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Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Hey

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Speaker 1: wh'b smarties. Today we are joined by a guest that

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Speaker 1: has me absolutely geeked. I mean, someone that I grew

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Speaker 1: up watching on television, whose story has now been made

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Speaker 1: into an incredible scripted drama, who has led the most

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Speaker 1: interesting life, and I just can't wait to ask her

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Speaker 1: all of the questions I have. Today we are joined

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Speaker 1: by none other than Marcia Clark, prosecutor, author, television correspondent,

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Speaker 1: and television producer. She is perhaps best known for having

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Speaker 1: been the lead prosecutor in the O. J. Simpson murder case,

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Speaker 1: and during that case she was really thrust into what

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Speaker 1: has been called the hell of the trial. She was

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Speaker 1: made overnight in a way that was kind of terrifying,

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Speaker 1: and her experience on that trial was really a confluence

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Speaker 1: of media and tabloid drama and early disinformation in the

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Speaker 1: media and such incredible sexism, the craziest experiences of the

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Speaker 1: way that a woman could be picked apart a woman

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Speaker 1: in a position of power in an era that was

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Speaker 1: not great for women. No less, everything from her arguing

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Speaker 1: style to her hair, her wardrobe was picked apart. On television,

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Speaker 1: the La Times even described her as resembling Sigourney Weaver,

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Speaker 1: only more professional, and The New York Times retorted that

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Speaker 1: the transformation was not entirely seamless, like what this one

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Speaker 1: was prosecuting a murder trial. It seems so wildly inappropriate today,

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Speaker 1: but this is just a moment ago in our human history.

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Speaker 1: After the trial, Clark actually resigned from the District Attorney's office.

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Speaker 1: She was so disillusioned with justice system. And then she

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Speaker 1: and Teresa Carpenter wrote a book about the case called

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Speaker 1: Without a Doubt. Since the trial, Marsha Clark has made

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Speaker 1: numerous appearances on television. She's been a special correspondent for

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Speaker 1: Entertainment Tonight. She has provided coverage of high profile trials

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Speaker 1: and reported from even red carpets at the Emmys. She

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Speaker 1: is an incredibly multifaceted woman who has taken a lot

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Speaker 1: of frankly sexist pushback and turned it into an incredible career.

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Speaker 1: She's written several novels, even a series surrounding a prosecutor

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Speaker 1: in the lada's office called Rachel Knight, and now she

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Speaker 1: has a brand new podcast out called Informants Lawyer X.

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Speaker 1: It is a story you have to hear to believe

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Speaker 1: it because it's true. And I'm telling you from the

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Speaker 1: Hollywood world. If any of us had pitched this to

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Speaker 1: a studio, they would have said it was too fantastical.

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Speaker 1: But it's real life, and so for those of us

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Speaker 1: who are obsessed with justice, obsessed with true crime, this

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Speaker 1: is going to be your next favorite podcast. Informant's Lawyer

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Speaker 1: X reveals the story of Nicolagabo, a defense attorney who

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Speaker 1: represented key players in Australia's violent gang Wars, and as

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Speaker 1: she appeared to become one of the gang, she was

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Speaker 1: actually turning into a police informant, selling out the people

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Speaker 1: she was sworn to defend. It's a wild story and

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Speaker 1: I am so excited to ask Marcia how she discovered

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Speaker 1: Nicolagabo's story in the first place, and every single question

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Speaker 1: I wanted to ask her since the oj Simpson trial

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Speaker 1: was on TV. So let's get to it. Hi, Marcia,

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Speaker 1: how are you.

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Speaker 2: I'm good. It's so nice to be here.

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Speaker 1: It's so lovely to have you. Thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for taking the time. My mind is absolutely blown right now,

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Speaker 1: just thrilled that you're here.

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Speaker 2: I've thrilled to be here. Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: Really yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I you know, as a kid who went

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Speaker 1: to journalism school in LA.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, I have so many questions for you.

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Speaker 1: There is really there's so much to talk about. But

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Speaker 1: you know, anyone I get to sit across from has

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Speaker 1: a pretty incredible list of accomplishments, and yours I have

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Speaker 1: a million questions about. But I actually want to I

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Speaker 1: want to go back a bit to the beginning and

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Speaker 1: know if you could kind of retrace your steps. When

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Speaker 1: did you know that you wanted to be an attorney?

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Speaker 1: Was it a dream you had from the time that

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Speaker 1: you were a young girl, or or was it something

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Speaker 1: that sort of evolved, you know, through your young life

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Speaker 1: and led you to decide you wanted to be a

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Speaker 1: prosecutor in school? How did we get here?

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Speaker 2: No, it's funny for you. It reminds me of that

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Speaker 2: buzz light Year thing where flying is just a series

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Speaker 2: of fallings. Yeah, and that's what it kind of happ

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Speaker 2: and to me, it was all accidental. I started out

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Speaker 2: wanting to be an actress, not movies. I wanted to

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Speaker 2: do not Broadway even I wanted to do off Broadway,

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Speaker 2: you know, small theater stuff, and I really liked that.

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Speaker 2: And in my y, that's crazy. And in my first

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Speaker 2: year of undergrad I realized I was majoring in theater arts,

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Speaker 2: and I realized, that's a really dumb major because you're

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Speaker 2: either an actor or you're not, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: But you know, certainly having a degree is not going

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Speaker 2: to make your one. So I gave up on that thought, Okay,

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Speaker 2: I should get like something different, and I thought, oh,

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Speaker 2: political science seems like it encompasses a lot of the

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Speaker 2: stuff that might interesting to me. And then I really

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Speaker 2: got into that and I wanted to be I got

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Speaker 2: interested in international relations, particularly, you know, I wanted to

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Speaker 2: work for the State Department, but I wanted to be

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Speaker 2: in the field, you know. I wanted to work out,

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Speaker 2: not at a desk. And back then, the only thing

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Speaker 2: that girls were allowed to do was type, and they

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Speaker 2: asked me how fast I could type, and I did

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Speaker 2: not have any desire to tell them that I was

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Speaker 2: a fast typist, nor was I a fast So that

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Speaker 2: was that that dream went crashing down. And then it

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Speaker 2: was like, now what do I do?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I really didn't know, and it was just

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Speaker 2: a matter of sitting down and making a list of

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Speaker 2: the things I liked to do the things that I

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Speaker 2: thought I could do, and it seemed to add up

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Speaker 2: to law school, which really pissed me off because I

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Speaker 2: hated school. Hated it, hats all forms of school. I

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Speaker 2: really liked studying on my own. Okay, you know, I

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Speaker 2: want to give me the book, I'll go away, I'll

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Speaker 2: figure it out. But I really don't want to sit

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Speaker 2: in class. So having to go back to school was

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Speaker 2: not my favorite thing to do. I went back to

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Speaker 2: law school with a very bad attitude. But I really

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Speaker 2: figured in the first like two months of law school.

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Speaker 2: I realized it was going to be criminal law. That

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Speaker 2: was the only thing I was going to practice, and

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Speaker 2: it was the I never looked back, and I never

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Speaker 2: regretted it because it really was where I wanted to be.

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Speaker 2: So it kind of happened like that. And I have

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Speaker 2: to tell you it was such an accidental thing that

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Speaker 2: I had actually forgotten about. The LSATs are the admissions,

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Speaker 2: you know, tests you have to take to get into

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Speaker 2: law school. Yeah, and I had forgotten that it was

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Speaker 2: due the following morning, and I went out and partied

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Speaker 2: the night before. Oh my god, it was really not good.

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Speaker 2: I showed up more than slightly hungover for the LSAT.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, you have to fill in those

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Speaker 2: little bubbles back in the day, and they were very blurry.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what score I got. It was good

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Speaker 2: enough to get into law school. That was fine with me,

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Speaker 2: so you know what I mean. It wasn't like some

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Speaker 2: big career path. It just kind of happened and happened

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Speaker 2: and happened, and then, yeah.

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Speaker 1: What was it about criminal law that stood out to

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Speaker 1: you so quickly?

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Speaker 2: I think that started when I was like really really little,

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Speaker 2: I mean six years old, kind of little, because I

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Speaker 2: was always looking for the mystery, and I was always

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Speaker 2: looking to solve the mystery, make it up and then

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Speaker 2: solve it, which is sure, yeah, exactly. So there was

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Speaker 2: this house where we were living, at the end of

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Speaker 2: the street that looked kind of that was kind of

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Speaker 2: abandon well, it was abandoned actually, and so I decided,

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Speaker 2: of course that a big murder had happened there. And

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Speaker 2: I saw, you know, spots on the sidewalk and those

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Speaker 2: became blood drops, and for some reason I persuaded all

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Speaker 2: the kids on the block that this was really happening

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Speaker 2: and we were going to crack this case wide open. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So It started very very young. I was always fascinated

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Speaker 2: with crime, and so it's not really a surprise that

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Speaker 2: in law school I said criminal laws had to be.

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Speaker 1: Right well, and not really a surprise that you fast

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Speaker 1: forward to today and you know you're writing these incredible mysteries.

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Speaker 1: It all really makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it really does now.

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Speaker 1: So many of us obviously came to know you as

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Speaker 1: a household name during the oj Simpson trial. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: lost on me as a tiny little activist in my

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Speaker 1: whole life. I remember saying to my parents, I do

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Speaker 1: not like the way they're talking about this lady on TV.

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Speaker 1: You know, it really irked me as a kid that

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Speaker 1: I could see, even as a child not understanding the

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Speaker 1: complexities of the world in patriarchy and society and systems

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Speaker 1: and all the things that I understand now. I could

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Speaker 1: see the way you were vilified. You know, this hyper intelligent,

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Speaker 1: committed prosecutor doing this work, who was as enraged as

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Speaker 1: the rest of us that this trial was going the

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Speaker 1: way that it was. And you know, there'd be tabloids

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Speaker 1: at the grocery store and people were calling you a bitch,

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Speaker 1: and it was like, it really pissed me off.

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Speaker 2: As a kid.

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Speaker 1: What what was that experience like for you at the time,

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Speaker 1: Because it seemed from the outside that because of who

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Speaker 1: OJ was and how public he and Nicole Brown Simpson's

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Speaker 1: life had been, and everyone knew about, you know, the

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Speaker 1: cops being called in, the abuse and the police reports

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Speaker 1: and the things, and yet everybody was pissed off at

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Speaker 1: you for going after the bad guy? Like what was

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Speaker 1: it surreal to you? Was it shocking? Was it traumatizing?

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Speaker 1: Was it infuriating? Maybe it was all of the things.

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Speaker 1: I feel like it was just such the beginning of

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Speaker 1: this era of all this stuff being on TV. Was

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Speaker 1: it surreal? As a lawyer?

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Speaker 2: That really was? It? Really really was so Before Simpson,

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Speaker 2: I had been a prosecutor for fourteen years defense attorney

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Speaker 2: before that, and had never felt particularly focused on as

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Speaker 2: a female. And even if there even if I initially was,

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Speaker 2: even if the detectives initially kind of looked like a girl, really,

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Speaker 2: by the time I got into doing the job and

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Speaker 2: working with them and going out and talking to witnesses,

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Speaker 2: they got over it really fast and it didn't matter anymore.

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Speaker 2: Same thing with judges and other defense attorneys suggest it

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Speaker 2: became a matter of not no big deal, right, and

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Speaker 2: so I had stopped worrying about it. If ever I

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Speaker 2: did really worry about it, I don't think I really did.

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Speaker 2: I thought I just do the job, you know, get

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Speaker 2: past whatever. Then there were sexist jokes and all the

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Speaker 2: rest of it, whatever la la lah, and I do

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Speaker 2: the job, you know, because everybody could get over it.

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Speaker 2: It didn't stick in my mind at the time, and

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Speaker 2: by the time the Simpson case happened, it had been

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Speaker 2: many years of nobody giving me a hard time about

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Speaker 2: being female, or being impassioned, or being a prosecutor any

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Speaker 2: of that stuff. And at that time, as of that time,

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Speaker 2: having a high profile case meant what was high profile

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Speaker 2: was maybe the press would spell your name right and

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Speaker 2: only in print and certainly not on television, and maybe

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Speaker 2: they wouldn't mention you at all. You're just the prosecution.

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Speaker 2: So that was high profile. And that's all I had

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Speaker 2: ever had to deal with, and I had dealt with

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Speaker 2: other pride h profile cases. This was not my first.

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Speaker 2: But then when the Simpson case hit, there was a

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Speaker 2: sudden it was like being in this vortex. Suddenly there

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Speaker 2: was media coverage that was twenty four to seven. Suddenly

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Speaker 2: there were these cable networks and outlets that were all

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Speaker 2: over the country, not just in one tiny pocket here

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Speaker 2: and there, that were nationwide, and they needed content and

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Speaker 2: they could afford to fill the air waves constantly, And

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Speaker 2: so now the spotlight became huge, which it never had

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Speaker 2: been before. So that was shocking. And the degree to

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Speaker 2: which people got invested in, got involved and had opinions

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Speaker 2: and wanted to be heard was unprecedented. That I would

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Speaker 2: become a focus of interest at all, That I would

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Speaker 2: be the focus of any kind of attention was a

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Speaker 2: brand new thing and not a welcome thing, and not

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Speaker 2: a welcome thing in so many ways. Number One, I

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Speaker 2: never wanted to be the focus of attention like that

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Speaker 2: number or as me, you know, I mean, even when

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Speaker 2: I wanted to be an actress, I didn't want to

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Speaker 2: be focused on as me. I wanted to be a character.

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Speaker 2: So you know what I mean, there's that, Yeah, you would,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean exactly. So this was horrifying.

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Speaker 2: But what was more horrifying to me was the way

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Speaker 2: in which I could see justice being subverted. All of

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Speaker 2: the proper considerations about truth, about evidence, about guilt and

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Speaker 2: innocence went out the window. In favor of gossip and

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Speaker 2: sensationalism and clickbait. Although we didn't know the word clickbait,

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Speaker 2: then it was that. And so it was really depressing

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Speaker 2: and very upsetting to see the important values in our

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Speaker 2: criminal justice system being buried under a mile of slime

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Speaker 2: and false reporting, deliberately false at times and just recklessly

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Speaker 2: false at other times. And then the court itself, the

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Speaker 2: judge himself, who became obsessed with celebrity and his own

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Speaker 2: spotlight and all of that was to the detriment of

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Speaker 2: justice and the proper legal administration. So it was really

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Speaker 2: it was a very depressing, very upsetting experience and very surreal.

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Speaker 2: And so what I had to do is early early on,

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Speaker 2: not pay attention. I just had to. Really, what I

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Speaker 2: had to do is in court, that's what matters, whoever's

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Speaker 2: talking about, whatever they're talking about. At one point I

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Speaker 2: heard rush Limbaugh was talking about my skirts. I mean, really,

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Speaker 2: how crazy does this get? So enough of that, and

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Speaker 2: so I turned off the TV, yep, and just focused

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Speaker 2: on what was going on.

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Speaker 1: And now for our sponsors, it's such an odd thing

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Speaker 1: in my own relative experience with this to see what

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Speaker 1: it's like, particularly before the advent of social media where

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Speaker 1: you could have your own voice, where the media, for

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Speaker 1: as you said, clickbait, would essentially cast you as a

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Speaker 1: character in a in a version of a tabloid soap

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Speaker 1: opera because it helped them sell papers. Whether it was

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Speaker 1: anything real about your life or not, it it was.

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Speaker 1: It was so disconcerting and as a person who's pretty

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Speaker 1: obsessed with justice myself, drove me nuts because it feels

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Speaker 1: so unjust. And I think that's what I picked up

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Speaker 1: on as a kid. You know, watching this trial, what

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Speaker 1: a crazy thing to you know, to know your name,

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Speaker 1: to know lance Edo's name, like what who knows judges' names?

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Speaker 1: And this trial, you know, blew up into this space

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Speaker 1: that it was everywhere all the time, you know, twenty

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Speaker 1: four hours. It was like the Super Bowl never ended

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Speaker 1: in a way. That much coverage. You know, when you

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Speaker 1: when you talk about the reporting, and you know, you

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Speaker 1: said something really interesting a moment ago, you said, sometimes

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Speaker 1: deliberately reporting what did you know to be false? That

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Speaker 1: was moving at such a torrent that you couldn't get

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Speaker 1: ahead of it and make it stop.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there were so many things. Sophia has so

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Speaker 2: many things that I can't even recount one in particular.

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Speaker 2: But I would have arguments with Johnny on the side,

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Speaker 2: and we always got along, you know, and there was

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Speaker 2: we did not have acrimoni personally ever, But I would

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Speaker 2: get annoyed because he would float these nonsensical stories about

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Speaker 2: this witness that witness. There weren't witnesses, and he knew it,

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Speaker 2: but he would just throw it out there because he

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Speaker 2: knew the press would pick it up and run with

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Speaker 2: it as though, oh new Lee knew this, knew that,

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Speaker 2: And it was can I say this? Okay? You know? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: And it was. And I said, Johnny, you know it's good.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna blow this up tomorrow. He said, well, you

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Speaker 2: know whatever. And of course it's not up to him

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Speaker 2: to worry about that. That's not his job. But it

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Speaker 2: is the press's job. He should be a journalist's job

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Speaker 2: to look at, you know, something that comes out. I

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Speaker 2: would watch it a reporter walk into the men's room

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Speaker 2: with someone from the defense team and then come out

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Speaker 2: and file a story. What do you think you had

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Speaker 2: one side of something that you've not verified, you've never

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Speaker 2: tried to corroborate. You don't care where it came from.

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Speaker 2: You guys were standing at the urinal together, and he

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Speaker 2: told you a tale, and now you're putting it out

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Speaker 2: there as though this is gospel truth. And that's completely

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Speaker 2: spinning public opinion and giving people a lie, giving people

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Speaker 2: garbage because you haven't bothered to corroborate or verify anything

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Speaker 2: you've done. So it would happen over and over and

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Speaker 2: over again. And Johnny was right, no one cared because

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Speaker 2: the very next lie would happen the next day and

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Speaker 2: that would wipe it out. And you know, it looks

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Speaker 2: like our politics today.

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Speaker 1: I was going to say, it's not dissimilar to what's

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Speaker 1: been happening in Ohio.

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Speaker 2: That's right, that's right.

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Speaker 1: It's so hard to watch people who will lie for gain,

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Speaker 1: even if it causes harm. And I would imagine you

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Speaker 1: know that it was incredibly difficult to know what the

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Speaker 1: victim had been through, you know, how abused she'd been,

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Speaker 1: how many incidents of violence there were. Obviously you saw

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Speaker 1: more than any of the rest of us, what the

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Speaker 1: crime scene really looked like, all of these things that

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Speaker 1: I just I know the way they've stuck with me,

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Speaker 1: and I know I wasn't nearly as close to it

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Speaker 1: as you, and so I guess I wonder as misrepresented

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Speaker 1: as so much was in the world. Then were you

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Speaker 1: nervous when you heard that FX was going to make

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Speaker 1: the people versus O. J. Simpson?

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Speaker 2: It was miserable, it was. It was miserable, miserable when

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Speaker 2: I heard they were going to do it.

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Speaker 1: Did that shift at all because you got to sit

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Speaker 1: down with Sarah Paulson or were you just worried the

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Speaker 1: whole time until you got to see it?

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Speaker 2: Well? I couldn't. The actors were not allowed to meet

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Speaker 2: the real people they portrayed throughout the shooting. No, they

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Speaker 2: never did. They weren't allowed to. So yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 2: when I first heard it that they were going to

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Speaker 2: do this limited series, I thought, first of all, oh God, no,

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Speaker 2: please no, And then I thought, well, no harm, no foul,

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Speaker 2: No one's going to care, No one's going to watch this.

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Speaker 2: We all know the story. It's old news, you know.

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Speaker 2: And then people were telling me it's not old news,

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Speaker 2: and we think it's going to be big, And then

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Speaker 2: I was miserable again. And then I heard Sarah Paulson

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Speaker 2: was going to play me, and then I thought, well,

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Speaker 2: if this awful thing has to happen, at least I

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Speaker 2: have a genius portraying me. At least I have this

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Speaker 2: amazing actress portraying me, so that was like, that was

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Speaker 2: some comfort. But I didn't get to see her or

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Speaker 2: speak to her until they were done shooting. And then,

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Speaker 2: of course it was wonderful. We had the best time.

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Speaker 2: We closed the restaurant down, got pretty drunk, had a

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Speaker 2: great time. We still exchanged texts. I love her dearly.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I'm so glad. How did you feel about it

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Speaker 1: when you saw it? Or did you not watch it?

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Speaker 2: Of course I had to watch it. Okay, could you

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Speaker 2: not watch it?

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to assume.

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Speaker 2: I thought it was great, you know. And people are

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Speaker 2: always asking me how how accurate it was, and was

360
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Speaker 2: this that and the other? And they always tell them, Look,

361
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Speaker 2: they can't be accurate. They I mean, they can be,

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Speaker 2: and they were to the extent that they could be.

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Speaker 2: They told the essential truth of the core of the story.

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Speaker 2: The ways in which racial justice, the issue of racial justice,

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Speaker 2: was manipulated in service of the acquittal of a man

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Speaker 2: who did not deserve it, The way in which the

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Speaker 2: wheels of justice were ground to a halt with all

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Speaker 2: kinds of tactics that should not be allowed. The ways

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Speaker 2: in which things went wrong should not have gone wrong,

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Speaker 2: leading to the verdict that we got, which we might

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Speaker 2: have gotten anyway. And that's an important thing to think

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Speaker 2: about in terms of our social history, written large in

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Speaker 2: terms of the context of that case, following so closely

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Speaker 2: after Rodney King and then the very most violent riots

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Speaker 2: of that century that occurred in the wake of the

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Speaker 2: Rodney King case so and trial. So, I mean, there

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00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,160
Speaker 2: were so many issues that they did a really nice

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Speaker 2: job of incorporating there. To say that any limited series

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00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,520
Speaker 2: could be completely accurate when you're talking about something that

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Speaker 2: was covered endlessly for a year twenty four to seven

381
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Speaker 2: is impossible, and you wouldn't even want to. So Yes,

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Speaker 2: in essence, I think they got a lot of it right.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was really quite beautiful, and I was

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Speaker 1: so impressed with Sarah Paulson, and I loved whether it

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Speaker 1: felt incredibly accurate or not to you as a viewer.

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Speaker 1: I appreciated really being able to see what you as

387
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Speaker 1: a woman, were put through that a man never would

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Speaker 1: have been put through. To have your hair and your

389
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Speaker 1: clothes and your demeanor and your speech and your custody battle,

390
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:53,320
Speaker 1: your personal life all picked apart. I thought we were

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Speaker 1: able to as an audience see the injustice that was

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Speaker 1: done to you within this world that you mentioned. This

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Speaker 1: injustice was done to these victims because such a terrible

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Speaker 1: injustice had been done to someone else and people were

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Speaker 1: afraid to repeat it. It felt like a miscarriage on

396
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Speaker 1: a miscarriage, on a miscarriage of what the law should be,

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Speaker 1: you know, from personal to societal. And I thought that

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Speaker 1: that was a pretty incredible thing for them to have

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Speaker 1: been able to do on film. Did it allow you

400
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Speaker 1: to revisit the intense scrutiny that you experienced. Was it

401
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Speaker 1: cathartic in a way to see it told honestly to

402
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Speaker 1: a point or was it kind of painful all over again?

403
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Speaker 1: Or maybe it's both.

404
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 2: I think it is kind of both. It was cathartic

405
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Speaker 2: in the sense that Sarah captured the feeling of what

406
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Speaker 2: it was like to be in the focus of that

407
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 2: kind of attention. She captured it beautifully, and so that

408
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 2: was great. There's a wonderfulness about a feeling understood, and

409
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,680
Speaker 2: she really did. Yeah, so that was good. It was

410
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Speaker 2: also very painful. Justice matters to me, the truth matters

411
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Speaker 2: to me a lot, and I saw it being I

412
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Speaker 2: saw it being shredded every day when I went to court,

413
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Speaker 2: and so I diving into that cesspool of what was really,

414
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Speaker 2: to me, just a complete subversion of all the values

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Speaker 2: that we hold so dear in a democracy where that

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Speaker 2: is founded on a system of justice that at least

417
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Speaker 2: strives to be fair, at least strives to be the

418
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 2: scales of justice. You know, she's blind and you're supposed

419
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Speaker 2: to be coming in to focus on the evidence, and

420
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Speaker 2: to focus on the truth, and to apply the law

421
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Speaker 2: to the evidence. This is what we're supposed to do.

422
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 2: None of that happened, and I don't think it was

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Speaker 2: allowed to happen for so many reasons. So that was

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Speaker 2: a very painful thing. And looking back watching the series

425
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 2: brought home that painful experience as well, so you know,

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Speaker 2: I mean, so it was both. It was both.

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Speaker 1: Well, I remember the feeling I had watching it, going, God,

428
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Speaker 1: I wonder if she's at home, going see I'm not crazy.

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Speaker 1: It was this bad, you know, And not that that

430
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,440
Speaker 1: fixes it, but at least you don't necessarily feel so alone.

431
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 1: I imagine at the time when it was happening, again,

432
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Speaker 1: there was no social media. You couldn't have a voice,

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Speaker 1: you couldn't get ahead of anything. You couldn't tell your

434
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 1: own story. It was told for you in the pages

435
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 1: you know of all these newspapers and tabloids all around

436
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: the country. And who did you have in your corner?

437
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: Like did you have a best friend who you called

438
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: every night to flip out about the day or was

439
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 1: the case so intense that you were sort of underground

440
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,680
Speaker 1: in your office for months and had to do it afterwards?

441
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 2: Like what was your life life?

442
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 1: Not just as Marcia Clerk the prosecutor, but as Marcia

443
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 1: as a woman who was trying to deal with all

444
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 1: of this, Like who did you turn to?

445
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 2: I did have best friends to talk to, and I

446
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,360
Speaker 2: did talk to them every night, and I also had

447
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 2: my team and Chris, you know what I mean. And

448
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 2: so yes, I mean there were plenty of people to

449
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 2: talk to and vent to. And I'm sure they got

450
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 2: really sick of me. So I hope that I apologize

451
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 2: to them enough to say, I know you've heard this before,

452
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 2: but I can't believe what you know, you know what

453
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 2: I mean? Fill in the blank. Sure, And so yes,

454
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,439
Speaker 2: there were people to talk to, and that was, of course,

455
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 2: as you know, very helpful. They have shoulders to lean on,

456
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 2: to wine to and to just you know, vent to constantly,

457
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 2: because it was a level of you're not in control

458
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 2: in a courtroom. I mean, I think anyone who says

459
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 2: that a prosecutor is controlling the proceedings is not a

460
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 2: lawyer or a very bad one because you are not

461
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 2: in control. Somebody once likened it to you know, oh,

462
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 2: you're the director of your film. No, you're not. The

463
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,479
Speaker 2: judge is. You don't get to say cut. The judge does. So,

464
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 2: you know, you go in and you do your very

465
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 2: best to try and get the evidence to the jury

466
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 2: and to try and you know, unbury the truth for

467
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 2: the for the jury so they can see what really

468
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 2: happened and to see the truth in the witness's testimony.

469
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 2: But when when every roadblock keeps getting thrown in your way,

470
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 2: and every turn, everywhere you turn, there's another rock put

471
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 2: in front of the doorway that stops you from getting

472
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 2: to the jury from saying here, it is here, it

473
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 2: is here, this is what this means, this is why

474
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 2: we do this, this is what happened. But every time

475
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 2: you turn, it's like a door closes, that kind of thing,

476
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 2: or just big stumbling blocks that you're constantly trying to

477
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 2: crawl over. That kind of frustration was a daily occurrence,

478
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 2: and it was that you have to vent before you

479
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,879
Speaker 2: go crazy. So it was it was that kind that

480
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 2: was the experience that ultimately, I think by the end

481
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,439
Speaker 2: of the trial, I thought, I can't, I can't do

482
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 2: this anymore. Everything I thought and held dear about being

483
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 2: a lawyer, about being a prosecutor or a defense attorney,

484
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 2: all of those values kind of went got buried and

485
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 2: got tainted, got shredded. I didn't believe in the justice

486
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,199
Speaker 2: system anymore. I walked away thinking I just can't, I can't,

487
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 2: I'm done, And then I got I wound up finding

488
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 2: that there were other things I could do, and wound

489
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 2: up writing. But then I wound up with writing fiction.

490
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,199
Speaker 2: At first, the publishers Weekly when I put out my

491
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 2: first work of criminal crime fiction said, Clark turns to

492
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 2: fiction to control the outcome. Very true. You're like, obviously,

493
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 2: obviously right. How great is that? But then I discovered

494
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 2: that there was a beauty in writing about true crime.

495
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 2: And that's fairly recent, but I mean, I've always been

496
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 2: addicted to true and I do it still. I'm an

497
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 2: appellate lawyer. I do court appointed cases for the indigen

498
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 2: So I'm still practicing criminal law, and I get I

499
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 2: have all these true crime cases. But my agent said,

500
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 2: why don't you write a true crime book. Why don't

501
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 2: you get into another case. I said, but I have

502
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 2: so many already. Yeah, And then I got into but

503
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 2: you know, maybe that's a cool thing. And then I

504
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 2: fell on the story of Lawyer X and that was amazing,

505
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 2: And that was one of these true stories that if

506
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,360
Speaker 2: it weren't true, you wouldn't believe a word of it,

507
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 2: Like if I told you this as fiction, you'd say,

508
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 2: too far fetched. A high powered criminal lawyer, she was

509
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 2: at the top of her game, representing the most notorious

510
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 2: gangsters in Australia in the midst of the Gangland Wars,

511
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 2: which was around the late nineties, early aughts into twenty

512
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 2: ten eleven, and bodies were literally dropping in Melbourne. And

513
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 2: this was a very beautiful city, seaside Port, beauty Port

514
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 2: city that was gorgeous, known for its culture, really beautiful place.

515
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 2: And suddenly this very lovely place to live has blood

516
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 2: flowing in the streets because of these gangsters and the

517
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 2: drug wars. And Nicola Gabbo was standing at the forefront

518
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 2: of it all as the premiere defense attorney for all

519
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 2: of the biggest of the big the most notorious of notorious,

520
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 2: and it turns out that she becomes an informant for

521
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 2: the police. And the notion that a defense attorney, especially

522
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 2: a celebrated one like that, becomes the most prized informant

523
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 2: for the detectives is something that Hollywood pudnta made it up.

524
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's crazy, it feels unheard of and

525
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: now a word from our sponsors that I really enjoy

526
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: and I think you will too. How did you learn

527
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 1: about her story? And did she survive? I mean, it

528
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: feels like that's the number one person that a cartel

529
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: of drug runners is going to try to put out

530
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: a hit on. Like it does feel so far fetched

531
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: for a movie, but this is real life, Like how

532
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 1: did you hear about her? And then what happened?

533
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 2: Is she okay? Well? Is she okay? Is a really

534
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 2: good question. She's in hiding right now. I tried to

535
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 2: reach out to her. This was a nine part series

536
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 2: for Wondery and I think it's exclusive to Wondery Plus

537
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 2: right now. It's part of the Exhibit cea campaign for

538
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 2: True crime shows podcasts at Wondery and it's the first

539
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 2: one out of the gate. I heard about it in Hollywood,

540
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 2: and at that time all I knew was that there

541
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 2: was some magazine article that I since discovered that actually

542
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 2: there was a book written by these journalists. Anthony Dowsley

543
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 2: was the journalist in Australia who happened upon this story

544
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 2: by hanging out in a cop bar one night and

545
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 2: here's people gossiping and talking, and the detectives are talking

546
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 2: and gossiping. This name keeps popping out, Nicolagabo, and he says,

547
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 2: what is the story here? Why are these detectives talking

548
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 2: about about this lawyer? This is not common And as

549
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 2: he started to unravel the story, he came upon this

550
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,719
Speaker 2: incredible tale that has to be the cornerstone of his career.

551
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 2: And when he published, they refused to allow him to

552
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 2: use her name. So she was Lawyer X. And that's

553
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 2: the show that we got. That's the podcast that's just

554
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 2: out now on Wondering on Wondery Plus and informants Lawyer

555
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 2: X and so she is her story. I talked to

556
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 2: Anthony Dowsley, who was the one who investigated it, along

557
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 2: with journalist Patrick Carlyon, also a detective who became involved

558
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 2: with Nicolagabo. Paul Dale, and also another criminal defense lawyer,

559
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 2: Zara guard Wilson, who was also knew her and knew

560
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 2: of Nicolagabo and what she was doing. The story has

561
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 2: twists and turns. It is the most incredible thing. First

562
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 2: when I stumbled on it, I thought, Okay, that's just weird,

563
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 2: and then I realized there's a whole thing that happens

564
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 2: with hers. There are murders, a double homicide involved. It's

565
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 2: got everything. It's just incredible.

566
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: Well and I imagine, as both a prosecut and an author,

567
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 1: you're like, this is a gold mine of drama and

568
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 1: tension and excitement, and it's true.

569
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's true. Unimaginable, Yeah it is. It was everything.

570
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 2: And what was incredible was as we're writing episode after episode,

571
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 2: I'm recording it and going, oh my god, you're getting

572
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 2: I mean one thing, no way, and you know something.

573
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 2: I mean, I've seen so much, having handled thousands and

574
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 2: thousands of cases, it's pretty hard to shock me, honestly,

575
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 2: and this shocked me over and over again, and I

576
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 2: really did keep going no way.

577
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 1: So from that, from that place, you know, that amount

578
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: of expertise. You say, you've seen it all, so it's

579
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: hard to shock. You can you give the rest of

580
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 1: us who don't know the ins and outs of your

581
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 1: world a little bit of an overview of what the

582
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 1: risks are that criminal informants face and a little information

583
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 1: on what criteria is necess to even become an informant,

584
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: because obviously it's very rare for a defense attorney to

585
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: flip state's evidence on his or her clients. So like that,

586
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 1: obviously we know is the ground zero for informants lawyer X,

587
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 1: But what does it mean to be an informant in

588
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: the first place?

589
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 2: So usually, and when I say usually, I mean always,

590
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 2: I've never heard of a defense attorney becoming an informant,

591
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 2: let alone an official registered informant for the police. Never.

592
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 2: This is a one off and it was a huge

593
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 2: story in Australia. We just get to find out about

594
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 2: it now and it's incredible. Usually, and when I say usually,

595
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 2: I mean always, informants are criminals. They're involved in some

596
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 2: kind of criminal enterprise, whether there it's a mafia situation,

597
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 2: whether it's just a drug ring or something, or it's gangs.

598
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 2: You know, it's somebody who's involved in the world, because

599
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 2: that's how they get the information, and that's the cops

600
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 2: get a hold of them because they get busted for whatever,

601
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 2: and then they get to make a deal and in turn,

602
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 2: in return for the deal that the cops give them

603
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 2: or the prosecutor gives them, they funnel information to them.

604
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 2: It is a very, very dangerous life. It's extremely dangerous

605
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 2: because you're always walking this tightrope that if the guys

606
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 2: that you're getting the information from, i e. Your gang,

607
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 2: your group, your drug ring, whatever it is, if they

608
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 2: find out you're snitching, you're dead, yes, or hurt very badly,

609
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 2: or your family is well your family right exactly. So

610
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 2: there's a lot of vulnerability there. And on the other hand,

611
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 2: if you don't deliver, you're going to go to prison.

612
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 2: So and the cops want you to deliver, the cops

613
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 2: are not going to make a deal with you, and

614
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 2: they're not going to carry through on that deal if

615
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 2: you don't give them what they want. So you're constantly

616
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:51,479
Speaker 2: balancing these different interests. Nicola Gaba was doing in big time.

617
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 2: She was actually playing both sides against the middle. She

618
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 2: was working for the cops against her clients, but she

619
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 2: was also getting information from the cops her clients. It

620
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 2: was one of the most amazing kind of power plays

621
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 2: I've ever seen, where she's kind of the puppet master

622
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,399
Speaker 2: of all time. But that's unusual. That's a very one

623
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:16,320
Speaker 2: off situation. Usually it's the criminal trying to serve both masters,

624
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 2: very hard to do, to do, and then the cops

625
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:21,919
Speaker 2: have to worry about how much they're getting what they're

626
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 2: getting from the inform and how much of it is true, right,

627
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:26,839
Speaker 2: because he has every reason to want to please them,

628
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 2: to get to make his deal and keep on the

629
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,479
Speaker 2: good side of them. And at the same time, lying

630
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 2: can help because it can shield people he wants to

631
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 2: shield or she wants to shield. On the criminal side

632
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 2: gets very complicated, but one thing that is never complicated

633
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 2: but always true is the constant threat of danger from

634
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 2: one side or another, prison or death.

635
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 1: Right. Well, and this is really interesting because you talk,

636
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 1: you know, across the country about the effects of celebrity

637
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 1: and press attention on criminal cases. Obviously so impactful when

638
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 1: we look back at oj trial, but even what you're

639
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 1: speaking about with this case, the Nicolagabo story, it became

640
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 1: a story because someone from the media heard about it.

641
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: And I'm really curious. You know, there's obviously a desire

642
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: to tell stories, and journalists want to inform their audience,

643
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 1: but sometimes informing an audience about a story like this

644
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,839
Speaker 1: could cost someone their life. How do you kind of

645
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 1: mitigate these effects, you know, celebrity press attention, social media

646
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 1: attention on criminal cases. Are there best practices or is

647
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 1: Pandora's box just open at this point?

648
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 2: You know, it's a really good question, Sophia. I think

649
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,720
Speaker 2: that journalists are kind of grappling with this constantly now

650
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 2: that we have social media and it's so easy to

651
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 2: publish a story without vetting it. It's so easy to

652
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 2: just get out there and send that tweet, post that

653
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 2: in whatever it is, a blog if you will, and

654
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 2: I don't even think that's a big deal, but substack

655
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 2: if you will, and people get it right away. And

656
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 2: so it does become their responsibility to be very careful

657
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:14,439
Speaker 2: about what they do, and a lot of them are.

658
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 2: A lot of them are. They're very cognizant of the

659
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 2: fact that there is integrity involved in here, and there's

660
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 2: personal safety concerns of everybody you're talking about. In case

661
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 2: of Nippy Nicolagabo, it was a particularly vexing problem for

662
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 2: Anthony Dowsley, the journalist, because it was known that if

663
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 2: you reveal who she is, her life is in danger.

664
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 2: Well yeah, right, her life is in incredible danger, and

665
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 2: so are the lives of her children, not to mention

666
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 2: the fact that the cops are going to be furious

667
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 2: because you're killing the golden goose. So there was a

668
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 2: lot of there's a lot of litigation that happened to

669
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 2: suppress this story for years. Anthony Dowsley had to fight

670
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 2: for five years to finally publish the story and then

671
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 2: fight for even longer than that to get her name out.

672
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,839
Speaker 2: And he had to balance those interests that you're talking about,

673
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 2: the safety interest and the threat of danger that was

674
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 2: so palpable, so real. The problem is too though, these

675
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 2: are also an important thing that the public needs to know

676
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,839
Speaker 2: that the system of justice is being undermined by this.

677
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 2: People will say, for sure, they'll say, oh, so what

678
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 2: you know, the criminal the legal rights of these criminals,

679
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 2: these drug lords is being trampled. Boo who it kills

680
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 2: me for them? You know, I don't care. I want

681
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 2: the police to get them, and she's helping them get them,

682
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 2: so yeah, for her, Well, yeah, but it's not so

683
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 2: clean and it's not so clear because if they can

684
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 2: trample these guys' rights, they can trample other rights as well.

685
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 2: It's because the slippery slope. What if it's your brother,

686
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 2: your friend, your cousin who got busted for one minor

687
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:53,959
Speaker 2: thing and the cop knows that he can just tap

688
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 2: a source that's completely unreliable. Because after all, we say

689
00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 2: that's okay, if you're going to bust crime, do whatever

690
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 2: you we have to set those guardrails there important. So

691
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 2: even though it's drug lords largely who got hurt by this,

692
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 2: but now what's happening is their cases are getting reversed

693
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 2: and getting thrown out, and these dangerous guys are getting

694
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 2: out of prison because of what she did. So it

695
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 2: matters that the cops weren't doing their job correctly and

696
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,720
Speaker 2: she wasn't doing her job correctly. In the system of justice,

697
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,319
Speaker 2: it's a three legged stool, and this is something I

698
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,919
Speaker 2: say in the podcast Prosecutors, cops and defense attorneys in court.

699
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 2: Any one of those three doesn't do their job and

700
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 2: the stool falls down, and that's what happened here. This

701
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 2: is unusual. Usually it's one of the others but we

702
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 2: have to be cognizant of the fact that it matters.

703
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 2: There are ripple effects that occur as a result when

704
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 2: someone doesn't do what they're supposed to do.

705
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 1: And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. So I'm

706
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 1: really curious this vantage of understanding all of this and

707
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:06,919
Speaker 1: the amount of media literacy people have now. Still more

708
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 1: is needed, but we've come a long way, you know,

709
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,479
Speaker 1: since since the famous trial. What do you think would

710
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: happen if the OJ Simpson trial were tried today? Do

711
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:18,760
Speaker 1: you think it would be different?

712
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 2: I think it would. I think it would because now

713
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 2: there are competing narratives that get to be heard, that

714
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 2: get disseminated, and that's a very good thing. I think

715
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 2: for all that we have been decrying can cancel culture

716
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 2: and all that stuff, and I agree that we shouldn't

717
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 2: have it. I in favor of having people have a voice,

718
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 2: whether you agree with it or not. Let everyone speak,

719
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 2: or just about everyone. You know, we have a First Amendment.

720
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 2: It does have certain guidelines. They're loose, and they should

721
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,399
Speaker 2: be because I do want to hear from the right wing.

722
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 2: I want to hear from the left wing. I want

723
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 2: to hear from every wing. If I possibly can, as

724
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 2: long as it doesn't do obvious harm. The old saw

725
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 2: about crying fire in a crowded theater, well.

726
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 1: Exactly, you can't incite hate speech or harm.

727
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 2: But yeah, right, inciting a riot or that kind of thing.

728
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 2: But other than that, competing points of view good thing,

729
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 2: and I want to hear them, and I think you

730
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 2: would today. Back then, things were so much more narrow,

731
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 2: even though you had television that was showing all kinds

732
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 2: of things. Television was kind of a distorting force too,

733
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 2: because you have this moving picture, you see snapshots. You

734
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 2: don't see the whole thing. You don't under you know,

735
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 2: don't necessarily pay attention to all the things that are

736
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 2: said in court and or could you. Everybody has lives.

737
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 2: But as a result, when you only see me yelling

738
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 2: in one in one two second sound bite, you don't

739
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 2: see the whole other eight hours of very calm, reflective discourse.

740
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 2: So that was kind of a distorting influence. Whereas today

741
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 2: you would probably have people on both sides saying, well

742
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 2: I think this or I think that. Back then, Howard

743
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 2: Stern and I think Coralda Rivera were the only two

744
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 2: willing to come out front and say I think that

745
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 2: Simpson was guilty. I think he's did it. I think

746
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,879
Speaker 2: he should be found guilty. But everyone else was very

747
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 2: afraid to say, oh, he did it. Yes, I think so.

748
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 2: In fact, in the very beginning it was not divided

749
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 2: by race. Everyone hated us. Everyone said I don't want

750
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 2: to hear this, it's not true. I don't believe it.

751
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 2: And then even when they started to believe it, I

752
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 2: would hear things from people saying like, well, you know,

753
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 2: I haven't seen all the evidence, so I can't form

754
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 2: an opinion. But you're not on the jury. You can

755
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 2: form an opinion today right now, in the next five minutes.

756
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 2: No one cares. You get to say what you think.

757
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 2: People were afraid to say what they thought, so I

758
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 2: don't think that would be the case today. Even though

759
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 2: we have a certain degree of worry about, you know,

760
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 2: people being afraid to voice their opinions that are not popular,

761
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:54,399
Speaker 2: I think that's relaxing a lot. And I think people

762
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 2: are more and more willing thanks to podcasts like yours,

763
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 2: for example, podcast like The Fifth Column, More Blocked and Reported,

764
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 2: or you Know or job Steps. You know, you have

765
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 2: all these podcasts that are willing to be brave and

766
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 2: say what they have, say what they think, whether it's

767
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 2: popular or not. That's a really good thing, and people

768
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 2: have access to it another very good things. So I

769
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 2: do think it would probably be different. Would we have

770
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 2: won a conviction, maybe not. It might have been a

771
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 2: hung jury. I think that with even back then, had

772
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:25,760
Speaker 2: we had a judge who knew how to run a courtroom,

773
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 2: we would have had hung jury then too, and it

774
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 2: would have gone a lot faster as well. But but

775
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 2: you know, that's just a just a guess.

776
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,799
Speaker 1: Sure, Yeah, I think it must be so hard to

777
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,879
Speaker 1: speculate on that stuff. I mean, I know people have

778
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 1: even asked you, oh, do you think if the you know,

779
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 1: the prosecutor had been a man, that it might have

780
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 1: gone differently, And it's like, how are you supposed to know?

781
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 2: Well, how am I supposed to know? But it's also

782
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 2: it ignores the much more important forces that were in play.

783
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:57,919
Speaker 1: Say more about that.

784
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, race became a huge vocal issue. I was really

785
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 2: more beside the point than people realize. And so there

786
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 2: was four hundred years of social injustice being packed into

787
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 2: that courtroom. Rodney King, As I said, whenever you have

788
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 2: a case that's getting buried under all of these social

789
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 2: issues that really have nothing to do with the evidence

790
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 2: at all. He did not kill the goal because she's white.

791
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 2: She did not divorce him because he's black. None of

792
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:25,359
Speaker 2: that mattered to them, and so none of that had

793
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 2: anything to do with the case. Should never have been

794
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 2: allowed in the courtroom, but once it is, it can't

795
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 2: help but have a divisive and very distorting impact on

796
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 2: the evidence and on the jurors as well. And so,

797
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:42,240
Speaker 2: you know, I think that's true, and that was true

798
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 2: then and it's still true now in any case where

799
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 2: you have that sort of thing happening. And I do

800
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 2: think it may have had an impact, and it still

801
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 2: having an impact on the lawyer X cases because there's

802
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,919
Speaker 2: a certain Nicola Gobbo herself is in hiding. But people

803
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 2: are still wondering who's going to be held accountable. What

804
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:01,320
Speaker 2: about all the police who knew that they shouldn't be

805
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 2: using a defense attorneys as an informant. They knew it,

806
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 2: They knew this wasn't the right thing to do, but

807
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 2: they still did it. But no one's been prosecuted yet.

808
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 2: And I think that they're afraid because the public really

809
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,240
Speaker 2: doesn't want to see cops go and go to prison,

810
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 2: or go to jail, or even get fired necessarily because

811
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 2: they liked what they were doing. They cleaned up the streets.

812
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 2: After all, of course, they did stop crying.

813
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 1: And it's really hard to puncture the idea of the

814
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 1: good guy coming to save you. We're dealing with this

815
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 1: in our country all the time. You know, when you

816
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 1: realize that a third of the people murdered in America

817
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 1: die at the hands of a police officer, you go like,

818
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 1: oh God, what does that mean? You know what a

819
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 1: hold on? And it is really hard. And I say

820
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 1: this as a person who grew up, you know, with

821
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 1: my very favorite show on TV for a long time

822
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:51,879
Speaker 1: being On Order SVU and who played a cop on TV?

823
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,839
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I've had to reckon with a lot.

824
00:45:55,280 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 1: It's really complicated when you pierce the veil of the

825
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 1: societal story of who's a hero, who's a bad guy who?

826
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:15,240
Speaker 1: It's deeply uncomfortable. And yeah, the question of this case,

827
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 1: you know, this lawyer X thing that you're talking about.

828
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 1: Did they need the information, yes, did they need to

829
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:22,239
Speaker 1: put the bad guys away?

830
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 2: Yes?

831
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:25,360
Speaker 1: Did they do it in potentially the wrong way that

832
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:27,279
Speaker 1: probably put a woman in her family at risk.

833
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 2: Yes, what does it all mean?

834
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,720
Speaker 1: Because someone will also say, well, she chose to defend

835
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 1: these people, and it's like, oh god, it's hard.

836
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 2: It's hard, and it's very It's what's fascinates me about

837
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:42,279
Speaker 2: Lawyer X is also what leads a person to put

838
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 2: themselves in this position where she's up against it. She's

839
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 2: really she's an up and comer, and then she's a

840
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 2: celebrated lawyer and she has all this power and all

841
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 2: this fame and very successful and then turns on a

842
00:46:55,640 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 2: dime to become an informant and suddenly turns on the

843
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 2: very people who made her as successful as she is,

844
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 2: and at the same time that makes her miserable, and

845
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 2: she goes through all kinds of stress, and I, you know,

846
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 2: I just think this is a psychological study that is

847
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 2: endless because there's all these layers to it. Yes, she's

848
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,280
Speaker 2: a power player, but she's also a pleaser. She's someone

849
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 2: who wants to be the very best lawyer possible for

850
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 2: all these bad guys, but also wants to be the

851
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 2: very best informant the police have ever seen it. She

852
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 2: actually said that to them, I want to be the

853
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 2: best informant you've ever had. Am I not the best?

854
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 2: I mean, this is a person whose personality is so

855
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:35,959
Speaker 2: complex and so at odds with her with her self.

856
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 2: It's like she chases her own tail all the time.

857
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 2: Twenty four to seven. I you know, I did try

858
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 2: to reach out to her a number of times.

859
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: Did you get to her?

860
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 2: I try and never got to, never got to. But

861
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:48,399
Speaker 2: that would be one of the interviews that I would

862
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 2: really really love to have to find out why did

863
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 2: you do it? What made you do it? How do

864
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:56,439
Speaker 2: you feel about it now? What are your regrets? I mean,

865
00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 2: because I can see you know, it's really hard. It's

866
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 2: hard to actually weave your way through the path, the

867
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 2: psychological path that she wound up in to find you know,

868
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 2: she went this way and this way and this way

869
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:11,879
Speaker 2: and this way. It is the serpentine path, to put

870
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:15,279
Speaker 2: it mildly, And now you know she's I don't know

871
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 2: where she is, and that's probably a very good thing

872
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 2: for her and her children. But I mean, it's what

873
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 2: a case study that is well, and what.

874
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 1: An interesting thing too. I wonder how you obviously your

875
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:28,880
Speaker 1: circumstances are very different, but I wonder how you relate

876
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:31,799
Speaker 1: because even for you, you know, you mentioned earlier you

877
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 1: were so disillusioned with the justice system after the acquittal,

878
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 1: and you left the LA District Attorney's office afterwards, and

879
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 1: your life has taken all these different twists and turns

880
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,799
Speaker 1: and the writing and the podcast and the lecturing and

881
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 1: all the things you do. Do you miss anything about

882
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 1: your old career? Are there things that you would do

883
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 1: differently now? Or are you happy where it's all landed.

884
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: Maybe it's also a little bit of both.

885
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think I'm kind of a fatalist

886
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 2: about that. Things happened the way they happened, you know,

887
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 2: and so I'm here now, and it just it was

888
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 2: what it was, and that's what I don't look back

889
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 2: and say, Gee, I wish I were a prosecutor again.

890
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 2: Then again, you know, I left the office because I

891
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,839
Speaker 2: had to at that time. I just couldn't envision going

892
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:26,799
Speaker 2: back into court, and then I did what I did

893
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:28,399
Speaker 2: after that, you know what I mean. It just kind

894
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 2: of I've always been that way. I was that way

895
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 2: before I became a prosecutor. This looks right, that looks right,

896
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 2: and you know, whatever fits in at that time, as

897
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 2: you say, when work in progress exactly. So, yeah, I

898
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:45,800
Speaker 2: do wonder about someone like Nicolagabo whose ambition was always

899
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 2: the same. She wasn't like me. She was somebody who

900
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 2: always wanted to be a lawyer. At one time even

901
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 2: thought about being a prime minister. She was. She came

902
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 2: from legal royalty, that was her background, and her uncle

903
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:01,319
Speaker 2: was a very famous barrister. So she came from, you know,

904
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 2: a family that it makes it not surprising that she

905
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 2: would want to be a high powered criminal lawyer, and

906
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:10,319
Speaker 2: so that she became one, and she succeeded to such great,

907
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,840
Speaker 2: such a great degree, only to throw it all away

908
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 2: by becoming a notorious informant and becoming the focus of

909
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 2: a huge legal scandal in Australia is so mind boggling

910
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:26,840
Speaker 2: to me. She yes, honestly, she threw away her own dream.

911
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean her story is wild and it as

912
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:34,400
Speaker 1: you talk about it, and I think about all these stories.

913
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:37,760
Speaker 1: Why do you think we're all so obsessed with true crime?

914
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 1: What do you think that is?

915
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 2: You know, Sophia, I'm one of them so well, he

916
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 2: do like this. This is a very good question. Why

917
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 2: are we like the way we are? I just don't know.

918
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that ultimately true crime fanatics like

919
00:50:55,520 --> 00:51:00,160
Speaker 2: us are curious. They're curious, they want to so all

920
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 2: the mystery. They want to know the answer, they want

921
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 2: to get the solution. You know, why did this happen?

922
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:08,320
Speaker 2: How did this happen? These are always they're puzzles to solve.

923
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:10,880
Speaker 2: And I don't mean to be that in a demeaning

924
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 2: or just diminishing way, because often lives are on the line,

925
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 2: serious issues are in play. Here, you're more serious, but

926
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 2: at base, I think it is a curiosity and a

927
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 2: need to know that fuels the True crime Society community.

928
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:27,439
Speaker 2: And I feel like it is a community, and it's

929
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 2: one that I've been a member of for a long

930
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 2: standing member of since childhood. And I don't see that

931
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:33,240
Speaker 2: ever changing.

932
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think it's going to change for me either.

933
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:39,320
Speaker 2: I'm so sucked.

934
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 1: So you know, we're on the the precipice of this

935
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 1: new show, and there's such an incredible life and multifaceted

936
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 1: career behind you, and you're looking forward with all these

937
00:51:53,640 --> 00:52:00,200
Speaker 1: new projects as you look out at what excites you,

938
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 1: you know, what comes next, what feels like you're work

939
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 1: in progress in your life. It could be professional or personal.

940
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 2: I feel like everything in my life is a work

941
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 2: in progress on YouTube. You know, from day to day,

942
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 2: I feel like I learned something new. I learned to

943
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 2: improve about one thing or another, whether it's big or small,

944
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 2: every single day. And that's why I related so much

945
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 2: to your show. It's such a great idea work in progress.

946
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, and I kind of think that if

947
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 2: you're not a work in progress, then you're kind of

948
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 2: treading water in not a good way. You want to

949
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:39,439
Speaker 2: be always in progress, developing, learning, improving if you can.

950
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:41,320
Speaker 2: That's what we trieded.

951
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:47,640
Speaker 1: That's absolutely I love that. Well, thank you so much.

952
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 1: It's really it's just such an honor to have you

953
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:54,839
Speaker 1: on the show. I'm absolutely geeked about this, and I'm

954
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 1: so excited for the new podcast and I'm so I'm

955
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:02,400
Speaker 1: just so excited to watch all of the next iterations

956
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:05,400
Speaker 1: of the work that you do. Thank you for taking

957
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 1: the time today.

958
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Sophia. It's been a pleasure. I

959
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 2: hope you enjoy Lawyer X on Wondering Plus I can't

960
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:12,479
Speaker 2: wait