1 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, 2 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big 3 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:16,920 Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they 4 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:25,440 Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners. Wherever 6 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: you are in the world, it is so great to 7 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: have you here. Back for another episode as we, of 8 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: course break down the psychology of our twenties. Codependency is 9 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 1: a word that gets thrown around a lot in the 10 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 1: self help space, but it's also incredibly misunderstood, and a 11 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: lot of us don't really understand the pattern of behaviors 12 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: it describes. We also tend to believe that we would 13 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: be really good at recognizing codependency. When we see it, 14 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: we think of someone who lacks boundaries around others, who 15 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: is incredibly emotionally sometimes physically dependent on other people. But 16 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: what about those situations when codependency doesn't look like the 17 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: codependency that we've typically come to expect. What happens when 18 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:17,759 Speaker 1: it looks like being the person that others always come 19 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: to when they're in trouble, always being the one to 20 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 1: make group plans organize travel, divvy up the check, never 21 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: having a minute for yourself or feeling very exhausted by 22 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:34,399 Speaker 1: everyone else's emotions needs preferences. Could that also be codependency? 23 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: We tend to really reward and praise this kind of 24 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: self sacrificing and giving behavior, and we see it as selfless. 25 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: But are we really just trying to control a situation? 26 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: Do we just feel more secure when we are in charge. 27 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: All of this indicates something called high functioning codependency, which 28 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: is a more invisible form of codependency really common amongst overgiving, 29 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: over extending individuals. And I want to talk about it 30 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: today because it is a concept that has just fascinated me, 31 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: and to talk about it, I want to welcome on 32 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: the psychotherapist and the boundary expert Terry Cole, who discovered 33 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: this phenomenon and who talks about it a lot to 34 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: people worldwide. So Terry, welcome to the show. 35 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 2: Oh thanks for having me. 36 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 1: I'm really really excited. Can you give a little intro 37 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 1: tell people who you are before we dive into my questions. 38 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 2: For you today. Sure, I am a psychotherapist and a 39 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 2: relationship expert. I'm a boundary expert communication I have been 40 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 2: doing this for twenty seven years. I am the author 41 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 2: of a book called Boundary Boss, and I have a 42 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 2: new book that's coming out in October. Who actually this 43 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,639 Speaker 2: drips on the eleventh, So on the fifteenth of this month, 44 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 2: called too Much a guide to break in the cycle 45 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 2: of high functioning codependency. So I'm really an expert in 46 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 2: female empowerment, Like, that's really what my dealer is. I 47 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 2: was a talent age negotiating contracts for supermodels and celebrities 48 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:07,079 Speaker 2: before I became a psychotherapist. So I left this career 49 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 2: that nobody really understood why I was leaving that career. 50 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:13,799 Speaker 2: My father was like, hello, what are you doing? You're 51 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 2: going to become a social Like what, Hello, why are 52 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 2: you doing that? And it's interesting when you have a 53 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 2: different career before becoming a therapist. But I was motivated 54 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,079 Speaker 2: by my own experience in therapy. I just couldn't even 55 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 2: believe how much you could change your own life, and 56 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:34,519 Speaker 2: that it really did not matter what cards I was dealt, 57 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 2: like that shit did not determine the hand I was 58 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 2: going to play in life. I decided I don't like 59 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 2: that hand. I don't even like the fucking game. I'm 60 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 2: not even playing this game. I'm making up an entirely 61 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 2: new game, which is what I did. But I was 62 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 2: able to see that possibility because of my own personal 63 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 2: evolution and therapy. And then even though I had this fancy, 64 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 2: very shiny career that everyone thought was amazing and I 65 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 2: was making a ton of cash, and I was in Hollywood, 66 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 2: you know, this was New York in LA I was 67 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 2: by coastal. It's like I had. It was fancy, but 68 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 2: I wasn't happy, and you just get to a point 69 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 2: where you can't, Like I just could no longer deny 70 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 2: that the only thing I cared about was the mental 71 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 2: health of the models. I was like, you need to 72 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 2: change careers, dude, because you don't even want to be 73 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 2: here anymore doing this. But I really wanted to help people, 74 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 2: and so I was in my early thirties when I 75 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:27,919 Speaker 2: decided to become a psychotherapist, and I've been doing that 76 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:29,159 Speaker 2: for twenty seven years. 77 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,919 Speaker 1: That is an incredible story, just incredible, and honestly, it 78 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: is very indicative of a calling. It's just so clear 79 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 1: to me when you're explaining that, it's like, oh this, yeah, 80 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: it wasn't the right fit for you, because there was 81 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: a high thing that obviously maybe your soul, your personality 82 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: was calling you to And now you've done some incredible, 83 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: incredible work in this space. What initially so you wrote 84 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,919 Speaker 1: this incredible book on boundaries, which really I would recommend. 85 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 1: You're also YouTube channel, and I was reading some of 86 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 1: the comments on a video that you did around boundaries, 87 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 1: and the amount of people who are like wow, like 88 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,679 Speaker 1: my eyes are suddenly opened to an entirely new reality. 89 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: I think that is the power of talking about mental health, 90 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: talking about psychology, embracing therapy. What drew you to codependency 91 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: in the same way that you were initially drawn into 92 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: this space? 93 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 2: The reason I'll just share quickly, like why did I 94 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 2: come up with high functioning codependency? 95 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 1: Right? 96 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 2: Why? What was there not enough on codependency? Well, the 97 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 2: answer is there wasn't and it wasn't the right stuff 98 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 2: for my clients. So what I saw over and over 99 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 2: again is that I would have I have these baller 100 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 2: women who are CFOs, I mean international pop star like, 101 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 2: you know, people who are crushing the game of life, 102 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 2: and not all and then some are stay at home 103 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 2: moms which are amazing too, right, and not everyone had 104 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 2: huge careers, but a lot did. And I use them 105 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,119 Speaker 2: as an example because so much of the time people 106 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 2: will look at someone who's the CFO of a company 107 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 2: I'm making two point five million dollars a year and 108 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 2: be like, obviously they have it all together. And yet 109 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 2: when I would say to any one of those people, hey, 110 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 2: what you're describing in your relationship is a codependent pattern. 111 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying, they would immediately reject it and 112 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:24,600 Speaker 2: be like, yeah, lady, I'm not dependent on squad. Everybody's 113 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 2: dependent on me. I'm making all the money, I'm making 114 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 2: all the moves, I'm controlling all the people. I'm managing 115 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 2: everything in the home, I'm managing all the kids, I'm 116 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 2: my family of origin, I'm organizing all the shit. So 117 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 2: they couldn't see. So I realized, Oh, my clients don't 118 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 2: know what codependancy is. So what happened is they were 119 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 2: stuck in the old school melody baby codependent. No more, 120 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 2: you have to be enabling an alcoholic in order to 121 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 2: be a codependent, and that just is not accurate. It 122 00:06:55,480 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 2: just isn't true, you know. So when I added functioning 123 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 2: to go dependency and explain to my clients what it is. 124 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 2: When you are overly invested in the feeling states, the 125 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 2: outcomes right, the relationships, the finances, the feelings, all of 126 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 2: it of the people in your life, to the detriment 127 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 2: of your own internal peace right. And we need that 128 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 2: caveat because it's not the same. Of course, we're all 129 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 2: invested in the people we love being happy. Obviously, we're 130 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 2: like normal nice people. When you're a high functioning codependent, 131 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 2: it's more than that. It's like we feel compelled to 132 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 2: take it on. We feel actually responsible for other people's 133 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 2: feeling states and their outcomes and at its You know, 134 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 2: when I added the high functioning to the definition, my clients, 135 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 2: all of them, without shame, raise their hands saying it's me. 136 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 2: I'm the problem. It's me. Not to quote Taylor, but 137 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 2: I will. I will put interested you know what I mean. 138 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 2: Though we're they felt like, yeah, that's true. I am overfunctioning, 139 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 2: I am overgiving. I do do more than my share. 140 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 2: I am doing all the emotional labor in my home. 141 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 2: And I am pissed because that's the thing. You could 142 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 2: do that for a long time. Sooner or later, that 143 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 2: shade is a one way take it to bitter land, Like, yeah, 144 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 2: there's only so long you can do it, you know 145 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 2: what I mean. 146 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: Absolutely, And it was interesting when I was looking into this, 147 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: where it's just how much I resonated with this concept 148 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: where you get into this mindset of being like, I'm 149 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: so I'm I'm giving so much, but you realize that 150 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,839 Speaker 1: actually all that you're allowing in that process of giving, 151 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: actually you're just allowing boundaries to be crossed for the 152 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: sake of others, and you don't realize that actually you 153 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: are assuming that you are giving people everything for everything 154 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: for them, and that you are doing what's best for them, 155 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: but actually they would be better off if you had 156 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 1: stronger boundaries. They would actually be better off if you 157 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: were more able to not just say no, but to 158 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: have like entire systems in place in the first place, 159 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: and expectations around what they could come to you for 160 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: what you were able to do the time you needed 161 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: for yourself. And as you said, when you add that 162 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: high functioning component, I think that also reduces some of 163 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: the perhaps stigma around codependency, that codependency is only about 164 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: people who just want to spend a lot of time 165 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: with each other, or only about people who enable substance use. 166 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: It's actually not the case, it shows up in a 167 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 1: lot of vary As you said, high achieving women, high 168 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: achieving individuals who are perhaps using codependency as a way 169 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: to stay secure and stay in control of other people's 170 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 1: feelings and therefore their own feelings. So what are some 171 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: of the typical indicators. If you were talking to a 172 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: therapy client and you said to them, well, you know, 173 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: I think that functioning cardependency is something that you might 174 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: relate to. What would you describe to them? What kind 175 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 1: of individual would you describe to them? 176 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:10,559 Speaker 2: Well? I think yes, I would describe to them, which 177 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 2: I would describe to you, the traits, and then we 178 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 2: would hit the behaviors, and then we would hit the costs, 179 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,959 Speaker 2: and then we could hit what you can do about it? Right, 180 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 2: how we can change it? So let's do it in 181 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 2: that order, shall we? 182 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 1: Yes? Please? 183 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 2: Traits, feeling responsible for fixing other people's problems, giving till 184 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 2: it hurts, right, going above and beyond, even when you're 185 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 2: not asked to, And a lot of times, a lot 186 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 2: of the shit I was doing my twenties, nobody was asking, 187 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 2: and I still felt underappreciated for it. I always ready 188 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 2: to jump into damage control mode, like at the ready 189 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 2: for any crisis. We are the friend that you want 190 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 2: to be in the foxhole with because we're good in 191 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 2: a crisis. A kind of being a little judge of 192 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 2: others because deep down we really kind of think we 193 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 2: know what they should be doing, or a little bit 194 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 2: like if Betty had just listened to me and broken 195 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 2: up with that idiot six months ago, she wouldn't be 196 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 2: crying right now. We can get a little self righteous, 197 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 2: getting frustrated and angry when other people don't take our 198 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 2: grade a advice, feeling exhausted, resemful, bitter, burnt out. So 199 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 2: those are traits behaviors well, auto advice giving, just giving 200 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 2: unsolicited advice to any and all who will listen, being 201 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 2: overly self sacrificing. Again, as you just kind of described, 202 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 2: like doing all the things for other people, auto accommodating. 203 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 2: So I want to talk about this concept that I 204 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 2: also originated because it was something that I suffered from. 205 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 2: I was like, I cannot be the only person where 206 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 2: this is happening. So it was a Saturday. I was 207 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:48,839 Speaker 2: in my salon in New York City and it was 208 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 2: super busy, and I normally don't go on Saturday because 209 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 2: its like a zoo in there, but I had to go. 210 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 2: And I'm sitting there and as busy as hell, and 211 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:56,839 Speaker 2: I'm laying in a sink. I've got my hair mask 212 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 2: on my hair, and now the sink traffic is started 213 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 2: to back up, and every time another person is standing 214 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 2: there with a towel around their head, waiting or whatever, 215 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 2: I'm getting more and more anxious because here I am 216 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 2: taking up a sink, but like nobody's doing anything to me, right, 217 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 2: I'm just sitting here. I could be sitting somewhere else 218 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 2: with letting this masks it. So anyway, I call over 219 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 2: the assistant and say, hey, I could move, you know, 220 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 2: And of course she's looking at me like, no shit, lady, 221 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 2: I know you could move, but I don't need you 222 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 2: to because I do this every Saturday. I mean, she 223 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 2: was nice, she was like, we're good, okay. And I 224 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 2: had this realization. I was like, this is how you 225 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 2: are everywhere toir. You're so dialed into your external environment 226 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 2: it feels like you are responsible for right. I felt 227 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 2: responsible for the sink flow for no good reason, seeing 228 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 2: as how I was a customer as well. And I 229 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 2: actually just this is only five years ago, and I 230 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:58,719 Speaker 2: actually put it on I put it on YouTube, right. 231 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 2: I just did it like a quickly video and it 232 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 2: went totally viral and people were just like, oh my god, 233 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 2: that is me. So auto accommodating is when you basically 234 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 2: see a need in your environment and you just want 235 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:12,439 Speaker 2: to jump in and vix it. You just want to 236 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 2: jump in and help you just you know. And again 237 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 2: a lot of people will say to me online, I mean, 238 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 2: I'm just being nice, Like what's wrong with being nice? 239 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 2: And I'm like, here's the thing. If you can't not 240 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 2: do it, you're not being nice. It is a compulsion. 241 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: Oh wow, A bit of a truth bumb that. 242 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 2: Right, Which is why the way that I walk you 243 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 2: through it in the book and the way I walk 244 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 2: you through it in my community is that we get 245 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 2: into recovery from high functioning codependency, but we don't get 246 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 2: cured because this is a discipline. To change these behaviors 247 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 2: takes time. You know. Other behaviors are anticipatory planning. You 248 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 2: know you're going to be with people. I tell a 249 00:13:58,000 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 2: story in the book about my friend who is dating 250 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 2: this person. It was just such a just such a jerk. 251 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 2: I hated this person. But anyway, but we were going 252 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 2: away so that her partner was coming, and I this 253 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 2: was someone who just kicked up my codependancy hardcore because 254 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 2: they were so difficult and then they torture my friend 255 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 2: and it just was like a nightmare being with them. 256 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 2: But anyway, I would make sure that we're you know, 257 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 2: if there were different rooms to stay, and that they 258 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 2: stayed in the nicest room so that he didn't complain. 259 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 2: And I would make sure that whatever he drank, we 260 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 2: would have that booze that Like, there was all these 261 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 2: things and I realized later, I was like, why just 262 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 2: don't go away with them? You don't like this guy? Like, 263 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 2: but that's what anticipatory plan is. You might do it 264 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 2: with family, right, two people who don't like each other. 265 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 2: You're like, well, I won't set them near each other. 266 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 2: Instead of that's very HFC to try to we're manipulating 267 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 2: and we're like puppet mastering what's happening, as opposed to 268 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 2: having a conversation with the family members saying, hey, if 269 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 2: you two can't figure it out, neither one of you 270 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 2: rore invited to Christmas? Right, Like why not you know, 271 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 2: talking true, just having a straight conversation. But as an HFC. 272 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 2: Usually we don't do that. We're all good girls, we're 273 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 2: all you know, we all want to be nice. We 274 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 2: don't want people to think that we're not nice. Other 275 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 2: behaviors is just overfunctioning, and the overfunctioning and underfunctioning dynamic 276 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 2: is super common with hfc's where I say that I 277 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 2: could take in my twenties, I could take a perfectly 278 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 2: capable boyfriend and turn him into an underfunction in two 279 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 2: weeks or less. 280 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, in the sense that you could take on all 281 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: of his responsibilities. You could plan the dates, you could 282 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: plan his life, what laundering he needs to be doing, 283 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: when he needs to call his mom, whatever it is. 284 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 2: Yes, maybe not down to that minutia, but ye, like was, 285 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 2: there wasn't room for them. Because the mantras of HFCs 286 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 2: are like I got it is one major mantra. We 287 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 2: just can't stop being like I got it good, to 288 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 2: talk good, I got it right, because we are so 289 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 2: capable though so a lot of times we do got it. 290 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 2: But just because you ken doesn't mean you should all 291 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 2: the time, you know, or another mantra is it has 292 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 2: to be me. It's like this belief that other people 293 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 2: won't do it as well, won't do it the way 294 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 2: we want it done, won't do it in a timely fashion, 295 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 2: so it's just easier to do it myself. Is a 296 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 2: lot of what we're saying in our minds. So what 297 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 2: is the cost of all this? Do you want to 298 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 2: talk about that? 299 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: I want to talk about that, but firstly I want 300 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: to just quickly ask this question because before we get 301 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: into the cost, I really want to know what's at 302 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: the root of this because I'm listening to you talk 303 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: about this and a few things have come out for me. 304 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: The first one is maybe an element of perfectionism. Like 305 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 1: you said, there is a sense that the only way 306 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: that you can fully control an outcome is if you 307 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: are beside every single behavior, action, everything that led you 308 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: leads you to the place, Or the only way to 309 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: control whether Christmas is going to go well is if 310 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: you carefully curate the seating plan, you make sure everyone happy. 311 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: So maybe it's perfectionism. Then I'm thinking maybe it's control. 312 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 1: But then also like an element of people pleasing, right, 313 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: I like what you said before around is it really 314 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: kindness or is it a compulsion? Look, are you actually 315 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: at your core a nice person? Or can you just 316 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: not fathom the idea of people not liking you or 317 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 1: things not happening in the way that makes you feel 318 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: safe and secure. So what is really at the root 319 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:28,880 Speaker 1: of this? Is it a combination of these three things 320 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 1: or is there another ingredient that maybe I'm missing as 321 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 1: well well. 322 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 2: I think you are very astute because those ingredients, I mean, 323 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 2: the foundation of all codependency, but especially high functioning codependency 324 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 2: is control. It is an overt or covert bid to 325 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 2: control other people's outcomes. We just don't want our friend 326 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 2: marrying the stupid idiot. We don't. We want to do 327 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:55,959 Speaker 2: everything we can to help our see the light. We 328 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 2: don't want our partner getting fired, so we will you know, not, 329 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 2: we will make more money and let them flounder, like 330 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:05,400 Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like there's we will overfunction 331 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 2: to protect other people from feeling bad. Of course, ultimately 332 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 2: it makes them feel worse, so it doesn't really work 333 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 2: in that way. So yes, over and underfunctioning. Yes, perfectionism, 334 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 2: but control is such a big part of it, and 335 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 2: because it has such a negative connotation, people don't want 336 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 2: to identify with it. But that is absolutely what it is. 337 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 2: We could, you know, you could call it whatever the 338 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:31,199 Speaker 2: hell you want to call it, but that that is 339 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 2: what it is. We want to control other people's outcomes. 340 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 2: But in the process of being so driven unconsciously, so 341 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 2: much of this is unconscious. It's like there's so much 342 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 2: self abandonment that goes on because we just want peace 343 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 2: as agypcies, we just don't We just want there to 344 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 2: be peace in the valley. We just want everyone to 345 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 2: be happy, right, we just don't want problems, and so 346 00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 2: that kind of piece like we won't say anything. You know, 347 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 2: what's her name, sheral Ridchardson has a great quote that 348 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 2: it's like, you know, not speaking up to keep the 349 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 2: peace or of war within ourselves. 350 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: That is spot on, spot on. I've got another question 351 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 1: for that, actually, sure, because you're staying control and I 352 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 1: feel like this is my own personal therapy session, right 353 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 1: because control is my my big problem. Yes, is there 354 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: have you found that there is an overlap or maybe 355 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 1: a correlation between people with high functioning codependency and those 356 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,959 Speaker 1: of us who are eldest daughters or people who are 357 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: the eldest sibling who have perhaps been socialized in conditioned 358 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 1: to take on all this responsibility the same way that 359 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 1: maybe a mother would or maybe someone in charge of 360 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: the family would have you found that there is an overlap, 361 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: maybe a correlation between people with high functioning coredependency and 362 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: those of us who are eldest daughters. 363 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 2: Ye, without a doubt, a lot of eldest daughter syndrome, 364 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 2: but also a lot of good girl syndrome. Yeah, so 365 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 2: in any any place that you are in the family system, 366 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 2: because if you think about family systems, right, there's all 367 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 2: these different roles that people play, and everyone was from 368 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 2: some kind of a disordered family system. I mean who wasn't. 369 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 2: So if my family system, my father was a high 370 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 2: functioning alcoholic, so you know, had a great job, a 371 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 2: great career, retired at fifty like I mean, you know, 372 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 2: did well, but it doesn't change. You know, how he 373 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 2: managed his emotions was with alcohol, and you know, we 374 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 2: were raised to be good girls and the focus when 375 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 2: you have there are different ways that the family systems are. 376 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 2: In a family system where there is addiction of any kind, 377 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,199 Speaker 2: most people in the family system are organizing around that person. 378 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 2: So in a healthy family system, it is child focused. 379 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 2: I don't mean child obsessed, I just mean child focused, 380 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 2: where the activities are around what the children need. In 381 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 2: a more dysfunctional system, the activities are around it. Could 382 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 2: be a designated patient, right, it could be someone with 383 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 2: mental health, could be someone who's physically unwell, could be 384 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 2: an abuser that people organize around. But you learn how 385 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,880 Speaker 2: to go along to get along. Nobody needs to send 386 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 2: you like a note when you're seven to figure out 387 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 2: how to avoid being rejected, how to avoid being abused, 388 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 2: like you immediately know it intuitively, how to be helpful, 389 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 2: how to go make mommy's next drink, even if mommy 390 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 2: is an alcoholic, because you're a part of the solution 391 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 2: and you don't want her to be mad or to 392 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,919 Speaker 2: judge you, or to reject you. So a lot of 393 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 2: times those things make a difference too. I grew up 394 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 2: as the hero child family system. So that's the one 395 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 2: where everyone can agree that that person is amazing, no 396 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,640 Speaker 2: matter what else is going on. But so you sort 397 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 2: of have it on your shoulders to like make the 398 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 2: family look good. Right, Yes, everyone can agree that you're good, 399 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 2: you're a winner, you know what I mean. But none 400 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:24,880 Speaker 2: of these roles are free. So all of the family systems, 401 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 2: whether you're the scapegoat, whether you're you know what I mean, 402 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,160 Speaker 2: all those roles play a part, but I find that 403 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 2: a lot of hfc's are eldest daughters or first generation, 404 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 2: or their parents were first generation. You know, there's a 405 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 2: lot of that too, because there's so much culture. I mean, 406 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 2: how do we have a downloaded HFC blueprint all of 407 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 2: us do, which is basically your relational blueprint. And this 408 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 2: is made up of what you learned in your family 409 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 2: of origin, the country you grew up in, the culture, 410 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 2: the society, your role in the family system. All of 411 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 2: these things sort of coalesce come together, and this makes 412 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 2: up the unconscious material that is in your mind that 413 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 2: tells you this is the way I should relate in 414 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 2: the world, whether it's with the people at church, whether 415 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,400 Speaker 2: it's with my partner, whether it's with my friends, whether 416 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 2: it's with my cousins, whatever, right we have how it 417 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 2: should be type of thing. And part of this process, 418 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:25,679 Speaker 2: I'm getting healthier and I walk people through it in 419 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 2: Boundary Boss, and we also walk through it in too Much, 420 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 2: in different with different lenses, right, because in too Much 421 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 2: we're really looking at what did you learn about the 422 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 2: way you're supposed to relate to other people in specific situations? 423 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 2: And the world though, because with hfc's it's different than 424 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 2: sort of regular codependency because we can get we can 425 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 2: become codependent with people we don't even freaking know barely, 426 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 2: like because we're concerned about others, we can sort of 427 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 2: get codependent with our environment and people we meet list 428 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 2: I did, and I see this in my clients as well. 429 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: Oh I'm just listening to you talk about this, but 430 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,120 Speaker 1: you can see me just nodding my head, being like yeah, 431 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: tick tick tick. And it's interesting what you said around 432 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,719 Speaker 1: it being almost wide and to our subconscious or unconscious, 433 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: especially as children, but also coming to us almost as 434 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 1: a blueprint. We all have this capacity, and of course 435 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: the blueprint that we all have as children comes from 436 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: a place of survival. That's why we are born to 437 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 1: be particularly accommodating to the needs of a caregiver or 438 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 1: a parent, because we are reliant on them. It's why 439 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:41,360 Speaker 1: we are born to born in being able to chameleon, 440 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: being able to please others. It's all survival. So is 441 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: that also where high functioning codependency comes from is at 442 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 1: some point you've learnt a pattern of behavior that's made 443 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: life easier for you by allowing you to be more 444 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: in control. Is that also something that you see a 445 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: lot do. 446 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 2: And the thing is it's in a way, it's an 447 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 2: illusion of control, but it does make sense. And along 448 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 2: the same lines, if we're talking about childhood, you might 449 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 2: have a lot of people being parentified in childhood. So 450 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 2: there's two different ways of being parentified. One is emotional. 451 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 2: If you have a parent who talked to you like 452 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 2: you were a grown up, told you things about themselves 453 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 2: that wasn't appropriate, or shared adult burdens with you about 454 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,160 Speaker 2: we don't have the money to pay the lights or whatever. 455 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 2: You know, that's one way. It's almost like the emotional parentification. 456 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 2: And then there's the actual parentification of the physical where 457 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,400 Speaker 2: you might be making dinner for younger siblings, you might 458 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 2: be expected to clean the house. You might like anyone 459 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 2: who is parentified, and if you had addicted parents or 460 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 2: alcoholic parents or parents with mental health challenges, you might 461 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 2: have been like the only sort of adult in the 462 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 2: room even though you were ten. So what does this do? 463 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 2: What does it create? It creates high functioning codependency and 464 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 2: the abilities like imagine if you're cooking dinner at nine, 465 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,239 Speaker 2: you're capable as hell. Imagine how capable you are by 466 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 2: nineteen twenty nine thirty nine. It's like there's not anything 467 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,919 Speaker 2: you can't figure out. And when you have a childhood 468 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 2: like that, right, it makes you very, very committed to 469 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 2: figuring it out because the alternative is feeling out of control, 470 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 2: is feeling victimized, is being victimized. But a lot of 471 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 2: those things that were adaptive in childhood become maladaptive in adulthood, 472 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 2: so we have to revisit them and go, does this 473 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 2: make sense? Should I be doing all of these things 474 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 2: for all of these people? Is this in my highest 475 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 2: and best drist? Do I have the bandwidth to do 476 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 2: this rather than being on autopilot? 477 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: Yeah? I think this is a great transition into talking 478 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: about the cost, because you really introduced this to us. 479 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: So what does this cost us individually but also in 480 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: terms of our relationships as well. When we think we 481 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: might be helping someone, we think we might be this loving, 482 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 1: giving person. I have a feeling that you're going to 483 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,880 Speaker 1: tell us that maybe that isn't always the most beneficial thing. 484 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true, because here's the thing. I'll tell you 485 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 2: a quick story and I share it in the book, 486 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 2: But this is what actually changed my life when it 487 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 2: comes to codependency and high function codependency. In my twenties, 488 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 2: one of my sisters was in a bad situation with 489 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 2: someone who was doing a crack addict and she was 490 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:46,640 Speaker 2: an active alcoholic and they were living in a house 491 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,119 Speaker 2: in the woods with no running water and no electricity, 492 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 2: and he was abusive. So, I mean, for an HFC, 493 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 2: it's like a five alarm fire every day, and I 494 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 2: was obsessed with how am I going to save her 495 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,440 Speaker 2: from this? To hell? You know, like, what am I 496 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 2: going to do? So I was crying to my therapist 497 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 2: and bowing my eyes out and saying, you know, Bev, 498 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,679 Speaker 2: I've done everything. What am I going to do? And 499 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 2: she said, Terry, let me ask you something. What makes 500 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 2: you think you know what your sister needs to learn 501 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 2: in this lifetime and how she needs to learn it. 502 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 2: But do you know what's happening for you and all this? 503 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 2: And I was like, obviously no, I do not, Please 504 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,880 Speaker 2: clue me in. And she said, Terry, you've worked really 505 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 2: hard to create a harmonious life. Your sister's dumpster fire 506 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 2: is really messing with your piece. You want your pain, 507 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 2: you want to you want that to be fixed because 508 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 2: ultimately you want your pain to end. She is not wrong. Yeah, 509 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 2: that is true. 510 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so do you think it was an element 511 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 1: of like in your attempts to soothe yourself and to 512 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: not to say eliminate, but to fix this like stress 513 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: up for you, Because of course, when it comes to 514 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: very close relationships, you feel it someone else pain, especially 515 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: as a sibling, especially as someone in your family, there 516 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: is a bond there that is incredibly otherworldly. Do you 517 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: think that actually the relationship you have with your sister 518 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: deteriorated or did it get to a point of her 519 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: not listening to you? Because I've had this before with 520 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: people where and I've learnt this with friends where it's 521 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: like you can't tell someone to just break up with 522 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: their boyfriend or break up with their girlfriend or their partner, 523 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: because all that's going to happen is they'll just stop 524 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 1: telling you the bad stuff. So you're actually not helping them, 525 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: and you're in your attempts to fix it, like you're 526 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: actually further isolating them. What ended up happening with her 527 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: in that situation, if you want to share, of course. 528 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I do. I've wrote about it in the book, 529 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 2: so I've already shared it so noble. I said to 530 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 2: my therapist, so what do I do then? Like, what 531 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 2: are my options now? And she said, Terry, you need 532 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 2: boundaries because I remember it was my twenties and I 533 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,040 Speaker 2: was the boundaryless wonder. So I had no boundaries. And 534 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 2: I didn't even know I could have boundaries with my sister. 535 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 2: I had no idea. I was like, what I could 536 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 2: be a good sister and do that. She said, listen, 537 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 2: you don't have to let her talk to you about 538 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 2: this guy, but you can be there if she needs you. 539 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 2: So I talked to my sister. I said, hey, I 540 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 2: can't talk about this with you. It's so painful and 541 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 2: disruptive for my life, but I love you and when 542 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 2: and if you ever really want to get out, I'll 543 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 2: always be your person. I'll always be your person. And 544 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 2: she really understood. She was like, you know what, I 545 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 2: get it okay. And we talked a few times in 546 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 2: nine months, and then she called me and said I'm ready. 547 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 2: Are you still my person? And I was like, oh, yes, 548 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 2: I am, got in my car, went and picked her up. 549 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 2: And the most important aspect of this story is that 550 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 2: by doing that, my sister was ready to change what 551 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 2: wasn't working in her life instead of her youngest sister 552 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 2: being the hero in her story, which is what we're 553 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 2: doing when we insert ourselves, when we can't stop telling 554 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 2: people what to do, we're literally centering ourselves in that 555 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,239 Speaker 2: person's problem. It's so God, that was the hardest thing 556 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 2: for me to like wrap my own mind around. I 557 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 2: was like, oh, is that what I'm doing. That's terrible. 558 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 2: But she ended up finally coming to it, she got sober, 559 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 2: she got back to school. My husband and I helped 560 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 2: her in an appropriate way. But she is the hero 561 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 2: of her own story. It's not about me, It's about her. 562 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 2: And I loved her enough to tolerate the way that 563 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 2: felt right, because that's what love is. Love is an 564 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 2: auto fixing other people. Love is being like, I'll be 565 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 2: in the fox hole with you, even when you're suffering, 566 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 2: and even when I think you could end your suffering 567 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 2: by ending this relationship. But she wasn't ready, just because 568 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 2: I was ready for her to do it, and it stuck. 569 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 2: She never went back with him, She never got into 570 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 2: another relationship like that. And that was This is decades ago. 571 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 2: You know, she's gone on to have a career. It's 572 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 2: like she did that herself. And we rob people of 573 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 2: their sovereignty when and their dignity when we're endlessly thinking 574 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 2: we know what they should be doing, so what can 575 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 2: we do instead? 576 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: Right? 577 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 2: The cost to us is great to burn out health, bitterness, 578 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 2: living life light is what I call it. When we're 579 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 2: constantly obsessed and you know, in our minds about other 580 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 2: people and other things, we're not fully present in our 581 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 2: own life, and life hits different when you're kind of 582 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 2: only half here. It's like half as juicy as it 583 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 2: should be, half as amazing as it should. 584 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 1: Love that one. 585 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 2: You know what I mean? 586 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I do. 587 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 2: It's so true. And we're not fully self expressed because 588 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 2: we're not focusing on us, we're focusing on others, And 589 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 2: then we have the cost to the other people their 590 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 2: autonomy right, not accepting them where they are. People become projects. 591 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 2: Nobody likes that. They do not like it, and I 592 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 2: hate it when I feel like someone thinks I'm I'm 593 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 2: a project. I want to punch them. I'm like, hey man, 594 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 2: look at my life. Does it seem like I need 595 00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 2: your advice? I don't. Please stop giving it to me. 596 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 2: It's very dehumanizing, which is not what we're trying to do, 597 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 2: so what can we do instead? And when you guys 598 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 2: were listening, we're like, okay, great, thank you, I'm identified 599 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 2: Now what can I do? Well, let's hope that you've 600 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 2: raised your awareness through this conversation that we're having. You 601 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 2: need to take a look at your boundaries. And when 602 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 2: we're HFC is a lot of times we're the ones 603 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 2: trampling on other people's boundaries inadvertently we're not meaning to. 604 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 2: But when you give someone advice who hasn't asked you 605 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 2: for advice, when you just transfer money into someone's account 606 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 2: because you're worried they're not going to make their rent, right. 607 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 2: I had a client who was paying rent for like 608 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 2: thirty eight year olds on or whatever it was. Oh, 609 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 2: I was like, you know, She's like, well, just in 610 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 2: case he doesn't have enough, And I'm like, this is 611 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 2: what I think is happening. Here's the subtext of that. 612 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 2: Your son who's mismanaging is money comes to you and says, 613 00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 2: I don't think I can do it. I don't think 614 00:33:58,560 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 2: i'm going to make it. I don't know how to 615 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 2: do that. I think I'm a loser. You giving him 616 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 2: money monthly? What are you saying I agree with you. 617 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 2: I agree. I think you're a loser too. I don't 618 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 2: think you're going to do it either. Wow. 619 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:12,799 Speaker 1: And did she stop doing it? 620 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 2: Yes? But the thing is she changed it. I was like, 621 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 2: the conversation isn't about cutting him off. The conversation is 622 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:24,880 Speaker 2: about believing in him. I have faith that you are resourceful, 623 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 2: and I know that you're going to figure this out. 624 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,360 Speaker 2: And I don't think i've been helping you. And I'm sorry, 625 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 2: but I honestly do believe in you, which is why 626 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 2: I'm not going to be giving you any more money. 627 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 2: You're thirty eight, you have a job, You're grown up, 628 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,720 Speaker 2: and I want to respect that. I want to respect 629 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 2: your autonomy, you know, instead of giving the auto advice 630 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 2: stuff too for people who are really identified, because I 631 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 2: feel like most people, if you're a loving person, you 632 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,839 Speaker 2: just think that's a part of it. So instead of 633 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 2: immediately giving advice or having ideas or suggestions, I want 634 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 2: you to just start to raise your awareness about how 635 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:04,880 Speaker 2: often you want to give advice, right, how often you 636 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 2: want to add your two cents? And instead of that, 637 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,879 Speaker 2: if your friend comes to you with a problem, even 638 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 2: if you eventually give them your two cents. The first 639 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 2: thing you're going to say is Okay, before we get 640 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 2: into it, you tell me what you think you should 641 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,080 Speaker 2: do because you're in a situation. Nobody's gout is better 642 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,399 Speaker 2: than yours about this because it's your life and I'm 643 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 2: here too. You want to brainstorm it, you want to 644 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,440 Speaker 2: spitball at whatever you want to do. But it's like 645 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 2: putting the emphasis back on them because it's the truth, 646 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 2: like you actually don't know what they should do. You 647 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 2: can share experiences you had if you want to later, 648 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 2: but I feel like it can't be the first step, 649 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 2: the first stop on the bus, you know what I mean, 650 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,880 Speaker 2: because now we're co opting that conversation and bringing it 651 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 2: back to our grade a advice instead of saying, so, 652 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 2: how do you feel about that? And then what happened? Well, 653 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 2: what was that like? And then what did they say? Like, 654 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,799 Speaker 2: there's a way to ask expansive questions, and it's the 655 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 2: most loving thing in the world to give people your 656 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 2: undivided attention. 657 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: Especially if it's not undivided attention with the purpose of 658 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,280 Speaker 1: then providing advice, you know what I mean. I feel 659 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,880 Speaker 1: like that's really what I'm getting from this is allow 660 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 1: people to show you that they're capable. I feel like 661 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: so often we listen to someone's problems and we're concocting 662 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 1: exactly what we think that they should do and what 663 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 1: we would do and how we can help. And have 664 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 1: you ever had one of those situations where someone is 665 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,719 Speaker 1: just ranting, very upset, and you go to give them 666 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:42,800 Speaker 1: advice and you can just see they just really don't 667 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: want it. They really are not interested. Actually what they 668 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 1: want is, as you said, for someone to listen to them. 669 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:51,759 Speaker 1: And I'm listening to this and thinking about situations with 670 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 1: my friends, and I'm thinking about situations with my sisters 671 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,240 Speaker 1: where I have just jumped in and been like, okay, 672 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,280 Speaker 1: so you know, I just pay for that if you want, 673 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 1: you know, if you're worried about you know, my sister 674 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 1: was talking to me the other day and I was like, well, 675 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:06,840 Speaker 1: if you're worried about that, like, I'll just send you 676 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 1: some money. What became really clear to me, and that 677 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: as well, was that we could have gone on and 678 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: talked for like another twenty minutes. But also because I 679 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,799 Speaker 1: just immediately offered that solution, I actually didn't really hear 680 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 1: how she was feeling and correct my initial reaction to 681 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: just jump in and be like, oh my gosh, I 682 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,399 Speaker 1: love you so much, let's fix this. What can I do? 683 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,840 Speaker 1: Maybe that's why you're calling me? I think I realized. 684 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 1: I was like, actually, no, you're calling me just because 685 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 1: you wanted to be heard, not because you wanted to 686 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,239 Speaker 1: be fixed in a way. 687 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:40,279 Speaker 2: That's so good and it's so true, and you're exactly right. 688 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 2: Your insights are so good because you're exactly right. This 689 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:50,440 Speaker 2: behavior high functioning codependent behavior. It limits the intimacy that 690 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 2: we have in our relationships because exactly what you just 691 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 2: described just what we do, so how we know people 692 00:37:57,520 --> 00:37:59,880 Speaker 2: as we go. So if you did know what to do, 693 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 2: what do you think it would be? Or have you 694 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 2: felt like this like when we ask expensive questions, this 695 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 2: is when we learn about people. And another thing that 696 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 2: you can do that is so helpful when you want 697 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 2: to give advice or you're not sure someone's in pain, 698 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 2: and even with your sister, you can always say how 699 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:23,719 Speaker 2: can I best support you right now? When you want 700 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 2: to give advice or you're not sure someone's in pain, 701 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 2: and even with your sister, you can always say, how 702 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 2: can I best support you right now? 703 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:35,840 Speaker 1: And this comes back to the cool foundation of codependency. 704 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 1: You're not enabling them. You're no longer enabling them to 705 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: see you as I know, the cash cow, or see 706 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:45,359 Speaker 1: you as the one who can fix it for them 707 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,600 Speaker 1: or the one who can plan for them. Like you said, 708 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: you know, it's agency. Agency is a gorgeous, gorgeous gift 709 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 1: to give someone trust, agency, faith. 710 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 2: And and your own because the thing is, when we 711 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 2: feel overly responsible for others, our own lives, internal and 712 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:08,360 Speaker 2: external suffer, were exhausted where you can't do it forever, 713 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 2: and people who do I trust me. I see women 714 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:13,760 Speaker 2: coming into my therapy practice in their six or seventh 715 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 2: decade of life and they're like, listen, I checked all 716 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,160 Speaker 2: the boxes. We have money, I'm on a bunch of boards. 717 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 2: The kids all went to ivy leagu schools. Is this 718 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,239 Speaker 2: how I'm supposed to feel? Because wow, it's really not 719 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:31,000 Speaker 2: that awesome and I've they just say like it's empty, 720 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 2: and I'm like, yeah, because nobody friggin knows you. You 721 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,880 Speaker 2: literally built your whole life checking boxes that other people 722 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,919 Speaker 2: told you. Which is the way to go, Always taking 723 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 2: one for the team right, always self sacrificing. No one 724 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 2: even knows you it is so not satisfying. It is 725 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,640 Speaker 2: such a bummer. So I'm so happy that this show 726 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,800 Speaker 2: is for people in their twenties because if you guys 727 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,880 Speaker 2: start now, you won't be in my therapy office in 728 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 2: your sixties. And I can't imagine I'll still be be 729 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,000 Speaker 2: one hundred. So I'm probably not going to be still 730 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 2: be a therapist in a hundred. But do you know 731 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:05,879 Speaker 2: what I mean, Like, there's so much that you can 732 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 2: do now to realize what real love and real support means. 733 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 2: That I'll hang with you even when it's hard, and 734 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 2: even when you don't know, I'll stay in the fox 735 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,000 Speaker 2: hole with you, even through the uncertainty that makes me 736 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 2: so uncomfortable, because I love you, Because that's what devotion is, 737 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,920 Speaker 2: That's what love is. Is that I will tolerate my 738 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:35,280 Speaker 2: discomfort to comfort you in a real way, doing something 739 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,239 Speaker 2: that makes you feel comforted, not makes you feel like 740 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:39,440 Speaker 2: a problem I just fixed. 741 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,880 Speaker 1: I think that is the most beautiful conclusion, such a 742 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,480 Speaker 1: beautiful way to summarize it. And again, if you've made 743 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,760 Speaker 1: it this far, you are most likely as well someone 744 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 1: in the twenties or maybe their thirties. I think that 745 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:57,880 Speaker 1: one of the most beautiful things about having this platform 746 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:00,600 Speaker 1: as well and having people like you on is that 747 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,040 Speaker 1: I think about twenty years ago when they were not 748 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:08,440 Speaker 1: these resources, and that's the generation that you now speak to. 749 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:13,240 Speaker 1: And hopefully, as time goes on, we have this psycho education. 750 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,640 Speaker 1: We have this level of self awareness that means that 751 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,680 Speaker 1: you're not going to be fifty or sixty and wondering 752 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,320 Speaker 1: why your relationships are shallow, why you feel so burnt 753 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 1: out while you feel so exhausted by your need for control. 754 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,440 Speaker 1: So even if it's confronting in this moment, think about 755 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,160 Speaker 1: how much time you now have ahead of you to 756 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:38,799 Speaker 1: really rewire your brain towards trust, towards healthy dependency, and 757 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:43,319 Speaker 1: to unloan some of those maladaptive habits that you've picked 758 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:47,840 Speaker 1: up from childhood, from teenage years, from your early twenties exactly. 759 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:52,600 Speaker 2: And I have a super special gift for your listeners 760 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 2: that will help you if they're identify with this. So 761 00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,680 Speaker 2: I have an HFC toolkit for you. So you just 762 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 2: go to Terrycoll dot com forward slash HFC for high 763 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,520 Speaker 2: Functioning Codependent and I'm giving you some lessons in there, 764 00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:08,759 Speaker 2: like simplify and do less It's like a video and 765 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,760 Speaker 2: a pdf. I'm giving you a guided meditation, the power 766 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:16,680 Speaker 2: of no Meditation, and just walking you through things that 767 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:21,680 Speaker 2: you can do to start on this journey of recovering 768 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 2: from high functioning codependency. And that's obviously by the book too, 769 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,000 Speaker 2: but I figured I would give you a free gift 770 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:28,840 Speaker 2: just to get you go. 771 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,160 Speaker 1: I'm going to go check that out and please please 772 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:38,400 Speaker 1: pre order order Terry's book. This conversation has been so enlightening. 773 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,799 Speaker 1: I've already had a look through and it just looks marvelous. 774 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:46,600 Speaker 1: There's quite honestly, nothing else like what you've written that 775 00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:50,480 Speaker 1: I've come across, nothing else that, oh, well, you created 776 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,279 Speaker 1: this term, so a lot of people do not Yeah, 777 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:55,920 Speaker 1: and it's it's just mind blowing to me sometimes that 778 00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:59,839 Speaker 1: you know, it's twenty twenty four and it takes some 779 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,440 Speaker 1: one saying this out loud for thousands of people to 780 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,279 Speaker 1: come out of the woodwork and be able to identify 781 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,759 Speaker 1: themselves and understand themselves more. So. There will be a 782 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,759 Speaker 1: link both to that free gift from Terry, Thank you 783 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:16,600 Speaker 1: so much, and also the book in this episode description. Terry, 784 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:21,160 Speaker 1: you have been an amazing guest, seriously mind blowing. Thank 785 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,480 Speaker 1: you so much for coming on. I really loved this discussion. 786 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,080 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I'm planning to 787 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 2: come by the way to Oh you're in Australia. 788 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:30,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm in Australia. 789 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,239 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, So I think in twenty twenty five, I've 790 00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:35,799 Speaker 2: been doing a whole bunch of interviews and I have 791 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,680 Speaker 2: this group of women who are like, please come, We're 792 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 2: going to do events. So anyway, I think by the 793 00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:42,359 Speaker 2: end of twenty or twenty five, I'm coming. So I'm 794 00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:43,000 Speaker 2: gonna come for you. 795 00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,279 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. I will be their front row, front row. 796 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 1: And Australia is a beautiful place. Everyone knows. That's the 797 00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,319 Speaker 1: reason I haven't left. It's so cautious. They'll be like, 798 00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,120 Speaker 1: get a very warm reception, that's for sure. 799 00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:58,600 Speaker 2: Excellent. Well, thank you so much for having me. 800 00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,000 Speaker 1: I appreciate you, of course, and thank you so much 801 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,920 Speaker 1: for listening. If you've made it this far. As always, 802 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:05,960 Speaker 1: if you have an episode suggestion, you want to get 803 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,000 Speaker 1: in touch, you want to share your thoughts about this episode, 804 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,359 Speaker 1: you can DM me at that psychology podcast. Make sure 805 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,000 Speaker 1: you are following along, give us a five star review 806 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:17,440 Speaker 1: if you, of course feel cool to do so, and 807 00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:19,640 Speaker 1: share with a friend. I've already got three friends in 808 00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:21,440 Speaker 1: mine who I think are going to be getting a 809 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:25,439 Speaker 1: link to this episode in their messages. So until next time, 810 00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,640 Speaker 1: stay safe, stay kind, be gentle to yourself, and we 811 00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:30,120 Speaker 1: will talk very very soon,