WEBVTT - Short Stuff: Scheele's Green

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, and welcome to the short Stuff. I'm Josh, and

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<v Speaker 1>there's Chuck and Dave. Ce's here and Spirit. Jerry's here

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<v Speaker 1>in Spirit, And let's go. Let's start talking about a color,

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<v Speaker 1>a really interesting color.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this is the first of a two part series.

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<v Speaker 1>On color, an accidental series, really, that's right.

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<v Speaker 2>And this one we're gonna be talking about Shields green

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<v Speaker 2>s E H E E L E or Schloss green.

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<v Speaker 2>Schloss is pretty obviously spelled.

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<v Speaker 1>I think, do you know, is that just another name

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<v Speaker 1>for shield or something, or was that Carl Wilhelm Shield's

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<v Speaker 1>hotel name? Like, how did it come to be Schloss

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<v Speaker 1>as well?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, I don't know. I thought you knew.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>I have no idea.

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<v Speaker 1>Actually, well I spilled the beans, Chuck. It is named

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<v Speaker 1>after Carl Wilhelm Shiel, who was the guy who discovered it,

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<v Speaker 1>so it's appropriate that it would be named after him.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right. He was a German Swedish chemist, a pharmaceutical chemist.

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<v Speaker 2>And here's the deal. He created this amazing kind of

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<v Speaker 2>accidentally created this amazing shade of green that kind of

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<v Speaker 2>took the world by storm. But the big problem with

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<v Speaker 2>it is that it killed people. Yeah, it is a

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<v Speaker 2>big problem and it killed that's not funny. I laughed

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<v Speaker 2>because the way I said it.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it happened a long time ago, so you can

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<v Speaker 1>laugh now. But it killed a lot of people in

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<v Speaker 1>some really horrible ways. I was just kidding about laughing

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<v Speaker 1>at misfortune. That's appropriately old anyway.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, tragedy is our comedy is tragedy plus time. Right.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh man, that's great. You should you should market that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I just made it up.

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<v Speaker 1>So yeah, it was a terribly toxic color. Paris Review

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<v Speaker 1>wrote a really interesting article on it, and in it

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<v Speaker 1>they called shields green blisteringly toxic. Yeah, and the thing

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<v Speaker 1>that was toxic about it was arsenic, as we'll see.

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<v Speaker 1>But Carl Wilhelm Shiel, he came up with it supposedly

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<v Speaker 1>almost accidentally, according to Victoria Finley, who's a historian who

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<v Speaker 1>wrote a book called The Brilliant History of Color and Art.

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<v Speaker 1>God blessed Victoria Finley for not using a colon, but

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<v Speaker 1>she said it was almost accidental. I don't know what

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<v Speaker 1>he was doing. But he heated some sodium carbonate, he

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<v Speaker 1>added some arsinious oxide, gave it a good stir, and

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<v Speaker 1>then he added some copper sulfate, and when that happened,

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<v Speaker 1>he found that he had a really, really brilliant green.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, it was brilliant. But he knew that it

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<v Speaker 2>was toxic, and about a year before it was released

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<v Speaker 2>to the public, he, as legend goes, wrote to a

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<v Speaker 2>friend of his and said, Hey, I'm kind of worried

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<v Speaker 2>about this stuff being toxic. And apparently it didn't matter,

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<v Speaker 2>because people went nuts for the stuff. Arsenic had been

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<v Speaker 2>around for a long time. People knew it was poisonous

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<v Speaker 2>because it was a great murder poison for many, many years,

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<v Speaker 2>because it has fairly unspecific symptoms as far as poisoning

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<v Speaker 2>people goes. So up until eighteen thirty when the Marsh

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<v Speaker 2>test was invented by James Marsh, which basically roots out arsenic,

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<v Speaker 2>there was you know, it was a pretty good way

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<v Speaker 2>to kill somebody.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, like you said, I mean you could attribute the

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<v Speaker 1>the symptoms of acute arsenic poisoning to a lot of things.

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<v Speaker 1>You've got vomiting, abdominant pain, diarrhea, I mean, a lot

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<v Speaker 1>over things can do that. Sure, what are you drinking arsenic?

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<v Speaker 1>And then later on you've got numbnessing, tingling of the extremities.

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<v Speaker 1>You could have been like I've been sitting too long,

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<v Speaker 1>maybe muscle cramping and then you die. You go curpplots.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, And that's acute poisoning. The long term exposure

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<v Speaker 2>and we're talking you know, over the order of you know,

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<v Speaker 2>three to five years kind of thing. It can also

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<v Speaker 2>be really bad. And usually find that in the skin,

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<v Speaker 2>like you might have lesions, the color of your skin

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<v Speaker 2>might change. Apparently, you can get very patchy, like hard

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<v Speaker 2>patches on your feet and your palms, like the bottoms

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<v Speaker 2>of your feet. Yeah, and it can give you cancer.

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<v Speaker 2>It's you know, it's a known carcinogen. Now, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>think it was at the time. I think they just

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<v Speaker 2>thought this is a heck of a good poison.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's the thing. Even though I'm not sure if

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<v Speaker 1>it's clear that Sheiel spilled the beans himself, but somebody

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<v Speaker 1>did because it was common knowledge that Siel's green was

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<v Speaker 1>toxic with arsenic and yet as we'll see, people used

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<v Speaker 1>it all the time. It took off like gangbusters basically

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<v Speaker 1>the moment it was available as a pigment. And it's

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<v Speaker 1>not because the people of the age were dumb or

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<v Speaker 1>didn't care about dying. In their experience, arsenic was kind

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<v Speaker 1>of hit or miss. Some people it seemed to poison

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<v Speaker 1>very acutely. Other people seem to be fine as far

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<v Speaker 1>as a cute poisoning goes. And there wasn't an a

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<v Speaker 1>awareness yet of long term exposure poisoning exactly. And what's

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<v Speaker 1>ironic is it turns out it seems to have been

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<v Speaker 1>Shields Green that introduced the Victorian public to the idea

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<v Speaker 1>that you could suffer really horrible consequences from long term

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<v Speaker 1>exposure to arsenic, even though along the way you don't

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<v Speaker 1>seem like you have acute poisoning exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh, maybe we should take our break here, maybe, And

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<v Speaker 2>we've kind of hinted around about how this stuff took off.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll talk more about that right after this.

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<v Speaker 1>Jo so ask you should know.

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<v Speaker 2>So we promised talk of Shields Green really take the

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<v Speaker 2>world by storm, and boy did it. It was in

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<v Speaker 2>all kinds of clothing. I mean, they went nuts worth

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<v Speaker 2>because it it was like this natural green that they

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<v Speaker 2>had never seen before, no one had ever been able

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<v Speaker 2>to replicate, like this really gardeny vegetable green. Yeah, and

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<v Speaker 2>so they went nuts worth. It was in soap, It

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<v Speaker 2>was like in stuff they ate. It was in beauty products,

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<v Speaker 2>it was on stamps that you know, posted stamps that

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<v Speaker 2>you licked like Costanza. What else. It was on wallpapers,

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<v Speaker 2>it was in toys, like children's toys.

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<v Speaker 1>On behalf of all the pedants out there. I want

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<v Speaker 1>to point out that she wasn't a Costanza yet she

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<v Speaker 1>died licking the envelopes that were going out as a

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<v Speaker 1>wedding invitation. So she wasn't a Costanza yet never made

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<v Speaker 1>it to Costanza. You think someone would have emailed that totally.

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<v Speaker 1>I can name, like at least a handful of people

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<v Speaker 1>by name who would.

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<v Speaker 2>Have right, You're probably right. So again, it's taking the

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<v Speaker 2>world by storm. It's in everything, and especially in sort

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<v Speaker 2>of depressing smoggy Revolution Victorian London. All of a sudden

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<v Speaker 2>they had this brilliant green all around and they love

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<v Speaker 2>the stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because, like you said, the industrial Revolution had already

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<v Speaker 1>happened and its full smoggy effects were being felt, and

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<v Speaker 1>people had moved to the city. But yet they were

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<v Speaker 1>not so far removed from the country that they had

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<v Speaker 1>a real affinity and fondness for country rural life. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>So all of a sudden there's this green here that

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<v Speaker 1>again I got to go to the Paris Review because

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<v Speaker 1>they this article he wrote out. It was so great.

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<v Speaker 1>They said that it was not too yellow, wasn't too teal.

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<v Speaker 1>It was a middle green, and it had full saturation.

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<v Speaker 1>It was very vibrant, because up till then, the greens

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<v Speaker 1>that they'd come up with, I think that were based

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<v Speaker 1>on copper, they were not vibrant. It was green, but

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<v Speaker 1>it was a kind of a dumpy green. This was

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<v Speaker 1>suddenly like a green and everybody just loved it. And

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<v Speaker 1>like you said, they used it in every way they

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<v Speaker 1>possibly could.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Like when they went to Sherwin Williams, they're like,

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<v Speaker 2>what kind of greens you got, and they're like, they're

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<v Speaker 2>all dumpy.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, don't you have that schloss green? You mean sheields green?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly. So reports all of a sudden, after you know,

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<v Speaker 2>this becomes the color of the season, start to roll

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<v Speaker 2>in a little bit. Children were quote wasting away in

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<v Speaker 2>their green rooms. People these women that wore these dresses

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<v Speaker 2>were falling ill. Apparently there were these they would wear

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<v Speaker 2>them in these elaborate hats that color green. And there

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<v Speaker 2>was a doctor, doctor A. W. Hoffman, who was an

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<v Speaker 2>analytical chemist that did some testing and he found that

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<v Speaker 2>the average head piece with schloss green had enough arsenic

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<v Speaker 2>to poison twenty people.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so people are starting to become aware, like, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>this stuff is really bad. Like we knew it was toxic,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's really really bad. So there was actually a

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<v Speaker 1>public push that centered on the death of a nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>year old artificial flower maker named Matilda Sure, and she.

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<v Speaker 2>Was Sure a real jerk.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I said that in my head, Chuck, I'm glad

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<v Speaker 1>you put it out there. She died in November of

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<v Speaker 1>eighteen sixty one, and she had I don't remember how

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<v Speaker 1>long she'd worked, but she'd worked for many years in

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<v Speaker 1>a little, tiny, cramped workshop dusting artificial flowers with a

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<v Speaker 1>shields green pigment, and so she inhaled it. It was

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<v Speaker 1>all over her fingers and her nails. So she ate it,

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<v Speaker 1>and by the time she died and was autopsied, it

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<v Speaker 1>was in her stomach, it was in her liver, it

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<v Speaker 1>was in her lungs. Before she died, her eyes had

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<v Speaker 1>turned green, and she reported to her doctor that everything

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<v Speaker 1>she looked at had a green tint to it. That's

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<v Speaker 1>how arsenic laden this poor girl was.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the direct quote is that she vomited green waters.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you don't want to see that.

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<v Speaker 2>You don't want to see that. So, like you said,

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<v Speaker 2>the prescott behind this finally because there was an actual,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, real human death to point to, and Parliament

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<v Speaker 2>got involved, and you know, this is sort of one

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<v Speaker 2>of the first first big regulatory acts for something like this.

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<v Speaker 2>This kind of thing wasn't that common back then, so

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<v Speaker 2>I think in less than ten years Parliament said all right,

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<v Speaker 2>this is we're going to do something. It's called regulating

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<v Speaker 2>and limiting arsenic in food. And everyone went what.

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<v Speaker 1>And all of the wigs stood up and said, nanny state,

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<v Speaker 1>ny state exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>And then the little button on top of this episode

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<v Speaker 2>is that some people believe that Napoleon died of a

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<v Speaker 2>stomach cancer that was perhaps brought on by this green

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<v Speaker 2>poisoning because when he lived in exile in Saint Helena

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<v Speaker 2>on that island, he loved that color and he had

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<v Speaker 2>that wallpaper in his room and apparently was breathing this

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<v Speaker 2>stuff in because of the moisture.

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<v Speaker 1>Right yeah, Open Culture wrote that he so he loved

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<v Speaker 1>his baths and the wallpaper was in his bathroom, and

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<v Speaker 1>they said that anytime it was damp from you know,

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<v Speaker 1>a hot bath, or apparently Saint Helena itself was pretty

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<v Speaker 1>damp and moldy as an island. The arsenic dust in

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<v Speaker 1>that shields green would become vaporized and Napoleon would breathe

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<v Speaker 1>it in. And it's not just some random theory like,

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<v Speaker 1>it's actually fairly widely considered at least possible that that's

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<v Speaker 1>what he died of. We just don't know what he

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<v Speaker 1>died of. Napoleon thought he was being poisoned by British agents.

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<v Speaker 1>I think someone else said he probably died of stomach cancer,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's entirely possibly died from inhaling shields green from

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<v Speaker 1>his wallpaper in his bathroom.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, they could have very well led to the stomach

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<v Speaker 2>cancer for sure.

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<v Speaker 1>And there is a documented case of somebody becoming ill

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<v Speaker 1>from their shields green wallpaper. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. There was an embass in the nineteen fifties to

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<v Speaker 2>Italy named Claire booth Luce who had arsenic poisoning, and

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<v Speaker 2>just like Napoleon thought someone was poisoning him, the CIA

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<v Speaker 2>got involved and thought, well, the Soviets are poisoning this

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<v Speaker 2>woman who was an ambassador for us, and they went

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<v Speaker 2>in did some investigating, and sure enough, her ceiling in

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<v Speaker 2>her bedroom had arsenic in it, and apparently the washing

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<v Speaker 2>machine from the floor above would would rattle and shake

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<v Speaker 2>and that would release arsenic dust and she would just

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<v Speaker 2>breathe that stuff in all night when she slept and

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<v Speaker 2>it killed her.

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<v Speaker 1>Pretty nuts, huh, pretty nuts? Well, big thanks to Open Culture,

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<v Speaker 1>Paris Review, artist Network, Jezebel, and my dear wife you

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<v Speaker 1>me for suggesting this one in the first place.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, is that her idea because of her schloss green headdress.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, she's into Schwass screen antiques. I love it, well,

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<v Speaker 1>Chuck said, he loves it everybody, And you know what

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<v Speaker 1>that means? Short? Stuff?

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<v Speaker 2>Is that stuff you should know? Is a production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 2>For more podcasts myheart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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<v Speaker 2>or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.