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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abuse the

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Speaker 2: power that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust Me.

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Speaker 2: Trust Me.

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Speaker 1: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 4: I've never lied to you, I've never.

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Speaker 2: Had a live If you think that one person has

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Speaker 2: all the answers, don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast

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Speaker 2: about cults, extreme belief, a manipulation from two skeptics who've

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Speaker 2: actually experienced it.

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Speaker 3: I am Lolo.

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Speaker 1: Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: And today is part two with our guest Caitlin Lavety,

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Speaker 2: trust Me listener and former member of evangelical healing ministry

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Speaker 2: Operation Light Force. Last week we talked about how she

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Speaker 2: found the group when her Crohn's disease was at its worst,

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Speaker 2: and this week we're going to talk about how the

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Speaker 2: leader's bogus healing protocol, which included doing sessions in which she,

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Speaker 2: like others in the group, was told to dig into

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Speaker 2: her memory for traumas to process, but how when she

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Speaker 2: ran out of traumas, she was told to dig deeper

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Speaker 2: and deeper until they found, of course, satanic ritual abuse.

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Speaker 1: Of course, we'll talk about how he isolated her from

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Speaker 1: her family, how a period of spontaneous remission deepened her

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Speaker 1: faith in the church and led her to become a

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Speaker 1: public facing spokesperson, going on stage and talking about how

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Speaker 1: she was healed while meanwhile she was throwing up backstage.

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Speaker 1: We'll discuss cold reading, the danger of religious healers who

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Speaker 1: prevent their followers from getting needed medical care, and how

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Speaker 1: she got out and started.

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Speaker 2: Over before we get into part two with Caitlin, whose

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Speaker 2: story is insane and I wish we had former hours

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Speaker 2: to talk to her. Megan, what's your cultiest thing this week?

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Speaker 1: Oh, you know, just a little two by two news.

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Speaker 1: The organization that I was raised in. They are officially

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Speaker 1: being investigated by the FBI, So that is sent out

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Speaker 1: into the.

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Speaker 3: Universe right now.

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Speaker 2: Interesting stuff, and what are the latest updates? I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know, for anyone who hasn't been listening regularly, there

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Speaker 2: was child sexual abuse that was occurring within this group

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Speaker 2: and being covered up, and people were being sort of

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Speaker 2: moved around and continuing to be basically allowed to abuse children.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, just kind of being shuffled like a little

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Speaker 1: bit how people imagine the Catholic Church operates. So just

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Speaker 1: being moved to different posts and then continuing their abuse

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Speaker 1: so super heartbreaking. My heart goes out to everybody who's

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Speaker 1: been hurt by this religion and to the people who

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Speaker 1: are having their eyes open to it. It's really really

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Speaker 1: hard to see all of the people hurt by extreme religion.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and since we talked about it last I mean,

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Speaker 2: have the stories just been piling up, like what's the latest?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So one of the most interesting things about this

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Speaker 1: group is that there wasn't really a central I mean

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Speaker 1: it didn't it doesn't have a name, quote unquote, so

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Speaker 1: people didn't know how to find the other people to

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Speaker 1: even talk about it, so there was no discussions. And

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Speaker 1: as soon as these places where people could come together

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Speaker 1: and start talking began, the stories just started rolling out.

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Speaker 1: So that's what's happening. The place I find the most

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Speaker 1: support is the X two x two group on Facebook

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Speaker 1: that Kyle and carry Ron, who were guests on the show.

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Speaker 1: So if anybody was a member of the church with

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Speaker 1: no name, the truth, the two x two's, whatever you

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Speaker 1: call it, Get on a Facebook and come join us

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Speaker 1: to process it.

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Speaker 2: Indeed, we'll keep us posted on updates on that.

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Speaker 1: Please absolutely. What about you? What's the cultiest thing that

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Speaker 1: happened to you this week?

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Speaker 2: I mean, probably lots of stuff, lots of stuff, last

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Speaker 2: stuff in the world. But I'm going to just go

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Speaker 2: with a news story that I'm seeing this week, which

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Speaker 2: is about a woman named Robin Murphy who was convicted

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Speaker 2: of quote satanic cult murder, which I get, you know,

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Speaker 2: squinty eyed when I that term. But in nineteen seventy

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Speaker 2: nine and nineteen eighty three women were murdered. It's honestly,

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Speaker 2: it's unclear from reading these news stories what exactly happened.

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Speaker 2: There was a dock about it that I will be

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Speaker 2: watching to get a little bit more information. It looks

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Speaker 2: like it's called Fall River, so this was the Fall

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Speaker 2: River like satanic cult murder story. But basically it seems

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Speaker 2: like these three women who were sex workers were murdered

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Speaker 2: in the Fall River area in nineteen seventy nine and

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty and there was a huge satanic panic that

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Speaker 2: was happening in the community at that time because people

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Speaker 2: thought that a Satanic cult had killed them. And one

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Speaker 2: of the women who refused to be a witness in

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Speaker 2: the trial for the first murder, actually she herself ended

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Speaker 2: up getting murdered. But the person who was allegedly the

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Speaker 2: cult leader was this pimp, and he was sentenced to

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Speaker 2: life in prison. But so this woman, Robin Murphy, now

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Speaker 2: she's up for parole. It seems unlikely that she's going

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Speaker 2: to be granted it. So Robin Murphy recame panted her

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Speaker 2: confession years later, saying she didn't take part in the killing,

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Speaker 2: and she actually only agreed to testify so that the

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Speaker 2: other alleged participants would be jailed. And she basically said

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Speaker 2: that the Satanic stuff was made up, that there wasn't

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Speaker 2: a Satanic cult. And I don't have any more information

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Speaker 2: than that because I have to look deeper into the story,

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Speaker 2: and these articles are sort of just skimming the surface.

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Speaker 2: But generally speaking, when I hear that a Satanic cult

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Speaker 2: committed a murder, I feel an extreme degree of skepticism

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Speaker 2: because you know, generally that isn't the case. Generally that's

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Speaker 2: the result of a bit of a panic and maybe

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Speaker 2: a coercive interview with the police during a period when

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Speaker 2: people are very worried about Satanic abuse, which is not

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Speaker 2: to say that Satanism doesn't exist and that murder can't

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Speaker 2: exist from people who maybe say things about the devil

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Speaker 2: or whatever, but these things all kind of get misconstrued,

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Speaker 2: and we will be talking a little bit about satanic

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Speaker 2: panic in this episode. So that's Michael Deest thing.

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Speaker 1: Wow, that's really interesting. Watch that, doc, and yeah, we

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Speaker 1: do get into satanic panic. This this interview is super intriguing.

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Speaker 1: I'm excited for everybody to hear it.

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Speaker 2: Me too. Shall we begin it.

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Speaker 3: Let's go.

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Speaker 2: So, were you led to your own in quotation marks

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Speaker 2: recovered memories of Satanic or twelve abuse?

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Speaker 5: I was?

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Speaker 4: I was, Yeah, it was extraordinarily difficult.

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Speaker 2: What was the process that that would You'd be like

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Speaker 2: in a session with someone and you've run out of

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Speaker 2: sins or traumas or whatever, so like, how are they

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Speaker 2: even presenting that?

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Speaker 5: So they were at that point we had moved sessions

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Speaker 5: back to like Richard's house. They would usually just have

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Speaker 5: you like lie down on a sofa and close your eyes,

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Speaker 5: and honestly, I'd kind of describe it almost and I'm

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Speaker 5: really trying not to let my mic current like study obsession,

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Speaker 5: affect the memory as much as I can. But really,

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Speaker 5: and I want you to keep in mind to the

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Speaker 5: whole time I was in this group, we were encouraged

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Speaker 5: to be constantly fasting. We would be doing prayer services

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Speaker 5: that would last almost the entire night long, so I

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Speaker 5: was getting roughly maybe only three to four hours of

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Speaker 5: sleep a day. So we were in a state of

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Speaker 5: mind that would encourage like I think, hallucination to with

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Speaker 5: so I think that's something for context.

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Speaker 4: So I would kind of.

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Speaker 5: Be lulled into a weird kind of hypnagogic state, I

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Speaker 5: think with my eyes closed, and they would just ask

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Speaker 5: me to think of the farthest back memory that I

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Speaker 5: could think of, and so I would reach back as

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Speaker 5: far as I could into my memory and I would

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Speaker 5: tell them the first memory that I could think of.

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Speaker 5: And sometimes if I did that and it wasn't satisfactory,

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Speaker 5: they would just say, tell us the first thing that

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Speaker 5: you think of, and I would because I believed that

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Speaker 5: I was being guided by the Holy Spirit. So sometimes

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Speaker 5: it wasn't anything to do with memory at all, and

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Speaker 5: so I would remember, oh a tree, I remember pine tree,

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Speaker 5: or I'm seeing a pine tree, and then I would

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Speaker 5: kind of be suggested like okay, like follow the pine tree,

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Speaker 5: like you're in a path in a forest, You're going

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Speaker 5: down the path, Like is it dark outside? Yeah, I

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Speaker 5: think it is dark outside. It would kind of be

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Speaker 5: like those types of leading questions. Yeah, And I'd already

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Speaker 5: had a history of sexual assault. I'd already been through

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Speaker 5: this ministry with him, so he knew that because he

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Speaker 5: was my counselor. I want to point out, all of

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Speaker 5: the other girls in the ministry who went through SRA

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Speaker 5: ministry also had histories of that, and also he was

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Speaker 5: their minister for it, so all of the other people

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Speaker 5: who suddenly remembered that they were victims of Satanic ritual

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Speaker 5: abuse all had very similar backgrounds as me. And then

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Speaker 5: all of a sudden, I would just be like, oh,

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Speaker 5: and I remember, you know, feeling cold in the forest,

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Speaker 5: and he'd be like, okay, here's what God's telling me actually.

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Speaker 4: Occurred, you know here.

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Speaker 2: Oh, he'd just tell you.

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Speaker 5: Sometimes yes, wow, it would be as straightforward as that.

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Speaker 5: Or I remember once it was as vague as I

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Speaker 5: was laying on the sofa and my eyes were closed,

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Speaker 5: and he asked me, what's coming to your mind, and

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Speaker 5: I couldn't even conjure a visual. I conjured a song lyric.

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Speaker 5: I think it was a Demi Lovado song. I couldn't

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Speaker 5: think of any else, but I was just trying to

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Speaker 5: be honest, and it was like, I don't even remember,

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Speaker 5: but it was. It was that song for the Love

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Speaker 5: of a Daughter, like from Demi Levado's like Skyscraper or

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Speaker 5: soundtrack or something that had come out around that time period.

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Speaker 5: And he was like, okay, I'm not familiar with the song,

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Speaker 5: so he pulled it up on his laptop and then

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Speaker 5: he read the lyrics and he was like, Okay, what

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Speaker 5: this is telling me is this is a very strong

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Speaker 5: message from God. What this is telling me is that

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Speaker 5: I believe that your your father also had something to

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Speaker 5: do with this satanic ritual abuse, and that he must

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Speaker 5: have also been a part of it, and that he

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Speaker 5: was responsible for leading you through and handing you off

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Speaker 5: to these people who then performed these rituals on you

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Speaker 5: and X Y or Z and they some of these

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Speaker 5: descriptions of memory were very explicit in like sexual acts

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Speaker 5: and like being being for and again this would have

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Speaker 5: been described acted upon me as like a five year

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Speaker 5: old child.

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Speaker 4: So then some.

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Speaker 5: Of these were visual memories implanted in my mind and

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Speaker 5: I was kind of forced to imagine them along with him.

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Speaker 5: So then, as a person in recovery outside of the cult,

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Speaker 5: I was left with these memories that I now know

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Speaker 5: are not real, that are recovered memories. And part of

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Speaker 5: the reason why I left was because of this ministry,

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Speaker 5: because of this therapy quote unquote for the audience who

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Speaker 5: can't see me, I'm doing fake quotation marks. Because it

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Speaker 5: did not feel genuine to my experience. I started actively

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Speaker 5: having panic attacks. I would run from the therapy sessions, the

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Speaker 5: ministry sessions, and I would throw up in the bathroom

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Speaker 5: because it felt so disingenuous to my lived experience. But

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Speaker 5: I thought that this was what God wanted me to

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Speaker 5: do and needed for me to do to be.

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Speaker 4: Well, and I was just so odd.

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Speaker 2: Did you like, and maybe the answer is that you

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Speaker 2: are of two minds at the same time, but did

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Speaker 2: you as He's telling you these things that happened to you,

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Speaker 2: did you kind of know on some level like this

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Speaker 2: this didn't happen to me? Or were you like, oh,

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Speaker 2: this God is telling me, So maybe I just don't

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Speaker 2: remember very well.

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Speaker 5: What's what's interesting is I think, I think what sums

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Speaker 5: it up? Actually, if I may, because I was reading

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Speaker 5: through some old emails, because we Richard and I kept

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Speaker 5: emails through the whole time that I was in the group.

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Speaker 5: So I pulled up an email that i'd found, actually,

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Speaker 5: that i'd sent to him right after one of these

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Speaker 5: Satanic ritual abuse ministries that I was talking about my

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Speaker 5: feelings about it.

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Speaker 4: If I may, I.

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Speaker 5: Read one of them from June eighth, twenty sixteen, because

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Speaker 5: he asked me, how do you feel about what you've

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Speaker 5: learned so far? What do you think of it all

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Speaker 5: in regards to quote the SRA stuff unquote, and that's

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Speaker 5: how he referred to it. I said, I have a

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Speaker 5: wide range of thoughts and feelings. I said, to be frank,

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Speaker 5: it's hard for me to wrap my head around some

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Speaker 5: of the things that you all have been talking about

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Speaker 5: and some of the things I read in the book.

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Speaker 5: He gave me an SRA book written by a woman

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Speaker 5: who believed that she'd been a victim of SRA. The

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Speaker 5: idea of quote alternates or quote magical surgery seems a

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Speaker 5: little beyond me. Those are some terms that he used

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Speaker 5: that some people in Satanic ritual abuse used to heal

250
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Speaker 5: from that. It's all magical language. It's all just cult terminology.

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Speaker 5: But back to my email, they seem a little beyond me,

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Speaker 5: and it's hard to imagine that things like that can

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Speaker 5: actually happen. My experiences seemed to be lining up with

254
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Speaker 5: the few other victim stories I read, and I don't

255
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Speaker 5: think you'd intentionally leave me to crazy people. I do

256
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Speaker 5: think I did think that you all were strained the

257
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Speaker 5: first few times I met you, and look where we

258
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Speaker 5: ended up. I'm a mixture of daunted but hopeful. This

259
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Speaker 5: all feels very bad to admit. I feel really anxious

260
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Speaker 5: and scared anytime we start dealing with this, and even

261
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Speaker 5: more so now. It's like this visceral fear. I feel

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Speaker 5: like I'm not supposed to be talking about any of this.

263
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Speaker 5: I'm not sure how this is going to help me progress.

264
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Speaker 5: Thanks for walking through all of this with me. It's

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Speaker 5: a really intimidating process. It's nice to have someone familiar there.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so it sounds like you are feeling a lot

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Speaker 2: of anxiety, very come out of pavigation, but still like

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Speaker 2: trying to like make it work and trying to be

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Speaker 2: the good member, right I was.

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Speaker 5: And I think something something that sticks out to me

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Speaker 5: here is just the faith in him that he like

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Speaker 5: the line that sticks out to me a lot there

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Speaker 5: is like I don't think you'd intentionally lead me to

275
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Speaker 5: crazy people. I felt a lot of a lot of

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Speaker 5: trust in him as a person and as the leader

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Speaker 5: of this group and of this faith group. And I

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Speaker 5: viewed him as my He was like my guru, like

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Speaker 5: my religious leader, kind of my guide post. And he

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Speaker 5: was in charge of this group of at one point

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Speaker 5: like forty or fifty of us, and I truly believed that, like,

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Speaker 5: if he saw something in me that I didn't understand,

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Speaker 5: even if it was this dark, scary thing, that like,

284
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Speaker 5: he would not intentionally lead me incorrectly. So any fear

285
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Speaker 5: or anxiety that I felt, I guess must not be trusted.

286
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Speaker 2: I suppose, of course. Yeah, don't chanste your own.

287
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Speaker 4: Years holding it up too, you know, So.

288
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Speaker 3: I mean, I I do, Sorry, Lila, Can I go on?

289
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Speaker 3: I do?

290
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Speaker 1: Just like note though in the email that you're not

291
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Speaker 1: like it was great. I loved every minute of it.

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Speaker 1: I totally believe in it.

293
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Speaker 3: Oh, like you are saying like it's pretty weird. Uh, yeah, yeah.

294
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Speaker 2: You're expressing very clear discovert yes. And like when your

295
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Speaker 2: dad was included in the accusation, which first of all,

296
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Speaker 2: how rude.

297
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Speaker 3: What was your relationship with him? Like before? Yeah, sorry,

298
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Speaker 3: I was.

299
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Speaker 2: Just gonna my thought was just gonna be like if

300
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Speaker 2: he's going over these things that happened that allegedly he's

301
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Speaker 2: saying happen to you when you're a child and in

302
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Speaker 2: explicit sexual detail, and you are a survivor of sexual

303
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Speaker 2: assault already at this point, Like that's a just irresponsible,

304
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Speaker 2: like re traumatizing, like uh, and then and then also

305
00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:16,439
Speaker 2: like bringing your father into it, like yes, and then that.

306
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Speaker 5: One specifically, I actually jolted up from the sofa and

307
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Speaker 5: I was like, I don't think it's I don't think

308
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Speaker 5: that he had anything to do with it, because at

309
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Speaker 5: that point, the relatives he'd been bringing up were like

310
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Speaker 5: great grandfather, like extended uncle or something like people that

311
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Speaker 5: are passed away or that I didn't know or remember,

312
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Speaker 5: like my father. I'm like, first of all, no, I

313
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Speaker 5: love my dad, like we don't see eye and everything,

314
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Speaker 5: but I love him. Secondarily, he was living in another

315
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Speaker 5: state at the time, so I don't understand how that

316
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Speaker 5: could be, and I didn't express it that way to him,

317
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Speaker 5: but I was just kind of heartbroken and shocked that

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Speaker 5: he had said that in the moment, and I sort

319
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Speaker 5: of looked up and I was like, no, no, not

320
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Speaker 5: my dad, No, I think that you may have that

321
00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,920
Speaker 5: must be a mistake, Like I think maybe you got

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Speaker 5: that wrong just because of the song lyrics said the

323
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Speaker 5: word dad, Like, I don't know, and he's like, I

324
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Speaker 5: know that that's probably really hard to hear, and you

325
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Speaker 5: know that the enemy is probably gonna want to, like,

326
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Speaker 5: you know, assow seeds of doubt or what have you.

327
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Speaker 5: And I was just like, I think, I'm I think

328
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Speaker 5: I'm gonna want to maybe.

329
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Speaker 4: Tap this this one. I think I'm.

330
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Speaker 5: Gonna want to maybe and this session early, I think

331
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Speaker 5: I need to time out, Like.

332
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Speaker 2: My DA's just been open. He just told you that

333
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,879
Speaker 2: you but no, actually it really did happen.

334
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Speaker 5: Sorry, He at the very least very strongly insinuated that yes,

335
00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:55,040
Speaker 5: indeed happen, and this is yes. That was kind of

336
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Speaker 5: like one of the moments of the beginning of the

337
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Speaker 5: end for me. The Satanic ritual abuse really was the

338
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Speaker 5: beginning of the end for me. It was twenty sixteen

339
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,199
Speaker 5: was a downhill slope for me in this group. It

340
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Speaker 5: was him mentioning my father. It was him kind of

341
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Speaker 5: sowing seeds of like resentment between me and the rest

342
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Speaker 5: of my family. At this point, I was spending twenty

343
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Speaker 5: four to seven with this group all the time. Like

344
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Speaker 5: I found another email between he and I where my

345
00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,600
Speaker 5: mom had asked to like spend a week with me,

346
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Speaker 5: and he had told me that there was a negative

347
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,400
Speaker 5: soul tie between her and me and then it might

348
00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:36,879
Speaker 5: just seem like a sweet request from a mother, but

349
00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:40,000
Speaker 5: that it was the enemy working between us and that

350
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Speaker 5: I should really try to like not meet with her.

351
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Speaker 2: Wow, he's fully isolating you. Yeah.

352
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Speaker 5: Yes, And at that point, my brother had from what

353
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Speaker 5: I was told, my brother had quit the group at

354
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Speaker 5: that point around twenty sixteen, and then I stopped hearing

355
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,800
Speaker 5: from him, and he's, you know, my younger brother, and

356
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:05,960
Speaker 5: I'm not going to stop talking to him, so I'm

357
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:11,640
Speaker 5: still reaching out to him. And Richard starts encouraging me, like, Hey,

358
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Speaker 5: I think I think your younger brother might be hindering

359
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,000
Speaker 5: your spiritual progress.

360
00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,520
Speaker 4: And I'm like, I.

361
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,800
Speaker 5: Don't know, because before you told me that we were

362
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:25,440
Speaker 5: like twin spiritual rock stars, So I think I'm probably

363
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:29,159
Speaker 5: not gonna I'm probably not gonna let him go.

364
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:30,359
Speaker 4: He's my younger brother.

365
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,040
Speaker 3: And like, yeah, how long had you been in this

366
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Speaker 3: by now? Is that is two years? The math mathing

367
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:37,320
Speaker 3: at two years?

368
00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, at that point it was like over two years.

369
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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, okay, And what when you say you're spending

370
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,080
Speaker 1: twenty four to seven with them? Where is it like

371
00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:49,000
Speaker 1: a compound type of like what are where are you? Guys?

372
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:50,040
Speaker 4: That's fair?

373
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Speaker 5: So this is almost embarrassing to admit. At that point,

374
00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:01,359
Speaker 5: I had moved out of my own play and was

375
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,520
Speaker 5: living with members to try to be closer.

376
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,879
Speaker 3: To them more.

377
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:13,240
Speaker 5: Because they had convinced me I was having a hard

378
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,000
Speaker 5: time with my parents at the time. Again, I was

379
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:17,639
Speaker 5: like a teenager into my early twenties, and I was

380
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:22,160
Speaker 5: having a difficult relationship with my parents and Crohn's disease,

381
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:29,000
Speaker 5: which I was still actively having this entire time, and

382
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,040
Speaker 5: they had convinced me that my parents were abusing me

383
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:37,080
Speaker 5: and that I should get out of the house and

384
00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,560
Speaker 5: that they would put me up. So I was living

385
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:46,480
Speaker 5: on couches in either members homes or sometimes just Richard's house.

386
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,000
Speaker 2: So you go from like having the occasional meeting with

387
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,440
Speaker 2: Richard to like spending more and more time with them.

388
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,680
Speaker 2: So now you're living with members, and like is your

389
00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,560
Speaker 2: whole day consumed by work with the group, Like what's

390
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:01,919
Speaker 2: life like at that point?

391
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:03,120
Speaker 4: Yeah?

392
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,960
Speaker 5: Pretty much. So like I am getting up. I have

393
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,119
Speaker 5: a full time job still, so I haven't given up

394
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:13,200
Speaker 5: my full time job yet. At that point, I am

395
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,200
Speaker 5: getting up, I'm going to work, and then I'm driving

396
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,640
Speaker 5: straight from work to I'm just calling it church at

397
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 5: that point, So I'm going straight from work to church,

398
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:28,080
Speaker 5: which is usually Richard's house. So then I'm staying the

399
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,159
Speaker 5: entire time at Richard's house. We're usually fasting so or

400
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 5: I'm sick so I don't eat, and we spend a

401
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,159
Speaker 5: lot of time worshiping and praying, and then he's doing

402
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 5: like a live stream and we're helping set up for that,

403
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 5: and then we do like a worship service again, and

404
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,480
Speaker 5: then we do prophetic Word, and then we give a

405
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,960
Speaker 5: reading of the Bible, and then people stay late for

406
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 5: like healing and laying on of hands and more.

407
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 2: Like gteral like miracle healing, Like we're getting into physical

408
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 2: healing at that point. Uh huh, okay.

409
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 3: And by late, what do you mean like four am?

410
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:03,680
Speaker 3: Five am?

411
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:05,920
Speaker 5: Oh, not usually that late, like.

412
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,360
Speaker 3: Two okay, two or three okay?

413
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:09,680
Speaker 2: How many times a week?

414
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 5: Gosh, just a couple okay, like maybe two or three

415
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:19,640
Speaker 5: or four.

416
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 2: Sometimes okay, but that's a long ass evening.

417
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:26,840
Speaker 4: It is. And then on Sundays you're pretty much there

418
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:27,400
Speaker 4: the whole day.

419
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:28,640
Speaker 1: Mmmm.

420
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 2: So, And and how does how did your crones factor

421
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 2: into your conception of the church for those first couple

422
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 2: of years at least? Like were you you said you

423
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 2: were still super sick this whole time, and were you

424
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,120
Speaker 2: kind of just like still holding out hope that if

425
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,119
Speaker 2: you got through enough of the sins, the traumas and

426
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,120
Speaker 2: you like processed enough of those that you would begin

427
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 2: to heal.

428
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, pretty much.

429
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 5: And I I I do want to be like completely

430
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,120
Speaker 5: honest and fair to the to the experience of like

431
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 5: crones and them. I was very, very sick when I

432
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:14,119
Speaker 5: first got there, and then I did experience like a

433
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 5: blip of remission in like twenty sixteen summer of twenty sixteen,

434
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 5: I went into what's called a spontaneous remission, which autoimmune diseases.

435
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 3: Do, which convenient for this group.

436
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 4: However, which did not help me.

437
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, we posted that on social media. I actually

438
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 5: did like a speaking tour for the group where I

439
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,199
Speaker 5: went on stages, and the largest group I think I

440
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 5: spoke in front of was like a.

441
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 4: Thousand or so.

442
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 5: Wow, And I straight up said to people's faces that, like,

443
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 5: God cured my incurable illness and he can cure yours too,

444
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 5: and I don't know how he did it, Please don't

445
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 5: ask me. And then people did come up after and

446
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 5: asked me, Hey, God didn't cure our daughter's cancer and

447
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 5: she died. Why did Yeah, so it's like, why did

448
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 5: he cure you and not her? And then I had

449
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 5: to contend with these big questions which were maybe not

450
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 5: fair to ask me, but they were fair logical questions.

451
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 5: And then that remission only lasted about a month or two. Though,

452
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 5: so the entire time around that remission, before and after

453
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,959
Speaker 5: I was sick, and I have documentation to back that up.

454
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 5: I wanted to be fair though, and to state there

455
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 5: was a period of a couple of months in twenty sixteen,

456
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 5: during that one summer where I was in a little

457
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,199
Speaker 5: remission where I wasn't throwing up and having diarrhea, but

458
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 5: the rest of the time, I was frantically getting sick

459
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 5: and I couldn't eat and it was miserable. But I

460
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:59,400
Speaker 5: was promised, as long as you keep working, as long

461
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 5: as you keep coming to these things and keep trying,

462
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,679
Speaker 5: we will like hit a breakthrough. It was promised us,

463
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 5: like a breakthrough, and God wants total healing for your life,

464
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 5: and like we've heard from God, and like you hear

465
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 5: God now too, which I was convinced that I could,

466
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 5: And like what.

467
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 2: It talks about that on the website too. He talks

468
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 2: about how people literally hear God through his ministry.

469
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: What did God sound like just a voice in your

470
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 1: head that was different from your own inner monologue.

471
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 5: Or that's a tough question. This is something that I've

472
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 5: wrestled with for a long time. This, Yeah, I guess

473
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 5: that's a good way of describing it, because and I

474
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 5: have heard that people's internal thoughts sound different to them.

475
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 5: So some people don't have an inner monologue in their head.

476
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 5: I am a person who does have an inner monologue

477
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 5: in my head, and it comes across as full sentences

478
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 5: of words, so I think that's important to differentiate. So

479
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 5: for me, it would just be okay, I am now

480
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 5: receiving any messages God, if you have a word for me,

481
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,199
Speaker 5: anything that comes after the end of this sentence, I

482
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 5: am open to hearing words from you. Go and then

483
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 5: I would bown my head and I would be very

484
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,400
Speaker 5: earnest and I would listen, and then anything that came

485
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 5: after that point, I would consider God's word.

486
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 3: Yeah.

487
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 2: But of course anytime we do that, something is going

488
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 2: to come into our heads. That's correct, brains work correct.

489
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, And sometimes it would be, for lack of a

490
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 5: better term, a thought that would kind of like if

491
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 5: I was driving, a thought that would kind of pop

492
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,479
Speaker 5: in out of nowhere, and I would be like, oh,

493
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 5: maybe that's the Holy Spirit, Like, and that is maybe

494
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:52,400
Speaker 5: just an intrusive.

495
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 4: Thought, like my Holy Spirit.

496
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 5: Or sometimes it's a very a very strong swelling of

497
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 5: emotion and while listening to and singing a very familiar

498
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 5: hymn in a group of people who were also singing

499
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 5: a familiar hymn, who were all raising their hands and swaying,

500
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 5: and we're all feeling very emotional. Maybe that's the Holy Spirit.

501
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 5: But I'm like, music has a very strong effect on people,

502
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 5: and we all also haven't eaten in a really long time,

503
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 5: so maybe that's not the Holy Spirit either. So the

504
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 5: Holy Spirit, I think meant a few different things. But

505
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 5: hearing the voice of God there meant mostly in my

506
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 5: personal experience, because I can't speak for everyone else, That's

507
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,479
Speaker 5: what I meant for me, just being very earnest and

508
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 5: making sure that I was following the steps I was

509
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 5: supposed to, reading the Bible, praying, fasting, studying, and then

510
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 5: when I supplicated myself and I asked God to fill

511
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 5: me with the Holy Spirit in a place surrounded by

512
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 5: other believers, trusting that he would and that it wouldn't

513
00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 5: be me, and that everybody else trusted it too. And

514
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 5: also the fact that when I cold read people, it

515
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 5: tended to be more accurate than other people's were, so

516
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 5: that kind of validated that that's.

517
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 4: What it was.

518
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 2: I appreciate what you said about acknowledging the period of

519
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 2: remission that you had, and I think that's actually an

520
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 2: important thing too mentioned and to discussed, because you know,

521
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 2: like in it when we are in a situation like

522
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 2: this where a promise has been made and then like

523
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 2: because of life and bodies and whatever the fuck how

524
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 2: the world works, that promise is like feels like it's

525
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 2: being fulfilled in that moment. That's just going to strengthen

526
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 2: your your faith, right, like correct? It makes me think

527
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 2: of we had on Detarth to Deja who believed in

528
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 2: Q of you know of qnon and Q was saying

529
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 2: these things that Trump was going to say, and then

530
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 2: Trump says them. Of course Trump always says them because

531
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 2: that's they're just the things that Trump say. But he

532
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 2: you know they Trump would be saying the things that

533
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 2: were prophesied. So it's like, aha, of course, you know

534
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 2: that's like but given the nature of your illness, that

535
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 2: was bound to happen eventually, probably right, Did you feel

536
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 2: a redoubling of like did you feel like your faith

537
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 2: was stronger after that?

538
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 3: Yeah?

539
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely?

540
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 5: And I wrote an email after then too, and I

541
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 5: read that and I sounded like an absolute cheerleader. I

542
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 5: would have gone to the ends of the earth proclaiming

543
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 5: the truth of that ministry and that group. I was

544
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 5: like yes, And they asked, can we put your stuff

545
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 5: on promotional materials? Can you write a testimony for our Facebook?

546
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 5: Would you be willing to speak to a group? And

547
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 5: I said yes, yes, yes, I'll go to anything. I'll

548
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 5: talk to anybody, Like it made it feel like it

549
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 5: had all finally come true.

550
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 2: So that was how you kind of became someone who

551
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 2: was a public facing person. Yes, yeah, makes sense, makes sense,

552
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 2: you know. I on the Prescriptions for Healing video I made,

553
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 2: I wrote down a quote because I thought it was interesting,

554
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 2: and I wondered, if you know who this is referring to.

555
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 2: He's talking about worksheets that he would give people for healing,

556
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 2: and he said, somebody had that worksheet and they had

557
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 2: kind of shut down our teaching and didn't agree with

558
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 2: some of it. They took that worksheet home and when

559
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 2: they found themselves dealing with several major physical issues, they

560
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 2: pulled that worksheet out, went through it and experienced physical

561
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 2: healing within a day of things that they were on

562
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 2: medicines for things doctor said would take weeks, and God

563
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 2: healed them from the inside out.

564
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 5: Well, it do stand like me, I will say. I

565
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 5: will say, though, having read the website, not to be

566
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 5: too much of a dick, I also think it doesn't

567
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 5: sound like anybody because no one experienced healing that quickly

568
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 5: period period. No one was experience and seeing total symptom

569
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 5: noticeable symptom loss within a day of filling out a

570
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 5: worksheet no budy well for.

571
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, I mean yeah, yeah, yeah. But I wondered

572
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 2: if there was like a you know, placebo situation happening

573
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 2: with anyone at any point that you were aware.

574
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 5: Definitely, definitely, yeah, like one hundred percent. And I even

575
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 5: know one of myself because again, like much much safer to.

576
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 4: Speak to my own experiences.

577
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 5: There was a moment where I had like a really

578
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 5: bad skin condition. Autoimmune stuff often has skin issues along

579
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 5: with it. A super fun time having another immune condition.

580
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 5: I'm just super cute all the time. But so I

581
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 5: was just miserable and at my it was on my

582
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 5: lower leg like around my calf area, and nothing I

583
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 5: could do to it gave it any any help.

584
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 4: So they I went.

585
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 5: To receive healing laying on of hands, which just does

586
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 5: what it says on the tin from Ministry, and they

587
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 5: anointed their hands with oil just like little blessed olive

588
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 5: oil and some doughterra probably, and they were big on.

589
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 4: The doughter of unrelated, they were big on the dough terra.

590
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 1: I have a few bottles myself, but you know, essential oils,

591
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: I didn't know what that was.

592
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 2: So essential oil.

593
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 5: Sorry, yes, essential oils. Yeah, you can definitely still do

594
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 5: from those days. I still have leftover bottles, but I'll

595
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 5: still I've got a diffuser in here. Same you know,

596
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 5: oils out of the church girl, but not the I

597
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 5: don't know. So I took my leg and I was like, hey, guys.

598
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 4: This fucking hurts. Can you do anything about it?

599
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 5: And they were like, oh, absolutely, will come laying hands

600
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 5: on you. And they anointed their little hands with oil,

601
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 5: and they like laid their hands on and from my perception,

602
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 5: it looked like a Again, it's never the entire thing. It's

603
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 5: never like, it's never any complete and total hearing. It

604
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 5: looked like the bottom like third portion of it, it

605
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 5: was this huge, like maybe the entire shin sized area

606
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 5: of my leg was like a big rash, so maybe

607
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 5: the bottom third near the ankle, it looked like was

608
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 5: fifty percent lighter than it happened before from my perception,

609
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,359
Speaker 5: and I thought, oh my god, Like the lady had

610
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 5: her hand on it, she had pressed down on it

611
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 5: really hard for like thirty minutes with this oil, and

612
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,320
Speaker 5: then she lifted her hand away, and I still remember

613
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 5: the look on her face and the look on my

614
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 5: face and everybody else's face, and we were like, oh

615
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 5: my god, wow.

616
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:53,760
Speaker 4: Fuck like we didn't.

617
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 5: Say but it was just like shit, like whoa, we

618
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 5: did it?

619
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 4: Wow? And I was like keep going.

620
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 5: Please, like yeah, do the whole rest of it. And

621
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 5: she's like, I'm hearing God's voice right now. I still

622
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 5: fucking remember this.

623
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 4: And she's just like.

624
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,800
Speaker 5: God says like, do you trust him for your healing?

625
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 5: And I was like, yes, I absolutely do. And she's

626
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 5: like I'm still hearing him and I was like yes,

627
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 5: and she says, do you trust him for your healing

628
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,240
Speaker 5: even if he does not complete it today?

629
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 3: Ah?

630
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 5: And I said yes. She said okay, and then she

631
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 5: took her hand away and she didn't do the rest

632
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 5: of it.

633
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 4: And I was like.

634
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 5: Because it was extremely painful, and I didn't understand why

635
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 5: he wouldn't do the rest of it if he could

636
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 5: do the bottom little part at least partially. And then

637
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 5: I remember looking at it the next day because at

638
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 5: that ministry section, I would have sworn up and down

639
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,240
Speaker 5: that it had gotten healed. And then I went to sleep,

640
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 5: woke up the next like morning, and in the daylight

641
00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 5: it didn't actually look too much different. So there is

642
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 5: definitely a small placebo effect or a large placebo effect happening. Right,

643
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 5: People are around you, they're hoping for your healing. You,

644
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 5: I think subconsciously you don't want to disappoint them. You know,

645
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 5: you also really want it to work. Yeah, there's a

646
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 5: rush of adrenaline. Yeah, you want to be a success story.

647
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 5: You want people hugging you, crying, like saying congratulations, God

648
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 5: blessed you.

649
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 3: For sure.

650
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 2: I mean, our perception literally changes depending on our expectation

651
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 2: and in our environment. So it makes sense to me

652
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 2: that in that moment that would look different and then

653
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 2: maybe not as much the next day. Also, maybe oil

654
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 2: was helpful.

655
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:48,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe it will helped.

656
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,320
Speaker 1: Was it awkward when people would be like and to

657
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 1: da and nothing would be different at all?

658
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 3: What that happened a lot?

659
00:36:55,640 --> 00:37:00,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, and especially when people came repeatedly and this is

660
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 5: this is shameful. We had repeated people who had like

661
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 5: cerebral palsy and down syndrome and cancer. And when those

662
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 5: people came back repeatedly, and you know, like things that

663
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 5: aren't invisible disabilities or chronic illnesses, things that you can

664
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 5: visibly track, it's hard not to question why healing isn't

665
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 5: happening immediately there, you know, and I'm like, if they've

666
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 5: been faithful stewards of the ministry here, Like I asked

667
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 5: after one man that, you know, I'm like, how long

668
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 5: has he been with the group? And they're like, oh,

669
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,399
Speaker 5: he's been here for you know, ten or fifteen years.

670
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 6: And I'm like.

671
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 5: Healer, healine's self, like why why? Yeah, Like, these guys

672
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 5: are been faithful, They've put their entire lives on hold.

673
00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 5: I'm putting my entire life on hold. I've only been

674
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 5: here for a couple of years, and I feel kind

675
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:06,400
Speaker 5: of it was a rollercoaster. Towards the end, I felt miserable.

676
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 5: There were pockets of happiness. They gave me community. I

677
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 5: loved them like a family, you know, I missed them

678
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 5: when I left.

679
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it makes sense.

680
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 4: But also yeah that's the Yeah.

681
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 2: So I don't know, but you would see this and like,

682
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 2: would that plant little seeds of doubt in your mind

683
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,720
Speaker 2: when you see someone who's been Yeah.

684
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,320
Speaker 4: Absolutely. It was those moments.

685
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 5: It was the parents coming up to me after my

686
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 5: talk about healing and mentioning their daughter who had passed

687
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 5: away from an illness. It was it was Richard accusing

688
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 5: my father of you know, SRA. When I knew that

689
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 5: it couldn't have been because of actual memories I had had.

690
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 5: It was probably one of the worst counseling sessions that

691
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 5: I had. They had a pair, a married pair of

692
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 5: quote unquote counselors from Houston who apparently used to charge

693
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 5: ten thousand dollars a session. Oh my gosh, come and

694
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 5: do a special workshop with me on a concept called

695
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 5: soul fragmenting, where the apparently Richard had exhausted all of

696
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 5: his present day knowledge about how to work with SRA victims,

697
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 5: and he said, there's this new fangled spiritual technology. This

698
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 5: couple has agreed to see you for free because you're

699
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 5: such a special case and you know it's going to

700
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,280
Speaker 5: be really hard work, but this is the only way.

701
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 5: And I said, okay, I'm very sick, I'm near the

702
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 5: end of my rope. Here I will do it. And

703
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 5: I arrived and they said, okay, we believe inside of

704
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 5: every abused person's soul, their soul is broken up into

705
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 5: different shards and f fragments of people's like personalities, and

706
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 5: essentially like the concept. It was so strange and bizarre.

707
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 5: They were essentially saying that, like the trauma that I

708
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:17,280
Speaker 5: had endured as a Satanic ritual abuse victim had caused

709
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 5: my soul to fragment into different personalities, and that in

710
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 5: order to repair my physical illness, they would need to

711
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 5: put my soul back together, and in order to do that,

712
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:34,919
Speaker 5: they needed to independently speak to each one of the

713
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,479
Speaker 5: shards of my soul. So they needed to start doing that.

714
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 5: So they said, we need you to lie down and

715
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 5: we're going to talk to the first shard and will

716
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 5: know who it is. And I said, okay. In my

717
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 5: head at that time, because sometimes things sounded half and

718
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 5: half true, and sometimes like the email, I said, this

719
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 5: was weird, but I trust you. Richard alarm bells that

720
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 5: entire meeting. I sat down on the couch and I

721
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 5: closed my eyes and they put they tried to put

722
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,719
Speaker 5: me in the weird state, and I was just like,

723
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 5: in my head, no, this sounds fake and weird. I

724
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 5: do not believe in this. This does not sound anything

725
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 5: remotely close to what was in the Bible.

726
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 4: This doesn't cry.

727
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 5: Sounds like some weird bullshit. I'm like, I don't understand

728
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 5: what this is or what this is about. I'm uncomfortable,

729
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 5: and they're like, okay, conjure up the first fragment, like

730
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 5: what do you see and I would I just wanted

731
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 5: to please them. And Richard and his wife were there

732
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 5: and they were like my parents at that point, and

733
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 5: I felt so pressured and I just said a name.

734
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 5: I was like Mabel. I still remember. I was just

735
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,719
Speaker 5: like a little there's a little girl named Mabel. I

736
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 5: literally said that. I was just like I didn't know

737
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,479
Speaker 5: what else to say. And they were like, we sense

738
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 5: that you're lying, and I'm like, I like, we need

739
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 5: you to be genuine, and I was like, I just

740
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 5: I sat up and again, I like, I sets.

741
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 4: And I'm not usually this emotional.

742
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 5: I was just in a very fragile state at.

743
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:05,760
Speaker 4: The time in my life.

744
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I just I just said, I don't want

745
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:10,839
Speaker 5: to do this. I do not want to do this.

746
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 5: I am not comfortable. This does not feel genuine. I

747
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 5: don't think I believe in this. I'm not going to

748
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 5: do this.

749
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 2: And wow, good for you.

750
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was like that.

751
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 5: And then Richard really drew the line about saying that

752
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 5: I needed to sever the soul tie with my younger brother,

753
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 5: and that essentially meant I couldn't speak to him or

754
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,800
Speaker 5: see him or seek out like a relationship with him anymore,

755
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,760
Speaker 5: and he was my favorite human being on the entire world,

756
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 5: and I was like, I'm.

757
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 4: Not going to do that.

758
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 5: So that was happening at the same time. I'm sure

759
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 5: you were called. Around the end of twenty sixteen, a

760
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:55,839
Speaker 5: certain presidential nominee was starting to gear up, and our

761
00:42:55,880 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 5: groups started to present with certain I bees and support

762
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 5: for certain people that I did not view as especially Christian,

763
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 5: uh huh.

764
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 4: And I thought that it.

765
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 5: Was a little antithetical to our Christian worldview to support

766
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 5: that candidate, and I was concerned about where they were

767
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 5: going with them, And also at the time, I amidst

768
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 5: all of that thought I might not be straight and

769
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 5: they weren't cool.

770
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:28,760
Speaker 2: There's a lot going on at the same time, A.

771
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 4: Lot going on.

772
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, wow, I feel like there's so

773
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 2: much fucking here in your story. I'm like, it's so

774
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 2: it's just so wild. So just to like quickly touch

775
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 2: on a couple of other things that we didn't really

776
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,799
Speaker 2: get to talk about that much, you mentioned that, you know,

777
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:54,320
Speaker 2: you were y'all were hungry and tired all of the time,

778
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 2: which like just you know, for someone who maybe doesn't

779
00:43:58,040 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 2: listen to the show all the time, Like that is

780
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 2: a tactic to turn people's critical thinking off, because when

781
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 2: you you're not going to be thinking at your best,

782
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 2: at your sharpest, you're not going to be questioning as

783
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:10,879
Speaker 2: much when you are physically depleted and when you've had

784
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 2: no time to yourself and no time to like pause

785
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,359
Speaker 2: and stop and think. So that's that's one. I mean,

786
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 2: did you find that you you were just I mean,

787
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,839
Speaker 2: you already were physically depleted all the time because you

788
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 2: were dealing with chronic illness, But on top of that,

789
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 2: was there this additional layer of just like like a

790
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 2: total life consuming thing.

791
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 5: Yes, just yes, I was more exhausted than I've ever

792
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:40,840
Speaker 5: been in my life, to the level that like I

793
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 5: was hallucinating sometimes, like I was hearing some voices which

794
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 5: only helped kind of sell the spiritual warfare thing. Literally

795
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 5: once I started eating and sleeping again, that stuff went away.

796
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 2: I mean, but that that makes freakin sense. Like when

797
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 2: we are completely sleep deprived, we will hallucinate. And it's

798
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 2: like that is again that's so manipulative because you're putting

799
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 2: people in a state to believe the thing, and then

800
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 2: also their brain is generating things that make them believe

801
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 2: the thing. It's a fucked man.

802
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 4: It is, it really is.

803
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 2: And then I also wanted to ask more about what

804
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,240
Speaker 2: what Megan was asking earlier that I sort of paused

805
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 2: on which do you want to just ask about cold

806
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 2: reading people? Megan?

807
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 1: Oh?

808
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 3: Sure, I mean what what is cold reading people?

809
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 5: Absolutely so, I think the term mostly is associated with

810
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 5: like psychics or like fortune tellers. Like Layman's terms. Understanding

811
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 5: is like cold reading somebody is essentially using context clues

812
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:57,840
Speaker 5: and body language and general like Barnum statements or statements

813
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 5: that could apply vaguely to everyone, feel.

814
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 4: Really specific to us to.

815
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 5: Make a prediction or like a in my case, a

816
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:15,800
Speaker 5: little prophecy about somebody. And in my case, I wasn't

817
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:20,399
Speaker 5: doing it on purpose, but after reflection it is one

818
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 5: hundred percent.

819
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 4: When I was doing Wow.

820
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, I was told that I had the gift of prophecy.

821
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 4: Like in the Bible.

822
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 5: They were like, Hey, if the apostles could do it,

823
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 5: so can we. It was in the New Testament that

824
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:34,800
Speaker 5: means we can do it too. We can speak in tongues,

825
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 5: we can heal people, we can do prophecy.

826
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 4: Sure, no problem.

827
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 5: So I was, as I'm sure any listener could have

828
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 5: picked up by now a very anxious person, and that

829
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 5: that related to me constantly observing people as a kid.

830
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:58,919
Speaker 5: And I'm still a very insightful person and I'm very

831
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 5: like athetic. Some people call it like an EmPATH or

832
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 5: whatever you want to label it as, Like I've always

833
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 5: been good at like reading people and matching their energy

834
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 5: and like picking up on that sort of thing, and

835
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 5: I used it in this group. So if somebody walked

836
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 5: through the door, like a tired looking middle aged woman

837
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 5: with like a tan line on her finger where her

838
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 5: wedding ring should be, I'm like, I got you, mama,

839
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 5: Like no worries, Like God sees that, like you have

840
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 5: been working so so hard and you are underappreciated, but

841
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 5: like in his kingdom, you are first, and he just

842
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 5: wants to take care of you and wash your feet

843
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 5: and he likes you. Know.

844
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 2: What's interesting is you're describing like what Sherlock Holmes would do,

845
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 2: where you're like you're just picking up on details and

846
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 2: cues and like noe and like drawing sort of logical inferences.

847
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 2: But most people just maybe wouldn't pick up on those

848
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 2: or notice those, right.

849
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,839
Speaker 5: I think most people do it subconsciously. And this has

850
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 5: come after like years of reflecting. But that's what I did.

851
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 5: When I was doing it, I was not a where

852
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 5: that that's what I was doing. I had to really

853
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:08,320
Speaker 5: kind of pick apart and sort of deconstruct like what

854
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 5: was I doing? How did it work? Like if that

855
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:16,240
Speaker 5: wasn't the Holy Spirit, then what was it? Kind of things.

856
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,439
Speaker 5: That's that's kind of how I figured it out.

857
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:24,840
Speaker 2: In your original voicemail that you left us, you described

858
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 2: this this juxtaposition of like being on stage and talking

859
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 2: about how miraculously you were healed, and then you go

860
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 2: backstage and what throw up?

861
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 4: Yeah?

862
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, And it definitely felt like that to me, Like

863
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 5: I was I was on these live streams talking to

864
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 5: people and telling them like, yes, this really works, and

865
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 5: giving these prophetic words and standing side by side with Richard,

866
00:48:56,600 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 5: and then we have guest pastors over from Zambia and

867
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 5: I would be like prophesying next to them, and this

868
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 5: was such a big deal and I felt so favored

869
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 5: and special and I didn't want to give any of

870
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 5: that up. And then I would have to really quickly,

871
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:14,359
Speaker 5: like two step from the room so I could go

872
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:17,800
Speaker 5: and get sick, just like really quick. And it felt

873
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 5: like I was living a double life. It felt like

874
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,360
Speaker 5: I was lying or being disingenuous, but at the same time,

875
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:26,239
Speaker 5: kind of what you alluded to earlier. It's like this

876
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 5: hypervigilance of like, if I am getting sick, I must

877
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 5: be sinning or doing something wrong, so it's my fault,

878
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 5: so I shouldn't acknowledge this, Or if I'm getting sick,

879
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 5: it's spiritual warfare, which I guess is kind of a

880
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 5: compliment because that means that I must be something special.

881
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 5: I shouldn't complain.

882
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 2: About it, because I mean, Saint's coming after you, because

883
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:50,840
Speaker 2: you're actually doing such a good job.

884
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:54,279
Speaker 5: Exactly, So I just have to kind of keep trucking on.

885
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 5: And anytime I would mention like, hey, I'm feeling a

886
00:49:57,600 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 5: little bit weary, Hey I'm feeling a little bit like

887
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 5: sad or angry or hurt or in pain, all of

888
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 5: those were so negative that like they were also signs

889
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:11,279
Speaker 5: of spiritual warfare, and they would lead to kind of

890
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:13,839
Speaker 5: more ministry and counseling, And at that point I didn't

891
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 5: really want to do any more extra ministry and counseling,

892
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 5: so I kind of bottle them up and I really

893
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 5: only wanted to present like happiness to them and success,

894
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 5: so that they would kind of like give me a

895
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:33,239
Speaker 5: little bit of space, as it were, right, So it

896
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 5: kind of all just became this toxic bomb. And I

897
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 5: am automatically just a person who tends to blame myself

898
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:44,719
Speaker 5: for things anyway, So religious upbringing too will do.

899
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 4: That for you.

900
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 2: Yeah.

901
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 5: I was kind of just a primed target. So I'm like, oh,

902
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,840
Speaker 5: I'm ill and in pain and it's my fault anyway,

903
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:54,399
Speaker 5: and only I can kind of fix it.

904
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 4: Oh cool, all right, gotcha.

905
00:50:56,400 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 5: I will wear myself out trying to figure this because.

906
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just it's so amazing to hear this

907
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:08,320
Speaker 2: from your perspective, because you know, we'll talk about fake

908
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 2: healers and you know, these like miracle healing claims, and yeah,

909
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 2: we just don't often get to hear the perspective of

910
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 2: the person who who is making the claim but is

911
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 2: actually still sick.

912
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:25,839
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's that's part of why I reached out

913
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 5: to you guys.

914
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 4: Is this.

915
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 6: It?

916
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:33,359
Speaker 5: It can seem really really, I guess entertaining on one

917
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:35,840
Speaker 5: hand to watch like Peter pop Off hit somebody with

918
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:38,399
Speaker 5: his like blue suit jacket and like kind of laugh

919
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 5: on YouTube, and it is I've watched those videos, it's

920
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 5: very entertaining, like what is he doing?

921
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 4: Who could have fallen for that? Like one I've.

922
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 5: Been quote unquote slain in the spirit. Somebody hit me

923
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 5: in the forehead once and I did fall over and

924
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:56,279
Speaker 5: pass out. I don't know, I don't know. It's a

925
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:59,959
Speaker 5: it's a crowd pressure thing, like not every evening fake.

926
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:02,839
Speaker 5: If you're in front of a crowd of people and

927
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:05,799
Speaker 5: somebody next to you, if they get hit in the

928
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 5: forehead they fall over and pass out. Something in your

929
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:12,359
Speaker 5: brain says, Okay, you fall over and pass out too, right, right,

930
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 5: It's just something about it. But the more important thing

931
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 5: is for me, this is not a victimless crime. This

932
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 5: is not just oh, a huckster guy making money on tides.

933
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 5: There are people in this audience of faith healing victims

934
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 5: who are hoping desperately for a cure. And something that

935
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 5: faith healers are robbing their victims of is time with

936
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 5: actual healthcare practitioners, and that is I think one of

937
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 5: the most harmful and insidious things that happens still and

938
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 5: happened with me because the entire time I was there,

939
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 5: I was encouraged, like I said, not to sleep, not

940
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:06,359
Speaker 5: to eat, or was in a high stress situation, which

941
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 5: is not good for Crohn's disease or any autoimmune disorder

942
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:12,799
Speaker 5: or anyone just in general. And I was also I

943
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 5: wasn't told, but I was highly encouraged to not take

944
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 5: any of my medication and to stop.

945
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 2: Saying, oh no, oh, no oh.

946
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,359
Speaker 5: A healed person doesn't need that stuff. That's what I

947
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:28,440
Speaker 5: was told. If I'm healed, then I don't need a doctor.

948
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 5: If I'm healed, then I don't need medication.

949
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 2: I mean, has anyone been sued for encouraging their like

950
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 2: parishioners or members or whatever, to stop taking their medication,

951
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:43,280
Speaker 2: Because if not, I would really like to see that happen.

952
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:46,359
Speaker 5: I would like to see that happen as well. I'm

953
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 5: not certain I do know in my personal case, Like

954
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 5: it's not written down anywhere. You know, you need a

955
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 5: paper trail or some sort of audio on that account.

956
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 5: But like even even just the time that I wasted

957
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:01,800
Speaker 5: with them, even if I had been taking my medication

958
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:05,560
Speaker 5: and we've been sleeping and I've been eating, like, I

959
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 5: spent all that time believing that this fake healing ministry

960
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:13,719
Speaker 5: would heal my Crohn's disease when I could have spent

961
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 5: three years with a gastroinrologist not doing permanent damage to

962
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 5: my gastrointestinal tract. I could have been doing maintenance medication.

963
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 5: I could have been I could have been eating a

964
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 5: proper diet anything. And there were people in there with

965
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:34,160
Speaker 5: worse conditions. And that's not to mention people with depression,

966
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 5: people with anxiety. I had untreated depression and anxiety the

967
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:42,360
Speaker 5: entire time I was in that group. When I left,

968
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:46,200
Speaker 5: I left because I was face down on the floor

969
00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:51,719
Speaker 5: crying out to God, and I said, God, I am miserable,

970
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:54,239
Speaker 5: and if I don't leave, I am not certain I

971
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:55,880
Speaker 5: will be on this planet anymore.

972
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 4: I have to go.

973
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:00,760
Speaker 5: I have to leave this group so I can stay

974
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 5: alive because of chromes or because of depression.

975
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 4: Literally wow.

976
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 5: I was miserable, and I was convinced that if I left,

977
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:14,919
Speaker 5: I would be eternally damned forever. And I asked him

978
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:17,319
Speaker 5: to give me any sort of word or sign that

979
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 5: I should stay there, and he didn't, And I asked

980
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:23,760
Speaker 5: him to cure my Chrohn's disease because of the three

981
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:27,480
Speaker 5: years that I had spent with this group and dedicated

982
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 5: my time and my life and ostracized myself from everyone

983
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:34,399
Speaker 5: that I knew, and also just as a side note

984
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 5: that we didn't even touch on, had gotten rid of

985
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:41,600
Speaker 5: a lot of my stuff because I know, like they

986
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:45,400
Speaker 5: believed that like Pokemon and Tensions of Dragons and video

987
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:48,800
Speaker 5: games and books and all types of stuff were sinful

988
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:50,959
Speaker 5: and I was trying to find the root of my sin.

989
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:53,000
Speaker 5: So I'd gotten rid of a lot of my.

990
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:55,400
Speaker 6: Stuff my sin.

991
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:58,520
Speaker 5: So like I had nothing, I had nobody. I was

992
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 5: living out of a suitcase like I had just nothing, had.

993
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:04,799
Speaker 3: No game or interesting.

994
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:07,400
Speaker 4: I mean, it's all of my stuff.

995
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 6: I just had me with diarrhea on the floor of

996
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 6: this guy's house, like just crying, and I was like, God,

997
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 6: heal my crones disease or I'm out of here.

998
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:23,640
Speaker 5: And I guess I'll go to Hell for it. And

999
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:25,719
Speaker 5: I'm like, and I meant it, and I thought that's

1000
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:28,800
Speaker 5: where I would go if I left and he didn't

1001
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 5: heal my crones disease.

1002
00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 4: So I left.

1003
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:35,319
Speaker 1: I just I want to like put in here really

1004
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:38,319
Speaker 1: quickly because I don't think we touch on this, have

1005
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:40,600
Speaker 1: ever touched on this before, but that's something I had

1006
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:42,279
Speaker 1: to do as well. And I read about it a

1007
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:43,840
Speaker 1: lot where people are just like, I guess I'll go

1008
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:46,240
Speaker 1: to hell. Like it is the stuff that people leaving

1009
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:51,160
Speaker 1: colts sometimes have to tell and it's just so strange

1010
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 1: that you have it has to get that bad.

1011
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:58,719
Speaker 5: Literally, I was like, I guess this means my eternal

1012
00:56:58,840 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 5: soul is forfeit.

1013
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I mean what a what a sign of

1014
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:08,600
Speaker 2: the level of desperation. Though, if you really believe that

1015
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:11,279
Speaker 2: that's what's gonna happen to you, that's like that must

1016
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 2: be the most ultimate rock bottom because there's no other

1017
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:17,160
Speaker 2: world in which you would accept that if if that's

1018
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:20,240
Speaker 2: your belief system. So this like you were just so

1019
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 2: worn down, and I'm so sorry you went through all

1020
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 2: of that because that's just like all of that together physically, emotionally, spiritually, socially.

1021
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 3: I mean, I can't believe you like you. That's crazy.

1022
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 5: Honestly, I don't know how I did either, And I

1023
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 5: have to remind myselflf that I did that and that

1024
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:44,280
Speaker 5: that was me I have it was. It was the

1025
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 5: most difficult decision I have ever made in my life. Wow,

1026
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 5: I cannot stress. If if you haven't gone through, if

1027
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:54,080
Speaker 5: you haven't gone through leading the vehicle, you can't know

1028
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:57,720
Speaker 5: what It's like I I literally thought that I was

1029
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:00,800
Speaker 5: damning myself to leave this grew and that I.

1030
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:02,880
Speaker 4: Was abandoning my eternal mission.

1031
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:06,720
Speaker 5: And I knew that I was going to lose these

1032
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 5: people that I had come to love as my family,

1033
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:13,440
Speaker 5: and that they would be massively disappointed in me at best,

1034
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:17,080
Speaker 5: and at worst maybe they wouldn't I didn't know at

1035
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:21,520
Speaker 5: the time that they wouldn't speak to me again. But yeah,

1036
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 5: that was That was one of the signs as well

1037
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:25,920
Speaker 5: that I learned later, because I didn't know at the

1038
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:29,160
Speaker 5: time that it was a cult. I still thought it

1039
00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 5: was just a church. That was one of the first

1040
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 5: signs for me that something wasn't right was when I left,

1041
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:37,480
Speaker 5: no one spoke to me again.

1042
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:38,920
Speaker 3: Wow.

1043
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:44,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I I don't want to take too

1044
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:46,760
Speaker 2: much of your time, and my computer is running out

1045
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:52,000
Speaker 2: of battery, but it can you give us like the

1046
00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:55,280
Speaker 2: nutshell version of how you got out of that place

1047
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 2: and how you like clawde your way back to healthiness

1048
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:01,280
Speaker 2: both emotionally and physically to health.

1049
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:04,880
Speaker 5: Health Well, gosh, I'm trying to think.

1050
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 2: I mean, oh, go ahead, no, I mean, where did

1051
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:12,200
Speaker 2: you you still have did you still have a job,

1052
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:13,600
Speaker 2: did you have somewhere to go.

1053
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:18,520
Speaker 5: I did still have a job, so I because I

1054
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:22,120
Speaker 5: kept working that whole time. And I don't know if

1055
00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 5: this will make the funnel cut or not. Just so

1056
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:26,840
Speaker 5: you guys are aware, I came this close to quitting

1057
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:30,480
Speaker 5: my job. I came this close because they wanted me

1058
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:33,760
Speaker 5: to go to Zambia with them, and I asked my

1059
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 5: job for like six weeks off to go to Zambia,

1060
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:39,040
Speaker 5: and my job said no, which is weird.

1061
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:42,720
Speaker 3: Weird, I'm off.

1062
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:48,120
Speaker 4: God, rude, so rude.

1063
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:50,080
Speaker 5: And I asked my dad if he thought it was

1064
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:52,760
Speaker 5: a good idea because I was still talking to my

1065
00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 5: parents secretly on the side a little bit. And he says, no,

1066
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:58,760
Speaker 5: absolutely not. And I said, Dad, God told me to.

1067
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:01,960
Speaker 5: Then he said no, and I was like, you're weird.

1068
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 5: So my parents were still there for me, and that's great.

1069
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:09,280
Speaker 4: Yes.

1070
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:13,600
Speaker 5: And my brother was, as it turns out, kicked out

1071
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:17,880
Speaker 5: of the group. He had not I didn't know. I

1072
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:22,920
Speaker 5: was told that he quit, and apparently he and I

1073
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:27,560
Speaker 5: just weren't keeping good contact with each other. And my

1074
01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:30,440
Speaker 5: memory of that time with my contact with him was

1075
01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:32,800
Speaker 5: just I thought that he was upset with me and

1076
01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:35,160
Speaker 5: that he had had a big falling out with Richard.

1077
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 5: The way that it was told to me by Richard

1078
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:40,240
Speaker 5: and by the group was that he had he had

1079
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:43,200
Speaker 5: said some very rude things to Richard and about the group,

1080
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:45,320
Speaker 5: and that he had left of his own accord. And

1081
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:47,360
Speaker 5: I only just found out a couple of years ago

1082
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:50,840
Speaker 5: that apparently he was kicked out against his will for

1083
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:52,360
Speaker 5: trying to get me out of the group.

1084
01:00:53,560 --> 01:00:56,280
Speaker 2: Wow wow.

1085
01:00:56,880 --> 01:01:01,200
Speaker 5: So but yeah, so I because I'd been living on

1086
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:05,640
Speaker 5: people's couches but still had a job. I had money saved,

1087
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:09,640
Speaker 5: and I hadn't tied all of it away. I was

1088
01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 5: tithing and tithing more than ten percent. I think I

1089
01:01:13,080 --> 01:01:16,720
Speaker 5: was tithing. They were not super pushy about money, admittedly,

1090
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:20,000
Speaker 5: but I felt compelled to tie that. I was tithing

1091
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:23,480
Speaker 5: like thirty percent, which is still a lot. So it's

1092
01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:23,960
Speaker 5: a lot.

1093
01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:24,720
Speaker 4: It's a lot.

1094
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:27,320
Speaker 5: And I was buying their like books and stuff like

1095
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:30,760
Speaker 5: that that they sell on their website. But I didn't

1096
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:33,680
Speaker 5: feel at the time, I didn't feel super pressured. Maybe

1097
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:36,040
Speaker 5: there was a little pressure to buy the books. I'm

1098
01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:40,920
Speaker 5: still working on some stuff from that. But I had

1099
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:44,320
Speaker 5: money saved, so I got myself an apartment and I

1100
01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 5: stayed in it with my brother, and we were roommates,

1101
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:50,360
Speaker 5: and then I was like, you know what, I don't

1102
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:54,160
Speaker 5: have any freaking friends in Florida anymore because oops, I

1103
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:56,560
Speaker 5: got rid of them all while I was in my

1104
01:01:56,680 --> 01:01:57,880
Speaker 5: weird church and.

1105
01:01:57,880 --> 01:01:59,360
Speaker 4: At the time I still thought it was church.

1106
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:03,800
Speaker 5: So I got an opportunity with a friend from undergraduate

1107
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:09,600
Speaker 5: who got a full ride scholarship to the IU law program.

1108
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:12,800
Speaker 5: And she said, Hey, I know you've never been to Indiana,

1109
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:15,760
Speaker 5: but it sounds like you've just been through some weird shit.

1110
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:18,680
Speaker 5: Do you want to come be my roommate up in Indiana.

1111
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:20,640
Speaker 5: I don't know where you've been for three years. Could

1112
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:22,640
Speaker 5: you stop talking to everybody, but you want to come

1113
01:02:22,680 --> 01:02:25,040
Speaker 5: live in Indiana with me? And I said, yes, desperately,

1114
01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:28,760
Speaker 5: let me get out of this state. I went to Indiana,

1115
01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:33,440
Speaker 5: of all places, and I just kind of started over.

1116
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:39,520
Speaker 5: And from there I just started kind of clowing my

1117
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:43,080
Speaker 5: way up and I made new friends and slowly let

1118
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:47,520
Speaker 5: pieces of myself trickle back together and slowly started exposing

1119
01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:52,400
Speaker 5: myself to the idea of therapy and the idea of

1120
01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:55,640
Speaker 5: what depression and anxiety was. Because I still didn't know

1121
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:59,040
Speaker 5: my roommate at the time. Blessed her was very familiar

1122
01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:02,120
Speaker 5: with mental health, so she started slowly introducing me to

1123
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:07,440
Speaker 5: what those ideas were. And as I started sharing pieces

1124
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:10,080
Speaker 5: of myself, people were like, hey, that that sounds messed

1125
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 5: up what you're describing. I don't think that was a church.

1126
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:15,440
Speaker 5: And I was like, no, it's just a church, like

1127
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:17,200
Speaker 5: an intense church, but it was just a church, and

1128
01:03:17,240 --> 01:03:22,400
Speaker 5: they're like, no, I don't think it was. So just worked,

1129
01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:25,000
Speaker 5: kept my head down, started dating.

1130
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:28,440
Speaker 2: Ladies nice nice.

1131
01:03:28,640 --> 01:03:32,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, me the woman who had become my wife, who's

1132
01:03:32,680 --> 01:03:35,600
Speaker 5: in the other room right now, attending to our dog

1133
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:40,760
Speaker 5: and making dinner bless her. Yeah yeah, and uh yeah,

1134
01:03:41,040 --> 01:03:45,840
Speaker 5: just working really hard. Started going to therapy covid HIT,

1135
01:03:46,400 --> 01:03:51,200
Speaker 5: started trying to deal with that. Mostly just being patient

1136
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:59,120
Speaker 5: with myself and doing a lot of research really helped

1137
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:02,960
Speaker 5: for my self personally. Having the terms to describe what

1138
01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:06,960
Speaker 5: I went through really really helped me out a lot.

1139
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:09,720
Speaker 5: And once I got a handle on the idea of

1140
01:04:09,800 --> 01:04:15,400
Speaker 5: like that was not quote unquote normal, that was a

1141
01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:17,200
Speaker 5: high pressure group was the.

1142
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:19,520
Speaker 4: Term that I was most comfortable with for a long time.

1143
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:23,960
Speaker 5: And the term itself for that doesn't necessarily matter, but

1144
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:28,080
Speaker 5: like just letting myself get comfortable with like, okay, I

1145
01:04:28,080 --> 01:04:29,880
Speaker 5: don't know if that's what it was, what does a

1146
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:30,959
Speaker 5: cult even mean?

1147
01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:32,200
Speaker 4: Like okay?

1148
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:35,880
Speaker 5: And I started slowly listening to podcasts and reading books

1149
01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:41,280
Speaker 5: and just getting acquainted with other survivors' stories and hearing

1150
01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:45,000
Speaker 5: how similar my story felt and sounded to theirs. That's

1151
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:47,080
Speaker 5: how I found you guys. That's how I found so

1152
01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:52,040
Speaker 5: many other similar podcasts. And I appreciate you guys' podcasts.

1153
01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:56,000
Speaker 5: And that's also I reached out because the interviews really

1154
01:04:56,120 --> 01:04:59,160
Speaker 5: strike a chord in me. And I was like, if

1155
01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:07,919
Speaker 5: if my story helps anybody else at all, like realize, like, hey,

1156
01:05:08,040 --> 01:05:12,680
Speaker 5: my church is weird healing ministry thing may not completely

1157
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:15,840
Speaker 5: be on the up and up, then it's it's worth

1158
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:18,440
Speaker 5: the discomfort of sharing the story.

1159
01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:22,400
Speaker 4: So I think, like, yeah.

1160
01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:26,760
Speaker 5: Just a lot of reading, a lot of a lot

1161
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:31,040
Speaker 5: of therapy, a lot of supportive partners and friends and

1162
01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:36,920
Speaker 5: the opposite of isolation. Yeah that works of friends and

1163
01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:42,600
Speaker 5: family who you trust. I just recently, through the International

1164
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:48,920
Speaker 5: Cult Support Network, found a cult survivor group that meets

1165
01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:51,080
Speaker 5: once a month, So that has.

1166
01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:53,120
Speaker 2: Been amazing, amazing.

1167
01:05:53,760 --> 01:05:55,880
Speaker 5: I'm just making myself get out there.

1168
01:05:56,600 --> 01:06:00,080
Speaker 2: Well, I just yeah, I can't think you enough for

1169
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:03,800
Speaker 2: calling us and for sharing your story, especially for two freakin' hours.

1170
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:07,520
Speaker 2: It's so generous of you. But but for real like yours,

1171
01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:09,720
Speaker 2: I think that people will there will be a lot

1172
01:06:09,720 --> 01:06:11,320
Speaker 2: of people who will resonate with what you have to

1173
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:13,720
Speaker 2: say because it is a very particular experience that we

1174
01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:16,400
Speaker 2: haven't touched on very much. And I don't know. I

1175
01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:18,600
Speaker 2: just think you're amazing, and I hope you continue to

1176
01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:24,200
Speaker 2: share your story and you know, keep on the healing journey.

1177
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:27,200
Speaker 3: First in line to buy the book if it ever happened.

1178
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:28,800
Speaker 2: Seriously, please write a book.

1179
01:06:30,040 --> 01:06:32,560
Speaker 5: I will consider it. But thank you so much, and

1180
01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:36,160
Speaker 5: hopefully healing Journey spiritual no longer healing by.

1181
01:06:36,080 --> 01:06:38,240
Speaker 2: Laying on hands exactly.

1182
01:06:39,200 --> 01:06:43,960
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, in the non magical sense, unless it's a massage.

1183
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:44,920
Speaker 4: I'm not laying.

1184
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:49,240
Speaker 2: Do you want to share your social media or you

1185
01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:50,320
Speaker 2: want to keep low profile.

1186
01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:53,160
Speaker 5: I've been thinking about that.

1187
01:06:54,360 --> 01:06:55,080
Speaker 2: Totally up to you.

1188
01:06:56,680 --> 01:07:00,800
Speaker 5: I will. I will share my social I will share

1189
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:04,280
Speaker 5: my social It's like the eighty people who follow me

1190
01:07:04,320 --> 01:07:05,520
Speaker 5: on Instagram anyway.

1191
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:06,800
Speaker 3: Great.

1192
01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:08,400
Speaker 4: I deleted all my.

1193
01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:11,560
Speaker 5: Other social media profiles anyway, so that works out.

1194
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:14,680
Speaker 2: Oh, so tell us your where people can find you

1195
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:16,880
Speaker 2: on Instagram, so it's.

1196
01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:23,560
Speaker 5: At Lava la va underscore t ea so it's the

1197
01:07:23,600 --> 01:07:25,280
Speaker 5: phonetic pronunciation of my name.

1198
01:07:26,360 --> 01:07:30,560
Speaker 2: Wonderful, awesome. Well, thanks again so much. This has been

1199
01:07:30,760 --> 01:07:33,760
Speaker 2: awesome and I'm going to go follow you right now.

1200
01:07:34,320 --> 01:07:36,160
Speaker 5: Oh well, thank you guys so much for having me,

1201
01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:37,560
Speaker 5: and thank you for the podcast.

1202
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:39,120
Speaker 4: I really appreciate.

1203
01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:42,120
Speaker 5: Having a place to listen to other survivor stories.

1204
01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:44,920
Speaker 2: And there we have it. That's our interview with Kaitlin.

1205
01:07:45,080 --> 01:07:48,200
Speaker 2: Thanks again to Kaitlin for joining us and calling in

1206
01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:50,480
Speaker 2: with her story. It was I'm so glad she did.

1207
01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:53,880
Speaker 3: We have so many listener stories to get to. They're amazing, dude.

1208
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:56,760
Speaker 2: So many of our listeners have such crazy stories and

1209
01:07:56,880 --> 01:07:58,800
Speaker 2: have overcome so much to Thank you guys for all

1210
01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:02,360
Speaker 2: well for listening. Megan, So, I guess what I'd like

1211
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:06,200
Speaker 2: to know from you this week is do you feel

1212
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:08,960
Speaker 2: that you are naturally good at cold reading? I don't

1213
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:11,680
Speaker 2: mean consciously, but just like subconsciously, do you feel you're

1214
01:08:11,680 --> 01:08:12,160
Speaker 2: good at it?

1215
01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:12,280
Speaker 5: So?

1216
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:14,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, she kind of just spoke about how she could.

1217
01:08:14,440 --> 01:08:16,639
Speaker 1: She didn't she wasn't meaning to do it with any

1218
01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:18,479
Speaker 1: il will, but she kind of just knew what people

1219
01:08:18,800 --> 01:08:20,720
Speaker 1: needed or wanted she.

1220
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:22,360
Speaker 2: Kick up on little ces.

1221
01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:27,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think I am probably I feel

1222
01:08:27,320 --> 01:08:31,320
Speaker 1: like I'm very intuitive, but I've never had to do

1223
01:08:31,360 --> 01:08:35,160
Speaker 1: it under any sort of pressure certainly, yeah, but yeah,

1224
01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:39,200
Speaker 1: being a therapist, I felt like I often was like, oh,

1225
01:08:39,280 --> 01:08:43,960
Speaker 1: they just scratched their leg when I asked about their mom.

1226
01:08:44,360 --> 01:08:48,320
Speaker 3: Really know, so like I can go there, But I was,

1227
01:08:48,680 --> 01:08:50,400
Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know if I'm good at it.

1228
01:08:50,479 --> 01:08:53,280
Speaker 2: That is kind of the job of therapist. Not this

1229
01:08:53,320 --> 01:08:57,519
Speaker 2: current therapist who's new. But my guy was with for years, great,

1230
01:08:57,600 --> 01:09:00,920
Speaker 2: great guy, Love him. He was so oh good at

1231
01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:04,120
Speaker 2: picking up on the second that my body language even

1232
01:09:04,360 --> 01:09:07,200
Speaker 2: slightly changed, Like I would think I had made no

1233
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:10,320
Speaker 2: shift at all, and he would instantly just know. He

1234
01:09:10,400 --> 01:09:12,639
Speaker 2: was like, I say, some sadness in your face. I'm like, God,

1235
01:09:12,760 --> 01:09:16,280
Speaker 2: damn it. Yeah, please stop forcing me to like actually

1236
01:09:16,320 --> 01:09:19,479
Speaker 2: confront my feelings. But that is you know that. I

1237
01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:21,800
Speaker 2: guess we don't think of it as cold reading, and

1238
01:09:22,080 --> 01:09:24,160
Speaker 2: nor should we, but it is kind of the same

1239
01:09:24,200 --> 01:09:27,439
Speaker 2: skill where you like just notice people's little cues and

1240
01:09:27,479 --> 01:09:29,120
Speaker 2: body language and expressions.

1241
01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:32,000
Speaker 1: I feel a shift in somebody's energy as soon as

1242
01:09:32,040 --> 01:09:34,160
Speaker 1: it happens, you know, like, oh that they're not okay,

1243
01:09:34,240 --> 01:09:35,920
Speaker 1: or like, oh they're happier, I'd.

1244
01:09:35,800 --> 01:09:38,559
Speaker 3: Like, I just yeah, I'm codepundent.

1245
01:09:41,920 --> 01:09:46,519
Speaker 1: And uh yeah, So could I be a psychic Probably not,

1246
01:09:46,960 --> 01:09:50,280
Speaker 1: or a faith yeller no, but just in my daily life,

1247
01:09:50,320 --> 01:09:53,920
Speaker 1: I'm I'm not completely oblivious to what people are yeah

1248
01:09:54,120 --> 01:09:54,679
Speaker 1: going through.

1249
01:09:54,680 --> 01:09:56,599
Speaker 2: But I will say I'm I would probably be bad

1250
01:09:56,600 --> 01:09:58,639
Speaker 2: at cold reading because, like she talked about how she

1251
01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:00,920
Speaker 2: would maybe see some one used to have a ring

1252
01:10:00,960 --> 01:10:02,920
Speaker 2: on their finger and she would notice that detail. I

1253
01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:05,639
Speaker 2: forget to even ever look at people's rings on their fingers.

1254
01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:08,200
Speaker 2: So every time someone tells me they're married, I'm shocked.

1255
01:10:08,880 --> 01:10:11,280
Speaker 2: I just like have no, Like, it doesn't ever occur

1256
01:10:11,320 --> 01:10:13,480
Speaker 2: to me that people are married for some reason.

1257
01:10:13,479 --> 01:10:16,559
Speaker 1: Because we live in Los Angeles, right, because no one

1258
01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:20,320
Speaker 1: is married, yeah, thirties and forties.

1259
01:10:20,680 --> 01:10:22,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I'm bad at cold reading, I think, but

1260
01:10:22,920 --> 01:10:26,120
Speaker 2: good at picking up on Jack's bad moods that I

1261
01:10:26,200 --> 01:10:26,720
Speaker 2: am good at.

1262
01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:31,960
Speaker 1: Well, that's fortunate because yeah, if you need to be

1263
01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:33,560
Speaker 1: able to cold read your partner.

1264
01:10:33,280 --> 01:10:35,400
Speaker 2: At least, right, Yeah, I mean I think that's just

1265
01:10:35,520 --> 01:10:37,800
Speaker 2: called intimacy being in a relationship.

1266
01:10:37,880 --> 01:10:42,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, whatever the case. Caylen went through absolute hell,

1267
01:10:42,760 --> 01:10:45,960
Speaker 1: and I am so impressed with how she's come out

1268
01:10:45,960 --> 01:10:48,679
Speaker 1: of it. So yeah, again, thank you all for sending

1269
01:10:48,720 --> 01:10:51,519
Speaker 1: in your stories and hopefully we can get to more.

1270
01:10:52,080 --> 01:10:55,439
Speaker 1: And Caitlyn's really really shocked me, so same.

1271
01:10:55,720 --> 01:10:58,479
Speaker 2: And y'all, I keep forgetting to talk about our merch.

1272
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:00,640
Speaker 2: We are so bad at talking about our merch. But

1273
01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:04,080
Speaker 2: we have some really good merch we do, and the

1274
01:11:04,160 --> 01:11:06,519
Speaker 2: link if you want to buy some is bit dot

1275
01:11:06,680 --> 01:11:10,799
Speaker 2: l y slash trust Me Merch. And there's of course

1276
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:14,799
Speaker 2: our main imagery, but we also have shirts and basically

1277
01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:17,240
Speaker 2: anything you want with pictures of cult leaders where there's

1278
01:11:17,280 --> 01:11:21,120
Speaker 2: like graffiti drawn on them because we don't like them.

1279
01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:23,200
Speaker 3: We don't like you, we don't like them.

1280
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:26,439
Speaker 2: We have shirts that say trust me not we have

1281
01:11:26,560 --> 01:11:32,000
Speaker 2: shirts with a really cool, like old timey ritual imagery

1282
01:11:32,040 --> 01:11:34,679
Speaker 2: that says never trust me, So go check it out.

1283
01:11:35,200 --> 01:11:37,880
Speaker 2: Represent it's there if you want it or don't.

1284
01:11:38,040 --> 01:11:41,920
Speaker 1: Either way, either way, we're just glad that you're listening

1285
01:11:42,360 --> 01:11:45,040
Speaker 1: and we can't wait to see you again next week

1286
01:11:45,360 --> 01:11:48,840
Speaker 1: and as always, remember to follow your gut, watch out

1287
01:11:48,920 --> 01:11:50,400
Speaker 1: for red flags.

1288
01:11:50,080 --> 01:11:58,719
Speaker 2: And never ever trust me. Bye. Trust Me is produced

1289
01:11:58,720 --> 01:12:02,000
Speaker 2: by Kirstin Woodward Rap and Steve Delemator.

1290
01:12:01,560 --> 01:12:03,479
Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

1291
01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:05,880
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1292
01:12:06,040 --> 01:12:08,920
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1293
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:12,439
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

1294
01:12:12,520 --> 01:12:14,200
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

1295
01:12:14,360 --> 01:12:17,680
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1296
01:12:17,439 --> 01:12:21,040
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1297
01:12:21,200 --> 01:12:22,240
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1298
01:12:22,400 --> 01:12:24,719
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.