1 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:12,319 Speaker 1: Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from iHeartRadio. Hey there, 2 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. 3 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: I'm an executive producer with iHeartRadio and how the Tech 4 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 1: are Ye. It is time for a classic episode. It's 5 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: time for us to conclude a conversation we started with 6 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:29,159 Speaker 1: last week's classic episode. This is called The Problem with 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: Ads Part two. It originally published on May twenty fifth, 8 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, and Ben Bollen joined the show to talk 9 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: about the issues with ads because there are a lot 10 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 1: of them, and boy howdy, we just get more and 11 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 1: more issues as time goes on. I'll touch on that 12 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: a little bit at the very end of this episode, 13 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: but yeah, I should probably ask Ben if he would 14 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: like to do a second go at this topic now 15 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,279 Speaker 1: that we're several years down the road and we have 16 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: yet more ways for ads to be served and exploited 17 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: since twenty sixteen. But let's sit back and listen to 18 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 1: this episode. Not all people who design ad blockers necessarily 19 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: feel great about it either. That's another element. So we've 20 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: got like the publishers, some of the publishers and authors 21 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: admitting to the use of ad blockers despite the fact 22 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: that their business model depends at least in part on 23 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,759 Speaker 1: advertising revenues. That's complicated. But then you also have ad 24 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: blockers who start to feel that perhaps what they're doing 25 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 1: might be more might be doing more harm than good. 26 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 2: We have an example of this. 27 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, Marco Armant, who created an ad blocker for the 28 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 1: iOS store for iPhones. It was one of several ad 29 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: blocker apps that became available as soon as Apple allowed 30 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: for that in the app store. It's very popular. I 31 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: got downloaded by a lot of people. Was a pay app, 32 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: so you had to actually purchase it, And after essentially 33 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: like a weekend of thinking about it, he began to 34 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: reconsider the fact that he had made and made available 35 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: this app and decided to remove it from the app 36 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: Store and offered refunds to anyone who had purchased it 37 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: up to that point. And he said the reason for 38 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: it was that while he thought advertising still is kind 39 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: of broken online or at least is not an ideal 40 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: experience for most people, it ultimately could really hurt small 41 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: businesses that really depend on that web advertising, and if 42 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: that avenue of revenue is gone, those businesses could go away. 43 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: He says, Once I start thinking about something I made 44 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:53,239 Speaker 1: could literally put a person out of business. It changed 45 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: things for me, and I could not let that be 46 00:02:58,600 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 1: something I had contributed. 47 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 2: Crisis of conscience. 48 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know he decided. 49 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 3: Uh. 50 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: He says this specifically says, I've learned over the last 51 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: few crazy days that I don't feel good making one 52 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: and being the arbiter of what's blocked making one, being 53 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,399 Speaker 1: an ad blocker. Ad blockers come with an important asterisk. 54 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 1: While they do benefit a ton of people in major ways, 55 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: they also hurt some, including many who don't deserve the hit. 56 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: And there's an article in Wired, which again Wired is 57 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 1: one of those companies that says, hey, we noticed you're 58 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: watching using an ad blocker. Would you consider possibly turning 59 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: it off while you're here? 60 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 2: You can still visit our website. I mean, what are 61 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 2: we Forbes? Yeah yeah, yeah, sorry, I'm going to tone 62 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 2: down the snart. 63 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: No, but We're gonna get back to Forbes, say, because 64 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: I gotta I gotta talk about that. So so Wired, 65 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: you know, they say, like, this is how we make money. 66 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: You can police consider turning it off. It worked for me. 67 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: I turned it off because the ads I come across 68 00:03:55,600 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: on Wired don't tend to be obnoxious or intrusive or 69 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: take away my experience. They don't completely cloud my view 70 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: of whatever it is I'm looking at. They are responsible 71 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: with their advertising and I respect that. So anyway, Wired 72 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: has this article about Arment and his experience, and one 73 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: of the things they point out is that ad blockers 74 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:25,239 Speaker 1: are too blunt of an instrument, meaning they punish everyone equally. 75 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: They punish the people who are running tons of ads 76 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 1: on their page with very little content. I'm sure you've 77 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 1: come across one of those in the past where you're like, 78 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: is there anything here that's not an ad? They punish 79 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: those where you would argue, there's very little value for 80 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: your visit. But they also punish the upstanding folks who 81 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: are just they're doing their best to make a living 82 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: doing what they love, but they find it very difficult 83 00:04:55,440 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: because of this hit they're taking with ad revenue. So yeah, 84 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 1: very interesting. Now to get back to Forbes. Forbes has 85 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: this approach where if they detect an ad blocker, they 86 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 1: say turn it off or you're not going any further right, right, 87 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: And they even say, hey, if you turn it off, 88 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 1: you can have thirty days to experience the ad light 89 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: experience with Forbes, and I thought, you know what, that's fair. 90 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: I will I will see what this AD light experience is. 91 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: Maybe it's gonna be like wired, and I'm gonna have 92 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: a pleasant experience. I turn off my AD blugger, I 93 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,919 Speaker 1: go on in and the first thing that happens is 94 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: a float over pop up window playing video automatically scrolls 95 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: over what I'm trying to read. And I think this 96 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: is AD light. What does AD heavy look like? 97 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 2: Add heavy? They send someone to. 98 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: Your house and they're just like, hey, I couldn't help, 99 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 1: but notice you don't have all rugs over here. 100 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 3: We like to sell you some rugs, and we're right outside. 101 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 3: It's only gonna take like forty five minutes to an 102 00:05:57,600 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 3: hour for me to tell you about all these rugs. 103 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 2: And the sound. 104 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, you close the door and all your ears listen. 105 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 3: You close the door, but I'm still here and I'm 106 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 3: gonna talk about the rugs through your. 107 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: Door for the next forty five minutes. You can't walk 108 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 1: this ad. 109 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:13,799 Speaker 2: I mean it's good. It's it's a good point though, 110 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 2: because if the AD light experience is still intrusive, Yeah, 111 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 2: then what is the difference is it? Again? A hierarchy 112 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 2: of types. 113 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's a good question that I don't know 114 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: the answer to. I mean, it's and I know I'm 115 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: slamming Forbes a bit with this discussion, but I under again, 116 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: I understand the position they're in. It's not like I 117 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: don't appreciate that, of course I do. I just feel 118 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: like the whole approach to ads online has been broken 119 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: since day one. And one of the things I keep 120 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 1: hoping for is that the ad block issue will force companies, 121 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 1: including really advertising companies, into coming up with ways where 122 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 1: advertising works. Not that we're advertising sneaks in that's not working. No, 123 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 1: that just creates more resentment. You've got to find a 124 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: way to make it work, or you have to find 125 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: a different way to make money. So you could go 126 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: the route of like a paywall that some sites have 127 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: gone to, where you have to pay to get access 128 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: to the full site, or you could go with something 129 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: like a Patreon approach, where you develop a loyal audience 130 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 1: and then you say, hey, I love making this stuff 131 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: for you. I hope you love the stuff that I'm making. 132 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: It's kind of an NPR model, right, Help me make 133 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: the stuff you love by giving me a little bit 134 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: of money each month. That will cover my costs and 135 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: I can keep doing. 136 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 2: This and I can give you some perks. 137 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's somewhere it will be perks as well. 138 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: And honestly, I'm a Patreon for like three or four 139 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: different things recurring monthly, and in every case I don't 140 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: care about the perks. The perks were not the reason 141 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: why I did it. I did it because I appreciated 142 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: and respected the content I was getting and I wanted 143 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: to support the stuff I love. And I'm in a 144 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: position where I can afford to do that. Obviously, not 145 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: everyone is, and in fact, there's some people out there. 146 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: Tom Merritt, great example. Tom Merritt's stand up guy does 147 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: the daily tech news show Amazing Program, and he says, look, 148 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: I get it. Some of you. You know your every 149 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: dollar counts, and I totally understand that, and I appreciate 150 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 1: that you listen to so thank you. You are just 151 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: as important to me. But for people who can afford 152 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: to maybe throw a dollar or five dollars a month 153 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: to help me produce the show, do that. And the 154 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: more people who do, the more shows I can produce. 155 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: I can go to six days a week, which is 156 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: what he's trying to do right now. 157 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 2: Cooler stuff too. You have a higher production value, You 158 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:53,439 Speaker 2: get what you. 159 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: Pay for exactly. And again, it keeps the show ad free, 160 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: so you know, he might have a sponsor for an 161 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: episode or two, but generally speaking, the shows are pretty 162 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: much had free, which is very refreshing compared to some 163 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: other shows online where you're like, they've been talking about 164 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 1: this ad for three minutes. 165 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 2: Do you remember how? And this goes to other video 166 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 2: as well, that's not necessarily personality driven. Do you remember 167 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 2: the uproar that Hulu created when people would pay for 168 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 2: a subscription what was it, nine, ten dollars whatever? Pay 169 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 2: for a subscription that also still had ads in the video? 170 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: Come yeah? People were saying, why am I paying to 171 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 1: watch these to watch these ads? I thought that the 172 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: paying was so that I wouldn't have to watch ads anymore. 173 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: Hulu also has the AD blocker detector, so that says, like, 174 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: you have an AD blocker on, you want to watch 175 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: an episode, turn it off. 176 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 2: We are unable to provide the ad viewing experience due 177 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 2: to your applock. You can wait them out, though, you 178 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 2: could play the the poker game with them. 179 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: The screen long enough and it starts to play. Yes, 180 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 1: does it really? 181 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, if you just leave it alone long enough because 182 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 2: I'm busy, I would have it on in the background 183 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:13,239 Speaker 2: or something. 184 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: You just like suddenly you just hear like an episode 185 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: all of. 186 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 2: A sudden, And to be honest, it brightened me and 187 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 2: my cat. It's it's strange though, when we see these 188 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 2: different strategies used to address targeted advertising. I have a 189 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 2: question for you guarding this. So one of the big 190 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 2: concerns of privacy advocates is that targeted advertising takes this user, 191 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 2: this user generated data, and builds a profile off of 192 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 2: that we have in the past, or you have specifically 193 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 2: on tex stuff explored the search bubble, that past results 194 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 2: predict what you were shown when you ask a question, 195 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 2: and yeah, it's supposed to be stuff that rather than 196 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,559 Speaker 2: the objective truth. The more of a profile you build, 197 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 2: the more likely that you're going to find it's going 198 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 2: to give you stuff that it thinks you like. 199 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: It's essentially a stepping stone to the semantic web, where 200 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: the web anticipates what you want and gives you your 201 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: version of what it is you want. The downside of 202 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: that being that you could create an Internet version of 203 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,439 Speaker 1: the Echo chamber and you only see the stuff that 204 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: reinforces what you already think. 205 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I think that this is I think the 206 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:44,559 Speaker 2: dangerous thing about targeted advertising like that is especially because 207 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:48,479 Speaker 2: it is automated, right, and it's based on this precedent set. 208 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 2: What can happen is that eventually, through some error in 209 00:11:54,960 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 2: the code, through some misinterpreted series of visits to some 210 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 2: other website, it could just decide that Jonathan Strickland must 211 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 2: like diapers, and because he hasn't bought them yet, is 212 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 2: only an indication that Jonathan Strickland needs more advertisements for 213 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 2: diapers until he gets it. And that that can happen, 214 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 2: That can happen to people. So I you know, one 215 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 2: of the most I think he used this example before, 216 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 2: one of the most in my mind, egregious examples of 217 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,839 Speaker 2: how to do targeted advertising in the worst possible way is. 218 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: Facebook, Ben and I will be back to talk more 219 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: about the perils of advertising after this quick break. Facebook. 220 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 1: The way it works is that you'll end up seeing 221 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: stuff and started into your feed that can end up 222 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: being kind of creepy, especially like you said, if it's 223 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,319 Speaker 1: something that pops up where it's related to a search 224 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 1: that you did when you weren't even part of Facebook 225 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: in the first place. Yeah, you get these promoted entries 226 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: into your feed that look like the same sort of 227 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: stuff that a friend might have left, but it wasn't 228 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: left by any of your friends. It was just left 229 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: by your friends at Facebook and whatever advertising agency they're 230 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,079 Speaker 1: working with. And then of course there's all this stuff 231 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: that appears in the right rail that looks like it's 232 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: news articles, but it's not. It's more advertising. And in fact, 233 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: a lot of the clickbait stuff that shows up on Facebook. 234 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: Not that this is Facebook's fault, but a lot of 235 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: the clickbait stuff that ends up getting shared to Facebook 236 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: and then re shared by tons of people who aren't 237 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: necessarily thinking critically, is really just thinly veiled advertorial content, right, 238 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: or it links to a site that has ridiculous advertising 239 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: space on it and just a tiny bit of content. 240 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 2: And also this goes to a bigger thing. This is 241 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 2: the first instance in human civilization of the capability to 242 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 2: block advertisement. Right. So it's something that we forget. We 243 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 2: tried a very a daunting and ambitious task on stuff 244 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 2: they don't want you to know. My co hosts Matt 245 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 2: and Nola and I said, you know what, let's pick 246 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 2: a day and let's count every advertisement we see from 247 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 2: waking to sleep. None of us could do it successfully 248 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 2: because our day to day physical lives are so embedded 249 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 2: with advertising already. To your point, yeah, you know, and 250 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 2: it makes me wonder, what if there were some sort 251 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 2: of physical analog to that, would people do it? I 252 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 2: think the answer is, of course, because people want to 253 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 2: feel like they're not being continually pitched to. 254 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: Right, and in fact we've you know, this kind of 255 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: brings us the whole idea about privacy and using an 256 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: ad blocker to protect yourself, and then the counter two 257 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: ad blockers, where you get the ad blocker detectors. Essentially, 258 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: what they're detecting, by the way, is they're just saying 259 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: was the ad served to the browser? And if the 260 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: answer is no, then the assumption is the person has 261 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: an ad blocker program running on their machine. That leads 262 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: us to the discussion in Europe where there is this 263 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: ongoing battle about whether or not ad blocker detectors are 264 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: in fact illegal or at least violating a policy about privacy. 265 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: And it's a pretty interesting and weird kind of story. 266 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: So there's a guy named Alexander Hant who has put 267 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: forth this argument saying that because a website is capable 268 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: of telling you have an ad blocker on it, that 269 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: violates your sense of privacy. Therefore is illegal to have 270 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: an ad blocker detector on a service, and ad blockers 271 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: should not be punished or there should not be this 272 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: detection system. And it was because of a pretty broad 273 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: reading of the European privacy law, which says that a 274 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: company cannot record information about you without your consent right, 275 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: and the argument was that is the ad blocker is 276 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: the detection of that, is that actually recording information about 277 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: a person? Because if so, then there should first pop 278 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: up a little message saying this website wants to find 279 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: out if you're using an ad blocker do you allow 280 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: it to do so? And it gets really to a 281 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: question of practicality, like does the Internet work in such 282 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 1: a way that it would be possible to implement a 283 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 1: policy that's akin to that or would it just mean 284 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: that we have to rethink the way these laws are 285 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: framed because they don't take into account the way the 286 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 1: Internet works, and because of that they are passing laws 287 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: that are counterproductive or in some cases just would never work, 288 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: they'd be unenforceable, and they would be they would just 289 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: cause a massive mess. And so that's an ongoing discussion 290 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,880 Speaker 1: as we're recording this podcast that has not been decided yet, 291 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: but there are arguments on both sides about whether or 292 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: not these ad blocker detectors are against the law or 293 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: if they're totally legal, and if they are legal, that 294 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:49,959 Speaker 1: people can that a company can say, hey, turn your 295 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: ad blocker off, you vandal your visigoths trying to think 296 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: of trying to think of European marauders at this point, 297 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:04,400 Speaker 1: you're Viking, and so it's that's an interesting thing to see. 298 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 2: Now. 299 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: We don't have anything like that in the US because 300 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 1: privacy is something we long since gave up on. 301 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we're still doing the song and 302 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 2: dance every so often, you know. It's it's one of 303 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 2: those we make hallmark card level statements about privacy in 304 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 2: the public sphere. 305 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: And I guess, I guess really the place to kind 306 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:29,719 Speaker 1: of end this discussion to really the kicker. The reason 307 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: why it would be very difficult for me to argue 308 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 1: with any sincerity against someone's decision to use an ad 309 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 1: blocker is the safety issue. The malware issue. So earlier 310 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 1: this year there was a story about how this this 311 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: malware group managed to infiltrate advertising companies that served ads 312 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: to places like the BBC and other major outlets like 313 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 1: msn A, like The New York Times. 314 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 2: Big Fish. 315 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, these are huge outlets that are had to have 316 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: advertising on them, And what the malware designers had done 317 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 1: was they had injected malware into ads that were being 318 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 1: served on these so they didn't have to they didn't 319 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: have to hack into the New York Times or the BBC. 320 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:25,919 Speaker 1: They had to hack into the actual advertising server and 321 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: insert some malware and disguise it really well, so it's 322 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 1: not easy to pick out that malware gets served up 323 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 1: as if it's a legitimate ad, and they could convince 324 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:41,160 Speaker 1: someone to install some code that ends up encrypting their 325 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: hard drive. This is called ransomware. So this is when 326 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: you get a message out of the blue and it says, hey, 327 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: guess what, sucker, your computer's encrypted, and we've got an 328 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 1: encryption key and we'll sell it to you. So you've 329 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 1: got to pay us and we'll give you the key 330 00:19:57,359 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: so that you can get back into your computer. If 331 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: you don't pay us. At such and such a time, 332 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: we will destroy your encryption key and your computer will 333 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 1: permanently be encrypted, and there's nothing you can do about it. 334 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: Ha ha ha. It's essentially the way the message goes and 335 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: and so your your computer is held hostage and unless 336 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: you pay for it, then you're kind of stuck. And 337 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,880 Speaker 1: because it was it was the malware attacks were coming 338 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: from these major trusted outlets. That's a huge problem, right, 339 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 1: It's not like it's not like the people were going 340 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: to you know, some back alley website that was already 341 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: got a terrible reputation. They were malware. 342 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, they weren't going to like freeezannexinadderall dot biz. 343 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. They were going to the New York Times, 344 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 1: for goodness sakes. And so if you have an ad blocker, 345 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,719 Speaker 1: it blocks that stuff because it identifies it as an 346 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: AD and you never get it, so you are safe 347 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 1: from that kind of a malware attack. So it's very 348 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 1: difficult to argue, hey, ad blockers are wrong when people 349 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,120 Speaker 1: who don't use them are potentially going to fall victim 350 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: to this ransomware attack. And this was a very specific incident. 351 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: It's not necessarily ever going to repeat or it may 352 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,640 Speaker 1: not repeat on a scale as large as it did before, 353 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:21,120 Speaker 1: but it drives home that fact that ad blockers are 354 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 1: not just for people who are tired of being sold to. 355 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 1: It's for people who are like, no, I want to 356 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: be able to surf the web. I'm very careful with 357 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: the way I surf the web. I want to make 358 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,880 Speaker 1: sure that I don't get hit by something despite how 359 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 1: careful I am, and I'm getting it from what I 360 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,439 Speaker 1: thought was a trusted source. Look y'all, it's not lost 361 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 1: on me that it is somewhat ironic for me to 362 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: interrupt a conversation about the problems with ads so that 363 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 1: we can go listen to some ads. But you got 364 00:21:49,640 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: to pay the bills, y'all. Here we go. So one 365 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,680 Speaker 1: of the things I read about was about Forbes being 366 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: one of those sites that you go to Forbes dot 367 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: com and you get the message, hey, you need to 368 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 1: turn off your ad blogger if you want to have 369 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: access to it. But Forbes was also victim to a 370 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: ransomware attack, which means that you know, you're like, well, 371 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: I want to read that thing on Forbes, but then 372 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: you make yourself vulnerable to being attacked by malware. 373 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 2: And Forbes is such great work they do. 374 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: And that's the thing is that you know, we're again 375 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: it sounds like we're really bashing on Forbes, but it's 376 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: largely due to the problem with advertising, not the problem 377 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,199 Speaker 1: that Forbes wants to get paid. I totally respect that, 378 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: of course, and I know I've said it multiple times, 379 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,400 Speaker 1: but I just want to drive that home is that 380 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,479 Speaker 1: as someone who I make a living off this, I 381 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 1: want to continue to do so. And part of that 382 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: means that I have to be you know that my 383 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 1: work is going up on pages that have advertising served 384 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,360 Speaker 1: against it, and I want those pages to do well, 385 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: and I want those advertisers to do well. But it 386 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,120 Speaker 1: requires that we have an advertising system that works and 387 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 1: that isn't predatory or damaging. 388 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 2: And currently we're still trying to we as a species 389 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:15,120 Speaker 2: are still trying to find what that thing is. We're 390 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 2: we're kind of in a pioneering wild West state right now. 391 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and it's weird because advertising has been around 392 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: for ages. Ages. 393 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 2: Some of the earliest advertising actually goes back to Greco 394 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 2: Roman times. Did you hear about this? No? There were so, well, 395 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 2: I might I think you know what I'm going to say, So. 396 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 1: Are you talking about houses of ill repute? 397 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:47,120 Speaker 2: Yes, Archaeologists found that prostitutes would wear sandals with arrows 398 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 2: imprinted in the soul of the sandal, so that they 399 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:55,199 Speaker 2: would leave a series of arrows as they walked to 400 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 2: As you so fittingly put it, the house of ill 401 00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 2: repute advertising is ancient. 402 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: Can do you one better than that? 403 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 2: All right? Laid on me. 404 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:09,439 Speaker 1: Pompeii, the city of Pompeii. They're still paving stones in 405 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: Pompeii that have the image of a phallus raised a 406 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: raised like it's actually carved in the stones, pointing in 407 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: the direction of the brothels and and if you get 408 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: the tour guide I get for Pompeii, he delights in 409 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: pointing all of them out and explaining this and uses 410 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: the the pronunciation of pos posse has a pose on it. 411 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 2: I don't know if you're doing me one better, though, 412 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 2: because these are just these are clearly like it sounds 413 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 2: like prostitution. Advertisements are the pepsi and coke of early ads. 414 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:52,719 Speaker 1: Well, and to be fair, like you know you were 415 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: saying making tracks in the dirt, I'm talking about putting 416 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 1: forth the effort. 417 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 2: I guess there is I guess there is that. Well 418 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 2: maybe that maybe they're brought those were just more stable places. 419 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: Well at least until the volcano erupted. Sorry, sorry man, Okay, 420 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 1: well that that volcano though, Yeah, one hell of an 421 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 1: AD blocker, so too soon? Yeah, yeah, I should have 422 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,479 Speaker 1: waited a couple more millennia. Yeah, we're having a lot 423 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: of fun now. This is when we're like, hey, guys, 424 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 1: it's Friday afternoon. Guess who's getting loopy? But no, getting 425 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 1: back into the modern day discussion of this, and and 426 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,159 Speaker 1: and and the concerns that are there. You know. I've 427 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 1: also read a piece that was written, I think in 428 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: zd net about how you should not The author said, 429 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: you shouldn't give sites that require you to disable ad 430 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: blockers your clicks because of the safety issue is that 431 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: if they say that they value money more than they 432 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 1: value your safety as a customer, then that's a message 433 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: that tells you you should not be a customer of 434 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: that company. And I thought that's a very hard argument 435 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 1: to oppose, right, Like, I don't want to go to 436 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: a store where they're like, listen, buy some of our stuff. 437 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: And then I look up and I see that ceiling 438 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: tiles are about to fall down, or there's a sparking 439 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 1: wire that's just laying on the ground. 440 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 2: There's a hid by himself in a puddle, just screaming. 441 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: There's a guy in a hockey mask just pacing back 442 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: and forth. And in the shadows back in the section 443 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 1: that I need to go in. 444 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:30,959 Speaker 2: A bird hits the glass. Right. 445 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: There are a lot of like there a lot of 446 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,719 Speaker 1: warning flags that are popping up, and I'm thinking, clearly, 447 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: this this shot proprietor doesn't care about my safety and 448 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 1: just wants me to buy something. I'm out. 449 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I don't. 450 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 1: I don't necessarily mean that websites or shot proprietors for 451 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: that matter, need to fall over themselves and say, listen, 452 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 1: your welfare is our chief concern, but at least shows 453 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 1: some concern, right right. 454 00:26:56,320 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly exactly, because the audience, the audience ultimately should 455 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 2: be the primary concern, yes, right, yeah. 456 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: And again, if your goal is to make money by 457 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: selling to those people, or if your goal is to 458 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: make money so that you can continue creating content and 459 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: you're doing it through a partnership with an advertiser, then 460 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: part of that means you definitely want that audience to 461 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: be well because otherwise you don't have someone to sell to, right, 462 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: So it makes it's so easy to see how it 463 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 1: makes sense that the best possible approach is to find 464 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 1: the one that is not going to irritate your viewer base. 465 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,959 Speaker 1: Because if you can figure that out, then you are 466 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: good to go. If you are if you're able to 467 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,400 Speaker 1: do it without pushing away your audience, then things are working. 468 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,160 Speaker 1: The weird thing, and I know where I was going 469 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: with before I talked about the ancient the ancient advertisement. 470 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: The weird thing is we've had advertisement for so long, 471 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 1: but no real way of seeing how effective it was. 472 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 2: Right right, Yeah, no metric? 473 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, so television, radio, newspaper magazines. I mean, you could 474 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 1: see after an ad campaign if sales increased, and you 475 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 1: could argue, well, some of that sales increase must be 476 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: due to the advertising, and you're probably right, But you 477 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 1: can't get to the point where you can say how 478 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 1: much of that increase was due to the advertising. It 479 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: may be that advertising had a small but ultimately not 480 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: a tremendous impact on sales and something else was responsible 481 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: for the spike. It was impossible to say. The real 482 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: weird thing about the Internet is you can track all that, right, 483 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 1: you can track if people click on an AD, and 484 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: once you get that information, instead of making it more valuable, 485 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: it somehow made it less valuable. And possibly they made 486 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: it less valuable by people saying, you know, advertising not 487 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: as powerful as I thought it was, which meant all 488 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: the advertising companies in the world said, uh oh, all 489 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: the Don drapers of the world said, and that that 490 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: opening part of the credits, where a silhouette is falling 491 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: from a building, is starting to look pretty prophetic. Right now, 492 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: of course, we all know that's not how it turned out. 493 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 2: I have never seen Math, neither of I have just 494 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 2: read a lot about it. 495 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: I hear it's a lot like Yeah, it's a lot 496 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: like Slooper. It's exactly like Looper. Uh So, anyway, that 497 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: kind of wraps up our discussion. And again, this is 498 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 1: a weird thing to talk about on a podcast that 499 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: occasionally has sponsors that also again is part of a 500 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 1: company that does web that well, that makes money at 501 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: least in part through web advertising. But we thought it 502 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: was an important one to talk about because as as 503 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: people who create content, we want to see this work. 504 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: We want we want to have a job. Ben I 505 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: don't want to put words in your mouth. But I 506 00:29:57,520 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: like what I do for a living. 507 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 2: I'm here for community service. 508 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 1: Actually I got you. Yeah, that explains the orange vest 509 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 1: that you have to weigh. Yes, but then we have 510 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: to report you because we were told you have to 511 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: wait a time. 512 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 2: So yeah, this is absolutely right. We love our jobs. 513 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: We love our jobs, and we want to keep doing them. 514 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: But as consumers ourselves, we completely understand the plight of 515 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: people who are tired of these bad experiences. So if 516 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: I were to leave you with anything, dear listeners, it 517 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: would be but all the house stuff works domains on 518 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: your white list, so that I can continue to have 519 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: a job. But also, if anyone out there is in 520 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: the advertising world to really give hard thought, like how 521 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: can we create a better system that serves everyone more effectively? 522 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: Because we we do. We need that, we want it, 523 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 1: We need it from multiple reasons. The content providers needed, 524 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: the viewers needed, the advertising companies needed, the vendors need it. 525 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: We just have to figure that out in a way 526 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: that has not really worked yet. With some exceptions. There's 527 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 1: some online ads that may be extremely effective, and we 528 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: need to study how those work and what was it 529 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: that made them special? And perhaps create more appropriate best 530 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: practices of stuff. 531 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's way more effective. Currently it seems 532 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 2: to be or Twitter accounts from companies that talk directly 533 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 2: to it with a sense of humor, and in these 534 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 2: weird rivalries like fast food company twitters are hilarious. I 535 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 2: don't know who they put in charge of it, and 536 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 2: I don't know when they sober up. Right for now, 537 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 2: the ride is great well, and for. 538 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: Me, like, I subscribe to quite a few services as well, 539 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 1: including YouTube Bread is one. And because I subscribe to 540 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: YouTube Bread, I don't worry about ads that doesn't happen, 541 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: but it means I'm paying a certain amount per month 542 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 1: to have access to that. And in fact, I didn't 543 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: even subscribe to YouTube Bread. Technically A subscribed to Google Music, 544 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 1: which then converted into a YouTube Bread subscription, which is awesome. 545 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: I don't have to subscribe to two different things now. 546 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: But that approach I also like, like, I like the 547 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 1: choice saying, hey, you know, you can go the route 548 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: of watching the ads supported content, or if you pay 549 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 1: a little to us each month, you can get the 550 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: ad free version. And I'm fine with that too. And 551 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: that concludes the conversation I had with Ben Bollin way 552 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: back in twenty sixteen about the problem with ads. Again, 553 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 1: like I said, we could do an update to this, because, 554 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: as it turns out, there are multiple new ways for 555 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: ads to be served to us. The targeted advertising field 556 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 1: has gotten way more complicated since twenty sixteen. We're starting 557 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: to see companies like Meta get serious pushback on the 558 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: way that they have used targeted advertising, particularly in places 559 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: like the European Union. With the development of virtual reality 560 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: and augmented reality, we've got a lot of companies out 561 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 1: there just sort of champing at the bit in order 562 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: to find new ways to serve ads to us. And 563 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 1: those are ways that could be far more intrusive, right, 564 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: Like if you've got eye tracking hardware and software that 565 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: are incorporated into a headset, then advertising can end up 566 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 1: getting even more intrusive. And that's concerning the whole concept 567 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: of the metaverse. Brings up lots more questions about advertising 568 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: and privacy and security. So yeah, Ben should probably come 569 00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: back on the show and we should talk more about 570 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: the current and future concerns we have with the way 571 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: advertising is handled. We hear it, I heart, at least 572 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 1: I'll speak for myself, but most of my co workers 573 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 1: I feel fall into this category too. We take this seriously. 574 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: We want to make sure that we monetize our shows 575 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: or else, you know, we can't do them anymore because 576 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,839 Speaker 1: you know, you can't just do this and have yourself 577 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: get paid for it and not have any way to 578 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: generate revenue. But we want to make sure we do 579 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 1: it in a responsible way, so I know that my 580 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: coworkers take this as seriously as I do. Where we 581 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: try our best to make sure that the ads that 582 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,839 Speaker 1: are paired with our shows are ones that we don't 583 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,360 Speaker 1: object to, that we feel are a good fit for 584 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: our programs, and that aren't predatory in nature. Occasionally we 585 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:56,919 Speaker 1: are tricked ourselves or we miss something and we allow 586 00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 1: something to slip through, but we do our best. I 587 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:01,239 Speaker 1: know that I've done that a couple times in the 588 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: past where in retrospect I'm like, ooh, I should have 589 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 1: done a little more research to make sure that this 590 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 1: was something that I was comfortable having play on the show. 591 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,759 Speaker 1: But yeah, we do our best on that because we 592 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 1: do understand that advertising is a double edged sword. On 593 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,240 Speaker 1: the positive side, you might introduce people into a product 594 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: or service that they really genuinely could use that could 595 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: be helpful for them. The other side is you could 596 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: end up perpetuating a predatory relationship that you definitely don't want. 597 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 1: So yeah, the challenges continue. If you have suggestions for 598 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,439 Speaker 1: future topics I could cover here on tech Stuff, please 599 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:43,880 Speaker 1: let me know. You can reach out to me a 600 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 1: couple different ways. You can download the iHeartRadio app. It's 601 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,759 Speaker 1: free to download and use. You can navigate over to 602 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,239 Speaker 1: tech Stuff using that little search bar. You'll see that 603 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 1: there's a microphone icon on the tech stuff page. If 604 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 1: you click on that, you can leave me a voice 605 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,239 Speaker 1: message up to thirty seconds in length. If you prefer 606 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: to write to me, you can head on over to Twitter. 607 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 1: I'm assuming Twitter still exists, So I'm recording all of 608 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,759 Speaker 1: these intros and outros in January of twenty twenty three, 609 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,479 Speaker 1: and it's months later now. I don't know if Twitter 610 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 1: is still a thing. I can't tell the future. I 611 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,320 Speaker 1: know that it's in real trouble right now, but hopefully 612 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: it's still around. If it is, go there and send 613 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,239 Speaker 1: me a message. The handle for the show is tech 614 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:26,399 Speaker 1: Stuff HSW and I'll talk to you again really soon. 615 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 1: Tech Stuff is an iHeartRadio production for more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 616 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:41,279 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen 617 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:42,400 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.