WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 69 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.320 you know this is a completion episode. So every episode 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.399 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:13.240 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:15.760 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:17.720 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.919 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:23.880 can make your own decisions. Hey, everybody, Robert here. UM. 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:28.280 I recorded this with Jason about two days before UM 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:32.440 Wizards of the Coast put out an announcement completely backpedaling 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:35.320 on everything they had been planning to do to the 0:00:35.360 --> 0:00:40.560 Open Gaming License UM. Of survey of fifteen thousand fans 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:43.839 said they were not happy with the Wizards, UH the 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:48.680 authorizing UM the one point out open gaming license and uh, 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:51.599 I mean, what it looks like is a lot of 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:55.240 people unregistered from D and D beyond and UM. A 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:58.440 lot of people called in complaining and the numbers folks 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:02.160 at Wizards panicked. UM and as a result, they are 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:06.480 completely folding on the plans to rescind or de authorize 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:09.319 the Open Gaming License UM and in factive announced that 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:13.040 they are making it UH the exact terms they use 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:18.880 are irrevocable, and uh, yeah, that's that's good. Yeah, and 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:22.600 they put everything under an irrevocable Creative Commons license. So 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:24.920 this is all just breaking, um, But I think it's 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:29.400 broadly good news. Anytime a giant company chooses to do 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:32.520 something kind of crummy with a piece of what what 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:37.200 I would say is actually pretty meaningful intellectual heritage. Uh, 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:40.880 and then they get slapped down and panic and reverse course, 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:44.240 that's a good thing. Um. It shows a number of things, 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:46.720 which one of which probably the most important of which 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:50.600 is that the community of people who recognize their value 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:54.200 in these kinds of games, in this h this pastime, 0:01:54.840 --> 0:02:00.920 this recreational activity, um also fundamentally value the essence of 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:04.600 like what is open source ideology, which is nice, Like, 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:08.720 it's nice to know that the open source folks we 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:11.200 can still throw a punch every now and again, even 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:13.120 if it's just a punch at Wizards of the Coast. 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:18.320 So happy ending, everybody, Happy ending. Also, the good folks 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:20.960 at Pizo sold out of eight months worth of Pathfinder 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:29.240 books in like two weeks, so that's nice too. Uh, 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:33.280 it could happen. Here is the podcast that you are 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:36.359 listening to right now, I am Robert Evans. This is 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:39.840 a show about things falling apart and sometimes putting them 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:42.920 back together. And today we're we're taking a little bit 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:45.160 of a different tax. In recent weeks, you've listened to 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:49.600 us cover a wide variety of issues, from conflicts in 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:52.839 places like me and mar two conflicts here at home 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:56.560 in the city of Atlanta, UM, to deep dives in 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:59.240 history and all that all that good stuff that that 0:02:59.280 --> 0:03:02.280 you know and of us. For today, we are talking 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:05.400 about a subject that is unusually close to my heart. 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:09.800 Dungeons and Dragons. Now, I'm gonna guess, just given the 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:13.160 nature of our listenership, a decent chunk of you grew 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:15.880 up playing d and d UM, and just because of 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:20.280 how really shockingly suddenly it's become much more popular than 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:23.000 it than it ever was previously, and much more mainstream. 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:26.480 A lot of you who may have encountered as an adult, Um, 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:29.720 there's a lot that's actually been written, kind of sociologically 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:32.360 on on what Dungeons and Dragons is. A One point 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:34.920 that some people will make is that it's it's kind 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:38.600 of the first new game that we had that that 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:43.160 human beings made up since like chess um, by which 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:45.880 I mean you you have had war games for a 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:48.960 very long period of time. But the concept of a 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:50.760 role playing game and the way that that D and 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:52.920 D is where you're essentially sitting down with a group 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:56.360 of people and engaging in an act of collaborative storytelling 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:59.200 that's kind of buttressed by a system of rules that's 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:02.440 actually a prey the new idea. Now. Now, elements of 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:05.760 this have existed forever um and in fact, kind of 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:08.360 an interesting fact you'll run into is that in the 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:12.280 late medieval period a lot of jousts had role playing elements, 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:15.560 including ones were like rulers and and their their court 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:17.800 would dress up as the knights of the round table 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:20.800 and act in character as those nights. So elements of 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:22.960 all of this stuff have existed for a while. But 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:26.359 when Dungeons and Dragons kind of came together as a 0:04:26.440 --> 0:04:29.560 game for the first time, it was it is kind 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:32.400 of worth seeing it as as something really new and 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:35.640 valuable in the history of play and the history of 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:38.840 human creativity. Um So, as a result of that, I 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:42.320 do kind of think, I personally think there's something a 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:45.840 little bit sacred about that that basic idea, and one 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:48.000 of the things that's really interesting to me about the 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:50.960 industry that grew up around Dungeons and Dragons is that 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:53.599 there have always been a lot of people in it 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:56.440 who I think feel the same way UM and I 0:04:56.480 --> 0:04:59.279 think one of these people was a guy named Ryan Dancy, 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:03.320 and Ryan Dancy Um was vice president in charge of 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:05.760 Dungeons and Dragons at Wizards of the Coast for a 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:09.000 while UM and he helped actually negotiate the sale of 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:11.760 the Dungeons and Dragons property to Wizards of the Coast 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:14.080 when the company that had been distributing it fell apart. 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:16.839 And Dancy was a big part of the institution in 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:19.560 the year two thousand of what became known as the 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:22.960 Open Gaming License. And basically what this meant is that 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:27.279 the set of rules that that D and D worked by, 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:29.680 and at a round two thousand, which was I think 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:31.560 you would call it like three point oh, was the 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:36.120 system in place basically got elements of the mechanics got 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:40.600 effectively open sourced. UM and so Wizards of the Coast 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:44.040 UM went from what had been the previous move of 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:45.719 the people who had owned D and D, which was 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:49.080 kind of to oppose people trying to make third party 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:52.320 content using the ruled source to embracing it and allowing 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:54.960 it to do that freely. UM. And now I'm going 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:57.479 to introduce our guest who was one of the people who, 0:05:57.920 --> 0:05:59.960 uh is kind of the one of the most influence 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:02.400 will folks in what happened after this, because once the 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:05.839 Open Gaming License came into effect, there's suddenly this galaxy 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:09.760 of new games and supplemental materials that people start making, UM, 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:12.640 which you know, Wizards is not profiting from directly, but 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:15.279 which the hobby profits from. UM. And one of the 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:18.039 people who has who has been most influential in that, 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:21.440 is our guest today, Jason Bollman. Jason, you are the 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:24.960 game a lead game designer at Piazzo and the creator 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:28.800 of Pathfinder, which is the I mean, it's not Dungeons 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:31.640 and Dragons, but it uses as its base that kind 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:34.920 of open gaming UH system, and it's it's what I 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:36.919 play when I get a chance to sit down and 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:39.680 play a role playing game. So, first off, Jason, thank 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:43.280 you for several thousand hours of of my my childhood 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:47.679 and early adulthood UM spent playing Pathfinder. Yeah, well thanks 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:51.400 for having me. And yeah, PISO kind of spun off 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:54.680 from Wizards of the Coast, Um, you know, back in 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:57.320 the early days of the open game license, and we 0:06:57.320 --> 0:07:01.440 were there official publishers of their magazine until that kind 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:03.440 of came to an end, and then we we started 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:05.480 making our own game based off the open game license 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:08.120 and did I did I? Did I get all that 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:10.360 right earlier? Do you have any kind of clarifications she'd 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:12.640 like to add before we move further into the conflict, 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:14.400 and there is a conflict. We're not just talking about 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:17.600 how cool d there are. I think there's a there's 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:21.720 an interesting thing to note about games. Games are kind 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:26.120 of weird when it comes to copyright and ownership, and 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:29.840 it's kind of why the open game license is so important. Right. 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:33.680 So TSR, the company that owned Dungeons and Dragons before 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:37.720 Wizards of the Coast, was pretty pretty litigious, as you mentioned, um, 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:39.840 but they ended up getting into kind of a bind 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:43.040 because you know, the game itself is one that encourages 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:47.320 people to make their own content, to kind of homebrew 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:50.720 stuff and invent their own stories. And what it comes 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:55.480 down to is that you know, ultimately game mechanics can't 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:59.640 be copyrighted. That that's been long held, that that those 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:02.080 sorts of things you cannot copyright. That's why you see 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:05.680 so many versions of like scrabble that aren't scrabble. Um. Yeah, 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:08.520 And it's why anyone can make a basketball team or 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:11.080 a basketball league and play basketball. You don't have to 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:15.080 get the NBA's approval to play fucking basketball, exactly, exactly. 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:19.320 So the Open Game License wasn't about giving everyone permission 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:22.320 to use rules, which is something that could already kind 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:25.040 of do. It was about giving them kind of a 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:29.280 safe harbor, a place that everybody involved kind of knew 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:31.400 that this was all okay, no one was going to 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:35.760 be filing frivolous, frivolous lawsuits, and that you could use 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:41.680 kind of direct references without having to be a copyright 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:44.960 lawyer or retaining a giant staff. It allowed a lot 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:48.400 of very little businesses to kind of spring up, making, Hey, 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:50.720 here's my cool adventure that I ran from my group. 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:53.360 You can buy it and play it with your group. Now, 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:55.880 little things like that, And I don't think it's for 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:59.320 nothing that number one a huge thing. And this has 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:02.240 become as Silicon Valley has kind of turned more mercenary, 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:04.360 This has become less of a thing but a massive thing. 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:07.200 And the early history of Silicon Valley in the tech 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:10.280 industry was the open source movement, you know, was the 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:13.160 idea that a lot of people should be able to collaboratively, 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:15.520 work and iterate on things without having to worry about 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:18.480 who owns the basic idea, right, you know. Lennox Is 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:21.600 is a great example of this, and the the ideology 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:24.319 behind the open source movement was a big influence in 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:27.200 the open gaming license. I mean, Dancy kind of admits 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:29.480 that himself. There's a quote where he says that, like, yeah, 0:09:29.480 --> 0:09:31.600 I think we need to embrace some of these ideas 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:33.840 at the heart of the open source movement because I 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:36.439 think it will be a good business decision for Wizards 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:38.800 of the Coast. It will on the whole, even if 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:42.160 we're not profiting directly from every sort of like thing 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:44.200 that people make off of this, the fact that it's 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:49.000 going to cause the hobby to explode will benefit us. 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:50.960 And I think he's been proven right in that because 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:53.480 D and D has gone from this thing that like 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:56.319 I got bullied for in high school too. There's these 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:59.200 massive podcast there's been TV shows that are just people 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:02.720 playing the game. Game like it has reached this level. 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:07.800 I never really expected it would of, like critical and 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:10.440 and mass acceptance, which has been really cool to see. 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:12.120 It's been one of the things that I've been happiest 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:16.720 about watching occurs socially in the last couple of decades. Yeah, 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:21.600 you can't disagree that the business case wasn't super tight, right, 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:25.520 the way that the O g L got all of 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:27.839 the other game companies, many of which had their own 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:31.839 entirely different games in the early two thousands, they all 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:36.800 abandoned them and started making content for D and d UM, 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:39.800 and that just kind of carried forward a large swath 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:42.960 of kind of the game industry, which is pretty cottage, right. 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:45.160 There's a bunch of small players. There's not a lot 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:48.760 of large corporations in here. Um. You know, in fact, 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:52.000 Wizards is by far the largest, And so you've got 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:54.960 a bunch of small game companies that are are seeing 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:58.280 this as a great opportunity to kind of play in 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:01.240 the big pool. And a lot of them followed suit. 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:04.800 So obviously the reason we are here today is that 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:08.280 a paul has been cast recently over what has up 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:11.760 until now been kind of a lovely thing. Um. Wizards 0:11:11.840 --> 0:11:15.760 of the Coast got a new CEO pretty recently, right, Um, 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:20.040 Cynthia Williams is relatively new. Yeah, and and there is 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:23.840 basically murmuring coming from the company that's like, we don't 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:27.200 think D and D is properly capitalized. We we believe 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:29.800 that there's we are leaving money on the table here 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:32.240 and kind of in the wake of some of that 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:34.920 stuff coming out, they announced a series of changes to 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:37.000 the Open Gaming License. And if you if you kind 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:39.240 of want to take it from here and explain, because 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:41.640 I've i've I've I've read and listened to a number 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:44.440 of different folks. I'm saying like, well, it's not as 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:47.160 bad as people are are fearing, and some folks saying 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:50.560 like this would effectively kill a huge chunk of the 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:52.640 hobby and a bunch of the companies that have grown 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:54.560 up in the wake of the Open Gaming License. And 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:58.040 I'm I'm interested in your take on what what Wizards 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:00.280 is doing here and what actually kind of is it risk. 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:04.840 So yeah, I think you you you've plued into the 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:09.160 start of this, which was in early December of last year, 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:15.040 Hasbro earnings call uh Cynthia basically came out and said 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:18.760 D and D was under monetized and they had been 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:23.439 spending the entire previous year, really proliferating magic they're gathering, 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:26.120 which is their other giant brand and kind of really 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:28.880 making a lot of money, like talks of like it 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:33.080 is a billion dollar brand and um, as a result, 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:34.800 you know, there was kind of some murmurings and some 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:38.560 rumblings going through December, um talking about a new version 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:40.680 of the O g L. Wizards themselves came out on 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:43.800 December twenty one, so just a few days before Christmas, 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:45.800 and said that a new O g L was coming 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:50.480 and that it had notes in it about royalty reporting 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:55.000 and um, you know, mentioning that folks won't need to 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:58.959 pay until later um and that um, you know, really 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:00.920 this new license is only going to be to make 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:03.880 books and PDF. So they said this on December twenty one. 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:07.200 And the royalty part of that is was really quite 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:10.800 challenging because it said if you make over seven dollars 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:14.280 a year, um, you might have to pay a sizeable 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:21.640 percentage of your your your gross profit. Like and that's terrifying, 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:24.800 which when you're talking about a business and and this 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:28.360 is not the gaming industry does not run on huge margins. Um. No, 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:33.040 unless you're like making Warhammer models that you're selling for 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:35.640 a hundred and twenty dollars for a piece of plastic 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:39.520 that's tied. Yeah, the margins are pretty tight. Um. So 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:43.680 saying like past, you know, seven K, your company with 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:46.000 however many employees, has to give a quarter like that, 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:49.640 that'll sink people. Yeah. I think a lot of companies, 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:52.480 the larger ones, couldn't sustain that, right. I mean, I 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:57.400 think saying your gross over seven just basically means make 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:00.840 sure you only make seven hundred dollars that year. Um. 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:03.600 I I do think that that is that is a real, 0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:07.200 real dangerous thing to a lot of these businesses. Now, 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:08.960 for a lot of the content creators, this is never 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:11.840 gonna matter. But I do believe that part of this was, 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:16.120 you know, seeing gigantic, multimillion dollar kickstarters happening and kind 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:20.640 of going whereas our yeah, we want a piece of this, um. 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:23.080 And the answer to that is that, like you know, 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:25.360 and it's problematic just crediting the creation of D and 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:29.400 D solely to Gary Gygax, but like the people who 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:32.680 came up with and play tested and made D and 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:34.920 D a thing, and then the people who iterated and 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:38.040 changed and evolved it from you know, the original game 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:40.680 to a D and d um and the years of 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:45.160 FACCO to to three point oh, like like morally outside 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:47.760 of like what I think is justifiable in corporate law 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:50.280 and stuff like, morally, I think it's fucked up to 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:54.600 say that like some company forever gets a piece of 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:57.440 that when what it is is like human beings coming 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:01.680 together to try to figure out the most efficient way 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:04.960 to run an engine for storytelling. Um, I don't know, 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:07.600 it's it's it's it's fucked up to me to think 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:11.600 about it this way. So they announced this alteration to 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:14.720 the Open Gaming License and I'm going to guess those 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:17.560 were some dark days at at the s O offices. 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:22.000 So so yeah, you know, uh, most of us at 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:23.680 PISO at that point in time, we're kind of on 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:26.960 vacation and we kind of just filed it away and 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:29.360 we're like, okay, well it's a draft and they're just talking. 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:32.360 So um, you know, we get to back, you know, 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:34.640 from our break and it's the beginning of the year 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:38.200 and this is now January five is when a bombshell 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:43.520 article drops on Gizmoto by CODEGA and they really laid 0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:48.360 out kind of what was in this proposed license, apparently 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:52.480 having had portions of it linked to them, and um, 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:57.800 you know it confirmed a margin, but maybe only for 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:01.960 for kickstarters, which then got confer earned by someone at 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:07.800 kickstarter on Twitter. Um and it also included a bit 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:11.360 in there that there was a clause that said watsy 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:15.520 could listen to the coast could use any of the 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:20.120 content you create under the license for free, never having 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:22.840 to make pay royalties to you, never having to give 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:25.960 you any credit. They could just take your work. Um 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:28.200 And and they phrased it in such a way that 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:30.880 it sounded like it was, you know, well, just in 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:33.280 case we make something similar, we don't want to get sued. 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:36.200 But yeah, and we're talking about just to clarify it 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:39.680 for people. We're not talking about like if you introduce mechanics, 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:41.880 because again that that's not what this is covered. We're 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:44.560 talking about if you create characters, if you create if 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:47.760 you build stories, they have a right to utilize that 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:52.960 story that you've made things that are actually copyrightable, right, Stories, 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:57.320 ideas and expressions are copyrightable. Um uh, you know, but 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:02.440 rules aren't. So that that drops on the fifth and 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:07.040 on the night the full draft document leaks and you've 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:12.240 got streamers and influencers reading it live on YouTube, and 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:15.520 this thing just starts to snowball. Um and from the 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:20.160 ninth forward things start moving very quickly. Um. On the tenth, 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:23.320 a number of major kind of third party publishers, these 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:26.000 are folks who print with the O jail announced that 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:28.840 they were not going to go with that, and one 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:31.280 of the largest ones, you know, announced, yeah, I'm not 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:33.280 doing that at all. I'm going to create my entire 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:36.720 brand new game. I'm leaving all of this behind. And 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:40.440 the further on social media turned into basically a firestorm. 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:45.920 Um it It's real sign of how how much more 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:50.680 how many people both love and play versions of this 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:54.359 game that there was so much media attention from like 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:57.639 major media organs like this. This was not just you know, 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:01.080 those of us who are into gaming, um, you know, 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:03.520 freaking out over this change the Wizards of the Coast 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:05.600 has made. This was like, I mean, I was seeing 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:09.280 it everywhere. Very few things have like broken as widely 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:13.040 in my media in ecosystem as as this. There was 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:18.200 an article, there was a story about it today on NPR. UM, 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:20.800 so there was another one. There was one other important 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:23.400 aspect in the league, um that I think is really important. 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:25.720 One is that the new o g L could be 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:30.800 canceled at any time with thirty days notice. And they 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:35.399 were climbing that they were de authorizing the previous o 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:38.639 g L, which up to this point everyone kind of 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:43.359 assumed was irrevocable, right it had. It has clauses in 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:45.520 it that say, if we ever put on a new 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:49.119 version of this license, you can ignore it and continue 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:52.200 to use this one. Right, but it uses this word 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:54.480 in there that says you can continue to use any 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:58.200 authorized version of the license, never minding that the contract 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:01.720 doesn't mention how you might d authorize a license. Um. 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:06.000 So there there this draft of the o g L 0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:09.080 says that they're de authorizing the previous version, which puts 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:11.960 all of the work of the past twenty years into doubt. 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:15.200 And at this point in time, the fans are revolting 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:18.159 right there. There are a lot of folks canceling their 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:20.520 subscriptions to D and D Beyond, which is kind of 0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:24.879 there in house character generation tools that you pay a 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:28.880 monthly subscription for. Um. And things really start spinning out 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:30.680 of hand to the point where D and D actually 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:35.520 has to respond to it and pulled back UM and 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:38.040 kind of retreat from this and saying Hey, we're gonna 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:42.040 answer your questions. What you saw was just a draft um, 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:45.879 you know, and uh that was never supposed to leak um. 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:47.639 But it was at this point in time that we 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:52.679 actually launched our own license. We had been talking to 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:54.760 some of the other publishers and by that, I mean 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:58.639 we pizo uh to create a brand new safe harbor 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:00.760 for folks to publish on. Or now it's a it's 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:02.399 a it's not gonna be owned by us, It's going 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:04.199 to be owned by a law firm that actually drafted 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:07.040 the first o g L. But you started to see 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:10.320 this giant fork happening um where a lot of folks 0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:14.919 are just abandoning ship. And I mean, what do you 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:21.080 think this means? Because obviously Wizards has already announced a 0:20:21.160 --> 0:20:24.320 new version of the of the o g L beyond 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:26.719 like the one that got leaked, and I think are 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:29.520 kind of in damage control mode. Do you think this 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:32.800 is something that like there is any way for them 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:34.960 to pull back from or do you think that kind 0:20:34.960 --> 0:20:37.840 of the inherent instability of the o g L now 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:39.359 that they're kind of making these claims at while we 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:41.879 can actually change the deal anytime we want, has that 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:47.320 sort of irreficably altered the ground. I think that they've 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:51.520 damaged a lot of people's trust in them, right, I 0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:54.240 think over over the past few weeks, especially when they 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:58.679 went silent and then frankly the first retraction was really 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:02.440 kind of awkward and filled with kind of like, well, 0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:05.000 we didn't lose, we won. This was great. Now we 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:07.159 learned how to make a better license. Right, they're clearly 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:10.240 stepping back, stepping back, stepping back, And their most recent 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:13.640 step back, which just happened, you know, on the eighteenth, 0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:17.600 so you know, a week ago or so, basically said 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:20.280 that they were going to release the core of the 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:24.360 game to Creative Commons and their new license was going 0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:27.600 to be irrevocable and last forever. But it still contains 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:30.960 a lot of kind of poison pills, things like we 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:34.200 are still the authorizing the first version of the license, 0:21:34.480 --> 0:21:38.240 and we have this morality clause that says if we 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:41.360 find your content offensive, we can just kill your license 0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:46.800 without Yeah, which is fucked up, because I mean, I 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:49.320 don't think I need to explain why that's fucked up. Um, 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:51.520 that that puts that puts a lot of the most 0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:55.120 creative kind of projects to at risk, Like that I God, 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:58.479 that's that's ugly. I mean, I don't think anybody in 0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:02.960 this industry wants to see any deeply offensive, problematic content. Um, 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:05.040 But there's a lot of stuff that is, frankly, a 0:22:05.040 --> 0:22:08.399 lot more marginal and explorer, you know, issues of the 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:11.920 human condition that folks might want to explore in a game. 0:22:12.040 --> 0:22:16.000 And who's to say that someone at Wizards might go, well, sorry, 0:22:16.080 --> 0:22:18.959 that's offensive to me. You don't get to make it. Um. 0:22:18.960 --> 0:22:22.800 I don't think anybody wants to invest their creativity and 0:22:22.920 --> 0:22:26.639 risk their business on what someone they will never have 0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:30.159 met thinks of their work. Yeah. The problem is not that, 0:22:30.240 --> 0:22:33.320 like I want as the most defensive role playing games 0:22:33.320 --> 0:22:35.120 I can get. The problem is like, well, who determines 0:22:35.160 --> 0:22:38.320 what offensive is? And it's a bunch of lawyers in 0:22:38.359 --> 0:22:41.800 business minute Wizards of the Coast. At least that's the worry, right, 0:22:41.960 --> 0:22:44.800 Like not necessarily that that's how it would work out, 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:48.000 but you just you get no guarantee. And this stuff, 0:22:48.040 --> 0:22:50.439 this stuff evolves over time, right, you know what what 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:53.520 is fine today maybe problematic tomorrow. We learned those things 0:22:53.560 --> 0:22:55.800 and we evolved from them and we change. But I 0:22:55.840 --> 0:22:59.200 don't think anybody wants to have kind of the this 0:22:59.480 --> 0:23:02.639 you know, acts hanging over our head of like, well, sorry, 0:23:02.720 --> 0:23:07.240 that's now offensive, So we're going to kill the entire license. Yeah, 0:23:07.400 --> 0:23:10.439 so where are we? Where are we now? Like it 0:23:10.480 --> 0:23:13.680 looks like Piezo Yawler are moving forward with the O 0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:16.320 r C along with a number of other people. Can 0:23:16.359 --> 0:23:18.159 you give me any of what that's going to look like? 0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:20.679 Because one of the things that that does concern me 0:23:20.800 --> 0:23:23.720 is um and this is a very selfish concern, but 0:23:23.800 --> 0:23:26.880 like I grew very comfortable with, you know, three point five, 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:31.720 which is essentially the machinery that underpins Pathfinder and UM 0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:33.280 It's one of those things like if I didn't play 0:23:33.320 --> 0:23:35.480 again for twenty years, I could probably sit down with 0:23:35.520 --> 0:23:37.520 the material in my head and run a campaign just 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:40.280 because so much of that stuff is burned into my brain. 0:23:40.720 --> 0:23:44.520 Are we like, what is the mechanics kind of underlying 0:23:44.520 --> 0:23:45.800 the O r C and how is it going to 0:23:45.840 --> 0:23:48.800 be different from what we've we've gotten used to. So 0:23:48.840 --> 0:23:51.360 I'll say this, We're we're in the very early days, yes, 0:23:51.440 --> 0:23:55.159 And what what's happening right now is we are you know, 0:23:55.320 --> 0:23:58.840 in coordination with a number of other publishers working with 0:23:58.880 --> 0:24:01.320 a Zoro law and are the people who wrote the 0:24:01.359 --> 0:24:04.399 original o g l uh and had, you know, fully 0:24:04.400 --> 0:24:06.920 intended for it to be a perpetual license, and we're 0:24:06.920 --> 0:24:10.360 working with them to to create kind of a rules 0:24:10.480 --> 0:24:15.199 neutral license that the entire game industry can use to 0:24:15.320 --> 0:24:18.200 share work, because there's there's like a lot of nuance 0:24:18.280 --> 0:24:20.880 that was in the o g l that allowed different 0:24:20.920 --> 0:24:24.399 companies to share creative work together, and a lot of 0:24:24.440 --> 0:24:26.560 companies used it as kind of a bridging license, even 0:24:26.560 --> 0:24:29.040 if they weren't using Dungeons and Dragons at all, they 0:24:29.080 --> 0:24:31.000 would just use the license as a framework to kind 0:24:31.040 --> 0:24:33.639 of exchange ideas. And that's what we want the ORC 0:24:33.680 --> 0:24:36.359 to be. The ORC needs to be a license that 0:24:36.400 --> 0:24:39.800 allows everybody in the game industry to open up their 0:24:39.840 --> 0:24:43.000 content and share work with each other and iterate and 0:24:43.080 --> 0:24:47.679 expand and grow. That's our real goal, um And ultimately 0:24:48.320 --> 0:24:50.600 we are not going to own it. No one's going 0:24:50.640 --> 0:24:52.280 to own it. We're actually going to try and find 0:24:52.280 --> 0:24:55.159 it onprofit to administer the license going forward so that 0:24:55.200 --> 0:24:58.040 we don't ever have to worry about this again. Nobody 0:24:58.080 --> 0:24:59.919 wants to go through what we've been going through for 0:25:00.000 --> 0:25:02.680 the past three weeks, so that's kind of that's kind 0:25:02.680 --> 0:25:04.600 of one half of it. The other half is what 0:25:04.720 --> 0:25:08.439 happens to Pathfinder UM. And obviously, you know, when it 0:25:08.480 --> 0:25:12.119 came to path Finder second Edition, we rewrote the game 0:25:12.200 --> 0:25:16.680 from scratch and it is now fully our game. It's 0:25:16.680 --> 0:25:19.880 something we own and we control UM. So we feel 0:25:19.880 --> 0:25:21.680 pretty confident that we're just going to keep on rolling 0:25:21.880 --> 0:25:25.880 with with Pathfinder. And ultimately, you know, we don't actually 0:25:25.960 --> 0:25:28.440 believe that the previous version of the O g l 0:25:28.520 --> 0:25:32.280 even can be rescinded, So I guess we'll see how 0:25:32.280 --> 0:25:35.920 that plays out. I can see this having an overall 0:25:36.000 --> 0:25:41.639 positive outcome, just in that if we get this new 0:25:41.760 --> 0:25:46.320 kind of thing that creators can use UM as a 0:25:46.359 --> 0:25:48.399 as a core point to branch off from when they 0:25:48.440 --> 0:25:51.960 are when they're making games that's actually under solid legal 0:25:52.000 --> 0:25:54.760 footing that isn't kind of reliant upon the whims of 0:25:54.760 --> 0:25:58.560 a publicly traded company, then in the long term, you know, 0:25:58.880 --> 0:26:01.399 that is in the long term, it's it's it's it's 0:26:01.480 --> 0:26:04.080 better for creators because it's more like the way things 0:26:04.119 --> 0:26:06.200 were for the first twenty years of the O g 0:26:06.480 --> 0:26:10.639 l UM. Do you I mean, like, what do you 0:26:10.640 --> 0:26:12.720 see as kind of some pitfalls and sort of trying 0:26:12.760 --> 0:26:16.480 to trying to make this this happened, trying to move 0:26:16.520 --> 0:26:19.520 things in this kind of more productive direction. Well, I 0:26:19.560 --> 0:26:22.080 think you can always you know, kind of fracture, you know, 0:26:22.119 --> 0:26:26.040 balkanize the market to the point where where everybody has 0:26:26.080 --> 0:26:29.080 such a small slice event that you know, no one 0:26:29.160 --> 0:26:31.679 can really get the kind of numbers they need to 0:26:31.720 --> 0:26:34.320 succeed because you're You're right, it is. It is a 0:26:34.320 --> 0:26:37.879 pretty small industry. The margin on you know, printed media 0:26:38.359 --> 0:26:41.680 isn't exactly great. But I think a lot of these 0:26:41.720 --> 0:26:44.520 companies do have the numbers to survive. But I think 0:26:44.600 --> 0:26:47.760 that right now everybody's trying to figure out how to 0:26:47.960 --> 0:26:52.840 replace parts of what has just been lost. Um. Everybody's 0:26:52.880 --> 0:26:55.240 trying to kind of go in their different directions right now. 0:26:55.280 --> 0:26:56.600 And some of that is going to be really good, 0:26:56.640 --> 0:26:58.160 because I think we're gonna get a lot of really 0:26:58.160 --> 0:27:01.439 great games, um, and I'm excited to see him, um. 0:27:01.680 --> 0:27:03.679 But I do think that I think one of the 0:27:03.680 --> 0:27:06.240 worries just for the industry is that they kind of 0:27:06.240 --> 0:27:08.720 all had one flag they were rallying around, and now 0:27:08.760 --> 0:27:12.919 everyone's running in different directions and hoping that after all 0:27:12.960 --> 0:27:15.800 of this shakes out, everybody has kind of enough gamers 0:27:15.800 --> 0:27:18.560 to support a community. I think it's gonna work out. 0:27:18.680 --> 0:27:21.920 I think that there's a number of standouts happening already. 0:27:22.040 --> 0:27:24.520 Um you know, M C, d M and Cobald are 0:27:24.640 --> 0:27:27.560 obviously racing to do things. There's a bunch of kind 0:27:27.600 --> 0:27:33.240 of known players in the industry, US, Cobalt, Chaos, Um, Green, Ronan, 0:27:33.600 --> 0:27:36.760 all of them are pretty big companies position to kind 0:27:36.800 --> 0:27:40.400 of have good player bases with great games and mechanics 0:27:40.480 --> 0:27:43.520 underneath them. So I I think the big loser here 0:27:43.960 --> 0:27:47.560 is frankly, of the coast. They you know, up up 0:27:47.640 --> 0:27:49.720 until you know, the end of this year or the 0:27:50.080 --> 0:27:55.320 end of last year, they were undisputedly the largest game 0:27:55.359 --> 0:27:58.160 company in the entire table top role playing game industry, 0:27:58.160 --> 0:28:00.480 and that's still true today. But there's a lot of 0:28:00.480 --> 0:28:02.359 cracks in that armor, and it does make me wonder 0:28:02.400 --> 0:28:05.120 how it's going to fracture out over time, and how 0:28:05.119 --> 0:28:08.640 many of their fans, many of which never heard of Pathfinder, 0:28:08.920 --> 0:28:12.040 never heard of you know, these other game companies call 0:28:12.080 --> 0:28:15.760 of Cthulo and stuff, are now suddenly exploring these games. 0:28:15.800 --> 0:28:19.360 And you know, frankly, the wealth of smaller Indian zin 0:28:19.440 --> 0:28:21.440 games that are out there, there's so much to play 0:28:21.560 --> 0:28:24.280 right now, and watsy has just told their fan base, hey, 0:28:24.320 --> 0:28:28.400 go check it out. It's interesting because it it kind 0:28:28.400 --> 0:28:31.120 of speaks to something that I've I've always loved and 0:28:31.280 --> 0:28:37.960 also found kind of sociologically fascinating about table top gaming, 0:28:38.040 --> 0:28:40.280 which is you just brought up call Off Cthulhu, which 0:28:40.320 --> 0:28:42.840 is a game that is I don't believe is under 0:28:42.840 --> 0:28:45.920 the control of the original company that it was made under. 0:28:46.120 --> 0:28:48.400 People have been playing versions of Calliff Cthuloo for a 0:28:48.480 --> 0:28:51.960 very long time. Jngeans and Dragons has gone through multiple owners. 0:28:52.400 --> 0:28:54.640 Shadow Run, which I played a lot of as a kid, 0:28:54.640 --> 0:28:58.200 has gone through multiple owners, and the rules sets change 0:28:58.320 --> 0:29:01.520 in the company that is profit from the official licensed 0:29:01.600 --> 0:29:05.640 material changes. But no matter what happens, even when those 0:29:05.640 --> 0:29:10.320 companies go wonder the games keep going. And that's there's 0:29:10.360 --> 0:29:13.000 something I think unique there that is, it's not the 0:29:13.040 --> 0:29:15.680 case even like um, you know, there's versions of it 0:29:15.720 --> 0:29:18.400 that happens in in PC gaming. But there's also this 0:29:18.480 --> 0:29:21.480 thing that happens that that a lot of gamers I 0:29:21.520 --> 0:29:24.959 know complain about, which is that like periodically, shit will 0:29:25.000 --> 0:29:27.440 get removed for whatever reason a company goes under a 0:29:27.440 --> 0:29:29.600 game is not supported and that game is just gone. 0:29:29.600 --> 0:29:33.240 That little piece of culture has just gone. And it 0:29:33.400 --> 0:29:36.720 seems like so far. I'm not gonna say in every case, 0:29:36.720 --> 0:29:39.320 because obviously there have been games that have have you know, 0:29:39.560 --> 0:29:42.920 people stopped playing and stuff in the tabletop space, but 0:29:43.720 --> 0:29:47.200 it's there's this continuity, you know, even in the face 0:29:47.280 --> 0:29:49.800 of of changing of the guards in terms of like 0:29:49.840 --> 0:29:54.600 what companies are successful, um of like people keep playing 0:29:55.600 --> 0:29:58.760 these the same games and iterating them and changing them, 0:29:58.800 --> 0:30:00.480 and um, I don't know. That's that always one of 0:30:00.480 --> 0:30:06.160 the things I found most inspiring about the way tabletop works. Yeah, 0:30:06.200 --> 0:30:09.640 I mean, I do think the legacy of tabletop role 0:30:09.640 --> 0:30:12.680 playing games is one of cooperation. It was there from 0:30:12.720 --> 0:30:16.320 the start, right, you know, the moment Gary and is 0:30:16.680 --> 0:30:19.080 Uh and Dave and folks you know got together and 0:30:19.120 --> 0:30:23.040 started turning their you know, miniatures war game and giving 0:30:23.120 --> 0:30:25.960 characters to them, and everyone started building a story together. 0:30:26.440 --> 0:30:30.600 That spark was the start, and it's carried through in 0:30:31.080 --> 0:30:33.400 a million different ways and a million different tables. And 0:30:33.440 --> 0:30:36.920 even if you know, the companies go under or disappear, 0:30:37.360 --> 0:30:39.680 people with those books are still playing those games. There's 0:30:39.760 --> 0:30:42.560 plenty of people still playing a D and D first edition, right, 0:30:42.560 --> 0:30:45.040 you know they never left and they're fine with that, 0:30:45.360 --> 0:30:49.560 and and I salute them. Yeah, I think about and again, 0:30:49.600 --> 0:30:51.600 this is like one of the reasons this has such 0:30:51.640 --> 0:30:54.000 a place in my heart. I I started playing a 0:30:54.080 --> 0:30:56.840 D and D. But you know, it was my friends 0:30:56.840 --> 0:30:59.120 and I would play at a at cub Scout camp outs, 0:30:59.120 --> 0:31:01.720 and we didn't have acts us two dice, so we 0:31:01.720 --> 0:31:03.960 we had the rule books. We had like the Monster's 0:31:04.040 --> 0:31:06.080 Manual in the Player's Guide, and we use those as 0:31:06.160 --> 0:31:08.440 jumping off points, and we would bring like a bunch 0:31:08.440 --> 0:31:10.840 of nickels and we would we would figure out way 0:31:10.840 --> 0:31:13.080 it's like, okay, for this action, you've gotta get three 0:31:13.120 --> 0:31:15.280 heads out of five flips or something like that, and 0:31:15.320 --> 0:31:17.840 that's a success in this And like so many people 0:31:17.880 --> 0:31:21.000 have stories like that, have variants of that, because it 0:31:21.400 --> 0:31:24.840 really is fundamentally what you need for any of these games, 0:31:24.840 --> 0:31:28.080 which is what makes them so durable, is a group 0:31:28.080 --> 0:31:30.000 of people to want to sit around a table and 0:31:30.040 --> 0:31:34.600 tell a story together, which is rad. Yeah, I mean 0:31:34.600 --> 0:31:37.560 there's nothing else like it, right there, really isn't it. 0:31:37.600 --> 0:31:40.600 And that's why I think you're seeing so much fervor 0:31:40.600 --> 0:31:43.120 over this because for a lot of people, this is 0:31:43.240 --> 0:31:47.520 very deeply personal gathering together with your friends and telling 0:31:47.520 --> 0:31:50.240 a story together. That's something you and your friends built. 0:31:50.840 --> 0:31:53.800 And you know, uh, if you happen to find a 0:31:53.840 --> 0:31:56.440 way to make some money off of it, great, that's 0:31:56.520 --> 0:31:59.920 that's your creativity coming to life. And frankly, kind of 0:32:00.080 --> 0:32:02.360 having a big giant corporation come in and say, hey, 0:32:02.360 --> 0:32:07.120 where's my cut is not really very fun. No, uh, 0:32:07.160 --> 0:32:10.160 And I my heart goes out to to to you 0:32:10.240 --> 0:32:13.760 and your colleagues over how stressful this last three or 0:32:13.800 --> 0:32:16.840 four weeks has been. And I hope that we're past 0:32:16.880 --> 0:32:20.120 the worst of it. Um. It certainly seems like some 0:32:20.320 --> 0:32:22.040 what's going to come out of this is going to 0:32:22.080 --> 0:32:24.920 be pretty exciting, So I'm hopeful. Uh, And it sounds 0:32:24.920 --> 0:32:28.200 like you're hopeful. Yeah, I think you know. Over the 0:32:28.240 --> 0:32:29.920 past couple of weeks there's been a lot of sleepless 0:32:30.000 --> 0:32:33.600 nights and a lot of egency meetings. But frankly, I 0:32:33.680 --> 0:32:37.440 feel more excited and energized about the future of Pizo, 0:32:37.560 --> 0:32:40.320 about the future of gaming, than I have in quite 0:32:40.320 --> 0:32:43.400 a long time. So by Piso's games, pick up some 0:32:43.440 --> 0:32:47.440 Pathfinder books, go to your go to your nearest game store, um, 0:32:47.920 --> 0:32:51.479 and and pick one up or two or three, Um, Jason, 0:32:52.000 --> 0:32:56.560 anything else you want up plug at the end here. Uh. Yeah, 0:32:56.640 --> 0:32:58.560 you can learn more about Pieso in our games, so 0:32:58.680 --> 0:33:01.600 that would be Pathfinder and star Finder Ato dot com. 0:33:01.640 --> 0:33:04.560 We have a blog they're talking about the Orc and 0:33:04.560 --> 0:33:06.920 we'll undoubtedly have more to say about it here in 0:33:06.960 --> 0:33:09.640 the coming weeks. Uh. As for me, you can find 0:33:09.640 --> 0:33:12.120 me on all the very social media platforms at backslash 0:33:12.240 --> 0:33:16.400 Jason Bowman bu well m A h N. Thank you Jason, 0:33:17.200 --> 0:33:20.320 both for sitting down for this interview and for all 0:33:20.400 --> 0:33:23.080 of all of the many, many countless hours I have 0:33:23.160 --> 0:33:25.160 spent playing games that you had a hand in making. 0:33:25.880 --> 0:33:27.640 Thank you. Robert. We'll have to get together and roll 0:33:27.680 --> 0:33:30.880 some dice together soon. I would love that. All right, everybody, 0:33:30.920 --> 0:33:49.080 that's a sod uh see you tomorrow, Hi, and welcome 0:33:49.120 --> 0:33:52.360 to it could happen here a podcast which today is 0:33:52.480 --> 0:33:55.440 only me and my guest Nicole, and today we're gonna 0:33:55.440 --> 0:33:58.600 be talking a little bit about immigration, about immigration policy 0:33:59.040 --> 0:34:01.640 over the last three or four years, and about some 0:34:01.720 --> 0:34:05.400 of the strange laws that impacted. So Nicole is joining me. 0:34:05.920 --> 0:34:09.239 She works for Alotto Lado, and Nicole would likely tochose 0:34:09.280 --> 0:34:11.799 herself explain a little bit about what you do. Hi, 0:34:11.840 --> 0:34:14.880 my name is Nicole Elizabeth Ramos and I am the 0:34:14.920 --> 0:34:18.280 director of Alto Lavos Order Rights Project, which is based 0:34:18.320 --> 0:34:22.600 in Tijuana, Mexico. Great, okay, So I think prehaps to 0:34:22.640 --> 0:34:24.799 start off with you could clear people in on a 0:34:24.840 --> 0:34:26.960 little bit of what you guys do, because you do 0:34:27.040 --> 0:34:30.960 some incredible work and it's very, very valuable to board 0:34:31.000 --> 0:34:33.480 the communities, and I think a lot of people, if 0:34:33.520 --> 0:34:36.520 they don't live in along the boarder, might not be 0:34:36.560 --> 0:34:40.920 familiar with it. At Lado, we provide legal orientation to 0:34:41.440 --> 0:34:46.120 migrants that are considering seeking asylum in the US. We 0:34:46.160 --> 0:34:50.080 started off as a project that focused locally on migrants 0:34:50.120 --> 0:34:54.719 in Tijuana, and over the years we have expanded to 0:34:55.280 --> 0:34:59.520 serve migrants in Mexicali and then remotely in other cities 0:34:59.560 --> 0:35:04.319 along the US Mexico border, including Grenosa, Matamoro, Squads, pieg 0:35:06.080 --> 0:35:10.600 Uh And in this legal orientation, we're providing information about 0:35:10.640 --> 0:35:14.120 what are the current policies at the moment that will 0:35:14.200 --> 0:35:17.520 impact their ability to seek asylum in the US or 0:35:17.680 --> 0:35:22.200 prevent them from doing so, or how these policies might 0:35:22.320 --> 0:35:26.800 be impacting their family composition. So policies that are related 0:35:26.840 --> 0:35:32.239 to detention or family separation. After we provide legal orientation, 0:35:32.440 --> 0:35:37.200 we are then identifying asylum seekers that fall into several 0:35:37.320 --> 0:35:42.680 vulnerability categories to provide additional accompaniment through this process. Because 0:35:42.840 --> 0:35:46.680 the policies are shifting and changing and becoming more restrictive 0:35:47.680 --> 0:35:53.000 over time, it's very confusing and cumbersome to we throw 0:35:53.520 --> 0:35:56.799 all of the fuzz and figure out what you need 0:35:56.840 --> 0:35:58.560 to do in order to seek asylum in the US. 0:35:58.680 --> 0:36:01.160 So that's where we come in and we provide the 0:36:01.200 --> 0:36:05.720 orientation in multiple languages. The border is a very diverse place. 0:36:06.320 --> 0:36:09.320 Is not just Spanish speakers that are coming, but people 0:36:09.400 --> 0:36:16.440 that speak Ation, Creole, French, Farsi, indigenous languages, Russian, Ukrainian, Turkish, 0:36:17.360 --> 0:36:20.520 um and all of these people need access to information. 0:36:20.560 --> 0:36:22.640 That's one of the pillars of our program is that 0:36:23.160 --> 0:36:27.600 migrants have the absolute right to accurate legal information about 0:36:27.680 --> 0:36:31.880 the process that they will be entering. Among the asylum 0:36:31.920 --> 0:36:34.560 teachers that we work with, we also identify those that 0:36:34.640 --> 0:36:38.640 our need of shelter and make referrals and coroplated shelters 0:36:38.920 --> 0:36:44.360 for medical care. In some instances, we assist with obtaining 0:36:44.440 --> 0:36:48.000 medications or obtaining a needed surgery. If the migrant is 0:36:48.080 --> 0:36:52.240 not have access to those resources helping them obtain access 0:36:52.280 --> 0:36:58.560 to HIV medication or hormone treatment. And of those migrants, 0:36:59.600 --> 0:37:03.040 we are also connecting them with other supportive services from 0:37:03.120 --> 0:37:07.000 our partners UM that have shelters, that have programs where 0:37:07.160 --> 0:37:11.000 they're giving them basic dispenses of food because they are 0:37:11.040 --> 0:37:14.799 struggling with food and security, trying to create as much 0:37:14.840 --> 0:37:19.880 of a social safety net as possible because UH folks 0:37:19.960 --> 0:37:23.240 are waiting at the border for longer and longer periods 0:37:23.280 --> 0:37:25.640 of time. The border used to be a place that 0:37:25.760 --> 0:37:28.160 people passed through, maybe they were here for a few 0:37:28.239 --> 0:37:32.040 days before ultimately they were able to present them at 0:37:32.120 --> 0:37:34.719 a present themselves at a US port of entry UM 0:37:34.800 --> 0:37:38.280 to a US official and enter the asylum process. However, 0:37:38.600 --> 0:37:40.880 now we have individuals that have been waiting at the 0:37:40.960 --> 0:37:45.160 border for years, who may not have work status in Mexico, 0:37:45.760 --> 0:37:48.840 may not be Spanish speakers, and are really struggling to 0:37:48.920 --> 0:37:51.880 meet their basic needs. And so we've had to expand 0:37:51.920 --> 0:37:54.880 our services from not just legal service provider, provider of 0:37:54.960 --> 0:37:59.640 legal information, but also providing humanitarian aid so that people 0:37:59.719 --> 0:38:04.719 can be healthy and as well as possible UM while 0:38:04.719 --> 0:38:08.319 they're waiting yeah, and it's it's incredibly valuable, and it's 0:38:08.320 --> 0:38:11.480 it's amazing how you guys can continue to step up 0:38:11.520 --> 0:38:15.080 and scale up as the federal government has continued to 0:38:15.160 --> 0:38:18.799 fail people. Um. And I think if people haven't come 0:38:18.840 --> 0:38:20.400 to the border, they probably won't be aware of, like 0:38:20.480 --> 0:38:24.480 you say, that diversity of people who come to the 0:38:24.600 --> 0:38:27.560 US Mexico boarder. Like I remember a couple of years ago, 0:38:27.680 --> 0:38:30.120 I was working within a Romo translator and we were 0:38:30.160 --> 0:38:32.799 speaking to people who would come from Ethiopia, people come 0:38:32.840 --> 0:38:35.480 from Eritrea. It's a it's a very of course, people 0:38:35.520 --> 0:38:39.200 coming from Ukraine. Now, it's very diverse space, which is 0:38:39.280 --> 0:38:43.440 something that kind of gets collapsed pretty often in border reporting. 0:38:43.520 --> 0:38:45.800 I think like all that diversity gets collapsed into like 0:38:45.960 --> 0:38:48.719 like just people are lump together as migrants for people 0:38:48.760 --> 0:38:53.759 seeking asylum. And that's a shame because it's what makes 0:38:54.080 --> 0:38:56.120 part of what makes us so complicated, but also what 0:38:56.239 --> 0:38:59.680 makes these border places such kind of interesting and special places. 0:39:00.160 --> 0:39:02.520 And and I like what you said about all the 0:39:02.719 --> 0:39:05.320 sort of services that are provided as well. It's incredible 0:39:05.440 --> 0:39:10.080 to look at how these services are provided by huge 0:39:10.280 --> 0:39:14.320 broad network of like volunteers of nonprofit of of NGOs 0:39:14.320 --> 0:39:17.920 as well as some government agencies, and how people have 0:39:18.000 --> 0:39:22.480 stepped up consistently, especially in the last I guess six seven. 0:39:23.560 --> 0:39:25.520 It did seem such a long time. It's just like 0:39:27.480 --> 0:39:29.680 how people have stepped up to help each other along 0:39:29.760 --> 0:39:32.120 the border. So perhaps if we go back, you and 0:39:32.200 --> 0:39:33.920 I we're just talking before we started. If we go 0:39:34.080 --> 0:39:37.880 back to eighteen, which people may or may not remember, 0:39:38.000 --> 0:39:40.880 was the mid term, in the middle of Donald Trump's presidency, 0:39:41.840 --> 0:39:45.799 and a large caravan of people, a group of people 0:39:46.040 --> 0:39:49.760 that particularly larger, remarkable eardy, a group of people arrived 0:39:49.760 --> 0:39:51.600 at the border and became kind of the center of 0:39:51.719 --> 0:39:56.759 something of like a and they became I think their 0:39:56.880 --> 0:40:00.400 their arrival was used by both political parties part of 0:40:00.440 --> 0:40:04.160 this at midterm messaging, and and I think that was 0:40:04.400 --> 0:40:06.800 maybe for some people, especially if if they're younger and 0:40:06.880 --> 0:40:08.840 had been watching their news, the sort of first introduction 0:40:08.880 --> 0:40:12.800 to the asylum process. So can you explain kind of 0:40:12.920 --> 0:40:17.320 how asylum is supposed to happen, and then maybe we 0:40:17.400 --> 0:40:19.759 can get into some of the weird and bizarre things 0:40:19.800 --> 0:40:21.399 that have been happening to it in the past three 0:40:21.480 --> 0:40:26.280 or four years. Asylum is supposed to be a system 0:40:26.360 --> 0:40:32.000 that's managed first by by government authorities UM under Title eight, 0:40:32.120 --> 0:40:37.080 section twelve five of the United States Code, US immigration 0:40:37.160 --> 0:40:41.719 officer at port of entry UM or at any point 0:40:41.760 --> 0:40:44.799 in between ports of entries such as border patrol, when 0:40:44.840 --> 0:40:49.440 they are presented with a person that expresses that they 0:40:49.440 --> 0:40:51.480 have a fear of return to their home country, that 0:40:51.560 --> 0:40:56.200 they fear of persecution, to refer them along the track 0:40:56.320 --> 0:40:58.879 to be processed as an asylum seeker. Now, that can 0:40:59.000 --> 0:41:03.040 mean that that person is still detained for the entirety 0:41:03.120 --> 0:41:06.080 of their asylum case and sent to an immigration detention center. 0:41:06.600 --> 0:41:09.480 That could also mean that that person is given court 0:41:09.560 --> 0:41:12.919 paperwork to show up an immigration court at a later 0:41:13.080 --> 0:41:18.160 date to begin the process of explaining their case to 0:41:18.560 --> 0:41:23.040 the immigration court and getting a final decision UM. Over 0:41:23.160 --> 0:41:26.759 the years, beginning at the end of the Obama administration, 0:41:26.960 --> 0:41:31.440 continuing through the Trump administration, and also continuing even now 0:41:31.560 --> 0:41:35.359 into the Biden administration, we have seen policies issued by 0:41:35.520 --> 0:41:40.040 CDP which restrict access to the port of entry for 0:41:40.960 --> 0:41:46.720 asilent seekers UM. Initially, it started out in two thousand 0:41:46.760 --> 0:41:50.080 and sixteen, where the Obama administration came up with a 0:41:50.760 --> 0:41:54.480 policy called the Metering Policy, which was known as the waitlist, 0:41:54.960 --> 0:41:59.200 which required at first only Haitian asylum seekers to put 0:41:59.239 --> 0:42:02.319 their name on a wait list with Mexican immigration authorities 0:42:02.880 --> 0:42:05.960 and then they would be called in groups um to 0:42:06.200 --> 0:42:08.759 enter the US. And that was in response to the 0:42:08.840 --> 0:42:12.320 exodus of immigrants that we saw coming from Haiti and 0:42:12.360 --> 0:42:16.080 through Brazil in two thousand and sixteen. The metering list 0:42:16.239 --> 0:42:21.640 was later expanded to apply to all nationalities, including Mexican 0:42:22.080 --> 0:42:26.040 migrants that were trying to flee their own country, including 0:42:26.120 --> 0:42:30.640 those that had legitimate claims for protection being persecuted by 0:42:30.719 --> 0:42:33.640 members of their own government. Everyone had to still get 0:42:33.680 --> 0:42:38.760 on this list. That policy was extended in an ideological 0:42:39.120 --> 0:42:42.240 framework when the Trump administration came up with a program 0:42:42.360 --> 0:42:46.040 known as Remain in Mexico and just building upon that 0:42:46.160 --> 0:42:50.000 idea that it is okay to make asylum seekers wait 0:42:50.400 --> 0:42:53.680 in territory in which they fear persecution because a lot 0:42:53.719 --> 0:42:58.160 of people here persecution in Mexico UM, and under the 0:42:58.560 --> 0:43:01.600 Remain in Mexico policy so known as the Migrant Protection 0:43:01.680 --> 0:43:05.920 Protocols m p P. They we always refer to it 0:43:05.920 --> 0:43:10.120 as the Migrant Persecution Protocols because it feels it's extremely 0:43:10.160 --> 0:43:12.000 all WELLI in right, like people like to use a 0:43:12.080 --> 0:43:16.080 welly and wrong, but that that one that went prett. Yeah, 0:43:16.600 --> 0:43:21.880 this program required asylum seekers that were entered. They were 0:43:21.960 --> 0:43:26.000 placed into a program called MPP. They were given court 0:43:26.120 --> 0:43:28.480 date and people were to appear at court in their 0:43:28.560 --> 0:43:31.759 nearest border city where there was an immigration court at 0:43:31.920 --> 0:43:34.000 some date in the future. It could be a few weeks, 0:43:34.080 --> 0:43:36.120 it could be several months, it could be a year. 0:43:36.880 --> 0:43:40.280 And in between their court hearings, they would be required 0:43:40.360 --> 0:43:42.480 to remain in Mexico. They could only go to the 0:43:42.520 --> 0:43:44.120 court of entry on their date of their court They 0:43:44.160 --> 0:43:46.759 would be transported to court and then transported back to 0:43:47.239 --> 0:43:51.120 Mexico after their court, leaving Mexico people in Mexico in 0:43:51.239 --> 0:43:56.880 limbo for years. And then when the pandemic came, we 0:43:57.680 --> 0:44:00.680 saw the border closed entirely. Under title for you to 0:44:01.880 --> 0:44:05.120 the Trump administration build it as necessary to protect the 0:44:05.200 --> 0:44:10.720 American public from migrants that could be carriers of COVID nineteen. 0:44:10.800 --> 0:44:14.000 But this is really, you know, no different than other 0:44:14.280 --> 0:44:18.040 immigration legislation that we've seen throughout history, which tends to 0:44:18.200 --> 0:44:22.400 paint immigrants as vectors of disease um and we need 0:44:22.440 --> 0:44:26.839 to just keep them out at all costs. And under 0:44:26.920 --> 0:44:30.280 Title for you to it's just a wall of policy. 0:44:31.000 --> 0:44:33.359 People tried to present themselves at the port of entry 0:44:33.480 --> 0:44:39.279 and they're turned away. People enter the US UH at 0:44:39.320 --> 0:44:42.040 different points that are not parts of entry without inspection 0:44:42.360 --> 0:44:46.720 UM and get caught and they're expelled immediately back to Mexico, 0:44:47.600 --> 0:44:51.160 or if it's not a country that Mexico will accept 0:44:51.200 --> 0:44:54.840 an expulsion, they could be detained in US custody and 0:44:54.960 --> 0:44:58.680 then expelled back to their country of origin without any 0:44:58.760 --> 0:45:03.879 opportunity to week with an asylum officer UM. Right now, 0:45:04.680 --> 0:45:07.840 we have been dealing with title for you two in 0:45:07.920 --> 0:45:12.399 a process where certain number of people are exempted from 0:45:12.480 --> 0:45:17.160 this blanket denial every day UH and different ports of 0:45:17.360 --> 0:45:22.239 entry along the border participate. Each part of entry has 0:45:22.280 --> 0:45:26.360 its own cap numerical cap UM. And initially, when this 0:45:26.480 --> 0:45:30.480 program started in May, the names of people that were 0:45:30.560 --> 0:45:34.480 being submitted as exemptions, the asylum seekers names were submitted 0:45:34.520 --> 0:45:41.720 by civil society organizations such as Ladoulo. Just this year alone, 0:45:41.840 --> 0:45:46.160 we've submitted around eleven thousand, five hundred I'm sorry, eleven 0:45:47.080 --> 0:45:51.480 exemption requests UM, and that was from individuals from twenty 0:45:51.560 --> 0:45:56.160 nine different countries speaking just over thirty different languages. So 0:45:57.480 --> 0:46:02.360 now though, the system has recently changed to a smartphone 0:46:02.400 --> 0:46:07.960 application known as c DP one, which requires migrants to 0:46:08.160 --> 0:46:11.200 download this application to their smartphone, assuming that they have 0:46:11.320 --> 0:46:16.880 a smartphone, and then complete this lengthy application UM that 0:46:17.719 --> 0:46:21.960 requires them to upload a photo UM for facial recognition 0:46:22.080 --> 0:46:27.640 software and wait for an appointment date to be made available. 0:46:27.680 --> 0:46:30.640 And they have to keep entering the fifth multiple times 0:46:31.320 --> 0:46:34.359 and until an appointment date becomes available, waking up every 0:46:34.400 --> 0:46:37.080 morning at five thirty for when the new slots are 0:46:37.080 --> 0:46:41.879 made available at six am. And the problem, among many 0:46:42.000 --> 0:46:44.200 problems with this application is that right now it's only 0:46:44.200 --> 0:46:47.600 available in Spanish and English, so if you speak any 0:46:47.680 --> 0:46:51.880 other language, are not able to access it UM And 0:46:53.040 --> 0:46:56.560 we have to give you an example. UM. We have 0:46:56.920 --> 0:47:00.160 an online survey where people register or try I to 0:47:00.200 --> 0:47:03.719 seek help from us. We have over since April one, 0:47:04.239 --> 0:47:09.320 over fifteen thousand unique fifty unique responses. Around half of 0:47:09.440 --> 0:47:14.280 those are from Haitian creole speakers cannot access this app 0:47:14.440 --> 0:47:19.000 to get an appointment. The other issue is is that 0:47:20.120 --> 0:47:23.719 the facial recognition software that's integrated into the cd P 0:47:23.880 --> 0:47:26.240 one app. You know, there's a lot of studies throughout 0:47:26.239 --> 0:47:30.600 the years about how this software will lead to false 0:47:30.680 --> 0:47:36.000 positives or failure to recognize for individuals that have um 0:47:36.120 --> 0:47:40.520 Afro descendant features or individuals that have more indigenous features. 0:47:41.040 --> 0:47:44.359 And we have seen this firsthand. So many of our 0:47:44.480 --> 0:47:50.080 Haitian clients are unable to even complete the profile and 0:47:50.520 --> 0:47:53.760 they are taking photos with cameras that have a decent, 0:47:54.239 --> 0:47:57.959 you know, lens capacity, and they still can't get past 0:47:58.000 --> 0:48:02.800 the facial recognition software. Yeah. It's just like a layers 0:48:02.840 --> 0:48:06.480 on layers of sort of you know, sometimes it's just 0:48:06.640 --> 0:48:10.560 them being like ineffective. Sometimes it just seems cruel. Let's 0:48:10.600 --> 0:48:12.680 go back a little bit to title forty two, because 0:48:12.719 --> 0:48:15.800 that word has been thrown around a lot, right, Title 0:48:15.840 --> 0:48:18.640 thirty two isn't initially it's not immigration law, is it. 0:48:18.920 --> 0:48:22.160 It's it's public health law. Is that right? I guess 0:48:22.200 --> 0:48:24.279 it's it's public it's a public health policy that's part 0:48:24.320 --> 0:48:28.200 of immigration law. Yes, it's public health policy that's being 0:48:28.360 --> 0:48:32.279 applied in the immigration contacts to close the border. Yeah. 0:48:32.640 --> 0:48:36.000 And then one thing that I think we've seen a 0:48:36.080 --> 0:48:39.160 lot recently is like one of the worst accounts on Twitter, 0:48:39.239 --> 0:48:43.239 which is the Border Patrol Union, likes to they do 0:48:43.320 --> 0:48:45.880 occasionally like tweet their own losses, which is kind of funny, 0:48:46.960 --> 0:48:50.920 but they like to throw out these statistics right constantly 0:48:51.080 --> 0:48:54.799 about encounters at the border. Can you explain how under 0:48:54.880 --> 0:49:01.560 title forty two, each encounter might not be a unique individual. Yeah. Absolutely, 0:49:02.120 --> 0:49:07.360 those individuals are overcounted because people will make multiple attempts 0:49:07.560 --> 0:49:11.680 to try to enter the US because they're so desperate. 0:49:11.760 --> 0:49:15.080 It's a dystopian healthscape on this side of the border, 0:49:15.160 --> 0:49:22.120 with people being trafficked, kidnapped for extortion, tortured, raped, murdered, 0:49:22.520 --> 0:49:27.000 sold uh. And so if that were any reasonable person, 0:49:27.080 --> 0:49:30.480 you would try tan fifteen times whatever it took to 0:49:30.560 --> 0:49:34.800 get across to safety. And the Border Patrol Union is 0:49:35.120 --> 0:49:39.080 disingenuous because it knows this, and instead it pulls out 0:49:39.120 --> 0:49:42.840 a figure that is much larger than what it represents 0:49:42.920 --> 0:49:48.000 in actual people. And they're disingenuous and how they describe it, Yeah, yeah, 0:49:48.000 --> 0:49:50.480 I think it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see 0:49:50.560 --> 0:49:52.960 through it. And of course, when we combine this with 0:49:53.280 --> 0:49:56.080 the the wall or the fence or whatever you want 0:49:56.080 --> 0:49:58.880 to call it, people are crossing in more remote and 0:49:58.960 --> 0:50:01.920 more dangerous areas to makes the crossing more risky, right, 0:50:02.160 --> 0:50:05.880 and results in hirings in two people dying, hiding themselves 0:50:06.040 --> 0:50:09.200 trying to cross, which, as you say, it's it's not 0:50:09.360 --> 0:50:11.359 a reasonable thing to do when you're faced with these 0:50:11.480 --> 0:50:16.520 terrible circumstances. Yeah, there's a beautiful poem called Home by 0:50:16.600 --> 0:50:21.320 Warsha Sire who's a Somali British poet, and one of 0:50:21.400 --> 0:50:23.520 the lines is you don't put your child in a 0:50:23.760 --> 0:50:27.279 in a boat unless it's safer than the land. No 0:50:27.440 --> 0:50:31.200 one would attempt to cross a thirty football or wade 0:50:31.400 --> 0:50:35.000 the Rio Grand or across the Arizona desert in the 0:50:35.120 --> 0:50:39.319 middle of summer unless what was behind them they were 0:50:39.400 --> 0:50:43.120 so sure was going to kill them. And the way 0:50:43.239 --> 0:50:47.200 that we've structured the wall and raising the height of 0:50:47.280 --> 0:50:49.920 the wall to make it harder to cross, and to 0:50:50.120 --> 0:50:53.680 build as much wall along the places where it would 0:50:53.680 --> 0:50:56.640 be a little bit easier to cross, the people making 0:50:56.680 --> 0:50:58.640 it so the only way to cross is through the 0:50:58.719 --> 0:51:04.120 most dangerous parts. That that's intentional, that is, you know, 0:51:04.800 --> 0:51:09.520 designed for people to die, because the government mistakenly believes 0:51:09.600 --> 0:51:14.160 that if it kills more people that folks will be deterred. 0:51:14.920 --> 0:51:19.440 But that's um not actually what we see on the ground. No, 0:51:20.640 --> 0:51:22.799 like it's not a vacuum, right, people are coming from 0:51:22.880 --> 0:51:25.400 bad things like making just making the board a difficult 0:51:25.400 --> 0:51:27.600 one will do nothing more than kill more people, which 0:51:27.680 --> 0:51:31.120 is what they've succeeded in doing, sadly, and so and 0:51:31.200 --> 0:51:33.000 then another thing I wanted to get it as Title 0:51:33.040 --> 0:51:35.800 forty two with this this crazy series of court cases 0:51:36.280 --> 0:51:39.239 around Title forty two, right, so can you explain, like 0:51:40.600 --> 0:51:43.080 why Titled forty two hasn't been repealed when we've done 0:51:43.120 --> 0:51:46.239 away with almost every other protection for people in kind 0:51:46.280 --> 0:51:51.000 of an ongoing pandemic. Title forty two could be repealed 0:51:51.280 --> 0:51:55.600 if the government was so not so intent on fighting 0:51:55.880 --> 0:51:58.880 the repeal of Title forty two. The A C. L 0:51:59.000 --> 0:52:02.960 U as been import for the last few years around 0:52:03.080 --> 0:52:05.520 Title for You to um in a case called we 0:52:05.680 --> 0:52:11.480 Sha we shah be my workis, and the judge in 0:52:11.560 --> 0:52:16.920 that case issued a decision in December ruling that turning 0:52:16.960 --> 0:52:19.400 away asylum seekers using Title for You two as a 0:52:19.480 --> 0:52:24.880 pretext um to turn asylum seekers away was unlawful. However, 0:52:25.480 --> 0:52:29.640 that decision was stayed. The government requested that the decision 0:52:29.760 --> 0:52:34.879 be uh temporarily stayed to give it time to make 0:52:35.000 --> 0:52:37.920 operational plans. The A C. L You did not oppose 0:52:38.040 --> 0:52:41.960 that stay and as a result. During that time, a 0:52:42.040 --> 0:52:46.839 group of conservative states filed intervening litigation UM to make 0:52:46.920 --> 0:52:51.640 their arguments about how their interests were harmed by the decision. 0:52:51.920 --> 0:52:55.840 And so now that cases before the Supreme Court and 0:52:56.440 --> 0:53:00.279 they will not hear the case until February, and we 0:53:00.400 --> 0:53:04.799 could be waiting as long as June for a decision. Yeah, 0:53:05.080 --> 0:53:08.040 many of those lots of those states weren't even along 0:53:08.080 --> 0:53:12.480 the border, right, that's some of the ones who sued. Yeah, 0:53:12.640 --> 0:53:16.680 that's still a mystery to all of us along the border. 0:53:16.920 --> 0:53:22.040 How interior states that sure might be receiving people coming 0:53:22.120 --> 0:53:27.160 from the border, but UM don't have that close nexus. 0:53:27.280 --> 0:53:30.239 Is in there are border community and they're being immediately impacted. 0:53:30.760 --> 0:53:36.360 Yeah yeah, pretty pretty female stuff. And the other issue 0:53:36.400 --> 0:53:40.000 I want to raise for people is the narrative is 0:53:40.600 --> 0:53:43.120 that we're in a crisis. The border is in a crisis. 0:53:43.960 --> 0:53:46.560 There's so many people, we can't possibly help them all. 0:53:47.400 --> 0:53:50.160 We close the border for over two years, so of 0:53:50.280 --> 0:53:53.279 course there's going to be more people because we've made 0:53:53.280 --> 0:53:59.680 it impossible for people to access. However, the sports of 0:53:59.760 --> 0:54:04.880 and Tree have contingency plans for mass migration events. This 0:54:05.080 --> 0:54:08.080 is something that UM was learned during the context of 0:54:08.160 --> 0:54:12.719 our litigation UM against c VP around access to the 0:54:12.800 --> 0:54:17.040 board of entry, and we see that the government is 0:54:17.239 --> 0:54:23.160 capable of responding rapidly in a manner that is consistent 0:54:23.239 --> 0:54:26.160 with human dignity, and how it responded to thirty thousand 0:54:26.280 --> 0:54:31.040 Ukrainians showing up in Tijuana this spring. In some days, 0:54:31.239 --> 0:54:35.359 c d P accepted as many as a thousand Ukrainians 0:54:35.480 --> 0:54:39.759 in a given day, where as both on those days 0:54:39.800 --> 0:54:43.640 they were accepting zero of other nationality, and they were 0:54:43.680 --> 0:54:46.000 able to get up to speed so quickly because every 0:54:46.080 --> 0:54:48.360 port of entry has a contingency plan. We are the 0:54:48.480 --> 0:54:51.680 United States government. We are arguably one of the most powerful, 0:54:51.719 --> 0:54:54.919 well resource governments on Earth. If you buy the line 0:54:54.920 --> 0:54:56.320 that this is a crisis and we don't have a 0:54:56.360 --> 0:54:58.400 contingency plan, then we've got a lot of work to 0:54:58.440 --> 0:55:01.680 do here, um. And so it's not it's a it's 0:55:01.719 --> 0:55:05.640 a manufactured crisis. Uh. We have the resources, we have 0:55:05.800 --> 0:55:08.840 the personnel. C DP has the largest law enforcement budget 0:55:08.920 --> 0:55:11.360 of all the law enforcement agencies in the federal government, 0:55:12.040 --> 0:55:16.160 and they have hands of thousands of personnel. It's what 0:55:16.320 --> 0:55:20.880 we lack is the political will and the emotional capital 0:55:21.080 --> 0:55:25.320 to do what we've already agreed to under US federal 0:55:25.440 --> 0:55:29.520 law as well as the Refugee Convention which we signed 0:55:30.600 --> 0:55:34.839 following World War Two, which was designed to prevent further 0:55:34.960 --> 0:55:38.359 genocide for their persecution of large groups of people. Um, 0:55:39.280 --> 0:55:43.560 but we continue to renag on on on those obligations 0:55:43.600 --> 0:55:46.160 to which we read to Yeah, yeah, like when we 0:55:46.200 --> 0:55:49.719 talk about genocide and persecution, Like I personally know people 0:55:49.800 --> 0:55:51.800 from me and MAA who are really struggling with the 0:55:51.880 --> 0:55:56.160 United States asylum system right now, and yeah, it's really 0:55:56.239 --> 0:56:01.759 deeply just infuriating to see them continue to pursue this 0:56:01.920 --> 0:56:03.719 kind of like waving my hands in the air, I 0:56:03.760 --> 0:56:06.160 don't know what to do kind of thing. Let's talk 0:56:06.160 --> 0:56:08.680 a little bit about Joe Biden and his policies, because 0:56:09.400 --> 0:56:14.120 like they've been blackluster or just completely like in some cases, 0:56:14.160 --> 0:56:16.840 you know, he he's issued executive orders which basically have 0:56:16.960 --> 0:56:20.480 gone on fulfilled right regarding asylum. And so they made 0:56:21.040 --> 0:56:24.240 a statement a few weeks ago now and Biden visited 0:56:24.280 --> 0:56:27.640 the border, and can you explain what he said in 0:56:27.680 --> 0:56:30.959 that statement? And then sort of what the Biden administration 0:56:31.880 --> 0:56:34.480 hasn't done to clear up the asylum system that it 0:56:34.520 --> 0:56:37.960 promised it would do. The Buiding administration made a lot 0:56:38.000 --> 0:56:43.280 of promises on the campaign trail. UM made an effort 0:56:43.480 --> 0:56:50.080 to put advocates in places in DHS other key positions 0:56:50.239 --> 0:56:53.280 to give the appearance that it was serious about reform 0:56:53.560 --> 0:56:59.680 and treating immigrants in a way that is dignified and humane. UM. 0:57:00.040 --> 0:57:05.040 But what we've seen is a continuation of Trump policies 0:57:05.280 --> 0:57:08.600 which restrict access to the border. For example, UM the 0:57:08.760 --> 0:57:13.399 new asylum band that they are proposing through regulation where 0:57:13.840 --> 0:57:18.120 individuals that have translated through another country UM and did 0:57:18.160 --> 0:57:21.080 not seek asylum in that country even if that country 0:57:21.200 --> 0:57:23.280 was not a safe country for them, UM that they 0:57:23.320 --> 0:57:26.600 would be precluded from applying for asylum. A lot of 0:57:26.680 --> 0:57:30.800 people are have been enthusiastic about these new parole programs 0:57:30.880 --> 0:57:38.320 for specific nationalities like Paraguans and Aswelans, um Haitians, Cubans. However, 0:57:39.640 --> 0:57:43.440 those programs are really just scraps UM. They have a 0:57:43.480 --> 0:57:48.480 thirty thousand person cap UM. The Ukrainian parole program had 0:57:48.480 --> 0:57:52.160 a hundred thousand person cap which has already been surpassed 0:57:52.640 --> 0:57:58.560 surpassed UM. Ukrainian sponsors well as the Ukrainian asylum seekers 0:57:58.600 --> 0:58:02.040 that were presenting through that prop RAM had much less 0:58:02.120 --> 0:58:06.560 by way of requirements UM. And so they've made a 0:58:07.000 --> 0:58:11.760 separate and not equal program for other nationalities which just 0:58:12.000 --> 0:58:15.200 happened to be nationalities that aren't white. Yeah. Yeah, it's 0:58:15.240 --> 0:58:18.640 hard not to see a kind of white people first 0:58:18.840 --> 0:58:23.880 approach to asylum here. Yeah, it's certainly challenge histr ability 0:58:23.920 --> 0:58:28.000 not to believe it's our right racist. So I wonder 0:58:28.360 --> 0:58:33.880 like going forward, obviously people listening will probably be sort 0:58:33.880 --> 0:58:38.920 of upset and concerned the continuing failures of our government. 0:58:38.920 --> 0:58:41.680 You don't think about it? Can you outline like how 0:58:41.880 --> 0:58:45.480 people can help? I know there's lots of people who 0:58:45.520 --> 0:58:47.800 will do direct mutual aid right like people like food 0:58:47.880 --> 0:58:51.960 not bombs of feeding people in Tijuana, But how can 0:58:52.000 --> 0:58:53.760 folks maybe who are at the border, and then who 0:58:53.760 --> 0:58:55.760 aren't near the border, how can how can they help 0:58:56.120 --> 0:59:01.160 well organizations that are at the border, including our who 0:59:01.480 --> 0:59:05.680 work with volunteers that are remote, um, particularly if they 0:59:05.760 --> 0:59:10.000 have a foreign language skill, because we can't serve toens 0:59:10.000 --> 0:59:13.440 of thousands of people each year with just the staff 0:59:13.600 --> 0:59:16.000 that we have UM and so we have a really 0:59:16.120 --> 0:59:20.760 robust remote volunteer network UM. I would also encourage people, 0:59:20.800 --> 0:59:24.200 as you pointed out, to look for organizations in their 0:59:24.240 --> 0:59:29.720 own community that are serving immigrants. It is incredibly humbling 0:59:29.880 --> 0:59:33.640 to move to another country and realize you don't know 0:59:33.720 --> 0:59:36.480 how to read the light bill, UM, you don't know 0:59:36.600 --> 0:59:38.880 how to register your kids for school? Can your kids 0:59:38.960 --> 0:59:41.440 go to school? Where? Can I go to the doctor? 0:59:42.040 --> 0:59:45.000 What you know? What is an ambulance? What that you 0:59:45.040 --> 0:59:46.520 know that I do? I not have to pay for that? 0:59:47.120 --> 0:59:49.600 All of these things that might be different from them, 0:59:49.680 --> 0:59:54.080 And a real lack of volunteers to assist people with 0:59:54.360 --> 0:59:59.320 those daily integration activities UM that are so important to 0:59:59.600 --> 1:00:03.440 figuring out how your new community works. UM. I also 1:00:03.840 --> 1:00:09.160 encourage people too, when there's an opportunity to have conversations 1:00:09.240 --> 1:00:13.160 with your elected official, to have those conversations, write emails, 1:00:13.360 --> 1:00:16.680 go in person if that's an opportunity. Different officials will 1:00:16.720 --> 1:00:19.560 have open days for their offices where you might be 1:00:19.640 --> 1:00:22.320 able to get maybe not face time with that official, 1:00:22.400 --> 1:00:26.120 but with their point person who is overseeing that issue 1:00:26.960 --> 1:00:30.400 right now. Are elected officials, they don't care about immigration 1:00:31.440 --> 1:00:35.040 because a lot of their constituents are not making it 1:00:35.760 --> 1:00:37.479 known to them what it is that they care about, 1:00:37.520 --> 1:00:40.600 and that they're willing to go to drastic measures such 1:00:40.640 --> 1:00:44.880 as shutting down their office. Um, if they don't take 1:00:44.960 --> 1:00:48.960 action on immigration, we're all just thinking about it as Okay, well, 1:00:49.000 --> 1:00:52.200 this is happening to immigrants. This is not me. I 1:00:52.360 --> 1:00:55.360 am a citizen. But all of the worst fascist policies 1:00:55.960 --> 1:01:00.400 are tried out first on groups and so id that 1:01:00.520 --> 1:01:05.760 have less political power, UM, on people that have criminal convictions, 1:01:05.960 --> 1:01:09.400 on the people who have disabilities that make it impossible 1:01:09.480 --> 1:01:14.120 for them to communicate, um, on immigrants, and so I 1:01:14.400 --> 1:01:18.680 would really encourage you're if you're concerned about fascism, if 1:01:18.680 --> 1:01:22.520 you're concerned about how your rights may be trampled in 1:01:22.560 --> 1:01:25.800 the future, that focus on immigrants, because they are the 1:01:25.920 --> 1:01:31.360 testing ground for a lot of fascist government's worst intentions. Yeah, 1:01:31.480 --> 1:01:33.840 and we've already seen that, right if people aren't familiar. 1:01:34.040 --> 1:01:37.200 It was bor Tech among others who were out there 1:01:37.280 --> 1:01:40.760 running around Portland checking people into unmarked vans. It was 1:01:40.880 --> 1:01:45.760 DHS drones surveiling people in Minneapolis. It was indeed DHS 1:01:45.800 --> 1:01:50.520 surveiling I think people from Malatlado and other organizations in 1:01:51.040 --> 1:01:54.240 eighteen when lots of US acrossing the board are very 1:01:54.320 --> 1:01:58.160 often to help people who were part of what's called 1:01:58.160 --> 1:02:01.000 the migrant caravan then and so like this this is 1:02:01.440 --> 1:02:04.080 happening to us. Right. There's a thing that crime think 1:02:04.160 --> 1:02:06.440 have on some of their posters which I always like, 1:02:06.600 --> 1:02:09.480 which is the border doesn't protect you, it controls you, 1:02:10.840 --> 1:02:12.720 which I think is it's more true than ever now, 1:02:12.840 --> 1:02:15.160 Like it's just sort of yeah, it's a place where 1:02:15.160 --> 1:02:17.760 we experiment with these policies and they seem to they 1:02:17.760 --> 1:02:19.920 seem to get away with them, right, Like, it doesn't 1:02:19.960 --> 1:02:21.840 seem to be something that people care about that they 1:02:21.880 --> 1:02:25.560 did even two or three years ago under the Trump administration. 1:02:25.960 --> 1:02:29.120 I wonder they call it. How can people Another thing 1:02:29.200 --> 1:02:33.160 that I think people lack is like a direct connection 1:02:33.240 --> 1:02:36.120 to people seeking asylum or to the situation at the border, 1:02:36.240 --> 1:02:39.439 right Like, every time something happens. I'm sure you've seen 1:02:39.480 --> 1:02:42.480 this more often than I have. And someone from l 1:02:42.520 --> 1:02:44.520 A or d C or New York or whatever kind 1:02:44.520 --> 1:02:49.080 of parachutes into border communities, does it. I can see 1:02:49.120 --> 1:02:51.360 that this is the frustration that you share. It does 1:02:51.400 --> 1:02:53.760 a story which misses masses of context and then bug 1:02:53.920 --> 1:02:56.080 us off back to the place where they came from. 1:02:56.360 --> 1:03:01.240 And so like, where where can people find better connections 1:03:01.360 --> 1:03:04.560 to the situation for people seeking asylum? I really like 1:03:05.400 --> 1:03:08.520 a blog and it's also a podcast every week, quarter 1:03:08.640 --> 1:03:13.360 Chronicles Todd Miller's Quarterer Chronicles. I also would recommend reading 1:03:13.640 --> 1:03:17.520 all of Todd Miller's books. He is an incredible investigative 1:03:17.600 --> 1:03:20.960 journalist that does the dive on how we got to 1:03:21.080 --> 1:03:25.120 this militarized state of your border. UM. So I would 1:03:25.160 --> 1:03:29.160 recommend starting with Border Patrol Nation and just going straight 1:03:29.280 --> 1:03:33.760 through there. UM. I also think Pro Publica also does 1:03:33.840 --> 1:03:39.000 really great investigative long dive reporting the intersect. I would 1:03:39.040 --> 1:03:42.040 look at those places. Yeah, yeah, I think if you're 1:03:42.160 --> 1:03:44.280 in a border community, like it's a really know that 1:03:44.360 --> 1:03:46.360 hard to cross, and see what's going on for yourself 1:03:46.480 --> 1:03:48.560 and and do a little something to help, you know, 1:03:48.760 --> 1:03:50.919 make some of your your money that you set aside 1:03:51.000 --> 1:03:53.920 veloping other people can go a long way if you 1:03:54.000 --> 1:03:56.520 choose to use it that way. And Nicole, how can 1:03:56.560 --> 1:03:59.640 people support your work directly? Like it's there a website 1:03:59.760 --> 1:04:03.640 or Twitter account they can follow to find more. Now, 1:04:03.720 --> 1:04:07.680 we do have our own website. We're also on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, 1:04:07.800 --> 1:04:14.200 and LinkedIn. We regularly post opportunities to volunteer remotely, volunteer 1:04:14.320 --> 1:04:18.320 in person, UM and campaigns that people want to donate 1:04:18.400 --> 1:04:22.160 to UM there's that opportunity as well. Great, and is 1:04:22.240 --> 1:04:24.720 there anything else you want to share about that you 1:04:24.800 --> 1:04:26.640 feel that our listeners should know, maybe if they haven't 1:04:26.640 --> 1:04:30.760 been following border situation closely. The border situation is part 1:04:30.840 --> 1:04:35.040 of a larger historical context. And briefly I talked about 1:04:35.040 --> 1:04:39.120 earlier the US as a signatory to the Refugee Convention, 1:04:39.280 --> 1:04:42.880 which is an outgrowth of the horror that the world 1:04:42.960 --> 1:04:45.920 collectively felt um when we came to grips with what 1:04:46.160 --> 1:04:49.480 happened during the Holocaust, and you know, we collectively said 1:04:49.600 --> 1:04:54.200 never again, never again. Part of our part in the 1:04:54.280 --> 1:04:58.000 Holocaust was we rejected the m S. St. Louis from 1:04:58.160 --> 1:05:01.840 the coast of Florida, and there was over nine d 1:05:02.000 --> 1:05:04.600 Jewish refugees that were on that boat. No other country 1:05:04.960 --> 1:05:08.960 accepted them, Cuba, Canada rejected and ultimately had to go 1:05:09.040 --> 1:05:11.400 back to Europe. And some of those people ultimately died 1:05:11.960 --> 1:05:15.360 in the Holocaust. And and those deaths are are on 1:05:16.080 --> 1:05:21.040 our conscience. Uh. And any time the asylum seekers are 1:05:21.120 --> 1:05:23.920 being turned away along the border when they have the 1:05:24.000 --> 1:05:27.040 legal right to present themselves under existing US law and 1:05:27.080 --> 1:05:29.920 international law, it's a it's a repetition of the M 1:05:30.040 --> 1:05:32.520 s St. Louis, except it's happening all across the border 1:05:32.920 --> 1:05:36.280 every single day. Yeah, that's very well put, and it is. 1:05:36.520 --> 1:05:38.840 It doesn't matter if it's one person or a hundred people, 1:05:38.920 --> 1:05:41.880 like it's a tragedy every time we can't give some 1:05:42.040 --> 1:05:43.720 We have plenty of safe places for people to go, 1:05:44.040 --> 1:05:47.720 but when deciding not to not to welcome them, and yeah, 1:05:47.760 --> 1:05:50.400 it's very very sad. Well, thank you so much for 1:05:50.520 --> 1:05:53.479 giving us some of your afternoon, Nicole. Um. If people 1:05:53.480 --> 1:05:55.200 want to find you personally, do you have a personal 1:05:55.840 --> 1:06:00.240 social media Yeah, you can find me on Twitter. Um. Yes, 1:06:00.920 --> 1:06:06.240 I'm loosen on Twitter. Okay, great? And altro laddo? Is 1:06:06.280 --> 1:06:11.600 it just a laddo on Twitter? Yest level? Sometimes we 1:06:11.680 --> 1:06:15.080 have a love level dot work and again yeah, so 1:06:15.200 --> 1:06:17.960 there's a l O t r O l A d 1:06:18.120 --> 1:06:22.520 O if people are need to spend out right. Thank you, wonderful, 1:06:22.600 --> 1:06:40.640 Thank you so much, Hello and welcome to It could 1:06:40.680 --> 1:06:44.640 happen here once again. Posted by myself Andrew from the 1:06:44.680 --> 1:06:49.560 YouTube channel andrewism as we talk about whatever and whatever 1:06:49.640 --> 1:06:54.040 in question is the second most populous country in the world, 1:06:54.520 --> 1:06:58.600 and one potential vision for its future drawn from its 1:06:58.680 --> 1:07:03.480 anti cludal past are speaking of course about India, a 1:07:03.560 --> 1:07:06.440 sub concerant from which I draw a good portion of 1:07:06.520 --> 1:07:09.800 my heritage, and one that boasts over nine thousand years 1:07:09.840 --> 1:07:14.640 of recorded history and roughly fifty years of known human settlement. 1:07:15.960 --> 1:07:23.440 India is an incredibly diverised country ethnically, linguistically, religiously and otherwise. 1:07:24.280 --> 1:07:27.520 But unfortunately it has suffered much of the same faith 1:07:27.600 --> 1:07:31.280 that the rest the world has fallen, creating the rapacious 1:07:31.440 --> 1:07:39.040 appetite of British clunialism. Well, historically, the Indian local economy 1:07:39.160 --> 1:07:45.000 was dependent upon the most productive and sustainable agriculture and horticulture, 1:07:45.080 --> 1:07:48.920 and of course pottery and footing. Jamaican jewelry was very 1:07:48.960 --> 1:07:52.800 well known for jewelry, and in fact Indian jewelry makers 1:07:54.120 --> 1:07:57.400 ended up starting some very successful jewelry businesses when they 1:07:58.360 --> 1:08:02.360 were freed from indentionship in or that um. They also 1:08:02.360 --> 1:08:04.800 got involved in leather work and a lot of other 1:08:05.160 --> 1:08:10.360 economic activities in India. UM. But the basis of India 1:08:10.480 --> 1:08:15.120 has traditionally, historically, you know, for thousands of years been textiles, 1:08:15.280 --> 1:08:18.840 different types of textiles. Each village had its spinners and 1:08:19.040 --> 1:08:22.360 carters and dyers and weavers who were of course at 1:08:22.400 --> 1:08:27.240 the heart of that village's economy. But an interesting outcome 1:08:27.880 --> 1:08:30.920 of British cleanism in India has been the flooding of 1:08:31.040 --> 1:08:35.559 India with the machine made, inexpensive, mass produced textiles from 1:08:35.640 --> 1:08:40.960 Lancashire during you know, in Briturn's Industrial Revolution, the local 1:08:41.040 --> 1:08:43.759 textile artists who are very quickly put out to business 1:08:43.920 --> 1:08:48.280 and village economies suffered very terribly. So I mean, you know, well, 1:08:48.560 --> 1:08:51.599 I think we're familiar with this sort of general story. 1:08:52.760 --> 1:08:59.920 Smaller cottage industries became overrun by you know, mass production. 1:09:00.000 --> 1:09:01.920 And of course I don't mean to sound like I'm 1:09:02.040 --> 1:09:06.280 entirely demonizing mass production, just describing what has happened. Of course, 1:09:07.040 --> 1:09:10.559 mass production has had its many benefits in providing access 1:09:10.640 --> 1:09:16.240 to resources and two products many different people. But of 1:09:16.320 --> 1:09:20.080 course it's also had its many drawbacks, including you know, 1:09:20.479 --> 1:09:24.040 the share environmental impact as well as the impact on 1:09:24.240 --> 1:09:28.639 people um you know, as Mark spoke about, of um, 1:09:29.280 --> 1:09:34.840 their alienation from the process of production, as the industrial 1:09:35.000 --> 1:09:39.799 system basically separated each step in the process of production 1:09:40.080 --> 1:09:42.160 two different workers and so no one had a hand 1:09:42.680 --> 1:09:44.799 in the production of a product and start to finish, 1:09:45.600 --> 1:09:50.200 and of course that that had significant social and I 1:09:50.240 --> 1:09:55.120 would also assume mental impact on the people with you know, 1:09:56.080 --> 1:10:00.160 that whole era of British economic imperialism happening in the UH. 1:10:00.560 --> 1:10:04.400 The changes that took place within a generation was so rapid, 1:10:04.479 --> 1:10:08.360 you know, your headwards spin that evolution of you know, 1:10:08.680 --> 1:10:12.559 the India home economy. It was really a site to behold. 1:10:13.240 --> 1:10:18.360 And another element of British economic impuialism and British imperialism 1:10:18.439 --> 1:10:22.799 more broadly was the instruction of British education under colonial 1:10:22.920 --> 1:10:26.839 rule in the eighteenth century UM. When Lord McCaulay introduced 1:10:26.880 --> 1:10:30.360 the Indian Education Act in the British Parliament UM, he said, 1:10:30.600 --> 1:10:34.560 and I quote, a single shelf of a good European 1:10:34.880 --> 1:10:39.160 library was with the whole native literature of India. Neither 1:10:39.200 --> 1:10:41.160 as a language of the law, nor as a language 1:10:41.160 --> 1:10:44.479 of religion, has a sang script any particular claim to 1:10:44.560 --> 1:10:47.080 our engagement. We must do our best to form a 1:10:47.120 --> 1:10:51.080 class of persons Indian in blood and color, but English 1:10:51.240 --> 1:10:54.880 in taste, in opinions, in morals, and in intellect. So 1:10:55.400 --> 1:11:01.320 the typical racism, typical white pants, burdon, typical you know. Um. 1:11:02.360 --> 1:11:04.879 Of course, this phrase was used in a North American 1:11:05.720 --> 1:11:10.080 indigenous American context. But I believe the phrase is taking 1:11:10.120 --> 1:11:13.240 the Indian out to the man. Yeah, kill the Indians, 1:11:13.280 --> 1:11:16.479 save the man, right, Um, So it's kind of interesting. 1:11:16.680 --> 1:11:18.640 It's a different type of Indian talking about there, but 1:11:19.280 --> 1:11:22.800 that sort of idea still applies. And really that sort 1:11:22.840 --> 1:11:25.960 of sentiment is something that has existed throughout the history 1:11:25.960 --> 1:11:30.920 of communism, something that you know is seen in all 1:11:31.000 --> 1:11:35.639 of Britain's former colonies. Because Monster's Aim was put into 1:11:35.680 --> 1:11:38.880 Parliament and pushed forward, it was pursued with the mind 1:11:38.960 --> 1:11:41.679 to the British raj or the traditional schools that took 1:11:41.720 --> 1:11:47.000 place in different village communities were gradually replaced by colonial 1:11:47.120 --> 1:11:51.120 schools and universities. Of course, taking advantage of the cast 1:11:51.200 --> 1:11:53.639 and class system that was in place in India prior 1:11:53.680 --> 1:11:57.799 to their arrival, the British would have selected wealthier Indians 1:11:57.840 --> 1:12:00.519 to be sensed to public schools such as Eaton and 1:12:00.640 --> 1:12:05.120 Haru and universities like Oxford and Cambridge, and those Indians 1:12:05.240 --> 1:12:07.960 that you know, they learned English poetry, English law, English 1:12:08.000 --> 1:12:11.320 customs to the neglect of their own culture. You know, 1:12:11.400 --> 1:12:15.439 It's like, why read the classics of the Vadas when 1:12:15.760 --> 1:12:20.880 you have Shakespeare and the London times. And so having 1:12:20.960 --> 1:12:24.200 been raised in that environment, having grown up, having basically 1:12:24.240 --> 1:12:27.680 their minds colonized from the crib, they began to see 1:12:27.720 --> 1:12:33.720 their own cultures as backward, uncivilized, old fashioned, regressive and 1:12:33.800 --> 1:12:37.679 again something you see all over the world. You sorts 1:12:37.720 --> 1:12:41.000 in the residential schools, you see it in the schools 1:12:41.040 --> 1:12:42.960 in the Caribbean, and you see it in schools in Africa. 1:12:43.080 --> 1:12:47.040 Basically everywhere they colonized went um. They would take a generation, 1:12:47.400 --> 1:12:50.519 they were take generations of young people, and they would 1:12:50.840 --> 1:12:54.360 developed that self hatred um not the staining for their 1:12:54.360 --> 1:12:58.960 own culture by you know, positioning um their education, British 1:12:59.080 --> 1:13:05.080 education as you know, superior. In fact, during the process 1:13:05.160 --> 1:13:09.120 of decolonization coulde and quote um of you know, formal 1:13:09.240 --> 1:13:14.000 political independence many of the former colonies of Britain, particularly 1:13:14.040 --> 1:13:17.120 the Caribbeans. That's where most familiar um. A lot of 1:13:17.200 --> 1:13:19.759 the people who became you know, the fullest prime ministers 1:13:19.800 --> 1:13:23.200 of the country, the one that would establish the trajectory 1:13:23.360 --> 1:13:26.519 of the country for years of decades to come. Um. 1:13:27.280 --> 1:13:32.160 Thinking of people like Bustamante in Jamaica, Eric Williams, Dr. 1:13:32.240 --> 1:13:36.559 Ric Williams and Trance peakle Um among others. Basically all 1:13:36.640 --> 1:13:40.679 of the fullest prime ministers basically every single Caribbean country. 1:13:41.280 --> 1:13:47.200 They had all been educated, um in English schools, in 1:13:47.680 --> 1:13:52.799 English universities, in well in the prestige schools of their countries, 1:13:52.920 --> 1:13:55.840 didn't end up being flewn out to Britain itself, and 1:13:55.880 --> 1:14:02.800 they basically became the rulers, became the leaders um well 1:14:02.920 --> 1:14:06.040 handed power over by the British to basically rule in 1:14:06.160 --> 1:14:10.920 their stead. Of course, that's all the talk of finally independence. UM. 1:14:12.680 --> 1:14:15.960 People got caught up in that energy of political independence 1:14:16.000 --> 1:14:19.960 and freedom from the control of the British after all 1:14:20.120 --> 1:14:26.880 the decades and centuries of struggle. But unfortunately it proved, 1:14:26.920 --> 1:14:30.479 I believe to be a ruse as very little changed 1:14:30.800 --> 1:14:35.800 for the average person in the s post political independence. Yeah, 1:14:35.840 --> 1:14:38.880 this is something that Phnan talks about um in in 1:14:39.040 --> 1:14:41.600 the sort of Francophone context of like, even even in 1:14:41.640 --> 1:14:44.960 countries you have like Atward, you know that the colonizes 1:14:45.000 --> 1:14:47.080 are thrown up actual revolutions, you get this class of 1:14:47.200 --> 1:14:53.760 like like lawyers and intellectuals who are like have been 1:14:53.880 --> 1:14:56.759 educated like in imperialist powers or in sort of their schools, 1:14:56.760 --> 1:15:00.800 who wind up as like the first generation of of 1:15:01.040 --> 1:15:04.439 post independence leaders and those people like you know what, 1:15:04.600 --> 1:15:07.320 whether they want to or not, end up sort of 1:15:07.439 --> 1:15:11.600 like reflecting the sort of values and political positions of 1:15:13.479 --> 1:15:15.360 like of the form of colonial powers. And there's this 1:15:15.400 --> 1:15:18.320 whole sort of dynamic that like I feel like, I 1:15:18.400 --> 1:15:20.920 feel like this is the part of but not that 1:15:21.000 --> 1:15:24.800 people don't read very much, But that's about how these 1:15:24.920 --> 1:15:28.200 leaders sort of like lose touch with it with the 1:15:28.240 --> 1:15:30.479 sort of like math anti colonial masses, and how they 1:15:30.520 --> 1:15:34.559 sort of like wind up reincorporating their countries back into 1:15:34.600 --> 1:15:38.639 sort of colonialism. Yeah. Yeah, that's really how you see 1:15:38.640 --> 1:15:42.519 that nucleonal dynamic developing UM. And it's really it's hard 1:15:42.560 --> 1:15:46.680 to tell, um retrospectively whether these leaders thought they were 1:15:46.760 --> 1:15:50.519 actually you know, anti colonial or if they knew that 1:15:50.600 --> 1:15:55.000 they were you know, carrying on a particular legacy. But 1:15:55.560 --> 1:15:59.920 I find that because is only um only recently celebrate 1:16:00.040 --> 1:16:03.600 to just last year sixty years of independence, there of 1:16:03.680 --> 1:16:06.920 course people who are alive prior to independence, and so 1:16:07.000 --> 1:16:09.920 you find a lot of the older generation how they 1:16:10.120 --> 1:16:13.000 how some of them speak, particularly more educated ones, how 1:16:13.080 --> 1:16:16.639 they carry themselves or they dress, the attitudes their spouse 1:16:16.800 --> 1:16:19.879 is very much like to get any kind of respect 1:16:20.600 --> 1:16:23.960 in their time, you had to behave with me, had 1:16:24.000 --> 1:16:25.600 to present yourself with me, and to present yourself in 1:16:25.640 --> 1:16:30.800 a as approximate to Britishness as possible, the whole you know, 1:16:30.920 --> 1:16:33.920 conversation of respectability, politics and stuff. So I have some 1:16:34.080 --> 1:16:36.439 understanding of what they had to go through and where 1:16:36.479 --> 1:16:39.719 they're coming from when they hold onto these perspectives still 1:16:39.800 --> 1:16:43.479 because that's what they grew up in. Um. But it 1:16:43.560 --> 1:16:46.640 really is a shame that they've been hooling back progress 1:16:46.800 --> 1:16:50.560 for so long now because they still hold on to 1:16:50.680 --> 1:16:55.599 these deeply conservative, deeply religious, deeply reactionary ideas that we're 1:16:56.439 --> 1:17:00.080 just you know, they just implicated within the edecute and 1:17:00.160 --> 1:17:05.479 system and in the cultural cast all the time. I 1:17:05.640 --> 1:17:08.439 was just when I was talking about Fan, I was 1:17:08.479 --> 1:17:10.559 thinking as well about like, have you read a book 1:17:10.640 --> 1:17:15.000 called Beyond the Boundary by C. L. James Andrew. I 1:17:15.120 --> 1:17:18.200 haven't because it's about cricket and I'm not too integrated cricket. 1:17:19.880 --> 1:17:22.320 But I've been, Um, I know it's an iconic and 1:17:22.439 --> 1:17:25.400 I think he ye, he explains a lot of that 1:17:25.560 --> 1:17:28.200 very well. I think people could read it even if 1:17:28.200 --> 1:17:30.800 they don't. Like I'm not a big cricket person. But 1:17:31.439 --> 1:17:34.280 it's certainly one of the best sports books I've read, 1:17:34.360 --> 1:17:36.800 and maybe one of the best books. And he doesn't 1:17:39.040 --> 1:17:41.040 he put on a lot of bangers in his time. Yeah, 1:17:41.240 --> 1:17:45.240 he did have some bags, highly recommended. Yeah, if you 1:17:45.280 --> 1:17:46.920 if you don't want to read about cricket. He also 1:17:46.960 --> 1:17:49.920 talks about this in The crewmin and the Ghana Revolution. Yeah, 1:17:52.320 --> 1:17:58.000 that is not about cricket. It's more of an autobiography, 1:17:58.120 --> 1:18:00.680 like seen through the lens of his his ricket, I think. 1:18:00.920 --> 1:18:03.320 But yeah, it'd be cool because I know he spent 1:18:03.360 --> 1:18:05.080 a lot of time. He grew up of course born 1:18:05.160 --> 1:18:07.519 readers and stuff and true and that, so we're interested 1:18:07.600 --> 1:18:11.840 to see um sort of if he talks about his 1:18:11.880 --> 1:18:17.679 political development, how Adau was in this time in Tranad, Yeah, 1:18:17.720 --> 1:18:19.320 I think he does. It's been a while since I've 1:18:19.360 --> 1:18:20.960 read it, but I think he talks about like how 1:18:21.240 --> 1:18:24.840 he sort of saw himself constituted as colonial subjectly through 1:18:25.280 --> 1:18:28.600 his experiences interacting with British people on one of the 1:18:28.720 --> 1:18:30.960 places where the terrains where he'd encountered them, I guess 1:18:31.320 --> 1:18:36.080 was playing cricket because great, yes, of course, and you know, 1:18:36.240 --> 1:18:41.040 thankfully we've come to decimate them at their own game 1:18:41.080 --> 1:18:49.799 as usual, it's true. Yeah yeah, And even like English 1:18:49.840 --> 1:18:51.840 cricket at a certain point, like getting really into cricket, 1:18:51.880 --> 1:18:54.840 which I know it is a diversion, but like they 1:18:55.000 --> 1:18:56.880 had rules where you could only have a certain number 1:18:56.880 --> 1:19:02.200 of international players playing for each English county. It's it's extreme, 1:19:02.360 --> 1:19:04.559 like if you look at how the Empire constituted white 1:19:04.720 --> 1:19:06.880 through sport, and like who was allowed to play rugby, 1:19:07.360 --> 1:19:09.320 which is a touching sport, and who was allowed to 1:19:09.320 --> 1:19:11.680 play cricket, which which isn't normally a touching sport like 1:19:11.760 --> 1:19:15.559 it did think it's racist as fun, yeah, I mean, 1:19:15.640 --> 1:19:20.920 of course it's hilariousism in sports history. Sorry for the 1:19:20.960 --> 1:19:25.679 cricket diversion. Sorry, please continue, as it's entirely fine. I see, 1:19:25.880 --> 1:19:27.760 it's all Greek to me because I don't know what 1:19:27.800 --> 1:19:31.000 any of those points or numbers or anything means um 1:19:32.080 --> 1:19:33.760 to many different types of cricket. I mean, I've had 1:19:33.800 --> 1:19:35.560 people try to explain to me before. It's just that 1:19:35.720 --> 1:19:38.080 my thing. Um. I know people who play it though, 1:19:38.160 --> 1:19:41.080 so you know, good for them at all. But back 1:19:41.120 --> 1:19:44.599 to India, right, if there's one particular person in India's 1:19:44.600 --> 1:19:49.080 history that really represented this type of Western educated colony 1:19:49.200 --> 1:19:52.760 his subject, trying to be something bigger than that kind 1:19:52.800 --> 1:19:57.200 of mentality. It was Jawaharlal who became the first Prime 1:19:57.240 --> 1:20:01.320 minister after independence. Their ruf course so to promote the 1:20:01.400 --> 1:20:05.880 industrialization of India not be a capitalist route, but by 1:20:05.960 --> 1:20:07.960 more of a centralized plan and route, which is why 1:20:08.479 --> 1:20:10.639 if you look in the India India's constitution you will 1:20:10.680 --> 1:20:16.840 see that it's reference to itself as a socialist country. Actually, really, 1:20:16.880 --> 1:20:18.800 if I'm remembering right, neighbor, it was like he was 1:20:18.840 --> 1:20:22.679 like a Fabian socialist or something. Yeah, yeah, his inspiration came, 1:20:24.000 --> 1:20:26.679 his inspiration came from the intellectuals of the London School 1:20:26.680 --> 1:20:31.160 of Economics and the Fabian society. So yeah, he's quite 1:20:31.200 --> 1:20:34.240 the character. You see, the sort of direction that he 1:20:34.400 --> 1:20:37.840 ends up putting the country. And I mean even today, 1:20:38.680 --> 1:20:41.800 India in many ways continues to be ruled in the 1:20:41.960 --> 1:20:46.400 English way without English rulers. Um, just like in the 1:20:46.479 --> 1:20:49.479 Caribbean continues to be ruled in the English way without 1:20:49.520 --> 1:20:54.600 English rulers. In Africa, you know, the various countries have 1:20:54.680 --> 1:20:57.439 been ruling their various colonize and powers way rather than 1:20:57.640 --> 1:21:02.240 in their own way without the colonizes rulers, father colonizing rulers. UM. 1:21:03.640 --> 1:21:06.519 The industrialists, the intellectuals, the entrepreneurs, all of them are 1:21:06.720 --> 1:21:09.799 working with the government to see the salvation of India 1:21:09.920 --> 1:21:15.200 taking place in a subordination to the world. Back can 1:21:15.320 --> 1:21:17.400 the I M F from the G A T T. 1:21:18.640 --> 1:21:21.240 You know, they see India as part of this global economy, 1:21:22.280 --> 1:21:27.320 meant to submit into sue to multinational corporations. UM. But 1:21:27.360 --> 1:21:30.639 of course the people of India h not to please 1:21:30.680 --> 1:21:33.120 in the people of India suffering under the brunt of 1:21:33.160 --> 1:21:37.320 that UM. After seeing the failures of of course the 1:21:37.400 --> 1:21:41.040 Congress Party under Nehru and his daughter Indira Gandhi and 1:21:41.120 --> 1:21:48.240 her son Rajiv Gandhi. Um, the poor continues to be 1:21:48.280 --> 1:21:54.880 poor than ever. The middle classes and tuning towards h 1:21:55.640 --> 1:22:01.000 just say certain directions. UM. And of course, as we've 1:22:01.040 --> 1:22:03.559 seen in the past few years, the farmers have been 1:22:03.600 --> 1:22:11.960 agitating against various pressures. They've been placed under things, kind 1:22:11.960 --> 1:22:17.120 of stuff. And it was pretty much how Mahatma Gandhi 1:22:17.720 --> 1:22:23.840 predicted that it would. Because unlike Neru and unlike other 1:22:24.600 --> 1:22:28.200 Western here to thinkers of his time, UM Gandhi thought 1:22:28.280 --> 1:22:31.920 differently about what India's potential could be what it looked like. 1:22:32.120 --> 1:22:38.120 And that's part of the reason they killed him. And 1:22:38.880 --> 1:22:42.519 I must preface this discussion of Gandhi's vision of a 1:22:42.560 --> 1:22:46.200 free India by Norton of course, that Gandhi himself was 1:22:46.240 --> 1:22:52.200 a very flawed person. Um, you know, racist, sexist, Um, 1:22:53.080 --> 1:22:57.160 pretty sure he assaulted somebody, He did some very um 1:22:58.120 --> 1:23:01.360 fucked up stuff to his niece. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 1:23:01.479 --> 1:23:04.760 I just well, well leave it at that. But I 1:23:04.800 --> 1:23:06.960 mean that's not something you can put aside for something 1:23:07.000 --> 1:23:11.640 to be cognizant of. But one of the aspects of 1:23:12.520 --> 1:23:18.400 um his time on this planet had been his development 1:23:18.520 --> 1:23:20.280 of a sort of a vision of a free India, 1:23:20.920 --> 1:23:24.760 not as a nation state, but as a confederation of 1:23:24.920 --> 1:23:29.120 self governance, self reliance, self employed people living in village 1:23:29.160 --> 1:23:34.200 communities deriving their right livelihood from the products of their homesteads. 1:23:35.200 --> 1:23:37.439 It would have been a sort of a bottom up 1:23:38.040 --> 1:23:42.000 system where the power to decide what could be important 1:23:42.040 --> 1:23:45.160 into an expert from the village via economic and political power. 1:23:45.439 --> 1:23:49.280 All I mean in the hands of village assemblies, where 1:23:49.439 --> 1:23:53.679 people in these village assemblies, in these communities would continue 1:23:53.800 --> 1:23:58.439 to live in relative how many with their surroundings with um. 1:23:58.760 --> 1:24:03.280 They would continue to we've their homespun clothes, eat their 1:24:03.320 --> 1:24:06.040 home and grown food, use their home made goods, care 1:24:06.120 --> 1:24:09.840 for their animals, their forests and their lands, take care 1:24:09.880 --> 1:24:14.719 of the futility the soil, enjoy the home grown stories 1:24:14.800 --> 1:24:18.360 and epics of India, and continue to build their temples 1:24:18.520 --> 1:24:25.439 and appreciates their various regional distinctive cultures. This was meant 1:24:25.520 --> 1:24:30.200 to be the system, the practice the idea of the 1:24:30.280 --> 1:24:34.680 philosophy of Swadeshi, which is a conjunction of two San 1:24:34.760 --> 1:24:39.759 Skrit words Swa which meaning self or own and desh 1:24:39.880 --> 1:24:44.120 meaning country, Swadeshi as an adjective meaning of one's own country. 1:24:44.800 --> 1:24:48.240 According to the principle of Swadeshi, the idea is that 1:24:49.040 --> 1:24:51.160 whatever has made or produced in a village must be 1:24:51.280 --> 1:24:54.160 used first and foremost by the members of that village. 1:24:55.160 --> 1:24:58.120 So I mean there could be traded and collaboration between 1:24:58.240 --> 1:25:02.639 villages and communities, but gardily thread it should be minimal, 1:25:02.800 --> 1:25:04.120 like a sort of an ice and on the cake. 1:25:04.920 --> 1:25:08.000 Um goods and services to him was something that should 1:25:08.000 --> 1:25:11.559 have been generated within the community. The things that needed 1:25:11.600 --> 1:25:13.840 to be used by the community should be created in 1:25:13.920 --> 1:25:20.200 that community. Another influential. Perhaps the most influential aspect of 1:25:20.360 --> 1:25:24.920 Swedeshi and Swadeshi philosophy took place in the early twentieth 1:25:25.000 --> 1:25:28.479 century as a direct fallout the decision of the British 1:25:28.520 --> 1:25:34.880 India governments to partition Bengal. The use of Swedeshi goods 1:25:35.200 --> 1:25:37.439 or the goods that are produced and made in India 1:25:37.520 --> 1:25:40.519 by and here for Indians, and the boycott of foreign 1:25:40.560 --> 1:25:43.800 made goods were among the two main objectives of the 1:25:43.840 --> 1:25:48.439 Swedeeshi movement, and the boycott resolution ended up being passed 1:25:48.479 --> 1:25:52.439 in Calcutta City Hall in August seven nine four UM 1:25:52.720 --> 1:25:55.000 boycott in the use of Manchester cloth and sold from 1:25:55.040 --> 1:25:58.280 Liverpool in the district to barrisl The masses adopted the 1:25:58.320 --> 1:26:02.160 message of boycott aformadoods and the value of the British cloth, 1:26:02.280 --> 1:26:08.559 So they have fell very rapidly. Various songs and cultural 1:26:08.680 --> 1:26:12.600 works ended up being produced in the time UM to 1:26:12.800 --> 1:26:17.400 sort of bolster the movement. At one point one English 1:26:17.439 --> 1:26:21.800 cloths were burned as part of the boycott, and the 1:26:21.960 --> 1:26:27.800 symbol of caddy spinners, the sort of tool that was 1:26:28.000 --> 1:26:34.439 used to weave cloth to we've fibers creaton, became a 1:26:34.560 --> 1:26:39.559 nature force in the movement and the representation of the movement. 1:26:40.880 --> 1:26:42.640 I think I get what you're saying, that we can 1:26:42.680 --> 1:26:45.519 all benefit from a little specialization and and that the 1:26:46.640 --> 1:26:51.480 like improvements that that brings, while still sort of acknowledging 1:26:51.520 --> 1:26:54.360 that autonomy is desirable. Yeah, I think there needs to 1:26:54.400 --> 1:26:57.639 be some some balance between your autonomy and surft reliance 1:26:57.640 --> 1:27:00.599 and that kind of thing, and also operation. I think 1:27:00.640 --> 1:27:03.960 he goes a bit too much in that autonomy direction. 1:27:04.080 --> 1:27:08.320 But in the context of when these ideas being developed, 1:27:08.360 --> 1:27:12.479 it's sort of understandable because, um, in this time, you know, 1:27:12.680 --> 1:27:17.280 the self reliance of the people as being vastly eroded, 1:27:18.120 --> 1:27:20.920 people being forced into you know, cities, they've lost their 1:27:20.960 --> 1:27:26.080 livelihoods um, and they were there was a sort of 1:27:26.280 --> 1:27:31.160 developing reliance and the global economy. Whereaswold As she proposes 1:27:31.200 --> 1:27:35.160 that you know, India avoids economic dependence on external market 1:27:35.280 --> 1:27:41.360 forces that create these vulnerabilities and communities that end up, um, 1:27:42.200 --> 1:27:45.479 you know, really harming the members of that community, so 1:27:45.680 --> 1:27:50.040 that she's meant to avoid the unhealthy and wasteful environmental 1:27:50.080 --> 1:27:57.519 destructive transportation of goods um between communities, avoiding the excessive 1:27:57.560 --> 1:28:02.000 emissions that would cause um and promoting, of course, the 1:28:02.000 --> 1:28:05.479 development of a strong economic base to satisfy the needs 1:28:05.720 --> 1:28:11.240 of the community, to satisfy the UH local production consumption, 1:28:12.160 --> 1:28:15.280 so that she is kind of about both creating a 1:28:15.320 --> 1:28:20.439 self reliant India and also creating self reliant villages within India, 1:28:20.560 --> 1:28:24.840 so that each village is a microcosum of the greater India, 1:28:25.840 --> 1:28:31.360 a web of sort of a distributed, decentralized web of 1:28:31.520 --> 1:28:37.160 loosely interconnected communities. In a time where the British were 1:28:37.160 --> 1:28:42.080 promoting the centralized, industrialized, mechanized mode of production, Gandhy was 1:28:42.120 --> 1:28:46.480 turning to the principle of decentralized, home grown and handcrafted 1:28:46.520 --> 1:28:52.000 modes of production UH rather than mass production production by 1:28:52.080 --> 1:28:55.320 the masses. I think there was also a spiritual component 1:28:55.439 --> 1:28:59.240 of the idea of Swadeshi, because at the time Gandhy 1:28:59.320 --> 1:29:03.000 was not a fan of the idea that people were 1:29:03.080 --> 1:29:07.960 not using their hands to produce, the idea that, you know, 1:29:08.680 --> 1:29:12.160 everyone should be involved in some kind of um trade 1:29:12.320 --> 1:29:15.559 or skill of some kind that utilizes their hands because 1:29:16.240 --> 1:29:18.800 of you know, the whole spiritual component of using the 1:29:18.880 --> 1:29:23.840 body that you have fully and another aspect of the spirituality, 1:29:23.960 --> 1:29:25.680 so that she was of course the idea of this 1:29:25.840 --> 1:29:30.519 locally based community, enhancing a community spirit, community relationships, and 1:29:30.720 --> 1:29:34.920 community well being, an economy that actively encourages mutual aid, 1:29:35.479 --> 1:29:43.080 that encourages the principle of care between families, neighbors, animals, lands, forestry, 1:29:43.240 --> 1:29:50.360 natural resources for present and future generations. It's there confrontation 1:29:51.360 --> 1:29:54.400 of the driving force between mass production which Gandi so 1:29:55.040 --> 1:29:59.320 has this cult of the individual, where there must be 1:30:00.360 --> 1:30:03.640 to expansion of the economy of global scale uh and 1:30:03.840 --> 1:30:06.639 expand the consumption production of the sake of economic growth 1:30:07.439 --> 1:30:11.600 out of a desire for the individual's personal whims, for 1:30:12.000 --> 1:30:22.080 the desire for you know, personal and corporate profit. Another reason, 1:30:22.200 --> 1:30:25.360 of course, that Gandhi rallied against this idea of mass 1:30:25.400 --> 1:30:28.879 production and promoting in production for the masses by the masses, 1:30:29.520 --> 1:30:32.479 it's because mass production leads people leave in their villages, 1:30:32.600 --> 1:30:35.360 they land, their crafts and their homesteads to go work 1:30:35.640 --> 1:30:39.200 in factories where they became cogs in a machine, standing 1:30:39.280 --> 1:30:42.400 in a conveyor belt, living in enchanty towns and dependence 1:30:42.439 --> 1:30:46.479 upon the movesy of the bosses, and of course as 1:30:46.840 --> 1:30:51.519 those bosses gained access to more efficient technologies because they 1:30:51.560 --> 1:30:54.759 were constant in pursuit of greater productivity in this creative profit. 1:30:55.439 --> 1:30:59.479 The masters of this economy, you know, they want more 1:30:59.560 --> 1:31:03.200 efficient machines working faster, and so they want less people. 1:31:03.360 --> 1:31:06.240 We can loose machines, and so the result was that 1:31:06.280 --> 1:31:08.560 the people who have to move to these cities to 1:31:08.640 --> 1:31:11.840 working these factories we eventually thrown out when they were 1:31:11.880 --> 1:31:16.680 no longer considered useful and became and joining the millions 1:31:17.520 --> 1:31:23.920 of unemployed, you know, rootless, job less people in uh 1:31:24.080 --> 1:31:30.360 Indian society. Sweeter she instead encourages the idea that the 1:31:30.439 --> 1:31:33.479 machine sholl be something that subordinates the worker, but instead 1:31:33.600 --> 1:31:36.679 something that is subordinated to the worker, that it hasn't 1:31:36.680 --> 1:31:40.759 become the master, but instead it is mastered and allows 1:31:40.880 --> 1:31:44.200 us to orchestrate our own pace of you know, human activity. 1:31:45.160 --> 1:31:49.400 It's not that Sweeter Sweaters she is necessarily against automation, 1:31:49.600 --> 1:31:54.479 against technological development, but it's more so that it aims 1:31:54.560 --> 1:32:01.240 to circumvent the harms that could be called by such 1:32:01.320 --> 1:32:04.840 technology is being out of the control of the people 1:32:04.920 --> 1:32:09.960 themselves and in the control of the select private few. 1:32:10.760 --> 1:32:12.519 I thinks what that she has a sort of an 1:32:12.560 --> 1:32:17.639 element of glorification of the past. Um they weren't doing 1:32:17.640 --> 1:32:22.960 my research for this episode, I ended up looking into um. 1:32:23.680 --> 1:32:27.280 Of course, the writings of proponents is what a she um? 1:32:27.600 --> 1:32:32.840 And people discussing Andy's thoughts on the subject, and I'll 1:32:32.880 --> 1:32:36.840 just quote one particular passage, So what as she is 1:32:36.960 --> 1:32:41.400 the way to comprehensive peace, peace with oneself, peace between 1:32:41.479 --> 1:32:45.599 people's and peace with nature. The global economy drives people 1:32:45.680 --> 1:32:50.360 toward high performance, high achievement, and high ambition from materialistic success. 1:32:51.040 --> 1:32:54.280 This results in stress, loss of mening, loss of in 1:32:54.360 --> 1:32:57.320 a peace, loss of space for posonal family relationships, and 1:32:57.400 --> 1:33:00.639 loss of spiritual life. Gandhi realized and in the past 1:33:01.080 --> 1:33:03.679 life in India was not only prosperous but also conducive 1:33:03.760 --> 1:33:07.519 to philosophical and spiritual development, so that she, fora Gandhi, 1:33:07.960 --> 1:33:13.240 was a spiritual imperative. I think it's understandable that a 1:33:13.600 --> 1:33:23.560 decolonial project would attempt to develop a pride in the 1:33:23.800 --> 1:33:27.160 history of the people who have gone through so much 1:33:27.960 --> 1:33:31.439 um and you know their legacy and their traditions in 1:33:31.560 --> 1:33:34.840 their ideas. But I think it's a bit of a 1:33:34.920 --> 1:33:43.519 stretch to um glorify h India's past and and precluling 1:33:43.520 --> 1:33:45.800 your past in such a respect. I don't think any 1:33:46.600 --> 1:33:51.680 people's free cluling your past should be excessively glory glorified 1:33:51.920 --> 1:34:02.479 or um like mythologized, mythologized, yeah, romanticized, because I feel 1:34:02.479 --> 1:34:06.839 as though one that clouds our judgments UM and critical 1:34:07.000 --> 1:34:10.080 eye for the aspects of you know, past societies that 1:34:10.240 --> 1:34:12.479 do do it need to be challenged, do need to 1:34:12.520 --> 1:34:15.879 be changed um. I think that's part of my issues. 1:34:15.880 --> 1:34:18.800 So that she is this idea that you know, if 1:34:18.920 --> 1:34:24.479 things just go back to uh, these sorts of villages 1:34:24.720 --> 1:34:28.320 and village community, is that everything else would just be okay. 1:34:28.360 --> 1:34:30.320 But of course there were other issues that Inki was 1:34:30.360 --> 1:34:34.640 teaing with even Priortic colonization, you know, in terms of sexism, 1:34:34.760 --> 1:34:39.280 in terms of the control of the cast system and 1:34:39.360 --> 1:34:45.000 the higher casts UM, and the other aspects of Indian 1:34:45.000 --> 1:34:50.920 society that of course were made um more surveyor by 1:34:51.000 --> 1:34:55.160 British communism. Colorism, I think is one of those issues 1:34:55.200 --> 1:34:58.639 that of course existed Priortic colonization, but was made worse 1:34:58.800 --> 1:35:02.840 by the British and the presence in your subcontinent. But 1:35:02.920 --> 1:35:07.200 I think striking that balance of uh, cleaning, learning from 1:35:07.320 --> 1:35:11.000 respecting that um that prequeling the past, but also in 1:35:11.080 --> 1:35:14.799 our equal on our projects, not excessively romanticizing the past 1:35:15.280 --> 1:35:20.120 in an effort to progress towards the future these days, 1:35:20.200 --> 1:35:22.479 I believe SOWE actually is most known for its focus 1:35:22.600 --> 1:35:27.600 on protect protectionism. It's sustained foreign important investment. But it 1:35:27.720 --> 1:35:31.439 was of course a very wide spanning philosophy. It was 1:35:32.200 --> 1:35:35.679 a vision um and a philosophy of life that Gandhi 1:35:35.760 --> 1:35:39.519 held his entire life. That's I It's not something that 1:35:39.560 --> 1:35:42.720 I was familiar with prior to looking into it and 1:35:42.880 --> 1:35:49.360 my continued pursuit of decluding your perspectives and explorations of 1:35:49.960 --> 1:35:54.160 various post cluing projects and philosophies. But it's something that 1:35:54.320 --> 1:35:59.400 I've appreciated despite my criticisms or some aspects of it. 1:36:00.320 --> 1:36:04.519 Asked about all I have FIOL today. You can find 1:36:04.600 --> 1:36:08.599 me on YouTube at andreism, on Twitter dot com, slash 1:36:08.680 --> 1:36:11.320 and It's cool seeing true, and you could support me 1:36:11.439 --> 1:36:30.639 on Patreon dot com, slash sat Drew, You're welcome today 1:36:30.680 --> 1:36:32.920 could happen here a podcast that's being done for the 1:36:32.960 --> 1:36:34.920 first time and not the second time because we had 1:36:34.960 --> 1:36:38.599 bike problems. We did not just record a very funny 1:36:38.640 --> 1:36:41.559 intro that is now completely lost. Yeah, you'll you'll you'll 1:36:41.600 --> 1:36:43.320 never hear it. You'll you'll never you ever know what 1:36:43.439 --> 1:36:50.000 great fun we had. The joy was in the creation. 1:36:50.080 --> 1:36:54.120 They're not not in the sharing. Yeah, process, not an 1:36:54.160 --> 1:36:58.519 event structure, etcetera, etcetera. So I'm I'm mia, I'm a 1:36:58.680 --> 1:37:02.640 I'm gonna doing this episode. Also Garrison is here Hello, hi, 1:37:02.760 --> 1:37:06.680 and also James, Hi, I'm recording. So we're good now. 1:37:08.720 --> 1:37:12.160 Yet the good news is stunning Lee, as as as 1:37:12.240 --> 1:37:14.120 as much as it seems we are now more prepared 1:37:14.160 --> 1:37:18.360 to record this episode. I when we're last time. So yeah, 1:37:18.400 --> 1:37:19.960 well what are we? What are we? What are we 1:37:20.040 --> 1:37:22.240 talking about? We we we are We are talking about 1:37:22.479 --> 1:37:25.960 the age of the gender bureaucrat. So as as people 1:37:26.000 --> 1:37:28.320 are probably aware, there is a raft of anti trans 1:37:28.400 --> 1:37:31.599 bill sweeping through state legislatures um. The latest of these 1:37:31.640 --> 1:37:33.560 bills to pass as a time of recording is the 1:37:33.600 --> 1:37:35.960 bill in Utah which is banned miners from getting gender 1:37:36.000 --> 1:37:39.280 affirming care like hormone therapy, hormone blockers, and any kind 1:37:39.280 --> 1:37:42.080 of gender affirming surgery for anyone who's not already receiving them. 1:37:42.960 --> 1:37:46.400 Does does the Utah one also banned like therapy like 1:37:47.080 --> 1:37:51.080 talk therapy. No, but they're there, So on the one hand, 1:37:51.120 --> 1:37:52.680 doesn't band talk therapy. On the other hand, there's a 1:37:52.680 --> 1:37:55.160 provision in there that I think might also suggest that 1:37:55.240 --> 1:38:00.840 people do conversion therapy. So that's great. Um it fucking sucks. 1:38:00.960 --> 1:38:04.599 Ass uh yeah, kid, kids are going to die because 1:38:04.640 --> 1:38:07.200 of this bill. The people who are writing and signing 1:38:07.240 --> 1:38:09.240 these bills know that kids are going to die. We 1:38:09.360 --> 1:38:12.000 know this because Utah's Governor, Spencer Cox, who is the 1:38:12.040 --> 1:38:15.080 guy who signed the bill, vetoed an earlier ban on 1:38:15.160 --> 1:38:18.760 trans athletes participating in school sports, specifically signing the risk 1:38:18.800 --> 1:38:21.519 of suicide. So she knows this is going to kill kids. 1:38:21.560 --> 1:38:24.760 He signs us anyways, and we are now living in 1:38:24.920 --> 1:38:27.400 what I call the age of the gender bearacrat um. 1:38:27.720 --> 1:38:30.280 We we're gonna spend We're gonna have another episode later 1:38:30.400 --> 1:38:32.400 on where we spend a lot of time going through 1:38:32.479 --> 1:38:35.680 all of the individual bills and the stuff Trump has 1:38:35.680 --> 1:38:40.040 been saying about this, because Jesus Christ, pretty pretty pretty 1:38:40.040 --> 1:38:43.200 grim stuff that they're I mean, on the one hand, 1:38:43.840 --> 1:38:46.519 making making trans people out to be the boogeyman did 1:38:46.560 --> 1:38:49.000 not work in their favor greatly in the mid terms, 1:38:49.720 --> 1:38:52.080 but it seems like they're not trying to. They're not 1:38:52.160 --> 1:38:55.920 trying to change their tactics here. They are still going 1:38:55.960 --> 1:38:58.639 all in based on Trump's speech from a few days ago, 1:38:58.800 --> 1:39:02.639 the of of using the using the transgender menace as 1:39:02.720 --> 1:39:05.560 the as the greatest threat to America and the and 1:39:05.640 --> 1:39:08.200 the and the nuclear family. So we'll see how that 1:39:08.320 --> 1:39:11.519 goes for them, like electorally. But it's pretty bad rhetoric 1:39:11.600 --> 1:39:15.080 to see flying around. I think they it does really 1:39:15.120 --> 1:39:17.640 well with the people who who allowed and like, like 1:39:18.000 --> 1:39:20.639 you often see this in like primaries, right, like people 1:39:20.680 --> 1:39:23.200 pushed to the limits of their party, because that plays 1:39:23.240 --> 1:39:25.120 well with the most politicized people. And for sure, if 1:39:25.160 --> 1:39:27.840 you're going to a Trump rally, like three years after 1:39:27.960 --> 1:39:31.880 he got kicked out, yeah, you are also a bigot. Yeah. 1:39:34.000 --> 1:39:36.599 But before we do that, I I want to before 1:39:36.640 --> 1:39:38.760 we actually really do an EPSO on this, I want 1:39:38.800 --> 1:39:40.840 to take a look at the sort of bureaucratic grounding 1:39:40.880 --> 1:39:43.479 for this entire thing. And to do that we need 1:39:43.520 --> 1:39:46.440 to look up gender bureaucrats and the American gender bureaucracy. 1:39:47.360 --> 1:39:49.200 So I'm going to cite my sources a bit and 1:39:49.320 --> 1:39:52.719 say that I stole this from a incredibly unlikely source, 1:39:52.800 --> 1:39:56.360 which is the Bowist Review. Of Shrek to what stop? 1:40:00.000 --> 1:40:03.320 Have a speak those words again? This is the Mauice 1:40:03.400 --> 1:40:06.040 Review of Strict two is one of the three great 1:40:06.120 --> 1:40:09.360 sort of text of American maoism. There's this one, there's 1:40:09.360 --> 1:40:12.320 Torgeable Attractive People's War the Florida Everglades, and then there's 1:40:12.360 --> 1:40:15.080 that time the the RCP got into a fight with 1:40:15.120 --> 1:40:18.000 the PSL and they're both trying to grab each other's signs. Amazing, 1:40:18.200 --> 1:40:22.080 amazing stuff. But unfortunately, you know, having having come up 1:40:22.160 --> 1:40:26.160 with the term gender bureaucrat, which is incredibly useful their maoists, 1:40:26.200 --> 1:40:31.080 so that they're constitutionally and politically just unable to understand 1:40:31.160 --> 1:40:34.120 what a bureaucrat is. So I have now stolen this 1:40:34.320 --> 1:40:38.920 term and I'm using it for other purposes reappropriate. No, 1:40:39.080 --> 1:40:41.880 it's stealing their mauists. It's it's never wrong to steal 1:40:41.920 --> 1:40:47.960 from maoists. Okay, fine, So all right, it's get getting 1:40:48.000 --> 1:40:50.680 back sort of serious stuff to understand what this is. 1:40:50.840 --> 1:40:52.799 I want to talk about sort of the term assigned 1:40:52.840 --> 1:40:55.640 gender at birth. Um. This used to be a like, 1:40:55.720 --> 1:40:58.479 I used to be fairly common kind of in in 1:40:58.800 --> 1:41:01.439 in circles to like refer to people is like a 1:41:01.600 --> 1:41:03.599 mab or a FABS like a side mail at Earth 1:41:03.640 --> 1:41:06.280 or assigned female at Earth. And it's a it kind 1:41:06.320 --> 1:41:09.120 of sucks as the term. It's been replaced by other stuff. 1:41:09.960 --> 1:41:14.439 But I think there's something important here, which is I 1:41:14.560 --> 1:41:16.400 want to go back and look at the assigned part, 1:41:17.439 --> 1:41:19.080 and I want to I want to look at the 1:41:19.120 --> 1:41:21.360 cecifically the part about the gender being assigned, because I 1:41:21.360 --> 1:41:23.280 think there's something that gets lost in sort of popular 1:41:23.320 --> 1:41:26.240 discussions of this, which is that when when people think 1:41:26.280 --> 1:41:28.720 about like the term like the assignment of gender, right, 1:41:28.760 --> 1:41:30.840 they think about it as something that's created socially. Right. 1:41:30.880 --> 1:41:33.760 They think about it as you know, people being like 1:41:33.920 --> 1:41:36.080 pressured to perform one kind of gender or another by 1:41:36.080 --> 1:41:38.479 the people around them, sort of by their families, by 1:41:38.560 --> 1:41:40.960 just like people walking down the street. And this is 1:41:41.000 --> 1:41:44.559 all true, but there's also something else going on here. 1:41:44.560 --> 1:41:47.360 And that's something else going on here is we need 1:41:47.439 --> 1:41:50.799 to ask ourselves when we talk about someone's gender being assigned, 1:41:51.000 --> 1:41:54.200 who is it being assigned by? Because this is an 1:41:54.240 --> 1:41:58.360 actual specific person, right, The person who actually assigns your 1:41:58.400 --> 1:42:00.799 gender is a doctor or sometimes a nurse or a midwife. 1:42:01.439 --> 1:42:05.240 And this person is the first gender bureaucrat they're the 1:42:05.240 --> 1:42:07.320 first gender bereacraft because they are the person who sits 1:42:07.360 --> 1:42:12.960 down and puts down what your gender is on a form. Now, Okay, 1:42:14.000 --> 1:42:17.799 you may be asking yourself, right, mio, why should anyone 1:42:17.920 --> 1:42:20.920 care that your gender is now on a piece of paper? Well, 1:42:20.960 --> 1:42:25.400 because and also maybe like they're they're also mainly at 1:42:25.439 --> 1:42:28.080 least now in like a in like a medical scientific sense, 1:42:28.120 --> 1:42:31.559 it's mainly like, oh, what parts do you have? Um, 1:42:31.760 --> 1:42:35.360 and then using those parts as as a carryover for 1:42:35.560 --> 1:42:39.080 gender as it's been modeled after ever since we stopped 1:42:39.160 --> 1:42:43.400 dressing boys and girls and dresses and all the same clothing. Yeah, 1:42:43.520 --> 1:42:46.360 and and well we'll get into sort of like how 1:42:46.479 --> 1:42:49.040 this has sort of changed over time. But okay, so 1:42:49.120 --> 1:42:51.439 to understand why this actually matters, I think what we 1:42:51.520 --> 1:42:54.840 need to talk about what bureaucracy actually is, because this 1:42:55.000 --> 1:42:56.880 is a thing that used to be fairly common talk 1:42:56.880 --> 1:42:58.639 about on the left and then people have stopped doing 1:42:58.800 --> 1:43:02.439 over the past maybe like half decade. The anthropologist David 1:43:02.479 --> 1:43:05.720 Graeber wrote extensively about bureaucracy throughout his career. Probably his 1:43:05.800 --> 1:43:07.880 most famous book is one of his later worst, called 1:43:07.920 --> 1:43:10.280 Bullshit Jobs. But I want to go back to an 1:43:10.320 --> 1:43:12.839 earlier thing that he wrote called The Utopia of Rules. 1:43:13.439 --> 1:43:15.040 I'm gonna, I'm gonna. I'm gonna read a little bit 1:43:15.040 --> 1:43:18.719 of one of the first sections of it. Bureaucratic knowledge 1:43:18.800 --> 1:43:23.960 is all about schematization. In practice, bureaucratic procedure invariably means 1:43:24.040 --> 1:43:27.599 ignoring all the subtleties of real life existence and reducing 1:43:27.720 --> 1:43:32.200 everything to preconceive mechanical or statistical formula. Whether it's a 1:43:32.280 --> 1:43:35.679 matter of forms, rule statistics, or questionnaires, it is always 1:43:35.720 --> 1:43:39.320 a matter of simplification. Typically, it's not very different from 1:43:39.320 --> 1:43:41.040 the boss who walks into the kitchen to make an 1:43:41.120 --> 1:43:44.400 arbitrary snap pocsition as to what went wrong. In either case, 1:43:45.000 --> 1:43:47.559 it is a matter of applying very simple, pre existing 1:43:47.600 --> 1:43:52.800 templates to complex and often ambiguous situations. The result often 1:43:52.920 --> 1:43:56.000 leaves those forced to deal with bureaucratic administration with the 1:43:56.040 --> 1:43:58.920 impression that they are dealing with people who have, for 1:43:59.040 --> 1:44:01.200 some arbitrary reason, decided to put on a set of 1:44:01.240 --> 1:44:03.240 glasses that only allows them to see two percent of 1:44:03.280 --> 1:44:05.960 what's in front of them. So, you know, we we 1:44:06.160 --> 1:44:10.360 can see some of the the core aspects of bureaucracy here, right. 1:44:10.560 --> 1:44:14.519 Bureaucracy inherently is an act of simplification. Um. Because of 1:44:14.560 --> 1:44:16.920 sort of the tech like literally the technical systems of 1:44:16.960 --> 1:44:19.680 what a bureaucracy is, and because of how it how 1:44:19.720 --> 1:44:22.479 it stores information, how it bows information around, it can 1:44:22.560 --> 1:44:25.800 only see the world in incredibly sort of simplified terms. Yeah, 1:44:25.920 --> 1:44:28.679 it has to like abstract these things that make assumption 1:44:28.720 --> 1:44:30.920 that's based off those abstractions in order to have any 1:44:31.000 --> 1:44:35.400 type of functionality. Yeah, so so great. Grebor later says 1:44:35.520 --> 1:44:37.760 that like this, you know, Okay, on the one hand, 1:44:37.840 --> 1:44:41.040 like the sort of simplification and model making that goes 1:44:41.080 --> 1:44:43.360 on into bureaucracy can be really really frustrating with you 1:44:43.439 --> 1:44:44.920 have to interact with it. But on the other hand, 1:44:45.200 --> 1:44:48.479 you know, so the reduction of the complex to the simple, 1:44:48.640 --> 1:44:52.519 it's not just you know, a thing that's inherently evil 1:44:52.600 --> 1:44:54.640 in its in and of itself, it's the basis of 1:44:54.720 --> 1:44:58.080 all thoughts because you know, like we we we actually 1:44:58.200 --> 1:45:00.400 can't and like in and of ourselves s us the 1:45:00.479 --> 1:45:02.920 world by immediately holding in our minds all of the 1:45:03.000 --> 1:45:04.840 information at one time, right, the way we understand the 1:45:04.880 --> 1:45:08.200 world as simplications and models. Yeah, and we we it's 1:45:08.240 --> 1:45:12.800 a pattern recognition, recreating recursive spot loops that give us 1:45:12.920 --> 1:45:15.439 the very concept of meaning, and like that's how we 1:45:15.560 --> 1:45:20.760 know what words are. Yeah, and so true, you know, 1:45:21.120 --> 1:45:23.280 you can you can, you can look it's it's also 1:45:23.360 --> 1:45:25.320 possible to take a lot of data and make nonsense 1:45:25.400 --> 1:45:27.040 out of it. And this is this is this is 1:45:27.040 --> 1:45:34.479 a field called economics market Yeah but yeah, you know, okay, 1:45:34.560 --> 1:45:37.000 so it's it's this is also the basis of all 1:45:37.040 --> 1:45:39.639 social theory, right, Like, like social theory is about taking 1:45:39.680 --> 1:45:43.320 a bunch of incredibly complicated like in messy relationships and 1:45:43.400 --> 1:45:46.360 just statistical stuff and just the noise of people doing 1:45:46.640 --> 1:45:48.920 doing things in everyday lives and trying to establish sort 1:45:48.960 --> 1:45:52.280 of like ways of understanding them. And you know, this 1:45:52.439 --> 1:45:54.479 in some sense is a kind of violence, right It's 1:45:54.520 --> 1:45:58.160 it's a violence of simplification. But on the other hand, 1:45:58.240 --> 1:46:00.880 you know, the violence you're during true reality here bears 1:46:00.920 --> 1:46:03.519 more resemble to sort of like Bacoonian's creative destruction. Right 1:46:03.560 --> 1:46:06.080 you're you know, you're imposing a kind of violence on reality, 1:46:06.960 --> 1:46:09.280 you know, in in simplifying and destroying a bunch of 1:46:09.320 --> 1:46:11.160 aspects of it so you can understand just like one 1:46:11.200 --> 1:46:13.120 part of it at a time. But you know, this. 1:46:13.320 --> 1:46:14.840 This is a useful thing, right, It's how we think 1:46:15.000 --> 1:46:18.160 like we we literally couldn't do anything without it. But 1:46:18.960 --> 1:46:22.360 as Graver puts it, the problem of right The problems 1:46:22.360 --> 1:46:26.040 arise at the moment that violence is no longer metaphorical. Here, 1:46:26.280 --> 1:46:29.559 let me turn from imaginary cops to real ones. Jim Cooper, 1:46:29.720 --> 1:46:33.240 a former l a p D officer turned sociologist, has 1:46:33.320 --> 1:46:35.800 observed at the overwhelming majority of those who end up 1:46:35.840 --> 1:46:38.519 getting beaten or otherwise brutalized by police turned out to 1:46:38.520 --> 1:46:41.719 be innocent of any crime. Cops don't beat up burglars, 1:46:41.800 --> 1:46:45.200 he writes. The reason, he explained, is simple. The one 1:46:45.320 --> 1:46:48.719 thing most guaranteed to provoke a violent reaction from police 1:46:48.800 --> 1:46:51.160 is a challenge to their right to As he puts it, 1:46:51.439 --> 1:46:55.479 defined the situation. That is to say, yeah, that that 1:46:55.760 --> 1:47:00.240 that perfectly describes any any physical interaction with police. You know, 1:47:00.439 --> 1:47:02.320 this is one of the things I like about Greater 1:47:02.439 --> 1:47:03.560 because I mean, this is this is something that I 1:47:03.640 --> 1:47:05.559 noticed and I was in academia, is it is very 1:47:05.720 --> 1:47:08.360 very easy to tell who, like when you're reading a 1:47:08.439 --> 1:47:10.920 theorist social theorist talking about stuff like who has been 1:47:10.960 --> 1:47:17.839 to your gas before it, who hasn't. Yeah, I'm always 1:47:17.880 --> 1:47:20.080 reminded when we talk about like academics who have a 1:47:20.120 --> 1:47:23.880 real life of that picture of Edward said throwing stones. Yeah, 1:47:25.840 --> 1:47:30.200 most based academic thing anyone his death yea. And like graver, Graver, 1:47:30.320 --> 1:47:31.680 I think, I think it's been to your gas on 1:47:31.760 --> 1:47:35.200 five continents or something like that, Like he's gotten around, 1:47:35.320 --> 1:47:39.160 he's he's on a lot of stuff. Yeah, it is. 1:47:39.240 --> 1:47:42.120 It is always nice whenever you can whenever these types 1:47:42.160 --> 1:47:45.000 of theorists who like, you know, they often will philosophize 1:47:45.040 --> 1:47:46.920 about like the nature of power, in the nature of 1:47:47.000 --> 1:47:48.880 the state, and sometimes it can get a little bit 1:47:48.920 --> 1:47:52.080 wishy washy, and it's nice when there's people who do that. Also, 1:47:52.320 --> 1:47:55.240 you know, like the material like the material reality of 1:47:55.400 --> 1:48:00.599 like power and how that yeah like how how how 1:48:00.720 --> 1:48:03.320 like the how like the philosophy of power transfers over 1:48:03.400 --> 1:48:06.479 to street politics is always always an interesting difference to 1:48:06.840 --> 1:48:12.400 to compare compare various theory too. In I was teaching 1:48:12.439 --> 1:48:14.680 a world history course and obviously it's remote because of 1:48:14.760 --> 1:48:18.519 the pandemic, right, um, so, like we were just logging 1:48:18.520 --> 1:48:20.800 in the morning and like fully aware that I had 1:48:20.880 --> 1:48:23.559 seen and been tear gassed with some of my students 1:48:23.640 --> 1:48:26.160 a night before and then just discussed like how the 1:48:26.200 --> 1:48:28.479 state has a monopoly on violence. People are get o 1:48:28.560 --> 1:48:31.240 the fucking lines up. Looks like you've got a massive 1:48:31.320 --> 1:48:35.760 bruise again. Yeah, it was. It was very instructive and 1:48:35.840 --> 1:48:39.439 everyone should do it in their history classes. Yeah, okay, 1:48:39.479 --> 1:48:42.080 So I'm gonna keep reading from this. Cool, because there's 1:48:42.080 --> 1:48:43.160 a couple of more things I want. I want to 1:48:43.200 --> 1:48:45.479 get out of this. So okay. So you know he's 1:48:45.479 --> 1:48:47.559 talking about how, like you, you get a violent reaction 1:48:47.600 --> 1:48:51.479 from challenging the right to define the situation. That is, 1:48:51.600 --> 1:48:54.519 to say, no, this isn't a possible crime situation. This 1:48:54.640 --> 1:48:57.559 is a citizen who pays your salary walking his dog situation. 1:48:57.640 --> 1:49:01.120 So shove off. Let alone the in varyably disastrous. Wait, 1:49:01.200 --> 1:49:03.639 why are you handcuffing that guy? He didn't do anything. 1:49:04.320 --> 1:49:07.880 It's talking back above all that inspires beat downs and 1:49:07.960 --> 1:49:13.240 means challenging whatever administrative rubric and orderly a disorderly crowd, 1:49:13.360 --> 1:49:17.000 a properly or improperly registered vehicle has been applied by 1:49:17.040 --> 1:49:21.680 the officers discretionary judgments. The police truncheon is precisely the 1:49:21.840 --> 1:49:25.960 point where the state's bureaucratic imperative for imposing simple administrative 1:49:26.000 --> 1:49:30.080 schema and it's monopoly on coercive force come together. It 1:49:30.200 --> 1:49:34.200 only makes sense then that bureaucratic violence should consist first 1:49:34.240 --> 1:49:38.160 and foremost on attacks on those who insists on alternative 1:49:38.200 --> 1:49:41.920 schemas or interpretations. At the same time, if one accepts 1:49:42.040 --> 1:49:45.719 John Page's famous definition of mature intelligence is the ability 1:49:45.760 --> 1:49:50.240 to coordinate between multiple perspectives or multiple or possible perspectives, 1:49:50.840 --> 1:49:54.080 one can see here precisely how bureaucratic power, at the 1:49:54.120 --> 1:49:57.360 moment it turns to violence, becomes literally a form of 1:49:57.439 --> 1:50:02.360 infantile stupidity. Yeah, it's it is this weird, like childlike 1:50:02.479 --> 1:50:05.880 sense that is that is an interesting combination of thoughts. 1:50:07.120 --> 1:50:11.760 That's a fantastic I love it. I like literally read 1:50:11.840 --> 1:50:13.720 reading this book is like one of the things that 1:50:14.040 --> 1:50:18.320 really sort of like committed me to anarchism because you know, 1:50:18.479 --> 1:50:21.760 like it's it's a it's a book that actually takes 1:50:21.880 --> 1:50:24.800 violence seriously, and you know, while talking about bureaucracy was 1:50:24.880 --> 1:50:27.320 something that really doesn't I don't know, and it's a 1:50:27.360 --> 1:50:29.080 good critique and we kind of have lost it over 1:50:29.160 --> 1:50:31.719 the years. I feel like we've gotten into arguments about 1:50:31.800 --> 1:50:35.120 this sort of thing when discussing the usefulness of like 1:50:35.280 --> 1:50:39.000 a Fuco's theories of power and like and like how 1:50:39.040 --> 1:50:42.160 power functions, You've definitely brought up this passage before talking 1:50:42.240 --> 1:50:45.120 about how the extent of that is always is always 1:50:45.160 --> 1:50:49.479 measured by where the truncheon is hitting on, like the 1:50:49.600 --> 1:50:53.280 actual street level. Yeah, but you know, okay, Graber isn't 1:50:53.320 --> 1:50:56.200 writing about gender here really, right, He's he's mostly writing 1:50:56.240 --> 1:50:58.360 about sort of direct police violence. Although I mean it 1:50:58.640 --> 1:51:00.400 is worth noting that, like all the stuff that writing 1:51:00.479 --> 1:51:03.559 is informed by sort of like like by by actually 1:51:03.560 --> 1:51:06.439 specifically by by by actual critical race theory and by 1:51:07.080 --> 1:51:10.960 sort of like uh like femder standpoints theory stuff. Um, 1:51:11.760 --> 1:51:13.960 but you know, okay, if if if you, if you, 1:51:14.040 --> 1:51:17.160 if you look back at this right and you look 1:51:17.200 --> 1:51:20.720 back at sort of you know, the point at which 1:51:20.760 --> 1:51:25.200 the state's bureaucratic impetue, imperative for imposing simple administrative schemes, 1:51:25.280 --> 1:51:27.439 and the monopoly and force come together or specifically the 1:51:27.520 --> 1:51:30.559 parts that are about right, Like, the way you get 1:51:30.600 --> 1:51:34.320 a violent reaction is by being something that being something 1:51:34.400 --> 1:51:38.720 that a bereacrat thinks you're not. Yeah, that is it's 1:51:38.800 --> 1:51:42.719 challenging their their their version of reality and the challenge 1:51:42.720 --> 1:51:47.439 it's challenging the validity of their perception of reality. Yeah, 1:51:47.520 --> 1:51:49.679 and you know, and if you think about this about 1:51:49.680 --> 1:51:54.200 five seconds, if you're a transperson, that's not good because someone, 1:51:54.360 --> 1:51:57.519 a bureaucrat, has already assigned you a gender at birth, 1:51:58.080 --> 1:52:00.800 and if you're not that gender, things are going to 1:52:00.880 --> 1:52:02.880 get really bad really quickly. Well, do you know what 1:52:03.160 --> 1:52:06.439 bureaucracies are actually worthwhile and things that you should definitely 1:52:07.040 --> 1:52:10.840 consider greatly is all of the biaucracies that support the 1:52:10.880 --> 1:52:14.920 products and services that that funded this podcast. Well, I 1:52:15.040 --> 1:52:17.960 hope you enjoy your your your your five new bars 1:52:18.000 --> 1:52:21.080 of gold. Thank you for supporting the show. Um, we 1:52:21.200 --> 1:52:25.280 are back. Uh, let's talk about gender and the bureaucracy 1:52:25.400 --> 1:52:29.479 that seeks to contain it violence. So you know, if 1:52:29.600 --> 1:52:33.120 if if if you are, for example, intersects, the point 1:52:33.200 --> 1:52:36.720 at which the state's bureaucratic imperative for imposing simple administrative 1:52:36.760 --> 1:52:39.400 schema and it's monopoly on course if force comes together, 1:52:40.080 --> 1:52:43.680 is on the operating table of the hospital where you're born. Um, 1:52:44.200 --> 1:52:47.240 you know, first you a doctor assigns you a fucking gender, 1:52:47.600 --> 1:52:49.560 which is never intersects by the way, the doctor just 1:52:49.640 --> 1:52:51.640 decides whether you're male or female, and then you know, 1:52:51.760 --> 1:52:55.439 puts that gender und your birth certificate. Um, it's technically 1:52:55.520 --> 1:52:57.839 possible in some places to get it changed to intersect 1:52:57.920 --> 1:52:59.879 later in life. But when I say it's technically possible, 1:53:01.000 --> 1:53:02.760 I there might even want people who've done it. The 1:53:02.800 --> 1:53:05.280 first person who we know ever change their gender to 1:53:05.360 --> 1:53:11.479 intersect did it in TV. So yeah, I'm sure there 1:53:11.560 --> 1:53:17.000 were I mean, pre bureauqucy indigenous societies. I know that. Yeah, 1:53:17.000 --> 1:53:18.439 but this is this yeah, this is yeah, I mean 1:53:18.520 --> 1:53:21.639 like yeah, like and and this is like the way 1:53:21.760 --> 1:53:25.479 that like we treat intersect people also has gotten worse. 1:53:27.600 --> 1:53:29.479 Like yeah, and we're gonna get into this, but you 1:53:29.560 --> 1:53:31.560 but it's like it's like, you know, this is a 1:53:31.720 --> 1:53:35.559 very like it's a very obvious thing where there's clearly 1:53:35.600 --> 1:53:39.040 more than two genders, and how how society reacts to that, 1:53:39.200 --> 1:53:42.639 I think says you know, A, it's it's an enormous 1:53:42.680 --> 1:53:46.559 sort of like it's something enormously impact intersect people, right, 1:53:46.640 --> 1:53:49.600 like you know, you have like an incredible amount of 1:53:49.640 --> 1:53:54.160 violence that is flicted onto them. And then secondly, the 1:53:55.640 --> 1:53:58.320 way intersect people is dealt with, it's something that reveals 1:53:58.320 --> 1:54:00.400 a lot about how the society is to look at 1:54:00.439 --> 1:54:01.960 gender and how society is going to look at the 1:54:02.040 --> 1:54:04.960 enforcement of gender. I think on the point of how 1:54:06.200 --> 1:54:08.080 it's in a lot of ways, the treatment of intersect 1:54:08.120 --> 1:54:10.840 people has gotten has gotten worse in the past like 1:54:10.880 --> 1:54:14.719 a few years. I feel like as the bureaucracy grows, 1:54:15.520 --> 1:54:18.600 the amount of violence that is necessary to maintain it 1:54:19.160 --> 1:54:24.320 also grows, and the bigger any any small thing threatens 1:54:24.360 --> 1:54:27.519 the validity of the entire bureaucracy. So they have to 1:54:27.600 --> 1:54:30.240 come down hard on anything that that is that is 1:54:30.560 --> 1:54:34.040 like deviant from that because they need to maintain the 1:54:34.120 --> 1:54:37.000 validity of the system that they have built. I think 1:54:37.040 --> 1:54:39.360 that's definitely an aspect. And the other thing that's really 1:54:39.400 --> 1:54:41.400 really bad is that, you know, we're going to talk 1:54:41.400 --> 1:54:44.400 about board this more a bit later, but like the 1:54:44.720 --> 1:54:48.040 actual capacity of the bureaucracy to enforce this stuff has 1:54:48.160 --> 1:54:51.080 increased so dramatically, even in the last fifty years. It 1:54:51.280 --> 1:54:54.240 is like like the the U s is a if 1:54:54.680 --> 1:54:58.000 to someone to someone living in right, the modern US 1:54:58.080 --> 1:55:01.680 is an incomprehensibly bureaucratic society. It is like like it 1:55:02.600 --> 1:55:05.760 even like the even like the like you know, like 1:55:05.840 --> 1:55:07.280 like the sort of people like yeah, like even like 1:55:07.440 --> 1:55:10.360 the most sort of like totalitarian style on is bureaucrat 1:55:10.600 --> 1:55:13.000 like looks at the US and it's like, what the 1:55:13.080 --> 1:55:15.560 funk guys, you guys are taking taking bureaucracy too far, 1:55:15.960 --> 1:55:18.920 Like even just like the surveillance capacities definitely would like 1:55:19.000 --> 1:55:20.880 you would have loved that to to be to be fair, 1:55:20.920 --> 1:55:22.640 to be fair, the East Germans did really well with 1:55:22.760 --> 1:55:27.000 what they had, but I think it's really so. I 1:55:27.080 --> 1:55:29.400 think also just in terms of how surveillance impacts the 1:55:29.440 --> 1:55:32.160 way you're able to do gender when you're well and 1:55:33.400 --> 1:55:35.880 when you're getting targeted advertisements for stuff based on your 1:55:35.880 --> 1:55:38.720 Internet searches, they're like that that that's one side of it, 1:55:39.160 --> 1:55:41.320 and there's other sides of it in terms of like 1:55:41.400 --> 1:55:45.360 you know, people people seeking to make like different gender 1:55:45.440 --> 1:55:48.280 presentations illegal. How the how how that had That type 1:55:48.280 --> 1:55:52.800 of surveillance will eventually lead into pretty pretty druckon Ian well. 1:55:52.880 --> 1:55:56.760 And and I think I think in a lot of ways, 1:55:57.080 --> 1:55:59.440 like the violence that has done to intersect kids is 1:56:00.320 --> 1:56:02.000 sort of it is one of the sort of origin 1:56:02.080 --> 1:56:05.080 points of this, right, Um, I I do actually want 1:56:05.120 --> 1:56:06.880 I want to sort of get into what what this 1:56:07.040 --> 1:56:09.320 is a little bit um since the nice in sixties. 1:56:09.320 --> 1:56:11.440 And again that what I'm saying this like this stuff 1:56:11.520 --> 1:56:16.160 is kind of recent, right, UM. Doctors have started commonly 1:56:16.240 --> 1:56:19.360 performing non consensual surgery and intersex kids to force them 1:56:19.440 --> 1:56:21.920 to conform to a gender. UM. Here's from a two 1:56:21.960 --> 1:56:25.080 thousand and thirteen report from the United Nations Special Rapporteur 1:56:25.120 --> 1:56:28.680 on Torture that's sited by Human Rights Watch. Children who 1:56:28.720 --> 1:56:31.960 are born with atypical sex characteristics are often subject to 1:56:32.040 --> 1:56:38.959 irreversible sex assignments, involuntary sterilization, involuntary genital normalization, surgery performed 1:56:39.000 --> 1:56:41.440 without their informed consent or that of the parents, in 1:56:41.480 --> 1:56:44.480 an attempt quote, in an attempt to fix their sex, 1:56:45.000 --> 1:56:49.320 leaving them with permanent, permanent, irreversible infertility and causing severe 1:56:49.400 --> 1:56:56.200 mental suffering. And this is fucking horrible. It happens, it's 1:56:56.240 --> 1:56:58.240 all the time, and on all of the people who 1:56:58.320 --> 1:57:01.000 write these fucking laws that are like giving giving someone 1:57:01.080 --> 1:57:04.280 gender affirming care is like needling them specifically carve out 1:57:04.360 --> 1:57:07.520 sections so that doctors can keep sucking doing this intersex kids, 1:57:08.080 --> 1:57:13.320 And it's horrible. It's really interesting how like UM, so 1:57:13.480 --> 1:57:16.120 often the sports field is a terrain where this kind 1:57:16.160 --> 1:57:19.040 of gets hashed out or like this brutality happens for 1:57:19.120 --> 1:57:23.160 the first time, Like the sports governing authorities have been 1:57:23.240 --> 1:57:29.320 fucking brutalizing intersex athletes for fifty years now, and every 1:57:29.360 --> 1:57:31.920 time it's because, yeah, they'll and they'll they'll put forth 1:57:31.960 --> 1:57:35.120 an argument and then lose in court most of the 1:57:35.200 --> 1:57:38.560 time because they'll they'll seek to advance like a very 1:57:38.840 --> 1:57:41.960 narrow definition of gender based on chromosomeality or something or 1:57:42.000 --> 1:57:47.040 testosterone levels or something, and then demonstrably this binary doesn't exist, 1:57:47.280 --> 1:57:49.880 right like, and then they'll lose, and they'll respond to 1:57:50.000 --> 1:57:55.080 losing by fucking destroying that person. Yeah, it's there are 1:57:55.120 --> 1:57:58.480 plenty of cases people can confined in history of that happening, 1:57:58.520 --> 1:58:00.440 and yeah, it's sucked up and and and I think 1:58:00.720 --> 1:58:02.400 the more I've been thinking about this, the more I 1:58:02.520 --> 1:58:04.920 think that the sort of like that a lot of 1:58:04.960 --> 1:58:09.040 what turfism is is this kind of like it's it's 1:58:09.080 --> 1:58:12.600 attempting to take the bureaucratic categories as literal truth. But 1:58:12.880 --> 1:58:15.040 that doesn't work. It doesn't It doesn't actually work on 1:58:15.120 --> 1:58:16.920 a sort of either on a scientific level or on 1:58:16.960 --> 1:58:19.720 a sort of more philosophical level, because again, what what 1:58:20.000 --> 1:58:22.600 what what that sort of bureaucratic assignment is is a 1:58:22.800 --> 1:58:26.640 is a radical simplification of reality that destroys it destroys 1:58:26.680 --> 1:58:29.000 reality itself in order to create a sort of like 1:58:29.200 --> 1:58:31.520 an M or and F on a page. And when 1:58:31.560 --> 1:58:32.800 you when you try to go back into the real 1:58:32.840 --> 1:58:34.760 world that it doesn't work. It only works when you 1:58:34.760 --> 1:58:39.360 can enforce it with violence. Tests do be loving to 1:58:39.480 --> 1:58:41.760 enforce the end with the violence? Yeah, and you know, 1:58:42.000 --> 1:58:46.360 I mean this is this entire thing is sort of 1:58:46.520 --> 1:58:48.080 this this is the basis of the sort of of 1:58:48.160 --> 1:58:51.760 the of the American gender bureaucracy. Right, It's inherently violent. 1:58:51.880 --> 1:58:54.480 It's it's not just sort of a procedure for recording 1:58:54.520 --> 1:58:58.000 what your gender is. It is it always sort of 1:58:58.080 --> 1:59:01.680 has been and is increasingly more were so now becoming 1:59:01.720 --> 1:59:05.920 a system that imposes it imposes a gender on you. Um, 1:59:06.240 --> 1:59:08.000 you know, and there's also a lot of ways that 1:59:08.040 --> 1:59:10.080 this bureaucracy you gets imposed on you that are you know, 1:59:10.240 --> 1:59:12.960 less extreme. You know, if if we go back to 1:59:13.160 --> 1:59:16.960 the question of like who are you assigned a gender for? Right, 1:59:17.000 --> 1:59:19.640 You're asigned a gender for the state, and you know, 1:59:19.880 --> 1:59:23.360 almost everything in your life depends on these bureaucratic documents. 1:59:23.400 --> 1:59:25.280 Because that's how the state understands you as a person 1:59:25.320 --> 1:59:28.600 by by these bureaucract documents like specifically birth certificates, process 1:59:28.760 --> 1:59:34.520 like driver's licenses, social Security cards, and sports generation papers. Yeah, 1:59:34.800 --> 1:59:36.920 I mean like here here, here's the American Bar Association 1:59:36.960 --> 1:59:40.080 talking about birth certificates. They are so common that we 1:59:40.200 --> 1:59:43.360 might even overlook their significance. In the United States, birth 1:59:43.400 --> 1:59:47.520 certificates serve as a proof of an individual's age, citizenship, status, 1:59:47.560 --> 1:59:50.960 and identity. They are necessary to obtain Social Security, apply 1:59:51.080 --> 1:59:54.600 for a passport, in rolland schools, get a driver's license, 1:59:54.680 --> 1:59:58.640 gain employment, or apply for other benefits. Humanitarian Desmond too 1:59:58.720 --> 2:00:02.000 to describe the birthtific it as quote a small paper, 2:00:02.160 --> 2:00:04.680 but it actually establishes who you are and gives access 2:00:04.720 --> 2:00:07.480 to the rights and privileges and the obligations of citizenship. 2:00:08.440 --> 2:00:11.000 You know, and I think that does Manchoo two is 2:00:11.040 --> 2:00:14.920 being enormously optimistic about sort of what it means to 2:00:15.000 --> 2:00:17.640 be seen by the state here, because the other thing 2:00:17.720 --> 2:00:19.800 that it does is it exposes you to the state's 2:00:19.880 --> 2:00:22.920 violence in a way where you know it now the 2:00:23.000 --> 2:00:24.880 state like this, this is this is the mechanism with 2:00:24.880 --> 2:00:27.400 you which it now knows who you are, so it 2:00:27.480 --> 2:00:30.920 does not having one, like, yeah, it's when the soft 2:00:30.960 --> 2:00:35.040 sits try to not have birthtificates for their children get 2:00:35.400 --> 2:00:37.160 violent and this and this is the thing. And one 2:00:37.200 --> 2:00:39.320 of one of the things here about this is that 2:00:39.440 --> 2:00:43.040 like you know, okay, you used to be able to, 2:00:43.200 --> 2:00:46.520 like get away with not having birth certificates, right, like 2:00:46.600 --> 2:00:48.080 a lot of a lot of Americans used not to 2:00:48.560 --> 2:00:49.960 used to like not. But one of one of the 2:00:49.960 --> 2:00:51.600 things that happens over the course of World War two 2:00:51.680 --> 2:00:55.200 is there's this enormous expansion in the state's bureacratic capacity. 2:00:55.200 --> 2:00:57.240 And there's an expansion of state's bureacratic capacity because it 2:00:57.320 --> 2:00:58.960 has to you know, it has to go to war. 2:00:59.520 --> 2:01:01.480 But some taneously there's and there's something I didn't have 2:01:01.640 --> 2:01:04.200 to happen but did, is that you get the army 2:01:04.240 --> 2:01:06.640 and you get employers starting to ask people's birertificates. But 2:01:06.680 --> 2:01:08.560 if people don't have them, because like I don't know, 2:01:08.640 --> 2:01:10.000 I was, why why the funk do I need to 2:01:10.080 --> 2:01:13.280 record being born? Right? Like this is this this is 2:01:13.320 --> 2:01:15.440 only this is another thing you need. It's only a 2:01:15.520 --> 2:01:20.000 thing the state needs. Yeah, it's interesting to look at 2:01:20.080 --> 2:01:22.280 Like I was thinking about how this is also where 2:01:22.320 --> 2:01:25.200 the kind of front line of colonialism happens, like the 2:01:25.560 --> 2:01:28.120 enforcement of a binary gender on indigenous people. Like you 2:01:28.160 --> 2:01:32.000 can look at specific individuals um osh tissues. One of them, 2:01:32.120 --> 2:01:35.240 they were a crow person in the cronation who like 2:01:35.640 --> 2:01:39.400 for for the United States as a scout's what's called 2:01:39.560 --> 2:01:42.080 bada and then was like in later life kind of 2:01:42.160 --> 2:01:44.400 forced to conform to a binary gender with which they 2:01:44.400 --> 2:01:48.320 didn't identify and they hadn't lived that way and because 2:01:48.400 --> 2:01:52.600 they had to, having being assigned identity papers to live 2:01:52.640 --> 2:01:54.440 on a reservation, you have to take one of the 2:01:54.480 --> 2:01:59.400 fucking boxes. Yeah, and you know, and the thing about 2:01:59.400 --> 2:02:01.480 those fucking exist right is you know, even like to 2:02:01.680 --> 2:02:03.480 this day, there are a lot of states where you 2:02:03.560 --> 2:02:06.400 can't change your gender, like on on you can't change 2:02:06.440 --> 2:02:09.160 what says in the card. You just can't. And you know, 2:02:10.000 --> 2:02:12.120 if they've assigned you a gender that's not your gender, 2:02:12.320 --> 2:02:15.040 then well tough luck. They have they have an they 2:02:15.080 --> 2:02:17.280 have monopoly on the legitimate use of force, and you 2:02:17.440 --> 2:02:20.000 don't you know, there's other stags where you need a 2:02:20.080 --> 2:02:23.120 fucking court order saying that you've had surgery in order 2:02:23.160 --> 2:02:25.840 to get the fucking you know, in order to change 2:02:25.840 --> 2:02:28.880 your bureaucratic person. And again the reason for this is 2:02:29.080 --> 2:02:31.760 and I cannot emphasize this enough. Fuck you. That is that. 2:02:31.960 --> 2:02:34.880 That is that, that is the reason for this. Um, yeah, 2:02:34.880 --> 2:02:37.120 I want to I want to go back also to 2:02:37.600 --> 2:02:39.480 you know, look to to look a bit more about 2:02:39.520 --> 2:02:42.920 sort of bureacratic effects. Um I'm gonna read from a 2:02:43.000 --> 2:02:45.920 n triple epiece about trans guy in the UK and 2:02:46.000 --> 2:02:50.720 the fifties. From the start, the sensensialized press coverage or 2:02:50.760 --> 2:02:54.240 ferguson this transition focused on some surprisingly quote tition elements. 2:02:54.640 --> 2:02:57.560 Quote change of sex puts them in a different employment 2:02:57.640 --> 2:03:01.520 category with a raisin salary, reported one newspaper, underscoring the 2:03:01.560 --> 2:03:03.920 fact that being reclassified as male in the eyes of 2:03:04.040 --> 2:03:07.320 his employer at the British government tied into a complex 2:03:07.400 --> 2:03:11.680 network of gendered economic and labor discrimination. In fact, not 2:03:11.880 --> 2:03:14.880 only did his pay change, but his whole job category changed, 2:03:14.920 --> 2:03:17.080 even though he was doing exactly the same work under 2:03:17.120 --> 2:03:20.680 the same conditions. This was because women workers were simply 2:03:20.840 --> 2:03:23.520 were not simply paid less, but also kept in feminized 2:03:23.600 --> 2:03:26.760 job grades. In the civil service, despite the government's claims 2:03:26.800 --> 2:03:30.960 that service was a meritocracy, a question a question raised 2:03:31.040 --> 2:03:33.680 in Parliament by an MP who had heard about Ferguson, 2:03:33.760 --> 2:03:37.120 demanded to know what form and number of proofs other 2:03:37.200 --> 2:03:40.320 than a mirror announcement by the subject they've missed ended 2:03:40.400 --> 2:03:44.600 them a couple of times. I it is required before 2:03:46.200 --> 2:03:50.680 a female quote like like civil survey, is permitted to 2:03:50.760 --> 2:03:54.160 obtain a higher salary in a different employment category owing 2:03:54.200 --> 2:03:57.640 to a change in sex. By gaining a quote official change, 2:03:57.760 --> 2:04:02.880 Jonathan Ferguson suddenly transformed himself, suddenly suddenly transformed into chief 2:04:02.960 --> 2:04:06.440 Experimental Officer with a male breadwinner salary large enough to 2:04:06.440 --> 2:04:09.320 support a family, rather than a woman's lower wage that 2:04:09.480 --> 2:04:12.880 was expected to be supplements mental to a family's earnings. 2:04:13.040 --> 2:04:16.080 For obvious reasons, noted the Treasury, we should not have 2:04:16.240 --> 2:04:19.000 to say anything which would have led to a request 2:04:19.080 --> 2:04:21.160 for the male payrade to be applied from his data's 2:04:21.240 --> 2:04:23.920 entry to the civil service. In other words, the Treasury 2:04:23.960 --> 2:04:26.280 wanted to ensure for that Ferguson did not try to 2:04:26.400 --> 2:04:32.440 claim back wages in turf Island. Always been very normal. Um. 2:04:33.440 --> 2:04:35.480 And uh, there's I wanna read a little bit more 2:04:35.520 --> 2:04:38.560 of this. Um. Conversely, a different civil servant, this time 2:04:38.560 --> 2:04:40.800 a trans woman who was working in the Admiral p 2:04:41.000 --> 2:04:44.680 Department and transitioning around the same time, was advised it 2:04:44.840 --> 2:04:47.800 was in her quote interest to delay official recognition of 2:04:47.920 --> 2:04:51.760 the change until at least January nineteen sixty assuming full 2:04:51.880 --> 2:04:55.160 equal pay in the civil services introduced by nineteen sixty one. 2:04:55.800 --> 2:04:58.560 Her employers wrote that it was in her quote own interest, 2:04:58.680 --> 2:05:02.200 in their opinion, continue wearing men's clothing for the time 2:05:02.280 --> 2:05:05.320 being in order to avoid your significant reduction in pay. 2:05:06.160 --> 2:05:09.320 That it's it's funny because like I it's not funny. 2:05:09.360 --> 2:05:11.000 It's sucked up and it's been stupid, isn't it. But 2:05:11.840 --> 2:05:14.040 like I knew trans people in Britain who would have 2:05:14.080 --> 2:05:22.120 grown up around this time, who like socially transitioned after retirement. Yeah, 2:05:22.440 --> 2:05:24.880 or at least like openly to you know, we weren't 2:05:24.920 --> 2:05:28.720 like BFF or anything. But it's absolutely fucking insane that 2:05:29.000 --> 2:05:33.160 like that this argument was deployed. Yeah, And you know, 2:05:33.360 --> 2:05:34.920 you can you can see what's sort of going on here, 2:05:34.960 --> 2:05:38.200 which is that like you know, it's more it's more 2:05:38.320 --> 2:05:41.040 explicitly obvious and here that it is in a lot 2:05:41.120 --> 2:05:44.400 of other cases. But your status in the gender bureaucracy 2:05:44.480 --> 2:05:46.320 is a key element of how you're able to extract 2:05:46.360 --> 2:05:50.240 resources from the state. And you know, sometimes that's literally 2:05:50.360 --> 2:05:53.080 just an explicit pay gap, like it was based on 2:05:53.120 --> 2:05:56.840 institutional sexism. But you know, I think I think the 2:05:56.920 --> 2:05:59.280 second case is in a lot of ways more revealing. Right, 2:06:00.040 --> 2:06:05.080 the state and asgender bureaucracy is very explicitly saying, conform 2:06:05.200 --> 2:06:07.640 to what the jet the bureaucracy says your gender is, 2:06:07.760 --> 2:06:10.360 and it'll you'll get paid more, and if you don't, 2:06:10.440 --> 2:06:12.680 you'll get paid less. And if you look at this 2:06:12.760 --> 2:06:15.080 more abstractly, right, and in order to interface with the state, 2:06:15.120 --> 2:06:16.840 in order to extract well for benefits, in order to 2:06:16.880 --> 2:06:19.440 pay your fucking taxes, in order to drive, in order 2:06:19.480 --> 2:06:23.560 to buy alcohol, apparently now in order to buy the 2:06:23.600 --> 2:06:26.360 stupid cleaning bottles you of of compressed air but you 2:06:26.440 --> 2:06:29.600 have to use to to clean out your computer keyboards. Uh, 2:06:29.680 --> 2:06:31.240 in order to buy alcohol, in order to get on 2:06:31.280 --> 2:06:34.120 an airplane, you have to conform to the state's bureaucratic 2:06:34.200 --> 2:06:36.120 view of you. And if you don't, you can't do it. 2:06:38.480 --> 2:06:40.520 And and you know this this brings up the question, 2:06:40.680 --> 2:06:43.120 what right does the state have to assign my gender? 2:06:43.760 --> 2:06:46.320 And you know, the state will spit out a variety 2:06:46.440 --> 2:06:49.040 of sort of like pseudo medical and pseudo political explanations. 2:06:49.120 --> 2:06:51.840 But the answer is that the state has no right 2:06:52.440 --> 2:06:57.400 to tell you what your gender is except force. And 2:06:57.680 --> 2:07:01.760 you know, the the extent to which the state has 2:07:01.800 --> 2:07:04.520 actually been able to sort of do this kind of 2:07:04.560 --> 2:07:06.480 stuff has changed over time. But we we've talked about 2:07:06.520 --> 2:07:08.320 this a bit. But what like, you know, over the 2:07:08.400 --> 2:07:12.000 course of sort of over the course of sort of 2:07:12.720 --> 2:07:14.760 of the twentieth century, and you know, we can also 2:07:14.800 --> 2:07:17.000 look at things like, uh, we can look at the 2:07:17.040 --> 2:07:19.080 War on Terror, we can look at neo liberalism and 2:07:19.200 --> 2:07:23.560 David Graber's Iron law of liberalism, which the Iron Law 2:07:23.600 --> 2:07:27.080 of liberalism states that any market reform, any government initiative 2:07:27.120 --> 2:07:30.280 intended to reduce red tape and promote market forces, will 2:07:30.320 --> 2:07:33.320 have the ultimate effect of increasing a total number of regulations, 2:07:33.400 --> 2:07:35.760 the total amount of paperwork, and the total number of bureaucrats, 2:07:35.800 --> 2:07:38.880 the government employees, which I always love. But you know, 2:07:39.040 --> 2:07:41.080 like we we we've we've seen the sort of consequences 2:07:41.120 --> 2:07:45.720 of this playing out over the course of of you know, 2:07:46.320 --> 2:07:48.480 the last about a century. Right, if you go back 2:07:48.480 --> 2:07:51.320 to the age nineties, it was possible for basically private 2:07:51.360 --> 2:07:53.600 citizens to have just full on wars with each other 2:07:54.200 --> 2:07:56.640 in parts of the US, and that the government would 2:07:56.640 --> 2:08:01.920 just be like sure, okay, whatever, Like the people mining 2:08:02.000 --> 2:08:04.560 bird ship off of the coast of California are shooting 2:08:04.600 --> 2:08:08.600 each other with cannons again like whatever, Right, Like it's 2:08:08.640 --> 2:08:12.240 it's not really until the twentieth century, and really even 2:08:12.320 --> 2:08:14.600 in like the last fifty years has been a last 2:08:14.640 --> 2:08:16.760 expansion of this that like the state actually has full 2:08:16.920 --> 2:08:21.680 territorial control over everywhere that it claims to have control of. Right, 2:08:22.240 --> 2:08:24.000 we were like we we are just now getting to 2:08:24.040 --> 2:08:26.520 a place where the police can actually you know, like 2:08:26.680 --> 2:08:29.680 have like militarily hold the entire country at one time. 2:08:30.360 --> 2:08:31.840 And even then they can only do it as long 2:08:31.880 --> 2:08:34.800 as people sort of cooperate with them. Um, but you 2:08:34.880 --> 2:08:40.520 know this, this is really bad if you're a person 2:08:41.040 --> 2:08:43.520 who doesn't who who who the bureaucracy has deemed to 2:08:43.560 --> 2:08:45.760 be something else or and this is another you know, 2:08:45.840 --> 2:08:48.200 another sort of angle on this, right, Like, if you're 2:08:48.240 --> 2:08:51.960 someone who does not have documentation, the state very very 2:08:52.120 --> 2:08:55.320 quickly will just attempt to destroy you because you know, 2:08:55.440 --> 2:08:56.920 oh hey you don't you don't know the right paper. 2:08:56.960 --> 2:08:58.640 As this means the government can fucking arrest you and 2:08:58.720 --> 2:09:01.880 kick you out of the country. Yeah, and you know 2:09:02.160 --> 2:09:06.920 this is fucking horrible. Um, there's a lot of stuff, Like, 2:09:06.960 --> 2:09:08.600 there's a lot of other angles you can look at 2:09:08.640 --> 2:09:10.480 this from, right. I mean, like at some point we 2:09:10.520 --> 2:09:13.920 probably will do an episode about like the process of 2:09:14.000 --> 2:09:16.400 getting medical care and all of the people who you 2:09:16.520 --> 2:09:19.240 have to convince that you are your gender. But ye 2:09:19.240 --> 2:09:21.080 know that that's another episode in tirely what I want 2:09:21.080 --> 2:09:23.800 to get at here is that state bureaucratic power is 2:09:23.840 --> 2:09:28.360 being used by by just increasingly politicized gender bureaucrats not 2:09:28.560 --> 2:09:30.840 only to force people to comply with their sort of 2:09:30.880 --> 2:09:33.160 state mandated gender when they deal with the state, but 2:09:33.240 --> 2:09:35.360 also to force them to inhabit that gender in their 2:09:35.400 --> 2:09:39.080 private lives, which is constitutes nothing less than a form 2:09:39.160 --> 2:09:42.600 of full scale genders hotel terrianism. Um. We talked about 2:09:42.640 --> 2:09:46.000 that fucking Utah bill, which you know again prohibits minors 2:09:46.040 --> 2:09:48.920 from getting gender affirming surgery people block as a hormone treatment. 2:09:49.360 --> 2:09:51.960 That that is a bill that forces people to live 2:09:52.040 --> 2:09:55.520 in their state mandated gender. In Florida, gender bureaucrats are 2:09:55.520 --> 2:09:59.880 allowed to physically inspect athletes they suspect of being tran 2:10:00.160 --> 2:10:03.440 which is to say, not conforming to fucking state bureautic 2:10:03.520 --> 2:10:08.880 gender controls. It's children, right, like children, like they are 2:10:08.880 --> 2:10:12.800 allowed to molest your child because they think that because 2:10:12.800 --> 2:10:16.520 they're they think they're trans. The other aspect of this is, 2:10:16.560 --> 2:10:20.280 obviously there is something we've talked about before that's something 2:10:20.320 --> 2:10:22.480 that you're starting to see with these bills is they're 2:10:22.560 --> 2:10:25.920 trying to make the bills age number go as high 2:10:25.960 --> 2:10:30.480 as possible. Yes, there's bills for people, there's bills proposing 2:10:30.920 --> 2:10:35.720 twenty five not so it's trying to trying to police 2:10:35.760 --> 2:10:39.280 and control the bodily autonomy of of complete adults, which 2:10:39.280 --> 2:10:43.080 obviously is not not a new thing for the GOP, 2:10:43.200 --> 2:10:46.280 specifically especially in the wake of the Roe v. Wade 2:10:46.600 --> 2:10:51.360 overturning um. But another aspect of like this, this this 2:10:51.520 --> 2:10:54.280 goes beyond just people who are younger than the age 2:10:54.320 --> 2:10:57.400 of nineteen. This this they're going to try to keep 2:10:57.520 --> 2:11:00.080 raising this as much as as much as possible. And 2:11:00.120 --> 2:11:01.720 this is where the types of surveillance that I was 2:11:01.720 --> 2:11:04.680 talking about before it's going to become a problem because 2:11:04.760 --> 2:11:07.280 if you're if you're googling how to do d I 2:11:07.480 --> 2:11:10.400 Y H R T and get stuff shipped in from Brazil. 2:11:11.400 --> 2:11:13.320 Don't think that the surveillance stuff is not gonna not 2:11:13.440 --> 2:11:17.200 gonna impact your ability to do that. They had also 2:11:17.280 --> 2:11:21.080 polices like the gender presentation of SIS people specifically CISS 2:11:21.120 --> 2:11:22.960 for me, and I think, like I think the people 2:11:23.000 --> 2:11:25.920 who are getting physically inspected because of these laws are 2:11:26.040 --> 2:11:29.120 just girls who are good at fucking sport. Like there's 2:11:29.120 --> 2:11:31.520 CIS girls. They just they might be like like taller 2:11:31.680 --> 2:11:35.320 or stronger or and like it's some anyone has the 2:11:35.360 --> 2:11:37.280 power to just be like, oh you're not you're not 2:11:37.360 --> 2:11:40.200 a girly enough girl. Uh, And so fucking now you 2:11:40.280 --> 2:11:42.480 get to go to the pervert room and get expected. 2:11:43.200 --> 2:11:45.680 And you know what was like in Texas? Right the 2:11:45.800 --> 2:11:48.440 law right now is that if the state, if the 2:11:48.480 --> 2:11:51.360 state thinks you're fucking child is not sufficiently close to 2:11:51.400 --> 2:11:53.440 the gender, they can fucking take your child from you 2:11:53.560 --> 2:11:55.880 and force them to be whatever fucking gender the state 2:11:55.920 --> 2:11:59.960 wants them to be. Right, And you know, any other 2:12:00.200 --> 2:12:02.440 period in history, if you walk into a room and 2:12:02.520 --> 2:12:04.160 tell a bunch of people the state is going to 2:12:04.240 --> 2:12:07.080 decide your fucking gender, everyone would lose their goddamn minds. 2:12:07.320 --> 2:12:09.520 This would be like this is a This is a 2:12:10.200 --> 2:12:13.160 like unfathomable like even in sort of like the depths 2:12:13.160 --> 2:12:15.560 of the sort of totalitarian like nightmare or states. This 2:12:15.640 --> 2:12:19.400 is like an unfathomable level of sort of state bureaucratic 2:12:19.600 --> 2:12:23.600 like in position onto people's lives. And yeah, you know 2:12:23.720 --> 2:12:25.520 it's the fucking us right we have, we have We 2:12:25.560 --> 2:12:28.520 are the most bureacratic society humanity has ever produced. Nobody 2:12:28.560 --> 2:12:30.920 thinks it's the most bureacratic society has ever produced. And 2:12:31.400 --> 2:12:34.280 you know, we are right now every day seeing the 2:12:34.400 --> 2:12:38.040 points at which bureaucracy meets violence. The last thing I 2:12:38.120 --> 2:12:41.560 have to say is that you know, like this, this, 2:12:41.840 --> 2:12:43.840 this is the future of gender. The future of gender 2:12:43.960 --> 2:12:47.960 is government bureaucrats, whether they're cops, politicians, doctor's shop, protective services, 2:12:48.000 --> 2:12:50.280 as school board administrators forcing you to be a gendor 2:12:50.320 --> 2:12:53.520 that they're not. But fundamentally, they have no fucking right 2:12:53.600 --> 2:12:55.520 to do this, right. What they have is power, and 2:12:55.600 --> 2:12:58.720 their grasp on power is still right now tenuous. So 2:12:59.000 --> 2:13:02.920 you know, it is possible to stop them going any 2:13:02.960 --> 2:13:04.800 further than this. It is possible to beat back the 2:13:04.840 --> 2:13:06.920 power of the state, and it is possible to have 2:13:07.080 --> 2:13:09.080 a world that's not this, and we know it's possible 2:13:09.080 --> 2:13:10.400 to have world it is not this because it wasn't 2:13:10.640 --> 2:13:14.200 like this like fifty years ago. So yeah, fuck him 2:13:15.120 --> 2:13:18.000 and that's that's that's that that, that's that. That that's 2:13:18.040 --> 2:13:24.120 gender bureaucrats. People should read David Gray. But learning about 2:13:24.120 --> 2:13:29.839 intersectionality for a fucking second. Another another another great resource 2:13:29.920 --> 2:13:33.560 to learn about how you can like mix up gender stuff. 2:13:33.600 --> 2:13:35.800 There's this new video game out right now which has 2:13:35.800 --> 2:13:40.720 a pretty intense character creation selection you can It's called 2:13:41.040 --> 2:13:46.360 let me See, It's called Hogwarts Legacy. Is that No 2:13:46.720 --> 2:13:49.760 I thought you were going with side called but it has, 2:13:49.960 --> 2:13:52.200 it has It has a lot of different customizations that 2:13:52.320 --> 2:13:55.200 you can do for your gender presentation and and and 2:13:55.280 --> 2:13:59.760 your body parts. I think refusing could do this on Twitter, 2:13:59.840 --> 2:14:01.880 but I need, I need, I need to take fucking 2:14:02.000 --> 2:14:04.480 one minute talk about the dumbest argument anyone has ever made, 2:14:04.640 --> 2:14:06.200 which is that I have to buy this game in 2:14:06.320 --> 2:14:09.680 order to support the developers. Which think about this five seconds, right, Okay, 2:14:09.680 --> 2:14:11.320 if you have to buy this game to support the developers, 2:14:11.360 --> 2:14:14.480 don't you have to buy every other game to support 2:14:14.480 --> 2:14:17.480 their developers? In fact, are are you not morally obligated 2:14:17.480 --> 2:14:19.600 to buy every single product on Earth, because if you 2:14:19.680 --> 2:14:22.080 don't buy every single product that's ever been made, you 2:14:22.800 --> 2:14:28.200 those those will not be deployed. It's bullshit here. This 2:14:28.320 --> 2:14:31.080 is such a weird like capitalism of a poison development 2:14:32.640 --> 2:14:36.200 thinking you're obligated to consume. Lots of people on I 2:14:36.960 --> 2:14:38.880 have been holding my tongue on Twitter about this from 2:14:38.960 --> 2:14:42.120 monks now watching people watching people made the argument, I 2:14:42.160 --> 2:14:44.720 have to buy something to sport developers, which again buy 2:14:44.760 --> 2:14:49.920 a different game. Support those developers, buy fucking go on strike. 2:14:50.360 --> 2:14:51.760 Fucking I don't know if you want, if you want 2:14:51.760 --> 2:14:56.000 to want to support the develophy give you money someone 2:14:56.040 --> 2:15:01.560 who is in a fucking video game developer. Well, I'm 2:15:01.600 --> 2:15:03.640 glad we're getting I'm glad glad we could have that 2:15:03.960 --> 2:15:08.240 that special bonding moment over the very inclusive gender settings 2:15:08.360 --> 2:15:12.560 inside this new hit video game. So that's that's pretty cool. 2:15:13.120 --> 2:15:16.200 I hopefully we get an ad from them soon, but 2:15:16.800 --> 2:15:19.520 I hope, so, I hope. So the worst Twitter day 2:15:19.560 --> 2:15:21.400 of my life is the day we get that fucking 2:15:21.440 --> 2:15:41.280 ad gold presented by Hogwarts. Hi, everyone is it could 2:15:41.280 --> 2:15:44.360 happen here And it's just James today because today I'm 2:15:44.400 --> 2:15:48.160 doing a little interview on the situation for Hindu people. 2:15:48.880 --> 2:15:51.480 If you're not familiar with the Hindu genocide, we're not 2:15:51.520 --> 2:15:53.080 going to cover that in depth, but we will give 2:15:53.480 --> 2:15:56.360 a little bit of an overview. And I'm talking to 2:15:57.040 --> 2:16:00.680 on your Mo, who is Rhinga himself and who works 2:16:00.720 --> 2:16:03.560 with the National Unity Government and advising them about Reheinga 2:16:03.600 --> 2:16:06.760 people's human rights. I think the news cycle hasn't really 2:16:06.800 --> 2:16:10.480 covered many Rehiner issues since the Rhea genocide. The world's 2:16:10.520 --> 2:16:12.680 kind of moved off from caring about them, but they're 2:16:12.680 --> 2:16:14.920 still in a very difficult situation, and we want to 2:16:15.000 --> 2:16:18.480 update you on issues that continue to face the Rehenga people. 2:16:18.800 --> 2:16:21.560 I hope you enjoyed the interview. So today I'm joined 2:16:21.640 --> 2:16:26.320 by on Kyomo, who's an advisor to the National Unity 2:16:26.400 --> 2:16:28.920 Government of Miama, which people will hopefully be familiar with. 2:16:29.080 --> 2:16:30.400 If not, he can explain a little bit of what 2:16:30.520 --> 2:16:33.320 that is. He's an advisor to the Ministry of Human 2:16:33.440 --> 2:16:38.200 Rights and also a Rehinger human rights activist himself. And so, Phi, 2:16:38.360 --> 2:16:40.360 thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for 2:16:40.480 --> 2:16:43.000 having me. Yeah, So what I'd love to do today 2:16:43.280 --> 2:16:46.360 is I think if our listeners have listened to our 2:16:46.400 --> 2:16:50.119 previous coverage to what's happening in Mihama or Burma, depending 2:16:50.160 --> 2:16:53.080 on which one do you prefer. They will know a 2:16:53.200 --> 2:16:55.720 lot about the coup, and they will know a lot 2:16:56.400 --> 2:17:00.680 about the things of Pappasinsku right, the PDF and the 2:17:01.160 --> 2:17:05.080 ethnic resistance organizations, but I think they might not be 2:17:05.200 --> 2:17:09.240 as familiar with the situation that Reenga people have been 2:17:09.280 --> 2:17:11.280 in for a long time and continue to be in. 2:17:11.760 --> 2:17:14.600 It's a different part of the the country too. We 2:17:14.680 --> 2:17:18.440 were we were in um Massot, which is on the 2:17:18.480 --> 2:17:21.400 other side, So that's something we've covered a lot less. 2:17:21.520 --> 2:17:26.560 So perhaps you could begin by explaining, like why there 2:17:26.600 --> 2:17:29.680 are so many Rehindia refugees who have left. Obviously, the 2:17:30.080 --> 2:17:32.720 history of the persecution of Ranger people is very long. 2:17:33.320 --> 2:17:35.879 But if you could give us sort of a potted 2:17:35.959 --> 2:17:40.440 history of of the persecution of Rehinia people by various 2:17:40.560 --> 2:17:44.240 governments in Myanmar and and what has led to this 2:17:44.440 --> 2:17:47.959 massive exodus and this big refugee population of Hinda people, now, 2:17:48.000 --> 2:17:50.240 that would be great to start with. Great, thank you, 2:17:50.400 --> 2:17:54.119 thank you for having me in. The history is very long, 2:17:54.240 --> 2:17:59.640 but I will be concrete and and and short. The 2:18:00.200 --> 2:18:05.160 Ruheinga people has been in Myanmar before Burma even exists, 2:18:05.959 --> 2:18:09.440 before Burma become Burma, and before British came and their 2:18:09.520 --> 2:18:17.760 significant architect color related infrastructure that exists indicate existence of 2:18:17.800 --> 2:18:21.240 the Ruhengan. There's a lot of literature research and Ruhinga 2:18:21.320 --> 2:18:27.439 people themselves living in generations and generations um there indicates 2:18:27.600 --> 2:18:30.400 that Ruhinga are part of my and Mare and it 2:18:31.520 --> 2:18:34.760 he used to be and it will be. And Runga 2:18:35.000 --> 2:18:38.120 not only the ethnic minority, they are also the religious minority. 2:18:38.200 --> 2:18:42.840 Majority of premius people are Buddhists and of the second largest, 2:18:43.200 --> 2:18:45.800 followed by the Muslims are Christian, and then the third 2:18:45.920 --> 2:18:50.000 largest are Muslim and Ruhinga are Muslim and and Ruhinga 2:18:50.000 --> 2:18:54.320 are single Muslim ethnic groups and Sink also religious ethnic groups. 2:18:54.840 --> 2:19:01.080 And there has been historical exclusion discriminations sponsored by the 2:19:01.640 --> 2:19:05.600 and sponsored and carried out by the consecutive government of 2:19:05.680 --> 2:19:09.720 Myanmar to target this religious and ethnic minority, to exclude 2:19:09.760 --> 2:19:13.640 from religious, ethnic and social aspects of the society, and 2:19:14.520 --> 2:19:17.280 and it has been politically motivating for many government it 2:19:17.400 --> 2:19:22.680 has always been beneficial in in and mincing the larger 2:19:22.800 --> 2:19:26.320 populations of Myanmar by showing Runga as a threat to 2:19:26.440 --> 2:19:31.000 the country because of their religious differences and to the 2:19:31.080 --> 2:19:34.720 way that we were and we eat are slightly different 2:19:34.800 --> 2:19:38.440 than than Purmese because we have our own culture and 2:19:38.520 --> 2:19:42.360 own traditions and own language and and u and it's 2:19:42.480 --> 2:19:49.000 enriched by by those UH. Thus the first start of execution, 2:19:49.240 --> 2:19:52.600 like executing these discriminatory policies to work to the Runga 2:19:52.920 --> 2:19:56.960 has started as as long as um as far as 2:19:57.080 --> 2:20:00.440 back in nineteen sixty where the first coup took nineteen 2:20:00.480 --> 2:20:04.480 sixty two when first took place, and then military consecutive 2:20:04.520 --> 2:20:09.800 military government accelerated that to form to UH situations where 2:20:09.879 --> 2:20:15.120 it could be UH defined and fall under the category 2:20:15.200 --> 2:20:19.560 of the crimes against humanity. So in nineteen seventy eight 2:20:19.720 --> 2:20:24.000 there is a big operations against Hina people to deport 2:20:24.120 --> 2:20:27.160 them and two thousand people has to be flee to 2:20:28.320 --> 2:20:31.959 to Bangladesh and some of them still remain as refugees 2:20:32.160 --> 2:20:35.640 to third generations for the generations in Bangladesh not being 2:20:35.640 --> 2:20:38.959 able to repatriate it to the place where they come from. 2:20:39.320 --> 2:20:43.320 And followed by that the nineteen UH ninety two there 2:20:43.400 --> 2:20:49.320 was another influx of the refugees and the refugee it's 2:20:49.400 --> 2:20:52.720 also the quite significant larger number of the refugees and 2:20:52.879 --> 2:20:56.920 and and not everyone could come back. And there is 2:20:56.959 --> 2:21:00.880 another layer of the refugees that remains UH from the 2:21:00.959 --> 2:21:06.320 report treating then from the violation the human rights violations 2:21:06.400 --> 2:21:10.680 became too through h gas business, a surial limiting the child, 2:21:11.120 --> 2:21:14.760 the number of child that you can have, and treating 2:21:14.800 --> 2:21:17.400 you less than an animals, not having the religious right 2:21:17.440 --> 2:21:22.520 to exercise the way that you believe, and restrictions of movement, killing, raping, 2:21:22.959 --> 2:21:27.199 and it's continued and it has been accelerated in different 2:21:27.240 --> 2:21:30.000 form and shape where it could be it could come 2:21:30.080 --> 2:21:33.960 to a situation it's from from crimes against you and 2:21:34.040 --> 2:21:37.400 it is being transformed to genocides and and in two 2:21:37.440 --> 2:21:40.280 thousands seventeen it's one to the highest pick of the 2:21:40.360 --> 2:21:44.240 genocides where a million people are being deported by burning 2:21:44.360 --> 2:21:47.560 and many people had a thousand people died and many 2:21:47.720 --> 2:21:50.000 thousands women being raped. And there are a lot of 2:21:50.360 --> 2:21:56.440 fatherless child in the camp today being UH big bond 2:21:56.560 --> 2:21:59.640 by by by by the woman's who victims of the 2:21:59.720 --> 2:22:02.320 of the rief of the Nyama military. And today there 2:22:02.440 --> 2:22:06.440 is a million people in Bangladesh and with no hope 2:22:06.560 --> 2:22:09.520 to be reportuated soon to the place of origin with 2:22:09.600 --> 2:22:13.279 safety and and dignity. And of course the political landscape 2:22:13.320 --> 2:22:16.360 in Myanmar has shifted. UH. It used to be in 2:22:16.400 --> 2:22:21.760 the democratic transition from two thousands ten to twenty with 2:22:21.920 --> 2:22:27.280 two consecutive different government and the democratically elected government has 2:22:27.360 --> 2:22:31.000 been overthrown by by a temkup by the military who 2:22:31.120 --> 2:22:34.640 had ruled the country for for for many decades. And 2:22:35.160 --> 2:22:39.280 UH and and of course the democratically elected government which 2:22:39.320 --> 2:22:43.000 I advise to UH is being some of the member 2:22:43.080 --> 2:22:45.680 of the government are being arrested, and some are in 2:22:45.800 --> 2:22:49.240 the in the ethnic territorial control, and and some are 2:22:49.360 --> 2:22:52.920 in exile, and and and so the country so the 2:22:53.640 --> 2:22:56.879 reactions of the fifty million people has been different because 2:22:56.920 --> 2:22:59.520 there has been several ku inman Mara and this was 2:22:59.640 --> 2:23:03.680 their the the political calculations of the military leaders to 2:23:03.760 --> 2:23:07.119 ATTEMPD the coup was wrong that they did not expect 2:23:07.200 --> 2:23:09.440 the resistance of the people. And then of course the 2:23:10.240 --> 2:23:15.600 the the young Generation Z people came in to to resist. Uitially, 2:23:15.640 --> 2:23:18.320 they claimed to be peacefully protesting to hand over the 2:23:18.400 --> 2:23:21.720 power back to the to the to the democratically elected people, 2:23:21.800 --> 2:23:24.200 but as a result they were being brutally cracked on 2:23:24.280 --> 2:23:28.080 and killed, arrested, and then and then the young people 2:23:28.200 --> 2:23:30.400 started to understand that we need to speak the language 2:23:30.440 --> 2:23:33.640 that they understand. They understand, so they speak that language 2:23:33.680 --> 2:23:37.160 is grabbing a gun and and and and promming the military. 2:23:37.240 --> 2:23:39.840 So followed by that, National Unity Government has been formed 2:23:39.840 --> 2:23:43.240 by with elected members of the of the of the 2:23:43.320 --> 2:23:47.200 parliament both lower Horna Opera hosts. So the National Unity 2:23:47.240 --> 2:23:50.080 Government today is the most the legitimate government of Yanmar 2:23:50.200 --> 2:23:53.120 and having also some tertorial control. Of course, majority of 2:23:53.160 --> 2:23:58.080 the government investor infrastructure are being being captured illegally by 2:23:58.160 --> 2:24:01.560 the military untain. Yeah, and it's interesting that people are 2:24:01.680 --> 2:24:05.680 familiar with the sort of ethnic makeup of previous governments 2:24:05.959 --> 2:24:08.640 and then the National Unity Government. From what I understand, 2:24:09.280 --> 2:24:13.800 it's not as much dominated by the majority ethnic Berman 2:24:13.920 --> 2:24:16.720 people in the International Unity Government as it was before 2:24:17.280 --> 2:24:19.440 even under their n LG. Right, even under sort of 2:24:19.560 --> 2:24:24.480 the most most democratic that there has been in the 2:24:24.600 --> 2:24:27.160 MA for some time, like there was still a domination 2:24:27.240 --> 2:24:30.000 by by one ethnicity. Right that the National Unity Government 2:24:30.120 --> 2:24:33.640 is more ethnically diverse, is that right? Correct? But still 2:24:33.720 --> 2:24:37.360 there are a lot of rooms for improvement. Particularly range 2:24:37.480 --> 2:24:40.680 people has always been part of Myanmar and politically excluded. 2:24:41.040 --> 2:24:43.240 And despite a million people being pushed out to the 2:24:43.320 --> 2:24:47.200 Bangladesh through a genocidal attempt, the remaining populations in Yenmar 2:24:47.720 --> 2:24:52.760 is six people politically represented both sides of populations under 2:24:52.840 --> 2:24:56.800 continued genocidal attempts of the Miyama made Free and the 2:24:56.920 --> 2:25:01.320 National United Government did not include politically meaningfully the Ruhinga 2:25:01.400 --> 2:25:04.879 populations still now and they appointed me as an adviser, 2:25:05.080 --> 2:25:08.800 But a politically representable size of populations need to be represented, 2:25:09.240 --> 2:25:12.360 not by functions alone. It's need to be both all 2:25:12.520 --> 2:25:16.360 represented by functions and number equally to to UH, to 2:25:16.520 --> 2:25:20.760 other ethnic And we're in the context of identity politics 2:25:20.840 --> 2:25:23.880 in me and Mare and your political rights and responsibilities 2:25:23.879 --> 2:25:26.160 to what to the nations are associated that the very 2:25:26.240 --> 2:25:29.600 identity that you were so time to time. There is 2:25:29.640 --> 2:25:33.200 a big questions like you know, we're moving forward to 2:25:33.360 --> 2:25:36.200 the part of democracy to make the country to back 2:25:36.280 --> 2:25:40.080 to the track of democracy. But the very principle of 2:25:40.200 --> 2:25:43.720 democracy is majority rules and and respect the minorities right right, 2:25:44.120 --> 2:25:49.720 and still the Runga are being despite the international pressure, 2:25:49.760 --> 2:25:53.360 particularly the United States and it's allies to have inclusive 2:25:53.400 --> 2:25:57.280 democracy and Ruhinga people are not yet meaningful included in 2:25:57.360 --> 2:26:00.440 the government. Yeah, and I think that's something we've spoken 2:26:00.440 --> 2:26:03.879 about a lot with with Karen and Karni, people who 2:26:03.920 --> 2:26:06.800 we've spoken to about the sort of the need for 2:26:06.879 --> 2:26:10.560 a more inclusive structure, whether that's like a federal democracy 2:26:11.280 --> 2:26:15.400 after obviously after the military hunter has been deposed, or 2:26:15.440 --> 2:26:19.840 certainly something that's more inclusive, and perhaps we can talk 2:26:19.879 --> 2:26:23.400 about how Like it's very interesting to me when I 2:26:23.440 --> 2:26:27.640 talk to young people generation Z people from the EMMA, 2:26:28.120 --> 2:26:30.640 they will say that like they wouldn't have even said 2:26:30.800 --> 2:26:33.640 sometimes for a hind yet like ten years ago, that 2:26:33.840 --> 2:26:35.880 they wouldn't have used to term they have they'd have 2:26:35.959 --> 2:26:39.040 seen the people who we now who we would call 2:26:39.240 --> 2:26:42.520 hin As Bangladesh. He's right because this was the narrative. 2:26:42.600 --> 2:26:45.600 Can you explain how you've explained very well that that's 2:26:45.640 --> 2:26:49.480 not true, but how that narrative was constructed and what 2:26:49.640 --> 2:26:53.960 it was used to do. I think it's once again 2:26:54.440 --> 2:26:58.400 to sclue through Hingen to curry our systematic destructions mentally 2:26:58.440 --> 2:27:02.160 and physically. The Rhinga is also a lot to do 2:27:02.280 --> 2:27:06.960 with their spreading propaganda, misinformations and and disinformations through a 2:27:07.040 --> 2:27:11.680 state let media boosts online and offline, and so this 2:27:12.080 --> 2:27:15.960 means these destructions has happened with the state sponsortain state 2:27:16.200 --> 2:27:22.680 pre plan intentional um intentional intentional UH way of doing it, 2:27:23.240 --> 2:27:26.800 and thus the society, the Hinga people has been restricted 2:27:26.879 --> 2:27:29.000 from moving. And this is one of the least developed 2:27:29.720 --> 2:27:32.040 region where the hunger people living. A lot of people 2:27:32.120 --> 2:27:36.760 from from like other state wouldn't be able to travel 2:27:36.840 --> 2:27:39.320 and go and see what is happening really inside there 2:27:39.640 --> 2:27:41.959 and to people would not be able to move parts 2:27:42.040 --> 2:27:45.040 of that to tell their stories. So all the narrative 2:27:45.120 --> 2:27:47.800 that people here is the military and the government what 2:27:47.920 --> 2:27:50.400 the government used to put at that moment. So in 2:27:50.520 --> 2:27:53.400 the in the in the eyes or in the perceptions 2:27:53.440 --> 2:27:56.920 of the people through Hingas are from Bangladesh and they 2:27:56.959 --> 2:27:59.760 are trying to to take over the country and they 2:27:59.800 --> 2:28:03.560 had a national security threat and that was denderative. So 2:28:03.760 --> 2:28:07.800 they the reality is being defined by the perceptions and 2:28:08.280 --> 2:28:12.720 falls and misinformations that being given in a consistent intentional 2:28:13.160 --> 2:28:15.520 way to the young people. And of course today I 2:28:15.640 --> 2:28:19.440 think has changed slightly to be seeing to what is 2:28:19.560 --> 2:28:23.280 reality and people showing the sympathy to what happened to 2:28:23.280 --> 2:28:26.720 the Ruhinga because it's every time something happened in me, 2:28:26.800 --> 2:28:29.200 I'm like that it's consistent to work to the Rhinga 2:28:29.520 --> 2:28:33.440 the human rights violations, crimes against humanity and genocide, and 2:28:33.920 --> 2:28:38.760 the people fifty million people in Myanmar were not either 2:28:38.840 --> 2:28:43.000 they're seeing neutral or their extending with the military not 2:28:43.840 --> 2:28:46.360 like too that this should do this and this is 2:28:46.520 --> 2:28:49.080 right to do to kill people, right to read because 2:28:49.160 --> 2:28:55.400 their national city security threat. But what had happened to 2:28:55.440 --> 2:28:58.600 the Ruhinga people, perhaps in the not the same shape 2:28:58.640 --> 2:29:03.160 and same as already or valocity or momentum or intensity 2:29:04.040 --> 2:29:06.120 has started to happen after the coup, to to the 2:29:06.200 --> 2:29:08.280 to the Bama people, and then they tend to realize 2:29:08.600 --> 2:29:11.280 what happened to ring What Ringa used to tell running 2:29:11.280 --> 2:29:14.560 the whole village is killing and raping is exactly what 2:29:14.760 --> 2:29:17.480 what what is happening? More or less exactly what is 2:29:17.480 --> 2:29:20.520 happening to us? Than they were right? And it's the 2:29:20.640 --> 2:29:23.119 big teams change and the proper traitors remain the same. 2:29:23.640 --> 2:29:26.520 And with that concept people come to but again I 2:29:26.600 --> 2:29:29.200 think they still it's a very small number of the populations, 2:29:29.480 --> 2:29:33.320 uh compared to the whole populations that lives in Yanmar 2:29:33.800 --> 2:29:36.360 and in in in the democratic principles, there is no 2:29:36.720 --> 2:29:39.560 like you don't tend to say something just because that 2:29:39.720 --> 2:29:43.840 you sympathize. And there are principles and values that you 2:29:44.160 --> 2:29:48.680 do not compromise in any circumstance. So equal right, justice 2:29:49.240 --> 2:29:54.960 and and inclusivity and like like celebrating of the diversity. 2:29:55.560 --> 2:29:57.920 These things are very core principles of of of the 2:29:57.959 --> 2:30:01.160 democracy that that we are like as a Burmese people 2:30:01.400 --> 2:30:04.560 asking from international community to help. What we're preaching for 2:30:04.800 --> 2:30:07.400 to ward to the democracy need to be demonstrated at home. 2:30:07.520 --> 2:30:10.880 First we need to act up on and and so 2:30:11.440 --> 2:30:15.360 I think the benchmark, there's no the benchmark shouldn't be 2:30:15.440 --> 2:30:18.199 defined to include or exclude someone based on the sympathies 2:30:18.280 --> 2:30:20.840 need to be based on the principles and values. Can 2:30:20.879 --> 2:30:23.240 you explain a little bit about the situation that range 2:30:23.240 --> 2:30:25.880 of people who have left meam or maybe they're in 2:30:25.920 --> 2:30:29.280 Cox's bizarre, maybe they're in no man's land, maybe they're 2:30:29.720 --> 2:30:32.400 they're now being moved to an island right? Can can 2:30:32.440 --> 2:30:37.760 you explain what life is like for those people? Of course, 2:30:37.879 --> 2:30:41.640 the when we can get people fleds to Bangladesh, it 2:30:42.040 --> 2:30:47.600 was attempting to survive, Uh, like they managed to survive 2:30:47.879 --> 2:30:52.000 and otherwise many died and they could be one of 2:30:52.080 --> 2:30:56.120 those who who died and they survive, meaning that these 2:30:56.240 --> 2:30:59.959 old people are have physical and mental destruction and untheless 2:31:00.040 --> 2:31:02.920 cars in their physical and mental aspects of the life. 2:31:03.280 --> 2:31:06.160 And and of course a million people in Bangladesh to 2:31:06.200 --> 2:31:09.680 be hosted by the BANGLADESHIPH government BANGLADESHIH people has been 2:31:09.760 --> 2:31:13.480 also very difficult because the resource in the given area 2:31:13.680 --> 2:31:17.760 is very limited and Bangladesh itself is a small country 2:31:17.879 --> 2:31:22.400 with with with limited resource and and we should always 2:31:22.720 --> 2:31:27.440 appreciate Bangladeship people and BANGLADESHIH government to open their arms 2:31:27.480 --> 2:31:30.920 and hurt to to to absorbs and and and a 2:31:31.000 --> 2:31:33.920 median people and and and and again. I think the 2:31:34.040 --> 2:31:36.720 problems started in Me and Mare and and the solutions 2:31:36.800 --> 2:31:38.600 need to be in Me and Mar and and people 2:31:38.680 --> 2:31:42.200 need to be going with say dignified h way to 2:31:42.320 --> 2:31:45.800 the place of origin. And and of course Bangladesh. It 2:31:45.879 --> 2:31:48.200 has been five years plus now that the people like 2:31:48.360 --> 2:31:51.960 the largest influx took place in Sucer and seventeen uh 2:31:52.040 --> 2:31:55.240 and there were repatricans settem being made and and the 2:31:55.680 --> 2:31:58.560 when people fled from My and Mar jump into the 2:31:58.640 --> 2:32:01.520 Nap River and be of bang all into those seventeen 2:32:01.560 --> 2:32:06.160 because the land was more dangerous than the sea. Situations 2:32:06.200 --> 2:32:09.080 remained very same or even worse than that now in 2:32:09.240 --> 2:32:11.480 in in mire Mar to be going back, so you 2:32:12.080 --> 2:32:15.480 you escape from a grape that you have buried, uh 2:32:16.600 --> 2:32:19.920 to be killed and being pushed to go back to 2:32:20.200 --> 2:32:21.840 to to me and mark it is as being sent 2:32:21.959 --> 2:32:23.960 him back to to the to the grape that you 2:32:24.080 --> 2:32:28.200 escape from from from dying. Uh. So the situation doesn't 2:32:28.240 --> 2:32:31.960 favor for a safe, dignified, voluntary return for the for 2:32:32.080 --> 2:32:36.120 the Reinga. That's Bangladeshi authorities are trying to find different 2:32:36.160 --> 2:32:39.520 innovative modality in different ways how to how to create 2:32:40.120 --> 2:32:44.280 sustainable situations for the renga, including relocations of the of 2:32:44.360 --> 2:32:46.920 the certain number of the of the of the Inga 2:32:47.000 --> 2:32:52.040 populations because the the the camps are very congested and 2:32:52.120 --> 2:32:55.000 the hygiene level in the camp a very low and 2:32:55.120 --> 2:32:58.000 there are a lot of also the the the crowd 2:32:58.120 --> 2:33:00.080 on like you know, if a million people in a 2:33:00.160 --> 2:33:06.120 small scale place like that's are being being closed, anything 2:33:06.200 --> 2:33:10.039 could happen anytime, you know. So the the the idea 2:33:10.200 --> 2:33:13.360 was too by the Bangladeshi government which doesn't fall into 2:33:13.959 --> 2:33:17.200 into the principle of international way of doing things, and 2:33:17.760 --> 2:33:21.320 and relocating some of these refugees to an island that 2:33:21.560 --> 2:33:25.000 has its a new islands. You know, human being has 2:33:25.080 --> 2:33:28.360 been ever lived there, and the island has been technically 2:33:28.840 --> 2:33:33.120 from various technical assessment has identified it's not livable by 2:33:33.240 --> 2:33:35.040 human being yet. And because there are a lot of 2:33:35.520 --> 2:33:38.640 like cyclones and and and flats and things like that, 2:33:38.760 --> 2:33:41.800 and it's very far away from millions of Bangladesh and 2:33:41.920 --> 2:33:46.199 and it yeah, so there is risk from UH from 2:33:46.320 --> 2:33:50.279 various perspective to be able. But despite this, Bangldeshi government 2:33:50.360 --> 2:33:54.880 has built, sheltered this and relocated UH some numbers of 2:33:55.080 --> 2:33:59.120 Rhinga and some of them went by their own will 2:34:00.320 --> 2:34:02.400 seeing that it might be a different and and some 2:34:03.200 --> 2:34:06.360 being maybe perhaps post and and of course there are 2:34:06.360 --> 2:34:09.720 a certain number of like around close to UH five 2:34:09.800 --> 2:34:13.480 to six thousand people in Norman's Land when Bangladesh at 2:34:13.520 --> 2:34:17.120 the beginning did not open its border when we're felleing 2:34:18.280 --> 2:34:20.560 and so this Norman Land we're being occupied by the 2:34:20.640 --> 2:34:23.720 nearby abilities because Bangladesh wouldn't open the gate for them 2:34:23.800 --> 2:34:26.240 and they were stuck in India. So they have happened 2:34:26.280 --> 2:34:30.080 to be stuck there since the last five years. Uh 2:34:30.240 --> 2:34:34.840 and the remaining lives in in in coxwas a districts 2:34:34.959 --> 2:34:40.840 of of Bangladesh in different parts of this this districts. 2:34:40.840 --> 2:34:43.880 So that's the situation. Yeah, that's very well said, and 2:34:43.959 --> 2:34:48.400 it's some people have have taken on recently leaving these 2:34:48.440 --> 2:34:53.039 camps in Bangladesh. They've taken on this very risky boat journey, right, 2:34:53.240 --> 2:34:55.160 I think they're going to places like Malaysia if I'm 2:34:55.160 --> 2:34:58.360 not taken Intonesia, And can you explain a little bit 2:34:58.360 --> 2:35:00.120 about like how prevalent that is in the co It's 2:35:00.160 --> 2:35:02.560 how incredibly like high riscued it is for people to 2:35:02.640 --> 2:35:07.800 take that journey. Sure, the the situations in the camp 2:35:08.520 --> 2:35:11.880 is not much different than the life that they used 2:35:11.879 --> 2:35:15.280 to live in in Indian mar Despite that, the level 2:35:15.360 --> 2:35:19.920 of the level of human rights violations and the treatment 2:35:20.000 --> 2:35:22.280 that they are having may not be the same. But 2:35:22.640 --> 2:35:25.840 Bangladesh is not a signature to nineteen fifty two Refugee 2:35:25.840 --> 2:35:30.280 Conventions and it's not legally obliged to be to be 2:35:30.360 --> 2:35:34.360 following all international norms and protocols to be to be 2:35:34.840 --> 2:35:38.400 hosting the the the the refugees. But despite they have 2:35:38.520 --> 2:35:43.240 demonstrated the humanity UH and demonstrated the moral obligations towards 2:35:43.240 --> 2:35:47.160 the humanity to to host the Median people and the 2:35:48.640 --> 2:35:51.760 then the million people. Some of them has been from 2:35:52.760 --> 2:35:55.080 ight and some of them are from nineteen, some of 2:35:55.160 --> 2:35:59.120 them are from two seventeen. Has a very dark future. 2:35:59.320 --> 2:36:02.480 They are closed in this fence camp and the movements 2:36:02.520 --> 2:36:07.320 are restricted. Access to informations are not given like the 2:36:07.400 --> 2:36:10.800 interne Access to informations are are like internet service and 2:36:10.879 --> 2:36:13.480 things like that has been denied. Access to livelihoods are 2:36:13.560 --> 2:36:16.440 denied and they're not able to legally work and solely 2:36:16.520 --> 2:36:19.840 rely onto to the International Humanity and assistem. Access to 2:36:19.920 --> 2:36:23.160 education has been denied. So the young people who are 2:36:23.160 --> 2:36:25.400 growing in this camp does not see a future that 2:36:25.520 --> 2:36:27.120 they will be able to go back to me and 2:36:27.200 --> 2:36:29.879 mar or if they live here as if you're living 2:36:30.000 --> 2:36:33.120 a debt, like you know, you don't have any any 2:36:33.200 --> 2:36:35.920 any way for what's seeing a bright fishure. So there 2:36:36.040 --> 2:36:39.080 is there is the only they don't have a best 2:36:39.120 --> 2:36:43.280 alternative to be trying to be exploring different paths and 2:36:43.320 --> 2:36:46.440 the only path it's happened to be is being created 2:36:46.560 --> 2:36:50.040 in the past. UH. In the past by some ruhingas 2:36:50.080 --> 2:36:53.879 taking these boats and making to Malaysia where they could 2:36:54.080 --> 2:36:56.600 do some domestic works and get a refugee status and 2:36:56.760 --> 2:37:00.680 maybe able to work, and and some were lucky enough 2:37:00.760 --> 2:37:03.959 to be resettled in the third country, a small number 2:37:04.360 --> 2:37:06.720 maybe less than two less than to three percent of 2:37:06.760 --> 2:37:11.560 the total total Ladyshire. So the journey is very risky. 2:37:11.720 --> 2:37:14.840 The the the the boats that they are taking the 2:37:15.400 --> 2:37:18.000 first the sea is very rough that they take, and 2:37:18.120 --> 2:37:22.240 their the infrastructure, both infrastructure that they're taking are not 2:37:23.400 --> 2:37:26.480 built like they not built in any way to be 2:37:26.560 --> 2:37:29.920 coping with this rough sea and rough rough weathers and climates. 2:37:29.959 --> 2:37:33.080 So many of these hunger people who make this less 2:37:33.120 --> 2:37:35.280 than fifty percent of them may make it to the 2:37:35.400 --> 2:37:38.400 to the destinations. Either they die on the sea, or 2:37:38.440 --> 2:37:40.720 they are being arrested by different navies and and and 2:37:41.120 --> 2:37:45.120 or they are they are being jailed by by Mia 2:37:45.720 --> 2:37:48.560 Mia and mar Junta. And in two thousand twenty two 2:37:48.800 --> 2:37:51.400 loan three thousand, five hundred more than three thousand, five 2:37:51.480 --> 2:37:55.800 hundred people including children as young as two years old, 2:37:55.840 --> 2:37:59.040 are jail to five years for trying to attempt to 2:37:59.320 --> 2:38:02.880 to go to easier So this is this is what 2:38:03.040 --> 2:38:06.920 it is happening, so the the life is meaningless there. 2:38:07.040 --> 2:38:10.120 And of course taking this journey mine that you're toosing 2:38:10.280 --> 2:38:14.080 a coin whether you get a tail or you get 2:38:14.959 --> 2:38:16.680 you get head or you got tails, you know, and 2:38:16.959 --> 2:38:20.080 and and so it's like betting your life whether if 2:38:20.120 --> 2:38:24.000 you make it, you're you're a life to somewhat level meaningful. 2:38:24.120 --> 2:38:25.680 If you don't make it your life and it is 2:38:25.680 --> 2:38:26.960 more or less the same that you will live in 2:38:27.000 --> 2:38:29.800 there in there. So that's why these are the push factors, 2:38:29.879 --> 2:38:32.880 and of course they are full factors reunifications. If a 2:38:32.959 --> 2:38:36.720 son has made UH three years ago, five years ago 2:38:37.160 --> 2:38:40.640 to to Malaysia and working in the constructions or or 2:38:40.800 --> 2:38:43.960 or or or or gardening like levers and and you 2:38:44.080 --> 2:38:46.520 have a remaining family in the camp and you don't 2:38:46.520 --> 2:38:48.760 want to see your family in that situation, and you're 2:38:48.760 --> 2:38:51.440 gonna bring your family kids or children's or wife and 2:38:51.680 --> 2:38:54.320 you do that. And lastly, also they are growing youth 2:38:54.440 --> 2:38:57.200 in Malaysia who are who want to marry thee and 2:38:57.280 --> 2:38:59.640 maintain the culture and language and things like that, so 2:38:59.760 --> 2:39:02.480 they want to have rights bringing from the camp and 2:39:02.640 --> 2:39:06.600 and so they're they're different push factor pull factor as 2:39:06.640 --> 2:39:09.960 well from from Malaysia, but the primary factor is the 2:39:10.000 --> 2:39:14.160 push factor in India and Martin in Bangladesh, right, yeah, 2:39:14.240 --> 2:39:17.240 and it's it's perfectly reasonable for people to want, so yeah, 2:39:17.400 --> 2:39:20.600 some futures and some chance to realize their own life 2:39:20.640 --> 2:39:24.320 and their goals. So can you explain people will probably 2:39:24.360 --> 2:39:27.880 have seen like I think we're recording this on Thursday, UM, 2:39:28.280 --> 2:39:30.480 which is the look at the date of the nineteen 2:39:31.480 --> 2:39:33.600 and people will have seen the last couple of days 2:39:33.680 --> 2:39:38.360 maybe videos of fires in no Man's land, and they 2:39:38.400 --> 2:39:41.800 will probably have seen like some acronyms, which are a 2:39:41.840 --> 2:39:43.960 lot of acronyms when when you're reading about me M 2:39:44.040 --> 2:39:46.880 I can be very confusing. So could you explain a 2:39:46.920 --> 2:39:50.240 little bit about who these two groups that we've seen, 2:39:50.360 --> 2:39:51.960 right the A R S A and the R s O, 2:39:52.720 --> 2:39:55.800 who they are and what they what they represent, and 2:39:56.080 --> 2:39:59.520 perhaps why these two groups who are nominally Brahingia are 2:39:59.560 --> 2:40:03.480 fighting each other. So the in the context of ME 2:40:03.600 --> 2:40:08.879 and MATH politics, the ethnic people UH has been fighting 2:40:09.040 --> 2:40:12.480 for decades and and and decades UH with ME and 2:40:12.560 --> 2:40:18.560 mom milstry and Bamah supremacy like larger majority supremacy UH. 2:40:19.720 --> 2:40:22.480 At the beginning, they were attempted during the time of 2:40:22.560 --> 2:40:28.119 independency through reconciliations and dial of meaning like without arms. 2:40:29.160 --> 2:40:34.840 But the language again being understood by the by the 2:40:35.280 --> 2:40:38.800 Myanmar larger majority, is the language that they speak as well. 2:40:39.240 --> 2:40:41.880 So then ethnic people started to grab the arms and 2:40:42.959 --> 2:40:47.760 resist control their territory to uh to attempted to control 2:40:47.800 --> 2:40:51.160 the territory in order to get the equal right and 2:40:52.240 --> 2:40:54.959 decide for their own future, be part of the decisions 2:40:55.000 --> 2:40:59.000 that collectively impact the nations and and basically equal right, 2:40:59.160 --> 2:41:01.680 justice and and and those those things. That's what ethnic 2:41:01.720 --> 2:41:06.960 people are are fighting for and giving their lives and 2:41:07.080 --> 2:41:09.880 livelihoods uh. It's nothing less than that and nothing more 2:41:09.920 --> 2:41:12.400 than That's very simple. We want to live with dignity 2:41:12.680 --> 2:41:16.600 freely equally with anyone else. And and so many ethnic 2:41:16.680 --> 2:41:20.640 revolutionary organizations forms came came up in different part of 2:41:20.720 --> 2:41:25.040 me and Mar representing different ethnic and Ruhenga also used 2:41:25.040 --> 2:41:27.360 to be one of those back in nineteen fifty uh 2:41:28.080 --> 2:41:32.200 for after nineteen forty eight dependent and nineteen fifty two, 2:41:32.320 --> 2:41:34.920 Ruheinga is the first one to drop the gun in 2:41:35.000 --> 2:41:37.240 a change of the peace with the government, saying that 2:41:37.640 --> 2:41:39.320 we are peace loving people and as long as you 2:41:39.400 --> 2:41:42.520 give us what what what our identity and and and 2:41:42.640 --> 2:41:45.640 we're able to and we are. So then there's a 2:41:45.760 --> 2:41:47.840 certain period of time that the Ruhenga people did not 2:41:48.000 --> 2:41:52.760 have an arm oppositions group because I am someone who 2:41:53.200 --> 2:41:56.000 believe in non violent movement, but in a context like 2:41:56.120 --> 2:41:59.560 me and mar Again, non violence movement wouldn't go anywhere 2:41:59.800 --> 2:42:03.560 if it's worked seventy years. Uh wouldn't have the longest 2:42:04.000 --> 2:42:07.360 singular war in the world more than seventy years, right, 2:42:07.640 --> 2:42:10.480 So we need to be practical and seeing the reality 2:42:10.920 --> 2:42:15.600 like that. So then uh, then again these things happened, 2:42:15.920 --> 2:42:18.720 and then and the Ruhinga things. Okay, then what we 2:42:18.760 --> 2:42:22.080 have been promised and what we have were we're being 2:42:23.000 --> 2:42:26.440 told to be promised to be given is not given. 2:42:26.520 --> 2:42:28.960 So we have to grab the gun again and form 2:42:29.240 --> 2:42:31.880 U do as the others are doing in order to 2:42:32.120 --> 2:42:35.440 to uh. So, the Ruhinga Solidarity Organization has been formed 2:42:35.520 --> 2:42:38.800 and it has been one of the popular organizations, getting 2:42:38.920 --> 2:42:41.920 a lot of popularity from the Ruhinga community. And then 2:42:42.000 --> 2:42:44.920 there were issues within the institution that has been growing. 2:42:44.959 --> 2:42:48.440 Of course, uh they were not able to maintain uh, 2:42:48.680 --> 2:42:52.840 the the institutional growth and institutional resource managements. And then 2:42:52.879 --> 2:42:56.320 the institution collapse and as well as it has to 2:42:56.400 --> 2:42:58.560 do something with that, like you don't have a territory 2:42:58.680 --> 2:43:03.000 like other other other arm oppositions group will will be 2:43:03.120 --> 2:43:06.520 in stations in me and Mark where we're stations in 2:43:06.560 --> 2:43:10.320 Bangladesh and Bangladesh government were not really supporting and not 2:43:10.920 --> 2:43:15.400 for them to survive with with with to enhandle its 2:43:15.440 --> 2:43:18.640 military capability. And of course there are several other other 2:43:18.800 --> 2:43:22.640 other things and and so then it's disappeared in between 2:43:22.720 --> 2:43:26.240 and then and two thousand fourteen. Uh, this guy, a 2:43:26.280 --> 2:43:31.360 guy called um this the guy who is leading currently 2:43:31.440 --> 2:43:36.080 the the the are se Arkanslevations Army who was born 2:43:36.120 --> 2:43:41.240 in in Pakistan and grew up in Saudi Arabia. His parents, 2:43:42.480 --> 2:43:45.800 he claimed his parents is Rhingen. Of course, uh he 2:43:45.879 --> 2:43:48.280 speaks the ring language. That's mean, it's indicated that he 2:43:48.640 --> 2:43:51.920 uh he's and came to to our kind of state 2:43:52.040 --> 2:43:54.400 to mobilize people saying that you needed to grab the gun. 2:43:54.480 --> 2:43:58.480 And this is what then people of course who have 2:43:58.680 --> 2:44:01.680 critical thinking skills and not believe into things because it's 2:44:01.720 --> 2:44:04.680 need to be from and within, and someone who does 2:44:04.760 --> 2:44:08.199 not understand how many and more politics look like cannot 2:44:08.280 --> 2:44:11.560 lead revolutions because revolutionary has to do a lot with 2:44:11.640 --> 2:44:14.720 the with the politics political landscape as well in the 2:44:14.800 --> 2:44:17.440 country and and uh but however there's a certain number 2:44:17.440 --> 2:44:20.320 of people who believe in it in very small numbers, 2:44:20.720 --> 2:44:24.480 and UH and Inga didn't want to again fight or 2:44:24.680 --> 2:44:27.680 or entry into violence, and they just want to live peacefully. 2:44:27.800 --> 2:44:32.560 And and that uh and today are resilient to to 2:44:32.720 --> 2:44:37.560 the to to what they're trying to UH gain equally 2:44:37.600 --> 2:44:42.200 as others. And and so then our consolvation Servey um 2:44:43.160 --> 2:44:46.560 e r S. He has attacked the post thirty different 2:44:46.600 --> 2:44:49.840 police forced in two thousand seventeen. That's where the collective 2:44:49.879 --> 2:44:51.920 punishment has been given as a result of the ring 2:44:52.400 --> 2:44:56.280 Ruhinga community. And it's not collective collective action. It was 2:44:56.440 --> 2:45:01.080 individual's action. Certain hundreds of people gather together and at 2:45:01.120 --> 2:45:03.560 tem police force and and and the whole regae population 2:45:03.600 --> 2:45:06.160 has been punished. So then followed by that as well, 2:45:06.200 --> 2:45:09.800 ours has been free student of judging themselves. And then 2:45:10.200 --> 2:45:15.160 so our are ruing A solebrity organizations also pop up 2:45:15.200 --> 2:45:19.960 parlelly back into nineteen and and and of course the 2:45:20.600 --> 2:45:24.560 ideology that they stent are slightly different from one another, 2:45:25.080 --> 2:45:29.560 and so they they they that's why the clash happened. 2:45:29.640 --> 2:45:35.640 And and UH ring A Solitary organization think that like 2:45:35.800 --> 2:45:38.800 the way that ours has been conducting and they're responsible. 2:45:38.840 --> 2:45:41.680 They they for what happened to the Ruhinga people as 2:45:41.720 --> 2:45:45.600 as collectively genocides and things I think like that, creating 2:45:45.640 --> 2:45:49.280 opportunities for Burmese military to to wipe out through Hingen, 2:45:49.360 --> 2:45:53.680 deported through Hunga. And so they were this political disagreement 2:45:53.760 --> 2:45:56.120 between these two groups and this no one land has 2:45:56.160 --> 2:46:00.760 been mostly occupied within the Ruhinga refugees. There some are 2:46:00.800 --> 2:46:04.280 some members are often try to to enter there and 2:46:04.879 --> 2:46:09.200 and and stations there and so recently UH the what 2:46:09.400 --> 2:46:12.680 we have learned from the ground is that our ringous 2:46:12.680 --> 2:46:17.560 solidarity organizations UH route out and operations to remove them 2:46:17.600 --> 2:46:20.720 from there and so that the Ringery within the normal 2:46:20.840 --> 2:46:23.520 lands could live peacefully without crimes and things like that. 2:46:24.160 --> 2:46:27.720 And and that's how the fighters started and and it's 2:46:27.840 --> 2:46:31.480 escalated and there were two hundred houses being burned on 2:46:32.000 --> 2:46:35.920 shelters ring refugee shelters. Around two thousand, five hundred to 2:46:36.000 --> 2:46:41.080 three thousand people has been UH has to be displaced. 2:46:41.720 --> 2:46:45.120 They were not allowed to enter to Bangladesh because normal 2:46:45.240 --> 2:46:47.959 land is not accessible by neither parties and and it's 2:46:48.040 --> 2:46:50.760 it's just in between. So some of them has destroyed 2:46:50.800 --> 2:46:53.160 the fans toward to Burma and enter to their because 2:46:53.200 --> 2:46:55.240 they just from the nearby abilities. They could see their 2:46:55.280 --> 2:46:57.640 abilities for five years, but they could not go back, 2:46:58.120 --> 2:47:03.200 so they so they so they went back there. But 2:47:03.400 --> 2:47:06.680 now myrmam latry is pushing them out from from there 2:47:06.800 --> 2:47:10.760 back to the Norman lands. Yeah, it's just yeah, a 2:47:10.879 --> 2:47:15.680 terrible situation. Um and thebilities are the only armed groups 2:47:15.760 --> 2:47:17.560 in that state, right there are other round groups, but 2:47:17.720 --> 2:47:20.960 like this, this sort of explains it more succinctly, Like 2:47:21.040 --> 2:47:22.840 if we get into the other round groups, it gets 2:47:22.879 --> 2:47:27.600 even more complicated. And so I wonder what people listening, 2:47:27.680 --> 2:47:32.400 obviously will They've they've heard a lot about about the 2:47:32.840 --> 2:47:35.760 conflict in Burma, about the various different groups that are 2:47:35.800 --> 2:47:39.840 being persecuted by the Burmese military. How can they help 2:47:40.000 --> 2:47:43.160 specifically with this issue? Is is there ways that people 2:47:43.240 --> 2:47:48.400 can can help out? I think we have seen how 2:47:48.480 --> 2:47:54.439 the world came together to help Ukraine people unjustly illegally 2:47:55.440 --> 2:48:00.040 to be attacked by by Russia and and threatening the 2:48:00.120 --> 2:48:03.360 democratic society of the world. And and that has been 2:48:03.440 --> 2:48:06.760 very inspiring appreciated and and and we stand with the 2:48:06.840 --> 2:48:10.480 Ukrainian people and people in Burmah has the life of 2:48:10.560 --> 2:48:12.960 the value of the life of the people in Burma 2:48:13.080 --> 2:48:16.280 has also there is no difference in life. You can 2:48:16.400 --> 2:48:19.640 buy one, you know. So we have been the people 2:48:19.680 --> 2:48:23.600 in Myanmar has been fighting for for UH the cost 2:48:23.680 --> 2:48:26.920 of life and livelihoods today with whatever means that they 2:48:27.000 --> 2:48:29.279 have to make this country back to the part of democracy. 2:48:29.800 --> 2:48:34.800 And and so international community should do beyond releasing the 2:48:34.920 --> 2:48:38.960 statement or or or of concern. And a statement of 2:48:39.080 --> 2:48:42.720 concern maybe maybe may name and shame and may put 2:48:42.800 --> 2:48:48.080 political pressure and political pressure. UH is not they think 2:48:48.160 --> 2:48:50.960 that being cared by by the by the by the junta. 2:48:51.440 --> 2:48:55.080 So the the the total enemy of the overall people, 2:48:55.120 --> 2:48:58.760 including drinking people, are the military and and and they're 2:48:58.800 --> 2:49:00.960 the one who has destroyed this country. And they're beyond 2:49:01.000 --> 2:49:04.480 who is destroying and they are responsible primarily responsible um 2:49:05.040 --> 2:49:08.320 people institutions who wiped out through ungen, who carried all 2:49:08.360 --> 2:49:12.120 the genocide. So I think the international community should do 2:49:12.440 --> 2:49:18.279 beyond beyond sanctions, arm embargo and and and respective citizens 2:49:19.200 --> 2:49:21.800 of the country should claim to their respective government to 2:49:21.920 --> 2:49:25.000 do more for Purmes people and the Runga people to 2:49:25.120 --> 2:49:28.960 deministrate the moral obligations to war to the humanity. And 2:49:29.120 --> 2:49:32.199 in twenty one century genocides took place while the world 2:49:32.320 --> 2:49:36.879 was watching, and we set in the United Nations back 2:49:36.920 --> 2:49:42.600 in nineteen uh nineteen fifty forty eight that never again. 2:49:43.200 --> 2:49:48.199 And and it's very shameful that it could, that genocide 2:49:48.200 --> 2:49:50.680 could take place in the eyes of eight billion people 2:49:50.720 --> 2:49:53.959 in twenty century and modern age and the world failed 2:49:55.320 --> 2:49:59.800 to protect the Runga. This party. There has been compelling stories, 2:50:00.040 --> 2:50:03.920 immages and settle actories and and and still it's continued 2:50:04.000 --> 2:50:07.640 to be so and followed by that crimes against community, 2:50:07.720 --> 2:50:10.960 war crimes has been being committed continually by the by 2:50:11.000 --> 2:50:14.520 the same military that committed genocide. And I think the 2:50:14.600 --> 2:50:19.360 international community will have at some point to answer to 2:50:19.480 --> 2:50:25.000 themselves on their beliefs of the humanity. Yeah, like I 2:50:25.080 --> 2:50:28.000 think the international community let's happen for too long, and 2:50:28.080 --> 2:50:30.640 they ignored it for too long, and then now it 2:50:30.760 --> 2:50:33.760 always happens right Like it's like for Coast Boomerang, the 2:50:33.879 --> 2:50:37.920 violence spreads and gets used in the metropol and it's 2:50:37.959 --> 2:50:40.120 deeply upsetting. What does that support look like from the 2:50:40.160 --> 2:50:46.160 international community like does that mean ah Man pads for PDF? 2:50:46.640 --> 2:50:49.800 Does it mean recognizing the National Unity Government? Like what 2:50:50.000 --> 2:50:55.279 concrete things should the community be doing? The international community 2:50:55.320 --> 2:51:01.600 should recognize there again, the there are some issues that 2:51:01.760 --> 2:51:04.960 need to be fixed within the the the National Unity Government, 2:51:05.160 --> 2:51:10.080 particularly the inclusions of the Ruhinga and other like it's 2:51:10.320 --> 2:51:13.959 it's positions to to the religious, other religious and ethnic minorities, 2:51:14.000 --> 2:51:17.199 particularly those are small and that need to be fixed. 2:51:17.480 --> 2:51:21.040 And international community should do it in an incentivice way 2:51:21.200 --> 2:51:23.680 that Okay, you do this and we will do this 2:51:23.840 --> 2:51:28.160 for you, and and and the recognitions come with incentive 2:51:28.240 --> 2:51:34.160 of supporting, uh, supporting because it's only legitimate. Whether we 2:51:34.240 --> 2:51:37.120 like the National Unity Government or not. We don't have 2:51:37.200 --> 2:51:42.040 the best alternative to it. It's democratically elected. And and 2:51:42.240 --> 2:51:44.560 there is a lot of issues within the within the 2:51:44.800 --> 2:51:49.280 within the within the the National Unity Government, particularly when 2:51:49.320 --> 2:51:51.680 it's come to the rocking issues. So these need to 2:51:51.760 --> 2:51:53.840 be dealt in in National Energy Government. I have been 2:51:53.920 --> 2:51:58.120 consistently advising them to fix this, acting beyond policy and 2:51:58.280 --> 2:52:03.880 and and and showing state level prioritized agenda with concrete 2:52:03.959 --> 2:52:08.000 milestone to to to the change toward to the Rhinga UH. 2:52:08.680 --> 2:52:11.760 And of course, parallel to that, international community should ensure 2:52:11.879 --> 2:52:15.320 that big supports are being given, being recognized and and 2:52:16.080 --> 2:52:19.280 and and in order to win these revolutions, which has 2:52:19.360 --> 2:52:25.040 shaken the very institution that has consumed the resource of 2:52:25.120 --> 2:52:28.400 the country in various means and ways UH. Some UH 2:52:28.640 --> 2:52:31.039 and one of the strongest institution has been shaken by 2:52:31.080 --> 2:52:34.920 the young people UH with very small means that they 2:52:34.920 --> 2:52:39.080 are very small and time to time, very innovative and 2:52:39.320 --> 2:52:42.760 and and and utilizing whatever means that they had. An 2:52:42.800 --> 2:52:47.280 international community should provide support to PIA to be first 2:52:47.360 --> 2:52:51.800 and foremost institutionalizing and and and and capacity building enhancing 2:52:52.320 --> 2:52:56.440 acting upon international standard. We are UH way of operating 2:52:56.480 --> 2:52:58.880 as as a as a military group and and of 2:52:59.000 --> 2:53:02.760 course when you are being established as a as a 2:53:02.840 --> 2:53:08.560 military UH institutions and it's is it's being formed by 2:53:08.640 --> 2:53:11.600 the by the legal government of Myanmar. And to support 2:53:11.720 --> 2:53:15.000 this this this military and many many nations are getting 2:53:15.040 --> 2:53:19.039 military assistance package and and I think international communities should 2:53:19.040 --> 2:53:22.240 have no problem to provide military system package too. Of 2:53:22.360 --> 2:53:25.240 course in a very principles and value based with with 2:53:25.280 --> 2:53:28.800 the value baste approach and and and and and let's 2:53:28.840 --> 2:53:31.720 include the technical support to to to set up the 2:53:31.800 --> 2:53:35.439 mechanisms to held the accountable and to ensure the transparencient 2:53:35.480 --> 2:53:39.240 accountable across the spectrum. Yeah, yeah, I think that's that's 2:53:39.360 --> 2:53:41.440 very well said. And they do tend like if people 2:53:41.480 --> 2:53:44.040 aren't familiar with the way the PDFs have been organized 2:53:44.120 --> 2:53:47.120 like they they have been very respectful of like norms 2:53:47.200 --> 2:53:49.680 and laws of war and things like that, which obviously 2:53:49.760 --> 2:53:55.360 that these military have not. And I think an institutions 2:53:55.440 --> 2:53:58.480 that a group that has been with hundred hundred thousands 2:53:58.480 --> 2:54:03.720 of people, young people with no prior military experience and 2:54:04.320 --> 2:54:09.199 mostly operating in a very limited, uh to no resource 2:54:09.320 --> 2:54:13.520 context and being able to respect the human rights and 2:54:13.920 --> 2:54:18.040 human dignity should be recognized. You know there when you 2:54:18.240 --> 2:54:21.000 you have a gun, and there are there are things 2:54:21.080 --> 2:54:23.520 that happen and need to be justified in and and 2:54:23.640 --> 2:54:27.040 being held accountable for. But I'm saying that, I'm not 2:54:27.120 --> 2:54:28.800 saying that it should be a lot in any any 2:54:28.840 --> 2:54:31.520 any kind of misconduct within the military systems need to 2:54:31.600 --> 2:54:34.840 be investigated properly and take actions upon and held accountable 2:54:35.120 --> 2:54:37.840 those who gave these who carried out these actions, and 2:54:37.920 --> 2:54:40.640 who gave common to carry out this action but the 2:54:40.720 --> 2:54:43.280 number of cases related to the to the to the 2:54:43.800 --> 2:54:48.640 to the to the PDP has been significantly low. And 2:54:49.040 --> 2:54:50.840 when when it's come to the to the human right 2:54:50.920 --> 2:54:54.320 violations and and it has to be zero and then 2:54:54.520 --> 2:54:57.440 one is too much. But I'm saying compared to UH 2:54:57.600 --> 2:55:00.520 to UH and and and I think cont need support 2:55:00.600 --> 2:55:02.880 need to be given there in order to to to 2:55:03.080 --> 2:55:06.640 enhance their capacity to defeat the junta plus to defeat 2:55:06.680 --> 2:55:09.920 it in the principle and value based with the principle 2:55:09.959 --> 2:55:14.360 and value based approach. Yeah, yeah, certainly they could definitely do. 2:55:14.480 --> 2:55:16.960 Like the people we've spoken to a terribly equipped by 2:55:17.000 --> 2:55:20.879 any modern standards, incredibly brave and innovative. They could certainly 2:55:20.959 --> 2:55:23.360 do a lot better. They have a lot more. Okay, 2:55:23.400 --> 2:55:25.640 where can people if people want to follow along with 2:55:25.800 --> 2:55:28.600 your work, which is very impressive, how can they find you? 2:55:28.720 --> 2:55:30.959 Do you have like do you want to share your 2:55:31.000 --> 2:55:34.440 Twitter account or a website? Maybe? Where can people keep 2:55:34.520 --> 2:55:37.200 up with you? So? I am on Twitter and Facebook 2:55:37.240 --> 2:55:41.120 mostly and my tutor is a k move two UH 2:55:41.280 --> 2:55:44.440 and which you can see it's with my pictures and 2:55:44.640 --> 2:55:47.320 and I have put my bio as well there and 2:55:47.400 --> 2:55:49.760 I'm also also very active on the Facebook and what 2:55:50.480 --> 2:55:52.840 the work related. Most of the work that I do 2:55:53.640 --> 2:55:58.480 UH are being not everything, but some part that international 2:55:58.520 --> 2:56:02.840 community need to know are being portrait there. And particularly UH, 2:56:03.640 --> 2:56:07.000 the the human rights situations related to the Ruhinga and 2:56:07.080 --> 2:56:12.240 Rhinga in Bangladesh are being being being shared there in 2:56:12.320 --> 2:56:15.440 a timely, very timely manner. Sometimes even lives. You know, 2:56:15.520 --> 2:56:20.760 it's happening now and being and yeah, yeah, you've been 2:56:20.879 --> 2:56:23.800 very good at that. I poo your Twitter account. It's 2:56:24.000 --> 2:56:26.320 very informative and it helps me stay informed. So it's 2:56:26.440 --> 2:56:28.880 it's a k m o E two if people are 2:56:29.879 --> 2:56:32.200 searching for it. Thank you so much for giving us 2:56:32.400 --> 2:56:34.520 some of your evening. I really really appreciate your time. 2:56:34.560 --> 2:56:36.119 Is there anything else you want to get to before 2:56:36.160 --> 2:56:38.520 we finish up now? It's lovely to be part of 2:56:38.600 --> 2:56:40.360 the program, and thank you so much for helping me 2:56:40.440 --> 2:56:46.400 once again, Thank you very much. Hey, we'll be back 2:56:46.480 --> 2:56:49.640 Monday with more episodes every week from now until the 2:56:49.680 --> 2:56:52.200 heat death of the Universe. It could happen Here is 2:56:52.200 --> 2:56:54.920 a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from 2:56:54.959 --> 2:56:57.600 cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot 2:56:57.640 --> 2:56:59.720 com or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, 2:56:59.720 --> 2:57:02.920 Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can 2:57:02.959 --> 2:57:05.640 find sources for It could happen here, Updated monthly at 2:57:05.680 --> 2:57:08.879 cool Zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.