1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media Club Club Club Club. Hello, and welcome 2 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: to cooles On Media book Club, the only book club 3 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 1: where you don't have to do the reading because I 4 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: do it for you and I know what you're thinking. 5 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:25,319 Speaker 1: You're thinking, how has this been a proper book club 6 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: when you do the reading but then there's no discussion. Well, 7 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: this week we're going to have a discussion, and we 8 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,199 Speaker 1: have on not only the author, Alan Lee of the 9 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:38,880 Speaker 1: book that you just listened to, her Medica, but also 10 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: Hazel who helps a lot with book club, and so 11 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: that way it's an actual conversation between a bunch of people. 12 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:46,840 Speaker 1: How are you Alan? 13 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,840 Speaker 2: While the star with Alan, I don't know, I'm here, Yeah, 14 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 2: and a variety of complex and enough ble ways. 15 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 3: I love this for you, Hi, I'm also feeling complex 16 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 3: and enough ofble. That was an incredible description. I had 17 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 3: a little smoothie for breakfast. I got up early. I'm 18 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 3: so proud of myself. 19 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: We are here at the crack of ten am to 20 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: record for you Eastern time. Eastern time. That's how much 21 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: we all love you. So there's a book it's called Hermtica. 22 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 1: We just listened to it. Well, you all just listened 23 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: to it. Well, yeah or whatever, and we want to 24 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: talk about it. Hey, soe, what do you got? 25 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, let's start off with just where the book came from. 26 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 3: Can you tell us a little bit about where you 27 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 3: found inspiration for this and maybe where you typically find 28 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 3: inspiration for your fiction. 29 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 2: Well, every writing process is different. I did the vast 30 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 2: majority of the writing for her Medica in a very 31 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 2: frenzied month early in the COVID pandemic. So the feelings 32 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 2: of lockdown one may have shown up a little bit 33 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 2: in the claustrophobia of the work. Maybe, I mean probably 34 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 2: not context is real, but no, it definitely is real, 35 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:12,519 Speaker 2: and so that was a part of it, while also 36 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:18,519 Speaker 2: thinking about evolving technologies of social control and surveillance. Far 37 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 2: more than the pandemic, I would say social media actually 38 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 2: really shows up in this book, the compartmentalizing, siloed effect 39 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 2: of social media, how it allows people's reality to be controlled, 40 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:35,519 Speaker 2: how it really really limits and cuts down on people's 41 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:39,839 Speaker 2: social interactions while giving them the illusion of having more 42 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 2: social interactions, when in fact these interactions could be you know, 43 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 2: it could be AI, it could be robots on the 44 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 2: other end of things, and in any case, it's not tactile. 45 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 2: It's not you know, olfactory, like you're so rarely actually 46 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 2: in the room with people or walking down the street 47 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 2: with people. And then of course always and connected to that, 48 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 2: a lot of thinking about different options that the state 49 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:07,079 Speaker 2: may have for responding to the ecological crisis, to responding 50 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 2: to you know, these building pressures that may lead towards collapse, 51 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 2: and what different forms of totalitarianism might look like today. 52 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 1: Is it frustrating to have been prescient so fast about 53 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: the AI thing? Where Like, because I think in twenty twenty, 54 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, it was less likely that the people 55 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: that you would be arguing with on the internet were 56 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: literally not people, right, But these days more and more, 57 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 1: if you're arguing with someone on the internet, there's like 58 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: a really good chance or just straight up arguing with 59 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: a cell phone somewhere that is like running a program. 60 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 2: Personally, as an anarchist, I feel like that's a part 61 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 2: of our lot, is being like incredibly frustrated with Like 62 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 2: it's not like an ego thing. It's not like anna 63 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 2: I told you thing. It's like seeing people that you 64 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 2: care about jump joyfully onto a sledge and go full 65 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 2: speed down a snowy hill. Right into like a trash compactor, 66 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 2: and at the beginning you're like, there's a trash compactor 67 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 2: right there, and you have to watch this whole beautiful 68 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 2: descent and then just the horror of all the blood 69 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 2: and gore flying, and then do that over and over 70 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 2: again every year, every century. I think sometimes I wake 71 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 2: up with like, I don't know, Emma Goldman or Alexander Berkman, 72 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:25,039 Speaker 2: like screaming through my mouth, things that like should have 73 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 2: been obvious at the end of the nineteenth century, and 74 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 2: you know, we just keep diving headfirst into it, but 75 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 2: somehow we're surviving this trash compactor world. So yeah, it 76 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 2: can be frustrating and it can also be inspiring on 77 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 2: some dark levels that like you know, we're still here. 78 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, it's heavy, We're still here. 79 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 2: Give us another one. Let's go through the master again. 80 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, back onto the sled, motherfuckers. 81 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 3: Yeah. Alan, you're somebody who I came across first through 82 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 3: like nonfiction, particularly like How to Live in the trash 83 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 3: Compactor World that I am. I remember you had in 84 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 3: me of this book, and I went, oh, my friend, 85 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 3: my friend writes fiction too. I'm wondering if you could 86 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 3: talk about like I know that fiction is important to 87 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 3: you in your personal life, and I'm wondering specifically if 88 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,279 Speaker 3: you could talk about your relationship with fiction and how 89 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 3: the fiction that you write compliments your nonfiction work. 90 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's not really secret anymore. But I also 91 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 2: write a lot of nonfiction under another name, which you 92 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 2: know you might be able to find out any smooths 93 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 2: out there. 94 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: Or we've been saying it at the top and bottom 95 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: of every episode that people should check out your books. 96 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: We got permission from you to do this. I want 97 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:39,799 Speaker 1: to be really clear. 98 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, I know, yeah, absolutely, But how about 99 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 2: we don't say that name at all during this whole 100 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 2: interview and then we'll force our sloths out there in 101 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 2: case any of them haven't to listen to the Okay book. Yeah, well, 102 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 2: lo bar lobar for sleuthing these days, Like, I mean, 103 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 2: all of the big mysteries are obvious. Yes it is genocide. Yes, 104 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 2: we're heading towards billions of deaths and matflex Lincs like 105 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 2: they don't even have to hide it anymore. Yeah, from 106 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 2: early on, I had a lot more luck getting the 107 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 2: nonfiction published. Some of it is luck, some of it 108 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 2: is also that the fiction world is way more, especially 109 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 2: speculative fiction is way more monopolized or kind of concentrated 110 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 2: into like five massive evil corporations. They control such a 111 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 2: larger share of the speculative fiction that is published than 112 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 2: in the nonfiction world, where you have a lot more 113 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 2: independent presses that have managed to hold on, and that 114 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 2: might be starting to change again for the better as 115 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 2: far as fiction is concerned. But it can be really 116 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 2: difficult to get fiction published. So even though I might 117 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 2: like my nonfiction writing is definitely way more widespread. I've 118 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,559 Speaker 2: been writing fiction since I was a little kid, both 119 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 2: as a form of survival and a form of pure 120 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 2: unmitigated joy. When I was a teeny little kid, I 121 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 2: would just kind of walk back and forth in the 122 00:06:57,760 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 2: woods or you know, if I was stuck in the 123 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 2: half us, like in a house, just kind of imagining 124 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 2: different worlds and stories and whatnot. And also, like as 125 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 2: one becomes more and more aware of like the world 126 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 2: around them, I don't want to take like a utilitarian 127 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 2: approach either to nonfiction or to fiction. I think they 128 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 2: both can and should be acts of joy, of desperation, 129 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 2: of rage, of curiosity. But they're both, you know, tools 130 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 2: for understanding the world around us for interacting with the 131 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 2: world around us. And basically, the real world can't exist 132 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 2: without the imaginary world. And that's true on a mathematical level. 133 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 2: That's also true on the level of like how societies 134 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 2: organize themselves, like we need imagination, and imagination can also 135 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 2: really allow us to better understand or change the world 136 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 2: that we live in. 137 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: But if that were true, then Marx's pure materialism might 138 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: not be fully correct. And so I actually think you 139 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: must be wrong because Marx said that everything is material. 140 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 2: I'm probably wrong. And yeah, and though I do prefer 141 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 2: cash money like it seems like money, I don't know, 142 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 2: it's almost as though money were not that material. 143 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: Trying to say that social constructs are real. 144 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 3: I do think this is one of the great gifts 145 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 3: of anarchism, though, is that, like a lot of our 146 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 3: great anarchists are like also fiction writers, you know, like 147 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 3: Ursula kayle Wynn was predominantly a fiction writer. I think 148 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 3: this is like a thing that's really special at the 149 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 3: anarchist tradition is that we are so interwoven in with 150 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 3: fiction and with imagination, and along with exploring how big 151 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 3: themes show up in our actual lives, also exploring how 152 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 3: things could be different or how things could be worse. 153 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that we kind of like missed a period. 154 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 1: When I first started writing fiction or like reading about 155 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 1: anarchist fiction, I was like, oh, where is it? And 156 00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: I had trouble finding it a while ago, And that's 157 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: changed completely. And then yeah, if I look back historically, 158 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: there is so much fiction in the anarchist movement and 159 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 1: like the left and you know whatever more broadly, and 160 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: it just kind of it stopped being the thing that 161 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 1: people were focused on for a little while. And focus 162 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: on is the wrong word, right, I don't think we 163 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: should all like writing novels isn't the way the way 164 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: that we change the world, right, It's like one of 165 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,079 Speaker 1: the ways that we influence the world and also survive 166 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: inside the trash compactor. 167 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 3: But Margaret, you know how else we survive inside the 168 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 3: trash compactory influence the world? 169 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: Is it the fact that our podcast is sponsored by 170 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 1: goods and services that people can rely on for every 171 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: single need they have, and we can rely on for 172 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: modest income. 173 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 3: I do like a modest income, and I do love 174 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 3: the fact that I hate capitalism, with the strong exception 175 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,359 Speaker 3: of anything that is plugged on this podcast. 176 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: That's right, here's all the stuff we personally love that 177 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: we have absolutely no control over because it's just ads, 178 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: and we're back. 179 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 2: I personally love to shower with that product that was 180 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 2: just advertised. 181 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 3: Oh, especially the Internet mattresses. You love to shower with 182 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 3: those Internet mattresses. Well. 183 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: The best part is that there's like a whole series 184 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: of categories of ads that we have completely banned, but 185 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: sometimes they slip in anyway. And the most famous example 186 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:30,839 Speaker 1: of this is that a couple of years ago, school 187 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: Zone Media had some ads for joining the Washington State 188 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: Highway Patrol. Oh God, And then I was listening once 189 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: and I got an ad for become a jailer. 190 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 2: Oh jeez, I. 191 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 3: Got an ad once for become a jailer in Ohio specifically. 192 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I was driving through Ohio when that 193 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 1: happened to me. So if you're listening to Ohio, sorry, yeah, 194 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: don't do that as an exception anyway. So I want 195 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 1: to fuss at you about this book. I really liked 196 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,959 Speaker 1: this book. I just read it for the second time 197 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: to a bunch of people. And there's a point near 198 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: the end of this book days is in job search, 199 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: jail and in job search jail days is like thinking through, well, 200 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 1: what if I go study moss but then work with 201 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:25,079 Speaker 1: people to step outside the system. And you know, if 202 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 1: this was a neat simple narrative, this is what would happen. Right, 203 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: And I recognize that everyone has different ways of responding 204 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,679 Speaker 1: to things, but that's what I would do, right, And 205 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: I think that there's this interesting thing. Right, you're presenting 206 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 1: this like very grand metaphor, and I think in the 207 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: classic science fiction way you're presenting this grand metaphor for 208 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: how you know all of our choices are illusory? Right, 209 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: I don't know how to pronounce that word, but it 210 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,559 Speaker 1: turns out illusionary isn't a word, And I'm really annoyed 211 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: by that, because illusionary should be the word, because it 212 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: makes more sense than illusory illusory. 213 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 2: I think illusory job as a pronounce like brings out illusions. 214 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that makes more sense. I have this problem 215 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,599 Speaker 1: where I read more than I talk, which is impressive 216 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: because I talk for a living. But you have these 217 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 1: illusionary choices. I'm going to try and make this fucking make. 218 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 2: We're allowed to make worse. Every word was made by 219 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 2: a person, Yeah. 220 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:19,839 Speaker 1: Whoa until the future and when they're all made by 221 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: robots and then we're shot if we use the wrong ones. 222 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: In this job search metaphor jail basically saying that, like 223 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: all choices that we make are totally illusionary, and you know, 224 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: illusion of freedom, right, and there is no outside. The 225 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: system is one of the main things in this metaphorical world, right, 226 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: But all three of us are currently alive, and all 227 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: three of us perceive ourselves as doing a complicated navigation 228 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 1: with a system to kind of live outside and to 229 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: try to open up the concept of an outside. So 230 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: in my mind, the metaphor of this book and the 231 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: actions that the character is choosing work within the context 232 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: of this metaphor and not within the real world that 233 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: it's representing. I don't have a question here. I'm just 234 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: trying to challenge you about this part. 235 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, so first referring really strictly to the story, and 236 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 2: then to get theoretical if I'm may after that. I 237 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 2: don't see the book as a strict metaphor. Obviously there's 238 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,439 Speaker 2: a lot of metaphor in it. Like I also intend 239 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 2: it to be like a world that works, a world 240 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 2: that might be our world someday hopefully not, but might 241 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 2: be in addition to a reflection on the world that 242 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 2: we currently inhabit. I think Days makes the choice that 243 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 2: makes the most sense for them. Days is a little 244 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 2: bit crazy. Days is not like everyone else in terms 245 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 2: of how like emotionally and psychologically they relate with the 246 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 2: rest of the world. And instead of them being cast 247 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 2: as neurodivergent, which in my humble opinion is just like 248 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 2: a stupid, like literal synonym for abnormal, their craziness actually 249 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 2: gives them strengths that other people don't have. It also 250 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 2: deprives them of, like some of the resources of like 251 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 2: stronger human connection, where they could just soldier on, you know, 252 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 2: through the lies. They could soldier on through that prison 253 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 2: world and keep surviving. So dying or possibly dying suicide 254 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 2: for them is a choice. I mean there's also a 255 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 2: great sadness to it, like Days also like an habit's 256 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 2: like a very sad world. They can't really survive in 257 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 2: a prison once they realize that it's a prison. And 258 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 2: that's the reality for a lot of us, you know, 259 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 2: in this world, in the real world, like there is 260 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 2: always an outside, there are almost always other choices until 261 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 2: we end up in maximum security prison. In maximum security prison. 262 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 2: I mean, your choices are you know, basically eat or 263 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 2: or don't eat, like try to kill yourself or try 264 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 2: to survive because of like the extreme level of physical constraint. 265 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 2: But like you know, outside of prison, in in you know, 266 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 2: the rest of the world, a lot of us end 267 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 2: up taking our own lives as like a response to 268 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 2: like prison society, and that's what Days does. I did 269 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 2: bring in a couple other characters to reflect that there 270 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 2: were other choices, but yeah, I just I guess I 271 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 2: feel like that that was kind of where you know, 272 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 2: this character would end up based on who they are. 273 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: No, it makes sense, and like it does make sense 274 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: as the end of the story. I just have this 275 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: like I think it was that reading the like, oh, well, 276 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: this other story would be like this, and I'm like, ah, 277 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: that's the one I would pick, right, But I also 278 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: do think it's kind of worth reflecting on. Not that 279 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: people can only write about their own experiences, but the 280 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: first time I met you, you handed me a book 281 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: of short stories that you had written in prison. I 282 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: can see how the experience of having like absolutely no 283 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: control might have influenced Like, I think a lot of 284 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: people would write this as like a raw thought experiment. 285 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: They're like, oh, what if I was in job search prison, 286 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: but you've been in well, I think it wasn't job 287 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: search prison that you were in, But I don't know, 288 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: how does this relate? 289 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was in real prison, different security levels from 290 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 2: maximum security to minimum security. That definitely relates. I mean, 291 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 2: that definitely marked an influenced to me as a person. 292 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 2: And at the same time, one of the most remarkable 293 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 2: things about it was when I went in, there was 294 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 2: nothing new about the experience. There was nothing that didn't 295 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 2: remind me about the psychiatric ward one time in high 296 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 2: school when I was hospitalized, or high school itself, or 297 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 2: all of these other institutions. Like, we really do live 298 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 2: in a prison society. That's not just a hyperbolic metaphor. 299 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 2: And so like I mean, being in like an actual 300 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 2: prison definitely like changes you and influences you. But also 301 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 2: it's not an other reality, it's not exceptional. It's so 302 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 2: similar to all the other institutions that make up our society. 303 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 2: And that kind of also brings us to this question 304 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 2: of like the outside of like you know, what's you know, 305 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 2: what's potentially outside of all of this, Like I think 306 00:16:55,600 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 2: a lot of radical academics will construct these really beautiful theories, 307 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 2: these little air tight theories almost you know, air tight, 308 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 2: like you know, certain buildings we might have just recently referred. 309 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: To hermetically sealed. 310 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, these hermetically sealed theories exactly, thank you. And I 311 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 2: think one of the problems with that is, in a 312 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:22,360 Speaker 2: very kind of unconsciously colonial Western way, they're confusing influence 313 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 2: with unfreedom. There's nowhere on the planet that is not 314 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 2: influenced by capitalism in the state, Like we can find 315 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 2: like you know, plastic trash at like the bottom of 316 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,679 Speaker 2: the deepest trench in the Pacific Ocean. But influence is 317 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 2: not unfreedom. Influence is actually freedom. Freedom is not like 318 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 2: you know, I am an island, a sovereign island that 319 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 2: you know is unencroached by other islands. It's that we 320 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 2: are all influencing each other, but without like you know, 321 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 2: undue pressure or constraint from like one of the beings 322 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 2: or one of the forces within this overall network. And 323 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 2: so on the one hand, like it's really important to 324 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 2: recognize that the states in iaginary, the state's model, the 325 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 2: state's goal and their practice is to make sure that 326 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,959 Speaker 2: there is never any outside, that there is never any 327 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 2: real independence or freedom from it, And at the same time, 328 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 2: the state always fails in that goal that there has 329 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 2: always been an outside. Sometimes the outside is right under 330 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 2: the state's nose. Sometimes it's in the borderlands. Sometimes it's 331 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 2: in the crossing of borders. Sometimes it's in the legible spaces. 332 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 2: Sometimes it's in huge rebellions, and sometimes it's in the 333 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:32,640 Speaker 2: choice that a single prisoner has, with no other friends nearby, 334 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 2: with no other connections, to stop eating, to stop going 335 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 2: along with it. And choice is a really important part 336 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 2: of control. Domination works a lot better if they give 337 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 2: us choices, if they give us elections, But there are 338 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 2: always going to be more choices than the ones that 339 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 2: we're presented with. 340 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: I like that. I think that that is the kind 341 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 1: of core of Harmonica, is the staring at the six 342 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 1: choices on the board, you know, being like, oh, you 343 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: can choose to wear the I don't know, Chay Gavara 344 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 1: shirt and become a like, you know, state sanctioned radical 345 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 1: or whatever. I don't know where I'm going with that. 346 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: Someone save me, you. 347 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 3: Know what six choices this podcast offers you. So sorry, 348 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 3: This is like I was encountering this while we were 349 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 3: like going through the script of the book, I was like, 350 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 3: I need to put an ad pivot in here, but 351 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 3: this is really heavy, and I feel really good pivoting 352 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 3: to ads, but we all also need to get paid. 353 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:39,880 Speaker 3: And I am deeply, deeply grateful in my gend deflection 354 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,680 Speaker 3: for the sponsors. You make your own choices about whether 355 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 3: you listen to them. 356 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,400 Speaker 1: I want everyone to understand how deeply we think about 357 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: these ad pivots, and see the inside baseball of how 358 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,120 Speaker 1: we think about these ad pivots and how they keep 359 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 1: us awake at night to make the perfect ad pivot. 360 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 2: Yes, readers, listeners, if I make we just all reach 361 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 2: through the ether, cross the internet, the physical distance that 362 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 2: separates us, hold hands and genuflect to our sponsors. 363 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:07,120 Speaker 1: That's right. 364 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:08,360 Speaker 2: Thank you for that word, Hazel. 365 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, you welcome, And here they are ads and we're back. 366 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: I for one am glad we found our new God, 367 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 1: whatever the last sponsor was. I feel bad for all 368 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,439 Speaker 1: the people who got the other advertisers, because they're not 369 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: our new God. It's only the last other people are 370 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: so doomed. Who Yeah, it's really just a lottery. 371 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 3: At least they're not following any of the other many 372 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 3: products and services that aren't advertised on the show that 373 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 3: are shortly. 374 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: About to become because they're not on the show, or 375 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: because we live in a fascist seal state and everything's 376 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:50,120 Speaker 1: illegal now. 377 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 3: Who knows. Let's talk about genre space instead. Okay, Yeah, Alan, 378 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 3: I want to chat about genre space. This is a 379 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 3: book to me that really reads like something from like 380 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 3: a classic Golden Age of sci fi novella. It's got 381 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 3: this like really sweeping metaphor that's not one to one. 382 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 3: It's aiming towards like bigger sociological themes. There's like whole 383 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 3: socratic asides about gender, and I guess like it's something 384 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 3: that I don't encounter very often anymore, And it was 385 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 3: really fun to read something that felt to me like, 386 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 3: what if we took kind of the tone and the 387 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 3: theme of something like Braving New World or nineteen eighty four, 388 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 3: something that like I really grew up in middle school on, 389 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 3: and then gave it a fresh like modern anarchist, anti 390 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 3: authoritarian twist. I don't know, I guess I'm curious, like, 391 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:48,120 Speaker 3: you know, could you tell us a little bit more 392 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 3: about what was interesting to you about that tone and 393 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 3: like how you came to that as the tropes and 394 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 3: the frameworks that you were going to work with in. 395 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 2: I love that you that you bring that out because 396 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 2: like for me, that was like maybe this might seem 397 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 2: odd like almost like unconscious or like invisible to me, 398 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 2: because it's just kind of like I described this earlier 399 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 2: as like a very feverish writing process, so like I 400 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:13,959 Speaker 2: was like so in it that I could barely see it. 401 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,199 Speaker 2: And really some of the big influential works for me 402 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 2: growing up, and you know, maybe also like in my twenties, 403 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,199 Speaker 2: let's see, I think you mentioned Kurt Vonnegut, like you know, 404 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 2: that definitely figures also a lot of you know, the 405 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 2: major works of magical realism, whether it's like Gabotie America's 406 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 2: one hundred Years of Solitude or like Bulgako, Smaster and Margarita. 407 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 3: I'll also say, like the Truman Show, Like this book 408 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 3: feels in a lot of ways like a reverse Truman Show. 409 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. 410 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: The sky is real, so the sky is fake? 411 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Getting even older, like before nineteen eighty four, 412 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 2: there's this lesser known novel by You've gain Zematin, we 413 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 2: early Soviet novel where you know, one of the people 414 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 2: to speak out around like this socialist revolution that was 415 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 2: quickly turning into a healthscape was a science fiction writer, 416 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 2: and he wrote something that was certainly a huge influence 417 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 2: on Orwell and is also you know, very much about 418 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:23,199 Speaker 2: a surveillance society. I think a lot of those older 419 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 2: works were a much greater influence on me than a 420 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 2: lot of newer speculative fiction. Which is not to say 421 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,239 Speaker 2: that the newer speculative fiction isn't there. I think there 422 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 2: have been some really amazing works coming out lately. There's 423 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 2: also been a lot of really mediocre stuff that gets huge, huge, 424 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 2: huge platforms. But the great stuff I think still really 425 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 2: has to generally like pass this filter, which is designed 426 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 2: more for the marketing of books. It's designed more for 427 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:59,479 Speaker 2: the limitations of editors and agents that are looking at 428 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 2: you know, hundreds of manuscripts or pitches a day, and 429 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 2: so really like the way that, like if we differentiated 430 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 2: between a tool and a machine, we have more choice. 431 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 2: With a tool, we have more craft. With a tool, 432 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 2: we can use it to amplify our abilities, to amplify 433 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 2: our effect, whereas a machine we just become adjuncts to 434 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 2: the machine. We have to feed material into the machine 435 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 2: following parameters set by the machine. And I'd actually love 436 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 2: to hear more from you, Margaret about your experiences with 437 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 2: both like larger publishers and independent publishers. But yeah, I 438 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,719 Speaker 2: think for me that's been I guess I've sort of 439 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 2: resisted some of the generic rules that have kind of 440 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 2: come up in the last like ten or twenty years 441 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,679 Speaker 2: that are really set by the industry slash machine, and 442 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 2: I think I've kind of immersed myself more in, you know, 443 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 2: looking back to other works of speculative fiction from you know, 444 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 2: decades and decades ago. 445 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: I do have a different take on the way that 446 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: publishing is working right now. I actually think that the 447 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: publishing world does not shy away from radical content. It 448 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 1: is that there's specific asks in genre around form. And 449 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: this has been true, I think forever, because genre fiction 450 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: literally by being genre fiction, has a certain commercial aspect 451 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,159 Speaker 1: to it and a certain like popular fiction aspect to it, 452 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: which I actually think is one of its more interesting advantages, right. 453 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: I think it reaches more people than literature often, and 454 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,439 Speaker 1: so yes, there is like kind of like lowest common 455 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: denominator stuff, and like the Marvel movies or things like 456 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: that right, But I actually think that the genre fiction 457 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 1: world right now is like alive with radicalism. And I 458 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,679 Speaker 1: think that even at the major publishers, most of the 459 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,880 Speaker 1: individual editors who are making these decisions are themselves very 460 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 1: radical or at least progressive, and tend to be progressive 461 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 1: who are open to radical ideas. This has been my experience. 462 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: I remember writing a short story about people using drones 463 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: to kill CEOs and how that was fine. Yeah, And 464 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,199 Speaker 1: I remember being like, no one will ever touch this, 465 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,360 Speaker 1: and Strange Horizons published it and did a good job 466 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: with it, and it was reasonably well received. But I 467 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: think that there are absolutely genre restrictions that change over time, 468 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: and you kind of have to play within them about 469 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: ways of describing characters and ways that plots work, and 470 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 1: like who the interiority is with and things like that 471 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: that are like larger social conventions of form. But I 472 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: do think that it is interesting and good to be 473 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 1: able to just also sometimes be like, but that's not 474 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,919 Speaker 1: what this book is. I don't fucking care, you know. 475 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 1: And my other aside is it just to be really 476 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 1: nerdy about anarchist fiction. You mentioned Vonnegut, you mentioned Huxley 477 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:53,360 Speaker 1: and or Well and Vonnegut was a pacifist anarchist. Very explicitly, 478 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 1: Huxley was an anarchist. Huxley specifically said in the introduction 479 00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: to I Think Island, his utopian novel that I have 480 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 1: read since I as a teenager, he says, what the 481 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:07,159 Speaker 1: world needs is decentralization of a krapotkinisk nature. And so 482 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 1: what he's saying is what the world is needed is anarchism, 483 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: you know, and referencing Peter Krepakin, And of course Orwell 484 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 1: is a very complicated figure, but was certainly willing to 485 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 1: throw grenades at fascists and get shot through the neck 486 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 1: for that process. And so I will forgive a lot 487 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: of decisions that he made based on that. And he 488 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: also specifically said, if I had gone to Spain to 489 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 1: fight again, I would have gone with the anarchists, if 490 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: I had known what I knew going into it, you know. 491 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 1: Instead he fought with a anti state Marxist militia, the 492 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 1: POM or whatever. More complicated than that. See the entire 493 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 1: first year of cool people who did cool stuff for 494 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 1: me talking about the Spanish Civil War and also my 495 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: episode about Orwell. But I think it's interesting that a 496 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,360 Speaker 1: lot of the people that we will reference as these 497 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 1: sort of like grand figures of science fiction and like 498 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: speculative concepts, and even to throw one that I'm like 499 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,880 Speaker 1: always sort of afraid to throw in clockwork Orange Man. 500 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:07,719 Speaker 1: Anthony Burgess was also an anarchist, and you know, obviously 501 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: the movie of that is a very interesting, complicated edge 502 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: lord piece of fiction that is trying to explain a 503 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,239 Speaker 1: social idea. And I am not really even trying to 504 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 1: say anything about that right now, but I think that's 505 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 1: interesting that it's coming from people who have this very 506 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:29,400 Speaker 1: specific set of critiques where they believe in both socialism 507 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,160 Speaker 1: and freedom, you know, where they believe we should take 508 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 1: care of each other but also like be in charge 509 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 1: of ourselves and that the state shouldn't be this massive 510 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: domineering force. And so it's like really interesting to me 511 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 1: that the Golden Age, I don't know if golden Age 512 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: is the right word, but all of these like classic 513 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 1: works of dystopia and stuff, we're written by people who 514 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: have this set of values. 515 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Publishing currently, they're kind of capturing and publishing 516 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 2: like a huge number of books of you know, new stories. 517 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 2: And on the one hand, you know they're doing this 518 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 2: in like a pretty harmful marketplace of ideas sort of 519 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 2: way where they're like algorithmically from the first day. And 520 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 2: so this is important for any you know, any new 521 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 2: authors out there, like get all of your friends, get 522 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 2: everyone you can to like help you boost your book 523 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 2: before it even you know, hits the shelves because oh yeah, 524 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 2: with pre orders, pre orders, you know, campaigns buzz like 525 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 2: you know whatever, because like algorithms do so much of 526 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 2: the decision making. Now about like a major publisher, they're 527 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 2: not just you know, publishing like a dozen books here, 528 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 2: they're publishing hundreds or thousands. And what they're doing is 529 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 2: they're scooping up intellectual property, right, so they get a 530 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 2: big cut. They may even be mediocre renditions of a 531 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 2: story they get scooped up by Hollywood and turned into 532 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 2: like a blockbuster film that there's like a whole bunch 533 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 2: of money in. And otherwise they're basically just from like 534 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 2: day one, up voting or downvoting a book. And so 535 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 2: they might be publishing like thousands of titles with the 536 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 2: hopes that they get one or two best sellers out 537 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 2: of it, and so all of those other books they 538 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 2: get published, this author feels like you they had this 539 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 2: amazing experience of like, hey, my stories gotten out there, 540 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 2: and really it's kind of buried in an intellectual property vault. 541 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 2: So on the one hand, you know, we have this 542 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 2: like really damaging marketplace of ideas. But on the other hand, 543 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 2: it does also really mean that the publishing industry is open, 544 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 2: just like you said, like a huge diversity of different 545 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 2: kinds of stories, to radical stories, to people who just 546 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 2: because of their gender or the color of their skin, 547 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 2: you know, might have been barred from like a chance 548 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 2: of publishing speculative fiction in the not so distant past. 549 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that brings us into like a nice outro. 550 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 3: I wanted to end on just asking y'all what you've 551 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 3: been reading recently, anything you've been enjoying, anything you would recommend. 552 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 2: Well, let's see, I have definitely been keeping up on 553 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 2: what Arcati Martin has been writing. That's the author of 554 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:56,719 Speaker 2: A Memory called Empire. Also m Mieco Candon, Hillary Mantell's 555 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 2: historical fiction series A Mirror in the Lights. I'm currently 556 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 2: the last one in that trilogy. And then you know, 557 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 2: I always, you know, go back to some old classics. Lately, 558 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 2: I've been finding a lot of soulace in Calvin and Hobbes, 559 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 2: which is I think just some of the best metafiction 560 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 2: that's ever been written. 561 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: One of the first zines that was ever handed when 562 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 1: I became an anarchist was like a big oversized zine 563 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: that was like eight and a half by eleven, stapled 564 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: in the corner, and it was Calvin and Hobbes as anarchist. 565 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 1: And they didn't change any of the words in any 566 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: of the Calvin and Hobbes comics. I remember that they 567 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: just like organized them by like critiques of society, critiques 568 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: of school, critiques of work. 569 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so good. 570 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: I finished reading a book that is coming out soon 571 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: by Carter Keen. It's called Morsel, and it's a horror 572 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: novella that's really good, and I don't know has good 573 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: like radical politics woven throughout a story about an ancient monster. 574 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: I really liked that, Hazel, you read anything good. 575 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 3: I have mostly been reading things that are like cozy 576 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 3: and gentle, which is not quite the vibe of the 577 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 3: things that you both were plugging. But I've really enjoyed 578 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 3: A Song for the Wild Belt by Becky Chambers, which 579 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 3: is a novella about a tea monk who has a 580 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 3: like steampunk ass bicycle powered little tea cart that they 581 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 3: ride around, and then they meet this robot who like 582 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 3: helps them go on a journey, and it's it's very sweet. 583 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 3: It's about burnout and reconnecting with nature and regrowing part 584 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 3: of your soul. I also really enjoyed A Witch's Guide 585 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 3: to Magical Innkeeping by sangu Mandana, which is about a 586 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 3: witch who runs an inn and is trying to get 587 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 3: her magic back and has a lot about disability, grief 588 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 3: and also burnout and found family and what magic really is. 589 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 3: So that I've been enjoying. If you want something a 590 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 3: little bit more edgy, I did also recently reread The 591 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 3: Word for World as Forest by Ursula Kulin, which is 592 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 3: a really good novella about It's like Ursula's perspectives on 593 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,719 Speaker 3: kind of the Vietnam War and also generally on colonialism 594 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 3: and exploitation. Yeah, it's good. It's violent in a cathartic way. 595 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 3: It's revolt. So what Star Wars ripped off it is 596 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 3: what Star Wars ripped off Alatar. 597 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 1: Well, so Star Wars rips it off because and Or 598 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: is the name of the like city that the creatures 599 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: that are totally not Ewoks are based out of. 600 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 3: They also are human, like it's important that they are. 601 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 3: They are kind of described as like short teddy bird people, 602 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 3: but they are genetically also human. 603 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that just the like, I don't know. 604 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 1: As soon as I realized that their town was called 605 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: and Or, I was like, this is just literally what 606 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 1: the Ewoks are based off. This is just the word 607 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,479 Speaker 1: for worlds. Forest is my favorite Star Wars film as 608 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 1: a kid. Anyway, anyone got anything to plug here at Alan? 609 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: You got anything you've been writing? 610 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 2: Well? Actually so, I, like I said at the beginning, 611 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 2: I've been writing fiction forever. I have just manuscripts and 612 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,360 Speaker 2: manuscripts that are waiting publication, and I might be getting 613 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 2: some good news. There's a really strong possibility that in 614 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,319 Speaker 2: the next year or two you will see on the 615 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:27,280 Speaker 2: shelves at the independent bookstore near you and certainly not Amazon, 616 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 2: the first in a trilogy called Mad Hatter. So yeah, 617 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 2: we're just waiting for an official announcement, but this is 618 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:39,399 Speaker 2: a pre official announcement that yeah, my next sci fi book, 619 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 2: Mad Hatter, should be getting published. 620 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 1: Okay, all right, Well that's it for Cool Zone Media 621 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 1: Book Club this week. And next week we'll bring you 622 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: more stories. 623 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:51,600 Speaker 3: Yay. 624 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: Thanks, thanks y'all,