WEBVTT - Ep. 460: Render - Cold Cases and Civil War 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:17.120 My name is Clay Knucomb and this is a production 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:20.520 of the Bear Grease podcast called the Bear Grease Render 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:24.119 where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:27.760 scenes of the actual Bear Grease podcast. Brought to you 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:31.440 by to Covi's Boots. I'm a cowboy boot man and 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:34.599 I've been wearing to Covis for years. The most comfortable 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:45.440 boot I've ever put on. Good boots for good times. Man. 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:49.680 Am I excited to talk about two things today, one 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:53.680 being the Civil War which has been just like been 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:58.880 burning in my bones for years now, finally get to 0:00:58.920 --> 0:00:59.960 talk about it with somebody. 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:03.480 Thank you all for being here and we're just. 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:08.240 Esteemed panel of civil war experts have gathered. 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:10.160 Ye. Yes. 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:14.160 Secondly, very excited to have in the COVID hot seat today. 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:19.639 Jordan Sellers of Blood Trails Meat eaters acclaimed true crime 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:24.560 podcast Blood Trails now on It's how many seasons have 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:25.000 we done? 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:28.000 Second season? Second in the middle of our second season, 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:32.399 so six episodes into season two, so now there are 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:36.039 fourteen episodes. So if you haven't started, you can and 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:39.360 you're you know, going on a road trip summer. We're 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:43.200 all taking trips to the beach sitting on the mower exactly. 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:47.720 You got fourteen episodes. That's over fourteen hours of interesting 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:50.680 crime stories. Yeah, thank you. 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:55.120 Also joined by Josh Lambridge Spilmmaker and his wife, Christy 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:56.040 Lambridge spilm. 0:01:55.920 --> 0:01:59.960 Hello, Hello, Christie Lanforde. I've really been working on my 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:01.200 mustache player. 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:07.800 And my lovely wife, doctor Misty nukelem Hell. You two 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:11.200 of the biggest Civil War buffs I know. Christy and 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:14.640 Misty are here today to hash it out. 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:17.440 Southern bells. 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:20.360 You don't know, never described like that. 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:24.880 It's it's going to be good. So Christy, you're you're 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:26.600 a big fan of Jordan's p. 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:29.760 Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, Jordan, you don't know this, 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:32.359 but you kept me company during some of the darkest 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:37.280 moments of my life, which were which we're cleaning out 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:37.959 our shop. 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:40.960 Yes, Josh, that was. 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:43.480 Almost a true true crime podcast because she wanted to 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:43.880 kill me. 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:48.280 A crime scene. Hey, I'm you know, I'll find out 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:48.760 who did it. 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:53.000 That's that's the good thing. It's kind of like having 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:55.640 I don't know if having a buddy that's a really 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:59.360 good detective is better than having a buddy that's like 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:02.880 a good detector. Do you understand like if if I 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:05.679 were killed, like Jordan just said, oh, I'd find out 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:08.080 who did it. And it's like, I mean that helps 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:11.160 me a little bit, I mean not a lot better. 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:15.120 I would at least tell everyone about, you know, whether 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:17.840 or not someone else found out who did it. You know, 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:20.000 if it was a cold case, I tell them, and 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:22.119 if it you know, you found the murder, I'd tell them. 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:24.600 So yeah, But I mean what I'm saying is like, 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:27.040 probably a better friend would just be like a bodyguard 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:31.960 play yeah, bodyguard essentially. And that's and that is why 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:35.240 that we've brought Josh here today. He started a new 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:37.440 podcast called Meat Eater's Bodyguard. 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:41.040 That's basically what I do for Clay when we go 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:42.920 on interviews. I'm there as the muscle. 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:44.040 Okay, you're the muscle. 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:45.840 Yeah. 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:48.440 So Jordan and I just had a brief conversation a 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:50.720 minute ago. I asked him before we started, I said, 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:53.000 are you ever concerned? And this is a question that 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:55.840 people ask me from the beginning of Bear Grease, But 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:57.800 they say, are you ever concerned You're going to run 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:01.840 out of content? And I said, I say no, But 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:07.480 my field of interest is broader, much broader than yours. 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:11.600 Yeah, and you say, what do you say, I mean, 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:15.120 not anytime soon. I have a list right now and 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:19.039 I think there's over eighty stories for real on it. 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:19.960 Yeah, for real. 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:22.880 And my field of interest is pretty narrow. So we're 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:28.039 looking at people outside, so hunters, anglers, campers, hikers, and 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:32.159 some type of crime has been committed or is suspected 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:36.040 of being committed. So like this season, we covered a 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:40.560 case of a hunter up in Maine who disappeared, never 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:43.600 been found. We don't know a crime has been committed, 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:47.880 but it's very suspicious because they've searched those woods over 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:50.719 and over and over again and they've never found him. 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:53.720 And he had he just had cancer. He was very weak. 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:57.280 It's very unlikely he left. He was seventy years old, 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:01.320 and so they're pretty com confident something happened to him 0:05:01.320 --> 0:05:04.560 in those woods and then he was removed in some way. 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:07.520 So those are the types of stories that we cover, 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:11.520 and there are unfortunately quite a few of them. But yeah, 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:13.040 we're not gonna be running out anytime soon. 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:16.200 Would you say that most of the stories that you 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:21.599 have done thus far there has been an element of 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:26.120 foul play and air on the part of the person 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:30.880 that died, I. 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:33.920 Would say largely. No, most of them have. 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:36.840 Just completely innocent, just victims. 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:40.159 Yeah, I mean. So, the episode that came out this 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:43.080 week is from down where I am, near where I 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:47.000 am in East Texas, and it was of a big 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:50.440 time fisherman. He loved to fish out on Lake sam Rayburn, 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:52.240 which is the lake he had a lake house out there. 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:56.240 He disappeared. His truck was found burned out, his boat 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:59.680 was found shot. It was one of those pontoon boats. 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:02.760 Someone had shot the pontoons in an effort to sink it, 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:05.200 but it didn't sink, because that's not how those boats. 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:07.960 Apparently I didn't know this before, but you can shoot 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:11.440 those boats and they won't sink. And so foul play 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:15.800 is suspected. And the more I talk with people about 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:19.039 this guy, the more I come to find out he 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:24.800 kind of a larger than life personality. Everyone knew him 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:30.080 in town. But maybe a bit of a lady's man. 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:33.520 Those words, those specific words were used multiple times by 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:37.720 different people to describe him. But he was also married. Also, 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:41.760 I found out he was an outlaw, so a guy 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:45.000 who maybe didn't care so much about wildlife laws. So 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:46.560 we don't know what happened to him. We don't know 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:51.560 why he disappeared. We don't know anything, really, but it's 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:55.800 conceivable that something he got into is what led to 0:06:55.839 --> 0:07:00.360 his disappearance and presumed death. So there are some worries 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:03.120 like that, but usually it's someone who was just in 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:04.840 the wrong place, at the wrong time, at the wrong 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:06.720 person out in the woods. 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:14.320 Okay, that's slightly unnerving. Yeah, I was hoping. I was 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:15.120 hoping you'd be. 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:21.280 Like, Nope, every single one had drugs, alcohol, gambling, horse 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:22.840 racing and all whatever. 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:26.920 I was wondering if you pick that, Yeah, that doesn't 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:31.280 necessarily mean you're a bad person. But where I come from, 0:07:31.680 --> 0:07:32.720 we only race mules. 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:37.480 Is it? Is it the racing or the gambling gambling? 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:40.960 It's kind of it's like throwing back on a joke 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:44.960 that happened like weeks ago that nobody thought was funny 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:46.120 about about. 0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:48.720 Horse racing being kind of a little sketchy. 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:55.440 But yeah, so it would only be gambling. My parents 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:58.200 were raising hot springs and so you know, now mule 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:02.000 gambling and racing, that's fine, totally okay, I mean, because you. 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:03.440 Know, how serious could that be taken. 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:07.480 It's interesting because you don't have Clay doesn't have a 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:11.360 really long list. He does not have eighty potential podcasts. 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:15.320 He is looking for, you know, trying to mine out 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:19.000 the heroes, like rural redemptive. 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:20.320 Stories of rural people. 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:24.400 Would you agree or disagree with that americanization sometimes? 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:27.080 I mean sometimes we're just doing like big historical stuff 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:29.440 like Civil War, which is kind of a little bit 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:31.920 unusual for Bear Greece because there's not a direct tie 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:36.600 to hunting or necessarily even rural America directly. I mean, 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:39.199 it's like all of America. This is probably the biggest, 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:43.800 like all American thing that we've done in a long time. 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:47.480 Yeah, but I'm just saying it's it's interesting that there's 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:48.199 so much. 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:50.839 He has such a longer list than you do. 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:55.160 Well, and it's it's probably just a the nature of 0:08:56.920 --> 0:08:57.920 the way he plans. 0:08:58.080 --> 0:08:58.400 Yeah, and. 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:03.559 Stories I'll definitely do. It's like people send in a story, 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:06.520 I look it up briefly and think this could work, 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:08.280 and I put it on the list. Yeah, that's the 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:08.920 extent of it. 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:11.680 Really, But I mean eighty stories, that's years of work. 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:14.120 Yeah, it's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. It's a 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:18.600 lot of hunters going missing under suspicious circumstances, but also 0:09:18.840 --> 0:09:22.880 like like I have I think I can think it's three, 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:27.000 off the top of my head, spouses killing their spouses 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:31.600 and to make it look like a hunting accident. Yeah, duck, 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:35.400 a duck hunting accident, and then two deer hunting accidents. 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:38.760 All three interesting, probably not accidents. 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:44.960 I wonder if if that worries you at all, Clay, Yeah, yeah, 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:50.400 I don't know, just kidding, just kidding, I don't with Clay. 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:53.840 Well, Josh and Josh took me turkey hunting a few 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:56.320 weeks ago and we're out at you know, it's five 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:59.319 am and we're trapsing through the woods. Yeah, and I'm 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:01.240 a little ways by, hi Josh, and he's like just 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:02.720 turns his and logs and he's like, are you okay? 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:04.400 And I was like, yeah, I'm great. I just probably 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:07.400 shouldn't have listened to blood trails for real, like before 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:09.800 we came out here, Like this was a little much. 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:12.920 Just stay away from strangers, That's what I've learned. Just 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:14.520 like you see a stranger. 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:16.280 Just just go somewhere else, Just go somewhere else. 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:17.920 Ways, Oh that's your hot tip. 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:23.400 I listen. I I would say, don't, don't get into conflict. 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:27.160 No conflict ever with not worth it. Maybe if like 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:30.280 if they're obviously friendly and in their right mind, like 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:32.520 you know, it's fine talk to them, but like if 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:36.199 they walk through your hunt, if they mess something up, 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:37.560 just don't say anything. 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:39.440 Is that what a lot of your stories are about 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:42.040 people kind of infringing on your hunting property. 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:45.959 No, Well, so he's got eightyse stories. I'm just curious. 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:48.800 Where's There are definitely a few that I haven't looked 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:50.560 into in a lot of detail where there is some 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:55.640 conflict over one actually up in Michigan allegedly conflict over 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:58.880 a bare baiting location. Oh wow, and there was a 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:04.520 gunfight basically happened as a result. Yeah, but but definitely definitely. 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:06.800 I mean, we did one this season of a hunter 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:11.240 who just it was in the parking lot of uh, 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:15.200 some federal public land. I can't remember exactly what it was, 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:18.000 but some federal public land down in Florida in the Panhandle, 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:20.840 and they just got into a fight. 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:21.200 The guy. 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:23.920 The guy was walking his dogs and he said, hey, 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:26.680 you should have orangehn because there's hunters in the area. 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:30.240 He didn't like that. We don't know exactly how it escalated. 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:32.960 From there, but it escalated to the guy walking the 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:36.520 dogs shooting the hunters and killing him. 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:40.360 Yeah, and along dog walkers, peaceful people. 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:44.120 This was just a few years ago. Wow, yeah, yeah, 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:47.400 not not long ago. And so that's why I say, like, 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:49.439 you just never know, Like and this guy, it turned 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:54.000 out the murderer had a history of aggressive confrontations with 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:57.320 his neighbors, just like kind of a not great guy. 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:01.000 And the hunter didn't know that. Well, but he's not 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:03.920 going to back down. You know, he probably should have, 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:05.800 not that it's you know, at all his fault, but 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:07.679 you just never know who you're gonna run. 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:09.360 Well, that's I think that's great advice. 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:14.520 Just general advice for life is just stay out of conflict. Yeah, dude, 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:18.120 I mean, you know there's there there can be an 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:21.480 ego thing rise up when someone really wrongs you that 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:24.480 you feel like you need to stand in your space 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:25.000 or whatever. 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:28.760 That's rarely actually something you need to do. Like if 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:31.280 someone like in the field. 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:34.200 Especially way out in somewhere. Yeah, it's one thing. If 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:36.200 it's like in a restaurant with you know, one hundred 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:39.080 people around you. It's another thing if you're by yourself 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:40.760 with someone in the. 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:43.839 Sticks so stay out of conflict with strangers in the woods. 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:49.040 Yeah, this is you know, I meant this checks out. 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:52.040 Gary Nukum always taught me from the time I was 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:54.880 a young kid, I was afraid of the dark. I 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:58.400 was afraid of the woods. I really was more than 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:01.960 the average kid. And he was always like, hey, you know, 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:03.960 there's nothing in these woods that's going to hurt you 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:07.760 except for people. And he always advised us just to 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:09.040 stay away from people. 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:10.080 You know. 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:14.560 I mean, that's I'd say that's relatively good advice for 0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:15.400 the most part. 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:17.600 Stay away from people. I'm keeping a list here. 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:20.840 Yeah. Yeah, tips for life for Joshua exactly. 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:23.719 I'm doing a lot of stuff wrong Jordan's. 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:28.800 High risk lifestyle. 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:37.000 So the second season of Blood Trails, what's your favorite 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:39.959 episode you've done so far? One that stands out, one 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:44.160 that was iconic, second, second, the second, just all of 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:47.080 them you've done, because people ask me that all the time, 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:49.280 and I'm always trying to like pick one bear, Like 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:51.880 if we were like, what's the best bear grease? 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:54.080 Which one would you listen to if you only have. 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:57.000 So so I can tell you our most popular so 0:13:57.080 --> 0:14:00.319 far this season, by far, has been the first episode 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:04.360 we did. It's from up in Montana near Helena. A 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:09.520 guy named Mike krit was the victim, and Mike moved 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:13.760 from Colorado to Montana basically to live off the grid. 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:17.520 He bought eighty acres up north of Helena and built 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:20.920 a cabin and kind of just kind of wanted to 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:25.560 be left alone, but was also very kind of aggressive 0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:28.400 about keeping people off of his property. So really he 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:30.680 did have some neighbors who got along with but he 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:33.160 had conflicts with other neighbors. And that's really at the 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:36.720 heart of the story, is this conflict he had with 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:41.080 a neighbor farthered down the mountain from him. So and 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:42.920 then the other big thing about this story is that 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:45.480 there's this easement. There's a bunch of properties on this 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:49.520 mountain and there's an easement, so a road that is 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:53.240 not like a county road. There's like this official, unofficial 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:55.320 agreement that all the neighbors are going to be able 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:58.440 to use this road. A neighbor farther down the mountain 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:02.560 from Mike decided he to want people driving or entering 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:04.920 his property at all, and so he would try to 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:08.600 block off that road. This conflict escalated, escalated, escalated. There 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:12.080 were shots fired at Mike that he got on video, 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:14.400 and we got that video and it's in the podcast. 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:16.520 If you go on YouTube, it's there as well, you 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:19.680 can watch that. And so that was the type of 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:23.440 conflict that was going on on this mountain. Mike disappears. 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:30.240 His remains are found a couple months later, and it 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:32.440 turned out someone had actually. 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:34.880 Cut him up, just remembered him. 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:40.720 Yeah, yeah, put him in two separate plastic bags, deposited 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:43.960 those bags on two sides of a pass, the McDonald 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:47.360 Pass up there near Helena. And so they find these remains. 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:51.000 This is all they're back in twenty eleven, and so 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:52.720 you think, well, they found their remains, they're going to 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:54.680 find some DNA, they're going to figure out who did it. 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:57.080 And obviously they're looking very closely at this neighbor who 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:01.720 he's been having conflict with. Kind of fast forward and 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:04.320 nothing really happens for a long time. They don't make 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:08.720 any arrest, they can't figure out who killed Mike. Eventually 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:15.280 they connect some zip ties that were found on the remains. 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:18.960 They've been used to zip tide like the bones together. 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:24.400 They connect those zip ties to another neighbor. There's a 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:27.200 different neighbor not the guy who'd shot at Mike, different 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:30.840 guy on that same mountain. They connected to him. He's 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:35.480 he's prosecuted, he goes to trial, but it's a hung 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:40.040 jury and so and then a year later, the prosecutor 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:42.880 decides we're not gonna refile the charges and try to 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:45.080 prosecute him again because they don't feel like they have 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:49.040 enough evidence. So and like there's eyes skimmed over, tons 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:51.040 of detail, like there's there's all kinds of stuff in 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:53.560 that podcast. But I think that one has done really 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:58.560 well because there's so much uncertainty about the story. There's 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:01.880 a lot of speculation. You can have your own opinions about, 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:05.000 you know, the guy that they charged. Did you listen 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:07.960 to that one? Okay, all right, well I'm I'm curious 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:10.960 to hear them, But that that one really sticks out, 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:16.960 especially this season, just with the uncertainty of it, the like, 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:19.679 is Mike a good guys? He not a good guy? 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:20.760 You know? What? Do you think? 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:21.840 You's complicated? 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:27.200 I think he did it. 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:29.399 Yeah, yeah, So if you haven't listened to the episode, 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:32.840 Leon Ford is the guy that they eventually prosecuted, and 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:36.439 the way they connected the ZIP ties to him is 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:39.200 they were kind of unusual zip ties. They were apparently 0:17:39.400 --> 0:17:42.639 like really large heavy duty zip ties. You couldn't you 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:44.719 can't really buy them like home deep over lows. 0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:46.000 But one of. 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:50.359 You are doing a lot wrong. 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:50.920 You did it. 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:58.520 But but he had access to them because he worked 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:02.520 at an air Force base in Washington State, and there's 0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:05.919 a record of him checking out those zip ties like 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:08.760 a couple weeks before Mike goes missing. The other big 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:11.320 there's two other big piece of evidence. One is the 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:13.600 timing of it. So he didn't live up there on 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:16.080 the mountain. He he had property up there, but he 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:19.320 only visited every couple of years. So he visits and 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:21.800 like the next day Mike goes missing, So that's kind 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:24.760 of weird timing. Another thing is they got an opinion. Yeah, 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:28.400 they had, They had trailcam footage of his truck going 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:31.000 up there the day Mike goes missing, and they don't 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:32.960 really have footage of anyone else. 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:35.000 But they can't they can't pin it on him. 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:37.480 Well, so, and I talked with the one of the 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:41.480 primary investigators who ended up, you know, bringing this case 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:44.520 to trial. What he what he told me is like 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:49.240 if you take all of these things together, it's very convincing. Right, 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:53.800 it's a pretty strong case, but each thing separately you 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:56.399 can really pick it apart, which is exactly what his 0:18:56.440 --> 0:19:02.399 defense did. And so that combined with the other guy, 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:04.760 I think the other neighbor throws a wrench into the 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:08.639 whole thing. Because the defense calls the other neighbor who 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:11.760 shot at Mike up to the stand and he pleads 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:15.160 the fifth meaning he said, I'm not going to testify 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:16.760 for fear of self incrimination. 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:17.720 Oh man. 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:20.680 The jury hears that and thinks, oh, well, this guy 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:25.080 did it right. And so I actually got contacted by 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:27.720 one of the members of that jury who told me 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:33.159 it was like seven to five guilty. So it was 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:37.480 very much split. And the jurors who said not guilty 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:40.320 were like, Ford could have done it. There just isn't 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:43.440 quite enough evidence. And also this other guy, we feel 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:45.720 like he was in on it, but he was never 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:48.800 he was never charged. So the whole thing is just 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:52.359 a giant mess all the way around. 0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:53.120 Wow. 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:56.920 Wow, what are the ethics of like a story like that, 0:19:56.960 --> 0:20:00.760 like Josh just said, this guy's name on and what 0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:04.280 are the ethics of telling these stories that you know someone. 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:06.840 It's one thing to say this person was found guilty 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:10.240 by a trial, you know. And but but you're talking 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:13.480 about stories, and I'm curious both about the families of 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:16.200 the victims. Have you ever run into a situation where 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:18.639 the families don't want the story told? Because I could 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:23.119 I could see that being the case, or a situation 0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:26.480 like this one, where are you allowed to do what 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:28.439 you're doing? You know, are you how how do you 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:29.199 navigate all that? 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:30.600 Yeah, I mean, I think. 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:32.639 And what are the legal parameters for? 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:38.919 Yeah? So so like if someone hasn't been convicted, you 0:20:38.960 --> 0:20:41.040 can't say they did it. You have to say they've 0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:47.800 been accused of it, right, Well, but you can you can, 0:20:48.440 --> 0:20:51.440 I think, voice your opinion right like I could. I 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:54.880 could maybe I could say I think he did it, right, 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:56.720 but I have to say I think he did I 0:20:56.720 --> 0:21:01.080 don't send to weigh in in the podcast, But yeah, 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:03.120 you do have to be really careful, and especially if 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:06.240 they have never been charged but their name is out there, 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:07.240 like we covered another case. 0:21:07.280 --> 0:21:12.639 They not bother you personally though, to like say just. 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:16.119 Yeah, I guess you're just a journalist, so you're just 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:16.920 like telling. 0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:20.000 Yeah, right, Like I matter of public record. It's a 0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:22.399 matter of public records. So like another good example, we 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:28.760 covered a case from Kentucky where law enforcement has been 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:31.560 pretty vocal about who they think did it. But this 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:34.159 guy has never actually been charged, but he has been 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:36.679 named as a person of interest as a suspect. And 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:39.159 so as a journalist, I can say, this guy, his 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:41.639 name is Nick Nick Hawk, has been named as a 0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:44.720 person of interest in this murder. But then I also 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:49.320 have to say he's never been charged. He maintains his innocence, right, 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:52.040 and all that is true, And I don't know whether 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:53.840