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Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realist, we have an exciting collaborative classic for

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Speaker 1: you this evening. We're big, big fans of a show

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Speaker 1: called Stuff to Blow Your Mind, featuring our good friends

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Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and Joe McCormick. We gotta tell you, they

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Speaker 1: class up the show every time they drop by. Do

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Speaker 1: you guys remember this one?

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Speaker 2: I don't know, man, I feel like time kind of

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Speaker 2: stood still while we were making this, and I could

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Speaker 2: see the matrix a.

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Speaker 1: Little little flash forward.

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Speaker 3: Whatever. The opposite of deja.

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Speaker 4: Vu is some really good sushi recipes in them, in

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Speaker 4: them lines of code.

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Speaker 2: Oh wait, wait, maybe it was the shrooms.

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Speaker 3: Maybe it was.

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Speaker 1: We know that there is a renaissance in recent years

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Speaker 1: with psychedelic research, especially in processing trauma or PTSD, and

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Speaker 1: back in twenty nineteen, we had Robert over to explore

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Speaker 1: kind of the smoke and mirrors, the hype versus the

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Speaker 1: fact versus the fiction of psychedelics, and this was just

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Speaker 1: such a rewarding and bizarre conversation.

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Speaker 4: Indeed, let's jump right into said rewarding conversation about psil

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Speaker 4: A Simon and psychedelic experiences.

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Speaker 3: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 3: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 3: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 3: production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: her name is Noah.

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Speaker 3: They call me Ben.

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Speaker 1: We are joined as always with our super producer Paul,

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Speaker 1: Mission control deck, and most.

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Speaker 3: Importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 1: You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't

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Speaker 1: want you to know. Today we've got to welcome you back. Noel,

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Speaker 1: you've been on some trips recently. You have not been

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Speaker 1: tripping necessarily.

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Speaker 5: You don't know that.

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Speaker 3: I don't. I just said necessarily necessarily means I'm not

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Speaker 3: saying Norge.

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Speaker 5: And I was in San Francisco for for a little while.

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Speaker 6: That would have been a good opportunity to do that,

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Speaker 6: but it did not cross my path.

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Speaker 1: And in today's episode, for anyone who didn't bother to

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Speaker 1: read the title, you were so excited you just jumped in.

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Speaker 1: Today's episode is about tripping. It's about.

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Speaker 3: Psychedelics, hallucinogens, so.

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Speaker 2: One in particular, and in the past we've talked a

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Speaker 2: little more broadly about hallucinogens and psychedelics in our episodes.

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Speaker 2: Avid listeners would remember, did hallucinogens create religion? Or can

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Speaker 2: hallucinogen's cure addiction? But today we're drilling down into one

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Speaker 2: specific substance, and we've brought someone away along with us

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Speaker 2: to help.

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Speaker 1: That's right, We are not diving into this rabbit hole alone.

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Speaker 1: Please welcome to the show our good friend, co host

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Speaker 1: of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, co host of Invention,

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Speaker 1: mister Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 7: Hey, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: We're very excited that you're here. Robert. We very much

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Speaker 2: are looking to you as an expert, well because you

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Speaker 2: not long ago completed a I believe five part series

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Speaker 2: on this very substance on Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, me and my co host Joe McCormick, we did

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Speaker 7: five part look at psilocybin, psychedelics in general, but with

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Speaker 7: very much a focus on psilocybin.

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Speaker 6: It's an interesting time for that, especially because I think

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Speaker 6: the tide is sort of turning in terms of not

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Speaker 6: only public opinion, but even just the laws surrounding. It's

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Speaker 6: getting loosened up in a lot of places, and there's

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Speaker 6: legitimate research being done using psilocybin to treat things like

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Speaker 6: depression or anxiety or what have you.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I think that the research area is perhaps the

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Speaker 7: most exciting area to look at because there's a lot

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Speaker 7: of progress made, you know, back in the fifties and sixties,

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Speaker 7: and then of course things died down almost you know,

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Speaker 7: to a trickle to a crawl for decades, and now

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Speaker 7: we're living in a true renaissance of psychedelic research, you know,

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Speaker 7: where researchers have picked up where others left off and

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Speaker 7: are you know, continuing to really explore the healing potential

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Speaker 7: of these substances.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And a lot of this has to do with

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Speaker 2: the social morase, right, the way substances and certain drugs

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Speaker 2: have been viewed over the course of history.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: But before we get too deep into this, let's talk

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Speaker 2: about what we're talking about. What is psilocybin?

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Speaker 7: Okay, Well, psilocybin, for charters, is a psychedelic and you know,

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Speaker 7: the term itself is from the Greek words for soul

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Speaker 7: or mind and manifesting, but in particular, psilocybin is a

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Speaker 7: trip to mind psychedelic. It naturally occurs in some two

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Speaker 7: hundred different varieties of mushroom, and the primary compounds responsible

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Speaker 7: for its psychedelic effects are psilocybin and silosine, which ultimately

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Speaker 7: amount to pretty much the same thing, since psilocybin breaks

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Speaker 7: down into silicon inside the body, and you know, compared

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Speaker 7: to almost all other known drugs, psilocybin has an exceptionally

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Speaker 7: low potential for abuse and exceptionally few known physiological risks.

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Speaker 1: Right right, It turns out that many of the urban

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Speaker 1: legends people have heard about people about folks taking magic

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Speaker 1: mushrooms and then going completely insane for the rest of

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Speaker 1: their lives are just that urban legends. They're also I believe,

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Speaker 1: no proven fatalities due to this substance.

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Speaker 7: Well, it's I guess two things are worth worth pointing out.

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Speaker 7: Like for starters, a certain segment of the population can

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Speaker 7: experience psychological ramification, so people with a predisposition for say, schizophrenia,

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Speaker 7: and that's a something that everyone should always keep in mind.

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Speaker 7: On the other hand, I mean, they are powerful substances.

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Speaker 7: They're not you know, it's not bubblegum. Set and setting

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Speaker 7: are extremely important. The mental state that that one has

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Speaker 7: going into using these substances is extremely important, and so

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Speaker 7: there therefore it's you know, it's very possible for especially

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Speaker 7: as you know, a young person who hasn't, you know, say,

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Speaker 7: put a lot of thought into what is going to happen.

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Speaker 7: It's very possible for them to have a challenging time.

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Speaker 1: I guess the thing I'm clarifying here is while all

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Speaker 1: of that is true, there has also been this persistent

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Speaker 1: this this persistent public image of psilocybin or hallucinogens in

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Speaker 1: general as something that someone would ingest one at one

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Speaker 1: point in their lives and then for the rest of

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Speaker 1: the natural span of their of their life they would

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Speaker 1: be functionally insane or unwell or unable to perform as

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Speaker 1: a regular member of society. And I think that's fake.

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Speaker 1: That's propaganda, right, that's negative PR and the War on drugs.

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Speaker 6: And speaking of PR, just really quickly, we're not, as

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Speaker 6: we do with any ideas we discuss, not saying you

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Speaker 6: should believe this or this is something you should go

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Speaker 6: out and do, or saying you should go out and

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Speaker 6: microdose and take psilocybin today it'll improve your life. We're

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Speaker 6: just going through some of the effects, some of the

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Speaker 6: history and some of the current research and the news

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Speaker 6: behind it. And speaking of that, there was a study

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Speaker 6: that just came out from Global Drug Survey to your point.

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Speaker 6: Band that pulled close to one hundred and twenty thousand

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Speaker 6: people in fifty different countries about their drug and alcohol consumption,

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Speaker 6: and twelve thousand people in that survey said they did

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Speaker 6: mushrooms in twenty sixteen, and only zero point two percent

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Speaker 6: of them said they needed emergency medical care afterward, as

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Speaker 6: opposed to that was five or six times lower than LSD, cocaine, MDMA,

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Speaker 6: and alcohol, and three times lower than marijuana.

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Speaker 2: So well, and there's also something to be said here

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Speaker 2: about combination of substance. When you do those, there's always

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Speaker 2: a danger there.

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Speaker 3: If someone could die being in an unsafe setting or

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Speaker 3: a situation. Right, Yeah, they caused them to behave erratically.

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Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, And just to kind of harp one last

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Speaker 2: time on this point both that everybody's kind of making here.

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Speaker 2: There is a small segment of the population that should

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Speaker 2: never likely should never try psilocybin, but for the overwhelming majority,

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Speaker 2: it is not something that's going to cause deleterious effects, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, one more statistic here. It looks like about eight

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Speaker 1: percent of the US population people counting people over twenty

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Speaker 1: six eight percent of people over twenty six years old

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Speaker 1: have at least self reported using some sort of hallucinogen.

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Speaker 1: Is that number higher in actuality maybe, but not that much.

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Speaker 1: So again, this war on drugs meantality doesn't really track.

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Speaker 1: It is not as if one out of three people

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Speaker 1: on the street are tripping their balls off or something,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And to Robert's point, it's

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Speaker 1: not something Well, historically psychedelics played a more formal role

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Speaker 1: in human experience, or a more spiritual role, rather than

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Speaker 1: a recreational role.

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Speaker 5: One hundred percent.

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Speaker 6: And that's I think in terms of the tide turning.

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Speaker 6: It's starting to be seen more like that instead of

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Speaker 6: just some thing that you pop for Jolly's at a

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Speaker 6: concert or something like that.

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Speaker 1: You know, this is something that fascinating me about your

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Speaker 1: discussion on stuff to blow your mind, Robert. When we

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Speaker 1: get to the nuts and bolts of psilocybin specifically, how

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Speaker 1: much do we know about how it actually works in

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Speaker 1: the human brain.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, well, we still don't know for sure the exact

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Speaker 7: neurochemical mechanism, but classic psychedelics appear to bind to a

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Speaker 7: specific subclass of serotonin receptor, the serotonin serotonin two A receptor,

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Speaker 7: and these receptors are found concentrated in the human cortex,

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Speaker 7: which is the outer layer of the cerebellum, which is

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Speaker 7: associated with a lot of the lot of higher brain functions,

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Speaker 7: you know, sensation, speech, of course, language, voluntary action. You know.

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Speaker 7: So when you take a psychedelic like LSD or psilocybin mushrooms,

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Speaker 7: the active ingredient, the active compounds make their way into

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Speaker 7: the brain and sort of act as act as serotonin

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Speaker 7: binding to these receptors. But yeah, there are a lot

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Speaker 7: of a lot of questions to still remain about exactly

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Speaker 7: how it works. So a lot of questions remain exactly

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Speaker 7: regarding how serotonin really works in our minds.

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Speaker 2: Well, there are a lot of stories that are a

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Speaker 2: little more anecdotal about or I guess, let's say, tales

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Speaker 2: of what psilocybin actually is and how it functions within

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Speaker 2: the body outside of the medical research right about it

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Speaker 2: being conscious way, I mean, there are all kinds of

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Speaker 2: things we can get into later in here. I mean,

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Speaker 2: there are stories that you will find across the internet

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Speaker 2: and perhaps hear from acquaintances of yours that go and

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Speaker 2: go a little deeper into the strangeness.

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Speaker 6: But let's imagine that there was like a big pharma

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Speaker 6: type commercial for psilocybin. And let's let's think about what

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Speaker 6: would be rattled off at the end, the things that

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Speaker 6: could be caused, things like nazi obomitaing, abominal crams and

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Speaker 6: diary and muscle relaxation, weak dis in, twitches, yawning, drowsiness, dizziness,

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Speaker 6: light headedness, and lack of coordination, people dilation, tearing, dry

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Speaker 6: mouth and facial flushing, increased heart rate, blood pressure and

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Speaker 6: body temperature, sweating followed by shells and shivering, none us

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Speaker 6: of tongue, lips or mouth, feeling of physical heaviness or lightness,

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Speaker 6: and feeling of floating.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, and I was just reading the other day about

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Speaker 7: how how DARPA is interested in in basically harnessing all

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Speaker 7: of this without the mind altering aspect.

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Speaker 1: Just to weaponize it essentially, U DARPA our our eternal

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Speaker 1: fourth co host.

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Speaker 3: You know. So there's there's another thing here.

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Speaker 1: When we're when we're dwelling on the anecdotal stuff, we

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Speaker 1: do have to say that this very quickly gets us

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Speaker 1: into some of the more out there or fringe concepts, beliefs,

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Speaker 1: authors and before we get to those ideas which are

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Speaker 1: grand and many are as beautiful as they are unprovable,

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Speaker 1: but they're all based on not so much the physical

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Speaker 1: sensations people encounter, but the psychological situations they encounter. And

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Speaker 1: this I think Matt is directly tying into some of

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Speaker 1: the anecdotes you've mentioned. Everybody has sort of a lot

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Speaker 1: of people rather who try hallucinogens have this kind of

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Speaker 1: hero's journey tail, right, And sometimes it's full of young

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Speaker 1: yn archetypes. Sometimes it's just full of strange perceptions of

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Speaker 1: time and space or even senasthesia.

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Speaker 6: Things much less easy to quantify in a rattled off

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Speaker 6: list at rapid fire at the end of a television commercial.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, the the ineffable aspect of it is

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Speaker 7: is always a key factor. Michael Polin has an excellent

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Speaker 7: book that came out this year about psychedelics's called How

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Speaker 7: to Change Your Mind, which which I recommend to everybody,

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Speaker 7: just just a wonderful read. But in an interview with

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Speaker 7: Terry Gross, he mentioned that William James once said that

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Speaker 7: the mystical experience of psychedelics is ineffable, yet we try

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Speaker 7: very hard to ef it. So yeah, so I think

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Speaker 7: that's a big thing to keep in mind with the

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Speaker 7: subjective experiences of psychedelics is that, first of all, it's

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Speaker 7: highly susceptible to set in setting, it's highly susceptible to

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Speaker 7: your mindset going into it. Therefore, it's also highly susceptible

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Speaker 7: to stories you've heard about the use of psychedelics, be

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Speaker 7: it inspiring tales from you know, various you know, psychonauts,

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Speaker 7: or the scare tactics of the moral panic and the

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Speaker 7: war on drugs that you know that popped up in

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Speaker 7: the wake of the counterculture. And then after we had

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Speaker 7: those experiences, we of course have memories of those experiences,

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Speaker 7: and memories are highly susceptible to us then tinkering the narrative.

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Speaker 1: That's I'm sorry for anyone who who can't see because

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Speaker 1: this is an audio podcast. When you said that, Robert,

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Speaker 1: that's I had the point across the table, because yes,

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Speaker 1: memory is a treacherous territory, right, it's a it's a

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Speaker 1: domain where you cannot really trust the geography you encounter.

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Speaker 1: And I want to go back to hallucinogens in general.

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Speaker 1: I think, growing up, at least here in the West,

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Speaker 1: many many children, when they encounter the idea of hallucinogens,

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Speaker 1: they encounter a very fictionalized representation of this, right, somebody

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Speaker 1: ingest something, maybe Alice in Wonderland would be a good example.

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Speaker 1: Somebody ingests something and then their concept the time and

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Speaker 1: space changes right or size right, and then they begin

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Speaker 1: to see visibly strange creatures, right, the white rabbits and

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Speaker 1: so on. But is that nonsense? Is that true when

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Speaker 1: people take psilocybin? Is are they seeing visual entities?

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Speaker 3: Or it seems like.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of Uh, there's a lot of malarkey

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Speaker 1: about hallucination out there.

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Speaker 3: So what's the fact. What's the fiction?

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Speaker 7: Well, I mean, I think a lot of the mallarchy

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Speaker 7: does come from media representations of it. And part of

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Speaker 7: that is that it's difficult to capture the psychoedepic experience

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Speaker 7: in a fictional medium, be it a book, certainly in

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Speaker 7: a movie. And then so a lot of the examples

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Speaker 7: we have, they're gonna they're gonna be more like a

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Speaker 7: dream sequence. They're going to you know, they might not

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Speaker 7: be that well executed, and they are also probably going

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Speaker 7: to play into something that's more dramatic, right, maybe even

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Speaker 7: something more horrific as a means of just advancing whatever

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Speaker 7: story they're telling.

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Speaker 5: Do you guys remember the go ask Alice No. So

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Speaker 5: it was a.

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Speaker 6: Nineteen seventy one fictional book for young adults written by

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Speaker 6: written anonymously, and at the time, like when I was

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Speaker 6: a kid, it was a required book we had to read.

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Speaker 6: And it's basically the story of this young girl who

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Speaker 6: starts taking drugs and ultimately takes psychedelics and ends up

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Speaker 6: like throwing herself off a building and like die. And

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Speaker 6: it's now looked at as utter propaganda, but I was

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Speaker 6: forced to read it, and it was in the era

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Speaker 6: of Dare where they come through the school with like

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Speaker 6: a giant suitcase full of every drug and point.

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Speaker 5: It out and tell you all about it, all of

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Speaker 5: these horror stories.

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Speaker 6: But I gotta say, the giant suitcase of drugs, just

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Speaker 6: as a kid, I'm like, oh, I want to try

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Speaker 6: that one and that one and that one.

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Speaker 7: Well, it makes you think of Hunter S. Thompson exactly,

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Speaker 7: of course, which, of course the book and of certainly

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Speaker 7: the movie are I think for a lot of people

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Speaker 7: were kind of like their first or at least an

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Speaker 7: early introduction into what the psychedelic experience might consist of.

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Speaker 7: And yet at the same time that movie is completely ridiculous,

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Speaker 7: course of course depiction of things, you know, like, I mean,

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Speaker 7: it's wonderful, but it is. It's a highly uh it

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Speaker 7: highly depends on depictions of hallucination, visual hallucination, the Las

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Speaker 7: Vegas movie in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, just so and this This is interesting though, especially

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Speaker 1: the point about Hunter S. Thompson, because while that is

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Speaker 1: still very much gonzo right, very much his genre, there

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Speaker 1: are true events there that formed the kernel of this.

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Speaker 1: So we are reading what do they always say, you know,

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Speaker 1: a made for TV movie is more or less bs

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Speaker 1: when that little card comes up at the front of

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Speaker 1: the show and it says inspired by true events, inspired

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Speaker 1: by actual events. So we can say then that a

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Speaker 1: lot of a lot of Hunter S. Thompson's work was

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Speaker 1: inspired by true events, if not, you know, with a

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Speaker 1: lot of poetic license, but there's still a factual account.

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Speaker 3: And if we look.

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Speaker 1: Back through the canon, you know, Hunter S. Thompson go

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Speaker 1: ask Alice various shamanic experiences, we see that people have

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Speaker 1: been writing about this stuff for a very very long time,

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Speaker 1: and have been doing it since before we figured out

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Speaker 1: how to write things right.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, I mean, really, you look at so many

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Speaker 7: ancient cultures and it's difficult to find an example of

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Speaker 7: one where there's not a case or a definite a

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Speaker 7: strong case or a definite case to be made for

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Speaker 7: leucinogenics playing psychedelics playing some sort of role in their society.

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Speaker 7: I mean, it was part of shamanistic practices and still

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Speaker 7: remains a part of shamanistic practices in certain parts of

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Speaker 7: the world.

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Speaker 2: I'd just like to jump back really fast to the

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Speaker 2: Maryland Center physiological effects of ingesting psilocybin, because I think

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Speaker 2: there are a couple in here that speak directly to

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Speaker 2: what we're talking about that are the reason that this

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Speaker 2: type of substance is used in shamanistic practices and has

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Speaker 2: been for so long. Just very very specifically, the heightened

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Speaker 2: sensory perceptions that can occur.

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Speaker 7: That's probably when dark is most interested in.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, exactly, the time and space being altered, like

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Speaker 2: the feelings of time and space being altered, right, as

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Speaker 2: well as the detachment from the self from the body,

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Speaker 2: basically the third personing that can occur with these substances,

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Speaker 2: and it is it's those three combined becomes such a

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Speaker 2: potent avenue to explore I guess, your own consciousness or

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Speaker 2: the feelings that you're having within that moment and the

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Speaker 2: single person's connection to the greater universe or nature or

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Speaker 2: the spirit whatever is being worshiped. You know, you can

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Speaker 2: really see it as a potent tool.

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Speaker 6: And it's not as it doesn't have to be even

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Speaker 6: that lofty. It could be something as simple as your

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Speaker 6: connection to something like television, the concept of like watching

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Speaker 6: television and what that means, and how you interact with

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Speaker 6: something like that, and don't even think about what it is.

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Speaker 6: Under the influence of something like this, you might see

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Speaker 6: it completely different. In question how much time you spend

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Speaker 6: with this box, watching other people doing things on TV

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Speaker 6: and your relationship that might seem very normal. Otherwise, all

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Speaker 6: of a sudden you start to question and be like,

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Speaker 6: why am I doing this? Why am I putting so

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Speaker 6: much emphasis on this experience.

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Speaker 1: I like that you mentioned that because there are some

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Speaker 1: studies that indicate, if not necessarily psilocybin, some hallucinogens are

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Speaker 1: very helpful with people who are struggling with habits or addictions,

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Speaker 1: right anything from smoking to I imagine, I haven't seen

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Speaker 1: a study on it, but I imagine what if there's

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Speaker 1: someone who watches too much TV and they're like, drop this,

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Speaker 1: now watch this Marathon as Seinfeld.

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Speaker 6: It's just associations in general, right, the idea. Let's say

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Speaker 6: I'm addicted to cigarettes. In my mind, this is a

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Speaker 6: steadfast part of who I am under the influence of psychedelics.

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Speaker 6: You might be able to take a step back and

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Speaker 6: see it as something that you can just very easily

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Speaker 6: cast off or take or leave, you know.

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Speaker 1: So there's a high level look at the nuts and

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Speaker 1: bolts of psilocybin in specific, some of the history, some

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Speaker 1: of the current research, and I think a pretty accurate

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Speaker 1: look at the controversy and the mechanics of the experience. Right,

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Speaker 1: But what if there is more to the story. What

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Speaker 1: if there is something beyond these psychological effects that compels

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Speaker 1: our species and has compelled it for thousands of years

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Speaker 1: to pursue these hallucinogenic experiences. Here's where it gets crazy.

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Speaker 1: There's this author named Terrence McKenna. Terrence McKenna was born

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Speaker 1: in nineteen forty six. And if you are familiar with

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Speaker 1: characters such as Timothy Leary, if you are familiar with

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Speaker 1: the revolution of hallucinogens right through the sixties into the

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Speaker 1: seventies and so on, then you have heard this name before.

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Speaker 1: You may have read books like Food of the Gods,

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Speaker 1: the Search for the Original Tree of Knowledge, and shout

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Speaker 1: out to my friend Henry if you are listening, because

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Speaker 1: this is the part of the episode that I think

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Speaker 1: you will find incredibly fascinating. This guy's a friend of ours.

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Speaker 1: Will sometimes write to me and try to get us

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Speaker 1: to do another psychedelic episode. So you're helping us very much, Robert,

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Speaker 1: because you've read some Terrence McKenna, right.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, I've been on something of a Terrence McKenna

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Speaker 7: kick recently, And yeah, McKenna is a fascinating individual, wonderful writer,

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Speaker 7: wonderful speaker too. There's no shortage of YouTube streams and

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Speaker 7: whatnot available out there. You can you can listen to

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Speaker 7: him present his ideas to people. He you know, I

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Speaker 7: think it's it's fair to compare him to Timothy Leary

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Speaker 7: in a sense, like in kind of a way, he

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Speaker 7: was kind of feeling that the void, you know, feeling

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Speaker 7: that the place for a you know, spokesperson for the

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Speaker 7: psychedelic experience in the counter country culture, especially during the

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Speaker 7: nineteen nineties. But he also, I think, in many respects,

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Speaker 7: is more it feels felt more authentic than Leary. Leary

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Speaker 7: was also a fascinating individual who certainly said some profound

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Speaker 7: things and played a powerful role in the counterculture. At

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Speaker 7: the same time, had plenty of faults to go around

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Speaker 7: as well. Yes, and it definitely like leaned into the

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Speaker 7: sort of guru nature that was you know, that was

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Speaker 7: given to him. But McKinnon is fascinating from a number

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Speaker 7: of standpoints. Certainly is his commentary on psychedelic but he

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Speaker 7: also wrote and spoke about it's various aspects of the

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Speaker 7: human experience.

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Speaker 1: This name may be unfamiliar to some of us listening today,

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Speaker 1: but you may have already encountered some of his ideas, right,

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Speaker 1: because when we talk about a hallucinogenic psychedelic experience, we're humans, right.

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Speaker 1: Our brains are built to kind of categorize and group things,

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Speaker 1: and so it's no surprise that, similar to reports of

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Speaker 1: near death experiences, some hallucinogens and some people's experience using

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Speaker 1: them appear to have trends. And that's when you'll hear

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Speaker 1: people tell you with complete conviction that they have not

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Speaker 1: only gone to a new realm of consciousness, but they

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Speaker 1: encountered something there when they took the substance.

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Speaker 2: Right, and the big question for me here when we're

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Speaker 2: discussing something like this is if you are going to

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Speaker 2: go down that route, there is a shared experience in

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Speaker 2: some way when using these substances. Is it a shared

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Speaker 2: thing with the humans and our biological systems and the

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Speaker 2: history of our biological systems, or is it something with

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Speaker 2: the substance itself that is either unlocking something within us

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Speaker 2: or is imparting something, Which is always an interesting sort.

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Speaker 6: Of the idea of a collective unconsciousness that people are

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Speaker 6: tapping unconscious people are tapping into kind.

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Speaker 7: Of yeah, And I think a big part of it

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Speaker 7: comes back to what we do believe that psychedelics are doing.

434
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 7: Basic One of the analogies I love is the shaking

435
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 7: of the snow globe, shaking things up, changing your perspective,

436
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 7: putting you in a mindset that could enable you to

437
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 7: overcome various addictions. Again, that's one of the area where

438
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 7: we see some wonderful, you know, research results. But and again,

439
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 7: it's not the psychedelic substances themselves that are treating or

440
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 7: could be used to treat addictions, but it is the

441
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 7: state that they invoke, the psychedelic experience itself. And and

442
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 7: so if you're you know, if you're put in a

443
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 7: state where suddenly you're seeing everything from new perspectives, it

444
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 7: can certainly put you in a state where you can

445
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,920
Speaker 7: you can have some rather you know, almost alien interpretations

446
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 7: of of what's going on inside your brain and what's

447
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 7: going on inside reality.

448
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 6: Really quick, as far as the research, do you know

449
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 6: we can look this up if if no one does,

450
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,439
Speaker 6: is there any study that goes into like does it

451
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 6: change your brain on a physiological level or level?

452
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 4: Yeah?

453
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 6: Or is it more about you remembering the experience and

454
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 6: applying that to your life in terms of using it

455
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,199
Speaker 6: as treatment or in terms of the lasting impact of

456
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 6: an experience like this.

457
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 7: Unless I'm forgetting a key study, I don't don't believe

458
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 7: there are any any studies that point to like fixed changes.

459
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:50,640
Speaker 7: And you know the structure of the brain.

460
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 5: I wouldn't have thought so either.

461
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 6: To me, it seems more like I'm learning, I'm having

462
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 6: a session where I'm experiencing something that I'm remembering that

463
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 6: and almost it doesn't require you to repeat the experiences

464
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 6: over and over again. You can just do it a

465
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:03,679
Speaker 6: handful of time, in the same way you can go

466
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 6: to therapy. You don't have to be in therapy twenty

467
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 6: four to seven. You go occasionally and you learn from

468
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 6: that and take your experiences and apply them to your life.

469
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's behavior, not going to change your DNA, which

470
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 7: I think there were something some grand his stories about

471
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 7: that back in the day. But yeah, I think it's

472
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 7: it's it comes back to the idea that they are

473
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 7: physiologically rather benign, but psychologically powerful and that's where the

474
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 7: impact is.

475
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 1: I did see I did see a study about some

476
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 1: hallucinogen I think it was those the psychedelic drugs LSD

477
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 1: and ecstasy, not mushrooms.

478
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 7: And now technically in DMA is not a psychedelic.

479
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: Right right that I think they grouped it specifically LSD,

480
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,880
Speaker 1: and then they also studied ecstasy or in DMA, and

481
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: they've found that there can be some physical alteration of

482
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 1: the brain. But to these researchers, let's see who was this.

483
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: This is de Olsen, who's an assistant professor of chemistry

484
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 1: and molecular Medicine at UC Davis. What they found seemed

485
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,959
Speaker 1: to be potentially beneficial or rather than something damaging. They

486
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 1: thought it could have benefits for people with certain mood disorders.

487
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,159
Speaker 1: But I haven't I haven't seen a ton of the

488
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: a ton of the research that would indicate, you know

489
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 1: what you're talking about, in all some kind of massive

490
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 1: system wide physical change in the brain. And I think

491
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 1: part of that is because our research was stymied for

492
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: so long, right, due to some of the social concerns

493
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 1: and taboos mentioned earlier. And that's why, that's why some

494
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 1: of these concepts that are still so very very out there.

495
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: You know, the idea that accidental ingestion and then later

496
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: purposeful ingestion of hallucinogenic materials led to religion, right or

497
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 1: what's the The other one is the Terrence McKenna talked about.

498
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 5: The stoned ape there, yeah, that, yeah.

499
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 7: Yeah, the stoned ape hypothesis, which is which is a fabulous,

500
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 7: a very entertaining hypothesis. And his book Food to the

501
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 7: Gods is is is really I found a really rewarding read.

502
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 6: Tell us a bit about that, because this goes into

503
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 6: those the heightened sensory perception that we talked to.

504
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 7: That's one of the that's one of the key. So

505
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 7: he makes this argument that that human consciousness emerges in

506
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 7: large part due to the consumption of psychedelics by our

507
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 7: our prehistoric ancestors, and he made the case he makes

508
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,959
Speaker 7: is you know, incomplete. It's you know, there's no way

509
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 7: to prove it, and maybe no way to really disprove it.

510
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 7: But yeah, he points to heightened perception, which I believe

511
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 7: there's been a recent study with with canines or or

512
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 7: canines or wolves, I forget which that that that showed

513
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 7: a similar situation like enhancing their ability to uh in

514
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 7: the case of dogs, you know, to to define their

515
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 7: food in the case of hunter gatherers, it could have

516
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 7: had an effect there. McKinnon also made an argument for

517
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 7: like enhancing the libido leading to more breeding, and then

518
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 7: just sort of a you know, an evolution of thought

519
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 7: and the rise of language and so forth. And then

520
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 7: he plays a lot too with like looking at like

521
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 7: where this would have occurred and how it would have occurred,

522
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 7: what substances might have occurred. Well, at the same time

523
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 7: acknowledging that it was written during the dark age of

524
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 7: psychedelic research, that there were still a lot of questions

525
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 7: remaining and certain archaeological finds he said, would need to

526
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 7: be made to like fully support his case.

527
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: And that's you know, that's one thing that gives him

528
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: a ton of street cred in my opinion, is being

529
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: able to say, okay, also we have to, you know,

530
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: wait for proof. Yeah, I think this is possible, but

531
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 1: let's wait till we see we see the bones. One

532
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: of the biggest walk aways I have whenever I read

533
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: some of the kind of stuff is I'll say, all right,

534
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: this is very this is very far away from what

535
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: maybe the mainstream thinks.

536
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 3: Right.

537
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: Certainly, it's far away from what the US federal government

538
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 1: officially thinks about psychedelics.

539
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 3: However, you know, you read stuff like that.

540
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: And you go back to medieval text that some really

541
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: probably intoxicated monks have been working on, and then you

542
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: see this strange art and you.

543
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 3: Think, you know, okay, it's plausible.

544
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 1: Maybe more people were using psychedelics than we thought. Right,

545
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: And the symbolism right in meso America, and I think

546
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:41,479
Speaker 1: we mentioned two various different manuscripts seem to have what

547
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: appears to be mushrooms of some sort playing these incredibly important,

548
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: significant symbolic roles.

549
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 5: Really quick diversion, I think the supplies though.

550
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 6: I've been reading this book called Sapiens by you've all,

551
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 6: Noah Harari, and it's the idea of the evolution of

552
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 6: man and I didn't realize that a lot of pre

553
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 6: Homo sapien species existed on the planet at the same time.

554
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 6: You have this sense of there being this like this

555
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 6: graph of like the you know, the slumped over pre

556
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 6: man developing into the upright man. But apparently all of

557
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 6: these kind of developed at the same time, and it

558
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 6: was Homo sapien's ability to develop language and be able

559
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 6: to tell stories and almost create these sort of belief

560
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 6: systems that led to us becoming the top of the

561
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 6: food chain. That's sort of the hypothesis in this book,

562
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 6: and it makes a lot of sense. And to me,

563
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 6: you know, maybe the ape that ate the psychedelic munth

564
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 6: room and kind of had his perception change would have

565
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 6: been the one that started to develop language or create

566
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 6: these more abstract ideas of storytelling. And it's something as

567
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 6: simple as me telling you a sort of fictional tale

568
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 6: about some animals interacting to inventing something like an LLC

569
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 6: like a corporation, or like the idea of money. That's

570
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 6: all just kind of fictions that we believe and we accept.

571
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 6: But that's what separates us from other species that can

572
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 6: only say the dog is over there, but they can't say,

573
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 6: you know, the dog talk to the cat and create

574
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 6: this narrative surrounding them, what.

575
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 1: The dog is over there, because that is the way

576
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: to access the afterlife.

577
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 2: Exactly exactly, guys. It's because they accessed the overmind. They

578
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 2: got down into the my celial connections. They figured out, oh,

579
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 2: it's all one big thing, you guys, and we're just

580
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 2: a part of it.

581
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 6: And I get the stone up thing is very unprovable,

582
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 6: but I think I'm on the same page with you, Robert,

583
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 6: that it's fascinating and I can kind of see how

584
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 6: that could be a leg up.

585
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 7: Yeah, Like I'm not I'm not really into saying like

586
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 7: it's the thing, sure, but I think there you can

587
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 7: certainly make a case that any substance or event or

588
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 7: experience that causes a person to sort of step outside

589
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 7: of their normal way of thinking, and that can be anything.

590
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 7: It could be It could be still ascybment, it could

591
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 7: be trauma, it could be a sickness. You know, there

592
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 7: are numerous things that can bring on these states like

593
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 7: those would undoubtedly have effects on the course of human

594
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 7: culture over time, just because they would be moments where

595
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 7: people would stop and say, why are we doing it?

596
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 5: This way.

597
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,839
Speaker 7: Why am I thinking about the world this way? What

598
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 7: if we did it like this instead?

599
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 1: Is in tradition just peer pressure from dead people. Come on, guys,

600
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 1: the sun will rise whether or not we sacrifice someone.

601
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: That's be very glib there. I do want to point out, though,

602
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 1: while Harari is an excellent writer, Sapiens toward the end

603
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,839
Speaker 1: feels a lot more speculative, and it feels like more

604
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 1: of his opinions and his beliefs. And that's something we

605
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 1: run into with McKenna. Both of these authors. However, I

606
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 1: believe we're careful to know are careful to couch things

607
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 1: as their beliefs. Right, Like you said, they're not necessarily

608
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 1: saying this is the way, this is the one hundred

609
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: percent consistent experience people have. But we do see some trends,

610
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: and some of those trends are inarguable and they are

611
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 1: easily proven, such as the spiritual use of these substances

612
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 1: to sometimes unite communities. Right, somebody goes maybe sometimes to

613
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 1: change someone's place in a society. Right, you have you

614
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 1: have undergone this right, this ritual. Therefore you are a

615
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: holy person, or maybe you are now an adult something

616
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 1: like that. And then also there's this connection to the

617
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: concept of the other world, the dream world, right, and

618
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 1: we I wonder how that translates to the modern day.

619
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 1: We know that there's still some traditional use of hallucinogens

620
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 1: like ayahuasca, right, is still traditionally used by several different communities.

621
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:55,359
Speaker 1: But are there are there other things? Are there modern analogues?

622
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: I mean, is I guess part of the question is

623
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: people go to Burning Man, right, and they and they

624
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 1: take a hallucinogenic substance. Are they are they doing something

625
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 1: similar to the shamanistic quest? Or is it is it

626
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 1: just recreational?

627
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 3: I don't know.

628
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 1: That's also a very personal question, like how has our

629
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,800
Speaker 1: use of these substances changed.

630
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 7: Well, you know, I think you know, McKenna would have

631
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 7: certainly agreed that Burning Man is part of like this

632
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 7: bohemian thread that he called it, this thing that's you know,

633
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 7: moving us towards an archaic revival return to especially in

634
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 7: Western civilization, to to sort of almost a neolithic state

635
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 7: of not necessarily not really technology or a culture, but

636
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,760
Speaker 7: our connection with each other and our connection with nature.

637
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 7: That being said, yeah, I'm sure there are people at

638
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:55,839
Speaker 7: Burning Man who are just taking substances without a lot

639
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 7: of forethought and doing it just for you know, entertainment purposes,

640
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 7: if you will. And then there are people who are

641
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 7: having profound experiences and setting out to have profound experiences.

642
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,760
Speaker 6: Another big psychonaut. I guess who is still very much active.

643
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 6: Today's Alex Gray, who I know you're a fan of.

644
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 6: He's an incredible Yeah, he's a visual artist. He does

645
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:16,919
Speaker 6: these I don't know how you describe them. They're almost

646
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,320
Speaker 6: these mandala esque kind of where this flesh is stripped

647
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 6: away of figures. A lot of times there's sort of

648
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 6: mother and child kind of imagery, and it's very much

649
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:25,320
Speaker 6: this idea.

650
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 5: Of us as being soul.

651
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 6: And we haven't really talked about that aspect of the

652
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 6: psychedelic experience, but but i'd like to. But he has

653
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 6: been associated with the band Tool for years, doing art

654
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 6: for them, and they did like a listening party for

655
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 6: this new Tool record that came out on this giant

656
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 6: dragon like mad Max looking dragon boat truck thing. I

657
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 6: don't know what you call it. But he's a guy

658
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:49,439
Speaker 6: who it's so funny like Terrence McKenna, very funny sounding guy.

659
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 6: His voice, the way he speaks, Alex Gray sounds very similar.

660
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 6: I wonder if that if there's something about the fact

661
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,760
Speaker 6: that they've been using these substances so frequently that causes

662
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,439
Speaker 6: them to almost become a certain way.

663
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 5: Well, I don't know.

664
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 1: I mean we really can know, though, I mean, we

665
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 1: won't know until there's an opportunity to do a longitudinal study.

666
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 5: Absolutely, and I'm not making fun or light at all.

667
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 6: They just both have a very similar way that they speak,

668
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 6: in a way that they kind of carry themselves.

669
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 5: And I don't know.

670
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 6: I only just heard Alex Gray speak like the other

671
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 6: day and I was like, he sounds just like Terrence McKenna.

672
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 7: Well, well maybe to a certain extent teriance that definitely

673
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 7: had a real knack for speaking in a way of

674
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 7: stressing certain words come out of his mouth like he

675
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 7: had a wonderful cadence. Again, he's all over YouTube, so

676
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 7: you can findious talks.

677
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 5: He's on a tool song.

678
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:51,760
Speaker 6: I believe Third Eye isn't isn't there sample.

679
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 7: But he does show up in some I've heard some

680
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 7: electronic tracks. There's a there's actually an artist by the

681
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 7: name of We Plants Are Happy Plants, and they have

682
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 7: an album that has an extended sample from mckennada.

683
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 3: It's really cool.

684
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 7: And I think that artist also did a like a

685
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 7: full length sort of documentary that's that's available just for

686
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 7: free on YouTube.

687
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeh.

688
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 1: DJs love sampling Terence McKinnon because again he has such

689
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 1: this vast catalog of recorded recorded speeches and monologues. And

690
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 1: also I mentioned the longitudinal study not to not to

691
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 1: woosh on a joke, but to return to one of

692
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 1: the things you said at the very top of the

693
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: show today, Robert, you talked about this renaissance, right which

694
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 1: in which we are currently living. We're recording this during

695
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: a renaissance of research into psychedelics, into psilocybin. But we

696
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:57,280
Speaker 1: can't have a renaissance unless it is preceded by some

697
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 1: sort of dark age, and and that's we call these

698
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: things a renaissance. So we know that during the seventies

699
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:10,320
Speaker 1: and eighties there was intense and to the nineties as well,

700
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:15,359
Speaker 1: there was an intense push by Uncle Sam to make

701
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:20,240
Speaker 1: sure people were aware of at least the US legal

702
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 1: opinion of psychedelics, which was that they were up that

703
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: any dare kid can tell you they were up there

704
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: with heroin, with crack and things like that.

705
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's Schedule one still in most places.

706
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: And it's funny to call it schedule one, you know

707
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 1: what I mean, like when does the train leave?

708
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 3: I don't know. That's confusing when you're a child.

709
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, I mean it's complete nonsense, obviously. I mean,

710
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 7: schedule one means that there's this supposed to have no

711
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 7: medical properties at all. But and yet so you have

712
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 7: psilocybin schedule one, marijuana schedule one, cocaine schedule two.

713
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, I feel like that's Dennis. They can Dennis use cocaine.

714
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:57,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like.

715
00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 1: That that says something about the people who made the list.

716
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 1: And someone was like, I don't know, man, you know,

717
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,360
Speaker 1: if i've uh, if I've had if I if I

718
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,399
Speaker 1: need a little extra kick before the meeting. Yeah, it's

719
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:11,280
Speaker 1: cocaine as schedule too. It's it's as it's as flawed

720
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:17,399
Speaker 1: as the food pyramid, honestly. But now we see these

721
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 1: indications that we've been sort of foreshadowing and talking about

722
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: during the length of today's show, which are research forays

723
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 1: or pushes into things like treating addiction PTSD.

724
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 3: Right, could you could you.

725
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about I don't want to

726
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 1: enter into speculation, but if you tell us a little

727
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 1: bit about what possibilities people are seeing out there for

728
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 1: the you know, the future of humanity's relationship to psychedelics,

729
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: as well as the potential findings research trends we might

730
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:53,240
Speaker 1: see in the future.

731
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:55,879
Speaker 7: Well, I'd say the big research trends are of course

732
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 7: the treatment of various addictions and and a lot of

733
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 7: that's going back. Like one of the real precursors to

734
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 7: that was like pre nineteen seventies studies that looked at

735
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 7: its usefulness to treat alcoholism specifically, they were using LSD

736
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 7: because that's what was available back then, And now most

737
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 7: of the studies are using psilocybin because it is more

738
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 7: readily available, it is less made taboo by the nineteen sixties.

739
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 5: Also a less long act.

740
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, you can do it without the doctors having

741
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,919
Speaker 7: to babysit right people for an extended period time. People

742
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 7: can go home in the evening. But yeah, we're seeing

743
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 7: a lot of advancements in the treatment of various addictions,

744
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 7: but also the treatment of end of life anxiety and

745
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 7: cancer depression.

746
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:42,839
Speaker 2: That to me is its huge because if we can

747
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 2: imagine long term in the world using a substance like

748
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 2: this to make people just almost if it's just a

749
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 2: thing that occurs from some point moving forward where people

750
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 2: are just okay, satisfied with the life that they've lived,

751
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 2: no matter what good or terrible things have occurred within

752
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 2: that life, but they are satisfied that the end is

753
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 2: coming and it is, you know, either not the end,

754
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 2: you know, not fully the end because of the way

755
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 2: this substance is making me feel, or that I'm going

756
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 2: to be recombined in some way with the universe. Just

757
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 2: having those positive feelings towards the ends of life for

758
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:29,280
Speaker 2: everyone could be an incredible thing for I think humanity.

759
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 6: I think it just again, it's all about reframing an experience.

760
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 6: It's less about oh, everything's gonna be okay because I

761
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 6: see a beautiful light and I'm going to quote unquote

762
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 6: heaven or some kind of beyond or universe connective thing.

763
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 5: To me.

764
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 6: It's like, in the same way that psychedelis could reframe

765
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 6: your thinking about smoking cigarettes, it could also reframe your

766
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:53,840
Speaker 6: thinking about death.

767
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think that's the important part.

768
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 7: And it's something we didn't already touched on earlier, but

769
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,399
Speaker 7: it's very important, I think, to make make it clear

770
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 7: that there is this whole dichotomy of like bad trip,

771
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:09,720
Speaker 7: good trip is kind of nonsense. Like essentially any report

772
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 7: you look at, any any serious study, that people are

773
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:16,320
Speaker 7: going to have a mix. They're going to have challenging

774
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 7: moments and they're going to have rewarding moments. And that

775
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 7: is part of shaking up the snow glow, is that

776
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 7: it's going to put things in a new context. It

777
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 7: may put your fear in a new context, but it

778
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 7: also may put some of the things you hold very

779
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:31,399
Speaker 7: dear in a new context and force you to reanalyze them.

780
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,879
Speaker 1: I think, at it at its most powerful, one of

781
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 1: the one of the analogs anecdotally for this kind of experience,

782
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 1: at least the more positive end of it, is the

783
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 1: revelation that many astronauts or cosmonauts report when they see

784
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:52,319
Speaker 1: the planet by itself for the first time and they

785
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 1: return back to Earth hopefully safely, and they're you know,

786
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 1: nothing has physiologically changed in their brain, right, nothing is

787
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 1: nothing other than the clearly dramatic experience of having to

788
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: exist in space. Nothing other than has changed them. They

789
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:15,879
Speaker 1: literally just saw something and they had this moment that

790
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 1: psychologically sent them to a different place, and that's where

791
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 1: they've stayed. And so when we see people having, you know,

792
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 1: tremendously powerful whether for the good or the ill, experiences

793
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,800
Speaker 1: on hallucinogens, we have to understand that even if the

794
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:36,839
Speaker 1: brain cells don't stay, and even if memory does consistently

795
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 1: erode and shift every time you're not looking directly at it,

796
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 1: that there is a value to that. And I have

797
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: to wonder, you know, when did the needle begin to

798
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 1: swing away from you know, this stuff being forbidden into

799
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 1: this stuff being I wouldn't say accepted, because numbers of

800
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 1: usage statistics are still really low, but I would say

801
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,359
Speaker 1: it's increasingly going to the mainstream. Especially you know, we've

802
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:08,399
Speaker 1: got a lot of Silicon Valley elites who are very

803
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 1: much on board with hallucinogen. It's not just a burning man, right,

804
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:17,800
Speaker 1: And I think we see these people as successful individuals

805
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 1: in these are modern days. So now there seems to

806
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 1: be this logical I don't know, I'm tracing it too

807
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:27,759
Speaker 1: Silicon Valley, but that's very cocktail napkin math.

808
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 4: You know.

809
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 1: Now there seems to be the psychological association that says

810
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: one can be successful and use psychedelics.

811
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 6: We think about this like, what if you combined use

812
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 6: of psilocybin with a therapist who is very versed in that.

813
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 6: In the same way you might have a shaman or

814
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:49,879
Speaker 6: somebody in a ritualistic experience guiding you, you know, through

815
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:52,439
Speaker 6: this experience. What if you could combine and we haven't

816
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,360
Speaker 6: even talked about microdosing, the idea of taking small amounts

817
00:46:55,640 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 6: of hallucinogens that can have less of a lucinogenic effect

818
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 6: and more of just a changing your base.

819
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:04,240
Speaker 5: Level kind of effect.

820
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:08,279
Speaker 6: But I love the potential for pushing this into the

821
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 6: mainstream even more, you know, like going to a therapist

822
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 6: who is very well versed in hallucinogenic experiences and can

823
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:17,879
Speaker 6: you can dose and then have your session where they

824
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 6: may be in the same as a guided meditation or

825
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 6: a dream you know, reversion or whatever whatever what have you.

826
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 5: You know, I think there's a lot of potential for

827
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:25,839
Speaker 5: that we haven't seen yet.

828
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

829
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 7: No, there's a lot of that going on in the underground,

830
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:32,319
Speaker 7: you know, you know, due to the legality that's that's

831
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 7: where it is. Michael Pollan talks about this in his

832
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 7: book A little Bit, where actually shops around for the

833
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:39,759
Speaker 7: right people to go to to have this experience because

834
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 7: he wants an experience on par with the sort of

835
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 7: the clinical therapeutic experiences that are taking place in these studies.

836
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 7: And you know, he finds some people that look maybe

837
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 7: seemed a little shifty, but then found some people that

838
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 7: seemed that seemed like they would be very promising and

839
00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 7: had a profound experience. But yeah, I would I would

840
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 7: love to see that that sort of thing coming. I mean,

841
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 7: it's coming back into the world, but coming into Western

842
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 7: civilization really for the first time.

843
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:10,919
Speaker 2: Well, and you may be in luck, Robert, because there's

844
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 2: this guy named Christian Augermeyer I believe is anger Meyer. Yeah,

845
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 2: he is a very wealthy individual, and he's got some

846
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:22,359
Speaker 2: very powerful friends who are also extremely wealthy.

847
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 7: And I always trust people like that.

848
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 2: Well, he he has means right, and he has an

849
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 2: idea because he had a personal experience with psychedelics that

850
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:37,480
Speaker 2: he says, quote was the single most meaningful thing I've

851
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 2: ever done or experienced in my life. Nothing has ever

852
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,359
Speaker 2: come close to it. He wants to or at least

853
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 2: he's expressed that he wants to commercialize in some way

854
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 2: or at least mainstream psychedelics and in particular psilocybin in

855
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 2: some way. Maybe like you're talking about maybe just more

856
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,879
Speaker 2: of products. Who knows, but it looks as though he's

857
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,840
Speaker 2: on the route to make those things happen, as the

858
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 2: legality route.

859
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 5: Now, one of we said this, it was just made

860
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 5: legal in Colorado. It was decriminalized, right, decriminalized. Are you

861
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 5: sure it was recreationally passed somewhere?

862
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 2: Okay, I know it's decriminalized in in Colorado. It's I

863
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 2: think Oakland, California, like the single place of Oakland, California.

864
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 7: They are still I mean there there are some very

865
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 7: strict laws. Yeah, we're still placed all over the country.

866
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 7: I mean even when you get down to the plant itself,

867
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 7: I mean plants themselves been in this case, the fungus itself.

868
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:41,280
Speaker 7: The spores are particularly highly illegal in California and in Georgia.

869
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 7: We're recording this.

870
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: Because they're easy to transport too, right, So it's not

871
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:51,280
Speaker 1: like you're hauling around a huge marijuana plant. It's much easier.

872
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 7: Yes, But not to make the most obvious, like hippie

873
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 7: statement ever, but just how ridiculous is it that that

874
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 7: certain plants are out by the scented apes that have

875
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 7: destroyed most of the planet.

876
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 3: It's true, it's true they use.

877
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:09,399
Speaker 2: Them to gain their prominence over their.

878
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 1: Planet, and perhaps making them illegal is actually preventing them

879
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 1: from being a victim of this great extinction in which

880
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 1: we live. I'm spitballing there now in Colorado just in

881
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:25,839
Speaker 1: case anybody's outside of Denver and thinking.

882
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:29,279
Speaker 3: Oh great, we do have to We do have to.

883
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:29,879
Speaker 3: Let you know.

884
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:36,799
Speaker 1: Mushrooms of this sort are decriminalized in Denver, right, They're

885
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 1: still illegal in Colorado, and they're still illegal in Denver.

886
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 2: And they're still legal in the United States.

887
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 7: If you are listening to this podcast, chances are you're

888
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 7: somewhere where mushrooms where psilocybin mushrooms are quite illegal.

889
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:54,840
Speaker 1: If you're somewhere where they're legal, you know, let us know.

890
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:55,839
Speaker 3: What are you doing this week?

891
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 4: Do you want to do?

892
00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 3: You want to hang out?

893
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 1: Speaking of hanging out out, Robert, thank you so much

894
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 1: for taking this journey with us today. A lot of

895
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,279
Speaker 1: our listeners right now are going but you didn't get

896
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:13,399
Speaker 1: to this, You didn't get to this. Wait, what else

897
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 1: is there? We have some good news because, as as

898
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 1: the co host of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, you

899
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 1: and you and Joe McCormick, who appeared earlier in an

900
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 1: episode of Stuff that I want you to know, have

901
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 1: done a deep dive into psychedelics. Where can people find

902
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:34,400
Speaker 1: this five part series?

903
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 7: So we did. Yeah, the five part series on psychedelics.

904
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 7: You can find it's stuff to Blow your Mind dot

905
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:40,880
Speaker 7: com or just wherever you get your podcasts. You just

906
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 7: look up stuff to Blow your mind and there it is.

907
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 7: I do have to say, you know, even though we

908
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,279
Speaker 7: took a deep dive, you know, we were not able

909
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:49,879
Speaker 7: to explore everything either it is you could, you could

910
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 7: do an entire series on psychedelics, on even particular psychedelics,

911
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 7: and there's still again, so much that we don't know

912
00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 7: and are figuring out.

913
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 6: And it's a story that changes data to that, especially

914
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 6: now that the doors have been kind of blown open

915
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 6: with this renaissance, as you describe it, with this research,

916
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 6: the sky's kind of the limit, and it does feel

917
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:11,760
Speaker 6: like the tide is turning, if a little bit slowly,

918
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:13,399
Speaker 6: as things tend to do in the law.

919
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean right now, the research is very promising.

920
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:20,399
Speaker 7: Hopefully we'll see rescheduling in the future. I've heard that

921
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 7: there are some serious a serious possibility that MDMA will

922
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:28,320
Speaker 7: be rescheduled in the near future due to therapeutic advancements

923
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:30,799
Speaker 7: that are being made with it, and in terms of

924
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 7: the future with psychedelics. Yeah, I mean, there are, of

925
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:34,880
Speaker 7: course so many questions like who who controls it?

926
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 4: Then?

927
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 7: Is it Silicon Valley Bros. Is it the pharmaceutical industry?

928
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 7: Does it remain kind of an essential part of the underground.

929
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:48,280
Speaker 5: Of course it won't be that. I mean, someone's gonna

930
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 5: commodify it at someone, you know what I mean.

931
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 4: I don't know.

932
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:53,279
Speaker 6: I hate to be negative, but I will say I

933
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 6: was reading in one of these articles about some of

934
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 6: the studies. Another drug that has been associated with sort

935
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 6: of club culture, ketamine, is being used in very very

936
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 6: high level clinical trials for treating treatment resistant depression.

937
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:10,799
Speaker 3: Also very controlled.

938
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 6: A friend of mine in New York City is participating

939
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 6: and you get a drip of ketamine that is a

940
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:24,800
Speaker 6: very very you know, purposeful dose and you are monitored

941
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:29,360
Speaker 6: and he said, it's working like crazy. So it's interesting

942
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 6: to see some of these things we've associated with, you know,

943
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:35,719
Speaker 6: unfairly even maligned substances that are starting to be kind

944
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:37,080
Speaker 6: of like taking a little more seriously.

945
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 7: Well, I think it comes back to the idea of

946
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 7: change that like, these are substances that when used properly,

947
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 7: can induce positive change in individuals. And if they can

948
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 7: make those changes in individuals, then perhaps they can make

949
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 7: those changes in the culture as well. And then that's

950
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:55,759
Speaker 7: one of the reasons that people have to have such

951
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:57,320
Speaker 7: hope for. Then that's one of the reasons that the

952
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:01,760
Speaker 7: establishment was so fearful of them. And hopefully our future

953
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 7: will be defined more by hope than fear' that's what

954
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 7: I'm hoping for.

955
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:10,120
Speaker 3: Well said and well said.

956
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 1: And that's our classic episode for this evening. We can't

957
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 1: wait to hear your thoughts.

958
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 5: That's right, let us know what you think. You can reach.

959
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 6: You to the handle Conspiracy Stuff where we exist on

960
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 6: Facebook x and YouTube on Instagram and TikTok or Conspiracy

961
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 6: Stuff Show.

962
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:26,839
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963
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 2: three std WYTK. That's our voicemail system. You've got three minutes,

964
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:34,319
Speaker 2: give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if

965
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:36,399
Speaker 2: we can use your name and message on the air.

966
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:38,279
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967
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 2: that voicemail, why not instead send us a good old

968
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:41,920
Speaker 2: fashioned email.

969
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 1: We are the entities to read every single piece of

970
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:49,520
Speaker 1: correspondence we receive. Be aware yet not afraid. Sometimes the

971
00:54:49,600 --> 00:55:11,920
Speaker 1: Void writes back conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

972
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:14,160
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want you to Know is a production

973
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:18,799
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

974
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:21,720
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.