1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: learn this stuff. They don't want you to know. Hello, 4 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: and welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, 5 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: my name isn't They call me Ben? And you are 6 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: you that makes this stuff? They don't want you to know. 7 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:35,639 Speaker 1: The gang's all here. The gang is all here. Uh. 8 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: And we're talking about something that a lot of people 9 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: have some very passionate opinions on. Yes, and this is 10 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: that old disclaimer that we make in front of every 11 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: podcast that has to do with anything religious or belief 12 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: system that is held tightly, and that is that we 13 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: are not telling you what to believe. Beliefs are your own. Yes, 14 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: there will be no poo pooing of faith right. Yes, 15 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: every single person has a right to their own personal 16 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: spiritual beliefs. Two posit otherwise would be at the very 17 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: least not well thought out correct. And it's kind of 18 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:20,040 Speaker 1: the and and an athemat to what we do overall. 19 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: We're not here to tell you what's what. We're here 20 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:26,919 Speaker 1: to look at some sides of issues and presented all 21 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 1: as fairly and balanced. Lee, is that a word is 22 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,839 Speaker 1: American English. Everything is the word. I couldn't agree more so. 23 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: So we're gonna do is examine the history of one 24 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: particular religion and look at some you know, sides to 25 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: it that maybe aren't explored very often in your daily ongoings. Yeah, 26 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: it's very important. We're looking at this from an historical 27 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: academic perspective. We want to give a shout out to 28 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: a friend of the show, longtime listener, Henry h who 29 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: gave us this idea. You might remember him from our 30 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: previous episode on the FBI and counter culture and our 31 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: whole disclaimer thing. Basically, I feel like we're what we're 32 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: always implying is science hoologists in the audience. Oh man, 33 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: we left how a disclaimer on that last episode, though 34 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: it should have said don't do drugs. I know, speaking speaking, yes, 35 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: everyone listening, we discourage you from doing drugs. Uh, outrightly, 36 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: we cannot legally tell you that drugs are cool. Most importantly, though, 37 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: we were joking and we said we were on drugs 38 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:35,079 Speaker 1: doing that. Oh yeah, that is very true. That was 39 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: a joke based on and I know you guys probably 40 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 1: know this, but we just had to say it again. 41 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: We were sleep deprived me less so than these fellas. 42 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 1: But we were playing off of that sleep deprived vibe 43 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: and writing that like a crazy snake to Valhalla. And yeah, 44 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: I hope everyone was aware of that. If not, and 45 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: you thought we were dosing up in the studio, I'm 46 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: here to tell you otherwise. And we we pre shade 47 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: all the emails we got. We had several people right 48 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: in and say, hey, just be sleep deprived all the time. 49 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: But NOL did a great job editing because the raw 50 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: form had some that was brutal. Yeah, yeah, slippery. So 51 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: here we are religion. The big are the earliest evidence 52 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 1: of religious ideas dates back hundreds of thousands of years, 53 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: all the way back to what is commonly called the 54 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: Middle and Lower Paleolithic periods. And just for some perspective here, 55 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: the average creature qualifying as human during this time would 56 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: probably disturb you if you just saw them walking on 57 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: the street today at least, wouldn't recognize them as human. Well, 58 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: even if they were wearing, you know, the clothes that 59 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: you yourself were wearing, you would you would notice some obvious, 60 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: obvious differences. And we don't want to get to too 61 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: caught up in this, but we did an episode on 62 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: what are called the like lost races of humanity, such 63 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: as Dennis Ouvans looking at differences between Homo rectus and 64 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: Homo sapiens, neanderthal and Homo Flunzis those the little uh 65 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: huh Yeah, the s have been found on on just 66 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: a very small patch of the world, and the current 67 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: the current debate is whether it was a true speciation 68 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: of some sort or whether it was just a community 69 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: condition for last a better word. So do check that 70 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: out if you haven't checked it out before. And there's 71 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: another there's another thing that's really interesting. You can hear. Uh. 72 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: You can hear our colleague and occasional guest on the show, 73 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 1: Joe McCormick, who works over It's Stuff to blow your mind. Uh, 74 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: when he and his co host Robert Lamb did an 75 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: episode on what is called the bicameral mind. This is crazy. 76 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 1: There's this theory that for part of human civilization, people 77 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 1: were not self aware the way you are now. Like, 78 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 1: if you're listening to this, you're thinking in your head, 79 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 1: maybe I am listening to this right, just just thought 80 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: that sentence right, and then the words that you hear 81 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: are translated into your own thoughts. Yeah, like an internal monologue. 82 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: I usually just see them visually as like letters in 83 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: a cartoon spelled out in the sky. You know. You 84 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: know that. I think it makes sense. You got the 85 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: you got the word balloons at that time. I think 86 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 1: I might be working with a tri cameral mind. So 87 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: what happens is the idea is that in in the 88 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: distant past of civilization, instead of hearing a voice in 89 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: your head and thinking that's my internal dialogue, that's my 90 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: internal dialogue, these early people would hear a voice and 91 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: they would think, holy crap, somebody's talking to me. Who 92 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: who is that in my head? Uh? What are you? 93 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: Why are you? Are there? Are you there? God? It's 94 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: me Kragner, you know? And uh. And one piece of 95 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:11,239 Speaker 1: evidence for folks who believe this is the dramatically different 96 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 1: writing style of the Iliad. In the Iliad, classical scholars 97 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: amongst us will remember it was written somewhere between eight 98 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: hundred and seven b C or b C E, whatever 99 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: your favorite flavor is. Characters just sort of do things, 100 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:32,039 Speaker 1: you know, and their motivations for a large part of 101 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: this story aren't kind of not present. Just something happens. 102 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: Things just happen, and since we know Greek culture very 103 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: quickly became a literature of consciousness. Uh. The Iliad is 104 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,799 Speaker 1: sometimes seen as a great turning point, tipping point shout 105 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,039 Speaker 1: out to Malcolm Gladwell uh, and a window back into 106 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: what they call the unsubjective times. And every kingdom was 107 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: at theocracy, and every man was the slave of voices 108 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: heard whenever novel situations occur. It's crazy. And religion it 109 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: might also predate humanity, depending on how you define religion. Right. So, 110 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: higher order mammals like cetaceans a new word, fancy word 111 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: for dolphins and whales that I just learned. Um, elephants, canines, 112 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: they all recognize the difference between a living thing and 113 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: a corpse. Hopefully you can as well. Uh. Millennia before 114 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: Homo sapiens existed, UM, its predecessors and parallels practiced some 115 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: form of ancestral recognition, which is an understanding that the 116 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: body was nothing but a vessel for the mind or 117 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: an idea. UM. And then archaeologists referred to apparent intentional 118 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: burials of early Homo sapiens from as early as three 119 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: hundred thousand years ago as evidence of religious beliefs, which 120 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: makes sense to me, right, Yeah, they realize that something 121 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: was there, there is a ritual going yeah, and then 122 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: it's not ritual occurs. Other evidence of religious ideas include 123 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: symbolic artifacts from the Middle Middle Stone Age sites in Africa. 124 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: But of course it's kind of tricky to interpret this, 125 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: you know, even even in the best case scenario, there's 126 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: room for interpretation, which is going to be important as 127 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: we explore this. Archaeological evidence from more recent periods is 128 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: less controversial. Number of artifacts from the Upper Paleolithic are 129 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: generally interpreted by scientists as representing religious ideas, meaning, in general, 130 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: a bunch really smart people who have spent their lives 131 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: figuring out what this stone shard means all got on 132 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: the same page and said, you know, cool, they knew 133 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: he was dead and they did a thing. Yeah. Well, 134 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: I suppose you could also argue that with enough experience, 135 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: you know, you might realize that a dead thing starts 136 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: to be gross and we should probably just get it 137 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: out of sight and out of my mind, or it 138 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: makes you sad, so you don't want to look at anymore. 139 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: So let's bury it in the hole in the ground. 140 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:06,719 Speaker 1: Just Devil's advocating now that's a very you know, that's 141 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: a very good idea because you know, many animals, if 142 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:15,359 Speaker 1: I remember their pure group or their mate or their 143 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: offspring dies, they just leave. I'm just like, all right, 144 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: but I like it here. I don't want to have 145 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: to look at dead, rotting grand mob for the rest 146 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 1: of you know, until for the foreseeable future. Let's let's 147 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: get her out of let's bury her in this upit. 148 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, there are people who know there, there are 149 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: people who keep keep the remains of their loved ones. 150 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 1: And Faulkner has a great story about it, but of 151 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: course spoilers just in case for a hundred year old story. Yeah. Well, okay, 152 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: so we talked about these, Let's let's talk about like 153 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: examples of things that are clearly agreed to be religious. 154 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: The venus figurine are you know, a rather voluptuous, often 155 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:11,559 Speaker 1: headless figure right certainly looks headless all of the examples 156 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: that I've seen, And there are elaborate burial rituals around 157 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 1: the world. There are cave paintings. But where did this 158 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:22,439 Speaker 1: all come from? That's today's question. What prompted early humanity 159 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: or it's close predecessors and parallels is Moll said to 160 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: ascribe occurrences in the physical world to the winds and 161 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: the systems something unseeable. Is it drugs? Maybe? Well? Yeah, 162 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: what connected the either the bicamera mind, what connected the 163 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: parts of the brain that were previously not connected or 164 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: you know, was it just an evolutionary thing or was 165 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: it a chemical yeah? Or was it a social thing? 166 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: Is essentially we're not sure, like we as a species, 167 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: they're they're kind of still tossing this one around, spitballing. 168 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: But there's theories, right, yeah, yeah, the theories. Uh, let's 169 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: call one. We had to do it. D Oh, it's 170 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: not it's not funny for you guys yet because you're 171 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: listening and you don't. It's funny if you read it. 172 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: This is a theory that was put forth by Kelly 173 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 1: James Clark. He's a senior research fellow at Kaufman Interfaith 174 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: Institute at Grand Valley State University in Michigan. Oh, that 175 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: is a mouthful a lot. So he believes that humans 176 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 1: on the Serengetti who quote survived to procreate were those 177 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: who had developed what evolutionary scientists call a hypersensitive agency 178 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:42,079 Speaker 1: detecting device or had h D. D becomes in a 179 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 1: fourth dimensional pun so in basic terms, in plain terms, 180 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: this meant that people who are more likely to survive 181 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:54,079 Speaker 1: and reproduce, reproduce and pass on their experiences as well 182 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: as their genes were people who perceived that many other 183 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: things in the world external things have agency, and what 184 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: we mean by that is the ability to act of 185 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 1: their own accord. I have agency. Other things have agency, 186 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: like like what else? What would have agency? Animals walking 187 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 1: around might be the one of the first things you notice. 188 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: Secret agents other humans very didn't say human secret ages 189 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: like Perry the platypus on Phineas and firm he's a 190 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: secret agent with agency. It was also a platypus. I 191 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: gotta tell you, I don't know what that is. It's 192 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: a great show. It's like a kids show, but adults 193 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: like it too, alright, kind of like an Adventure Time thing. Right, Yeah, 194 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: it's a Disney show, but it's actually very clever. It's 195 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: very well written. Looking into it, do it while looking 196 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: into it, you'll you'll notice that this this had h 197 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 1: a d D. This understanding of how the world worked 198 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: facilitated this rapid decision making process that people had to 199 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: go through when they, for instance, are rustling in the grass. 200 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: So yeah, perfect, not so much stopping to reflect on 201 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: the transients of life as going holy smokes, lions do 202 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: what they want. I better run. I love that picture 203 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:18,439 Speaker 1: of the some of the first humans understanding that that 204 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: lion can come over here and attack me at any time, 205 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: not just oh there's a lion, not just the grass moves, 206 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: but the grass moves because because so that's the kicker, right. 207 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:37,319 Speaker 1: In addition to helping humans make rational decisions, survival based decisions, 208 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,079 Speaker 1: had may have planted the seeds for what we know 209 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 1: as religious thought. Is it sort of like object permanence 210 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: where it's sort of like, you know, that thing will 211 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: always behave in that way, or that thing is only 212 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 1: behaving this way at this moment that I'm observing it. Yes, 213 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: So sort of like that if a tree falls in 214 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: the forest and you're not around, does it make us 215 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: sound or it's like if that if my mom is 216 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: there behind that bush, is she really not there? A? Yeah, 217 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: those are important distincts, That's what I'm saying, Like, well, 218 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: those are things that we come to psychologically as we 219 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: grow older. But it's important what we're talking about. You know, 220 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: in terms of evolution to make those distinctions that allow 221 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: us to actually learn from our mistakes. And it's absolutely crucial, 222 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: and it's one of those early developmental milestones, right like 223 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: when when your children are growing up, there are really 224 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: sensitive times in the early years when all of a 225 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: sudden they have that Eureka moment and you see it happen. Yeah, 226 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: I've seen it firsthand recently with my kids, especially with mirrors, 227 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: little things like that. We don't have to go into 228 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: it anyway, it's cool, but mirrors are weird, agreed. So 229 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: it wasn't just animals and other things moving around that 230 00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: they ascribed agency to. They also ascribed it two things. Sure, 231 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: these rain drops now are falling on purpose on droptops, 232 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 1: but but yeah, things that absolutely don't have agency, like 233 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 1: drop tops. I don't know the first human raindrop. You 234 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: gotta make the top drop drop on its own drop top. 235 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: You got to apply something drops the top though, right, 236 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: So when the rainfalls, like something dropped that rain, what 237 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:31,239 Speaker 1: was it? Yeah, like creation demands a creator? Yeah exactly. 238 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: I mean we're sitting in this room right now recording 239 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: this and wait, some someone is going to cut to 240 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: an ad break. It's me and we're back. But who 241 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: was it? It was? It was me? It was definitely 242 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: say it was. I gotta believe it. You don't see 243 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 1: it happen. That's the magic of podcasting. That part happens 244 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: away from your prying eyes, in the same way that 245 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: some sort of prime mover creator deity drops the drops 246 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: on the tops? What drop? But where does the drop 247 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: ultimately drop? Here's another theory about religion. What if instead 248 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: of a single individual um adaptation or Shamalan plot twist 249 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: and the story of humanity? But if it's not just 250 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: a story about things that apply to individuals reproducing, what 251 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: if religion is more of a group adaptation? Oh, I 252 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: could go along with that. This is an idea by 253 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: Robin Dunbar, and evolutionary psychologist and anthropologist at the University 254 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: of Oxford in the UK. His work focuses mostly on 255 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,479 Speaker 1: the behavior of primates, including you know, things like baboons. 256 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: Why does he sound familiar to me? I think you know? No, 257 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: I don't. He is the famous proponent of something called 258 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 1: Dunbar's number. You made a video on this, Yes, we 259 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 1: talked about this on the show too. And it's the 260 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 1: idea that the human brain is physiologically limited. Think about 261 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: for anyone who works with computers extensively, think about the 262 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: physiological hardware limits of a computer. There's some software it 263 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: can't run. There are some things that it doesn't have 264 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: enough memory to store. Right. We run into this often, 265 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: as you can imagine daily. What was his number? Is 266 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 1: it a hundred something? It was two on four, six, five, three? No? No, no, okay, yes, 267 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 1: you're right, I think it's yeah, one, eight, eight, you know, 268 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 1: just keep it, Nate, it was it was a hundred 269 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 1: and fifty maybe fifty. Yeah, Humans that you can ever 270 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: really maintain a relationship with or see as a peer. Yes, 271 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: And then after see, as you know, the way that 272 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: you see your friends, you understand that they are the 273 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: main characters of their own story. And no matter how 274 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,199 Speaker 1: close you are, you are a cameo. You are a 275 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: secondary character and everybody else's story. And after that number, 276 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:18,880 Speaker 1: your brain is just incapable of understanding that those other 277 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: people past that, like number three hundred and forty seven 278 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: that you meet, is just the thing that takes the 279 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 1: garbage out, or the thing that walks by you on 280 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: the way to the bus every morning, the thing that 281 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: runs the justice department, the thing that you vote for. 282 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 1: You know, it's a scary idea. But Dunbar also applies 283 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 1: this thinking to your religion. Um, and that he says 284 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: that religion may have actually evolved as what he calls 285 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: a group level adaptation, which we mentioned before, religion being 286 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: a quote kind of glue that holds society together. Um. 287 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: We've also heard it as referred to as the opiate 288 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: of the masses. A similar yet antithetical notion to that 289 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,199 Speaker 1: in an interesting way. Yeah, perfect, because it is like, 290 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: that's religion and ideology. A value system is a way 291 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 1: for number three seven to have something in common with you. 292 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: You know. Now it's not just the thing in the 293 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 1: justice department or the thing that cooks the food. It's 294 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 1: also the thing that believes what I believe. Yeah, yes, exactly. 295 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,439 Speaker 1: And there's one more theory. It is one of the 296 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: most controversial theories. Do we need another disclaimer? Um, if 297 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: you if you're feeling uncomfortable at this point, stick your 298 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: fingers in your ears. No, yes, do that, and then 299 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: also rewind back to that part where we had a disclaimer, 300 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: and then come back here just to reassure yourself. Here's 301 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: the question, what if the original inspiration for some of 302 00:19:52,359 --> 00:20:01,159 Speaker 1: the world's most influential religions was ultimately not evolution, but hallucinogens. WHOA, 303 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: that's right, magic mushrooms, psilocybin, simple simon. Have we already 304 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,880 Speaker 1: said psilocybin? Let's say it again. I think that's where 305 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: simple simon comes from, because it kind of sounds like psilocybin. Yeah, 306 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: how about those Mario make big bites God's flesh? Did 307 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,199 Speaker 1: you make that last one out? I don't know. Is 308 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: that in the vernacular? It's a mushroom? Okay it is? Now. 309 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 1: I love mushrooms. Now when I say that, I mean 310 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:34,159 Speaker 1: I love delicious mushrooms. Portobellos, you know, is trumpeters, the 311 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: weird ones, the weird, bulbous looking ones. But as we know, 312 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 1: when you grow them a certain way, certain species, they 313 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: can make the get a little funny, make you think, 314 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 1: make you feel a little funny, think a little funny, 315 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: see things a little differently. Here's where it gets crazy. 316 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: In his book The Sacred Mushroom in the Cross, an 317 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 1: author named John Marco Allegro argues that quote, our present 318 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: concern is to show that Judaism and Christianity are cultic 319 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,119 Speaker 1: expressions of an endless pursuit by man to discover instant 320 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: power and knowledge. Granted the first proposition that the vital 321 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: forces of nature are controlled by an extra terrestrial intelligence, 322 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: these religions are logical developments from older, cruder fertility cults. 323 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 1: With the advance of technical proficiencies, the aim of religious 324 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 1: ritual became less to influence the weather and the crops 325 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: than to attain wisdom and the knowledge of the future. Essentially, 326 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 1: his argument is that modern religions, especially the Abramaic ones, Judaism, Christianity, 327 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: Islam of Islam, to a degree, sprang from these ancient 328 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 1: fertility cults. I gotta pause really fast here and just 329 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: point out that I've never thought in my head about 330 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 1: a religion as focusing on an extra terrestrial intelligence, as 331 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: an um an intelligence that is not on earth or 332 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 1: of Earth. Even when you say it that way, Isn't 333 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: that with like all religion, Yeah, it is, it is, 334 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: But I've never I've never used it. I've never used 335 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: the phrase extra terre real intelligence in that manner of 336 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 1: thinking about what God could be or is extraterrestrial has 337 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: become very specific in our time, at least in our 338 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 1: version of this language, it's become this kind of like 339 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 1: there's like hocum surrounding it to the point where you 340 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,160 Speaker 1: can't use it in a way that people don't sort 341 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: of like turn their noses up at in a way, 342 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I don't know, like not 343 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: all people obviously, let people listen to the show and 344 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: we are, you know, into the that those explorations. But 345 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 1: the term extraterrestrial, which when it really just means not 346 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 1: of this earth, has become sort of a buzz phrase 347 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: that has negative connotations in terms of like its use 348 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 1: in veracity. But I think it's totally applicable to what 349 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,400 Speaker 1: God is, to what religion is, to what these deities 350 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: actually are. They're totally extraterrestrials in many ways. Uh, In 351 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: many ways, people regardless of the particular religion, would say 352 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 1: this is something beyond us to some degree incomprehensible or dawned, 353 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: difficult to comprehend. Legrou goes on and he argues that 354 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: these ancient cults had knowledge of psychoactive drugs and plant form, 355 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: but they prevented this knowledge from becoming two widespread. They 356 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: were the shaman, you know, and they were the priests 357 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: and the quote is quote. These were the drug herbs, 358 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 1: the science of whose cultivation and use had been accumulated 359 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,400 Speaker 1: over centuries of observation and dangerous experiment. Those who had 360 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: this secret wisdom of the plants were the chosen of 361 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: their God. To them alone, had he vouchsafed the privilege 362 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 1: of access to the heavenly throne. And if he was 363 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 1: jealous of his power, no less were those who served 364 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: him in the cultic mysteries. Theirs was no gospel to 365 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 1: be shouted from the rooftops. Paradise was for none but 366 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 1: the favored few. The incantations and rights by which they 367 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 1: conjured forth their drug plants, and the details of the 368 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: bodily and mental preparations undergone before they could ingest their God, 369 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: were the secrets of the cult, to which none but 370 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: the initiate, bound by fearful oaths, had access. That reminds 371 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: me of ayahuasca rituals like that takes the laborious thing 372 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 1: to create the substance that will take you on this 373 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: spiritual trip, and the and the ritual of ingestion is 374 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 1: as important as the substance itself. In times of war, 375 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:33,360 Speaker 1: though the widespread social disruption, something happened this, these um 376 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 1: orally transmitted mysteries became difficult to transmit right. People were dying, 377 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: people were being imprisoned and slaved, slaughtered, and mass so 378 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: the priests had to write this knowledge down. And Allegro's 379 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: idea is that they wrote it down in an esoteric 380 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 1: or coded form that only another priest, only another initiate, 381 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,479 Speaker 1: would recognize and be able to translate, essentially if you're 382 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: going to teach someone else about this. And Allegro argues 383 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: that the specific instance where this occurred the turning point 384 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: was the Jewish revolt of sixty six eight sixty six, 385 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: and we have a quote on that one too, Instigated 386 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 1: probably by members of the cult swayed by their drug 387 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: induced madness to believe God and called them to master 388 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: the world in his name. They provoked the mighty power 389 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: of Rome to swift and terrible action. Jerusalem was ravaged, 390 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: her temple destroyed, Judaism was disrupted, and her people driven 391 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:39,119 Speaker 1: to seek refuge. With communities already established around the Mediterranean 392 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: coast lands, the Mystery cults found themselves without a central 393 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: fount of authority, with many of their priests killed in 394 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: the abortive rebellion or driven into the desert. The secrets, 395 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: if they were not to be lost forever, had to 396 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: be committed to writing, and if found, the documents must 397 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: give nothing away or betray those who had dared defy 398 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 1: the Roman author parties. So this need for coded communication 399 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 1: about the use of sacred plants and the performance of 400 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: sacred rituals. Then again, we cannot emphasize this enough, according 401 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,439 Speaker 1: to this author. According to Allegro, it led to the 402 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 1: creation of a rabbi named Jesus. To tell the story 403 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: of a rabbi called Jesus and invest him with the 404 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: power and names of this magic drug, to have him 405 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 1: live before the terrible events that had disrupted their lives, 406 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,679 Speaker 1: to preach a love between men, extending even to the 407 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 1: hated Romans. Thus, reading such a tale, should it fall 408 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: into Roman hands, even their mortal enemies might be deceived 409 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: and not probe farther into the activities of the cells 410 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:47,439 Speaker 1: of the mystery cults within their territories. Oh, it sounds 411 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: so cool. Grand conspiracy, and this guy Allegro acknowledges that 412 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 1: his sub diffuge failed, as evidenced by the majority of 413 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,439 Speaker 1: Christians who believe Jesus Christ was an historical figure, not 414 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,959 Speaker 1: a metaphor for a psychoactive drug in some sort of 415 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 1: mystery religion. But what drug was it, you might wonder. 416 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: We have one last quote above all they forgot or 417 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,959 Speaker 1: purged from the cult in their memories, the one supreme 418 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: secret on which their whole religious and ecstatic experience depended. 419 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: The names and identity of the source of the drug, 420 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: the key to heaven, the sacred mushroom, the fungus recognized 421 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:40,159 Speaker 1: today as the amanita muscaria or the fly a garrick. 422 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 1: So let's take a moment, guys, what do you think 423 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 1: you want to do? Some pros and cons It sounds 424 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: like all prose to me. Speaking of all prose, his 425 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 1: argument hinges on pros or more specifically atomology. Yeah, we're 426 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: we're getting weird with the puns today. Uh. It relates 427 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,919 Speaker 1: the development of language to the development of myths and 428 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: religions and cultic practices. So, for example, he relates mushrooms 429 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: to fertility or experience of the divine, So he's connecting 430 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 1: it to the phrase son of God. He's arguing that 431 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: since he's tracing this back to fertility cults, he's arguing 432 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: that the mushroom, by being an encounter with the divine, 433 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 1: was seen as you know, the offspring of God. And 434 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: in some ways it might be seen as like a 435 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: reproductive fluid, in other ways might be seen as the 436 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: flesh of this of this extraterrestrial divine creature. He believes 437 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 1: ancient evidence about the other phrases used to refer to 438 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: this stuff will bear out the argument, and he does 439 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: acknowledge that it's largely concerned with words and titles. And 440 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: he believes that only when we discover the nomenclature of 441 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: the sacred fungus within and without the cult can we 442 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: begin to understand its function and the theology behind it. 443 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: So you know, this leads into naturally the concept that 444 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: eat of my flesh. He also talks about the visual 445 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: similarities between uh iconic depictions of the crucifixion and the 446 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: shape of a mushroom. I feel like that's kind of 447 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: a stretch, but I mean, I get it, unless we 448 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: not forget that a mushroom does bear some resemblance to 449 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: a phallus male reproductive organiz thallus thallus in Wonderland, gotta say, 450 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: specifically circumcised. In most mushroom cases, Lewis Carroll is such 451 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: a creep. I just want to put that out there. 452 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: Did you know that part of his diary pages were 453 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: torn out and destroyed? It was death because they were 454 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: that it was too hot for TV. We'll never know. 455 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 1: There's also the idea of manna from heaven being the 456 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: bread of a life that comes from God himself itself. 457 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, yeah, yeah, that's that's something that mystifies a 458 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: lot of people, especially growing up with a belief system. 459 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: A lot of people, you know, think that manna is 460 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: something on a tree like an apple or you know, 461 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 1: a other fruit. Oraich, sure, yes, wasn't it like a 462 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: like the way you regained health in the Final Fantasy Games? 463 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 1: Wasn't that manna? I think? So? It was definitely magic 464 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: in Skyrom In most RPGs and games I play, manna 465 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: is yeah, your magic power which comes from this. I mean, 466 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: it's this idea that it's sort of a replenishing spiritual force, 467 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: that it can be squandered and regained or sort of 468 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: feeds your spiritual life force in some way. In magic, 469 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 1: the gathering, you have to tap your manna and make 470 00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: use of all the land that you control to cast spells. 471 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: He blessed more of a Pokemon Now I'm kidding, I 472 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: actually want to get into that. If I've recently with 473 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: the kid, she's finally got the attention span for games 474 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 1: like that, and I'm I'm the one who just wants 475 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: to force her into it because I want to do it. 476 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: I need someone to play with. So we've been playing Pokemon, 477 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: but I'm gonna try to graduate her y magic the gathering. 478 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, Tyler's Okay, you guys will know who 479 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,479 Speaker 1: Tyler is. He's another producer here. His kid is like 480 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: getting hard on the paint and with the Pokemon cards, 481 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: and both of us are just banking that he's gonna 482 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: be ready to play magic with us. Isn't really expensive? Yeah? 483 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: Is that? Though? We have like three decks, and you know, 484 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: I bought a couple of booster packs, but our decks 485 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: are pretty well masked. I think what happens is you 486 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: get tired of seeing the same cards over and over again, 487 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: or you need to like fit your trick your deck 488 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 1: out so that you, you know, can defeat someone that 489 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: has a super tricked out deck. But we digress and 490 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 1: we progress as well. So the uh, the weird thing 491 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: is all right. We know, we're fully conscious of the 492 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: fact that this sounds like maybe confirmation bias. Maybe this 493 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: guy just really wants to see it. Uh. But there 494 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: are numerous paintings of religious uh moments in the Old Testament. 495 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 1: In the New Testament, they clearly depict mushrooms. There's a 496 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: thirteenth century chapel in France. In there there's a clear 497 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 1: depiction of Adam and Eve and the next to a tree. 498 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 1: It's very Garden of Eden, but the tree is made 499 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: out of Emminita muscaria mushrooms and the serpents coiling around 500 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: the tree. It seems weird, right that this would be 501 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 1: the most arguably one of the most famous stories in 502 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: the Bible, Right, Yeah, the when Adam and Eve betrayed 503 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 1: God ate the fruit that it was like the only 504 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: thing you're not supposed to do appear that fruit. Well, 505 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: apparently it was. And there are you know, there are 506 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: a lot of beliefs that the fruit itself was knowledge 507 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 1: of like what I am? You know? I am Eve? 508 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: Have you tasted pure knowledge? Is that fruit? Well? In 509 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: this case, what if it was the key that the 510 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: key that unlocked all of the mysteries that's good. I 511 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 1: like that, especially compared to those quotes we were reading earlier. 512 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: I mean ingesting something, you know, like whether it's a 513 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: metaphor or a stand in for like enlightenment, but the 514 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: idea that maybe it's not, maybe it's an actual substance. Well, 515 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: yeah it's again. I go back to the invisibles because Ben, 516 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: thank you again for introducing me to that. But the 517 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 1: there's a substance in there, right that allows access to 518 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: a higher level of some sort in it, and it's 519 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: some kind of hallucinogen. It's like an where the guy 520 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: likes the homeless guy who kind of takes him on 521 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,719 Speaker 1: as a real kid. He like smokes something, and then 522 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 1: all of a sudden they're like through the looking glass. Yeah, this, uh, 523 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 1: this idea is you know, um, this idea exists on 524 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: several different levels, metaphorical literal. As you can see, it's 525 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 1: open to interpretation, which brings us to some of the cons. 526 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 1: Not very con, not dragon con, comic con. Yeah, so 527 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: many cons in this case. One big con is that 528 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 1: all major scholars rejected Allegro's idea, and this guy's a legit, 529 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: a legit scholar. His mentor was like man what are 530 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,959 Speaker 1: you doing, buddy? And the publisher who published it was like, ah, 531 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,800 Speaker 1: we shouldn't have gotten involved. So the full text is 532 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: available online, The Sacred Mushroom in the Cross. You can 533 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 1: read it. Uh, you can read it online. It has 534 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 1: its own internal argument, it's own internal logic rather, but 535 00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 1: it makes certain jumps assumptions that leave m for criticism 536 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: and invalidation, just like the guy wrote Chariots of the 537 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 1: Gods Eric von danikin it's easy for people to see 538 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 1: what they want to see when they look at ancient 539 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:13,840 Speaker 1: writing and ruins. That's why, you know, in the beginning 540 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 1: of the show, we talked about how even the most 541 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 1: well read erudite people will disagree on the purpose or 542 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 1: the intention behind an ancient thing that they found the 543 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:29,200 Speaker 1: flotsam and jetsam of the world, because many times there's 544 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,319 Speaker 1: not another human or a piece of writing that will 545 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: will come out and give you a definitive answer. So ultimately, 546 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:38,799 Speaker 1: like a lot of things, you're left with your own 547 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,800 Speaker 1: interpretation or the interpretation of somebody who's studied it for 548 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,360 Speaker 1: a long time. But but, but, but, but there's a 549 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: big butt. It is certainly true that many religions have 550 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 1: had relationships with psychoactive substances. Oh yes, and we will 551 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 1: wade into those psychedelic waters when we get back from this. 552 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: Feel like, out of so many shows that we've done, 553 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: this would be the one where we were just inexplicably 554 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:20,360 Speaker 1: paused for a psychedelic guitar. There we go. You're tuned 555 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 1: into stuff they don't want you to know. Just just 556 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 1: keep looping that in the end. It so so We've 557 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:31,799 Speaker 1: got some examples of different hallucinen's playing a role in 558 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 1: different religions, not just uh, not just in the abramaic 559 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 1: stuff that Allegro is talking about, but around the world. 560 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 1: In book nine of the classic Hindu text to the 561 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,320 Speaker 1: rig Vada of this pressed juice called soma is mentioned 562 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 1: as something that was drunk by priests, and some sort 563 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: of visionary state is reported when you when you ingest 564 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 1: this stuff, um like this realm where happiness and joy 565 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,799 Speaker 1: and all kinds of things just kind of combine, all 566 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: the good positive things combined. And it's also where longing 567 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 1: wishes are fulfilled. And some people believe that sola could 568 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 1: have been a psychedelic mushroom, maybe even amanita our Gordon 569 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,319 Speaker 1: Wasson is a scholar who held this opinion, and in 570 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,799 Speaker 1: Foot of the Gods, Terrence mckinna says that a more 571 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,440 Speaker 1: likely candidate for soma, due to its better efficacy at 572 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 1: inducing psychedelic states, is a different mushroom, the Psilocybe cobenses. 573 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: This is a mushroom that can grow in cow dung 574 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,839 Speaker 1: in certain climates, which may explain why the cow has 575 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 1: gained such a sacred status in the Hindu tradition. But 576 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,759 Speaker 1: other academics claim that soma was cannabis. You know, and 577 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 1: I've actually had someone make soma for me before, but 578 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 1: it was not a hallucinogen. It was just this relaxing route. 579 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 1: There's also a pharmaceutical drug called Soma that's like a 580 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: muscle relaxer or like an antipsychotic. I want to say, 581 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 1: oh wow, I think out as Huxley right, uh references 582 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 1: Soma the Brave New World. You just to confirm what 583 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,400 Speaker 1: I said before. Soma is in fact a drug on 584 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 1: the market called keras so prod all um and its 585 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 1: brand name or Soma or vana dem And it's a 586 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 1: muscle relaxer that can block pain to the nerves. So 587 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: you might take it if you have a skeletal muscle issue, 588 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 1: back injury, or the like. I just think it's interesting 589 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 1: this term has persevered over the years. Uh yeah. And 590 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 1: in addition, there were other examples. The blue lotus flower 591 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 1: was worshiped by the ancient Egyptian civilization, and it's now 592 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,359 Speaker 1: believed that this flower had some psychoactive properties itself, maybe 593 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,920 Speaker 1: a little naturally occurring d MT. We've we saw that 594 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 1: in our exploration of d MT. Right, there are tons 595 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: of plants that just contain it. I yes, to everyone 596 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 1: who's writing to us about d m T, we do 597 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,279 Speaker 1: have uh an existing at least a video or two 598 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,800 Speaker 1: on it. Again, dimethyl trip I mean, don't do drugs, 599 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 1: even though d MT naturally occurs in trace amounts in 600 00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 1: your own brain. But don't worry about that. Just keep 601 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 1: on and keeping on. And there are mushroom cults in 602 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 1: Mesoamerica dating back to at least a thousand b c uh. 603 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,000 Speaker 1: These are indicated by mushroom stone effigies found in the 604 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 1: Guatemalan Highlands. In addition, frescoes from Central Mexico also show 605 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 1: signs of mushroom worship. Then we get to these things 606 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 1: called mystery religions. Matt that's right. The Lucinian mysteries were 607 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 1: initiation ceremonies held every year for the cult of Demeter 608 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 1: and Persephone and ancient Greece. And there was this drink 609 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:36,799 Speaker 1: called Kaikon and it was consumed, which the Iliad says 610 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 1: was made up of barley, water, herbs, and goat cheese. 611 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 1: That sounds disgusting. In the Odyssey, however, the character Searcy 612 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,360 Speaker 1: adds a magic potion to it, and some people have 613 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,640 Speaker 1: speculated that the barley used in this drink was parasitized 614 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:56,279 Speaker 1: by ergot that's a fungus that it is believed to 615 00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 1: be responsible for intense experiences people reported during these mystery 616 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: initiations and rituals, and ergot contains ergotamine, which is a 617 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 1: precursor to l s D. You've also maybe heard about 618 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:16,720 Speaker 1: this as a proposed cause for uh sat almost fire 619 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 1: and for the Salem witch trials yea, and all kinds 620 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:24,920 Speaker 1: of other vampire panics throughout the United States history. And 621 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 1: just to put this out there, I've said it before 622 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 1: and I'll say it again. Go see the Witch, one 623 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,800 Speaker 1: of my favorite last year. In my opinion, this plays 624 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 1: a part and that it's up for debate. But cool. 625 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:40,759 Speaker 1: Don't you mean the Witch? The it's titling is really cool. 626 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,799 Speaker 1: It's like two vs. What is that like to live deliciously? 627 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:50,439 Speaker 1: Yep black. Oh, we haven't spoiled it, but we hope 628 00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,560 Speaker 1: we've wetted your appetite for it. Right to us. Let 629 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 1: us know what you think about this movie, because we 630 00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:59,440 Speaker 1: will literally sit around off air and talk about it. 631 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:03,760 Speaker 1: Actually saw it with co worker and fellow podcaster Lauren 632 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:08,279 Speaker 1: Vogelbaum of food Stuff Fame. Uh and but when it 633 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 1: was over, we were both just kind of sat there 634 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,720 Speaker 1: looking at each other like what we saw something we 635 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,200 Speaker 1: weren't supposed to see. I watched it alone in my 636 00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 1: house in the dark, with headphones on, and I was 637 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:23,880 Speaker 1: unnerved in in the most spectacular way. I like to 638 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,919 Speaker 1: play it while I exercise. Just watch the Witch while 639 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:31,879 Speaker 1: you work out. Yeah, that in the shining mm hmm, 640 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:34,920 Speaker 1: it just motivates. I get it. I got it. Well, 641 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:36,880 Speaker 1: Well that's we don't want to get too deep into 642 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,520 Speaker 1: the off air stuff. But yes, the which is completely 643 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:44,440 Speaker 1: worth your time. So here we are with a cursory 644 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:50,239 Speaker 1: examination of this theory. Now this make no bones about it. 645 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:56,680 Speaker 1: This is very controversial. Some indeed found allegros exploration offensive, 646 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 1: but it is at this point still an exploration only. 647 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,520 Speaker 1: It's completely possible that psychoactive substances have played crucial roles 648 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,120 Speaker 1: in numerous religions. We know they have. We know they 649 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:16,640 Speaker 1: have ayahuasca, for instance. However, if this specific mushroom did 650 00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,239 Speaker 1: play a role in the formation of fertility cults that 651 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,280 Speaker 1: later led to the Abramaic religions, and if the priest 652 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:28,200 Speaker 1: of the time really did manufacture Jesus Christ as some 653 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,840 Speaker 1: sort of metaphor or code for these mushrooms, these plants, 654 00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:36,200 Speaker 1: and these rituals, then they clearly failed to preserve their 655 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,720 Speaker 1: original meaning, because, as h No I think you pointed 656 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,640 Speaker 1: out earlier, the vast majority of Christians today do not 657 00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:47,759 Speaker 1: believe this idea. And if preservation of these mysteries was 658 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 1: the key, wouldn't the priest have wanted people to know? 659 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 1: Unless that is of course, the Catholic Church has a few, 660 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,040 Speaker 1: very very well kept secrets, more than we suspect up 661 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:05,319 Speaker 1: their sleeves, which I would be I'm I would be 662 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,120 Speaker 1: very surprised. But it's true. The Catholic Church has a 663 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,600 Speaker 1: lot of SECRETSU buddy, that was about to say, they've 664 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,200 Speaker 1: got like whole rooms that are just for secrets, right, 665 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 1: especially fitted to house various shapes and flavors of secrets. 666 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,440 Speaker 1: Just to be fair here, I think if these Mystery 667 00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:24,239 Speaker 1: Religion cult leaders were trying to get all of this 668 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:30,040 Speaker 1: stuff down in this incredibly complex allegory and they're doing 669 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,440 Speaker 1: mushrooms on a consistent basis, I think I think, if 670 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:35,640 Speaker 1: it's true, they did a pretty darn good job, because 671 00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:40,880 Speaker 1: I think they're a hat tip to you, Mystery religion priests, 672 00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,960 Speaker 1: for keeping it together with a head full of dreams. Right, 673 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,640 Speaker 1: we want to hear from you. Have you have you 674 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:55,240 Speaker 1: explored this idea yourself? What's what's your take on this? 675 00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:59,439 Speaker 1: Is this maybe um just just a fringe theory where 676 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,800 Speaker 1: someone's out there to be out there on the fringes? 677 00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:08,160 Speaker 1: Is there something to it? Because again, those depictions, those 678 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:14,440 Speaker 1: those paintings do have clear depictions of mushrooms. But is 679 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,000 Speaker 1: this author reading too much into it or is there 680 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:19,719 Speaker 1: something there? Well? I have a lot of thoughts on this. 681 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:22,920 Speaker 1: You guys, do you listening out there? Do you have 682 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,640 Speaker 1: any ideas or thoughts on this subject? I'm sure you do. 683 00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:31,080 Speaker 1: Have you tried one of these substances and experienced something. 684 00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:33,520 Speaker 1: Maybe don't write to us about that. Maybe that's a 685 00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:35,960 Speaker 1: bad idea. Is that a bad idea? Of course, it's 686 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,480 Speaker 1: not a bad idea. We will not compromise your identity, 687 00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:40,520 Speaker 1: and if you wish, we will use an alias. Again, 688 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:43,080 Speaker 1: don't do it. But if you've happen to find yourself 689 00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,040 Speaker 1: into that position where you've happened to do it, it 690 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,480 Speaker 1: would be cool to hear about it. Okay, that's not 691 00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:52,000 Speaker 1: being irresponsible. We legally cannot tell you to do drugs, 692 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:59,200 Speaker 1: but if someone you know does send us a message, yep, 693 00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:03,080 Speaker 1: this is probably the one. Speaking of messages, it's time 694 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:09,759 Speaker 1: for shut at corners. So we received We received a 695 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:14,800 Speaker 1: lot of feedback on our earlier episode called Lake City 696 00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:18,759 Speaker 1: Quiet Pills, which is about a Reddit mystery, and we 697 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,560 Speaker 1: wanted to share with everyone some of the follow up 698 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:27,799 Speaker 1: correspondence we had, which really surprised us. We have one 699 00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,799 Speaker 1: email that came to us through a blocker, meaning that 700 00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,520 Speaker 1: we were able to read it like a like what 701 00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:37,600 Speaker 1: you would read an anonymous post. We do not know 702 00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,560 Speaker 1: the identity of this person, which both means we cannot 703 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:46,719 Speaker 1: verify it and we can't really make any any definitive decisions. 704 00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:49,799 Speaker 1: But we'd like to read it to you. Hello, stuff 705 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,120 Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. Long time listener, though 706 00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,000 Speaker 1: never expected to be reaching out, especially not like this. 707 00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:57,560 Speaker 1: I had a bit of a personal revelation during your 708 00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:01,000 Speaker 1: episode referencing Lake City Pills. More than ten years ago, 709 00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:04,360 Speaker 1: I walked down on my father visiting a jailbait pornographic website. 710 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:06,239 Speaker 1: I was aghast, and he screamed that we should never 711 00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:08,920 Speaker 1: speak of it, which made perfect sense to me. However, 712 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:10,759 Speaker 1: I was terrified by what he was doing, so I 713 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,400 Speaker 1: installed a key logger on his computer to determine if 714 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,680 Speaker 1: this was accidental on his part or if I needed 715 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,040 Speaker 1: to reach out to the authorities. The key logger generated 716 00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:23,759 Speaker 1: normal usage data and rather generic pornographic terms late at night, 717 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:27,760 Speaker 1: only occasionally referencing the same jail bait site Old Guys 718 00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,520 Speaker 1: image Hosting, and then followed by what at the time 719 00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:33,000 Speaker 1: I felt was gibberish. I felt it was gibberish until 720 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,120 Speaker 1: I heard you three read the same sort of code 721 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:38,080 Speaker 1: out in the air on this podcast, and I immediately 722 00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,239 Speaker 1: broke out into a cold sweat. There is additional information 723 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,200 Speaker 1: that ran home that my father was involved in this, 724 00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,000 Speaker 1: though some of it is two on the nose and 725 00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:48,640 Speaker 1: its identification of those close to me to be been 726 00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,960 Speaker 1: able to verify that information. Suffice to say, he went 727 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,920 Speaker 1: on far too many business trips for one in his position. 728 00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:57,919 Speaker 1: I suppose I should also mention that the retire Prior 729 00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:00,360 Speaker 1: to nine eleven, my father was a ranger, later a 730 00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:02,719 Speaker 1: member of Delta. He came in during the eighties and 731 00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,560 Speaker 1: spent extended time doing ground operations in the Middle East. 732 00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:08,879 Speaker 1: I can still remember getting letters from him with every 733 00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:11,719 Speaker 1: word redacted aside from love Dad at the bottom. I 734 00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:14,799 Speaker 1: can also clearly remember Blackwater coming to recruit my father 735 00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,160 Speaker 1: post nine eleven, which was unnerving and unannounced. He refused 736 00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:20,640 Speaker 1: their offer. My father has also gone on at length 737 00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,200 Speaker 1: and private regarding the important role extra judicial killing serve 738 00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:26,600 Speaker 1: and keeping the relative peace in the world. He is 739 00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:28,759 Speaker 1: very much in needs of the many outweighs the needs 740 00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:30,880 Speaker 1: of the few. I will not be able to receive 741 00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,520 Speaker 1: a new replies to this mailbox. I also apologize for 742 00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:35,919 Speaker 1: not providing any proof to you, but it's an unnecessary 743 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,360 Speaker 1: risk for me. Thank you. It is strangely comforting to 744 00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:40,120 Speaker 1: find out so many years later that my father is 745 00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,279 Speaker 1: a murderer and not a pedophile. Sometimes bad people need 746 00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:46,879 Speaker 1: a quiet pill so good people can sleep peacefully. Unsigned 747 00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:55,400 Speaker 1: wow wow, okay, are our second one, our second piece 748 00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,839 Speaker 1: of correspondence. Thank you to whoever that was um second 749 00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,320 Speaker 1: piece I think one reads and no need to comment 750 00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:03,319 Speaker 1: on that because it if you heard the episode, you 751 00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,040 Speaker 1: understand what an amazing artifact that is. And we really 752 00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:09,560 Speaker 1: do appreciate you sharing and shedding some light on this 753 00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:12,719 Speaker 1: system that we talked about that we we honestly uh 754 00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:15,279 Speaker 1: yeah that there's a lot to unpack there. Yeah, if 755 00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,920 Speaker 1: it is, you know, true, because we can't confirm or 756 00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:22,200 Speaker 1: deny any of it. Um, but let's move on. Our 757 00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,759 Speaker 1: second piece of correspondence comes from someone who signs their 758 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:30,920 Speaker 1: letter T and it says to conspiracy. Hey, guys Dutch. 759 00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:33,560 Speaker 1: Milo was not part of a hit squad. He was 760 00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:37,160 Speaker 1: associated with a military contracting service. He would get people 761 00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:40,279 Speaker 1: in touch with a gentleman named Thomas Lahy, who, after 762 00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:43,640 Speaker 1: being removed from dp D, began recruiting for a company 763 00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:47,600 Speaker 1: called Alpha Omega Security Solutions. Milo was friends with Alpha 764 00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,440 Speaker 1: Omega because their operations in Central America lead to a 765 00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:53,799 Speaker 1: large amount of association in things that Milo had an 766 00:48:53,800 --> 00:49:00,399 Speaker 1: interest i e. Child porn, Milo helped recruiting some people 767 00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:02,680 Speaker 1: returned the favor. He did not die peacefully in his 768 00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:05,680 Speaker 1: philosophy of some people being evil so they just needed 769 00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:10,040 Speaker 1: to go was what ended up leading to his demise. Wow, 770 00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:15,120 Speaker 1: and our final shout out today is for Ron b Um. 771 00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,200 Speaker 1: He says, I've been a fan of the podcast since 772 00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:19,840 Speaker 1: the videos first started coming out, and I was zapped 773 00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:23,759 Speaker 1: temporarily off to a reality where it disappeared. When I 774 00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,040 Speaker 1: finally made it back to this reality, I discovered that 775 00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:28,960 Speaker 1: there was now an audio version, which I'm thoroughly enjoying. 776 00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:31,279 Speaker 1: That's good to hear. Thank you. Um. I just got 777 00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:34,080 Speaker 1: done listening to your Crime, Kidnapping and Organs the Red 778 00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:36,600 Speaker 1: Market episode, and I couldn't help but write about it. 779 00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:39,640 Speaker 1: During the parts of the episode where the Oregon Trail 780 00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:41,839 Speaker 1: was being discussed, I could not help but think of 781 00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:45,160 Speaker 1: the game the Organ Trail. The game has done faithfully 782 00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:47,760 Speaker 1: to the old school Oregan Trail graphics and play style, 783 00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:51,600 Speaker 1: but with zombies and a wood paneled station wagon in 784 00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:54,960 Speaker 1: lieu of the covered wagons. Even has the first person 785 00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:59,960 Speaker 1: you meet die of dysentery. Anything less would be a travesty. 786 00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:03,560 Speaker 1: That's my line, not ron By's keep up the good work. 787 00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:05,880 Speaker 1: I look forward to the notifications that pop up in 788 00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:08,560 Speaker 1: the app with each new episode. Oh man, he even 789 00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:12,279 Speaker 1: gets the notifications ap ron By. Thanks And speaking of 790 00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,839 Speaker 1: that reality with video, with lack of videos, what's what? 791 00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:19,160 Speaker 1: What's it? What it do? Guys, We're back in the game. 792 00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:23,480 Speaker 1: We're back in the game. I'm gonna expect more from 793 00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:26,760 Speaker 1: as soon. You can also find our first long form 794 00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:29,759 Speaker 1: documentary on the Georgia Guidestones that all three of us 795 00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:32,839 Speaker 1: put a lot of effort in uh for free on Amazon. Yeah. 796 00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:35,520 Speaker 1: If you go to Amazon, search guide Stones or etched 797 00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:37,560 Speaker 1: in the secret you could even search for Ben Bowling 798 00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:41,200 Speaker 1: if you want to, or No Brown and you'll find it. 799 00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:49,239 Speaker 1: And this concludes, but not our show. We are going 800 00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:53,360 Speaker 1: to head out and work on a number of things. 801 00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:55,680 Speaker 1: In the meantime, we want to hear from you. Do 802 00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:58,640 Speaker 1: you have information about this topic that you think would 803 00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:04,399 Speaker 1: illumine at your fellow listeners globally and unlimitedly? If so, 804 00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:06,759 Speaker 1: let us know. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, 805 00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:10,279 Speaker 1: and Instagram, and you can write to us directly. We 806 00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:32,960 Speaker 1: are conspiracy at how stuff Works dot com.