Speaker 1: I'm Paula Barrows and I'm Melanie Bartley, and this sacred scandal.
Speaker 1: I believe Mikhailo was sexually abused by the priests. If
Speaker 1: he says that it has happened, it happened. That never
Speaker 1: seemed like an option to me. It's hard to accept,
Speaker 1: you know, and I believe it now. I mean, what
Speaker 1: me Hilo did was so awful, like their hats have
Speaker 1: done something to make that come out of him. Obviously, again,
Speaker 1: we don't know what happened, but we never saw anything,
Speaker 1: We never felt anything. Do I think it's a possibility. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I totally think it's possible. Do I know for sure
Speaker 1: if that happened. No, and I will never know the
Speaker 1: sexual accusations of his abuse, for one thing, we never
Speaker 1: heard anything. Never, It never happened. The initial evidence around
Speaker 1: the campus of Holy Cross painted a picture of premeditated murder,
Speaker 1: and certain things clearly stood out. The knife used in
Speaker 1: the murder was part of a matching set from the
Speaker 1: house at Barry University. Mike would need to bring that
Speaker 1: with him days before the murder. There were also the
Speaker 1: gloves and unused roll of duct tape he showed police
Speaker 1: when they returned to the scene, and then there were
Speaker 1: those odd, bloody footprints across campus. They looked like a
Speaker 1: shapeless mudge because Mike only wore socks that night, maybe
Speaker 1: as a way to keep his steps from being heard.
Speaker 1: This evidence, plus Mike's own admission to the murder of
Speaker 1: sister Michelle Lewis, mentors life was now destined for why
Speaker 1: of two paths, life in prison or death row. But
Speaker 1: the sexual abuse he alleged was happening to him at
Speaker 1: Holy Cross could give his court appointed public defense team
Speaker 1: another route to take to trial. If they could prove
Speaker 1: that Mike was sexually abused and that it had truly
Speaker 1: put him in an uncontrolled murderous rage, they would be
Speaker 1: able to put together an insanity defense. That defense would
Speaker 1: argue that Mike committed his crime because the alleged abuse
Speaker 1: caused him to act irrationally and lose his ability to
Speaker 1: determine right from wrong. To do that, the defense would
Speaker 1: need to corroborate Mike's claims and try to prove that
Speaker 1: he was telling the truth. So now both sides would
Speaker 1: start compiling evidence to complete their sides of the story.
Speaker 1: The defense would start building their case at the source
Speaker 1: of those allegations Mihilo co fil When Mikhailo made allegations
Speaker 1: of sexual abuse, I realized it was rather critical to
Speaker 1: be very careful about revealing these allegations and incorporating them
Speaker 1: as part of our defense if I didn't check them out.
Speaker 1: This is Edith Georgie, who spent thirty five years as
Speaker 1: an attorney with the Miami Dade Public Defender's Office. Edith
Speaker 1: would lead Mike's defense team. We had Mikhailo polygraphed by
Speaker 1: an independent person who's highly acclaimed, well respected. He passed,
Speaker 1: and one of the first things I did was bring
Speaker 1: down an expert that we've known for years from outside
Speaker 1: of the state, who's very highly acclaimed person, and he
Speaker 1: has tremendous experience with victims of violence. And I said,
Speaker 1: do whatever you need to work with Mr ko Fell
Speaker 1: and give me a report as to whether you think
Speaker 1: the allegations are valid or not, because I don't want
Speaker 1: to put them out there in any way, shape or
Speaker 1: form if I don't believe them. And he was tested
Speaker 1: for about four or five days, and this expert reported
Speaker 1: to me that he absolutely believed what Mikaylo was saying.
Speaker 1: The manner in which he expressed at the detail in
Speaker 1: which he reported it, and in fact, this expert was
Speaker 1: aghast at how sophisticated and horrific these so called fathers were.
Speaker 1: But even the findings of these experts would not be
Speaker 1: enough for the defense to fully prove that Mike was
Speaker 1: telling the truth about his abuse. To get that information,
Speaker 1: both the prosecution and Mike's lawyers would need to speak
Speaker 1: with the monks and priests of Holy Cross, but that
Speaker 1: would not be easy. There was an edict sent out
Speaker 1: from Father Abbot and his counsel from the beginning that
Speaker 1: no one was to speak with anyone from the outside,
Speaker 1: meaning lawyers, investigators, police without an attorney present. Generally, in
Speaker 1: a case like this where our client has friends and
Speaker 1: associates in the community, we will immediately send out an
Speaker 1: investigator to go to the location of those people, and
Speaker 1: often people will speak to us and want to speak
Speaker 1: to us voluntarily. In this case, they were forbidden to
Speaker 1: do so by Father Abbot. At this point, Holy Crosses
Speaker 1: Insurance Company stepped in as well. Church Mutual Insurance, which
Speaker 1: covers religious organizations and handles liability cases for them, provided
Speaker 1: lawyers for the monastic candidates and priests of Holy Cross
Speaker 1: each monastic candidate, as I recall, was given his own lawyer,
Speaker 1: so we had a about six lawyers. I think there
Speaker 1: were four monastic candidates and Father Abbot and Father Damien
Speaker 1: all Um funded by the insurance company. I believe that
Speaker 1: funds and he claims against the school, and all of
Speaker 1: these layers of lawyers made it difficult for Edith's team
Speaker 1: to get any corroborating information from inside the school. I'd
Speaker 1: say that I have never seen in my years doing
Speaker 1: this kind of work any group who have been less
Speaker 1: cooperative with the police, and to have a school not
Speaker 1: allow police, and to have a school monitor every single
Speaker 1: move that was made. The warnings that Father Abbott gave
Speaker 1: he did not allow the monastic can it is to speak,
Speaker 1: or anyone to speak voluntarily. Everything had to be pursuant
Speaker 1: to a subpoena. But he warned them in a very
Speaker 1: dramatic tone that they should not speak about anything personal
Speaker 1: if they were asked anything personal. And from the beginning
Speaker 1: it was clear that Father Abbott was concerned about what
Speaker 1: might be coming out, which I found quite curious. Now
Speaker 1: what would he be worried about, But there was something
Speaker 1: to worry about. Soon after, Mike made the allegations of
Speaker 1: sexual assault against father Went and father Damien. A sex
Speaker 1: crime case was opened, and Gail Levine, the lead prosecutor
Speaker 1: in the murder case, would also play a role here
Speaker 1: and come up against those same challenges as the defense.
Speaker 1: Immediately upon mc calo Cofel giving a statement to police
Speaker 1: that he had been sexually abused at the Holy Cross Academy,
Speaker 1: as law enforcement, we became extremely concerned about the other
Speaker 1: children that were there. There were four other people under
Speaker 1: the age of eighteen that were residing there. There was
Speaker 1: one person over the age of eighteen. We wanted to
Speaker 1: make sure that no one else was being heard. What
Speaker 1: we immediately encountered was resistance, resistance from getting any contact
Speaker 1: with the monastic candidates from the Ukraine. So we tried
Speaker 1: very hard and I assembled a team to be available
Speaker 1: on one day during one afternoon when all four of
Speaker 1: us could begin by interviewing those four Ukrainian nationals. Immediately
Speaker 1: we were given notice that a legal team had been
Speaker 1: assembled and none of those students would come to the
Speaker 1: State Attorney's office without subpoenas and without the presence of
Speaker 1: their lawyers. What we thought was so shocking was really
Speaker 1: within thirty six hours, a legal team had been assembled,
Speaker 1: and police couldn't even go out and gather the witnesses
Speaker 1: or the possible victims up, you know, and get information
Speaker 1: about them and what was going on. We were prohibited
Speaker 1: from doing that, and we were prohibited for several days,
Speaker 1: and that made us more concerned, very concerned that they
Speaker 1: were going to be told what to say and what
Speaker 1: to do. When the legal teams finally did get subpoenas
Speaker 1: to speak with the monastic candidates, they were surprised by
Speaker 1: the demeanor of the boys. When we did get a
Speaker 1: chance to meet those children, it was to us shocking
Speaker 1: what we saw. They were clearly well groomed. They appeared thin,
Speaker 1: but not malnourished, pale as if they hadn't seen the
Speaker 1: Florida sun at all, and they were rigidly dressed white shirts,
Speaker 1: black pants, black shoes. They certainly didn't come across as
Speaker 1: teenage boys. They came across as small robots. They spoke
Speaker 1: beautifully and clearly, but with a specific cadence in their voice.
Speaker 1: When you asked them, do you know the difference between
Speaker 1: good touching and bad touching? They would say, yes, did
Speaker 1: anybody touch you in a bad place. No, how do
Speaker 1: you like living at the monastery? Very good, Everything's fine.
Speaker 1: So it was a matter of lack of a better word,
Speaker 1: pulling teeth. We got nothing out of them, and the
Speaker 1: lawyers from Church Mutual Insurance complicated things for the teams
Speaker 1: investigating Mike's claims of sexual abuse. Here's Gail Avine again.
Speaker 1: They were a huge insurance company. They provide the best
Speaker 1: representation and they tangled a web that was very hard
Speaker 1: for us to untangle. Every kid had an excellent lawyer.
Speaker 1: Now I don't know what was done before the kid
Speaker 1: got to me, but by the time the kid got
Speaker 1: to me, the kid was schooled in what to say.
Speaker 1: Nothing happened to me. So that's why I went to Ukraine.
Speaker 1: I got permission from the State Department to go to Ukraine,
Speaker 1: where these people were not represented by anybody. This decision
Speaker 1: to go to Ukraine to speak with former monastic candidates
Speaker 1: and the families of the boys in Miami was a
Speaker 1: choice both the defense and prosecution would make in the
Speaker 1: months after the murder. But what they didn't know was
Speaker 1: that Church Mutual Insurance was also eager for answers, and
Speaker 1: they were on step ahead on the way to Ukraine.
Speaker 1: That's coming up after a break. Welcome back to Sacred Scandal.
Speaker 1: In the weeks after me Hailokofil accused the priest at
Speaker 1: Holy Cross of sexual abuse, both his defense team and
Speaker 1: the prosecution started to look for any evidence of these claims,
Speaker 1: but the priests and monastic candidates were shielded by lawyers
Speaker 1: hired by the school's insurance company. With these obstacles preventing
Speaker 1: them from getting any clear answers, both teams decided that
Speaker 1: they would travel to Ukraine to talk to the monastic
Speaker 1: candidates who left and the families of those that were
Speaker 1: still in Miami, But before they could get there, a
Speaker 1: private investigator hired by Church Mutual Insurance would beat them
Speaker 1: to it. My name is Michael Zubas. I am recognized
Speaker 1: worldwide as a premise liability negligent security, crime prevention, security
Speaker 1: and police law enforcement agency Policies and Procedures expert. Zubas
Speaker 1: was actually called onto the scene from the moment the
Speaker 1: murder happened. He was a retired police chief from Miami
Speaker 1: Shoes and knew many of the officers already on the scene.
Speaker 1: He remained a part of the case as the murder
Speaker 1: evolved into the investigation of sexual abuse claims. Unlike the
Speaker 1: teams of Gail Avin and Edith Georgie, Zubas was granted
Speaker 1: unrestricted access to interview the monastic candidates of Holy Cross, and,
Speaker 1: like sex abuse cases at other churches, he would try
Speaker 1: to get to the bottom of their allegations. Is there
Speaker 1: any thing you look for, any signs, any like demeanor,
Speaker 1: any hints that the person that is being accused would
Speaker 1: actually be guilty. Well, I had a case and and
Speaker 1: the choir director was sodomizing young men that were in
Speaker 1: the choir. He groomed him and then he was having
Speaker 1: sex with three or four of them. And uh, some
Speaker 1: allegation came out from some parents. And then I interviewed
Speaker 1: these individuals and they broke down and confessed to me
Speaker 1: after a period of time, that this stuff was going on.
Speaker 1: And did they deny it first? Those boys? Oh? Yeah,
Speaker 1: because it's an embarrassing thing, you know. I mean, is
Speaker 1: there a chance that these monastic candidates may have denied
Speaker 1: it at first if they weren't really being pressed, or
Speaker 1: you didn't have enough time to keep going asking them.
Speaker 1: I think we had plenty of time, look nose, No,
Speaker 1: you can get sworn statements and interviewing them. I mean,
Speaker 1: you look him right in the eye, look him right
Speaker 1: in the face. I never detected any uh, any one
Speaker 1: of them lying. I never detected that. As a trained interrogator.
Speaker 1: There's all kinds of signs, and these boys, not one
Speaker 1: of them ever portrayed that they were being disingenuous. I
Speaker 1: just never got that at all. Maybe somebody else had different,
Speaker 1: you know, thoughts, but me I didn't. After speaking to
Speaker 1: the monastic candidate's at Holy Cross, Zula started to come
Speaker 1: to his own conclusions about the allegations against Father Went
Speaker 1: and Father Damien. As we were progressing along with our investigation,
Speaker 1: nothing was learned there that was in any way, shape
Speaker 1: or form could have involved the two priests the accusation
Speaker 1: made by Koful. There was no evidence that was discovered
Speaker 1: that in any way, shape or form implicated them in
Speaker 1: those allegations. But to be sure that those boys weren't
Speaker 1: leaving anything unsaid, the insurance company decided that Zubs still
Speaker 1: needed to dig deeper for the truth. There were, as
Speaker 1: I recall, four or five monk candidates they're at Holy
Speaker 1: Cross from the Ukraine. I guess whomever decided that it
Speaker 1: would probably be a good idea for me to go
Speaker 1: to the Ukraine and to locate the parents of all
Speaker 1: five of these monks and interview them to see whether
Speaker 1: or not they had ever received letters from their boys,
Speaker 1: our phone calls from their boys. And also there were
Speaker 1: a couple of that actually went back to the Ukraine
Speaker 1: for vacation, and while they were there, did they express
Speaker 1: any concern to throw an even linerity to what Kof
Speaker 1: was saying. Was there sexual abuse on the part of
Speaker 1: Abbot and Damien? And so that's what I did. Zuba says.
Speaker 1: Father went was helpful and getting things set up for
Speaker 1: him in Ukraine. The priest arranged for the private investigator
Speaker 1: to work with the same translator he used when traveling there.
Speaker 1: In two thousand one, Zubas would need a visa to
Speaker 1: enter the country. He told us that he also used
Speaker 1: to contact the father went to New Jersey to expedite
Speaker 1: that process. So no, Father Abbott was very helpful and
Speaker 1: very thrilled that I was going over there to seek
Speaker 1: out the truth. Can I ask you a question, do
Speaker 1: you think that that might be considered a conflict of interest?
Speaker 1: Thinking that the person who is accused of the allegations
Speaker 1: you're investigating is helping you, you know, secure an interpreter
Speaker 1: and helping you with your travel and all of that.
Speaker 1: Oh No, I wasn't considered a conflict of interest, uh
Speaker 1: or even unethical. I mean, he didn't take part in
Speaker 1: any of the interviews. He had not spoken to those
Speaker 1: parents that I detected prior to be getting there. They
Speaker 1: were the main focus. He didn't know who the driver
Speaker 1: was that was hired. He didn't know the attorney. I
Speaker 1: don't think, uh No, I did not view that as
Speaker 1: a conflict of interest at all. I viewed it as
Speaker 1: a very helpful thing because I was going to a
Speaker 1: place in the world where you don't just travel to
Speaker 1: and everything, kind of just like going to New York City.
Speaker 1: After getting his PISA, he flew from Miami to Paris
Speaker 1: and then onto Budapest in Hungary. A driver from Ukraine
Speaker 1: would meet up with him and they'd crossed the border
Speaker 1: into Transcarpathea. The following day off I went to a
Speaker 1: town called ouge Garad checked into the big hotel that's
Speaker 1: in that town, built by the Russians many many, many
Speaker 1: years ago, a very stark no hot water, no blankets,
Speaker 1: on the bed. It was a rough five nights I
Speaker 1: spent there in uz Garad Zuvis and his driver would
Speaker 1: then meet up with the translator and a local lawyer
Speaker 1: who would certify the statements he got from the families.
Speaker 1: We set out for the next five days, traveling all
Speaker 1: over the Ukraine, tracking families down and getting sworn statements
Speaker 1: from them. Here's another one here, it's uh Andrea her Stack.
Speaker 1: That's one of the sword ones. The other sworn one
Speaker 1: is um, I have a n etch semon yuk Yeah,
Speaker 1: if you don't mind it, Like even if they sound
Speaker 1: repetitive and they all say sort of the same thing,
Speaker 1: I'd like to hear different snippets. Well, here it is
Speaker 1: Alia her Stack. Stayed in all Across Monastery in Miami, Florida,
Speaker 1: with the aim to become a monk of the above
Speaker 1: monastery within November till August. During the above period of
Speaker 1: no pressure, either physical or moral, was displayed towards me,
Speaker 1: but I decided to leave my study there. The reason
Speaker 1: of it is my persuasion that I can never be
Speaker 1: a monk as far as I have no real vocation
Speaker 1: to go into church. Regarding Sister Michelle, I can say
Speaker 1: that She was very polite to all of us and
Speaker 1: deserves only respect for her honorable job. Neither Father Gregory
Speaker 1: nor Father Went never did me something that was wrong
Speaker 1: from the moral or physical point of view. They never
Speaker 1: told me things that made me feel uncomfortable. I never
Speaker 1: saw a witness of moral or physical abusing displayed by
Speaker 1: Father Gregory or Father Damien towards candidates of the monastery.
Speaker 1: The other one, this is uh Ivanovitch Semenyuk, lived at
Speaker 1: the monastery center village of consobo Uzgara District's comparta region
Speaker 1: by my own wish from two thousand July thirty one.
Speaker 1: As I am willing to be a clergyman. During my
Speaker 1: studies at the center, I have got acquainted with Gregory Went.
Speaker 1: He made the impression of a very good and respectable man.
Speaker 1: He manifested kindness and understanding towards me. He never humiliated
Speaker 1: me with words or deeds. There was no any sexual
Speaker 1: abuse towards me from his side. What concerns Father Damien,
Speaker 1: I have heard about him, but do not know him personally.
Speaker 1: The present statement is written by myself personally, with had
Speaker 1: any influence of a third person's and then the others
Speaker 1: are in Russian. Like this statement from Elia Hertzock and
Speaker 1: the other from the boy who was still in the
Speaker 1: monastic training center. All of the former candidates and parents
Speaker 1: in Ukraine were telling Zuba's the same thing. They never witnessed, experienced,
Speaker 1: or heard of any sexual abuse at Holy Cross. In
Speaker 1: interviewing the families of these monastic candidates, were the parents
Speaker 1: afraid or alarmed at what had happened? They didn't express
Speaker 1: that they were extremely thrilled and happy. They were thrilled
Speaker 1: that their sons had this opportunity to leave this desperate,
Speaker 1: horrible existence in the Ukraine. And when I say desperate horrible,
Speaker 1: it's pretty rough there in the Ukraine, and particularly these
Speaker 1: villages where I visited. I actually saw a seventy year
Speaker 1: old woman pulling a plow. Two males were pulling the plow,
Speaker 1: and she was guiding the plow and I asked where
Speaker 1: the tractor was. They said, the tractor they used the
Speaker 1: parts to bake bullets the Russians. And I said where's
Speaker 1: the mule and she said, we ate it. So that's
Speaker 1: the conditions that they live in there. And so these parents,
Speaker 1: they were thrilled that their boys had this opportunity to
Speaker 1: come to the United States of America, get an education,
Speaker 1: and become priests someday. That's like a dream come true
Speaker 1: for some of these families. The only place for Zula
Speaker 1: said he didn't feel the same excitement was in the
Speaker 1: village of Ovina Bistra by now the k Fills. Mike's
Speaker 1: parents were already aware that their son was in prison
Speaker 1: for killing sister Michelle, and the mother was um. She
Speaker 1: was very volatile. At first, she was spewing spit and
Speaker 1: yelling at me about her son being in jail, etcetera, etcetera.
Speaker 1: She was very angry, and then during the interview she
Speaker 1: actually turned around and went after her husband, Cofa's father
Speaker 1: and she started to accuse him of his abuse to
Speaker 1: when he was growing up in front of you, yes,
Speaker 1: in front of all of us. Yes, that he was
Speaker 1: harsh and he beat the kid and and did things
Speaker 1: like that to cause the boy to grow up. And
Speaker 1: maybe she was insinuating is why he did what he did.
Speaker 1: Did she mention anything about sexual abuse at all? I
Speaker 1: don't recall whether she actually narrowed it down to sexual abuse,
Speaker 1: and I don't think that she did. I believe she
Speaker 1: just spoke of just abuse that the father born on
Speaker 1: that child when he was growing up. He was a
Speaker 1: cocky little guy who actually was very cocky and nasty
Speaker 1: to me. Alcohol was involved there that because I remember
Speaker 1: him drinking that day when we were there. Did they
Speaker 1: know you were coming? Were they expecting you? No, they
Speaker 1: were not. Actually, some of these homes were very difficult
Speaker 1: to locate. I mean when we finally located it, it
Speaker 1: took us almost a half a day to find this house.
Speaker 1: And when we knocked on the door, they had north
Speaker 1: the idea who we were. But certainly it was explained
Speaker 1: to them, and they know their sons in jail in America,
Speaker 1: so it wasn't like we were from some outer space
Speaker 1: Mars or something. We had those credentials. So they did
Speaker 1: welcome us into the house because she kept screaming that
Speaker 1: she wanted us to help her son get out of
Speaker 1: prison and come home. That was her whole purpose of
Speaker 1: even talking to us. After sending off the lawyer to
Speaker 1: have the sworn statements notarized in Kiev, Zula's returned to
Speaker 1: the United States with no new evidence of sexual abuse
Speaker 1: at Holy Cross weeks later. By the time Edith Georgie
Speaker 1: and her defense team arrived in Ukraine. The tone around
Speaker 1: her client's childhood home changed after Mikailo's arrest. His father
Speaker 1: apparently stopped drinking and reformed himself, so when we were there,
Speaker 1: he was in good shape. And oh the parents were
Speaker 1: as cooperative as they could be. They felt like they'd
Speaker 1: been hoodwinked. Well, yeah, both of his parents told me.
Speaker 1: At the beginning, Abbott promised regular communication, they'd see him
Speaker 1: back frequently, and as it turned out, his mail was
Speaker 1: mon a turred. Phone calls were severely limited. He could
Speaker 1: only return to the Ukraine when he had to because
Speaker 1: of his passport or visa issues, and when he did
Speaker 1: come back, he was always accompanied by Abbott or Damien,
Speaker 1: who wouldn't let him out of their sight, under their
Speaker 1: control completely. The parents realized by the first time he
Speaker 1: came back that this was not what they bargained for,
Speaker 1: but he wasn't free to speak. They didn't know any better.
Speaker 1: Things were told to them that he was doing fine.
Speaker 1: The last time he visited, the parents and the local
Speaker 1: priest both well. They all noticed a real change in him,
Speaker 1: a real quietness, a real depression in him, and they
Speaker 1: tried to talk to him in their own way and
Speaker 1: see if maybe he wouldn't go back. But he didn't
Speaker 1: have the strength. He was under their control. Almost hypnotically.
Speaker 1: Both Edith's and the insurance company's investigator were in Ukraine
Speaker 1: looking for any shred of evidence about sexual abuse, and
Speaker 1: their team got a lot of the same answers. Though
Speaker 1: the defense was delayed in their travel, They were, however,
Speaker 1: able to spend more time with me Hilo, which gave
Speaker 1: them a different set of tools for investigating the claims
Speaker 1: of abuse. They could use what Mike told them about
Speaker 1: his experience and asked the former monastic can that it's
Speaker 1: more specific questions about things they may have noticed at
Speaker 1: the monastery. Edith believed that she'd found something when she
Speaker 1: spoke to Ilia Hertzog, who we heard from on our
Speaker 1: last few episodes. He was no longer a monk and
Speaker 1: living back in Ukraine. We investigator as much as we
Speaker 1: could the data that Mikhailo was giving us to see
Speaker 1: if it checked with what the other monk candidates would say,
Speaker 1: and it did. Ilia. We spent some time with and
Speaker 1: Ilia reported the same circumstances that Mikhaelo had described to
Speaker 1: us that would allow the opportunity to be there, that Mikhailo,
Speaker 1: only Mikailo, was allowed into Damien's room privately, and that
Speaker 1: Mikaylo was called in there frequently by Damien, and that
Speaker 1: Mikaelo was heard to go downstairs late at night after
Speaker 1: the other candidates were supposed to be in their rooms.
Speaker 1: You know, the dorm was run very military style. You
Speaker 1: could only be in your rooms at a certain time,
Speaker 1: but once you're in your room, you have to stay
Speaker 1: in your room until you have permission to come out.
Speaker 1: So everybody was kind of listening to see if people
Speaker 1: obeyed those rules. No one, of course, could ever say
Speaker 1: I saw it happen, because there were, as usual, no witnesses.
Speaker 1: But everything checked out, The whole picture checked out. It
Speaker 1: wasn't much, but it was something Edith could take back
Speaker 1: to Miami to try to build her defense. But even
Speaker 1: now Mike was still up against the death penalty. And
Speaker 1: not long after Edith and her team were gone, the
Speaker 1: third set of investigators arrived in trans Carpathia. This time
Speaker 1: it was Assistant State Attorney Gail Levine and Detective Larry
Speaker 1: Billyhu who originally heard me Hailo's confession. Why did it
Speaker 1: seem important? For your team to go to Ukraine. Well,
Speaker 1: he made an allegation and it started way back when,
Speaker 1: and that would have something to do with his sentencing
Speaker 1: over here. I would imagine. I traveled to the Ukraine
Speaker 1: where his parents were, and we introduced ourselves and we're
Speaker 1: very nice in the beginning. Yeah, we talked to them
Speaker 1: and the father said that, yeah, he would sleep in
Speaker 1: the baby with this sometime. I said, okay, well did
Speaker 1: you do anything to him? And he absolutely not. You know,
Speaker 1: because we had to go through an interpreter. What would
Speaker 1: you say your biggest takeaways where or did you find
Speaker 1: out anything that you didn't know in the Ukraine? No,
Speaker 1: not really. I assume once we approached them about were
Speaker 1: you molesting your child, all we got was he's slept
Speaker 1: in our beds sometimes nothing ever happened, and that's just
Speaker 1: the way it is. So I assumed they were going
Speaker 1: to deny and there's nothing I could have attacked them with.
Speaker 1: And that was pretty much the end of the story
Speaker 1: as far as the Ukraine. Both sides traveled halfway across
Speaker 1: the world without any explosive statements or concrete evidence that
Speaker 1: the sex abuse allegations were true. But like everything else,
Speaker 1: in this story, the biggest revelations were in the same
Speaker 1: place they always were, inside the monastery at Holy Cross.
Speaker 1: Stay with us, We'll be back after a break. Welcome
Speaker 1: back to Sacred Scandal. I'm Paula Burrows and I'm Melanie Bartley.
Speaker 1: After returning from Ukraine without a smoking gun, Edith Georgie's
Speaker 1: defense team needed to find something in Miami that would
Speaker 1: strengthen her insanity defense. To do that, her team had
Speaker 1: to solidify the sexual abuse allegations against the priests of
Speaker 1: Holy Cross. But with legal proceedings of capital cases usually
Speaker 1: taking years before going to trial, both sides were worried
Speaker 1: that they were up against the clock. They were concerned
Speaker 1: that once the monastic candidate's visas expired, they would return
Speaker 1: to Ukraine and be unable to appear as witnesses during
Speaker 1: a trial. So a judge gave permission to the poen
Speaker 1: of the monastic candidates and record videos of their testimony
Speaker 1: for future use, so we already had part of the
Speaker 1: trial in fact preserved. The month candidates had what's called
Speaker 1: perpetuated testimony, so we actually preserved their testimony to be
Speaker 1: used in the future for the defense. These testimonies were
Speaker 1: led by Edith and Ray tasse If her co counsel
Speaker 1: on the case, and these interviews would help inch the
Speaker 1: defense towards getting the information that we're looking for. They
Speaker 1: had been programmed to some degree, some more than others,
Speaker 1: and so you know, they all had little bits and
Speaker 1: pieces of information that added to the credibility of the
Speaker 1: story that mackay had told and of the unique contexts
Speaker 1: or environment that they were in in terms of isolation
Speaker 1: and thought control and behavioral control. What were those bits
Speaker 1: and pieces that you remember helping his case in that sense? Well,
Speaker 1: I remember details about when they traveled and Petro staying
Speaker 1: in the room with went. I thought that was highly unusual.
Speaker 1: The traveling Ray mentioned is something Mike told us about
Speaker 1: as well. Over the years, the priests would take the
Speaker 1: monastic candidates on trips. They went to Disney World, North Carolina, Naples,
Speaker 1: and Santa bell Island now in Santa Belle at the
Speaker 1: Holiday Inn. You stayed in a room with one of
Speaker 1: the other monastic candidates, correct, I think so noncons search.
Speaker 1: This is basil coop being asked about those trips. A
Speaker 1: bell father abbot stayed in a room and slept in
Speaker 1: the same room with Petro. Correct. Yeah, And you know
Speaker 1: on the trip to Santa Belle that Father Damion stayed
Speaker 1: with and slept in the same room with Mikailo. Correct.
Speaker 1: And you stayed in a room with one of the
Speaker 1: other manastic candidates correct. Okay. Now to the trip to
Speaker 1: North Carolina, you went again as a group. Correct. And
Speaker 1: in North Carolina you stayed in cabins. Correct. Okay, come
Speaker 1: in cabins. It was each individual little cabin where people stayed. Correct.
Speaker 1: We're staying country all of us poll book in London,
Speaker 1: I was in lond com Okay. Well, we know that
Speaker 1: Father Damion again slept in the same room m with
Speaker 1: with them. It's three bedrooms and Mona Captin, Somano and
Speaker 1: Cavanams and the Marvel and Diane Sash. So the trips
Speaker 1: to North Carolina, you stayed in a cabinet. There were
Speaker 1: three bedrooms. Correct, Father Damien and Mikailo stayed in a
Speaker 1: bedroom together and stopped in the same room. Correct. Father
Speaker 1: Abbot stayed in the same room and slept in the
Speaker 1: same room as the Petro. Correct. And you stayed in
Speaker 1: a bedroom with one of the other men, asked candidates. Correct,
Speaker 1: isn't it a fact in those bedrooms in that cabin
Speaker 1: in North Carolina, and each bedroom there was only one bed. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1: So in North Carolina, father Abbott and Petro stupped in
Speaker 1: the same bed correct. And in North Carolina Father Damia
Speaker 1: and Makilo slupped in the same bed correct. Ray and
Speaker 1: Edith also asked him and asked the candidates if they
Speaker 1: heard someone walking around their house at night after curfew,
Speaker 1: they remembered Mihilo told them he would be summoned to
Speaker 1: father Damien's room at that time. Now, as we've seen
Speaker 1: the pictures, you and three other candidates slept in the
Speaker 1: bedroom with the blond beds right slap to the bedroom
Speaker 1: with the four beds. Okay um, And that is very
Speaker 1: near the hallway where the stairway is. It's around stairway, yes, okay.
Speaker 1: And everyone had lights out of chat right to say
Speaker 1: we're not supposed to get up, right, you can't go
Speaker 1: You can get up to go to the bathroom. You
Speaker 1: don't have to ask the permission for that, right, But
Speaker 1: to go downstairs at the ten o'clock you need to
Speaker 1: have permission for father has it? Yeah, okay? And if
Speaker 1: you want to get that permission. You ask in advance
Speaker 1: if it's okay for you to go downstairs after ten o'clock. Right, So,
Speaker 1: as of ten o'clock everyone should be in their beds.
Speaker 1: You four in the room with the four beds, and
Speaker 1: Mikailo in his room a single room, and Pedro if
Speaker 1: he's sleeping there in his room right now. Many times
Speaker 1: during the night, you heard footsteps going up and down
Speaker 1: that stairway, didn't you, And you never fothered find out
Speaker 1: who that was or what was happening, did you? You
Speaker 1: knew it was either Mikayl or Petrol. Right, there's none
Speaker 1: of your for people got up and went downstairs. Yeah, yea,
Speaker 1: one of you guys are getting out. So it happen
Speaker 1: to be Mikailo or Petrol right the way Petro's room
Speaker 1: had separate entrance through another steroids, didn't it. So hearing
Speaker 1: these s footsteps going on the downstairs, and I'm talking
Speaker 1: about before March, before this horrible thing happened in March,
Speaker 1: you heard those footsteps many times, but you never found
Speaker 1: out why. Most of these testimonies took place about eight
Speaker 1: months after the murder at Holy Cross. By then, the
Speaker 1: biggest silence of all was from Father Went and Father Damien. Interestingly,
Speaker 1: Damien and Abbott moved off the campus and moved to
Speaker 1: another location as soon as this whole case broke because
Speaker 1: they didn't want to appear to be living with the
Speaker 1: young candidates anymore. They had to separate themselves. Aside from
Speaker 1: a few press releases sent out by a pr firm
Speaker 1: and letters to Holy Cross parents, the priest said little
Speaker 1: publicly about the murder or the allegations against them. Almost
Speaker 1: a year and a half after Mike was arrested, Gale
Speaker 1: and Edith were finally able to depost the priests. Father
Speaker 1: Went and Father Damien each appeared separately with their lawyer present,
Speaker 1: but on the advice of those lawyers, both priests refused
Speaker 1: to answer almost every single question they were asked. They
Speaker 1: resisted and pleaded the Fifth Amendment for hours. How did
Speaker 1: you get in touch with the boys in Ukraine? Fifth Amendment?
Speaker 1: Are you supporting them or their families in any way?
Speaker 1: Fifth Amendment? All of those types of things, you know,
Speaker 1: were questions that Ms Georgie was propound that really didn't
Speaker 1: have a whole lot to do with the murder, But
Speaker 1: in deposition in the discovery process allows her to build
Speaker 1: a defense for her client through the questions of state witnesses.
Speaker 1: So it wasn't an inappropriate questions, but it was just
Speaker 1: became a lot more suspicious with the taking of the
Speaker 1: Fifth Amendment. They went so far as to appeal the
Speaker 1: lower court, the trial court ruling that they had to
Speaker 1: answer the questions, and they set in motion and appeal
Speaker 1: and then we had to go back to court and
Speaker 1: the judge had to be present for the depositions, and
Speaker 1: the judge had a rule on every question before they
Speaker 1: answered the question. So instead of the deposition taking maybe
Speaker 1: eight hours or over the course of two days, maybe
Speaker 1: a course of over sixteen hours, the depositions took days,
Speaker 1: over the course of maybe five seven days. So by
Speaker 1: that point all the red flags were there and just
Speaker 1: more and more skeptical and more and more concerned about
Speaker 1: the safe of the kids there. From talking to the
Speaker 1: investigators on this case, we knew some of the details
Speaker 1: about these depositions, but because the sessions weren't recorded, we
Speaker 1: never got to hear them. So this year we request
Speaker 1: the transcripts of those conversations so we could get a
Speaker 1: sense of what sorts of questions the priests were avoiding.
Speaker 1: The documents are hundreds of pages long, and scrolling through
Speaker 1: them feels like an infinite loop of the same responses
Speaker 1: over and over again. So what we're looking at is
Speaker 1: the document. We're looking at the document that is the
Speaker 1: transcription of the entire questioning of Father Went. It is.
Speaker 1: So the first one is Father Went deposition from November
Speaker 1: two thousand and two. Yeah, and there is about two
Speaker 1: hundred pages in which he basically refuses to answer of
Speaker 1: the questions. It's really really bizarre. Um. Yeah, So so
Speaker 1: over here on page fifty four, they basically asked him
Speaker 1: why he decided to become a priest. Yeah, he said,
Speaker 1: relying upon the advice of my counsel due to the
Speaker 1: false allegations against me and my well founded fear that
Speaker 1: these unjust investigations could lead to unfair charges and prosecution.
Speaker 1: I am reluctantly forced to invoke privilege and refused to
Speaker 1: answer based on my constitutional rights guaranteed by the first
Speaker 1: fifth and fourteen Amendments. And it's crazy because I mean,
Speaker 1: I understand that if they ask him things about the
Speaker 1: sex abuse or anything like that, but it's like really basic,
Speaker 1: really basic questions, like like I want to ask you
Speaker 1: what is your current profession or occupation? I involved the
Speaker 1: privilege on the ground stated previously what do you do
Speaker 1: for a living? Same thing? And then the creeze see
Speaker 1: as to one I think is do you know what
Speaker 1: Holy Cross Monastery is? Fifth Amendment? What is Holy Cross Academy?
Speaker 1: Fifth Amendment? Where do you presently live same, same, same like?
Speaker 1: I mean, it's hundreds of pages. During these depositions with
Speaker 1: Father Wynn and Father Damien, Prosecutor Gail Levin started to
Speaker 1: notice something interesting happening between her side and the defense team.
Speaker 1: I've known miss Georgian for many years. She's a fine lawyer,
Speaker 1: but usually we're on opposite sides of the table. We
Speaker 1: found ourselves going into the deposition room and just sort
Speaker 1: of the way it was, we sat on the same
Speaker 1: side of the table and the priests would sit on
Speaker 1: the opposite side of the table. Usually my witnesses sit
Speaker 1: on the same side. After the second day we did that,
Speaker 1: I sort of looked at Miss Georgie and I said, Edith,
Speaker 1: we're on the same side of the table this time,
Speaker 1: and we sort of had a chuckle about that. And
Speaker 1: I think at that point during those depositions we knew
Speaker 1: that we had a very unique situation on our hands.
Speaker 1: As the case went on, Mike's lawyer, Edith felt like
Speaker 1: prosecutors were sitting on more than just her side of
Speaker 1: the table, and that even Gay Levine was starting to
Speaker 1: feel the same way about Mike's allegations. I absolutely believe
Speaker 1: he was sexually abused, and I believe that the prosecutor
Speaker 1: felt the same. In searching for those answers, both sides
Speaker 1: would stumble across another ongoing investigation into Holy Cross. In
Speaker 1: the years before the murder of Sister Michelle, the monastery's
Speaker 1: own bishop reached out to the Vatican. The bishop was
Speaker 1: trying to find out whether father went and Father Damien,
Speaker 1: we're really priests at all. We'll go there next time
Speaker 1: on Sacred's handle. Sacred Scandal is a production of Exile
Speaker 1: Content Studio in partnership with I Heart Radio is Mike
Speaker 1: la Podcast Network. Sacred Scandal was created and produced by
Speaker 1: Melanie Bartley and me Paula Barros. Our senior producer is
Speaker 1: Dennis Funk of Written in Air. The executive producers are
Speaker 1: Rose Red and Nando Villa. Production mixing and sound design
Speaker 1: by Helena de Grout, our production assistant is Imani Leonard.
Speaker 1: The show is fact checked by Kimberly Winston. Original music
Speaker 1: and final audio mixing comes from Patrick Hart, and special
Speaker 1: thanks on this episode to Ariel Stevenson, Corey Chikowski, and
Speaker 1: Travis Royd. If you'd like to reach out, email us
Speaker 1: at hello at Sacred Scandal podcast dot com, and you
Speaker 1: can follow us on Instagram at Sacred Scandal m