WEBVTT - CZM Book Club Presents: Hermetica Interview with Alan Lea 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:17.520 Cool Zone Media Club Club Club Club. Hello, and welcome 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:19.320 to cooles On Media book Club, the only book club 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:20.919 where you don't have to do the reading because I 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:22.960 do it for you and I know what you're thinking. 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:25.319 You're thinking, how has this been a proper book club 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:28.880 when you do the reading but then there's no discussion. Well, 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:32.960 this week we're going to have a discussion, and we 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:36.199 have on not only the author, Alan Lee of the 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:38.880 book that you just listened to, her Medica, but also 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:41.479 Hazel who helps a lot with book club, and so 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:45.080 that way it's an actual conversation between a bunch of people. 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:46.840 How are you Alan? 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:50.840 While the star with Alan, I don't know, I'm here, Yeah, 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:54.720 and a variety of complex and enough ble ways. 0:00:57.200 --> 0:01:01.720 I love this for you, Hi, I'm also feeling complex 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:05.280 and enough ofble. That was an incredible description. I had 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:09.760 a little smoothie for breakfast. I got up early. I'm 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:11.080 so proud of myself. 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:16.840 We are here at the crack of ten am to 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:21.679 record for you Eastern time. Eastern time. That's how much 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:28.800 we all love you. So there's a book it's called Hermtica. 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:32.400 We just listened to it. Well, you all just listened 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:35.840 to it. Well, yeah or whatever, and we want to 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:37.720 talk about it. Hey, soe, what do you got? 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:40.760 Yeah, let's start off with just where the book came from. 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:42.679 Can you tell us a little bit about where you 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:46.600 found inspiration for this and maybe where you typically find 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:47.680 inspiration for your fiction. 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:51.560 Well, every writing process is different. I did the vast 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:54.360 majority of the writing for her Medica in a very 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:59.360 frenzied month early in the COVID pandemic. So the feelings 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:03.040 of lockdown one may have shown up a little bit 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:06.080 in the claustrophobia of the work. Maybe, I mean probably 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:10.400 not context is real, but no, it definitely is real, 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:12.519 and so that was a part of it, while also 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:18.519 thinking about evolving technologies of social control and surveillance. Far 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:22.000 more than the pandemic, I would say social media actually 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:26.760 really shows up in this book, the compartmentalizing, siloed effect 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:31.200 of social media, how it allows people's reality to be controlled, 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:35.519 how it really really limits and cuts down on people's 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:39.839 social interactions while giving them the illusion of having more 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:44.480 social interactions, when in fact these interactions could be you know, 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:46.640 it could be AI, it could be robots on the 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:49.720 other end of things, and in any case, it's not tactile. 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:54.480 It's not you know, olfactory, like you're so rarely actually 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:56.639 in the room with people or walking down the street 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:59.880 with people. And then of course always and connected to that, 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:03.200 a lot of thinking about different options that the state 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:07.079 may have for responding to the ecological crisis, to responding 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:12.160 to you know, these building pressures that may lead towards collapse, 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:15.760 and what different forms of totalitarianism might look like today. 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:19.960 Is it frustrating to have been prescient so fast about 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:23.960 the AI thing? Where Like, because I think in twenty twenty, 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:27.400 twenty twenty one, it was less likely that the people 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:29.720 that you would be arguing with on the internet were 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:35.200 literally not people, right, But these days more and more, 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:36.920 if you're arguing with someone on the internet, there's like 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:39.160 a really good chance or just straight up arguing with 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:43.160 a cell phone somewhere that is like running a program. 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:45.520 Personally, as an anarchist, I feel like that's a part 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:50.280 of our lot, is being like incredibly frustrated with Like 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:52.000 it's not like an ego thing. It's not like anna 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:54.120 I told you thing. It's like seeing people that you 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:58.400 care about jump joyfully onto a sledge and go full 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:01.680 speed down a snowy hill. Right into like a trash compactor, 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:04.040 and at the beginning you're like, there's a trash compactor 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:06.640 right there, and you have to watch this whole beautiful 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:09.720 descent and then just the horror of all the blood 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:12.520 and gore flying, and then do that over and over 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:16.680 again every year, every century. I think sometimes I wake 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:21.840 up with like, I don't know, Emma Goldman or Alexander Berkman, 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:25.039 like screaming through my mouth, things that like should have 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:27.400 been obvious at the end of the nineteenth century, and 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:29.599 you know, we just keep diving headfirst into it, but 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:34.560 somehow we're surviving this trash compactor world. So yeah, it 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:37.960 can be frustrating and it can also be inspiring on 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:40.040 some dark levels that like you know, we're still here. 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:47.600 Yeah, Yeah, it's heavy, We're still here. 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:49.640 Give us another one. Let's go through the master again. 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:53.680 Yeah, back onto the sled, motherfuckers. 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:57.760 Yeah. Alan, you're somebody who I came across first through 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:02.520 like nonfiction, particularly like How to Live in the trash 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:05.120 Compactor World that I am. I remember you had in 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:06.880 me of this book, and I went, oh, my friend, 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:09.880 my friend writes fiction too. I'm wondering if you could 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:12.600 talk about like I know that fiction is important to 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:15.640 you in your personal life, and I'm wondering specifically if 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:18.279 you could talk about your relationship with fiction and how 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:20.880 the fiction that you write compliments your nonfiction work. 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:24.599 Yeah, so it's not really secret anymore. But I also 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:29.479 write a lot of nonfiction under another name, which you 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:32.000 know you might be able to find out any smooths 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:32.320 out there. 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:34.320 Or we've been saying it at the top and bottom 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:36.800 of every episode that people should check out your books. 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:38.960 We got permission from you to do this. I want 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:39.799 to be really clear. 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:42.880 Oh yeah, no, I know, yeah, absolutely, But how about 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:45.120 we don't say that name at all during this whole 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:47.880 interview and then we'll force our sloths out there in 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:53.640 case any of them haven't to listen to the Okay book. Yeah, well, 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:56.520 lo bar lobar for sleuthing these days, Like, I mean, 0:05:56.560 --> 0:06:00.560 all of the big mysteries are obvious. Yes it is genocide. Yes, 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:03.520 we're heading towards billions of deaths and matflex Lincs like 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:06.520 they don't even have to hide it anymore. Yeah, from 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:08.479 early on, I had a lot more luck getting the 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:11.600 nonfiction published. Some of it is luck, some of it 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:15.120 is also that the fiction world is way more, especially 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:19.000 speculative fiction is way more monopolized or kind of concentrated 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:23.159 into like five massive evil corporations. They control such a 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:27.080 larger share of the speculative fiction that is published than 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:30.040 in the nonfiction world, where you have a lot more 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:33.040 independent presses that have managed to hold on, and that 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:35.280 might be starting to change again for the better as 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:37.680 far as fiction is concerned. But it can be really 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:41.159 difficult to get fiction published. So even though I might 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:45.719 like my nonfiction writing is definitely way more widespread. I've 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:48.559 been writing fiction since I was a little kid, both 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:52.120 as a form of survival and a form of pure 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:55.760 unmitigated joy. When I was a teeny little kid, I 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:57.719 would just kind of walk back and forth in the 0:06:57.760 --> 0:06:59.760 woods or you know, if I was stuck in the 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:01.680 half us, like in a house, just kind of imagining 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:05.640 different worlds and stories and whatnot. And also, like as 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:07.880 one becomes more and more aware of like the world 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:10.560 around them, I don't want to take like a utilitarian 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:14.160 approach either to nonfiction or to fiction. I think they 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:18.400 both can and should be acts of joy, of desperation, 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:23.480 of rage, of curiosity. But they're both, you know, tools 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:26.760 for understanding the world around us for interacting with the 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:31.000 world around us. And basically, the real world can't exist 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:33.960 without the imaginary world. And that's true on a mathematical level. 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:37.560 That's also true on the level of like how societies 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:42.520 organize themselves, like we need imagination, and imagination can also 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:46.360 really allow us to better understand or change the world 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:46.920 that we live in. 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:52.600 But if that were true, then Marx's pure materialism might 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:56.240 not be fully correct. And so I actually think you 0:07:56.320 --> 0:08:00.480 must be wrong because Marx said that everything is material. 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:04.960 I'm probably wrong. And yeah, and though I do prefer 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:07.280 cash money like it seems like money, I don't know, 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:11.120 it's almost as though money were not that material. 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:14.600 Trying to say that social constructs are real. 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:20.400 I do think this is one of the great gifts 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:23.480 of anarchism, though, is that, like a lot of our 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:26.520 great anarchists are like also fiction writers, you know, like 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:29.680 Ursula kayle Wynn was predominantly a fiction writer. I think 0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:31.440 this is like a thing that's really special at the 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:34.720 anarchist tradition is that we are so interwoven in with 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:40.520 fiction and with imagination, and along with exploring how big 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:44.400 themes show up in our actual lives, also exploring how 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:46.439 things could be different or how things could be worse. 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:50.880 Yeah, I think that we kind of like missed a period. 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:54.680 When I first started writing fiction or like reading about 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:56.960 anarchist fiction, I was like, oh, where is it? And 0:08:57.000 --> 0:08:59.600 I had trouble finding it a while ago, And that's 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:03.000 changed completely. And then yeah, if I look back historically, 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:06.880 there is so much fiction in the anarchist movement and 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:09.960 like the left and you know whatever more broadly, and 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:14.040 it just kind of it stopped being the thing that 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:18.680 people were focused on for a little while. And focus 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:19.880 on is the wrong word, right, I don't think we 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:23.600 should all like writing novels isn't the way the way 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:25.760 that we change the world, right, It's like one of 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:29.079 the ways that we influence the world and also survive 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:30.640 inside the trash compactor. 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:34.520 But Margaret, you know how else we survive inside the 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:36.880 trash compactory influence the world? 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:40.120 Is it the fact that our podcast is sponsored by 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:44.440 goods and services that people can rely on for every 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:47.040 single need they have, and we can rely on for 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:48.200 modest income. 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:51.080 I do like a modest income, and I do love 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:54.520 the fact that I hate capitalism, with the strong exception 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:57.359 of anything that is plugged on this podcast. 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:01.400 That's right, here's all the stuff we personally love that 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:04.160 we have absolutely no control over because it's just ads, 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:11.400 and we're back. 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:15.080 I personally love to shower with that product that was 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:15.920 just advertised. 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:19.000 Oh, especially the Internet mattresses. You love to shower with 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:21.080 those Internet mattresses. Well. 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:23.040 The best part is that there's like a whole series 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:25.840 of categories of ads that we have completely banned, but 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:29.000 sometimes they slip in anyway. And the most famous example 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:30.839 of this is that a couple of years ago, school 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:33.520 Zone Media had some ads for joining the Washington State 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:38.840 Highway Patrol. Oh God, And then I was listening once 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:41.880 and I got an ad for become a jailer. 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:43.640 Oh jeez, I. 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:46.800 Got an ad once for become a jailer in Ohio specifically. 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:49.440 Yeah, I think I was driving through Ohio when that 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:53.840 happened to me. So if you're listening to Ohio, sorry, yeah, 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:58.920 don't do that as an exception anyway. So I want 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:00.679 to fuss at you about this book. I really liked 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:03.959 this book. I just read it for the second time 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:07.520 to a bunch of people. And there's a point near 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:11.360 the end of this book days is in job search, 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:17.640 jail and in job search jail days is like thinking through, well, 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:22.440 what if I go study moss but then work with 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:25.079 people to step outside the system. And you know, if 0:11:25.120 --> 0:11:28.559 this was a neat simple narrative, this is what would happen. Right, 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:31.600 And I recognize that everyone has different ways of responding 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:35.679 to things, but that's what I would do, right, And 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:38.280 I think that there's this interesting thing. Right, you're presenting 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:41.600 this like very grand metaphor, and I think in the 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:44.840 classic science fiction way you're presenting this grand metaphor for 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:48.280 how you know all of our choices are illusory? Right, 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:49.880 I don't know how to pronounce that word, but it 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:52.559 turns out illusionary isn't a word, And I'm really annoyed 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:54.760 by that, because illusionary should be the word, because it 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:58.120 makes more sense than illusory illusory. 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:02.560 I think illusory job as a pronounce like brings out illusions. 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:05.280 Yeah, no, that makes more sense. I have this problem 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:07.599 where I read more than I talk, which is impressive 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:10.880 because I talk for a living. But you have these 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:13.960 illusionary choices. I'm going to try and make this fucking make. 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:16.280 We're allowed to make worse. Every word was made by 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:17.360 a person, Yeah. 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:19.839 Whoa until the future and when they're all made by 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:21.800 robots and then we're shot if we use the wrong ones. 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:27.040 In this job search metaphor jail basically saying that, like 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:30.840 all choices that we make are totally illusionary, and you know, 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:34.440 illusion of freedom, right, and there is no outside. The 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:39.160 system is one of the main things in this metaphorical world, right, 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:43.760 But all three of us are currently alive, and all 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:49.520 three of us perceive ourselves as doing a complicated navigation 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:53.440 with a system to kind of live outside and to 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:56.720 try to open up the concept of an outside. So 0:12:56.800 --> 0:13:01.240 in my mind, the metaphor of this book and the 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:04.600 actions that the character is choosing work within the context 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:07.520 of this metaphor and not within the real world that 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:09.800 it's representing. I don't have a question here. I'm just 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:11.440 trying to challenge you about this part. 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:15.679 Yeah, so first referring really strictly to the story, and 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:18.600 then to get theoretical if I'm may after that. I 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:21.520 don't see the book as a strict metaphor. Obviously there's 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:24.439 a lot of metaphor in it. Like I also intend 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:27.480 it to be like a world that works, a world 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:31.400 that might be our world someday hopefully not, but might 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:33.640 be in addition to a reflection on the world that 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:37.040 we currently inhabit. I think Days makes the choice that 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:40.000 makes the most sense for them. Days is a little 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:43.040 bit crazy. Days is not like everyone else in terms 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:46.120 of how like emotionally and psychologically they relate with the 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:49.000 rest of the world. And instead of them being cast 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:52.840 as neurodivergent, which in my humble opinion is just like 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:57.760 a stupid, like literal synonym for abnormal, their craziness actually 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:00.680 gives them strengths that other people don't have. It also 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:04.040 deprives them of, like some of the resources of like 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:08.200 stronger human connection, where they could just soldier on, you know, 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:10.520 through the lies. They could soldier on through that prison 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:16.840 world and keep surviving. So dying or possibly dying suicide 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:19.240 for them is a choice. I mean there's also a 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:21.560 great sadness to it, like Days also like an habit's 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:24.120 like a very sad world. They can't really survive in 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:26.800 a prison once they realize that it's a prison. And 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:29.480 that's the reality for a lot of us, you know, 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:31.960 in this world, in the real world, like there is 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:35.680 always an outside, there are almost always other choices until 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:39.200 we end up in maximum security prison. In maximum security prison. 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:41.120 I mean, your choices are you know, basically eat or 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:44.480 or don't eat, like try to kill yourself or try 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:48.600 to survive because of like the extreme level of physical constraint. 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:52.480 But like you know, outside of prison, in in you know, 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.760 the rest of the world, a lot of us end 0:14:55.840 --> 0:14:58.200 up taking our own lives as like a response to 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:01.920 like prison society, and that's what Days does. I did 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:04.280 bring in a couple other characters to reflect that there 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:07.000 were other choices, but yeah, I just I guess I 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:10.560 feel like that that was kind of where you know, 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:12.720 this character would end up based on who they are. 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:15.440 No, it makes sense, and like it does make sense 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:17.080 as the end of the story. I just have this 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:20.240 like I think it was that reading the like, oh, well, 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:22.720 this other story would be like this, and I'm like, ah, 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:25.080 that's the one I would pick, right, But I also 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:28.240 do think it's kind of worth reflecting on. Not that 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:31.240 people can only write about their own experiences, but the 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:33.480 first time I met you, you handed me a book 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:35.920 of short stories that you had written in prison. I 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:40.920 can see how the experience of having like absolutely no 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:44.920 control might have influenced Like, I think a lot of 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:47.400 people would write this as like a raw thought experiment. 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:49.760 They're like, oh, what if I was in job search prison, 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:52.280 but you've been in well, I think it wasn't job 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:55.520 search prison that you were in, But I don't know, 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:56.400 how does this relate? 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:00.760 Yeah, I was in real prison, different security levels from 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:04.480 maximum security to minimum security. That definitely relates. I mean, 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:07.800 that definitely marked an influenced to me as a person. 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:10.160 And at the same time, one of the most remarkable 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:13.720 things about it was when I went in, there was 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:16.760 nothing new about the experience. There was nothing that didn't 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:21.640 remind me about the psychiatric ward one time in high 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:24.880 school when I was hospitalized, or high school itself, or 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:27.480 all of these other institutions. Like, we really do live 0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:31.480 in a prison society. That's not just a hyperbolic metaphor. 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:34.920 And so like I mean, being in like an actual 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:38.960 prison definitely like changes you and influences you. But also 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:42.920 it's not an other reality, it's not exceptional. It's so 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:45.960 similar to all the other institutions that make up our society. 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:49.040 And that kind of also brings us to this question 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:52.360 of like the outside of like you know, what's you know, 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:55.560 what's potentially outside of all of this, Like I think 0:16:55.600 --> 0:17:01.880 a lot of radical academics will construct these really beautiful theories, 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:05.600 these little air tight theories almost you know, air tight, 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:08.480 like you know, certain buildings we might have just recently referred. 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:10.720 To hermetically sealed. 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:14.159 Yeah, these hermetically sealed theories exactly, thank you. And I 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:16.040 think one of the problems with that is, in a 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:22.360 very kind of unconsciously colonial Western way, they're confusing influence 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:26.800 with unfreedom. There's nowhere on the planet that is not 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:29.960 influenced by capitalism in the state, Like we can find 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:32.280 like you know, plastic trash at like the bottom of 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:35.679 the deepest trench in the Pacific Ocean. But influence is 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:38.960 not unfreedom. Influence is actually freedom. Freedom is not like 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:41.800 you know, I am an island, a sovereign island that 0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:44.240 you know is unencroached by other islands. It's that we 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:47.320 are all influencing each other, but without like you know, 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:51.920 undue pressure or constraint from like one of the beings 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:55.080 or one of the forces within this overall network. And 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:58.560 so on the one hand, like it's really important to 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:01.639 recognize that the states in iaginary, the state's model, the 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:03.960 state's goal and their practice is to make sure that 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:06.959 there is never any outside, that there is never any 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:11.440 real independence or freedom from it, And at the same time, 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:14.639 the state always fails in that goal that there has 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:18.080 always been an outside. Sometimes the outside is right under 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:22.040 the state's nose. Sometimes it's in the borderlands. Sometimes it's 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:25.000 in the crossing of borders. Sometimes it's in the legible spaces. 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:28.440 Sometimes it's in huge rebellions, and sometimes it's in the 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:32.640 choice that a single prisoner has, with no other friends nearby, 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:38.240 with no other connections, to stop eating, to stop going 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:40.720 along with it. And choice is a really important part 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:43.960 of control. Domination works a lot better if they give 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:47.080 us choices, if they give us elections, But there are 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:49.520 always going to be more choices than the ones that 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:50.320 we're presented with. 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:53.080 I like that. I think that that is the kind 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:58.359 of core of Harmonica, is the staring at the six 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:03.359 choices on the board, you know, being like, oh, you 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:06.000 can choose to wear the I don't know, Chay Gavara 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:09.440 shirt and become a like, you know, state sanctioned radical 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:11.359 or whatever. I don't know where I'm going with that. 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:14.000 Someone save me, you. 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:19.320 Know what six choices this podcast offers you. So sorry, 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:22.440 This is like I was encountering this while we were 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:24.600 like going through the script of the book, I was like, 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:27.359 I need to put an ad pivot in here, but 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:33.000 this is really heavy, and I feel really good pivoting 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:35.320 to ads, but we all also need to get paid. 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:39.880 And I am deeply, deeply grateful in my gend deflection 0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:42.680 for the sponsors. You make your own choices about whether 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:43.480 you listen to them. 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:46.400 I want everyone to understand how deeply we think about 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:49.480 these ad pivots, and see the inside baseball of how 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:52.120 we think about these ad pivots and how they keep 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:55.399 us awake at night to make the perfect ad pivot. 0:19:55.480 --> 0:19:58.760 Yes, readers, listeners, if I make we just all reach 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:03.000 through the ether, cross the internet, the physical distance that 0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:06.480 separates us, hold hands and genuflect to our sponsors. 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:07.120 That's right. 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:08.360 Thank you for that word, Hazel. 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:21.320 Yeah, you welcome, And here they are ads and we're back. 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:23.840 I for one am glad we found our new God, 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:28.119 whatever the last sponsor was. I feel bad for all 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:30.439 the people who got the other advertisers, because they're not 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:32.840 our new God. It's only the last other people are 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:37.000 so doomed. Who Yeah, it's really just a lottery. 0:20:37.200 --> 0:20:39.520 At least they're not following any of the other many 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:42.080 products and services that aren't advertised on the show that 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:42.960 are shortly. 0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:47.280 About to become because they're not on the show, or 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:49.240 because we live in a fascist seal state and everything's 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:50.120 illegal now. 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:55.200 Who knows. Let's talk about genre space instead. Okay, Yeah, Alan, 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:59.280 I want to chat about genre space. This is a 0:20:59.320 --> 0:21:03.240 book to me that really reads like something from like 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:06.800 a classic Golden Age of sci fi novella. It's got 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:11.840 this like really sweeping metaphor that's not one to one. 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:16.000 It's aiming towards like bigger sociological themes. There's like whole 0:21:16.040 --> 0:21:21.240 socratic asides about gender, and I guess like it's something 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:23.960 that I don't encounter very often anymore, And it was 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:26.840 really fun to read something that felt to me like, 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:31.240 what if we took kind of the tone and the 0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:34.160 theme of something like Braving New World or nineteen eighty four, 0:21:34.320 --> 0:21:36.760 something that like I really grew up in middle school on, 0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:41.080 and then gave it a fresh like modern anarchist, anti 0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:44.919 authoritarian twist. I don't know, I guess I'm curious, like, 0:21:46.480 --> 0:21:48.120 you know, could you tell us a little bit more 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:53.040 about what was interesting to you about that tone and 0:21:53.080 --> 0:21:57.240 like how you came to that as the tropes and 0:21:57.280 --> 0:21:58.920 the frameworks that you were going to work with in. 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:01.480 I love that you that you bring that out because 0:22:01.680 --> 0:22:04.440 like for me, that was like maybe this might seem 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:07.159 odd like almost like unconscious or like invisible to me, 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:09.600 because it's just kind of like I described this earlier 0:22:09.640 --> 0:22:11.919 as like a very feverish writing process, so like I 0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:13.959 was like so in it that I could barely see it. 0:22:14.840 --> 0:22:18.199