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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff

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Speaker 1: I never told you are picture of iHeartRadio. And today

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Speaker 1: we are once again thrilled to be joined by the fabulous,

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Speaker 1: the fantastic Bridget Todd to welcome Bridget.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 3: It's always such a joy when I get to start

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Speaker 3: my week talking to you all.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I feel like you have an extra glow. Maybe

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Speaker 4: it's because you've been like soaking in all of the

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Speaker 4: sun on the beautiful beaches abroad. I've been stalking you

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Speaker 4: on Instagram and I'm like, how is this woman always traveling?

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Speaker 4: And I miss and I'm sad that I'm not.

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Speaker 2: I'm just kidding. Oh you all should have come.

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Speaker 3: We actually so, I was in Mazatlan, Mexico for a

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Speaker 3: clips to be in a hospitality. We actually it was

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Speaker 3: one of those trips where we'd invited all of our friends.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna get a big house on the beach.

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Speaker 3: It's gonna be amazing, and then all of our friends

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Speaker 3: are in and then one by one by one by one,

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Speaker 3: I'm just there.

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Speaker 2: Alone, essentially.

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Speaker 4: No very enjoyed it.

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Speaker 3: I enjoyed it. I love Mexico. It is one of

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Speaker 3: my favorite places. It was my first time in Mazatlan.

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Speaker 3: Ten out of ten completely recommend.

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Speaker 5: Okay, did you see the eclipse and totality?

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Speaker 2: I saw the eclipse of totality.

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Speaker 3: It was my first time ever being in the path

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Speaker 3: of totality of an eclipse.

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Speaker 2: Have you have either of you ever experienced this?

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Speaker 6: No?

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Speaker 5: Yes? Once?

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Speaker 2: What were your thoughts, Annie, I am dying to know.

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Speaker 5: Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 1: If this was a different podcast, we would go into

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Speaker 1: a whole separate thing because I had like a relationship

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Speaker 1: issue that was happening on this day.

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Speaker 5: And kind of a drama situation.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of times when I look back at it,

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Speaker 1: a lot of the pictures I took, I was like,

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Speaker 1: oh wow, we were fighting. But it was also a

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Speaker 1: work event that I was at, so there was that layer.

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Speaker 1: But it was beautiful. It was so cool. I it

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Speaker 1: sounds silly, but I love space, like I like love.

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Speaker 1: The stars are like my favorite thing, So it was

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Speaker 1: really really cool to see. It was not what I

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Speaker 1: quite expected because the glasses. Samanth and I were joking

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Speaker 1: about this recently, but the glasses feel so funny because

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Speaker 1: you're like looking around like they're not working and then

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Speaker 1: you like find the space you're supposed to look at.

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Speaker 1: I was just like very very happy to see it, honestly,

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Speaker 1: like all that drama I was working aside, I remember thinking,

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Speaker 1: this is really cool that I get to see this,

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Speaker 1: and I'm really happy that I get to see this.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that was what I remember too.

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Speaker 3: I burst into tears, and the next day I woke

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Speaker 3: up in the middle of the night in a panic

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Speaker 3: because I was worried that I will forget what it

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Speaker 3: looked like being in totality like that, Like that's how

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Speaker 3: like I had never seen it, but he'd never see

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Speaker 3: anything like it. Anybody who listens to their no girls

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Speaker 3: on the internet is probably so sick of me talking

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Speaker 3: about this eclipse, and I am fully making seeing this

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Speaker 3: total eclipse like my personality. But it's kind But yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'm already planning where I will go for the next one,

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Speaker 3: So I guess I will see y'all in I think,

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Speaker 3: what is it, Spain?

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Speaker 2: So that's that's the one.

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Speaker 3: The next the next one that you can see if

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Speaker 3: you can go to Spain and see I think in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 2: Ok So, but then the one that you're referring.

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Speaker 3: To, Sam is like, don't quote me on any of this,

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Speaker 3: but that's supposed to be like the big one, the

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Speaker 3: big one that we will probably be able.

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Speaker 2: To see in our lifetimes.

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Speaker 3: And I think it's in parts of the African continent.

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Speaker 2: I want to say, Morocco. Don't quote me on that either.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I did say at one point, like you would be

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Speaker 4: able to view it in the US. That's the next

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Speaker 4: time you'll be able to. And I don't know it

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Speaker 4: is like the actual like the totality, as you say,

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Speaker 4: but like I don't know, because I know nothing about this.

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Speaker 4: That's the only I.

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Speaker 2: Know the date, in no kindness for this past eclipse.

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Speaker 3: Earlier this month, we had done so much planning, including

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Speaker 3: like looking at farmer's almanacs to see what the weather

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Speaker 3: and cloud coverage is like this time of year. And

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Speaker 3: that's how we settled on Mazetlan, Mexico, because it was

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Speaker 3: the place that is closest to us on the East

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Speaker 3: coast in the United States that was most likely to

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Speaker 3: not have cloud coverage in April because you could see

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Speaker 3: it from Vermont and upstate New York and Texas. But

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Speaker 3: a lot of those places in April might be cloudy,

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Speaker 3: and so I have friends who were in Vermont and

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Speaker 3: Upstate New York who were like, Oh, We're just gonna

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Speaker 3: see it from our house, and I'm like, oh, will you.

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Speaker 3: Then on the morning of the eclipse in Mazetlan, Mexico,

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Speaker 3: we'd been there for a week. Every single day it's

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Speaker 3: like a beautiful, cloudless, blue sky day. So I wake

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Speaker 3: up on April eighth, the day of the eclipse, and

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Speaker 3: it's cloudy, the first day we've had in Mexico for

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Speaker 3: the entire week we have been there. Luckily, during the

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Speaker 3: eclipse time, the clouds did part, so we did get

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Speaker 3: to see it, but there would have been a lot

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Speaker 3: of feelings had we not been able to see it.

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Speaker 5: It's a lot of pressure to put on a trip

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Speaker 5: like that. Honestly, it's pressure to put on the eclipse.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it exists.

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Speaker 2: It's not their fault.

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Speaker 3: So you can can contact like the manager of the

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Speaker 3: Sky to be like, actually, we didn't get a good view, and.

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Speaker 4: We were like, okay, for y'all who are Christians here,

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Speaker 4: tell this got it. Truly, we get canceled.

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Speaker 2: We were like.

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Speaker 3: Getting a little superstitious, like the things that we were

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Speaker 3: doing to try to like ensure good sky. It was

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Speaker 3: getting a little a little out there.

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Speaker 2: We'll just leave it at that.

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Speaker 4: He brought a shaman in. I guess we're going in.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, Bridgiet, I want to ask so many questions.

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Speaker 2: About this later.

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Speaker 5: Oh well, I'm very glad that you got to see it.

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Speaker 5: It is.

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Speaker 1: It is amazing, like truly and over on the other

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Speaker 1: podcast I Do Savor, we did an episode on like

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Speaker 1: weird companies making money off of the eclipse with their products,

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Speaker 1: and I have heard from so many people about the

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Speaker 1: foods they made for the eclipse, and it's brought me

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Speaker 1: so much story. So oh oh yeah, like totalityea, like tea, oh,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, so many things like this. So I

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Speaker 1: feel like we have a couple of we have some

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Speaker 1: years to brainstorm things like this.

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Speaker 4: Next giant celebration, but keep that.

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Speaker 5: In the back of your head, you know.

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Speaker 3: Oh, next time, definitely doing eclipse themed at food party

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Speaker 3: or dinner party or something.

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Speaker 2: I love that.

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Speaker 5: Yes, there's a so many puns.

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Speaker 1: I will I will hold myself back for now, but

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Speaker 1: I have to say I am very very excited to

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Speaker 1: talk about the topic he brought today, Bridget because it

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Speaker 1: is a thing that I love of like the history

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Speaker 1: of something I think a lot of people don't question

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Speaker 1: the history of and it's fascinating and I didn't know

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Speaker 1: about it. So can you tell us what we're discussing today?

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Speaker 3: I feel the exact same way, And today we are

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Speaker 3: talking about the Lenna image.

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Speaker 2: Is this something that either of you had ever heard of?

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Speaker 5: I do not know. I've not known.

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Speaker 2: So even if.

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Speaker 3: You're listening and you're like, what is the Lenna image,

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Speaker 3: I've never heard of this image. I've never seen this image.

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Speaker 3: Even if you don't know the story and you don't

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Speaker 3: feel like you've ever seen this image before, you kind

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Speaker 3: of do know this image, because, as Linda Kinsler puts

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Speaker 3: it in a really meaty piece for wireds that I'll

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Speaker 3: be referencing a few times in this conversation. She writes,

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Speaker 3: whether or not you know her face, you've used the

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Speaker 3: technology it helped create practically every photo you've ever taken,

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Speaker 3: every website you've ever visited, every meme you've ever shared.

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Speaker 3: Owes some small debt to Lenna, and it really is

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Speaker 3: exactly as you were saying, Annie, one of those stories

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Speaker 3: that is found fundational to the Internet and technology that

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Speaker 3: you don't necessarily think of don't necessarily think of how

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Speaker 3: it came to be, And especially I think it's one

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Speaker 3: of those stories that says a lot about technology on

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Speaker 3: you know, here on Sminty, we've had plenty of conversations

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Speaker 3: about this. I've had many conversations about this on their

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Speaker 3: No Girls on the Internet, about how things like massogyny

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Speaker 3: are kind of can sort of be baked into the

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Speaker 3: foundation of technology. And I think that is one of

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Speaker 3: the reasons why tech is so often perpetuating misogyny, not

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Speaker 3: because it's some sort of an unfortunate bug, but because

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Speaker 3: this misogyny can be sort of foundational in some ways.

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Speaker 3: And I think this image really is a good example

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Speaker 3: of what I mean. And I think, especially as we're

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Speaker 3: having conversations about the rise of things like new toify

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Speaker 3: apps and AI generated adult content creators, we're seeing what

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Speaker 3: is kind of becoming a marketplace that is men making

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Speaker 3: money off of the bodies and or labor of women

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Speaker 3: without their consent, certainly without their compensation. And I think

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Speaker 3: this situation in the Lenna image, where the image of

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Speaker 3: a woman went on to create this entire field of

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Speaker 3: technology without her consent, can perhaps really tell us something

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Speaker 3: about where we're headed in twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, especially when you consider where it comes from,

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Speaker 1: which I know we'll talk about. But also, yeah, these

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Speaker 1: conversations we're having now about like actors perhaps not given

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Speaker 1: their consent to being used in certain ways. Just and honestly,

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Speaker 1: it ekes sense to all of us if you've posted

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Speaker 1: an image online, right, not consenting to using an image,

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Speaker 1: to an image getting used in a certain way. But

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Speaker 1: so much about this history is fascinating because it feels

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Speaker 1: so standardized, which is odd. Can you tell us about that?

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Speaker 2: Totally?

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Speaker 3: So for folks who don't know, the Lenna image is

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Speaker 3: literally an image of this woman, Lenna Lenna Forsin. She

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Speaker 3: is a woman from Sweden who in the seventies was

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Speaker 3: a model. So this kind of sensual image of her

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Speaker 3: wearing a tan hat with a purple feather flowing down

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Speaker 3: her bare back, staring kind of seductively over one shoulder.

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Speaker 3: That image of her was published in Playboy in nineteen

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Speaker 3: seventy two. She was essentially a playmate. That image would

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Speaker 3: go on to become what's called a standard test image.

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Speaker 2: So big caveat here. I am not an engineer.

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Speaker 3: If I say something that is you're like, if you're

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Speaker 3: an engineer listening, and you're like, that's not totally correct.

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Speaker 2: I am at an engineer.

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Speaker 3: But here is a definition of what a standard test

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Speaker 3: image is that I found from caggle dot com, which

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Speaker 3: is like a developer community site. They say a standard

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Speaker 3: test image is a digital image file used across different

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Speaker 3: institutions to test image processing and image compression algorithms. By

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Speaker 3: using the same standard test images, different labs were able

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Speaker 3: to compare results both visually and quantitatively. The images are

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Speaker 3: in many cases chosen to represent natural or typical images

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Speaker 3: that a class of processing techniques would need to deal with.

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Speaker 3: Other test images are chosen because they present a range

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Speaker 3: of challenges to image reconstrut dirduction algorithms, such as the

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Speaker 3: reproduction of fine detail and textures, sharp transitions and edges.

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Speaker 2: And uniform reasons.

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Speaker 3: So basically, to put that in Layman's terms, a standard

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Speaker 3: test image is like a test image that tests to

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Speaker 3: make sure that the technology is working as it should be,

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Speaker 3: or like rendering the way that it should be. Lenna's

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Speaker 3: image is not the only common standard test image. There's

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Speaker 3: also one that is like a bunch of different colored

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Speaker 3: jelly beans on a table. There's another one that's called

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Speaker 3: peppers that's just a bunch of different colored like red

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Speaker 3: and green peppers, like calapeno peppers. So this is just

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Speaker 3: a thing that becomes a way for technologists to test

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Speaker 3: that the image generating technology is working correctly.

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Speaker 1: I do think this is very interesting for a lot

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Speaker 1: of reasons. But if you have like jelly beans and peppers,

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Speaker 1: those are things to be consumed. Then when you're thinking

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Speaker 1: about where they got this image from a Lena, like,

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Speaker 1: how did this happen? How did this image become this

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Speaker 1: standard testing thing?

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Speaker 2: So this is actually a pretty interesting story.

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Speaker 3: The story of Helena's Playboy picture becomes this standard test

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Speaker 3: image that is everywhere and very ubiquitous, starts with computer

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Speaker 3: and electrical engineer Alexander Sawchuk. According to the newsletter for

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Speaker 3: the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineering, or the I

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Speaker 3: triple E, as I have found out it's sometimes called.

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Speaker 2: I was talking to somebody about this and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: the I E E ee, and they were like, it's

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Speaker 2: just the I triple E.

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Speaker 5: I want to I E E.

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Speaker 4: Actually the I E exactly.

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Speaker 2: So it's the summer of nineteen seventy three.

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Speaker 3: Alexander Sawchuk was an assistant professor of electrical engineering at

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Speaker 3: the University of Southern California and also a grad student

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Speaker 3: in the sip I lab as a manager. As the

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Speaker 3: story goes, he's like frantically searching around the lab for

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Speaker 3: a good image to scan for a colleague's conference paper.

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Speaker 3: He had just sort of gotten bored with their usual

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Speaker 3: stock test images because they most had come from like

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Speaker 3: nineteen sixties TV standards and then we're just a little

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Speaker 3: bit dull. He wanted something glossy and sort of like

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Speaker 3: fresh and dynamic, but he also wanted to use a

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Speaker 3: human face specifically.

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Speaker 2: Just then, as the story goes.

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Speaker 3: Somebody happens to walk in holding the most recent issue

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Speaker 3: of Playboy magazine.

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Speaker 2: Why this person was bringing Playboy magazine into his workplace,

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Speaker 2: I cannot tell you.

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Speaker 4: How good did you just come into your world institute?

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Speaker 2: Okay?

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Speaker 5: Cool?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Like, I mean, I do think that that sort

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Speaker 3: of like gives you a sense of like the dynamics

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Speaker 3: that we're dealing with. Right, that somebody just happens to

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Speaker 3: walk in with the with the most recent Playboy under

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Speaker 3: their arm, right, the engineers tore away the top third

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Speaker 3: of the centerfold so they could wrap it around the

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Speaker 3: drum of their mrhead wire photo scanner, which they had

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Speaker 3: outfitted with analog to digital converters, one for each red, green,

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Speaker 3: and blue channels, and an HP twenty one hundred mini computer.

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Speaker 3: So all of that to say is that they effectively

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Speaker 3: crop to this image so that you can't see the

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Speaker 3: models bears in the image, so it's just a picture

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Speaker 3: of her from the shoulders up looking over her shoulder.

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Speaker 3: It's still like quite a seductive photo, but the full

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Speaker 3: photo has her like bare booty in it. She's wearing

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Speaker 3: I look like a feather boa and like thigh high

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Speaker 3: stockings looking over her shoulder. So back in the seventies

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Speaker 3: and eighties, this image was really sort of like used

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Speaker 3: in very limited cases. You could only really see it

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Speaker 3: on dot org domains. It was pretty limited to like engineers.

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Speaker 3: Then in July of nineteen ninety one, the image was

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Speaker 3: featured on the cover of Optical Engineering, alongside that other

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Speaker 3: test image of the different colored peppers. Funny enough, I

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00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,200
Speaker 3: took a look at that cover. It's all black and white,

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Speaker 3: so I'm like, oh, I think they're trying to demonstrate

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Speaker 3: that like these images had all these different dynamic colors,

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Speaker 3: but both of them are rendered in black and white,

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Speaker 3: kind of rendering that meaningless. So this is when Playboy

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Speaker 3: gets wind of this, and they are not happy because

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Speaker 3: it's basically copyright infringement, which this is not related to

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00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:03,480
Speaker 3: the story, but I always have to add this whenever

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Speaker 3: it comes up how litigious Hugh Hefner and Playboy were.

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Speaker 3: I always think this is very rich because, as y'll

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Speaker 3: probably know, Hugh Hefner made an entire lucrative industry off

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Speaker 3: of images of Marilyn Monroe that she did for a

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Speaker 3: calendar company for which she was only paid fifty dollars.

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Speaker 3: Many years after that photo shoot, Hugh Hefner bought those

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Speaker 3: photographs from the calendar company republished them without Marilyn Monroe's

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Speaker 3: consent or permission in nineteen fifty three. That was the

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Speaker 3: first ever issue of Playboy. Hugh Hefner paid five hundred dollars.

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Speaker 3: She got fifty dollars. Right, So, whenever I read about

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Speaker 3: how litigious Playboy is, which they're very litigious, I always

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Speaker 3: had to chuckle at that that, Oh, like, you don't

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Speaker 3: want somebody profiting off of your intellectual property. But had

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Speaker 3: no problem profiting off of a woman's body without compensating

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Speaker 3: her fairly or even her consent.

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Speaker 2: Interesting, this is like par for the course for him.

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Speaker 2: Oh my Goodnes, don't even get me started with Shu Hefner.

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Speaker 2: We will be here all day.

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Speaker 4: The things that came out after he died, which I'm like, Wow,

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Speaker 4: he had a pretty good, like powerful handle on people

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Speaker 4: not talking until he died.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 3: I was listening to an episode of Celebrity memoir book

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Speaker 3: Club where they read a lot of X playmate and

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Speaker 3: ex Playboy bunny memoirs.

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Speaker 2: Some of the things that they write about, I'm like,

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Speaker 2: oh my god.

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Speaker 3: Like even even Lenna in an interview, she talks about

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Speaker 3: how in the seventies, after this photo shoot, she was

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Speaker 3: invited to go to the Playboy mansion, and the quote

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00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:39,520
Speaker 3: is something like, they made it clear in the invites

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Speaker 3: that I would have to spend time with Hugh Hefner

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Speaker 3: while he was in his dressing robe, and I said no, thanks.

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Speaker 5: I mean she already knew.

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00:16:50,520 --> 00:17:04,600
Speaker 6: Was like yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: So Playboy threatens to sue these engineers, and at this point,

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Speaker 3: the engineers, it sounds like, had like grown very fond

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Speaker 3: of using this image so they fought back. Eventually, Playboy

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00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,040
Speaker 3: back down because, as a Playboy vice president put it, quote,

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Speaker 3: we decided we should exploit this because it is a phenomenon.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, by his own words like, oh, let's exploit this.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: No, talk about the fact that this is.

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Speaker 3: Two groups of men fighting over who owns this image

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Speaker 3: of a woman, in one case being used in a

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Speaker 3: manner that is completely without her consent or control. It

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Speaker 3: just it already from the beginning, it just feels to

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Speaker 3: me like men fighting over how they can use a

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Speaker 3: woman's representation that I think is so foundational to some

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Speaker 3: of the conversations we're having about technology like AI right

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Speaker 3: here in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: Four, absolutely, and she did become pretty foundational, right.

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Speaker 3: Oh, absolutely, So this is when the image of Lena

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Speaker 3: really becomes super popular. The whole drama about the cover

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Speaker 3: catapults this image into what you might think of as

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Speaker 3: like early internet virality or popularity.

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Speaker 2: This was in nineteen ninety five.

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Speaker 3: The use of the photo and electronic imaging has been

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Speaker 3: described as clearly one of the most important events in history.

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00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,640
Speaker 3: It is truly hard to overstate how ubiquitous this one

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00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,480
Speaker 3: image is in technology. There is this fascinating interactive piece

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00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:27,280
Speaker 3: by Jennifer Ding at the Pudding.

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00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:28,480
Speaker 2: The piece is so cool.

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Speaker 3: It's like one of those interactive pieces that has a timeline.

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Speaker 2: Definitely check it out. But in that piece, Ding.

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00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:38,679
Speaker 3: Actually includes a freeze frame of the show Silicon Valley

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Speaker 3: on HBO where in the background there is a poster

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00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,040
Speaker 3: with the Lenna image on the wall right. So this

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Speaker 3: image is also included in scientific journals just all over

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Speaker 3: the place.

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Speaker 2: Ding found that within the dot edu.

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Speaker 3: World, so like websites related to education, the Lenna image

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00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,159
Speaker 3: continues to appear in homework questions, class slides, and to

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00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,560
Speaker 3: be hosted on educational and research sites, ensuring that it

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00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,320
Speaker 3: will be passed down to new generations of engineer. So

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00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:09,240
Speaker 3: this became so popular that Lenna herself is often called

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Speaker 3: the first Lady of the Internet.

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Speaker 1: Wow, yeah, I kuld of like her taking that picture

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00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:18,440
Speaker 1: having no idea that this is what would happen, Which, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I guess that speaks to the next.

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Speaker 5: Question, why did this image take off the way that

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Speaker 5: it did?

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00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:25,320
Speaker 2: Well? If you asked David C.

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Speaker 3: Munson, who is the editor in chief of the I

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00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:34,040
Speaker 3: E or the Tripoli Transactions on Image processing, he said

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00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,400
Speaker 3: that the image happened to meet all of these requirements

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00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,120
Speaker 3: for a good test image because of its detail, it's

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00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:44,080
Speaker 3: flat regions, shading, and texture. But even he will not

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00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,439
Speaker 3: leave out the obvious fact that it's also a picture

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00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,879
Speaker 3: of like a seductive, sexy young woman. Duh, right, Like

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00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,000
Speaker 3: that's that's definitely part of it. He says, the Lena

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00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,560
Speaker 3: image picture is of an attractive woman. It is not

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Speaker 3: surprising to me that the mostly male image processing research

396
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,240
Speaker 3: community gravitated toward an image that they found attractive. And

397
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:07,639
Speaker 3: so I do think there's something about these highly male

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00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,600
Speaker 3: dominated spaces where it's not just that there's a lot

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00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:15,720
Speaker 3: of men, it's like their worldviews, their interests, their perspectives,

400
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,720
Speaker 3: their biases that are really taking up a lot.

401
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Speaker 2: Of space in these in these spaces.

402
00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:24,320
Speaker 3: I just think that men feel like these spaces are theirs,

403
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,600
Speaker 3: and that they are free to decorate those spaces with

404
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,800
Speaker 3: the pretty women that they think they feel like they

405
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,040
Speaker 3: should be able to use without their consent or compensation.

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00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,080
Speaker 3: I just think that, like Annie, you mentioned earlier, that

407
00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:39,000
Speaker 3: the other test images are these things that you consume, right,

408
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:40,919
Speaker 3: like peppers or jelly beans.

409
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:42,439
Speaker 2: There's another famous one of.

410
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,560
Speaker 3: A baboon that's like has different colors on its face.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting to me that it's these.

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00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,880
Speaker 3: Things that are not human, things that are like animal

413
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,240
Speaker 3: or or that you consume that like throwing a sexy

414
00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,640
Speaker 3: young woman into that mix. I don't think maybe seem

415
00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:58,240
Speaker 3: like a huge departure for these guys.

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00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and again, when you think about things in the

417
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,200
Speaker 1: realm of AI or even I know I've complained about

418
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,760
Speaker 1: this many times, but in the worlds of fandom are gaming,

419
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:11,800
Speaker 1: it's like that, it's like, you can come into our

420
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:13,480
Speaker 1: world on our terms and you wear what we want

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Speaker 1: you to wear. You are here because we let you

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Speaker 1: be here in this male dominated space, but you're gonna

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00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,520
Speaker 1: do what we want. It's not up to you. And

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00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,359
Speaker 1: that's the only way that you can you can be

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Speaker 1: in this world. But that being said, there has been

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00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,280
Speaker 1: some pushback recently, ish right, Bridget.

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00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:37,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, So one thing about what you just said.

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Speaker 3: When I was researching for this episode, some of the

429
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:46,200
Speaker 3: different engineers who had contributed to this image's popularity, they

430
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,720
Speaker 3: were quoted when they actually met the actual real Letta

431
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,119
Speaker 3: at a conference that she was invited to. They were like,

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Speaker 3: I can't believe she's a real person. A part of

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00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:56,119
Speaker 3: me was like, you didn't even see her as a

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00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,560
Speaker 3: real human. They just saw her as something that they

435
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,399
Speaker 3: had got an image in a picture that they had

436
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 3: been consuming for decades, and they had so removed her

437
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,399
Speaker 3: from being a real, breathing human that meeting her in

438
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,520
Speaker 3: real life was like they were surprised that she was real.

439
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:13,399
Speaker 3: And I think that really speaks to the sort of

440
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,520
Speaker 3: fandom element that you were talking about, this idea that

441
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:20,399
Speaker 3: like you can come if you are a fantasy and

442
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:22,880
Speaker 3: in some ways not even a real human.

443
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying.

444
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 1: You're like, do I ever, Yeah, Like, don't say anything

445
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,880
Speaker 1: that I don't like, like, keep quiet and look.

446
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 5: The way I like, then you can be here. But

447
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 5: oh you're a real person.

448
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:38,880
Speaker 2: Oh no, I don't.

449
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,360
Speaker 5: Want you hear it at all.

450
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, So you're exactly right, Annie. All of this happened,

451
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 3: but it was not without pushback. Around like the twenty tens,

452
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:53,159
Speaker 3: people started publicly asking whether or not this image of

453
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 3: a woman from Playboy should be so foundational to technology,

454
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 3: especially in education seating, you know, given conversations about the

455
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,199
Speaker 3: need for more women in these spaces and how to

456
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 3: make these spaces more inclusive and more diverse.

457
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:07,880
Speaker 2: That's really around when you start.

458
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,399
Speaker 3: Hearing like people in public being like, wait a minute,

459
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 3: maybe this isn't so cool. In twenty fifteen, Mattie Zugg,

460
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:15,880
Speaker 3: who was then a student at the Thomas Jefferson High

461
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,480
Speaker 3: School for Science and Technology right here in DC riilive

462
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:20,919
Speaker 3: who I should say now is a product safety engineer

463
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,959
Speaker 3: at Apple who focuses on preventing tech and abled abuse

464
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 3: and stalking and harassment on Apple platforms.

465
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:27,199
Speaker 2: So like go Maddie.

466
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 3: Maddie sounds like she was cool in high school and

467
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 3: is cool now. So Maddie wrote this op ed basically

468
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,119
Speaker 3: asking the question of like, should I, as.

469
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 2: A high school student at at a STEM.

470
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,640
Speaker 3: High school, be given an image from Playboy as part

471
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,439
Speaker 3: of my education in technology and STEM? She writes, I

472
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,720
Speaker 3: first saw a picture of Playboy magazines Miss November nineteen

473
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,440
Speaker 3: seventy two. A year ago as a junior at TJ

474
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 3: my artificial intelligence teacher told our class to search Google

475
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 3: for Lenna Soderbird, not the full image though, and use

476
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,200
Speaker 3: her pick to test our latest coding assignment. At the time,

477
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 3: I was sixteen and struggling to believe that I belonged

478
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 3: in a male dominated computer science class. I tried to

479
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:13,200
Speaker 3: tune out the boy's sexual comments. Why is an advanced science, technology, engineering,

480
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 3: and mathematics school using a Playboy centerfold in its classrooms?

481
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 3: Her piece ends was saying it's time for TJ to

482
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 3: say hello to inclusive computer science education and say goodbye

483
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,160
Speaker 3: to Lena. So Maddie was not the only person who

484
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,679
Speaker 3: was like, maybe this image shouldn't be the thing that

485
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,439
Speaker 3: all of our education is centered around. In that piece

486
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 3: for Wired, I mentioned they talked to several women in technology.

487
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 3: You had very similar stories. This one is actually pretty funny.

488
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 3: Deanna and Needle, a math professor at UCLA, had similar

489
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 3: memories from college. So in twenty thirteen, she and a

490
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 3: colleague staged a quiet protest. They acquired the rights to

491
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,920
Speaker 3: a headshot of the male model Fabio Lonzoni and used

492
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 3: that for their imaging research. So they kind of like

493
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 3: turned it around, like, oh, you're gonna use a sexy woman,

494
00:24:57,880 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 3: Well we'll use a sexy man.

495
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 2: What do you think about that?

496
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:02,640
Speaker 5: I love it.

497
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 3: So in that piece they actually track down and speak

498
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,679
Speaker 3: to the real Lenna, who also called for her image

499
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 3: to be retired. She says, I retired from modeling a

500
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 3: long time ago. It is time I retired from tech two.

501
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 3: We can make a simple change today that creates a

502
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 3: lasting change for tomorrow. Let's commit to losing me. And

503
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 3: there's actually some news on that front, because as of

504
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,719
Speaker 3: April first of this year, that I Triple E officially

505
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,479
Speaker 3: retired the use of the Lenna image and announced they

506
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 3: will no longer be using that image and their publications.

507
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 3: Ours Technica points out that this is kind of a

508
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 3: really big deal that will likely have a ripple effect

509
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 3: in the space. Because the journal has been so historically

510
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 3: important for computer imaging development, it'll likely set a precedent

511
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 3: removing this image from common use. In an email, a

512
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,160
Speaker 3: spokesperson for the I Triple E recommended wider sensitivity about

513
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 3: the issue, writing, in order to raise awareness of and

514
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,200
Speaker 3: increase author compliance with this new policy, program, committee members

515
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 3: and reviewers should look for inclusion of this image, and

516
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 3: if present, should ask authors to replace the Lenna image

517
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:07,959
Speaker 3: with an alternative.

518
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that from Lenna herself, Like, let's commit

519
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: to forgetting me. That's such a great line, but it

520
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,640
Speaker 1: does speak to it speaks volumes, as you've been saying,

521
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,919
Speaker 1: bridget to our attitude towards women on the internet and

522
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 1: towards consent on the internet. And so when we're thinking

523
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: about this, which was foundational, what do you think about

524
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 1: this the legacy of this image.

525
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that question. You know what I was

526
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 3: reading about how this image came to be? I'm imagining

527
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 3: a very different time, right, It's the seventies. People aren't

528
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,479
Speaker 3: necessarily having a lot of public loud conversations about the

529
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 3: power dynamics of who's in the room and who's not

530
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 3: in the room where a lot of this technology is

531
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 3: getting built. And it really made me think of like, wow,

532
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 3: the seventies, that probably was such a different time. But

533
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 3: here in twenty twenty four, we are having those conversations,

534
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:11,159
Speaker 3: loud voices, are publicly having those conversations. There are women

535
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 3: and people of color, and trans folks and queer folks

536
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 3: and all kinds of folks who are building and making

537
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,439
Speaker 3: the technology that shapes our world today. And so in

538
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 3: twenty twenty four, it almost feels like we are pretending

539
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 3: that we're still in this nineteen seventies we didn't really

540
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 3: know how who could have foreseen world? When in fact

541
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 3: we're not really in that world. People are asking the

542
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 3: questions people are raising the alarm, and I guess I

543
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 3: don't think it should be several decades after AI technology

544
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 3: becomes ubiquitous for people to start asking the question about

545
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 3: how traditionally marginalized people like women are being used and

546
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 3: represented and perhaps exploited without their consent in these spaces.

547
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 3: I think it provides a really interesting precedent for what's

548
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 3: going on here in twenty twenty four.

549
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 2: And Jennifer Ding put it really well.

550
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 3: She writes to me, the crux of the Lena story

551
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 3: is how little power we have over our data and

552
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 3: how it is used and abused. That threat seems disproportionately

553
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,199
Speaker 3: higher for women, who are overrepresented in Internet content but

554
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 3: underrepresented in Internet company leadership and decision making. Given this reality,

555
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 3: engineering and product decisions will continue to consciously and unconsciously

556
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 3: exclude our needs and concerns, right, And so I really

557
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 3: agree with that that this Leta story really is a

558
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 3: story about power dynamics and who is represented in technology

559
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 3: and who is just sort of like has their needs

560
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 3: exploited or erased.

561
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 2: Right Like.

562
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 3: Men wanting to consume the bodies of women is like

563
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 3: foundational to the Internet. It's like why we have the

564
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 3: Internet the way that we have it, and I think

565
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 3: we know that now it's like an objective fact about

566
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 3: the Internet and technology. I don't think we can still

567
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 3: make technology that does not honest about that, because if

568
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 3: we're not being honest about that, we can never fix that,

569
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 3: we can never question that, we can never have that

570
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 3: be a dynamic that we stop perpetuating with technology.

571
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think it's like going back to the

572
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 1: point about being in a classroom setting and being shown

573
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 1: explicitly like this is how women are viewed in space.

574
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: This is what built a lot of what we use today,

575
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: and we're still talking about it is telling in itself,

576
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: and especially when we're seeing that perpetuate in all of

577
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: these tech spaces where it still feels in a lot

578
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: of ways even though women in marginalized people have built

579
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: those spaces that like you're the guest here and you're

580
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: only here because we're opening our gates a little bit

581
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: to let you in, but otherwise, yes, get out.

582
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 3: And I just think that's a dynamic we need to

583
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 3: be questioning in twenty twenty four. And I think so

584
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 3: like something about the use of this image it's ubiquity

585
00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 3: in education spaces I find so telling. But also, even

586
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,719
Speaker 3: if you're not studying to be an engineer or something,

587
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 3: I think there is a dynamic that says that if

588
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 3: you are a person who is traditionally marginalized, you're not

589
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 3: a decision maker, you're not a power holder, you're not

590
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 3: doing or making anything that anybody needs to care about.

591
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 3: And the entire dynamic is that we use you. In fact,

592
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 3: so Ding actually points this out on her piece. She says,

593
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 3: while social norms are changing toward non consensual data collection

594
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 3: and data exploitation, digital norms seem to be moving in

595
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 3: the opposite direction. Advancement and machine learning algorithms and data

596
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 3: storage capabilities are only making data misuse easier, whether the

597
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,959
Speaker 3: outcome is revenge porn, or targeted ADS, surveillance, or discriminatory AI.

598
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 3: If we want a world where our data can retire

599
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 3: when it's outlived its time, or when it's directly harming

600
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 3: our lives, we must create the tools and policies that

601
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 3: empower data subjects to have a say in what happens

602
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 3: to their data, including allowing their data to die. And

603
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 3: so I think, even if you're not somebody who is

604
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 3: a techie, that does concern you this dynamic that just says,

605
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 3: we consume, we exploit, we make money from you, and

606
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 3: you don't get to have a say about it. That's

607
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 3: the dynamics that I think this Lena image really did

608
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 3: usher in without really even necessarily meaning to.

609
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 4: I think there's a big conversation here on like the

610
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,959
Speaker 4: power of capitalism within the tech industry and what makes money.

611
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 4: I can't help but think, like with the Lina image,

612
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 4: the fact that this toxicity was used to make more

613
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 4: profit and more power within this industry. It took forty

614
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 4: to fifty years for it to even have a conversation about,

615
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 4: like let's change it, let's retire it. But the fact

616
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 4: that it had that much pushback because they didn't care

617
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 4: enough and they wanted to build on this toxicity because

618
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 4: they knew it could make money is the most concerning

619
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 4: thing to me. And then the powers that be are

620
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 4: saying that, yeah, yeah, we're definitely going to control this

621
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 4: and then just goes after an app instead of the

622
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 4: root of the problem. It seems like the biggest part

623
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 4: of the conversation because even in the AI world, with

624
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 4: new apps coming through, new programs coming through, and they're

625
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 4: all competing with each other, they don't want to let

626
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 4: go of the toxicity. But that's what's making the money,

627
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 4: which is really really concerning.

628
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean, like if there was one, so

629
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 3: what of why I wanted to have this conversation Sam.

630
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 3: That is exactly it that it is about money. It

631
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 3: is about capitalism. It is about making money off of

632
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 3: people's own exploitation and selling that exploitation back to them to.

633
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 2: Make more money.

634
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 3: And it's just a really toxic dynamic that I believe

635
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 3: is harming us and making the people who have created

636
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 3: that dynamic rich all the while they get to be like, Oh,

637
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 3: it's not a big deal for you.

638
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 2: Actually, this is going to be really good for you.

639
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 2: This is going to be convenient for you.

640
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 3: And I don't know, Like I woke up this morning

641
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 3: when I was trying to decide like what I wanted

642
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 3: to talk to you all today about, and one of

643
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 3: the ideas that I had that I scrapped was just

644
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 3: this feeling that being on the internet just doesn't feel

645
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 3: fun anymore. Anytime I go on a website, anytime I

646
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 3: google something just to find out information, it feels like

647
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 3: a scam.

648
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 2: It feels like exploitation.

649
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 3: I feel like I am one click away from somebody

650
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 3: getting my social Security number. It feels like AI generated garbage,

651
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 3: and I just think we have hit the wall of

652
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 3: that feeling.

653
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 2: I can't imagine that I'm alone in this.

654
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 3: I think the feeling of being showing up online today

655
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty four feels exhausting, and I think part

656
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 3: of it is because it feels like we are being

657
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 3: bled dry by people that we have already made rich

658
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:42,719
Speaker 3: from our own exploitation.

659
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 2: Do you want to feel that way? Oh?

660
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 4: Absolutely, I think with because getting on TikTok, the first

661
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 4: opening video I'm sure you've seen it is that content

662
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 4: manager who's like, I'm here for the safety of TikTok.

663
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 4: Have you seen this?

664
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 2: I have not.

665
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 4: She's been there. She is for safety in something like

666
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 4: she has a very specific safety yes, Susie someone she

667
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 4: is very white and she's very redheaded. It's I was like, okay,

668
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 4: so we've got played into the xenophobe. She's like, look,

669
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 4: I'm a white person. I'm gonna help you out here.

670
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:10,839
Speaker 2: Don't worry. Don't worry.

671
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 6: I got this.

672
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 4: But that's the first thing that I'm seeing, So, like,

673
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 4: you know, urging TikTok users to talk to the government

674
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 4: because they voted this in and this is real bad

675
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 4: and all this and not whatnot. And I'm just like,

676
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 4: all right, it's gonna go away next. This is now

677
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 4: my attitude because also I'm very tired. But also I

678
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,959
Speaker 4: just got an email saying that AT and d YES

679
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 4: has a record that oh that that reached. They have

680
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 4: your stuff. But good news. Since you don't have a

681
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 4: bill with us, we don't, we didn't. You didn't even

682
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 4: get any perfecent information. But I literally think every month

683
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 4: I have been given seeing an email that says something

684
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 4: of my information is has been breached, and it's nothing

685
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 4: that I have done. It is literally everything from my insurance,

686
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 4: my dental insurance, my healthcare provider, my internet, which I'm like,

687
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 4: what the hell, my phone subscription, my cell phone, which

688
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 4: I'm like, I'm starting to get back to that. I

689
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,720
Speaker 4: think I want a landline. I'm gonna at this moment, y'all,

690
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 4: to each of those things popping up on things. I'm like,

691
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 4: I hadn't I have to use that information in order

692
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 4: for me to have healthcare. So y'all, let my healthcare

693
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 4: information go out and they have my Social Security number.

694
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:19,879
Speaker 4: There's nothing I can do about that as many times

695
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 4: as I can change my password. The next email I'm

696
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 4: getting is telling me that I've got a data breach

697
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 4: of my information. So what is the point. Like, at

698
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 4: this point, the only way is to rewrite my identity

699
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 4: and to never get online again, which would be really

700
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 4: hard for my job.

701
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 3: Yes, Like if you have a phone in your life,

702
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 3: if you vote, if you drive, these things that we

703
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 3: are required to do to participate in public life should

704
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 3: not just be avenues for somebody to make money and

705
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:54,359
Speaker 3: scam us.

706
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 2: But yet it feels that way.

707
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 3: And you know what, Sam, I have actually not seen

708
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 3: the TikTok that you're to because I have not opened

709
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,720
Speaker 3: my TikTok app in days. Because it's starting to feel

710
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 3: like QVC and I cannot take it anymore. Like whatever

711
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 3: happened to spaces on the Internet that we're supposed to

712
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 3: feel like safety or exploration or fun or community or connection.

713
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 3: I'm I hope that somebody out there listening is like,

714
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 3: bridget you're old and on hip.

715
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 2: We have those spaces, they are syz tell me about them.

716
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 2: I want to know about them.

717
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 3: But I think that we should we really got to

718
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 3: get back to like to those principles of the Internet,

719
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 3: feeling like something other than being taken for a ride

720
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 3: on which you are the chump, right.

721
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 4: And I will say a lot of people have felt

722
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 4: like Discord and read it has been like brought in,

723
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 4: but we already know Reddit has god of its problems.

724
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 4: And then I think there's a new lawsuit with Discord

725
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 4: with his problems and in terms of service changing as well.

726
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 4: I'm like, what, totally it's happened. So there's literally no

727
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:57,720
Speaker 4: one is protecting the individual to like, there's no protection

728
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 4: for us at all, but they want us to say,

729
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,439
Speaker 4: they want us to take away things from us, which

730
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 4: is like the least of our worries, or they're just

731
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 4: like sorry, You're like, you can't sue us.

732
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think everybody is feeling that, but I think

733
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 3: it is particularly dangerous for people who are traditionally marginalized

734
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 3: because yeah, which it's just the expectation that, oh, it's

735
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 3: totally fine. If people who make apps that non consensually

736
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,320
Speaker 3: undress women using AI, why wouldn't they be able to

737
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 3: advertise on Facebook or Instagram or Twitter.

738
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 2: They got to make money, that's a business.

739
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,720
Speaker 3: Like how easy it is to erase the human people

740
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 3: at the heart of this dynamic. Erase their concerns, erase

741
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 3: their needs, erase their harm because men got to make

742
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 3: money off of it.

743
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 4: I'm thick of it, right, Or is tradition literally like, yeah,

744
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:50,839
Speaker 4: this image has always been here, we need to teach

745
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:55,280
Speaker 4: it as a historical now. It was definitely not exploiting

746
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 4: somebody or taking advantage of somebody or using humiliating content,

747
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 4: because she wasn't humulated, I don't think. But like in

748
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 4: the ideal of like it being forever and ever and ever,

749
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 4: of like your seductive picture being used for it people,

750
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 4: which is a whole different conversation in itself.

751
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, so Lenna, the real life Lenna.

752
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,839
Speaker 3: And again there's a really interesting Wired article that has

753
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 3: an interview with her.

754
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 2: She doesn't feel like she was exploited.

755
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 3: She's actually really proud of that image, even as she

756
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 3: recognizes that it's like time for it to be retired. However,

757
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 3: she does wish that she had been fairly compensated for

758
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 3: what would go on to be her like non consensual

759
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 3: contributions to tech when she took that image. There's no

760
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 3: way that as a you know, young playboy playmate in

761
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,720
Speaker 3: the night in nineteen seventy one or whatever, you would

762
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:42,359
Speaker 3: have a sense of like, well, if this goes on

763
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 3: to be to make me the first lady of the Internet,

764
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 3: I better have compensation and protections, no way, right. So

765
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 3: in that wired piece they say it makes sense that

766
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,359
Speaker 3: she would feel this way. Unlike so many women in tech,

767
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 3: Lenna has at least been acknowledged, even fedan for her contribution.

768
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 3: She did that work, and the people started using that

769
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 3: photo in this neat new way, and now she has

770
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 3: this kind of immortality woven into the design of the machine.

771
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 3: This is from Marie Hicks, a historian of technology and

772
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 3: the author of programmed Inequality.

773
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:12,959
Speaker 2: All of this happened for a reason.

774
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 3: Hicks writes, if they hadn't used a Playboy centerfold, they

775
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 3: almost certainly would have used another picture of a pretty

776
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 3: white woman. The playboy thing gets our attention, but really

777
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 3: what it's about is this world building that's gone on

778
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 3: in computing from the beginning. It's about building worlds for

779
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 3: certain people and not for others.

780
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 4: I find it interesting too that they invited her to

781
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 4: the conference, Like I'm wondering what the purpose was other

782
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 4: than two like for because it obviously wasn't to ask

783
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 4: her questions about tech and how she did this thing

784
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 4: because they did not even consider human as we know.

785
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 4: It was just literally to oggle her in real life.

786
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was thinking about why they did that.

787
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 3: I don't know, I have parted me wonders if it

788
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 3: was like an attempt to be like, oh, we need

789
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 3: to acknowledge the way that this woman's image was so

790
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 3: foundational to our technology, but then like not really doing it,

791
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:08,280
Speaker 3: like still sort of treating her as like a booth

792
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 3: babe or something like.

793
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 4: I don't know, right, I just find all of that

794
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 4: interesting in this level of like not again of not

795
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 4: what she was doing this for. She came in with

796
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 4: like whatever her ambitions were in being this model and whatnot,

797
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 4: and then all of a sudden being told you're being

798
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 4: used as an example for computers, like for specially images

799
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 4: for computers, and not only will you see this, but

800
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 4: your grandkids will also like if she has children, like

801
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:39,879
Speaker 4: any of those things, and your your family members.

802
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 3: Forever and like who would who would have ever thought

803
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 3: that that's how that image would go on to be

804
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 3: used in history? And I really think like this is

805
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 3: where we are today, and this is like why I

806
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 3: wanted to talk about this is that I think, like

807
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 3: the idea, the concept of images being shared online, the

808
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 3: way we understand that in twenty twenty four, the fact

809
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 3: that this image of Letta became so foundational to that

810
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,800
Speaker 3: concept without her consent, you know, perhaps without like proper

811
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 3: contribution to the way that she actually was foundational to that,

812
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 3: and building out this entire universe around it that is

813
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:17,800
Speaker 3: mostly like controlled and protected and profited off by men,

814
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 3: and nobody stopping to ask about the ramifications of that

815
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 3: until decades later. I just think it really establishes like

816
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 3: a concerning precedent for where we're going right now with

817
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 3: AI in twenty twenty four, And it doesn't have to

818
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:32,479
Speaker 3: We can learn from what we did with that Letta

819
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 3: image if we ask the right questions, if we cent

820
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:37,919
Speaker 3: her the right perspectives and the right voices, and so Yeah,

821
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 3: I don't want to wait until twenty forty to be like, oh,

822
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:43,720
Speaker 3: should we have been talking about the ways that women

823
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 3: and girls and other marginalized people are being exploited and

824
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,280
Speaker 3: used to make technology companies money.

825
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 2: I don't want to ask that question when it's too late.

826
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 4: Right, And here's like the big conversation is shouldn't we

827
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 4: also recognize that big companies, big tech companies and big

828
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 4: companies that are developing are purposely leaving out marginalized people

829
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 4: because they like the old ways and in that it's

830
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,280
Speaker 4: only making a certain amount of people money.

831
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 3: Yes, that's exactly I think that I would argue that's

832
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 3: exactly what's going on.

833
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 2: I mean, in twenty twenty four, there are so many.

834
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,399
Speaker 3: Loud, thoughtful voices from women and people of color who

835
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 3: are really talking about AI in some interesting and thoughtful ways.

836
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 3: So they exist, They are out there. This is the

837
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 3: tale as the oldest time when it comes to technology.

838
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 3: It is not that they are not there. It is

839
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 3: that they are being, whether intentionally or unintentionally, marginalized, sideline silenced,

840
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 3: pushed aside to make room for voices who are just

841
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 3: repeating the status quo, who are just saying like, well,

842
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 3: I'm trying to get rich, so who cares how this harms?

843
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:51,319
Speaker 3: Somebody who cares about whether or not this goes on

844
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 3: to exploit.

845
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 2: And I think that's really it's really.

846
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,320
Speaker 3: Like a it's a little bit of a complicated cultural

847
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 3: dynamic and cultural shift that I think that we really

848
00:42:59,080 --> 00:42:59,760
Speaker 3: got a break.

849
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, And it's really sad, going back to your point,

850
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 1: Bridget of like the internet not being a place of

851
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:10,280
Speaker 1: joy anymore, because so many times it was marginalized people

852
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 1: who made those spaces because they couldn't.

853
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 5: Find them anywhere else.

854
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 1: And then these companies come in and are like, Okay,

855
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:24,320
Speaker 1: well we can make money, and then it doesn't become

856
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 1: a joyous space anymore. It becomes a very toxic, a

857
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:34,280
Speaker 1: toxic place. And so like hearing this story and seeing

858
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 1: how so much of what we use still is based

859
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:39,799
Speaker 1: on something that was.

860
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 5: A guy walked in with the Playboy.

861
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:49,760
Speaker 1: Magazine like, it's it's bad when you that doesn't feel

862
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 1: so out of place and what we're talking about in

863
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: our current time.

864
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, and again, I mean, I opened up our conversation

865
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:58,280
Speaker 3: with this, but I guess, and I guess I'll close

866
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 3: with that too. I believe people when I say this,

867
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 3: people think I sound alarmist or extreme, but I mean

868
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 3: it the way that I mean it. I think that

869
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 3: these things are features, not bugs. I think we've got

870
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 3: to be honest about the ways that things like misogyny

871
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:15,919
Speaker 3: and exploitation, particularly when it comes to marginalized people, has

872
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 3: been foundational to technology and the Internet.

873
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 2: From the very beginning. I love the Internet. I love technology.

874
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:23,919
Speaker 2: It is why I do the work that I do.

875
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 3: But I think that until we are honest about that,

876
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 3: but these things are features and not bugs, we will

877
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 3: never get anywhere. And so I think that it really

878
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 3: starts with having honest conversations about where we started so

879
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 3: that we can get to a place that we that

880
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 3: actually feels a little bit better for everybody.

881
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, well, thank you so much. As always, Britte,

882
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 1: every time you come on, I'm like, we could talk

883
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,919
Speaker 1: for hours about this and this and this.

884
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 3: Invite me back for an episode just dragging Hugh Hefner.

885
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll be here for it.

886
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 4: I think we need to do this because I think

887
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 4: this for a minute about back into the magazine world

888
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 4: and jumping into like all of that.

889
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 3: Don't even get I mean like this is like spoiler alert.

890
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:09,799
Speaker 3: I like totally had this wrong. For so long in

891
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 3: my life, I was like, oh, Hugh Hefner was a

892
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 3: champion for free speech.

893
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 2: And the riots and blah blah blah.

894
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 3: Then I grew up and learned and I was like, actually,

895
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 3: she wasn't such a good guy.

896
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:22,839
Speaker 4: Right, I Mean, we really fed into the but read

897
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 4: the articles so so good.

898
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 2: Oh my god, the corbell.

899
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, oh yes, please come back for that Bridget.

900
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: In the meantime, where can the good listeners find you?

901
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 3: Well, you can listen to my podcast. There are no

902
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 3: girls on the internet. You can follow me. I'm not

903
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 3: really on social media that much anymore, but you can

904
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:45,240
Speaker 3: try to find me there. I'm on Instagram at Bridget

905
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 3: Marie in DC. I am at Blue Sky at Bridget

906
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 3: Todd on Threads at Bridget Marie and DC sometimes on TikTok.

907
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 3: You'll I'm easy to find. You'll find Google me. You'll

908
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,319
Speaker 3: find me, Yes, google me.

909
00:45:58,840 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 4: That's a flex.

910
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,919
Speaker 5: It's true though. Our listeners are smart. They can find

911
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 5: you and listeners.

912
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 1: If you would like to contact us, you can our

913
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 1: email us a step media mom stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.

914
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at most of the podcasts,

915
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:13,839
Speaker 1: or on TikTok and Instagram that stuff I'll.

916
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 5: Never told you.

917
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: We're also on YouTube. We have a tea public store

918
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 1: and a book you can get wherever you get your books.

919
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:20,919
Speaker 1: Thanks as always to our super duced Christina, our executiveroducer

920
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 1: My and your contributor Joey.

921
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 4: Thank you, and.

922
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 1: Thanks to you for listening. Stuff will never told you

923
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:27,279
Speaker 1: this poiction by Heart Radio. For more podcasts my heart Radio,

924
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 1: you can check out the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts

925
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite show,