WEBVTT - A New Investigation 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:11.240 I'm Paula Barrows and I'm Melanie Bartley, and this sacred scandal. 0:00:12.160 --> 0:00:15.080 I believe Mikhailo was sexually abused by the priests. If 0:00:15.080 --> 0:00:18.920 he says that it has happened, it happened. That never 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:22.960 seemed like an option to me. It's hard to accept, 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:27.280 you know, and I believe it now. I mean, what 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:30.600 me Hilo did was so awful, like their hats have 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:35.880 done something to make that come out of him. Obviously, again, 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:39.960 we don't know what happened, but we never saw anything, 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:45.800 We never felt anything. Do I think it's a possibility. Absolutely, 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:49.000 I totally think it's possible. Do I know for sure 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:52.199 if that happened. No, and I will never know the 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:56.560 sexual accusations of his abuse, for one thing, we never 0:00:56.600 --> 0:01:13.119 heard anything. Never, It never happened. The initial evidence around 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:17.680 the campus of Holy Cross painted a picture of premeditated murder, 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:24.200 and certain things clearly stood out. The knife used in 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:26.600 the murder was part of a matching set from the 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:30.280 house at Barry University. Mike would need to bring that 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:33.880 with him days before the murder. There were also the 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:36.919 gloves and unused roll of duct tape he showed police 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:40.520 when they returned to the scene, and then there were 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:44.800 those odd, bloody footprints across campus. They looked like a 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:49.440 shapeless mudge because Mike only wore socks that night, maybe 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:51.520 as a way to keep his steps from being heard. 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:55.920 This evidence, plus Mike's own admission to the murder of 0:01:55.920 --> 0:01:59.960 sister Michelle Lewis, mentors life was now destined for why 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:06.400 of two paths, life in prison or death row. But 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:08.720 the sexual abuse he alleged was happening to him at 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:12.160 Holy Cross could give his court appointed public defense team 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:15.720 another route to take to trial. If they could prove 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:18.720 that Mike was sexually abused and that it had truly 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:22.520 put him in an uncontrolled murderous rage, they would be 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:26.799 able to put together an insanity defense. That defense would 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:30.240 argue that Mike committed his crime because the alleged abuse 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:34.120 caused him to act irrationally and lose his ability to 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:37.519 determine right from wrong. To do that, the defense would 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:39.960 need to corroborate Mike's claims and try to prove that 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:43.880 he was telling the truth. So now both sides would 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:47.560 start compiling evidence to complete their sides of the story. 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:51.640 The defense would start building their case at the source 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:59.960 of those allegations Mihilo co fil When Mikhailo made allegations 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:05.480 of sexual abuse, I realized it was rather critical to 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:12.440 be very careful about revealing these allegations and incorporating them 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:15.240 as part of our defense if I didn't check them out. 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:18.600 This is Edith Georgie, who spent thirty five years as 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:22.040 an attorney with the Miami Dade Public Defender's Office. Edith 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:27.640 would lead Mike's defense team. We had Mikhailo polygraphed by 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:33.120 an independent person who's highly acclaimed, well respected. He passed, 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:36.120 and one of the first things I did was bring 0:03:36.200 --> 0:03:40.680 down an expert that we've known for years from outside 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:44.560 of the state, who's very highly acclaimed person, and he 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:49.240 has tremendous experience with victims of violence. And I said, 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:52.960 do whatever you need to work with Mr ko Fell 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:56.000 and give me a report as to whether you think 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:59.800 the allegations are valid or not, because I don't want 0:03:59.840 --> 0:04:02.520 to put them out there in any way, shape or 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:06.920 form if I don't believe them. And he was tested 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.800 for about four or five days, and this expert reported 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:15.400 to me that he absolutely believed what Mikaylo was saying. 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:18.359 The manner in which he expressed at the detail in 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:23.720 which he reported it, and in fact, this expert was 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:33.160 aghast at how sophisticated and horrific these so called fathers were. 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:39.960 But even the findings of these experts would not be 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:42.280 enough for the defense to fully prove that Mike was 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:45.800 telling the truth about his abuse. To get that information, 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:49.279 both the prosecution and Mike's lawyers would need to speak 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:53.200 with the monks and priests of Holy Cross, but that 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:59.479 would not be easy. There was an edict sent out 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:05.680 from Father Abbot and his counsel from the beginning that 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:10.440 no one was to speak with anyone from the outside, 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:17.520 meaning lawyers, investigators, police without an attorney present. Generally, in 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:21.640 a case like this where our client has friends and 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:26.320 associates in the community, we will immediately send out an 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:30.040 investigator to go to the location of those people, and 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:34.039 often people will speak to us and want to speak 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:39.560 to us voluntarily. In this case, they were forbidden to 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:48.040 do so by Father Abbot. At this point, Holy Crosses 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:53.080 Insurance Company stepped in as well. Church Mutual Insurance, which 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:58.120 covers religious organizations and handles liability cases for them, provided 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:02.679 lawyers for the monastic candidates and priests of Holy Cross 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:07.160 each monastic candidate, as I recall, was given his own lawyer, 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:12.200 so we had a about six lawyers. I think there 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:17.080 were four monastic candidates and Father Abbot and Father Damien 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:22.360 all Um funded by the insurance company. I believe that 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:26.919 funds and he claims against the school, and all of 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:30.280 these layers of lawyers made it difficult for Edith's team 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:35.080 to get any corroborating information from inside the school. I'd 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:39.680 say that I have never seen in my years doing 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:43.640 this kind of work any group who have been less 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:47.800 cooperative with the police, and to have a school not 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:52.560 allow police, and to have a school monitor every single 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:58.080 move that was made. The warnings that Father Abbott gave 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:00.719 he did not allow the monastic can it is to speak, 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:04.920 or anyone to speak voluntarily. Everything had to be pursuant 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:07.840 to a subpoena. But he warned them in a very 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:13.440 dramatic tone that they should not speak about anything personal 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:18.160 if they were asked anything personal. And from the beginning 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:22.960 it was clear that Father Abbott was concerned about what 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:28.680 might be coming out, which I found quite curious. Now 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:38.520 what would he be worried about, But there was something 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:41.600 to worry about. Soon after, Mike made the allegations of 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:45.400 sexual assault against father Went and father Damien. A sex 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:50.240 crime case was opened, and Gail Levine, the lead prosecutor 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:53.000 in the murder case, would also play a role here 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:57.000 and come up against those same challenges as the defense. 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:02.960 Immediately upon mc calo Cofel giving a statement to police 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:07.000 that he had been sexually abused at the Holy Cross Academy, 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:11.440 as law enforcement, we became extremely concerned about the other 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:15.760 children that were there. There were four other people under 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:19.280 the age of eighteen that were residing there. There was 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:23.560 one person over the age of eighteen. We wanted to 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:28.040 make sure that no one else was being heard. What 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:34.360 we immediately encountered was resistance, resistance from getting any contact 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:39.240 with the monastic candidates from the Ukraine. So we tried 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:42.520 very hard and I assembled a team to be available 0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:46.800 on one day during one afternoon when all four of 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:53.200 us could begin by interviewing those four Ukrainian nationals. Immediately 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:56.560 we were given notice that a legal team had been 0:08:56.600 --> 0:09:00.400 assembled and none of those students would come to the 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:05.120 State Attorney's office without subpoenas and without the presence of 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:09.320 their lawyers. What we thought was so shocking was really 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:12.640 within thirty six hours, a legal team had been assembled, 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:17.800 and police couldn't even go out and gather the witnesses 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:22.439 or the possible victims up, you know, and get information 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:27.040 about them and what was going on. We were prohibited 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:29.920 from doing that, and we were prohibited for several days, 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:34.719 and that made us more concerned, very concerned that they 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:37.000 were going to be told what to say and what 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:44.600 to do. When the legal teams finally did get subpoenas 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:48.000 to speak with the monastic candidates, they were surprised by 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:50.880 the demeanor of the boys. When we did get a 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:55.000 chance to meet those children, it was to us shocking 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:59.760 what we saw. They were clearly well groomed. They appeared thin, 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:05.200 but not malnourished, pale as if they hadn't seen the 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:10.440 Florida sun at all, and they were rigidly dressed white shirts, 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:15.160 black pants, black shoes. They certainly didn't come across as 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:22.120 teenage boys. They came across as small robots. They spoke 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:31.600 beautifully and clearly, but with a specific cadence in their voice. 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:35.680 When you asked them, do you know the difference between 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:40.760 good touching and bad touching? They would say, yes, did 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:45.400 anybody touch you in a bad place. No, how do 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:52.360 you like living at the monastery? Very good, Everything's fine. 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:56.720 So it was a matter of lack of a better word, 0:10:56.760 --> 0:11:02.160 pulling teeth. We got nothing out of them, and the 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:05.960 lawyers from Church Mutual Insurance complicated things for the teams 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:10.280 investigating Mike's claims of sexual abuse. Here's Gail Avine again. 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:15.319 They were a huge insurance company. They provide the best 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:21.640 representation and they tangled a web that was very hard 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:26.040 for us to untangle. Every kid had an excellent lawyer. 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:28.520 Now I don't know what was done before the kid 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:30.120 got to me, but by the time the kid got 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:31.680 to me, the kid was schooled in what to say. 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:35.440 Nothing happened to me. So that's why I went to Ukraine. 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:38.439 I got permission from the State Department to go to Ukraine, 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:42.760 where these people were not represented by anybody. This decision 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:45.520 to go to Ukraine to speak with former monastic candidates 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:48.000 and the families of the boys in Miami was a 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:51.080 choice both the defense and prosecution would make in the 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:55.040 months after the murder. But what they didn't know was 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:59.440 that Church Mutual Insurance was also eager for answers, and 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:02.080 they were on step ahead on the way to Ukraine. 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:22.199 That's coming up after a break. Welcome back to Sacred Scandal. 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:31.080 In the weeks after me Hailokofil accused the priest at 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:34.640 Holy Cross of sexual abuse, both his defense team and 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:38.040 the prosecution started to look for any evidence of these claims, 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:42.040 but the priests and monastic candidates were shielded by lawyers 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:46.320 hired by the school's insurance company. With these obstacles preventing 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:50.400 them from getting any clear answers, both teams decided that 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:53.320 they would travel to Ukraine to talk to the monastic 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:56.240 candidates who left and the families of those that were 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:59.760 still in Miami, But before they could get there, a 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:04.280 private investigator hired by Church Mutual Insurance would beat them 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:10.080 to it. My name is Michael Zubas. I am recognized 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:17.199 worldwide as a premise liability negligent security, crime prevention, security 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:22.400 and police law enforcement agency Policies and Procedures expert. Zubas 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:24.760 was actually called onto the scene from the moment the 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:28.280 murder happened. He was a retired police chief from Miami 0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:31.720 Shoes and knew many of the officers already on the scene. 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:34.160 He remained a part of the case as the murder 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:39.560 evolved into the investigation of sexual abuse claims. Unlike the 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:43.160 teams of Gail Avin and Edith Georgie, Zubas was granted 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:48.120 unrestricted access to interview the monastic candidates of Holy Cross, and, 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:51.920 like sex abuse cases at other churches, he would try 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:56.000 to get to the bottom of their allegations. Is there 0:13:56.040 --> 0:14:00.880 any thing you look for, any signs, any like demeanor, 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:04.960 any hints that the person that is being accused would 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:11.280 actually be guilty. Well, I had a case and and 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:16.600 the choir director was sodomizing young men that were in 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:19.560 the choir. He groomed him and then he was having 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:24.040 sex with three or four of them. And uh, some 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:27.239 allegation came out from some parents. And then I interviewed 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:32.080 these individuals and they broke down and confessed to me 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:35.240 after a period of time, that this stuff was going on. 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:38.800 And did they deny it first? Those boys? Oh? Yeah, 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:41.480 because it's an embarrassing thing, you know. I mean, is 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:44.000 there a chance that these monastic candidates may have denied 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:46.200 it at first if they weren't really being pressed, or 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:50.160 you didn't have enough time to keep going asking them. 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:53.040 I think we had plenty of time, look nose, No, 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:57.640 you can get sworn statements and interviewing them. I mean, 0:14:57.640 --> 0:14:59.040 you look him right in the eye, look him right 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:03.640 in the face. I never detected any uh, any one 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:08.200 of them lying. I never detected that. As a trained interrogator. 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:12.840 There's all kinds of signs, and these boys, not one 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:18.720 of them ever portrayed that they were being disingenuous. I 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:24.760 just never got that at all. Maybe somebody else had different, 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:32.600 you know, thoughts, but me I didn't. After speaking to 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:36.360 the monastic candidate's at Holy Cross, Zula started to come 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:39.960 to his own conclusions about the allegations against Father Went 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:44.920 and Father Damien. As we were progressing along with our investigation, 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:49.960 nothing was learned there that was in any way, shape 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:54.440 or form could have involved the two priests the accusation 0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:59.360 made by Koful. There was no evidence that was discovered 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:02.240 that in any way, shape or form implicated them in 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:07.920 those allegations. But to be sure that those boys weren't 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:12.960 leaving anything unsaid, the insurance company decided that Zubs still 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:16.400 needed to dig deeper for the truth. There were, as 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:21.320 I recall, four or five monk candidates they're at Holy 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:25.960 Cross from the Ukraine. I guess whomever decided that it 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:30.880 would probably be a good idea for me to go 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:36.280 to the Ukraine and to locate the parents of all 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:40.760 five of these monks and interview them to see whether 0:16:40.880 --> 0:16:44.680 or not they had ever received letters from their boys, 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:49.120 our phone calls from their boys. And also there were 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:51.840 a couple of that actually went back to the Ukraine 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:56.880 for vacation, and while they were there, did they express 0:16:56.960 --> 0:17:01.480 any concern to throw an even linerity to what Kof 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:05.840 was saying. Was there sexual abuse on the part of 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:14.480 Abbot and Damien? And so that's what I did. Zuba says. 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:17.159 Father went was helpful and getting things set up for 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:21.440 him in Ukraine. The priest arranged for the private investigator 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:24.760 to work with the same translator he used when traveling there. 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:28.520 In two thousand one, Zubas would need a visa to 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:31.800 enter the country. He told us that he also used 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:34.960 to contact the father went to New Jersey to expedite 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:39.480 that process. So no, Father Abbott was very helpful and 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.520 very thrilled that I was going over there to seek 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:45.320 out the truth. Can I ask you a question, do 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:48.200 you think that that might be considered a conflict of interest? 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:52.920 Thinking that the person who is accused of the allegations 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:58.480 you're investigating is helping you, you know, secure an interpreter 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:01.240 and helping you with your travel and all of that. 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:06.320 Oh No, I wasn't considered a conflict of interest, uh 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:10.000 or even unethical. I mean, he didn't take part in 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:13.280 any of the interviews. He had not spoken to those 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:17.080 parents that I detected prior to be getting there. They 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:19.920 were the main focus. He didn't know who the driver 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:23.159 was that was hired. He didn't know the attorney. I 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:26.239 don't think, uh No, I did not view that as 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:28.480 a conflict of interest at all. I viewed it as 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:31.119 a very helpful thing because I was going to a 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:33.879 place in the world where you don't just travel to 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:36.560 and everything, kind of just like going to New York City. 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:42.159 After getting his PISA, he flew from Miami to Paris 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:46.679 and then onto Budapest in Hungary. A driver from Ukraine 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:48.720 would meet up with him and they'd crossed the border 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:53.200 into Transcarpathea. The following day off I went to a 0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:57.280 town called ouge Garad checked into the big hotel that's 0:18:57.280 --> 0:19:00.400 in that town, built by the Russians many many, many 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:05.240 years ago, a very stark no hot water, no blankets, 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:08.399 on the bed. It was a rough five nights I 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:12.880 spent there in uz Garad Zuvis and his driver would 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:15.919 then meet up with the translator and a local lawyer 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:18.920 who would certify the statements he got from the families. 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:23.760 We set out for the next five days, traveling all 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:28.520 over the Ukraine, tracking families down and getting sworn statements 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:37.119 from them. Here's another one here, it's uh Andrea her Stack. 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:41.320 That's one of the sword ones. The other sworn one 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:46.160 is um, I have a n etch semon yuk Yeah, 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:48.720 if you don't mind it, Like even if they sound 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:51.480 repetitive and they all say sort of the same thing, 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:56.679 I'd like to hear different snippets. Well, here it is 0:19:56.840 --> 0:20:02.760 Alia her Stack. Stayed in all Across Monastery in Miami, Florida, 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:05.720 with the aim to become a monk of the above 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:12.960 monastery within November till August. During the above period of 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:17.320 no pressure, either physical or moral, was displayed towards me, 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:21.000 but I decided to leave my study there. The reason 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:24.720 of it is my persuasion that I can never be 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:27.960 a monk as far as I have no real vocation 0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:32.960 to go into church. Regarding Sister Michelle, I can say 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:35.879 that She was very polite to all of us and 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:41.520 deserves only respect for her honorable job. Neither Father Gregory 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:45.479 nor Father Went never did me something that was wrong 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:49.280 from the moral or physical point of view. They never 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:52.720 told me things that made me feel uncomfortable. I never 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:57.920 saw a witness of moral or physical abusing displayed by 0:20:58.000 --> 0:21:02.520 Father Gregory or Father Damien towards candidates of the monastery. 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:14.159 The other one, this is uh Ivanovitch Semenyuk, lived at 0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:20.399 the monastery center village of consobo Uzgara District's comparta region 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:24.320 by my own wish from two thousand July thirty one. 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:27.000 As I am willing to be a clergyman. During my 0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:31.600 studies at the center, I have got acquainted with Gregory Went. 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:36.000 He made the impression of a very good and respectable man. 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:41.960 He manifested kindness and understanding towards me. He never humiliated 0:21:42.000 --> 0:21:46.320 me with words or deeds. There was no any sexual 0:21:46.359 --> 0:21:50.920 abuse towards me from his side. What concerns Father Damien, 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:55.600 I have heard about him, but do not know him personally. 0:21:56.240 --> 0:22:00.119 The present statement is written by myself personally, with had 0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:03.600 any influence of a third person's and then the others 0:22:03.600 --> 0:22:11.639 are in Russian. Like this statement from Elia Hertzock and 0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:13.199 the other from the boy who was still in the 0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:17.159 monastic training center. All of the former candidates and parents 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:22.560 in Ukraine were telling Zuba's the same thing. They never witnessed, experienced, 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:27.080 or heard of any sexual abuse at Holy Cross. In 0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:31.520 interviewing the families of these monastic candidates, were the parents 0:22:31.760 --> 0:22:36.920 afraid or alarmed at what had happened? They didn't express 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:41.560 that they were extremely thrilled and happy. They were thrilled 0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:47.359 that their sons had this opportunity to leave this desperate, 0:22:48.359 --> 0:22:53.040 horrible existence in the Ukraine. And when I say desperate horrible, 0:22:53.800 --> 0:22:56.440 it's pretty rough there in the Ukraine, and particularly these 0:22:56.520 --> 0:23:00.800 villages where I visited. I actually saw a seventy year 0:23:00.840 --> 0:23:06.000 old woman pulling a plow. Two males were pulling the plow, 0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:09.320 and she was guiding the plow and I asked where 0:23:09.359 --> 0:23:12.920 the tractor was. They said, the tractor they used the 0:23:13.000 --> 0:23:16.280 parts to bake bullets the Russians. And I said where's 0:23:16.320 --> 0:23:19.000 the mule and she said, we ate it. So that's 0:23:19.000 --> 0:23:23.160 the conditions that they live in there. And so these parents, 0:23:23.960 --> 0:23:27.879 they were thrilled that their boys had this opportunity to 0:23:27.960 --> 0:23:31.719 come to the United States of America, get an education, 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:35.720 and become priests someday. That's like a dream come true 0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:42.320 for some of these families. The only place for Zula 0:23:42.359 --> 0:23:45.159 said he didn't feel the same excitement was in the 0:23:45.280 --> 0:23:50.000 village of Ovina Bistra by now the k Fills. Mike's 0:23:50.000 --> 0:23:53.080 parents were already aware that their son was in prison 0:23:53.520 --> 0:23:59.480 for killing sister Michelle, and the mother was um. She 0:23:59.600 --> 0:24:05.280 was very volatile. At first, she was spewing spit and 0:24:05.400 --> 0:24:10.960 yelling at me about her son being in jail, etcetera, etcetera. 0:24:11.640 --> 0:24:14.840 She was very angry, and then during the interview she 0:24:14.920 --> 0:24:19.680 actually turned around and went after her husband, Cofa's father 0:24:20.320 --> 0:24:25.000 and she started to accuse him of his abuse to 0:24:26.400 --> 0:24:29.200 when he was growing up in front of you, yes, 0:24:29.320 --> 0:24:31.879 in front of all of us. Yes, that he was 0:24:32.520 --> 0:24:35.680 harsh and he beat the kid and and did things 0:24:35.720 --> 0:24:38.560 like that to cause the boy to grow up. And 0:24:38.680 --> 0:24:42.320 maybe she was insinuating is why he did what he did. 0:24:43.200 --> 0:24:47.520 Did she mention anything about sexual abuse at all? I 0:24:47.600 --> 0:24:52.760 don't recall whether she actually narrowed it down to sexual abuse, 0:24:53.480 --> 0:24:55.440 and I don't think that she did. I believe she 0:24:55.600 --> 0:25:01.080 just spoke of just abuse that the father born on 0:25:01.160 --> 0:25:03.359 that child when he was growing up. He was a 0:25:03.400 --> 0:25:07.040 cocky little guy who actually was very cocky and nasty 0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:13.119 to me. Alcohol was involved there that because I remember 0:25:13.200 --> 0:25:15.400 him drinking that day when we were there. Did they 0:25:15.400 --> 0:25:19.159 know you were coming? Were they expecting you? No, they 0:25:19.640 --> 0:25:23.919 were not. Actually, some of these homes were very difficult 0:25:24.000 --> 0:25:27.320 to locate. I mean when we finally located it, it 0:25:27.320 --> 0:25:29.520 took us almost a half a day to find this house. 0:25:30.320 --> 0:25:33.320 And when we knocked on the door, they had north 0:25:33.400 --> 0:25:36.800 the idea who we were. But certainly it was explained 0:25:36.800 --> 0:25:39.120 to them, and they know their sons in jail in America, 0:25:39.760 --> 0:25:42.520 so it wasn't like we were from some outer space 0:25:43.400 --> 0:25:47.040 Mars or something. We had those credentials. So they did 0:25:47.119 --> 0:25:51.680 welcome us into the house because she kept screaming that 0:25:52.040 --> 0:25:54.639 she wanted us to help her son get out of 0:25:54.680 --> 0:25:58.359 prison and come home. That was her whole purpose of 0:25:58.400 --> 0:26:04.840 even talking to us. After sending off the lawyer to 0:26:04.880 --> 0:26:08.840 have the sworn statements notarized in Kiev, Zula's returned to 0:26:08.880 --> 0:26:12.280 the United States with no new evidence of sexual abuse 0:26:12.400 --> 0:26:17.960 at Holy Cross weeks later. By the time Edith Georgie 0:26:17.960 --> 0:26:21.320 and her defense team arrived in Ukraine. The tone around 0:26:21.320 --> 0:26:27.800 her client's childhood home changed after Mikailo's arrest. His father 0:26:28.160 --> 0:26:33.320 apparently stopped drinking and reformed himself, so when we were there, 0:26:34.200 --> 0:26:38.080 he was in good shape. And oh the parents were 0:26:38.080 --> 0:26:42.520 as cooperative as they could be. They felt like they'd 0:26:42.560 --> 0:26:48.439 been hoodwinked. Well, yeah, both of his parents told me. 0:26:48.480 --> 0:26:53.840 At the beginning, Abbott promised regular communication, they'd see him 0:26:53.880 --> 0:26:59.560 back frequently, and as it turned out, his mail was 0:26:59.680 --> 0:27:05.720 mon a turred. Phone calls were severely limited. He could 0:27:05.720 --> 0:27:09.920 only return to the Ukraine when he had to because 0:27:09.920 --> 0:27:12.960 of his passport or visa issues, and when he did 0:27:13.040 --> 0:27:17.920 come back, he was always accompanied by Abbott or Damien, 0:27:17.920 --> 0:27:20.880 who wouldn't let him out of their sight, under their 0:27:20.920 --> 0:27:25.960 control completely. The parents realized by the first time he 0:27:26.040 --> 0:27:30.520 came back that this was not what they bargained for, 0:27:32.280 --> 0:27:36.200 but he wasn't free to speak. They didn't know any better. 0:27:37.280 --> 0:27:40.840 Things were told to them that he was doing fine. 0:27:41.480 --> 0:27:45.879 The last time he visited, the parents and the local 0:27:45.920 --> 0:27:49.439 priest both well. They all noticed a real change in him, 0:27:49.480 --> 0:27:53.400 a real quietness, a real depression in him, and they 0:27:53.440 --> 0:27:56.959 tried to talk to him in their own way and 0:27:57.000 --> 0:28:01.200 see if maybe he wouldn't go back. But he didn't 0:28:01.200 --> 0:28:06.840 have the strength. He was under their control. Almost hypnotically. 0:28:08.720 --> 0:28:12.520 Both Edith's and the insurance company's investigator were in Ukraine 0:28:12.520 --> 0:28:16.280 looking for any shred of evidence about sexual abuse, and 0:28:16.359 --> 0:28:19.520 their team got a lot of the same answers. Though 0:28:19.520 --> 0:28:22.480 the defense was delayed in their travel, They were, however, 0:28:23.080 --> 0:28:25.360 able to spend more time with me Hilo, which gave 0:28:25.400 --> 0:28:27.840 them a different set of tools for investigating the claims 0:28:27.880 --> 0:28:30.840 of abuse. They could use what Mike told them about 0:28:30.920 --> 0:28:33.600 his experience and asked the former monastic can that it's 0:28:33.680 --> 0:28:36.959 more specific questions about things they may have noticed at 0:28:36.960 --> 0:28:40.960 the monastery. Edith believed that she'd found something when she 0:28:41.000 --> 0:28:44.080 spoke to Ilia Hertzog, who we heard from on our 0:28:44.160 --> 0:28:47.480 last few episodes. He was no longer a monk and 0:28:47.600 --> 0:28:52.200 living back in Ukraine. We investigator as much as we 0:28:52.320 --> 0:28:56.240 could the data that Mikhailo was giving us to see 0:28:56.280 --> 0:29:00.000 if it checked with what the other monk candidates would say, 0:29:00.920 --> 0:29:06.240 and it did. Ilia. We spent some time with and 0:29:06.360 --> 0:29:12.440 Ilia reported the same circumstances that Mikhaelo had described to 0:29:12.520 --> 0:29:17.080 us that would allow the opportunity to be there, that Mikhailo, 0:29:17.240 --> 0:29:21.480 only Mikailo, was allowed into Damien's room privately, and that 0:29:21.560 --> 0:29:25.600