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Speaker 1: I'm Paula Barrows and I'm Melanie Bartley, and this sacred scandal.

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Speaker 1: I believe Mikhailo was sexually abused by the priests. If

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Speaker 1: he says that it has happened, it happened. That never

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Speaker 1: seemed like an option to me. It's hard to accept,

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Speaker 1: you know, and I believe it now. I mean, what

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Speaker 1: me Hilo did was so awful, like their hats have

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Speaker 1: done something to make that come out of him. Obviously, again,

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Speaker 1: we don't know what happened, but we never saw anything,

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Speaker 1: We never felt anything. Do I think it's a possibility. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: I totally think it's possible. Do I know for sure

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Speaker 1: if that happened. No, and I will never know the

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Speaker 1: sexual accusations of his abuse, for one thing, we never

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Speaker 1: heard anything. Never, It never happened. The initial evidence around

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Speaker 1: the campus of Holy Cross painted a picture of premeditated murder,

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Speaker 1: and certain things clearly stood out. The knife used in

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Speaker 1: the murder was part of a matching set from the

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Speaker 1: house at Barry University. Mike would need to bring that

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Speaker 1: with him days before the murder. There were also the

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Speaker 1: gloves and unused roll of duct tape he showed police

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Speaker 1: when they returned to the scene, and then there were

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Speaker 1: those odd, bloody footprints across campus. They looked like a

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Speaker 1: shapeless mudge because Mike only wore socks that night, maybe

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Speaker 1: as a way to keep his steps from being heard.

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Speaker 1: This evidence, plus Mike's own admission to the murder of

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Speaker 1: sister Michelle Lewis, mentors life was now destined for why

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Speaker 1: of two paths, life in prison or death row. But

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Speaker 1: the sexual abuse he alleged was happening to him at

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Speaker 1: Holy Cross could give his court appointed public defense team

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Speaker 1: another route to take to trial. If they could prove

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Speaker 1: that Mike was sexually abused and that it had truly

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Speaker 1: put him in an uncontrolled murderous rage, they would be

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Speaker 1: able to put together an insanity defense. That defense would

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Speaker 1: argue that Mike committed his crime because the alleged abuse

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Speaker 1: caused him to act irrationally and lose his ability to

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Speaker 1: determine right from wrong. To do that, the defense would

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Speaker 1: need to corroborate Mike's claims and try to prove that

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Speaker 1: he was telling the truth. So now both sides would

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Speaker 1: start compiling evidence to complete their sides of the story.

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Speaker 1: The defense would start building their case at the source

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Speaker 1: of those allegations Mihilo co fil When Mikhailo made allegations

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Speaker 1: of sexual abuse, I realized it was rather critical to

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Speaker 1: be very careful about revealing these allegations and incorporating them

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Speaker 1: as part of our defense if I didn't check them out.

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Speaker 1: This is Edith Georgie, who spent thirty five years as

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Speaker 1: an attorney with the Miami Dade Public Defender's Office. Edith

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Speaker 1: would lead Mike's defense team. We had Mikhailo polygraphed by

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Speaker 1: an independent person who's highly acclaimed, well respected. He passed,

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Speaker 1: and one of the first things I did was bring

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Speaker 1: down an expert that we've known for years from outside

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Speaker 1: of the state, who's very highly acclaimed person, and he

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Speaker 1: has tremendous experience with victims of violence. And I said,

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Speaker 1: do whatever you need to work with Mr ko Fell

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Speaker 1: and give me a report as to whether you think

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Speaker 1: the allegations are valid or not, because I don't want

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Speaker 1: to put them out there in any way, shape or

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Speaker 1: form if I don't believe them. And he was tested

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Speaker 1: for about four or five days, and this expert reported

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Speaker 1: to me that he absolutely believed what Mikaylo was saying.

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Speaker 1: The manner in which he expressed at the detail in

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Speaker 1: which he reported it, and in fact, this expert was

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Speaker 1: aghast at how sophisticated and horrific these so called fathers were.

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Speaker 1: But even the findings of these experts would not be

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Speaker 1: enough for the defense to fully prove that Mike was

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Speaker 1: telling the truth about his abuse. To get that information,

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Speaker 1: both the prosecution and Mike's lawyers would need to speak

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Speaker 1: with the monks and priests of Holy Cross, but that

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Speaker 1: would not be easy. There was an edict sent out

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Speaker 1: from Father Abbot and his counsel from the beginning that

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Speaker 1: no one was to speak with anyone from the outside,

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Speaker 1: meaning lawyers, investigators, police without an attorney present. Generally, in

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Speaker 1: a case like this where our client has friends and

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Speaker 1: associates in the community, we will immediately send out an

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Speaker 1: investigator to go to the location of those people, and

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Speaker 1: often people will speak to us and want to speak

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Speaker 1: to us voluntarily. In this case, they were forbidden to

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Speaker 1: do so by Father Abbot. At this point, Holy Crosses

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Speaker 1: Insurance Company stepped in as well. Church Mutual Insurance, which

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Speaker 1: covers religious organizations and handles liability cases for them, provided

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Speaker 1: lawyers for the monastic candidates and priests of Holy Cross

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Speaker 1: each monastic candidate, as I recall, was given his own lawyer,

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Speaker 1: so we had a about six lawyers. I think there

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Speaker 1: were four monastic candidates and Father Abbot and Father Damien

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Speaker 1: all Um funded by the insurance company. I believe that

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Speaker 1: funds and he claims against the school, and all of

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Speaker 1: these layers of lawyers made it difficult for Edith's team

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Speaker 1: to get any corroborating information from inside the school. I'd

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Speaker 1: say that I have never seen in my years doing

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Speaker 1: this kind of work any group who have been less

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Speaker 1: cooperative with the police, and to have a school not

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Speaker 1: allow police, and to have a school monitor every single

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Speaker 1: move that was made. The warnings that Father Abbott gave

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Speaker 1: he did not allow the monastic can it is to speak,

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Speaker 1: or anyone to speak voluntarily. Everything had to be pursuant

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Speaker 1: to a subpoena. But he warned them in a very

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Speaker 1: dramatic tone that they should not speak about anything personal

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Speaker 1: if they were asked anything personal. And from the beginning

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Speaker 1: it was clear that Father Abbott was concerned about what

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Speaker 1: might be coming out, which I found quite curious. Now

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Speaker 1: what would he be worried about, But there was something

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Speaker 1: to worry about. Soon after, Mike made the allegations of

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Speaker 1: sexual assault against father Went and father Damien. A sex

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Speaker 1: crime case was opened, and Gail Levine, the lead prosecutor

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Speaker 1: in the murder case, would also play a role here

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Speaker 1: and come up against those same challenges as the defense.

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Speaker 1: Immediately upon mc calo Cofel giving a statement to police

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Speaker 1: that he had been sexually abused at the Holy Cross Academy,

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Speaker 1: as law enforcement, we became extremely concerned about the other

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Speaker 1: children that were there. There were four other people under

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Speaker 1: the age of eighteen that were residing there. There was

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Speaker 1: one person over the age of eighteen. We wanted to

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Speaker 1: make sure that no one else was being heard. What

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Speaker 1: we immediately encountered was resistance, resistance from getting any contact

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Speaker 1: with the monastic candidates from the Ukraine. So we tried

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Speaker 1: very hard and I assembled a team to be available

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Speaker 1: on one day during one afternoon when all four of

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Speaker 1: us could begin by interviewing those four Ukrainian nationals. Immediately

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Speaker 1: we were given notice that a legal team had been

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Speaker 1: assembled and none of those students would come to the

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Speaker 1: State Attorney's office without subpoenas and without the presence of

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Speaker 1: their lawyers. What we thought was so shocking was really

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Speaker 1: within thirty six hours, a legal team had been assembled,

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Speaker 1: and police couldn't even go out and gather the witnesses

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Speaker 1: or the possible victims up, you know, and get information

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Speaker 1: about them and what was going on. We were prohibited

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Speaker 1: from doing that, and we were prohibited for several days,

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Speaker 1: and that made us more concerned, very concerned that they

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Speaker 1: were going to be told what to say and what

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Speaker 1: to do. When the legal teams finally did get subpoenas

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Speaker 1: to speak with the monastic candidates, they were surprised by

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Speaker 1: the demeanor of the boys. When we did get a

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Speaker 1: chance to meet those children, it was to us shocking

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Speaker 1: what we saw. They were clearly well groomed. They appeared thin,

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Speaker 1: but not malnourished, pale as if they hadn't seen the

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Speaker 1: Florida sun at all, and they were rigidly dressed white shirts,

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Speaker 1: black pants, black shoes. They certainly didn't come across as

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Speaker 1: teenage boys. They came across as small robots. They spoke

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Speaker 1: beautifully and clearly, but with a specific cadence in their voice.

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Speaker 1: When you asked them, do you know the difference between

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Speaker 1: good touching and bad touching? They would say, yes, did

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Speaker 1: anybody touch you in a bad place. No, how do

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Speaker 1: you like living at the monastery? Very good, Everything's fine.

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Speaker 1: So it was a matter of lack of a better word,

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Speaker 1: pulling teeth. We got nothing out of them, and the

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Speaker 1: lawyers from Church Mutual Insurance complicated things for the teams

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Speaker 1: investigating Mike's claims of sexual abuse. Here's Gail Avine again.

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Speaker 1: They were a huge insurance company. They provide the best

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Speaker 1: representation and they tangled a web that was very hard

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Speaker 1: for us to untangle. Every kid had an excellent lawyer.

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Speaker 1: Now I don't know what was done before the kid

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Speaker 1: got to me, but by the time the kid got

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Speaker 1: to me, the kid was schooled in what to say.

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Speaker 1: Nothing happened to me. So that's why I went to Ukraine.

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Speaker 1: I got permission from the State Department to go to Ukraine,

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Speaker 1: where these people were not represented by anybody. This decision

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Speaker 1: to go to Ukraine to speak with former monastic candidates

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Speaker 1: and the families of the boys in Miami was a

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Speaker 1: choice both the defense and prosecution would make in the

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Speaker 1: months after the murder. But what they didn't know was

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Speaker 1: that Church Mutual Insurance was also eager for answers, and

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Speaker 1: they were on step ahead on the way to Ukraine.

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Speaker 1: That's coming up after a break. Welcome back to Sacred Scandal.

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Speaker 1: In the weeks after me Hailokofil accused the priest at

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Speaker 1: Holy Cross of sexual abuse, both his defense team and

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Speaker 1: the prosecution started to look for any evidence of these claims,

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Speaker 1: but the priests and monastic candidates were shielded by lawyers

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Speaker 1: hired by the school's insurance company. With these obstacles preventing

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Speaker 1: them from getting any clear answers, both teams decided that

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Speaker 1: they would travel to Ukraine to talk to the monastic

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Speaker 1: candidates who left and the families of those that were

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Speaker 1: still in Miami, But before they could get there, a

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Speaker 1: private investigator hired by Church Mutual Insurance would beat them

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Speaker 1: to it. My name is Michael Zubas. I am recognized

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Speaker 1: worldwide as a premise liability negligent security, crime prevention, security

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Speaker 1: and police law enforcement agency Policies and Procedures expert. Zubas

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Speaker 1: was actually called onto the scene from the moment the

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Speaker 1: murder happened. He was a retired police chief from Miami

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Speaker 1: Shoes and knew many of the officers already on the scene.

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Speaker 1: He remained a part of the case as the murder

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Speaker 1: evolved into the investigation of sexual abuse claims. Unlike the

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Speaker 1: teams of Gail Avin and Edith Georgie, Zubas was granted

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Speaker 1: unrestricted access to interview the monastic candidates of Holy Cross, and,

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Speaker 1: like sex abuse cases at other churches, he would try

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Speaker 1: to get to the bottom of their allegations. Is there

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Speaker 1: any thing you look for, any signs, any like demeanor,

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Speaker 1: any hints that the person that is being accused would

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Speaker 1: actually be guilty. Well, I had a case and and

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Speaker 1: the choir director was sodomizing young men that were in

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Speaker 1: the choir. He groomed him and then he was having

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Speaker 1: sex with three or four of them. And uh, some

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Speaker 1: allegation came out from some parents. And then I interviewed

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Speaker 1: these individuals and they broke down and confessed to me

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Speaker 1: after a period of time, that this stuff was going on.

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Speaker 1: And did they deny it first? Those boys? Oh? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because it's an embarrassing thing, you know. I mean, is

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Speaker 1: there a chance that these monastic candidates may have denied

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Speaker 1: it at first if they weren't really being pressed, or

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Speaker 1: you didn't have enough time to keep going asking them.

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Speaker 1: I think we had plenty of time, look nose, No,

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Speaker 1: you can get sworn statements and interviewing them. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you look him right in the eye, look him right

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Speaker 1: in the face. I never detected any uh, any one

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Speaker 1: of them lying. I never detected that. As a trained interrogator.

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Speaker 1: There's all kinds of signs, and these boys, not one

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Speaker 1: of them ever portrayed that they were being disingenuous. I

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Speaker 1: just never got that at all. Maybe somebody else had different,

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Speaker 1: you know, thoughts, but me I didn't. After speaking to

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Speaker 1: the monastic candidate's at Holy Cross, Zula started to come

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Speaker 1: to his own conclusions about the allegations against Father Went

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Speaker 1: and Father Damien. As we were progressing along with our investigation,

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Speaker 1: nothing was learned there that was in any way, shape

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Speaker 1: or form could have involved the two priests the accusation

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Speaker 1: made by Koful. There was no evidence that was discovered

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Speaker 1: that in any way, shape or form implicated them in

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Speaker 1: those allegations. But to be sure that those boys weren't

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Speaker 1: leaving anything unsaid, the insurance company decided that Zubs still

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Speaker 1: needed to dig deeper for the truth. There were, as

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Speaker 1: I recall, four or five monk candidates they're at Holy

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Speaker 1: Cross from the Ukraine. I guess whomever decided that it

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Speaker 1: would probably be a good idea for me to go

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Speaker 1: to the Ukraine and to locate the parents of all

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Speaker 1: five of these monks and interview them to see whether

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Speaker 1: or not they had ever received letters from their boys,

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Speaker 1: our phone calls from their boys. And also there were

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Speaker 1: a couple of that actually went back to the Ukraine

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Speaker 1: for vacation, and while they were there, did they express

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Speaker 1: any concern to throw an even linerity to what Kof

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Speaker 1: was saying. Was there sexual abuse on the part of

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Speaker 1: Abbot and Damien? And so that's what I did. Zuba says.

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Speaker 1: Father went was helpful and getting things set up for

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Speaker 1: him in Ukraine. The priest arranged for the private investigator

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Speaker 1: to work with the same translator he used when traveling there.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand one, Zubas would need a visa to

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Speaker 1: enter the country. He told us that he also used

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Speaker 1: to contact the father went to New Jersey to expedite

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Speaker 1: that process. So no, Father Abbott was very helpful and

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Speaker 1: very thrilled that I was going over there to seek

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Speaker 1: out the truth. Can I ask you a question, do

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Speaker 1: you think that that might be considered a conflict of interest?

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Speaker 1: Thinking that the person who is accused of the allegations

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Speaker 1: you're investigating is helping you, you know, secure an interpreter

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Speaker 1: and helping you with your travel and all of that.

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Speaker 1: Oh No, I wasn't considered a conflict of interest, uh

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Speaker 1: or even unethical. I mean, he didn't take part in

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Speaker 1: any of the interviews. He had not spoken to those

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Speaker 1: parents that I detected prior to be getting there. They

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Speaker 1: were the main focus. He didn't know who the driver

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Speaker 1: was that was hired. He didn't know the attorney. I

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Speaker 1: don't think, uh No, I did not view that as

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Speaker 1: a conflict of interest at all. I viewed it as

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Speaker 1: a very helpful thing because I was going to a

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Speaker 1: place in the world where you don't just travel to

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Speaker 1: and everything, kind of just like going to New York City.

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Speaker 1: After getting his PISA, he flew from Miami to Paris

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Speaker 1: and then onto Budapest in Hungary. A driver from Ukraine

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Speaker 1: would meet up with him and they'd crossed the border

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Speaker 1: into Transcarpathea. The following day off I went to a

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Speaker 1: town called ouge Garad checked into the big hotel that's

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Speaker 1: in that town, built by the Russians many many, many

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Speaker 1: years ago, a very stark no hot water, no blankets,

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Speaker 1: on the bed. It was a rough five nights I

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Speaker 1: spent there in uz Garad Zuvis and his driver would

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Speaker 1: then meet up with the translator and a local lawyer

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Speaker 1: who would certify the statements he got from the families.

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Speaker 1: We set out for the next five days, traveling all

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Speaker 1: over the Ukraine, tracking families down and getting sworn statements

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Speaker 1: from them. Here's another one here, it's uh Andrea her Stack.

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Speaker 1: That's one of the sword ones. The other sworn one

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Speaker 1: is um, I have a n etch semon yuk Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you don't mind it, Like even if they sound

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Speaker 1: repetitive and they all say sort of the same thing,

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Speaker 1: I'd like to hear different snippets. Well, here it is

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Speaker 1: Alia her Stack. Stayed in all Across Monastery in Miami, Florida,

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Speaker 1: with the aim to become a monk of the above

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Speaker 1: monastery within November till August. During the above period of

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Speaker 1: no pressure, either physical or moral, was displayed towards me,

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Speaker 1: but I decided to leave my study there. The reason

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Speaker 1: of it is my persuasion that I can never be

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Speaker 1: a monk as far as I have no real vocation

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Speaker 1: to go into church. Regarding Sister Michelle, I can say

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Speaker 1: that She was very polite to all of us and

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00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:41,520
Speaker 1: deserves only respect for her honorable job. Neither Father Gregory

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Speaker 1: nor Father Went never did me something that was wrong

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Speaker 1: from the moral or physical point of view. They never

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Speaker 1: told me things that made me feel uncomfortable. I never

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Speaker 1: saw a witness of moral or physical abusing displayed by

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Speaker 1: Father Gregory or Father Damien towards candidates of the monastery.

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00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:14,159
Speaker 1: The other one, this is uh Ivanovitch Semenyuk, lived at

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Speaker 1: the monastery center village of consobo Uzgara District's comparta region

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Speaker 1: by my own wish from two thousand July thirty one.

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Speaker 1: As I am willing to be a clergyman. During my

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Speaker 1: studies at the center, I have got acquainted with Gregory Went.

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Speaker 1: He made the impression of a very good and respectable man.

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00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:41,960
Speaker 1: He manifested kindness and understanding towards me. He never humiliated

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Speaker 1: me with words or deeds. There was no any sexual

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00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:50,920
Speaker 1: abuse towards me from his side. What concerns Father Damien,

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00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 1: I have heard about him, but do not know him personally.

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Speaker 1: The present statement is written by myself personally, with had

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00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 1: any influence of a third person's and then the others

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00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:11,639
Speaker 1: are in Russian. Like this statement from Elia Hertzock and

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Speaker 1: the other from the boy who was still in the

301
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:17,159
Speaker 1: monastic training center. All of the former candidates and parents

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00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 1: in Ukraine were telling Zuba's the same thing. They never witnessed, experienced,

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00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,080
Speaker 1: or heard of any sexual abuse at Holy Cross. In

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Speaker 1: interviewing the families of these monastic candidates, were the parents

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00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:36,920
Speaker 1: afraid or alarmed at what had happened? They didn't express

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00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 1: that they were extremely thrilled and happy. They were thrilled

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00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:47,359
Speaker 1: that their sons had this opportunity to leave this desperate,

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00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:53,040
Speaker 1: horrible existence in the Ukraine. And when I say desperate horrible,

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00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,440
Speaker 1: it's pretty rough there in the Ukraine, and particularly these

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Speaker 1: villages where I visited. I actually saw a seventy year

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Speaker 1: old woman pulling a plow. Two males were pulling the plow,

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Speaker 1: and she was guiding the plow and I asked where

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Speaker 1: the tractor was. They said, the tractor they used the

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Speaker 1: parts to bake bullets the Russians. And I said where's

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Speaker 1: the mule and she said, we ate it. So that's

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00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:23,160
Speaker 1: the conditions that they live in there. And so these parents,

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Speaker 1: they were thrilled that their boys had this opportunity to

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Speaker 1: come to the United States of America, get an education,

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Speaker 1: and become priests someday. That's like a dream come true

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Speaker 1: for some of these families. The only place for Zula

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00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,159
Speaker 1: said he didn't feel the same excitement was in the

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Speaker 1: village of Ovina Bistra by now the k Fills. Mike's

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00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 1: parents were already aware that their son was in prison

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Speaker 1: for killing sister Michelle, and the mother was um. She

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Speaker 1: was very volatile. At first, she was spewing spit and

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Speaker 1: yelling at me about her son being in jail, etcetera, etcetera.

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00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 1: She was very angry, and then during the interview she

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Speaker 1: actually turned around and went after her husband, Cofa's father

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Speaker 1: and she started to accuse him of his abuse to

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Speaker 1: when he was growing up in front of you, yes,

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Speaker 1: in front of all of us. Yes, that he was

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00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,680
Speaker 1: harsh and he beat the kid and and did things

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Speaker 1: like that to cause the boy to grow up. And

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Speaker 1: maybe she was insinuating is why he did what he did.

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Speaker 1: Did she mention anything about sexual abuse at all? I

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00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 1: don't recall whether she actually narrowed it down to sexual abuse,

337
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,440
Speaker 1: and I don't think that she did. I believe she

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00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 1: just spoke of just abuse that the father born on

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00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 1: that child when he was growing up. He was a

340
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 1: cocky little guy who actually was very cocky and nasty

341
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 1: to me. Alcohol was involved there that because I remember

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00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,400
Speaker 1: him drinking that day when we were there. Did they

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00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,159
Speaker 1: know you were coming? Were they expecting you? No, they

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00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,919
Speaker 1: were not. Actually, some of these homes were very difficult

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00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 1: to locate. I mean when we finally located it, it

346
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 1: took us almost a half a day to find this house.

347
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 1: And when we knocked on the door, they had north

348
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: the idea who we were. But certainly it was explained

349
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,120
Speaker 1: to them, and they know their sons in jail in America,

350
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: so it wasn't like we were from some outer space

351
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: Mars or something. We had those credentials. So they did

352
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 1: welcome us into the house because she kept screaming that

353
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 1: she wanted us to help her son get out of

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Speaker 1: prison and come home. That was her whole purpose of

355
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 1: even talking to us. After sending off the lawyer to

356
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 1: have the sworn statements notarized in Kiev, Zula's returned to

357
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: the United States with no new evidence of sexual abuse

358
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 1: at Holy Cross weeks later. By the time Edith Georgie

359
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: and her defense team arrived in Ukraine. The tone around

360
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: her client's childhood home changed after Mikailo's arrest. His father

361
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 1: apparently stopped drinking and reformed himself, so when we were there,

362
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 1: he was in good shape. And oh the parents were

363
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: as cooperative as they could be. They felt like they'd

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00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:48,439
Speaker 1: been hoodwinked. Well, yeah, both of his parents told me.

365
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: At the beginning, Abbott promised regular communication, they'd see him

366
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: back frequently, and as it turned out, his mail was

367
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 1: mon a turred. Phone calls were severely limited. He could

368
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 1: only return to the Ukraine when he had to because

369
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 1: of his passport or visa issues, and when he did

370
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 1: come back, he was always accompanied by Abbott or Damien,

371
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,880
Speaker 1: who wouldn't let him out of their sight, under their

372
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 1: control completely. The parents realized by the first time he

373
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: came back that this was not what they bargained for,

374
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 1: but he wasn't free to speak. They didn't know any better.

375
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: Things were told to them that he was doing fine.

376
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 1: The last time he visited, the parents and the local

377
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 1: priest both well. They all noticed a real change in him,

378
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 1: a real quietness, a real depression in him, and they

379
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,959
Speaker 1: tried to talk to him in their own way and

380
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 1: see if maybe he wouldn't go back. But he didn't

381
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: have the strength. He was under their control. Almost hypnotically.

382
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: Both Edith's and the insurance company's investigator were in Ukraine

383
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: looking for any shred of evidence about sexual abuse, and

384
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 1: their team got a lot of the same answers. Though

385
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: the defense was delayed in their travel, They were, however,

386
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,360
Speaker 1: able to spend more time with me Hilo, which gave

387
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: them a different set of tools for investigating the claims

388
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 1: of abuse. They could use what Mike told them about

389
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: his experience and asked the former monastic can that it's

390
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,959
Speaker 1: more specific questions about things they may have noticed at

391
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 1: the monastery. Edith believed that she'd found something when she

392
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: spoke to Ilia Hertzog, who we heard from on our

393
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 1: last few episodes. He was no longer a monk and

394
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 1: living back in Ukraine. We investigator as much as we

395
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 1: could the data that Mikhailo was giving us to see

396
00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: if it checked with what the other monk candidates would say,

397
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 1: and it did. Ilia. We spent some time with and

398
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 1: Ilia reported the same circumstances that Mikhaelo had described to

399
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: us that would allow the opportunity to be there, that Mikhailo,

400
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: only Mikailo, was allowed into Damien's room privately, and that

401
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: Mikaylo was called in there frequently by Damien, and that

402
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: Mikaelo was heard to go downstairs late at night after

403
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 1: the other candidates were supposed to be in their rooms.

404
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: You know, the dorm was run very military style. You

405
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: could only be in your rooms at a certain time,

406
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: but once you're in your room, you have to stay

407
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 1: in your room until you have permission to come out.

408
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: So everybody was kind of listening to see if people

409
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: obeyed those rules. No one, of course, could ever say

410
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: I saw it happen, because there were, as usual, no witnesses.

411
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: But everything checked out, The whole picture checked out. It

412
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: wasn't much, but it was something Edith could take back

413
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 1: to Miami to try to build her defense. But even

414
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 1: now Mike was still up against the death penalty. And

415
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 1: not long after Edith and her team were gone, the

416
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 1: third set of investigators arrived in trans Carpathia. This time

417
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: it was Assistant State Attorney Gail Levine and Detective Larry

418
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: Billyhu who originally heard me Hailo's confession. Why did it

419
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: seem important? For your team to go to Ukraine. Well,

420
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 1: he made an allegation and it started way back when,

421
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 1: and that would have something to do with his sentencing

422
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 1: over here. I would imagine. I traveled to the Ukraine

423
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: where his parents were, and we introduced ourselves and we're

424
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: very nice in the beginning. Yeah, we talked to them

425
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: and the father said that, yeah, he would sleep in

426
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: the baby with this sometime. I said, okay, well did

427
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: you do anything to him? And he absolutely not. You know,

428
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 1: because we had to go through an interpreter. What would

429
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: you say your biggest takeaways where or did you find

430
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: out anything that you didn't know in the Ukraine? No,

431
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 1: not really. I assume once we approached them about were

432
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: you molesting your child, all we got was he's slept

433
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: in our beds sometimes nothing ever happened, and that's just

434
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: the way it is. So I assumed they were going

435
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: to deny and there's nothing I could have attacked them with.

436
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: And that was pretty much the end of the story

437
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: as far as the Ukraine. Both sides traveled halfway across

438
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: the world without any explosive statements or concrete evidence that

439
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 1: the sex abuse allegations were true. But like everything else,

440
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 1: in this story, the biggest revelations were in the same

441
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: place they always were, inside the monastery at Holy Cross.

442
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: Stay with us, We'll be back after a break. Welcome

443
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 1: back to Sacred Scandal. I'm Paula Burrows and I'm Melanie Bartley.

444
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 1: After returning from Ukraine without a smoking gun, Edith Georgie's

445
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 1: defense team needed to find something in Miami that would

446
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: strengthen her insanity defense. To do that, her team had

447
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 1: to solidify the sexual abuse allegations against the priests of

448
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: Holy Cross. But with legal proceedings of capital cases usually

449
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 1: taking years before going to trial, both sides were worried

450
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 1: that they were up against the clock. They were concerned

451
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 1: that once the monastic candidate's visas expired, they would return

452
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 1: to Ukraine and be unable to appear as witnesses during

453
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: a trial. So a judge gave permission to the poen

454
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 1: of the monastic candidates and record videos of their testimony

455
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 1: for future use, so we already had part of the

456
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: trial in fact preserved. The month candidates had what's called

457
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: perpetuated testimony, so we actually preserved their testimony to be

458
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 1: used in the future for the defense. These testimonies were

459
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: led by Edith and Ray tasse If her co counsel

460
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 1: on the case, and these interviews would help inch the

461
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 1: defense towards getting the information that we're looking for. They

462
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 1: had been programmed to some degree, some more than others,

463
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 1: and so you know, they all had little bits and

464
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 1: pieces of information that added to the credibility of the

465
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: story that mackay had told and of the unique contexts

466
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: or environment that they were in in terms of isolation

467
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 1: and thought control and behavioral control. What were those bits

468
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 1: and pieces that you remember helping his case in that sense? Well,

469
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 1: I remember details about when they traveled and Petro staying

470
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: in the room with went. I thought that was highly unusual.

471
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 1: The traveling Ray mentioned is something Mike told us about

472
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 1: as well. Over the years, the priests would take the

473
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 1: monastic candidates on trips. They went to Disney World, North Carolina, Naples,

474
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 1: and Santa bell Island now in Santa Belle at the

475
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 1: Holiday Inn. You stayed in a room with one of

476
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 1: the other monastic candidates, correct, I think so noncons search.

477
00:34:54,440 --> 00:35:00,080
Speaker 1: This is basil coop being asked about those trips. A

478
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 1: bell father abbot stayed in a room and slept in

479
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 1: the same room with Petro. Correct. Yeah, And you know

480
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 1: on the trip to Santa Belle that Father Damion stayed

481
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 1: with and slept in the same room with Mikailo. Correct.

482
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 1: And you stayed in a room with one of the

483
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 1: other manastic candidates correct. Okay. Now to the trip to

484
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 1: North Carolina, you went again as a group. Correct. And

485
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 1: in North Carolina you stayed in cabins. Correct. Okay, come

486
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 1: in cabins. It was each individual little cabin where people stayed. Correct.

487
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: We're staying country all of us poll book in London,

488
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 1: I was in lond com Okay. Well, we know that

489
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 1: Father Damion again slept in the same room m with

490
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 1: with them. It's three bedrooms and Mona Captin, Somano and

491
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 1: Cavanams and the Marvel and Diane Sash. So the trips

492
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 1: to North Carolina, you stayed in a cabinet. There were

493
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 1: three bedrooms. Correct, Father Damien and Mikailo stayed in a

494
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 1: bedroom together and stopped in the same room. Correct. Father

495
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 1: Abbot stayed in the same room and slept in the

496
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 1: same room as the Petro. Correct. And you stayed in

497
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: a bedroom with one of the other men, asked candidates. Correct,

498
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 1: isn't it a fact in those bedrooms in that cabin

499
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 1: in North Carolina, and each bedroom there was only one bed. Yeah, okay.

500
00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 1: So in North Carolina, father Abbott and Petro stupped in

501
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 1: the same bed correct. And in North Carolina Father Damia

502
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: and Makilo slupped in the same bed correct. Ray and

503
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: Edith also asked him and asked the candidates if they

504
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 1: heard someone walking around their house at night after curfew,

505
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: they remembered Mihilo told them he would be summoned to

506
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,359
Speaker 1: father Damien's room at that time. Now, as we've seen

507
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 1: the pictures, you and three other candidates slept in the

508
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 1: bedroom with the blond beds right slap to the bedroom

509
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 1: with the four beds. Okay um, And that is very

510
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 1: near the hallway where the stairway is. It's around stairway, yes, okay.

511
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 1: And everyone had lights out of chat right to say

512
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 1: we're not supposed to get up, right, you can't go

513
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 1: You can get up to go to the bathroom. You

514
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,320
Speaker 1: don't have to ask the permission for that, right, But

515
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,800
Speaker 1: to go downstairs at the ten o'clock you need to

516
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 1: have permission for father has it? Yeah, okay? And if

517
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 1: you want to get that permission. You ask in advance

518
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 1: if it's okay for you to go downstairs after ten o'clock. Right, So,

519
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,800
Speaker 1: as of ten o'clock everyone should be in their beds.

520
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 1: You four in the room with the four beds, and

521
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:36,400
Speaker 1: Mikailo in his room a single room, and Pedro if

522
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 1: he's sleeping there in his room right now. Many times

523
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 1: during the night, you heard footsteps going up and down

524
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:53,359
Speaker 1: that stairway, didn't you, And you never fothered find out

525
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,800
Speaker 1: who that was or what was happening, did you? You

526
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 1: knew it was either Mikayl or Petrol. Right, there's none

527
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 1: of your for people got up and went downstairs. Yeah, yea,

528
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: one of you guys are getting out. So it happen

529
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 1: to be Mikailo or Petrol right the way Petro's room

530
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: had separate entrance through another steroids, didn't it. So hearing

531
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 1: these s footsteps going on the downstairs, and I'm talking

532
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 1: about before March, before this horrible thing happened in March,

533
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:38,320
Speaker 1: you heard those footsteps many times, but you never found

534
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 1: out why. Most of these testimonies took place about eight

535
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 1: months after the murder at Holy Cross. By then, the

536
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 1: biggest silence of all was from Father Went and Father Damien. Interestingly,

537
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: Damien and Abbott moved off the campus and moved to

538
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 1: another location as soon as this whole case broke because

539
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 1: they didn't want to appear to be living with the

540
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 1: young candidates anymore. They had to separate themselves. Aside from

541
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: a few press releases sent out by a pr firm

542
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,359
Speaker 1: and letters to Holy Cross parents, the priest said little

543
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: publicly about the murder or the allegations against them. Almost

544
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: a year and a half after Mike was arrested, Gale

545
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,959
Speaker 1: and Edith were finally able to depost the priests. Father

546
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 1: Went and Father Damien each appeared separately with their lawyer present,

547
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 1: but on the advice of those lawyers, both priests refused

548
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 1: to answer almost every single question they were asked. They

549
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 1: resisted and pleaded the Fifth Amendment for hours. How did

550
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 1: you get in touch with the boys in Ukraine? Fifth Amendment?

551
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: Are you supporting them or their families in any way?

552
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 1: Fifth Amendment? All of those types of things, you know,

553
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 1: were questions that Ms Georgie was propound that really didn't

554
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 1: have a whole lot to do with the murder, But

555
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,240
Speaker 1: in deposition in the discovery process allows her to build

556
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 1: a defense for her client through the questions of state witnesses.

557
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 1: So it wasn't an inappropriate questions, but it was just

558
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 1: became a lot more suspicious with the taking of the

559
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 1: Fifth Amendment. They went so far as to appeal the

560
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: lower court, the trial court ruling that they had to

561
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 1: answer the questions, and they set in motion and appeal

562
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,840
Speaker 1: and then we had to go back to court and

563
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 1: the judge had to be present for the depositions, and

564
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 1: the judge had a rule on every question before they

565
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:41,359
Speaker 1: answered the question. So instead of the deposition taking maybe

566
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,880
Speaker 1: eight hours or over the course of two days, maybe

567
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 1: a course of over sixteen hours, the depositions took days,

568
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 1: over the course of maybe five seven days. So by

569
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,800
Speaker 1: that point all the red flags were there and just

570
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 1: more and more skeptical and more and more concerned about

571
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 1: the safe of the kids there. From talking to the

572
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 1: investigators on this case, we knew some of the details

573
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 1: about these depositions, but because the sessions weren't recorded, we

574
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 1: never got to hear them. So this year we request

575
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 1: the transcripts of those conversations so we could get a

576
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 1: sense of what sorts of questions the priests were avoiding.

577
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 1: The documents are hundreds of pages long, and scrolling through

578
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 1: them feels like an infinite loop of the same responses

579
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: over and over again. So what we're looking at is

580
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 1: the document. We're looking at the document that is the

581
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 1: transcription of the entire questioning of Father Went. It is.

582
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:49,280
Speaker 1: So the first one is Father Went deposition from November

583
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 1: two thousand and two. Yeah, and there is about two

584
00:42:54,440 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 1: hundred pages in which he basically refuses to answer of

585
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 1: the questions. It's really really bizarre. Um. Yeah, So so

586
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 1: over here on page fifty four, they basically asked him

587
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 1: why he decided to become a priest. Yeah, he said,

588
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 1: relying upon the advice of my counsel due to the

589
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,360
Speaker 1: false allegations against me and my well founded fear that

590
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 1: these unjust investigations could lead to unfair charges and prosecution.

591
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 1: I am reluctantly forced to invoke privilege and refused to

592
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 1: answer based on my constitutional rights guaranteed by the first

593
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 1: fifth and fourteen Amendments. And it's crazy because I mean,

594
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 1: I understand that if they ask him things about the

595
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 1: sex abuse or anything like that, but it's like really basic,

596
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: really basic questions, like like I want to ask you

597
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 1: what is your current profession or occupation? I involved the

598
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 1: privilege on the ground stated previously what do you do

599
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 1: for a living? Same thing? And then the creeze see

600
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: as to one I think is do you know what

601
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:08,760
Speaker 1: Holy Cross Monastery is? Fifth Amendment? What is Holy Cross Academy?

602
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 1: Fifth Amendment? Where do you presently live same, same, same like?

603
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 1: I mean, it's hundreds of pages. During these depositions with

604
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 1: Father Wynn and Father Damien, Prosecutor Gail Levin started to

605
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 1: notice something interesting happening between her side and the defense team.

606
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: I've known miss Georgian for many years. She's a fine lawyer,

607
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:38,320
Speaker 1: but usually we're on opposite sides of the table. We

608
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 1: found ourselves going into the deposition room and just sort

609
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 1: of the way it was, we sat on the same

610
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 1: side of the table and the priests would sit on

611
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: the opposite side of the table. Usually my witnesses sit

612
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,719
Speaker 1: on the same side. After the second day we did that,

613
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: I sort of looked at Miss Georgie and I said, Edith,

614
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:00,839
Speaker 1: we're on the same side of the table this time,

615
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 1: and we sort of had a chuckle about that. And

616
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:06,879
Speaker 1: I think at that point during those depositions we knew

617
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,799
Speaker 1: that we had a very unique situation on our hands.

618
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 1: As the case went on, Mike's lawyer, Edith felt like

619
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 1: prosecutors were sitting on more than just her side of

620
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:23,759
Speaker 1: the table, and that even Gay Levine was starting to

621
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: feel the same way about Mike's allegations. I absolutely believe

622
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 1: he was sexually abused, and I believe that the prosecutor

623
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 1: felt the same. In searching for those answers, both sides

624
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 1: would stumble across another ongoing investigation into Holy Cross. In

625
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 1: the years before the murder of Sister Michelle, the monastery's

626
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 1: own bishop reached out to the Vatican. The bishop was

627
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 1: trying to find out whether father went and Father Damien,

628
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 1: we're really priests at all. We'll go there next time

629
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: on Sacred's handle. Sacred Scandal is a production of Exile

630
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 1: Content Studio in partnership with I Heart Radio is Mike

631
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 1: la Podcast Network. Sacred Scandal was created and produced by

632
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 1: Melanie Bartley and me Paula Barros. Our senior producer is

633
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 1: Dennis Funk of Written in Air. The executive producers are

634
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:35,720
Speaker 1: Rose Red and Nando Villa. Production mixing and sound design

635
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 1: by Helena de Grout, our production assistant is Imani Leonard.

636
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:45,840
Speaker 1: The show is fact checked by Kimberly Winston. Original music

637
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:50,760
Speaker 1: and final audio mixing comes from Patrick Hart, and special

638
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 1: thanks on this episode to Ariel Stevenson, Corey Chikowski, and

639
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 1: Travis Royd. If you'd like to reach out, email us

640
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 1: at hello at Sacred Scandal podcast dot com, and you

641
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:22,800
Speaker 1: can follow us on Instagram at Sacred Scandal m