WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 94 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:06.400 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:09.440 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:13.280 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:15.800 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:17.720 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:19.520 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:21.239 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:22.759 Hi, this is Mia. 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:26.720 So before we get to today's episode, last Friday, the 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:29.240 rank and file of the Burgerville Workers Union, which is 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:32.560 the country's first successful fast food union, went on strike 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:35.960 against a campaign of disciplinings and firings of primarily trans 0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:39.520 and POC workers by the bosses who are once again 0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:43.120 trying to crush the union. The strike has worked so far, 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:45.640 but they need support from the community to help pay 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:49.360 workers and help these people feed their families so they 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:52.280 can continue fighting the bosses, capitalism and building democracy in 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:56.320 the workplace. You can go to Bitley's Slash Burger Defense 0:00:56.360 --> 0:00:58.400 to do it. To their funds, we will have linked 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:02.000 to that description. And yeah, thank you all so much, 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:03.160 and now onto the. 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:11.279 Show, Ba and welcome to it. Could happen. 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:15.360 Sheer part of wool Zone Media. I am one of 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:17.680 your hosts, DJ Daniel, and I am joined by three 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:19.880 wonderful people, one of which is actually going to lead 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:22.039 us to the problem. I didn't press record on my 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:32.040 own device that I cannot believe that everybody to press record? 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:34.160 Should we all make a fine No? 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:35.759 No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:37.920 it's gonna I'm so fucking stupid. 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:42.000 Second, we're gonna do it again if this is good. 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:44.360 But you know what, I'm keeping all of this. 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:46.280 Anyway. 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:50.080 Yes, I am bah. 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:50.760 And welcome to it could happen. 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:54.280 Sheer, part of the wool Zone Media network. I am 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:56.120 one of your hosts, DJ Daniel, but really I'm just 0:01:56.120 --> 0:01:59.280 gonna be listening as someone else walks us through. I 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:01.640 am joined by three wonderful co hosts, and I'm going 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:03.800 to let them introduce themselves. How about we start with 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:06.040 the person leading this conversation, James, How you doing? 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:07.960 I'm wonderful, Dinna, I'm very excited. 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:08.639 And who are we? 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:10.799 Joined by Cherene? Do you want to say hi? 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:15.800 Do I want to say hi? This is what I 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:19.799 sound like today? Everybody, I apologize they're not part of 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:22.880 the plan, but hopefully this is a fun episode to 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:24.880 listen to me sound like this. This is Charene. Yeah, 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:25.320 I'm here. 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:28.880 Charen is doing her plague cosplay right now, and we 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:30.880 are joined by one other wonderful person. 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:32.480 Would you like to introduce yourself? 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:32.880 Hi? 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:37.760 Ged Mia and Mia also here Yay knows nothing about sheep. 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:38.400 Very excited. 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:41.440 I'm very excited, even though I sound like this, I 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:44.360 need to be here because I learned so much about 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:46.440 chickens last time. Now it's shape. 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:48.720 Yeah, so proud that you fought through to pain. 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:51.440 By the way, ba, sheer and wool is the full 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:53.440 extent of my sheep knowledge. So you know we got 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:54.640 it all out of the way right there. 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:57.280 Great, all right, But anyway, let's get going because I've 0:02:57.280 --> 0:02:58.639 got four pages of bullet points. 0:02:59.400 --> 0:02:59.920 Oh god, it. 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:03.359 Could be a week of sheep content. 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:04.480 Wonderful. 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:08.120 All right, Yeah, so talking about sheep. The reason we're 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:11.200 talking about sheep is A because it's it's passionate mine 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:16.000 and b because someone on the subreddit who's I'm just 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:18.440 going to get their username quickly. I can't say the 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:25.360 catiff cassif we had one of those, they posted sheep 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:28.480 every day until until they guessed the breed of sheep 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:31.160 that I had in my mind. And when they guessed 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:33.079 that the sheep, I said I would do a sheep episode. 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:35.400 That was two months ago. I think they did it 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:37.680 while I was away in the. 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:41.440 Desert before they got it. They got it quick too. 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:44.360 They got to like, day, I just searched sheep on 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:47.600 the subreddit. One of my friends, Like they were like, oh, 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:49.240 I look at the subreddit for your work stuff the 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:50.720 other day and it's just a lot of sheep. Man, 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:56.920 what do you do? Yeah, but yeah, they did very well. 0:03:56.920 --> 0:03:58.720 They eventually picked the sheep, which was a Scotch black 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:03.160 face famous for being just In Trudeau's favorite sheep. And 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:09.960 I got to get a man, why you can strike 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:15.440 a Canadian? I think it's impossible to say that on 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:20.440 a podcast and not not try, I think. But yeah, hopefully, 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:23.800 hopefully we've sailed through that one. So when are we 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:26.159 talking about sheep? Right When you're thinking of getting sheep, 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:28.120 the first thing I think you have to ask yourself 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:31.239 is why. And that is a good question because obviously 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:33.839 they're a lot of work, and they are like born 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:39.840 ready to die, and every point in the sheep owning 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:45.359 process you are. You can't say that we are all 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:49.480 born ready to die. We're just here temporarily postponing. 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:52.360 The because they're covered in war and we die. 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:58.839 The war smart incredible. 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:02.080 I'm many air horns and bombs right there. 0:05:02.200 --> 0:05:03.800 Yeah. I was going to say, Dan, if you could 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:06.920 give yourself like a big old symbol, but that would 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:11.400 be great. Okay. So yeah, So when you're looking at sheep, right, 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:15.120 it's a lot of work. But they're also very lovely. 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:17.359 I enjoy sheep a lot. They can be very friendly. 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:21.640 They're a nice animal. They're not like cattle. Sheep seem 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:24.960 more personable to me. And you know, they're soft, which 0:05:25.000 --> 0:05:28.040 is nice. So when you think about getting sheep, you 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:30.479 got to think, do I want these sheep for meat? 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:34.440 Do I want these sheep for wool? Or do I 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:37.200 want these sheep for milk? Those are the three main reasons. 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:41.120 They are also a thing called park sheep. When we're 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:43.720 talking about parks here, we're not talking about like that 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:46.400 they live in central Park. We're talking about like the 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:49.200 it's a big field in front of a rich person's house. 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:53.720 I think this is probably a specifically British thing, and people, Yeah, 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:55.400 people are looking at me, like it's a British thing. 0:05:57.440 --> 0:06:01.640 So big stately homes for rich people in rural England 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:03.200 will have a big field in front. At the home, 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:05.480 it's a long driveway on it. That driveway is generally 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:09.440 planted with big trees leading up to the house and 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:14.960 it's like you've watched down to TV. Yeah, so if 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:19.039 you can, yes, a country of state exactly. So like 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:23.320 in that country estate my dad, by both my parents 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:25.039 and agriculture and my dad works. Someone had a large 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:29.479 country estate one point in my childhood. They would have 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:32.640 sheep in that park. But like those she aren't really 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:34.880 there to like make money, they're there to look fancy. 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:39.040 So that's where you get some really crazy sheep. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:41.840 parksp Yeah. If you if you want to go and 0:06:41.880 --> 0:06:44.200 have a look up Jacob's Jacob sheep, there's some there's 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:46.280 some audience participation. So if you guys get opened up 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:48.880 a tab and google a Jacob sheep. 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:53.720 Classic like old Jacob je. 0:06:54.080 --> 0:07:00.920 Whoa, yeah, oh god. It's it's called a polyserate sheep 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:02.800 because it has multiple horns. I don't know the ones 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:06.200 you're seeing have four horns, but that's a classic Jacob sheep. 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:11.720 And they're piebald, right, multiple colors, and that's I didn't. 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:13.240 Know horns can look like that. 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:15.040 On a sp Oh yeah, there are quite a few 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:18.880 poly serrot sheet Hebridean sheep sometimes Navajo Tura sheep if 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:21.800 you're in the United States, so like that too. So yeah, 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:23.440 that's an option for sheep, you. 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:25.240 Know, just to paint a picture for anybody who's not 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:26.680 also actively googling this right now. 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:28.720 So you're driving in your car going for a stock 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:30.800 dog and you can't can't google something. 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:33.640 This is honestly, this is the sheep image that I 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:36.160 think was thought of when people think of like a 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:40.400 devil sheep or like these have sheep like two long 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:42.400 horns out the top and horns out the sides. I 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:44.360 may just be playing a lot of Diablo for right now, 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:47.160 but I immediately was like, ah, demon sheep. 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:51.440 If you check out Hebridean sheep, they look like in 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:55.560 like a very death metal sheep. There there, they're all black. 0:07:55.960 --> 0:07:59.200 Hebridean hebrid h E b R I D E A 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:03.560 N sheep yep. Whoa oh yeah, same thing, yeah. 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:11.640 Real baha met looking sheet. Yeah oh yeah. And at 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:14.040 the same time, yeah, that's what you want to strive 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:16.080 for in life. That's what I go for every time 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:18.920 I get dressed in the morning too. Yeah, yeah, good. 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:22.880 So you're looking at three different types of sheep, right, 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:25.320 basically your meat breeds, so they're going to grow quickly. 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:27.760 They're going to be bigger, which is going to be 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:29.640 something you have to take in consideration when you're handling 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.240 the sheep, right, and they're going to have more lambs. 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:35.240 You got your wool breeds, so they might be a 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:37.960 smaller They may need shearing twice a year though, so 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:39.800 that's something you're either going to have to do or 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:43.640 find someone to do, and they'll give a more desirable wool, right. 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:45.360 And there are different types of wolf for different things, 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:46.719 so that's something you might look into it. Like, g 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:49.400 if you're considering spinning or you know you're getting these 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:53.520 sheet primarily so you can go from like farm to jumper, 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:59.400 then you need to look into that. And I don't 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:01.440 actually know how you sell wool in the US and 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:04.520 the UK. It was kind of a centralized sale. It's 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:07.160 not it's not worth all for the most part, at 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:10.240 least unless you've got something like the Reno sheep. So like, 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:12.640 don't be getting wools sheep and thinking like, oh, hell yeah, 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:14.880 I'm going to make my fortune in the wall market 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:21.160 that ship. That ship has sailed centuries ago. So kind 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:25.040 of the classic sheep you're looking at for Like, a 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:26.680 lot of the sheep that you're going to see, at 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:29.440 least in the UK are very often mules. So that's 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:31.880 a cross breed of sheep. It's a blue face or 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:34.920 border lester ram over a hill breed. You So hill 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:38.360 breed sheeps are sheep? Are there more hardy? 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:38.600 Right? 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:42.760 They're the ones that live out on the Yorkshire Dales 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:44.720 or up in the Lake district. Right when you see 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:47.199 sheep up there, there's going to be hill breed sheep. 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:49.600 One of the advantages of hill breeds is they can 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:52.360 often be hefted. Are we familiar with hefting? 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:53.960 No? 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:54.880 Never, Okay. 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:56.880 Hefting is when a sheep knows where it's home is, 0:09:56.920 --> 0:09:58.920 so it doesn't have to necessarily be fenced in. It 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:05.600 will come back there. So yeah, yeah, it's but it's 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:07.640 so it's a animal that lives out on the hills, 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:09.200 but it knows where to come back to. It's not 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:11.040 just going to be like sort of go mincing off 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:14.040 to try and explore somewhere new, like it will come back. 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:16.560 That is not a characteristic of all breeds of sheep. 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:21.199 Like you will talk about fencing, definitely, most sheep need 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:23.120 to be fenced in or they will just get out. 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:28.160 Some of them are very acrobatic. But yeah, these guys, 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:30.080 they can be hefted hill breeds, some hill bredes can 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:32.840 be hefted so well. That means it's passed down the 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:36.000 maternal line. So you're going to have to to retain 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:39.000 that maternal line. Right, So as you're breeding your sheep, 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:41.800 going to have to keep the U to the you lamb, 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:43.360 and you're going to have to keep that line because 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:47.480 they will teach their lamps to where to come back to. Basically, right, 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:50.560 ask a really dumb question, please, sar. 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:53.120 I recognize it's dumb and I can google it later, 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:55.760 but I need to know. Okay, I don't as someone 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:58.360 that doesn't eat a lot of meat. Okay, do we 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:03.679 only eat lamb? Does anyone eat sheep meat? Sheep meat? 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:04.880 Yeah, that's called mushian. 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:07.520 I've never thought of it much. I have heard of 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:09.080 mutton so much sheep. 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:10.800 Yeah, have you heard that from Have you heard the 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:15.560 phrase mutton dressed as lamb. No, no, I think it's right. 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:18.079 That was like a British one. 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:20.680 Yeah, it's definitely probably British, right. I think it's rather sexist. 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:23.240 Is used in a condescending way for people who you 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:26.120 think are dressing too young for their age. I guess 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:28.599 so you might be familiar with that. I thought it 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:30.160 might be a good but no, I thought I had 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:32.720 a way to explain to you. But no, mutton, Yeah, 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:34.959 mutton is the oldest sheep. So there are some breeds 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:38.280 that you get for mutton. It's not very popular, like 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:41.480 like Americans don't eat as much lamb as British people do. 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:44.000 And I think New Zealanders eat a lot of it too, 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:47.320 but it's not as common here. So it's relatively common 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:49.160 in the UK. Like if you went to Azoopermarket, you'll 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:51.560 see it mutton not so much you have to cook 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:55.560 it for longer in search, yes they do. 0:11:55.720 --> 0:11:55.920 Yeah. 0:11:56.000 --> 0:12:01.199 Yeah, eat a lot of sheep too, interesting. 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:04.880 Yeah yeah, yeah, there are lots of It's it's a 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:06.720 very hardy like you can have sheep and a lot 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:09.559 of places where you can't have cattle. They're much tougher 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:12.600 animals like and they don't need as much grazing, right, 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:15.240 It's just not as much biomass on a sheep. So 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:17.679 like that's why when you go to hillier parts of 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:20.439 the UK, you're going to see sheep and not cattle 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:23.760 because that's the place where sheep can live. They don't 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:27.480 need is quality of grazing for the most part. So 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:31.480 let me go through a few breeds of sheep and 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:33.400 I'm going to go for what to look for when 0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:37.200 you're buying a sheep, right, So just just some breeds 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:39.520 that I've sort of gone off the top of my 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:44.000 head here texels, and you guys can look these up 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:45.520 as we go. I think that will add add to 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:49.199 the entertainment factor for the listeners at home. So texels, 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:52.880 they are big units and not as big some of 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:54.480 the other such we're going to talk about. They're thick 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:59.040 that they're mostly like a meat sheep lean meat. Yeah, ugly, 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:03.000 they're kind of wide face and kind of the big 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:04.640 dominating eyebrows. 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:07.040 They kind of look like someone. 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:09.080 Stuck stuck like a sheep pat on a dog. 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:13.520 Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, they're actually nice sheet They're not 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:17.160 like we had textles growing up. There is mostly a 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:20.079 meat sheep with a bit of wool. Your next one 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:23.400 might be a border leicester, sometimes called a blue leicester. 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:26.400 They're very recognizable that like the blue speckling on their 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:29.640 face and then a big Roman nose I suppose like 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:30.480 a domed nose. 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:31.880 They got a big, big round one. 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:35.560 Yeah, a big, big snoot on them. So that's a 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:39.320 very recognizable sheep. They again like a meat and wool 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:43.199 sheet with slightly probably more desirable wool than texels. They're 0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:45.400 also very good mother, so that's something you're looking at 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:48.600 with sheep. Rais is it going to raise it's young? 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:51.160 Is it going to stick around? Look after a boarder lester? 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:52.640 It's good for that, which is why they use in 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:54.560 those mules that I spoke about. It's one of the 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:57.520 reasons that you cross breathed them with a hill sheep 0:13:57.559 --> 0:14:00.439 to make them more hearty. Right, And this one is 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:06.360 a clean l l e y n because you probably 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:08.960 would have got that spelling organically. That that's a Welsh 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:13.840 word and I'm probably mispronouncing it, but it's that's a 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:16.240 it's a meat sheep. It's it's also got desirable. Well, 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:19.120 it's also a good mother. They are big, They're like 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:24.880 they're big units. My mom had those. And so when 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:26.040 one of the things you're going to have to do 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:27.320 when you have your sheep is you're going to have 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:30.960 to clip their little feet. Other words, they grow too long, 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:33.360 just like just like you have to clip your own fingernails, right, 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:37.160 otherwise you need to do that. So and there's a 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:39.680 way to do it by sort of grabbing the front 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:41.560 leg and sort of dropping your knee a little bit. 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:43.480 Like you're you're not just superlexing the sheep. 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:47.880 It's a light sup lex. 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:50.320 When you originally talking about hafting, I assumed it was 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:52.880 something to do with picking the sheep up for some reason. 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:58.000 The newer term is r kao ing your sheep. Okay, yeah, 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:01.120 So this lean sheep looks like like to me, to me, 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:04.120 the lean sheet, is it lean clean? 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:05.560 Clean? 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:09.720 Mm hmmm yeah, that double L sounding. Well, she's it 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:10.400 comes at you hard. 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:14.200 It's interesting clean. Well, either way, this sheep to me 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:17.800 looks like standard sheep. You're like run of the mill sheep. 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:19.960 When I google sheep, this is what I think of. 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:22.200 Yeah, that's what once I was sending you some pictures 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:25.720 of yesterday. Sometimes I'll send pictures of sheep to the 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:28.600 to the group chat just for the increase in the 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:30.160 general's well being. 0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:33.000 That's the only time I like the group chat. 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:41.040 I'm kidding, it's true. Keep it up for you, just 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:44.000 just for using I will keep keeping sheep content coming. 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:46.680 You got the Jacob sheep, we'll be spoken about, right, 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:48.360 So that's more of a park sheep. 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:50.920 It's a rare breed. 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:53.360 So if you're interested in like a rare breed, it's 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:54.600 a good thing to do, right. If you're just a 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:56.320 person who's like, yeah, it'd be cool to have some sheep, 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:58.400 I have some pasture. Maybe you want them on a 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:00.560 horse field, because horses will mess up the grass on 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:04.680 their own. Horses will will shift in an area and 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:07.120 that will kind of sour the grass, and horses will 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:11.480 then not eat that grass. Horses are not really you know, 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:19.640 great ship where they eat. On the other hand, yeah, 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:22.280 the horse knows, the sheep doesn't. So sometimes you have 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:26.080 a few sheep with horses. They can be companions as well. 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:28.000 They can be nice companions. 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:28.440 You know. 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:30.680 That's where the phrase get you know, the phrase gets 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:34.320 your goat. Something gets your goat. Oh yeah, yeah, that's 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:36.160 where it comes from. Keeping a goat with a horse 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:37.000 to keep it company. 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:39.920 Nice is a sheep of goat. 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:48.040 No different, different animals similar similar. I'm sure there's some 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:50.120 kind of genus species thing. I don't understand. 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:55.000 There maybe a different species somewhere. Yeah, they're they're Yeah, 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:59.200 they're not a million miles apart. So you've got doorpers 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:01.520 I think that's a cross between of a Dorset and 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:05.119 a Persian. They're they're raised for mutton, so that's if 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:07.520 you're looking for your mutton seeing that's where that's where 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:10.160 you get that. They have multiple lambs a year, so 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:12.639 some of these sheep will have can land more than 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:15.680 once a year. Herdwick is a good hill breed. They're 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:18.399 a very hearty. A lot of those up around my 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:22.200 dad where my dad lives. Like I said, there are 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:23.480 some rare breeds. 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:27.320 Which if you're interested in like having rare breed sheep 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:30.600 just to preserve like a type of sheep, because obviously, 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:34.920 like the more heritage breeds are not as commercially viable, 0:17:35.040 --> 0:17:38.560 so sometimes they get lost, right because they don't give 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:41.040 you a better same return on investment. So if you're 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:42.639 interested in having sheep just because it's cool and it 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:45.560 looks funky, the rare breed survival trust is a place 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:48.199 to like, look, I used to enjoy going there as 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:52.000 a kid and seeing different sheep and learning about But. 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:53.679 That's not a good reason to get a sheep. 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:57.000 But if you decide you want to have sheep anyway, right, 0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:01.160 let's say you're like, I don't know when a casts dispersion. 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:04.359 So it's going to say a horsey person, a person 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:08.960 who owns horses, you know, like if that is your thing, 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:12.000 and you yeah, a horse person, yeah, like a centaur 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:16.439 if you're a centauri. Yeah, if you are half horse, 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:20.399 then you know you want to you want to have 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:24.480 sheep maybe to check to improve your pasture or to 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:27.240 not let the horses syr up or the grass. Then 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:27.639 why not? 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:27.959 Right? 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:31.200 Like why not? Because like if you get a if 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:32.919 you get a meat sheep, it's gonna be bigger, it's 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:36.160 gonna be more work. If you get a very sheet 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:37.720 that a lot of wool, you're gonna have to share 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:39.360 that a lot. So maybe you just want a sheep 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:43.520 that can kind of cruise and be by yourself, then 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:48.200 you know why not? Yeah, So we're going to talk 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:50.840 very leafily about what to do when you buy a sheep, 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:53.240 and then we're going to pivot to some other things 0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:56.560 that you can buy which are not as rewarding as sheep. Yeah, 0:18:56.600 --> 0:18:58.480 which is which is? That's an ad break that will 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:01.359 do after that downal thanks understood. 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:03.760 I miss I missed that part. Afterwards I was like, wait, no, James, 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:07.119 don't move on quite yet. I understand now, very well. 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:11.359 Done, thank you, Daniel. So when you're buying sheep, I 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:13.760 think probably what you want to do is buy some 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:15.840 yews that have already been bred, or a couple of 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:19.520 yews with twins that they're a flock animal, right like sheep. 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:21.840 They don't want to be on their own, So you 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:23.840 don't just go and buy like one sheep and be like, yeah, 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:26.120 I've got a sheep. Now that's not very nice. That's 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:30.760 not that they'll be insecure and anxious, so they like 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:34.600 to be with other sheep. So I think the way 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:36.000 we used to do it when I was a kid 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:40.119 was to get orphan lambs and so like that the 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:44.960 mother either rejects the lamb or she dies giving birth 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:50.400 right well, which can happen. And we used to them 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:54.280 bottle feed those lambs and like you know, when they're 0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:56.240 very little, if you go out on the hill, do 0:19:56.280 --> 0:20:01.520 people have Argus in America. Sorry, you're looking at no, okay, 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:04.960 Like it's a type of oven that like it's always on, 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:09.920 it's a range cooker. Oh no, people, people, Okay, yeah, 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:12.560 I can remember, like where I don't know. 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:16.760 What sheep are. If you want me to know whatever 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:17.800 the fuck you're talking about. 0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:20.920 You know, it's good. It's so much learning. It's it's 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:23.960 type of oven that like it's in old houses and 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:26.680 also rich people's houses. Now it's become like a training thing. 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:30.040 But like way back in the day, I remember like 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:32.560 putting lambs in the bottom oven, which is like warm, 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:35.640 but like not cooking warm, just like like warm warm 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:38.320 when they were very little and they need to warm up. 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:42.640 So with often lambs, right, you're going to bottle feed them. 0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:45.040 You're going to do the stuff that their mother does 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:47.919 for them. So that's a lot of work, but you know, 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:50.160 it's a way to get going. But they are more 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:52.480 fragile when they're young. So what it was suggest is 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:55.959 buying a couple of yews that have been bred and 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:59.919 then you just want to either like if you go 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:02.720 locally to somewhere, then you'll you'll know this is a 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:04.720 type of sheep that can survive and the type of 0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:06.960 pasture that's near you. This is the type of sheep 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:09.040 that can survive in the climate that you have with 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:11.960 the food sort of available where you are, So that's 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:13.560 probably a good thing. And then you just want to 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:15.720 check that the sheep has some weight on it, right, 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:17.720 and you want to check its teeth of course, like 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:20.440 any livestock, you want to be checking the teeth when 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:23.840 you're buying them. And then a thing I've run into. 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:26.240 What do you sorry, what are you looking for on 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:26.919 the teeth. 0:21:27.080 --> 0:21:29.920 If they're all fucked up like that sheep is not healthy, right, 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:34.359 like receding gums or like kind of if it's much older, 0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:36.640 that's you can tell. You can normally age an animal 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:38.320 by looking at its teeth, right, like if you find 0:21:38.400 --> 0:21:42.800 a if you find the remains of an animal, to 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:45.240 one way to see the aig of it. So yeah, 0:21:45.440 --> 0:21:47.600 you go to the auction, right, and you don't want 0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:50.600 to check the vaccine status as well. I've only really 0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:53.560 come across this in the United States recently. Some people 0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:56.960 will rage posting on the place I go to to 0:21:56.960 --> 0:22:00.480 buy chickens because it didn't want to buy vaccinated pickens, 0:22:00.920 --> 0:22:06.320 which is just h Yeah, because Bill Gates wants to 0:22:06.359 --> 0:22:08.520 know what your chicken is thinking, right, which is why 0:22:08.560 --> 0:22:13.720 he micro chips. Yeah, absolute pricks. Yeah, if you don't 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:15.359 want to buy back. So I don't know if you're 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:17.200 listening to the show that this is not a concern 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:19.200 of ours. I don't think, but yeah, check the vaccine 0:22:19.200 --> 0:22:21.639 statu is just in case you got some who are 0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:23.360 trying to sell you some sheep which are more likely 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:28.840 to get sick. So yeah, would would if you I 0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:30.760 can't come up with and I don't know if you 0:22:30.800 --> 0:22:32.520 want to buy something that's no use to you and 0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:37.679 won't give you joy instead of sheep. Here are some adverts. Okay, 0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:40.520 so we're back and we're still talking about sheep, probably 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:43.280 will be for quite some times from page one. So 0:22:44.160 --> 0:22:47.840 sheep are actually they're quite clever. Sheep can recognize human faces. 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:51.440 They'll know who you are. I've definitely definitely known that, 0:22:52.080 --> 0:22:54.080 Like especially the sheep that we bottle fed from when 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:56.119 they were babies, right, they definitely knew who we were 0:22:57.080 --> 0:22:59.920 and they could be very friendly. Yeah, it's nice, it's no. 0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:01.159 It will come up to you and they'll sort of 0:23:01.240 --> 0:23:04.919 nuzzle you and you can rub them. Our sheep were polled. 0:23:05.000 --> 0:23:07.000 That's another thing to think about when you're getting a sheep. Right, 0:23:07.000 --> 0:23:11.440 a pole sheep, it doesn't have horns where it's some 0:23:11.480 --> 0:23:15.280 people have horns. Some people have more horns. So yeah, 0:23:15.280 --> 0:23:17.080 they can recognize your faces. They can learn names, so 0:23:17.200 --> 0:23:20.080 they have a name. They can learn their name. They 0:23:20.080 --> 0:23:22.879 also like knows it they're sheep, so like, I know, 0:23:22.960 --> 0:23:24.639 my mum would just go out and go look sheep 0:23:24.720 --> 0:23:28.960 and then she'd feed them and they'd come. So you're thinking, 0:23:30.720 --> 0:23:33.560 you know, they've got a positive reinforcement mechanism. You can 0:23:33.640 --> 0:23:36.480 train sheep to go on a lead. So another reason 0:23:36.600 --> 0:23:38.520 you might want to get sheep is you're getting into 0:23:38.600 --> 0:23:41.680 into showing. Right, a nice thing to do if you 0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:44.439 you know a strange like me. I suppose it's go 0:23:44.520 --> 0:23:46.480 to like an agricultural show and look at different types 0:23:46.480 --> 0:23:49.800 of sheep. I like to do that. They can be 0:23:49.840 --> 0:23:52.119 really expensive now because it's also the County Fair and 0:23:52.160 --> 0:23:54.320 so like people are going in to eat like deep 0:23:54.320 --> 0:23:58.360 fried stuff, which doesn't interest me as much. But if 0:23:58.400 --> 0:24:00.520 you want to go and see it, yeah, yeah, we 0:24:00.520 --> 0:24:02.560 could go together down I'll get. 0:24:01.560 --> 0:24:05.639 A super sailor at the end, be like, how is 0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:06.040 your day? 0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:11.679 You won't be saddled with regret if you look at 0:24:11.680 --> 0:24:17.600 sheep and indigestion. So yeah, consider yeah, but it's nice 0:24:17.640 --> 0:24:19.200 to go right, see see the breeds that are popular 0:24:19.200 --> 0:24:20.879 in your area, see different types of sheep and what 0:24:20.920 --> 0:24:23.600 people will do. At least I've never been to it, 0:24:24.320 --> 0:24:26.639 like an actual sort of showing sheep. I'll just go 0:24:26.680 --> 0:24:28.880 to the to the San Diego County Fair and look 0:24:29.080 --> 0:24:30.760 at the animals. But I've not been to a show 0:24:30.760 --> 0:24:32.520 where you walk around with them in the US. But 0:24:33.080 --> 0:24:34.240 I used to do that when I was a kid. 0:24:34.240 --> 0:24:36.600 I think of, you know, go to the village show 0:24:36.640 --> 0:24:38.800 or whatever and take the sheep and walk it around 0:24:39.200 --> 0:24:41.280 and then they'll judge your sheep right if it's up 0:24:41.320 --> 0:24:44.000 to the breed standards or what have you. So yeah, 0:24:44.040 --> 0:24:45.760 they can go on a lead they like more of 0:24:45.800 --> 0:24:49.120 like a halter look around the nose, so not not 0:24:49.160 --> 0:24:52.359 like a collar. So that's the thing that you can 0:24:52.400 --> 0:24:53.919 do that's that interest you. If you want to get 0:24:53.920 --> 0:24:55.520 into sheep showing. If that's the case, you're going to 0:24:55.560 --> 0:24:58.320 want to get like a pedigree sheep right and really 0:24:58.320 --> 0:25:00.480 get it to it. You're going to drop some money. 0:25:00.520 --> 0:25:05.639 It's not really like I was never a very serious 0:25:05.680 --> 0:25:07.320 sheep show, to be clear, It's just a thing for 0:25:07.359 --> 0:25:09.240 your child to do when you go up in a 0:25:09.320 --> 0:25:13.040 rural area. They like I said, they like to be 0:25:13.080 --> 0:25:15.480 together in groups. They're pretty docile. Like sheep an't going 0:25:15.520 --> 0:25:19.520 to fight you. It's definitely, definitely like when I was 0:25:19.520 --> 0:25:21.360 at University of stuff, friends would come home and they'd 0:25:21.359 --> 0:25:23.119 be very scared of the sheep. There's no reason to 0:25:23.240 --> 0:25:26.440 be scared of sheep. I don't think I've ever heard 0:25:26.440 --> 0:25:31.440 of anyone being hurt by a sheep. Yeah, I mean what, 0:25:31.480 --> 0:25:33.400 they're going to come at you a bit. Sometimes they're 0:25:33.400 --> 0:25:38.320 angry or whatever, but like it's a sheep, Like it's fine, 0:25:38.200 --> 0:25:41.000 you know, like I would back you serene if it 0:25:41.040 --> 0:25:46.040 came to it. Yeah, Like yes, And their horns are 0:25:46.080 --> 0:25:49.879 mostly like not pointed towards you. I have been gored 0:25:50.040 --> 0:25:55.159 by a bolt right, like I've experienced like livestock related injury. 0:25:55.880 --> 0:25:57.640 Sheep is definitely on the list of animals I'm pretty 0:25:57.640 --> 0:25:58.240 sure I could take. 0:25:59.359 --> 0:26:00.840 Yeah, sure, this. 0:26:00.960 --> 0:26:03.840 Next fact is fascinating to me. Can we get to 0:26:03.880 --> 0:26:04.439 this fact? 0:26:04.880 --> 0:26:05.080 Yeah? 0:26:05.160 --> 0:26:08.880 Sure, So definitely if you're thinking breeding getting rams, about 0:26:09.119 --> 0:26:11.840 like eight percent are going to be gay It's just 0:26:11.880 --> 0:26:17.920 a thing that's going to happen, right, getty sheep sheep? Yeah, yeah, 0:26:17.960 --> 0:26:19.480 you wait till we get to the next do one. 0:26:19.480 --> 0:26:20.920 Beres just a thing, right, You're going to get a 0:26:20.960 --> 0:26:24.040 sheep that's gay. It's it's a natural part of the 0:26:24.119 --> 0:26:26.840 diversity of any species. Kind of definitely know people who 0:26:26.880 --> 0:26:29.080 just spent a lot of money on pedigree rams and 0:26:29.080 --> 0:26:32.479 they've turned out to be gay. It's what it is, right, Like, 0:26:32.720 --> 0:26:35.639 I love that gets me about this weird, stupid American. 0:26:36.320 --> 0:26:38.359 It's not just an American thing, but it's like, oh, 0:26:38.400 --> 0:26:40.680 it's not natural whatever. Like I know, anyone who's worked 0:26:40.680 --> 0:26:44.720 with livestock in their life, well for a number of 0:26:44.760 --> 0:26:46.640 years will tell you that they've come across a gay 0:26:47.040 --> 0:26:50.640 sheep or cow or what have you. Some you're also 0:26:50.720 --> 0:26:55.160 going to get. Sometimes some sheep are called free Martins. 0:26:55.640 --> 0:26:58.800 It's a trans mask sheep for the most part. It 0:26:58.840 --> 0:27:03.639 actually has some biological diferences. So like, yeah, what it 0:27:03.680 --> 0:27:06.800 is is is a female that's been accompanied so like 0:27:06.800 --> 0:27:11.520 they're twins or triplets or quads sometimes that has been 0:27:11.560 --> 0:27:16.000 accompanied by male featurists in utero, so they behave in 0:27:16.040 --> 0:27:20.880 a masculine way and they might lack functioning ovaries. Yeah, 0:27:20.880 --> 0:27:22.240 you're going to get those two right there, So they're 0:27:22.240 --> 0:27:23.760 going to be a bit more agro like a ram 0:27:23.760 --> 0:27:26.600 about you and stuff. But it's just to think is 0:27:26.640 --> 0:27:29.159 part of natural diversity in species. You're going to see it. 0:27:29.760 --> 0:27:32.480 You know, you might have a gay sheep. Lucky you, right, 0:27:33.560 --> 0:27:37.960 you know, cherish it, take it, you know, be nice 0:27:37.960 --> 0:27:41.240 to it. So white fleeces, right, generally we think of sheep, 0:27:41.280 --> 0:27:42.399 but Dana was saying, you have to think of a 0:27:42.440 --> 0:27:45.679 white fleece. That's that wild cheap are often brown, right, 0:27:45.680 --> 0:27:48.800 it's being white. It's not a great camouflage trait. So 0:27:48.840 --> 0:27:51.800 when we see a when we see a white sheep, 0:27:51.840 --> 0:27:53.360 that's because it's generally been selected. 0:27:53.440 --> 0:27:53.560 Right. 0:27:53.560 --> 0:27:56.320 So when you look at the Jacob sheep, they were bibaled, right, 0:27:56.359 --> 0:27:58.200 they had bits of brown on them on the white fleece. 0:27:58.760 --> 0:28:01.879 Being white have a pispid trait, so it's for very quickly. 0:28:03.160 --> 0:28:04.520 And then if you if you're looking at the wall 0:28:04.520 --> 0:28:06.280 of a sheet, you want to consider you want fine 0:28:06.320 --> 0:28:10.000 medium of course, wool, long wool sheep. Right, if you 0:28:10.000 --> 0:28:13.320 look up sheep with long walls. Some amazing reeds out there, 0:28:14.119 --> 0:28:16.760 those are mostly for breeding to get more desirable wall 0:28:16.840 --> 0:28:19.920 characteristics like long wool sheep. It's going to be quite 0:28:19.960 --> 0:28:22.240 hard to look after that sheep. Right stop, it's wall 0:28:22.240 --> 0:28:25.080 getting matt in stuff. So now we're going to get 0:28:25.080 --> 0:28:30.360 it to fencing. It's an important topic. So you want 0:28:30.359 --> 0:28:32.879 your fencing to be about chest high. Obviously, it depends 0:28:32.920 --> 0:28:34.760 on your height, like if you're a smaller person a 0:28:34.840 --> 0:28:38.160 bit higher or whatever. But like we were, generally use post 0:28:38.160 --> 0:28:40.920 and rail fencing. You don't see that as much in 0:28:41.160 --> 0:28:45.400 the US, but it names pretty self explanatory. Right, Bang 0:28:45.440 --> 0:28:47.240 in a post rail across the middle. Bang in a 0:28:47.280 --> 0:28:49.600 post rail across the middle. And then you're going to 0:28:49.880 --> 0:28:52.800 want some netting you don't have to use like with chickens, 0:28:52.840 --> 0:28:55.560 we talked about using construction netting right, like very thin 0:28:56.280 --> 0:28:59.120 wire just so like things like snakes and rats don't 0:28:59.120 --> 0:29:01.240 get in with cheap you need that. The you can 0:29:01.280 --> 0:29:04.920 go with a wider mesh four or five inches across 0:29:05.680 --> 0:29:07.600 and that's going to be cheaper for you as you're 0:29:07.600 --> 0:29:10.280 building the fence. You can also use electric fences and 0:29:10.320 --> 0:29:12.360 you can use those to rotate the pasture, which is 0:29:12.360 --> 0:29:14.280 a good idea. So the sheep kind of graze one area, 0:29:14.280 --> 0:29:16.880 then you move them across to another area. That area recovers. 0:29:17.400 --> 0:29:19.320 You move the sheep to the next area, they graze 0:29:19.320 --> 0:29:22.520 that area where the other areas recover. Okay, you learned 0:29:22.520 --> 0:29:24.960 about this in the school, surely, right, yeah. 0:29:24.720 --> 0:29:25.360 Yeah, surely. 0:29:25.640 --> 0:29:27.880 I'm curious. How does the electric fencing do that? Are 0:29:27.920 --> 0:29:29.960 you constantly moving it? And is that just like when 0:29:29.960 --> 0:29:31.680 the sheep touch it, they're like, oh, not that way 0:29:31.760 --> 0:29:33.040 and go back like. 0:29:35.120 --> 0:29:37.120 Oh okay, well they're not thick. They'll touch it once and 0:29:37.120 --> 0:29:40.360 then they won't go here maybe twice and oh yeah, no, precisely, 0:29:41.040 --> 0:29:43.000 but so how is it doing that? It's so that 0:29:43.000 --> 0:29:45.560 the electric fences are like plastic posts that you stick 0:29:45.560 --> 0:29:48.040 in the ground and then it has a metal spike 0:29:48.120 --> 0:29:50.600 on the end, and then it's got this it's about 0:29:50.600 --> 0:29:53.360 that wide, about inch wide. It's it's a ribbon with 0:29:53.440 --> 0:29:56.160 little metal pits in it, and you the post has 0:29:56.160 --> 0:29:57.960 a way of securing that ribbon to it so you 0:29:57.960 --> 0:29:59.360 can move that fencing around. 0:30:00.040 --> 0:30:00.600 Okay, cool. 0:30:00.640 --> 0:30:03.400 So so the reason I mean it being electrified is 0:30:03.480 --> 0:30:06.560 kind of like secondary. It's mostly that it's a movable 0:30:06.560 --> 0:30:09.680 fence post. That's why you yeah, crazing purposes. 0:30:09.320 --> 0:30:12.800 Yeah, it doesn't have the same the same structure as 0:30:12.840 --> 0:30:15.040 a normal fence, so it has gaps which a sheet 0:30:15.080 --> 0:30:17.400 probably could slip through if it was just whirre. Because 0:30:17.400 --> 0:30:19.280 it's electric, it's not going to try and nuzzle its 0:30:19.320 --> 0:30:21.800 way through because it's going to get shot. So if 0:30:21.840 --> 0:30:24.920 you're using electric fence, just like you know, the classic 0:30:24.920 --> 0:30:26.480 way to tell of it's on, right, it is you 0:30:26.520 --> 0:30:28.320 pick up a piece of grass and then you just 0:30:28.360 --> 0:30:32.200 touch the fence with the grass. Because the grass is 0:30:32.200 --> 0:30:34.000 a poor conductor, you're going to feel a little. 0:30:33.760 --> 0:30:36.160 Bit of a shock trolling right now. 0:30:36.080 --> 0:30:40.240 No real, that's what you do. Like, yeah, no, you 0:30:40.280 --> 0:30:42.400 touch it with a piece of grass, and that's gonna 0:30:42.640 --> 0:30:45.640 you're going to get like a slight like tingle, but 0:30:45.640 --> 0:30:48.360 you're not going to get a full whack. Growing up, 0:30:48.400 --> 0:30:50.160 the electric fences all over the place, right, I've run 0:30:50.160 --> 0:30:52.320 into them when I was a kid and taken a 0:30:52.360 --> 0:30:54.000 whack or like you know, the post have a big 0:30:54.000 --> 0:30:55.840 spike on the end, so that's very fun to throw 0:30:55.880 --> 0:31:03.120 at your friends, you know, lasting in But yeah, electric 0:31:03.120 --> 0:31:05.320 fancy gives handy. You just took it up to a 0:31:05.320 --> 0:31:09.440 car battery basically, so you like, yeah, no, it's a 0:31:09.480 --> 0:31:11.560 it's a good way to segment your field. You have 0:31:11.560 --> 0:31:13.960 one field, you know, if you're not rotating the sheep. 0:31:14.000 --> 0:31:16.200 Did you alreally not learn about field rotation? Sorry, I'm 0:31:16.240 --> 0:31:18.080 constantly amazed by the things that I did in school 0:31:18.080 --> 0:31:19.320 that Americans don't do, not at. 0:31:19.280 --> 0:31:24.400 All agriculture in any capacity. Yeah, there was no agriculture training. 0:31:24.640 --> 0:31:26.080 I mean at least way. 0:31:25.800 --> 0:31:28.160 Far I saw. It was unlike the tub of butter. 0:31:28.520 --> 0:31:32.240 Yeah, like that's literally what the think. 0:31:32.280 --> 0:31:34.040 I think I grew up closer than YouTube, which I 0:31:34.080 --> 0:31:35.640 had a corn fi in my backyard and they were Okay, 0:31:36.000 --> 0:31:38.480 we didn't have agricultural education yet like my school, but 0:31:38.560 --> 0:31:40.880 like there were schools so like I went to to 0:31:40.960 --> 0:31:44.600 do like play chess classic out I was, I was 0:31:44.640 --> 0:31:47.600 a nerd, but like there were lots of schools that 0:31:47.720 --> 0:31:50.320 like did stuff like that because they were like war 0:31:50.440 --> 0:31:53.840 Royal Ports of Illinois, So that is a thing here. 0:31:53.920 --> 0:31:57.320 I think it's just you didn't go up. 0:31:57.280 --> 0:31:59.680 In the agricultural. 0:31:59.400 --> 0:32:00.960 I think I learned it in the context of the 0:32:01.040 --> 0:32:03.640 enclosure of the commons in the fore field rotation and 0:32:03.680 --> 0:32:07.800 like using lagoons to fix nitrogen in the soil. Again 0:32:10.360 --> 0:32:16.520 blank hollige, Okay, okay, well, yeah, different strokes for different folks. 0:32:16.560 --> 0:32:19.600 You know me on Twitter dot com. If you learned 0:32:19.600 --> 0:32:21.200 about lagoomes in school. 0:32:22.320 --> 0:32:26.440 So too would have preferred to learn about that, just 0:32:26.440 --> 0:32:29.440 to be clear, like algebra two, forget it. 0:32:29.560 --> 0:32:33.160 I would much rather learn aboutlagoons. 0:32:32.240 --> 0:32:36.160 Whenever you use algebra, not don someone else is using it. 0:32:36.320 --> 0:32:38.960 But you know you, Yeah, think of what you could 0:32:38.960 --> 0:32:41.480 be doing with nitrogen right now, if you if you 0:32:41.480 --> 0:32:49.560 were growing some peas, what if incredible things? Yeah, So 0:32:50.120 --> 0:32:52.600 with your sheep, depending on the breed, you're going to 0:32:52.680 --> 0:32:55.440 need shelter, right, So that shelter could be something like 0:32:55.480 --> 0:32:59.400 a cops a little cops of trees. That's a small 0:32:59.560 --> 0:33:01.000 it's big, smaller than a wood. 0:33:01.960 --> 0:33:02.720 It is a copse. 0:33:03.360 --> 0:33:05.240 So you're going to need a decent amount of trees 0:33:05.240 --> 0:33:07.959 for shelter. Some will need more shelter than others, right, 0:33:08.000 --> 0:33:11.120 depending on how hardy they are. Some of them will 0:33:11.120 --> 0:33:15.240 want to lamb inside and some of them are able 0:33:15.240 --> 0:33:18.760 to lamb outside. That they all will need some shelter 0:33:18.880 --> 0:33:21.680 and foul weather. Right. You'll see that they're very good 0:33:21.720 --> 0:33:23.400 at like knowing where to shelter. But then you've got 0:33:23.400 --> 0:33:26.239 to you can't leave them, out, like when I'm in 0:33:26.400 --> 0:33:29.440 agricultural states in America where these giant prairies, you know 0:33:29.440 --> 0:33:31.360 that you don't have hedgerows in the same way that 0:33:31.640 --> 0:33:34.960 we did where I grew up. Then you if you 0:33:35.040 --> 0:33:36.520 are there and you're trying to have some sheep, you're 0:33:36.520 --> 0:33:38.240 going to need to build a little shelter for them. 0:33:39.960 --> 0:33:42.880 That's a question about the shelter. Yeah, yeah, it's. 0:33:42.600 --> 0:33:44.400 What's the shape of the shelter? Is it kind of 0:33:44.520 --> 0:33:47.240 like is it like a house? Is it more like barn. 0:33:47.120 --> 0:33:50.640 Like's depending on the breed. No, not like barn. You 0:33:50.680 --> 0:33:52.080 have a bard to bring them in. Like so we 0:33:52.160 --> 0:33:54.239 used to lamb inside, right, and then you just use 0:33:54.320 --> 0:33:56.880 palette to divide it up, and the palettes you put 0:33:56.920 --> 0:33:58.960 each of you in there with her lamb. 0:34:00.280 --> 0:34:03.920 And we'll get onto Thats are barnes jokers, not going 0:34:03.960 --> 0:34:04.360 to happen. 0:34:05.400 --> 0:34:10.160 Sorry, Daniel, I'll let you down again that it's not 0:34:10.200 --> 0:34:13.000 on you. But yeah, you'll see all kinds of things. 0:34:13.080 --> 0:34:16.680 You'll see thanks, you'll see it like people just put 0:34:16.719 --> 0:34:18.799 a little stone shelters. You know, if you have a 0:34:18.920 --> 0:34:22.439 if you have a prevailing wind that like rips through 0:34:22.520 --> 0:34:24.759 and it's cold wind, then you know you might want 0:34:24.760 --> 0:34:26.919 to build something just to shelter them from that prevailing wind. 0:34:26.920 --> 0:34:29.160 But they just you know, if it's like a big 0:34:29.280 --> 0:34:33.600 undifferentiated prairie. And especially lambs, right, they're more fragile. They're younger, 0:34:33.719 --> 0:34:35.920 and sometimes you'll see the lambs wearing the little coats 0:34:36.200 --> 0:34:40.279 and little little jackets that they can wear. Yeah, you 0:34:40.280 --> 0:34:45.440 can google that, just like google lamps, orange jacket. You 0:34:45.440 --> 0:34:48.719 can get these little little plastic jackets for them. But 0:34:49.080 --> 0:34:50.759 that you do, you do need to be cautious with 0:34:50.840 --> 0:34:53.160 lambs when they're young. Sometimes, like I said, you'll have 0:34:53.200 --> 0:34:58.239 the midside thing with sheep regarding feeding is that they 0:34:58.280 --> 0:35:00.759 are ruminants. Do we know what rumin animals are? 0:35:02.320 --> 0:35:02.360 No? 0:35:03.000 --> 0:35:06.040 Yes, massively failed by your education. 0:35:06.360 --> 0:35:07.160 And it's a. 0:35:09.080 --> 0:35:13.440 Ruminant. It chooses the cud. So when it eats the food, right, 0:35:13.480 --> 0:35:17.680 it goes to the roomen and then it holds the food. 0:35:17.719 --> 0:35:18.600 The food is regurgit. 0:35:20.600 --> 0:35:24.040 What are the cow It has like multiple stomachs yes, yeah, yeah, 0:35:25.560 --> 0:35:30.200 like the first stomach yeah, so the rooman's a big stomach, right, 0:35:30.239 --> 0:35:33.239 and it's in there that it's like a storage space really, 0:35:34.040 --> 0:35:36.000 So the food goes in their chills for a bit 0:35:36.040 --> 0:35:38.880 and then it's regurgitated, chewed back up and then re swallowed. 0:35:39.800 --> 0:35:43.359 And that is the cud that that process is called 0:35:43.480 --> 0:35:47.480 chewing the cud. Chewing the cud, that is the right. 0:35:47.560 --> 0:35:50.120 So is that entire process chewing the cud like it 0:35:50.200 --> 0:35:52.960 going into the ruminant and then being regurgitated, or is 0:35:53.000 --> 0:35:55.560 it strictly just the chewing that happened before they eat 0:35:55.560 --> 0:35:57.000 it again. 0:35:57.719 --> 0:36:00.000 It's a chewing that happens when they eat it again. Right, 0:36:00.120 --> 0:36:02.920 So like the first eating, it's just eating. The second 0:36:02.920 --> 0:36:05.520 eating she reads having a physical reaction. 0:36:08.120 --> 0:36:09.800 It is hardly. It's extremely harly. 0:36:10.360 --> 0:36:11.920 That's how they get the most out of like this 0:36:12.040 --> 0:36:17.200 relatively lean pasture. Right, it's a very clever adaption. Yeah, 0:36:17.239 --> 0:36:20.560 so yeah, that's how that's how sheep eat. So that 0:36:20.640 --> 0:36:23.919 means that they need to have access to pasture. They 0:36:24.320 --> 0:36:27.480 also need lots of water. So again, if you're in 0:36:27.480 --> 0:36:30.040 like a desert place, I should ask Navaho folks. I 0:36:30.080 --> 0:36:32.239 know Navaho folks, I should ask them how they do 0:36:32.320 --> 0:36:35.960 with their tury sheep because it's not a densely watered 0:36:36.000 --> 0:36:38.560 place there, but generally that they need access to water. 0:36:38.680 --> 0:36:41.080 I'm sure they have places where they have good access 0:36:41.120 --> 0:36:43.120 to water and then you, like I said, you do 0:36:43.200 --> 0:36:46.239 want to rotate them around. Right, You can feed them, 0:36:46.239 --> 0:36:49.200 you can supplement with like hay or halage or silage 0:36:49.239 --> 0:36:52.479 stuff like that, but you shouldn't really, like you can't 0:36:52.520 --> 0:36:55.160 keep your feet sheep in a place where there's no pasture. Really, 0:36:55.160 --> 0:36:56.640 you don't want to be feeding them allyet. They need 0:36:56.760 --> 0:36:59.600 varied pasture right with different things, you know, clovers and 0:37:00.440 --> 0:37:04.160 grasses and the stuff that's poisonous for them, so that 0:37:04.160 --> 0:37:06.239 there are different weeds sort of poisonous for them. You're 0:37:06.239 --> 0:37:08.560 just going to want to It depends where you live, right, 0:37:08.600 --> 0:37:10.360 you're listening to this in the UK. It's different to 0:37:10.400 --> 0:37:13.640 North America, probably different to South America. So you'll want 0:37:13.640 --> 0:37:15.319 to check that out again. When you're buying a sheep, 0:37:15.360 --> 0:37:17.080 you can ask these kind of questions and go ahead 0:37:17.120 --> 0:37:20.960 and pull those out so so you can you can 0:37:21.000 --> 0:37:23.719 feed them grain. But you really only want to do 0:37:23.760 --> 0:37:26.799 that sort of durin or just before lambing. It can 0:37:26.880 --> 0:37:29.640 lead to overfeeding. It's too rich for them, right, Like 0:37:30.080 --> 0:37:32.480 they're designed with this ruminant system to you know, have 0:37:32.560 --> 0:37:38.920 these green leafy things. People can use bagged feeds too. 0:37:40.040 --> 0:37:41.799 You know, again, you don't want to rely on those 0:37:41.800 --> 0:37:45.160 whole time. They're expensive. Don't use cow food like bagged 0:37:45.160 --> 0:37:48.040 cattle food. It's not going to work for sheep. And 0:37:48.080 --> 0:37:51.000 they need like a mineral lick too, So you're like, 0:37:51.040 --> 0:37:54.640 I'm sure you're all familiar with salt licks. Yeah, that's yeah, 0:37:54.680 --> 0:37:58.160 that's it's a similar thing, right, they'll just come up 0:37:58.200 --> 0:38:00.719 and lick that. They know when they need the salt 0:38:00.960 --> 0:38:03.719 or the minerals or do they just they know, so 0:38:03.760 --> 0:38:07.040 they'll just come come and look it. So you just 0:38:07.120 --> 0:38:10.399 put that out in the field. It's pretty chill, don't 0:38:10.440 --> 0:38:12.359 let So A big problem we had was like we 0:38:12.440 --> 0:38:14.319 had some sheep in the field next to our house, 0:38:14.360 --> 0:38:16.040 and they were our sheep, there was someone else's sheep, 0:38:16.080 --> 0:38:18.359 but like forever getting into the garden, mainly because I'm 0:38:18.440 --> 0:38:23.640 terrible at closing gates and doors, and so they would 0:38:23.640 --> 0:38:25.240 get into the garden. You do want to be careful. 0:38:25.280 --> 0:38:28.000 They will go ham like it is the time of 0:38:28.040 --> 0:38:29.719 their lives when they get in your garden, and they 0:38:29.719 --> 0:38:32.239 can eat all your plants. But you do want to 0:38:32.280 --> 0:38:35.360 watch out for things like rhododendron, which can be dangerous 0:38:35.360 --> 0:38:37.319 to them and they can be poisonous. So if you've 0:38:37.320 --> 0:38:39.239 got stuff in your garden. Either don't have stuff as 0:38:39.280 --> 0:38:42.840 poisonous to sheep or or be aware, you know, if 0:38:42.880 --> 0:38:45.239 they're getting in there, head to the rhododendrons. Some head 0:38:45.239 --> 0:38:48.200 them off at the past. Sharene would you would you 0:38:48.280 --> 0:38:50.840 like to insert your Well. 0:38:52.800 --> 0:38:57.399 You're just the shepherd and we are the herd following you. 0:38:58.360 --> 0:38:58.719 And so. 0:39:00.560 --> 0:39:03.279 To everyone that wants to be a sheep, listen to 0:39:03.360 --> 0:39:03.960 these ads. 0:39:06.400 --> 0:39:18.359 We're back my Sheep and Unparalleled. Yeah we need Dan 0:39:18.400 --> 0:39:21.280 a little more podcast. It's kind of energy is magical. 0:39:22.440 --> 0:39:25.600 So yeah, shearing right, sharing sheep a very important part 0:39:25.640 --> 0:39:28.439 of having sheep. So this can be hard to mask. 0:39:28.440 --> 0:39:29.680 If you're trying to get the wool off in like 0:39:29.680 --> 0:39:31.320 a full fleece, which is ideally how you want to 0:39:31.360 --> 0:39:33.239 do it, right, you don't. You're not just like it's 0:39:33.280 --> 0:39:34.920 not like when you go to the barbers, you know, 0:39:35.800 --> 0:39:37.160 and they just go at you and his hair on 0:39:37.160 --> 0:39:38.400 the floor. You're looking to take it off as a 0:39:38.440 --> 0:39:42.560 complete fleece, and there's a technique to that. It's you're 0:39:42.600 --> 0:39:44.319 just not going to fucking get it straight away, like 0:39:44.400 --> 0:39:45.759 you're going to have to learn or you're going to 0:39:45.800 --> 0:39:47.480 have to pay someone to do it. I don't really 0:39:47.520 --> 0:39:49.480 know how that works in America again because like there's 0:39:49.520 --> 0:39:51.960 not such a density of sheep, so maybe that's not 0:39:52.000 --> 0:39:54.360 someone who does it. And lots of this stuff are 0:39:54.360 --> 0:39:57.920 getting your use ultrasounded when they're pregnant. I'm not sure 0:39:57.920 --> 0:40:00.760 how you go about that in and of affordable manner 0:40:00.760 --> 0:40:02.759 in the United States. Like if you have a large 0:40:02.760 --> 0:40:05.200 animal vet, you can ask them, but you do want 0:40:05.200 --> 0:40:07.560 to do that right to check that how many lambs 0:40:07.560 --> 0:40:12.959 you've got and stuff, of course, But yeah, so if 0:40:13.320 --> 0:40:14.719 I guess you're just going to have to learn or 0:40:14.719 --> 0:40:16.160 give it a try. Like as long as you're not 0:40:16.280 --> 0:40:18.200 hurting the sheep, if you're taking it off in clumps, 0:40:18.200 --> 0:40:20.200 I suppose it's not that bad. Just you know, if 0:40:20.200 --> 0:40:22.240 you don't want to be nipping and hurting the sheep 0:40:22.239 --> 0:40:25.000 itself when you're shearing, right, And it's just like if 0:40:25.040 --> 0:40:27.759 you if you're a person who shaves or you know, 0:40:27.840 --> 0:40:29.239 cuts her own hair or what have, you know, it's 0:40:29.239 --> 0:40:30.600 not pleasant if you nick the skin. 0:40:32.239 --> 0:40:36.399 Yeah, so sheep need to get rid of the hair. Yes, 0:40:37.160 --> 0:40:39.640 then if we did it exist, how would they do that? 0:40:40.080 --> 0:40:42.920 Well, we wouldn't have bred them selectively to have such 0:40:43.000 --> 0:40:46.919 dents and long fleeces if we didn't exist. So there 0:40:46.920 --> 0:40:50.120 are hair sheep which which have hair instead of wool, 0:40:50.840 --> 0:40:54.000 and those sheep don't need to don't need to be shorn, 0:40:54.040 --> 0:40:58.040 but because for centuries we've bred them to be woolier, 0:40:58.280 --> 0:41:00.640 because we like the wool they're now we have, we've 0:41:00.640 --> 0:41:01.880 made our bed and we have to lie in it, 0:41:01.960 --> 0:41:04.440 right like we the sheep depend on us, and we 0:41:04.480 --> 0:41:06.640 depend on the sheep. It's like it's like the Yin 0:41:06.719 --> 0:41:10.120 and yang and you know of sheep husband. 0:41:10.640 --> 0:41:13.720 That we created without their permission, yea, yea, yes, yeah, 0:41:13.760 --> 0:41:16.919 the sheep sheep that has been forced upon there. 0:41:18.080 --> 0:41:23.400 Yeah, yeah, maybe that's it's not a not a consensual relationship. 0:41:24.880 --> 0:41:26.960 So yeah, that what happens here. And if you don't 0:41:26.960 --> 0:41:28.800 share them, and some some you'll need to do twice 0:41:28.800 --> 0:41:30.799 a year, some once a year, some you worn't at all. 0:41:31.080 --> 0:41:34.120 If the hair sheet right, but they'll get like matted walls, 0:41:34.120 --> 0:41:37.160 so like the like the who and other things will 0:41:37.200 --> 0:41:39.080 like just if you like, if you don't wash your 0:41:39.080 --> 0:41:40.839 hair for a long time, you know, it gets kind 0:41:40.840 --> 0:41:42.640 of knotted and matted, got it? 0:41:42.800 --> 0:41:43.239 Got it? 0:41:43.320 --> 0:41:43.800 Yeah? 0:41:44.000 --> 0:41:45.759 Yeah? So that and also they can get over heat, 0:41:45.800 --> 0:41:50.000 say no more to go further. 0:41:51.600 --> 0:41:53.640 Yeah, that makes sense though, that makes sense. 0:41:53.840 --> 0:41:56.359 Yeah, I don't know how you sell well in the USA. Uh, 0:41:56.880 --> 0:41:58.960 you know, just get on Etsy and do something with 0:41:59.000 --> 0:42:01.279 it if you want to sell. I suppose, you know, 0:42:01.400 --> 0:42:03.399 learn to learn to spin to get a spinning wheel, 0:42:03.440 --> 0:42:06.520 you learn to card card the wool and then spin 0:42:06.640 --> 0:42:09.680 it and then knit it and then sell it. I 0:42:09.680 --> 0:42:12.120 suppose it will keep things for yourself. It'd be fun, 0:42:12.160 --> 0:42:13.359 you know if you have free time. 0:42:14.080 --> 0:42:14.840 What is carding? 0:42:14.920 --> 0:42:18.560 Yeah, it's when you're like like taking the wool and 0:42:18.600 --> 0:42:25.200 like like combing it. Uh huh, like pulling it. I'm 0:42:25.200 --> 0:42:29.480 not superaviny with stuff. I remember again. See it's just 0:42:29.480 --> 0:42:32.040 a different world, isn't it. See we would go to 0:42:32.080 --> 0:42:34.279 like the Black Country Museum when I was a kid 0:42:34.320 --> 0:42:38.839 in school. Not a racial thing, it's just a uh 0:42:39.040 --> 0:42:41.839 it's it's a part of it's part of Britain where 0:42:42.360 --> 0:42:44.759 there was a lot of industry. And one of the 0:42:44.800 --> 0:42:46.200 things I would do was like, oh, this is how 0:42:46.239 --> 0:42:49.720 people used to do wool, you know, like the spinning 0:42:50.800 --> 0:42:53.239 Jenny and like before that, like in cottage industry when 0:42:53.280 --> 0:42:55.920 people would make it a home, or like when you 0:42:55.960 --> 0:42:58.360 go to the Rabberry Survival trust, and I think I 0:42:58.440 --> 0:43:01.080 bet they'll let you do some spinning or cutting when 0:43:01.080 --> 0:43:01.640 you're going there. 0:43:02.760 --> 0:43:04.480 I got a quick explanation for you. I got a 0:43:04.520 --> 0:43:05.560 quick explanation for you. 0:43:05.640 --> 0:43:09.840 So if for those folks at home who have hairy animals, 0:43:10.040 --> 0:43:12.960 you know those kind of like brushes that have fine 0:43:13.000 --> 0:43:15.120 little metal bristles on them, and you're brushing, you just 0:43:15.160 --> 0:43:17.200 take off like a huge clump of hair. Now that 0:43:17.680 --> 0:43:21.160 made you take a imagine you take a fresh piece 0:43:21.200 --> 0:43:24.000 of wool straight off of the sheep and you put 0:43:24.040 --> 0:43:26.320 it on there, and then you just kind of tease 0:43:26.360 --> 0:43:30.320 it out to form it into what looks more like 0:43:30.320 --> 0:43:32.799 like raw wool that you're used to as opposed to 0:43:32.880 --> 0:43:34.719 looking like it was just taking off a sheep. You're 0:43:34.760 --> 0:43:37.120 turning into the raw wall that will then be spun. 0:43:38.400 --> 0:43:43.239 I'm looking at it right now, and it looks absolutely exhausting. 0:43:43.880 --> 0:43:44.080 Yes. 0:43:44.160 --> 0:43:45.839 Fun, sorry, yes, fun yeah? 0:43:46.000 --> 0:43:48.680 Fun? Good thing to do, you know, like get Once 0:43:48.920 --> 0:43:53.080 Twitter inevitably collapses, we can return with a v to 0:43:53.160 --> 0:43:55.240 tradition and do this sort of stuff instead. 0:43:56.080 --> 0:44:00.040 There, you know, yeah, I'm sure texting everybody. 0:43:59.800 --> 0:44:03.480 Video male return to tradition. People already do it. It's 0:44:03.560 --> 0:44:05.520 nice for your hands it's very nice for your hands 0:44:05.680 --> 0:44:08.759 just generally handling because they have lanolin. Right, Lanelin this 0:44:08.920 --> 0:44:11.680 kind of natural. I think it's like a soap thing 0:44:11.840 --> 0:44:14.760 like it makes lathering, but it's very good for softening 0:44:14.760 --> 0:44:17.600 your skin. So you'll see you'll notice it's nice for 0:44:17.640 --> 0:44:21.160 your hands when you're handling the sheep, right, you'll notice 0:44:21.200 --> 0:44:26.320 that's nice hand feeling. It's not expensive like hand cream. 0:44:28.000 --> 0:44:29.440 You're going to have to make sure that you train 0:44:29.480 --> 0:44:32.640 your sheep's hooves. So depending on your size and the 0:44:32.680 --> 0:44:36.480 sheep size and yeah, and your sort of skill handling sheep, 0:44:37.040 --> 0:44:39.600 you might want to get a sheep flipper. We got 0:44:39.600 --> 0:44:41.359 one from my mum a couple of years ago. It's 0:44:41.520 --> 0:44:44.080 just a device that helps you turn the sheep so 0:44:44.120 --> 0:44:47.880 that you can clip its hooves instead of just getting 0:44:47.920 --> 0:44:50.080 in there with the knee. And there's a way to 0:44:50.120 --> 0:44:51.560 do it, and a lot of the stuff you can 0:44:51.640 --> 0:44:54.320 learn on YouTube, like I've I checked before this, and 0:44:54.360 --> 0:44:57.040 there's definitely videos on how to turn them over and 0:44:57.280 --> 0:45:00.480 klip the hoofs. So yeah, you you can give it 0:45:00.520 --> 0:45:03.040 a try. That doesn't work, you can get a sheet flipper. 0:45:04.880 --> 0:45:06.720 You you sort of yeah, you sort to drop your kneeto 0:45:06.719 --> 0:45:07.399 it and turn it over. 0:45:08.200 --> 0:45:10.800 I'm so happy that there is an advice that exists 0:45:10.840 --> 0:45:16.359 called the sheep flipper. This has made my day measurably better. 0:45:16.520 --> 0:45:19.839 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll send you some videos. There's 0:45:20.120 --> 0:45:24.520 some good videos of me trying to turn my mum's 0:45:24.560 --> 0:45:26.400 sheep like so we can click their hooves and it 0:45:26.480 --> 0:45:28.400 was like a wet and slippery and me just fetching 0:45:28.400 --> 0:45:31.279 myself on my ass into dead and the sheep just 0:45:31.400 --> 0:45:35.600 like making a bid for freedom. So yeah, you watch 0:45:35.600 --> 0:45:36.759 a couple of videos. You can work it out and 0:45:36.760 --> 0:45:38.120 if it doesn't work for you can get a seat 0:45:38.360 --> 0:45:40.440 sheet flipper. You're going to have to do things like 0:45:40.520 --> 0:45:45.000 dipping and deworming your sheep too. It's your the wormer. 0:45:45.040 --> 0:45:46.920 You just put in their mouth. It's like a It 0:45:46.960 --> 0:45:50.640 goes in the mouth and you squeeze. It looks a 0:45:50.640 --> 0:45:53.080 bit like a gun, I suppose, or like a it's 0:45:53.120 --> 0:45:55.239 like a little tiny pipe, like maybe a quarter of 0:45:55.239 --> 0:45:57.239 an inch size. You're pinky and it goes in and 0:45:57.320 --> 0:46:00.080 you press the thing and it dispenses a dough. It 0:46:00.239 --> 0:46:01.920 kind of gets it behind their tongue, so don't spit 0:46:01.960 --> 0:46:03.400 it out. Dispensed it's a bit of wormer. 0:46:03.600 --> 0:46:06.080 Gun was the perfect word to use for my American 0:46:06.160 --> 0:46:07.879 ied brain. I'm totally yeah. 0:46:07.920 --> 0:46:09.440 I thought, yeah, yeah, I was going to you know, 0:46:09.600 --> 0:46:12.799 thinking gun, hot dog, bulld eagle or what reference would 0:46:12.800 --> 0:46:16.880 you understand? Right, So you know you're gonna also have 0:46:16.920 --> 0:46:20.719 to dip your sheep to prevent things like scab and 0:46:20.760 --> 0:46:24.719 so that's just literally when the sheep dipped in this 0:46:24.880 --> 0:46:29.640 stuff that sort of cleans them. Right, So there are 0:46:29.680 --> 0:46:31.520 mobile sheep dips, or you can just go to a 0:46:31.560 --> 0:46:33.279 sheep dip. Take your sheep to a sheep They can 0:46:33.280 --> 0:46:36.640 do it there. Again, I'm not I've never seen one 0:46:36.640 --> 0:46:41.400 in the US. I'm sure there are some, but I'm 0:46:41.440 --> 0:46:43.040 not sure how you do that. I think you can 0:46:43.080 --> 0:46:46.120 also spray them for this, and you'll want to check obviously, 0:46:46.160 --> 0:46:49.640 all kind of dips a legal legal, and you don't 0:46:49.640 --> 0:46:51.279 want to be dipping them with cuts. So like if 0:46:51.320 --> 0:46:53.719 you have just been through your shearing and you've cut 0:46:53.719 --> 0:46:54.960 them up, that's not a good time to do it. 0:46:55.000 --> 0:46:57.640 And you don't want to dip thirsty sheep either for 0:46:57.640 --> 0:47:00.360 obvious reasons. Right, what they're going into is not suddenly 0:47:00.400 --> 0:47:05.280 wanted to be drinking. So predation. Predations are an interesting topic. 0:47:06.520 --> 0:47:10.200 Sheep are not really great at defending themselves, and they 0:47:10.320 --> 0:47:12.879 just kind of big flufs. They can sort of butt 0:47:12.880 --> 0:47:14.680 a little bit with their heads and then they do 0:47:14.680 --> 0:47:19.880 do that, and they'll defend their their their little lambs. 0:47:19.960 --> 0:47:23.640 And when we were little and we had dogs, if 0:47:23.640 --> 0:47:25.840 the dog, when it was a puppy, would chase sheep, 0:47:26.760 --> 0:47:29.560 you could put the dog in a little pen with 0:47:29.640 --> 0:47:32.359 a U and her lambs and the U would be like, heay, 0:47:32.360 --> 0:47:34.360 get away, get away, go away, leave my lambs alone, 0:47:34.400 --> 0:47:37.040 and that then the dog would would be less likely 0:47:37.080 --> 0:47:39.640 to chase sheep again because it's had this probably not 0:47:39.680 --> 0:47:42.279 great to get a dog a traumatic experience and the U, 0:47:42.320 --> 0:47:45.840 I suppose, but they'll defend their their lambs like that. 0:47:45.960 --> 0:47:48.279 But you know, when you've got especially if you're in 0:47:48.320 --> 0:47:51.000 North America, right, you've got like mountain lions, you've got coyotes, 0:47:51.040 --> 0:47:55.600 you've got bobcats, all kinds of bigger stuff than I'm 0:47:55.800 --> 0:47:59.759 used to. So a couple of options there. You've got 0:47:59.800 --> 0:48:02.840 guys in animals, right, so something like a lama, a donkey, 0:48:04.120 --> 0:48:08.360 or like a livestock guardian dog. Me is enjoying the 0:48:08.400 --> 0:48:13.440 idea of a guardian donkey, but the couple of different 0:48:13.719 --> 0:48:16.439 badeffits to each one of lama lama can be pretty mean. 0:48:17.000 --> 0:48:20.279 I'm sure you guys have seen them. Like I've been 0:48:20.320 --> 0:48:24.080 spat on by a few lama. They'll then they'll kick, yeah, 0:48:24.200 --> 0:48:29.240 then theyre bitey, and it's just really sort of obnoxious creatures. 0:48:29.440 --> 0:48:32.959 But that yeah, that they don't mess about, so those 0:48:33.000 --> 0:48:35.880 are decent. You know, it looks like one of the 0:48:35.880 --> 0:48:38.040 sheep is just wildly deformed. If it's running around with 0:48:38.040 --> 0:48:42.480 the sheep, you can get donkey. Donkey's also quite defensive 0:48:42.480 --> 0:48:44.799 and very loud, so you know, if your sheep are 0:48:45.280 --> 0:48:47.960 in a field near your house and you have a donkey, 0:48:48.360 --> 0:48:51.440 it's going to kick off. At night, something happens making 0:48:51.480 --> 0:48:54.920 its characteristic donkey noises, and that will give you chance 0:48:55.000 --> 0:49:00.520 to respond, and then you've got your livestock. Indian breeds 0:49:00.560 --> 0:49:05.000 right like like Pyrenees is a great example. People will 0:49:05.000 --> 0:49:07.399 probably have seen my pictures of the statis Udicorn rutch. 0:49:07.520 --> 0:49:10.560 They have Pyrenees dogs very helpful as you when you're 0:49:10.600 --> 0:49:14.359 being attacked by biggots because the dogs dogs will bark. 0:49:15.200 --> 0:49:17.640 But guardian dogs are like inherently they want to guide 0:49:17.640 --> 0:49:19.480 your sheep. So they'll just go out there and they'll 0:49:20.000 --> 0:49:23.480 move among the flock and they'll bark and run off 0:49:23.480 --> 0:49:27.799 any attackers and they're very again, it's entirely in their 0:49:27.840 --> 0:49:31.520 breeding to do it. It's very funny actually, because chuds 0:49:31.520 --> 0:49:33.279 have this like I'm a sheep dog thing, you know 0:49:33.320 --> 0:49:35.360 when when they walk around with like five knives and 0:49:35.640 --> 0:49:38.840 two guns and pepper spray, and then they always have 0:49:38.880 --> 0:49:40.640 a picture of border collie that is not what the 0:49:40.680 --> 0:49:43.799 border collie dogs. A border Collige is like a dog 0:49:43.880 --> 0:49:47.600 with extreme anxiety that it's obsessed with collective security. And 0:49:48.600 --> 0:49:51.960 we'll just like border collie is naturally heard things, right, 0:49:52.880 --> 0:49:55.759 So I'm sure like you've seen people seen like One 0:49:55.760 --> 0:50:01.440 Man His Dog the TV program Again, it used to 0:50:01.480 --> 0:50:05.839 be honest Sunday nights when I was little. It's it's 0:50:05.840 --> 0:50:11.800 a competition as a sheep herding with dogs, competition there rules, yeah, 0:50:11.960 --> 0:50:16.439 oh yeah, perhaps one of them. I've met American people 0:50:16.480 --> 0:50:21.160 who do this competitively, but I think it's more of 0:50:21.320 --> 0:50:24.200 a hobby than a way of life. But yeah, so 0:50:24.280 --> 0:50:26.359 if you can google One Man this dog and watch 0:50:26.440 --> 0:50:30.520 different competitions. Obviously it's not gendered and it can be 0:50:30.520 --> 0:50:34.480 a person and their dog. But yeah, that's what border 0:50:34.520 --> 0:50:36.480 colligues do, right, they heard the sheep and when they're little, 0:50:36.640 --> 0:50:38.480 like you can start them out with herding chickens or 0:50:38.560 --> 0:50:40.920 ducks in your in your like if you have a 0:50:40.920 --> 0:50:43.600 farm yard, they'll they'll go out there and heard ducks 0:50:43.600 --> 0:50:46.480 just by themselves. They want to do it just in 0:50:46.520 --> 0:50:49.560 their breeding. But a guardian dog does not do that. 0:50:49.760 --> 0:50:52.719 It did just protects. But I think, like this is 0:50:52.719 --> 0:50:55.719 one of the things that we spoke about with with chickens, right, Like, 0:50:56.640 --> 0:50:59.880 if you want to have sheep, you're probably going to 0:51:00.080 --> 0:51:02.920 have to either like well, if you're not willing to 0:51:02.920 --> 0:51:04.879 defend them for predatives, probably shouldn't have them because it's 0:51:04.880 --> 0:51:06.560 a bit mean to just put them out there, is 0:51:06.680 --> 0:51:11.000 like coyote bait, a lion bait or whatever, Like you 0:51:11.080 --> 0:51:12.799 might have to shoot something that looks like a dog 0:51:12.920 --> 0:51:14.799 if you don't want your sheep to die, and like 0:51:14.840 --> 0:51:17.200 it's just how it's going to go down, you know, 0:51:17.360 --> 0:51:23.200 Like it's like not everyone has to have livestock. I'm 0:51:23.200 --> 0:51:26.600 not a person who eats animals, so like it's. 0:51:26.600 --> 0:51:30.280 I mean, I think similar to chickens, most people shouldn't 0:51:30.320 --> 0:51:33.000 have chickens or sheep, you know what I mean. The 0:51:33.080 --> 0:51:37.080 vast majority of people, in my opinion, are better off 0:51:37.160 --> 0:51:40.560 not doing that, just because, like I don't think people 0:51:40.600 --> 0:51:44.239 realize the responsibility even with all this information. I think 0:51:44.280 --> 0:51:48.920 some people get too they jump the gun for lack 0:51:48.960 --> 0:51:49.960 of a better fucking term. 0:51:50.080 --> 0:51:52.760 Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, totally, Like don't be rushing 0:51:52.760 --> 0:51:56.839 into getting livestock. Like it's very like I've seen people 0:51:56.880 --> 0:51:58.840 do that before. I've seen people do the whole like 0:52:00.160 --> 0:52:01.680 you know, I'll quit my job as a banker and 0:52:01.719 --> 0:52:03.960 come and live on a farm thing, and like they 0:52:04.080 --> 0:52:06.400 just don't go and work on someone's fun. Right, if 0:52:06.400 --> 0:52:08.839 you want to do that, you learn if you didn't 0:52:08.880 --> 0:52:10.480 grow up in this Like there are a million things 0:52:10.480 --> 0:52:12.319 that I'm not telling you, and I'm forgetting to tell 0:52:12.360 --> 0:52:17.080 you that I take for granted, and like it just 0:52:17.320 --> 0:52:21.000 it takes time and it's complicated and and sometimes it's 0:52:21.040 --> 0:52:22.880 very sad, right, Like I said, she get sick and 0:52:22.880 --> 0:52:27.239 they die and that's sad, and they get predated, and 0:52:27.239 --> 0:52:30.400 that's very sad. Lambs get predated. It's really sad. So like, 0:52:31.440 --> 0:52:35.239 I don't know, it's not for everyone. It's certainly having 0:52:35.239 --> 0:52:36.759 a flock of sheep is quite a big and you 0:52:36.760 --> 0:52:38.799 can't you know, can't just be like, oh right, I'm 0:52:38.800 --> 0:52:39.760 off to well. 0:52:41.360 --> 0:52:44.759 Right, I don't think why people have the land even 0:52:44.840 --> 0:52:48.680 necessary for that, so I don't know. Yeah, anyway, a 0:52:48.719 --> 0:52:51.480 few I'm so passionate about this that I actually have 0:52:51.560 --> 0:52:58.880 to go now Okay, I believe it, Yes, Okay, I 0:52:58.920 --> 0:53:02.920 have to record something else that's ays, so yeah, until 0:53:02.960 --> 0:53:03.480 next time. 0:53:04.160 --> 0:53:05.360 Yeah, keep on parking. 0:53:06.080 --> 0:53:09.440 By thanks. 0:53:09.719 --> 0:53:13.960 By Okay, We're going to briefly cover lambing and then 0:53:14.000 --> 0:53:18.520 we're we can be done. So, like I said, you can. 0:53:18.600 --> 0:53:20.279 You can pick up orphan lambs, a good way to 0:53:20.280 --> 0:53:24.720 add to your flock. The thing with little baby lambs 0:53:24.760 --> 0:53:27.040 is when when they're first born, right, if the mother 0:53:27.640 --> 0:53:30.359 is either won't feed them sometimes she won't feed them, 0:53:31.239 --> 0:53:34.640 or if she dies, they're going to need what it's 0:53:34.680 --> 0:53:38.959 called colostrum. Familiar with colostrum. 0:53:39.360 --> 0:53:41.960 That name sounds more familiar. I feel like it was. 0:53:42.200 --> 0:53:45.960 I'm looking at briefly it was like an athletic performance 0:53:46.000 --> 0:53:49.239 supplement tread, but like it's it's the milk that comes 0:53:49.239 --> 0:53:53.200 in the first twenty four hours, the sexual rich we'll 0:53:53.200 --> 0:53:57.600 need Yeah, from whatever animal, right, and any man or. 0:53:57.640 --> 0:53:59.120 I would imagine. 0:53:59.200 --> 0:54:01.799 Milk produced by the memory glands of humans and other 0:54:01.880 --> 0:54:04.719 mammals immediately following delivery of the newborn. 0:54:06.120 --> 0:54:06.400 Yeah. 0:54:06.480 --> 0:54:08.840 Yeah, that's so better summary than I made. Thank you do. 0:54:11.440 --> 0:54:11.680 Yeah. 0:54:11.920 --> 0:54:15.600 Always, So they're gonna need about five hundred mills on 0:54:15.640 --> 0:54:20.160 the first day. I think it's about a pint. It's 0:54:21.440 --> 0:54:23.000 you want it to be warm, so you can buy 0:54:23.040 --> 0:54:26.520 frozen clossrum. You can buy powdered classroom, but you don't 0:54:26.520 --> 0:54:28.960 want to microwave it. The colossroom has some antibodies in 0:54:29.000 --> 0:54:33.200 it which help the little sheeps, like stomach I suppose 0:54:33.239 --> 0:54:36.040 get ready for the world. So it's why you don't 0:54:36.040 --> 0:54:40.440 want to microwave it. So generally they're pretty easy to 0:54:40.440 --> 0:54:43.040 bottle feed. Like if you stick your finger in, the 0:54:43.120 --> 0:54:46.480 lamb will just like start sucking on that. It's a 0:54:46.480 --> 0:54:48.839 good sign that it's you know, it's ready to bottle feed, 0:54:48.840 --> 0:54:51.600 and it's easy to bottle feed, so that you can 0:54:51.640 --> 0:54:53.480 sometimes do that's kind of a way to lure them 0:54:53.480 --> 0:54:55.960 in and then start bottle feeding them. Sometimes you have 0:54:56.000 --> 0:54:57.440 to sort of rub them a bit to get them 0:54:57.440 --> 0:55:02.480 to feed, and then they like to have their milk 0:55:02.520 --> 0:55:04.520 powder of the if you're doing powdered milk, right if 0:55:04.600 --> 0:55:07.640 with these awful lambs, but every four hours, and you're 0:55:07.680 --> 0:55:09.680 just going to gradually increase the amount you feed them. 0:55:10.560 --> 0:55:12.800 And you know they'll need things like a heat lamp 0:55:13.080 --> 0:55:15.560 right to keep them warm because they don't have that 0:55:15.640 --> 0:55:20.800 big heat sink of their mum embedding and water and 0:55:21.080 --> 0:55:23.000 you know, a bit later you can it's a bit easier, right, 0:55:23.040 --> 0:55:24.840 you can get a bucket with teats, so you just 0:55:25.560 --> 0:55:27.600 you're literally screwing the teats that go on a milk 0:55:27.600 --> 0:55:31.239 bottle onto the bucket instead so they can drink of that. 0:55:32.080 --> 0:55:35.040 But it's a lot of work getting awful lambs. Like 0:55:35.239 --> 0:55:37.280 they'll want to eat about every four hours. It doesn't 0:55:37.280 --> 0:55:39.759 matter if you're sleeping, they still want to eat it. 0:55:39.880 --> 0:55:42.080 Like I can remember doing that a lot where it's 0:55:42.120 --> 0:55:48.560 little and you can get like once the lamb gets 0:55:48.560 --> 0:55:50.040 a bit older, you're going to want to do things 0:55:50.080 --> 0:55:53.160 like you might want to castrate it, depending, you might 0:55:53.239 --> 0:55:55.759 want to dock its tail depending, you might want to 0:55:55.800 --> 0:55:58.239 vaccinate it or you do want to vaccinate it. But 0:55:58.320 --> 0:56:01.840 also like they need time to be social with other sheeps, 0:56:01.880 --> 0:56:03.919 so you can't just get one orphan lamb and raise 0:56:03.960 --> 0:56:07.480 it like some kind of sheep person that they need 0:56:07.520 --> 0:56:10.160 to play with other sheep. They need time to run around. 0:56:12.200 --> 0:56:14.480 They can be quite fun that they'll follow you around often, 0:56:14.920 --> 0:56:16.560 but the lawf and sheep like you can sort of 0:56:16.600 --> 0:56:18.359 run around and they'll follow you around, so that's kind 0:56:18.360 --> 0:56:23.239 of fun. And then you do eventually, like if you 0:56:23.320 --> 0:56:27.160 especially if you're raising a lot of orphan lambs, you're 0:56:27.200 --> 0:56:29.719 going to have ram lambs, right, and so you're either 0:56:29.760 --> 0:56:34.320 going to have to castrate those or sell them because 0:56:34.760 --> 0:56:37.560 you're going to create an issue of inbreeding within your flock. 0:56:37.600 --> 0:56:41.239 Otherwise if you just keep all the lambs right, and 0:56:41.920 --> 0:56:43.960 so that's the thing to think about. If you're going 0:56:43.960 --> 0:56:46.759 to have sheep, at some point you're either going to 0:56:46.800 --> 0:56:48.319 need to buy more or breed them. And if you're 0:56:48.360 --> 0:56:49.440 going to breed them, what are you going to do 0:56:49.480 --> 0:56:53.759 with the ram lambs so you can castrate them? They 0:56:53.840 --> 0:56:57.000 become weathers And that's generally where meat comes from that 0:56:57.719 --> 0:57:02.920 people eat. You don't want to particip that, you're just 0:57:02.920 --> 0:57:05.360 going to pass it on someone else, right, you you know, 0:57:05.560 --> 0:57:10.000 think the unfortunately this is commercial agriculture, even if you 0:57:10.040 --> 0:57:13.480 don't eat meat, like it's about killing animals, which is 0:57:13.640 --> 0:57:18.200 why I don't like to do that. Yeah, so with lambs, 0:57:18.720 --> 0:57:20.960 when you've got pregnant use you'll want to scan them 0:57:21.080 --> 0:57:22.800 see how many lambs there are, and that helps you 0:57:22.840 --> 0:57:28.320 make feeding decisions for the pregnant you. And that's sort 0:57:28.360 --> 0:57:32.160 of when you can look at like how many lambs 0:57:32.160 --> 0:57:33.800 are coming right, how much does she need to eat? 0:57:34.600 --> 0:57:36.120 And then once you've done this, you want to get 0:57:36.120 --> 0:57:39.120 your barn ready for lambing. Just put We used to 0:57:39.160 --> 0:57:41.160 use palletts, you know, palettes things come on when you 0:57:41.200 --> 0:57:44.880 buy like a lot of sheep food for instance, you 0:57:44.880 --> 0:57:46.440 know it comes on a palette with a forklift and 0:57:46.480 --> 0:57:48.880 get under. You can just use those to separate out 0:57:48.920 --> 0:57:51.360 little stalls from to lamb in, put some straw in there, 0:57:52.560 --> 0:57:55.600 and then when they lamb just because again they've been 0:57:55.640 --> 0:57:59.280 bread selectively for so long, they can sometimes strugger struggle 0:57:59.320 --> 0:58:04.680 to deliver and if you're of the means to do so, 0:58:04.760 --> 0:58:06.560 having a vet of course is lovely right, like a 0:58:06.640 --> 0:58:10.160 large animal vet, But generally people who have find me 0:58:10.160 --> 0:58:12.720 commerce you don't have the resources to do that. It's 0:58:12.720 --> 0:58:14.800 just it's just not doesn't fit with you know, the 0:58:14.800 --> 0:58:17.440 cost of doing that, so you mostly do it yourself, 0:58:17.480 --> 0:58:19.240 like I've done it a lot. You and you want 0:58:19.240 --> 0:58:21.800 to get yourself a full arm glove, like a full 0:58:21.800 --> 0:58:25.280 plastic glove that gets like a sleeve glove, and then 0:58:25.320 --> 0:58:26.920 you can you can do a lot in terms of 0:58:26.960 --> 0:58:28.640 like turning the lamb around if it's coming out the 0:58:28.680 --> 0:58:31.920 wrong way, or helping the delivery. And I'll leave you 0:58:31.960 --> 0:58:35.680 to google that on your own time. You just need 0:58:35.720 --> 0:58:38.800 to do all that one. No, it's yeah, it's a 0:58:38.840 --> 0:58:39.920 miracle of life, Daniel. 0:58:41.680 --> 0:58:45.800 Then you just beautiful, beautiful in its own ways. 0:58:46.480 --> 0:58:48.360 Yeah, it's really sweet when you get the lamb out 0:58:48.360 --> 0:58:49.920 and you're like, ah, yeah, I turned it around and 0:58:49.960 --> 0:58:51.600 it's get it pops up and it does a little 0:58:51.640 --> 0:58:54.760 shake and it stands on its litlf feet. It's very sweet. 0:58:55.320 --> 0:58:57.840 It's kind of amazing compared to human babies. Human babies 0:58:57.880 --> 0:59:00.320 come out and like I've seen a few human and 0:59:00.360 --> 0:59:03.480 they're just like not particularly useful or capable in their 0:59:03.520 --> 0:59:05.720 early life. But lambs come out and they like they 0:59:05.720 --> 0:59:07.680 get up and they can run around and they can 0:59:07.720 --> 0:59:10.600 suckle and like you know, within twenty four hours they're 0:59:10.720 --> 0:59:15.280 like a functional tiny sheet. So that that's going up nice. 0:59:15.480 --> 0:59:17.560 So you do want to when they're when they're when 0:59:17.560 --> 0:59:19.560 they're born, right, you just sort of get into the 0:59:19.600 --> 0:59:22.360 little little nose and mouth area and just clear that 0:59:22.720 --> 0:59:24.360 from anything that might be blocking it, just so they 0:59:24.360 --> 0:59:27.120 can breathe. You can use a bit of straw to 0:59:27.120 --> 0:59:30.160 get into the little nostrils just just to sort of 0:59:30.200 --> 0:59:33.560 get any any mucus or whatever out, and then you 0:59:33.600 --> 0:59:35.720 cut the umbilical cord up staying and disinfect that just 0:59:35.760 --> 0:59:39.240 with somemodine. I think you can see actually that I 0:59:39.280 --> 0:59:40.880 send you one picture of a lamb last night where 0:59:40.880 --> 0:59:42.760 it's you can see where it's been disinfected and it's 0:59:42.880 --> 0:59:47.800 umbilical cord. Sometimes you just want to strip a couple 0:59:47.800 --> 0:59:50.600 of like you just want to check that you can 0:59:51.200 --> 0:59:53.320 give milk. Sometimes the teats can get plugged up in 0:59:53.320 --> 0:59:57.919 their pregnance. You just give it a little little squeeze, yes, 0:59:57.960 --> 0:59:59.840 and then then within a week and I want to 0:59:59.880 --> 1:00:03.760 do things like docking tails and castrating. Some some breedscin 1:00:04.280 --> 1:00:07.880 lamb outside, but some can't. So again, this is all 1:00:07.880 --> 1:00:09.919 stuff to consider it when you're trying to buy your sheep. Right. 1:00:10.760 --> 1:00:13.760 The last thing I've got about lambing is sometimes you 1:00:13.840 --> 1:00:16.040 use will reject the lamb you can either try and 1:00:16.120 --> 1:00:18.440 like hold the u in place so the lamb can suckle, 1:00:19.800 --> 1:00:21.440 or if she's really hurting them, then you take them 1:00:21.440 --> 1:00:23.960 away and then you have to look after them yourself, 1:00:24.280 --> 1:00:27.480 and then they become your little friends and you can 1:00:27.520 --> 1:00:31.280 give them names. Yeah, it's very sweet, fine, like I said, 1:00:32.240 --> 1:00:36.960 unfortunately sweet, yeah, yeah, right, this is a thing with 1:00:37.000 --> 1:00:41.040 commercial agriculture, right, Like it's the nature of the thing. 1:00:41.120 --> 1:00:43.360 Like if you're you have cattle, what are you going 1:00:43.400 --> 1:00:46.200 to do with the with the you know, any male 1:00:46.240 --> 1:00:48.720 offspring of any species, right, even if you just had 1:00:48.760 --> 1:00:51.040 the sheep and you want to have them for milk, cool, 1:00:51.080 --> 1:00:53.680 but they're not going to continue lactating for their whole life, 1:00:53.720 --> 1:00:55.800 so they're going to have to have lambs and then 1:00:55.840 --> 1:00:57.000 they're going to have to have lamb. You're going to 1:00:57.040 --> 1:00:58.720 have decide what you want to do with the ram lambs, 1:00:58.800 --> 1:01:01.120 and so it's a difficult thing. It's not for everyone. 1:01:01.160 --> 1:01:05.160 But yeah, sheep wonderful creatures, very friendly. You know, if 1:01:05.160 --> 1:01:06.919 you're walking past, you could you could see if someone 1:01:07.000 --> 1:01:09.200 to train them to come to the words sheep just 1:01:09.240 --> 1:01:12.800 by shouting sheep at them. And if not, you know, 1:01:13.240 --> 1:01:16.160 passes by will think you've correctly identified the species, so 1:01:18.880 --> 1:01:23.200 big dub for you either way. Yeah, the sheep is 1:01:23.200 --> 1:01:27.160 a wonderful animal, the very friendly of all the farmer animals. 1:01:27.240 --> 1:01:30.680 I think they're my favorite, and just growing up around them. 1:01:31.120 --> 1:01:33.600 If you're small, like you know, only do it if 1:01:33.640 --> 1:01:36.280 you're a very little human, probably not old enough to 1:01:36.280 --> 1:01:39.120 listen to some of the content we broadcast. If your 1:01:39.200 --> 1:01:40.840 agent want to be in like single digits, but you 1:01:40.880 --> 1:01:43.760 can ride them. You can sort of sit on them, 1:01:44.520 --> 1:01:46.160 fall on their shoulders and ride them around. 1:01:46.400 --> 1:01:46.640 Wow. 1:01:46.720 --> 1:01:50.680 Really it's not a controlled experience, like it's just going 1:01:50.760 --> 1:01:54.040 to run because it doesn't doesn't want you on its back, 1:01:54.080 --> 1:01:56.040 and you know, it might not be very nice for 1:01:56.160 --> 1:02:01.360 sheep thinking about it, But yeah, many many wonderful things 1:02:01.360 --> 1:02:03.560 you can do with sheep. They're very rewarding to have, 1:02:03.640 --> 1:02:06.120 I will say, But yeah, it's sad. It's also a 1:02:06.200 --> 1:02:09.960 difficult thing. So yeah, it did some big too. Consider 1:02:10.040 --> 1:02:12.280 if you if you do milk, then they make good cheese. 1:02:12.360 --> 1:02:15.640 I think that's the primary reason that people dairy sheep 1:02:15.720 --> 1:02:18.400 is for cheese. I don't think many people are drinking 1:02:18.640 --> 1:02:21.840 sheep milk, you know, please don't let me know if 1:02:21.880 --> 1:02:25.680 you are it's fine. I'm happy for you. No need, 1:02:25.920 --> 1:02:27.160 there's no need to share. 1:02:27.840 --> 1:02:29.160 Now, Yeah, sheep. 1:02:29.680 --> 1:02:32.600 Every every wool pair of socks, very wool jumper that 1:02:32.680 --> 1:02:36.440 you have, every sheep's cheese that you eat, comes from 1:02:36.480 --> 1:02:39.600 these wonderful animals. Now you know a little more about 1:02:39.720 --> 1:02:41.640 and you can get sheep soaked too. That's my last 1:02:41.640 --> 1:02:43.720 plug for this sheep. So it looks like a sheep, 1:02:44.600 --> 1:02:46.640 but in the middle of it, it's so cute. Yeah, 1:02:46.640 --> 1:02:49.360 it's very good for washing your hands. And maybe one 1:02:49.440 --> 1:02:52.560 day we will have Colson Media sheep soap for you 1:02:52.600 --> 1:02:52.959 to buy. 1:02:53.520 --> 1:02:53.720 Yeah. 1:02:53.720 --> 1:02:55.560 I saw pictures of it and it was that's a 1:02:55.600 --> 1:02:57.640 past for me. But you know what, there's a lot 1:02:57.640 --> 1:03:02.280 of people, so more power, more power to them. 1:03:02.440 --> 1:03:07.320 Yeah, disappointing dan anti sheep. Actually, yeah, put post pictures 1:03:07.320 --> 1:03:10.280 of your sheep and tag me and various social media 1:03:10.320 --> 1:03:14.120 someone some people already do. But yeah, that's that's about 1:03:14.120 --> 1:03:16.200 what I got on sheep and any sheep questions before 1:03:16.240 --> 1:03:16.520 we go. 1:03:17.400 --> 1:03:20.160 I mean, you know, I will say each new sheep 1:03:20.200 --> 1:03:23.160 fact brought up another sheep question. But I think you 1:03:23.160 --> 1:03:26.520 did a great job of explaining owning sheep, taking care 1:03:26.560 --> 1:03:31.120 of sheep, rearing, sheep lambing. I mean I've I've. 1:03:30.920 --> 1:03:31.680 Come away. 1:03:33.000 --> 1:03:36.120 With with a with a whole bale full of knowledge 1:03:36.160 --> 1:03:38.080 about sheepis me? 1:03:38.200 --> 1:03:40.200 What about you? 1:03:40.320 --> 1:03:41.360 Yeah, I've I've learned. 1:03:42.200 --> 1:03:47.280 There's the sheep flippers. I cant getting sheep flippers r KO, 1:03:47.400 --> 1:03:49.520 and your sheep to is great. 1:03:49.840 --> 1:03:52.040 Yeah, we can do one way. You teach me one 1:03:52.160 --> 1:03:53.160 r KO, it's down. 1:03:55.040 --> 1:03:56.840 I will teach you by showing you as opposed to 1:03:56.880 --> 1:03:59.360 performing it. But yes, I will. I will definitely teach you. 1:03:59.480 --> 1:04:06.880 Yeah, that's our next live show. But yeah, I enjoy 1:04:07.120 --> 1:04:09.000 the stuff that you now know about sheep. Everyone. 1:04:09.880 --> 1:04:13.720 Yes, and this has been It could happen here find 1:04:13.800 --> 1:04:18.080 us on the internet at cool Zone Media, or it 1:04:18.080 --> 1:04:22.080 could happen here pod. Right, I never do that happen here, pod, 1:04:22.160 --> 1:04:24.120 but I know it needs to happen. Happen here pod. 1:04:24.160 --> 1:04:25.360 Yeah, that's what it is. Thank you. 1:04:26.000 --> 1:04:29.360 Yeah, put it put into the search engine of your choice, 1:04:29.360 --> 1:04:33.160 it'll come up. Do you guys want to plug anything 1:04:33.200 --> 1:04:33.800 before we leave? 1:04:34.400 --> 1:04:35.240 Mia you go first? 1:04:35.840 --> 1:04:38.919 Oh, I got nothing, I got I got elon musk 1:04:38.960 --> 1:04:40.680 got me so I don't have social media anymore? 1:04:40.720 --> 1:04:41.120 Here you go? 1:04:42.040 --> 1:04:44.600 Yeah, yeah, I guess if you're in the US, check 1:04:44.600 --> 1:04:49.320 out Navajoate. You're a sheep every cool Navajatre a sheep association. Hey, 1:04:49.520 --> 1:04:53.280 you know it's good to support indigenous folks. The rest 1:04:53.320 --> 1:04:56.400 of us will be sheep farming. I'm Stolen Land, so in. 1:04:56.400 --> 1:04:59.479 Facts, it's all everything we're doing is all Stolen Land. 1:05:00.120 --> 1:05:02.080 You can check me out on Twitch. I'm twitch dot 1:05:02.080 --> 1:05:04.200 Tv slash DJ Underscore Danel that's. 1:05:04.040 --> 1:05:06.880 It magic, Thank you, danil Cool. 1:05:07.320 --> 1:05:24.240 All right, let's end it. 1:05:24.200 --> 1:05:28.000 It's it's a solo Meda episode if it could happen here, 1:05:28.120 --> 1:05:31.120 the podcast where things fall apart and sometimes we put 1:05:31.120 --> 1:05:34.640 them back together. I'm your host, Mia Wong, and today 1:05:34.640 --> 1:05:36.520 we're going to be talking about why the rent is 1:05:36.520 --> 1:05:40.439 so high. Now, okay, There's there's a lot of sort 1:05:40.480 --> 1:05:43.160 of ways that you could in theory approach this question, 1:05:44.200 --> 1:05:47.600 and I decided that I think one of the most 1:05:47.640 --> 1:05:49.800 useful approaches to it is you take a sort of 1:05:50.920 --> 1:05:53.800 a more a more sort of historical and theoretical approach. 1:05:55.000 --> 1:05:57.880 And I think the start of any kind of sort 1:05:57.920 --> 1:06:00.640 of theoretical approach to rent is by asking what rent 1:06:00.720 --> 1:06:05.160 actually is and the answer to this and this is 1:06:05.200 --> 1:06:08.760 something that is that is relatively consistent across most of 1:06:08.880 --> 1:06:12.000 sort of classical political economy, and you see this in 1:06:12.000 --> 1:06:15.800 some sort of geoclassical economics, is that the thing that's 1:06:15.800 --> 1:06:20.600 special about rent is that rent, unlike you know, anything else, 1:06:21.400 --> 1:06:23.920 is money that you get because you own something, not 1:06:24.080 --> 1:06:27.960 because you you know, have produced anything. And this means 1:06:28.120 --> 1:06:32.680 that you know, the landlord does not produce anything of 1:06:32.760 --> 1:06:35.520 value at all. All they do is extract value from 1:06:35.560 --> 1:06:40.720 other sectors of the economy. Now, this has a wide, 1:06:40.800 --> 1:06:44.919 wide variety of sort of political and social effects. Mark 1:06:45.040 --> 1:06:47.600 saw the landowning class as an obstacle to the development 1:06:47.600 --> 1:06:51.040 of capitalism, and this is an idea. The idea of 1:06:51.040 --> 1:06:54.600 that again, landowners specifically as a class that is different 1:06:54.960 --> 1:06:57.280 from the sort of capitalist class or the working class, 1:06:59.560 --> 1:07:03.160 hinders the growth of capitalism is an idea that a 1:07:03.240 --> 1:07:06.600 lot of different people across the basically the entirety of 1:07:06.600 --> 1:07:10.560 the political spectrum have shared at various times, and this 1:07:10.720 --> 1:07:14.320 causes some very very strange alliances. Particularly in places like 1:07:14.400 --> 1:07:18.840 Latin America, you still have economies that are not entirely based, 1:07:18.840 --> 1:07:22.000 but economies that have enormous landowners who drive sort of 1:07:22.080 --> 1:07:24.919 vast portions of both the economy and of the sort 1:07:24.920 --> 1:07:29.720 of political process and in Latin America, and this is 1:07:29.760 --> 1:07:32.680 true in a lot of other places. It was not 1:07:32.760 --> 1:07:35.880 uncommon for you to get what's known as developmentalism, which 1:07:35.880 --> 1:07:39.560 is an ideology based on using essentially protectionist measures, things 1:07:39.600 --> 1:07:43.640 like terriffs, sometimes capital controls, restrictions on kinds of investment 1:07:43.720 --> 1:07:44.920 that foreign companies can do. 1:07:45.320 --> 1:07:46.480 Sometimes I mean just straight up. 1:07:46.440 --> 1:07:49.600 The nationalization of natural resources in order to develop an 1:07:49.600 --> 1:07:55.760 industrial economy. Now, developmentalism, as our most sort of alliances 1:07:55.760 --> 1:08:00.800 against the land and elite, are politically messy. It draws 1:08:00.840 --> 1:08:03.960 on a range of ideologies from you know, like pretty 1:08:04.120 --> 1:08:08.720 right wing nationalists, some very very very scary people technically developmentalists, 1:08:08.760 --> 1:08:13.160 to liberal and also centrist factions whose sort of productive 1:08:13.160 --> 1:08:16.760 and social base is in a specific kind of sort 1:08:16.800 --> 1:08:19.839 of domestic capitalist who's interested in sort of producing stuff locally, 1:08:22.040 --> 1:08:25.280 and also to people like Bolivia's Evo Morales, who is 1:08:25.360 --> 1:08:27.560 you know, broadly considered a socialist, although I think his 1:08:27.600 --> 1:08:31.160 commitment to anything like socialist politics is tenuous at best. 1:08:32.280 --> 1:08:35.160 But all of these sort of political groups can and do, 1:08:35.360 --> 1:08:37.960 and have various times work together. This is actually one 1:08:37.960 --> 1:08:41.040 of the bases of Morales as well. I guess it's 1:08:41.040 --> 1:08:47.519 not really Moralys's party anymore, but Evan Morales's MS, which 1:08:47.640 --> 1:08:49.880 was a very sort of explicit alliance between sort of 1:08:49.960 --> 1:08:53.080 left wing social movements and then more sort of moderate 1:08:53.120 --> 1:08:58.080 centrist factions who were effectively developmentalist. This is sort of 1:08:58.080 --> 1:09:03.519 a representation of a very common like kind of developmentalist politics, 1:09:03.560 --> 1:09:05.640 which is again this alliance between sort of left and 1:09:05.680 --> 1:09:08.840 capitalist factions who ally gets like large landowners on the 1:09:08.840 --> 1:09:11.519 basis that feudalism, which is which is usually the way 1:09:11.560 --> 1:09:13.439 that like the sort of the power of large landowners 1:09:13.520 --> 1:09:16.679 is conceived, is an enemy to both of them. Now, 1:09:17.080 --> 1:09:20.920 this isn't how sort of develop like states that use 1:09:20.960 --> 1:09:25.640 developmentalist strategies have to work. Germany, for example, uses a 1:09:25.680 --> 1:09:28.639 lot of developmentalist techniques to industrialize in the late eighteen hundreds. 1:09:28.920 --> 1:09:31.160 But you know, the old landowning class, the old sort 1:09:31.200 --> 1:09:35.000 of like like German aristocracy, is allied with the capitalists 1:09:35.000 --> 1:09:38.280 in Germany, and the two you know, the two classes, 1:09:38.320 --> 1:09:41.560 the sort of German aristocracy and the capitalist class effectively birge. 1:09:41.720 --> 1:09:45.440 On the other hand, land owning classes are often implacably 1:09:45.439 --> 1:09:50.240 hostile to industrialization and coundreds that essentially annihilated the landowning 1:09:50.280 --> 1:09:54.160 classes by carrying out land reform tend to perform better 1:09:54.200 --> 1:09:57.200 economically than their counterparts who left a landowning class intact, 1:09:57.439 --> 1:10:00.040 which contributed to the enormous success of the economies of 1:10:00.040 --> 1:10:03.000 countries like China and Japan, Taiwan and Vietnam, who, despite 1:10:03.040 --> 1:10:06.519 their enormous sort of ideological and political differences, all carried 1:10:06.520 --> 1:10:08.840 out lander for in the twentieth century were rewarded with 1:10:09.720 --> 1:10:14.200 eventually by very very powerful in large scale industrial economies. 1:10:14.760 --> 1:10:16.800 But you know, you might be saying me, you've kind 1:10:16.800 --> 1:10:18.320 of put the cart in front of the horse here. 1:10:18.360 --> 1:10:22.080 You've talked about, you know, you've gone into some of 1:10:22.120 --> 1:10:27.000 the sort of political effects of rent first, but you 1:10:27.080 --> 1:10:32.120 haven't actually, you know, explained how rent actually works. And 1:10:32.160 --> 1:10:34.680 so that is what I'm going to do next. And 1:10:34.920 --> 1:10:38.400 to explain how rent works, I'm going to turn to 1:10:38.439 --> 1:10:42.000 an unusual source, the work of the great Venezuela and 1:10:42.040 --> 1:10:48.640 anthropologist Fernando Corneal. Corneal's a fascinating character. He studied anthropology 1:10:48.680 --> 1:10:51.679 at my alma mater, the University of Chicago, under Terrence Turner, 1:10:52.280 --> 1:10:54.320 a guy who I think ninety nine percent people have 1:10:54.360 --> 1:10:56.800 never heard of before, but is probably most famous now 1:10:56.840 --> 1:11:00.240 for being also you know, also teaching David Gray and 1:11:00.280 --> 1:11:03.639 being a sort of major influence on his work. Now, 1:11:03.760 --> 1:11:07.639 unlike David Graver. While Corneal was at the University of Chicago, 1:11:08.040 --> 1:11:10.320 he tried to get permission from the Cuban government to 1:11:10.320 --> 1:11:12.920 go do field work in Cuba, and you know, so 1:11:12.960 --> 1:11:14.760 he gets to Cuba and he's like negotiating with the 1:11:14.760 --> 1:11:17.759 government and the government tells him to fuck off. So okay, 1:11:17.760 --> 1:11:20.639 he tries to go back to the US. But Immigration 1:11:20.720 --> 1:11:24.360 and Nationalization Services, the i INS, which is basically the 1:11:24.360 --> 1:11:27.719 predecessor of like Immigration Services ICE in the Border Patrol 1:11:28.200 --> 1:11:30.320 i INS was sort of dissolved in two thousand and 1:11:30.400 --> 1:11:33.960 three when the sort of like I don't know exactly 1:11:33.960 --> 1:11:36.080 what the technical term for it is, but with the 1:11:36.120 --> 1:11:39.400 consolidation information of the Department of Homeland Security, which is 1:11:39.720 --> 1:11:42.519 really truly a thing that I think we tend to 1:11:42.520 --> 1:11:45.639 think it was only present, but is actually about twenty 1:11:45.720 --> 1:11:48.320 years old, and I am older than. 1:11:50.200 --> 1:11:50.400 There was. 1:11:50.439 --> 1:11:52.960 Also, you know, this sort of outside of this episode 1:11:53.000 --> 1:11:56.639 is like an enormously fascist institution that centralized an enormous 1:11:56.680 --> 1:11:59.800 amount of sort of political power in these like terrifying 1:12:00.080 --> 1:12:04.040 valance and police bureaucracies. But you know, okay, so they're 1:12:04.120 --> 1:12:06.800 back back, back, back, back to the Fernando Coordineal story. 1:12:06.840 --> 1:12:08.160 So he guy used to go back to the US, 1:12:08.280 --> 1:12:10.879 but an asked is the predecessor for all this stuff? 1:12:11.360 --> 1:12:15.040 Like arrest him immediately, and they deport him and ban 1:12:15.240 --> 1:12:20.200 him from the US on the grounds that he he 1:12:20.400 --> 1:12:24.280 was that they suspected him of being a quote subversive agent. 1:12:24.960 --> 1:12:29.960 Now and again, I cannot emphasize this enough. The sequence 1:12:29.960 --> 1:12:33.360 of events here is that he tries to go to 1:12:33.520 --> 1:12:36.639 Cuba and the Cuban government tells him to fuck off. 1:12:37.400 --> 1:12:39.880 So he goes back to the US and the US 1:12:39.960 --> 1:12:42.840 government is like, oh, yeah, no, this guy through the 1:12:42.840 --> 1:12:45.040 Cuban government just refused to lent to do field work. 1:12:45.080 --> 1:12:49.160 This this this guy is definitely a Cuban agent. So 1:12:49.360 --> 1:12:52.240 his his entire sort of like life gets derailed by this. 1:12:52.479 --> 1:12:54.439 He wants up, I think back in Venezuela for a while. 1:12:54.800 --> 1:12:58.440 I think it takes like twenty almost like twenty years 1:12:58.479 --> 1:12:59.640 for him to be able to get back to the 1:12:59.720 --> 1:13:02.800 US to finish his PhD. But you know, when he 1:13:02.840 --> 1:13:04.160 does and sort of be in the process of this, 1:13:04.439 --> 1:13:08.160 he becomes a very very famous and well respected anthropologist. 1:13:09.240 --> 1:13:12.720 Now when I was it U Chicago, like all of 1:13:12.720 --> 1:13:14.840 the people who sort of trained Corneal that that whole 1:13:14.880 --> 1:13:17.200 generation and really like the whole sort of school of 1:13:17.240 --> 1:13:20.559 anthropology that he came from, which is a very very 1:13:20.560 --> 1:13:22.519 interesting school that you know, if if you want to 1:13:22.560 --> 1:13:26.280 like read about this kind of stuff, I read David 1:13:26.320 --> 1:13:29.600 Graeber's Towards an Anthopological Theory of Value. I might do 1:13:29.600 --> 1:13:31.400 an episode on it at some point later, but. 1:13:31.400 --> 1:13:32.479 All of that stuff is gone. 1:13:32.720 --> 1:13:36.280 But but I ran into a professor who knew him 1:13:36.320 --> 1:13:38.799 back in the day, and he told us that Corneil 1:13:39.000 --> 1:13:40.599 was you know, on the one hand, very is back 1:13:40.640 --> 1:13:43.439 to the academic like very sort of like upstanding, like 1:13:43.560 --> 1:13:47.040 member of the academic communitee also incredibly popular, as like 1:13:47.320 --> 1:13:50.400 a partier who just get absolutely wasted and start dancing 1:13:50.400 --> 1:13:56.320 on tables. This guy absolutely rips, you know, and I 1:13:56.320 --> 1:13:58.479 think a very few people outside of anthropology you've ever 1:13:58.520 --> 1:14:01.240 heard of him. But in anthropology O'Neil is important enough 1:14:01.240 --> 1:14:03.000 to like, if you write about the state, you at 1:14:03.080 --> 1:14:06.400 least have to like mention him. And you know, that 1:14:06.640 --> 1:14:08.760 doesn't necessarily mean that like most of the people who 1:14:09.320 --> 1:14:11.600 say the words that the Magical State, which is the 1:14:11.640 --> 1:14:14.439 name of his sort of famous book. Actually have read it, 1:14:14.479 --> 1:14:16.639 but I did read this book. I've read this book 1:14:16.720 --> 1:14:22.679 multiple times and it's really really interesting. 1:14:23.160 --> 1:14:23.479 Now. 1:14:24.680 --> 1:14:27.800 The Magical State, Nature, Money, and Majority in Venezuela is 1:14:27.880 --> 1:14:30.479 probably most famous as a history of the Venezuelan state, 1:14:31.040 --> 1:14:34.760 but that doesn't mean that it's sort of exclusively about 1:14:34.880 --> 1:14:38.639 that history, and in fact, you know it, it really 1:14:38.760 --> 1:14:43.960 can't be. In order to think about the Venezuelan state, 1:14:44.760 --> 1:14:48.840 you have to think about oil. But you also can't 1:14:49.240 --> 1:14:52.439 think about oil in the way that most histories of 1:14:52.479 --> 1:14:55.040 oil think about it, which is a story about sort 1:14:55.080 --> 1:14:56.400 of like high geopolitics. 1:14:56.479 --> 1:14:56.599 Right. 1:14:56.600 --> 1:14:58.800 If you look at history of oil, right, it's about 1:14:58.800 --> 1:15:04.040 like hygeo politics and like prospecting and like trekking oil 1:15:04.080 --> 1:15:07.040 prices over time, and you know, the sort of most 1:15:07.080 --> 1:15:09.479 famous book of this genre is Daniel Jurgen's The Prize, 1:15:09.479 --> 1:15:14.240 which is a fine book, but it shares in this 1:15:14.360 --> 1:15:17.320 sort of tendency to you know, kind of you know, 1:15:17.640 --> 1:15:20.479 unless they're writing about like a die going prospecting, right, 1:15:20.479 --> 1:15:23.439 there's this tendency to sort of ignore the sort of 1:15:23.520 --> 1:15:27.800 material characteristics of oil and the sort of political effects 1:15:27.880 --> 1:15:30.320 of the extraction process, and a lot of other aspects 1:15:30.360 --> 1:15:34.760 of oil that are very very important. And what Corineal 1:15:34.880 --> 1:15:40.680 realizes is that oil is intricately tied to sort of 1:15:40.680 --> 1:15:44.000 the political conception of nature, to systems of land ownership, 1:15:44.080 --> 1:15:48.479 and also to Venezuela and state craft. Now this may 1:15:48.560 --> 1:15:51.920 seem a bit far afield, but in order to understand oil, 1:15:52.000 --> 1:15:56.439 you have to think about rent and rent extraction. And 1:15:56.479 --> 1:15:59.000 that's what Coroneal does in ways that are both sort 1:15:59.040 --> 1:16:01.360 of profoundly interested and I think, in a lot of 1:16:01.360 --> 1:16:05.960 ways profoundly ahead of his time. So Corneal, like us, 1:16:06.000 --> 1:16:10.559 ask the question what actually is rent now? For for 1:16:10.680 --> 1:16:16.000 you know, Corneal goes through rent in a lot, you know, 1:16:16.479 --> 1:16:18.360 and it like goes goes through what you could, I 1:16:18.360 --> 1:16:21.120 guess called economic history of concessions of rent, right starting 1:16:21.120 --> 1:16:25.360 with the classical economists. Uh, we're not that interested in 1:16:25.400 --> 1:16:29.120 the classical economists, because quite frankly, if you're if I 1:16:29.160 --> 1:16:32.080 don't know if you're running into a neo Ricardian analysis 1:16:32.120 --> 1:16:34.240 of what rent is like, I don't know, you're you're 1:16:34.280 --> 1:16:38.080 already a specialist, like stuff is stuff, Stuff is happening 1:16:38.120 --> 1:16:43.920 for you, thus quite interesting, quite odd but we're we're 1:16:43.920 --> 1:16:46.720 mostly going to ignore them because the original classical economists' 1:16:46.880 --> 1:16:50.800 work has it's it's largely not the way people think 1:16:50.800 --> 1:16:54.200 about this now, and to the extent that people sort 1:16:54.240 --> 1:16:59.360 of claim to be derivatives of like these people, like 1:16:59.360 --> 1:17:04.000 people claiming age of Adam Smith, like e that's kind 1:17:04.000 --> 1:17:06.799 of sketchy. Is that we're going to turn to Corneals 1:17:06.840 --> 1:17:11.040 analysis of the way that neoclassical economics thinks about rents now. 1:17:11.439 --> 1:17:13.519 Corneal someone who has spent a lot of time in 1:17:13.560 --> 1:17:16.439 the sort of literature of like oil pricing and sort 1:17:16.439 --> 1:17:19.760 of theories the sort of price formation and the state 1:17:19.800 --> 1:17:21.920 of the market or the effect of political actors on it, 1:17:21.960 --> 1:17:25.479 et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and he argues that 1:17:25.479 --> 1:17:29.840 there's basically two ways of thinking about rent. In terms 1:17:29.880 --> 1:17:34.200 of a commodity like oil. There is a macroeconomics view 1:17:34.200 --> 1:17:37.200 in which the rent someone who owns oil extracts when 1:17:37.240 --> 1:17:39.200 people have to buy it from them, you know, Okay, 1:17:39.240 --> 1:17:41.680 So like like if if you're a landowner, right, you 1:17:41.720 --> 1:17:44.360 get rent because you own the thing, and then people 1:17:44.400 --> 1:17:47.640 have to like take it, like people need it. You 1:17:47.760 --> 1:17:49.320 have it, so you get to extract rent from it 1:17:49.360 --> 1:17:53.080 just by virtue sort of having it in the In 1:17:53.120 --> 1:18:00.400 the microeconomics view, when someone like pays the rent, right, 1:18:00.920 --> 1:18:03.639 what that is is they're paying for what's called natural 1:18:03.680 --> 1:18:07.559 capital or capital that's you know, provided by nature that 1:18:07.680 --> 1:18:10.400 someone now owns through like the miracle of private property. 1:18:10.800 --> 1:18:13.960 And so for these people, rent isn't something that's extracted 1:18:14.000 --> 1:18:16.880 at all, right, It's just someone getting paid for their capital. 1:18:16.920 --> 1:18:21.040 Because the way that they think about, you know, about 1:18:21.080 --> 1:18:23.479 something like oil, is that they think oil is just 1:18:23.520 --> 1:18:27.600 sort of natural capital. Now, okay, it's like this is 1:18:27.640 --> 1:18:29.280 this is in some sense, you know, I was like, okay, 1:18:29.280 --> 1:18:31.439 what like who cares about this? This is kind of like 1:18:32.000 --> 1:18:37.000 this this seems very obvious. But there's also a macroeconomics 1:18:37.040 --> 1:18:42.160 perspective which is very different. And the macroeconomics perspective holds that, 1:18:42.240 --> 1:18:44.679 you know, rent isn't a payment for capital at all. 1:18:45.040 --> 1:18:49.679 It's something paid to landowners by capitalists. And the rent 1:18:49.880 --> 1:18:54.400 that these landowners get is basically the difference between you know, 1:18:54.479 --> 1:18:56.559 what it costs you to get the oil out of 1:18:56.560 --> 1:18:58.120 that you use sort of the landowner to get the 1:18:58.160 --> 1:18:59.720 oil out of the ground, and what it costs the 1:18:59.760 --> 1:19:02.320 person who has the highest price of production to get 1:19:02.320 --> 1:19:05.400 the oil out of the ground. Now, okay, for reasons 1:19:05.439 --> 1:19:08.280 that are very complicated that I can't get into here. Basically, 1:19:08.320 --> 1:19:11.519 the person who is like the worst at getting oil 1:19:11.560 --> 1:19:13.400 out of the ground is the person who sets what 1:19:13.439 --> 1:19:18.000 the price of oil is. So you know, the sort 1:19:18.000 --> 1:19:20.800 of like highest possible extraction price tends to be the price. 1:19:20.880 --> 1:19:24.960 And then you know the micro the sort of macroeconomic 1:19:25.280 --> 1:19:29.240 analysis of what rent is, right is that it's a 1:19:29.280 --> 1:19:32.400 thing that capitalists pay to landowners who own natural resources, 1:19:32.439 --> 1:19:34.160 and the amount of money they get is based on 1:19:34.200 --> 1:19:38.160 how much cheaper it is for like that you know, 1:19:38.280 --> 1:19:40.559 that landlord to get their oil out of the ground 1:19:40.560 --> 1:19:42.840 than it is for like the landlord who's like the 1:19:42.880 --> 1:19:46.000 worst at this. And this is a real question, right. 1:19:46.160 --> 1:19:49.680 The question is is someone who's getting rent paid to them, 1:19:50.000 --> 1:19:53.600 is that rent payment for capital that they own or 1:19:53.720 --> 1:19:56.760 is it money from capitalists that capitalists have to pay 1:19:56.800 --> 1:20:00.599 to a non capitalist class. And cornials answer is like, well, 1:20:00.600 --> 1:20:03.679 obviously rent is distracted from surplus value because out because 1:20:03.720 --> 1:20:08.599 landouners don't produce value. But there's two different sort of 1:20:08.800 --> 1:20:13.240 places that they can get this value from. And this 1:20:13.280 --> 1:20:15.200 is where we have to get into something that's kind 1:20:15.200 --> 1:20:20.280 of weird, and that is the two different kinds of rents. 1:20:20.320 --> 1:20:22.400 But okay, before we get into the two kinds of 1:20:22.439 --> 1:20:24.280 different rents, do you know what else there's two different 1:20:24.360 --> 1:20:27.800 kinds of Yeah, that's right. It is the products and 1:20:27.840 --> 1:20:29.320 services that support this show. 1:20:30.880 --> 1:20:31.760 And we're back. 1:20:31.800 --> 1:20:34.960 I hope you have enjoyed both of the different kinds 1:20:35.000 --> 1:20:39.360 of products and services that support the show. And okay, 1:20:39.439 --> 1:20:42.000 I promise you two kinds of rents, and I'm now 1:20:42.000 --> 1:20:46.000 going to give you two kinds of rent. So the 1:20:46.040 --> 1:20:49.799 two kinds of rent, there is something called differential rent, 1:20:50.560 --> 1:20:52.840 and differential rent is kind of close to the sort 1:20:52.880 --> 1:20:56.880 of macroctive we talked about earlier. So differential rent is 1:20:56.960 --> 1:21:00.360 rent that's set by the price of production on the 1:21:00.400 --> 1:21:03.400 market right now, as we sort of mentioned, prices tend 1:21:03.439 --> 1:21:05.760 towards the highest price of production e's scept by the 1:21:05.760 --> 1:21:08.920 people who are worse to producing it. And differential rent 1:21:08.960 --> 1:21:10.799 is the rent that the rest of the market gets 1:21:11.160 --> 1:21:13.760 by costing it by you know, by it costing less 1:21:13.800 --> 1:21:16.200 for them to extract oil than it does, you know 1:21:17.080 --> 1:21:22.479 for someone who's like the worst at extracting oil. Corneil 1:21:22.560 --> 1:21:25.280 explains these in terms of it. For a long time, 1:21:25.320 --> 1:21:27.759 the US was sort of the price leader of oil, 1:21:27.960 --> 1:21:29.840 and it was the price leader of oil because the 1:21:29.880 --> 1:21:33.920 American like property right system is so absolutely bonkers that 1:21:34.000 --> 1:21:34.639 it makes it. 1:21:34.560 --> 1:21:35.320 Really really hard. 1:21:35.320 --> 1:21:38.000 You have to like you have to like individually negotiate 1:21:38.040 --> 1:21:40.360 with like every person who owns a cow pasture a 1:21:40.439 --> 1:21:44.240 Nebraska in order to sort of like extract oil from them. 1:21:44.240 --> 1:21:47.400 And this makes the production process like very expensive. And 1:21:47.479 --> 1:21:49.800 so everyone else in the world is getting this differential 1:21:49.840 --> 1:21:53.840 rent because they have like a less completely like just 1:21:54.520 --> 1:21:55.640 wild system of. 1:21:57.120 --> 1:21:57.640 Property. 1:21:58.040 --> 1:22:01.240 So the product of this that everyone else is getting 1:22:01.240 --> 1:22:03.479 differential rent because it's way cheaper for them to produce 1:22:03.520 --> 1:22:05.360 oil than it is for the US to produce oil. 1:22:05.920 --> 1:22:08.760 So differential rent is a product of your efficiency, right, 1:22:08.920 --> 1:22:11.600 It's how it's an amount of money that's based on 1:22:11.640 --> 1:22:13.120 sort of the price of oil, and it's based on 1:22:13.160 --> 1:22:15.680 how much better you know, because you're still selling the 1:22:15.680 --> 1:22:17.880 oil at that like the same price, right, But the 1:22:17.960 --> 1:22:20.720 amount that you get, you know, the amount of rent 1:22:20.760 --> 1:22:22.880 that you get is the difference between how much it 1:22:22.920 --> 1:22:24.880 costs you to get this oil out of the grant 1:22:24.920 --> 1:22:29.080 and how much it costs like some sort of American 1:22:29.120 --> 1:22:31.160 dip shit. You have to spend all this time negotiating 1:22:31.240 --> 1:22:35.040 with like thirty thousand individual landowners in the US to 1:22:35.080 --> 1:22:39.200 do it. So that that's differential rents. But there's also 1:22:39.320 --> 1:22:44.040 something called absolute rent. Now, absolute rent is very, very 1:22:44.160 --> 1:22:49.800 very different from from differential rent because absolute rent is 1:22:49.840 --> 1:22:53.400 not really determined by sort of production prices or like 1:22:53.479 --> 1:22:56.759 the market or supply and demand at all. Absolute rent 1:22:56.800 --> 1:23:00.600 is determined by the social power of the landowner. And 1:23:00.720 --> 1:23:04.320 this has really interesting effects, right, because again, absolute rent 1:23:04.479 --> 1:23:07.439 isn't based on the production process and is instead based 1:23:07.560 --> 1:23:12.439 on you know, the social it's it's a social product 1:23:12.479 --> 1:23:18.480 of power. And this, you know, this means that landlords 1:23:18.479 --> 1:23:21.400 and rent extractors can do something that capitalists aren't supposed 1:23:21.439 --> 1:23:23.760 to be able to do. They can get profits that 1:23:23.800 --> 1:23:26.320 are larger than the general rate of profit, and they 1:23:26.320 --> 1:23:29.120 could do it just by virtue of being powerful and 1:23:29.200 --> 1:23:33.439 owning land. And this has a bunch of very very 1:23:33.439 --> 1:23:34.360 weird knock on effects. 1:23:34.439 --> 1:23:34.559 Right. 1:23:34.560 --> 1:23:37.080 If you've ever seen landlords talk about rent, right, you've 1:23:37.080 --> 1:23:40.439 seen the consequences of this. These people genuinely believe that 1:23:40.479 --> 1:23:43.559 they have a sort of moral right to returns with 1:23:43.680 --> 1:23:46.000 no risk all of the time, and that all of 1:23:46.080 --> 1:23:48.519 society should be structured in such a way as to 1:23:48.640 --> 1:23:51.160 guarantee that they have this free income that they do 1:23:51.200 --> 1:23:54.000 fucking nothing to do other than own buildings, and it 1:23:54.000 --> 1:23:56.040 should be guaranteed, you know, it should be structured to 1:23:56.040 --> 1:23:59.360 guarantee this by forcing tenants to pay rent no literally, 1:23:59.400 --> 1:24:03.880 no matter what is happening, you know, like regardless of shit, 1:24:04.000 --> 1:24:05.280 like I don't know, a pandemic. 1:24:07.600 --> 1:24:07.880 Now. 1:24:08.400 --> 1:24:11.280 The other sort of important difference is that is the 1:24:11.360 --> 1:24:14.240 absolute rent does not obey the laws of supply and demand. 1:24:14.560 --> 1:24:16.880 It is a product of social power, you know, it's 1:24:16.920 --> 1:24:20.639 the power of landownership itself. And it's also sort of 1:24:20.680 --> 1:24:23.000 the power you know that the social power. It's not 1:24:23.040 --> 1:24:25.360 just purely the product of light ownership. It's also a 1:24:25.360 --> 1:24:29.080 product of the organization of the landowning class and the 1:24:29.160 --> 1:24:30.920 extent to which they're backed by the state and you know, 1:24:31.120 --> 1:24:35.840 sort of militaries as polices. And this causes economists who 1:24:35.880 --> 1:24:40.160 are attempting to use supply and demand to explain rent 1:24:40.479 --> 1:24:44.840 to get very very important events very wrong. One of 1:24:44.920 --> 1:24:47.639 the things that Corneal points out is that Maurice Adelman, 1:24:47.720 --> 1:24:52.640 who is a very very famous oil economist predicts in 1:24:52.720 --> 1:24:55.719 nineteen seventy two that the price of oil is going 1:24:55.760 --> 1:25:01.559 to collapse based on over supply and competition. Instead, the 1:25:01.600 --> 1:25:04.080 price of oil between nineteen seventy three and nineteen seventy 1:25:04.120 --> 1:25:07.719 four increases by four hundred percents because oil produces banded 1:25:07.800 --> 1:25:11.800 together to exercise their power, and this organization, known as 1:25:11.800 --> 1:25:16.880 OPEK becomes a genuine world power. Here's how Corineil puts it. 1:25:17.760 --> 1:25:20.840 The sharp increase of nineteen seventy three and nineteen seventy 1:25:20.840 --> 1:25:23.559 four in oil prices did not result from a world 1:25:23.560 --> 1:25:26.840 shortage of oil. It was rather the outcome of a 1:25:26.920 --> 1:25:31.080 long historical process by which OPEC nations, acting as landowners, 1:25:31.640 --> 1:25:34.360 developed the means to extract a rent on the basis 1:25:34.400 --> 1:25:38.800 of their ownership of the oil fields, an absolute rent 1:25:39.200 --> 1:25:42.120 in addition to the differential rents they collected in the past. 1:25:42.960 --> 1:25:45.800 In nineteen seventy three, a seat of converging political and 1:25:45.880 --> 1:25:50.320 economic conditions helped establish their collective ability to restrict the 1:25:50.320 --> 1:25:54.160 world's supply of oil. With this power, OPEK felt entitled 1:25:54.160 --> 1:25:57.719 to set market prices of oil, thus freeing the level 1:25:57.760 --> 1:26:00.400 of rent from the previous constraint of the market price 1:26:01.080 --> 1:26:05.320 now rent itself absolute and differential would come to determine 1:26:05.320 --> 1:26:10.160 the market price of oil. Now you may be asking yourself, Bia, 1:26:10.439 --> 1:26:14.559 this is all well and good for describing the price, 1:26:15.920 --> 1:26:18.720 for describing how the price of oil changes, but what 1:26:18.760 --> 1:26:21.559 does this have to do with me? And the answer 1:26:21.680 --> 1:26:24.840 is that while Corneal is specifically focused on resource rants 1:26:24.880 --> 1:26:27.240 for obvious reasons, he is doing a study of the 1:26:27.280 --> 1:26:31.000 state of Venezuela, you can apply his analysis to the 1:26:31.080 --> 1:26:32.519 kind of rent that we all pay. 1:26:33.240 --> 1:26:34.240 If you follow. 1:26:34.120 --> 1:26:38.559 Corneal's conclusions about absolute rent through to the American rental market, 1:26:39.080 --> 1:26:42.880 it produces startlingly different conclusions about the source and sort 1:26:42.880 --> 1:26:45.200 of nature of the so called housing crisis that are 1:26:45.240 --> 1:26:48.920 traditionally presented. If rent levels are a product of the 1:26:48.960 --> 1:26:53.160 social power of the landlord class, the behavior that's otherwise inexplicable, 1:26:53.200 --> 1:26:55.560 like landlords sitting on empty properties instead of renting the 1:26:55.560 --> 1:27:00.479 amount at lower rates, suddenly become clear. Armed with the 1:27:00.520 --> 1:27:03.000 backing of the state's secure at social power by carrying 1:27:03.000 --> 1:27:06.040 out evictions, and with the state's implicit backing to carry 1:27:06.040 --> 1:27:10.240 out technically illegal evictions, landlords can extract both differential and 1:27:10.360 --> 1:27:13.680 absolute rent, allowing them to tell the market to take 1:27:13.720 --> 1:27:16.960 a hike and setting ever increasing rents that renters have 1:27:17.000 --> 1:27:19.160 no choice but to pay or be swept aside in 1:27:19.280 --> 1:27:23.880 brutal anti homeless rays. This has massive consequences on any 1:27:24.000 --> 1:27:27.880 potential strategy to reduce rent. Opek, remember, was able to 1:27:28.000 --> 1:27:30.320 use its social power to increase the price of oil 1:27:30.360 --> 1:27:32.680 by four hundred percent even in a period where the 1:27:32.760 --> 1:27:36.640 actual supply of oil was enormous, by pure virtue of 1:27:36.800 --> 1:27:41.080 organization and the power of their landownership. While American landlords 1:27:41.080 --> 1:27:44.120 are certainly weaker unless organized than OPEK, their social power 1:27:44.160 --> 1:27:46.800 is still such that increasing supply is not guaranteed to 1:27:46.840 --> 1:27:49.479 drive down prices, because in a situation governed by the 1:27:49.520 --> 1:27:53.400 extraction of absolute rent, rent is not determined by prices. 1:27:53.600 --> 1:27:59.840 Prices are determined by rent. On the other hand, this 1:28:00.120 --> 1:28:02.559 means that you can reduce rent by breaking the social 1:28:02.600 --> 1:28:05.920 power of the landlord, and indeed, even in very hot 1:28:05.960 --> 1:28:09.839 housing markets like Toronto and Los Angeles, this strategy canon 1:28:09.880 --> 1:28:14.240 has worked. Tenants unions which deploy the power of collective 1:28:14.240 --> 1:28:17.040 bargaining and the social solidarity of renters to combat the 1:28:17.040 --> 1:28:21.799 power of landlords, have succeeded in reducing rents, and can 1:28:21.840 --> 1:28:24.920 and will continue to do so. But these efforts are 1:28:24.920 --> 1:28:27.400 only the beginning of a process that finally answers the 1:28:27.439 --> 1:28:30.840 question why are rents so high. If rents are high 1:28:30.880 --> 1:28:33.000 because of the social power of landlords, the way to 1:28:33.000 --> 1:28:35.200 bring rents down is to crush the batters completely and 1:28:35.280 --> 1:28:38.240 appropriate them, to seize every last building and plot of 1:28:38.320 --> 1:28:41.080 land from every landlord in the country and drive them 1:28:41.120 --> 1:28:43.519 as a class from the political mainstream into the pages 1:28:43.560 --> 1:28:46.519 of history. And then, and this is crucial, not to 1:28:46.560 --> 1:28:49.839 replace them with another landowning class, or, as the Leninists 1:28:49.840 --> 1:28:52.360 proposed that it actually did, replace them with the state. 1:28:53.200 --> 1:28:56.440 Only by destroying the category of landlord, not by regulating 1:28:56.439 --> 1:28:59.439 it or nationalizing it. Can we finally escape the long 1:28:59.520 --> 1:29:02.960 nightmare of rents and enter a world where people's ability 1:29:03.000 --> 1:29:05.920 to live is determined not by the sort of capricious 1:29:05.920 --> 1:29:09.920 and arbitrary will of a small class of landowners put 1:29:09.960 --> 1:29:13.280 on their human need for housing. This has been it 1:29:13.280 --> 1:29:16.919 could happen here. You can find us in the usual places, 1:29:17.160 --> 1:29:21.760 and yes, go into the world and make the world 1:29:21.840 --> 1:29:32.200 without rented reality. 1:29:34.160 --> 1:29:34.599 And everyone. 1:29:34.720 --> 1:29:38.720 It's me James today, and I'm talking to Derm Cosgrove 1:29:39.040 --> 1:29:43.439 about Wagner and Wagner, they the Russian Mercenary Group and 1:29:43.479 --> 1:29:46.920 their actions in Africa. This is something that I've kind 1:29:46.920 --> 1:29:49.599 of tried to pitch for several years with not much 1:29:49.680 --> 1:29:52.559 success in the United States media, and I'm sure lots 1:29:52.560 --> 1:29:54.679 of other people have two by no means unique in that. 1:29:55.040 --> 1:29:58.360 And suddenly, obviously everyone in the corporate media has become 1:29:58.400 --> 1:30:01.320 something of an expert in their action when things started 1:30:01.320 --> 1:30:04.280 happening in Ukraine. And so what we wanted to do 1:30:04.320 --> 1:30:06.800 here was kind of paint a picture of how they 1:30:06.880 --> 1:30:10.040 have a long record of human rights abuse, and Dermot's 1:30:10.080 --> 1:30:11.679 more expert in Africa, so that's what we're talking about, 1:30:11.720 --> 1:30:14.599 but also in Syria, of course, and I just wanted 1:30:14.600 --> 1:30:17.160 to give some more information. So we recorded this on 1:30:17.680 --> 1:30:20.400 last Friday. Today it's Tuesday, the first of August, and 1:30:20.840 --> 1:30:23.800 we talked a little bit about the Coup Nijier, which 1:30:23.840 --> 1:30:29.360 has continued and since we recorded, Getty Pregausian, who of 1:30:29.360 --> 1:30:32.759 course is the head of Wagner, the founder of Wagner 1:30:32.760 --> 1:30:36.960 that Oligarch is in charge of that private military contracting group, 1:30:37.720 --> 1:30:39.960 made a statements sort of not exactly saying like, oh, yeah, 1:30:39.960 --> 1:30:42.760 we did this coup, but more like saying oh cool, 1:30:42.800 --> 1:30:44.880 I see you've had a coup. What you could use 1:30:45.160 --> 1:30:47.120 is a group of mercenary Russians who are prepared to 1:30:47.120 --> 1:30:49.840 do incredible and horrific violence on your behalf and let 1:30:49.960 --> 1:30:54.439 us know. We'll roll up. Also, since then Ekowas, which 1:30:54.520 --> 1:30:57.640 is the Economic Community of West African State, it's a 1:30:57.640 --> 1:31:02.960 West African block there threatened intervention in Nize if they 1:31:03.000 --> 1:31:06.880 don't sort of return to a democratic process. And then 1:31:06.960 --> 1:31:09.720 Mali earned Bookina Faso to other countries that are run 1:31:09.760 --> 1:31:14.360 by military government's military more or less hunters have threatened 1:31:14.400 --> 1:31:17.840 have said they'll stand with Niche, stand with the Niza coup. 1:31:17.920 --> 1:31:21.679 So it threatens to destabilize again the whole region. Right, 1:31:21.840 --> 1:31:23.920 You'll see lots of misinformation about this on Twitter. I've 1:31:23.920 --> 1:31:26.719 seen a ton of stuff from like oh just tanky 1:31:26.720 --> 1:31:30.280 accounts who don't fully have a grasp on what's happening 1:31:30.640 --> 1:31:33.160 in this part of the world. And I think it's 1:31:33.439 --> 1:31:37.840 quite dismissive to just use Africa to further your whatever 1:31:37.880 --> 1:31:41.720 your political agenda is, rather than treating this as a 1:31:41.760 --> 1:31:45.559 tragedy that will impact people living in these countries. Rights 1:31:45.600 --> 1:31:49.400 between Niche, where people are already often struggling to get by, 1:31:49.520 --> 1:31:52.000 really struggling to make ends meat like sanctions on this 1:31:52.040 --> 1:31:55.000 country will hurt them. Tanctions on this country will hurt 1:31:55.000 --> 1:31:57.880 the poorest people in this country. A military dictatorship rarely 1:31:57.920 --> 1:32:01.280 delivers a better quality of life for people, and I 1:32:01.280 --> 1:32:03.360 would like to see people focusing on that and not 1:32:03.400 --> 1:32:09.200 on some stupid argument about decononization, like it's that's not 1:32:09.240 --> 1:32:13.400 what's happening here. What's happening is the powerful people have 1:32:13.439 --> 1:32:17.240 wanted more power, and they've taken that at the expense 1:32:17.280 --> 1:32:19.200 of the quality of life and often the lives of 1:32:19.320 --> 1:32:24.519 other people. Obviously, with Mali and Bikina Faso saying that 1:32:24.560 --> 1:32:27.200 they would like support Nizia, those are both governments that 1:32:27.240 --> 1:32:30.920 struggle to support themselves and defend their own people and 1:32:30.960 --> 1:32:36.200 capitals from Islamist insurgencies and other like our movement. So 1:32:37.240 --> 1:32:40.680 you know, not a hugely I guess serious threat, but 1:32:40.720 --> 1:32:43.840 still very destabilizing and again like this will have negative 1:32:43.880 --> 1:32:45.920 impacts for everyone living there, which is the thing I'd 1:32:45.960 --> 1:32:48.280 like to focus on. So we're going to start here 1:32:48.320 --> 1:32:50.840 with introducing himself and then we'll go from there. 1:32:53.640 --> 1:32:58.920 My name is Jermat Koskov. I'm a French front Legion veteran. 1:32:59.120 --> 1:33:02.559 I was six years French Foreign Legion and since nineteen 1:33:02.600 --> 1:33:07.120 ninety six I've worked across Africa and the Middle East 1:33:07.439 --> 1:33:10.400 and a little bit of South Asia as a security 1:33:10.439 --> 1:33:16.160 consultant and field security advisor, mainly with oil and gas 1:33:16.200 --> 1:33:21.719 companies infrastructure companies, but also some work with the media. Nice. 1:33:21.960 --> 1:33:27.439 Yeah, so I've been a journalist covering that field for 1:33:27.640 --> 1:33:30.920 not quite long. But one of the things that I 1:33:31.040 --> 1:33:35.080 remember seeing in a pre pandemic is this rise of 1:33:35.080 --> 1:33:39.320 this Russian mercenary group, bargainer group in Africa. It was 1:33:39.400 --> 1:33:43.439 just not an area of interest in any US publication. Generally, 1:33:43.560 --> 1:33:45.559 stories in Africa are very hard to sell. But I 1:33:45.600 --> 1:33:48.160 know that you are obviously on the ground looking at this, 1:33:48.280 --> 1:33:50.599 So can you maybe just start with when you sort 1:33:50.600 --> 1:33:54.080 of first became aware of them and what you were seeing? 1:33:56.439 --> 1:33:59.400 Well, I first became aware of them with their activities 1:33:59.439 --> 1:34:03.960 and the cent African Republic when the when the the 1:34:04.080 --> 1:34:07.280 Mayhem broke up there a few years ago and the 1:34:07.560 --> 1:34:11.160 EU started sending in troops, There's quite a lot of 1:34:11.160 --> 1:34:15.439 heavy fighting. Then it's it stabilized a little bit, but 1:34:15.479 --> 1:34:17.360 there was still quite a lot of fighting going on. 1:34:18.040 --> 1:34:22.360 Next thing, these Russians shot up and it was just 1:34:23.080 --> 1:34:25.880 a little bit kind of Yeah, I'd heard about them 1:34:26.000 --> 1:34:29.960 in operating in Syria, but you know, next thing, they're in, 1:34:30.080 --> 1:34:33.360 of all places, the Central African Republic, which you know 1:34:33.640 --> 1:34:38.479 is a it's kind of is you know a little 1:34:38.520 --> 1:34:41.280 bit of a backwater in the middle of Africa. It's 1:34:41.320 --> 1:34:46.000 it's squashed in between Chad, Rwanda, Burundi, the Congo, places 1:34:46.040 --> 1:34:52.200 like that, and it's historically it's it's been there's always 1:34:52.200 --> 1:34:56.280 been a French French presence there, but it's always been 1:34:56.320 --> 1:34:58.479 a place where there's been quite a bit of conflict 1:34:58.520 --> 1:34:58.920 around it. 1:34:59.640 --> 1:34:59.880 Yeah. 1:35:00.479 --> 1:35:06.280 Yeah, not like a consolidated like nation state really yeah. Yeah, 1:35:06.320 --> 1:35:08.320 a lot of a lot of different people and it 1:35:08.520 --> 1:35:10.759 is not an identity that like fixed with with identities 1:35:10.760 --> 1:35:14.040 on the ground and necessarily so yeah, what was their 1:35:14.160 --> 1:35:16.960 role there? What were they they doing as like a 1:35:17.200 --> 1:35:19.320 mercenary or private military contracting group. 1:35:20.479 --> 1:35:24.240 Well, they they were really operating a bit in the shadows. 1:35:24.280 --> 1:35:27.960 They were they had come in Apparently they were supposedly 1:35:28.000 --> 1:35:32.000 there to train the governments, the Republican Guard, of the 1:35:32.280 --> 1:35:36.479 of the presidential Guard, but they were also there was 1:35:36.520 --> 1:35:39.200 also words starting to leak out where they were involved 1:35:39.200 --> 1:35:44.120 in the diaming mines and they you know, they were 1:35:44.439 --> 1:35:46.920 they were moving all over the country. They were heavily 1:35:46.920 --> 1:35:50.920 involved in militias. Then words started coming out about, you know, 1:35:51.160 --> 1:35:55.320 there was murders on checkpoints that were joint checkpoints between 1:35:56.200 --> 1:36:02.320 government militias and Wagner Group operatives. And next thing, this 1:36:02.439 --> 1:36:07.320 story broke where three journalists, three Russian journalists disappeared. They'd 1:36:07.360 --> 1:36:10.840 been following the activities of Wagner in Central Africa, and 1:36:11.439 --> 1:36:13.040 I think the last thing that we've seen of them 1:36:13.760 --> 1:36:17.479 was that they were stopped at a checkpoint and then gone. 1:36:17.960 --> 1:36:21.960 There was just they disappeared in the bush, and that 1:36:22.160 --> 1:36:24.479 was I suppose that was kind of the first peak 1:36:24.520 --> 1:36:28.439 that these are a nasty bunch of operators. And there 1:36:28.479 --> 1:36:31.880 had been a company in Russia years ago who were 1:36:32.000 --> 1:36:35.280 the Alpha Group, and they had basically they were basically 1:36:35.400 --> 1:36:39.519 the Afghan veterans. Well they operated kind of in the 1:36:39.560 --> 1:36:43.360 shady Ali Guard section of Royal security in Russia itself. 1:36:43.880 --> 1:36:46.679 But Wagner Group were a completely different animal. You could 1:36:46.680 --> 1:36:50.599 tell from the right from the start these were they 1:36:50.600 --> 1:36:51.840 had a different model. 1:36:52.920 --> 1:36:55.160 Yeah, very much so, and like a different model to 1:36:55.960 --> 1:37:00.680 even like there are various I guess, like national perspectives 1:37:00.680 --> 1:37:04.280 to private military contracting. Like there was a time when you, 1:37:04.360 --> 1:37:06.600 like you could sit down in a hotel, bar and 1:37:06.640 --> 1:37:09.200 lots of places in Africa and be assured that someone 1:37:09.240 --> 1:37:12.160 with a South African accent or someone who would claim 1:37:12.240 --> 1:37:14.439 to be from Rhodesia would like come and talk to 1:37:14.479 --> 1:37:16.000 you and that was their industry and they would say 1:37:16.000 --> 1:37:20.400 some racist shit. It's hard for me to not like 1:37:20.479 --> 1:37:22.439 hear a South African accent and be like, oh, fucking 1:37:22.479 --> 1:37:23.760 I don't want to have anything to do with this. 1:37:24.200 --> 1:37:27.439 But obviously that doesn't define everyone from South Africa by 1:37:27.479 --> 1:37:30.120 any means. But yeah, like there was that, there was 1:37:30.200 --> 1:37:33.360 there were a lot of Colombian people in that industry 1:37:33.840 --> 1:37:37.559 as sort of the civil warring Columbia became. But these 1:37:37.600 --> 1:37:41.920 guys are kind of different, right, Like they seem to 1:37:41.920 --> 1:37:46.160 be operating more like on behalf of governments or people 1:37:46.200 --> 1:37:48.000 who would be in government, who would like to be 1:37:48.040 --> 1:37:52.439 in government. Yeah and m yeah, explain how they do 1:37:52.479 --> 1:37:53.439 shit just differently. 1:37:54.640 --> 1:38:00.800 Well, they seem to have taken the well you'll be 1:38:00.800 --> 1:38:06.519 familiar with executive outcomes the South African Mercenary Organization and 1:38:07.560 --> 1:38:11.120 executive oucomes business model was when they operated, they went 1:38:11.160 --> 1:38:14.760 to the client and said, right, okay, we'll sort out 1:38:14.800 --> 1:38:18.160 your problem, but we want a percentage. It wasn't a 1:38:18.160 --> 1:38:21.400 paycheck or a contract kind of a grade dollar sum 1:38:21.479 --> 1:38:25.440 for for a contract. It was they wanted a percentage 1:38:25.760 --> 1:38:29.040 so they would clear like executive ocomes cleared out some 1:38:29.080 --> 1:38:31.720 of the diamond fields in and Gola, and I think 1:38:31.800 --> 1:38:35.559 they're going rate with something like fifteen percent. Wagner Groups 1:38:35.560 --> 1:38:39.160 seemed to have done that, taken that model, but at 1:38:39.200 --> 1:38:41.479 the same time they've rolled in a little bit of 1:38:41.600 --> 1:38:47.879 the Blackwater type idea in Iraq where they were operating 1:38:47.960 --> 1:38:51.599 us an arm of Blackwater, operating us an RMS government. 1:38:52.720 --> 1:38:59.880 They were Paul Bremner's personal guard and or Wagner seemed 1:38:59.880 --> 1:39:05.519 to have of combined the two along with making Hollywood movies, 1:39:06.040 --> 1:39:10.240 because they've made they've made a couple of movies, one 1:39:10.240 --> 1:39:14.320 about Central Africa and there you know, these Rambo esque 1:39:14.520 --> 1:39:18.519 kind of movies, and it's it's just it's like, what 1:39:18.560 --> 1:39:19.759 the hell is going on here? 1:39:20.560 --> 1:39:23.840 It's very strange. It's like, I think we maybe can't 1:39:23.880 --> 1:39:28.519 divorce it from that kind of like global war on 1:39:28.640 --> 1:39:31.519 terror for one of a better phrase like era kind 1:39:31.560 --> 1:39:35.120 of cult that developed around the US Special Forces and 1:39:35.439 --> 1:39:38.479 they're like, it's why you can buy Navy seal soap right, 1:39:39.040 --> 1:39:41.840 and like they've they tried to do a similar thing 1:39:42.000 --> 1:39:45.160 but with a private military contractor do you know, like 1:39:45.439 --> 1:39:49.840 the what's the composition of these most like PMCs from 1:39:50.040 --> 1:39:52.680 I guess Western nations will be ex military people. Is 1:39:52.680 --> 1:39:55.120 that the case with Wagner or where are they getting 1:39:55.120 --> 1:39:55.679 people from? 1:39:56.000 --> 1:40:00.920 Yeah, it's it's from what I've seen there. The people 1:40:00.960 --> 1:40:03.120 that brought in is that you've got a core group 1:40:03.160 --> 1:40:08.479 of Russians who come from the more elite units. Now 1:40:08.680 --> 1:40:12.400 they've been they've been really assigned to be the money 1:40:12.479 --> 1:40:17.800 making contracts in in Africa, so you know, they they've 1:40:17.840 --> 1:40:23.080 operated alongside Malian truce and the whole idea there is 1:40:23.120 --> 1:40:25.519 that if they do take control of zones in the 1:40:25.600 --> 1:40:30.800 Marian government dissing them a percentage of mineral, mineral section 1:40:31.360 --> 1:40:34.759 and whatever in the in the region, they've there's also 1:40:34.800 --> 1:40:39.320 been talk of there are blatant intimidation and protection rackets 1:40:40.080 --> 1:40:44.120 of other Western you know, Western companies working in the Sahel, 1:40:44.520 --> 1:40:47.160 so they'll rock up and kind of we'll look after you. 1:40:48.120 --> 1:40:51.360 Isis or I kinda won't get you if you pay 1:40:51.439 --> 1:40:53.599 us a fee, and then if the company goes well, 1:40:53.880 --> 1:40:57.160 you know that's crazy, then you know, suddenly attacks started happening. 1:40:57.760 --> 1:40:59.920 But they seem to be a core in in Africa 1:41:00.040 --> 1:41:04.960 police and in Libya where they were heavily involved, there 1:41:05.040 --> 1:41:09.000 was a core group of Russians who were there, and 1:41:09.040 --> 1:41:15.679 then surrounding them there was kind of lesser specialized, lesser 1:41:15.720 --> 1:41:19.880 specialized troops, lesser elite troops. And then in Libya, especially 1:41:20.000 --> 1:41:22.240 during the during the fighting there when they fought for 1:41:22.360 --> 1:41:25.160 half darkly for a half there, you had you know, 1:41:25.200 --> 1:41:27.400 they brought in Syrians, they were known to have got 1:41:27.479 --> 1:41:32.400 in a few other different nationalities of basical eyes. They 1:41:32.520 --> 1:41:38.000 gathered in other countries and offered jobs. Yeah, so you 1:41:38.080 --> 1:41:42.240 had I think there was about fifteen fifteen hundred two 1:41:42.240 --> 1:41:47.160 thousand Syrians at one point. Because there's these huge numbers 1:41:47.160 --> 1:41:50.519 of Wagner kind of been bandied about on maps and 1:41:50.520 --> 1:41:54.559 stuff like that on the Internet, and it's smoking mirrors. 1:41:55.000 --> 1:42:00.320 Actual proper Wagner personnel are wouldn't be massive numbers what 1:42:00.360 --> 1:42:04.040 they've got. You know, they're bringing these almost auxiliaries from 1:42:04.200 --> 1:42:06.599 the like to Syria or other places that they've been. 1:42:06.479 --> 1:42:10.120 In, right, Yeah, and they Another thing I guess there 1:42:10.160 --> 1:42:12.760 was unique about them was like with that they were 1:42:12.800 --> 1:42:17.360 obsessed with posting on telegram like I've never seen just 1:42:17.479 --> 1:42:22.519 incredibly online to include like evidence of their war crimes, right, 1:42:22.520 --> 1:42:25.439 which which I guess sometimes not at war at all, 1:42:25.520 --> 1:42:28.840 human rights abuses would probably be more accurate. Yeah, we 1:42:28.880 --> 1:42:32.360 should probably talk about some of those, just so people 1:42:32.360 --> 1:42:34.000 can get a sense of I think what I'd like 1:42:34.040 --> 1:42:37.400 people to take from this, just to like be explicit 1:42:37.439 --> 1:42:39.759 about it, I suppose, is that, like all this stuff 1:42:39.880 --> 1:42:44.280 was happening in Africa, there was no lack of evidence 1:42:44.360 --> 1:42:46.439 or people trying to say and it was not paid 1:42:46.439 --> 1:42:49.320 attention to by the government or media really, especially in 1:42:49.320 --> 1:42:53.080 the US, but also elsewhere. And then every already suddenly 1:42:53.160 --> 1:42:55.800 got sad when it happened in Ukraine because it was 1:42:55.800 --> 1:42:58.639 happening to people who were more valued. And I think 1:42:59.160 --> 1:43:01.360 we can we'll keep sucking up like that if we 1:43:01.439 --> 1:43:02.600 keep ignoring. 1:43:03.760 --> 1:43:07.160 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean, I'm I'm 1:43:07.200 --> 1:43:09.800 shocked in a way that there hasn't been heavier sanctions 1:43:09.840 --> 1:43:13.920 put on because there's been there's been two UN investigations 1:43:14.320 --> 1:43:15.160 to their activities. 1:43:15.160 --> 1:43:18.880 There was the they murders, they were complicit in the 1:43:18.960 --> 1:43:22.280 murder or actively participated in the murder of over three 1:43:22.360 --> 1:43:25.559 hundred millions in a village only a few months ago. 1:43:25.800 --> 1:43:29.400 There's been a UN investigation. They've been found to have 1:43:29.560 --> 1:43:33.840 been there been participants in it, and there's nothing And 1:43:34.120 --> 1:43:36.320 you know, you're not seeing any UN sanctions, You're not 1:43:36.600 --> 1:43:40.800 you know, you're not seeing anything going on. The world 1:43:40.840 --> 1:43:43.759 seems to be turning a blind eye to it. In Libya. 1:43:43.840 --> 1:43:47.719 I mean, the BBC had had a report, a special 1:43:47.760 --> 1:43:52.360 report where they'd actually found the iPad of one of 1:43:52.400 --> 1:43:55.840 the Wagner operators with tons and tons and tons of 1:43:55.840 --> 1:44:00.479 evidence as to what they were doing, numerous human rights abuses, 1:44:00.720 --> 1:44:04.920 and again it's just like, yeah, that's fine, we won't 1:44:04.960 --> 1:44:07.400 really worry about it. Ops Ukraine. 1:44:08.640 --> 1:44:12.360 Yeah, and it's it seems shocking to people. I think 1:44:12.360 --> 1:44:14.400 if you're just a consumer of you know, the New 1:44:14.479 --> 1:44:16.960 York Times or something, Wow, where did these guys come from? 1:44:17.000 --> 1:44:21.080 They're terrible, But they've been there for years, decade maybe, 1:44:21.200 --> 1:44:25.679 and because our news is very focused on certain countries 1:44:25.840 --> 1:44:28.479 and certain things, it came as a shock to people. 1:44:29.160 --> 1:44:33.160 And maybe it just explained like obviously the human rights 1:44:33.200 --> 1:44:37.719 abuses began in Syria. I don't think I need to detail. 1:44:38.200 --> 1:44:39.960 There are videos that people can find on their own 1:44:40.000 --> 1:44:44.439 time if they want to, some brutal executions and such. 1:44:45.600 --> 1:44:48.240 But yeah, could you like at least sort of enumerate 1:44:48.320 --> 1:44:51.640 some instances where where they've done that in Africa? I 1:44:51.680 --> 1:44:53.320 can think of three or four countries at the top 1:44:53.320 --> 1:44:53.760 of my head. 1:44:54.520 --> 1:44:57.160 Well, there's there's Valley as the instant one. There's the 1:44:58.160 --> 1:45:00.320 big one, which I think was three hundreds of Itdians 1:45:00.320 --> 1:45:03.840 were murdered. They basically locked up in a village I 1:45:03.880 --> 1:45:07.360 think was it's Moon or Mooney Money as the name 1:45:07.360 --> 1:45:10.479 of the village in Mali. They rocked up with the 1:45:10.520 --> 1:45:15.280 with Malian troops and proceeded to hunt for terrorists and 1:45:15.800 --> 1:45:21.680 murdered three hundred people, including beheadings and whatnot. And that 1:45:21.840 --> 1:45:25.680 was there was absolutely, one hundred percent guaranteed there was 1:45:26.479 --> 1:45:32.679 Wagner operators did murder and behead local villagers six weeks ago. 1:45:32.840 --> 1:45:36.919 Eight weeks ago there was there was an attack against 1:45:37.680 --> 1:45:42.600 a convoy which included Wagner personnel, and their response was 1:45:42.640 --> 1:45:46.400 to rock into a village and execute ten people. So 1:45:46.680 --> 1:45:50.160 you know, that's two cases that again, unless you're looking 1:45:51.040 --> 1:45:53.280 unless you're kind of aware of the certain sources that 1:45:53.320 --> 1:45:58.639 are available and looking at local, local journalists who are 1:45:58.640 --> 1:46:02.200 in these in these countries, it's not popping up anywhere. 1:46:03.120 --> 1:46:06.160 It's just not coming to life. You know, there's Central 1:46:06.200 --> 1:46:10.519 Africa there there's been rapes, murders, there's been mass rapes, 1:46:10.560 --> 1:46:14.920 there's you know, there's been executions, torture. You know, it's 1:46:15.040 --> 1:46:18.280 just off the charts. In Mali there is actually unknown 1:46:18.320 --> 1:46:21.160 and it's becoming famous in Mali. There is a torture 1:46:21.160 --> 1:46:25.200 house inside one of their bases in Mali and it's 1:46:25.240 --> 1:46:30.200 becoming it's widely known as there. You know, it's the 1:46:30.280 --> 1:46:35.160 multinational organizations, the UN, the EU all know about its presence, 1:46:35.479 --> 1:46:38.040 they all have the evidence, and yet there's nothing. There's 1:46:38.040 --> 1:46:39.040 still nothing being done. 1:46:39.680 --> 1:46:43.599 Yeah, and I think it's easy. I think that happened. 1:46:43.960 --> 1:46:47.120 If you remember when they were riots in France, was 1:46:47.240 --> 1:46:49.600 that people would be like, oh, well, like you know, 1:46:49.640 --> 1:46:51.759 France is in all these countries in Africa, which obviously 1:46:51.800 --> 1:46:55.240 comes from a legacy of colonialism, which was violent and terrible, 1:46:55.720 --> 1:46:59.000 but yeah, there are other forces. Like I remember someone 1:46:59.040 --> 1:47:02.160 positing that like Mali had been liberated from French control 1:47:02.840 --> 1:47:08.120 uh France left, but like these guys came like it 1:47:08.160 --> 1:47:11.200 wasn't as if you know, there was say, you know, 1:47:11.439 --> 1:47:16.439 a democratic transition of power or you know, the desirable outcome. 1:47:17.400 --> 1:47:20.200 And I think, yeah, well, I mean, I mean, I 1:47:20.200 --> 1:47:22.840 mean even this morning, the with the with the coup 1:47:23.479 --> 1:47:26.479 in Niger, you know, there was a twileet put up 1:47:26.560 --> 1:47:31.160 by one of the Russian Twitter accounts claiming that the 1:47:31.320 --> 1:47:35.559 coup had been orchestrated and managed by by Wagner who 1:47:35.560 --> 1:47:41.960 were liberating these from the from the coloniness. It's just like, yeah, 1:47:42.320 --> 1:47:45.360 they actually believe there are you just do they actually 1:47:45.400 --> 1:47:47.599 believe their own stuff? It's just amazing. 1:47:48.000 --> 1:47:50.800 Well it's very well I don't know if they believe it, 1:47:50.840 --> 1:47:52.599 but it seems to be very well targeted to get 1:47:52.640 --> 1:47:55.920 people to believe it online. Right, Like there's this whole 1:47:56.960 --> 1:48:00.040 sort of hammer and sickle in biocommunity that thinks that 1:48:00.080 --> 1:48:04.000 what Russia is doing in Ukraine is denazifying. And when 1:48:04.040 --> 1:48:08.040 you couple with a lack of media coverage of Africa 1:48:08.160 --> 1:48:11.920 and a lack of knowledge of what's happened there, it's 1:48:12.000 --> 1:48:14.960 very understandable that people sort of don't quite grasp it. 1:48:15.240 --> 1:48:18.320 And I think that's that's that's an education thing, an 1:48:18.320 --> 1:48:22.320 a media thing. Yeah, but it's I think I think 1:48:22.320 --> 1:48:26.320 people may not be aware of. Is the one thing 1:48:26.320 --> 1:48:28.639 that has been reported a lot is the heavy, heavy 1:48:28.680 --> 1:48:33.000 losses have taken in Ukraine, right often in like they 1:48:33.080 --> 1:48:36.599 called the almost piano battalions that they have like that, 1:48:36.800 --> 1:48:41.120 they'll have convicts and things like that, Right, can you explain, 1:48:41.200 --> 1:48:43.439 Like I think this might lead people to believe that 1:48:43.439 --> 1:48:45.679 they're not capable of doing what they've done in Africa 1:48:45.720 --> 1:48:48.120 for a long time, But that's that's not correct, right, 1:48:48.160 --> 1:48:52.840 They're still sending I guess operators to Africa. They're still 1:48:53.400 --> 1:48:54.920 doing their terrible shit in Africa. 1:48:57.040 --> 1:49:01.000 Yeah, there's been even recently, there was a lot of 1:49:01.080 --> 1:49:04.080 flights being being picked up moving in and out of 1:49:04.120 --> 1:49:10.000 Africa which were Wagner associated aircraft. And at first it 1:49:10.080 --> 1:49:12.920 was you know, this happened around the time that they 1:49:13.000 --> 1:49:17.479 made them move towards back into Russia, towards towards Putin, 1:49:18.120 --> 1:49:21.160 and there was a lot of questions as to a 1:49:21.400 --> 1:49:26.599 pullout of personnel to support their what's going on in Russia, 1:49:27.040 --> 1:49:29.760 And then it stopped and the flights started coming back in. 1:49:29.800 --> 1:49:32.280 So it looks like there's been a ramp up again 1:49:32.320 --> 1:49:34.840 in a lot of African countries, so they it looks 1:49:34.880 --> 1:49:38.360 like they're upping the personnel now. Whether it's they've they've 1:49:38.400 --> 1:49:41.000 cut some kind of deal where they're now just going 1:49:41.040 --> 1:49:43.920 to be a money maker, I'm not quite sure, but 1:49:44.120 --> 1:49:48.040 you know that'll remained to be seeing if they have 1:49:48.280 --> 1:49:54.960 orchestra Nicher, which is possible, then it's clearly kind of 1:49:54.960 --> 1:49:58.559 a ramp up of operations. They're very, very skilled in 1:49:58.600 --> 1:50:01.840 whipping up local population because they whipped up anti French 1:50:02.160 --> 1:50:08.120 assettlements in both Mali and in Brookino Fasso. And even 1:50:08.120 --> 1:50:11.800 though and you're the French did the French did arm 1:50:12.560 --> 1:50:15.480 kind of drone strikes which you know, did kill civilians 1:50:15.479 --> 1:50:21.840 and stuff, but they they the massive reaction to two 1:50:21.880 --> 1:50:26.599 reasons stunts was definitely by Wagner at the time. 1:50:27.200 --> 1:50:31.559 It is a very lucrative almost informal empire for Russia, right, 1:50:31.920 --> 1:50:34.920 It's a very lucrative way for them to continue this 1:50:35.000 --> 1:50:39.759 process of extractive colonialism and violent subjugation of African people, 1:50:40.479 --> 1:50:43.880 and often in ways that are not that distinct from 1:50:43.920 --> 1:50:46.960 the colonialism that we saw you one hundred and fifty 1:50:47.040 --> 1:50:51.479 two hundred years ago and with real like you've detailed 1:50:51.479 --> 1:50:57.759 brutal human rights abuses and all extends, all to extract 1:50:58.040 --> 1:51:01.160 wealth and resources from Africa get in a very similar 1:51:01.200 --> 1:51:03.519 way to what we've seen before, but in a less 1:51:03.560 --> 1:51:06.080 formal way, I guess than you know with French and 1:51:06.120 --> 1:51:08.200 British colonialism. 1:51:08.360 --> 1:51:11.960 Yeah, it is, it's it's it's very much a corporate 1:51:12.000 --> 1:51:15.760 im period as opposed to a nationalistic imperialism in a way. 1:51:16.200 --> 1:51:18.080 And it's you know, the money is flowing into the 1:51:18.120 --> 1:51:21.640 pockets of the you know, the oligarchs and stuff in Russia. 1:51:22.280 --> 1:51:25.080 I mean they there was a I was in a 1:51:25.160 --> 1:51:29.360 bit of a discussion this morning about about Niegire and 1:51:29.560 --> 1:51:32.240 someone had a comment about there being oh, there's not 1:51:32.560 --> 1:51:35.800 the if you look at them, the Sahel map and 1:51:35.840 --> 1:51:40.600 the mineral wealth that there's there's more attractive kind of 1:51:41.080 --> 1:51:45.280 mineral kind of extraction further south into the Congo. But 1:51:45.320 --> 1:51:48.680 the thing is in and I've worked in Mauritania. You know, 1:51:48.720 --> 1:51:51.320 you had Mauritania, which is three times the size of 1:51:51.880 --> 1:51:55.920 France with a population of four million, and yet only 1:51:56.000 --> 1:51:58.600 one percent of the country has actually been surroted for 1:51:58.800 --> 1:52:02.080 its mineral wealth, and it already has massive gold, iron 1:52:02.200 --> 1:52:05.240 and iron ore deposits and copper deposits. If you take that, 1:52:05.400 --> 1:52:09.080 if you go over into Burkino Faso, it has huge 1:52:09.080 --> 1:52:14.439 gold gold deposits which are under explored. It's relatively the 1:52:14.520 --> 1:52:18.200 vast majority would be artizanal mining. The same with Mali. 1:52:19.479 --> 1:52:22.200 And if you go across into Niger you've got the 1:52:22.280 --> 1:52:25.840 huge uranium mine which is a keystone of the of 1:52:25.880 --> 1:52:29.840 the French nuclear industry arlet, which would be worth a 1:52:29.960 --> 1:52:37.840 fortune to whoever would control the territory. So it's it's 1:52:37.920 --> 1:52:43.160 a very colonialist. I suppose manual to what the what 1:52:43.240 --> 1:52:45.720 Wagner are doing, but it's a very it's it's very 1:52:45.760 --> 1:52:50.320 much a corporate model as opposed to coming in and 1:52:50.479 --> 1:52:54.600 establishing governance. They're they're quite happy to leave kind of 1:52:54.600 --> 1:52:58.040 administration and governments and stuff like that too and go, 1:52:58.880 --> 1:53:02.000 but they want the mineral wealth and they'll you know, 1:53:02.640 --> 1:53:09.439 they will manipulate and embed themselves with local military who 1:53:09.600 --> 1:53:11.880 you know, if you you know you've got Mali, it's 1:53:11.920 --> 1:53:15.640 it's governed now by a military military junta. Niger is 1:53:15.720 --> 1:53:18.960 likely to be the same. And you can get Brookino Fasso. 1:53:19.280 --> 1:53:22.600 It's not quite far off that either. And yeah, so 1:53:22.760 --> 1:53:25.479 they're if you don't in these countries, if you don't 1:53:25.479 --> 1:53:27.920 have the backing of the military, you've got nothing. You're 1:53:27.960 --> 1:53:28.840 not going to be in power. 1:53:29.560 --> 1:53:32.040 So yeah, and then if they could draw the military 1:53:32.360 --> 1:53:34.960 and then they control it in power, right and as 1:53:35.000 --> 1:53:36.960 long as that's amenable, like you say, to their desire 1:53:37.000 --> 1:53:39.479 to extract wealth, and they don't care and. 1:53:40.120 --> 1:53:42.880 Yeah, and it's and you know, the the other part 1:53:42.920 --> 1:53:45.479 of it is they're they're bringing in all the toys 1:53:45.600 --> 1:53:48.559 for the for these god for these governments as well. 1:53:48.960 --> 1:53:53.360 They're importing drones, they're importing weaponry, helicopters. You know. 1:53:54.760 --> 1:53:56.960 Yeah, let's talk about it a little bit, because that's 1:53:57.000 --> 1:54:00.000 something they seem to have. Like Eric Prince tried to 1:54:00.080 --> 1:54:02.519 himself a plane, right and he didn't really do very well. 1:54:02.640 --> 1:54:07.600 And that, like their access to military hardware is it's unprecedented. 1:54:08.080 --> 1:54:12.360 So like where they're able to obtain all that, Oh. 1:54:12.280 --> 1:54:17.360 They're definitely, they're definitely collusion with I mean, whatever tensions 1:54:17.640 --> 1:54:21.879 there are in Ukraine between the Russian military and Wagner, 1:54:22.479 --> 1:54:25.839 there's definitely not any tensions between Wagner and the Russian 1:54:25.840 --> 1:54:30.599 military when it comes to secure hardware for Africa. Yeah, 1:54:31.800 --> 1:54:35.600 I mean, they there was brand new twenty fours unloaded 1:54:35.720 --> 1:54:39.320 in in Mali only last year and they met a 1:54:39.440 --> 1:54:42.600 very very big show of the French leaving and these 1:54:42.800 --> 1:54:48.120 and these helicopters arriving. So you know, there's there's been 1:54:48.160 --> 1:54:52.480 Turkish built drones are starting to are coming in left, 1:54:52.560 --> 1:54:56.480 right and center across all with the aid and shipment 1:54:56.880 --> 1:55:04.160 by Wagner. So they're they have incredible with Russian produced equipment. 1:55:04.200 --> 1:55:06.880 They have incredible access access to it and it can 1:55:06.920 --> 1:55:08.880 only come from one place, it only it can only 1:55:08.920 --> 1:55:12.839 come from the military. And you know, you know, we've 1:55:12.880 --> 1:55:16.520 seen Russian troops arrive in Ukraine with weapons that are 1:55:16.720 --> 1:55:21.960 fifty years old because there's nothing on their basis. Well 1:55:22.320 --> 1:55:24.120 kind of it's very clear that there was nothing on 1:55:24.120 --> 1:55:27.680 their basis because these weapons are shown are being transported 1:55:27.840 --> 1:55:28.680 for use in Africa. 1:55:29.280 --> 1:55:32.040 Yeah, they've done the same in Myanmar, right, They're still 1:55:32.080 --> 1:55:37.640 selling planes, they're still selling munitions there, and it's yeah, yeah, 1:55:37.880 --> 1:55:41.160 it's it's almost like a I don't know, there's like 1:55:41.200 --> 1:55:43.680 a corporate and a state structure, and sometimes it seems 1:55:43.680 --> 1:55:46.120 like especially well we see that in the US too, 1:55:46.120 --> 1:55:49.560 I guess, but they're competing, they're competing desires that parallel. 1:55:49.560 --> 1:55:52.160 One doesn't one doesn't have sort of a video that. 1:55:53.280 --> 1:55:55.960 One thing I do want to get into is this 1:55:56.440 --> 1:56:00.680 culture that exists was in Wagner. That is, it's an 1:56:00.760 --> 1:56:04.760 extreme glorification of violence, right and in a glorification of 1:56:05.240 --> 1:56:09.400 sometimes of Nazism, yeah, of other sort of related kind 1:56:09.440 --> 1:56:12.080 of things that I guess they see as like warrior societies. 1:56:13.000 --> 1:56:15.640 And you can see a lot in the telegram. Can 1:56:15.680 --> 1:56:16.760 you speak a little bit to that. 1:56:17.840 --> 1:56:22.000 Yeah, it's been there's definitely been an element of these 1:56:22.040 --> 1:56:26.040 guys have been recruited from right wing in the in 1:56:26.080 --> 1:56:29.920 the Russian military, and we already know there was some 1:56:29.960 --> 1:56:32.800 of these units were heavily involved with the with the 1:56:32.920 --> 1:56:37.440 Russian football hooligans who had a very hard right leaning anyway, 1:56:38.120 --> 1:56:41.200 and you know, we've seen across like it's been hugely 1:56:41.200 --> 1:56:44.640 in evidence across some of the some of the said 1:56:44.680 --> 1:56:48.360 towns where there's been fighting in Libya where Wagner had 1:56:48.440 --> 1:56:51.440 left graffiti of you know, the sonon Rand and a 1:56:51.520 --> 1:56:56.040 lot of these other Nazi symbols, and there is this 1:56:56.120 --> 1:57:00.840 whole mass glorification of violence from the top down. I mean, 1:57:01.000 --> 1:57:06.000 the executions, the beatings, you know, the torture of local 1:57:06.680 --> 1:57:10.400 non white people in there, you know that they're coming 1:57:10.680 --> 1:57:15.360 upcoming contact. But we've seen it in Syria, brutal executions. 1:57:16.040 --> 1:57:21.040 It's a very much of white supremacist far right. It's 1:57:21.080 --> 1:57:24.080 not even undertones because it's so it's so blatant, it's 1:57:24.160 --> 1:57:26.960 right in your face. I mean, they just don't hide 1:57:26.960 --> 1:57:29.440 it on their telegram channels, they don't hide it where 1:57:29.560 --> 1:57:33.000 they go. You know, we've seen military patches that they're wearing, 1:57:33.040 --> 1:57:37.280 which are you know, extreme right, graffiti they leave behind 1:57:37.400 --> 1:57:40.680 which is extreme right. You know, even I haven't seen 1:57:40.960 --> 1:57:43.520 the movies they've met, but I believe they're they're actually 1:57:43.560 --> 1:57:47.840 there's there's a lot of image there as well, which 1:57:47.880 --> 1:57:50.560 would be you're right up the street of kind of 1:57:51.000 --> 1:57:52.880 neo fascist organizations as well. 1:57:53.760 --> 1:57:55.960 Yeah, it certainly seems that they're pretty explictive about it, 1:57:56.000 --> 1:57:59.200 and no one they don't care. I mean, for those 1:57:59.240 --> 1:58:01.160 you're not supposed to be called it Wagner because it 1:58:01.200 --> 1:58:03.200 was Hitler's favorite composer. 1:58:02.760 --> 1:58:11.760 Right, Yeah, Yeah, but yeah, there's like some of the 1:58:11.760 --> 1:58:16.080 there's there's crossover between some of the other far right 1:58:16.200 --> 1:58:19.240 or organizations and some of the you know, some of 1:58:19.320 --> 1:58:21.480 these units, these far right, units who being who are 1:58:21.680 --> 1:58:26.240 in in Ukraine and Wagner. There is a kind of 1:58:26.280 --> 1:58:28.040 cross pollination personnel as well. 1:58:28.800 --> 1:58:31.320 Yeah, Yeah, it's only seems they sort of go back 1:58:31.360 --> 1:58:33.840 and forth with the military. It's not like I think 1:58:33.920 --> 1:58:35.880 people would say there's more of a distinct entity than 1:58:35.880 --> 1:58:36.560 it perhaps is. 1:58:37.320 --> 1:58:42.800 Yeah, they're they're not They're not a there's guys from 1:58:42.880 --> 1:58:45.760 Wagner will show up with with other organizations from time 1:58:45.760 --> 1:58:48.040 to time, but then they seem to kind of drift 1:58:48.120 --> 1:58:52.000 back to Wagner. And seeing that especially in Ukraine in 1:58:53.160 --> 1:58:55.320 sort as well in Libya, there was there was guys 1:58:55.320 --> 1:58:59.600 that have identified who were operating in you know, with 1:59:00.040 --> 1:59:03.760 Agner in Libya who definitely had you know, had operated 1:59:03.800 --> 1:59:07.720 with other organizations as well. You know, they've been I 1:59:07.720 --> 1:59:10.240 think there was a number of them work had been 1:59:10.280 --> 1:59:13.760 photographed that had actually been id during some of the 1:59:14.360 --> 1:59:18.680 football violence in Marcia during the European Coupled a few 1:59:18.760 --> 1:59:23.240 years ago. So you know, they're they're in this in 1:59:23.280 --> 1:59:26.040 this circle and they're they are moving over and back 1:59:26.080 --> 1:59:30.320 between different organizations. But again it's it's a massive shower identity. 1:59:31.160 --> 1:59:35.280 Yeah, it's yeah, it's part of this giant cluster of 1:59:35.360 --> 1:59:40.720 the sort of armed extreme right. Yeah, has been yeah, 1:59:40.800 --> 1:59:44.000 sort of festering for a long time, unnoticed by a 1:59:44.000 --> 1:59:49.400 lot of people. I wonder like, yeah, yeah, yeah, You've 1:59:49.440 --> 1:59:52.080 mentioned that if people aren't paying attention, they won't see things, 1:59:52.120 --> 1:59:54.040 which I think is right because it's not you know, 1:59:54.120 --> 1:59:57.920 it's not on primetime TV or TV at all. Where 1:59:57.920 --> 2:00:02.560 would you like, where would you go for coverage, especially 2:00:02.800 --> 2:00:05.040 let's say that you know parts of Africa are you working? 2:00:06.600 --> 2:00:10.240 I use I would use Twitter quite a lot to 2:00:10.240 --> 2:00:13.800 to look at what what local journalists are doing in 2:00:14.160 --> 2:00:17.640 you know, in places like Mali and the chair. I 2:00:17.640 --> 2:00:21.720 think I started off. I started off using Twitter in 2:00:21.960 --> 2:00:26.040 Yemen when I was working there because the you know, 2:00:26.160 --> 2:00:29.800 I was fifty kilometers from a town that was entirely 2:00:29.840 --> 2:00:33.120 controlled by al Qaeda, and one of them was on 2:00:33.160 --> 2:00:37.480 Twitter that they were all posting on Twitter. And you know, 2:00:37.760 --> 2:00:41.040 there was some fantastic local journalists who were posting on 2:00:41.080 --> 2:00:44.440 Twitter as well, so you got to see in almost 2:00:44.480 --> 2:00:48.960 real time what was happening in these places. Yeah, and 2:00:49.000 --> 2:00:52.400 when there was no other media really and I carried 2:00:52.400 --> 2:00:56.839 on using Twitter. And then because I do write security report, 2:00:57.360 --> 2:01:00.360 you know, digging around and you had there's a couple 2:01:00.360 --> 2:01:07.160 of online and analysts and awesome people around who cover 2:01:07.280 --> 2:01:09.840 kind of global conflicts, but they do cover quite a 2:01:09.840 --> 2:01:13.240 lot in the heel. Okay, Yeah, so you would have 2:01:13.680 --> 2:01:15.560 like the likes of war and War and people like 2:01:15.600 --> 2:01:17.839 that were very good on the arm side of things. 2:01:18.080 --> 2:01:20.600 Yeah, he's very good at he keeps an eye on 2:01:20.600 --> 2:01:21.360 me mr as well. 2:01:21.440 --> 2:01:21.680 Yeah. 2:01:22.640 --> 2:01:25.320 Yeah, there's a few useful accounts. I think you do 2:01:25.360 --> 2:01:27.200 share them on your own accounts sometimes as well. 2:01:27.240 --> 2:01:29.880 I've seen I do. Yeah, from time to time, I'll 2:01:29.880 --> 2:01:30.600 share them on my own. 2:01:30.760 --> 2:01:33.560 Yeah, what is yours? If people want to follow along, 2:01:33.840 --> 2:01:34.720 pitch your feet. 2:01:35.000 --> 2:01:40.360 It's Dermott and Couse Growth all right, so d or 2:01:40.560 --> 2:01:44.000 Mot and and then coss Growth cosg RB. 2:01:44.960 --> 2:01:47.800 Yeah. It is one of those things that like we 2:01:47.880 --> 2:01:50.080 talk about, you know in many ways, you know what 2:01:50.280 --> 2:01:52.320 people spend too much time on Twitter and that you know, 2:01:52.360 --> 2:01:55.240 when it dies it will be nice. But it is 2:01:55.440 --> 2:02:02.400 something I was talking to colleagues in Rwanda a while ago. 2:02:02.480 --> 2:02:05.680 But I remember when going to Rwanda, one of the 2:02:05.720 --> 2:02:08.120 things that they ask you is that you've verified on Twitter. 2:02:08.200 --> 2:02:10.480 This was before you could buy a verification for seven 2:02:10.520 --> 2:02:13.360 dollars or whatever. It actually allows a lot of people 2:02:13.360 --> 2:02:16.400 to work, especially in parts of Africa. It gives them 2:02:16.840 --> 2:02:20.600 sort of like especially in place with the government's hostileity journalism, 2:02:20.680 --> 2:02:23.760 it gives them an outside audience that will, one hopes, 2:02:23.800 --> 2:02:26.880 you know, make them a little bit safer also to 2:02:26.920 --> 2:02:31.160 be able to share these things. Yeah, yeah, and losing 2:02:31.160 --> 2:02:33.000 that like there's no other platform that does that. 2:02:34.200 --> 2:02:36.200 No, there isn't that. It's a pity that it's that 2:02:36.360 --> 2:02:39.200 it's actually gone down the road. It's gone down. I mean, 2:02:39.720 --> 2:02:42.160 I would be I work a month on, month off, 2:02:42.200 --> 2:02:45.880 so I would be a big Twitter user when when 2:02:45.880 --> 2:02:49.480 I'm at work, because you know, gathering information from my 2:02:49.560 --> 2:02:54.000 reports and so yeah, and then at home I'm not 2:02:54.080 --> 2:02:57.960 on it so much. But you know, for local journalists 2:02:58.080 --> 2:03:02.200 and activists, it you know, it's a fantastic The whole 2:03:02.200 --> 2:03:05.080 idea is fantastic because they are able to get that 2:03:05.160 --> 2:03:09.040 message out. They are more visible in countries where they've 2:03:09.080 --> 2:03:12.080 got repressive regimes, and it keeps an eye on them, 2:03:12.080 --> 2:03:16.960 and you're the more visibility they have. It wouldn't be 2:03:16.960 --> 2:03:19.920 one hundred percent safe, but they are a little bit safer. 2:03:20.040 --> 2:03:22.520 Yeah, I've seen it with colleagues in me and mar 2:03:22.560 --> 2:03:26.360 as well, just sort of it's aroundly out there to 2:03:26.400 --> 2:03:28.480 the world, you know, the Irrawady and all these other 2:03:28.560 --> 2:03:34.000 publications which are able to get things out, and lots 2:03:34.040 --> 2:03:36.280 of those people are in hiding, you know, like they 2:03:36.320 --> 2:03:39.560 can't operate in cities, and they're able to get things 2:03:39.560 --> 2:03:42.160 out to the world. So for that alone, it's valuable. 2:03:42.480 --> 2:03:44.400 And yeah, it's a shame that it seems to be 2:03:44.400 --> 2:03:45.200 go anywhere it's going. 2:03:46.360 --> 2:03:48.480 Yeah, I think I think there was even the you know, 2:03:49.120 --> 2:03:53.160 during the well even currently, there's still some still some 2:03:53.200 --> 2:03:57.080 people in Afghanistan who are it's their only outlet to 2:03:57.080 --> 2:03:59.839 get information out about what's happening under the Taliban. 2:04:01.000 --> 2:04:04.720 Yeah. Yeah, I've in touch with a few people in 2:04:04.760 --> 2:04:07.280 Afghanistania that it's you know, that would all be lost. 2:04:07.280 --> 2:04:10.280 I wouldn't have ever found them otherwise, or some of 2:04:10.280 --> 2:04:14.200 them through friends. Yeah, and I want a piny up 2:04:14.240 --> 2:04:18.160 by asking, like the stuff that Wagner has done in 2:04:18.200 --> 2:04:21.560 Africa is repulsive. Stuff done in Syria is disgusting, Like 2:04:21.720 --> 2:04:24.920 what if if you had your your like if you 2:04:24.960 --> 2:04:27.360 had your way, Like, how can people or how can 2:04:27.440 --> 2:04:30.640 governments or what can we do to stop this kind 2:04:30.680 --> 2:04:33.360 of you know, human rights abuse. 2:04:35.360 --> 2:04:37.920 I think there's as much pressure should be can that 2:04:38.000 --> 2:04:42.840 can be put on in states obviously with congressmen and 2:04:42.920 --> 2:04:45.760 senators that if people go to them there in the 2:04:45.840 --> 2:04:51.440 UK government, you know, I'm Irish. You know, we have 2:04:51.520 --> 2:04:54.840 a long history of peacekeeping and stuff like that, and 2:04:54.920 --> 2:04:57.680 you know, investigations of human rights abuses, so you know, 2:04:57.760 --> 2:05:01.000 it's putting pressure on your politicians that action needs to 2:05:01.000 --> 2:05:04.040 be taken, you know. And the U n I'm but 2:05:04.120 --> 2:05:06.480 I'm not a massive vanity win because they have been 2:05:06.480 --> 2:05:09.960 so ineffectual in places. I mean, my my brother was 2:05:10.000 --> 2:05:13.880 in was in Lebanon on three separate occasions with the 2:05:14.040 --> 2:05:16.880 with the U Utiful Force and came home described with this, 2:05:17.080 --> 2:05:20.120 you know, one hand clapping because they they even ham 2:05:20.320 --> 2:05:24.400 strung their own people. But you know, there there isn't 2:05:24.760 --> 2:05:28.400 outside of the EU which can enforce sanctions on them. 2:05:28.600 --> 2:05:31.760 You know, there needs to be massive sanctions on anyone 2:05:31.800 --> 2:05:35.720 associated with Wagner. Yeah, and there needs to be more. 2:05:35.960 --> 2:05:39.440 I mean, you know, the the EU has pretty much 2:05:39.480 --> 2:05:42.120 been kicked out of the Sahel. There needs to be 2:05:42.160 --> 2:05:46.280 more a better relationship built up with these with these 2:05:46.400 --> 2:05:50.520 organized these governments. As repulsive as some of these governments are, 2:05:51.480 --> 2:05:54.280 there is no real other choice. But there has to 2:05:54.280 --> 2:05:57.320 be a way where Wagner have to be highlighted. If 2:05:57.360 --> 2:06:01.120 you know, journalists, get to journalists, ask them, why isn't 2:06:01.120 --> 2:06:04.120 he Why aren't these questions being asked? Is it? You know, 2:06:04.160 --> 2:06:06.360 why is it only being the focus? And I'm a 2:06:06.360 --> 2:06:11.000 big supporter of Ukraine, but why is it only since 2:06:11.200 --> 2:06:16.600 Ukraine that we're seeing wave televisions? Yeah, yeah, they've been 2:06:16.760 --> 2:06:19.080 They've been murdering people, they were putting you know, they 2:06:19.120 --> 2:06:22.800 were boobly trapping kids, toys and literally as they retreated 2:06:22.840 --> 2:06:27.320 out of out of western Libya. Yet none of that appeared, 2:06:27.640 --> 2:06:31.320 you know, the one BBC report and it came out 2:06:31.760 --> 2:06:36.400 and it died afterwards, which you know, is you know, horrendous. 2:06:36.640 --> 2:06:38.560 You know, this needs to be They need to be 2:06:38.560 --> 2:06:39.720 hammered left for the center. 2:06:40.240 --> 2:06:41.760 Yeah, and I think a lot You're right, a lot 2:06:41.800 --> 2:06:44.000 of that comes from if you find editors, you can 2:06:44.000 --> 2:06:45.480 ask them why they haven't come at this what it 2:06:45.520 --> 2:06:48.040 was happening in Affrica, like they were putting human beings 2:06:48.080 --> 2:06:49.160 and holes in the ground. 2:06:50.400 --> 2:06:52.840 Yeah, I mean, you know, if you're on Twitter, jump 2:06:52.960 --> 2:06:57.240 on Twitter, follow the follow editors news organizations and you know, 2:06:57.320 --> 2:07:00.320 tweet at them. Just why aren't you covering us? 2:07:01.360 --> 2:07:04.000 Yeah, make them say or make people explain why this 2:07:04.080 --> 2:07:06.080 doesn't matter as much. In the same with your politicians. 2:07:06.080 --> 2:07:09.880 I know sometimes writing to politicians can seem ineffectual, but 2:07:10.160 --> 2:07:13.600 like I can't put sanctions on them, you know, and 2:07:13.640 --> 2:07:16.920 I can't. I don't have the ability to project force. 2:07:17.680 --> 2:07:21.320 Yeah, and I don't think there's nothing that Wagner produced 2:07:21.360 --> 2:07:23.760 that you can kind of go, well, I'm not going 2:07:23.840 --> 2:07:26.200 to buy you know, I'm not going to buy this 2:07:26.280 --> 2:07:30.680 product because it impacts They don't care, They're they're not 2:07:30.840 --> 2:07:35.560 selling to the consumer. They're you know, they're stealing to 2:07:35.600 --> 2:07:36.960 put in their own buckets. 2:07:37.400 --> 2:07:40.320 Yes, exactly, Yeah, Yeah, I think it was. That was wonderful, 2:07:40.360 --> 2:07:42.640 Dare That's Is there anything you want to else you 2:07:42.680 --> 2:07:45.040 on a plug or anywhere else people can find you 2:07:45.160 --> 2:07:46.800 learn out more, learn more about the stuff. 2:07:47.200 --> 2:07:51.280 Well, well, I'm on Twitter is probably the best beast. 2:07:51.880 --> 2:07:53.720 I have kind of promised myself to do a little 2:07:53.760 --> 2:07:57.800 bit more kind of on the highlighting the conflict in 2:07:58.280 --> 2:08:03.400 because because I work in North Africa, and even though 2:08:03.400 --> 2:08:05.280 I'm not in the hell itself, the the hell has 2:08:05.280 --> 2:08:08.400 been It's always been a massive area of interest for me. 2:08:09.000 --> 2:08:14.040 So I've kind of I probably will kind of flip 2:08:14.120 --> 2:08:17.720 my my Twitter around a bit more to reflect what's 2:08:17.760 --> 2:08:22.680 going on in across the cell. Yeah, so I'm on there. 2:08:23.600 --> 2:08:26.360 I've got I've got an Instagram account, but that's only 2:08:26.400 --> 2:08:27.800 really if you like pictures of dogs. 2:08:30.120 --> 2:08:32.040 Yeah, that's that's what it's good for. 2:08:32.240 --> 2:08:32.440 Yeah. 2:08:32.440 --> 2:08:33.960 Well, thank you very much for your time, debit. We 2:08:34.000 --> 2:08:37.120 appreciate it. And yeah, I already learn a bit more 2:08:37.120 --> 2:08:37.520 about this. 2:08:52.040 --> 2:08:54.960 Hello, welcome to It could happen here. Yes, this is 2:08:54.960 --> 2:08:58.640 what I sound like today. This is Sharine. Just go 2:08:58.680 --> 2:09:00.680 with it. If you listen to the Sheep episode, I 2:09:00.760 --> 2:09:04.320 sounded much worse. So this is I sound great today, 2:09:04.360 --> 2:09:09.520 I amo, But yeah, thank you for listening today. I'm 2:09:09.720 --> 2:09:11.560 excited to talk about what I want to talk about 2:09:11.600 --> 2:09:13.480 for the next two days because it's something that I've 2:09:13.480 --> 2:09:16.200 always wanted to kind of just like open up as 2:09:16.280 --> 2:09:20.480 more of a conversation. And I'm so grateful to have 2:09:21.120 --> 2:09:25.080 an author and amazing person. They've just written a book 2:09:25.120 --> 2:09:27.640 called To the Ghosts Who Are Still Living and it's 2:09:27.680 --> 2:09:31.320 out now you can go get it. I'm the Wine Traub. 2:09:31.680 --> 2:09:34.760 Thank you so much for joining me. I'm so excited 2:09:34.760 --> 2:09:35.280 to talk to you. 2:09:36.120 --> 2:09:37.880 Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk to 2:09:37.880 --> 2:09:38.200 you too. 2:09:38.800 --> 2:09:40.960 There's a particular reason why I asked you to come 2:09:41.000 --> 2:09:44.320 on the show. I specifically wanted to talk to a 2:09:44.400 --> 2:09:48.080 Jewish anti Zionist. So I want to approach the conversation 2:09:48.880 --> 2:09:52.320 as if people are really unfamiliar with Zionism, because I 2:09:52.360 --> 2:09:56.080 think most people are. Can you maybe just start by 2:09:56.080 --> 2:09:58.800 telling me, like what is Zionism? 2:10:00.320 --> 2:10:04.040 Definitely? Yeah, And I said to sharing before as well, 2:10:04.080 --> 2:10:08.800 like I am not particularly like an expert on Zionism 2:10:09.040 --> 2:10:12.520 or Israel Palestine. So also just want to recommend that 2:10:12.560 --> 2:10:16.560 listeners also go out and find the experts, find the 2:10:16.600 --> 2:10:19.520 materials that you're interested in, if this conversation sparks your interest, 2:10:20.920 --> 2:10:24.120 and take my thoughts as just one thought in the 2:10:24.120 --> 2:10:27.360 mix of all the thoughts. So yeah, when I was 2:10:27.360 --> 2:10:34.120 thinking about like defining Zionism, I was thinking about sort 2:10:34.120 --> 2:10:36.280 of like the origins of Zionism and like how did 2:10:36.320 --> 2:10:42.320 we even get to that place? And Zionism for me 2:10:42.520 --> 2:10:47.640 reflects and I think is like this political desire to 2:10:47.840 --> 2:10:52.320 have a Jewish state, and to have that Jewish state 2:10:52.400 --> 2:10:57.640 like on the land of Israel. Is how is how 2:10:57.800 --> 2:11:04.240 Zionism has materialized in its formation, and prior to like 2:11:04.320 --> 2:11:08.280 the actual political movement of Zionism, there has been like 2:11:08.320 --> 2:11:12.640 a connection of the Jewish people to that specific land, 2:11:14.120 --> 2:11:17.680 it just hadn't materialized into like an actual movement to 2:11:17.840 --> 2:11:24.320 establish a state on that land. So there's like there's 2:11:24.360 --> 2:11:27.240 been like a yearning and like a memory and like 2:11:27.280 --> 2:11:33.280 a collective sense of connection to like Jerusalem, to that 2:11:33.760 --> 2:11:37.560 piece of land. But it was only in like the 2:11:37.920 --> 2:11:43.320 eighteen hundreds, when there was nation state building occurring in 2:11:43.320 --> 2:11:50.160 general in Europe, specifically in Eastern Europe, that the movement 2:11:50.280 --> 2:11:53.320 for Zionism started to develop in the form that we 2:11:53.360 --> 2:11:57.160 have today. And a lot of that was because one reason, 2:11:57.280 --> 2:12:02.080 like Jews were saying, oh wow, like German people are 2:12:02.080 --> 2:12:04.280 creating a state or French people are creating a state, 2:12:04.960 --> 2:12:07.040 like we are a people, we should have a state. 2:12:08.320 --> 2:12:11.360 And at the same time, Jews were also being excluded 2:12:11.400 --> 2:12:16.000 from citizenship in a lot of the actual like newly 2:12:16.040 --> 2:12:19.040 formed countries that they were living in, So there was 2:12:19.080 --> 2:12:23.560 like this dispossession also from place where they were and 2:12:24.120 --> 2:12:28.360 matched with a general like rise of anti Semitism as well. 2:12:29.040 --> 2:12:31.160 So I think all of those things kind of crystallized 2:12:31.200 --> 2:12:37.080 into creating actual political movement around that kind of nascent 2:12:37.720 --> 2:12:43.480 like more like religious spiritual yearning. Yeah, and then that 2:12:43.560 --> 2:12:47.600 formed into like many different types of Zionism, like more 2:12:47.600 --> 2:12:55.000 militaristic Zionism, more socialist scions, religious Scionism, et cetera. And 2:12:55.040 --> 2:12:59.760 that's all kind of yeah, make its way to become Israel. 2:13:00.240 --> 2:13:04.160 Yeah, how would you differentiate all of those, like the 2:13:04.200 --> 2:13:07.760 cultural versus religious versus political, Like how would you personally 2:13:07.800 --> 2:13:09.760 differentiate them? I know you're not an expert, but just 2:13:09.800 --> 2:13:10.560 like speaking. 2:13:10.280 --> 2:13:14.800 Of experience, Yeah, I have to think on that. It's complicated, 2:13:14.800 --> 2:13:16.760 I would say, because it feels like. 2:13:16.760 --> 2:13:20.200 To me from just reading about the history of Zionism, 2:13:21.160 --> 2:13:24.800 it did kind of start in a religious like origin, 2:13:25.000 --> 2:13:27.560 but it became more political. Am I reading that right? 2:13:27.960 --> 2:13:29.640 Or yeah? 2:13:29.720 --> 2:13:33.400 Yeah? I think like, yeah, that's what can be pretty confusing. 2:13:33.440 --> 2:13:37.800 I think about understanding like Zionism in general is just 2:13:37.840 --> 2:13:39.560 like where does this even come from? Like how do 2:13:39.720 --> 2:13:44.640 these like especially Zionism like originating more from like Ashkenazi 2:13:44.680 --> 2:13:48.640 like European Jews. How did this even come to be 2:13:48.920 --> 2:13:55.200 and seen as something that like the longing and the 2:13:55.320 --> 2:13:59.280 connection to the land being part of Jewish culture and religion, 2:14:00.080 --> 2:14:02.120 but that only turning into a desire for a nation 2:14:02.280 --> 2:14:07.200 state like at that certain moment. So the like different 2:14:07.200 --> 2:14:12.640 categories of like religious Zionism versus political versus militaristic versus 2:14:12.640 --> 2:14:16.960 socialists were kind of like the ways that Zionism was. 2:14:17.960 --> 2:14:21.560 There was like different movements of Zionism in Europe and 2:14:21.600 --> 2:14:24.360 Eastern Europe at the time of its origins. So it's 2:14:24.400 --> 2:14:27.960 kind of like referring to more of its historical relationship 2:14:28.920 --> 2:14:33.320 and then that still influences the politics today in contemporary 2:14:34.520 --> 2:14:36.280 like I'll just say a state of Israel and also 2:14:36.280 --> 2:14:39.480 many like Israel Palestine, but speaking about Zionism that feels 2:14:39.480 --> 2:14:44.680 more relevant. So you still have like socialist scientists who 2:14:44.760 --> 2:14:47.960 are more on the left than you have like more 2:14:48.080 --> 2:14:51.200 like right wing religious scientists, you probably have more historical 2:14:51.240 --> 2:14:57.520 origins and like more militaristic Scionism and religious scientists who 2:14:57.520 --> 2:15:00.520 maybe are like we are here for the religious reasons 2:15:00.520 --> 2:15:04.520 of being Jews on this land versus like a socialist scientist, 2:15:04.760 --> 2:15:08.560 Like their framework was more like we want to create 2:15:08.560 --> 2:15:13.680 this more socialist utopia sort of vision versus a more 2:15:13.720 --> 2:15:17.080 political moltastic scietists. Their original vision was like want to 2:15:17.120 --> 2:15:20.440 dominate this land and right. Yeah, political power. 2:15:20.920 --> 2:15:24.040 Yeah, it feels like in recent times it's kind of 2:15:24.120 --> 2:15:27.360 leaned more in that direction only because of the I 2:15:27.440 --> 2:15:29.800 don't know the state of the world. But when you 2:15:30.400 --> 2:15:33.440 when you look up Zionism, it's defined I'm just going 2:15:33.480 --> 2:15:35.920 to read what I found and please entrupt me if 2:15:35.920 --> 2:15:40.080 you're like, actually no. When you look at Zionism was 2:15:40.120 --> 2:15:44.840 defined as an organized nationalist movement, generally considered to have 2:15:44.880 --> 2:15:49.680 been founded by Theodor Herzel in eighteen ninety seven. However, 2:15:49.920 --> 2:15:53.640 the history of Zionism began earlier and is intertwined with 2:15:53.760 --> 2:15:57.880 the Jewish history and Judaism as a whole. The organizations 2:15:57.960 --> 2:16:02.280 of I'm going to probably mispronounce this Hoveve Zion the 2:16:02.360 --> 2:16:09.920 lovers of Zion. How you save? Yeah, yeah. This organization 2:16:10.960 --> 2:16:14.360 was held as like the forerunner of the modern Zionist ideals, 2:16:14.440 --> 2:16:18.160 and they were responsible for twenty Jewish towns in Palestine 2:16:18.160 --> 2:16:23.240 between eighteen seventy and eighteen ninety seven. This is from 2:16:23.280 --> 2:16:29.160 just online history. And at the core of the Zionist 2:16:29.200 --> 2:16:33.360 ideology was this traditional aspiration for a Jewish national home 2:16:33.840 --> 2:16:38.120 through the re establishment of Jewish sovereignty in Palestine, and 2:16:38.160 --> 2:16:42.640 this was to be facilitated by the Jewish diaspora. Herzel 2:16:42.720 --> 2:16:47.760 apparently sought an independent Jewish state, usually defined as a 2:16:47.920 --> 2:16:53.080 secular state with a Jewish majority population, and he wrote 2:16:53.200 --> 2:16:57.680 a eighteen ninety six pamphlet to describe exactly what he wanted. 2:16:58.800 --> 2:17:02.000 And though he did not live to witness it, Israel 2:17:02.200 --> 2:17:07.560 was established and so what he wanted did come to fruition, 2:17:07.920 --> 2:17:10.760 even though in my opinion it was not done in. 2:17:10.680 --> 2:17:11.560 A just way. 2:17:13.080 --> 2:17:19.600 But that's history for you. But yeah, I think the 2:17:19.720 --> 2:17:24.600 actual core of it is really understandable and true. You know, like, 2:17:24.640 --> 2:17:28.840 of course, every marginalized community wants a safe haven and 2:17:28.879 --> 2:17:31.760 a place where they can all go to. I think 2:17:32.040 --> 2:17:37.879 my biggest what I really dislike about where it is now, 2:17:37.920 --> 2:17:41.760 where Zion is now, is just how much it erases 2:17:41.800 --> 2:17:45.000 everyone else that's already there. It's almost as if Palestine 2:17:45.120 --> 2:17:49.840 was like an empty field, you know. And I think 2:17:50.400 --> 2:17:52.360 a lot of zion Is today kind of erased that 2:17:52.480 --> 2:17:55.959 history and a race that like they massacred hundreds of 2:17:56.000 --> 2:18:00.000 people and they displaced over seven hundred and fifty thousand people. 2:18:00.760 --> 2:18:03.000 It's called the neckbut it's called a catastrophe. That's what 2:18:03.040 --> 2:18:07.000 Palestinians refer to it as and I feel like Zionists 2:18:07.560 --> 2:18:12.600 tend to not. I mean, from what I understand, it's 2:18:12.600 --> 2:18:16.720 as if that isn't like real history. And from what 2:18:16.800 --> 2:18:18.920 I've read or like from what I've heard from people 2:18:18.959 --> 2:18:22.080 that have grown up in Israel, the history that they 2:18:22.160 --> 2:18:26.080 learn is also a little bit selective in what they learn. 2:18:26.800 --> 2:18:33.120 But but yeah, that's I've just been I've been reading 2:18:33.120 --> 2:18:36.480 a lot about Zionism for a long time. Yeah, but 2:18:36.560 --> 2:18:39.560 it's nice to have someone actually, like with experience in 2:18:39.600 --> 2:18:41.280 it because I can only learn so much from the 2:18:41.280 --> 2:18:43.200 Internet and from like secondhand stuff. 2:18:44.600 --> 2:18:47.480 I feel like that, like like when we look at 2:18:47.520 --> 2:18:50.400 like the early Zionists and it's like, oh, yeah, like 2:18:50.959 --> 2:18:55.160 these desires to like have sovereignty and have autonomy and 2:18:55.200 --> 2:18:59.320 agency for your people who are being marginalized in your 2:18:59.360 --> 2:19:03.800 country like or in these lands that they live reasonable, 2:19:03.879 --> 2:19:08.760 Like that totally makes sense and that and then it 2:19:08.800 --> 2:19:11.360 has to, like you said, be also seeing through the 2:19:11.440 --> 2:19:14.200 lens of like the actual history that occurred, which is 2:19:14.600 --> 2:19:17.920 materially trying to like build a nation state as like 2:19:18.000 --> 2:19:23.760 part of your people's liberation is going to involve lots 2:19:23.760 --> 2:19:27.640 of oppression and violence. And that's kind of where I 2:19:27.720 --> 2:19:32.720 ended up, like, yeah, like understanding the history of Zionism, 2:19:33.000 --> 2:19:37.960 like being able to have empathy for that original message, 2:19:38.080 --> 2:19:41.000 and then just really being like that's what led me 2:19:41.000 --> 2:19:46.400 into like anarchism ultimately, was saying that this desire for 2:19:46.600 --> 2:19:51.800 a nation state to be like a liberatory project is 2:19:51.879 --> 2:19:54.680 kind of always going to be flawed in a way. 2:19:56.000 --> 2:19:59.160 So actually, like and I kind of said, like, you know, 2:20:00.400 --> 2:20:05.200 Jewish like agencies, sovereignty and like liberation, like we actually 2:20:05.280 --> 2:20:08.120 deserve better than that, you know, being deserve to not 2:20:08.160 --> 2:20:13.520 actually be like held within the confines of like what 2:20:13.680 --> 2:20:17.240 is possible in a nation state, as I think like 2:20:17.280 --> 2:20:18.280 all people deserve. 2:20:18.760 --> 2:20:19.560 Yeah, totally. 2:20:20.160 --> 2:20:22.400 So that's kind of how I've come to this point now. 2:20:22.720 --> 2:20:24.680 No, and I really want to talk to you more 2:20:24.720 --> 2:20:27.480 about how you've landed where you are with your beliefs, 2:20:28.040 --> 2:20:30.920 but yeah, I think what also gets forgotten is that 2:20:31.040 --> 2:20:35.080 pre nineteen forty eight, there were Jewish people in Palestine, 2:20:35.280 --> 2:20:39.640 you know, and Christian people everyone got along. I'm from Syria, 2:20:39.720 --> 2:20:42.959 but even in Syria, everyone, like in all in most 2:20:42.959 --> 2:20:45.119 Middle Eastern countries, there was a mix of all these 2:20:45.120 --> 2:20:48.400 religions and they all got along and I think that's 2:20:48.400 --> 2:20:51.960 what really angers me when it comes to like basically 2:20:52.040 --> 2:20:55.320 like the news saying it's like this ancient religious conflict, 2:20:55.400 --> 2:20:58.600 because that's just simply not true. And I think that's 2:20:58.640 --> 2:21:02.640 a huge defense that a lot of like militant Zionists have, 2:21:02.840 --> 2:21:08.440 where it's like this eternal cultural religious war and it's 2:21:08.520 --> 2:21:13.240 simply just false. I think that's something that always bothers me. 2:21:15.120 --> 2:21:16.680 I just want to give a little bit more history 2:21:16.760 --> 2:21:18.640 just to bring us to like current day. Just I 2:21:18.640 --> 2:21:20.760 think it's this stuff is a little bit interesting. So 2:21:21.440 --> 2:21:25.720 in nineteen seventy five the UN General Assembly, they passed 2:21:25.720 --> 2:21:29.879 Resolution three three seventy nine, which designated Zionism as a 2:21:29.920 --> 2:21:34.360 form of racism and racial discrimination. However, this resolution was 2:21:34.400 --> 2:21:38.200 repealed in nineteen ninety one by replacing Resolution three three 2:21:38.320 --> 2:21:42.280 seventy nine with Resolution four to six Slash eighty six, 2:21:43.000 --> 2:21:46.400 and this new resolution it was adopted on December sixteenth 2:21:46.400 --> 2:21:49.840 and nineteen ninety one. It revoked the determination in the 2:21:49.879 --> 2:21:53.879 previous resolution three three seven nine determining Zionism as racist, 2:21:54.760 --> 2:21:58.240 and Israel had made the certification of this resolution a 2:21:58.320 --> 2:22:02.640 condition of its participation in the Madrid Peace Conference, which 2:22:02.680 --> 2:22:04.520 was a conference that was held at the end of 2:22:04.600 --> 2:22:08.600 nineteen ninety one, and it was also raised under pressure 2:22:08.760 --> 2:22:15.440 of the administration of President Bush. Papa, I just find 2:22:15.440 --> 2:22:17.600 that funny, No, hw Bush, I'm sorry, this is not 2:22:17.640 --> 2:22:20.680 funny stuff. I just this is how I cope. But 2:22:21.800 --> 2:22:26.080 basically the revocation was simply this one sentence, the General 2:22:26.160 --> 2:22:29.920 Assembly decides to revoke the determination contained in its resolution 2:22:30.080 --> 2:22:34.240 three three seventy nine of tenth of December nineteen seventy five. 2:22:34.480 --> 2:22:39.200 And this motion was supported by one hundred and eleven nations, 2:22:39.240 --> 2:22:42.520 including the ninety nations who had sponsored it in the 2:22:42.560 --> 2:22:45.760 first place, and it was opposed by twenty five nations 2:22:45.800 --> 2:22:49.600 and abstained by thirteen nations. And I just thought that 2:22:49.800 --> 2:22:53.480 was incredibly fascinating. It also just like illustrates the power 2:22:53.560 --> 2:22:58.080 that Israel has always kind of like held like as 2:22:58.120 --> 2:23:01.400 far as like a political state in like world affairs. 2:23:02.040 --> 2:23:04.440 And if you've listened to my previous episodes, then you 2:23:04.520 --> 2:23:08.960 know that at the current saying time, and like for 2:23:09.040 --> 2:23:11.400 decades leading up to this, the government in Israel is 2:23:11.440 --> 2:23:16.280 extremely far right and Zionist to the point where it's 2:23:16.320 --> 2:23:19.959 extremely racist, and they've built in apartheid state based around 2:23:20.000 --> 2:23:25.640 their Zionism basically, Dianis values serve as the ideological foundation 2:23:25.760 --> 2:23:30.840 of Israel. I think that's kind of a big part 2:23:30.879 --> 2:23:33.000 of why Israel was created in the first place, was 2:23:33.040 --> 2:23:37.199 this hope for a place where everyone was safe. Obviously 2:23:37.240 --> 2:23:39.879 that kind of became twisted and they went about it 2:23:39.879 --> 2:23:43.800 in a terrible way. But I do understand what you 2:23:43.840 --> 2:23:47.600 mean also by having empathy for the original feeling of it, 2:23:47.680 --> 2:23:51.320 because I feel the same. I think every marginalized community 2:23:51.360 --> 2:23:54.840 wants what the original idea of Zionism had. I think 2:23:54.920 --> 2:23:58.400 Zionis today is defined so differently, and I think that's 2:23:58.480 --> 2:24:03.320 really unfortunate because it didn't have to become a racist ideology, 2:24:03.520 --> 2:24:06.160 but it did. I've been rambling too much, and we're 2:24:06.160 --> 2:24:08.199 going to take our first break. When we come back. 2:24:08.360 --> 2:24:11.240 I want to talk to you about you, so br 2:24:11.320 --> 2:24:16.680 B and we're back, Ammie take it away what he 2:24:16.720 --> 2:24:21.520 had a response for the thing I said about how 2:24:21.840 --> 2:24:25.160 Zionist values they serve as the ideological foundation of Israel. 2:24:26.360 --> 2:24:29.400 Yeah, And I think one of the things I try 2:24:29.440 --> 2:24:31.360 to like make a point of kind of as like 2:24:31.400 --> 2:24:33.640 a Jewish anarchist specifically, like what I was saying prior 2:24:33.800 --> 2:24:38.080 is that that's again like kind of just the inevitable, well, 2:24:38.120 --> 2:24:42.840 in my mind, like the inevitable outcome of like a 2:24:42.959 --> 2:24:45.279 state is that there is going to be some amount 2:24:45.400 --> 2:24:51.320 of like division of population, like oppression of a certain 2:24:51.320 --> 2:24:54.760 class of people or certain group of people, a consolidation 2:24:54.840 --> 2:24:59.840 of power in the hands of a few. So again 2:25:00.120 --> 2:25:04.840 me like that's where this like the original idea of 2:25:04.879 --> 2:25:07.640 like let's have a place where Jews can have like 2:25:07.680 --> 2:25:13.480 safety and sovereignty and cultural like flourishing. Like attaching that 2:25:13.560 --> 2:25:16.320 to a state was like kind of always bound to fail, 2:25:17.040 --> 2:25:19.960 but not inherent like not exactly, like not innatially, because 2:25:19.959 --> 2:25:23.680 that desire is like a wrong desire. Yeah, and then 2:25:23.720 --> 2:25:27.640 when we pile in kind of like like other people's 2:25:27.720 --> 2:25:30.080 interests in terms of like the West having like an 2:25:30.160 --> 2:25:35.039 interest in having like Israel being like a friendly like 2:25:35.720 --> 2:25:37.840 I consider like a proxy state for the West like 2:25:37.840 --> 2:25:42.200 in the Middle East where they can you know, like 2:25:42.240 --> 2:25:44.840 we've seen like send their police officers to be trained 2:25:45.480 --> 2:25:48.320 in these ways. But also the West is benefiting from 2:25:48.320 --> 2:25:51.440 that exchange. They have a little hold in the Middle 2:25:51.480 --> 2:25:55.160 East like they always wanted to exactly, So their interest 2:25:55.400 --> 2:26:00.200 is to like maintain Israel like as something that they 2:26:00.200 --> 2:26:03.400 can have influence in and have this kind of control 2:26:03.440 --> 2:26:08.280 over and like to make it creepier like the Christian 2:26:10.080 --> 2:26:13.280 like Evangelical Zionism, like Christian Zionism is also like a 2:26:13.400 --> 2:26:18.320 huge influence in the US. There was just a really 2:26:18.320 --> 2:26:20.400 interesting documentary I can't remember the name now that that 2:26:20.520 --> 2:26:22.760 was released like a year or two ago about this, 2:26:23.520 --> 2:26:26.640 and Christian Zionists actually make up like a larger lobbying 2:26:26.879 --> 2:26:31.800 body than like Jewish Zionists in the US just because backwards, 2:26:32.680 --> 2:26:37.400 because they there's just so many more evangelicals and their 2:26:37.560 --> 2:26:41.000 interest in the state of Israel is that Jews will 2:26:41.040 --> 2:26:43.199 return there and then the rapture will happen. 2:26:43.879 --> 2:26:45.959 Wait can you Yeah, I actually want to talk to 2:26:45.959 --> 2:26:48.240 you about this because I one hundred percent think you 2:26:48.240 --> 2:26:50.160 know more about this than I do, because I do. 2:26:50.800 --> 2:26:54.000 I have heard that there are a lot of evangelical 2:26:54.560 --> 2:26:59.680 Christians that are huge supporters of Zionism. Yeah, one, can 2:26:59.720 --> 2:27:03.240 you to like if you know how that even like 2:27:03.360 --> 2:27:08.199 where that uh, I don't know, not solid I guess 2:27:08.200 --> 2:27:13.440 like solidarity with Zionism came about, and also what they 2:27:13.480 --> 2:27:16.119 believe like the whole rapture thing. Please, I would love 2:27:16.160 --> 2:27:16.880 to know more. 2:27:18.320 --> 2:27:20.760 Yet again, like I highly recommend people like watch whatever 2:27:20.760 --> 2:27:24.160 this documentary is. You just google like Christian Zionism, because 2:27:24.160 --> 2:27:25.959 I've mostly learned from that and from my own like 2:27:26.000 --> 2:27:27.000 internet wormholes. 2:27:28.200 --> 2:27:30.200 I've just looked it up, and I think it's Till 2:27:30.360 --> 2:27:33.959 Kingdom Come, a twenty twenty film, right, Yeah. Cool. 2:27:34.360 --> 2:27:37.160 And so what I understand is there is this like 2:27:38.040 --> 2:27:40.760 somewhere in the Christian world that like it has roots 2:27:40.800 --> 2:27:44.000 at least in the evangelical world. Right now, this idea 2:27:44.040 --> 2:27:46.920 in the Rapture, which I don't know that much about, 2:27:47.040 --> 2:27:50.800 but apparently the Rapture will involve Jews returning to the 2:27:50.879 --> 2:27:56.560 land of Israel and Jesus returning and killing all of 2:27:56.600 --> 2:27:57.200 the Jews. 2:27:57.560 --> 2:28:01.199 Oh my god. Yeah, for Zionism. 2:28:01.640 --> 2:28:07.840 That is why they support Zionism. So they walked up. Yeah, 2:28:07.879 --> 2:28:11.520 so they want Jews to go back to the land 2:28:11.600 --> 2:28:15.080 the state of Israel in order for them to ultimately 2:28:15.160 --> 2:28:16.920 like be killed and go to help all. 2:28:16.760 --> 2:28:18.920 In one place and be conveniently killed. 2:28:19.440 --> 2:28:21.960 Yeah, And so that and that is one of the 2:28:22.000 --> 2:28:25.879 major lobbying arms, like when we're talking about like the 2:28:26.000 --> 2:28:32.080 US like sending money to to Israel, and like I 2:28:32.120 --> 2:28:36.039 just saw recently, like like most of the Republicans are 2:28:36.080 --> 2:28:40.800 like supporting this, yeah, the aid going to Israel, And 2:28:40.840 --> 2:28:44.120 it's like why are they doing that when generally they 2:28:44.120 --> 2:28:47.920 don't really support Jews, you know, like Republicans are not 2:28:48.080 --> 2:28:49.840 like BFFs with Jews. 2:28:49.800 --> 2:28:52.440 Like they don't really I mean inherently that way of 2:28:52.480 --> 2:28:57.280 seeing Zionism is one racist. Like it's like people are 2:28:57.440 --> 2:28:59.320 or not not even just that anti semitic, you know, 2:28:59.560 --> 2:29:03.120 anti that's really the defense all the time when you 2:29:03.200 --> 2:29:06.640 have like a Palestinian politician talk about Israel or anything, 2:29:06.959 --> 2:29:09.000 not even Zion as a managements in Israel, and then 2:29:09.040 --> 2:29:12.280 they get labeled at tes semitic, but that is one 2:29:12.640 --> 2:29:14.920 percent anti Semitics, it's actually anti Semitic. 2:29:16.800 --> 2:29:19.280 Well, and it's like it doesn't get noticed because like 2:29:19.320 --> 2:29:23.320 I feel like so much that like white Christians do 2:29:23.600 --> 2:29:26.760 in this country just like gets very overlooked as like 2:29:27.320 --> 2:29:32.680 something that actually has something that's actually worth like noticing 2:29:32.720 --> 2:29:37.520 and something that's actually worth like critiquing. So I am 2:29:37.520 --> 2:29:39.840 trying to understand like how did we get to this place, 2:29:39.920 --> 2:29:42.400 Like how did we get to this point where like, yeah, 2:29:42.600 --> 2:29:46.600 Israel is being supported and doing what it is doing 2:29:46.680 --> 2:29:50.680 right now to Palestinians. It has moved, in my opinion, 2:29:50.800 --> 2:29:53.920 so far away from like an actual like vision of 2:29:54.240 --> 2:29:57.120 like Jewish liberation. And then you look at like who's 2:29:57.120 --> 2:30:00.000 actually really supporting this project right now, and it's people 2:30:00.040 --> 2:30:04.640 who actually just want us to die. It becomes very convoluted, 2:30:04.720 --> 2:30:09.160 and it again motivates my anti Zionism in a lot 2:30:09.160 --> 2:30:10.000 of ways too. 2:30:10.560 --> 2:30:13.640 Yeah, can you tell me as little and as many 2:30:13.680 --> 2:30:15.640 details as you want, But how did you come to 2:30:16.120 --> 2:30:18.640 identify as an anti Zionist? How did you become how 2:30:18.680 --> 2:30:21.119 did you embrace that definition for yourself? 2:30:21.720 --> 2:30:25.480 I guess there's a lot of like aspects to that answer. 2:30:26.320 --> 2:30:29.640 One thing is like I do really care about like 2:30:30.320 --> 2:30:34.119 Jewish people being safe and Jewish people having our culture, 2:30:34.680 --> 2:30:37.200 like Jewish will be able to express our culture and 2:30:37.240 --> 2:30:40.160 be able to express who we are. And I think, yeah, 2:30:40.160 --> 2:30:44.240 like being two or three generations from like the Holocaust 2:30:44.480 --> 2:30:48.400 and just like feeling like the intensity of that loss 2:30:48.480 --> 2:30:53.119 of life and land and place has just like given 2:30:53.160 --> 2:30:57.440 me that feeling of like this is really important. And 2:30:57.480 --> 2:30:59.080 then also like living out a time right now in 2:30:59.120 --> 2:31:02.400 the US where like anti Semitism is violent and I've 2:31:02.440 --> 2:31:05.320 experienced that violence and it is like a threat to 2:31:05.440 --> 2:31:08.200 like my sense of safety and my ability to express 2:31:08.240 --> 2:31:11.240 my culture. I've just been like very obsessed with, like 2:31:11.480 --> 2:31:15.080 what does actually achieving those goals look like? Yeah, And 2:31:15.800 --> 2:31:17.280 when I look at the state of Israel and I 2:31:17.320 --> 2:31:21.000 see all eighteen year olds are conscripted into the army, 2:31:21.080 --> 2:31:24.600 which is like literally like my great grandfather left Russia 2:31:24.640 --> 2:31:27.039 because he didn't want to be conscripted into the Russian army. 2:31:27.200 --> 2:31:30.040 And a lot of Jews Aushraazi Jews in the US 2:31:30.080 --> 2:31:34.560 like have that story Like that's not liberation when I 2:31:34.600 --> 2:31:37.120 see that, like a lot of Jews in Israel have 2:31:37.160 --> 2:31:40.640 the choice of either being like very secular or being 2:31:40.720 --> 2:31:46.000 extremely religious. When even like a lot of more diverse 2:31:47.160 --> 2:31:50.520 like Jewish cultures have been assimilated into like this one 2:31:50.560 --> 2:31:54.879 monolithic culture. Languages have been lost, like practices have been lost, 2:31:55.480 --> 2:31:58.879 Like that's not like our culture being able to flourish. 2:31:59.440 --> 2:32:03.320 And also the violence done to Palestinians, like in the 2:32:03.360 --> 2:32:05.119 name of the state and the name of this liberation, 2:32:06.120 --> 2:32:10.680 like nothing, nothing is worth that violence. Ever, so all 2:32:10.680 --> 2:32:14.160 of those things have kind of coalesced into my Jewish 2:32:14.160 --> 2:32:17.600 anarchism of also analyzing that through the state apparatus itself 2:32:17.680 --> 2:32:21.360 and being like, oh, yeah, states will do this. We 2:32:21.440 --> 2:32:23.480 need to think more creatively, We need to think in 2:32:23.520 --> 2:32:27.600 a way that builds actual solidarity between Jewish community and 2:32:28.320 --> 2:32:32.200 Palestinian community and other marginalized people. And all of that 2:32:32.240 --> 2:32:38.040 has kind of just coalesced into Jewish anti Zionism, like 2:32:38.120 --> 2:32:40.640 just making sense on all of those levels. 2:32:41.000 --> 2:32:44.280 Yeah, no, I thank you for saying all of that. 2:32:45.000 --> 2:32:49.040 It's true. I think nothing is worth all that violence. 2:32:49.080 --> 2:32:53.119 And also I think unfortunately, like when you have any 2:32:53.240 --> 2:32:55.760 kind of desire, no matter how pure it is, because 2:32:55.760 --> 2:32:58.640 I think the basis of Zionism has a pure desire 2:32:59.120 --> 2:33:03.280 of safety and sovereignty. But when you have a desire 2:33:04.120 --> 2:33:08.200 and you add politics to it, or you add I 2:33:08.200 --> 2:33:12.879 don't know, any kind of like country war anything. When 2:33:12.920 --> 2:33:17.520 you add like modern day limitations and structures, that's when 2:33:17.560 --> 2:33:21.560 it becomes something else. It devolves into something that it 2:33:21.600 --> 2:33:24.800 really shouldn't be. Like, I think what disturbs me the 2:33:24.840 --> 2:33:28.680 most is how many young people are like rallying in 2:33:28.720 --> 2:33:31.240 the streets, like a lot of like far right groups 2:33:31.280 --> 2:33:33.520 in Israel will be like death to all Arabs or 2:33:33.560 --> 2:33:36.440 like they'll say the most heinous things as well as 2:33:36.440 --> 2:33:40.640 do the most heinous things. But I think it's unfortunate 2:33:40.680 --> 2:33:44.240 because I think even they kind of lost what zion 2:33:44.280 --> 2:33:46.360 is supposed to be about. It's not supposed to be 2:33:46.400 --> 2:33:50.680 about being only there just you and killing everybody else, 2:33:51.200 --> 2:33:55.000 or or seeing someone else as second as second citizens 2:33:55.080 --> 2:33:58.960 or anything. But no, I yeah, thank you for saying 2:33:58.959 --> 2:34:00.879 all of that. The arm thing is a really good 2:34:00.879 --> 2:34:03.400 thing to bring up as well, just because Palestine has 2:34:03.440 --> 2:34:07.520 no army, so it's a little bit silly to demand 2:34:07.640 --> 2:34:11.000 everyone and even join the army for this fake, imaginary 2:34:11.040 --> 2:34:16.160 bad guy. Not that there is not. There's definitely terrorist 2:34:16.440 --> 2:34:20.520 like activity on both sides, I would say, but the 2:34:20.600 --> 2:34:23.520 vast majority is like this imaginary big bad wolf that 2:34:23.560 --> 2:34:26.119 does not exist and is like powered by US and 2:34:26.240 --> 2:34:28.200 Western media totally. 2:34:28.520 --> 2:34:32.080 And that's where I start to think, like I don't 2:34:32.080 --> 2:34:34.160 know if this is like conspiracy or if this is real, 2:34:34.240 --> 2:34:37.640 but I start to think, like who is this actually serving, 2:34:38.000 --> 2:34:41.760 you know, Like who is it serving to, like, literally, yeah, 2:34:41.879 --> 2:34:47.400 put young people into a war every in every generation 2:34:47.680 --> 2:34:52.160 that comes through this country, And like, is it mostly 2:34:52.280 --> 2:34:55.680 serving like US and other like Western interests to be 2:34:55.720 --> 2:34:58.760 able to, yeah, have that land be their proxy state. 2:35:00.520 --> 2:35:02.680 And I don't have enough research to like back that 2:35:02.720 --> 2:35:04.320 claim up in a way that I would like to 2:35:05.120 --> 2:35:08.800 That's that's like my next like research wormhole is to 2:35:08.840 --> 2:35:13.080 try and yeah, just understand like that dynamic because I 2:35:13.120 --> 2:35:16.120 think something else that I have a lot of questions 2:35:16.160 --> 2:35:17.760 about you and like the formation of the state of 2:35:17.800 --> 2:35:23.560 Israel is like yeah, understanding that like England did or 2:35:23.640 --> 2:35:26.840 like I don't great Britain. In England, I think England 2:35:27.480 --> 2:35:30.000 they were the ones who like practitioned that land and 2:35:30.000 --> 2:35:31.800 like they were the ones who ultimately signed it over. 2:35:32.240 --> 2:35:38.840 Yeah, the British are rest possible for of the world. No, no, 2:35:38.959 --> 2:35:39.960 thank you no. 2:35:40.840 --> 2:35:43.760 And sometimes like forgetting that part of the story kind 2:35:43.800 --> 2:35:47.960 of almost like contributes to this kind of like anti 2:35:47.959 --> 2:35:50.320 Semitic rhetoric of like, oh the Jews are this like 2:35:50.360 --> 2:35:53.000 all powerful people who were just able to conquer this 2:35:53.120 --> 2:35:53.920 land on their own. 2:35:54.320 --> 2:35:56.000 It's like a conspiracy theory fuel. 2:35:56.840 --> 2:36:00.440 Yeah, when it's like no, like actually, like the Jews 2:36:00.440 --> 2:36:03.120 at that time did not have like global power in 2:36:03.160 --> 2:36:08.080 that way like England. Britain was like here you go, 2:36:08.280 --> 2:36:10.080 here's this land in the same way that they did 2:36:10.600 --> 2:36:14.480 like so much of the other colonized places in that 2:36:14.560 --> 2:36:15.920 world in the world. 2:36:17.280 --> 2:36:21.879 Yeah, I mean the British are responsible for every bad thing, and. 2:36:24.400 --> 2:36:27.800 Like for me, like that bigger lens feels harder to 2:36:27.840 --> 2:36:31.360 talk about sometimes because I also like am also holding 2:36:31.640 --> 2:36:35.480 that like Jewish American support for the State of Israel 2:36:35.560 --> 2:36:40.360 like Fuels. Also the atrocity is happening against Palestidian's Jewish 2:36:40.560 --> 2:36:44.880 support for the IDEF in Israel, et cetera. Like obviously 2:36:44.879 --> 2:36:48.040 are responsible, and like I worry that if we don't 2:36:48.480 --> 2:36:51.680 look at these broader influences, that we're not actually going 2:36:51.720 --> 2:36:56.720 to understand like how to systemically stop this. 2:36:57.000 --> 2:37:00.520 You know, Yeah, you have to understand how you got 2:37:00.520 --> 2:37:04.400 somewhere to like determine how to get out of where 2:37:04.400 --> 2:37:10.200 you are, right, yeah, not to be too morbid or 2:37:10.280 --> 2:37:12.720 like to make this connection, but like Britain doing that, 2:37:13.200 --> 2:37:17.600 it's almost what the evangelical Christians want to do, right, like, oh, 2:37:18.400 --> 2:37:21.080 all you guys just stay here, Let's just shove them 2:37:21.080 --> 2:37:24.360 on this place that we don't really care about, and 2:37:24.400 --> 2:37:28.600 here you go, Like it doesn't even feel like genuine support, 2:37:28.840 --> 2:37:30.720 you know what I mean? Like I think in an 2:37:30.800 --> 2:37:37.279 alternate universe, Jewish people were welcomed into nations and Britain 2:37:37.400 --> 2:37:40.119 was like opening their doors to immigrants, I think that 2:37:40.480 --> 2:37:45.520 is a much more kind notion in my opinion, but 2:37:45.520 --> 2:37:49.640 what I do understand the desire to do otherwise. But 2:37:49.720 --> 2:37:52.760 it is interesting to connect those two now that we've 2:37:52.760 --> 2:37:54.760 talked about both of them, and how similar that is. 2:37:55.360 --> 2:38:00.600 And on that too, like the most like disturbing like 2:38:01.520 --> 2:38:04.720 thing that I've figured out in a while in relation 2:38:04.800 --> 2:38:09.959 to like this origin history of Zionism. So like in 2:38:10.000 --> 2:38:14.440 the beginning of like the Nazi power in Germany, in 2:38:14.520 --> 2:38:17.640 Germany specifically, before they wanted to like kill the Jews, 2:38:18.440 --> 2:38:20.440 they just wanted the Jews to leave, so they were 2:38:20.480 --> 2:38:23.360 like go, just go. And I saw this. I was 2:38:23.360 --> 2:38:27.120 in Berlin last summer, and I saw this picture of 2:38:27.360 --> 2:38:32.600 Nazis creating like a travel agencies in the right word, 2:38:32.640 --> 2:38:37.200 but like a travel depot that was specifically said like 2:38:37.400 --> 2:38:41.400 go to Palestine and was like directing Jews to go 2:38:41.440 --> 2:38:46.080 to Palestine. So like in that context, like the state 2:38:46.120 --> 2:38:53.199 of Israel then has like a totally different like frame 2:38:53.360 --> 2:38:56.880 of the George story almost yeah, of being the place 2:38:56.920 --> 2:39:00.640 where like the world could send their Jews when they 2:39:00.640 --> 2:39:04.959 didn't want them in their home countries. And and for me, 2:39:05.000 --> 2:39:07.320 that's also like a place that I've really fixated on 2:39:07.520 --> 2:39:10.520 is Like wait, wait, you can't just like say you're 2:39:10.560 --> 2:39:14.600 in solidarity with Choose because you've created this country and 2:39:14.640 --> 2:39:17.160 we all have to go there. Like you actually have 2:39:17.200 --> 2:39:19.280 to stop being anti Semitic, you know, you actually have 2:39:19.400 --> 2:39:21.800 to like you should work on that for yeah, like 2:39:21.920 --> 2:39:24.160 let us like live in your countries and be safe. 2:39:24.280 --> 2:39:26.960 And and it relates back to the evangelicals too, right, 2:39:27.040 --> 2:39:31.680 It's like they're all about like being Christian Zionists and 2:39:31.720 --> 2:39:36.560 like supporting Israel, but they're also like very anti Semitic 2:39:36.640 --> 2:39:38.959 in this country. So it's like it feels like a 2:39:38.959 --> 2:39:42.959 similar sort of dynamic of like yeah, yeah, we support 2:39:43.000 --> 2:39:45.160 you because we want you to go there, We want 2:39:45.200 --> 2:39:47.880 you to leave this country and go there, and we're 2:39:47.879 --> 2:39:49.600 not going to actually make it better for you in 2:39:49.600 --> 2:39:52.400 the place where you want to be, which is your 2:39:52.440 --> 2:39:56.480 family's home here, you know. So like that's another frame 2:39:56.480 --> 2:40:00.240 that I've been working in, which makes me just kind 2:40:00.240 --> 2:40:03.520 of have a bigger question of like global responsibility for 2:40:04.240 --> 2:40:08.520 what's happening in Israel Palestine right now, and how does 2:40:08.720 --> 2:40:15.280 this global resistance to actually addressing anti semitism like play 2:40:15.280 --> 2:40:19.000 into the continued violence against Palestinians. 2:40:19.480 --> 2:40:23.240 Yeah, and Just to be clear, being an anti Zionist 2:40:23.480 --> 2:40:28.240 is not anti Semitic. However, it is important to remember 2:40:28.360 --> 2:40:32.080 that just because someone is an Antizionist doesn't mean they're 2:40:32.120 --> 2:40:36.760 not anti Semitic. It's an important reminder for those engaging 2:40:36.760 --> 2:40:40.320 in anti Zionists organizing to also be doing work around 2:40:40.400 --> 2:40:44.600 anti Semitism both internally and the world at large, because 2:40:44.640 --> 2:40:48.600 both solidarity with Palestinians as well as ensuring that we're 2:40:48.600 --> 2:40:51.720 interrogating the anti Semitism in our lives and the world 2:40:52.280 --> 2:40:56.800 is vitally important in this moment. Now, I was trying 2:40:56.840 --> 2:40:59.000 to divide these two episodes up. You already know this, 2:40:59.040 --> 2:41:01.000 I've told you, but just for the audience, like I 2:41:01.040 --> 2:41:03.240 wanted to this first episode to be a little bit 2:41:03.240 --> 2:41:06.280 more about the history and about how we got here, 2:41:06.840 --> 2:41:11.080 and tomorrow's episode you'll hear about what I really want 2:41:11.080 --> 2:41:12.280 to talk to you about. It is like your work 2:41:12.320 --> 2:41:14.640 and ancestral healing and how that's a huge part of 2:41:14.680 --> 2:41:17.520 your work, and also the community that you've built in 2:41:17.520 --> 2:41:21.840 certain organizations. I think that is so critical when it 2:41:21.879 --> 2:41:27.400 comes to anti Zionism or having solidary of Palestinians, because 2:41:27.400 --> 2:41:31.080 that's what you need to even make change happen. Right. 2:41:31.959 --> 2:41:35.040 So on that note, I'm going to wrap it up 2:41:35.080 --> 2:41:38.360 here for now, Amy, can you plug? Like if people 2:41:38.360 --> 2:41:39.960 want to know more about you and your work, where 2:41:40.000 --> 2:41:40.720 they can find you. 2:41:41.560 --> 2:41:46.080 Yeah. So again, I'm Ami Wintrab and I just came 2:41:46.120 --> 2:41:48.320 out with this book To the Ghosts who are Still Living. 2:41:49.240 --> 2:41:52.440 You can buy it through my publisher, Strangers in a 2:41:52.480 --> 2:41:56.640 Tangled Wilderness, or you can also look up my website 2:41:56.760 --> 2:42:01.760 amiwintrab dot com. And the book touches on like, not 2:42:01.920 --> 2:42:05.440 Zionism specifically, but kind of the themes of like place 2:42:05.560 --> 2:42:09.680 and land and where do you choose belong in the world. 2:42:10.600 --> 2:42:14.400 Yeah, and their website also has a list of their 2:42:14.440 --> 2:42:17.600 other works, which I highly recommend you seek out. I 2:42:17.640 --> 2:42:22.600 think voices like amis like yours are really important when 2:42:22.600 --> 2:42:25.720 it comes to talking about I don't know, changing the 2:42:25.720 --> 2:42:28.720 world for the better in general, not even about anti Zionism, 2:42:28.760 --> 2:42:32.120 but like even just trying to assess something in a 2:42:32.120 --> 2:42:35.120 more critical way, in a more personal way, even thinking 2:42:35.120 --> 2:42:39.359 about it being ancestral healing, I think is so critical. 2:42:39.400 --> 2:42:40.360 So thank you so. 2:42:40.400 --> 2:42:42.800 Much for coming on, thank you for having me. 2:42:43.240 --> 2:42:46.680 Yeah, of course I'll talk to you tomorrow. For you guys, 2:42:47.280 --> 2:42:49.200 I'm going to keep talking to them right now for me, 2:42:49.760 --> 2:42:53.959 but but yeah, tune in tomorrow for a continuation of 2:42:53.959 --> 2:43:13.879 this lovely conversation. Bye, hello everybody, and welcome back to 2:43:13.920 --> 2:43:16.360 it could happen here. Yes, I still sound like this. 2:43:16.520 --> 2:43:19.920 It was the same day for me, but thank you 2:43:19.959 --> 2:43:23.080 for joining me again. Today is part two of a 2:43:23.120 --> 2:43:28.440 conversation I'm having with Amy Wine Traub about anti Sionism 2:43:28.480 --> 2:43:31.360 and why it's important. And today I want to talk 2:43:31.360 --> 2:43:35.720 about their work and how much of anti siism is 2:43:35.760 --> 2:43:39.800 actually based in ancestral healing. And yeah, I want to 2:43:39.840 --> 2:43:42.760 just tell you guys a bunch of good stuff because 2:43:42.920 --> 2:43:47.720 AMI's work I think is really important. So welcome back, Hi, 2:43:47.879 --> 2:43:48.640 thanks for having me. 2:43:49.000 --> 2:43:49.280 Hello. 2:43:49.360 --> 2:43:52.840 Of course, I think when we first started talking about 2:43:52.840 --> 2:43:57.200 wanting to record together, you mentioned that talking about ancestral 2:43:57.240 --> 2:44:00.760 healing was really integral and even your definition of Tai Zionism. 2:44:00.800 --> 2:44:02.400 Can you kind of explain why. 2:44:03.000 --> 2:44:06.720 Sure, Yeah, I feel like maybe it's also like the 2:44:06.760 --> 2:44:11.120 other way around, like my coming into like anti Zionism 2:44:11.879 --> 2:44:15.360 led me into a path of ancestral healing, because I 2:44:15.360 --> 2:44:18.720 think something that we talked about, like in the last episode, 2:44:19.520 --> 2:44:25.320 is that a lot of the motivation for at least 2:44:25.360 --> 2:44:28.680 like the early origins of Zionism was the desire for 2:44:28.720 --> 2:44:33.400 safety and the desire to like have cultural expression, like 2:44:33.480 --> 2:44:36.960 Jewish cultural expression, be possible. And so I started to think, 2:44:37.040 --> 2:44:41.280 like why were those the desires at the time, and 2:44:42.600 --> 2:44:49.959 sort of moving back into my family's history, which so 2:44:50.120 --> 2:44:53.360 much of it has been like silenced because of like 2:44:53.480 --> 2:44:56.959 the pain of the history and also in some ways 2:44:57.000 --> 2:44:59.840 because you've been told, you know, like you have a 2:45:00.400 --> 2:45:02.360 you have the home you live in now, and you 2:45:02.440 --> 2:45:05.360 have the state of Israel, and you don't have to 2:45:05.360 --> 2:45:08.440 think about where you came from, you know. And so 2:45:08.480 --> 2:45:10.000 a lot of my work has been kind of like 2:45:10.560 --> 2:45:12.920 opening up that conversation of the like, but where where 2:45:12.959 --> 2:45:15.640 did my great grandparents like actually come from? Like what 2:45:15.800 --> 2:45:16.440 was that place? 2:45:17.600 --> 2:45:18.400 Why do they leave? 2:45:19.120 --> 2:45:22.480 What is the longing that we have for safety, longman 2:45:22.560 --> 2:45:25.680 we have for home? And what does it look like 2:45:25.720 --> 2:45:30.280 to actually turn that longing back to yeah, for my family, 2:45:30.320 --> 2:45:33.440 like our homes in Eastern Europe. And That's kind of 2:45:33.600 --> 2:45:35.920 where I've been positioning a lot of my work these days. 2:45:37.760 --> 2:45:39.560 Yeah, I think you bring up a good point about 2:45:39.560 --> 2:45:45.840 how even having Israel there almost eRASS like the the 2:45:45.879 --> 2:45:48.400 history of a lot of Jewish people, right, because it 2:45:48.520 --> 2:45:51.360 kind of just like, yeah, it's almost as if like, oh, 2:45:51.360 --> 2:45:53.040 this is where we all come from and this is 2:45:53.040 --> 2:45:55.680 where we all end up, and it's just simply not true. 2:45:56.520 --> 2:46:00.000 Can you tell me, well, first, could you define and 2:46:00.080 --> 2:46:02.039 esctual healing to me? And like what that means to you? 2:46:03.320 --> 2:46:06.039 I feel like for me, and secial healing has been 2:46:06.040 --> 2:46:08.959 the process of opening up to the voices of my 2:46:09.080 --> 2:46:13.880 ancestors and allowing them to really speak to me and 2:46:14.000 --> 2:46:16.840 starting to see that like the pain and the grief 2:46:17.120 --> 2:46:21.360 and yeah, just the sorrow that I was carrying in 2:46:21.400 --> 2:46:25.080 my own body wasn't just my own Yeah, And that 2:46:25.240 --> 2:46:30.400 sort of growing awareness has become like the avenue to 2:46:30.480 --> 2:46:36.240 which I can do ancestral healing, which sometimes looks like 2:46:37.160 --> 2:46:40.640 learning a ton about like a specific Jewish practice that 2:46:40.920 --> 2:46:45.039 perhaps someone in my family at some point did and 2:46:45.080 --> 2:46:51.960 we've now forgotten. Or sometimes it looks like researching on Wikipedia, 2:46:52.040 --> 2:46:56.320 like the flowers that grew in my family's like Stuttle 2:46:56.720 --> 2:47:01.400 in Eastern Europe. And sometimes it looks like just crying 2:47:01.520 --> 2:47:04.600 and being sad about like the things that we've lost. 2:47:06.640 --> 2:47:10.760 And sometimes it looks like talking to my ancestors like 2:47:11.200 --> 2:47:18.440 in meditation or trance states and offering them back the 2:47:18.480 --> 2:47:20.240 healing that I'm doing in this generation. 2:47:21.000 --> 2:47:25.080 Yeah, I love that. I love especially the flowers I 2:47:25.080 --> 2:47:27.640 think really got me, just like those little details are 2:47:27.640 --> 2:47:34.160 so important and really defined a place. I mean, I 2:47:34.200 --> 2:47:37.640 think it's astual healing is so important for like most 2:47:37.680 --> 2:47:41.040 people in general, I think it's kind of taken maybe 2:47:41.120 --> 2:47:45.600 not taken too seriously by some normies, I don't know, 2:47:46.120 --> 2:47:49.760 but even for me, I mean, our histories are very different. 2:47:49.879 --> 2:47:52.720 But I think what you said about like recognizing that, 2:47:52.760 --> 2:47:54.600 like your pain is not just your own, Like you're 2:47:54.600 --> 2:47:58.720 carrying a lot of a bird in generation from generation 2:47:58.760 --> 2:48:02.560 to generation, and I think think acknowledging that and learning 2:48:02.600 --> 2:48:05.280 more about yourself anyone can do that. 2:48:05.480 --> 2:48:05.720 You don't. 2:48:05.800 --> 2:48:08.920 It doesn't have to be a certain I don't know. 2:48:08.959 --> 2:48:10.720 I think that's what I always kind of want to 2:48:11.480 --> 2:48:14.359 get across that, Like, even for me, I found ancestral 2:48:14.400 --> 2:48:16.840 healings to be really important. I define it in a 2:48:16.840 --> 2:48:21.000 different way, but it's still like I don't know a 2:48:21.040 --> 2:48:23.160 lot about my family's history, so that's been a little 2:48:23.160 --> 2:48:25.440 bit like a huge origin of that is because like 2:48:26.040 --> 2:48:29.240 there's a lot of confusion there, but I love that 2:48:29.360 --> 2:48:33.560 you are taking as like an internal journey and also 2:48:33.720 --> 2:48:36.600 like recognizing that there's a connection there. I think people 2:48:36.600 --> 2:48:38.959 don't look at it as much as I want them to. 2:48:39.040 --> 2:48:40.680 I guess I think it's a little bit too petty 2:48:40.680 --> 2:48:42.880 for people, and it really isn't. It's just about like 2:48:44.000 --> 2:48:47.120 evolving and knowing yourself better, like when you really when 2:48:47.120 --> 2:48:49.120 it really comes down to it, totally. 2:48:50.040 --> 2:48:53.039 Yeah, and for me too, Like so a lot of 2:48:53.520 --> 2:48:57.640 in my book, I talk a lot about like birch 2:48:57.680 --> 2:49:02.920 trees and the flower that grow and this places of 2:49:02.959 --> 2:49:05.200 my where my ancestors were in, like the lakes and 2:49:05.280 --> 2:49:08.440 the frogs. And a big reason for that too is 2:49:08.480 --> 2:49:12.959 because like my ancestors aren't there anymore, Like there are 2:49:13.040 --> 2:49:16.440 no more like Jewish people in those places necessarily to 2:49:16.520 --> 2:49:19.680 like tell the story. So when I think about, like 2:49:19.720 --> 2:49:25.360 how do I really learn about who my ancestors were 2:49:26.280 --> 2:49:28.280 or what their practices and their culture was, It's like, oh, 2:49:28.280 --> 2:49:30.240 at least I can see what they saw, you know. 2:49:30.320 --> 2:49:33.680 I can see the trees, I can see the frogs, 2:49:33.879 --> 2:49:37.440 and the land is holding that story for me if 2:49:37.440 --> 2:49:39.840 I can just open up and listen to it. So 2:49:39.879 --> 2:49:42.600 that's also been like part of it for me as 2:49:42.640 --> 2:49:46.880 well as like opening up like opportunity for like connection 2:49:47.160 --> 2:49:51.320 and joy even in the face of a lot of destruction. 2:49:53.360 --> 2:49:55.879 And again, also like you're saying, I really think this 2:49:56.000 --> 2:50:00.240 is something that like most people can do in is 2:50:00.240 --> 2:50:04.760 really enriching and would help us like all kind of 2:50:04.800 --> 2:50:08.440 metabolize like so much of what has happened in the 2:50:08.480 --> 2:50:12.240 twentieth century. Before the twentieth century, just like there's been 2:50:12.280 --> 2:50:14.959 so much like disruption and violence like that's happened for 2:50:15.040 --> 2:50:20.000 so many people. Yeah, and still happening obviously, and in America, 2:50:20.360 --> 2:50:22.200 in like the dominant American culture, I think there's like 2:50:22.240 --> 2:50:25.560 a really big emphasis on like forgetting and just kind 2:50:25.560 --> 2:50:31.199 of being in this like present moment and not realizing 2:50:31.240 --> 2:50:34.840 that we've come from somewhere. And I just really resist 2:50:34.879 --> 2:50:37.760 that that like urge to forget, and I for me 2:50:37.800 --> 2:50:39.800 that's also part of ancestral healing is like how do 2:50:39.879 --> 2:50:40.920 we learn to remember? 2:50:41.800 --> 2:50:44.760 Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that so much. 2:50:46.400 --> 2:50:46.520 Now. 2:50:46.560 --> 2:50:49.760 I think the thing that really made me realize that 2:50:50.360 --> 2:50:54.520 a cecil healing is extremely real and necessary was maybe 2:50:54.560 --> 2:50:56.520 like a on a how long ago was it, like 2:50:56.600 --> 2:51:01.440 ten years ago? I learned something about a family member 2:51:01.680 --> 2:51:04.720 that really put into context something that I was going 2:51:04.760 --> 2:51:07.680 through and that I have always felt, and I just 2:51:07.760 --> 2:51:11.280 part with who I am. And I'm being vague about 2:51:11.280 --> 2:51:13.760 it because it's just personal. But we could talk off 2:51:13.800 --> 2:51:17.160 Mike if you want, but for audience purposes, the point 2:51:17.200 --> 2:51:20.400 that I'm trying to get across is I learned something, 2:51:21.640 --> 2:51:24.560 and I learned more about myself, and I was almost 2:51:24.560 --> 2:51:27.600 more at peace with how much I was struggling with 2:51:27.640 --> 2:51:32.520 what it was, and I let myself be okay with 2:51:32.560 --> 2:51:34.520 how much I was struggling and the pain I was 2:51:34.560 --> 2:51:36.680 carrying because I recognized it wasn't just mine, it was 2:51:37.840 --> 2:51:41.240 it was hers. So yeah, I think if you ask 2:51:41.400 --> 2:51:44.560 me what the whole point of life is, it's self. 2:51:44.840 --> 2:51:47.760 Maybe not improvements the right word, but like self discovery 2:51:47.959 --> 2:51:53.120 and like I don't know nature and leaving a place 2:51:53.160 --> 2:51:55.360 better than you found it. I think it's as simple 2:51:55.400 --> 2:51:58.680 as that. I think it gets really convoluted with other things. 2:51:59.520 --> 2:52:03.520 But but yeah, as you said, I think anyone could 2:52:03.520 --> 2:52:10.040 benefit from learning more. Because I agree. I think what 2:52:10.160 --> 2:52:12.200 you said about forgetting really resonated with me. 2:52:12.320 --> 2:52:16.240 So yeah, I really like that. And like America has 2:52:16.280 --> 2:52:18.600 built on forgetting, like we're supposed to forget, like the 2:52:18.680 --> 2:52:22.640 genocide of indigenous peoples on this land. We're supposed to forget, 2:52:23.320 --> 2:52:25.680 like the horrors of slavery. You're supposed to just forget, 2:52:25.920 --> 2:52:30.880 like even what's happening right now in our country. So 2:52:30.959 --> 2:52:35.760 I think the act of remembering is like has so 2:52:35.840 --> 2:52:40.400 much power to shake like the current moment and to 2:52:40.440 --> 2:52:41.600 bring us to a new place. 2:52:42.080 --> 2:52:45.959 It's ironic that like the biggest slogan of one of 2:52:45.959 --> 2:52:52.279 America's most tragic events is don't forget when you about Yeah, totally, 2:52:52.800 --> 2:52:55.600 it's like, oh, this is the one thing you're gonna say, Yeah, 2:52:56.800 --> 2:52:59.240 let's forget about everything else though, totally. 2:52:59.520 --> 2:53:04.640 Yeah, And it's such like that's our memory. Like in Germany, 2:53:04.680 --> 2:53:06.560 they do have a lot about like memory culture. It's 2:53:06.600 --> 2:53:08.680 like a really like specific term that they have and 2:53:08.720 --> 2:53:10.440 like we don't even have that. Yeah, we don't even 2:53:10.520 --> 2:53:11.760 have that term here in the US. 2:53:11.959 --> 2:53:13.880 Wait, can you explain that to me a little bit, 2:53:13.920 --> 2:53:15.320 if you know, if you know about it. 2:53:15.400 --> 2:53:19.959 So Germany does have like a big like culture around 2:53:20.160 --> 2:53:24.920 like remembering the atrocities of the Holocaust, right, and they 2:53:24.959 --> 2:53:29.720 call it like memory culture. So that's like monuments or 2:53:31.160 --> 2:53:35.520 museums just like how is like World War two discussed? 2:53:35.520 --> 2:53:40.359 How is the Holocaust remembered? And yeah, like they remember 2:53:40.560 --> 2:53:44.160 a lot more than we do, which is ironic and 2:53:44.200 --> 2:53:47.320 also not in some ways. But yeah, we don't even 2:53:47.360 --> 2:53:50.600 have that concept here in the same way of like 2:53:50.840 --> 2:53:57.680 memory culture, like what is our cultural of remembering? And 2:53:57.680 --> 2:53:59.680 and I think obviously there has been some amount of 2:53:59.680 --> 2:54:03.320 that or and like yeah, like indigenous history and like 2:54:03.360 --> 2:54:07.760 Black history in relation to like monuments and Thanksgiving and 2:54:07.800 --> 2:54:12.520 like all of those things, but we don't have like 2:54:12.560 --> 2:54:15.640 really like memory culture like integrated into like a day 2:54:15.680 --> 2:54:19.480 to day existence, and in fact it's obviously being even 2:54:19.520 --> 2:54:22.840 fought against, like in Florida and other places like that. 2:54:24.160 --> 2:54:27.800 Oh, I just love that that idea of memory culture 2:54:27.800 --> 2:54:30.760 in general. I've never heard of that love that so much. 2:54:30.920 --> 2:54:33.440 And I mean just even thinking about it, just as 2:54:33.480 --> 2:54:39.800 we're talking Germany, has they refuse to forget an atrocity 2:54:39.840 --> 2:54:43.080 that they did, right? I think it's it's a little 2:54:43.080 --> 2:54:46.959 bit interesting that in America they've forgotten about the atrocities 2:54:47.000 --> 2:54:49.400 they did and they want to not forget about an 2:54:49.400 --> 2:54:52.400 atrocity that was done to them. So it's almost like 2:54:53.240 --> 2:54:58.880 very victimy of America if you ask me, because it's 2:54:58.920 --> 2:55:03.800 really easy not to get when someone wronged you, but 2:55:03.879 --> 2:55:08.760 I think it's really convenient to forget when you, you know, 2:55:10.360 --> 2:55:12.520 destroy the entire civilization. Do you know what I mean? 2:55:12.560 --> 2:55:16.000 To put it lightly exactly? And I'm not trying to 2:55:16.000 --> 2:55:19.000 say to take nine to eleven lightly at all. I 2:55:19.040 --> 2:55:22.520 think what happened was atrocious and terrible. But when you 2:55:22.520 --> 2:55:26.600 think about memory culture and what Germany is so committed 2:55:26.640 --> 2:55:30.320 to remembering versus America, just a little interesting to me 2:55:30.440 --> 2:55:33.080 now that I think about it, and who committed who 2:55:33.320 --> 2:55:36.960 or who committed what? Rather, Yeah, before I get it 2:55:37.120 --> 2:55:39.720 to Rambley, let's take our first break and we'll be 2:55:40.000 --> 2:55:45.640 right back, and we're back with Amy. Amy. When we 2:55:45.640 --> 2:55:50.160 were talking about recording together, in addition to ancestral healing, 2:55:50.240 --> 2:55:54.880 you talked about the importance of building a diasporus Jewish 2:55:54.879 --> 2:55:57.880 community that has committed to solidarity with Palestinians and other 2:55:57.959 --> 2:56:03.879 marginalized people, generally through an anarchist lens, and also building 2:56:03.879 --> 2:56:07.760 a safe community for Jews outside of Israel to counter 2:56:07.959 --> 2:56:10.720 the rhetoric that the only place that's safe for Jews 2:56:10.760 --> 2:56:13.640 is Israel. And as you said, it generally leads to 2:56:13.720 --> 2:56:20.600 a large focused on anti fascism and cultural reclamation, So 2:56:20.720 --> 2:56:22.560 can you talk to me a little bit about that. 2:56:22.800 --> 2:56:26.280 And then there's certain communities that you're a part of 2:56:26.320 --> 2:56:28.440 that I really want to get into, but let's start there. 2:56:28.879 --> 2:56:31.920 Yeah, So kind of in this journey, I would say 2:56:32.040 --> 2:56:35.320 of saying, okay, like if we're going to be a 2:56:35.400 --> 2:56:37.800 Jewish antiesionist, so we're going to be Jewish anarchists, Like 2:56:37.800 --> 2:56:39.959 what does that materially look like? Like how do we. 2:56:41.480 --> 2:56:42.680 Put that into practice? 2:56:43.280 --> 2:56:44.840 And so yeah, I kind of honed it on those 2:56:44.920 --> 2:56:49.280 two aspects again of safety and culture, and so a 2:56:49.280 --> 2:56:53.720 lot of my work now is around thinking about, like 2:56:53.760 --> 2:56:57.760 how do we create safety for Jews in the places 2:56:57.760 --> 2:57:02.720 where they are lithid in diaspora? Development into like growing 2:57:02.800 --> 2:57:06.760 to this like Jewish antisigonism and Jewish anarchism, trying to 2:57:07.120 --> 2:57:09.080 understand like what does it mean to like actually put 2:57:09.080 --> 2:57:12.760 this into practice and or what I was thinking of 2:57:12.760 --> 2:57:16.000 that I was trying to think of, like how do 2:57:16.120 --> 2:57:19.000 we create safety for Jews in the places where they 2:57:19.000 --> 2:57:21.880 want to live in diaspora and also create the environment 2:57:22.000 --> 2:57:25.959 where Jewish culture is able to flourish. And that's led me, 2:57:26.360 --> 2:57:30.240 Like you said to developing and supporting and working with 2:57:30.640 --> 2:57:33.039 a lot of Jewish communities that are like committed to 2:57:33.040 --> 2:57:38.240 like anti fascism, committed to solidarity with other marginalized peoples, 2:57:39.000 --> 2:57:44.520 and also really committed to like reclamation of Jewish traditions, 2:57:45.160 --> 2:57:48.560 specifically by like more marginalized people within the Jewish community 2:57:48.560 --> 2:57:52.760 as well. And I really see like those projects as 2:57:53.400 --> 2:57:57.440 like part of my like solidarity work, even though it 2:57:57.560 --> 2:58:02.600 is supporting like Jewish people peoples in the day to day, 2:58:03.080 --> 2:58:06.880 but ultimately it's creating a spaciousness where Jews don't feel 2:58:06.879 --> 2:58:10.000 like they have to like cling on to Zionism in 2:58:10.040 --> 2:58:14.680 the ways that they were before. And I'm really curious 2:58:14.720 --> 2:58:21.680 also of like how to sort of make that practice 2:58:22.040 --> 2:58:28.120 more visible to the general left, because I do like 2:58:28.160 --> 2:58:29.800 a big part of like the book I'm writing, like 2:58:29.840 --> 2:58:33.480 there's a whole section of me talking about what it's 2:58:33.520 --> 2:58:36.200 like to have lived in Pittsburgh like before and after 2:58:36.280 --> 2:58:39.400 the Tree of Life shooting, where I was a teacher 2:58:39.440 --> 2:58:42.920 at the synagogue at the time that had happened. So 2:58:43.080 --> 2:58:46.720 my life was like very impacted by this like really 2:58:47.280 --> 2:58:53.760 like horrible like active violence, like antisemitic violence, And the 2:58:53.800 --> 2:58:58.360 most shocking part was that like anti Semitism was occurring 2:58:58.480 --> 2:59:02.160 before that happened, and it still continued after, like in 2:59:02.200 --> 2:59:06.600 Pittsburgh specifically. So like the question left me with is 2:59:06.680 --> 2:59:11.720 like are we actually addressing like the rise of anti 2:59:11.760 --> 2:59:16.840 Semitism in America today? And that's why I want to 2:59:16.879 --> 2:59:20.640 like really talk about this praxis of like addressing anti 2:59:20.680 --> 2:59:24.640 Semitism and allowing in creating space where Jewish culture can flourish, 2:59:24.760 --> 2:59:29.440 like as a practice that I'm curious for more people 2:59:29.480 --> 2:59:34.360 on the left to understand as like vitally important like 2:59:34.480 --> 2:59:40.320 for Jewish people and also for solidarity with Palestinians too. 2:59:42.600 --> 2:59:45.720 So that's that's my topic that I'm very interested in 2:59:45.800 --> 2:59:46.200 right now. 2:59:46.720 --> 2:59:49.880 No, I love that. I think it's so important what 2:59:49.920 --> 2:59:53.680 you're saying and so necessary to build a community where 2:59:53.840 --> 2:59:57.200 Jewish people feel safe that so yeah, exactly, they don't 2:59:57.240 --> 2:59:58.920 have to cling on to Zionism as a way to 2:59:58.959 --> 3:00:03.960 feel accepted or safe or belong or have belonging anywhere. 3:00:04.840 --> 3:00:07.480 And in that way, it's it's really simple to see 3:00:07.560 --> 3:00:12.840 how that's intertwined with solidarity of Palestinians because it ultimately 3:00:12.879 --> 3:00:15.200 is saying like Israel is all the end, all be all, 3:00:15.560 --> 3:00:18.959 Like we're at the end of the day, people going 3:00:19.000 --> 3:00:22.480 through shit have We have our cultures and we have 3:00:22.560 --> 3:00:25.600 to stick by each other. Maybe that's a little bit elementary, 3:00:25.640 --> 3:00:29.600 but I think what I'm trying to say is I 3:00:29.640 --> 3:00:36.160 really appreciate that you have built this community and are 3:00:36.200 --> 3:00:41.560 so committed to continuing to enrich it and develop it, 3:00:41.600 --> 3:00:46.000 because I think that's so essential, especially just considering like 3:00:47.040 --> 3:00:49.240 the idea of Zionism in the first place, like that 3:00:49.280 --> 3:00:53.680 really pure intention that was there. I think it's okay 3:00:53.800 --> 3:00:56.640 to still live on in certain areas because it was pure. 3:00:56.720 --> 3:01:00.119 It wasn't it wasn't about Israel at all. Israel has 3:01:00.120 --> 3:01:04.280 today rather, Yeah, so can you tell me about this 3:01:04.440 --> 3:01:06.240 organization Rage? 3:01:06.760 --> 3:01:11.640 Yeah, so RAGE is this small collective called that CRADEM 3:01:11.720 --> 3:01:15.440 stands for Rebellious Anarchist Young Jews. In the most basic sense, 3:01:16.120 --> 3:01:20.080 we formed this as like a sort of response to 3:01:21.320 --> 3:01:25.240 like the Zionism that we were experiencing around us, and 3:01:25.360 --> 3:01:27.480 a lot of it, like the word rage being like 3:01:27.560 --> 3:01:31.320 anger of like wow, I can't believe, like this is 3:01:31.320 --> 3:01:35.520 what's being sold to us as like our liberation and 3:01:35.640 --> 3:01:38.840 what it formed into was like after the Tree of 3:01:38.840 --> 3:01:42.560 Life shooting my sibling pretty much text memes like let's 3:01:42.640 --> 3:01:46.640 make this thing happen again, and we started to create 3:01:46.680 --> 3:01:49.520 like more like political like Jewish anarchist like art and 3:01:49.560 --> 3:01:54.640 writing and putting it out on Facebook and people started 3:01:54.640 --> 3:01:58.360 responding to it, and it really felt like a piece 3:01:58.480 --> 3:02:01.680 of like the rising of like a Jewish anarchist movement 3:02:02.200 --> 3:02:05.200 in this country right now, a piece of many, but 3:02:05.480 --> 3:02:13.000 something that kind of was like a light or like 3:02:13.400 --> 3:02:18.400 what's the phrase, like like a bat signal is the 3:02:18.440 --> 3:02:20.560 only way I can put it of. Like, hey, like 3:02:21.360 --> 3:02:23.840 all of you out there who are thinking about like 3:02:23.879 --> 3:02:27.080 what Jewish anarchism might mean, are thinking about like what 3:02:27.280 --> 3:02:32.400 like organizing could look like when it's based on our 3:02:32.440 --> 3:02:35.080 culture and our practices and has like deep reverence for 3:02:35.160 --> 3:02:41.080 that instead of like an embarrassment around our practices. All 3:02:41.080 --> 3:02:43.560 of you who are like creative and artistic, and that's 3:02:43.600 --> 3:02:47.480 your mode of engagement of engaging, like we can come 3:02:47.480 --> 3:02:51.240 together and we can like create something new, and that 3:02:51.320 --> 3:02:54.560 has just like that desire has just grown since then 3:02:55.000 --> 3:02:57.520 and is being reflected and so much organizing right now. 3:02:58.280 --> 3:03:01.280 Enrage itself is like not we're not really doing as 3:03:01.360 --> 3:03:04.640 much as a collective anymore, but definitely that spirit is 3:03:04.640 --> 3:03:07.280 like living on in a lot of like in the 3:03:07.280 --> 3:03:10.560 book and writing, and like the work that my sibling's doing, 3:03:10.680 --> 3:03:13.960 and in a lot of like the artistic creation that's 3:03:13.959 --> 3:03:15.640 happening around Jewish anarchism. 3:03:16.240 --> 3:03:20.880 I love that. That's so cool. I'm really grateful that 3:03:20.879 --> 3:03:24.280 out of something so horrific that you went through, you 3:03:24.320 --> 3:03:27.800 were able to come together with your sibling and almost 3:03:28.000 --> 3:03:30.360 use that as fuel to really come together. I think 3:03:30.400 --> 3:03:32.120 it's really beautiful. 3:03:32.480 --> 3:03:35.640 Yeah, And I think that's like that felt like the 3:03:35.720 --> 3:03:39.080 challenge in that moment was like, are we gonna use 3:03:39.120 --> 3:03:44.000 this as a moment to support the police who you know, 3:03:44.120 --> 3:03:47.320 killed the shooter. We're going to use us a moment 3:03:47.440 --> 3:03:50.200 to like buddy up with the politicians who are trying 3:03:50.320 --> 3:03:54.040 to like befriend the Jewish community now all of a sudden. 3:03:54.840 --> 3:03:56.520 Or are we going to use as a moment, like 3:03:56.680 --> 3:03:58.600 a big phrase that was being thrown around in Pittsburgh 3:03:58.640 --> 3:04:01.040 was like safety and solidarity, or we're going to use 3:04:01.040 --> 3:04:03.960 as a moment to like really affirm that message and 3:04:04.040 --> 3:04:07.360 to really like speak to the danger that we are 3:04:07.360 --> 3:04:10.840 feeling as Jews in this country and the resilience that 3:04:10.879 --> 3:04:13.440 we have and the resistance and the revolutionary power we 3:04:13.520 --> 3:04:19.879 have to like sort of call out the systems that 3:04:19.920 --> 3:04:24.840 are creating that. And I'm really grateful, yeah that my 3:04:24.959 --> 3:04:27.959 sibling and others around me were able to like create 3:04:28.000 --> 3:04:30.360 that path through a more revolutionary mode. 3:04:31.040 --> 3:04:35.560 Yeah, oh it's important, especially, Yeah, you don't want to 3:04:35.600 --> 3:04:39.280 see your community use as a tool for politics. I 3:04:39.280 --> 3:04:43.520 think having that be a product of such a tragedy 3:04:43.640 --> 3:04:47.560 is shameful, and so fighting against that, I think is 3:04:47.600 --> 3:04:51.840 really necessary to maintain a sense of like reality, to 3:04:51.879 --> 3:04:53.959 be honest, like and not get caught up in like 3:04:54.040 --> 3:05:00.280 whatever reality I don't know, politicians or the media or 3:05:00.280 --> 3:05:02.080 whatever the ship wants you to believe in. 3:05:02.520 --> 3:05:08.040 Yeah. Yeah, So a few years after rage kind of 3:05:08.200 --> 3:05:13.560 continued to grow, I was able to found this community 3:05:13.600 --> 3:05:18.080 center called ret Zone Center for Healing and Resistance in Pittsburgh. 3:05:18.920 --> 3:05:20.480 And it's a. 3:05:20.480 --> 3:05:24.680 Queer Jewish anarchist community center. The only one, believe it 3:05:24.720 --> 3:05:27.920 or not, in the US maybe in the world. 3:05:28.840 --> 3:05:30.720 Also sad, do you know what I mean? Like I 3:05:30.760 --> 3:05:33.840 love it, I also have disappointed it. 3:05:33.920 --> 3:05:38.080 Yes, And it was like obviously a lot of community support, 3:05:38.320 --> 3:05:41.280 Like like i'd say, like I founded it, but it 3:05:41.360 --> 3:05:46.119 was more like I had the ability to like kind 3:05:46.120 --> 3:05:49.560 of pulled people together, pull together a space, get grant money, 3:05:49.640 --> 3:05:50.760 like do that type of work. 3:05:52.640 --> 3:05:56.280 And the idea is really like when we are like. 3:05:59.000 --> 3:06:03.800 In political struggle, we need to resist, but we also 3:06:03.879 --> 3:06:06.560 need to heal. And I think I was just also 3:06:06.600 --> 3:06:09.400 feeling like a lot and this was like in twenty 3:06:10.879 --> 3:06:15.600 nineteen ish, so the like integration of like healing and 3:06:15.840 --> 3:06:20.280 more like therapeutic techniques I felt like into like political 3:06:20.879 --> 3:06:24.000 frameworks like wasn't happening as much at the time as 3:06:24.040 --> 3:06:27.520 I think it is now even and just really claiming 3:06:27.680 --> 3:06:31.880 like we can't do political work without like our like 3:06:31.920 --> 3:06:35.840 healing work, and again like that creating a space where 3:06:36.080 --> 3:06:38.920 we could engage in like anti fascists organizing, we could 3:06:38.959 --> 3:06:43.160 engage in solidarity with other like marginalized people, and we 3:06:43.160 --> 3:06:46.800 could also really honor Jewish tradition and let that be 3:06:46.879 --> 3:06:51.000 like a foundation for us. And yeah, I ended up 3:06:51.080 --> 3:06:54.800 leaving the community this time last year to like pursue 3:06:54.800 --> 3:06:57.760 other things, But it still is existing in Pittsburgh and 3:06:57.879 --> 3:07:03.560 is still like very much like a hub for not 3:07:03.600 --> 3:07:05.879 just Jewish people too, but like a lot of people 3:07:05.959 --> 3:07:09.560 who are engaging in land and resistance work. 3:07:10.520 --> 3:07:14.640 Yeah, it's just I love that it exists and also 3:07:14.840 --> 3:07:18.760 just I was thinking, actually, I'm gonna hold that thought 3:07:19.040 --> 3:07:20.800 and I want to take our second break. Are you 3:07:20.800 --> 3:07:22.520 gonna have to to cut back and see what I 3:07:22.560 --> 3:07:28.640 was gonna say, So enjoy these ads. Okay, we're back. 3:07:28.800 --> 3:07:30.680 I had a coffee of it, and now I'm back. 3:07:31.200 --> 3:07:34.600 I was going to say that I love that all 3:07:34.640 --> 3:07:36.440 those things can be true at the same time, like 3:07:36.560 --> 3:07:43.520 Jewish solidarity and Palestinian solidarity, and remembering and practicing like 3:07:43.560 --> 3:07:46.360 traditional rituals and culture and traditions and practices and all 3:07:46.360 --> 3:07:49.640 this stuff. I think it's nice to remember that all 3:07:49.680 --> 3:07:51.560 of those can be true at the same time because 3:07:51.600 --> 3:07:56.760 I think, especially now, people identify anti Zionism with anti Semitism, 3:07:57.360 --> 3:08:00.600 and I think it's really important to see community of 3:08:00.840 --> 3:08:04.440 Jewish people like embracing their religion and culture and loving 3:08:04.480 --> 3:08:08.760 it and at the same time supporting Palestine, because it's 3:08:08.800 --> 3:08:12.320 just the clearest example of how Zionism is not a 3:08:12.360 --> 3:08:18.640 factor and your love of your culture and and your religion. 3:08:18.680 --> 3:08:21.959 I think it's a really good example of just I 3:08:21.959 --> 3:08:25.280 don't know, demonstrating how much of a falsity that is 3:08:25.320 --> 3:08:28.119 in the first place, to equate those two together when 3:08:28.240 --> 3:08:31.680 really Zionism itself is antismitic. As we mentioned in the 3:08:31.760 --> 3:08:36.039 last episode. I also want to give us plenty of 3:08:36.080 --> 3:08:39.440 time to talk about your work, and as much as 3:08:39.480 --> 3:08:41.120 you want to tell us about your new book, To 3:08:41.160 --> 3:08:44.120 the Ghosts Who Are Still Living, It's out and now 3:08:44.160 --> 3:08:49.720 everybody go get it. It's a book of essays and yeah, 3:08:49.840 --> 3:08:54.560 can you if you want to tell me how you 3:08:54.600 --> 3:08:56.879 came about even starting to write these essays and like 3:08:56.920 --> 3:09:00.840 what motivated you to embark on this journey? 3:09:01.560 --> 3:09:01.720 Yees. 3:09:01.760 --> 3:09:04.920 So I just came out today with this book To 3:09:04.959 --> 3:09:07.400 the ghost to Us Still Living, and it's my first 3:09:07.400 --> 3:09:10.920 book that I've read, and it's pretty much a collection 3:09:11.000 --> 3:09:14.640 of essays that is broken up into three sections. The 3:09:14.640 --> 3:09:17.680 first section is like stories of my ancestors in Eastern 3:09:17.680 --> 3:09:22.440 Europe and their lives and them coming to America and 3:09:22.480 --> 3:09:26.920 like that process. The second section is my stories of 3:09:27.080 --> 3:09:30.360 living in Pittsburgh during the rise of antisepitism. And the 3:09:30.360 --> 3:09:35.160 third section is returning back to my ancestors Shuttle, which 3:09:35.640 --> 3:09:39.440 the village in Lithuania last summer with my sister and 3:09:39.560 --> 3:09:42.680 kind of yeah, grappling with these questions of like do 3:09:42.800 --> 3:09:47.800 I belong here? Like what is this land? Where am 3:09:47.840 --> 3:09:49.880 I from? Like where do I where can I be 3:09:49.959 --> 3:09:54.040 in the world. So I guess like the clearest moment 3:09:54.040 --> 3:09:56.240 of when I felt like I needed to write this 3:09:56.600 --> 3:10:00.760 was during the summer of twenty twenty, and there was 3:10:01.560 --> 3:10:03.480 an incident that I write about in the book of 3:10:04.400 --> 3:10:08.120 Nazis coming to like the anarchist bookstore in Pittsburgh, which 3:10:08.160 --> 3:10:09.920 was like a few blocks from my house at the time, 3:10:10.840 --> 3:10:14.800 and they were I don't even remember like exactly what 3:10:14.840 --> 3:10:17.040 their posters said, but they were handing out these like 3:10:18.680 --> 3:10:23.720 anti anarchists posters that like probably had something anti Semitic 3:10:23.800 --> 3:10:26.240 on them also or just like that vibe was there 3:10:26.720 --> 3:10:30.360 and they were just flying, and the cops came up 3:10:30.520 --> 3:10:34.920 and shook hands with these Nazis and let them stay. 3:10:35.360 --> 3:10:39.360 Wow and but sail out exactly. 3:10:40.200 --> 3:10:42.640 And then the Nazis actually ended up pulling a gun 3:10:42.800 --> 3:10:45.800 on some of the anti fascist protesters who were there 3:10:46.480 --> 3:10:49.959 and didn't actually end up like shooting anyone. 3:10:49.640 --> 3:10:49.800 But. 3:10:51.600 --> 3:10:53.000 That was the scene of what had happened. 3:10:53.600 --> 3:10:56.280 But still the fact that that he whoever that was, 3:10:56.280 --> 3:10:58.959 was able to do that in the cops, any buddy, 3:10:59.800 --> 3:11:02.480 yeah exactly, just to make it more clear how shit 3:11:02.920 --> 3:11:05.080 the cops are totally. 3:11:06.120 --> 3:11:08.560 And so yeah, I just witnessed that all happen, and 3:11:09.360 --> 3:11:15.440 it just kind of felt like the last the last straw, 3:11:15.560 --> 3:11:16.800 I guess, the last thing. 3:11:17.680 --> 3:11:18.600 And I just felt like. 3:11:20.120 --> 3:11:25.400 Kind of ripped open inside realizing that the anti Semitism 3:11:25.440 --> 3:11:29.040 that I had been researching, like in my own family's 3:11:29.200 --> 3:11:32.520 history was like happening right now, like to me in 3:11:32.560 --> 3:11:35.720 this moment, and I just had this feeling that like 3:11:35.800 --> 3:11:39.200 I was like, I don't know if people on the 3:11:39.320 --> 3:11:42.280 left or people in general are like really seeing what's happening, 3:11:42.959 --> 3:11:46.520 you know, really like understanding like the fear that I have, 3:11:46.920 --> 3:11:50.039 like as a Jewish person right now, and I'm not 3:11:50.080 --> 3:11:54.520 sure if people are like understanding that connection to like 3:11:54.560 --> 3:11:57.760 the contemporary fascism that's happening in the US, to the 3:11:57.800 --> 3:12:03.520 fascism that my ancestors experienced. And it made me really sad, 3:12:03.560 --> 3:12:06.040 and it made me like really feel so much pain 3:12:07.040 --> 3:12:09.880 because I just didn't want my family stories to be 3:12:10.400 --> 3:12:12.920 like forgotten or not to be remembered in this moment 3:12:12.959 --> 3:12:16.000 when I think we're trying to understand what's happening in 3:12:16.040 --> 3:12:20.120 this country, and like my family has already gone through 3:12:20.160 --> 3:12:23.440 a lot of what's happened, you know, yeah, yeah, And 3:12:23.480 --> 3:12:25.600 we're being attacked now in that way. 3:12:26.920 --> 3:12:29.560 I mean, as far as our history books go, an 3:12:29.640 --> 3:12:33.000 dis Semitism ended when all of us ended, right exactly, 3:12:33.360 --> 3:12:34.920 so in the US, like saved the day. 3:12:34.800 --> 3:12:35.199 Yeah. 3:12:36.920 --> 3:12:39.520 Exactly. I think that's literally the narrative that a lot 3:12:39.560 --> 3:12:42.040 of people believe in this in this country, which is 3:12:42.120 --> 3:12:47.160 so unfortunate because it just, yeah, it's so what incidents 3:12:47.160 --> 3:12:49.560 like this happen. It's not just like out of the blue. 3:12:49.959 --> 3:12:55.480 It's because there's this lingering hatred and fascism that's been 3:12:55.520 --> 3:13:00.240 there and just growing and evolving and going undetected. Even 3:13:00.240 --> 3:13:04.119 though it's so obvious, it's just become I don't know, 3:13:04.200 --> 3:13:06.320 maybe I was gonna say more subtle, but at this 3:13:06.360 --> 3:13:09.360 point it's not subtle at all. They're very outright about it. 3:13:09.920 --> 3:13:12.320 But I think it's like almost become like normalized, just 3:13:12.360 --> 3:13:13.720 exactly exactly. 3:13:16.240 --> 3:13:19.800 But no, I thank you for sharing that, uh, And 3:13:20.920 --> 3:13:25.000 I I mean I can imagine that potentially this book 3:13:25.120 --> 3:13:28.440 was like maybe healthy process or like heal a little 3:13:28.480 --> 3:13:30.960 bit yourself. Did that happened definitely? 3:13:31.040 --> 3:13:33.800 Yeah, Like at a certain point I was writing these 3:13:33.879 --> 3:13:37.400 essays and I was like, I don't even need to 3:13:37.400 --> 3:13:39.240 do anything with this, Like this has been like the 3:13:39.280 --> 3:13:43.920 most healing project that I've already done, and so like 3:13:43.959 --> 3:13:46.720 also my hope with this book is that the healing 3:13:46.720 --> 3:13:49.520 that it's offered me like perhaps it can offer to others. 3:13:49.760 --> 3:13:51.760 And I've kind of been thinking of it as like 3:13:53.520 --> 3:13:56.160 in Jewish myth, there's like this idea of like a 3:13:56.200 --> 3:14:01.520 golum or a gollum that's like this monster created from 3:14:01.520 --> 3:14:05.200 the mud with like the word Emmett written on its forehead, 3:14:05.760 --> 3:14:09.400 which means truth, and this monster is like raised from 3:14:09.440 --> 3:14:12.920 the mud to protect the Jewish community of Prague against 3:14:12.959 --> 3:14:13.840 anti Semitism. 3:14:14.959 --> 3:14:18.440 WHOA, yeah, it's a really cool story. 3:14:17.720 --> 3:14:18.840 Cool cool. 3:14:19.480 --> 3:14:20.039 Yeah. 3:14:20.240 --> 3:14:22.720 So I've kind of been like, oh, I wonder if 3:14:22.760 --> 3:14:24.720 like this book can I kind of be like a gollum, 3:14:25.040 --> 3:14:31.240 you know, like this kind of anti fascists monster mud 3:14:31.600 --> 3:14:35.440 creature made from words that can like offer healing and 3:14:35.480 --> 3:14:42.680 maybe offer some like protection in this moment. So that's 3:14:42.680 --> 3:14:44.720 that's my greatest hope for this book right now. 3:14:46.200 --> 3:14:51.600 That's first of all, sick about the monster. I love that, 3:14:51.959 --> 3:14:54.720 Love that for you, and love that for me everybody. 3:14:57.160 --> 3:14:59.600 It's second, I think that's a beautiful intent and I 3:14:59.600 --> 3:15:03.960 think it one hundred percent will help others heal. And 3:15:04.040 --> 3:15:07.000 even if the person reading it is not Jewish, I 3:15:07.040 --> 3:15:11.640 think it's important to remember and to realize that you 3:15:11.760 --> 3:15:15.840 still have very real fear being a Jewish person living 3:15:16.080 --> 3:15:20.400 in America or anywhere else, you know, because anti Semitism. 3:15:20.400 --> 3:15:23.840 Did it get solved when Hitler shot himself? If I'm sorry, guys, 3:15:24.480 --> 3:15:27.119 and so I think this book can help a lot 3:15:27.160 --> 3:15:30.000 of people, and I really encourage everyone to go buy 3:15:30.040 --> 3:15:33.320 it now. We're recording today on August first, and today 3:15:33.360 --> 3:15:35.360 is when it was released, so by the time you 3:15:35.440 --> 3:15:39.440 hear it, it'll be out and ready to be read. 3:15:40.240 --> 3:15:44.320 I just highly encourage you to really dive into Omni's 3:15:44.360 --> 3:15:49.160 work because it's just so important and so healing for everybody. 3:15:49.320 --> 3:15:53.840 Thank you, of course, I really appreciate you taking the 3:15:53.920 --> 3:15:57.640 time to open yourself up and because I know a 3:15:57.640 --> 3:16:00.600 lot of these things have really painful origins and appreciate 3:16:00.640 --> 3:16:02.519 that you're willing to talk about them. 3:16:02.959 --> 3:16:07.560 Yeah, thank you. Yeah. And I also hope that like, yeah, 3:16:07.640 --> 3:16:11.280 like this book also can sort of be like a 3:16:11.320 --> 3:16:15.520 window for like leftists who want to like integrate more 3:16:15.560 --> 3:16:18.760 like Jewish history into their anti fascism, that it can 3:16:18.800 --> 3:16:22.000 be like a window for that, and I do hope 3:16:22.040 --> 3:16:25.640 like also that it can like also build bridges with 3:16:25.640 --> 3:16:31.080 like other peoples who have experienced genocide, experience displacement from lands, 3:16:31.120 --> 3:16:35.280 experienced like experience ongoing like fear for their safety where 3:16:35.280 --> 3:16:38.680 they are in the world. And I hope it also 3:16:38.800 --> 3:16:42.960 like sharing like my family stories that like those bridges 3:16:42.959 --> 3:16:47.560 can start to like be built and we can start 3:16:47.600 --> 3:16:50.720 to create more community around that shared history as well. 3:16:51.440 --> 3:16:56.840 To really build strong allyship with the Jewish community. Actually 3:16:56.959 --> 3:17:00.400 understanding what that means and actually understanding what the Jewish 3:17:00.400 --> 3:17:02.960 community is going through and the fears they have. I 3:17:02.959 --> 3:17:08.119 think that is where you have to start. So so yeah, 3:17:08.440 --> 3:17:11.879 I just I'm so glad to have had this conversation 3:17:12.320 --> 3:17:14.520 and I know people will benefit from it, and I 3:17:14.520 --> 3:17:19.879 one percent no people will benefit from your book again, 3:17:20.520 --> 3:17:24.320 that is to the ghosts who are still living. You 3:17:24.320 --> 3:17:26.359 can buy it now through your publisher, which. 3:17:26.160 --> 3:17:29.360 Is Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. 3:17:30.520 --> 3:17:34.000 Nice, and I'll put all the links in the description 3:17:34.080 --> 3:17:37.039 of the episodes on these website and all the good stuff. 3:17:37.640 --> 3:17:41.120 But yeah, thank you again for joining me today. I'm 3:17:41.120 --> 3:17:43.160 gonna probably drag you back at some point just to 3:17:43.200 --> 3:17:45.039 continue talking to you because You've been lovely. 3:17:46.120 --> 3:17:46.360 Thank you. 3:17:46.520 --> 3:17:47.879 Yeah, I'm happy to be back on. 3:17:48.120 --> 3:17:50.440 Hell yeah I did a good job. If you said that, 3:17:51.400 --> 3:17:54.480 I'm kidding. Do you have any kind of social media 3:17:54.520 --> 3:17:56.760 you want people to follow you at or just the book? 3:17:57.600 --> 3:17:57.920 I do? 3:17:58.000 --> 3:18:04.200 Yes, let me. I'm really bad at social media. I'm 3:18:04.400 --> 3:18:07.959 trying to be better. Okay, you can also follow me 3:18:08.160 --> 3:18:14.120 on Instagram, Ammy Wintraub three. That's a M I W 3:18:14.560 --> 3:18:16.880 E I N T R A U B and the 3:18:16.959 --> 3:18:20.600 number three. And I'm, like I said, like the work 3:18:20.600 --> 3:18:25.000 I'm doing, I hope is like conversation starters, is like 3:18:25.080 --> 3:18:27.879 ways to build connections. So also this was interesting to you. 3:18:28.800 --> 3:18:32.200 Feel free to like reach out and say hey and yeah, 3:18:32.240 --> 3:18:34.080 and my voice is just like one of many on 3:18:34.120 --> 3:18:37.240 this topic. And I hope that, yeah, people continue to 3:18:37.800 --> 3:18:42.000 study and learn and explore the nuances of of what 3:18:42.000 --> 3:18:43.360 I've shared today. 3:18:43.520 --> 3:18:47.120 Thank you And a big reason why I wanted to 3:18:47.240 --> 3:18:51.680 have these conversations and have them as conversations. Stillso illustrate 3:18:51.760 --> 3:18:55.400 that it's possible to talk about these these like Zion 3:18:55.440 --> 3:18:58.040 is a particular which is this very taboo almost like 3:18:58.120 --> 3:19:00.400 weird word to say out loud. Just a lot of people. 3:19:01.040 --> 3:19:03.640 It's really helpful to talk about it casually and openly, 3:19:03.920 --> 3:19:05.879 because that's how we're going to understand it. That's how 3:19:05.920 --> 3:19:09.680 we're going to understand the anti Zionism and why Zionism 3:19:09.760 --> 3:19:12.080 isn't great right now and all this other stuff. So 3:19:12.720 --> 3:19:17.720 I hope that someone took that away and we'll continue 3:19:17.720 --> 3:19:21.039 to have these conversations in their personal lives, because this 3:19:21.160 --> 3:19:24.800 is just a fucking podcast, you know, but real life 3:19:24.840 --> 3:19:28.520 is what matters. So yeah, that's all I have to say. 3:19:30.040 --> 3:19:33.720 Thank you again, you are the best, and go buy 3:19:33.720 --> 3:19:36.200 AMI's book to the Ghost Source to Living Go buy 3:19:36.200 --> 3:19:36.960 it now. 3:19:40.240 --> 3:19:43.400 Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 3:19:43.480 --> 3:19:45.359 from now until the heat death of the Universe. 3:19:45.959 --> 3:19:48.480 It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. 3:19:48.560 --> 3:19:51.240 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3:19:51.240 --> 3:19:54.360 Coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 3:19:54.400 --> 3:19:57.039 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 3:19:57.320 --> 3:19:59.440 You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 3:19:59.520 --> 3:20:02.560 monthly at Coolzonmedia dot com slash sources. 3:20:02.720 --> 3:20:03.840 Thanks for listening.