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Speaker 1: Mel Here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: And welcome back George Norriy along with Russ Baker. Russ

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Speaker 2: Marina Oswell, who's not Oswald anymore. She's since been remarried,

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Speaker 2: is now eighty two, still lives in Texas, and is

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Speaker 2: basically admitted that after she talked to the Warren Commission

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Speaker 2: that she thought Lee might be guilty, has backtracked a

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Speaker 2: lot and doesn't think that he was part of it

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Speaker 2: at all.

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Speaker 3: What do you think?

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Speaker 4: She yes, she does not believe that he was involved,

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Speaker 4: although although she doesn't know what was what, you know,

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Speaker 4: you have to remember that she was a teen when

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Speaker 4: she met him, you know, and as she points out,

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Speaker 4: I mean he was twenty four years old when he died.

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Speaker 4: I mean most of us, I mean, what have we

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Speaker 4: even done by the time we're twenty four. I mean

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Speaker 4: this guy had gone, you know, around the world, he'd

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Speaker 4: done all kinds of things, and he was already accused

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Speaker 4: of kill the President of the United States and dead. So

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Speaker 4: she doesn't know, but she doesn't believe that he would

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Speaker 4: have done that. She understands that he may have been

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Speaker 4: involved in something and my evidence based on the many

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Speaker 4: years of research I've done, is that he was involved

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Speaker 4: in something, but what he was involved in is something

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Speaker 4: quite different. And another article on our website who Why

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Speaker 4: dot org org is a very interesting article about Lee

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Speaker 4: Oswald leaving the Marines, getting a discharge, and then going

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Speaker 4: in a rush to the Soviet Union. And of course

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Speaker 4: that has been used to say, well, he was a leftist,

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Speaker 4: but all you'd have to do is look at that

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Speaker 4: to see that he had inside information on how you

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Speaker 4: get in to the Soviet Union, and we write all

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Speaker 4: about that he knew things that nobody knew about how

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Speaker 4: to get right in there, and there was something going on.

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Speaker 4: They had a thing called the false defector program. They

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Speaker 4: were sending because the US lacked intelligence assets on the

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Speaker 4: ground in the Soviet Union, they urgently needed them, and

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Speaker 4: so by all indications, a number of people, servicemen and

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Speaker 4: others were being sent in there. And it looks like

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Speaker 4: that's what Lee was doing. And I think Marina is

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Speaker 4: aware of that distinct possibility under.

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Speaker 2: The guise of being a double agent or something like that,

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Speaker 2: when they're really working for the United States government.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and of course the Soviets were no dopes, and

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Speaker 4: so when a guy like him shows up, they immediately

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Speaker 4: suspect he's an agent. And so this George is this

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Speaker 4: kind of cat and mouse game. In other words, they're

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Speaker 4: putting these people in there to sort of feel everything out.

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Speaker 4: They want to see who approaches you, you know, who talks

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Speaker 4: to you? Does the KGB approach you? You see? And so

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Speaker 4: they're they're they're they're putting him in. They're putting these

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Speaker 4: people in as a probe to start monitoring the situation

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Speaker 4: on the ground.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I'm there's just so much to Mark Shaw

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Speaker 2: got involved heavily in the Dorothy Kilgallon death.

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Speaker 3: What are your thoughts on that?

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Speaker 4: Well, you know, there one doesn't want to rush to judgment,

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Speaker 4: but there were so many people looking into things, saying

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Speaker 4: things I mentioned to you. And I know that she

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Speaker 4: died in under strange circumstances, but so did literally a

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Speaker 4: dozen scores of people. And as you know, I'm working

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Speaker 4: on another book. I've been working out at Kennedy Book Now.

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Speaker 4: It's a time it finished. Will I've been at least

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Speaker 4: a couple of decades, uh, But and I am far along.

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Speaker 4: But in that book I'll be describing a lot of

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Speaker 4: these strange deaths, very very weird, the timing many of

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Speaker 4: them as they were about to be called in to

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Speaker 4: testify to subsequent investigative panels. This man, George de moorn Shield,

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Speaker 4: who was squiring Lee Oswald, was was being had just

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Speaker 4: received a subpoena to come to Washington and testify, and

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Speaker 4: he's supposed to went home a man who we know

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Speaker 4: was scared of guns and somehow took a shotgun, which

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Speaker 4: not easy to do, and supposed he blew his own

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Speaker 4: brains out. So yeah, yeah, you got some questions there.

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Speaker 2: Is he the guy that Jim Garrison was investigating.

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Speaker 4: No, No, you're talking about Clay Shaw, I think.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I know, and by the.

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Speaker 4: Way, Clay Shaw, that's a whole other story about this

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Speaker 4: group in New Orleans around Lee Oswald. Uh And and

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Speaker 4: you know Clay Shaw, we you know, have records showing

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Speaker 4: that he was tied to the CIA. So I mean,

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Speaker 4: the CIA is all over this thing, the FBI is

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Speaker 4: all over this thing. I mean, those people who insist

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Speaker 4: to this day, and that's most of our of our

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Speaker 4: media insists that the official story that it was Oswald

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Speaker 4: a disgruntled leftist. I mean, it's it's not not even

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Speaker 4: a child should believe this stuff. I mean, the evidence

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Speaker 4: is it's so overwhelming, it's right in front of us.

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Speaker 4: You have to be really, really in denial to still

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Speaker 4: buy that.

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Speaker 2: Whoever packaged Oswald as the possible assassin did a good

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Speaker 2: job doing that.

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Speaker 4: Didn't they They did a great job. And then going

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Speaker 4: back to that building, just to briefly and again people

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Speaker 4: can read this on who What, Why, dot Org all

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Speaker 4: the detail. But you know, as I continue to look

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Speaker 4: at this Harold Bird and you know, I don't know

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Speaker 4: how involved or what is involvement was. But obviously, as

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Speaker 4: they say, close friend to Johnson offered this building. Johnson's

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Speaker 4: people pushed for a route where they where the Kennedy's

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Speaker 4: car went right by the building. Bird allows this company

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Speaker 4: to move in. The company hires Oswald. And by the way,

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Speaker 4: they hire Oswald, and they're a textbook company. They shipped

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Speaker 4: textbooks to the schools. They ship mainly once a year.

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Speaker 3: It was like a warehouse, wasn't it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And so the orders come in and

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Speaker 4: they ship their orders out, and the orders go out,

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Speaker 4: you know, basically in the early summer they go out

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Speaker 4: so that the school districts have the books when schools start.

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Speaker 4: But what you see is that they have very few

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Speaker 4: order pickers, but they hire Oswald. And I found a

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Speaker 4: oral history account with the widow of the man who

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Speaker 4: owned the book company that hired Oswald, and she says, yeah, well,

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Speaker 4: we usually laid off our people because there really wasn't

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Speaker 4: much business this time of year. But my husband met

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Speaker 4: Oswald and it seemed like a nice fellow. And they said, well,

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Speaker 4: let's try to give him some work. And they said

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Speaker 4: they were giving him work laying flooring, laying flooring, and

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Speaker 4: very interesting, what was going on the week of November

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Speaker 4: twenty two. They were ostensibly laying new floors on the

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Speaker 4: sixth floor of the school book depository.

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Speaker 3: Interesting. Interesting? Did people like him?

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Speaker 4: You know, here's another interesting thing, George and I've talked

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Speaker 4: to many, many people who knew him, including this interview

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Speaker 4: we have on Hui with his friend from Russia, and

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Speaker 4: they liked him. And this man says that the portrayal

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Speaker 4: of him as a nasty fellow, as a loner, eccentric,

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Speaker 4: he says, it's bull. He says, this guy was friendly,

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Speaker 4: he was intelligent, he was well read, he loved to

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Speaker 4: discuss a philosophy and politics and history and literature and music.

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Speaker 4: That he describes him as a very likable, grounded person,

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Speaker 4: so completely, completely the opposite. If you read the warrant commission,

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Speaker 4: they find these people come up there and they talk

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Speaker 4: about him being violent and this and that, and you know,

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Speaker 4: doesn't seem to be true.

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Speaker 3: Two things confuse me about Oswell. One is the JD.

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Speaker 2: Tippett police officers situation where Oswell apparently shot him to

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Speaker 2: death and was picked up and arrested in a theater.

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Speaker 3: What was that all about.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's hard to know. And certainly I put, as

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Speaker 4: many others, have a lot of time into this over

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Speaker 4: the years. The best I can figure out, and again

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Speaker 4: this is just based on a whole sort of constellation

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Speaker 4: of factors. Is that you see, the Tippet shooting was

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Speaker 4: critical because see, nobody saw Oswald shoot Kennedy. There were

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Speaker 4: no eyewitnesses, no, So how would you say it was Oswald? Well,

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Speaker 4: they said they found his gun, but that's a whole

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Speaker 4: other thing. I don't know if you remember that. But

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Speaker 4: they held up a rifle and it was identified as

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Speaker 4: a seven six y five Mauser, And all the news

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Speaker 4: articles say that the Mauser was found in the warehouse.

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Speaker 4: By the next day they were saying it was a

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Speaker 4: man lick or kar Kana. Well, excuse me. You know,

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Speaker 4: these guys are sheriffs and police, many of them were

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Speaker 4: gun experts, and they held up the gun. You even

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Speaker 4: see a guy on video looking right at the barrel. Okay,

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Speaker 4: So those two guns are not the same. And that

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Speaker 4: was very strange, and it almost looks like they screwed up,

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Speaker 4: you know. And this happens, by the way, I could

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Speaker 4: tell you I read a news organization. Screw ups happened constantly, right,

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Speaker 4: So they screwed up. They were supposed to put a

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Speaker 4: man Or Carcano there, and somebody put a Mauser there

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Speaker 4: and it was like whoops, and so they had to

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Speaker 4: switch it. And they said to the press, oh, I mean,

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Speaker 4: nobody even asked, well, how come you said it was

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Speaker 4: a Mauser, you know, on Friday, and by Saturday it's

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Speaker 4: a man Or Carcano. But anyway, so you've got nothing.

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Speaker 4: You got very little on Oswald and there's no evidence

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Speaker 4: really that he even owned a rifle. Although Marina, you

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Speaker 4: have to know, Marina was being heavily pressured to say

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Speaker 4: certain things.

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Speaker 2: Sure, and she was, and she was scared. She was

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Speaker 2: scared to death. She was twenty two years old.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, let me tell you something, George. I interview

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Speaker 4: people now and I just got back from Texas, and

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Speaker 4: they're scared now still, Oh, they're terrified talking about the

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Speaker 4: major people in this story are going to take this

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Speaker 4: thing to their graves.

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Speaker 3: Most people have died, haven't they.

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Speaker 4: Well, there are quite a few who are still alive,

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Speaker 4: believe it or not, because they were, you know, in

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Speaker 4: their twenties at the time, and maybe now they're eighty

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Speaker 4: or in there.

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Speaker 2: All right, anyways, put Oswald in that theater? What was

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Speaker 2: that all about?

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Speaker 4: So anyway, so basically all you've got is that Oswald

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Speaker 4: worked in a building that plenty of other people worked in.

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Speaker 4: You know, they're saying that the shots came from there.

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Speaker 4: But as you know, when the thing began, most of

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Speaker 4: the people ran up the grass toward that parking lot

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Speaker 4: up ahead and thought that the shots had come from there.

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Speaker 4: The overwhelming majority thought the shots came from there, until

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Speaker 4: the police said, no, we think the shots came the building.

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Speaker 4: And then the attention shifted to the building. Now they

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Speaker 4: found Oswald, you know this, and he was standing on

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Speaker 4: the second floor in a lunch room. They say the

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Speaker 4: shots came the sixth floor. But ninety seconds after the

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Speaker 4: shots were fired, they run into Oswald standing by a

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Speaker 4: coke machine, holding a coke, calmly, not sweating, looking absolutely normal,

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Speaker 4: and he says, what's all the commotion?

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Speaker 3: Exactly exactly, So.

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Speaker 4: I got to say, this guy would have been the

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Speaker 4: world's best actor and athlete. But anyway, so they got

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Speaker 4: nothing on this guy. Okay, Now that day, that day,

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Speaker 4: sometimes later the people leave, they go home, he leaves

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Speaker 4: the building, and sometime later suddenly you hear police officers shot. Well,

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Speaker 4: as soon as you hear police officers shot, what happens

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Speaker 4: is law enforcement goes nuts. You know, that's a special code.

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Speaker 4: You know, people I thinking that could have been me,

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Speaker 4: and they really get fired up. So now whatever, you know,

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Speaker 4: And by the way, a lot of people in Dallas,

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Speaker 4: police and others did not like Kennedy. I assume you

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Speaker 4: know that there was a lot of conservatives there. They

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Speaker 4: did not like Kennedy. And so you know, I mean,

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Speaker 4: people made callous remarks after he was shot. There were

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Speaker 4: schools where children cheered but they heard that he'd been

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Speaker 4: shot in Dallas. Yeah, and so you have to know

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Speaker 4: that the police in general were not well disposed to Kennedy,

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Speaker 4: who was already doing things for racial desegregation. This was

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Speaker 4: a very very conservative place. But anyway, so Kennedy gets

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Speaker 4: shot and it's like, oh my gosh, Kennedy's been shot. Well,

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Speaker 4: we didn't like it. But then they hear that one

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Speaker 4: of their own, a police officer, has been shot. Now

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Speaker 4: everybody goes nuts. Okay, and they're all racing to the

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Speaker 4: scene and where this police officer was shot. Well, who

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Speaker 4: shot the policeman? We don't know. And then suddenly comes

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Speaker 4: the word, oh, a guy was seen going into a

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Speaker 4: movie theater. Well, I mean, come on, somebody's going into

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Speaker 4: a movie theater. I mean, why would you be suspicion.

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Speaker 4: They didn't even know what he looked.

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Speaker 3: Like, and what was Tippet shot by a pistol or

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Speaker 3: a rifle?

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Speaker 4: He was shot by a pistol. And this gets into

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Speaker 4: a whole other story. It's a long, long, long story,

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Speaker 4: but basically, there are a number of possibilities here. There

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Speaker 4: is a possibility, I think somewhat remote, that Oswald realized

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Speaker 4: that he was a marked man and that there was

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Speaker 4: an effort to frame him, because you remember he said

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Speaker 4: I'm a pathy.

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Speaker 2: Well I'm going to ask you about that because I

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Speaker 2: have ideas and let's see if we can work on that.

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Speaker 4: But go ahead, sure, yeah, well we'll keep this in mind.

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Speaker 4: By the way, they all say, well, why did Oswald

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Speaker 4: she Kennedy? Well, number one, everybody knew him said that

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Speaker 4: he loved Kennedy. Okay, so that doesn't make sense. Number two,

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Speaker 4: if he's a leftist, why shoot Kennedy who is trying

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Speaker 4: to have a rock prochement with uh with with with

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Speaker 4: with the Soviets, So why would you do that? Right,

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Speaker 4: So it doesn't make sense on any level. Then people say, well,

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Speaker 4: he did it because he wanted to be famous, he

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Speaker 4: wanted to be known to history. But then if he

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Speaker 4: wanted to be known to history, why did he see

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Speaker 4: to the police? I did not do.

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Speaker 2: It, That's right, I was, Which leads me to this question.

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Speaker 2: With today's technology, and we've got incredible technology, can we

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Speaker 2: take that audio clip where he says I'm a patsy

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Speaker 2: and have them decide whether he's telling the truth or

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Speaker 2: not with that clip.

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Speaker 4: That's a great idea, you know, I vaguely recall there's.

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Speaker 3: Got to be some technology out there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that instantly can tell you if you're telling the

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Speaker 2: truth or not.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there there is a voice. What's the right word,

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Speaker 4: I'm looking forward. There there is a technology they used

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Speaker 4: to listen to a voice to see if somebody is

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Speaker 4: telling the truth. I thought I had had somebody do

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Speaker 4: that some years ago. I'd have to go back and

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Speaker 4: look at my notes. But I do know anecdotally that

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Speaker 4: when I presented that to people who are experts, they

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Speaker 4: said they had no reason to think that he was lying.

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Speaker 2: See if you can find somebody Russ, we'll pay for it,

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Speaker 2: and let's see what they might conclude.

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Speaker 4: Okay, sure enough, Well, anyway, just common sense. If this

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Speaker 4: guy was trying to become world famous for killing the president,

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Speaker 4: they said, and do it, and used the word patsy.

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Speaker 4: You know, that's a very interesting word. That word specifically

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Speaker 4: means I am being set.

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Speaker 3: Up, set up exactly.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure he knew what was happening, but they

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Speaker 2: framed him, they used him. They knew all along they

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Speaker 2: were going to make everybody seek because it came out instantly,

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Speaker 2: didn't it in the newspapers about Oswald?

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Speaker 4: Oh? Yeah, ably they immediately. And by the way, they

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Speaker 4: didn't give this guy a lawyer. You know, think about that.

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Speaker 4: They did not give him a lawyer, and he you know,

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Speaker 4: he asked, he wanted them to make a phone call

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Speaker 4: to somebody. See, his problem was that if he was

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Speaker 4: working as I think he was, for US intelligence, Uh,

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Speaker 4: he was set up for this whole thing. He was

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Speaker 4: in that building because he was told to be in

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Speaker 4: that building. He was told he was in there for

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Speaker 4: some reason. But he wasn't told that Kennedy's going to

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Speaker 4: be shot or that you're going to be blamed for it.

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Speaker 4: And so you can imagine, I mean, he was used

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Speaker 4: to playing roles. He was a pretty cool customer if

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Speaker 4: he'd already been through the Soviet Union and hadn't blaked

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Speaker 4: an eye, and so he was able to stay. I mean,

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Speaker 4: he wasn't screaming when he was in the building, but

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Speaker 4: he was scared. He was very, very nervous. He was

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Speaker 4: very worried about what was going on. But let's get

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Speaker 4: back to the tip shooting. So the tip of shooting happens,

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Speaker 4: and they say, there are these stories that a man

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Speaker 4: went into a theater. Now, so what a man went

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Speaker 4: into a theater? They did say, you know, man went

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Speaker 4: into a theater with a gun blazing. You know, they

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Speaker 4: just said a man went into a theater, and the

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Speaker 4: stories about the theater. This all all be in my

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Speaker 4: next book when it finally comes out. All the detail

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Speaker 4: of the stories about the theater are inconsistent, and they

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Speaker 4: keep changing the story. Somebody says, oh, you know that

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Speaker 4: the woman in the ticket booths saw him go in

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Speaker 4: without buying a ticket. No, that's not the right story.

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Speaker 4: And other stories that a man owned a shoe store

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Speaker 4: down the block, saw a fellow walk by and look

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Speaker 4: in the window and then was suspicious of him. Well,

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Speaker 4: you know any shoe store anywhere in the city, you're

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Speaker 4: suspicious of a guy looks at your window. So he

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Speaker 4: says that he went out in the shop, walked down

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Speaker 4: the block, and they claims that he saw this man

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Speaker 4: go into the theater and that called police. So there's

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Speaker 4: a lot of inconsistent stories about why you would even

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Speaker 4: be assisted in a man who went into a theater.

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