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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and welcome to Stephon.

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Speaker 1: Never told your production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, we're just expanding our series on Christianity and

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Speaker 2: the Marginalized community, and I'm expanding it a lot. What

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Speaker 2: became It's gonna be two three episodes, as I think,

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Speaker 2: almost extended to seven or eight. We'll see. Is no

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Speaker 2: surprise that there is a limitless amount of controversy and

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Speaker 2: information when it comes to Christianity, especially Western nice Christianity,

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Speaker 2: especially during this time as we are seeing more and

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Speaker 2: more movements like the Christian Nationalism. And I really wish

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Speaker 2: we could come with good things, but because I am

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Speaker 2: who are I am, everything is sad, everything is the worst,

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Speaker 2: and this one is no different. And as you know,

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Speaker 2: when it comes to religious trauma and Christianity, there is

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Speaker 2: a lot of baggage, and today's topic is very, very heavy.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to go ahead and give you this content warning.

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Speaker 2: We are going to tell explicit stories of sexual abuse

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Speaker 2: within the churches, specifically in the Southern Baptist community. Surprisingly,

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Speaker 2: did not jump into any of the Catholic issues or

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Speaker 2: even the issues that have happened in some of the

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Speaker 2: other religions or communities. I guess because as of the

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Speaker 2: last couple of years, there's been some really big fallout

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Speaker 2: when it comes to women being harassed, abused, all of

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Speaker 2: the things within the Southern Baptist community and Baptist community

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Speaker 2: in general. So it's a lot and with that, it's

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Speaker 2: also very personal for me, I will say as a survivor,

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Speaker 2: I guess of some things that have been triggered pretty

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Speaker 2: heavily by this episode. So I'm sorry in advance. If

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Speaker 2: you can't handle it, I get it. It was a

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Speaker 2: lot to work through. It's a lot to work through. Again,

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Speaker 2: do what you need to do to keep your own safety,

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Speaker 2: to be in a good place. And if this is

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Speaker 2: something that you can't handle, we get it, skip past it.

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Speaker 2: But for those of you who might not know what

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Speaker 2: we're talking about, who might not know what happens within

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Speaker 2: communities like this, it's really important that we do have

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Speaker 2: this conversation. And the reason we are naming names is

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Speaker 2: telling stories. A lot of the people who came forward,

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Speaker 2: it took a lot of courage for them to come forward,

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Speaker 2: and we think we owe them that to share as

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Speaker 2: they have shared as well. So that's the top here

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Speaker 2: we go. Previously we talked about purity culture and modesty

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Speaker 2: and how it coincides with rape culture. And something that

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Speaker 2: has become a scandal and controversy for churches across the

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Speaker 2: world are the many accusations of sexual abuse and the

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Speaker 2: mishandling of allegations of sexual abuse and rape. And as

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Speaker 2: the industries all over the world had to face the

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Speaker 2: me too era, so did the church, and as Capital

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Speaker 2: C Church in twenty seventeen, the hashtag church to spread

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Speaker 2: on Twitter as different users told their stories of abuse

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Speaker 2: within the church.

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Speaker 1: As journalist Elizah Griswold wrote in The New Yorker for

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Speaker 1: her article titled silence is not spiritual, the evangelical hashtag

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Speaker 1: me too movement quote when the hashtag church two movement

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Speaker 1: started last November with abuse survivors telling stories of being

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Speaker 1: silenced by church leaders, many said that they had been

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Speaker 1: told to submit. The creators of church to Hanna Passion

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Speaker 1: to Emily Joy have talked about their experiences and continue

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Speaker 1: to help people work through their own stories. Passion Joy

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Speaker 1: bonded through shared experiences of trauma from their church, not

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Speaker 1: only through the abuse that they suffered, but also through

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Speaker 1: the trauma of purity culture from their church. In hefect impost,

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Speaker 1: Pash wrote, Emily and I would create a joint blogging

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Speaker 1: endeavor called the Purity Culture Rehab Project, in which we

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Speaker 1: documented our own baby steps out of the physical and

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Speaker 1: emotional abuse of purity culture. That theology of abstinence that

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Speaker 1: singles out women and slutshames everyone who engages in any

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Speaker 1: kind of sexual activity outside of marriage. Purity culture is

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Speaker 1: the religious antecedent to rape culture, as it lays the

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Speaker 1: bulk of the responsibility for maintaining the sexual purity of

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Speaker 1: both genders on women's attire and behavior. And she went

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Speaker 1: on explaining over a bottle of cheap gas station wine.

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Speaker 1: We planned out the things we would dare ourselves to do,

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Speaker 1: our first kisses, asking someone on a date, standing up

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Speaker 1: to a cat collar instead of walking faster and pretending

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Speaker 1: not to hear. As the project took off, the churches

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Speaker 1: we participated in continued to shame us for our appearances

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Speaker 1: are presumed sexual activity and our inability to conform to

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Speaker 1: the scriptural ideal of the woman with a gentle and

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Speaker 1: qui spirit.

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Speaker 2: I think I've told you that story before, about the

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Speaker 2: fact that because I was not the gentle and quiet spirit.

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Speaker 2: I always felt so outside and felt unworthy to be loved,

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Speaker 2: and when I say loved, being in a relationship or

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Speaker 2: being liked by the men in that culture, because I

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Speaker 2: could not be the beautiful, small, fatite, quiet woman. And

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Speaker 2: this one hit the nail on the head and I

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Speaker 2: was like, yeah, that was exactly like, these words do

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Speaker 2: not match me, so I cannot be a part of this.

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Speaker 2: Of course, this was not something that was welcomed with

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Speaker 2: open arms. In fact, Posh spoke of feeling like an

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Speaker 2: outsider in her time at the church in college, and

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Speaker 2: as she Enjoy bonded over their shared experience with the church,

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Speaker 2: they continued in their own healing journey, and soon after

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Speaker 2: allegations came out through the Maytooth movement, Posh and Joy

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Speaker 2: wanted to share their own experiences to the hashtag church too.

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Speaker 2: Posh wrote in that same article recently as allegations after

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Speaker 2: allegation service against men in Washington and Hollywood, in Lee

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Speaker 2: and I realized it was time to create space for

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Speaker 2: survivors within the Evangelical church and for those who left

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Speaker 2: its walls. So we launched hashtag church too, a Twitter

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Speaker 2: hashtag that quickly drew out widespread stories of sexual abuse

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Speaker 2: and harassment. It was a reckoning for me. It was

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Speaker 2: also the culmination of years speaking out against and unlearning

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Speaker 2: the strictures of evangelical purity culture, and she continues to

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Speaker 2: explain how hashtag me too inspired her to tell her story.

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Speaker 2: She writes, the hashtag gave me the courage to come

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Speaker 2: forward with my own story of rape. Although it did

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Speaker 2: not occur specifically within the church, the power of evangelical

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Speaker 2: purity culture were such that when I staggered home, still

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Speaker 2: half muted from the effects of a date rape drug

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Speaker 2: i'd adjusted, I was prepared to sweep the whole thing

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Speaker 2: under the rug, blinded by guilt and shame. Surely I

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Speaker 2: had brought this on myself. Surely it was my fault.

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Speaker 1: And she goes on. After I offered up the hashtag

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Speaker 1: on November twentieth, I went to sleep expecting to see

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Speaker 1: a few stories shared by Internet friends and mutuals and

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Speaker 1: my Twitter mentions. The following day, I awoke to dozens

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Speaker 1: of notifications from people I didn't know or follow. By

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Speaker 1: the end of those first twenty four hours, the hashtag

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Speaker 1: had exploded. Within forty eight hours, people all over the

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Speaker 1: world were sharing their stories of pain and abuse in

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Speaker 1: the church, and every day, without fail, some white male

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Speaker 1: pastor has attempted to discredit the movement and the survivors

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Speaker 1: who had bound their voice within it, and many started

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Speaker 1: to share their stories. Hear some examples. Vox wrote about

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Speaker 1: a woman who revealed her rape during a youth group

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Speaker 1: prayer section, only to be asked if she'd repented, Another

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Speaker 1: who fled an abusive marriage amoly to be told by

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Speaker 1: her pastor to return home and submit to her husband's will.

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Speaker 1: Another who as a child was told to cover up

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Speaker 1: after a male classmate had been caught masturbating while looking

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Speaker 1: at her, Another who felt compelled to get an abortion

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Speaker 1: lest her church community find out she'd been, in their eyes, unpure.

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Speaker 2: And the movement has continued since, with many more stories

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Speaker 2: coming out, and almost all the denominations have been accused

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Speaker 2: of such abuses, including the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest

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Speaker 2: Protestant denomination in the US, which has around thirteen point

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Speaker 2: seven million members as of twenty twenty two. Here's an

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Speaker 2: interesting fact, though, the numbers of the SPC members have

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Speaker 2: steadily declined, and by twenty twenty two, over one million

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Speaker 2: previous members left the church from the year before Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and with movements like hashtag church too, many of those

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Speaker 2: still as members are asking questions within the churches. In

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Speaker 2: the past years, people have been speaking out about the

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Speaker 2: abuse and harassment within the church, specifically Southern Baptist, but

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Speaker 2: it isn't surprising to learn that many of the leaders

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Speaker 2: of that church have tried to hide and suppress the issues,

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Speaker 2: and a report in the Washington Post, writer Joshua Peace

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Speaker 2: writes about the churches and the allegations. He says, quote

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Speaker 2: likely in any community of fate, there's also sin, often silence,

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Speaker 2: ignored and denied, and it is more common than many

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Speaker 2: want to believe. It is often led to failures by

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Speaker 2: evangelicals to report sexual abuse, respond properly to victims, or

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Speaker 2: changing the institutional cultures that enable the abuse in the

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Speaker 2: first place.

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Speaker 1: And the article continues. Without a centralized theological body, evangelical

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Speaker 1: policies and cultures vary radically, and while some church leaders

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Speaker 1: have worked to prevent abuse and harassment, many have not.

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Speaker 1: The causes are manifold authoritarian leadership, twisted theology, institutional protection,

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Speaker 1: obliviousness about the problem, and perhaps most shocking, a diminishment

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Speaker 1: of the trauma sexual abuse creates especially surprising in a

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Speaker 1: church culture that believes strongly in the sanctity of sex.

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Speaker 1: Sexual abuse is the most underreported thing, both in and

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Speaker 1: outside the church that exist, says Bojs Chavision, a grandson

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Speaker 1: of Billy Graham and a former Florida Assistant state attorney.

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Speaker 1: As a prosecutor, Chavision saw dozens of sexual abuse victims

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Speaker 1: harmed by a church's response to them. In one case,

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Speaker 1: a pastor did not report a sexual offender in his

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Speaker 1: church because the man had repented. The offender was arrested

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Speaker 1: only after he had abused five more children.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if you don't know who Billy Graham is, then

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Speaker 2: I know that you're not. You don't know about the

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Speaker 2: Southern Baptist culture because Andy did not know who Billy

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Speaker 2: Graham is. I could be wrong. People can correct me.

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Speaker 2: One of the big first televangelists as we call them.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, he was a grandson, so for him to

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Speaker 2: be a part of this is pretty surprising. So the

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Speaker 2: article goes on to talk about how many have tried

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Speaker 2: to get information in order to solve this problem, but

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Speaker 2: no surprise, data is not easy to collect. As many

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Speaker 2: have noted the lack of reporting or even acknowledging the

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Speaker 2: problem has made it difficult to get accurate, if any,

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Speaker 2: real data. And here's another quote written in that article.

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Speaker 2: The problem in collecting data stems in part from the

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Speaker 2: loose or non existent hierarchy in evangelicalism. Catholic church abusers

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Speaker 2: benefited from an institutional cover up. That same bureaucracy enabled

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Speaker 2: the reporters to document a systemic scandal. In contrast, most

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Speaker 2: evangelical groups prize the autonomy of local congregations, with major

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Speaker 2: institutions like the Southern Baptist Convention having no authority to

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Speaker 2: enforce a standard operating procedure among member churches. This means

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Speaker 2: researchers attempting to study this issue has to come through

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Speaker 2: publicly available documents. And the article continues with some research

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Speaker 2: that was found. Quote. That's what Wade Mullen, the director

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Speaker 2: of the Master's Divinity Program of Capital Seminary and Graduate School,

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Speaker 2: did as a part of his PhD dissertation. He collected

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Speaker 2: reports of evangelical pastors or ministers charged with the crime

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Speaker 2: in order to understand how evangelical organizations respond to crisis.

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Speaker 2: Over twenty sixteen and twenty seventeen, Mullen found one hundred

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Speaker 2: and ninety two instances of a leader from an influential

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Speaker 2: church or evangelical institution being publicly charged with sexual crimes

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Speaker 2: involving a minor, including rape, molestation, battery, and child pornography.

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Speaker 2: By the way, this data did not include sexual crimes

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Speaker 2: against an adult or crimes committed by someone other than

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Speaker 2: a leader.

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Speaker 1: And in another study that was used in the article

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Speaker 1: specifically with one of the evangelical colleges in the US,

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Speaker 1: they write, the study showed that fifty six percent of

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Speaker 1: the three hundred and eighty one respondents who reported having

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Speaker 1: knowledge of the school's handling of abuse, a group that

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Speaker 1: included current and former students as well as employees, believed

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Speaker 1: that bob Jojes University or BJU, conveyed a quote blaming

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Speaker 1: and disparaging attitude toward victims. Of the one hundred and

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Speaker 1: sixty six people who said they had been victims of

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Speaker 1: sexual abuse before or during their time at BJU have

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Speaker 1: said school officials had actively discouraged them from going to

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Speaker 1: the police. According to one anonymous respondent, after he finally

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Speaker 1: told the police about years of sexual abuse by his grandfather,

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Speaker 1: a BJU official admonished him that quote you tore your

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Speaker 1: family apart and that's your fault. End quote, you love

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Speaker 1: yourself more than you love God. And this type of

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Speaker 1: reaction towards victims is not uncommon through the church leaderships,

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Speaker 1: but the movement has made a difference within the past

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Speaker 1: few years. In twenty nineteen, an investigation was conducted after

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Speaker 1: a victim, CHRISTA. Brown, was able to get the public's

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Speaker 1: attention to the abuses happening within the Baptist Church.

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Speaker 2: Right and just for a little backstory on Brown, Brown

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Speaker 2: was a victim of rape and molestation as a teenager

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Speaker 2: by the hands of the pastor who led her church.

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Speaker 2: After years of abuse, she finally told her music minister

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Speaker 2: after breaking down and said that she was actually having

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Speaker 2: an affair with a much older pastor. Reminder she was

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Speaker 2: a minor being co worced by a leader of her church,

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Speaker 2: and instead of any punishment or any charges, the pastor

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Speaker 2: was transferred to another church or with a better pay

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Speaker 2: and more responsibility over the children's programs, and Brown would

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Speaker 2: remain silent and suffer through her trauma until her adulthood.

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Speaker 2: And though her abuse occurred years earlier, she finally made

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Speaker 2: a report of her abuse to her childhood church and

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Speaker 2: to the officials of the Texas Southern Baptist Leadership, and

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Speaker 2: with a letter they responded to her accusations. According to

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Speaker 2: a Vice article written about Chris Brown, they stated the

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Speaker 2: church quote noted that one person's memories might be materially

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Speaker 2: different from another's, and that Brown may have suffered for

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Speaker 2: reasons quote not attributed to mister Gilmore or the church,

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Speaker 2: and it threatened to seek recourse if she pursued the matter.

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Speaker 2: And actually she apparently has the full letter on her site.

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Speaker 2: Her site is outdated, so you may not be able

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Speaker 2: to find everything. At this time, Brown had become a

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Speaker 2: lawyer herself and began to negotiate with a church outside

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Speaker 2: of the courts, and this is when she discovered not

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Speaker 2: only did her abuse to still work with children within

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Speaker 2: a church, but that the Baptist Donal Convention of Texas

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Speaker 2: had a list of offenders who had quote confessed, been

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Speaker 2: convicted of sexual abuse or about whom there was a

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Speaker 2: substantial evidence that the abuse took place.

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Speaker 1: It was in two thousand and six that Brown published

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Speaker 1: an op ed imploring the BGCT to make the list

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Speaker 1: public and in the article say her logic was plain

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Speaker 1: sexual abuse by a trusted religious leader has a sole

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Speaker 1: murdering impact. The way forward was shining a light on

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Speaker 1: the church's darkness, and even though her request wasn't answered,

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Speaker 1: she started her own website known as the Quote Stop

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Speaker 1: Baptist Predator's Website, where she kept her own database of

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Speaker 1: abusers who are named in the public records and media reports.

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Speaker 1: Brown faced a lot of backlash from the SBC from

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Speaker 1: that same article they write. In two thousand and six,

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Speaker 1: d August Augie Boto wrote to Brown in his capacity

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Speaker 1: as then vice president of Convention Policy, saying that quote

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Speaker 1: continued discourse between us will not be projective or fruitful.

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Speaker 1: The following year, while Brown was advocating for an independent

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Speaker 1: review board to SBC's Bylaws Workgroup, she recounted what it

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Speaker 1: was like to discover that the man she said had

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Speaker 1: molested and raped her as a teen was still working

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Speaker 1: as a Southern Baptist children's minister. One executive committee member

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Speaker 1: turned his back while she's and another one shortled she

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Speaker 1: was the only woman in the room.

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Speaker 2: Of course, for those of us who have been involved

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Speaker 2: in church systems like this, this type of reaction is

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Speaker 2: not surprising. I think I've had many who would just

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Speaker 2: act as surprised or kept quiet when I had my

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Speaker 2: own instances. In my own experience, I was told that

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Speaker 2: I read into it, that it didn't happen. I must

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Speaker 2: have imagined it. That happens a lot. Of course, with

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Speaker 2: her tireless efforts, many more people came out and told

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Speaker 2: their stories. Different women all of the countries sent their

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Speaker 2: stories to Brown, emailed them and let her know what's

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Speaker 2: going on.

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Speaker 1: After the hashtag me too and hashtag church two movement

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Speaker 1: started with the help of Brown's own work, so many

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Speaker 1: people did come forward, breaking down the barriers that have

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Speaker 1: been keeping women trapped in their trauma and experiences. Women

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Speaker 1: like Jules Woodson and a victim of pastor John Lowe.

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Speaker 1: Woodson was finally able to tell her story. Here's what

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Speaker 1: Slat wrote about her experience. Quote. Woodson moved to the

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Speaker 1: Woodlands in Texas when she was five and joined a

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Speaker 1: local Baptist church, Woodlands Parkway. It was part of the

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Speaker 1: Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant denomination in the US

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Speaker 1: and one of the most conservative. When Woodson was a teenager,

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Speaker 1: she was allegedly sexually propositioned by a youth pastor named

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Speaker 1: Andy Savage. Words started getting around the church. Savage admitted

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Speaker 1: he made what he called a mistake and resigned, though

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Speaker 1: he eventually found work at another Southern Baptist church and

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Speaker 1: then a mega church. Woodson finally went public with her

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Speaker 1: story in twenty eighteen, and at his megachurch, Andy Savage

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Speaker 1: apologized to the congregation for what he called a sexual incident.

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Speaker 2: And the victim of Pastor John Lowe had to publicly

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Speaker 2: confront low after he downplayed his offenses in front of

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Speaker 2: the congregation. Here's a bit from an NBC News post

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Speaker 2: written by reporter Jessica Johnson. Shortly after Pastor John Lowe

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Speaker 2: the Second pleaded for his congregations to seek the saving

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Speaker 2: knowledge of Christ, he said he had a confession. He

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Speaker 2: wanted to follow a biblical process of confessing, repentance, and forgiveness,

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Speaker 2: which would lead up to him finally admitting that he

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Speaker 2: had committed adultery. He stressed that it was twenty years

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Speaker 2: ago and was with one person, and as a way

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Speaker 2: to hammer home that he was doing the upstanding thing,

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Speaker 2: he said he would not use the Bible to defend

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Speaker 2: protect and deflect my past sins. He continued, quote, I

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Speaker 2: have no defense. I committed the adultery. To say it plainly,

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Speaker 2: I didn't make a mistake. I need to say that,

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Speaker 2: and you deserve to hear it. He asked the congregation

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Speaker 2: for forgiveness and announced that he was stepping aside from

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Speaker 2: ministry responsibilities and submitting to recommendations from the church board.

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Speaker 2: As Low placed microphone down and stepped off stage, he

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Speaker 2: received a standing ovation, but he had left out key details,

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Speaker 2: and as the applause continued, a woman and her husband

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Speaker 2: stepped up to the pulpit to fill in what these

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Speaker 2: details were. The clapping died down as a woman began.

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Speaker 2: I lived in a prison of lies and shame, lying

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Speaker 2: to protect the Low family, having suicidal thoughts, not realizing

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Speaker 2: what had been truly done to me. I was still

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Speaker 2: be in a prison if my brother had not approached

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Speaker 2: me just two weeks ago with what he had seen

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Speaker 2: as a teenager that bothered him all these years. His

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Speaker 2: pastor in bed with his younger sister a T shirt

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Speaker 2: and underwear on. People knew but were too afraid to

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Speaker 2: come forward, and they have now. The lies and manipulation

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Speaker 2: have to stop. She then addressed Load directly. She was

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Speaker 2: standing nearby at the front pew. She said, I was

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Speaker 2: a prisoner and you kept me in your prison. I

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Speaker 2: am a prisoner no longer. I was just sixteen when

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Speaker 2: you took my virginity on your office floor. She said.

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Speaker 2: You did things to my teenage body that had never

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Speaker 2: and should had never been done. You are not the victim,

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Speaker 2: and indeed he is not, though he tried to make

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Speaker 2: himself look as if he was. After the woman left

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Speaker 2: the stage with her husband, a man shouted, quote, if

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Speaker 2: you did it, you have to admit it. Low responded,

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Speaker 2: she was sixteen. It was wrong. That's just the way

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Speaker 2: it is. All I can do is ask you to

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Speaker 2: forgive me. I'm doing the biblical process. I'm stepping down.

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Speaker 1: Well. With all the stories and accusations coming out, the

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Speaker 1: SBC have had to rethink their policies. Previously, the SBC's

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Speaker 1: tactic was lacking. As one article from Box writes, quote

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Speaker 1: when it comes to addressing sexual abuse, up until now,

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Speaker 1: they have claimed that because of their church policy, they

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Speaker 1: don't have the authority to track abusers and hold local

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Speaker 1: churches accountable, said Kristen Cobez. Dumis a professor of history

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Speaker 1: at Calvin University and the author of Jesus and John

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Speaker 1: Wayne How White evangelicals corrupted a faith and fractured a nation. Quote.

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Speaker 1: But in the report, we found that they had in

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Speaker 1: fact been tracking abusers in their churches and had been

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Speaker 1: maintaining a private database for their own protection. They had

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Speaker 1: not in any way reached out and tried to prosecute

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Speaker 1: those abusers to keep people safe. In the twenty nineteen

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Speaker 1: investigation completed by Houston Chronicle, a lot of information was

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Speaker 1: given to the issue within the churches. Here's another quote

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Speaker 1: from that same Slate article. In twenty nineteen, a Houston

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Speaker 1: Chronicle investigation revealed widespread sexual assault within the denomination. One reporter,

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Speaker 1: Robert Downen, uncovered troubling details that prompted the SBC to

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Speaker 1: commission its own internal review, conducted by an independent organization

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Speaker 1: called Guidepost Solutions. The review confirmed a lot of what

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Speaker 1: the Chronicle had already found, and earlier this month, the

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Speaker 1: SBC announced it was being investigated by the Department of Justice.

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Speaker 1: Some survivors, alike Woodson, hope the investigation might lead to

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Speaker 1: crucial changes, but they're unsure whether justice is possible, or

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Speaker 1: if substantive reforms will be implemented.

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Speaker 2: Right guidepo Solutions of the independent firm who investigated within

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Speaker 2: the SBC, Yeah, they found a lot. Here's a quote.

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Speaker 2: The probe found that the Southern Baptist Conventions Executive Committee

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Speaker 2: had mishandled abuse claims and still and waald survivors. The

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Speaker 2: investigation was requested by the executive committee after it faced

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Speaker 2: growing pressure for an external probe into abuse allegations. This

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Speaker 2: is according to one of the NBC news articles and

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Speaker 2: according to another one written by NPR. They say an

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Speaker 2: SBC sex abuse task force released a blistering two hundred

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Speaker 2: and eighty eight page report from outside consultants Guidepost Solutions.

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Speaker 2: The firm's seven month independent investigation found disturbing details about

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Speaker 2: how denominational leaders mishandled sex abuse claims and mistreated victims.

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Speaker 2: The report focused specifically on how the SBC's Executive Committee

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Speaker 2: responded to abuse cases, revealing that it had secretly maintained

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Speaker 2: a list of clergy and other church workers accused of abuse.

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Speaker 1: With this report, the SBC soon released a two hundred

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Speaker 1: and five list of names of pastors and other leaders

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Speaker 1: and members of the Baptist churches who had been accused

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Speaker 1: of sexual abuse, and as women and victims have been

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Speaker 1: speaking out, causing a massive shift in accountability, structural changes

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Speaker 1: continued to take place within powerful religious organizations like the

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Speaker 1: Southern Baptist Convention. Unfortunately, due to years of a power

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Speaker 1: imbalance between leaders and members, women and men, marginalized, and

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Speaker 1: white supremacy, justice is not swift or easy. As another

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Speaker 1: vax article writes, quote, Complementarianism's centrality within the SBC led

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Speaker 1: to a heavily patriarchal institution, which Meredith Stone, the executive

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Speaker 1: director of Baptist Women in Ministry, said created an environment

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Speaker 1: in which sexual abuse could happen and be covered up

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Speaker 1: as extensively as the Guidepost report said it was, and

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Speaker 1: as such, she said, simple systemic fixes ultimately won't be

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Speaker 1: enough to reform the SBC. Instead, theological changes will have

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Speaker 1: to be made, and they will be the ones that

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Speaker 1: SBC won't want to make. The underlying systemic issues within

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Speaker 1: the Southern Baptist Convention have to do with a theology

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Speaker 1: that said some people are favored by God, some people

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Speaker 1: have more power, and God supports them having that power

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Speaker 1: and exerting it over others. Stone said that in no

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Speaker 1: way diminishes the culpability of individuals and the decisions that

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Speaker 1: they make to act in an abusive way against another person.

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Speaker 1: But I think when they are in an environment that

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Speaker 1: says God supports power over saying God is about love

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Speaker 1: and inclusion, it makes those actions more palatable.

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Speaker 2: Right, this is where we can talk about Christian nationalism

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Speaker 2: because of those excuses right there, and we will, we'll

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Speaker 2: come back to that. It's a lot, This is a lot.

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Speaker 2: And you know what, today, several lawsuits have been filed

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Speaker 2: against many of those in leadership. However, this happened in

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Speaker 2: March the case against Page Patterson, the former president of

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Speaker 2: Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, which by the way,

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Speaker 2: I try to go to, and the school was dismissed

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Speaker 2: for failing to prevent sexual abuse on campus. Patterson, by way,

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Speaker 2: also was a former president of the SBC or the

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Speaker 2: Southern Baptist Convention, who he had been fired after mishandling

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Speaker 2: several sexual abuse and harassment cases at the school, and

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Speaker 2: even with evidence that he had wanted to meet one

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00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 2: on one with one of the victims to quote break

435
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 2: her down, as he put in an email and being

436
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 2: fired from this position. The case was still dismissed and

437
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,159
Speaker 2: it can't be brought back because she did it with

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00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 2: prejudice and with the results like that, as well as

439
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 2: the years of covering up mishandling of many cases of rape,

440
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,880
Speaker 2: assault and abuse, it's hard to have a positive outlook.

441
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 2: I got real triggered by this episode, I said before,

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00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 2: But seeing women like Krista Brown, Emily Joy, Jules Woodson,

443
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 2: Hannah Pash and so many more speak up, protesting conferences,

444
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 2: in supporting one another, changes happen, and it gives us

445
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 2: hope to see more as they keep pushing forward. And

446
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 2: we're hoping to see what happens with the DOJ investigation

447
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 2: because I don't see any new reports on that, but

448
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 2: it has been ongoing. As with the Guidepost Solutions report

449
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 2: and the list that was released to the public. Perhaps

450
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 2: there could be a big shift in responsibility. And I

451
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,679
Speaker 2: don't think I explained the Southern Baptist Convention very well,

452
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 2: but it has been around since the eighteen hundreds. They

453
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 2: have been in the US, and they are evangelical, meaning

454
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 2: they do a lot of missionary stuff. I actually did

455
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 2: my missionary through the Southern Baptist Convention, which fun of fact,

456
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 2: I wasn't a member of, but I didn't know that. Yeah,

457
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 2: and they gave me money. I'm probably gonna be suit

458
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,400
Speaker 2: for that. But yeah, there's a lot to be said

459
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 2: about how powerful That's convention is if you look behind

460
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,679
Speaker 2: what they are a part of. They are heavily into politics,

461
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 2: even though they would claim they are not. And yeah,

462
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 2: they are part, not all, not all. Please understand Baptist people,

463
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,719
Speaker 2: if you're listening. I know there's so many good people

464
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,199
Speaker 2: who are horrified, and there are reports and individuals who

465
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 2: are horrified by this report they didn't know. But again,

466
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,399
Speaker 2: this might lend to the fact that things like purity

467
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 2: culture really really really make things too black and white

468
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 2: instead of seeing the gray when it comes to a

469
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 2: sexual assault. And by the way, if they're teenagers and

470
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 2: you're an adult, there's no grade to that and it

471
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 2: should be really really easy, but yet it's not, which

472
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 2: is also why we have a problem with child brides.

473
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 2: But many of the states don't and Republicans don't. Who

474
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 2: would consider themselves Southern Baptists or Baptist Protestants, which is

475
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 2: an interesting conversation in itself, but here's to hoping that

476
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 2: movements like hashtag church too, which is very very active

477
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 2: still on well as Twitter is dying has been active

478
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 2: on Twitter. I actually looked it up the other day.

479
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,360
Speaker 2: Hopefully we'll be able to see more stories, more accountability

480
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 2: through it. Again, the release of the list from the

481
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 2: Southern Baptist Convention just happened within this past year, so

482
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 2: we'll see how it results. We'll see what the do

483
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 2: fines and how they will hold leadership and power in

484
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 2: those denominations accountable.

485
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah, yeah, Well, there is so much to

486
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: uncover and unpack and undue because for most of us,

487
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,719
Speaker 1: your kids when you are kind of indoctrinated with all

488
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 1: of this stuff. So it is a lot. But we

489
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: will continue with. However, many episodes this Vinny series.

490
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 2: Will be, and some of them will be shorter like this,

491
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 2: because it is a gut punch.

492
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, there will be some bricks. There will be

493
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: some bricks in between. But in the meantime, listeners, if

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00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: you have any resources thoughts about this, you can email

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00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 1: us at step Medium mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.

496
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at Momstuff podcast, or

497
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: on Instagram and TikTok at stuff When Never Told You.

498
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: You can also find us on YouTube, but we also

499
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: have a book. You can pre order it at stuff

500
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: you Should Read books dot com. Thanks is always to

501
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya, and our

502
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: contributor Joey. Thank you all, yes, and thanks to you

503
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: for listening. Stefan Never Told You is production of iHeartRadio.

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00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:11,280
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