so that 0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:49.640 we can go listen to some ads. But you got 0:21:49.640 --> 0:22:03.080 to pay the bills, y'all. Here we go. So one 0:22:03.119 --> 0:22:06.680 of the things I read about was about Forbes being 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:09.040 one of those sites that you go to Forbes dot 0:22:09.080 --> 0:22:10.480 com and you get the message, hey, you need to 0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:11.919 turn off your ad blogger if you want to have 0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:16.080 access to it. But Forbes was also victim to a 0:22:16.160 --> 0:22:19.200 ransomware attack, which means that you know, you're like, well, 0:22:19.240 --> 0:22:21.000 I want to read that thing on Forbes, but then 0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:24.240 you make yourself vulnerable to being attacked by malware. 0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:26.200 And Forbes is such great work they do. 0:22:26.400 --> 0:22:28.040 And that's the thing is that you know, we're again 0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:31.480 it sounds like we're really bashing on Forbes, but it's 0:22:31.560 --> 0:22:35.520 largely due to the problem with advertising, not the problem 0:22:35.520 --> 0:22:38.199 that Forbes wants to get paid. I totally respect that, 0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:40.560 of course, and I know I've said it multiple times, 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:42.400 but I just want to drive that home is that 0:22:42.480 --> 0:22:45.479 as someone who I make a living off this, I 0:22:45.520 --> 0:22:48.920 want to continue to do so. And part of that 0:22:48.960 --> 0:22:50.960 means that I have to be you know that my 0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:54.119 work is going up on pages that have advertising served 0:22:54.119 --> 0:22:56.360 against it, and I want those pages to do well, 0:22:56.400 --> 0:22:59.560 and I want those advertisers to do well. But it 0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:03.120 requires that we have an advertising system that works and 0:23:03.160 --> 0:23:06.119 that isn't predatory or damaging. 0:23:06.560 --> 0:23:10.040 And currently we're still trying to we as a species 0:23:10.119 --> 0:23:15.120 are still trying to find what that thing is. We're 0:23:15.280 --> 0:23:20.040 we're kind of in a pioneering wild West state right now. 0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:23.960 Yeah. Well, and it's weird because advertising has been around 0:23:23.960 --> 0:23:26.240 for ages. Ages. 0:23:26.400 --> 0:23:31.520 Some of the earliest advertising actually goes back to Greco 0:23:31.680 --> 0:23:36.280 Roman times. Did you hear about this? No? There were so, well, 0:23:36.320 --> 0:23:39.440 I might I think you know what I'm going to say, So. 0:23:40.400 --> 0:23:41.960 Are you talking about houses of ill repute? 0:23:42.160 --> 0:23:47.120 Yes, Archaeologists found that prostitutes would wear sandals with arrows 0:23:47.520 --> 0:23:51.520 imprinted in the soul of the sandal, so that they 0:23:51.560 --> 0:23:55.199 would leave a series of arrows as they walked to 0:23:55.680 --> 0:23:57.840 As you so fittingly put it, the house of ill 0:23:57.880 --> 0:23:59.680