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Speaker 1: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a completion episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Hey, everybody, Robert here. UM.

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Speaker 1: I recorded this with Jason about two days before UM

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Speaker 1: Wizards of the Coast put out an announcement completely backpedaling

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Speaker 1: on everything they had been planning to do to the

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Speaker 1: Open Gaming License UM. Of survey of fifteen thousand fans

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Speaker 1: said they were not happy with the Wizards, UH the

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Speaker 1: authorizing UM the one point out open gaming license and uh,

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Speaker 1: I mean, what it looks like is a lot of

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Speaker 1: people unregistered from D and D beyond and UM. A

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Speaker 1: lot of people called in complaining and the numbers folks

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Speaker 1: at Wizards panicked. UM and as a result, they are

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Speaker 1: completely folding on the plans to rescind or de authorize

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Speaker 1: the Open Gaming License UM and in factive announced that

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Speaker 1: they are making it UH the exact terms they use

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Speaker 1: are irrevocable, and uh, yeah, that's that's good. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: they put everything under an irrevocable Creative Commons license. So

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Speaker 1: this is all just breaking, um, But I think it's

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Speaker 1: broadly good news. Anytime a giant company chooses to do

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Speaker 1: something kind of crummy with a piece of what what

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Speaker 1: I would say is actually pretty meaningful intellectual heritage. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and then they get slapped down and panic and reverse course,

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Speaker 1: that's a good thing. Um. It shows a number of things,

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Speaker 1: which one of which probably the most important of which

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Speaker 1: is that the community of people who recognize their value

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Speaker 1: in these kinds of games, in this h this pastime,

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Speaker 1: this recreational activity, um also fundamentally value the essence of

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Speaker 1: like what is open source ideology, which is nice, Like,

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Speaker 1: it's nice to know that the open source folks we

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Speaker 1: can still throw a punch every now and again, even

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Speaker 1: if it's just a punch at Wizards of the Coast.

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Speaker 1: So happy ending, everybody, Happy ending. Also, the good folks

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Speaker 1: at Pizo sold out of eight months worth of Pathfinder

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Speaker 1: books in like two weeks, so that's nice too. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it could happen. Here is the podcast that you are

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Speaker 1: listening to right now, I am Robert Evans. This is

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Speaker 1: a show about things falling apart and sometimes putting them

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Speaker 1: back together. And today we're we're taking a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a different tax. In recent weeks, you've listened to

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Speaker 1: us cover a wide variety of issues, from conflicts in

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Speaker 1: places like me and mar two conflicts here at home

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Speaker 1: in the city of Atlanta, UM, to deep dives in

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Speaker 1: history and all that all that good stuff that that

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Speaker 1: you know and of us. For today, we are talking

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Speaker 1: about a subject that is unusually close to my heart.

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Speaker 1: Dungeons and Dragons. Now, I'm gonna guess, just given the

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Speaker 1: nature of our listenership, a decent chunk of you grew

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Speaker 1: up playing d and d UM, and just because of

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Speaker 1: how really shockingly suddenly it's become much more popular than

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Speaker 1: it than it ever was previously, and much more mainstream.

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Speaker 1: A lot of you who may have encountered as an adult, Um,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot that's actually been written, kind of sociologically

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Speaker 1: on on what Dungeons and Dragons is. A One point

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Speaker 1: that some people will make is that it's it's kind

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Speaker 1: of the first new game that we had that that

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Speaker 1: human beings made up since like chess um, by which

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Speaker 1: I mean you you have had war games for a

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Speaker 1: very long period of time. But the concept of a

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Speaker 1: role playing game and the way that that D and

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Speaker 1: D is where you're essentially sitting down with a group

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Speaker 1: of people and engaging in an act of collaborative storytelling

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Speaker 1: that's kind of buttressed by a system of rules that's

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Speaker 1: actually a prey the new idea. Now. Now, elements of

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Speaker 1: this have existed forever um and in fact, kind of

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Speaker 1: an interesting fact you'll run into is that in the

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Speaker 1: late medieval period a lot of jousts had role playing elements,

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Speaker 1: including ones were like rulers and and their their court

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Speaker 1: would dress up as the knights of the round table

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Speaker 1: and act in character as those nights. So elements of

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Speaker 1: all of this stuff have existed for a while. But

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Speaker 1: when Dungeons and Dragons kind of came together as a

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Speaker 1: game for the first time, it was it is kind

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Speaker 1: of worth seeing it as as something really new and

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Speaker 1: valuable in the history of play and the history of

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Speaker 1: human creativity. Um So, as a result of that, I

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Speaker 1: do kind of think, I personally think there's something a

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Speaker 1: little bit sacred about that that basic idea, and one

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Speaker 1: of the things that's really interesting to me about the

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Speaker 1: industry that grew up around Dungeons and Dragons is that

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Speaker 1: there have always been a lot of people in it

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Speaker 1: who I think feel the same way UM and I

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Speaker 1: think one of these people was a guy named Ryan Dancy,

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Speaker 1: and Ryan Dancy Um was vice president in charge of

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Speaker 1: Dungeons and Dragons at Wizards of the Coast for a

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Speaker 1: while UM and he helped actually negotiate the sale of

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Speaker 1: the Dungeons and Dragons property to Wizards of the Coast

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Speaker 1: when the company that had been distributing it fell apart.

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Speaker 1: And Dancy was a big part of the institution in

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Speaker 1: the year two thousand of what became known as the

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Speaker 1: Open Gaming License. And basically what this meant is that

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Speaker 1: the set of rules that that D and D worked by,

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Speaker 1: and at a round two thousand, which was I think

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Speaker 1: you would call it like three point oh, was the

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Speaker 1: system in place basically got elements of the mechanics got

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Speaker 1: effectively open sourced. UM and so Wizards of the Coast

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Speaker 1: UM went from what had been the previous move of

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Speaker 1: the people who had owned D and D, which was

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Speaker 1: kind of to oppose people trying to make third party

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Speaker 1: content using the ruled source to embracing it and allowing

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Speaker 1: it to do that freely. UM. And now I'm going

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Speaker 1: to introduce our guest who was one of the people who,

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Speaker 1: uh is kind of the one of the most influence

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Speaker 1: will folks in what happened after this, because once the

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Speaker 1: Open Gaming License came into effect, there's suddenly this galaxy

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Speaker 1: of new games and supplemental materials that people start making, UM,

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Speaker 1: which you know, Wizards is not profiting from directly, but

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Speaker 1: which the hobby profits from. UM. And one of the

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Speaker 1: people who has who has been most influential in that,

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Speaker 1: is our guest today, Jason Bollman. Jason, you are the

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Speaker 1: game a lead game designer at Piazzo and the creator

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Speaker 1: of Pathfinder, which is the I mean, it's not Dungeons

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Speaker 1: and Dragons, but it uses as its base that kind

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Speaker 1: of open gaming UH system, and it's it's what I

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Speaker 1: play when I get a chance to sit down and

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Speaker 1: play a role playing game. So, first off, Jason, thank

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Speaker 1: you for several thousand hours of of my my childhood

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Speaker 1: and early adulthood UM spent playing Pathfinder. Yeah, well thanks

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Speaker 1: for having me. And yeah, PISO kind of spun off

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Speaker 1: from Wizards of the Coast, Um, you know, back in

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Speaker 1: the early days of the open game license, and we

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Speaker 1: were there official publishers of their magazine until that kind

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Speaker 1: of came to an end, and then we we started

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Speaker 1: making our own game based off the open game license

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Speaker 1: and did I did I? Did I get all that

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Speaker 1: right earlier? Do you have any kind of clarifications she'd

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Speaker 1: like to add before we move further into the conflict,

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Speaker 1: and there is a conflict. We're not just talking about

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Speaker 1: how cool d there are. I think there's a there's

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Speaker 1: an interesting thing to note about games. Games are kind

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Speaker 1: of weird when it comes to copyright and ownership, and

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Speaker 1: it's kind of why the open game license is so important. Right.

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Speaker 1: So TSR, the company that owned Dungeons and Dragons before

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Speaker 1: Wizards of the Coast, was pretty pretty litigious, as you mentioned, um,

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Speaker 1: but they ended up getting into kind of a bind

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Speaker 1: because you know, the game itself is one that encourages

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Speaker 1: people to make their own content, to kind of homebrew

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Speaker 1: stuff and invent their own stories. And what it comes

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Speaker 1: down to is that you know, ultimately game mechanics can't

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Speaker 1: be copyrighted. That that's been long held, that that those

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Speaker 1: sorts of things you cannot copyright. That's why you see

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Speaker 1: so many versions of like scrabble that aren't scrabble. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And it's why anyone can make a basketball team or

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Speaker 1: a basketball league and play basketball. You don't have to

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Speaker 1: get the NBA's approval to play fucking basketball, exactly, exactly.

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Speaker 1: So the Open Game License wasn't about giving everyone permission

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Speaker 1: to use rules, which is something that could already kind

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Speaker 1: of do. It was about giving them kind of a

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Speaker 1: safe harbor, a place that everybody involved kind of knew

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Speaker 1: that this was all okay, no one was going to

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Speaker 1: be filing frivolous, frivolous lawsuits, and that you could use

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Speaker 1: kind of direct references without having to be a copyright

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Speaker 1: lawyer or retaining a giant staff. It allowed a lot

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Speaker 1: of very little businesses to kind of spring up, making, Hey,

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Speaker 1: here's my cool adventure that I ran from my group.

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Speaker 1: You can buy it and play it with your group. Now,

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Speaker 1: little things like that, And I don't think it's for

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Speaker 1: nothing that number one a huge thing. And this has

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Speaker 1: become as Silicon Valley has kind of turned more mercenary,

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Speaker 1: This has become less of a thing but a massive thing.

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Speaker 1: And the early history of Silicon Valley in the tech

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Speaker 1: industry was the open source movement, you know, was the

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Speaker 1: idea that a lot of people should be able to collaboratively,

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Speaker 1: work and iterate on things without having to worry about

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Speaker 1: who owns the basic idea, right, you know. Lennox Is

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Speaker 1: is a great example of this, and the the ideology

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Speaker 1: behind the open source movement was a big influence in

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Speaker 1: the open gaming license. I mean, Dancy kind of admits

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Speaker 1: that himself. There's a quote where he says that, like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think we need to embrace some of these ideas

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Speaker 1: at the heart of the open source movement because I

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Speaker 1: think it will be a good business decision for Wizards

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Speaker 1: of the Coast. It will on the whole, even if

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Speaker 1: we're not profiting directly from every sort of like thing

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Speaker 1: that people make off of this, the fact that it's

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Speaker 1: going to cause the hobby to explode will benefit us.

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Speaker 1: And I think he's been proven right in that because

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Speaker 1: D and D has gone from this thing that like

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Speaker 1: I got bullied for in high school too. There's these

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Speaker 1: massive podcast there's been TV shows that are just people

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Speaker 1: playing the game. Game like it has reached this level.

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Speaker 1: I never really expected it would of, like critical and

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Speaker 1: and mass acceptance, which has been really cool to see.

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Speaker 1: It's been one of the things that I've been happiest

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Speaker 1: about watching occurs socially in the last couple of decades. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you can't disagree that the business case wasn't super tight, right,

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Speaker 1: the way that the O g L got all of

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Speaker 1: the other game companies, many of which had their own

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Speaker 1: entirely different games in the early two thousands, they all

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Speaker 1: abandoned them and started making content for D and d UM,

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Speaker 1: and that just kind of carried forward a large swath

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Speaker 1: of kind of the game industry, which is pretty cottage, right.

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Speaker 1: There's a bunch of small players. There's not a lot

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Speaker 1: of large corporations in here. Um. You know, in fact,

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Speaker 1: Wizards is by far the largest, And so you've got

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Speaker 1: a bunch of small game companies that are are seeing

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Speaker 1: this as a great opportunity to kind of play in

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Speaker 1: the big pool. And a lot of them followed suit.

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Speaker 1: So obviously the reason we are here today is that

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Speaker 1: a paul has been cast recently over what has up

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Speaker 1: until now been kind of a lovely thing. Um. Wizards

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Speaker 1: of the Coast got a new CEO pretty recently, right, Um,

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Speaker 1: Cynthia Williams is relatively new. Yeah, and and there is

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Speaker 1: basically murmuring coming from the company that's like, we don't

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Speaker 1: think D and D is properly capitalized. We we believe

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Speaker 1: that there's we are leaving money on the table here

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Speaker 1: and kind of in the wake of some of that

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Speaker 1: stuff coming out, they announced a series of changes to

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Speaker 1: the Open Gaming License. And if you if you kind

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Speaker 1: of want to take it from here and explain, because

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Speaker 1: I've i've I've I've read and listened to a number

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Speaker 1: of different folks. I'm saying like, well, it's not as

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Speaker 1: bad as people are are fearing, and some folks saying

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Speaker 1: like this would effectively kill a huge chunk of the

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Speaker 1: hobby and a bunch of the companies that have grown

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Speaker 1: up in the wake of the Open Gaming License. And

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm interested in your take on what what Wizards

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Speaker 1: is doing here and what actually kind of is it risk.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I think you you you've plued into the

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Speaker 1: start of this, which was in early December of last year,

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Speaker 1: Hasbro earnings call uh Cynthia basically came out and said

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Speaker 1: D and D was under monetized and they had been

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Speaker 1: spending the entire previous year, really proliferating magic they're gathering,

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Speaker 1: which is their other giant brand and kind of really

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Speaker 1: making a lot of money, like talks of like it

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Speaker 1: is a billion dollar brand and um, as a result,

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Speaker 1: you know, there was kind of some murmurings and some

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Speaker 1: rumblings going through December, um talking about a new version

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Speaker 1: of the O g L. Wizards themselves came out on

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Speaker 1: December twenty one, so just a few days before Christmas,

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Speaker 1: and said that a new O g L was coming

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Speaker 1: and that it had notes in it about royalty reporting

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Speaker 1: and um, you know, mentioning that folks won't need to

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Speaker 1: pay until later um and that um, you know, really

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Speaker 1: this new license is only going to be to make

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Speaker 1: books and PDF. So they said this on December twenty one.

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Speaker 1: And the royalty part of that is was really quite

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Speaker 1: challenging because it said if you make over seven dollars

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Speaker 1: a year, um, you might have to pay a sizeable

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Speaker 1: percentage of your your your gross profit. Like and that's terrifying,

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Speaker 1: which when you're talking about a business and and this

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Speaker 1: is not the gaming industry does not run on huge margins. Um. No,

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Speaker 1: unless you're like making Warhammer models that you're selling for

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Speaker 1: a hundred and twenty dollars for a piece of plastic

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Speaker 1: that's tied. Yeah, the margins are pretty tight. Um. So

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Speaker 1: saying like past, you know, seven K, your company with

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Speaker 1: however many employees, has to give a quarter like that,

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Speaker 1: that'll sink people. Yeah. I think a lot of companies,

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Speaker 1: the larger ones, couldn't sustain that, right. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think saying your gross over seven just basically means make

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Speaker 1: sure you only make seven hundred dollars that year. Um.

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Speaker 1: I I do think that that is that is a real,

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Speaker 1: real dangerous thing to a lot of these businesses. Now,

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Speaker 1: for a lot of the content creators, this is never

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Speaker 1: gonna matter. But I do believe that part of this was,

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Speaker 1: you know, seeing gigantic, multimillion dollar kickstarters happening and kind

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Speaker 1: of going whereas our yeah, we want a piece of this, um.

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Speaker 1: And the answer to that is that, like you know,

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Speaker 1: and it's problematic just crediting the creation of D and

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Speaker 1: D solely to Gary Gygax, but like the people who

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Speaker 1: came up with and play tested and made D and

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Speaker 1: D a thing, and then the people who iterated and

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Speaker 1: changed and evolved it from you know, the original game

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Speaker 1: to a D and d um and the years of

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Speaker 1: FACCO to to three point oh, like like morally outside

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Speaker 1: of like what I think is justifiable in corporate law

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Speaker 1: and stuff like, morally, I think it's fucked up to

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Speaker 1: say that like some company forever gets a piece of

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Speaker 1: that when what it is is like human beings coming

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Speaker 1: together to try to figure out the most efficient way

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Speaker 1: to run an engine for storytelling. Um, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's fucked up to me to think

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Speaker 1: about it this way. So they announced this alteration to

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Speaker 1: the Open Gaming License and I'm going to guess those

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Speaker 1: were some dark days at at the s O offices.

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Speaker 1: So so yeah, you know, uh, most of us at

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Speaker 1: PISO at that point in time, we're kind of on

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Speaker 1: vacation and we kind of just filed it away and

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Speaker 1: we're like, okay, well it's a draft and they're just talking.

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Speaker 1: So um, you know, we get to back, you know,

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Speaker 1: from our break and it's the beginning of the year

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Speaker 1: and this is now January five is when a bombshell

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Speaker 1: article drops on Gizmoto by CODEGA and they really laid

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Speaker 1: out kind of what was in this proposed license, apparently

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Speaker 1: having had portions of it linked to them, and um,

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Speaker 1: you know it confirmed a margin, but maybe only for

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Speaker 1: for kickstarters, which then got confer earned by someone at

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Speaker 1: kickstarter on Twitter. Um and it also included a bit

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Speaker 1: in there that there was a clause that said watsy

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Speaker 1: could listen to the coast could use any of the

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Speaker 1: content you create under the license for free, never having

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Speaker 1: to make pay royalties to you, never having to give

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Speaker 1: you any credit. They could just take your work. Um

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Speaker 1: And and they phrased it in such a way that

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Speaker 1: it sounded like it was, you know, well, just in

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Speaker 1: case we make something similar, we don't want to get sued.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, and we're talking about just to clarify it

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Speaker 1: for people. We're not talking about like if you introduce mechanics,

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Speaker 1: because again that that's not what this is covered. We're

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Speaker 1: talking about if you create characters, if you create if

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Speaker 1: you build stories, they have a right to utilize that

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Speaker 1: story that you've made things that are actually copyrightable, right, Stories,

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Speaker 1: ideas and expressions are copyrightable. Um uh, you know, but

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Speaker 1: rules aren't. So that that drops on the fifth and

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Speaker 1: on the night the full draft document leaks and you've

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Speaker 1: got streamers and influencers reading it live on YouTube, and

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Speaker 1: this thing just starts to snowball. Um and from the

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Speaker 1: ninth forward things start moving very quickly. Um. On the tenth,

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Speaker 1: a number of major kind of third party publishers, these

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Speaker 1: are folks who print with the O jail announced that

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Speaker 1: they were not going to go with that, and one

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Speaker 1: of the largest ones, you know, announced, yeah, I'm not

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Speaker 1: doing that at all. I'm going to create my entire

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Speaker 1: brand new game. I'm leaving all of this behind. And

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Speaker 1: the further on social media turned into basically a firestorm.

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Speaker 1: Um it It's real sign of how how much more

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Speaker 1: how many people both love and play versions of this

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Speaker 1: game that there was so much media attention from like

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Speaker 1: major media organs like this. This was not just you know,

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Speaker 1: those of us who are into gaming, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: freaking out over this change the Wizards of the Coast

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Speaker 1: has made. This was like, I mean, I was seeing

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Speaker 1: it everywhere. Very few things have like broken as widely

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Speaker 1: in my media in ecosystem as as this. There was

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Speaker 1: an article, there was a story about it today on NPR. UM,

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Speaker 1: so there was another one. There was one other important

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Speaker 1: aspect in the league, um that I think is really important.

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Speaker 1: One is that the new o g L could be

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Speaker 1: canceled at any time with thirty days notice. And they

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Speaker 1: were climbing that they were de authorizing the previous o

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Speaker 1: g L, which up to this point everyone kind of

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Speaker 1: assumed was irrevocable, right it had. It has clauses in

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Speaker 1: it that say, if we ever put on a new

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Speaker 1: version of this license, you can ignore it and continue

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Speaker 1: to use this one. Right, but it uses this word

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Speaker 1: in there that says you can continue to use any

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Speaker 1: authorized version of the license, never minding that the contract

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Speaker 1: doesn't mention how you might d authorize a license. Um.

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Speaker 1: So there there this draft of the o g L

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Speaker 1: says that they're de authorizing the previous version, which puts

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Speaker 1: all of the work of the past twenty years into doubt.

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Speaker 1: And at this point in time, the fans are revolting

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Speaker 1: right there. There are a lot of folks canceling their

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Speaker 1: subscriptions to D and D Beyond, which is kind of

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Speaker 1: there in house character generation tools that you pay a

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Speaker 1: monthly subscription for. Um. And things really start spinning out

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Speaker 1: of hand to the point where D and D actually

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Speaker 1: has to respond to it and pulled back UM and

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Speaker 1: kind of retreat from this and saying Hey, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: answer your questions. What you saw was just a draft um,

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Speaker 1: you know, and uh that was never supposed to leak um.

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Speaker 1: But it was at this point in time that we

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Speaker 1: actually launched our own license. We had been talking to

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Speaker 1: some of the other publishers and by that, I mean

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Speaker 1: we pizo uh to create a brand new safe harbor

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Speaker 1: for folks to publish on. Or now it's a it's

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Speaker 1: a it's not gonna be owned by us, It's going

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Speaker 1: to be owned by a law firm that actually drafted

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Speaker 1: the first o g L. But you started to see

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Speaker 1: this giant fork happening um where a lot of folks

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Speaker 1: are just abandoning ship. And I mean, what do you

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Speaker 1: think this means? Because obviously Wizards has already announced a

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Speaker 1: new version of the of the o g L beyond

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Speaker 1: like the one that got leaked, and I think are

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Speaker 1: kind of in damage control mode. Do you think this

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Speaker 1: is something that like there is any way for them

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Speaker 1: to pull back from or do you think that kind

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Speaker 1: of the inherent instability of the o g L now

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Speaker 1: that they're kind of making these claims at while we

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Speaker 1: can actually change the deal anytime we want, has that

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Speaker 1: sort of irreficably altered the ground. I think that they've

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Speaker 1: damaged a lot of people's trust in them, right, I

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Speaker 1: think over over the past few weeks, especially when they

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Speaker 1: went silent and then frankly the first retraction was really

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Speaker 1: kind of awkward and filled with kind of like, well,

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Speaker 1: we didn't lose, we won. This was great. Now we

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00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,159
Speaker 1: learned how to make a better license. Right, they're clearly

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Speaker 1: stepping back, stepping back, stepping back, And their most recent

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Speaker 1: step back, which just happened, you know, on the eighteenth,

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Speaker 1: so you know, a week ago or so, basically said

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Speaker 1: that they were going to release the core of the

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Speaker 1: game to Creative Commons and their new license was going

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Speaker 1: to be irrevocable and last forever. But it still contains

389
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,960
Speaker 1: a lot of kind of poison pills, things like we

390
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,200
Speaker 1: are still the authorizing the first version of the license,

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Speaker 1: and we have this morality clause that says if we

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Speaker 1: find your content offensive, we can just kill your license

393
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Speaker 1: without Yeah, which is fucked up, because I mean, I

394
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Speaker 1: don't think I need to explain why that's fucked up. Um,

395
00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 1: that that puts that puts a lot of the most

396
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Speaker 1: creative kind of projects to at risk, Like that I God,

397
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Speaker 1: that's that's ugly. I mean, I don't think anybody in

398
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Speaker 1: this industry wants to see any deeply offensive, problematic content. Um,

399
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 1: But there's a lot of stuff that is, frankly, a

400
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,399
Speaker 1: lot more marginal and explorer, you know, issues of the

401
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,920
Speaker 1: human condition that folks might want to explore in a game.

402
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Speaker 1: And who's to say that someone at Wizards might go, well, sorry,

403
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Speaker 1: that's offensive to me. You don't get to make it. Um.

404
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody wants to invest their creativity and

405
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Speaker 1: risk their business on what someone they will never have

406
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:30,159
Speaker 1: met thinks of their work. Yeah. The problem is not that,

407
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Speaker 1: like I want as the most defensive role playing games

408
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:35,120
Speaker 1: I can get. The problem is like, well, who determines

409
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Speaker 1: what offensive is? And it's a bunch of lawyers in

410
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Speaker 1: business minute Wizards of the Coast. At least that's the worry, right,

411
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Speaker 1: Like not necessarily that that's how it would work out,

412
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Speaker 1: but you just you get no guarantee. And this stuff,

413
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,439
Speaker 1: this stuff evolves over time, right, you know what what

414
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,520
Speaker 1: is fine today maybe problematic tomorrow. We learned those things

415
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 1: and we evolved from them and we change. But I

416
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Speaker 1: don't think anybody wants to have kind of the this

417
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Speaker 1: you know, acts hanging over our head of like, well, sorry,

418
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Speaker 1: that's now offensive, So we're going to kill the entire license. Yeah,

419
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,439
Speaker 1: so where are we? Where are we now? Like it

420
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 1: looks like Piezo Yawler are moving forward with the O

421
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Speaker 1: r C along with a number of other people. Can

422
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Speaker 1: you give me any of what that's going to look like?

423
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Speaker 1: Because one of the things that that does concern me

424
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Speaker 1: is um and this is a very selfish concern, but

425
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Speaker 1: like I grew very comfortable with, you know, three point five,

426
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Speaker 1: which is essentially the machinery that underpins Pathfinder and UM

427
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Speaker 1: It's one of those things like if I didn't play

428
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 1: again for twenty years, I could probably sit down with

429
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Speaker 1: the material in my head and run a campaign just

430
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Speaker 1: because so much of that stuff is burned into my brain.

431
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 1: Are we like, what is the mechanics kind of underlying

432
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 1: the O r C and how is it going to

433
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 1: be different from what we've we've gotten used to. So

434
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,360
Speaker 1: I'll say this, We're we're in the very early days, yes,

435
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,159
Speaker 1: And what what's happening right now is we are you know,

436
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: in coordination with a number of other publishers working with

437
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: a Zoro law and are the people who wrote the

438
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,399
Speaker 1: original o g l uh and had, you know, fully

439
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,920
Speaker 1: intended for it to be a perpetual license, and we're

440
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,360
Speaker 1: working with them to to create kind of a rules

441
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:15,199
Speaker 1: neutral license that the entire game industry can use to

442
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 1: share work, because there's there's like a lot of nuance

443
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,880
Speaker 1: that was in the o g l that allowed different

444
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,399
Speaker 1: companies to share creative work together, and a lot of

445
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 1: companies used it as kind of a bridging license, even

446
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 1: if they weren't using Dungeons and Dragons at all, they

447
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 1: would just use the license as a framework to kind

448
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,639
Speaker 1: of exchange ideas. And that's what we want the ORC

449
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 1: to be. The ORC needs to be a license that

450
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 1: allows everybody in the game industry to open up their

451
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 1: content and share work with each other and iterate and

452
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,679
Speaker 1: expand and grow. That's our real goal, um And ultimately

453
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 1: we are not going to own it. No one's going

454
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 1: to own it. We're actually going to try and find

455
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,159
Speaker 1: it onprofit to administer the license going forward so that

456
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 1: we don't ever have to worry about this again. Nobody

457
00:24:58,080 --> 00:24:59,919
Speaker 1: wants to go through what we've been going through for

458
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,680
Speaker 1: the past three weeks, so that's kind of that's kind

459
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 1: of one half of it. The other half is what

460
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,439
Speaker 1: happens to Pathfinder UM. And obviously, you know, when it

461
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 1: came to path Finder second Edition, we rewrote the game

462
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 1: from scratch and it is now fully our game. It's

463
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,880
Speaker 1: something we own and we control UM. So we feel

464
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 1: pretty confident that we're just going to keep on rolling

465
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,880
Speaker 1: with with Pathfinder. And ultimately, you know, we don't actually

466
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 1: believe that the previous version of the O g l

467
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 1: even can be rescinded, So I guess we'll see how

468
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,920
Speaker 1: that plays out. I can see this having an overall

469
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:41,639
Speaker 1: positive outcome, just in that if we get this new

470
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 1: kind of thing that creators can use UM as a

471
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 1: as a core point to branch off from when they

472
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 1: are when they're making games that's actually under solid legal

473
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: footing that isn't kind of reliant upon the whims of

474
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: a publicly traded company, then in the long term, you know,

475
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 1: that is in the long term, it's it's it's it's

476
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: better for creators because it's more like the way things

477
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 1: were for the first twenty years of the O g

478
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 1: l UM. Do you I mean, like, what do you

479
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 1: see as kind of some pitfalls and sort of trying

480
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 1: to trying to make this this happened, trying to move

481
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: things in this kind of more productive direction. Well, I

482
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 1: think you can always you know, kind of fracture, you know,

483
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 1: balkanize the market to the point where where everybody has

484
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 1: such a small slice event that you know, no one

485
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,679
Speaker 1: can really get the kind of numbers they need to

486
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 1: succeed because you're You're right, it is. It is a

487
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 1: pretty small industry. The margin on you know, printed media

488
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 1: isn't exactly great. But I think a lot of these

489
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: companies do have the numbers to survive. But I think

490
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: that right now everybody's trying to figure out how to

491
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 1: replace parts of what has just been lost. Um. Everybody's

492
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 1: trying to kind of go in their different directions right now.

493
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: And some of that is going to be really good,

494
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,160
Speaker 1: because I think we're gonna get a lot of really

495
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 1: great games, um, and I'm excited to see him, um.

496
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,679
Speaker 1: But I do think that I think one of the

497
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: worries just for the industry is that they kind of

498
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 1: all had one flag they were rallying around, and now

499
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 1: everyone's running in different directions and hoping that after all

500
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 1: of this shakes out, everybody has kind of enough gamers

501
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: to support a community. I think it's gonna work out.

502
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 1: I think that there's a number of standouts happening already.

503
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: Um you know, M C, d M and Cobald are

504
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: obviously racing to do things. There's a bunch of kind

505
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: of known players in the industry, US, Cobalt, Chaos, Um, Green, Ronan,

506
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: all of them are pretty big companies position to kind

507
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,400
Speaker 1: of have good player bases with great games and mechanics

508
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 1: underneath them. So I I think the big loser here

509
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: is frankly, of the coast. They you know, up up

510
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 1: until you know, the end of this year or the

511
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 1: end of last year, they were undisputedly the largest game

512
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 1: company in the entire table top role playing game industry,

513
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 1: and that's still true today. But there's a lot of

514
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 1: cracks in that armor, and it does make me wonder

515
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 1: how it's going to fracture out over time, and how

516
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 1: many of their fans, many of which never heard of Pathfinder,

517
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: never heard of you know, these other game companies call

518
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: of Cthulo and stuff, are now suddenly exploring these games.

519
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,360
Speaker 1: And you know, frankly, the wealth of smaller Indian zin

520
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 1: games that are out there, there's so much to play

521
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: right now, and watsy has just told their fan base, hey,

522
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 1: go check it out. It's interesting because it it kind

523
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 1: of speaks to something that I've I've always loved and

524
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 1: also found kind of sociologically fascinating about table top gaming,

525
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 1: which is you just brought up call Off Cthulhu, which

526
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 1: is a game that is I don't believe is under

527
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: the control of the original company that it was made under.

528
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: People have been playing versions of Calliff Cthuloo for a

529
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 1: very long time. Jngeans and Dragons has gone through multiple owners.

530
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: Shadow Run, which I played a lot of as a kid,

531
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: has gone through multiple owners, and the rules sets change

532
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: in the company that is profit from the official licensed

533
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 1: material changes. But no matter what happens, even when those

534
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 1: companies go wonder the games keep going. And that's there's

535
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 1: something I think unique there that is, it's not the

536
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 1: case even like um, you know, there's versions of it

537
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 1: that happens in in PC gaming. But there's also this

538
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: thing that happens that that a lot of gamers I

539
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,959
Speaker 1: know complain about, which is that like periodically, shit will

540
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: get removed for whatever reason a company goes under a

541
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: game is not supported and that game is just gone.

542
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 1: That little piece of culture has just gone. And it

543
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: seems like so far. I'm not gonna say in every case,

544
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 1: because obviously there have been games that have have you know,

545
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: people stopped playing and stuff in the tabletop space, but

546
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: it's there's this continuity, you know, even in the face

547
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: of of changing of the guards in terms of like

548
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 1: what companies are successful, um of like people keep playing

549
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 1: these the same games and iterating them and changing them,

550
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 1: and um, I don't know. That's that always one of

551
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: the things I found most inspiring about the way tabletop works. Yeah,

552
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I do think the legacy of tabletop role

553
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: playing games is one of cooperation. It was there from

554
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: the start, right, you know, the moment Gary and is

555
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: Uh and Dave and folks you know got together and

556
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: started turning their you know, miniatures war game and giving

557
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: characters to them, and everyone started building a story together.

558
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: That spark was the start, and it's carried through in

559
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 1: a million different ways and a million different tables. And

560
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: even if you know, the companies go under or disappear,

561
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: people with those books are still playing those games. There's

562
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 1: plenty of people still playing a D and D first edition, right,

563
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: you know they never left and they're fine with that,

564
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: and and I salute them. Yeah, I think about and again,

565
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: this is like one of the reasons this has such

566
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: a place in my heart. I I started playing a

567
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: D and D. But you know, it was my friends

568
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: and I would play at a at cub Scout camp outs,

569
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 1: and we didn't have acts us two dice, so we

570
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 1: we had the rule books. We had like the Monster's

571
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: Manual in the Player's Guide, and we use those as

572
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: jumping off points, and we would bring like a bunch

573
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 1: of nickels and we would we would figure out way

574
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: it's like, okay, for this action, you've gotta get three

575
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 1: heads out of five flips or something like that, and

576
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: that's a success in this And like so many people

577
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: have stories like that, have variants of that, because it

578
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 1: really is fundamentally what you need for any of these games,

579
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: which is what makes them so durable, is a group

580
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: of people to want to sit around a table and

581
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: tell a story together, which is rad. Yeah, I mean

582
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: there's nothing else like it, right there, really isn't it.

583
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: And that's why I think you're seeing so much fervor

584
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: over this because for a lot of people, this is

585
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: very deeply personal gathering together with your friends and telling

586
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: a story together. That's something you and your friends built.

587
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: And you know, uh, if you happen to find a

588
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: way to make some money off of it, great, that's

589
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: that's your creativity coming to life. And frankly, kind of

590
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 1: having a big giant corporation come in and say, hey,

591
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 1: where's my cut is not really very fun. No, uh,

592
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: And I my heart goes out to to to you

593
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: and your colleagues over how stressful this last three or

594
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 1: four weeks has been. And I hope that we're past

595
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: the worst of it. Um. It certainly seems like some

596
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: what's going to come out of this is going to

597
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: be pretty exciting, So I'm hopeful. Uh, And it sounds

598
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: like you're hopeful. Yeah, I think you know. Over the

599
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 1: past couple of weeks there's been a lot of sleepless

600
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: nights and a lot of egency meetings. But frankly, I

601
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: feel more excited and energized about the future of Pizo,

602
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: about the future of gaming, than I have in quite

603
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: a long time. So by Piso's games, pick up some

604
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: Pathfinder books, go to your go to your nearest game store, um,

605
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,479
Speaker 1: and and pick one up or two or three, Um, Jason,

606
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: anything else you want up plug at the end here. Uh. Yeah,

607
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: you can learn more about Pieso in our games, so

608
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: that would be Pathfinder and star Finder Ato dot com.

609
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: We have a blog they're talking about the Orc and

610
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: we'll undoubtedly have more to say about it here in

611
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 1: the coming weeks. Uh. As for me, you can find

612
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: me on all the very social media platforms at backslash

613
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: Jason Bowman bu well m A h N. Thank you Jason,

614
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: both for sitting down for this interview and for all

615
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: of all of the many, many countless hours I have

616
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: spent playing games that you had a hand in making.

617
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: Thank you. Robert. We'll have to get together and roll

618
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 1: some dice together soon. I would love that. All right, everybody,

619
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: that's a sod uh see you tomorrow, Hi, and welcome

620
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: to it could happen here a podcast which today is

621
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 1: only me and my guest Nicole, and today we're gonna

622
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 1: be talking a little bit about immigration, about immigration policy

623
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: over the last three or four years, and about some

624
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 1: of the strange laws that impacted. So Nicole is joining me.

625
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 1: She works for Alotto Lado, and Nicole would likely tochose

626
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 1: herself explain a little bit about what you do. Hi,

627
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 1: my name is Nicole Elizabeth Ramos and I am the

628
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 1: director of Alto Lavos Order Rights Project, which is based

629
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 1: in Tijuana, Mexico. Great, okay, So I think prehaps to

630
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 1: start off with you could clear people in on a

631
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: little bit of what you guys do, because you do

632
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 1: some incredible work and it's very, very valuable to board

633
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: the communities, and I think a lot of people, if

634
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: they don't live in along the boarder, might not be

635
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 1: familiar with it. At Lado, we provide legal orientation to

636
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: migrants that are considering seeking asylum in the US. We

637
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 1: started off as a project that focused locally on migrants

638
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 1: in Tijuana, and over the years we have expanded to

639
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 1: serve migrants in Mexicali and then remotely in other cities

640
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 1: along the US Mexico border, including Grenosa, Matamoro, Squads, pieg

641
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: Uh And in this legal orientation, we're providing information about

642
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 1: what are the current policies at the moment that will

643
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: impact their ability to seek asylum in the US or

644
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 1: prevent them from doing so, or how these policies might

645
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:26,800
Speaker 1: be impacting their family composition. So policies that are related

646
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 1: to detention or family separation. After we provide legal orientation,

647
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: we are then identifying asylum seekers that fall into several

648
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 1: vulnerability categories to provide additional accompaniment through this process. Because

649
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 1: the policies are shifting and changing and becoming more restrictive

650
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 1: over time, it's very confusing and cumbersome to we throw

651
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 1: all of the fuzz and figure out what you need

652
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 1: to do in order to seek asylum in the US.

653
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: So that's where we come in and we provide the

654
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:05,720
Speaker 1: orientation in multiple languages. The border is a very diverse place.

655
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,320
Speaker 1: Is not just Spanish speakers that are coming, but people

656
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 1: that speak Ation, Creole, French, Farsi, indigenous languages, Russian, Ukrainian, Turkish,

657
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: um and all of these people need access to information.

658
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: That's one of the pillars of our program is that

659
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 1: migrants have the absolute right to accurate legal information about

660
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 1: the process that they will be entering. Among the asylum

661
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: teachers that we work with, we also identify those that

662
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 1: our need of shelter and make referrals and coroplated shelters

663
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 1: for medical care. In some instances, we assist with obtaining

664
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 1: medications or obtaining a needed surgery. If the migrant is

665
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:52,240
Speaker 1: not have access to those resources helping them obtain access

666
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: to HIV medication or hormone treatment. And of those migrants,

667
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 1: we are also connecting them with other supportive services from

668
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 1: our partners UM that have shelters, that have programs where

669
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: they're giving them basic dispenses of food because they are

670
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 1: struggling with food and security, trying to create as much

671
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 1: of a social safety net as possible because UH folks

672
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,240
Speaker 1: are waiting at the border for longer and longer periods

673
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: of time. The border used to be a place that

674
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: people passed through, maybe they were here for a few

675
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 1: days before ultimately they were able to present them at

676
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 1: a present themselves at a US port of entry UM

677
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,280
Speaker 1: to a US official and enter the asylum process. However,

678
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 1: now we have individuals that have been waiting at the

679
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 1: border for years, who may not have work status in Mexico,

680
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 1: may not be Spanish speakers, and are really struggling to

681
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 1: meet their basic needs. And so we've had to expand

682
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 1: our services from not just legal service provider, provider of

683
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 1: legal information, but also providing humanitarian aid so that people

684
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 1: can be healthy and as well as possible UM while

685
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 1: they're waiting yeah, and it's it's incredibly valuable, and it's

686
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: it's amazing how you guys can continue to step up

687
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 1: and scale up as the federal government has continued to

688
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 1: fail people. Um. And I think if people haven't come

689
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 1: to the border, they probably won't be aware of, like

690
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: you say, that diversity of people who come to the

691
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 1: US Mexico boarder. Like I remember a couple of years ago,

692
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 1: I was working within a Romo translator and we were

693
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 1: speaking to people who would come from Ethiopia, people come

694
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 1: from Eritrea. It's a it's a very of course, people

695
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 1: coming from Ukraine. Now, it's very diverse space, which is

696
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 1: something that kind of gets collapsed pretty often in border reporting.

697
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:45,800
Speaker 1: I think like all that diversity gets collapsed into like

698
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 1: like just people are lump together as migrants for people

699
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 1: seeking asylum. And that's a shame because it's what makes

700
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: part of what makes us so complicated, but also what

701
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 1: makes these border places such kind of interesting and special places.

702
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 1: And and I like what you said about all the

703
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,320
Speaker 1: sort of services that are provided as well. It's incredible

704
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: to look at how these services are provided by huge

705
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:14,320
Speaker 1: broad network of like volunteers of nonprofit of of NGOs

706
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 1: as well as some government agencies, and how people have

707
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 1: stepped up consistently, especially in the last I guess six seven.

708
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 1: It did seem such a long time. It's just like

709
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 1: how people have stepped up to help each other along

710
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: the border. So perhaps if we go back, you and

711
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 1: I we're just talking before we started. If we go

712
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 1: back to eighteen, which people may or may not remember,

713
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 1: was the mid term, in the middle of Donald Trump's presidency,

714
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 1: and a large caravan of people, a group of people

715
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,760
Speaker 1: that particularly larger, remarkable eardy, a group of people arrived

716
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 1: at the border and became kind of the center of

717
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 1: something of like a and they became I think their

718
00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 1: their arrival was used by both political parties part of

719
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 1: this at midterm messaging, and and I think that was

720
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:06,800
Speaker 1: maybe for some people, especially if if they're younger and

721
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:08,840
Speaker 1: had been watching their news, the sort of first introduction

722
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,800
Speaker 1: to the asylum process. So can you explain kind of

723
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 1: how asylum is supposed to happen, and then maybe we

724
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 1: can get into some of the weird and bizarre things

725
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:21,399
Speaker 1: that have been happening to it in the past three

726
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:26,280
Speaker 1: or four years. Asylum is supposed to be a system

727
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 1: that's managed first by by government authorities UM under Title eight,

728
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: section twelve five of the United States Code, US immigration

729
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 1: officer at port of entry UM or at any point

730
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 1: in between ports of entries such as border patrol, when

731
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 1: they are presented with a person that expresses that they

732
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 1: have a fear of return to their home country, that

733
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 1: they fear of persecution, to refer them along the track

734
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:58,879
Speaker 1: to be processed as an asylum seeker. Now, that can

735
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 1: mean that that person is still detained for the entirety

736
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: of their asylum case and sent to an immigration detention center.

737
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 1: That could also mean that that person is given court

738
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,919
Speaker 1: paperwork to show up an immigration court at a later

739
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 1: date to begin the process of explaining their case to

740
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 1: the immigration court and getting a final decision UM. Over

741
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 1: the years, beginning at the end of the Obama administration,

742
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 1: continuing through the Trump administration, and also continuing even now

743
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:35,359
Speaker 1: into the Biden administration, we have seen policies issued by

744
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: CDP which restrict access to the port of entry for

745
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:46,720
Speaker 1: asilent seekers UM. Initially, it started out in two thousand

746
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: and sixteen, where the Obama administration came up with a

747
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 1: policy called the Metering Policy, which was known as the waitlist,

748
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 1: which required at first only Haitian asylum seekers to put

749
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,319
Speaker 1: their name on a wait list with Mexican immigration authorities

750
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 1: and then they would be called in groups um to

751
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 1: enter the US. And that was in response to the

752
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:12,320
Speaker 1: exodus of immigrants that we saw coming from Haiti and

753
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 1: through Brazil in two thousand and sixteen. The metering list

754
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 1: was later expanded to apply to all nationalities, including Mexican

755
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 1: migrants that were trying to flee their own country, including

756
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 1: those that had legitimate claims for protection being persecuted by

757
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 1: members of their own government. Everyone had to still get

758
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:38,760
Speaker 1: on this list. That policy was extended in an ideological

759
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,240
Speaker 1: framework when the Trump administration came up with a program

760
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 1: known as Remain in Mexico and just building upon that

761
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 1: idea that it is okay to make asylum seekers wait

762
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 1: in territory in which they fear persecution because a lot

763
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 1: of people here persecution in Mexico UM, and under the

764
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: Remain in Mexico policy so known as the Migrant Protection

765
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 1: Protocols m p P. They we always refer to it

766
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 1: as the Migrant Persecution Protocols because it feels it's extremely

767
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 1: all WELLI in right, like people like to use a

768
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 1: welly and wrong, but that that one that went prett. Yeah,

769
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 1: this program required asylum seekers that were entered. They were

770
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: placed into a program called MPP. They were given court

771
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 1: date and people were to appear at court in their

772
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 1: nearest border city where there was an immigration court at

773
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 1: some date in the future. It could be a few weeks,

774
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 1: it could be several months, it could be a year.

775
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:40,280
Speaker 1: And in between their court hearings, they would be required

776
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 1: to remain in Mexico. They could only go to the

777
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 1: court of entry on their date of their court They

778
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 1: would be transported to court and then transported back to

779
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 1: Mexico after their court, leaving Mexico people in Mexico in

780
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 1: limbo for years. And then when the pandemic came, we

781
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: saw the border closed entirely. Under title for you to

782
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: the Trump administration build it as necessary to protect the

783
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:10,720
Speaker 1: American public from migrants that could be carriers of COVID nineteen.

784
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 1: But this is really, you know, no different than other

785
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: immigration legislation that we've seen throughout history, which tends to

786
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 1: paint immigrants as vectors of disease um and we need

787
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:26,839
Speaker 1: to just keep them out at all costs. And under

788
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,280
Speaker 1: Title for you to it's just a wall of policy.

789
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,359
Speaker 1: People tried to present themselves at the port of entry

790
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 1: and they're turned away. People enter the US UH at

791
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 1: different points that are not parts of entry without inspection

792
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:46,720
Speaker 1: UM and get caught and they're expelled immediately back to Mexico,

793
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 1: or if it's not a country that Mexico will accept

794
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 1: an expulsion, they could be detained in US custody and

795
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 1: then expelled back to their country of origin without any

796
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:03,879
Speaker 1: opportunity to week with an asylum officer UM. Right now,

797
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,840
Speaker 1: we have been dealing with title for you two in

798
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:12,399
Speaker 1: a process where certain number of people are exempted from

799
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 1: this blanket denial every day UH and different ports of

800
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:22,239
Speaker 1: entry along the border participate. Each part of entry has

801
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 1: its own cap numerical cap UM. And initially, when this

802
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 1: program started in May, the names of people that were

803
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 1: being submitted as exemptions, the asylum seekers names were submitted

804
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:41,720
Speaker 1: by civil society organizations such as Ladoulo. Just this year alone,

805
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 1: we've submitted around eleven thousand, five hundred I'm sorry, eleven

806
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 1: exemption requests UM, and that was from individuals from twenty

807
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 1: nine different countries speaking just over thirty different languages. So

808
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:02,360
Speaker 1: now though, the system has recently changed to a smartphone

809
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 1: application known as c DP one, which requires migrants to

810
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 1: download this application to their smartphone, assuming that they have

811
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 1: a smartphone, and then complete this lengthy application UM that

812
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 1: requires them to upload a photo UM for facial recognition

813
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 1: software and wait for an appointment date to be made available.

814
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 1: And they have to keep entering the fifth multiple times

815
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,359
Speaker 1: and until an appointment date becomes available, waking up every

816
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 1: morning at five thirty for when the new slots are

817
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:41,879
Speaker 1: made available at six am. And the problem, among many

818
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 1: problems with this application is that right now it's only

819
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 1: available in Spanish and English, so if you speak any

820
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 1: other language, are not able to access it UM And

821
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 1: we have to give you an example. UM. We have

822
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 1: an online survey where people register or try I to

823
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 1: seek help from us. We have over since April one,

824
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:09,320
Speaker 1: over fifteen thousand unique fifty unique responses. Around half of

825
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:14,280
Speaker 1: those are from Haitian creole speakers cannot access this app

826
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 1: to get an appointment. The other issue is is that

827
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 1: the facial recognition software that's integrated into the cd P

828
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,240
Speaker 1: one app. You know, there's a lot of studies throughout

829
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 1: the years about how this software will lead to false

830
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 1: positives or failure to recognize for individuals that have um

831
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 1: Afro descendant features or individuals that have more indigenous features.

832
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:44,359
Speaker 1: And we have seen this firsthand. So many of our

833
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 1: Haitian clients are unable to even complete the profile and

834
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:53,760
Speaker 1: they are taking photos with cameras that have a decent,

835
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:57,959
Speaker 1: you know, lens capacity, and they still can't get past

836
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:02,800
Speaker 1: the facial recognition software. Yeah. It's just like a layers

837
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 1: on layers of sort of you know, sometimes it's just

838
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 1: them being like ineffective. Sometimes it just seems cruel. Let's

839
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 1: go back a little bit to title forty two, because

840
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:15,800
Speaker 1: that word has been thrown around a lot, right, Title

841
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 1: thirty two isn't initially it's not immigration law, is it.

842
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 1: It's it's public health law. Is that right? I guess

843
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: it's it's public it's a public health policy that's part

844
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 1: of immigration law. Yes, it's public health policy that's being

845
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 1: applied in the immigration contacts to close the border. Yeah.

846
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 1: And then one thing that I think we've seen a

847
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 1: lot recently is like one of the worst accounts on Twitter,

848
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 1: which is the Border Patrol Union, likes to they do

849
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 1: occasionally like tweet their own losses, which is kind of funny,

850
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 1: but they like to throw out these statistics right constantly

851
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 1: about encounters at the border. Can you explain how under

852
00:48:54,880 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 1: title forty two, each encounter might not be a unique individual. Yeah. Absolutely,

853
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 1: those individuals are overcounted because people will make multiple attempts

854
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 1: to try to enter the US because they're so desperate.

855
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 1: It's a dystopian healthscape on this side of the border,

856
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 1: with people being trafficked, kidnapped for extortion, tortured, raped, murdered,

857
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 1: sold uh. And so if that were any reasonable person,

858
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 1: you would try tan fifteen times whatever it took to

859
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:34,800
Speaker 1: get across to safety. And the Border Patrol Union is

860
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 1: disingenuous because it knows this, and instead it pulls out

861
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:42,840
Speaker 1: a figure that is much larger than what it represents

862
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 1: in actual people. And they're disingenuous and how they describe it, Yeah, yeah,

863
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 1: I think it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see

864
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 1: through it. And of course, when we combine this with

865
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 1: the the wall or the fence or whatever you want

866
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:58,880
Speaker 1: to call it, people are crossing in more remote and

867
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 1: more dangerous areas to makes the crossing more risky, right,

868
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:05,880
Speaker 1: and results in hirings in two people dying, hiding themselves

869
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 1: trying to cross, which, as you say, it's it's not

870
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:11,359
Speaker 1: a reasonable thing to do when you're faced with these

871
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 1: terrible circumstances. Yeah, there's a beautiful poem called Home by

872
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:21,320
Speaker 1: Warsha Sire who's a Somali British poet, and one of

873
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 1: the lines is you don't put your child in a

874
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:27,279
Speaker 1: in a boat unless it's safer than the land. No

875
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 1: one would attempt to cross a thirty football or wade

876
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 1: the Rio Grand or across the Arizona desert in the

877
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:39,319
Speaker 1: middle of summer unless what was behind them they were

878
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 1: so sure was going to kill them. And the way

879
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 1: that we've structured the wall and raising the height of

880
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 1: the wall to make it harder to cross, and to

881
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 1: build as much wall along the places where it would

882
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 1: be a little bit easier to cross, the people making

883
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 1: it so the only way to cross is through the

884
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 1: most dangerous parts. That that's intentional, that is, you know,

885
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 1: designed for people to die, because the government mistakenly believes

886
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 1: that if it kills more people that folks will be deterred.

887
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:19,440
Speaker 1: But that's um not actually what we see on the ground. No,

888
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 1: like it's not a vacuum, right, people are coming from

889
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:25,400
Speaker 1: bad things like making just making the board a difficult

890
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:27,600
Speaker 1: one will do nothing more than kill more people, which

891
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 1: is what they've succeeded in doing, sadly, and so and

892
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 1: then another thing I wanted to get it as Title

893
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:35,800
Speaker 1: forty two with this this crazy series of court cases

894
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 1: around Title forty two, right, so can you explain, like

895
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 1: why Titled forty two hasn't been repealed when we've done

896
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:46,239
Speaker 1: away with almost every other protection for people in kind

897
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 1: of an ongoing pandemic. Title forty two could be repealed

898
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: if the government was so not so intent on fighting

899
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:58,880
Speaker 1: the repeal of Title forty two. The A C. L

900
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 1: U as been import for the last few years around

901
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 1: Title for You to um in a case called we

902
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 1: Sha we shah be my workis, and the judge in

903
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 1: that case issued a decision in December ruling that turning

904
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,400
Speaker 1: away asylum seekers using Title for You two as a

905
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:24,880
Speaker 1: pretext um to turn asylum seekers away was unlawful. However,

906
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 1: that decision was stayed. The government requested that the decision

907
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:34,879
Speaker 1: be uh temporarily stayed to give it time to make

908
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:37,920
Speaker 1: operational plans. The A C. L You did not oppose

909
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 1: that stay and as a result. During that time, a

910
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:46,839
Speaker 1: group of conservative states filed intervening litigation UM to make

911
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 1: their arguments about how their interests were harmed by the decision.

912
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:55,840
Speaker 1: And so now that cases before the Supreme Court and

913
00:52:56,440 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 1: they will not hear the case until February, and we

914
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:04,799
Speaker 1: could be waiting as long as June for a decision. Yeah,

915
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 1: many of those lots of those states weren't even along

916
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 1: the border, right, that's some of the ones who sued. Yeah,

917
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:16,680
Speaker 1: that's still a mystery to all of us along the border.

918
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:22,040
Speaker 1: How interior states that sure might be receiving people coming

919
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 1: from the border, but UM don't have that close nexus.

920
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 1: Is in there are border community and they're being immediately impacted.

921
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:36,360
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, pretty pretty female stuff. And the other issue

922
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 1: I want to raise for people is the narrative is

923
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 1: that we're in a crisis. The border is in a crisis.

924
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 1: There's so many people, we can't possibly help them all.

925
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 1: We close the border for over two years, so of

926
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,279
Speaker 1: course there's going to be more people because we've made

927
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 1: it impossible for people to access. However, the sports of

928
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:04,880
Speaker 1: and Tree have contingency plans for mass migration events. This

929
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 1: is something that UM was learned during the context of

930
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:12,719
Speaker 1: our litigation UM against c VP around access to the

931
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 1: board of entry, and we see that the government is

932
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 1: capable of responding rapidly in a manner that is consistent

933
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 1: with human dignity, and how it responded to thirty thousand

934
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 1: Ukrainians showing up in Tijuana this spring. In some days,

935
00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:35,359
Speaker 1: c d P accepted as many as a thousand Ukrainians

936
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:39,759
Speaker 1: in a given day, where as both on those days

937
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 1: they were accepting zero of other nationality, and they were

938
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:46,000
Speaker 1: able to get up to speed so quickly because every

939
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:48,360
Speaker 1: port of entry has a contingency plan. We are the

940
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 1: United States government. We are arguably one of the most powerful,

941
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:54,919
Speaker 1: well resource governments on Earth. If you buy the line

942
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:56,320
Speaker 1: that this is a crisis and we don't have a

943
00:54:56,360 --> 00:54:58,400
Speaker 1: contingency plan, then we've got a lot of work to

944
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 1: do here, um. And so it's not it's a it's

945
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 1: a manufactured crisis. Uh. We have the resources, we have

946
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,840
Speaker 1: the personnel. C DP has the largest law enforcement budget

947
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:11,360
Speaker 1: of all the law enforcement agencies in the federal government,

948
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:16,160
Speaker 1: and they have hands of thousands of personnel. It's what

949
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:20,880
Speaker 1: we lack is the political will and the emotional capital

950
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:25,320
Speaker 1: to do what we've already agreed to under US federal

951
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:29,520
Speaker 1: law as well as the Refugee Convention which we signed

952
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:34,839
Speaker 1: following World War Two, which was designed to prevent further

953
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:38,359
Speaker 1: genocide for their persecution of large groups of people. Um,

954
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 1: but we continue to renag on on on those obligations

955
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 1: to which we read to Yeah, yeah, like when we

956
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:49,719
Speaker 1: talk about genocide and persecution, Like I personally know people

957
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:51,800
Speaker 1: from me and MAA who are really struggling with the

958
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:56,160
Speaker 1: United States asylum system right now, and yeah, it's really

959
00:55:56,239 --> 00:56:01,759
Speaker 1: deeply just infuriating to see them continue to pursue this

960
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 1: kind of like waving my hands in the air, I

961
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 1: don't know what to do kind of thing. Let's talk

962
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 1: a little bit about Joe Biden and his policies, because

963
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 1: like they've been blackluster or just completely like in some cases,

964
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:16,840
Speaker 1: you know, he he's issued executive orders which basically have

965
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 1: gone on fulfilled right regarding asylum. And so they made

966
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:24,240
Speaker 1: a statement a few weeks ago now and Biden visited

967
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:27,640
Speaker 1: the border, and can you explain what he said in

968
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:30,959
Speaker 1: that statement? And then sort of what the Biden administration

969
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:34,480
Speaker 1: hasn't done to clear up the asylum system that it

970
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 1: promised it would do. The Buiding administration made a lot

971
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:43,280
Speaker 1: of promises on the campaign trail. UM made an effort

972
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 1: to put advocates in places in DHS other key positions

973
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:53,280
Speaker 1: to give the appearance that it was serious about reform

974
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 1: and treating immigrants in a way that is dignified and humane. UM.

975
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 1: But what we've seen is a continuation of Trump policies

976
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:08,600
Speaker 1: which restrict access to the border. For example, UM the

977
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:13,399
Speaker 1: new asylum band that they are proposing through regulation where

978
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:18,120
Speaker 1: individuals that have translated through another country UM and did

979
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 1: not seek asylum in that country even if that country

980
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 1: was not a safe country for them, UM that they

981
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 1: would be precluded from applying for asylum. A lot of

982
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:30,800
Speaker 1: people are have been enthusiastic about these new parole programs

983
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 1: for specific nationalities like Paraguans and Aswelans, um Haitians, Cubans. However,

984
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:43,440
Speaker 1: those programs are really just scraps UM. They have a

985
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:48,480
Speaker 1: thirty thousand person cap UM. The Ukrainian parole program had

986
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 1: a hundred thousand person cap which has already been surpassed

987
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 1: surpassed UM. Ukrainian sponsors well as the Ukrainian asylum seekers

988
00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 1: that were presenting through that prop RAM had much less

989
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:06,560
Speaker 1: by way of requirements UM. And so they've made a

990
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:11,760
Speaker 1: separate and not equal program for other nationalities which just

991
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 1: happened to be nationalities that aren't white. Yeah. Yeah, it's

992
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 1: hard not to see a kind of white people first

993
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 1: approach to asylum here. Yeah, it's certainly challenge histr ability

994
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 1: not to believe it's our right racist. So I wonder

995
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:33,880
Speaker 1: like going forward, obviously people listening will probably be sort

996
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:38,920
Speaker 1: of upset and concerned the continuing failures of our government.

997
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:41,680
Speaker 1: You don't think about it? Can you outline like how

998
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:45,480
Speaker 1: people can help? I know there's lots of people who

999
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 1: will do direct mutual aid right like people like food

1000
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:51,960
Speaker 1: not bombs of feeding people in Tijuana, But how can

1001
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:53,760
Speaker 1: folks maybe who are at the border, and then who

1002
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:55,760
Speaker 1: aren't near the border, how can how can they help

1003
00:58:56,120 --> 00:59:01,160
Speaker 1: well organizations that are at the border, including our who

1004
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 1: work with volunteers that are remote, um, particularly if they

1005
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 1: have a foreign language skill, because we can't serve toens

1006
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:13,440
Speaker 1: of thousands of people each year with just the staff

1007
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 1: that we have UM and so we have a really

1008
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:20,760
Speaker 1: robust remote volunteer network UM. I would also encourage people,

1009
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:24,200
Speaker 1: as you pointed out, to look for organizations in their

1010
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:29,720
Speaker 1: own community that are serving immigrants. It is incredibly humbling

1011
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:33,640
Speaker 1: to move to another country and realize you don't know

1012
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 1: how to read the light bill, UM, you don't know

1013
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:38,880
Speaker 1: how to register your kids for school? Can your kids

1014
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:41,440
Speaker 1: go to school? Where? Can I go to the doctor?

1015
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:45,000
Speaker 1: What you know? What is an ambulance? What that you

1016
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:46,520
Speaker 1: know that I do? I not have to pay for that?

1017
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 1: All of these things that might be different from them,

1018
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:54,080
Speaker 1: And a real lack of volunteers to assist people with

1019
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:59,320
Speaker 1: those daily integration activities UM that are so important to

1020
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:03,440
Speaker 1: figuring out how your new community works. UM. I also

1021
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:09,160
Speaker 1: encourage people too, when there's an opportunity to have conversations

1022
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:13,160
Speaker 1: with your elected official, to have those conversations, write emails,

1023
01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:16,680
Speaker 1: go in person if that's an opportunity. Different officials will

1024
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:19,560
Speaker 1: have open days for their offices where you might be

1025
01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:22,320
Speaker 1: able to get maybe not face time with that official,

1026
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:26,120
Speaker 1: but with their point person who is overseeing that issue

1027
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 1: right now. Are elected officials, they don't care about immigration

1028
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:35,040
Speaker 1: because a lot of their constituents are not making it

1029
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:37,479
Speaker 1: known to them what it is that they care about,

1030
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:40,600
Speaker 1: and that they're willing to go to drastic measures such

1031
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:44,880
Speaker 1: as shutting down their office. Um, if they don't take

1032
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:48,960
Speaker 1: action on immigration, we're all just thinking about it as Okay, well,

1033
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:52,200
Speaker 1: this is happening to immigrants. This is not me. I

1034
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 1: am a citizen. But all of the worst fascist policies

1035
01:00:55,960 --> 01:01:00,400
Speaker 1: are tried out first on groups and so id that

1036
01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:05,760
Speaker 1: have less political power, UM, on people that have criminal convictions,

1037
01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:09,400
Speaker 1: on the people who have disabilities that make it impossible

1038
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:14,120
Speaker 1: for them to communicate, um, on immigrants, and so I

1039
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 1: would really encourage you're if you're concerned about fascism, if

1040
01:01:18,680 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 1: you're concerned about how your rights may be trampled in

1041
01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:25,800
Speaker 1: the future, that focus on immigrants, because they are the

1042
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:31,360
Speaker 1: testing ground for a lot of fascist government's worst intentions. Yeah,

1043
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 1: and we've already seen that, right if people aren't familiar.

1044
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 1: It was bor Tech among others who were out there

1045
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:40,760
Speaker 1: running around Portland checking people into unmarked vans. It was

1046
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:45,760
Speaker 1: DHS drones surveiling people in Minneapolis. It was indeed DHS

1047
01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:50,520
Speaker 1: surveiling I think people from Malatlado and other organizations in

1048
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:54,240
Speaker 1: eighteen when lots of US acrossing the board are very

1049
01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:58,160
Speaker 1: often to help people who were part of what's called

1050
01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:01,000
Speaker 1: the migrant caravan then and so like this this is

1051
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:04,080
Speaker 1: happening to us. Right. There's a thing that crime think

1052
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:06,440
Speaker 1: have on some of their posters which I always like,

1053
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:09,480
Speaker 1: which is the border doesn't protect you, it controls you,

1054
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:12,720
Speaker 1: which I think is it's more true than ever now,

1055
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:15,160
Speaker 1: Like it's just sort of yeah, it's a place where

1056
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:17,760
Speaker 1: we experiment with these policies and they seem to they

1057
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:19,920
Speaker 1: seem to get away with them, right, Like, it doesn't

1058
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:21,840
Speaker 1: seem to be something that people care about that they

1059
01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:25,560
Speaker 1: did even two or three years ago under the Trump administration.

1060
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:29,120
Speaker 1: I wonder they call it. How can people Another thing

1061
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:33,160
Speaker 1: that I think people lack is like a direct connection

1062
01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:36,120
Speaker 1: to people seeking asylum or to the situation at the border,

1063
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:39,439
Speaker 1: right Like, every time something happens. I'm sure you've seen

1064
01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:42,480
Speaker 1: this more often than I have. And someone from l

1065
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 1: A or d C or New York or whatever kind

1066
01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 1: of parachutes into border communities, does it. I can see

1067
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:51,360
Speaker 1: that this is the frustration that you share. It does

1068
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:53,760
Speaker 1: a story which misses masses of context and then bug

1069
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:56,080
Speaker 1: us off back to the place where they came from.

1070
01:02:56,360 --> 01:03:01,240
Speaker 1: And so like, where where can people find better connections

1071
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:04,560
Speaker 1: to the situation for people seeking asylum? I really like

1072
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:08,520
Speaker 1: a blog and it's also a podcast every week, quarter

1073
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:13,360
Speaker 1: Chronicles Todd Miller's Quarterer Chronicles. I also would recommend reading

1074
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 1: all of Todd Miller's books. He is an incredible investigative

1075
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:20,960
Speaker 1: journalist that does the dive on how we got to

1076
01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:25,120
Speaker 1: this militarized state of your border. UM. So I would

1077
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:29,160
Speaker 1: recommend starting with Border Patrol Nation and just going straight

1078
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:33,760
Speaker 1: through there. UM. I also think Pro Publica also does

1079
01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:39,000
Speaker 1: really great investigative long dive reporting the intersect. I would

1080
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:42,040
Speaker 1: look at those places. Yeah, yeah, I think if you're

1081
01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:44,280
Speaker 1: in a border community, like it's a really know that

1082
01:03:44,360 --> 01:03:46,360
Speaker 1: hard to cross, and see what's going on for yourself

1083
01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:48,560
Speaker 1: and and do a little something to help, you know,

1084
01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:50,919
Speaker 1: make some of your your money that you set aside

1085
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:53,920
Speaker 1: veloping other people can go a long way if you

1086
01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:56,520
Speaker 1: choose to use it that way. And Nicole, how can

1087
01:03:56,560 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 1: people support your work directly? Like it's there a website

1088
01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:03,640
Speaker 1: or Twitter account they can follow to find more. Now,

1089
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:07,680
Speaker 1: we do have our own website. We're also on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter,

1090
01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:14,200
Speaker 1: and LinkedIn. We regularly post opportunities to volunteer remotely, volunteer

1091
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:18,320
Speaker 1: in person, UM and campaigns that people want to donate

1092
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 1: to UM there's that opportunity as well. Great, and is

1093
01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:24,720
Speaker 1: there anything else you want to share about that you

1094
01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:26,640
Speaker 1: feel that our listeners should know, maybe if they haven't

1095
01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:30,760
Speaker 1: been following border situation closely. The border situation is part

1096
01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:35,040
Speaker 1: of a larger historical context. And briefly I talked about

1097
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:39,120
Speaker 1: earlier the US as a signatory to the Refugee Convention,

1098
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:42,880
Speaker 1: which is an outgrowth of the horror that the world

1099
01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:45,920
Speaker 1: collectively felt um when we came to grips with what

1100
01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:49,480
Speaker 1: happened during the Holocaust, and you know, we collectively said

1101
01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 1: never again, never again. Part of our part in the

1102
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:58,000
Speaker 1: Holocaust was we rejected the m S. St. Louis from

1103
01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:01,840
Speaker 1: the coast of Florida, and there was over nine d

1104
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 1: Jewish refugees that were on that boat. No other country

1105
01:05:04,960 --> 01:05:08,960
Speaker 1: accepted them, Cuba, Canada rejected and ultimately had to go

1106
01:05:09,040 --> 01:05:11,400
Speaker 1: back to Europe. And some of those people ultimately died

1107
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:15,360
Speaker 1: in the Holocaust. And and those deaths are are on

1108
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:21,040
Speaker 1: our conscience. Uh. And any time the asylum seekers are

1109
01:05:21,120 --> 01:05:23,920
Speaker 1: being turned away along the border when they have the

1110
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:27,040
Speaker 1: legal right to present themselves under existing US law and

1111
01:05:27,080 --> 01:05:29,920
Speaker 1: international law, it's a it's a repetition of the M

1112
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:32,520
Speaker 1: s St. Louis, except it's happening all across the border

1113
01:05:32,920 --> 01:05:36,280
Speaker 1: every single day. Yeah, that's very well put, and it is.

1114
01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:38,840
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter if it's one person or a hundred people,

1115
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:41,880
Speaker 1: like it's a tragedy every time we can't give some

1116
01:05:42,040 --> 01:05:43,720
Speaker 1: We have plenty of safe places for people to go,

1117
01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:47,720
Speaker 1: but when deciding not to not to welcome them, and yeah,

1118
01:05:47,760 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 1: it's very very sad. Well, thank you so much for

1119
01:05:50,520 --> 01:05:53,479
Speaker 1: giving us some of your afternoon, Nicole. Um. If people

1120
01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:55,200
Speaker 1: want to find you personally, do you have a personal

1121
01:05:55,840 --> 01:06:00,240
Speaker 1: social media Yeah, you can find me on Twitter. Um. Yes,

1122
01:06:00,920 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 1: I'm loosen on Twitter. Okay, great? And altro laddo? Is

1123
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:11,600
Speaker 1: it just a laddo on Twitter? Yest level? Sometimes we

1124
01:06:11,680 --> 01:06:15,080
Speaker 1: have a love level dot work and again yeah, so

1125
01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:17,960
Speaker 1: there's a l O t r O l A d

1126
01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:22,520
Speaker 1: O if people are need to spend out right. Thank you, wonderful,

1127
01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:40,640
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Hello and welcome to It could

1128
01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:44,640
Speaker 1: happen here once again. Posted by myself Andrew from the

1129
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:49,560
Speaker 1: YouTube channel andrewism as we talk about whatever and whatever

1130
01:06:49,640 --> 01:06:54,040
Speaker 1: in question is the second most populous country in the world,

1131
01:06:54,520 --> 01:06:58,600
Speaker 1: and one potential vision for its future drawn from its

1132
01:06:58,680 --> 01:07:03,480
Speaker 1: anti cludal past are speaking of course about India, a

1133
01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:06,440
Speaker 1: sub concerant from which I draw a good portion of

1134
01:07:06,520 --> 01:07:09,800
Speaker 1: my heritage, and one that boasts over nine thousand years

1135
01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:14,640
Speaker 1: of recorded history and roughly fifty years of known human settlement.

1136
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:23,440
Speaker 1: India is an incredibly diverised country ethnically, linguistically, religiously and otherwise.

1137
01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:27,520
Speaker 1: But unfortunately it has suffered much of the same faith

1138
01:07:27,600 --> 01:07:31,280
Speaker 1: that the rest the world has fallen, creating the rapacious

1139
01:07:31,440 --> 01:07:39,040
Speaker 1: appetite of British clunialism. Well, historically, the Indian local economy

1140
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:45,000
Speaker 1: was dependent upon the most productive and sustainable agriculture and horticulture,

1141
01:07:45,080 --> 01:07:48,920
Speaker 1: and of course pottery and footing. Jamaican jewelry was very

1142
01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:52,800
Speaker 1: well known for jewelry, and in fact Indian jewelry makers

1143
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:57,400
Speaker 1: ended up starting some very successful jewelry businesses when they

1144
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:02,360
Speaker 1: were freed from indentionship in or that um. They also

1145
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:04,800
Speaker 1: got involved in leather work and a lot of other

1146
01:08:05,160 --> 01:08:10,360
Speaker 1: economic activities in India. UM. But the basis of India

1147
01:08:10,480 --> 01:08:15,120
Speaker 1: has traditionally, historically, you know, for thousands of years been textiles,

1148
01:08:15,280 --> 01:08:18,840
Speaker 1: different types of textiles. Each village had its spinners and

1149
01:08:19,040 --> 01:08:22,360
Speaker 1: carters and dyers and weavers who were of course at

1150
01:08:22,400 --> 01:08:27,240
Speaker 1: the heart of that village's economy. But an interesting outcome

1151
01:08:27,880 --> 01:08:30,920
Speaker 1: of British cleanism in India has been the flooding of

1152
01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:35,559
Speaker 1: India with the machine made, inexpensive, mass produced textiles from

1153
01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:40,960
Speaker 1: Lancashire during you know, in Briturn's Industrial Revolution, the local

1154
01:08:41,040 --> 01:08:43,759
Speaker 1: textile artists who are very quickly put out to business

1155
01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:48,280
Speaker 1: and village economies suffered very terribly. So I mean, you know, well,

1156
01:08:48,560 --> 01:08:51,599
Speaker 1: I think we're familiar with this sort of general story.

1157
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:59,920
Speaker 1: Smaller cottage industries became overrun by you know, mass production.

1158
01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:01,920
Speaker 1: And of course I don't mean to sound like I'm

1159
01:09:02,040 --> 01:09:06,280
Speaker 1: entirely demonizing mass production, just describing what has happened. Of course,

1160
01:09:07,040 --> 01:09:10,559
Speaker 1: mass production has had its many benefits in providing access

1161
01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:16,240
Speaker 1: to resources and two products many different people. But of

1162
01:09:16,320 --> 01:09:20,080
Speaker 1: course it's also had its many drawbacks, including you know,

1163
01:09:20,479 --> 01:09:24,040
Speaker 1: the share environmental impact as well as the impact on

1164
01:09:24,240 --> 01:09:28,639
Speaker 1: people um you know, as Mark spoke about, of um,

1165
01:09:29,280 --> 01:09:34,840
Speaker 1: their alienation from the process of production, as the industrial

1166
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:39,799
Speaker 1: system basically separated each step in the process of production

1167
01:09:40,080 --> 01:09:42,160
Speaker 1: two different workers and so no one had a hand

1168
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:44,799
Speaker 1: in the production of a product and start to finish,

1169
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:50,200
Speaker 1: and of course that that had significant social and I

1170
01:09:50,240 --> 01:09:55,120
Speaker 1: would also assume mental impact on the people with you know,

1171
01:09:56,080 --> 01:10:00,160
Speaker 1: that whole era of British economic imperialism happening in the UH.

1172
01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:04,400
Speaker 1: The changes that took place within a generation was so rapid,

1173
01:10:04,479 --> 01:10:08,360
Speaker 1: you know, your headwards spin that evolution of you know,

1174
01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:12,559
Speaker 1: the India home economy. It was really a site to behold.

1175
01:10:13,240 --> 01:10:18,360
Speaker 1: And another element of British economic impuialism and British imperialism

1176
01:10:18,439 --> 01:10:22,799
Speaker 1: more broadly was the instruction of British education under colonial

1177
01:10:22,920 --> 01:10:26,839
Speaker 1: rule in the eighteenth century UM. When Lord McCaulay introduced

1178
01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:30,360
Speaker 1: the Indian Education Act in the British Parliament UM, he said,

1179
01:10:30,600 --> 01:10:34,560
Speaker 1: and I quote, a single shelf of a good European

1180
01:10:34,880 --> 01:10:39,160
Speaker 1: library was with the whole native literature of India. Neither

1181
01:10:39,200 --> 01:10:41,160
Speaker 1: as a language of the law, nor as a language

1182
01:10:41,160 --> 01:10:44,479
Speaker 1: of religion, has a sang script any particular claim to

1183
01:10:44,560 --> 01:10:47,080
Speaker 1: our engagement. We must do our best to form a

1184
01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:51,080
Speaker 1: class of persons Indian in blood and color, but English

1185
01:10:51,240 --> 01:10:54,880
Speaker 1: in taste, in opinions, in morals, and in intellect. So

1186
01:10:55,400 --> 01:11:01,320
Speaker 1: the typical racism, typical white pants, burdon, typical you know. Um.

1187
01:11:02,360 --> 01:11:04,879
Speaker 1: Of course, this phrase was used in a North American

1188
01:11:05,720 --> 01:11:10,080
Speaker 1: indigenous American context. But I believe the phrase is taking

1189
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:13,240
Speaker 1: the Indian out to the man. Yeah, kill the Indians,

1190
01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:16,479
Speaker 1: save the man, right, Um, So it's kind of interesting.

1191
01:11:16,680 --> 01:11:18,640
Speaker 1: It's a different type of Indian talking about there, but

1192
01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:22,800
Speaker 1: that sort of idea still applies. And really that sort

1193
01:11:22,840 --> 01:11:25,960
Speaker 1: of sentiment is something that has existed throughout the history

1194
01:11:25,960 --> 01:11:30,920
Speaker 1: of communism, something that you know is seen in all

1195
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:35,639
Speaker 1: of Britain's former colonies. Because Monster's Aim was put into

1196
01:11:35,680 --> 01:11:38,880
Speaker 1: Parliament and pushed forward, it was pursued with the mind

1197
01:11:38,960 --> 01:11:41,679
Speaker 1: to the British raj or the traditional schools that took

1198
01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:47,000
Speaker 1: place in different village communities were gradually replaced by colonial

1199
01:11:47,120 --> 01:11:51,120
Speaker 1: schools and universities. Of course, taking advantage of the cast

1200
01:11:51,200 --> 01:11:53,639
Speaker 1: and class system that was in place in India prior

1201
01:11:53,680 --> 01:11:57,799
Speaker 1: to their arrival, the British would have selected wealthier Indians

1202
01:11:57,840 --> 01:12:00,519
Speaker 1: to be sensed to public schools such as Eaton and

1203
01:12:00,640 --> 01:12:05,120
Speaker 1: Haru and universities like Oxford and Cambridge, and those Indians

1204
01:12:05,240 --> 01:12:07,960
Speaker 1: that you know, they learned English poetry, English law, English

1205
01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:11,320
Speaker 1: customs to the neglect of their own culture. You know,

1206
01:12:11,400 --> 01:12:15,439
Speaker 1: It's like, why read the classics of the Vadas when

1207
01:12:15,760 --> 01:12:20,880
Speaker 1: you have Shakespeare and the London times. And so having

1208
01:12:20,960 --> 01:12:24,200
Speaker 1: been raised in that environment, having grown up, having basically

1209
01:12:24,240 --> 01:12:27,680
Speaker 1: their minds colonized from the crib, they began to see

1210
01:12:27,720 --> 01:12:33,720
Speaker 1: their own cultures as backward, uncivilized, old fashioned, regressive and

1211
01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:37,679
Speaker 1: again something you see all over the world. You sorts

1212
01:12:37,720 --> 01:12:41,000
Speaker 1: in the residential schools, you see it in the schools

1213
01:12:41,040 --> 01:12:42,960
Speaker 1: in the Caribbean, and you see it in schools in Africa.

1214
01:12:43,080 --> 01:12:47,040
Speaker 1: Basically everywhere they colonized went um. They would take a generation,

1215
01:12:47,400 --> 01:12:50,519
Speaker 1: they were take generations of young people, and they would

1216
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:54,360
Speaker 1: developed that self hatred um not the staining for their

1217
01:12:54,360 --> 01:12:58,960
Speaker 1: own culture by you know, positioning um their education, British

1218
01:12:59,080 --> 01:13:05,080
Speaker 1: education as you know, superior. In fact, during the process

1219
01:13:05,160 --> 01:13:09,120
Speaker 1: of decolonization coulde and quote um of you know, formal

1220
01:13:09,240 --> 01:13:14,000
Speaker 1: political independence many of the former colonies of Britain, particularly

1221
01:13:14,040 --> 01:13:17,120
Speaker 1: the Caribbeans. That's where most familiar um. A lot of

1222
01:13:17,200 --> 01:13:19,759
Speaker 1: the people who became you know, the fullest prime ministers

1223
01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:23,200
Speaker 1: of the country, the one that would establish the trajectory

1224
01:13:23,360 --> 01:13:26,519
Speaker 1: of the country for years of decades to come. Um.

1225
01:13:27,280 --> 01:13:32,160
Speaker 1: Thinking of people like Bustamante in Jamaica, Eric Williams, Dr.

1226
01:13:32,240 --> 01:13:36,559
Speaker 1: Ric Williams and Trance peakle Um among others. Basically all

1227
01:13:36,640 --> 01:13:40,679
Speaker 1: of the fullest prime ministers basically every single Caribbean country.

1228
01:13:41,280 --> 01:13:47,200
Speaker 1: They had all been educated, um in English schools, in

1229
01:13:47,680 --> 01:13:52,799
Speaker 1: English universities, in well in the prestige schools of their countries,

1230
01:13:52,920 --> 01:13:55,840
Speaker 1: didn't end up being flewn out to Britain itself, and

1231
01:13:55,880 --> 01:14:02,800
Speaker 1: they basically became the rulers, became the leaders um well

1232
01:14:02,920 --> 01:14:06,040
Speaker 1: handed power over by the British to basically rule in

1233
01:14:06,160 --> 01:14:10,920
Speaker 1: their stead. Of course, that's all the talk of finally independence. UM.

1234
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:15,960
Speaker 1: People got caught up in that energy of political independence

1235
01:14:16,000 --> 01:14:19,960
Speaker 1: and freedom from the control of the British after all

1236
01:14:20,120 --> 01:14:26,880
Speaker 1: the decades and centuries of struggle. But unfortunately it proved,

1237
01:14:26,920 --> 01:14:30,479
Speaker 1: I believe to be a ruse as very little changed

1238
01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:35,800
Speaker 1: for the average person in the s post political independence. Yeah,

1239
01:14:35,840 --> 01:14:38,880
Speaker 1: this is something that Phnan talks about um in in

1240
01:14:39,040 --> 01:14:41,600
Speaker 1: the sort of Francophone context of like, even even in

1241
01:14:41,640 --> 01:14:44,960
Speaker 1: countries you have like Atward, you know that the colonizes

1242
01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:47,080
Speaker 1: are thrown up actual revolutions, you get this class of

1243
01:14:47,200 --> 01:14:53,760
Speaker 1: like like lawyers and intellectuals who are like have been

1244
01:14:53,880 --> 01:14:56,759
Speaker 1: educated like in imperialist powers or in sort of their schools,

1245
01:14:56,760 --> 01:15:00,800
Speaker 1: who wind up as like the first generation of of

1246
01:15:01,040 --> 01:15:04,439
Speaker 1: post independence leaders and those people like you know what,

1247
01:15:04,600 --> 01:15:07,320
Speaker 1: whether they want to or not, end up sort of

1248
01:15:07,439 --> 01:15:11,600
Speaker 1: like reflecting the sort of values and political positions of

1249
01:15:13,479 --> 01:15:15,360
Speaker 1: like of the form of colonial powers. And there's this

1250
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:18,320
Speaker 1: whole sort of dynamic that like I feel like, I

1251
01:15:18,400 --> 01:15:20,920
Speaker 1: feel like this is the part of but not that

1252
01:15:21,000 --> 01:15:24,800
Speaker 1: people don't read very much, But that's about how these

1253
01:15:24,920 --> 01:15:28,200
Speaker 1: leaders sort of like lose touch with it with the

1254
01:15:28,240 --> 01:15:30,479
Speaker 1: sort of like math anti colonial masses, and how they

1255
01:15:30,520 --> 01:15:34,559
Speaker 1: sort of like wind up reincorporating their countries back into

1256
01:15:34,600 --> 01:15:38,639
Speaker 1: sort of colonialism. Yeah. Yeah, that's really how you see

1257
01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:42,519
Speaker 1: that nucleonal dynamic developing UM. And it's really it's hard

1258
01:15:42,560 --> 01:15:46,680
Speaker 1: to tell, um retrospectively whether these leaders thought they were

1259
01:15:46,760 --> 01:15:50,519
Speaker 1: actually you know, anti colonial or if they knew that

1260
01:15:50,600 --> 01:15:55,000
Speaker 1: they were you know, carrying on a particular legacy. But

1261
01:15:55,560 --> 01:15:59,920
Speaker 1: I find that because is only um only recently celebrate

1262
01:16:00,040 --> 01:16:03,600
Speaker 1: to just last year sixty years of independence, there of

1263
01:16:03,680 --> 01:16:06,920
Speaker 1: course people who are alive prior to independence, and so

1264
01:16:07,000 --> 01:16:09,920
Speaker 1: you find a lot of the older generation how they

1265
01:16:10,120 --> 01:16:13,000
Speaker 1: how some of them speak, particularly more educated ones, how

1266
01:16:13,080 --> 01:16:16,639
Speaker 1: they carry themselves or they dress, the attitudes their spouse

1267
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:19,879
Speaker 1: is very much like to get any kind of respect

1268
01:16:20,600 --> 01:16:23,960
Speaker 1: in their time, you had to behave with me, had

1269
01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:25,600
Speaker 1: to present yourself with me, and to present yourself in

1270
01:16:25,640 --> 01:16:30,800
Speaker 1: a as approximate to Britishness as possible, the whole you know,

1271
01:16:30,920 --> 01:16:33,920
Speaker 1: conversation of respectability, politics and stuff. So I have some

1272
01:16:34,080 --> 01:16:36,439
Speaker 1: understanding of what they had to go through and where

1273
01:16:36,479 --> 01:16:39,719
Speaker 1: they're coming from when they hold onto these perspectives still

1274
01:16:39,800 --> 01:16:43,479
Speaker 1: because that's what they grew up in. Um. But it

1275
01:16:43,560 --> 01:16:46,640
Speaker 1: really is a shame that they've been hooling back progress

1276
01:16:46,800 --> 01:16:50,560
Speaker 1: for so long now because they still hold on to

1277
01:16:50,680 --> 01:16:55,599
Speaker 1: these deeply conservative, deeply religious, deeply reactionary ideas that we're

1278
01:16:56,439 --> 01:17:00,080
Speaker 1: just you know, they just implicated within the edecute and

1279
01:17:00,160 --> 01:17:05,479
Speaker 1: system and in the cultural cast all the time. I

1280
01:17:05,640 --> 01:17:08,439
Speaker 1: was just when I was talking about Fan, I was

1281
01:17:08,479 --> 01:17:10,559
Speaker 1: thinking as well about like, have you read a book

1282
01:17:10,640 --> 01:17:15,000
Speaker 1: called Beyond the Boundary by C. L. James Andrew. I

1283
01:17:15,120 --> 01:17:18,200
Speaker 1: haven't because it's about cricket and I'm not too integrated cricket.

1284
01:17:19,880 --> 01:17:22,320
Speaker 1: But I've been, Um, I know it's an iconic and

1285
01:17:22,439 --> 01:17:25,400
Speaker 1: I think he ye, he explains a lot of that

1286
01:17:25,560 --> 01:17:28,200
Speaker 1: very well. I think people could read it even if

1287
01:17:28,200 --> 01:17:30,800
Speaker 1: they don't. Like I'm not a big cricket person. But

1288
01:17:31,439 --> 01:17:34,280
Speaker 1: it's certainly one of the best sports books I've read,

1289
01:17:34,360 --> 01:17:36,800
Speaker 1: and maybe one of the best books. And he doesn't

1290
01:17:39,040 --> 01:17:41,040
Speaker 1: he put on a lot of bangers in his time. Yeah,

1291
01:17:41,240 --> 01:17:45,240
Speaker 1: he did have some bags, highly recommended. Yeah, if you

1292
01:17:45,280 --> 01:17:46,920
Speaker 1: if you don't want to read about cricket. He also

1293
01:17:46,960 --> 01:17:49,920
Speaker 1: talks about this in The crewmin and the Ghana Revolution. Yeah,

1294
01:17:52,320 --> 01:17:58,000
Speaker 1: that is not about cricket. It's more of an autobiography,

1295
01:17:58,120 --> 01:18:00,680
Speaker 1: like seen through the lens of his his ricket, I think.

1296
01:18:00,920 --> 01:18:03,320
Speaker 1: But yeah, it'd be cool because I know he spent

1297
01:18:03,360 --> 01:18:05,080
Speaker 1: a lot of time. He grew up of course born

1298
01:18:05,160 --> 01:18:07,519
Speaker 1: readers and stuff and true and that, so we're interested

1299
01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:11,840
Speaker 1: to see um sort of if he talks about his

1300
01:18:11,880 --> 01:18:17,679
Speaker 1: political development, how Adau was in this time in Tranad, Yeah,

1301
01:18:17,720 --> 01:18:19,320
Speaker 1: I think he does. It's been a while since I've

1302
01:18:19,360 --> 01:18:20,960
Speaker 1: read it, but I think he talks about like how

1303
01:18:21,240 --> 01:18:24,840
Speaker 1: he sort of saw himself constituted as colonial subjectly through

1304
01:18:25,280 --> 01:18:28,600
Speaker 1: his experiences interacting with British people on one of the

1305
01:18:28,720 --> 01:18:30,960
Speaker 1: places where the terrains where he'd encountered them, I guess

1306
01:18:31,320 --> 01:18:36,080
Speaker 1: was playing cricket because great, yes, of course, and you know,

1307
01:18:36,240 --> 01:18:41,040
Speaker 1: thankfully we've come to decimate them at their own game

1308
01:18:41,080 --> 01:18:49,799
Speaker 1: as usual, it's true. Yeah yeah, And even like English

1309
01:18:49,840 --> 01:18:51,840
Speaker 1: cricket at a certain point, like getting really into cricket,

1310
01:18:51,880 --> 01:18:54,840
Speaker 1: which I know it is a diversion, but like they

1311
01:18:55,000 --> 01:18:56,880
Speaker 1: had rules where you could only have a certain number

1312
01:18:56,880 --> 01:19:02,200
Speaker 1: of international players playing for each English county. It's it's extreme,

1313
01:19:02,360 --> 01:19:04,559
Speaker 1: like if you look at how the Empire constituted white

1314
01:19:04,720 --> 01:19:06,880
Speaker 1: through sport, and like who was allowed to play rugby,

1315
01:19:07,360 --> 01:19:09,320
Speaker 1: which is a touching sport, and who was allowed to

1316
01:19:09,320 --> 01:19:11,680
Speaker 1: play cricket, which which isn't normally a touching sport like

1317
01:19:11,760 --> 01:19:15,559
Speaker 1: it did think it's racist as fun, yeah, I mean,

1318
01:19:15,640 --> 01:19:20,920
Speaker 1: of course it's hilariousism in sports history. Sorry for the

1319
01:19:20,960 --> 01:19:25,679
Speaker 1: cricket diversion. Sorry, please continue, as it's entirely fine. I see,

1320
01:19:25,880 --> 01:19:27,760
Speaker 1: it's all Greek to me because I don't know what

1321
01:19:27,800 --> 01:19:31,000
Speaker 1: any of those points or numbers or anything means um

1322
01:19:32,080 --> 01:19:33,760
Speaker 1: to many different types of cricket. I mean, I've had

1323
01:19:33,800 --> 01:19:35,560
Speaker 1: people try to explain to me before. It's just that

1324
01:19:35,720 --> 01:19:38,080
Speaker 1: my thing. Um. I know people who play it though,

1325
01:19:38,160 --> 01:19:41,080
Speaker 1: so you know, good for them at all. But back

1326
01:19:41,120 --> 01:19:44,599
Speaker 1: to India, right, if there's one particular person in India's

1327
01:19:44,600 --> 01:19:49,080
Speaker 1: history that really represented this type of Western educated colony

1328
01:19:49,200 --> 01:19:52,760
Speaker 1: his subject, trying to be something bigger than that kind

1329
01:19:52,800 --> 01:19:57,200
Speaker 1: of mentality. It was Jawaharlal who became the first Prime

1330
01:19:57,240 --> 01:20:01,320
Speaker 1: minister after independence. Their ruf course so to promote the

1331
01:20:01,400 --> 01:20:05,880
Speaker 1: industrialization of India not be a capitalist route, but by

1332
01:20:05,960 --> 01:20:07,960
Speaker 1: more of a centralized plan and route, which is why

1333
01:20:08,479 --> 01:20:10,639
Speaker 1: if you look in the India India's constitution you will

1334
01:20:10,680 --> 01:20:16,840
Speaker 1: see that it's reference to itself as a socialist country. Actually, really,

1335
01:20:16,880 --> 01:20:18,800
Speaker 1: if I'm remembering right, neighbor, it was like he was

1336
01:20:18,840 --> 01:20:22,679
Speaker 1: like a Fabian socialist or something. Yeah, yeah, his inspiration came,

1337
01:20:24,000 --> 01:20:26,679
Speaker 1: his inspiration came from the intellectuals of the London School

1338
01:20:26,680 --> 01:20:31,160
Speaker 1: of Economics and the Fabian society. So yeah, he's quite

1339
01:20:31,200 --> 01:20:34,240
Speaker 1: the character. You see, the sort of direction that he

1340
01:20:34,400 --> 01:20:37,840
Speaker 1: ends up putting the country. And I mean even today,

1341
01:20:38,680 --> 01:20:41,800
Speaker 1: India in many ways continues to be ruled in the

1342
01:20:41,960 --> 01:20:46,400
Speaker 1: English way without English rulers. Um, just like in the

1343
01:20:46,479 --> 01:20:49,479
Speaker 1: Caribbean continues to be ruled in the English way without

1344
01:20:49,520 --> 01:20:54,600
Speaker 1: English rulers. In Africa, you know, the various countries have

1345
01:20:54,680 --> 01:20:57,439
Speaker 1: been ruling their various colonize and powers way rather than

1346
01:20:57,640 --> 01:21:02,240
Speaker 1: in their own way without the colonizes rulers, father colonizing rulers. UM.

1347
01:21:03,640 --> 01:21:06,519
Speaker 1: The industrialists, the intellectuals, the entrepreneurs, all of them are

1348
01:21:06,720 --> 01:21:09,799
Speaker 1: working with the government to see the salvation of India

1349
01:21:09,920 --> 01:21:15,200
Speaker 1: taking place in a subordination to the world. Back can

1350
01:21:15,320 --> 01:21:17,400
Speaker 1: the I M F from the G A T T.

1351
01:21:18,640 --> 01:21:21,240
Speaker 1: You know, they see India as part of this global economy,

1352
01:21:22,280 --> 01:21:27,320
Speaker 1: meant to submit into sue to multinational corporations. UM. But

1353
01:21:27,360 --> 01:21:30,639
Speaker 1: of course the people of India h not to please

1354
01:21:30,680 --> 01:21:33,120
Speaker 1: in the people of India suffering under the brunt of

1355
01:21:33,160 --> 01:21:37,320
Speaker 1: that UM. After seeing the failures of of course the

1356
01:21:37,400 --> 01:21:41,040
Speaker 1: Congress Party under Nehru and his daughter Indira Gandhi and

1357
01:21:41,120 --> 01:21:48,240
Speaker 1: her son Rajiv Gandhi. Um, the poor continues to be

1358
01:21:48,280 --> 01:21:54,880
Speaker 1: poor than ever. The middle classes and tuning towards h

1359
01:21:55,640 --> 01:22:01,000
Speaker 1: just say certain directions. UM. And of course, as we've

1360
01:22:01,040 --> 01:22:03,559
Speaker 1: seen in the past few years, the farmers have been

1361
01:22:03,600 --> 01:22:11,960
Speaker 1: agitating against various pressures. They've been placed under things, kind

1362
01:22:11,960 --> 01:22:17,120
Speaker 1: of stuff. And it was pretty much how Mahatma Gandhi

1363
01:22:17,720 --> 01:22:23,840
Speaker 1: predicted that it would. Because unlike Neru and unlike other

1364
01:22:24,600 --> 01:22:28,200
Speaker 1: Western here to thinkers of his time, UM Gandhi thought

1365
01:22:28,280 --> 01:22:31,920
Speaker 1: differently about what India's potential could be what it looked like.

1366
01:22:32,120 --> 01:22:38,120
Speaker 1: And that's part of the reason they killed him. And

1367
01:22:38,880 --> 01:22:42,519
Speaker 1: I must preface this discussion of Gandhi's vision of a

1368
01:22:42,560 --> 01:22:46,200
Speaker 1: free India by Norton of course, that Gandhi himself was

1369
01:22:46,240 --> 01:22:52,200
Speaker 1: a very flawed person. Um, you know, racist, sexist, Um,

1370
01:22:53,080 --> 01:22:57,160
Speaker 1: pretty sure he assaulted somebody, He did some very um

1371
01:22:58,120 --> 01:23:01,360
Speaker 1: fucked up stuff to his niece. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1372
01:23:01,479 --> 01:23:04,760
Speaker 1: I just well, well leave it at that. But I

1373
01:23:04,800 --> 01:23:06,960
Speaker 1: mean that's not something you can put aside for something

1374
01:23:07,000 --> 01:23:11,640
Speaker 1: to be cognizant of. But one of the aspects of

1375
01:23:12,520 --> 01:23:18,400
Speaker 1: um his time on this planet had been his development

1376
01:23:18,520 --> 01:23:20,280
Speaker 1: of a sort of a vision of a free India,

1377
01:23:20,920 --> 01:23:24,760
Speaker 1: not as a nation state, but as a confederation of

1378
01:23:24,920 --> 01:23:29,120
Speaker 1: self governance, self reliance, self employed people living in village

1379
01:23:29,160 --> 01:23:34,200
Speaker 1: communities deriving their right livelihood from the products of their homesteads.

1380
01:23:35,200 --> 01:23:37,439
Speaker 1: It would have been a sort of a bottom up

1381
01:23:38,040 --> 01:23:42,000
Speaker 1: system where the power to decide what could be important

1382
01:23:42,040 --> 01:23:45,160
Speaker 1: into an expert from the village via economic and political power.

1383
01:23:45,439 --> 01:23:49,280
Speaker 1: All I mean in the hands of village assemblies, where

1384
01:23:49,439 --> 01:23:53,679
Speaker 1: people in these village assemblies, in these communities would continue

1385
01:23:53,800 --> 01:23:58,439
Speaker 1: to live in relative how many with their surroundings with um.

1386
01:23:58,760 --> 01:24:03,280
Speaker 1: They would continue to we've their homespun clothes, eat their

1387
01:24:03,320 --> 01:24:06,040
Speaker 1: home and grown food, use their home made goods, care

1388
01:24:06,120 --> 01:24:09,840
Speaker 1: for their animals, their forests and their lands, take care

1389
01:24:09,880 --> 01:24:14,719
Speaker 1: of the futility the soil, enjoy the home grown stories

1390
01:24:14,800 --> 01:24:18,360
Speaker 1: and epics of India, and continue to build their temples

1391
01:24:18,520 --> 01:24:25,439
Speaker 1: and appreciates their various regional distinctive cultures. This was meant

1392
01:24:25,520 --> 01:24:30,200
Speaker 1: to be the system, the practice the idea of the

1393
01:24:30,280 --> 01:24:34,680
Speaker 1: philosophy of Swadeshi, which is a conjunction of two San

1394
01:24:34,760 --> 01:24:39,759
Speaker 1: Skrit words Swa which meaning self or own and desh

1395
01:24:39,880 --> 01:24:44,120
Speaker 1: meaning country, Swadeshi as an adjective meaning of one's own country.

1396
01:24:44,800 --> 01:24:48,240
Speaker 1: According to the principle of Swadeshi, the idea is that

1397
01:24:49,040 --> 01:24:51,160
Speaker 1: whatever has made or produced in a village must be

1398
01:24:51,280 --> 01:24:54,160
Speaker 1: used first and foremost by the members of that village.

1399
01:24:55,160 --> 01:24:58,120
Speaker 1: So I mean there could be traded and collaboration between

1400
01:24:58,240 --> 01:25:02,639
Speaker 1: villages and communities, but gardily thread it should be minimal,

1401
01:25:02,800 --> 01:25:04,120
Speaker 1: like a sort of an ice and on the cake.

1402
01:25:04,920 --> 01:25:08,000
Speaker 1: Um goods and services to him was something that should

1403
01:25:08,000 --> 01:25:11,559
Speaker 1: have been generated within the community. The things that needed

1404
01:25:11,600 --> 01:25:13,840
Speaker 1: to be used by the community should be created in

1405
01:25:13,920 --> 01:25:20,200
Speaker 1: that community. Another influential. Perhaps the most influential aspect of

1406
01:25:20,360 --> 01:25:24,920
Speaker 1: Swedeshi and Swadeshi philosophy took place in the early twentieth

1407
01:25:25,000 --> 01:25:28,479
Speaker 1: century as a direct fallout the decision of the British

1408
01:25:28,520 --> 01:25:34,880
Speaker 1: India governments to partition Bengal. The use of Swedeshi goods

1409
01:25:35,200 --> 01:25:37,439
Speaker 1: or the goods that are produced and made in India

1410
01:25:37,520 --> 01:25:40,519
Speaker 1: by and here for Indians, and the boycott of foreign

1411
01:25:40,560 --> 01:25:43,800
Speaker 1: made goods were among the two main objectives of the

1412
01:25:43,840 --> 01:25:48,439
Speaker 1: Swedeeshi movement, and the boycott resolution ended up being passed

1413
01:25:48,479 --> 01:25:52,439
Speaker 1: in Calcutta City Hall in August seven nine four UM

1414
01:25:52,720 --> 01:25:55,000
Speaker 1: boycott in the use of Manchester cloth and sold from

1415
01:25:55,040 --> 01:25:58,280
Speaker 1: Liverpool in the district to barrisl The masses adopted the

1416
01:25:58,320 --> 01:26:02,160
Speaker 1: message of boycott aformadoods and the value of the British cloth,

1417
01:26:02,280 --> 01:26:08,559
Speaker 1: So they have fell very rapidly. Various songs and cultural

1418
01:26:08,680 --> 01:26:12,600
Speaker 1: works ended up being produced in the time UM to

1419
01:26:12,800 --> 01:26:17,400
Speaker 1: sort of bolster the movement. At one point one English

1420
01:26:17,439 --> 01:26:21,800
Speaker 1: cloths were burned as part of the boycott, and the

1421
01:26:21,960 --> 01:26:27,800
Speaker 1: symbol of caddy spinners, the sort of tool that was

1422
01:26:28,000 --> 01:26:34,439
Speaker 1: used to weave cloth to we've fibers creaton, became a

1423
01:26:34,560 --> 01:26:39,559
Speaker 1: nature force in the movement and the representation of the movement.

1424
01:26:40,880 --> 01:26:42,640
Speaker 1: I think I get what you're saying, that we can

1425
01:26:42,680 --> 01:26:45,519
Speaker 1: all benefit from a little specialization and and that the

1426
01:26:46,640 --> 01:26:51,480
Speaker 1: like improvements that that brings, while still sort of acknowledging

1427
01:26:51,520 --> 01:26:54,360
Speaker 1: that autonomy is desirable. Yeah, I think there needs to

1428
01:26:54,400 --> 01:26:57,639
Speaker 1: be some some balance between your autonomy and surft reliance

1429
01:26:57,640 --> 01:27:00,599
Speaker 1: and that kind of thing, and also operation. I think

1430
01:27:00,640 --> 01:27:03,960
Speaker 1: he goes a bit too much in that autonomy direction.

1431
01:27:04,080 --> 01:27:08,320
Speaker 1: But in the context of when these ideas being developed,

1432
01:27:08,360 --> 01:27:12,479
Speaker 1: it's sort of understandable because, um, in this time, you know,

1433
01:27:12,680 --> 01:27:17,280
Speaker 1: the self reliance of the people as being vastly eroded,

1434
01:27:18,120 --> 01:27:20,920
Speaker 1: people being forced into you know, cities, they've lost their

1435
01:27:20,960 --> 01:27:26,080
Speaker 1: livelihoods um, and they were there was a sort of

1436
01:27:26,280 --> 01:27:31,160
Speaker 1: developing reliance and the global economy. Whereaswold As she proposes

1437
01:27:31,200 --> 01:27:35,160
Speaker 1: that you know, India avoids economic dependence on external market

1438
01:27:35,280 --> 01:27:41,360
Speaker 1: forces that create these vulnerabilities and communities that end up, um,

1439
01:27:42,200 --> 01:27:45,479
Speaker 1: you know, really harming the members of that community, so

1440
01:27:45,680 --> 01:27:50,040
Speaker 1: that she's meant to avoid the unhealthy and wasteful environmental

1441
01:27:50,080 --> 01:27:57,519
Speaker 1: destructive transportation of goods um between communities, avoiding the excessive

1442
01:27:57,560 --> 01:28:02,000
Speaker 1: emissions that would cause um and promoting, of course, the

1443
01:28:02,000 --> 01:28:05,479
Speaker 1: development of a strong economic base to satisfy the needs

1444
01:28:05,720 --> 01:28:11,240
Speaker 1: of the community, to satisfy the UH local production consumption,

1445
01:28:12,160 --> 01:28:15,280
Speaker 1: so that she is kind of about both creating a

1446
01:28:15,320 --> 01:28:20,439
Speaker 1: self reliant India and also creating self reliant villages within India,

1447
01:28:20,560 --> 01:28:24,840
Speaker 1: so that each village is a microcosum of the greater India,

1448
01:28:25,840 --> 01:28:31,360
Speaker 1: a web of sort of a distributed, decentralized web of

1449
01:28:31,520 --> 01:28:37,160
Speaker 1: loosely interconnected communities. In a time where the British were

1450
01:28:37,160 --> 01:28:42,080
Speaker 1: promoting the centralized, industrialized, mechanized mode of production, Gandhy was

1451
01:28:42,120 --> 01:28:46,480
Speaker 1: turning to the principle of decentralized, home grown and handcrafted

1452
01:28:46,520 --> 01:28:52,000
Speaker 1: modes of production UH rather than mass production production by

1453
01:28:52,080 --> 01:28:55,320
Speaker 1: the masses. I think there was also a spiritual component

1454
01:28:55,439 --> 01:28:59,240
Speaker 1: of the idea of Swadeshi, because at the time Gandhy

1455
01:28:59,320 --> 01:29:03,000
Speaker 1: was not a fan of the idea that people were

1456
01:29:03,080 --> 01:29:07,960
Speaker 1: not using their hands to produce, the idea that, you know,

1457
01:29:08,680 --> 01:29:12,160
Speaker 1: everyone should be involved in some kind of um trade

1458
01:29:12,320 --> 01:29:15,559
Speaker 1: or skill of some kind that utilizes their hands because

1459
01:29:16,240 --> 01:29:18,800
Speaker 1: of you know, the whole spiritual component of using the

1460
01:29:18,880 --> 01:29:23,840
Speaker 1: body that you have fully and another aspect of the spirituality,

1461
01:29:23,960 --> 01:29:25,680
Speaker 1: so that she was of course the idea of this

1462
01:29:25,840 --> 01:29:30,519
Speaker 1: locally based community, enhancing a community spirit, community relationships, and

1463
01:29:30,720 --> 01:29:34,920
Speaker 1: community well being, an economy that actively encourages mutual aid,

1464
01:29:35,479 --> 01:29:43,080
Speaker 1: that encourages the principle of care between families, neighbors, animals, lands, forestry,

1465
01:29:43,240 --> 01:29:50,360
Speaker 1: natural resources for present and future generations. It's there confrontation

1466
01:29:51,360 --> 01:29:54,400
Speaker 1: of the driving force between mass production which Gandi so

1467
01:29:55,040 --> 01:29:59,320
Speaker 1: has this cult of the individual, where there must be

1468
01:30:00,360 --> 01:30:03,640
Speaker 1: to expansion of the economy of global scale uh and

1469
01:30:03,840 --> 01:30:06,639
Speaker 1: expand the consumption production of the sake of economic growth

1470
01:30:07,439 --> 01:30:11,600
Speaker 1: out of a desire for the individual's personal whims, for

1471
01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:22,080
Speaker 1: the desire for you know, personal and corporate profit. Another reason,

1472
01:30:22,200 --> 01:30:25,360
Speaker 1: of course, that Gandhi rallied against this idea of mass

1473
01:30:25,400 --> 01:30:28,879
Speaker 1: production and promoting in production for the masses by the masses,

1474
01:30:29,520 --> 01:30:32,479
Speaker 1: it's because mass production leads people leave in their villages,

1475
01:30:32,600 --> 01:30:35,360
Speaker 1: they land, their crafts and their homesteads to go work

1476
01:30:35,640 --> 01:30:39,200
Speaker 1: in factories where they became cogs in a machine, standing

1477
01:30:39,280 --> 01:30:42,400
Speaker 1: in a conveyor belt, living in enchanty towns and dependence

1478
01:30:42,439 --> 01:30:46,479
Speaker 1: upon the movesy of the bosses, and of course as

1479
01:30:46,840 --> 01:30:51,519
Speaker 1: those bosses gained access to more efficient technologies because they

1480
01:30:51,560 --> 01:30:54,759
Speaker 1: were constant in pursuit of greater productivity in this creative profit.

1481
01:30:55,439 --> 01:30:59,479
Speaker 1: The masters of this economy, you know, they want more

1482
01:30:59,560 --> 01:31:03,200
Speaker 1: efficient machines working faster, and so they want less people.

1483
01:31:03,360 --> 01:31:06,240
Speaker 1: We can loose machines, and so the result was that

1484
01:31:06,280 --> 01:31:08,560
Speaker 1: the people who have to move to these cities to

1485
01:31:08,640 --> 01:31:11,840
Speaker 1: working these factories we eventually thrown out when they were

1486
01:31:11,880 --> 01:31:16,680
Speaker 1: no longer considered useful and became and joining the millions

1487
01:31:17,520 --> 01:31:23,920
Speaker 1: of unemployed, you know, rootless, job less people in uh

1488
01:31:24,080 --> 01:31:30,360
Speaker 1: Indian society. Sweeter she instead encourages the idea that the

1489
01:31:30,439 --> 01:31:33,479
Speaker 1: machine sholl be something that subordinates the worker, but instead

1490
01:31:33,600 --> 01:31:36,679
Speaker 1: something that is subordinated to the worker, that it hasn't

1491
01:31:36,680 --> 01:31:40,759
Speaker 1: become the master, but instead it is mastered and allows

1492
01:31:40,880 --> 01:31:44,200
Speaker 1: us to orchestrate our own pace of you know, human activity.

1493
01:31:45,160 --> 01:31:49,400
Speaker 1: It's not that Sweeter Sweaters she is necessarily against automation,

1494
01:31:49,600 --> 01:31:54,479
Speaker 1: against technological development, but it's more so that it aims

1495
01:31:54,560 --> 01:32:01,240
Speaker 1: to circumvent the harms that could be called by such

1496
01:32:01,320 --> 01:32:04,840
Speaker 1: technology is being out of the control of the people

1497
01:32:04,920 --> 01:32:09,960
Speaker 1: themselves and in the control of the select private few.

1498
01:32:10,760 --> 01:32:12,519
Speaker 1: I thinks what that she has a sort of an

1499
01:32:12,560 --> 01:32:17,639
Speaker 1: element of glorification of the past. Um they weren't doing

1500
01:32:17,640 --> 01:32:22,960
Speaker 1: my research for this episode, I ended up looking into um.

1501
01:32:23,680 --> 01:32:27,280
Speaker 1: Of course, the writings of proponents is what a she um?

1502
01:32:27,600 --> 01:32:32,840
Speaker 1: And people discussing Andy's thoughts on the subject, and I'll

1503
01:32:32,880 --> 01:32:36,840
Speaker 1: just quote one particular passage, So what as she is

1504
01:32:36,960 --> 01:32:41,400
Speaker 1: the way to comprehensive peace, peace with oneself, peace between

1505
01:32:41,479 --> 01:32:45,599
Speaker 1: people's and peace with nature. The global economy drives people

1506
01:32:45,680 --> 01:32:50,360
Speaker 1: toward high performance, high achievement, and high ambition from materialistic success.

1507
01:32:51,040 --> 01:32:54,280
Speaker 1: This results in stress, loss of mening, loss of in

1508
01:32:54,360 --> 01:32:57,320
Speaker 1: a peace, loss of space for posonal family relationships, and

1509
01:32:57,400 --> 01:33:00,639
Speaker 1: loss of spiritual life. Gandhi realized and in the past

1510
01:33:01,080 --> 01:33:03,679
Speaker 1: life in India was not only prosperous but also conducive

1511
01:33:03,760 --> 01:33:07,519
Speaker 1: to philosophical and spiritual development, so that she, fora Gandhi,

1512
01:33:07,960 --> 01:33:13,240
Speaker 1: was a spiritual imperative. I think it's understandable that a

1513
01:33:13,600 --> 01:33:23,560
Speaker 1: decolonial project would attempt to develop a pride in the

1514
01:33:23,800 --> 01:33:27,160
Speaker 1: history of the people who have gone through so much

1515
01:33:27,960 --> 01:33:31,439
Speaker 1: um and you know their legacy and their traditions in

1516
01:33:31,560 --> 01:33:34,840
Speaker 1: their ideas. But I think it's a bit of a

1517
01:33:34,920 --> 01:33:43,519
Speaker 1: stretch to um glorify h India's past and and precluling

1518
01:33:43,520 --> 01:33:45,800
Speaker 1: your past in such a respect. I don't think any

1519
01:33:46,600 --> 01:33:51,680
Speaker 1: people's free cluling your past should be excessively glory glorified

1520
01:33:51,920 --> 01:34:02,479
Speaker 1: or um like mythologized, mythologized, yeah, romanticized, because I feel

1521
01:34:02,479 --> 01:34:06,839
Speaker 1: as though one that clouds our judgments UM and critical

1522
01:34:07,000 --> 01:34:10,080
Speaker 1: eye for the aspects of you know, past societies that

1523
01:34:10,240 --> 01:34:12,479
Speaker 1: do do it need to be challenged, do need to

1524
01:34:12,520 --> 01:34:15,879
Speaker 1: be changed um. I think that's part of my issues.

1525
01:34:15,880 --> 01:34:18,800
Speaker 1: So that she is this idea that you know, if

1526
01:34:18,920 --> 01:34:24,479
Speaker 1: things just go back to uh, these sorts of villages

1527
01:34:24,720 --> 01:34:28,320
Speaker 1: and village community, is that everything else would just be okay.

1528
01:34:28,360 --> 01:34:30,320
Speaker 1: But of course there were other issues that Inki was

1529
01:34:30,360 --> 01:34:34,640
Speaker 1: teaing with even Priortic colonization, you know, in terms of sexism,

1530
01:34:34,760 --> 01:34:39,280
Speaker 1: in terms of the control of the cast system and

1531
01:34:39,360 --> 01:34:45,000
Speaker 1: the higher casts UM, and the other aspects of Indian

1532
01:34:45,000 --> 01:34:50,920
Speaker 1: society that of course were made um more surveyor by

1533
01:34:51,000 --> 01:34:55,160
Speaker 1: British communism. Colorism, I think is one of those issues

1534
01:34:55,200 --> 01:34:58,639
Speaker 1: that of course existed Priortic colonization, but was made worse

1535
01:34:58,800 --> 01:35:02,840
Speaker 1: by the British and the presence in your subcontinent. But

1536
01:35:02,920 --> 01:35:07,200
Speaker 1: I think striking that balance of uh, cleaning, learning from

1537
01:35:07,320 --> 01:35:11,000
Speaker 1: respecting that um that prequeling the past, but also in

1538
01:35:11,080 --> 01:35:14,799
Speaker 1: our equal on our projects, not excessively romanticizing the past

1539
01:35:15,280 --> 01:35:20,120
Speaker 1: in an effort to progress towards the future these days,

1540
01:35:20,200 --> 01:35:22,479
Speaker 1: I believe SOWE actually is most known for its focus

1541
01:35:22,600 --> 01:35:27,600
Speaker 1: on protect protectionism. It's sustained foreign important investment. But it

1542
01:35:27,720 --> 01:35:31,439
Speaker 1: was of course a very wide spanning philosophy. It was

1543
01:35:32,200 --> 01:35:35,679
Speaker 1: a vision um and a philosophy of life that Gandhi

1544
01:35:35,760 --> 01:35:39,519
Speaker 1: held his entire life. That's I It's not something that

1545
01:35:39,560 --> 01:35:42,720
Speaker 1: I was familiar with prior to looking into it and

1546
01:35:42,880 --> 01:35:49,360
Speaker 1: my continued pursuit of decluding your perspectives and explorations of

1547
01:35:49,960 --> 01:35:54,160
Speaker 1: various post cluing projects and philosophies. But it's something that

1548
01:35:54,320 --> 01:35:59,400
Speaker 1: I've appreciated despite my criticisms or some aspects of it.

1549
01:36:00,320 --> 01:36:04,519
Speaker 1: Asked about all I have FIOL today. You can find

1550
01:36:04,600 --> 01:36:08,599
Speaker 1: me on YouTube at andreism, on Twitter dot com, slash

1551
01:36:08,680 --> 01:36:11,320
Speaker 1: and It's cool seeing true, and you could support me

1552
01:36:11,439 --> 01:36:30,639
Speaker 1: on Patreon dot com, slash sat Drew, You're welcome today

1553
01:36:30,680 --> 01:36:32,920
Speaker 1: could happen here a podcast that's being done for the

1554
01:36:32,960 --> 01:36:34,920
Speaker 1: first time and not the second time because we had

1555
01:36:34,960 --> 01:36:38,599
Speaker 1: bike problems. We did not just record a very funny

1556
01:36:38,640 --> 01:36:41,559
Speaker 1: intro that is now completely lost. Yeah, you'll you'll you'll

1557
01:36:41,600 --> 01:36:43,320
Speaker 1: never hear it. You'll you'll never you ever know what

1558
01:36:43,439 --> 01:36:50,000
Speaker 1: great fun we had. The joy was in the creation.

1559
01:36:50,080 --> 01:36:54,120
Speaker 1: They're not not in the sharing. Yeah, process, not an

1560
01:36:54,160 --> 01:36:58,519
Speaker 1: event structure, etcetera, etcetera. So I'm I'm mia, I'm a

1561
01:36:58,680 --> 01:37:02,640
Speaker 1: I'm gonna doing this episode. Also Garrison is here Hello, hi,

1562
01:37:02,760 --> 01:37:06,680
Speaker 1: and also James, Hi, I'm recording. So we're good now.

1563
01:37:08,720 --> 01:37:12,160
Speaker 1: Yet the good news is stunning Lee, as as as

1564
01:37:12,240 --> 01:37:14,120
Speaker 1: as much as it seems we are now more prepared

1565
01:37:14,160 --> 01:37:18,360
Speaker 1: to record this episode. I when we're last time. So yeah,

1566
01:37:18,400 --> 01:37:19,960
Speaker 1: well what are we? What are we? What are we

1567
01:37:20,040 --> 01:37:22,240
Speaker 1: talking about? We we we are We are talking about

1568
01:37:22,479 --> 01:37:25,960
Speaker 1: the age of the gender bureaucrat. So as as people

1569
01:37:26,000 --> 01:37:28,320
Speaker 1: are probably aware, there is a raft of anti trans

1570
01:37:28,400 --> 01:37:31,599
Speaker 1: bill sweeping through state legislatures um. The latest of these

1571
01:37:31,640 --> 01:37:33,560
Speaker 1: bills to pass as a time of recording is the

1572
01:37:33,600 --> 01:37:35,960
Speaker 1: bill in Utah which is banned miners from getting gender

1573
01:37:36,000 --> 01:37:39,280
Speaker 1: affirming care like hormone therapy, hormone blockers, and any kind

1574
01:37:39,280 --> 01:37:42,080
Speaker 1: of gender affirming surgery for anyone who's not already receiving them.

1575
01:37:42,960 --> 01:37:46,400
Speaker 1: Does does the Utah one also banned like therapy like

1576
01:37:47,080 --> 01:37:51,080
Speaker 1: talk therapy. No, but they're there, So on the one hand,

1577
01:37:51,120 --> 01:37:52,680
Speaker 1: doesn't band talk therapy. On the other hand, there's a

1578
01:37:52,680 --> 01:37:55,160
Speaker 1: provision in there that I think might also suggest that

1579
01:37:55,240 --> 01:38:00,840
Speaker 1: people do conversion therapy. So that's great. Um it fucking sucks.

1580
01:38:00,960 --> 01:38:04,599
Speaker 1: Ass uh yeah, kid, kids are going to die because

1581
01:38:04,640 --> 01:38:07,200
Speaker 1: of this bill. The people who are writing and signing

1582
01:38:07,240 --> 01:38:09,240
Speaker 1: these bills know that kids are going to die. We

1583
01:38:09,360 --> 01:38:12,000
Speaker 1: know this because Utah's Governor, Spencer Cox, who is the

1584
01:38:12,040 --> 01:38:15,080
Speaker 1: guy who signed the bill, vetoed an earlier ban on

1585
01:38:15,160 --> 01:38:18,760
Speaker 1: trans athletes participating in school sports, specifically signing the risk

1586
01:38:18,800 --> 01:38:21,519
Speaker 1: of suicide. So she knows this is going to kill kids.

1587
01:38:21,560 --> 01:38:24,760
Speaker 1: He signs us anyways, and we are now living in

1588
01:38:24,920 --> 01:38:27,400
Speaker 1: what I call the age of the gender bearacrat um.

1589
01:38:27,720 --> 01:38:30,280
Speaker 1: We we're gonna spend We're gonna have another episode later

1590
01:38:30,400 --> 01:38:32,400
Speaker 1: on where we spend a lot of time going through

1591
01:38:32,479 --> 01:38:35,680
Speaker 1: all of the individual bills and the stuff Trump has

1592
01:38:35,680 --> 01:38:40,040
Speaker 1: been saying about this, because Jesus Christ, pretty pretty pretty

1593
01:38:40,040 --> 01:38:43,200
Speaker 1: grim stuff that they're I mean, on the one hand,

1594
01:38:43,840 --> 01:38:46,519
Speaker 1: making making trans people out to be the boogeyman did

1595
01:38:46,560 --> 01:38:49,000
Speaker 1: not work in their favor greatly in the mid terms,

1596
01:38:49,720 --> 01:38:52,080
Speaker 1: but it seems like they're not trying to. They're not

1597
01:38:52,160 --> 01:38:55,920
Speaker 1: trying to change their tactics here. They are still going

1598
01:38:55,960 --> 01:38:58,639
Speaker 1: all in based on Trump's speech from a few days ago,

1599
01:38:58,800 --> 01:39:02,639
Speaker 1: the of of using the using the transgender menace as

1600
01:39:02,720 --> 01:39:05,560
Speaker 1: the as the greatest threat to America and the and

1601
01:39:05,640 --> 01:39:08,200
Speaker 1: the and the nuclear family. So we'll see how that

1602
01:39:08,320 --> 01:39:11,519
Speaker 1: goes for them, like electorally. But it's pretty bad rhetoric

1603
01:39:11,600 --> 01:39:15,080
Speaker 1: to see flying around. I think they it does really

1604
01:39:15,120 --> 01:39:17,640
Speaker 1: well with the people who who allowed and like, like

1605
01:39:18,000 --> 01:39:20,639
Speaker 1: you often see this in like primaries, right, like people

1606
01:39:20,680 --> 01:39:23,200
Speaker 1: pushed to the limits of their party, because that plays

1607
01:39:23,240 --> 01:39:25,120
Speaker 1: well with the most politicized people. And for sure, if

1608
01:39:25,160 --> 01:39:27,840
Speaker 1: you're going to a Trump rally, like three years after

1609
01:39:27,960 --> 01:39:31,880
Speaker 1: he got kicked out, yeah, you are also a bigot. Yeah.

1610
01:39:34,000 --> 01:39:36,599
Speaker 1: But before we do that, I I want to before

1611
01:39:36,640 --> 01:39:38,760
Speaker 1: we actually really do an EPSO on this, I want

1612
01:39:38,800 --> 01:39:40,840
Speaker 1: to take a look at the sort of bureaucratic grounding

1613
01:39:40,880 --> 01:39:43,479
Speaker 1: for this entire thing. And to do that we need

1614
01:39:43,520 --> 01:39:46,440
Speaker 1: to look up gender bureaucrats and the American gender bureaucracy.

1615
01:39:47,360 --> 01:39:49,200
Speaker 1: So I'm going to cite my sources a bit and

1616
01:39:49,320 --> 01:39:52,719
Speaker 1: say that I stole this from a incredibly unlikely source,

1617
01:39:52,800 --> 01:39:56,360
Speaker 1: which is the Bowist Review. Of Shrek to what stop?

1618
01:40:00,000 --> 01:40:03,320
Speaker 1: Have a speak those words again? This is the Mauice

1619
01:40:03,400 --> 01:40:06,040
Speaker 1: Review of Strict two is one of the three great

1620
01:40:06,120 --> 01:40:09,360
Speaker 1: sort of text of American maoism. There's this one, there's

1621
01:40:09,360 --> 01:40:12,320
Speaker 1: Torgeable Attractive People's War the Florida Everglades, and then there's

1622
01:40:12,360 --> 01:40:15,080
Speaker 1: that time the the RCP got into a fight with

1623
01:40:15,120 --> 01:40:18,000
Speaker 1: the PSL and they're both trying to grab each other's signs. Amazing,

1624
01:40:18,200 --> 01:40:22,080
Speaker 1: amazing stuff. But unfortunately, you know, having having come up

1625
01:40:22,160 --> 01:40:26,160
Speaker 1: with the term gender bureaucrat, which is incredibly useful their maoists,

1626
01:40:26,200 --> 01:40:31,080
Speaker 1: so that they're constitutionally and politically just unable to understand

1627
01:40:31,160 --> 01:40:34,120
Speaker 1: what a bureaucrat is. So I have now stolen this

1628
01:40:34,320 --> 01:40:38,920
Speaker 1: term and I'm using it for other purposes reappropriate. No,

1629
01:40:39,080 --> 01:40:41,880
Speaker 1: it's stealing their mauists. It's it's never wrong to steal

1630
01:40:41,920 --> 01:40:47,960
Speaker 1: from maoists. Okay, fine, So all right, it's get getting

1631
01:40:48,000 --> 01:40:50,680
Speaker 1: back sort of serious stuff to understand what this is.

1632
01:40:50,840 --> 01:40:52,799
Speaker 1: I want to talk about sort of the term assigned

1633
01:40:52,840 --> 01:40:55,640
Speaker 1: gender at birth. Um. This used to be a like,

1634
01:40:55,720 --> 01:40:58,479
Speaker 1: I used to be fairly common kind of in in

1635
01:40:58,800 --> 01:41:01,439
Speaker 1: in circles to like refer to people is like a

1636
01:41:01,600 --> 01:41:03,599
Speaker 1: mab or a FABS like a side mail at Earth

1637
01:41:03,640 --> 01:41:06,280
Speaker 1: or assigned female at Earth. And it's a it kind

1638
01:41:06,320 --> 01:41:09,120
Speaker 1: of sucks as the term. It's been replaced by other stuff.

1639
01:41:09,960 --> 01:41:14,439
Speaker 1: But I think there's something important here, which is I

1640
01:41:14,560 --> 01:41:16,400
Speaker 1: want to go back and look at the assigned part,

1641
01:41:17,439 --> 01:41:19,080
Speaker 1: and I want to I want to look at the

1642
01:41:19,120 --> 01:41:21,360
Speaker 1: cecifically the part about the gender being assigned, because I

1643
01:41:21,360 --> 01:41:23,280
Speaker 1: think there's something that gets lost in sort of popular

1644
01:41:23,320 --> 01:41:26,240
Speaker 1: discussions of this, which is that when when people think

1645
01:41:26,280 --> 01:41:28,720
Speaker 1: about like the term like the assignment of gender, right,

1646
01:41:28,760 --> 01:41:30,840
Speaker 1: they think about it as something that's created socially. Right.

1647
01:41:30,880 --> 01:41:33,760
Speaker 1: They think about it as you know, people being like

1648
01:41:33,920 --> 01:41:36,080
Speaker 1: pressured to perform one kind of gender or another by

1649
01:41:36,080 --> 01:41:38,479
Speaker 1: the people around them, sort of by their families, by

1650
01:41:38,560 --> 01:41:40,960
Speaker 1: just like people walking down the street. And this is

1651
01:41:41,000 --> 01:41:44,559
Speaker 1: all true, but there's also something else going on here.

1652
01:41:44,560 --> 01:41:47,360
Speaker 1: And that's something else going on here is we need

1653
01:41:47,439 --> 01:41:50,799
Speaker 1: to ask ourselves when we talk about someone's gender being assigned,

1654
01:41:51,000 --> 01:41:54,200
Speaker 1: who is it being assigned by? Because this is an

1655
01:41:54,240 --> 01:41:58,360
Speaker 1: actual specific person, right, The person who actually assigns your

1656
01:41:58,400 --> 01:42:00,799
Speaker 1: gender is a doctor or sometimes a nurse or a midwife.

1657
01:42:01,439 --> 01:42:05,240
Speaker 1: And this person is the first gender bureaucrat they're the

1658
01:42:05,240 --> 01:42:07,320
Speaker 1: first gender bereacraft because they are the person who sits

1659
01:42:07,360 --> 01:42:12,960
Speaker 1: down and puts down what your gender is on a form. Now, Okay,

1660
01:42:14,000 --> 01:42:17,799
Speaker 1: you may be asking yourself, right, mio, why should anyone

1661
01:42:17,920 --> 01:42:20,920
Speaker 1: care that your gender is now on a piece of paper? Well,

1662
01:42:20,960 --> 01:42:25,400
Speaker 1: because and also maybe like they're they're also mainly at

1663
01:42:25,439 --> 01:42:28,080
Speaker 1: least now in like a in like a medical scientific sense,

1664
01:42:28,120 --> 01:42:31,559
Speaker 1: it's mainly like, oh, what parts do you have? Um,

1665
01:42:31,760 --> 01:42:35,360
Speaker 1: and then using those parts as as a carryover for

1666
01:42:35,560 --> 01:42:39,080
Speaker 1: gender as it's been modeled after ever since we stopped

1667
01:42:39,160 --> 01:42:43,400
Speaker 1: dressing boys and girls and dresses and all the same clothing. Yeah,

1668
01:42:43,520 --> 01:42:46,360
Speaker 1: and and well we'll get into sort of like how

1669
01:42:46,479 --> 01:42:49,040
Speaker 1: this has sort of changed over time. But okay, so

1670
01:42:49,120 --> 01:42:51,439
Speaker 1: to understand why this actually matters, I think what we

1671
01:42:51,520 --> 01:42:54,840
Speaker 1: need to talk about what bureaucracy actually is, because this

1672
01:42:55,000 --> 01:42:56,880
Speaker 1: is a thing that used to be fairly common talk

1673
01:42:56,880 --> 01:42:58,639
Speaker 1: about on the left and then people have stopped doing

1674
01:42:58,800 --> 01:43:02,439
Speaker 1: over the past maybe like half decade. The anthropologist David

1675
01:43:02,479 --> 01:43:05,720
Speaker 1: Graeber wrote extensively about bureaucracy throughout his career. Probably his

1676
01:43:05,800 --> 01:43:07,880
Speaker 1: most famous book is one of his later worst, called

1677
01:43:07,920 --> 01:43:10,280
Speaker 1: Bullshit Jobs. But I want to go back to an

1678
01:43:10,320 --> 01:43:12,839
Speaker 1: earlier thing that he wrote called The Utopia of Rules.

1679
01:43:13,439 --> 01:43:15,040
Speaker 1: I'm gonna, I'm gonna. I'm gonna read a little bit

1680
01:43:15,040 --> 01:43:18,719
Speaker 1: of one of the first sections of it. Bureaucratic knowledge

1681
01:43:18,800 --> 01:43:23,960
Speaker 1: is all about schematization. In practice, bureaucratic procedure invariably means

1682
01:43:24,040 --> 01:43:27,599
Speaker 1: ignoring all the subtleties of real life existence and reducing

1683
01:43:27,720 --> 01:43:32,200
Speaker 1: everything to preconceive mechanical or statistical formula. Whether it's a

1684
01:43:32,280 --> 01:43:35,679
Speaker 1: matter of forms, rule statistics, or questionnaires, it is always

1685
01:43:35,720 --> 01:43:39,320
Speaker 1: a matter of simplification. Typically, it's not very different from

1686
01:43:39,320 --> 01:43:41,040
Speaker 1: the boss who walks into the kitchen to make an

1687
01:43:41,120 --> 01:43:44,400
Speaker 1: arbitrary snap pocsition as to what went wrong. In either case,

1688
01:43:45,000 --> 01:43:47,559
Speaker 1: it is a matter of applying very simple, pre existing

1689
01:43:47,600 --> 01:43:52,800
Speaker 1: templates to complex and often ambiguous situations. The result often

1690
01:43:52,920 --> 01:43:56,000
Speaker 1: leaves those forced to deal with bureaucratic administration with the

1691
01:43:56,040 --> 01:43:58,920
Speaker 1: impression that they are dealing with people who have, for

1692
01:43:59,040 --> 01:44:01,200
Speaker 1: some arbitrary reason, decided to put on a set of

1693
01:44:01,240 --> 01:44:03,240
Speaker 1: glasses that only allows them to see two percent of

1694
01:44:03,280 --> 01:44:05,960
Speaker 1: what's in front of them. So, you know, we we

1695
01:44:06,160 --> 01:44:10,360
Speaker 1: can see some of the the core aspects of bureaucracy here, right.

1696
01:44:10,560 --> 01:44:14,519
Speaker 1: Bureaucracy inherently is an act of simplification. Um. Because of

1697
01:44:14,560 --> 01:44:16,920
Speaker 1: sort of the tech like literally the technical systems of

1698
01:44:16,960 --> 01:44:19,680
Speaker 1: what a bureaucracy is, and because of how it how

1699
01:44:19,720 --> 01:44:22,479
Speaker 1: it stores information, how it bows information around, it can

1700
01:44:22,560 --> 01:44:25,800
Speaker 1: only see the world in incredibly sort of simplified terms. Yeah,

1701
01:44:25,920 --> 01:44:28,679
Speaker 1: it has to like abstract these things that make assumption

1702
01:44:28,720 --> 01:44:30,920
Speaker 1: that's based off those abstractions in order to have any

1703
01:44:31,000 --> 01:44:35,400
Speaker 1: type of functionality. Yeah, so so great. Grebor later says

1704
01:44:35,520 --> 01:44:37,760
Speaker 1: that like this, you know, Okay, on the one hand,

1705
01:44:37,840 --> 01:44:41,040
Speaker 1: like the sort of simplification and model making that goes

1706
01:44:41,080 --> 01:44:43,360
Speaker 1: on into bureaucracy can be really really frustrating with you

1707
01:44:43,439 --> 01:44:44,920
Speaker 1: have to interact with it. But on the other hand,

1708
01:44:45,200 --> 01:44:48,479
Speaker 1: you know, so the reduction of the complex to the simple,

1709
01:44:48,640 --> 01:44:52,519
Speaker 1: it's not just you know, a thing that's inherently evil

1710
01:44:52,600 --> 01:44:54,640
Speaker 1: in its in and of itself, it's the basis of

1711
01:44:54,720 --> 01:44:58,080
Speaker 1: all thoughts because you know, like we we we actually

1712
01:44:58,200 --> 01:45:00,400
Speaker 1: can't and like in and of ourselves s us the

1713
01:45:00,479 --> 01:45:02,920
Speaker 1: world by immediately holding in our minds all of the

1714
01:45:03,000 --> 01:45:04,840
Speaker 1: information at one time, right, the way we understand the

1715
01:45:04,880 --> 01:45:08,200
Speaker 1: world as simplications and models. Yeah, and we we it's

1716
01:45:08,240 --> 01:45:12,800
Speaker 1: a pattern recognition, recreating recursive spot loops that give us

1717
01:45:12,920 --> 01:45:15,439
Speaker 1: the very concept of meaning, and like that's how we

1718
01:45:15,560 --> 01:45:20,760
Speaker 1: know what words are. Yeah, and so true, you know,

1719
01:45:21,120 --> 01:45:23,280
Speaker 1: you can you can, you can look it's it's also

1720
01:45:23,360 --> 01:45:25,320
Speaker 1: possible to take a lot of data and make nonsense

1721
01:45:25,400 --> 01:45:27,040
Speaker 1: out of it. And this is this is this is

1722
01:45:27,040 --> 01:45:34,479
Speaker 1: a field called economics market Yeah but yeah, you know, okay,

1723
01:45:34,560 --> 01:45:37,000
Speaker 1: so it's it's this is also the basis of all

1724
01:45:37,040 --> 01:45:39,639
Speaker 1: social theory, right, Like, like social theory is about taking

1725
01:45:39,680 --> 01:45:43,320
Speaker 1: a bunch of incredibly complicated like in messy relationships and

1726
01:45:43,400 --> 01:45:46,360
Speaker 1: just statistical stuff and just the noise of people doing

1727
01:45:46,640 --> 01:45:48,920
Speaker 1: doing things in everyday lives and trying to establish sort

1728
01:45:48,960 --> 01:45:52,280
Speaker 1: of like ways of understanding them. And you know, this

1729
01:45:52,439 --> 01:45:54,479
Speaker 1: in some sense is a kind of violence, right It's

1730
01:45:54,520 --> 01:45:58,160
Speaker 1: it's a violence of simplification. But on the other hand,

1731
01:45:58,240 --> 01:46:00,880
Speaker 1: you know, the violence you're during true reality here bears

1732
01:46:00,920 --> 01:46:03,519
Speaker 1: more resemble to sort of like Bacoonian's creative destruction. Right

1733
01:46:03,560 --> 01:46:06,080
Speaker 1: you're you know, you're imposing a kind of violence on reality,

1734
01:46:06,960 --> 01:46:09,280
Speaker 1: you know, in in simplifying and destroying a bunch of

1735
01:46:09,320 --> 01:46:11,160
Speaker 1: aspects of it so you can understand just like one

1736
01:46:11,200 --> 01:46:13,120
Speaker 1: part of it at a time. But you know, this.

1737
01:46:13,320 --> 01:46:14,840
Speaker 1: This is a useful thing, right, It's how we think

1738
01:46:15,000 --> 01:46:18,160
Speaker 1: like we we literally couldn't do anything without it. But

1739
01:46:18,960 --> 01:46:22,360
Speaker 1: as Graver puts it, the problem of right The problems

1740
01:46:22,360 --> 01:46:26,040
Speaker 1: arise at the moment that violence is no longer metaphorical. Here,

1741
01:46:26,280 --> 01:46:29,559
Speaker 1: let me turn from imaginary cops to real ones. Jim Cooper,

1742
01:46:29,720 --> 01:46:33,240
Speaker 1: a former l a p D officer turned sociologist, has

1743
01:46:33,320 --> 01:46:35,800
Speaker 1: observed at the overwhelming majority of those who end up

1744
01:46:35,840 --> 01:46:38,519
Speaker 1: getting beaten or otherwise brutalized by police turned out to

1745
01:46:38,520 --> 01:46:41,719
Speaker 1: be innocent of any crime. Cops don't beat up burglars,

1746
01:46:41,800 --> 01:46:45,200
Speaker 1: he writes. The reason, he explained, is simple. The one

1747
01:46:45,320 --> 01:46:48,719
Speaker 1: thing most guaranteed to provoke a violent reaction from police

1748
01:46:48,800 --> 01:46:51,160
Speaker 1: is a challenge to their right to As he puts it,

1749
01:46:51,439 --> 01:46:55,479
Speaker 1: defined the situation. That is to say, yeah, that that

1750
01:46:55,760 --> 01:47:00,240
Speaker 1: that perfectly describes any any physical interaction with police. You know,

1751
01:47:00,439 --> 01:47:02,320
Speaker 1: this is one of the things I like about Greater

1752
01:47:02,439 --> 01:47:03,560
Speaker 1: because I mean, this is this is something that I

1753
01:47:03,640 --> 01:47:05,559
Speaker 1: noticed and I was in academia, is it is very

1754
01:47:05,720 --> 01:47:08,360
Speaker 1: very easy to tell who, like when you're reading a

1755
01:47:08,439 --> 01:47:10,920
Speaker 1: theorist social theorist talking about stuff like who has been

1756
01:47:10,960 --> 01:47:17,839
Speaker 1: to your gas before it, who hasn't. Yeah, I'm always

1757
01:47:17,880 --> 01:47:20,080
Speaker 1: reminded when we talk about like academics who have a

1758
01:47:20,120 --> 01:47:23,880
Speaker 1: real life of that picture of Edward said throwing stones. Yeah,

1759
01:47:25,840 --> 01:47:30,200
Speaker 1: most based academic thing anyone his death yea. And like graver, Graver,

1760
01:47:30,320 --> 01:47:31,680
Speaker 1: I think, I think it's been to your gas on

1761
01:47:31,760 --> 01:47:35,200
Speaker 1: five continents or something like that, Like he's gotten around,

1762
01:47:35,320 --> 01:47:39,160
Speaker 1: he's he's on a lot of stuff. Yeah, it is.

1763
01:47:39,240 --> 01:47:42,120
Speaker 1: It is always nice whenever you can whenever these types

1764
01:47:42,160 --> 01:47:45,000
Speaker 1: of theorists who like, you know, they often will philosophize

1765
01:47:45,040 --> 01:47:46,920
Speaker 1: about like the nature of power, in the nature of

1766
01:47:47,000 --> 01:47:48,880
Speaker 1: the state, and sometimes it can get a little bit

1767
01:47:48,920 --> 01:47:52,080
Speaker 1: wishy washy, and it's nice when there's people who do that. Also,

1768
01:47:52,320 --> 01:47:55,240
Speaker 1: you know, like the material like the material reality of

1769
01:47:55,400 --> 01:48:00,599
Speaker 1: like power and how that yeah like how how how

1770
01:48:00,720 --> 01:48:03,320
Speaker 1: like the how like the philosophy of power transfers over

1771
01:48:03,400 --> 01:48:06,479
Speaker 1: to street politics is always always an interesting difference to

1772
01:48:06,840 --> 01:48:12,400
Speaker 1: to compare compare various theory too. In I was teaching

1773
01:48:12,439 --> 01:48:14,680
Speaker 1: a world history course and obviously it's remote because of

1774
01:48:14,760 --> 01:48:18,519
Speaker 1: the pandemic, right, um, so, like we were just logging

1775
01:48:18,520 --> 01:48:20,800
Speaker 1: in the morning and like fully aware that I had

1776
01:48:20,880 --> 01:48:23,559
Speaker 1: seen and been tear gassed with some of my students

1777
01:48:23,640 --> 01:48:26,160
Speaker 1: a night before and then just discussed like how the

1778
01:48:26,200 --> 01:48:28,479
Speaker 1: state has a monopoly on violence. People are get o

1779
01:48:28,560 --> 01:48:31,240
Speaker 1: the fucking lines up. Looks like you've got a massive

1780
01:48:31,320 --> 01:48:35,760
Speaker 1: bruise again. Yeah, it was. It was very instructive and

1781
01:48:35,840 --> 01:48:39,439
Speaker 1: everyone should do it in their history classes. Yeah, okay,

1782
01:48:39,479 --> 01:48:42,080
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna keep reading from this. Cool, because there's

1783
01:48:42,080 --> 01:48:43,160
Speaker 1: a couple of more things I want. I want to

1784
01:48:43,200 --> 01:48:45,479
Speaker 1: get out of this. So okay. So you know he's

1785
01:48:45,479 --> 01:48:47,559
Speaker 1: talking about how, like you, you get a violent reaction

1786
01:48:47,600 --> 01:48:51,479
Speaker 1: from challenging the right to define the situation. That is,

1787
01:48:51,600 --> 01:48:54,519
Speaker 1: to say, no, this isn't a possible crime situation. This

1788
01:48:54,640 --> 01:48:57,559
Speaker 1: is a citizen who pays your salary walking his dog situation.

1789
01:48:57,640 --> 01:49:01,120
Speaker 1: So shove off. Let alone the in varyably disastrous. Wait,

1790
01:49:01,200 --> 01:49:03,639
Speaker 1: why are you handcuffing that guy? He didn't do anything.

1791
01:49:04,320 --> 01:49:07,880
Speaker 1: It's talking back above all that inspires beat downs and

1792
01:49:07,960 --> 01:49:13,240
Speaker 1: means challenging whatever administrative rubric and orderly a disorderly crowd,

1793
01:49:13,360 --> 01:49:17,000
Speaker 1: a properly or improperly registered vehicle has been applied by

1794
01:49:17,040 --> 01:49:21,680
Speaker 1: the officers discretionary judgments. The police truncheon is precisely the

1795
01:49:21,840 --> 01:49:25,960
Speaker 1: point where the state's bureaucratic imperative for imposing simple administrative

1796
01:49:26,000 --> 01:49:30,080
Speaker 1: schema and it's monopoly on coercive force come together. It

1797
01:49:30,200 --> 01:49:34,200
Speaker 1: only makes sense then that bureaucratic violence should consist first

1798
01:49:34,240 --> 01:49:38,160
Speaker 1: and foremost on attacks on those who insists on alternative

1799
01:49:38,200 --> 01:49:41,920
Speaker 1: schemas or interpretations. At the same time, if one accepts

1800
01:49:42,040 --> 01:49:45,719
Speaker 1: John Page's famous definition of mature intelligence is the ability

1801
01:49:45,760 --> 01:49:50,240
Speaker 1: to coordinate between multiple perspectives or multiple or possible perspectives,

1802
01:49:50,840 --> 01:49:54,080
Speaker 1: one can see here precisely how bureaucratic power, at the

1803
01:49:54,120 --> 01:49:57,360
Speaker 1: moment it turns to violence, becomes literally a form of

1804
01:49:57,439 --> 01:50:02,360
Speaker 1: infantile stupidity. Yeah, it's it is this weird, like childlike

1805
01:50:02,479 --> 01:50:05,880
Speaker 1: sense that is that is an interesting combination of thoughts.

1806
01:50:07,120 --> 01:50:11,760
Speaker 1: That's a fantastic I love it. I like literally read

1807
01:50:11,840 --> 01:50:13,720
Speaker 1: reading this book is like one of the things that

1808
01:50:14,040 --> 01:50:18,320
Speaker 1: really sort of like committed me to anarchism because you know,

1809
01:50:18,479 --> 01:50:21,760
Speaker 1: like it's it's a it's a book that actually takes

1810
01:50:21,880 --> 01:50:24,800
Speaker 1: violence seriously, and you know, while talking about bureaucracy was

1811
01:50:24,880 --> 01:50:27,320
Speaker 1: something that really doesn't I don't know, and it's a

1812
01:50:27,360 --> 01:50:29,080
Speaker 1: good critique and we kind of have lost it over

1813
01:50:29,160 --> 01:50:31,719
Speaker 1: the years. I feel like we've gotten into arguments about

1814
01:50:31,800 --> 01:50:35,120
Speaker 1: this sort of thing when discussing the usefulness of like

1815
01:50:35,280 --> 01:50:39,000
Speaker 1: a Fuco's theories of power and like and like how

1816
01:50:39,040 --> 01:50:42,160
Speaker 1: power functions, You've definitely brought up this passage before talking

1817
01:50:42,240 --> 01:50:45,120
Speaker 1: about how the extent of that is always is always

1818
01:50:45,160 --> 01:50:49,479
Speaker 1: measured by where the truncheon is hitting on, like the

1819
01:50:49,600 --> 01:50:53,280
Speaker 1: actual street level. Yeah, but you know, okay, Graber isn't

1820
01:50:53,320 --> 01:50:56,200
Speaker 1: writing about gender here really, right, He's he's mostly writing

1821
01:50:56,240 --> 01:50:58,360
Speaker 1: about sort of direct police violence. Although I mean it

1822
01:50:58,640 --> 01:51:00,400
Speaker 1: is worth noting that, like all the stuff that writing

1823
01:51:00,479 --> 01:51:03,559
Speaker 1: is informed by sort of like like by by actually

1824
01:51:03,560 --> 01:51:06,439
Speaker 1: specifically by by by actual critical race theory and by

1825
01:51:07,080 --> 01:51:10,960
Speaker 1: sort of like uh like femder standpoints theory stuff. Um,

1826
01:51:11,760 --> 01:51:13,960
Speaker 1: but you know, okay, if if if you, if you,

1827
01:51:14,040 --> 01:51:17,160
Speaker 1: if you look back at this right and you look

1828
01:51:17,200 --> 01:51:20,720
Speaker 1: back at sort of you know, the point at which

1829
01:51:20,760 --> 01:51:25,200
Speaker 1: the state's bureaucratic impetue, imperative for imposing simple administrative schemes,

1830
01:51:25,280 --> 01:51:27,439
Speaker 1: and the monopoly and force come together or specifically the

1831
01:51:27,520 --> 01:51:30,559
Speaker 1: parts that are about right, Like, the way you get

1832
01:51:30,600 --> 01:51:34,320
Speaker 1: a violent reaction is by being something that being something

1833
01:51:34,400 --> 01:51:38,720
Speaker 1: that a bereacrat thinks you're not. Yeah, that is it's

1834
01:51:38,800 --> 01:51:42,719
Speaker 1: challenging their their their version of reality and the challenge

1835
01:51:42,720 --> 01:51:47,439
Speaker 1: it's challenging the validity of their perception of reality. Yeah,

1836
01:51:47,520 --> 01:51:49,679
Speaker 1: and you know, and if you think about this about

1837
01:51:49,680 --> 01:51:54,200
Speaker 1: five seconds, if you're a transperson, that's not good because someone,

1838
01:51:54,360 --> 01:51:57,519
Speaker 1: a bureaucrat, has already assigned you a gender at birth,

1839
01:51:58,080 --> 01:52:00,800
Speaker 1: and if you're not that gender, things are going to

1840
01:52:00,880 --> 01:52:02,880
Speaker 1: get really bad really quickly. Well, do you know what

1841
01:52:03,160 --> 01:52:06,439
Speaker 1: bureaucracies are actually worthwhile and things that you should definitely

1842
01:52:07,040 --> 01:52:10,840
Speaker 1: consider greatly is all of the biaucracies that support the

1843
01:52:10,880 --> 01:52:14,920
Speaker 1: products and services that that funded this podcast. Well, I

1844
01:52:15,040 --> 01:52:17,960
Speaker 1: hope you enjoy your your your your five new bars

1845
01:52:18,000 --> 01:52:21,080
Speaker 1: of gold. Thank you for supporting the show. Um, we

1846
01:52:21,200 --> 01:52:25,280
Speaker 1: are back. Uh, let's talk about gender and the bureaucracy

1847
01:52:25,400 --> 01:52:29,479
Speaker 1: that seeks to contain it violence. So you know, if

1848
01:52:29,600 --> 01:52:33,120
Speaker 1: if if if you are, for example, intersects, the point

1849
01:52:33,200 --> 01:52:36,720
Speaker 1: at which the state's bureaucratic imperative for imposing simple administrative

1850
01:52:36,760 --> 01:52:39,400
Speaker 1: schema and it's monopoly on course if force comes together,

1851
01:52:40,080 --> 01:52:43,680
Speaker 1: is on the operating table of the hospital where you're born. Um,

1852
01:52:44,200 --> 01:52:47,240
Speaker 1: you know, first you a doctor assigns you a fucking gender,

1853
01:52:47,600 --> 01:52:49,560
Speaker 1: which is never intersects by the way, the doctor just

1854
01:52:49,640 --> 01:52:51,640
Speaker 1: decides whether you're male or female, and then you know,

1855
01:52:51,760 --> 01:52:55,439
Speaker 1: puts that gender und your birth certificate. Um, it's technically

1856
01:52:55,520 --> 01:52:57,839
Speaker 1: possible in some places to get it changed to intersect

1857
01:52:57,920 --> 01:52:59,879
Speaker 1: later in life. But when I say it's technically possible,

1858
01:53:01,000 --> 01:53:02,760
Speaker 1: I there might even want people who've done it. The

1859
01:53:02,800 --> 01:53:05,280
Speaker 1: first person who we know ever change their gender to

1860
01:53:05,360 --> 01:53:11,479
Speaker 1: intersect did it in TV. So yeah, I'm sure there

1861
01:53:11,560 --> 01:53:17,000
Speaker 1: were I mean, pre bureauqucy indigenous societies. I know that. Yeah,

1862
01:53:17,000 --> 01:53:18,439
Speaker 1: but this is this yeah, this is yeah, I mean

1863
01:53:18,520 --> 01:53:21,639
Speaker 1: like yeah, like and and this is like the way

1864
01:53:21,760 --> 01:53:25,479
Speaker 1: that like we treat intersect people also has gotten worse.

1865
01:53:27,600 --> 01:53:29,479
Speaker 1: Like yeah, and we're gonna get into this, but you

1866
01:53:29,560 --> 01:53:31,560
Speaker 1: but it's like it's like, you know, this is a

1867
01:53:31,720 --> 01:53:35,559
Speaker 1: very like it's a very obvious thing where there's clearly

1868
01:53:35,600 --> 01:53:39,040
Speaker 1: more than two genders, and how how society reacts to that,

1869
01:53:39,200 --> 01:53:42,639
Speaker 1: I think says you know, A, it's it's an enormous

1870
01:53:42,680 --> 01:53:46,559
Speaker 1: sort of like it's something enormously impact intersect people, right,

1871
01:53:46,640 --> 01:53:49,600
Speaker 1: like you know, you have like an incredible amount of

1872
01:53:49,640 --> 01:53:54,160
Speaker 1: violence that is flicted onto them. And then secondly, the

1873
01:53:55,640 --> 01:53:58,320
Speaker 1: way intersect people is dealt with, it's something that reveals

1874
01:53:58,320 --> 01:54:00,400
Speaker 1: a lot about how the society is to look at

1875
01:54:00,439 --> 01:54:01,960
Speaker 1: gender and how society is going to look at the

1876
01:54:02,040 --> 01:54:04,960
Speaker 1: enforcement of gender. I think on the point of how

1877
01:54:06,200 --> 01:54:08,080
Speaker 1: it's in a lot of ways, the treatment of intersect

1878
01:54:08,120 --> 01:54:10,840
Speaker 1: people has gotten has gotten worse in the past like

1879
01:54:10,880 --> 01:54:14,719
Speaker 1: a few years. I feel like as the bureaucracy grows,

1880
01:54:15,520 --> 01:54:18,600
Speaker 1: the amount of violence that is necessary to maintain it

1881
01:54:19,160 --> 01:54:24,320
Speaker 1: also grows, and the bigger any any small thing threatens

1882
01:54:24,360 --> 01:54:27,519
Speaker 1: the validity of the entire bureaucracy. So they have to

1883
01:54:27,600 --> 01:54:30,240
Speaker 1: come down hard on anything that that is that is

1884
01:54:30,560 --> 01:54:34,040
Speaker 1: like deviant from that because they need to maintain the

1885
01:54:34,120 --> 01:54:37,000
Speaker 1: validity of the system that they have built. I think

1886
01:54:37,040 --> 01:54:39,360
Speaker 1: that's definitely an aspect. And the other thing that's really

1887
01:54:39,400 --> 01:54:41,400
Speaker 1: really bad is that, you know, we're going to talk

1888
01:54:41,400 --> 01:54:44,400
Speaker 1: about board this more a bit later, but like the

1889
01:54:44,720 --> 01:54:48,040
Speaker 1: actual capacity of the bureaucracy to enforce this stuff has

1890
01:54:48,160 --> 01:54:51,080
Speaker 1: increased so dramatically, even in the last fifty years. It

1891
01:54:51,280 --> 01:54:54,240
Speaker 1: is like like the the U s is a if

1892
01:54:54,680 --> 01:54:58,000
Speaker 1: to someone to someone living in right, the modern US

1893
01:54:58,080 --> 01:55:01,680
Speaker 1: is an incomprehensibly bureaucratic society. It is like like it

1894
01:55:02,600 --> 01:55:05,760
Speaker 1: even like the even like the like you know, like

1895
01:55:05,840 --> 01:55:07,280
Speaker 1: like the sort of people like yeah, like even like

1896
01:55:07,440 --> 01:55:10,360
Speaker 1: the most sort of like totalitarian style on is bureaucrat

1897
01:55:10,600 --> 01:55:13,000
Speaker 1: like looks at the US and it's like, what the

1898
01:55:13,080 --> 01:55:15,560
Speaker 1: funk guys, you guys are taking taking bureaucracy too far,

1899
01:55:15,960 --> 01:55:18,920
Speaker 1: Like even just like the surveillance capacities definitely would like

1900
01:55:19,000 --> 01:55:20,880
Speaker 1: you would have loved that to to be to be fair,

1901
01:55:20,920 --> 01:55:22,640
Speaker 1: to be fair, the East Germans did really well with

1902
01:55:22,760 --> 01:55:27,000
Speaker 1: what they had, but I think it's really so. I

1903
01:55:27,080 --> 01:55:29,400
Speaker 1: think also just in terms of how surveillance impacts the

1904
01:55:29,440 --> 01:55:32,160
Speaker 1: way you're able to do gender when you're well and

1905
01:55:33,400 --> 01:55:35,880
Speaker 1: when you're getting targeted advertisements for stuff based on your

1906
01:55:35,880 --> 01:55:38,720
Speaker 1: Internet searches, they're like that that that's one side of it,

1907
01:55:39,160 --> 01:55:41,320
Speaker 1: and there's other sides of it in terms of like

1908
01:55:41,400 --> 01:55:45,360
Speaker 1: you know, people people seeking to make like different gender

1909
01:55:45,440 --> 01:55:48,280
Speaker 1: presentations illegal. How the how how that had That type

1910
01:55:48,280 --> 01:55:52,800
Speaker 1: of surveillance will eventually lead into pretty pretty druckon Ian well.

1911
01:55:52,880 --> 01:55:56,760
Speaker 1: And and I think I think in a lot of ways,

1912
01:55:57,080 --> 01:55:59,440
Speaker 1: like the violence that has done to intersect kids is

1913
01:56:00,320 --> 01:56:02,000
Speaker 1: sort of it is one of the sort of origin

1914
01:56:02,080 --> 01:56:05,080
Speaker 1: points of this, right, Um, I I do actually want

1915
01:56:05,120 --> 01:56:06,880
Speaker 1: I want to sort of get into what what this

1916
01:56:07,040 --> 01:56:09,320
Speaker 1: is a little bit um since the nice in sixties.

1917
01:56:09,320 --> 01:56:11,440
Speaker 1: And again that what I'm saying this like this stuff

1918
01:56:11,520 --> 01:56:16,160
Speaker 1: is kind of recent, right, UM. Doctors have started commonly

1919
01:56:16,240 --> 01:56:19,360
Speaker 1: performing non consensual surgery and intersex kids to force them

1920
01:56:19,440 --> 01:56:21,920
Speaker 1: to conform to a gender. UM. Here's from a two

1921
01:56:21,960 --> 01:56:25,080
Speaker 1: thousand and thirteen report from the United Nations Special Rapporteur

1922
01:56:25,120 --> 01:56:28,680
Speaker 1: on Torture that's sited by Human Rights Watch. Children who

1923
01:56:28,720 --> 01:56:31,960
Speaker 1: are born with atypical sex characteristics are often subject to

1924
01:56:32,040 --> 01:56:38,959
Speaker 1: irreversible sex assignments, involuntary sterilization, involuntary genital normalization, surgery performed

1925
01:56:39,000 --> 01:56:41,440
Speaker 1: without their informed consent or that of the parents, in

1926
01:56:41,480 --> 01:56:44,480
Speaker 1: an attempt quote, in an attempt to fix their sex,

1927
01:56:45,000 --> 01:56:49,320
Speaker 1: leaving them with permanent, permanent, irreversible infertility and causing severe

1928
01:56:49,400 --> 01:56:56,200
Speaker 1: mental suffering. And this is fucking horrible. It happens, it's

1929
01:56:56,240 --> 01:56:58,240
Speaker 1: all the time, and on all of the people who

1930
01:56:58,320 --> 01:57:01,000
Speaker 1: write these fucking laws that are like giving giving someone

1931
01:57:01,080 --> 01:57:04,280
Speaker 1: gender affirming care is like needling them specifically carve out

1932
01:57:04,360 --> 01:57:07,520
Speaker 1: sections so that doctors can keep sucking doing this intersex kids,

1933
01:57:08,080 --> 01:57:13,320
Speaker 1: And it's horrible. It's really interesting how like UM, so

1934
01:57:13,480 --> 01:57:16,120
Speaker 1: often the sports field is a terrain where this kind

1935
01:57:16,160 --> 01:57:19,040
Speaker 1: of gets hashed out or like this brutality happens for

1936
01:57:19,120 --> 01:57:23,160
Speaker 1: the first time, Like the sports governing authorities have been

1937
01:57:23,240 --> 01:57:29,320
Speaker 1: fucking brutalizing intersex athletes for fifty years now, and every

1938
01:57:29,360 --> 01:57:31,920
Speaker 1: time it's because, yeah, they'll and they'll they'll put forth

1939
01:57:31,960 --> 01:57:35,120
Speaker 1: an argument and then lose in court most of the

1940
01:57:35,200 --> 01:57:38,560
Speaker 1: time because they'll they'll seek to advance like a very

1941
01:57:38,840 --> 01:57:41,960
Speaker 1: narrow definition of gender based on chromosomeality or something or

1942
01:57:42,000 --> 01:57:47,040
Speaker 1: testosterone levels or something, and then demonstrably this binary doesn't exist,

1943
01:57:47,280 --> 01:57:49,880
Speaker 1: right like, and then they'll lose, and they'll respond to

1944
01:57:50,000 --> 01:57:55,080
Speaker 1: losing by fucking destroying that person. Yeah, it's there are

1945
01:57:55,120 --> 01:57:58,480
Speaker 1: plenty of cases people can confined in history of that happening,

1946
01:57:58,520 --> 01:58:00,440
Speaker 1: and yeah, it's sucked up and and and I think

1947
01:58:00,720 --> 01:58:02,400
Speaker 1: the more I've been thinking about this, the more I

1948
01:58:02,520 --> 01:58:04,920
Speaker 1: think that the sort of like that a lot of

1949
01:58:04,960 --> 01:58:09,040
Speaker 1: what turfism is is this kind of like it's it's

1950
01:58:09,080 --> 01:58:12,600
Speaker 1: attempting to take the bureaucratic categories as literal truth. But

1951
01:58:12,880 --> 01:58:15,040
Speaker 1: that doesn't work. It doesn't It doesn't actually work on

1952
01:58:15,120 --> 01:58:16,920
Speaker 1: a sort of either on a scientific level or on

1953
01:58:16,960 --> 01:58:19,720
Speaker 1: a sort of more philosophical level, because again, what what

1954
01:58:20,000 --> 01:58:22,600
Speaker 1: what what that sort of bureaucratic assignment is is a

1955
01:58:22,800 --> 01:58:26,640
Speaker 1: is a radical simplification of reality that destroys it destroys

1956
01:58:26,680 --> 01:58:29,000
Speaker 1: reality itself in order to create a sort of like

1957
01:58:29,200 --> 01:58:31,520
Speaker 1: an M or and F on a page. And when

1958
01:58:31,560 --> 01:58:32,800
Speaker 1: you when you try to go back into the real

1959
01:58:32,840 --> 01:58:34,760
Speaker 1: world that it doesn't work. It only works when you

1960
01:58:34,760 --> 01:58:39,360
Speaker 1: can enforce it with violence. Tests do be loving to

1961
01:58:39,480 --> 01:58:41,760
Speaker 1: enforce the end with the violence? Yeah, and you know,

1962
01:58:42,000 --> 01:58:46,360
Speaker 1: I mean this is this entire thing is sort of

1963
01:58:46,520 --> 01:58:48,080
Speaker 1: this this is the basis of the sort of of

1964
01:58:48,160 --> 01:58:51,760
Speaker 1: the of the American gender bureaucracy. Right, It's inherently violent.

1965
01:58:51,880 --> 01:58:54,480
Speaker 1: It's it's not just sort of a procedure for recording

1966
01:58:54,520 --> 01:58:58,000
Speaker 1: what your gender is. It is it always sort of

1967
01:58:58,080 --> 01:59:01,680
Speaker 1: has been and is increasingly more were so now becoming

1968
01:59:01,720 --> 01:59:05,920
Speaker 1: a system that imposes it imposes a gender on you. Um,

1969
01:59:06,240 --> 01:59:08,000
Speaker 1: you know, and there's also a lot of ways that

1970
01:59:08,040 --> 01:59:10,080
Speaker 1: this bureaucracy you gets imposed on you that are you know,

1971
01:59:10,240 --> 01:59:12,960
Speaker 1: less extreme. You know, if if we go back to

1972
01:59:13,160 --> 01:59:16,960
Speaker 1: the question of like who are you assigned a gender for? Right,

1973
01:59:17,000 --> 01:59:19,640
Speaker 1: You're asigned a gender for the state, and you know,

1974
01:59:19,880 --> 01:59:23,360
Speaker 1: almost everything in your life depends on these bureaucratic documents.

1975
01:59:23,400 --> 01:59:25,280
Speaker 1: Because that's how the state understands you as a person

1976
01:59:25,320 --> 01:59:28,600
Speaker 1: by by these bureaucract documents like specifically birth certificates, process

1977
01:59:28,760 --> 01:59:34,520
Speaker 1: like driver's licenses, social Security cards, and sports generation papers. Yeah,

1978
01:59:34,800 --> 01:59:36,920
Speaker 1: I mean like here here, here's the American Bar Association

1979
01:59:36,960 --> 01:59:40,080
Speaker 1: talking about birth certificates. They are so common that we

1980
01:59:40,200 --> 01:59:43,360
Speaker 1: might even overlook their significance. In the United States, birth

1981
01:59:43,400 --> 01:59:47,520
Speaker 1: certificates serve as a proof of an individual's age, citizenship, status,

1982
01:59:47,560 --> 01:59:50,960
Speaker 1: and identity. They are necessary to obtain Social Security, apply

1983
01:59:51,080 --> 01:59:54,600
Speaker 1: for a passport, in rolland schools, get a driver's license,

1984
01:59:54,680 --> 01:59:58,640
Speaker 1: gain employment, or apply for other benefits. Humanitarian Desmond too

1985
01:59:58,720 --> 02:00:02,000
Speaker 1: to describe the birthtific it as quote a small paper,

1986
02:00:02,160 --> 02:00:04,680
Speaker 1: but it actually establishes who you are and gives access

1987
02:00:04,720 --> 02:00:07,480
Speaker 1: to the rights and privileges and the obligations of citizenship.

1988
02:00:08,440 --> 02:00:11,000
Speaker 1: You know, and I think that does Manchoo two is

1989
02:00:11,040 --> 02:00:14,920
Speaker 1: being enormously optimistic about sort of what it means to

1990
02:00:15,000 --> 02:00:17,640
Speaker 1: be seen by the state here, because the other thing

1991
02:00:17,720 --> 02:00:19,800
Speaker 1: that it does is it exposes you to the state's

1992
02:00:19,880 --> 02:00:22,920
Speaker 1: violence in a way where you know it now the

1993
02:00:23,000 --> 02:00:24,880
Speaker 1: state like this, this is this is the mechanism with

1994
02:00:24,880 --> 02:00:27,400
Speaker 1: you which it now knows who you are, so it

1995
02:00:27,480 --> 02:00:30,920
Speaker 1: does not having one, like, yeah, it's when the soft

1996
02:00:30,960 --> 02:00:35,040
Speaker 1: sits try to not have birthtificates for their children get

1997
02:00:35,400 --> 02:00:37,160
Speaker 1: violent and this and this is the thing. And one

1998
02:00:37,200 --> 02:00:39,320
Speaker 1: of one of the things here about this is that

1999
02:00:39,440 --> 02:00:43,040
Speaker 1: like you know, okay, you used to be able to,

2000
02:00:43,200 --> 02:00:46,520
Speaker 1: like get away with not having birth certificates, right, like

2001
02:00:46,600 --> 02:00:48,080
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of Americans used not to

2002
02:00:48,560 --> 02:00:49,960
Speaker 1: used to like not. But one of one of the

2003
02:00:49,960 --> 02:00:51,600
Speaker 1: things that happens over the course of World War two

2004
02:00:51,680 --> 02:00:55,200
Speaker 1: is there's this enormous expansion in the state's bureacratic capacity.

2005
02:00:55,200 --> 02:00:57,240
Speaker 1: And there's an expansion of state's bureacratic capacity because it

2006
02:00:57,320 --> 02:00:58,960
Speaker 1: has to you know, it has to go to war.

2007
02:00:59,520 --> 02:01:01,480
Speaker 1: But some taneously there's and there's something I didn't have

2008
02:01:01,640 --> 02:01:04,200
Speaker 1: to happen but did, is that you get the army

2009
02:01:04,240 --> 02:01:06,640
Speaker 1: and you get employers starting to ask people's birertificates. But

2010
02:01:06,680 --> 02:01:08,560
Speaker 1: if people don't have them, because like I don't know,

2011
02:01:08,640 --> 02:01:10,000
Speaker 1: I was, why why the funk do I need to

2012
02:01:10,080 --> 02:01:13,280
Speaker 1: record being born? Right? Like this is this this is

2013
02:01:13,320 --> 02:01:15,440
Speaker 1: only this is another thing you need. It's only a

2014
02:01:15,520 --> 02:01:20,000
Speaker 1: thing the state needs. Yeah, it's interesting to look at

2015
02:01:20,080 --> 02:01:22,280
Speaker 1: Like I was thinking about how this is also where

2016
02:01:22,320 --> 02:01:25,200
Speaker 1: the kind of front line of colonialism happens, like the

2017
02:01:25,560 --> 02:01:28,120
Speaker 1: enforcement of a binary gender on indigenous people. Like you

2018
02:01:28,160 --> 02:01:32,000
Speaker 1: can look at specific individuals um osh tissues. One of them,

2019
02:01:32,120 --> 02:01:35,240
Speaker 1: they were a crow person in the cronation who like

2020
02:01:35,640 --> 02:01:39,400
Speaker 1: for for the United States as a scout's what's called

2021
02:01:39,560 --> 02:01:42,080
Speaker 1: bada and then was like in later life kind of

2022
02:01:42,160 --> 02:01:44,400
Speaker 1: forced to conform to a binary gender with which they

2023
02:01:44,400 --> 02:01:48,320
Speaker 1: didn't identify and they hadn't lived that way and because

2024
02:01:48,400 --> 02:01:52,600
Speaker 1: they had to, having being assigned identity papers to live

2025
02:01:52,640 --> 02:01:54,440
Speaker 1: on a reservation, you have to take one of the

2026
02:01:54,480 --> 02:01:59,400
Speaker 1: fucking boxes. Yeah, and you know, and the thing about

2027
02:01:59,400 --> 02:02:01,480
Speaker 1: those fucking exist right is you know, even like to

2028
02:02:01,680 --> 02:02:03,480
Speaker 1: this day, there are a lot of states where you

2029
02:02:03,560 --> 02:02:06,400
Speaker 1: can't change your gender, like on on you can't change

2030
02:02:06,440 --> 02:02:09,160
Speaker 1: what says in the card. You just can't. And you know,

2031
02:02:10,000 --> 02:02:12,120
Speaker 1: if they've assigned you a gender that's not your gender,

2032
02:02:12,320 --> 02:02:15,040
Speaker 1: then well tough luck. They have they have an they

2033
02:02:15,080 --> 02:02:17,280
Speaker 1: have monopoly on the legitimate use of force, and you

2034
02:02:17,440 --> 02:02:20,000
Speaker 1: don't you know, there's other stags where you need a

2035
02:02:20,080 --> 02:02:23,120
Speaker 1: fucking court order saying that you've had surgery in order

2036
02:02:23,160 --> 02:02:25,840
Speaker 1: to get the fucking you know, in order to change

2037
02:02:25,840 --> 02:02:28,880
Speaker 1: your bureaucratic person. And again the reason for this is

2038
02:02:29,080 --> 02:02:31,760
Speaker 1: and I cannot emphasize this enough. Fuck you. That is that.

2039
02:02:31,960 --> 02:02:34,880
Speaker 1: That is that, that is the reason for this. Um, yeah,

2040
02:02:34,880 --> 02:02:37,120
Speaker 1: I want to I want to go back also to

2041
02:02:37,600 --> 02:02:39,480
Speaker 1: you know, look to to look a bit more about

2042
02:02:39,520 --> 02:02:42,920
Speaker 1: sort of bureacratic effects. Um I'm gonna read from a

2043
02:02:43,000 --> 02:02:45,920
Speaker 1: n triple epiece about trans guy in the UK and

2044
02:02:46,000 --> 02:02:50,720
Speaker 1: the fifties. From the start, the sensensialized press coverage or

2045
02:02:50,760 --> 02:02:54,240
Speaker 1: ferguson this transition focused on some surprisingly quote tition elements.

2046
02:02:54,640 --> 02:02:57,560
Speaker 1: Quote change of sex puts them in a different employment

2047
02:02:57,640 --> 02:03:01,520
Speaker 1: category with a raisin salary, reported one newspaper, underscoring the

2048
02:03:01,560 --> 02:03:03,920
Speaker 1: fact that being reclassified as male in the eyes of

2049
02:03:04,040 --> 02:03:07,320
Speaker 1: his employer at the British government tied into a complex

2050
02:03:07,400 --> 02:03:11,680
Speaker 1: network of gendered economic and labor discrimination. In fact, not

2051
02:03:11,880 --> 02:03:14,880
Speaker 1: only did his pay change, but his whole job category changed,

2052
02:03:14,920 --> 02:03:17,080
Speaker 1: even though he was doing exactly the same work under

2053
02:03:17,120 --> 02:03:20,680
Speaker 1: the same conditions. This was because women workers were simply

2054
02:03:20,840 --> 02:03:23,520
Speaker 1: were not simply paid less, but also kept in feminized

2055
02:03:23,600 --> 02:03:26,760
Speaker 1: job grades. In the civil service, despite the government's claims

2056
02:03:26,800 --> 02:03:30,960
Speaker 1: that service was a meritocracy, a question a question raised

2057
02:03:31,040 --> 02:03:33,680
Speaker 1: in Parliament by an MP who had heard about Ferguson,

2058
02:03:33,760 --> 02:03:37,120
Speaker 1: demanded to know what form and number of proofs other

2059
02:03:37,200 --> 02:03:40,320
Speaker 1: than a mirror announcement by the subject they've missed ended

2060
02:03:40,400 --> 02:03:44,600
Speaker 1: them a couple of times. I it is required before

2061
02:03:46,200 --> 02:03:50,680
Speaker 1: a female quote like like civil survey, is permitted to

2062
02:03:50,760 --> 02:03:54,160
Speaker 1: obtain a higher salary in a different employment category owing

2063
02:03:54,200 --> 02:03:57,640
Speaker 1: to a change in sex. By gaining a quote official change,

2064
02:03:57,760 --> 02:04:02,880
Speaker 1: Jonathan Ferguson suddenly transformed himself, suddenly suddenly transformed into chief

2065
02:04:02,960 --> 02:04:06,440
Speaker 1: Experimental Officer with a male breadwinner salary large enough to

2066
02:04:06,440 --> 02:04:09,320
Speaker 1: support a family, rather than a woman's lower wage that

2067
02:04:09,480 --> 02:04:12,880
Speaker 1: was expected to be supplements mental to a family's earnings.

2068
02:04:13,040 --> 02:04:16,080
Speaker 1: For obvious reasons, noted the Treasury, we should not have

2069
02:04:16,240 --> 02:04:19,000
Speaker 1: to say anything which would have led to a request

2070
02:04:19,080 --> 02:04:21,160
Speaker 1: for the male payrade to be applied from his data's

2071
02:04:21,240 --> 02:04:23,920
Speaker 1: entry to the civil service. In other words, the Treasury

2072
02:04:23,960 --> 02:04:26,280
Speaker 1: wanted to ensure for that Ferguson did not try to

2073
02:04:26,400 --> 02:04:32,440
Speaker 1: claim back wages in turf Island. Always been very normal. Um.

2074
02:04:33,440 --> 02:04:35,480
Speaker 1: And uh, there's I wanna read a little bit more

2075
02:04:35,520 --> 02:04:38,560
Speaker 1: of this. Um. Conversely, a different civil servant, this time

2076
02:04:38,560 --> 02:04:40,800
Speaker 1: a trans woman who was working in the Admiral p

2077
02:04:41,000 --> 02:04:44,680
Speaker 1: Department and transitioning around the same time, was advised it

2078
02:04:44,840 --> 02:04:47,800
Speaker 1: was in her quote interest to delay official recognition of

2079
02:04:47,920 --> 02:04:51,760
Speaker 1: the change until at least January nineteen sixty assuming full

2080
02:04:51,880 --> 02:04:55,160
Speaker 1: equal pay in the civil services introduced by nineteen sixty one.

2081
02:04:55,800 --> 02:04:58,560
Speaker 1: Her employers wrote that it was in her quote own interest,

2082
02:04:58,680 --> 02:05:02,200
Speaker 1: in their opinion, continue wearing men's clothing for the time

2083
02:05:02,280 --> 02:05:05,320
Speaker 1: being in order to avoid your significant reduction in pay.

2084
02:05:06,160 --> 02:05:09,320
Speaker 1: That it's it's funny because like I it's not funny.

2085
02:05:09,360 --> 02:05:11,000
Speaker 1: It's sucked up and it's been stupid, isn't it. But

2086
02:05:11,840 --> 02:05:14,040
Speaker 1: like I knew trans people in Britain who would have

2087
02:05:14,080 --> 02:05:22,120
Speaker 1: grown up around this time, who like socially transitioned after retirement. Yeah,

2088
02:05:22,440 --> 02:05:24,880
Speaker 1: or at least like openly to you know, we weren't

2089
02:05:24,920 --> 02:05:28,720
Speaker 1: like BFF or anything. But it's absolutely fucking insane that

2090
02:05:29,000 --> 02:05:33,160
Speaker 1: like that this argument was deployed. Yeah, And you know,

2091
02:05:33,360 --> 02:05:34,920
Speaker 1: you can you can see what's sort of going on here,

2092
02:05:34,960 --> 02:05:38,200
Speaker 1: which is that like you know, it's more it's more

2093
02:05:38,320 --> 02:05:41,040
Speaker 1: explicitly obvious and here that it is in a lot

2094
02:05:41,120 --> 02:05:44,400
Speaker 1: of other cases. But your status in the gender bureaucracy

2095
02:05:44,480 --> 02:05:46,320
Speaker 1: is a key element of how you're able to extract

2096
02:05:46,360 --> 02:05:50,240
Speaker 1: resources from the state. And you know, sometimes that's literally

2097
02:05:50,360 --> 02:05:53,080
Speaker 1: just an explicit pay gap, like it was based on

2098
02:05:53,120 --> 02:05:56,840
Speaker 1: institutional sexism. But you know, I think I think the

2099
02:05:56,920 --> 02:05:59,280
Speaker 1: second case is in a lot of ways more revealing. Right,

2100
02:06:00,040 --> 02:06:05,080
Speaker 1: the state and asgender bureaucracy is very explicitly saying, conform

2101
02:06:05,200 --> 02:06:07,640
Speaker 1: to what the jet the bureaucracy says your gender is,

2102
02:06:07,760 --> 02:06:10,360
Speaker 1: and it'll you'll get paid more, and if you don't,

2103
02:06:10,440 --> 02:06:12,680
Speaker 1: you'll get paid less. And if you look at this

2104
02:06:12,760 --> 02:06:15,080
Speaker 1: more abstractly, right, and in order to interface with the state,

2105
02:06:15,120 --> 02:06:16,840
Speaker 1: in order to extract well for benefits, in order to

2106
02:06:16,880 --> 02:06:19,440
Speaker 1: pay your fucking taxes, in order to drive, in order

2107
02:06:19,480 --> 02:06:23,560
Speaker 1: to buy alcohol, apparently now in order to buy the

2108
02:06:23,600 --> 02:06:26,360
Speaker 1: stupid cleaning bottles you of of compressed air but you

2109
02:06:26,440 --> 02:06:29,600
Speaker 1: have to use to to clean out your computer keyboards. Uh,

2110
02:06:29,680 --> 02:06:31,240
Speaker 1: in order to buy alcohol, in order to get on

2111
02:06:31,280 --> 02:06:34,120
Speaker 1: an airplane, you have to conform to the state's bureaucratic

2112
02:06:34,200 --> 02:06:36,120
Speaker 1: view of you. And if you don't, you can't do it.

2113
02:06:38,480 --> 02:06:40,520
Speaker 1: And and you know this this brings up the question,

2114
02:06:40,680 --> 02:06:43,120
Speaker 1: what right does the state have to assign my gender?

2115
02:06:43,760 --> 02:06:46,320
Speaker 1: And you know, the state will spit out a variety

2116
02:06:46,440 --> 02:06:49,040
Speaker 1: of sort of like pseudo medical and pseudo political explanations.

2117
02:06:49,120 --> 02:06:51,840
Speaker 1: But the answer is that the state has no right

2118
02:06:52,440 --> 02:06:57,400
Speaker 1: to tell you what your gender is except force. And

2119
02:06:57,680 --> 02:07:01,760
Speaker 1: you know, the the extent to which the state has

2120
02:07:01,800 --> 02:07:04,520
Speaker 1: actually been able to sort of do this kind of

2121
02:07:04,560 --> 02:07:06,480
Speaker 1: stuff has changed over time. But we we've talked about

2122
02:07:06,520 --> 02:07:08,320
Speaker 1: this a bit. But what like, you know, over the

2123
02:07:08,400 --> 02:07:12,000
Speaker 1: course of sort of over the course of sort of

2124
02:07:12,720 --> 02:07:14,760
Speaker 1: of the twentieth century, and you know, we can also

2125
02:07:14,800 --> 02:07:17,000
Speaker 1: look at things like, uh, we can look at the

2126
02:07:17,040 --> 02:07:19,080
Speaker 1: War on Terror, we can look at neo liberalism and

2127
02:07:19,200 --> 02:07:23,560
Speaker 1: David Graber's Iron law of liberalism, which the Iron Law

2128
02:07:23,600 --> 02:07:27,080
Speaker 1: of liberalism states that any market reform, any government initiative

2129
02:07:27,120 --> 02:07:30,280
Speaker 1: intended to reduce red tape and promote market forces, will

2130
02:07:30,320 --> 02:07:33,320
Speaker 1: have the ultimate effect of increasing a total number of regulations,

2131
02:07:33,400 --> 02:07:35,760
Speaker 1: the total amount of paperwork, and the total number of bureaucrats,

2132
02:07:35,800 --> 02:07:38,880
Speaker 1: the government employees, which I always love. But you know,

2133
02:07:39,040 --> 02:07:41,080
Speaker 1: like we we we've we've seen the sort of consequences

2134
02:07:41,120 --> 02:07:45,720
Speaker 1: of this playing out over the course of of you know,

2135
02:07:46,320 --> 02:07:48,480
Speaker 1: the last about a century. Right, if you go back

2136
02:07:48,480 --> 02:07:51,320
Speaker 1: to the age nineties, it was possible for basically private

2137
02:07:51,360 --> 02:07:53,600
Speaker 1: citizens to have just full on wars with each other

2138
02:07:54,200 --> 02:07:56,640
Speaker 1: in parts of the US, and that the government would

2139
02:07:56,640 --> 02:08:01,920
Speaker 1: just be like sure, okay, whatever, Like the people mining

2140
02:08:02,000 --> 02:08:04,560
Speaker 1: bird ship off of the coast of California are shooting

2141
02:08:04,600 --> 02:08:08,600
Speaker 1: each other with cannons again like whatever, Right, Like it's

2142
02:08:08,640 --> 02:08:12,240
Speaker 1: it's not really until the twentieth century, and really even

2143
02:08:12,320 --> 02:08:14,600
Speaker 1: in like the last fifty years has been a last

2144
02:08:14,640 --> 02:08:16,760
Speaker 1: expansion of this that like the state actually has full

2145
02:08:16,920 --> 02:08:21,680
Speaker 1: territorial control over everywhere that it claims to have control of. Right,

2146
02:08:22,240 --> 02:08:24,000
Speaker 1: we were like we we are just now getting to

2147
02:08:24,040 --> 02:08:26,520
Speaker 1: a place where the police can actually you know, like

2148
02:08:26,680 --> 02:08:29,680
Speaker 1: have like militarily hold the entire country at one time.

2149
02:08:30,360 --> 02:08:31,840
Speaker 1: And even then they can only do it as long

2150
02:08:31,880 --> 02:08:34,800
Speaker 1: as people sort of cooperate with them. Um, but you

2151
02:08:34,880 --> 02:08:40,520
Speaker 1: know this, this is really bad if you're a person

2152
02:08:41,040 --> 02:08:43,520
Speaker 1: who doesn't who who who the bureaucracy has deemed to

2153
02:08:43,560 --> 02:08:45,760
Speaker 1: be something else or and this is another you know,

2154
02:08:45,840 --> 02:08:48,200
Speaker 1: another sort of angle on this, right, Like, if you're

2155
02:08:48,240 --> 02:08:51,960
Speaker 1: someone who does not have documentation, the state very very

2156
02:08:52,120 --> 02:08:55,320
Speaker 1: quickly will just attempt to destroy you because you know,

2157
02:08:55,440 --> 02:08:56,920
Speaker 1: oh hey you don't you don't know the right paper.

2158
02:08:56,960 --> 02:08:58,640
Speaker 1: As this means the government can fucking arrest you and

2159
02:08:58,720 --> 02:09:01,880
Speaker 1: kick you out of the country. Yeah, and you know

2160
02:09:02,160 --> 02:09:06,920
Speaker 1: this is fucking horrible. Um, there's a lot of stuff, Like,

2161
02:09:06,960 --> 02:09:08,600
Speaker 1: there's a lot of other angles you can look at

2162
02:09:08,640 --> 02:09:10,480
Speaker 1: this from, right. I mean, like at some point we

2163
02:09:10,520 --> 02:09:13,920
Speaker 1: probably will do an episode about like the process of

2164
02:09:14,000 --> 02:09:16,400
Speaker 1: getting medical care and all of the people who you

2165
02:09:16,520 --> 02:09:19,240
Speaker 1: have to convince that you are your gender. But ye

2166
02:09:19,240 --> 02:09:21,080
Speaker 1: know that that's another episode in tirely what I want

2167
02:09:21,080 --> 02:09:23,800
Speaker 1: to get at here is that state bureaucratic power is

2168
02:09:23,840 --> 02:09:28,360
Speaker 1: being used by by just increasingly politicized gender bureaucrats not

2169
02:09:28,560 --> 02:09:30,840
Speaker 1: only to force people to comply with their sort of

2170
02:09:30,880 --> 02:09:33,160
Speaker 1: state mandated gender when they deal with the state, but

2171
02:09:33,240 --> 02:09:35,360
Speaker 1: also to force them to inhabit that gender in their

2172
02:09:35,400 --> 02:09:39,080
Speaker 1: private lives, which is constitutes nothing less than a form

2173
02:09:39,160 --> 02:09:42,600
Speaker 1: of full scale genders hotel terrianism. Um. We talked about

2174
02:09:42,640 --> 02:09:46,000
Speaker 1: that fucking Utah bill, which you know again prohibits minors

2175
02:09:46,040 --> 02:09:48,920
Speaker 1: from getting gender affirming surgery people block as a hormone treatment.

2176
02:09:49,360 --> 02:09:51,960
Speaker 1: That that is a bill that forces people to live

2177
02:09:52,040 --> 02:09:55,520
Speaker 1: in their state mandated gender. In Florida, gender bureaucrats are

2178
02:09:55,520 --> 02:09:59,880
Speaker 1: allowed to physically inspect athletes they suspect of being tran

2179
02:10:00,160 --> 02:10:03,440
Speaker 1: which is to say, not conforming to fucking state bureautic

2180
02:10:03,520 --> 02:10:08,880
Speaker 1: gender controls. It's children, right, like children, like they are

2181
02:10:08,880 --> 02:10:12,800
Speaker 1: allowed to molest your child because they think that because

2182
02:10:12,800 --> 02:10:16,520
Speaker 1: they're they think they're trans. The other aspect of this is,

2183
02:10:16,560 --> 02:10:20,280
Speaker 1: obviously there is something we've talked about before that's something

2184
02:10:20,320 --> 02:10:22,480
Speaker 1: that you're starting to see with these bills is they're

2185
02:10:22,560 --> 02:10:25,920
Speaker 1: trying to make the bills age number go as high

2186
02:10:25,960 --> 02:10:30,480
Speaker 1: as possible. Yes, there's bills for people, there's bills proposing

2187
02:10:30,920 --> 02:10:35,720
Speaker 1: twenty five not so it's trying to trying to police

2188
02:10:35,760 --> 02:10:39,280
Speaker 1: and control the bodily autonomy of of complete adults, which

2189
02:10:39,280 --> 02:10:43,080
Speaker 1: obviously is not not a new thing for the GOP,

2190
02:10:43,200 --> 02:10:46,280
Speaker 1: specifically especially in the wake of the Roe v. Wade

2191
02:10:46,600 --> 02:10:51,360
Speaker 1: overturning um. But another aspect of like this, this this

2192
02:10:51,520 --> 02:10:54,280
Speaker 1: goes beyond just people who are younger than the age

2193
02:10:54,320 --> 02:10:57,400
Speaker 1: of nineteen. This this they're going to try to keep

2194
02:10:57,520 --> 02:11:00,080
Speaker 1: raising this as much as as much as possible. And

2195
02:11:00,120 --> 02:11:01,720
Speaker 1: this is where the types of surveillance that I was

2196
02:11:01,720 --> 02:11:04,680
Speaker 1: talking about before it's going to become a problem because

2197
02:11:04,760 --> 02:11:07,280
Speaker 1: if you're if you're googling how to do d I

2198
02:11:07,480 --> 02:11:10,400
Speaker 1: Y H R T and get stuff shipped in from Brazil.

2199
02:11:11,400 --> 02:11:13,320
Speaker 1: Don't think that the surveillance stuff is not gonna not

2200
02:11:13,440 --> 02:11:17,200
Speaker 1: gonna impact your ability to do that. They had also

2201
02:11:17,280 --> 02:11:21,080
Speaker 1: polices like the gender presentation of SIS people specifically CISS

2202
02:11:21,120 --> 02:11:22,960
Speaker 1: for me, and I think, like I think the people

2203
02:11:23,000 --> 02:11:25,920
Speaker 1: who are getting physically inspected because of these laws are

2204
02:11:26,040 --> 02:11:29,120
Speaker 1: just girls who are good at fucking sport. Like there's

2205
02:11:29,120 --> 02:11:31,520
Speaker 1: CIS girls. They just they might be like like taller

2206
02:11:31,680 --> 02:11:35,320
Speaker 1: or stronger or and like it's some anyone has the

2207
02:11:35,360 --> 02:11:37,280
Speaker 1: power to just be like, oh you're not you're not

2208
02:11:37,360 --> 02:11:40,200
Speaker 1: a girly enough girl. Uh, And so fucking now you

2209
02:11:40,280 --> 02:11:42,480
Speaker 1: get to go to the pervert room and get expected.

2210
02:11:43,200 --> 02:11:45,680
Speaker 1: And you know what was like in Texas? Right the

2211
02:11:45,800 --> 02:11:48,440
Speaker 1: law right now is that if the state, if the

2212
02:11:48,480 --> 02:11:51,360
Speaker 1: state thinks you're fucking child is not sufficiently close to

2213
02:11:51,400 --> 02:11:53,440
Speaker 1: the gender, they can fucking take your child from you

2214
02:11:53,560 --> 02:11:55,880
Speaker 1: and force them to be whatever fucking gender the state

2215
02:11:55,920 --> 02:11:59,960
Speaker 1: wants them to be. Right, And you know, any other

2216
02:12:00,200 --> 02:12:02,440
Speaker 1: period in history, if you walk into a room and

2217
02:12:02,520 --> 02:12:04,160
Speaker 1: tell a bunch of people the state is going to

2218
02:12:04,240 --> 02:12:07,080
Speaker 1: decide your fucking gender, everyone would lose their goddamn minds.

2219
02:12:07,320 --> 02:12:09,520
Speaker 1: This would be like this is a This is a

2220
02:12:10,200 --> 02:12:13,160
Speaker 1: like unfathomable like even in sort of like the depths

2221
02:12:13,160 --> 02:12:15,560
Speaker 1: of the sort of totalitarian like nightmare or states. This

2222
02:12:15,640 --> 02:12:19,400
Speaker 1: is like an unfathomable level of sort of state bureaucratic

2223
02:12:19,600 --> 02:12:23,600
Speaker 1: like in position onto people's lives. And yeah, you know

2224
02:12:23,720 --> 02:12:25,520
Speaker 1: it's the fucking us right we have, we have We

2225
02:12:25,560 --> 02:12:28,520
Speaker 1: are the most bureacratic society humanity has ever produced. Nobody

2226
02:12:28,560 --> 02:12:30,920
Speaker 1: thinks it's the most bureacratic society has ever produced. And

2227
02:12:31,400 --> 02:12:34,280
Speaker 1: you know, we are right now every day seeing the

2228
02:12:34,400 --> 02:12:38,040
Speaker 1: points at which bureaucracy meets violence. The last thing I

2229
02:12:38,120 --> 02:12:41,560
Speaker 1: have to say is that you know, like this, this,

2230
02:12:41,840 --> 02:12:43,840
Speaker 1: this is the future of gender. The future of gender

2231
02:12:43,960 --> 02:12:47,960
Speaker 1: is government bureaucrats, whether they're cops, politicians, doctor's shop, protective services,

2232
02:12:48,000 --> 02:12:50,280
Speaker 1: as school board administrators forcing you to be a gendor

2233
02:12:50,320 --> 02:12:53,520
Speaker 1: that they're not. But fundamentally, they have no fucking right

2234
02:12:53,600 --> 02:12:55,520
Speaker 1: to do this, right. What they have is power, and

2235
02:12:55,600 --> 02:12:58,720
Speaker 1: their grasp on power is still right now tenuous. So

2236
02:12:59,000 --> 02:13:02,920
Speaker 1: you know, it is possible to stop them going any

2237
02:13:02,960 --> 02:13:04,800
Speaker 1: further than this. It is possible to beat back the

2238
02:13:04,840 --> 02:13:06,920
Speaker 1: power of the state, and it is possible to have

2239
02:13:07,080 --> 02:13:09,080
Speaker 1: a world that's not this, and we know it's possible

2240
02:13:09,080 --> 02:13:10,400
Speaker 1: to have world it is not this because it wasn't

2241
02:13:10,640 --> 02:13:14,200
Speaker 1: like this like fifty years ago. So yeah, fuck him

2242
02:13:15,120 --> 02:13:18,000
Speaker 1: and that's that's that's that that, that's that. That that's

2243
02:13:18,040 --> 02:13:24,120
Speaker 1: gender bureaucrats. People should read David Gray. But learning about

2244
02:13:24,120 --> 02:13:29,839
Speaker 1: intersectionality for a fucking second. Another another another great resource

2245
02:13:29,920 --> 02:13:33,560
Speaker 1: to learn about how you can like mix up gender stuff.

2246
02:13:33,600 --> 02:13:35,800
Speaker 1: There's this new video game out right now which has

2247
02:13:35,800 --> 02:13:40,720
Speaker 1: a pretty intense character creation selection you can It's called

2248
02:13:41,040 --> 02:13:46,360
Speaker 1: let me See, It's called Hogwarts Legacy. Is that No

2249
02:13:46,720 --> 02:13:49,760
Speaker 1: I thought you were going with side called but it has,

2250
02:13:49,960 --> 02:13:52,200
Speaker 1: it has It has a lot of different customizations that

2251
02:13:52,320 --> 02:13:55,200
Speaker 1: you can do for your gender presentation and and and

2252
02:13:55,280 --> 02:13:59,760
Speaker 1: your body parts. I think refusing could do this on Twitter,

2253
02:13:59,840 --> 02:14:01,880
Speaker 1: but I need, I need, I need to take fucking

2254
02:14:02,000 --> 02:14:04,480
Speaker 1: one minute talk about the dumbest argument anyone has ever made,

2255
02:14:04,640 --> 02:14:06,200
Speaker 1: which is that I have to buy this game in

2256
02:14:06,320 --> 02:14:09,680
Speaker 1: order to support the developers. Which think about this five seconds, right, Okay,

2257
02:14:09,680 --> 02:14:11,320
Speaker 1: if you have to buy this game to support the developers,

2258
02:14:11,360 --> 02:14:14,480
Speaker 1: don't you have to buy every other game to support

2259
02:14:14,480 --> 02:14:17,480
Speaker 1: their developers? In fact, are are you not morally obligated

2260
02:14:17,480 --> 02:14:19,600
Speaker 1: to buy every single product on Earth, because if you

2261
02:14:19,680 --> 02:14:22,080
Speaker 1: don't buy every single product that's ever been made, you

2262
02:14:22,800 --> 02:14:28,200
Speaker 1: those those will not be deployed. It's bullshit here. This

2263
02:14:28,320 --> 02:14:31,080
Speaker 1: is such a weird like capitalism of a poison development

2264
02:14:32,640 --> 02:14:36,200
Speaker 1: thinking you're obligated to consume. Lots of people on I

2265
02:14:36,960 --> 02:14:38,880
Speaker 1: have been holding my tongue on Twitter about this from

2266
02:14:38,960 --> 02:14:42,120
Speaker 1: monks now watching people watching people made the argument, I

2267
02:14:42,160 --> 02:14:44,720
Speaker 1: have to buy something to sport developers, which again buy

2268
02:14:44,760 --> 02:14:49,920
Speaker 1: a different game. Support those developers, buy fucking go on strike.

2269
02:14:50,360 --> 02:14:51,760
Speaker 1: Fucking I don't know if you want, if you want

2270
02:14:51,760 --> 02:14:56,000
Speaker 1: to want to support the develophy give you money someone

2271
02:14:56,040 --> 02:15:01,560
Speaker 1: who is in a fucking video game developer. Well, I'm

2272
02:15:01,600 --> 02:15:03,640
Speaker 1: glad we're getting I'm glad glad we could have that

2273
02:15:03,960 --> 02:15:08,240
Speaker 1: that special bonding moment over the very inclusive gender settings

2274
02:15:08,360 --> 02:15:12,560
Speaker 1: inside this new hit video game. So that's that's pretty cool.

2275
02:15:13,120 --> 02:15:16,200
Speaker 1: I hopefully we get an ad from them soon, but

2276
02:15:16,800 --> 02:15:19,520
Speaker 1: I hope, so, I hope. So the worst Twitter day

2277
02:15:19,560 --> 02:15:21,400
Speaker 1: of my life is the day we get that fucking

2278
02:15:21,440 --> 02:15:41,280
Speaker 1: ad gold presented by Hogwarts. Hi, everyone is it could

2279
02:15:41,280 --> 02:15:44,360
Speaker 1: happen here And it's just James today because today I'm

2280
02:15:44,400 --> 02:15:48,160
Speaker 1: doing a little interview on the situation for Hindu people.

2281
02:15:48,880 --> 02:15:51,480
Speaker 1: If you're not familiar with the Hindu genocide, we're not

2282
02:15:51,520 --> 02:15:53,080
Speaker 1: going to cover that in depth, but we will give

2283
02:15:53,480 --> 02:15:56,360
Speaker 1: a little bit of an overview. And I'm talking to

2284
02:15:57,040 --> 02:16:00,680
Speaker 1: on your Mo, who is Rhinga himself and who works

2285
02:16:00,720 --> 02:16:03,560
Speaker 1: with the National Unity Government and advising them about Reheinga

2286
02:16:03,600 --> 02:16:06,760
Speaker 1: people's human rights. I think the news cycle hasn't really

2287
02:16:06,800 --> 02:16:10,480
Speaker 1: covered many Rehiner issues since the Rhea genocide. The world's

2288
02:16:10,520 --> 02:16:12,680
Speaker 1: kind of moved off from caring about them, but they're

2289
02:16:12,680 --> 02:16:14,920
Speaker 1: still in a very difficult situation, and we want to

2290
02:16:15,000 --> 02:16:18,480
Speaker 1: update you on issues that continue to face the Rehenga people.

2291
02:16:18,800 --> 02:16:21,560
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed the interview. So today I'm joined

2292
02:16:21,640 --> 02:16:26,320
Speaker 1: by on Kyomo, who's an advisor to the National Unity

2293
02:16:26,400 --> 02:16:28,920
Speaker 1: Government of Miama, which people will hopefully be familiar with.

2294
02:16:29,080 --> 02:16:30,400
Speaker 1: If not, he can explain a little bit of what

2295
02:16:30,520 --> 02:16:33,320
Speaker 1: that is. He's an advisor to the Ministry of Human

2296
02:16:33,440 --> 02:16:38,200
Speaker 1: Rights and also a Rehinger human rights activist himself. And so, Phi,

2297
02:16:38,360 --> 02:16:40,360
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for

2298
02:16:40,480 --> 02:16:43,000
Speaker 1: having me. Yeah, So what I'd love to do today

2299
02:16:43,280 --> 02:16:46,360
Speaker 1: is I think if our listeners have listened to our

2300
02:16:46,400 --> 02:16:50,119
Speaker 1: previous coverage to what's happening in Mihama or Burma, depending

2301
02:16:50,160 --> 02:16:53,080
Speaker 1: on which one do you prefer. They will know a

2302
02:16:53,200 --> 02:16:55,720
Speaker 1: lot about the coup, and they will know a lot

2303
02:16:56,400 --> 02:17:00,680
Speaker 1: about the things of Pappasinsku right, the PDF and the

2304
02:17:01,160 --> 02:17:05,080
Speaker 1: ethnic resistance organizations, but I think they might not be

2305
02:17:05,200 --> 02:17:09,240
Speaker 1: as familiar with the situation that Reenga people have been

2306
02:17:09,280 --> 02:17:11,280
Speaker 1: in for a long time and continue to be in.

2307
02:17:11,760 --> 02:17:14,600
Speaker 1: It's a different part of the the country too. We

2308
02:17:14,680 --> 02:17:18,440
Speaker 1: were we were in um Massot, which is on the

2309
02:17:18,480 --> 02:17:21,400
Speaker 1: other side, So that's something we've covered a lot less.

2310
02:17:21,520 --> 02:17:26,560
Speaker 1: So perhaps you could begin by explaining, like why there

2311
02:17:26,600 --> 02:17:29,680
Speaker 1: are so many Rehindia refugees who have left. Obviously, the

2312
02:17:30,080 --> 02:17:32,720
Speaker 1: history of the persecution of Ranger people is very long.

2313
02:17:33,320 --> 02:17:35,879
Speaker 1: But if you could give us sort of a potted

2314
02:17:35,959 --> 02:17:40,440
Speaker 1: history of of the persecution of Rehinia people by various

2315
02:17:40,560 --> 02:17:44,240
Speaker 1: governments in Myanmar and and what has led to this

2316
02:17:44,440 --> 02:17:47,959
Speaker 1: massive exodus and this big refugee population of Hinda people, now,

2317
02:17:48,000 --> 02:17:50,240
Speaker 1: that would be great to start with. Great, thank you,

2318
02:17:50,400 --> 02:17:54,119
Speaker 1: thank you for having me in. The history is very long,

2319
02:17:54,240 --> 02:17:59,640
Speaker 1: but I will be concrete and and and short. The

2320
02:18:00,200 --> 02:18:05,160
Speaker 1: Ruheinga people has been in Myanmar before Burma even exists,

2321
02:18:05,959 --> 02:18:09,440
Speaker 1: before Burma become Burma, and before British came and their

2322
02:18:09,520 --> 02:18:17,760
Speaker 1: significant architect color related infrastructure that exists indicate existence of

2323
02:18:17,800 --> 02:18:21,240
Speaker 1: the Ruhengan. There's a lot of literature research and Ruhinga

2324
02:18:21,320 --> 02:18:27,439
Speaker 1: people themselves living in generations and generations um there indicates

2325
02:18:27,600 --> 02:18:30,400
Speaker 1: that Ruhinga are part of my and Mare and it

2326
02:18:31,520 --> 02:18:34,760
Speaker 1: he used to be and it will be. And Runga

2327
02:18:35,000 --> 02:18:38,120
Speaker 1: not only the ethnic minority, they are also the religious minority.

2328
02:18:38,200 --> 02:18:42,840
Speaker 1: Majority of premius people are Buddhists and of the second largest,

2329
02:18:43,200 --> 02:18:45,800
Speaker 1: followed by the Muslims are Christian, and then the third

2330
02:18:45,920 --> 02:18:50,000
Speaker 1: largest are Muslim and Ruhinga are Muslim and and Ruhinga

2331
02:18:50,000 --> 02:18:54,320
Speaker 1: are single Muslim ethnic groups and Sink also religious ethnic groups.

2332
02:18:54,840 --> 02:19:01,080
Speaker 1: And there has been historical exclusion discriminations sponsored by the

2333
02:19:01,640 --> 02:19:05,600
Speaker 1: and sponsored and carried out by the consecutive government of

2334
02:19:05,680 --> 02:19:09,720
Speaker 1: Myanmar to target this religious and ethnic minority, to exclude

2335
02:19:09,760 --> 02:19:13,640
Speaker 1: from religious, ethnic and social aspects of the society, and

2336
02:19:14,520 --> 02:19:17,280
Speaker 1: and it has been politically motivating for many government it

2337
02:19:17,400 --> 02:19:22,680
Speaker 1: has always been beneficial in in and mincing the larger

2338
02:19:22,800 --> 02:19:26,320
Speaker 1: populations of Myanmar by showing Runga as a threat to

2339
02:19:26,440 --> 02:19:31,000
Speaker 1: the country because of their religious differences and to the

2340
02:19:31,080 --> 02:19:34,720
Speaker 1: way that we were and we eat are slightly different

2341
02:19:34,800 --> 02:19:38,440
Speaker 1: than than Purmese because we have our own culture and

2342
02:19:38,520 --> 02:19:42,360
Speaker 1: own traditions and own language and and u and it's

2343
02:19:42,480 --> 02:19:49,000
Speaker 1: enriched by by those UH. Thus the first start of execution,

2344
02:19:49,240 --> 02:19:52,600
Speaker 1: like executing these discriminatory policies to work to the Runga

2345
02:19:52,920 --> 02:19:56,960
Speaker 1: has started as as long as um as far as

2346
02:19:57,080 --> 02:20:00,440
Speaker 1: back in nineteen sixty where the first coup took nineteen

2347
02:20:00,480 --> 02:20:04,480
Speaker 1: sixty two when first took place, and then military consecutive

2348
02:20:04,520 --> 02:20:09,800
Speaker 1: military government accelerated that to form to UH situations where

2349
02:20:09,879 --> 02:20:15,120
Speaker 1: it could be UH defined and fall under the category

2350
02:20:15,200 --> 02:20:19,560
Speaker 1: of the crimes against humanity. So in nineteen seventy eight

2351
02:20:19,720 --> 02:20:24,000
Speaker 1: there is a big operations against Hina people to deport

2352
02:20:24,120 --> 02:20:27,160
Speaker 1: them and two thousand people has to be flee to

2353
02:20:28,320 --> 02:20:31,959
Speaker 1: to Bangladesh and some of them still remain as refugees

2354
02:20:32,160 --> 02:20:35,640
Speaker 1: to third generations for the generations in Bangladesh not being

2355
02:20:35,640 --> 02:20:38,959
Speaker 1: able to repatriate it to the place where they come from.

2356
02:20:39,320 --> 02:20:43,320
Speaker 1: And followed by that the nineteen UH ninety two there

2357
02:20:43,400 --> 02:20:49,320
Speaker 1: was another influx of the refugees and the refugee it's

2358
02:20:49,400 --> 02:20:52,720
Speaker 1: also the quite significant larger number of the refugees and

2359
02:20:52,879 --> 02:20:56,920
Speaker 1: and and not everyone could come back. And there is

2360
02:20:56,959 --> 02:21:00,880
Speaker 1: another layer of the refugees that remains UH from the

2361
02:21:00,959 --> 02:21:06,320
Speaker 1: report treating then from the violation the human rights violations

2362
02:21:06,400 --> 02:21:10,680
Speaker 1: became too through h gas business, a surial limiting the child,

2363
02:21:11,120 --> 02:21:14,760
Speaker 1: the number of child that you can have, and treating

2364
02:21:14,800 --> 02:21:17,400
Speaker 1: you less than an animals, not having the religious right

2365
02:21:17,440 --> 02:21:22,520
Speaker 1: to exercise the way that you believe, and restrictions of movement, killing, raping,

2366
02:21:22,959 --> 02:21:27,199
Speaker 1: and it's continued and it has been accelerated in different

2367
02:21:27,240 --> 02:21:30,000
Speaker 1: form and shape where it could be it could come

2368
02:21:30,080 --> 02:21:33,960
Speaker 1: to a situation it's from from crimes against you and

2369
02:21:34,040 --> 02:21:37,400
Speaker 1: it is being transformed to genocides and and in two

2370
02:21:37,440 --> 02:21:40,280
Speaker 1: thousands seventeen it's one to the highest pick of the

2371
02:21:40,360 --> 02:21:44,240
Speaker 1: genocides where a million people are being deported by burning

2372
02:21:44,360 --> 02:21:47,560
Speaker 1: and many people had a thousand people died and many

2373
02:21:47,720 --> 02:21:50,000
Speaker 1: thousands women being raped. And there are a lot of

2374
02:21:50,360 --> 02:21:56,440
Speaker 1: fatherless child in the camp today being UH big bond

2375
02:21:56,560 --> 02:21:59,640
Speaker 1: by by by by the woman's who victims of the

2376
02:21:59,720 --> 02:22:02,320
Speaker 1: of the rief of the Nyama military. And today there

2377
02:22:02,440 --> 02:22:06,440
Speaker 1: is a million people in Bangladesh and with no hope

2378
02:22:06,560 --> 02:22:09,520
Speaker 1: to be reportuated soon to the place of origin with

2379
02:22:09,600 --> 02:22:13,279
Speaker 1: safety and and dignity. And of course the political landscape

2380
02:22:13,320 --> 02:22:16,360
Speaker 1: in Myanmar has shifted. UH. It used to be in

2381
02:22:16,400 --> 02:22:21,760
Speaker 1: the democratic transition from two thousands ten to twenty with

2382
02:22:21,920 --> 02:22:27,280
Speaker 1: two consecutive different government and the democratically elected government has

2383
02:22:27,360 --> 02:22:31,000
Speaker 1: been overthrown by by a temkup by the military who

2384
02:22:31,120 --> 02:22:34,640
Speaker 1: had ruled the country for for for many decades. And

2385
02:22:35,160 --> 02:22:39,280
Speaker 1: UH and and of course the democratically elected government which

2386
02:22:39,320 --> 02:22:43,000
Speaker 1: I advise to UH is being some of the member

2387
02:22:43,080 --> 02:22:45,680
Speaker 1: of the government are being arrested, and some are in

2388
02:22:45,800 --> 02:22:49,240
Speaker 1: the in the ethnic territorial control, and and some are

2389
02:22:49,360 --> 02:22:52,920
Speaker 1: in exile, and and and so the country so the

2390
02:22:53,640 --> 02:22:56,879
Speaker 1: reactions of the fifty million people has been different because

2391
02:22:56,920 --> 02:22:59,520
Speaker 1: there has been several ku inman Mara and this was

2392
02:22:59,640 --> 02:23:03,680
Speaker 1: their the the political calculations of the military leaders to

2393
02:23:03,760 --> 02:23:07,119
Speaker 1: ATTEMPD the coup was wrong that they did not expect

2394
02:23:07,200 --> 02:23:09,440
Speaker 1: the resistance of the people. And then of course the

2395
02:23:10,240 --> 02:23:15,600
Speaker 1: the the young Generation Z people came in to to resist. Uitially,

2396
02:23:15,640 --> 02:23:18,320
Speaker 1: they claimed to be peacefully protesting to hand over the

2397
02:23:18,400 --> 02:23:21,720
Speaker 1: power back to the to the to the democratically elected people,

2398
02:23:21,800 --> 02:23:24,200
Speaker 1: but as a result they were being brutally cracked on

2399
02:23:24,280 --> 02:23:28,080
Speaker 1: and killed, arrested, and then and then the young people

2400
02:23:28,200 --> 02:23:30,400
Speaker 1: started to understand that we need to speak the language

2401
02:23:30,440 --> 02:23:33,640
Speaker 1: that they understand. They understand, so they speak that language

2402
02:23:33,680 --> 02:23:37,160
Speaker 1: is grabbing a gun and and and and promming the military.

2403
02:23:37,240 --> 02:23:39,840
Speaker 1: So followed by that, National Unity Government has been formed

2404
02:23:39,840 --> 02:23:43,240
Speaker 1: by with elected members of the of the of the

2405
02:23:43,320 --> 02:23:47,200
Speaker 1: parliament both lower Horna Opera hosts. So the National Unity

2406
02:23:47,240 --> 02:23:50,080
Speaker 1: Government today is the most the legitimate government of Yanmar

2407
02:23:50,200 --> 02:23:53,120
Speaker 1: and having also some tertorial control. Of course, majority of

2408
02:23:53,160 --> 02:23:58,080
Speaker 1: the government investor infrastructure are being being captured illegally by

2409
02:23:58,160 --> 02:24:01,560
Speaker 1: the military untain. Yeah, and it's interesting that people are

2410
02:24:01,680 --> 02:24:05,680
Speaker 1: familiar with the sort of ethnic makeup of previous governments

2411
02:24:05,959 --> 02:24:08,640
Speaker 1: and then the National Unity Government. From what I understand,

2412
02:24:09,280 --> 02:24:13,800
Speaker 1: it's not as much dominated by the majority ethnic Berman

2413
02:24:13,920 --> 02:24:16,720
Speaker 1: people in the International Unity Government as it was before

2414
02:24:17,280 --> 02:24:19,440
Speaker 1: even under their n LG. Right, even under sort of

2415
02:24:19,560 --> 02:24:24,480
Speaker 1: the most most democratic that there has been in the

2416
02:24:24,600 --> 02:24:27,160
Speaker 1: MA for some time, like there was still a domination

2417
02:24:27,240 --> 02:24:30,000
Speaker 1: by by one ethnicity. Right that the National Unity Government

2418
02:24:30,120 --> 02:24:33,640
Speaker 1: is more ethnically diverse, is that right? Correct? But still

2419
02:24:33,720 --> 02:24:37,360
Speaker 1: there are a lot of rooms for improvement. Particularly range

2420
02:24:37,480 --> 02:24:40,680
Speaker 1: people has always been part of Myanmar and politically excluded.

2421
02:24:41,040 --> 02:24:43,240
Speaker 1: And despite a million people being pushed out to the

2422
02:24:43,320 --> 02:24:47,200
Speaker 1: Bangladesh through a genocidal attempt, the remaining populations in Yenmar

2423
02:24:47,720 --> 02:24:52,760
Speaker 1: is six people politically represented both sides of populations under

2424
02:24:52,840 --> 02:24:56,800
Speaker 1: continued genocidal attempts of the Miyama made Free and the

2425
02:24:56,920 --> 02:25:01,320
Speaker 1: National United Government did not include politically meaningfully the Ruhinga

2426
02:25:01,400 --> 02:25:04,879
Speaker 1: populations still now and they appointed me as an adviser,

2427
02:25:05,080 --> 02:25:08,800
Speaker 1: But a politically representable size of populations need to be represented,

2428
02:25:09,240 --> 02:25:12,360
Speaker 1: not by functions alone. It's need to be both all

2429
02:25:12,520 --> 02:25:16,360
Speaker 1: represented by functions and number equally to to UH, to

2430
02:25:16,520 --> 02:25:20,760
Speaker 1: other ethnic And we're in the context of identity politics

2431
02:25:20,840 --> 02:25:23,880
Speaker 1: in me and Mare and your political rights and responsibilities

2432
02:25:23,879 --> 02:25:26,160
Speaker 1: to what to the nations are associated that the very

2433
02:25:26,240 --> 02:25:29,600
Speaker 1: identity that you were so time to time. There is

2434
02:25:29,640 --> 02:25:33,200
Speaker 1: a big questions like you know, we're moving forward to

2435
02:25:33,360 --> 02:25:36,200
Speaker 1: the part of democracy to make the country to back

2436
02:25:36,280 --> 02:25:40,080
Speaker 1: to the track of democracy. But the very principle of

2437
02:25:40,200 --> 02:25:43,720
Speaker 1: democracy is majority rules and and respect the minorities right right,

2438
02:25:44,120 --> 02:25:49,720
Speaker 1: and still the Runga are being despite the international pressure,

2439
02:25:49,760 --> 02:25:53,360
Speaker 1: particularly the United States and it's allies to have inclusive

2440
02:25:53,400 --> 02:25:57,280
Speaker 1: democracy and Ruhinga people are not yet meaningful included in

2441
02:25:57,360 --> 02:26:00,440
Speaker 1: the government. Yeah, and I think that's something we've spoken

2442
02:26:00,440 --> 02:26:03,879
Speaker 1: about a lot with with Karen and Karni, people who

2443
02:26:03,920 --> 02:26:06,800
Speaker 1: we've spoken to about the sort of the need for

2444
02:26:06,879 --> 02:26:10,560
Speaker 1: a more inclusive structure, whether that's like a federal democracy

2445
02:26:11,280 --> 02:26:15,400
Speaker 1: after obviously after the military hunter has been deposed, or

2446
02:26:15,440 --> 02:26:19,840
Speaker 1: certainly something that's more inclusive, and perhaps we can talk

2447
02:26:19,879 --> 02:26:23,400
Speaker 1: about how Like it's very interesting to me when I

2448
02:26:23,440 --> 02:26:27,640
Speaker 1: talk to young people generation Z people from the EMMA,

2449
02:26:28,120 --> 02:26:30,640
Speaker 1: they will say that like they wouldn't have even said

2450
02:26:30,800 --> 02:26:33,640
Speaker 1: sometimes for a hind yet like ten years ago, that

2451
02:26:33,840 --> 02:26:35,880
Speaker 1: they wouldn't have used to term they have they'd have

2452
02:26:35,959 --> 02:26:39,040
Speaker 1: seen the people who we now who we would call

2453
02:26:39,240 --> 02:26:42,520
Speaker 1: hin As Bangladesh. He's right because this was the narrative.

2454
02:26:42,600 --> 02:26:45,600
Speaker 1: Can you explain how you've explained very well that that's

2455
02:26:45,640 --> 02:26:49,480
Speaker 1: not true, but how that narrative was constructed and what

2456
02:26:49,640 --> 02:26:53,960
Speaker 1: it was used to do. I think it's once again

2457
02:26:54,440 --> 02:26:58,400
Speaker 1: to sclue through Hingen to curry our systematic destructions mentally

2458
02:26:58,440 --> 02:27:02,160
Speaker 1: and physically. The Rhinga is also a lot to do

2459
02:27:02,280 --> 02:27:06,960
Speaker 1: with their spreading propaganda, misinformations and and disinformations through a

2460
02:27:07,040 --> 02:27:11,680
Speaker 1: state let media boosts online and offline, and so this

2461
02:27:12,080 --> 02:27:15,960
Speaker 1: means these destructions has happened with the state sponsortain state

2462
02:27:16,200 --> 02:27:22,680
Speaker 1: pre plan intentional um intentional intentional UH way of doing it,

2463
02:27:23,240 --> 02:27:26,800
Speaker 1: and thus the society, the Hinga people has been restricted

2464
02:27:26,879 --> 02:27:29,000
Speaker 1: from moving. And this is one of the least developed

2465
02:27:29,720 --> 02:27:32,040
Speaker 1: region where the hunger people living. A lot of people

2466
02:27:32,120 --> 02:27:36,760
Speaker 1: from from like other state wouldn't be able to travel

2467
02:27:36,840 --> 02:27:39,320
Speaker 1: and go and see what is happening really inside there

2468
02:27:39,640 --> 02:27:41,959
Speaker 1: and to people would not be able to move parts

2469
02:27:42,040 --> 02:27:45,040
Speaker 1: of that to tell their stories. So all the narrative

2470
02:27:45,120 --> 02:27:47,800
Speaker 1: that people here is the military and the government what

2471
02:27:47,920 --> 02:27:50,400
Speaker 1: the government used to put at that moment. So in

2472
02:27:50,520 --> 02:27:53,400
Speaker 1: the in the in the eyes or in the perceptions

2473
02:27:53,440 --> 02:27:56,920
Speaker 1: of the people through Hingas are from Bangladesh and they

2474
02:27:56,959 --> 02:27:59,760
Speaker 1: are trying to to take over the country and they

2475
02:27:59,800 --> 02:28:03,560
Speaker 1: had a national security threat and that was denderative. So

2476
02:28:03,760 --> 02:28:07,800
Speaker 1: they the reality is being defined by the perceptions and

2477
02:28:08,280 --> 02:28:12,720
Speaker 1: falls and misinformations that being given in a consistent intentional

2478
02:28:13,160 --> 02:28:15,520
Speaker 1: way to the young people. And of course today I

2479
02:28:15,640 --> 02:28:19,440
Speaker 1: think has changed slightly to be seeing to what is

2480
02:28:19,560 --> 02:28:23,280
Speaker 1: reality and people showing the sympathy to what happened to

2481
02:28:23,280 --> 02:28:26,720
Speaker 1: the Ruhinga because it's every time something happened in me,

2482
02:28:26,800 --> 02:28:29,200
Speaker 1: I'm like that it's consistent to work to the Rhinga

2483
02:28:29,520 --> 02:28:33,440
Speaker 1: the human rights violations, crimes against humanity and genocide, and

2484
02:28:33,920 --> 02:28:38,760
Speaker 1: the people fifty million people in Myanmar were not either

2485
02:28:38,840 --> 02:28:43,000
Speaker 1: they're seeing neutral or their extending with the military not

2486
02:28:43,840 --> 02:28:46,360
Speaker 1: like too that this should do this and this is

2487
02:28:46,520 --> 02:28:49,080
Speaker 1: right to do to kill people, right to read because

2488
02:28:49,160 --> 02:28:55,400
Speaker 1: their national city security threat. But what had happened to

2489
02:28:55,440 --> 02:28:58,600
Speaker 1: the Ruhinga people, perhaps in the not the same shape

2490
02:28:58,640 --> 02:29:03,160
Speaker 1: and same as already or valocity or momentum or intensity

2491
02:29:04,040 --> 02:29:06,120
Speaker 1: has started to happen after the coup, to to the

2492
02:29:06,200 --> 02:29:08,280
Speaker 1: to the Bama people, and then they tend to realize

2493
02:29:08,600 --> 02:29:11,280
Speaker 1: what happened to ring What Ringa used to tell running

2494
02:29:11,280 --> 02:29:14,560
Speaker 1: the whole village is killing and raping is exactly what

2495
02:29:14,760 --> 02:29:17,480
Speaker 1: what what is happening? More or less exactly what is

2496
02:29:17,480 --> 02:29:20,520
Speaker 1: happening to us? Than they were right? And it's the

2497
02:29:20,640 --> 02:29:23,119
Speaker 1: big teams change and the proper traitors remain the same.

2498
02:29:23,640 --> 02:29:26,520
Speaker 1: And with that concept people come to but again I

2499
02:29:26,600 --> 02:29:29,200
Speaker 1: think they still it's a very small number of the populations,

2500
02:29:29,480 --> 02:29:33,320
Speaker 1: uh compared to the whole populations that lives in Yanmar

2501
02:29:33,800 --> 02:29:36,360
Speaker 1: and in in in the democratic principles, there is no

2502
02:29:36,720 --> 02:29:39,560
Speaker 1: like you don't tend to say something just because that

2503
02:29:39,720 --> 02:29:43,840
Speaker 1: you sympathize. And there are principles and values that you

2504
02:29:44,160 --> 02:29:48,680
Speaker 1: do not compromise in any circumstance. So equal right, justice

2505
02:29:49,240 --> 02:29:54,960
Speaker 1: and and inclusivity and like like celebrating of the diversity.

2506
02:29:55,560 --> 02:29:57,920
Speaker 1: These things are very core principles of of of the

2507
02:29:57,959 --> 02:30:01,160
Speaker 1: democracy that that we are like as a Burmese people

2508
02:30:01,400 --> 02:30:04,560
Speaker 1: asking from international community to help. What we're preaching for

2509
02:30:04,800 --> 02:30:07,400
Speaker 1: to ward to the democracy need to be demonstrated at home.

2510
02:30:07,520 --> 02:30:10,880
Speaker 1: First we need to act up on and and so

2511
02:30:11,440 --> 02:30:15,360
Speaker 1: I think the benchmark, there's no the benchmark shouldn't be

2512
02:30:15,440 --> 02:30:18,199
Speaker 1: defined to include or exclude someone based on the sympathies

2513
02:30:18,280 --> 02:30:20,840
Speaker 1: need to be based on the principles and values. Can

2514
02:30:20,879 --> 02:30:23,240
Speaker 1: you explain a little bit about the situation that range

2515
02:30:23,240 --> 02:30:25,880
Speaker 1: of people who have left meam or maybe they're in

2516
02:30:25,920 --> 02:30:29,280
Speaker 1: Cox's bizarre, maybe they're in no man's land, maybe they're

2517
02:30:29,720 --> 02:30:32,400
Speaker 1: they're now being moved to an island right? Can can

2518
02:30:32,440 --> 02:30:37,760
Speaker 1: you explain what life is like for those people? Of course,

2519
02:30:37,879 --> 02:30:41,640
Speaker 1: the when we can get people fleds to Bangladesh, it

2520
02:30:42,040 --> 02:30:47,600
Speaker 1: was attempting to survive, Uh, like they managed to survive

2521
02:30:47,879 --> 02:30:52,000
Speaker 1: and otherwise many died and they could be one of

2522
02:30:52,080 --> 02:30:56,120
Speaker 1: those who who died and they survive, meaning that these

2523
02:30:56,240 --> 02:30:59,959
Speaker 1: old people are have physical and mental destruction and untheless

2524
02:31:00,040 --> 02:31:02,920
Speaker 1: cars in their physical and mental aspects of the life.

2525
02:31:03,280 --> 02:31:06,160
Speaker 1: And and of course a million people in Bangladesh to

2526
02:31:06,200 --> 02:31:09,680
Speaker 1: be hosted by the BANGLADESHIPH government BANGLADESHIH people has been

2527
02:31:09,760 --> 02:31:13,480
Speaker 1: also very difficult because the resource in the given area

2528
02:31:13,680 --> 02:31:17,760
Speaker 1: is very limited and Bangladesh itself is a small country

2529
02:31:17,879 --> 02:31:22,400
Speaker 1: with with with limited resource and and we should always

2530
02:31:22,720 --> 02:31:27,440
Speaker 1: appreciate Bangladeship people and BANGLADESHIH government to open their arms

2531
02:31:27,480 --> 02:31:30,920
Speaker 1: and hurt to to to absorbs and and and a

2532
02:31:31,000 --> 02:31:33,920
Speaker 1: median people and and and and again. I think the

2533
02:31:34,040 --> 02:31:36,720
Speaker 1: problems started in Me and Mare and and the solutions

2534
02:31:36,800 --> 02:31:38,600
Speaker 1: need to be in Me and Mar and and people

2535
02:31:38,680 --> 02:31:42,200
Speaker 1: need to be going with say dignified h way to

2536
02:31:42,320 --> 02:31:45,800
Speaker 1: the place of origin. And and of course Bangladesh. It

2537
02:31:45,879 --> 02:31:48,200
Speaker 1: has been five years plus now that the people like

2538
02:31:48,360 --> 02:31:51,960
Speaker 1: the largest influx took place in Sucer and seventeen uh

2539
02:31:52,040 --> 02:31:55,240
Speaker 1: and there were repatricans settem being made and and the

2540
02:31:55,680 --> 02:31:58,560
Speaker 1: when people fled from My and Mar jump into the

2541
02:31:58,640 --> 02:32:01,520
Speaker 1: Nap River and be of bang all into those seventeen

2542
02:32:01,560 --> 02:32:06,160
Speaker 1: because the land was more dangerous than the sea. Situations

2543
02:32:06,200 --> 02:32:09,080
Speaker 1: remained very same or even worse than that now in

2544
02:32:09,240 --> 02:32:11,480
Speaker 1: in in mire Mar to be going back, so you

2545
02:32:12,080 --> 02:32:15,480
Speaker 1: you escape from a grape that you have buried, uh

2546
02:32:16,600 --> 02:32:19,920
Speaker 1: to be killed and being pushed to go back to

2547
02:32:20,200 --> 02:32:21,840
Speaker 1: to to me and mark it is as being sent

2548
02:32:21,959 --> 02:32:23,960
Speaker 1: him back to to the to the grape that you

2549
02:32:24,080 --> 02:32:28,200
Speaker 1: escape from from from dying. Uh. So the situation doesn't

2550
02:32:28,240 --> 02:32:31,960
Speaker 1: favor for a safe, dignified, voluntary return for the for

2551
02:32:32,080 --> 02:32:36,120
Speaker 1: the Reinga. That's Bangladeshi authorities are trying to find different

2552
02:32:36,160 --> 02:32:39,520
Speaker 1: innovative modality in different ways how to how to create

2553
02:32:40,120 --> 02:32:44,280
Speaker 1: sustainable situations for the renga, including relocations of the of

2554
02:32:44,360 --> 02:32:46,920
Speaker 1: the certain number of the of the of the Inga

2555
02:32:47,000 --> 02:32:52,040
Speaker 1: populations because the the the camps are very congested and

2556
02:32:52,120 --> 02:32:55,000
Speaker 1: the hygiene level in the camp a very low and

2557
02:32:55,120 --> 02:32:58,000
Speaker 1: there are a lot of also the the the crowd

2558
02:32:58,120 --> 02:33:00,080
Speaker 1: on like you know, if a million people in a

2559
02:33:00,160 --> 02:33:06,120
Speaker 1: small scale place like that's are being being closed, anything

2560
02:33:06,200 --> 02:33:10,039
Speaker 1: could happen anytime, you know. So the the the idea

2561
02:33:10,200 --> 02:33:13,360
Speaker 1: was too by the Bangladeshi government which doesn't fall into

2562
02:33:13,959 --> 02:33:17,200
Speaker 1: into the principle of international way of doing things, and

2563
02:33:17,760 --> 02:33:21,320
Speaker 1: and relocating some of these refugees to an island that

2564
02:33:21,560 --> 02:33:25,000
Speaker 1: has its a new islands. You know, human being has

2565
02:33:25,080 --> 02:33:28,360
Speaker 1: been ever lived there, and the island has been technically

2566
02:33:28,840 --> 02:33:33,120
Speaker 1: from various technical assessment has identified it's not livable by

2567
02:33:33,240 --> 02:33:35,040
Speaker 1: human being yet. And because there are a lot of

2568
02:33:35,520 --> 02:33:38,640
Speaker 1: like cyclones and and and flats and things like that,

2569
02:33:38,760 --> 02:33:41,800
Speaker 1: and it's very far away from millions of Bangladesh and

2570
02:33:41,920 --> 02:33:46,199
Speaker 1: and it yeah, so there is risk from UH from

2571
02:33:46,320 --> 02:33:50,279
Speaker 1: various perspective to be able. But despite this, Bangldeshi government

2572
02:33:50,360 --> 02:33:54,880
Speaker 1: has built, sheltered this and relocated UH some numbers of

2573
02:33:55,080 --> 02:33:59,120
Speaker 1: Rhinga and some of them went by their own will

2574
02:34:00,320 --> 02:34:02,400
Speaker 1: seeing that it might be a different and and some

2575
02:34:03,200 --> 02:34:06,360
Speaker 1: being maybe perhaps post and and of course there are

2576
02:34:06,360 --> 02:34:09,720
Speaker 1: a certain number of like around close to UH five

2577
02:34:09,800 --> 02:34:13,480
Speaker 1: to six thousand people in Norman's Land when Bangladesh at

2578
02:34:13,520 --> 02:34:17,120
Speaker 1: the beginning did not open its border when we're felleing

2579
02:34:18,280 --> 02:34:20,560
Speaker 1: and so this Norman Land we're being occupied by the

2580
02:34:20,640 --> 02:34:23,720
Speaker 1: nearby abilities because Bangladesh wouldn't open the gate for them

2581
02:34:23,800 --> 02:34:26,240
Speaker 1: and they were stuck in India. So they have happened

2582
02:34:26,280 --> 02:34:30,080
Speaker 1: to be stuck there since the last five years. Uh

2583
02:34:30,240 --> 02:34:34,840
Speaker 1: and the remaining lives in in in coxwas a districts

2584
02:34:34,959 --> 02:34:40,840
Speaker 1: of of Bangladesh in different parts of this this districts.

2585
02:34:40,840 --> 02:34:43,880
Speaker 1: So that's the situation. Yeah, that's very well said, and

2586
02:34:43,959 --> 02:34:48,400
Speaker 1: it's some people have have taken on recently leaving these

2587
02:34:48,440 --> 02:34:53,039
Speaker 1: camps in Bangladesh. They've taken on this very risky boat journey, right,

2588
02:34:53,240 --> 02:34:55,160
Speaker 1: I think they're going to places like Malaysia if I'm

2589
02:34:55,160 --> 02:34:58,360
Speaker 1: not taken Intonesia, And can you explain a little bit

2590
02:34:58,360 --> 02:35:00,120
Speaker 1: about like how prevalent that is in the co It's

2591
02:35:00,160 --> 02:35:02,560
Speaker 1: how incredibly like high riscued it is for people to

2592
02:35:02,640 --> 02:35:07,800
Speaker 1: take that journey. Sure, the the situations in the camp

2593
02:35:08,520 --> 02:35:11,880
Speaker 1: is not much different than the life that they used

2594
02:35:11,879 --> 02:35:15,280
Speaker 1: to live in in Indian mar Despite that, the level

2595
02:35:15,360 --> 02:35:19,920
Speaker 1: of the level of human rights violations and the treatment

2596
02:35:20,000 --> 02:35:22,280
Speaker 1: that they are having may not be the same. But

2597
02:35:22,640 --> 02:35:25,840
Speaker 1: Bangladesh is not a signature to nineteen fifty two Refugee

2598
02:35:25,840 --> 02:35:30,280
Speaker 1: Conventions and it's not legally obliged to be to be

2599
02:35:30,360 --> 02:35:34,360
Speaker 1: following all international norms and protocols to be to be

2600
02:35:34,840 --> 02:35:38,400
Speaker 1: hosting the the the the refugees. But despite they have

2601
02:35:38,520 --> 02:35:43,240
Speaker 1: demonstrated the humanity UH and demonstrated the moral obligations towards

2602
02:35:43,240 --> 02:35:47,160
Speaker 1: the humanity to to host the Median people and the

2603
02:35:48,640 --> 02:35:51,760
Speaker 1: then the million people. Some of them has been from

2604
02:35:52,760 --> 02:35:55,080
Speaker 1: ight and some of them are from nineteen, some of

2605
02:35:55,160 --> 02:35:59,120
Speaker 1: them are from two seventeen. Has a very dark future.

2606
02:35:59,320 --> 02:36:02,480
Speaker 1: They are closed in this fence camp and the movements

2607
02:36:02,520 --> 02:36:07,320
Speaker 1: are restricted. Access to informations are not given like the

2608
02:36:07,400 --> 02:36:10,800
Speaker 1: interne Access to informations are are like internet service and

2609
02:36:10,879 --> 02:36:13,480
Speaker 1: things like that has been denied. Access to livelihoods are

2610
02:36:13,560 --> 02:36:16,440
Speaker 1: denied and they're not able to legally work and solely

2611
02:36:16,520 --> 02:36:19,840
Speaker 1: rely onto to the International Humanity and assistem. Access to

2612
02:36:19,920 --> 02:36:23,160
Speaker 1: education has been denied. So the young people who are

2613
02:36:23,160 --> 02:36:25,400
Speaker 1: growing in this camp does not see a future that

2614
02:36:25,520 --> 02:36:27,120
Speaker 1: they will be able to go back to me and

2615
02:36:27,200 --> 02:36:29,879
Speaker 1: mar or if they live here as if you're living

2616
02:36:30,000 --> 02:36:33,120
Speaker 1: a debt, like you know, you don't have any any

2617
02:36:33,200 --> 02:36:35,920
Speaker 1: any way for what's seeing a bright fishure. So there

2618
02:36:36,040 --> 02:36:39,080
Speaker 1: is there is the only they don't have a best

2619
02:36:39,120 --> 02:36:43,280
Speaker 1: alternative to be trying to be exploring different paths and

2620
02:36:43,320 --> 02:36:46,440
Speaker 1: the only path it's happened to be is being created

2621
02:36:46,560 --> 02:36:50,040
Speaker 1: in the past. UH. In the past by some ruhingas

2622
02:36:50,080 --> 02:36:53,879
Speaker 1: taking these boats and making to Malaysia where they could

2623
02:36:54,080 --> 02:36:56,600
Speaker 1: do some domestic works and get a refugee status and

2624
02:36:56,760 --> 02:37:00,680
Speaker 1: maybe able to work, and and some were lucky enough

2625
02:37:00,760 --> 02:37:03,959
Speaker 1: to be resettled in the third country, a small number

2626
02:37:04,360 --> 02:37:06,720
Speaker 1: maybe less than two less than to three percent of

2627
02:37:06,760 --> 02:37:11,560
Speaker 1: the total total Ladyshire. So the journey is very risky.

2628
02:37:11,720 --> 02:37:14,840
Speaker 1: The the the the boats that they are taking the

2629
02:37:15,400 --> 02:37:18,000
Speaker 1: first the sea is very rough that they take, and

2630
02:37:18,120 --> 02:37:22,240
Speaker 1: their the infrastructure, both infrastructure that they're taking are not

2631
02:37:23,400 --> 02:37:26,480
Speaker 1: built like they not built in any way to be

2632
02:37:26,560 --> 02:37:29,920
Speaker 1: coping with this rough sea and rough rough weathers and climates.

2633
02:37:29,959 --> 02:37:33,080
Speaker 1: So many of these hunger people who make this less

2634
02:37:33,120 --> 02:37:35,280
Speaker 1: than fifty percent of them may make it to the

2635
02:37:35,400 --> 02:37:38,400
Speaker 1: to the destinations. Either they die on the sea, or

2636
02:37:38,440 --> 02:37:40,720
Speaker 1: they are being arrested by different navies and and and

2637
02:37:41,120 --> 02:37:45,120
Speaker 1: or they are they are being jailed by by Mia

2638
02:37:45,720 --> 02:37:48,560
Speaker 1: Mia and mar Junta. And in two thousand twenty two

2639
02:37:48,800 --> 02:37:51,400
Speaker 1: loan three thousand, five hundred more than three thousand, five

2640
02:37:51,480 --> 02:37:55,800
Speaker 1: hundred people including children as young as two years old,

2641
02:37:55,840 --> 02:37:59,040
Speaker 1: are jail to five years for trying to attempt to

2642
02:37:59,320 --> 02:38:02,880
Speaker 1: to go to easier So this is this is what

2643
02:38:03,040 --> 02:38:06,920
Speaker 1: it is happening, so the the life is meaningless there.

2644
02:38:07,040 --> 02:38:10,120
Speaker 1: And of course taking this journey mine that you're toosing

2645
02:38:10,280 --> 02:38:14,080
Speaker 1: a coin whether you get a tail or you get

2646
02:38:14,959 --> 02:38:16,680
Speaker 1: you get head or you got tails, you know, and

2647
02:38:16,959 --> 02:38:20,080
Speaker 1: and and so it's like betting your life whether if

2648
02:38:20,120 --> 02:38:24,000
Speaker 1: you make it, you're you're a life to somewhat level meaningful.

2649
02:38:24,120 --> 02:38:25,680
Speaker 1: If you don't make it your life and it is

2650
02:38:25,680 --> 02:38:26,960
Speaker 1: more or less the same that you will live in

2651
02:38:27,000 --> 02:38:29,800
Speaker 1: there in there. So that's why these are the push factors,

2652
02:38:29,879 --> 02:38:32,880
Speaker 1: and of course they are full factors reunifications. If a

2653
02:38:32,959 --> 02:38:36,720
Speaker 1: son has made UH three years ago, five years ago

2654
02:38:37,160 --> 02:38:40,640
Speaker 1: to to Malaysia and working in the constructions or or

2655
02:38:40,800 --> 02:38:43,960
Speaker 1: or or or or gardening like levers and and you

2656
02:38:44,080 --> 02:38:46,520
Speaker 1: have a remaining family in the camp and you don't

2657
02:38:46,520 --> 02:38:48,760
Speaker 1: want to see your family in that situation, and you're

2658
02:38:48,760 --> 02:38:51,440
Speaker 1: gonna bring your family kids or children's or wife and

2659
02:38:51,680 --> 02:38:54,320
Speaker 1: you do that. And lastly, also they are growing youth

2660
02:38:54,440 --> 02:38:57,200
Speaker 1: in Malaysia who are who want to marry thee and

2661
02:38:57,280 --> 02:38:59,640
Speaker 1: maintain the culture and language and things like that, so

2662
02:38:59,760 --> 02:39:02,480
Speaker 1: they want to have rights bringing from the camp and

2663
02:39:02,640 --> 02:39:06,600
Speaker 1: and so they're they're different push factor pull factor as

2664
02:39:06,640 --> 02:39:09,960
Speaker 1: well from from Malaysia, but the primary factor is the

2665
02:39:10,000 --> 02:39:14,160
Speaker 1: push factor in India and Martin in Bangladesh, right, yeah,

2666
02:39:14,240 --> 02:39:17,240
Speaker 1: and it's it's perfectly reasonable for people to want, so yeah,

2667
02:39:17,400 --> 02:39:20,600
Speaker 1: some futures and some chance to realize their own life

2668
02:39:20,640 --> 02:39:24,320
Speaker 1: and their goals. So can you explain people will probably

2669
02:39:24,360 --> 02:39:27,880
Speaker 1: have seen like I think we're recording this on Thursday, UM,

2670
02:39:28,280 --> 02:39:30,480
Speaker 1: which is the look at the date of the nineteen

2671
02:39:31,480 --> 02:39:33,600
Speaker 1: and people will have seen the last couple of days

2672
02:39:33,680 --> 02:39:38,360
Speaker 1: maybe videos of fires in no Man's land, and they

2673
02:39:38,400 --> 02:39:41,800
Speaker 1: will probably have seen like some acronyms, which are a

2674
02:39:41,840 --> 02:39:43,960
Speaker 1: lot of acronyms when when you're reading about me M

2675
02:39:44,040 --> 02:39:46,880
Speaker 1: I can be very confusing. So could you explain a

2676
02:39:46,920 --> 02:39:50,240
Speaker 1: little bit about who these two groups that we've seen,

2677
02:39:50,360 --> 02:39:51,960
Speaker 1: right the A R S A and the R s O,

2678
02:39:52,720 --> 02:39:55,800
Speaker 1: who they are and what they what they represent, and

2679
02:39:56,080 --> 02:39:59,520
Speaker 1: perhaps why these two groups who are nominally Brahingia are

2680
02:39:59,560 --> 02:40:03,480
Speaker 1: fighting each other. So the in the context of ME

2681
02:40:03,600 --> 02:40:08,879
Speaker 1: and MATH politics, the ethnic people UH has been fighting

2682
02:40:09,040 --> 02:40:12,480
Speaker 1: for decades and and and decades UH with ME and

2683
02:40:12,560 --> 02:40:18,560
Speaker 1: mom milstry and Bamah supremacy like larger majority supremacy UH.

2684
02:40:19,720 --> 02:40:22,480
Speaker 1: At the beginning, they were attempted during the time of

2685
02:40:22,560 --> 02:40:28,119
Speaker 1: independency through reconciliations and dial of meaning like without arms.

2686
02:40:29,160 --> 02:40:34,840
Speaker 1: But the language again being understood by the by the

2687
02:40:35,280 --> 02:40:38,800
Speaker 1: Myanmar larger majority, is the language that they speak as well.

2688
02:40:39,240 --> 02:40:41,880
Speaker 1: So then ethnic people started to grab the arms and

2689
02:40:42,959 --> 02:40:47,760
Speaker 1: resist control their territory to uh to attempted to control

2690
02:40:47,800 --> 02:40:51,160
Speaker 1: the territory in order to get the equal right and

2691
02:40:52,240 --> 02:40:54,959
Speaker 1: decide for their own future, be part of the decisions

2692
02:40:55,000 --> 02:40:59,000
Speaker 1: that collectively impact the nations and and basically equal right,

2693
02:40:59,160 --> 02:41:01,680
Speaker 1: justice and and and those those things. That's what ethnic

2694
02:41:01,720 --> 02:41:06,960
Speaker 1: people are are fighting for and giving their lives and

2695
02:41:07,080 --> 02:41:09,880
Speaker 1: livelihoods uh. It's nothing less than that and nothing more

2696
02:41:09,920 --> 02:41:12,400
Speaker 1: than That's very simple. We want to live with dignity

2697
02:41:12,680 --> 02:41:16,600
Speaker 1: freely equally with anyone else. And and so many ethnic

2698
02:41:16,680 --> 02:41:20,640
Speaker 1: revolutionary organizations forms came came up in different part of

2699
02:41:20,720 --> 02:41:25,040
Speaker 1: me and Mar representing different ethnic and Ruhenga also used

2700
02:41:25,040 --> 02:41:27,360
Speaker 1: to be one of those back in nineteen fifty uh

2701
02:41:28,080 --> 02:41:32,200
Speaker 1: for after nineteen forty eight dependent and nineteen fifty two,

2702
02:41:32,320 --> 02:41:34,920
Speaker 1: Ruheinga is the first one to drop the gun in

2703
02:41:35,000 --> 02:41:37,240
Speaker 1: a change of the peace with the government, saying that

2704
02:41:37,640 --> 02:41:39,320
Speaker 1: we are peace loving people and as long as you

2705
02:41:39,400 --> 02:41:42,520
Speaker 1: give us what what what our identity and and and

2706
02:41:42,640 --> 02:41:45,640
Speaker 1: we're able to and we are. So then there's a

2707
02:41:45,760 --> 02:41:47,840
Speaker 1: certain period of time that the Ruhenga people did not

2708
02:41:48,000 --> 02:41:52,760
Speaker 1: have an arm oppositions group because I am someone who

2709
02:41:53,200 --> 02:41:56,000
Speaker 1: believe in non violent movement, but in a context like

2710
02:41:56,120 --> 02:41:59,560
Speaker 1: me and mar Again, non violence movement wouldn't go anywhere

2711
02:41:59,800 --> 02:42:03,560
Speaker 1: if it's worked seventy years. Uh wouldn't have the longest

2712
02:42:04,000 --> 02:42:07,360
Speaker 1: singular war in the world more than seventy years, right,

2713
02:42:07,640 --> 02:42:10,480
Speaker 1: So we need to be practical and seeing the reality

2714
02:42:10,920 --> 02:42:15,600
Speaker 1: like that. So then uh, then again these things happened,

2715
02:42:15,920 --> 02:42:18,720
Speaker 1: and then and the Ruhinga things. Okay, then what we

2716
02:42:18,760 --> 02:42:22,080
Speaker 1: have been promised and what we have were we're being

2717
02:42:23,000 --> 02:42:26,440
Speaker 1: told to be promised to be given is not given.

2718
02:42:26,520 --> 02:42:28,960
Speaker 1: So we have to grab the gun again and form

2719
02:42:29,240 --> 02:42:31,880
Speaker 1: U do as the others are doing in order to

2720
02:42:32,120 --> 02:42:35,440
Speaker 1: to uh. So, the Ruhinga Solidarity Organization has been formed

2721
02:42:35,520 --> 02:42:38,800
Speaker 1: and it has been one of the popular organizations, getting

2722
02:42:38,920 --> 02:42:41,920
Speaker 1: a lot of popularity from the Ruhinga community. And then

2723
02:42:42,000 --> 02:42:44,920
Speaker 1: there were issues within the institution that has been growing.

2724
02:42:44,959 --> 02:42:48,440
Speaker 1: Of course, uh they were not able to maintain uh,

2725
02:42:48,680 --> 02:42:52,840
Speaker 1: the the institutional growth and institutional resource managements. And then

2726
02:42:52,879 --> 02:42:56,320
Speaker 1: the institution collapse and as well as it has to

2727
02:42:56,400 --> 02:42:58,560
Speaker 1: do something with that, like you don't have a territory

2728
02:42:58,680 --> 02:43:03,000
Speaker 1: like other other other arm oppositions group will will be

2729
02:43:03,120 --> 02:43:06,520
Speaker 1: in stations in me and Mark where we're stations in

2730
02:43:06,560 --> 02:43:10,320
Speaker 1: Bangladesh and Bangladesh government were not really supporting and not

2731
02:43:10,920 --> 02:43:15,400
Speaker 1: for them to survive with with with to enhandle its

2732
02:43:15,440 --> 02:43:18,640
Speaker 1: military capability. And of course there are several other other

2733
02:43:18,800 --> 02:43:22,640
Speaker 1: other things and and so then it's disappeared in between

2734
02:43:22,720 --> 02:43:26,240
Speaker 1: and then and two thousand fourteen. Uh, this guy, a

2735
02:43:26,280 --> 02:43:31,360
Speaker 1: guy called um this the guy who is leading currently

2736
02:43:31,440 --> 02:43:36,080
Speaker 1: the the the are se Arkanslevations Army who was born

2737
02:43:36,120 --> 02:43:41,240
Speaker 1: in in Pakistan and grew up in Saudi Arabia. His parents,

2738
02:43:42,480 --> 02:43:45,800
Speaker 1: he claimed his parents is Rhingen. Of course, uh he

2739
02:43:45,879 --> 02:43:48,280
Speaker 1: speaks the ring language. That's mean, it's indicated that he

2740
02:43:48,640 --> 02:43:51,920
Speaker 1: uh he's and came to to our kind of state

2741
02:43:52,040 --> 02:43:54,400
Speaker 1: to mobilize people saying that you needed to grab the gun.

2742
02:43:54,480 --> 02:43:58,480
Speaker 1: And this is what then people of course who have

2743
02:43:58,680 --> 02:44:01,680
Speaker 1: critical thinking skills and not believe into things because it's

2744
02:44:01,720 --> 02:44:04,680
Speaker 1: need to be from and within, and someone who does

2745
02:44:04,760 --> 02:44:08,199
Speaker 1: not understand how many and more politics look like cannot

2746
02:44:08,280 --> 02:44:11,560
Speaker 1: lead revolutions because revolutionary has to do a lot with

2747
02:44:11,640 --> 02:44:14,720
Speaker 1: the with the politics political landscape as well in the

2748
02:44:14,800 --> 02:44:17,440
Speaker 1: country and and uh but however there's a certain number

2749
02:44:17,440 --> 02:44:20,320
Speaker 1: of people who believe in it in very small numbers,

2750
02:44:20,720 --> 02:44:24,480
Speaker 1: and UH and Inga didn't want to again fight or

2751
02:44:24,680 --> 02:44:27,680
Speaker 1: or entry into violence, and they just want to live peacefully.

2752
02:44:27,800 --> 02:44:32,560
Speaker 1: And and that uh and today are resilient to to

2753
02:44:32,720 --> 02:44:37,560
Speaker 1: the to to what they're trying to UH gain equally

2754
02:44:37,600 --> 02:44:42,200
Speaker 1: as others. And and so then our consolvation Servey um

2755
02:44:43,160 --> 02:44:46,560
Speaker 1: e r S. He has attacked the post thirty different

2756
02:44:46,600 --> 02:44:49,840
Speaker 1: police forced in two thousand seventeen. That's where the collective

2757
02:44:49,879 --> 02:44:51,920
Speaker 1: punishment has been given as a result of the ring

2758
02:44:52,400 --> 02:44:56,280
Speaker 1: Ruhinga community. And it's not collective collective action. It was

2759
02:44:56,440 --> 02:45:01,080
Speaker 1: individual's action. Certain hundreds of people gather together and at

2760
02:45:01,120 --> 02:45:03,560
Speaker 1: tem police force and and and the whole regae population

2761
02:45:03,600 --> 02:45:06,160
Speaker 1: has been punished. So then followed by that as well,

2762
02:45:06,200 --> 02:45:09,800
Speaker 1: ours has been free student of judging themselves. And then

2763
02:45:10,200 --> 02:45:15,160
Speaker 1: so our are ruing A solebrity organizations also pop up

2764
02:45:15,200 --> 02:45:19,960
Speaker 1: parlelly back into nineteen and and and of course the

2765
02:45:20,600 --> 02:45:24,560
Speaker 1: ideology that they stent are slightly different from one another,

2766
02:45:25,080 --> 02:45:29,560
Speaker 1: and so they they they that's why the clash happened.

2767
02:45:29,640 --> 02:45:35,640
Speaker 1: And and UH ring A Solitary organization think that like

2768
02:45:35,800 --> 02:45:38,800
Speaker 1: the way that ours has been conducting and they're responsible.

2769
02:45:38,840 --> 02:45:41,680
Speaker 1: They they for what happened to the Ruhinga people as

2770
02:45:41,720 --> 02:45:45,600
Speaker 1: as collectively genocides and things I think like that, creating

2771
02:45:45,640 --> 02:45:49,280
Speaker 1: opportunities for Burmese military to to wipe out through Hingen,

2772
02:45:49,360 --> 02:45:53,680
Speaker 1: deported through Hunga. And so they were this political disagreement

2773
02:45:53,760 --> 02:45:56,120
Speaker 1: between these two groups and this no one land has

2774
02:45:56,160 --> 02:46:00,760
Speaker 1: been mostly occupied within the Ruhinga refugees. There some are

2775
02:46:00,800 --> 02:46:04,280
Speaker 1: some members are often try to to enter there and

2776
02:46:04,879 --> 02:46:09,200
Speaker 1: and and stations there and so recently UH the what

2777
02:46:09,400 --> 02:46:12,680
Speaker 1: we have learned from the ground is that our ringous

2778
02:46:12,680 --> 02:46:17,560
Speaker 1: solidarity organizations UH route out and operations to remove them

2779
02:46:17,600 --> 02:46:20,720
Speaker 1: from there and so that the Ringery within the normal

2780
02:46:20,840 --> 02:46:23,520
Speaker 1: lands could live peacefully without crimes and things like that.

2781
02:46:24,160 --> 02:46:27,720
Speaker 1: And and that's how the fighters started and and it's

2782
02:46:27,840 --> 02:46:31,480
Speaker 1: escalated and there were two hundred houses being burned on

2783
02:46:32,000 --> 02:46:35,920
Speaker 1: shelters ring refugee shelters. Around two thousand, five hundred to

2784
02:46:36,000 --> 02:46:41,080
Speaker 1: three thousand people has been UH has to be displaced.

2785
02:46:41,720 --> 02:46:45,120
Speaker 1: They were not allowed to enter to Bangladesh because normal

2786
02:46:45,240 --> 02:46:47,959
Speaker 1: land is not accessible by neither parties and and it's

2787
02:46:48,040 --> 02:46:50,760
Speaker 1: it's just in between. So some of them has destroyed

2788
02:46:50,800 --> 02:46:53,160
Speaker 1: the fans toward to Burma and enter to their because

2789
02:46:53,200 --> 02:46:55,240
Speaker 1: they just from the nearby abilities. They could see their

2790
02:46:55,280 --> 02:46:57,640
Speaker 1: abilities for five years, but they could not go back,

2791
02:46:58,120 --> 02:47:03,200
Speaker 1: so they so they so they went back there. But

2792
02:47:03,400 --> 02:47:06,680
Speaker 1: now myrmam latry is pushing them out from from there

2793
02:47:06,800 --> 02:47:10,760
Speaker 1: back to the Norman lands. Yeah, it's just yeah, a

2794
02:47:10,879 --> 02:47:15,680
Speaker 1: terrible situation. Um and thebilities are the only armed groups

2795
02:47:15,760 --> 02:47:17,560
Speaker 1: in that state, right there are other round groups, but

2796
02:47:17,720 --> 02:47:20,960
Speaker 1: like this, this sort of explains it more succinctly, Like

2797
02:47:21,040 --> 02:47:22,840
Speaker 1: if we get into the other round groups, it gets

2798
02:47:22,879 --> 02:47:27,600
Speaker 1: even more complicated. And so I wonder what people listening,

2799
02:47:27,680 --> 02:47:32,400
Speaker 1: obviously will They've they've heard a lot about about the

2800
02:47:32,840 --> 02:47:35,760
Speaker 1: conflict in Burma, about the various different groups that are

2801
02:47:35,800 --> 02:47:39,840
Speaker 1: being persecuted by the Burmese military. How can they help

2802
02:47:40,000 --> 02:47:43,160
Speaker 1: specifically with this issue? Is is there ways that people

2803
02:47:43,240 --> 02:47:48,400
Speaker 1: can can help out? I think we have seen how

2804
02:47:48,480 --> 02:47:54,439
Speaker 1: the world came together to help Ukraine people unjustly illegally

2805
02:47:55,440 --> 02:48:00,040
Speaker 1: to be attacked by by Russia and and threatening the

2806
02:48:00,120 --> 02:48:03,360
Speaker 1: democratic society of the world. And and that has been

2807
02:48:03,440 --> 02:48:06,760
Speaker 1: very inspiring appreciated and and and we stand with the

2808
02:48:06,840 --> 02:48:10,480
Speaker 1: Ukrainian people and people in Burmah has the life of

2809
02:48:10,560 --> 02:48:12,960
Speaker 1: the value of the life of the people in Burma

2810
02:48:13,080 --> 02:48:16,280
Speaker 1: has also there is no difference in life. You can

2811
02:48:16,400 --> 02:48:19,640
Speaker 1: buy one, you know. So we have been the people

2812
02:48:19,680 --> 02:48:23,600
Speaker 1: in Myanmar has been fighting for for UH the cost

2813
02:48:23,680 --> 02:48:26,920
Speaker 1: of life and livelihoods today with whatever means that they

2814
02:48:27,000 --> 02:48:29,279
Speaker 1: have to make this country back to the part of democracy.

2815
02:48:29,800 --> 02:48:34,800
Speaker 1: And and so international community should do beyond releasing the

2816
02:48:34,920 --> 02:48:38,960
Speaker 1: statement or or or of concern. And a statement of

2817
02:48:39,080 --> 02:48:42,720
Speaker 1: concern maybe maybe may name and shame and may put

2818
02:48:42,800 --> 02:48:48,080
Speaker 1: political pressure and political pressure. UH is not they think

2819
02:48:48,160 --> 02:48:50,960
Speaker 1: that being cared by by the by the by the junta.

2820
02:48:51,440 --> 02:48:55,080
Speaker 1: So the the the total enemy of the overall people,

2821
02:48:55,120 --> 02:48:58,760
Speaker 1: including drinking people, are the military and and and they're

2822
02:48:58,800 --> 02:49:00,960
Speaker 1: the one who has destroyed this country. And they're beyond

2823
02:49:01,000 --> 02:49:04,480
Speaker 1: who is destroying and they are responsible primarily responsible um

2824
02:49:05,040 --> 02:49:08,320
Speaker 1: people institutions who wiped out through ungen, who carried all

2825
02:49:08,360 --> 02:49:12,120
Speaker 1: the genocide. So I think the international community should do

2826
02:49:12,440 --> 02:49:18,279
Speaker 1: beyond beyond sanctions, arm embargo and and and respective citizens

2827
02:49:19,200 --> 02:49:21,800
Speaker 1: of the country should claim to their respective government to

2828
02:49:21,920 --> 02:49:25,000
Speaker 1: do more for Purmes people and the Runga people to

2829
02:49:25,120 --> 02:49:28,960
Speaker 1: deministrate the moral obligations to war to the humanity. And

2830
02:49:29,120 --> 02:49:32,199
Speaker 1: in twenty one century genocides took place while the world

2831
02:49:32,320 --> 02:49:36,879
Speaker 1: was watching, and we set in the United Nations back

2832
02:49:36,920 --> 02:49:42,600
Speaker 1: in nineteen uh nineteen fifty forty eight that never again.

2833
02:49:43,200 --> 02:49:48,199
Speaker 1: And and it's very shameful that it could, that genocide

2834
02:49:48,200 --> 02:49:50,680
Speaker 1: could take place in the eyes of eight billion people

2835
02:49:50,720 --> 02:49:53,959
Speaker 1: in twenty century and modern age and the world failed

2836
02:49:55,320 --> 02:49:59,800
Speaker 1: to protect the Runga. This party. There has been compelling stories,

2837
02:50:00,040 --> 02:50:03,920
Speaker 1: immages and settle actories and and and still it's continued

2838
02:50:04,000 --> 02:50:07,640
Speaker 1: to be so and followed by that crimes against community,

2839
02:50:07,720 --> 02:50:10,960
Speaker 1: war crimes has been being committed continually by the by

2840
02:50:11,000 --> 02:50:14,520
Speaker 1: the same military that committed genocide. And I think the

2841
02:50:14,600 --> 02:50:19,360
Speaker 1: international community will have at some point to answer to

2842
02:50:19,480 --> 02:50:25,000
Speaker 1: themselves on their beliefs of the humanity. Yeah, like I

2843
02:50:25,080 --> 02:50:28,000
Speaker 1: think the international community let's happen for too long, and

2844
02:50:28,080 --> 02:50:30,640
Speaker 1: they ignored it for too long, and then now it

2845
02:50:30,760 --> 02:50:33,760
Speaker 1: always happens right Like it's like for Coast Boomerang, the

2846
02:50:33,879 --> 02:50:37,920
Speaker 1: violence spreads and gets used in the metropol and it's

2847
02:50:37,959 --> 02:50:40,120
Speaker 1: deeply upsetting. What does that support look like from the

2848
02:50:40,160 --> 02:50:46,160
Speaker 1: international community like does that mean ah Man pads for PDF?

2849
02:50:46,640 --> 02:50:49,800
Speaker 1: Does it mean recognizing the National Unity Government? Like what

2850
02:50:50,000 --> 02:50:55,279
Speaker 1: concrete things should the community be doing? The international community

2851
02:50:55,320 --> 02:51:01,600
Speaker 1: should recognize there again, the there are some issues that

2852
02:51:01,760 --> 02:51:04,960
Speaker 1: need to be fixed within the the the National Unity Government,

2853
02:51:05,160 --> 02:51:10,080
Speaker 1: particularly the inclusions of the Ruhinga and other like it's

2854
02:51:10,320 --> 02:51:13,959
Speaker 1: it's positions to to the religious, other religious and ethnic minorities,

2855
02:51:14,000 --> 02:51:17,199
Speaker 1: particularly those are small and that need to be fixed.

2856
02:51:17,480 --> 02:51:21,040
Speaker 1: And international community should do it in an incentivice way

2857
02:51:21,200 --> 02:51:23,680
Speaker 1: that Okay, you do this and we will do this

2858
02:51:23,840 --> 02:51:28,160
Speaker 1: for you, and and and the recognitions come with incentive

2859
02:51:28,240 --> 02:51:34,160
Speaker 1: of supporting, uh, supporting because it's only legitimate. Whether we

2860
02:51:34,240 --> 02:51:37,120
Speaker 1: like the National Unity Government or not. We don't have

2861
02:51:37,200 --> 02:51:42,040
Speaker 1: the best alternative to it. It's democratically elected. And and

2862
02:51:42,240 --> 02:51:44,560
Speaker 1: there is a lot of issues within the within the

2863
02:51:44,800 --> 02:51:49,280
Speaker 1: within the within the the National Unity Government, particularly when

2864
02:51:49,320 --> 02:51:51,680
Speaker 1: it's come to the rocking issues. So these need to

2865
02:51:51,760 --> 02:51:53,840
Speaker 1: be dealt in in National Energy Government. I have been

2866
02:51:53,920 --> 02:51:58,120
Speaker 1: consistently advising them to fix this, acting beyond policy and

2867
02:51:58,280 --> 02:52:03,880
Speaker 1: and and and showing state level prioritized agenda with concrete

2868
02:52:03,959 --> 02:52:08,000
Speaker 1: milestone to to to the change toward to the Rhinga UH.

2869
02:52:08,680 --> 02:52:11,760
Speaker 1: And of course, parallel to that, international community should ensure

2870
02:52:11,879 --> 02:52:15,320
Speaker 1: that big supports are being given, being recognized and and

2871
02:52:16,080 --> 02:52:19,280
Speaker 1: and and in order to win these revolutions, which has

2872
02:52:19,360 --> 02:52:25,040
Speaker 1: shaken the very institution that has consumed the resource of

2873
02:52:25,120 --> 02:52:28,400
Speaker 1: the country in various means and ways UH. Some UH

2874
02:52:28,640 --> 02:52:31,039
Speaker 1: and one of the strongest institution has been shaken by

2875
02:52:31,080 --> 02:52:34,920
Speaker 1: the young people UH with very small means that they

2876
02:52:34,920 --> 02:52:39,080
Speaker 1: are very small and time to time, very innovative and

2877
02:52:39,320 --> 02:52:42,760
Speaker 1: and and and utilizing whatever means that they had. An

2878
02:52:42,800 --> 02:52:47,280
Speaker 1: international community should provide support to PIA to be first

2879
02:52:47,360 --> 02:52:51,800
Speaker 1: and foremost institutionalizing and and and and capacity building enhancing

2880
02:52:52,320 --> 02:52:56,440
Speaker 1: acting upon international standard. We are UH way of operating

2881
02:52:56,480 --> 02:52:58,880
Speaker 1: as as a as a military group and and of

2882
02:52:59,000 --> 02:53:02,760
Speaker 1: course when you are being established as a as a

2883
02:53:02,840 --> 02:53:08,560
Speaker 1: military UH institutions and it's is it's being formed by

2884
02:53:08,640 --> 02:53:11,600
Speaker 1: the by the legal government of Myanmar. And to support

2885
02:53:11,720 --> 02:53:15,000
Speaker 1: this this this military and many many nations are getting

2886
02:53:15,040 --> 02:53:19,039
Speaker 1: military assistance package and and I think international communities should

2887
02:53:19,040 --> 02:53:22,240
Speaker 1: have no problem to provide military system package too. Of

2888
02:53:22,360 --> 02:53:25,240
Speaker 1: course in a very principles and value based with with

2889
02:53:25,280 --> 02:53:28,800
Speaker 1: the value baste approach and and and and and let's

2890
02:53:28,840 --> 02:53:31,720
Speaker 1: include the technical support to to to set up the

2891
02:53:31,800 --> 02:53:35,439
Speaker 1: mechanisms to held the accountable and to ensure the transparencient

2892
02:53:35,480 --> 02:53:39,240
Speaker 1: accountable across the spectrum. Yeah, yeah, I think that's that's

2893
02:53:39,360 --> 02:53:41,440
Speaker 1: very well said. And they do tend like if people

2894
02:53:41,480 --> 02:53:44,040
Speaker 1: aren't familiar with the way the PDFs have been organized

2895
02:53:44,120 --> 02:53:47,120
Speaker 1: like they they have been very respectful of like norms

2896
02:53:47,200 --> 02:53:49,680
Speaker 1: and laws of war and things like that, which obviously

2897
02:53:49,760 --> 02:53:55,360
Speaker 1: that these military have not. And I think an institutions

2898
02:53:55,440 --> 02:53:58,480
Speaker 1: that a group that has been with hundred hundred thousands

2899
02:53:58,480 --> 02:54:03,720
Speaker 1: of people, young people with no prior military experience and

2900
02:54:04,320 --> 02:54:09,199
Speaker 1: mostly operating in a very limited, uh to no resource

2901
02:54:09,320 --> 02:54:13,520
Speaker 1: context and being able to respect the human rights and

2902
02:54:13,920 --> 02:54:18,040
Speaker 1: human dignity should be recognized. You know there when you

2903
02:54:18,240 --> 02:54:21,000
Speaker 1: you have a gun, and there are there are things

2904
02:54:21,080 --> 02:54:23,520
Speaker 1: that happen and need to be justified in and and

2905
02:54:23,640 --> 02:54:27,040
Speaker 1: being held accountable for. But I'm saying that, I'm not

2906
02:54:27,120 --> 02:54:28,800
Speaker 1: saying that it should be a lot in any any

2907
02:54:28,840 --> 02:54:31,520
Speaker 1: any kind of misconduct within the military systems need to

2908
02:54:31,600 --> 02:54:34,840
Speaker 1: be investigated properly and take actions upon and held accountable

2909
02:54:35,120 --> 02:54:37,840
Speaker 1: those who gave these who carried out these actions, and

2910
02:54:37,920 --> 02:54:40,640
Speaker 1: who gave common to carry out this action but the

2911
02:54:40,720 --> 02:54:43,280
Speaker 1: number of cases related to the to the to the

2912
02:54:43,800 --> 02:54:48,640
Speaker 1: to the to the PDP has been significantly low. And

2913
02:54:49,040 --> 02:54:50,840
Speaker 1: when when it's come to the to the human right

2914
02:54:50,920 --> 02:54:54,320
Speaker 1: violations and and it has to be zero and then

2915
02:54:54,520 --> 02:54:57,440
Speaker 1: one is too much. But I'm saying compared to UH

2916
02:54:57,600 --> 02:55:00,520
Speaker 1: to UH and and and I think cont need support

2917
02:55:00,600 --> 02:55:02,880
Speaker 1: need to be given there in order to to to

2918
02:55:03,080 --> 02:55:06,640
Speaker 1: enhance their capacity to defeat the junta plus to defeat

2919
02:55:06,680 --> 02:55:09,920
Speaker 1: it in the principle and value based with the principle

2920
02:55:09,959 --> 02:55:14,360
Speaker 1: and value based approach. Yeah, yeah, certainly they could definitely do.

2921
02:55:14,480 --> 02:55:16,960
Speaker 1: Like the people we've spoken to a terribly equipped by

2922
02:55:17,000 --> 02:55:20,879
Speaker 1: any modern standards, incredibly brave and innovative. They could certainly

2923
02:55:20,959 --> 02:55:23,360
Speaker 1: do a lot better. They have a lot more. Okay,

2924
02:55:23,400 --> 02:55:25,640
Speaker 1: where can people if people want to follow along with

2925
02:55:25,800 --> 02:55:28,600
Speaker 1: your work, which is very impressive, how can they find you?

2926
02:55:28,720 --> 02:55:30,959
Speaker 1: Do you have like do you want to share your

2927
02:55:31,000 --> 02:55:34,440
Speaker 1: Twitter account or a website? Maybe? Where can people keep

2928
02:55:34,520 --> 02:55:37,200
Speaker 1: up with you? So? I am on Twitter and Facebook

2929
02:55:37,240 --> 02:55:41,120
Speaker 1: mostly and my tutor is a k move two UH

2930
02:55:41,280 --> 02:55:44,440
Speaker 1: and which you can see it's with my pictures and

2931
02:55:44,640 --> 02:55:47,320
Speaker 1: and I have put my bio as well there and

2932
02:55:47,400 --> 02:55:49,760
Speaker 1: I'm also also very active on the Facebook and what

2933
02:55:50,480 --> 02:55:52,840
Speaker 1: the work related. Most of the work that I do

2934
02:55:53,640 --> 02:55:58,480
Speaker 1: UH are being not everything, but some part that international

2935
02:55:58,520 --> 02:56:02,840
Speaker 1: community need to know are being portrait there. And particularly UH,

2936
02:56:03,640 --> 02:56:07,000
Speaker 1: the the human rights situations related to the Ruhinga and

2937
02:56:07,080 --> 02:56:12,240
Speaker 1: Rhinga in Bangladesh are being being being shared there in

2938
02:56:12,320 --> 02:56:15,440
Speaker 1: a timely, very timely manner. Sometimes even lives. You know,

2939
02:56:15,520 --> 02:56:20,760
Speaker 1: it's happening now and being and yeah, yeah, you've been

2940
02:56:20,879 --> 02:56:23,800
Speaker 1: very good at that. I poo your Twitter account. It's

2941
02:56:24,000 --> 02:56:26,320
Speaker 1: very informative and it helps me stay informed. So it's

2942
02:56:26,440 --> 02:56:28,880
Speaker 1: it's a k m o E two if people are

2943
02:56:29,879 --> 02:56:32,200
Speaker 1: searching for it. Thank you so much for giving us

2944
02:56:32,400 --> 02:56:34,520
Speaker 1: some of your evening. I really really appreciate your time.

2945
02:56:34,560 --> 02:56:36,119
Speaker 1: Is there anything else you want to get to before

2946
02:56:36,160 --> 02:56:38,520
Speaker 1: we finish up now? It's lovely to be part of

2947
02:56:38,600 --> 02:56:40,360
Speaker 1: the program, and thank you so much for helping me

2948
02:56:40,440 --> 02:56:46,400
Speaker 1: once again, Thank you very much. Hey, we'll be back

2949
02:56:46,480 --> 02:56:49,640
Speaker 1: Monday with more episodes every week from now until the

2950
02:56:49,680 --> 02:56:52,200
Speaker 1: heat death of the Universe. It could happen Here is

2951
02:56:52,200 --> 02:56:54,920
Speaker 1: a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from

2952
02:56:54,959 --> 02:56:57,600
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot

2953
02:56:57,640 --> 02:56:59,720
Speaker 1: com or check us out on the I Heart Radio app,

2954
02:56:59,720 --> 02:57:02,920
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can

2955
02:57:02,959 --> 02:57:05,640
Speaker 1: find sources for It could happen here, Updated monthly at

2956
02:57:05,680 --> 02:57:08,879
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.