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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 1: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 2: Hi, this is Mia.

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Speaker 3: So before we get to today's episode, last Friday, the

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Speaker 3: rank and file of the Burgerville Workers Union, which is

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Speaker 3: the country's first successful fast food union, went on strike

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Speaker 3: against a campaign of disciplinings and firings of primarily trans

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Speaker 3: and POC workers by the bosses who are once again

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Speaker 3: trying to crush the union. The strike has worked so far,

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Speaker 3: but they need support from the community to help pay

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Speaker 3: workers and help these people feed their families so they

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Speaker 3: can continue fighting the bosses, capitalism and building democracy in

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Speaker 3: the workplace. You can go to Bitley's Slash Burger Defense

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Speaker 3: to do it. To their funds, we will have linked

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Speaker 3: to that description. And yeah, thank you all so much,

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Speaker 3: and now onto the.

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Speaker 2: Show, Ba and welcome to it. Could happen.

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Speaker 4: Sheer part of wool Zone Media. I am one of

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Speaker 4: your hosts, DJ Daniel, and I am joined by three

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Speaker 4: wonderful people, one of which is actually going to lead

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Speaker 4: us to the problem. I didn't press record on my

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Speaker 4: own device that I cannot believe that everybody to press record?

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Speaker 5: Should we all make a fine No?

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Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: it's gonna I'm so fucking stupid.

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Speaker 3: Second, we're gonna do it again if this is good.

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Speaker 2: But you know what, I'm keeping all of this.

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Speaker 3: Anyway.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I am bah.

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Speaker 2: And welcome to it could happen.

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Speaker 4: Sheer, part of the wool Zone Media network. I am

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Speaker 4: one of your hosts, DJ Daniel, but really I'm just

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Speaker 4: gonna be listening as someone else walks us through. I

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Speaker 4: am joined by three wonderful co hosts, and I'm going

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Speaker 4: to let them introduce themselves. How about we start with

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Speaker 4: the person leading this conversation, James, How you doing?

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Speaker 6: I'm wonderful, Dinna, I'm very excited.

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Speaker 2: And who are we?

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Speaker 6: Joined by Cherene? Do you want to say hi?

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Speaker 5: Do I want to say hi? This is what I

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Speaker 5: sound like today? Everybody, I apologize they're not part of

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Speaker 5: the plan, but hopefully this is a fun episode to

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Speaker 5: listen to me sound like this. This is Charene. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: I'm here.

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Speaker 4: Charen is doing her plague cosplay right now, and we

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Speaker 4: are joined by one other wonderful person.

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Speaker 2: Would you like to introduce yourself?

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Speaker 7: Hi?

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Speaker 3: Ged Mia and Mia also here Yay knows nothing about sheep.

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Speaker 2: Very excited.

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Speaker 5: I'm very excited, even though I sound like this, I

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Speaker 5: need to be here because I learned so much about

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Speaker 5: chickens last time. Now it's shape.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, so proud that you fought through to pain.

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Speaker 4: By the way, ba, sheer and wool is the full

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Speaker 4: extent of my sheep knowledge. So you know we got

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Speaker 4: it all out of the way right there.

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Speaker 6: Great, all right, But anyway, let's get going because I've

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Speaker 6: got four pages of bullet points.

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Speaker 2: Oh god, it.

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Speaker 6: Could be a week of sheep content.

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Speaker 2: Wonderful.

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Speaker 6: All right, Yeah, so talking about sheep. The reason we're

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Speaker 6: talking about sheep is A because it's it's passionate mine

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Speaker 6: and b because someone on the subreddit who's I'm just

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Speaker 6: going to get their username quickly. I can't say the

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Speaker 6: catiff cassif we had one of those, they posted sheep

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Speaker 6: every day until until they guessed the breed of sheep

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Speaker 6: that I had in my mind. And when they guessed

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Speaker 6: that the sheep, I said I would do a sheep episode.

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Speaker 6: That was two months ago. I think they did it

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Speaker 6: while I was away in the.

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Speaker 2: Desert before they got it. They got it quick too.

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Speaker 6: They got to like, day, I just searched sheep on

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Speaker 6: the subreddit. One of my friends, Like they were like, oh,

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Speaker 6: I look at the subreddit for your work stuff the

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Speaker 6: other day and it's just a lot of sheep. Man,

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Speaker 6: what do you do? Yeah, but yeah, they did very well.

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Speaker 6: They eventually picked the sheep, which was a Scotch black

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Speaker 6: face famous for being just In Trudeau's favorite sheep. And

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Speaker 6: I got to get a man, why you can strike

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Speaker 6: a Canadian? I think it's impossible to say that on

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Speaker 6: a podcast and not not try, I think. But yeah, hopefully,

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Speaker 6: hopefully we've sailed through that one. So when are we

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Speaker 6: talking about sheep? Right When you're thinking of getting sheep,

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Speaker 6: the first thing I think you have to ask yourself

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Speaker 6: is why. And that is a good question because obviously

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Speaker 6: they're a lot of work, and they are like born

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Speaker 6: ready to die, and every point in the sheep owning

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Speaker 6: process you are. You can't say that we are all

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Speaker 6: born ready to die. We're just here temporarily postponing.

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Speaker 2: The because they're covered in war and we die.

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Speaker 4: The war smart incredible.

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Speaker 2: I'm many air horns and bombs right there.

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Speaker 6: Yeah. I was going to say, Dan, if you could

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Speaker 6: give yourself like a big old symbol, but that would

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Speaker 6: be great. Okay. So yeah, So when you're looking at sheep, right,

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Speaker 6: it's a lot of work. But they're also very lovely.

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Speaker 6: I enjoy sheep a lot. They can be very friendly.

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Speaker 6: They're a nice animal. They're not like cattle. Sheep seem

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Speaker 6: more personable to me. And you know, they're soft, which

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Speaker 6: is nice. So when you think about getting sheep, you

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Speaker 6: got to think, do I want these sheep for meat?

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Speaker 6: Do I want these sheep for wool? Or do I

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Speaker 6: want these sheep for milk? Those are the three main reasons.

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Speaker 6: They are also a thing called park sheep. When we're

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Speaker 6: talking about parks here, we're not talking about like that

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Speaker 6: they live in central Park. We're talking about like the

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Speaker 6: it's a big field in front of a rich person's house.

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Speaker 6: I think this is probably a specifically British thing, and people, Yeah,

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Speaker 6: people are looking at me, like it's a British thing.

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Speaker 6: So big stately homes for rich people in rural England

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Speaker 6: will have a big field in front. At the home,

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Speaker 6: it's a long driveway on it. That driveway is generally

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Speaker 6: planted with big trees leading up to the house and

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Speaker 6: it's like you've watched down to TV. Yeah, so if

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Speaker 6: you can, yes, a country of state exactly. So like

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Speaker 6: in that country estate my dad, by both my parents

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Speaker 6: and agriculture and my dad works. Someone had a large

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Speaker 6: country estate one point in my childhood. They would have

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Speaker 6: sheep in that park. But like those she aren't really

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Speaker 6: there to like make money, they're there to look fancy.

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Speaker 6: So that's where you get some really crazy sheep. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 6: parksp Yeah. If you if you want to go and

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Speaker 6: have a look up Jacob's Jacob sheep, there's some there's

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Speaker 6: some audience participation. So if you guys get opened up

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Speaker 6: a tab and google a Jacob sheep.

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Speaker 2: Classic like old Jacob je.

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Speaker 6: Whoa, yeah, oh god. It's it's called a polyserate sheep

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Speaker 6: because it has multiple horns. I don't know the ones

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Speaker 6: you're seeing have four horns, but that's a classic Jacob sheep.

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Speaker 6: And they're piebald, right, multiple colors, and that's I didn't.

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Speaker 5: Know horns can look like that.

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Speaker 6: On a sp Oh yeah, there are quite a few

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Speaker 6: poly serrot sheet Hebridean sheep sometimes Navajo Tura sheep if

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Speaker 6: you're in the United States, so like that too. So yeah,

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Speaker 6: that's an option for sheep, you.

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Speaker 4: Know, just to paint a picture for anybody who's not

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Speaker 4: also actively googling this right now.

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Speaker 2: So you're driving in your car going for a stock

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Speaker 2: dog and you can't can't google something.

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Speaker 4: This is honestly, this is the sheep image that I

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Speaker 4: think was thought of when people think of like a

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Speaker 4: devil sheep or like these have sheep like two long

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Speaker 4: horns out the top and horns out the sides. I

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Speaker 4: may just be playing a lot of Diablo for right now,

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Speaker 4: but I immediately was like, ah, demon sheep.

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Speaker 6: If you check out Hebridean sheep, they look like in

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Speaker 6: like a very death metal sheep. There there, they're all black.

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Speaker 2: Hebridean hebrid h E b R I D E A

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Speaker 2: N sheep yep. Whoa oh yeah, same thing, yeah.

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Speaker 6: Real baha met looking sheet. Yeah oh yeah. And at

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Speaker 6: the same time, yeah, that's what you want to strive

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Speaker 6: for in life. That's what I go for every time

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Speaker 6: I get dressed in the morning too. Yeah, yeah, good.

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Speaker 6: So you're looking at three different types of sheep, right,

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Speaker 6: basically your meat breeds, so they're going to grow quickly.

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Speaker 6: They're going to be bigger, which is going to be

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Speaker 6: something you have to take in consideration when you're handling

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Speaker 6: the sheep, right, and they're going to have more lambs.

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Speaker 6: You got your wool breeds, so they might be a

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Speaker 6: smaller They may need shearing twice a year though, so

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Speaker 6: that's something you're either going to have to do or

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Speaker 6: find someone to do, and they'll give a more desirable wool, right.

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Speaker 6: And there are different types of wolf for different things,

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Speaker 6: so that's something you might look into it. Like, g

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Speaker 6: if you're considering spinning or you know you're getting these

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Speaker 6: sheet primarily so you can go from like farm to jumper,

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Speaker 6: then you need to look into that. And I don't

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Speaker 6: actually know how you sell wool in the US and

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Speaker 6: the UK. It was kind of a centralized sale. It's

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Speaker 6: not it's not worth all for the most part, at

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Speaker 6: least unless you've got something like the Reno sheep. So like,

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Speaker 6: don't be getting wools sheep and thinking like, oh, hell yeah,

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Speaker 6: I'm going to make my fortune in the wall market

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Speaker 6: that ship. That ship has sailed centuries ago. So kind

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Speaker 6: of the classic sheep you're looking at for Like, a

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Speaker 6: lot of the sheep that you're going to see, at

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Speaker 6: least in the UK are very often mules. So that's

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Speaker 6: a cross breed of sheep. It's a blue face or

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Speaker 6: border lester ram over a hill breed. You So hill

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Speaker 6: breed sheeps are sheep? Are there more hardy?

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Speaker 8: Right?

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Speaker 6: They're the ones that live out on the Yorkshire Dales

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Speaker 6: or up in the Lake district. Right when you see

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Speaker 6: sheep up there, there's going to be hill breed sheep.

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Speaker 6: One of the advantages of hill breeds is they can

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Speaker 6: often be hefted. Are we familiar with hefting?

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Speaker 5: No?

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Speaker 2: Never, Okay.

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Speaker 6: Hefting is when a sheep knows where it's home is,

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Speaker 6: so it doesn't have to necessarily be fenced in. It

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Speaker 6: will come back there. So yeah, yeah, it's but it's

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Speaker 6: so it's a animal that lives out on the hills,

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Speaker 6: but it knows where to come back to. It's not

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Speaker 6: just going to be like sort of go mincing off

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Speaker 6: to try and explore somewhere new, like it will come back.

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Speaker 6: That is not a characteristic of all breeds of sheep.

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Speaker 6: Like you will talk about fencing, definitely, most sheep need

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Speaker 6: to be fenced in or they will just get out.

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Speaker 6: Some of them are very acrobatic. But yeah, these guys,

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Speaker 6: they can be hefted hill breeds, some hill bredes can

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Speaker 6: be hefted so well. That means it's passed down the

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Speaker 6: maternal line. So you're going to have to to retain

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Speaker 6: that maternal line. Right, So as you're breeding your sheep,

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Speaker 6: going to have to keep the U to the you lamb,

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Speaker 6: and you're going to have to keep that line because

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Speaker 6: they will teach their lamps to where to come back to. Basically, right,

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Speaker 6: ask a really dumb question, please, sar.

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Speaker 5: I recognize it's dumb and I can google it later,

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Speaker 5: but I need to know. Okay, I don't as someone

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Speaker 5: that doesn't eat a lot of meat. Okay, do we

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Speaker 5: only eat lamb? Does anyone eat sheep meat? Sheep meat?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that's called mushian.

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Speaker 2: I've never thought of it much. I have heard of

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Speaker 2: mutton so much sheep.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, have you heard that from Have you heard the

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Speaker 6: phrase mutton dressed as lamb. No, no, I think it's right.

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Speaker 5: That was like a British one.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's definitely probably British, right. I think it's rather sexist.

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Speaker 6: Is used in a condescending way for people who you

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Speaker 6: think are dressing too young for their age. I guess

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Speaker 6: so you might be familiar with that. I thought it

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Speaker 6: might be a good but no, I thought I had

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Speaker 6: a way to explain to you. But no, mutton, Yeah,

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Speaker 6: mutton is the oldest sheep. So there are some breeds

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Speaker 6: that you get for mutton. It's not very popular, like

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Speaker 6: like Americans don't eat as much lamb as British people do.

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Speaker 6: And I think New Zealanders eat a lot of it too,

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Speaker 6: but it's not as common here. So it's relatively common

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Speaker 6: in the UK. Like if you went to Azoopermarket, you'll

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Speaker 6: see it mutton not so much you have to cook

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Speaker 6: it for longer in search, yes they do.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, eat a lot of sheep too, interesting.

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Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, yeah, there are lots of It's it's a

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Speaker 6: very hardy like you can have sheep and a lot

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Speaker 6: of places where you can't have cattle. They're much tougher

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Speaker 6: animals like and they don't need as much grazing, right,

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Speaker 6: It's just not as much biomass on a sheep. So

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Speaker 6: like that's why when you go to hillier parts of

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Speaker 6: the UK, you're going to see sheep and not cattle

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Speaker 6: because that's the place where sheep can live. They don't

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Speaker 6: need is quality of grazing for the most part. So

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Speaker 6: let me go through a few breeds of sheep and

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Speaker 6: I'm going to go for what to look for when

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Speaker 6: you're buying a sheep, right, So just just some breeds

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Speaker 6: that I've sort of gone off the top of my

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Speaker 6: head here texels, and you guys can look these up

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Speaker 6: as we go. I think that will add add to

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Speaker 6: the entertainment factor for the listeners at home. So texels,

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Speaker 6: they are big units and not as big some of

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Speaker 6: the other such we're going to talk about. They're thick

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Speaker 6: that they're mostly like a meat sheep lean meat. Yeah, ugly,

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Speaker 6: they're kind of wide face and kind of the big

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Speaker 6: dominating eyebrows.

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Speaker 2: They kind of look like someone.

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Speaker 3: Stuck stuck like a sheep pat on a dog.

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Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, they're actually nice sheet They're not

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Speaker 6: like we had textles growing up. There is mostly a

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Speaker 6: meat sheep with a bit of wool. Your next one

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Speaker 6: might be a border leicester, sometimes called a blue leicester.

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Speaker 6: They're very recognizable that like the blue speckling on their

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Speaker 6: face and then a big Roman nose I suppose like

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Speaker 6: a domed nose.

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Speaker 2: They got a big, big round one.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, a big, big snoot on them. So that's a

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Speaker 6: very recognizable sheep. They again like a meat and wool

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Speaker 6: sheet with slightly probably more desirable wool than texels. They're

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Speaker 6: also very good mother, so that's something you're looking at

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Speaker 6: with sheep. Rais is it going to raise it's young?

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Speaker 6: Is it going to stick around? Look after a boarder lester?

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Speaker 6: It's good for that, which is why they use in

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Speaker 6: those mules that I spoke about. It's one of the

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Speaker 6: reasons that you cross breathed them with a hill sheep

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Speaker 6: to make them more hearty. Right, And this one is

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Speaker 6: a clean l l e y n because you probably

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Speaker 6: would have got that spelling organically. That that's a Welsh

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Speaker 6: word and I'm probably mispronouncing it, but it's that's a

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Speaker 6: it's a meat sheep. It's it's also got desirable. Well,

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Speaker 6: it's also a good mother. They are big, They're like

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Speaker 6: they're big units. My mom had those. And so when

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Speaker 6: one of the things you're going to have to do

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Speaker 6: when you have your sheep is you're going to have

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Speaker 6: to clip their little feet. Other words, they grow too long,

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Speaker 6: just like just like you have to clip your own fingernails, right,

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Speaker 6: otherwise you need to do that. So and there's a

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Speaker 6: way to do it by sort of grabbing the front

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Speaker 6: leg and sort of dropping your knee a little bit.

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Speaker 6: Like you're you're not just superlexing the sheep.

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Speaker 2: It's a light sup lex.

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Speaker 3: When you originally talking about hafting, I assumed it was

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Speaker 3: something to do with picking the sheep up for some reason.

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Speaker 4: The newer term is r kao ing your sheep. Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 4: So this lean sheep looks like like to me, to me,

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Speaker 4: the lean sheet, is it lean clean?

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Speaker 2: Clean?

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Speaker 6: Mm hmmm yeah, that double L sounding. Well, she's it

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Speaker 6: comes at you hard.

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Speaker 4: It's interesting clean. Well, either way, this sheep to me

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Speaker 4: looks like standard sheep. You're like run of the mill sheep.

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Speaker 4: When I google sheep, this is what I think of.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that's what once I was sending you some pictures

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Speaker 6: of yesterday. Sometimes I'll send pictures of sheep to the

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Speaker 6: to the group chat just for the increase in the

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Speaker 6: general's well being.

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Speaker 5: That's the only time I like the group chat.

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Speaker 6: I'm kidding, it's true. Keep it up for you, just

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Speaker 6: just for using I will keep keeping sheep content coming.

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Speaker 6: You got the Jacob sheep, we'll be spoken about, right,

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Speaker 6: So that's more of a park sheep.

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Speaker 2: It's a rare breed.

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Speaker 6: So if you're interested in like a rare breed, it's

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Speaker 6: a good thing to do, right. If you're just a

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Speaker 6: person who's like, yeah, it'd be cool to have some sheep,

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Speaker 6: I have some pasture. Maybe you want them on a

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Speaker 6: horse field, because horses will mess up the grass on

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Speaker 6: their own. Horses will will shift in an area and

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Speaker 6: that will kind of sour the grass, and horses will

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Speaker 6: then not eat that grass. Horses are not really you know,

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Speaker 6: great ship where they eat. On the other hand, yeah,

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Speaker 6: the horse knows, the sheep doesn't. So sometimes you have

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Speaker 6: a few sheep with horses. They can be companions as well.

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Speaker 6: They can be nice companions.

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Speaker 9: You know.

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Speaker 6: That's where the phrase get you know, the phrase gets

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Speaker 6: your goat. Something gets your goat. Oh yeah, yeah, that's

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Speaker 6: where it comes from. Keeping a goat with a horse

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Speaker 6: to keep it company.

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Speaker 2: Nice is a sheep of goat.

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Speaker 6: No different, different animals similar similar. I'm sure there's some

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Speaker 6: kind of genus species thing. I don't understand.

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Speaker 10: There maybe a different species somewhere. Yeah, they're they're Yeah,

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Speaker 10: they're not a million miles apart. So you've got doorpers

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Speaker 10: I think that's a cross between of a Dorset and

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Speaker 10: a Persian. They're they're raised for mutton, so that's if

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Speaker 10: you're looking for your mutton seeing that's where that's where

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Speaker 10: you get that. They have multiple lambs a year, so

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Speaker 10: some of these sheep will have can land more than

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Speaker 10: once a year. Herdwick is a good hill breed. They're

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Speaker 10: a very hearty. A lot of those up around my

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Speaker 10: dad where my dad lives. Like I said, there are

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Speaker 10: some rare breeds.

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Speaker 6: Which if you're interested in like having rare breed sheep

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Speaker 6: just to preserve like a type of sheep, because obviously,

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Speaker 6: like the more heritage breeds are not as commercially viable,

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Speaker 6: so sometimes they get lost, right because they don't give

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Speaker 6: you a better same return on investment. So if you're

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Speaker 6: interested in having sheep just because it's cool and it

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Speaker 6: looks funky, the rare breed survival trust is a place

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Speaker 6: to like, look, I used to enjoy going there as

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Speaker 6: a kid and seeing different sheep and learning about But.

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Speaker 5: That's not a good reason to get a sheep.

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Speaker 6: But if you decide you want to have sheep anyway, right,

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Speaker 6: let's say you're like, I don't know when a casts dispersion.

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Speaker 6: So it's going to say a horsey person, a person

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Speaker 6: who owns horses, you know, like if that is your thing,

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Speaker 6: and you yeah, a horse person, yeah, like a centaur

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Speaker 6: if you're a centauri. Yeah, if you are half horse,

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Speaker 6: then you know you want to you want to have

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Speaker 6: sheep maybe to check to improve your pasture or to

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Speaker 6: not let the horses syr up or the grass. Then

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Speaker 6: why not?

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Speaker 8: Right?

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Speaker 6: Like why not? Because like if you get a if

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Speaker 6: you get a meat sheep, it's gonna be bigger, it's

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Speaker 6: gonna be more work. If you get a very sheet

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Speaker 6: that a lot of wool, you're gonna have to share

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Speaker 6: that a lot. So maybe you just want a sheep

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Speaker 6: that can kind of cruise and be by yourself, then

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Speaker 6: you know why not? Yeah, So we're going to talk

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Speaker 6: very leafily about what to do when you buy a sheep,

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Speaker 6: and then we're going to pivot to some other things

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Speaker 6: that you can buy which are not as rewarding as sheep. Yeah,

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Speaker 6: which is which is? That's an ad break that will

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Speaker 6: do after that downal thanks understood.

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Speaker 4: I miss I missed that part. Afterwards I was like, wait, no, James,

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Speaker 4: don't move on quite yet. I understand now, very well.

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Speaker 6: Done, thank you, Daniel. So when you're buying sheep, I

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Speaker 6: think probably what you want to do is buy some

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Speaker 6: yews that have already been bred, or a couple of

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Speaker 6: yews with twins that they're a flock animal, right like sheep.

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Speaker 6: They don't want to be on their own, So you

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Speaker 6: don't just go and buy like one sheep and be like, yeah,

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Speaker 6: I've got a sheep. Now that's not very nice. That's

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Speaker 6: not that they'll be insecure and anxious, so they like

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Speaker 6: to be with other sheep. So I think the way

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Speaker 6: we used to do it when I was a kid

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Speaker 6: was to get orphan lambs and so like that the

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Speaker 6: mother either rejects the lamb or she dies giving birth

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Speaker 6: right well, which can happen. And we used to them

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Speaker 6: bottle feed those lambs and like you know, when they're

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Speaker 6: very little, if you go out on the hill, do

400
00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:01,520
Speaker 6: people have Argus in America. Sorry, you're looking at no, okay,

401
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,960
Speaker 6: Like it's a type of oven that like it's always on,

402
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:09,920
Speaker 6: it's a range cooker. Oh no, people, people, Okay, yeah,

403
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Speaker 6: I can remember, like where I don't know.

404
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:16,760
Speaker 5: What sheep are. If you want me to know whatever

405
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Speaker 5: the fuck you're talking about.

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Speaker 6: You know, it's good. It's so much learning. It's it's

407
00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,960
Speaker 6: type of oven that like it's in old houses and

408
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Speaker 6: also rich people's houses. Now it's become like a training thing.

409
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,040
Speaker 6: But like way back in the day, I remember like

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Speaker 6: putting lambs in the bottom oven, which is like warm,

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Speaker 6: but like not cooking warm, just like like warm warm

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Speaker 6: when they were very little and they need to warm up.

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Speaker 6: So with often lambs, right, you're going to bottle feed them.

414
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Speaker 6: You're going to do the stuff that their mother does

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Speaker 6: for them. So that's a lot of work, but you know,

416
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Speaker 6: it's a way to get going. But they are more

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Speaker 6: fragile when they're young. So what it was suggest is

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Speaker 6: buying a couple of yews that have been bred and

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Speaker 6: then you just want to either like if you go

420
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Speaker 6: locally to somewhere, then you'll you'll know this is a

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Speaker 6: type of sheep that can survive and the type of

422
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:06,960
Speaker 6: pasture that's near you. This is the type of sheep

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Speaker 6: that can survive in the climate that you have with

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Speaker 6: the food sort of available where you are, So that's

425
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:13,560
Speaker 6: probably a good thing. And then you just want to

426
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Speaker 6: check that the sheep has some weight on it, right,

427
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Speaker 6: and you want to check its teeth of course, like

428
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Speaker 6: any livestock, you want to be checking the teeth when

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Speaker 6: you're buying them. And then a thing I've run into.

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Speaker 3: What do you sorry, what are you looking for on

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00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:26,919
Speaker 3: the teeth.

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Speaker 6: If they're all fucked up like that sheep is not healthy, right,

433
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:34,359
Speaker 6: like receding gums or like kind of if it's much older,

434
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,640
Speaker 6: that's you can tell. You can normally age an animal

435
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:38,320
Speaker 6: by looking at its teeth, right, like if you find

436
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,800
Speaker 6: a if you find the remains of an animal, to

437
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,240
Speaker 6: one way to see the aig of it. So yeah,

438
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 6: you go to the auction, right, and you don't want

439
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,600
Speaker 6: to check the vaccine status as well. I've only really

440
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,560
Speaker 6: come across this in the United States recently. Some people

441
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,960
Speaker 6: will rage posting on the place I go to to

442
00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,480
Speaker 6: buy chickens because it didn't want to buy vaccinated pickens,

443
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:06,320
Speaker 6: which is just h Yeah, because Bill Gates wants to

444
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:08,520
Speaker 6: know what your chicken is thinking, right, which is why

445
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:13,720
Speaker 6: he micro chips. Yeah, absolute pricks. Yeah, if you don't

446
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:15,359
Speaker 6: want to buy back. So I don't know if you're

447
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 6: listening to the show that this is not a concern

448
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,200
Speaker 6: of ours. I don't think, but yeah, check the vaccine

449
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,639
Speaker 6: statu is just in case you got some who are

450
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,360
Speaker 6: trying to sell you some sheep which are more likely

451
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:28,840
Speaker 6: to get sick. So yeah, would would if you I

452
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:30,760
Speaker 6: can't come up with and I don't know if you

453
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 6: want to buy something that's no use to you and

454
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:37,679
Speaker 6: won't give you joy instead of sheep. Here are some adverts. Okay,

455
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 6: so we're back and we're still talking about sheep, probably

456
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 6: will be for quite some times from page one. So

457
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,840
Speaker 6: sheep are actually they're quite clever. Sheep can recognize human faces.

458
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 6: They'll know who you are. I've definitely definitely known that,

459
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 6: Like especially the sheep that we bottle fed from when

460
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,119
Speaker 6: they were babies, right, they definitely knew who we were

461
00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,920
Speaker 6: and they could be very friendly. Yeah, it's nice, it's no.

462
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:01,159
Speaker 6: It will come up to you and they'll sort of

463
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,919
Speaker 6: nuzzle you and you can rub them. Our sheep were polled.

464
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 6: That's another thing to think about when you're getting a sheep. Right,

465
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,440
Speaker 6: a pole sheep, it doesn't have horns where it's some

466
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 6: people have horns. Some people have more horns. So yeah,

467
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 6: they can recognize your faces. They can learn names, so

468
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 6: they have a name. They can learn their name. They

469
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,879
Speaker 6: also like knows it they're sheep, so like, I know,

470
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 6: my mum would just go out and go look sheep

471
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,960
Speaker 6: and then she'd feed them and they'd come. So you're thinking,

472
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 6: you know, they've got a positive reinforcement mechanism. You can

473
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 6: train sheep to go on a lead. So another reason

474
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 6: you might want to get sheep is you're getting into

475
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,680
Speaker 6: into showing. Right, a nice thing to do if you

476
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:44,439
Speaker 6: you know a strange like me. I suppose it's go

477
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,480
Speaker 6: to like an agricultural show and look at different types

478
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 6: of sheep. I like to do that. They can be

479
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 6: really expensive now because it's also the County Fair and

480
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 6: so like people are going in to eat like deep

481
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:58,360
Speaker 6: fried stuff, which doesn't interest me as much. But if

482
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 6: you want to go and see it, yeah, yeah, we

483
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 6: could go together down I'll get.

484
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,639
Speaker 2: A super sailor at the end, be like, how is

485
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 2: your day?

486
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:11,679
Speaker 6: You won't be saddled with regret if you look at

487
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 6: sheep and indigestion. So yeah, consider yeah, but it's nice

488
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 6: to go right, see see the breeds that are popular

489
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 6: in your area, see different types of sheep and what

490
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 6: people will do. At least I've never been to it,

491
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,639
Speaker 6: like an actual sort of showing sheep. I'll just go

492
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:28,880
Speaker 6: to the to the San Diego County Fair and look

493
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 6: at the animals. But I've not been to a show

494
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 6: where you walk around with them in the US. But

495
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 6: I used to do that when I was a kid.

496
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 6: I think of, you know, go to the village show

497
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 6: or whatever and take the sheep and walk it around

498
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 6: and then they'll judge your sheep right if it's up

499
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 6: to the breed standards or what have you. So yeah,

500
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 6: they can go on a lead they like more of

501
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,120
Speaker 6: like a halter look around the nose, so not not

502
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 6: like a collar. So that's the thing that you can

503
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:53,919
Speaker 6: do that's that interest you. If you want to get

504
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 6: into sheep showing. If that's the case, you're going to

505
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 6: want to get like a pedigree sheep right and really

506
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 6: get it to it. You're going to drop some money.

507
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:05,639
Speaker 6: It's not really like I was never a very serious

508
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 6: sheep show, to be clear, It's just a thing for

509
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 6: your child to do when you go up in a

510
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 6: rural area. They like I said, they like to be

511
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 6: together in groups. They're pretty docile. Like sheep an't going

512
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 6: to fight you. It's definitely, definitely like when I was

513
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:21,360
Speaker 6: at University of stuff, friends would come home and they'd

514
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 6: be very scared of the sheep. There's no reason to

515
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 6: be scared of sheep. I don't think I've ever heard

516
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 6: of anyone being hurt by a sheep. Yeah, I mean what,

517
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,400
Speaker 6: they're going to come at you a bit. Sometimes they're

518
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 6: angry or whatever, but like it's a sheep, Like it's fine,

519
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 6: you know, like I would back you serene if it

520
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 6: came to it. Yeah, Like yes, And their horns are

521
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 6: mostly like not pointed towards you. I have been gored

522
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:55,159
Speaker 6: by a bolt right, like I've experienced like livestock related injury.

523
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:57,640
Speaker 2: Sheep is definitely on the list of animals I'm pretty

524
00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 2: sure I could take.

525
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, sure, this.

526
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 5: Next fact is fascinating to me. Can we get to

527
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 5: this fact?

528
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 8: Yeah?

529
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,880
Speaker 6: Sure, So definitely if you're thinking breeding getting rams, about

530
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 6: like eight percent are going to be gay It's just

531
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 6: a thing that's going to happen, right, getty sheep sheep? Yeah, yeah,

532
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 6: you wait till we get to the next do one.

533
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 6: Beres just a thing, right, You're going to get a

534
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 6: sheep that's gay. It's it's a natural part of the

535
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 6: diversity of any species. Kind of definitely know people who

536
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 6: just spent a lot of money on pedigree rams and

537
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,479
Speaker 6: they've turned out to be gay. It's what it is, right, Like,

538
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 6: I love that gets me about this weird, stupid American.

539
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 6: It's not just an American thing, but it's like, oh,

540
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 6: it's not natural whatever. Like I know, anyone who's worked

541
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 6: with livestock in their life, well for a number of

542
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 6: years will tell you that they've come across a gay

543
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,640
Speaker 6: sheep or cow or what have you. Some you're also

544
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 6: going to get. Sometimes some sheep are called free Martins.

545
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 6: It's a trans mask sheep for the most part. It

546
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 6: actually has some biological diferences. So like, yeah, what it

547
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 6: is is is a female that's been accompanied so like

548
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 6: they're twins or triplets or quads sometimes that has been

549
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 6: accompanied by male featurists in utero, so they behave in

550
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:20,880
Speaker 6: a masculine way and they might lack functioning ovaries. Yeah,

551
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 6: you're going to get those two right there, So they're

552
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 6: going to be a bit more agro like a ram

553
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 6: about you and stuff. But it's just to think is

554
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 6: part of natural diversity in species. You're going to see it.

555
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 6: You know, you might have a gay sheep. Lucky you, right,

556
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 6: you know, cherish it, take it, you know, be nice

557
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 6: to it. So white fleeces, right, generally we think of sheep,

558
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 6: but Dana was saying, you have to think of a

559
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,679
Speaker 6: white fleece. That's that wild cheap are often brown, right,

560
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 6: it's being white. It's not a great camouflage trait. So

561
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 6: when we see a when we see a white sheep,

562
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:53,360
Speaker 6: that's because it's generally been selected.

563
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 8: Right.

564
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 6: So when you look at the Jacob sheep, they were bibaled, right,

565
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 6: they had bits of brown on them on the white fleece.

566
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 6: Being white have a pispid trait, so it's for very quickly.

567
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 6: And then if you if you're looking at the wall

568
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 6: of a sheet, you want to consider you want fine

569
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 6: medium of course, wool, long wool sheep. Right, if you

570
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 6: look up sheep with long walls. Some amazing reeds out there,

571
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 6: those are mostly for breeding to get more desirable wall

572
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 6: characteristics like long wool sheep. It's going to be quite

573
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 6: hard to look after that sheep. Right stop, it's wall

574
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 6: getting matt in stuff. So now we're going to get

575
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:30,360
Speaker 6: it to fencing. It's an important topic. So you want

576
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 6: your fencing to be about chest high. Obviously, it depends

577
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 6: on your height, like if you're a smaller person a

578
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 6: bit higher or whatever. But like we were, generally use post

579
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 6: and rail fencing. You don't see that as much in

580
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 6: the US, but it names pretty self explanatory. Right, Bang

581
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 6: in a post rail across the middle. Bang in a

582
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 6: post rail across the middle. And then you're going to

583
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 6: want some netting you don't have to use like with chickens,

584
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 6: we talked about using construction netting right, like very thin

585
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 6: wire just so like things like snakes and rats don't

586
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 6: get in with cheap you need that. The you can

587
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 6: go with a wider mesh four or five inches across

588
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 6: and that's going to be cheaper for you as you're

589
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 6: building the fence. You can also use electric fences and

590
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 6: you can use those to rotate the pasture, which is

591
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 6: a good idea. So the sheep kind of graze one area,

592
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 6: then you move them across to another area. That area recovers.

593
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 6: You move the sheep to the next area, they graze

594
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 6: that area where the other areas recover. Okay, you learned

595
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 6: about this in the school, surely, right, yeah.

596
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, surely.

597
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 4: I'm curious. How does the electric fencing do that? Are

598
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 4: you constantly moving it? And is that just like when

599
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 4: the sheep touch it, they're like, oh, not that way

600
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 4: and go back like.

601
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 6: Oh okay, well they're not thick. They'll touch it once and

602
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 6: then they won't go here maybe twice and oh yeah, no, precisely,

603
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 6: but so how is it doing that? It's so that

604
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 6: the electric fences are like plastic posts that you stick

605
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 6: in the ground and then it has a metal spike

606
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 6: on the end, and then it's got this it's about

607
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 6: that wide, about inch wide. It's it's a ribbon with

608
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 6: little metal pits in it, and you the post has

609
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 6: a way of securing that ribbon to it so you

610
00:29:57,960 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 6: can move that fencing around.

611
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 2: Okay, cool.

612
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 4: So so the reason I mean it being electrified is

613
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 4: kind of like secondary. It's mostly that it's a movable

614
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 4: fence post. That's why you yeah, crazing purposes.

615
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, it doesn't have the same the same structure as

616
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 6: a normal fence, so it has gaps which a sheet

617
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 6: probably could slip through if it was just whirre. Because

618
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 6: it's electric, it's not going to try and nuzzle its

619
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 6: way through because it's going to get shot. So if

620
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 6: you're using electric fence, just like you know, the classic

621
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 6: way to tell of it's on, right, it is you

622
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 6: pick up a piece of grass and then you just

623
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 6: touch the fence with the grass. Because the grass is

624
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 6: a poor conductor, you're going to feel a little.

625
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 2: Bit of a shock trolling right now.

626
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 6: No real, that's what you do. Like, yeah, no, you

627
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 6: touch it with a piece of grass, and that's gonna

628
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 6: you're going to get like a slight like tingle, but

629
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 6: you're not going to get a full whack. Growing up,

630
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 6: the electric fences all over the place, right, I've run

631
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 6: into them when I was a kid and taken a

632
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 6: whack or like you know, the post have a big

633
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 6: spike on the end, so that's very fun to throw

634
00:30:55,880 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 6: at your friends, you know, lasting in But yeah, electric

635
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 6: fancy gives handy. You just took it up to a

636
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 6: car battery basically, so you like, yeah, no, it's a

637
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 6: it's a good way to segment your field. You have

638
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 6: one field, you know, if you're not rotating the sheep.

639
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 6: Did you alreally not learn about field rotation? Sorry, I'm

640
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 6: constantly amazed by the things that I did in school

641
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 6: that Americans don't do, not at.

642
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 4: All agriculture in any capacity. Yeah, there was no agriculture training.

643
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 4: I mean at least way.

644
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 5: Far I saw. It was unlike the tub of butter.

645
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, like that's literally what the think.

646
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 3: I think I grew up closer than YouTube, which I

647
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 3: had a corn fi in my backyard and they were Okay,

648
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 3: we didn't have agricultural education yet like my school, but

649
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 3: like there were schools so like I went to to

650
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 3: do like play chess classic out I was, I was

651
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 3: a nerd, but like there were lots of schools that

652
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 3: like did stuff like that because they were like war

653
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 3: Royal Ports of Illinois, So that is a thing here.

654
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 3: I think it's just you didn't go up.

655
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 2: In the agricultural.

656
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 6: I think I learned it in the context of the

657
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 6: enclosure of the commons in the fore field rotation and

658
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 6: like using lagoons to fix nitrogen in the soil. Again

659
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 6: blank hollige, Okay, okay, well, yeah, different strokes for different folks.

660
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 6: You know me on Twitter dot com. If you learned

661
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 6: about lagoomes in school.

662
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 4: So too would have preferred to learn about that, just

663
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 4: to be clear, like algebra two, forget it.

664
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 2: I would much rather learn aboutlagoons.

665
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 6: Whenever you use algebra, not don someone else is using it.

666
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 6: But you know you, Yeah, think of what you could

667
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 6: be doing with nitrogen right now, if you if you

668
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 6: were growing some peas, what if incredible things? Yeah, So

669
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 6: with your sheep, depending on the breed, you're going to

670
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 6: need shelter, right, So that shelter could be something like

671
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 6: a cops a little cops of trees. That's a small

672
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 6: it's big, smaller than a wood.

673
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 2: It is a copse.

674
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 6: So you're going to need a decent amount of trees

675
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,959
Speaker 6: for shelter. Some will need more shelter than others, right,

676
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 6: depending on how hardy they are. Some of them will

677
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 6: want to lamb inside and some of them are able

678
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 6: to lamb outside. That they all will need some shelter

679
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 6: and foul weather. Right. You'll see that they're very good

680
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 6: at like knowing where to shelter. But then you've got

681
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,239
Speaker 6: to you can't leave them, out, like when I'm in

682
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 6: agricultural states in America where these giant prairies, you know

683
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 6: that you don't have hedgerows in the same way that

684
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 6: we did where I grew up. Then you if you

685
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 6: are there and you're trying to have some sheep, you're

686
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 6: going to need to build a little shelter for them.

687
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 2: That's a question about the shelter. Yeah, yeah, it's.

688
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 4: What's the shape of the shelter? Is it kind of

689
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 4: like is it like a house? Is it more like barn.

690
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 6: Like's depending on the breed. No, not like barn. You

691
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 6: have a bard to bring them in. Like so we

692
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,239
Speaker 6: used to lamb inside, right, and then you just use

693
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 6: palette to divide it up, and the palettes you put

694
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 6: each of you in there with her lamb.

695
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 4: And we'll get onto Thats are barnes jokers, not going

696
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 4: to happen.

697
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 6: Sorry, Daniel, I'll let you down again that it's not

698
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 6: on you. But yeah, you'll see all kinds of things.

699
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 6: You'll see thanks, you'll see it like people just put

700
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:18,799
Speaker 6: a little stone shelters. You know, if you have a

701
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,439
Speaker 6: if you have a prevailing wind that like rips through

702
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 6: and it's cold wind, then you know you might want

703
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:26,919
Speaker 6: to build something just to shelter them from that prevailing wind.

704
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 6: But they just you know, if it's like a big

705
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 6: undifferentiated prairie. And especially lambs, right, they're more fragile. They're younger,

706
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 6: and sometimes you'll see the lambs wearing the little coats

707
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 6: and little little jackets that they can wear. Yeah, you

708
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 6: can google that, just like google lamps, orange jacket. You

709
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 6: can get these little little plastic jackets for them. But

710
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 6: that you do, you do need to be cautious with

711
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 6: lambs when they're young. Sometimes, like I said, you'll have

712
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 6: the midside thing with sheep regarding feeding is that they

713
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 6: are ruminants. Do we know what rumin animals are?

714
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 8: No?

715
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 6: Yes, massively failed by your education.

716
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 2: And it's a.

717
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 6: Ruminant. It chooses the cud. So when it eats the food, right,

718
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 6: it goes to the roomen and then it holds the food.

719
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 6: The food is regurgit.

720
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 4: What are the cow It has like multiple stomachs yes, yeah, yeah,

721
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 4: like the first stomach yeah, so the rooman's a big stomach, right,

722
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 4: and it's in there that it's like a storage space really,

723
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 4: So the food goes in their chills for a bit

724
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 4: and then it's regurgitated, chewed back up and then re swallowed.

725
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,359
Speaker 2: And that is the cud that that process is called

726
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 2: chewing the cud. Chewing the cud, that is the right.

727
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 4: So is that entire process chewing the cud like it

728
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 4: going into the ruminant and then being regurgitated, or is

729
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 4: it strictly just the chewing that happened before they eat

730
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 4: it again.

731
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 6: It's a chewing that happens when they eat it again. Right,

732
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 6: So like the first eating, it's just eating. The second

733
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 6: eating she reads having a physical reaction.

734
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 2: It is hardly. It's extremely harly.

735
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 6: That's how they get the most out of like this

736
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 6: relatively lean pasture. Right, it's a very clever adaption. Yeah,

737
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 6: so yeah, that's how that's how sheep eat. So that

738
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,919
Speaker 6: means that they need to have access to pasture. They

739
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 6: also need lots of water. So again, if you're in

740
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 6: like a desert place, I should ask Navaho folks. I

741
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 6: know Navaho folks, I should ask them how they do

742
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 6: with their tury sheep because it's not a densely watered

743
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 6: place there, but generally that they need access to water.

744
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 6: I'm sure they have places where they have good access

745
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 6: to water and then you, like I said, you do

746
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 6: want to rotate them around. Right, You can feed them,

747
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 6: you can supplement with like hay or halage or silage

748
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,479
Speaker 6: stuff like that, but you shouldn't really, like you can't

749
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 6: keep your feet sheep in a place where there's no pasture. Really,

750
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 6: you don't want to be feeding them allyet. They need

751
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 6: varied pasture right with different things, you know, clovers and

752
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 6: grasses and the stuff that's poisonous for them, so that

753
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 6: there are different weeds sort of poisonous for them. You're

754
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 6: just going to want to It depends where you live, right,

755
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,360
Speaker 6: you're listening to this in the UK. It's different to

756
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 6: North America, probably different to South America. So you'll want

757
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 6: to check that out again. When you're buying a sheep,

758
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 6: you can ask these kind of questions and go ahead

759
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 6: and pull those out so so you can you can

760
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 6: feed them grain. But you really only want to do

761
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 6: that sort of durin or just before lambing. It can

762
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 6: lead to overfeeding. It's too rich for them, right, Like

763
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 6: they're designed with this ruminant system to you know, have

764
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 6: these green leafy things. People can use bagged feeds too.

765
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 6: You know, again, you don't want to rely on those

766
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 6: whole time. They're expensive. Don't use cow food like bagged

767
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 6: cattle food. It's not going to work for sheep. And

768
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 6: they need like a mineral lick too, So you're like,

769
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 6: I'm sure you're all familiar with salt licks. Yeah, that's yeah,

770
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 6: that's it's a similar thing, right, they'll just come up

771
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 6: and lick that. They know when they need the salt

772
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 6: or the minerals or do they just they know, so

773
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 6: they'll just come come and look it. So you just

774
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,399
Speaker 6: put that out in the field. It's pretty chill, don't

775
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 6: let So A big problem we had was like we

776
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 6: had some sheep in the field next to our house,

777
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 6: and they were our sheep, there was someone else's sheep,

778
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 6: but like forever getting into the garden, mainly because I'm

779
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 6: terrible at closing gates and doors, and so they would

780
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:25,240
Speaker 6: get into the garden. You do want to be careful.

781
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 6: They will go ham like it is the time of

782
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 6: their lives when they get in your garden, and they

783
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 6: can eat all your plants. But you do want to

784
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 6: watch out for things like rhododendron, which can be dangerous

785
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 6: to them and they can be poisonous. So if you've

786
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 6: got stuff in your garden. Either don't have stuff as

787
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 6: poisonous to sheep or or be aware, you know, if

788
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 6: they're getting in there, head to the rhododendrons. Some head

789
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 6: them off at the past. Sharene would you would you

790
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 6: like to insert your Well.

791
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:57,399
Speaker 5: You're just the shepherd and we are the herd following you.

792
00:38:58,360 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 7: And so.

793
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 5: To everyone that wants to be a sheep, listen to

794
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 5: these ads.

795
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 6: We're back my Sheep and Unparalleled. Yeah we need Dan

796
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,280
Speaker 6: a little more podcast. It's kind of energy is magical.

797
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 6: So yeah, shearing right, sharing sheep a very important part

798
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,439
Speaker 6: of having sheep. So this can be hard to mask.

799
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 6: If you're trying to get the wool off in like

800
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:31,320
Speaker 6: a full fleece, which is ideally how you want to

801
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 6: do it, right, you don't. You're not just like it's

802
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 6: not like when you go to the barbers, you know,

803
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 6: and they just go at you and his hair on

804
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 6: the floor. You're looking to take it off as a

805
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 6: complete fleece, and there's a technique to that. It's you're

806
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:44,319
Speaker 6: just not going to fucking get it straight away, like

807
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 6: you're going to have to learn or you're going to

808
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 6: have to pay someone to do it. I don't really

809
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 6: know how that works in America again because like there's

810
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 6: not such a density of sheep, so maybe that's not

811
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 6: someone who does it. And lots of this stuff are

812
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 6: getting your use ultrasounded when they're pregnant. I'm not sure

813
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,760
Speaker 6: how you go about that in and of affordable manner

814
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:02,759
Speaker 6: in the United States. Like if you have a large

815
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 6: animal vet, you can ask them, but you do want

816
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 6: to do that right to check that how many lambs

817
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:12,959
Speaker 6: you've got and stuff, of course, But yeah, so if

818
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:14,719
Speaker 6: I guess you're just going to have to learn or

819
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 6: give it a try. Like as long as you're not

820
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 6: hurting the sheep, if you're taking it off in clumps,

821
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 6: I suppose it's not that bad. Just you know, if

822
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,240
Speaker 6: you don't want to be nipping and hurting the sheep

823
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 6: itself when you're shearing, right, And it's just like if

824
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 6: you if you're a person who shaves or you know,

825
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 6: cuts her own hair or what have, you know, it's

826
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 6: not pleasant if you nick the skin.

827
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:36,399
Speaker 5: Yeah, so sheep need to get rid of the hair. Yes,

828
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 5: then if we did it exist, how would they do that?

829
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 6: Well, we wouldn't have bred them selectively to have such

830
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,919
Speaker 6: dents and long fleeces if we didn't exist. So there

831
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 6: are hair sheep which which have hair instead of wool,

832
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 6: and those sheep don't need to don't need to be shorn,

833
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 6: but because for centuries we've bred them to be woolier,

834
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 6: because we like the wool they're now we have, we've

835
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:01,880
Speaker 6: made our bed and we have to lie in it,

836
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 6: right like we the sheep depend on us, and we

837
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 6: depend on the sheep. It's like it's like the Yin

838
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 6: and yang and you know of sheep husband.

839
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,720
Speaker 4: That we created without their permission, yea, yea, yes, yeah,

840
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,919
Speaker 4: the sheep sheep that has been forced upon there.

841
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, maybe that's it's not a not a consensual relationship.

842
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 6: So yeah, that what happens here. And if you don't

843
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 6: share them, and some some you'll need to do twice

844
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 6: a year, some once a year, some you worn't at all.

845
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 6: If the hair sheet right, but they'll get like matted walls,

846
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 6: so like the like the who and other things will

847
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 6: like just if you like, if you don't wash your

848
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:40,839
Speaker 6: hair for a long time, you know, it gets kind

849
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 6: of knotted and matted, got it?

850
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 5: Got it?

851
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:43,800
Speaker 2: Yeah?

852
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 6: Yeah? So that and also they can get over heat,

853
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 6: say no more to go further.

854
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, that makes sense though, that makes sense.

855
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,359
Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't know how you sell well in the USA. Uh,

856
00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 6: you know, just get on Etsy and do something with

857
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 6: it if you want to sell. I suppose, you know,

858
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,399
Speaker 6: learn to learn to spin to get a spinning wheel,

859
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 6: you learn to card card the wool and then spin

860
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 6: it and then knit it and then sell it. I

861
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 6: suppose it will keep things for yourself. It'd be fun,

862
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:13,359
Speaker 6: you know if you have free time.

863
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:14,840
Speaker 2: What is carding?

864
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's when you're like like taking the wool and

865
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 6: like like combing it. Uh huh, like pulling it. I'm

866
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 6: not superaviny with stuff. I remember again. See it's just

867
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 6: a different world, isn't it. See we would go to

868
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 6: like the Black Country Museum when I was a kid

869
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:38,839
Speaker 6: in school. Not a racial thing, it's just a uh

870
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,839
Speaker 6: it's it's a part of it's part of Britain where

871
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 6: there was a lot of industry. And one of the

872
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 6: things I would do was like, oh, this is how

873
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,720
Speaker 6: people used to do wool, you know, like the spinning

874
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 6: Jenny and like before that, like in cottage industry when

875
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 6: people would make it a home, or like when you

876
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 6: go to the Rabberry Survival trust, and I think I

877
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 6: bet they'll let you do some spinning or cutting when

878
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 6: you're going there.

879
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 2: I got a quick explanation for you. I got a

880
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 2: quick explanation for you.

881
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 4: So if for those folks at home who have hairy animals,

882
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 4: you know those kind of like brushes that have fine

883
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 4: little metal bristles on them, and you're brushing, you just

884
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 4: take off like a huge clump of hair. Now that

885
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 4: made you take a imagine you take a fresh piece

886
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 4: of wool straight off of the sheep and you put

887
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,320
Speaker 4: it on there, and then you just kind of tease

888
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:30,320
Speaker 4: it out to form it into what looks more like

889
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,799
Speaker 4: like raw wool that you're used to as opposed to

890
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 4: looking like it was just taking off a sheep. You're

891
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 4: turning into the raw wall that will then be spun.

892
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 4: I'm looking at it right now, and it looks absolutely exhausting.

893
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 8: Yes.

894
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:45,839
Speaker 2: Fun, sorry, yes, fun yeah?

895
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 6: Fun? Good thing to do, you know, like get Once

896
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 6: Twitter inevitably collapses, we can return with a v to

897
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:55,240
Speaker 6: tradition and do this sort of stuff instead.

898
00:43:56,080 --> 00:44:00,040
Speaker 2: There, you know, yeah, I'm sure texting everybody.

899
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 6: Video male return to tradition. People already do it. It's

900
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 6: nice for your hands it's very nice for your hands

901
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 6: just generally handling because they have lanolin. Right, Lanelin this

902
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 6: kind of natural. I think it's like a soap thing

903
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,760
Speaker 6: like it makes lathering, but it's very good for softening

904
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 6: your skin. So you'll see you'll notice it's nice for

905
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 6: your hands when you're handling the sheep, right, you'll notice

906
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 6: that's nice hand feeling. It's not expensive like hand cream.

907
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 6: You're going to have to make sure that you train

908
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 6: your sheep's hooves. So depending on your size and the

909
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 6: sheep size and yeah, and your sort of skill handling sheep,

910
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 6: you might want to get a sheep flipper. We got

911
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:41,359
Speaker 6: one from my mum a couple of years ago. It's

912
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 6: just a device that helps you turn the sheep so

913
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 6: that you can clip its hooves instead of just getting

914
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 6: in there with the knee. And there's a way to

915
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 6: do it, and a lot of the stuff you can

916
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,320
Speaker 6: learn on YouTube, like I've I checked before this, and

917
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 6: there's definitely videos on how to turn them over and

918
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 6: klip the hoofs. So yeah, you you can give it

919
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 6: a try. That doesn't work, you can get a sheet flipper.

920
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:06,720
Speaker 6: You you sort of yeah, you sort to drop your kneeto

921
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:07,399
Speaker 6: it and turn it over.

922
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,800
Speaker 3: I'm so happy that there is an advice that exists

923
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:16,359
Speaker 3: called the sheep flipper. This has made my day measurably better.

924
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,839
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll send you some videos. There's

925
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 6: some good videos of me trying to turn my mum's

926
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:26,400
Speaker 6: sheep like so we can click their hooves and it

927
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 6: was like a wet and slippery and me just fetching

928
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 6: myself on my ass into dead and the sheep just

929
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 6: like making a bid for freedom. So yeah, you watch

930
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:36,759
Speaker 6: a couple of videos. You can work it out and

931
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 6: if it doesn't work for you can get a seat

932
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 6: sheet flipper. You're going to have to do things like

933
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 6: dipping and deworming your sheep too. It's your the wormer.

934
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 6: You just put in their mouth. It's like a It

935
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 6: goes in the mouth and you squeeze. It looks a

936
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 6: bit like a gun, I suppose, or like a it's

937
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 6: like a little tiny pipe, like maybe a quarter of

938
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 6: an inch size. You're pinky and it goes in and

939
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,080
Speaker 6: you press the thing and it dispenses a dough. It

940
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 6: kind of gets it behind their tongue, so don't spit

941
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:03,400
Speaker 6: it out. Dispensed it's a bit of wormer.

942
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 4: Gun was the perfect word to use for my American

943
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:07,879
Speaker 4: ied brain. I'm totally yeah.

944
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 6: I thought, yeah, yeah, I was going to you know,

945
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,799
Speaker 6: thinking gun, hot dog, bulld eagle or what reference would

946
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 6: you understand? Right, So you know you're gonna also have

947
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:20,719
Speaker 6: to dip your sheep to prevent things like scab and

948
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 6: so that's just literally when the sheep dipped in this

949
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 6: stuff that sort of cleans them. Right, So there are

950
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 6: mobile sheep dips, or you can just go to a

951
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 6: sheep dip. Take your sheep to a sheep They can

952
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 6: do it there. Again, I'm not I've never seen one

953
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 6: in the US. I'm sure there are some, but I'm

954
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 6: not sure how you do that. I think you can

955
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 6: also spray them for this, and you'll want to check obviously,

956
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 6: all kind of dips a legal legal, and you don't

957
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 6: want to be dipping them with cuts. So like if

958
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 6: you have just been through your shearing and you've cut

959
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 6: them up, that's not a good time to do it.

960
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 6: And you don't want to dip thirsty sheep either for

961
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,360
Speaker 6: obvious reasons. Right, what they're going into is not suddenly

962
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:05,280
Speaker 6: wanted to be drinking. So predation. Predations are an interesting topic.

963
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 6: Sheep are not really great at defending themselves, and they

964
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,879
Speaker 6: just kind of big flufs. They can sort of butt

965
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 6: a little bit with their heads and then they do

966
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 6: do that, and they'll defend their their their little lambs.

967
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 6: And when we were little and we had dogs, if

968
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:25,840
Speaker 6: the dog, when it was a puppy, would chase sheep,

969
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 6: you could put the dog in a little pen with

970
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:32,359
Speaker 6: a U and her lambs and the U would be like, heay,

971
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 6: get away, get away, go away, leave my lambs alone,

972
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 6: and that then the dog would would be less likely

973
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 6: to chase sheep again because it's had this probably not

974
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 6: great to get a dog a traumatic experience and the U,

975
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 6: I suppose, but they'll defend their their lambs like that.

976
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 6: But you know, when you've got especially if you're in

977
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 6: North America, right, you've got like mountain lions, you've got coyotes,

978
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 6: you've got bobcats, all kinds of bigger stuff than I'm

979
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 6: used to. So a couple of options there. You've got

980
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 6: guys in animals, right, so something like a lama, a donkey,

981
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:08,360
Speaker 6: or like a livestock guardian dog. Me is enjoying the

982
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 6: idea of a guardian donkey, but the couple of different

983
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:16,439
Speaker 6: badeffits to each one of lama lama can be pretty mean.

984
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 6: I'm sure you guys have seen them. Like I've been

985
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 6: spat on by a few lama. They'll then they'll kick, yeah,

986
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:29,240
Speaker 6: then theyre bitey, and it's just really sort of obnoxious creatures.

987
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:32,959
Speaker 6: But that yeah, that they don't mess about, so those

988
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,880
Speaker 6: are decent. You know, it looks like one of the

989
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 6: sheep is just wildly deformed. If it's running around with

990
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 6: the sheep, you can get donkey. Donkey's also quite defensive

991
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:44,799
Speaker 6: and very loud, so you know, if your sheep are

992
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 6: in a field near your house and you have a donkey,

993
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 6: it's going to kick off. At night, something happens making

994
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 6: its characteristic donkey noises, and that will give you chance

995
00:48:55,000 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 6: to respond, and then you've got your livestock. Indian breeds

996
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 6: right like like Pyrenees is a great example. People will

997
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:07,399
Speaker 6: probably have seen my pictures of the statis Udicorn rutch.

998
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 6: They have Pyrenees dogs very helpful as you when you're

999
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:14,359
Speaker 6: being attacked by biggots because the dogs dogs will bark.

1000
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 6: But guardian dogs are like inherently they want to guide

1001
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 6: your sheep. So they'll just go out there and they'll

1002
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 6: move among the flock and they'll bark and run off

1003
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:27,799
Speaker 6: any attackers and they're very again, it's entirely in their

1004
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 6: breeding to do it. It's very funny actually, because chuds

1005
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 6: have this like I'm a sheep dog thing, you know

1006
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 6: when when they walk around with like five knives and

1007
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,840
Speaker 6: two guns and pepper spray, and then they always have

1008
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 6: a picture of border collie that is not what the

1009
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:43,799
Speaker 6: border collie dogs. A border Collige is like a dog

1010
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 6: with extreme anxiety that it's obsessed with collective security. And

1011
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 6: we'll just like border collie is naturally heard things, right,

1012
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 6: So I'm sure like you've seen people seen like One

1013
00:49:55,760 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 6: Man His Dog the TV program Again, it used to

1014
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:05,839
Speaker 6: be honest Sunday nights when I was little. It's it's

1015
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:11,800
Speaker 6: a competition as a sheep herding with dogs, competition there rules, yeah,

1016
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:16,439
Speaker 6: oh yeah, perhaps one of them. I've met American people

1017
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 6: who do this competitively, but I think it's more of

1018
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 6: a hobby than a way of life. But yeah, so

1019
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:26,359
Speaker 6: if you can google One Man this dog and watch

1020
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 6: different competitions. Obviously it's not gendered and it can be

1021
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 6: a person and their dog. But yeah, that's what border

1022
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 6: colligues do, right, they heard the sheep and when they're little,

1023
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 6: like you can start them out with herding chickens or

1024
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 6: ducks in your in your like if you have a

1025
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 6: farm yard, they'll they'll go out there and heard ducks

1026
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 6: just by themselves. They want to do it just in

1027
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 6: their breeding. But a guardian dog does not do that.

1028
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 6: It did just protects. But I think, like this is

1029
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 6: one of the things that we spoke about with with chickens, right, Like,

1030
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 6: if you want to have sheep, you're probably going to

1031
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,920
Speaker 6: have to either like well, if you're not willing to

1032
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:04,879
Speaker 6: defend them for predatives, probably shouldn't have them because it's

1033
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 6: a bit mean to just put them out there, is

1034
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 6: like coyote bait, a lion bait or whatever, Like you

1035
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:12,799
Speaker 6: might have to shoot something that looks like a dog

1036
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:14,799
Speaker 6: if you don't want your sheep to die, and like

1037
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 6: it's just how it's going to go down, you know,

1038
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 6: Like it's like not everyone has to have livestock. I'm

1039
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 6: not a person who eats animals, so like it's.

1040
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:30,280
Speaker 5: I mean, I think similar to chickens, most people shouldn't

1041
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 5: have chickens or sheep, you know what I mean. The

1042
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 5: vast majority of people, in my opinion, are better off

1043
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 5: not doing that, just because, like I don't think people

1044
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 5: realize the responsibility even with all this information. I think

1045
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 5: some people get too they jump the gun for lack

1046
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 5: of a better fucking term.

1047
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:52,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, totally, Like don't be rushing

1048
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:56,839
Speaker 6: into getting livestock. Like it's very like I've seen people

1049
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:58,840
Speaker 6: do that before. I've seen people do the whole like

1050
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 6: you know, I'll quit my job as a banker and

1051
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 6: come and live on a farm thing, and like they

1052
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:06,400
Speaker 6: just don't go and work on someone's fun. Right, if

1053
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:08,839
Speaker 6: you want to do that, you learn if you didn't

1054
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 6: grow up in this Like there are a million things

1055
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:12,319
Speaker 6: that I'm not telling you, and I'm forgetting to tell

1056
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 6: you that I take for granted, and like it just

1057
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 6: it takes time and it's complicated and and sometimes it's

1058
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 6: very sad, right, Like I said, she get sick and

1059
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:27,239
Speaker 6: they die and that's sad, and they get predated, and

1060
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:30,400
Speaker 6: that's very sad. Lambs get predated. It's really sad. So like,

1061
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 6: I don't know, it's not for everyone. It's certainly having

1062
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 6: a flock of sheep is quite a big and you

1063
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:38,799
Speaker 6: can't you know, can't just be like, oh right, I'm

1064
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:39,760
Speaker 6: off to well.

1065
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,759
Speaker 5: Right, I don't think why people have the land even

1066
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 5: necessary for that, so I don't know. Yeah, anyway, a

1067
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 5: few I'm so passionate about this that I actually have

1068
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:58,880
Speaker 5: to go now Okay, I believe it, Yes, Okay, I

1069
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:02,920
Speaker 5: have to record something else that's ays, so yeah, until

1070
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 5: next time.

1071
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, keep on parking.

1072
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:09,440
Speaker 2: By thanks.

1073
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 6: By Okay, We're going to briefly cover lambing and then

1074
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 6: we're we can be done. So, like I said, you can.

1075
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:20,279
Speaker 6: You can pick up orphan lambs, a good way to

1076
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:24,720
Speaker 6: add to your flock. The thing with little baby lambs

1077
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 6: is when when they're first born, right, if the mother

1078
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:30,359
Speaker 6: is either won't feed them sometimes she won't feed them,

1079
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 6: or if she dies, they're going to need what it's

1080
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:38,959
Speaker 6: called colostrum. Familiar with colostrum.

1081
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 2: That name sounds more familiar. I feel like it was.

1082
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:45,960
Speaker 6: I'm looking at briefly it was like an athletic performance

1083
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:49,239
Speaker 6: supplement tread, but like it's it's the milk that comes

1084
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 6: in the first twenty four hours, the sexual rich we'll

1085
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 6: need Yeah, from whatever animal, right, and any man or.

1086
00:53:57,640 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 6: I would imagine.

1087
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:01,799
Speaker 4: Milk produced by the memory glands of humans and other

1088
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:04,719
Speaker 4: mammals immediately following delivery of the newborn.

1089
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:06,400
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1090
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:08,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's so better summary than I made. Thank you do.

1091
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 9: Yeah.

1092
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 6: Always, So they're gonna need about five hundred mills on

1093
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 6: the first day. I think it's about a pint. It's

1094
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 6: you want it to be warm, so you can buy

1095
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 6: frozen clossrum. You can buy powdered classroom, but you don't

1096
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:28,960
Speaker 6: want to microwave it. The colossroom has some antibodies in

1097
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 6: it which help the little sheeps, like stomach I suppose

1098
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 6: get ready for the world. So it's why you don't

1099
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 6: want to microwave it. So generally they're pretty easy to

1100
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 6: bottle feed. Like if you stick your finger in, the

1101
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:46,480
Speaker 6: lamb will just like start sucking on that. It's a

1102
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:48,839
Speaker 6: good sign that it's you know, it's ready to bottle feed,

1103
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 6: and it's easy to bottle feed, so that you can

1104
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 6: sometimes do that's kind of a way to lure them

1105
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:55,960
Speaker 6: in and then start bottle feeding them. Sometimes you have

1106
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 6: to sort of rub them a bit to get them

1107
00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 6: to feed, and then they like to have their milk

1108
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 6: powder of the if you're doing powdered milk, right if

1109
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 6: with these awful lambs, but every four hours, and you're

1110
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 6: just going to gradually increase the amount you feed them.

1111
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:12,800
Speaker 6: And you know they'll need things like a heat lamp

1112
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 6: right to keep them warm because they don't have that

1113
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:20,800
Speaker 6: big heat sink of their mum embedding and water and

1114
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:23,000
Speaker 6: you know, a bit later you can it's a bit easier, right,

1115
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:24,840
Speaker 6: you can get a bucket with teats, so you just

1116
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 6: you're literally screwing the teats that go on a milk

1117
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:31,239
Speaker 6: bottle onto the bucket instead so they can drink of that.

1118
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 6: But it's a lot of work getting awful lambs. Like

1119
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:37,280
Speaker 6: they'll want to eat about every four hours. It doesn't

1120
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:39,759
Speaker 6: matter if you're sleeping, they still want to eat it.

1121
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 6: Like I can remember doing that a lot where it's

1122
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 6: little and you can get like once the lamb gets

1123
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 6: a bit older, you're going to want to do things

1124
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:53,160
Speaker 6: like you might want to castrate it, depending, you might

1125
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:55,759
Speaker 6: want to dock its tail depending, you might want to

1126
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:58,239
Speaker 6: vaccinate it or you do want to vaccinate it. But

1127
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:01,840
Speaker 6: also like they need time to be social with other sheeps,

1128
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:03,919
Speaker 6: so you can't just get one orphan lamb and raise

1129
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 6: it like some kind of sheep person that they need

1130
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:10,160
Speaker 6: to play with other sheep. They need time to run around.

1131
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:14,480
Speaker 6: They can be quite fun that they'll follow you around often,

1132
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 6: but the lawf and sheep like you can sort of

1133
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:18,359
Speaker 6: run around and they'll follow you around, so that's kind

1134
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:23,239
Speaker 6: of fun. And then you do eventually, like if you

1135
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 6: especially if you're raising a lot of orphan lambs, you're

1136
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 6: going to have ram lambs, right, and so you're either

1137
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:34,320
Speaker 6: going to have to castrate those or sell them because

1138
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 6: you're going to create an issue of inbreeding within your flock.

1139
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 6: Otherwise if you just keep all the lambs right, and

1140
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:43,960
Speaker 6: so that's the thing to think about. If you're going

1141
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:46,759
Speaker 6: to have sheep, at some point you're either going to

1142
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:48,319
Speaker 6: need to buy more or breed them. And if you're

1143
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:49,440
Speaker 6: going to breed them, what are you going to do

1144
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:53,759
Speaker 6: with the ram lambs so you can castrate them? They

1145
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 6: become weathers And that's generally where meat comes from that

1146
00:56:57,719 --> 00:57:02,920
Speaker 6: people eat. You don't want to particip that, you're just

1147
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:05,360
Speaker 6: going to pass it on someone else, right, you you know,

1148
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:10,000
Speaker 6: think the unfortunately this is commercial agriculture, even if you

1149
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:13,480
Speaker 6: don't eat meat, like it's about killing animals, which is

1150
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:18,200
Speaker 6: why I don't like to do that. Yeah, so with lambs,

1151
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 6: when you've got pregnant use you'll want to scan them

1152
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:22,800
Speaker 6: see how many lambs there are, and that helps you

1153
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 6: make feeding decisions for the pregnant you. And that's sort

1154
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 6: of when you can look at like how many lambs

1155
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:33,800
Speaker 6: are coming right, how much does she need to eat?

1156
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:36,120
Speaker 6: And then once you've done this, you want to get

1157
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:39,120
Speaker 6: your barn ready for lambing. Just put We used to

1158
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:41,160
Speaker 6: use palletts, you know, palettes things come on when you

1159
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 6: buy like a lot of sheep food for instance, you

1160
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:46,440
Speaker 6: know it comes on a palette with a forklift and

1161
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:48,880
Speaker 6: get under. You can just use those to separate out

1162
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 6: little stalls from to lamb in, put some straw in there,

1163
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 6: and then when they lamb just because again they've been

1164
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:59,280
Speaker 6: bread selectively for so long, they can sometimes strugger struggle

1165
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:04,680
Speaker 6: to deliver and if you're of the means to do so,

1166
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:06,560
Speaker 6: having a vet of course is lovely right, like a

1167
00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:10,160
Speaker 6: large animal vet, But generally people who have find me

1168
00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:12,720
Speaker 6: commerce you don't have the resources to do that. It's

1169
00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 6: just it's just not doesn't fit with you know, the

1170
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:17,440
Speaker 6: cost of doing that, so you mostly do it yourself,

1171
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:19,240
Speaker 6: like I've done it a lot. You and you want

1172
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:21,800
Speaker 6: to get yourself a full arm glove, like a full

1173
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 6: plastic glove that gets like a sleeve glove, and then

1174
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:26,920
Speaker 6: you can you can do a lot in terms of

1175
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 6: like turning the lamb around if it's coming out the

1176
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:31,920
Speaker 6: wrong way, or helping the delivery. And I'll leave you

1177
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 6: to google that on your own time. You just need

1178
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,800
Speaker 6: to do all that one. No, it's yeah, it's a

1179
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:39,920
Speaker 6: miracle of life, Daniel.

1180
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 2: Then you just beautiful, beautiful in its own ways.

1181
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's really sweet when you get the lamb out

1182
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:49,920
Speaker 6: and you're like, ah, yeah, I turned it around and

1183
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:51,600
Speaker 6: it's get it pops up and it does a little

1184
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:54,760
Speaker 6: shake and it stands on its litlf feet. It's very sweet.

1185
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 6: It's kind of amazing compared to human babies. Human babies

1186
00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:00,320
Speaker 6: come out and like I've seen a few human and

1187
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:03,480
Speaker 6: they're just like not particularly useful or capable in their

1188
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:05,720
Speaker 6: early life. But lambs come out and they like they

1189
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 6: get up and they can run around and they can

1190
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:10,600
Speaker 6: suckle and like you know, within twenty four hours they're

1191
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:15,280
Speaker 6: like a functional tiny sheet. So that that's going up nice.

1192
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:17,560
Speaker 6: So you do want to when they're when they're when

1193
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:19,560
Speaker 6: they're born, right, you just sort of get into the

1194
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:22,360
Speaker 6: little little nose and mouth area and just clear that

1195
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:24,360
Speaker 6: from anything that might be blocking it, just so they

1196
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 6: can breathe. You can use a bit of straw to

1197
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:30,160
Speaker 6: get into the little nostrils just just to sort of

1198
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:33,560
Speaker 6: get any any mucus or whatever out, and then you

1199
00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 6: cut the umbilical cord up staying and disinfect that just

1200
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:39,240
Speaker 6: with somemodine. I think you can see actually that I

1201
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 6: send you one picture of a lamb last night where

1202
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:42,760
Speaker 6: it's you can see where it's been disinfected and it's

1203
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 6: umbilical cord. Sometimes you just want to strip a couple

1204
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:50,600
Speaker 6: of like you just want to check that you can

1205
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:53,320
Speaker 6: give milk. Sometimes the teats can get plugged up in

1206
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:57,919
Speaker 6: their pregnance. You just give it a little little squeeze, yes,

1207
00:59:57,960 --> 00:59:59,840
Speaker 6: and then then within a week and I want to

1208
00:59:59,880 --> 01:00:03,760
Speaker 6: do things like docking tails and castrating. Some some breedscin

1209
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:07,880
Speaker 6: lamb outside, but some can't. So again, this is all

1210
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:09,919
Speaker 6: stuff to consider it when you're trying to buy your sheep. Right.

1211
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:13,760
Speaker 6: The last thing I've got about lambing is sometimes you

1212
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:16,040
Speaker 6: use will reject the lamb you can either try and

1213
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:18,440
Speaker 6: like hold the u in place so the lamb can suckle,

1214
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:21,440
Speaker 6: or if she's really hurting them, then you take them

1215
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:23,960
Speaker 6: away and then you have to look after them yourself,

1216
01:00:24,280 --> 01:00:27,480
Speaker 6: and then they become your little friends and you can

1217
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:31,280
Speaker 6: give them names. Yeah, it's very sweet, fine, like I said,

1218
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:36,960
Speaker 6: unfortunately sweet, yeah, yeah, right, this is a thing with

1219
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:41,040
Speaker 6: commercial agriculture, right, Like it's the nature of the thing.

1220
01:00:41,120 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 6: Like if you're you have cattle, what are you going

1221
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:46,200
Speaker 6: to do with the with the you know, any male

1222
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:48,720
Speaker 6: offspring of any species, right, even if you just had

1223
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:51,040
Speaker 6: the sheep and you want to have them for milk, cool,

1224
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:53,680
Speaker 6: but they're not going to continue lactating for their whole life,

1225
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:55,800
Speaker 6: so they're going to have to have lambs and then

1226
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:57,000
Speaker 6: they're going to have to have lamb. You're going to

1227
01:00:57,040 --> 01:00:58,720
Speaker 6: have decide what you want to do with the ram lambs,

1228
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:01,120
Speaker 6: and so it's a difficult thing. It's not for everyone.

1229
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:05,160
Speaker 6: But yeah, sheep wonderful creatures, very friendly. You know, if

1230
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:06,919
Speaker 6: you're walking past, you could you could see if someone

1231
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:09,200
Speaker 6: to train them to come to the words sheep just

1232
01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:12,800
Speaker 6: by shouting sheep at them. And if not, you know,

1233
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:16,160
Speaker 6: passes by will think you've correctly identified the species, so

1234
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:23,200
Speaker 6: big dub for you either way. Yeah, the sheep is

1235
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:27,160
Speaker 6: a wonderful animal, the very friendly of all the farmer animals.

1236
01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:30,680
Speaker 6: I think they're my favorite, and just growing up around them.

1237
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:33,600
Speaker 6: If you're small, like you know, only do it if

1238
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 6: you're a very little human, probably not old enough to

1239
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:39,120
Speaker 6: listen to some of the content we broadcast. If your

1240
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:40,840
Speaker 6: agent want to be in like single digits, but you

1241
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:43,760
Speaker 6: can ride them. You can sort of sit on them,

1242
01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:46,160
Speaker 6: fall on their shoulders and ride them around.

1243
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:46,640
Speaker 8: Wow.

1244
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:50,680
Speaker 6: Really it's not a controlled experience, like it's just going

1245
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:54,040
Speaker 6: to run because it doesn't doesn't want you on its back,

1246
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 6: and you know, it might not be very nice for

1247
01:01:56,160 --> 01:02:01,360
Speaker 6: sheep thinking about it, But yeah, many many wonderful things

1248
01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:03,560
Speaker 6: you can do with sheep. They're very rewarding to have,

1249
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:06,120
Speaker 6: I will say, But yeah, it's sad. It's also a

1250
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:09,960
Speaker 6: difficult thing. So yeah, it did some big too. Consider

1251
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:12,280
Speaker 6: if you if you do milk, then they make good cheese.

1252
01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:15,640
Speaker 6: I think that's the primary reason that people dairy sheep

1253
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:18,400
Speaker 6: is for cheese. I don't think many people are drinking

1254
01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:21,840
Speaker 6: sheep milk, you know, please don't let me know if

1255
01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:25,680
Speaker 6: you are it's fine. I'm happy for you. No need,

1256
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:27,160
Speaker 6: there's no need to share.

1257
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:29,160
Speaker 2: Now, Yeah, sheep.

1258
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:32,600
Speaker 6: Every every wool pair of socks, very wool jumper that

1259
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:36,440
Speaker 6: you have, every sheep's cheese that you eat, comes from

1260
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:39,600
Speaker 6: these wonderful animals. Now you know a little more about

1261
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 6: and you can get sheep soaked too. That's my last

1262
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:43,720
Speaker 6: plug for this sheep. So it looks like a sheep,

1263
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:46,640
Speaker 6: but in the middle of it, it's so cute. Yeah,

1264
01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:49,360
Speaker 6: it's very good for washing your hands. And maybe one

1265
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:52,560
Speaker 6: day we will have Colson Media sheep soap for you

1266
01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:52,959
Speaker 6: to buy.

1267
01:02:53,520 --> 01:02:53,720
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1268
01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:55,560
Speaker 4: I saw pictures of it and it was that's a

1269
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:57,640
Speaker 4: past for me. But you know what, there's a lot

1270
01:02:57,640 --> 01:03:02,280
Speaker 4: of people, so more power, more power to them.

1271
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, disappointing dan anti sheep. Actually, yeah, put post pictures

1272
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:10,280
Speaker 6: of your sheep and tag me and various social media

1273
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:14,120
Speaker 6: someone some people already do. But yeah, that's that's about

1274
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:16,200
Speaker 6: what I got on sheep and any sheep questions before

1275
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:16,520
Speaker 6: we go.

1276
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:20,160
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, I will say each new sheep

1277
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:23,160
Speaker 4: fact brought up another sheep question. But I think you

1278
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:26,520
Speaker 4: did a great job of explaining owning sheep, taking care

1279
01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:31,120
Speaker 4: of sheep, rearing, sheep lambing. I mean I've I've.

1280
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:31,680
Speaker 2: Come away.

1281
01:03:33,000 --> 01:03:36,120
Speaker 4: With with a with a whole bale full of knowledge

1282
01:03:36,160 --> 01:03:38,080
Speaker 4: about sheepis me?

1283
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:40,200
Speaker 2: What about you?

1284
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:41,360
Speaker 8: Yeah, I've I've learned.

1285
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:47,280
Speaker 2: There's the sheep flippers. I cant getting sheep flippers r KO,

1286
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:49,520
Speaker 2: and your sheep to is great.

1287
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:52,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, we can do one way. You teach me one

1288
01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:53,160
Speaker 6: r KO, it's down.

1289
01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:56,840
Speaker 4: I will teach you by showing you as opposed to

1290
01:03:56,880 --> 01:03:59,360
Speaker 4: performing it. But yes, I will. I will definitely teach you.

1291
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:06,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's our next live show. But yeah, I enjoy

1292
01:04:07,120 --> 01:04:09,000
Speaker 6: the stuff that you now know about sheep. Everyone.

1293
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:13,720
Speaker 4: Yes, and this has been It could happen here find

1294
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:18,080
Speaker 4: us on the internet at cool Zone Media, or it

1295
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 4: could happen here pod. Right, I never do that happen here, pod,

1296
01:04:22,160 --> 01:04:24,120
Speaker 4: but I know it needs to happen. Happen here pod.

1297
01:04:24,160 --> 01:04:25,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what it is. Thank you.

1298
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:29,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, put it put into the search engine of your choice,

1299
01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:33,160
Speaker 6: it'll come up. Do you guys want to plug anything

1300
01:04:33,200 --> 01:04:33,800
Speaker 6: before we leave?

1301
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:35,240
Speaker 2: Mia you go first?

1302
01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:38,919
Speaker 3: Oh, I got nothing, I got I got elon musk

1303
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:40,680
Speaker 3: got me so I don't have social media anymore?

1304
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:41,120
Speaker 2: Here you go?

1305
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:44,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I guess if you're in the US, check

1306
01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:49,320
Speaker 6: out Navajoate. You're a sheep every cool Navajatre a sheep association. Hey,

1307
01:04:49,520 --> 01:04:53,280
Speaker 6: you know it's good to support indigenous folks. The rest

1308
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:56,400
Speaker 6: of us will be sheep farming. I'm Stolen Land, so in.

1309
01:04:56,400 --> 01:04:59,479
Speaker 4: Facts, it's all everything we're doing is all Stolen Land.

1310
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:02,080
Speaker 4: You can check me out on Twitch. I'm twitch dot

1311
01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:04,200
Speaker 4: Tv slash DJ Underscore Danel that's.

1312
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:06,880
Speaker 6: It magic, Thank you, danil Cool.

1313
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:24,240
Speaker 7: All right, let's end it.

1314
01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:28,000
Speaker 3: It's it's a solo Meda episode if it could happen here,

1315
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:31,120
Speaker 3: the podcast where things fall apart and sometimes we put

1316
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:34,640
Speaker 3: them back together. I'm your host, Mia Wong, and today

1317
01:05:34,640 --> 01:05:36,520
Speaker 3: we're going to be talking about why the rent is

1318
01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:40,439
Speaker 3: so high. Now, okay, There's there's a lot of sort

1319
01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:43,160
Speaker 3: of ways that you could in theory approach this question,

1320
01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:47,600
Speaker 3: and I decided that I think one of the most

1321
01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:49,800
Speaker 3: useful approaches to it is you take a sort of

1322
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:53,800
Speaker 3: a more a more sort of historical and theoretical approach.

1323
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:57,880
Speaker 3: And I think the start of any kind of sort

1324
01:05:57,920 --> 01:06:00,640
Speaker 3: of theoretical approach to rent is by asking what rent

1325
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 3: actually is and the answer to this and this is

1326
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:08,760
Speaker 3: something that is that is relatively consistent across most of

1327
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:12,000
Speaker 3: sort of classical political economy, and you see this in

1328
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:15,800
Speaker 3: some sort of geoclassical economics, is that the thing that's

1329
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:20,600
Speaker 3: special about rent is that rent, unlike you know, anything else,

1330
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:23,920
Speaker 3: is money that you get because you own something, not

1331
01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:27,960
Speaker 3: because you you know, have produced anything. And this means

1332
01:06:28,120 --> 01:06:32,680
Speaker 3: that you know, the landlord does not produce anything of

1333
01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:35,520
Speaker 3: value at all. All they do is extract value from

1334
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:40,720
Speaker 3: other sectors of the economy. Now, this has a wide,

1335
01:06:40,800 --> 01:06:44,919
Speaker 3: wide variety of sort of political and social effects. Mark

1336
01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:47,600
Speaker 3: saw the landowning class as an obstacle to the development

1337
01:06:47,600 --> 01:06:51,040
Speaker 3: of capitalism, and this is an idea. The idea of

1338
01:06:51,040 --> 01:06:54,600
Speaker 3: that again, landowners specifically as a class that is different

1339
01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:57,280
Speaker 3: from the sort of capitalist class or the working class,

1340
01:06:59,560 --> 01:07:03,160
Speaker 3: hinders the growth of capitalism is an idea that a

1341
01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:06,600
Speaker 3: lot of different people across the basically the entirety of

1342
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:10,560
Speaker 3: the political spectrum have shared at various times, and this

1343
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:14,320
Speaker 3: causes some very very strange alliances. Particularly in places like

1344
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:18,840
Speaker 3: Latin America, you still have economies that are not entirely based,

1345
01:07:18,840 --> 01:07:22,000
Speaker 3: but economies that have enormous landowners who drive sort of

1346
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:24,919
Speaker 3: vast portions of both the economy and of the sort

1347
01:07:24,920 --> 01:07:29,720
Speaker 3: of political process and in Latin America, and this is

1348
01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:32,680
Speaker 3: true in a lot of other places. It was not

1349
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:35,880
Speaker 3: uncommon for you to get what's known as developmentalism, which

1350
01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:39,560
Speaker 3: is an ideology based on using essentially protectionist measures, things

1351
01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:43,640
Speaker 3: like terriffs, sometimes capital controls, restrictions on kinds of investment

1352
01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:44,920
Speaker 3: that foreign companies can do.

1353
01:07:45,320 --> 01:07:46,480
Speaker 2: Sometimes I mean just straight up.

1354
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:49,600
Speaker 3: The nationalization of natural resources in order to develop an

1355
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:55,760
Speaker 3: industrial economy. Now, developmentalism, as our most sort of alliances

1356
01:07:55,760 --> 01:08:00,800
Speaker 3: against the land and elite, are politically messy. It draws

1357
01:08:00,840 --> 01:08:03,960
Speaker 3: on a range of ideologies from you know, like pretty

1358
01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:08,720
Speaker 3: right wing nationalists, some very very very scary people technically developmentalists,

1359
01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:13,160
Speaker 3: to liberal and also centrist factions whose sort of productive

1360
01:08:13,160 --> 01:08:16,760
Speaker 3: and social base is in a specific kind of sort

1361
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:19,839
Speaker 3: of domestic capitalist who's interested in sort of producing stuff locally,

1362
01:08:22,040 --> 01:08:25,280
Speaker 3: and also to people like Bolivia's Evo Morales, who is

1363
01:08:25,360 --> 01:08:27,560
Speaker 3: you know, broadly considered a socialist, although I think his

1364
01:08:27,600 --> 01:08:31,160
Speaker 3: commitment to anything like socialist politics is tenuous at best.

1365
01:08:32,280 --> 01:08:35,160
Speaker 3: But all of these sort of political groups can and do,

1366
01:08:35,360 --> 01:08:37,960
Speaker 3: and have various times work together. This is actually one

1367
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:41,040
Speaker 3: of the bases of Morales as well. I guess it's

1368
01:08:41,040 --> 01:08:47,519
Speaker 3: not really Moralys's party anymore, but Evan Morales's MS, which

1369
01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:49,880
Speaker 3: was a very sort of explicit alliance between sort of

1370
01:08:49,960 --> 01:08:53,080
Speaker 3: left wing social movements and then more sort of moderate

1371
01:08:53,120 --> 01:08:58,080
Speaker 3: centrist factions who were effectively developmentalist. This is sort of

1372
01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:03,519
Speaker 3: a representation of a very common like kind of developmentalist politics,

1373
01:09:03,560 --> 01:09:05,640
Speaker 3: which is again this alliance between sort of left and

1374
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:08,840
Speaker 3: capitalist factions who ally gets like large landowners on the

1375
01:09:08,840 --> 01:09:11,519
Speaker 3: basis that feudalism, which is which is usually the way

1376
01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:13,439
Speaker 3: that like the sort of the power of large landowners

1377
01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:16,679
Speaker 3: is conceived, is an enemy to both of them. Now,

1378
01:09:17,080 --> 01:09:20,920
Speaker 3: this isn't how sort of develop like states that use

1379
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:25,640
Speaker 3: developmentalist strategies have to work. Germany, for example, uses a

1380
01:09:25,680 --> 01:09:28,639
Speaker 3: lot of developmentalist techniques to industrialize in the late eighteen hundreds.

1381
01:09:28,920 --> 01:09:31,160
Speaker 3: But you know, the old landowning class, the old sort

1382
01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:35,000
Speaker 3: of like like German aristocracy, is allied with the capitalists

1383
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:38,280
Speaker 3: in Germany, and the two you know, the two classes,

1384
01:09:38,320 --> 01:09:41,560
Speaker 3: the sort of German aristocracy and the capitalist class effectively birge.

1385
01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:45,440
Speaker 3: On the other hand, land owning classes are often implacably

1386
01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:50,240
Speaker 3: hostile to industrialization and coundreds that essentially annihilated the landowning

1387
01:09:50,280 --> 01:09:54,160
Speaker 3: classes by carrying out land reform tend to perform better

1388
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:57,200
Speaker 3: economically than their counterparts who left a landowning class intact,

1389
01:09:57,439 --> 01:10:00,040
Speaker 3: which contributed to the enormous success of the economies of

1390
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:03,000
Speaker 3: countries like China and Japan, Taiwan and Vietnam, who, despite

1391
01:10:03,040 --> 01:10:06,519
Speaker 3: their enormous sort of ideological and political differences, all carried

1392
01:10:06,520 --> 01:10:08,840
Speaker 3: out lander for in the twentieth century were rewarded with

1393
01:10:09,720 --> 01:10:14,200
Speaker 3: eventually by very very powerful in large scale industrial economies.

1394
01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:16,800
Speaker 3: But you know, you might be saying me, you've kind

1395
01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:18,320
Speaker 3: of put the cart in front of the horse here.

1396
01:10:18,360 --> 01:10:22,080
Speaker 3: You've talked about, you know, you've gone into some of

1397
01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:27,000
Speaker 3: the sort of political effects of rent first, but you

1398
01:10:27,080 --> 01:10:32,120
Speaker 3: haven't actually, you know, explained how rent actually works. And

1399
01:10:32,160 --> 01:10:34,680
Speaker 3: so that is what I'm going to do next. And

1400
01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:38,400
Speaker 3: to explain how rent works, I'm going to turn to

1401
01:10:38,439 --> 01:10:42,000
Speaker 3: an unusual source, the work of the great Venezuela and

1402
01:10:42,040 --> 01:10:48,640
Speaker 3: anthropologist Fernando Corneal. Corneal's a fascinating character. He studied anthropology

1403
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:51,679
Speaker 3: at my alma mater, the University of Chicago, under Terrence Turner,

1404
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:54,320
Speaker 3: a guy who I think ninety nine percent people have

1405
01:10:54,360 --> 01:10:56,800
Speaker 3: never heard of before, but is probably most famous now

1406
01:10:56,840 --> 01:11:00,240
Speaker 3: for being also you know, also teaching David Gray and

1407
01:11:00,280 --> 01:11:03,639
Speaker 3: being a sort of major influence on his work. Now,

1408
01:11:03,760 --> 01:11:07,639
Speaker 3: unlike David Graver. While Corneal was at the University of Chicago,

1409
01:11:08,040 --> 01:11:10,320
Speaker 3: he tried to get permission from the Cuban government to

1410
01:11:10,320 --> 01:11:12,920
Speaker 3: go do field work in Cuba, and you know, so

1411
01:11:12,960 --> 01:11:14,760
Speaker 3: he gets to Cuba and he's like negotiating with the

1412
01:11:14,760 --> 01:11:17,759
Speaker 3: government and the government tells him to fuck off. So okay,

1413
01:11:17,760 --> 01:11:20,639
Speaker 3: he tries to go back to the US. But Immigration

1414
01:11:20,720 --> 01:11:24,360
Speaker 3: and Nationalization Services, the i INS, which is basically the

1415
01:11:24,360 --> 01:11:27,719
Speaker 3: predecessor of like Immigration Services ICE in the Border Patrol

1416
01:11:28,200 --> 01:11:30,320
Speaker 3: i INS was sort of dissolved in two thousand and

1417
01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:33,960
Speaker 3: three when the sort of like I don't know exactly

1418
01:11:33,960 --> 01:11:36,080
Speaker 3: what the technical term for it is, but with the

1419
01:11:36,120 --> 01:11:39,400
Speaker 3: consolidation information of the Department of Homeland Security, which is

1420
01:11:39,720 --> 01:11:42,519
Speaker 3: really truly a thing that I think we tend to

1421
01:11:42,520 --> 01:11:45,639
Speaker 3: think it was only present, but is actually about twenty

1422
01:11:45,720 --> 01:11:48,320
Speaker 3: years old, and I am older than.

1423
01:11:50,200 --> 01:11:50,400
Speaker 8: There was.

1424
01:11:50,439 --> 01:11:52,960
Speaker 3: Also, you know, this sort of outside of this episode

1425
01:11:53,000 --> 01:11:56,639
Speaker 3: is like an enormously fascist institution that centralized an enormous

1426
01:11:56,680 --> 01:11:59,800
Speaker 3: amount of sort of political power in these like terrifying

1427
01:12:00,080 --> 01:12:04,040
Speaker 3: valance and police bureaucracies. But you know, okay, so they're

1428
01:12:04,120 --> 01:12:06,800
Speaker 3: back back, back, back, back to the Fernando Coordineal story.

1429
01:12:06,840 --> 01:12:08,160
Speaker 3: So he guy used to go back to the US,

1430
01:12:08,280 --> 01:12:10,879
Speaker 3: but an asked is the predecessor for all this stuff?

1431
01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:15,040
Speaker 3: Like arrest him immediately, and they deport him and ban

1432
01:12:15,240 --> 01:12:20,200
Speaker 3: him from the US on the grounds that he he

1433
01:12:20,400 --> 01:12:24,280
Speaker 3: was that they suspected him of being a quote subversive agent.

1434
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:29,960
Speaker 3: Now and again, I cannot emphasize this enough. The sequence

1435
01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:33,360
Speaker 3: of events here is that he tries to go to

1436
01:12:33,520 --> 01:12:36,639
Speaker 3: Cuba and the Cuban government tells him to fuck off.

1437
01:12:37,400 --> 01:12:39,880
Speaker 3: So he goes back to the US and the US

1438
01:12:39,960 --> 01:12:42,840
Speaker 3: government is like, oh, yeah, no, this guy through the

1439
01:12:42,840 --> 01:12:45,040
Speaker 3: Cuban government just refused to lent to do field work.

1440
01:12:45,080 --> 01:12:49,160
Speaker 3: This this this guy is definitely a Cuban agent. So

1441
01:12:49,360 --> 01:12:52,240
Speaker 3: his his entire sort of like life gets derailed by this.

1442
01:12:52,479 --> 01:12:54,439
Speaker 3: He wants up, I think back in Venezuela for a while.

1443
01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:58,440
Speaker 3: I think it takes like twenty almost like twenty years

1444
01:12:58,479 --> 01:12:59,640
Speaker 3: for him to be able to get back to the

1445
01:12:59,720 --> 01:13:02,800
Speaker 3: US to finish his PhD. But you know, when he

1446
01:13:02,840 --> 01:13:04,160
Speaker 3: does and sort of be in the process of this,

1447
01:13:04,439 --> 01:13:08,160
Speaker 3: he becomes a very very famous and well respected anthropologist.

1448
01:13:09,240 --> 01:13:12,720
Speaker 3: Now when I was it U Chicago, like all of

1449
01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:14,840
Speaker 3: the people who sort of trained Corneal that that whole

1450
01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:17,200
Speaker 3: generation and really like the whole sort of school of

1451
01:13:17,240 --> 01:13:20,559
Speaker 3: anthropology that he came from, which is a very very

1452
01:13:20,560 --> 01:13:22,519
Speaker 3: interesting school that you know, if if you want to

1453
01:13:22,560 --> 01:13:26,280
Speaker 3: like read about this kind of stuff, I read David

1454
01:13:26,320 --> 01:13:29,600
Speaker 3: Graeber's Towards an Anthopological Theory of Value. I might do

1455
01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:31,400
Speaker 3: an episode on it at some point later, but.

1456
01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:32,479
Speaker 2: All of that stuff is gone.

1457
01:13:32,720 --> 01:13:36,280
Speaker 3: But but I ran into a professor who knew him

1458
01:13:36,320 --> 01:13:38,799
Speaker 3: back in the day, and he told us that Corneil

1459
01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:40,599
Speaker 3: was you know, on the one hand, very is back

1460
01:13:40,640 --> 01:13:43,439
Speaker 3: to the academic like very sort of like upstanding, like

1461
01:13:43,560 --> 01:13:47,040
Speaker 3: member of the academic communitee also incredibly popular, as like

1462
01:13:47,320 --> 01:13:50,400
Speaker 3: a partier who just get absolutely wasted and start dancing

1463
01:13:50,400 --> 01:13:56,320
Speaker 3: on tables. This guy absolutely rips, you know, and I

1464
01:13:56,320 --> 01:13:58,479
Speaker 3: think a very few people outside of anthropology you've ever

1465
01:13:58,520 --> 01:14:01,240
Speaker 3: heard of him. But in anthropology O'Neil is important enough

1466
01:14:01,240 --> 01:14:03,000
Speaker 3: to like, if you write about the state, you at

1467
01:14:03,080 --> 01:14:06,400
Speaker 3: least have to like mention him. And you know, that

1468
01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:08,760
Speaker 3: doesn't necessarily mean that like most of the people who

1469
01:14:09,320 --> 01:14:11,600
Speaker 3: say the words that the Magical State, which is the

1470
01:14:11,640 --> 01:14:14,439
Speaker 3: name of his sort of famous book. Actually have read it,

1471
01:14:14,479 --> 01:14:16,639
Speaker 3: but I did read this book. I've read this book

1472
01:14:16,720 --> 01:14:22,679
Speaker 3: multiple times and it's really really interesting.

1473
01:14:23,160 --> 01:14:23,479
Speaker 2: Now.

1474
01:14:24,680 --> 01:14:27,800
Speaker 3: The Magical State, Nature, Money, and Majority in Venezuela is

1475
01:14:27,880 --> 01:14:30,479
Speaker 3: probably most famous as a history of the Venezuelan state,

1476
01:14:31,040 --> 01:14:34,760
Speaker 3: but that doesn't mean that it's sort of exclusively about

1477
01:14:34,880 --> 01:14:38,639
Speaker 3: that history, and in fact, you know it, it really

1478
01:14:38,760 --> 01:14:43,960
Speaker 3: can't be. In order to think about the Venezuelan state,

1479
01:14:44,760 --> 01:14:48,840
Speaker 3: you have to think about oil. But you also can't

1480
01:14:49,240 --> 01:14:52,439
Speaker 3: think about oil in the way that most histories of

1481
01:14:52,479 --> 01:14:55,040
Speaker 3: oil think about it, which is a story about sort

1482
01:14:55,080 --> 01:14:56,400
Speaker 3: of like high geopolitics.

1483
01:14:56,479 --> 01:14:56,599
Speaker 8: Right.

1484
01:14:56,600 --> 01:14:58,800
Speaker 3: If you look at history of oil, right, it's about

1485
01:14:58,800 --> 01:15:04,040
Speaker 3: like hygeo politics and like prospecting and like trekking oil

1486
01:15:04,080 --> 01:15:07,040
Speaker 3: prices over time, and you know, the sort of most

1487
01:15:07,080 --> 01:15:09,479
Speaker 3: famous book of this genre is Daniel Jurgen's The Prize,

1488
01:15:09,479 --> 01:15:14,240
Speaker 3: which is a fine book, but it shares in this

1489
01:15:14,360 --> 01:15:17,320
Speaker 3: sort of tendency to you know, kind of you know,

1490
01:15:17,640 --> 01:15:20,479
Speaker 3: unless they're writing about like a die going prospecting, right,

1491
01:15:20,479 --> 01:15:23,439
Speaker 3: there's this tendency to sort of ignore the sort of

1492
01:15:23,520 --> 01:15:27,800
Speaker 3: material characteristics of oil and the sort of political effects

1493
01:15:27,880 --> 01:15:30,320
Speaker 3: of the extraction process, and a lot of other aspects

1494
01:15:30,360 --> 01:15:34,760
Speaker 3: of oil that are very very important. And what Corineal

1495
01:15:34,880 --> 01:15:40,680
Speaker 3: realizes is that oil is intricately tied to sort of

1496
01:15:40,680 --> 01:15:44,000
Speaker 3: the political conception of nature, to systems of land ownership,

1497
01:15:44,080 --> 01:15:48,479
Speaker 3: and also to Venezuela and state craft. Now this may

1498
01:15:48,560 --> 01:15:51,920
Speaker 3: seem a bit far afield, but in order to understand oil,

1499
01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:56,439
Speaker 3: you have to think about rent and rent extraction. And

1500
01:15:56,479 --> 01:15:59,000
Speaker 3: that's what Coroneal does in ways that are both sort

1501
01:15:59,040 --> 01:16:01,360
Speaker 3: of profoundly interested and I think, in a lot of

1502
01:16:01,360 --> 01:16:05,960
Speaker 3: ways profoundly ahead of his time. So Corneal, like us,

1503
01:16:06,000 --> 01:16:10,559
Speaker 3: ask the question what actually is rent now? For for

1504
01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:16,000
Speaker 3: you know, Corneal goes through rent in a lot, you know,

1505
01:16:16,479 --> 01:16:18,360
Speaker 3: and it like goes goes through what you could, I

1506
01:16:18,360 --> 01:16:21,120
Speaker 3: guess called economic history of concessions of rent, right starting

1507
01:16:21,120 --> 01:16:25,360
Speaker 3: with the classical economists. Uh, we're not that interested in

1508
01:16:25,400 --> 01:16:29,120
Speaker 3: the classical economists, because quite frankly, if you're if I

1509
01:16:29,160 --> 01:16:32,080
Speaker 3: don't know if you're running into a neo Ricardian analysis

1510
01:16:32,120 --> 01:16:34,240
Speaker 3: of what rent is like, I don't know, you're you're

1511
01:16:34,280 --> 01:16:38,080
Speaker 3: already a specialist, like stuff is stuff, Stuff is happening

1512
01:16:38,120 --> 01:16:43,920
Speaker 3: for you, thus quite interesting, quite odd but we're we're

1513
01:16:43,920 --> 01:16:46,720
Speaker 3: mostly going to ignore them because the original classical economists'

1514
01:16:46,880 --> 01:16:50,800
Speaker 3: work has it's it's largely not the way people think

1515
01:16:50,800 --> 01:16:54,200
Speaker 3: about this now, and to the extent that people sort

1516
01:16:54,240 --> 01:16:59,360
Speaker 3: of claim to be derivatives of like these people, like

1517
01:16:59,360 --> 01:17:04,000
Speaker 3: people claiming age of Adam Smith, like e that's kind

1518
01:17:04,000 --> 01:17:06,799
Speaker 3: of sketchy. Is that we're going to turn to Corneals

1519
01:17:06,840 --> 01:17:11,040
Speaker 3: analysis of the way that neoclassical economics thinks about rents now.

1520
01:17:11,439 --> 01:17:13,519
Speaker 3: Corneal someone who has spent a lot of time in

1521
01:17:13,560 --> 01:17:16,439
Speaker 3: the sort of literature of like oil pricing and sort

1522
01:17:16,439 --> 01:17:19,760
Speaker 3: of theories the sort of price formation and the state

1523
01:17:19,800 --> 01:17:21,920
Speaker 3: of the market or the effect of political actors on it,

1524
01:17:21,960 --> 01:17:25,479
Speaker 3: et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and he argues that

1525
01:17:25,479 --> 01:17:29,840
Speaker 3: there's basically two ways of thinking about rent. In terms

1526
01:17:29,880 --> 01:17:34,200
Speaker 3: of a commodity like oil. There is a macroeconomics view

1527
01:17:34,200 --> 01:17:37,200
Speaker 3: in which the rent someone who owns oil extracts when

1528
01:17:37,240 --> 01:17:39,200
Speaker 3: people have to buy it from them, you know, Okay,

1529
01:17:39,240 --> 01:17:41,680
Speaker 3: So like like if if you're a landowner, right, you

1530
01:17:41,720 --> 01:17:44,360
Speaker 3: get rent because you own the thing, and then people

1531
01:17:44,400 --> 01:17:47,640
Speaker 3: have to like take it, like people need it. You

1532
01:17:47,760 --> 01:17:49,320
Speaker 3: have it, so you get to extract rent from it

1533
01:17:49,360 --> 01:17:53,080
Speaker 3: just by virtue sort of having it in the In

1534
01:17:53,120 --> 01:18:00,400
Speaker 3: the microeconomics view, when someone like pays the rent, right,

1535
01:18:00,920 --> 01:18:03,639
Speaker 3: what that is is they're paying for what's called natural

1536
01:18:03,680 --> 01:18:07,559
Speaker 3: capital or capital that's you know, provided by nature that

1537
01:18:07,680 --> 01:18:10,400
Speaker 3: someone now owns through like the miracle of private property.

1538
01:18:10,800 --> 01:18:13,960
Speaker 3: And so for these people, rent isn't something that's extracted

1539
01:18:14,000 --> 01:18:16,880
Speaker 3: at all, right, It's just someone getting paid for their capital.

1540
01:18:16,920 --> 01:18:21,040
Speaker 3: Because the way that they think about, you know, about

1541
01:18:21,080 --> 01:18:23,479
Speaker 3: something like oil, is that they think oil is just

1542
01:18:23,520 --> 01:18:27,600
Speaker 3: sort of natural capital. Now, okay, it's like this is

1543
01:18:27,640 --> 01:18:29,280
Speaker 3: this is in some sense, you know, I was like, okay,

1544
01:18:29,280 --> 01:18:31,439
Speaker 3: what like who cares about this? This is kind of like

1545
01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:37,000
Speaker 3: this this seems very obvious. But there's also a macroeconomics

1546
01:18:37,040 --> 01:18:42,160
Speaker 3: perspective which is very different. And the macroeconomics perspective holds that,

1547
01:18:42,240 --> 01:18:44,679
Speaker 3: you know, rent isn't a payment for capital at all.

1548
01:18:45,040 --> 01:18:49,679
Speaker 3: It's something paid to landowners by capitalists. And the rent

1549
01:18:49,880 --> 01:18:54,400
Speaker 3: that these landowners get is basically the difference between you know,

1550
01:18:54,479 --> 01:18:56,559
Speaker 3: what it costs you to get the oil out of

1551
01:18:56,560 --> 01:18:58,120
Speaker 3: that you use sort of the landowner to get the

1552
01:18:58,160 --> 01:18:59,720
Speaker 3: oil out of the ground, and what it costs the

1553
01:18:59,760 --> 01:19:02,320
Speaker 3: person who has the highest price of production to get

1554
01:19:02,320 --> 01:19:05,400
Speaker 3: the oil out of the ground. Now, okay, for reasons

1555
01:19:05,439 --> 01:19:08,280
Speaker 3: that are very complicated that I can't get into here. Basically,

1556
01:19:08,320 --> 01:19:11,519
Speaker 3: the person who is like the worst at getting oil

1557
01:19:11,560 --> 01:19:13,400
Speaker 3: out of the ground is the person who sets what

1558
01:19:13,439 --> 01:19:18,000
Speaker 3: the price of oil is. So you know, the sort

1559
01:19:18,000 --> 01:19:20,800
Speaker 3: of like highest possible extraction price tends to be the price.

1560
01:19:20,880 --> 01:19:24,960
Speaker 3: And then you know the micro the sort of macroeconomic

1561
01:19:25,280 --> 01:19:29,240
Speaker 3: analysis of what rent is, right is that it's a

1562
01:19:29,280 --> 01:19:32,400
Speaker 3: thing that capitalists pay to landowners who own natural resources,

1563
01:19:32,439 --> 01:19:34,160
Speaker 3: and the amount of money they get is based on

1564
01:19:34,200 --> 01:19:38,160
Speaker 3: how much cheaper it is for like that you know,

1565
01:19:38,280 --> 01:19:40,559
Speaker 3: that landlord to get their oil out of the ground

1566
01:19:40,560 --> 01:19:42,840
Speaker 3: than it is for like the landlord who's like the

1567
01:19:42,880 --> 01:19:46,000
Speaker 3: worst at this. And this is a real question, right.

1568
01:19:46,160 --> 01:19:49,680
Speaker 3: The question is is someone who's getting rent paid to them,

1569
01:19:50,000 --> 01:19:53,600
Speaker 3: is that rent payment for capital that they own or

1570
01:19:53,720 --> 01:19:56,760
Speaker 3: is it money from capitalists that capitalists have to pay

1571
01:19:56,800 --> 01:20:00,599
Speaker 3: to a non capitalist class. And cornials answer is like, well,

1572
01:20:00,600 --> 01:20:03,679
Speaker 3: obviously rent is distracted from surplus value because out because

1573
01:20:03,720 --> 01:20:08,599
Speaker 3: landouners don't produce value. But there's two different sort of

1574
01:20:08,800 --> 01:20:13,240
Speaker 3: places that they can get this value from. And this

1575
01:20:13,280 --> 01:20:15,200
Speaker 3: is where we have to get into something that's kind

1576
01:20:15,200 --> 01:20:20,280
Speaker 3: of weird, and that is the two different kinds of rents.

1577
01:20:20,320 --> 01:20:22,400
Speaker 3: But okay, before we get into the two kinds of

1578
01:20:22,439 --> 01:20:24,280
Speaker 3: different rents, do you know what else there's two different

1579
01:20:24,360 --> 01:20:27,800
Speaker 3: kinds of Yeah, that's right. It is the products and

1580
01:20:27,840 --> 01:20:29,320
Speaker 3: services that support this show.

1581
01:20:30,880 --> 01:20:31,760
Speaker 2: And we're back.

1582
01:20:31,800 --> 01:20:34,960
Speaker 3: I hope you have enjoyed both of the different kinds

1583
01:20:35,000 --> 01:20:39,360
Speaker 3: of products and services that support the show. And okay,

1584
01:20:39,439 --> 01:20:42,000
Speaker 3: I promise you two kinds of rents, and I'm now

1585
01:20:42,000 --> 01:20:46,000
Speaker 3: going to give you two kinds of rent. So the

1586
01:20:46,040 --> 01:20:49,799
Speaker 3: two kinds of rent, there is something called differential rent,

1587
01:20:50,560 --> 01:20:52,840
Speaker 3: and differential rent is kind of close to the sort

1588
01:20:52,880 --> 01:20:56,880
Speaker 3: of macroctive we talked about earlier. So differential rent is

1589
01:20:56,960 --> 01:21:00,360
Speaker 3: rent that's set by the price of production on the

1590
01:21:00,400 --> 01:21:03,400
Speaker 3: market right now, as we sort of mentioned, prices tend

1591
01:21:03,439 --> 01:21:05,760
Speaker 3: towards the highest price of production e's scept by the

1592
01:21:05,760 --> 01:21:08,920
Speaker 3: people who are worse to producing it. And differential rent

1593
01:21:08,960 --> 01:21:10,799
Speaker 3: is the rent that the rest of the market gets

1594
01:21:11,160 --> 01:21:13,760
Speaker 3: by costing it by you know, by it costing less

1595
01:21:13,800 --> 01:21:16,200
Speaker 3: for them to extract oil than it does, you know

1596
01:21:17,080 --> 01:21:22,479
Speaker 3: for someone who's like the worst at extracting oil. Corneil

1597
01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:25,280
Speaker 3: explains these in terms of it. For a long time,

1598
01:21:25,320 --> 01:21:27,759
Speaker 3: the US was sort of the price leader of oil,

1599
01:21:27,960 --> 01:21:29,840
Speaker 3: and it was the price leader of oil because the

1600
01:21:29,880 --> 01:21:33,920
Speaker 3: American like property right system is so absolutely bonkers that

1601
01:21:34,000 --> 01:21:34,639
Speaker 3: it makes it.

1602
01:21:34,560 --> 01:21:35,320
Speaker 1: Really really hard.

1603
01:21:35,320 --> 01:21:38,000
Speaker 3: You have to like you have to like individually negotiate

1604
01:21:38,040 --> 01:21:40,360
Speaker 3: with like every person who owns a cow pasture a

1605
01:21:40,439 --> 01:21:44,240
Speaker 3: Nebraska in order to sort of like extract oil from them.

1606
01:21:44,240 --> 01:21:47,400
Speaker 3: And this makes the production process like very expensive. And

1607
01:21:47,479 --> 01:21:49,800
Speaker 3: so everyone else in the world is getting this differential

1608
01:21:49,840 --> 01:21:53,840
Speaker 3: rent because they have like a less completely like just

1609
01:21:54,520 --> 01:21:55,640
Speaker 3: wild system of.

1610
01:21:57,120 --> 01:21:57,640
Speaker 2: Property.

1611
01:21:58,040 --> 01:22:01,240
Speaker 3: So the product of this that everyone else is getting

1612
01:22:01,240 --> 01:22:03,479
Speaker 3: differential rent because it's way cheaper for them to produce

1613
01:22:03,520 --> 01:22:05,360
Speaker 3: oil than it is for the US to produce oil.

1614
01:22:05,920 --> 01:22:08,760
Speaker 3: So differential rent is a product of your efficiency, right,

1615
01:22:08,920 --> 01:22:11,600
Speaker 3: It's how it's an amount of money that's based on

1616
01:22:11,640 --> 01:22:13,120
Speaker 3: sort of the price of oil, and it's based on

1617
01:22:13,160 --> 01:22:15,680
Speaker 3: how much better you know, because you're still selling the

1618
01:22:15,680 --> 01:22:17,880
Speaker 3: oil at that like the same price, right, But the

1619
01:22:17,960 --> 01:22:20,720
Speaker 3: amount that you get, you know, the amount of rent

1620
01:22:20,760 --> 01:22:22,880
Speaker 3: that you get is the difference between how much it

1621
01:22:22,920 --> 01:22:24,880
Speaker 3: costs you to get this oil out of the grant

1622
01:22:24,920 --> 01:22:29,080
Speaker 3: and how much it costs like some sort of American

1623
01:22:29,120 --> 01:22:31,160
Speaker 3: dip shit. You have to spend all this time negotiating

1624
01:22:31,240 --> 01:22:35,040
Speaker 3: with like thirty thousand individual landowners in the US to

1625
01:22:35,080 --> 01:22:39,200
Speaker 3: do it. So that that's differential rents. But there's also

1626
01:22:39,320 --> 01:22:44,040
Speaker 3: something called absolute rent. Now, absolute rent is very, very

1627
01:22:44,160 --> 01:22:49,800
Speaker 3: very different from from differential rent because absolute rent is

1628
01:22:49,840 --> 01:22:53,400
Speaker 3: not really determined by sort of production prices or like

1629
01:22:53,479 --> 01:22:56,759
Speaker 3: the market or supply and demand at all. Absolute rent

1630
01:22:56,800 --> 01:23:00,600
Speaker 3: is determined by the social power of the landowner. And

1631
01:23:00,720 --> 01:23:04,320
Speaker 3: this has really interesting effects, right, because again, absolute rent

1632
01:23:04,479 --> 01:23:07,439
Speaker 3: isn't based on the production process and is instead based

1633
01:23:07,560 --> 01:23:12,439
Speaker 3: on you know, the social it's it's a social product

1634
01:23:12,479 --> 01:23:18,480
Speaker 3: of power. And this, you know, this means that landlords

1635
01:23:18,479 --> 01:23:21,400
Speaker 3: and rent extractors can do something that capitalists aren't supposed

1636
01:23:21,439 --> 01:23:23,760
Speaker 3: to be able to do. They can get profits that

1637
01:23:23,800 --> 01:23:26,320
Speaker 3: are larger than the general rate of profit, and they

1638
01:23:26,320 --> 01:23:29,120
Speaker 3: could do it just by virtue of being powerful and

1639
01:23:29,200 --> 01:23:33,439
Speaker 3: owning land. And this has a bunch of very very

1640
01:23:33,439 --> 01:23:34,360
Speaker 3: weird knock on effects.

1641
01:23:34,439 --> 01:23:34,559
Speaker 5: Right.

1642
01:23:34,560 --> 01:23:37,080
Speaker 3: If you've ever seen landlords talk about rent, right, you've

1643
01:23:37,080 --> 01:23:40,439
Speaker 3: seen the consequences of this. These people genuinely believe that

1644
01:23:40,479 --> 01:23:43,559
Speaker 3: they have a sort of moral right to returns with

1645
01:23:43,680 --> 01:23:46,000
Speaker 3: no risk all of the time, and that all of

1646
01:23:46,080 --> 01:23:48,519
Speaker 3: society should be structured in such a way as to

1647
01:23:48,640 --> 01:23:51,160
Speaker 3: guarantee that they have this free income that they do

1648
01:23:51,200 --> 01:23:54,000
Speaker 3: fucking nothing to do other than own buildings, and it

1649
01:23:54,000 --> 01:23:56,040
Speaker 3: should be guaranteed, you know, it should be structured to

1650
01:23:56,040 --> 01:23:59,360
Speaker 3: guarantee this by forcing tenants to pay rent no literally,

1651
01:23:59,400 --> 01:24:03,880
Speaker 3: no matter what is happening, you know, like regardless of shit,

1652
01:24:04,000 --> 01:24:05,280
Speaker 3: like I don't know, a pandemic.

1653
01:24:07,600 --> 01:24:07,880
Speaker 2: Now.

1654
01:24:08,400 --> 01:24:11,280
Speaker 3: The other sort of important difference is that is the

1655
01:24:11,360 --> 01:24:14,240
Speaker 3: absolute rent does not obey the laws of supply and demand.

1656
01:24:14,560 --> 01:24:16,880
Speaker 3: It is a product of social power, you know, it's

1657
01:24:16,920 --> 01:24:20,639
Speaker 3: the power of landownership itself. And it's also sort of

1658
01:24:20,680 --> 01:24:23,000
Speaker 3: the power you know that the social power. It's not

1659
01:24:23,040 --> 01:24:25,360
Speaker 3: just purely the product of light ownership. It's also a

1660
01:24:25,360 --> 01:24:29,080
Speaker 3: product of the organization of the landowning class and the

1661
01:24:29,160 --> 01:24:30,920
Speaker 3: extent to which they're backed by the state and you know,

1662
01:24:31,120 --> 01:24:35,840
Speaker 3: sort of militaries as polices. And this causes economists who

1663
01:24:35,880 --> 01:24:40,160
Speaker 3: are attempting to use supply and demand to explain rent

1664
01:24:40,479 --> 01:24:44,840
Speaker 3: to get very very important events very wrong. One of

1665
01:24:44,920 --> 01:24:47,639
Speaker 3: the things that Corneal points out is that Maurice Adelman,

1666
01:24:47,720 --> 01:24:52,640
Speaker 3: who is a very very famous oil economist predicts in

1667
01:24:52,720 --> 01:24:55,719
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy two that the price of oil is going

1668
01:24:55,760 --> 01:25:01,559
Speaker 3: to collapse based on over supply and competition. Instead, the

1669
01:25:01,600 --> 01:25:04,080
Speaker 3: price of oil between nineteen seventy three and nineteen seventy

1670
01:25:04,120 --> 01:25:07,719
Speaker 3: four increases by four hundred percents because oil produces banded

1671
01:25:07,800 --> 01:25:11,800
Speaker 3: together to exercise their power, and this organization, known as

1672
01:25:11,800 --> 01:25:16,880
Speaker 3: OPEK becomes a genuine world power. Here's how Corineil puts it.

1673
01:25:17,760 --> 01:25:20,840
Speaker 3: The sharp increase of nineteen seventy three and nineteen seventy

1674
01:25:20,840 --> 01:25:23,559
Speaker 3: four in oil prices did not result from a world

1675
01:25:23,560 --> 01:25:26,840
Speaker 3: shortage of oil. It was rather the outcome of a

1676
01:25:26,920 --> 01:25:31,080
Speaker 3: long historical process by which OPEC nations, acting as landowners,

1677
01:25:31,640 --> 01:25:34,360
Speaker 3: developed the means to extract a rent on the basis

1678
01:25:34,400 --> 01:25:38,800
Speaker 3: of their ownership of the oil fields, an absolute rent

1679
01:25:39,200 --> 01:25:42,120
Speaker 3: in addition to the differential rents they collected in the past.

1680
01:25:42,960 --> 01:25:45,800
Speaker 3: In nineteen seventy three, a seat of converging political and

1681
01:25:45,880 --> 01:25:50,320
Speaker 3: economic conditions helped establish their collective ability to restrict the

1682
01:25:50,320 --> 01:25:54,160
Speaker 3: world's supply of oil. With this power, OPEK felt entitled

1683
01:25:54,160 --> 01:25:57,719
Speaker 3: to set market prices of oil, thus freeing the level

1684
01:25:57,760 --> 01:26:00,400
Speaker 3: of rent from the previous constraint of the market price

1685
01:26:01,080 --> 01:26:05,320
Speaker 3: now rent itself absolute and differential would come to determine

1686
01:26:05,320 --> 01:26:10,160
Speaker 3: the market price of oil. Now you may be asking yourself, Bia,

1687
01:26:10,439 --> 01:26:14,559
Speaker 3: this is all well and good for describing the price,

1688
01:26:15,920 --> 01:26:18,720
Speaker 3: for describing how the price of oil changes, but what

1689
01:26:18,760 --> 01:26:21,559
Speaker 3: does this have to do with me? And the answer

1690
01:26:21,680 --> 01:26:24,840
Speaker 3: is that while Corneal is specifically focused on resource rants

1691
01:26:24,880 --> 01:26:27,240
Speaker 3: for obvious reasons, he is doing a study of the

1692
01:26:27,280 --> 01:26:31,000
Speaker 3: state of Venezuela, you can apply his analysis to the

1693
01:26:31,080 --> 01:26:32,519
Speaker 3: kind of rent that we all pay.

1694
01:26:33,240 --> 01:26:34,240
Speaker 5: If you follow.

1695
01:26:34,120 --> 01:26:38,559
Speaker 3: Corneal's conclusions about absolute rent through to the American rental market,

1696
01:26:39,080 --> 01:26:42,880
Speaker 3: it produces startlingly different conclusions about the source and sort

1697
01:26:42,880 --> 01:26:45,200
Speaker 3: of nature of the so called housing crisis that are

1698
01:26:45,240 --> 01:26:48,920
Speaker 3: traditionally presented. If rent levels are a product of the

1699
01:26:48,960 --> 01:26:53,160
Speaker 3: social power of the landlord class, the behavior that's otherwise inexplicable,

1700
01:26:53,200 --> 01:26:55,560
Speaker 3: like landlords sitting on empty properties instead of renting the

1701
01:26:55,560 --> 01:27:00,479
Speaker 3: amount at lower rates, suddenly become clear. Armed with the

1702
01:27:00,520 --> 01:27:03,000
Speaker 3: backing of the state's secure at social power by carrying

1703
01:27:03,000 --> 01:27:06,040
Speaker 3: out evictions, and with the state's implicit backing to carry

1704
01:27:06,040 --> 01:27:10,240
Speaker 3: out technically illegal evictions, landlords can extract both differential and

1705
01:27:10,360 --> 01:27:13,680
Speaker 3: absolute rent, allowing them to tell the market to take

1706
01:27:13,720 --> 01:27:16,960
Speaker 3: a hike and setting ever increasing rents that renters have

1707
01:27:17,000 --> 01:27:19,160
Speaker 3: no choice but to pay or be swept aside in

1708
01:27:19,280 --> 01:27:23,880
Speaker 3: brutal anti homeless rays. This has massive consequences on any

1709
01:27:24,000 --> 01:27:27,880
Speaker 3: potential strategy to reduce rent. Opek, remember, was able to

1710
01:27:28,000 --> 01:27:30,320
Speaker 3: use its social power to increase the price of oil

1711
01:27:30,360 --> 01:27:32,680
Speaker 3: by four hundred percent even in a period where the

1712
01:27:32,760 --> 01:27:36,640
Speaker 3: actual supply of oil was enormous, by pure virtue of

1713
01:27:36,800 --> 01:27:41,080
Speaker 3: organization and the power of their landownership. While American landlords

1714
01:27:41,080 --> 01:27:44,120
Speaker 3: are certainly weaker unless organized than OPEK, their social power

1715
01:27:44,160 --> 01:27:46,800
Speaker 3: is still such that increasing supply is not guaranteed to

1716
01:27:46,840 --> 01:27:49,479
Speaker 3: drive down prices, because in a situation governed by the

1717
01:27:49,520 --> 01:27:53,400
Speaker 3: extraction of absolute rent, rent is not determined by prices.

1718
01:27:53,600 --> 01:27:59,840
Speaker 3: Prices are determined by rent. On the other hand, this

1719
01:28:00,120 --> 01:28:02,559
Speaker 3: means that you can reduce rent by breaking the social

1720
01:28:02,600 --> 01:28:05,920
Speaker 3: power of the landlord, and indeed, even in very hot

1721
01:28:05,960 --> 01:28:09,839
Speaker 3: housing markets like Toronto and Los Angeles, this strategy canon

1722
01:28:09,880 --> 01:28:14,240
Speaker 3: has worked. Tenants unions which deploy the power of collective

1723
01:28:14,240 --> 01:28:17,040
Speaker 3: bargaining and the social solidarity of renters to combat the

1724
01:28:17,040 --> 01:28:21,799
Speaker 3: power of landlords, have succeeded in reducing rents, and can

1725
01:28:21,840 --> 01:28:24,920
Speaker 3: and will continue to do so. But these efforts are

1726
01:28:24,920 --> 01:28:27,400
Speaker 3: only the beginning of a process that finally answers the

1727
01:28:27,439 --> 01:28:30,840
Speaker 3: question why are rents so high. If rents are high

1728
01:28:30,880 --> 01:28:33,000
Speaker 3: because of the social power of landlords, the way to

1729
01:28:33,000 --> 01:28:35,200
Speaker 3: bring rents down is to crush the batters completely and

1730
01:28:35,280 --> 01:28:38,240
Speaker 3: appropriate them, to seize every last building and plot of

1731
01:28:38,320 --> 01:28:41,080
Speaker 3: land from every landlord in the country and drive them

1732
01:28:41,120 --> 01:28:43,519
Speaker 3: as a class from the political mainstream into the pages

1733
01:28:43,560 --> 01:28:46,519
Speaker 3: of history. And then, and this is crucial, not to

1734
01:28:46,560 --> 01:28:49,839
Speaker 3: replace them with another landowning class, or, as the Leninists

1735
01:28:49,840 --> 01:28:52,360
Speaker 3: proposed that it actually did, replace them with the state.

1736
01:28:53,200 --> 01:28:56,440
Speaker 3: Only by destroying the category of landlord, not by regulating

1737
01:28:56,439 --> 01:28:59,439
Speaker 3: it or nationalizing it. Can we finally escape the long

1738
01:28:59,520 --> 01:29:02,960
Speaker 3: nightmare of rents and enter a world where people's ability

1739
01:29:03,000 --> 01:29:05,920
Speaker 3: to live is determined not by the sort of capricious

1740
01:29:05,920 --> 01:29:09,920
Speaker 3: and arbitrary will of a small class of landowners put

1741
01:29:09,960 --> 01:29:13,280
Speaker 3: on their human need for housing. This has been it

1742
01:29:13,280 --> 01:29:16,919
Speaker 3: could happen here. You can find us in the usual places,

1743
01:29:17,160 --> 01:29:21,760
Speaker 3: and yes, go into the world and make the world

1744
01:29:21,840 --> 01:29:32,200
Speaker 3: without rented reality.

1745
01:29:34,160 --> 01:29:34,599
Speaker 7: And everyone.

1746
01:29:34,720 --> 01:29:38,720
Speaker 6: It's me James today, and I'm talking to Derm Cosgrove

1747
01:29:39,040 --> 01:29:43,439
Speaker 6: about Wagner and Wagner, they the Russian Mercenary Group and

1748
01:29:43,479 --> 01:29:46,920
Speaker 6: their actions in Africa. This is something that I've kind

1749
01:29:46,920 --> 01:29:49,599
Speaker 6: of tried to pitch for several years with not much

1750
01:29:49,680 --> 01:29:52,559
Speaker 6: success in the United States media, and I'm sure lots

1751
01:29:52,560 --> 01:29:54,679
Speaker 6: of other people have two by no means unique in that.

1752
01:29:55,040 --> 01:29:58,360
Speaker 6: And suddenly, obviously everyone in the corporate media has become

1753
01:29:58,400 --> 01:30:01,320
Speaker 6: something of an expert in their action when things started

1754
01:30:01,320 --> 01:30:04,280
Speaker 6: happening in Ukraine. And so what we wanted to do

1755
01:30:04,320 --> 01:30:06,800
Speaker 6: here was kind of paint a picture of how they

1756
01:30:06,880 --> 01:30:10,040
Speaker 6: have a long record of human rights abuse, and Dermot's

1757
01:30:10,080 --> 01:30:11,679
Speaker 6: more expert in Africa, so that's what we're talking about,

1758
01:30:11,720 --> 01:30:14,599
Speaker 6: but also in Syria, of course, and I just wanted

1759
01:30:14,600 --> 01:30:17,160
Speaker 6: to give some more information. So we recorded this on

1760
01:30:17,680 --> 01:30:20,400
Speaker 6: last Friday. Today it's Tuesday, the first of August, and

1761
01:30:20,840 --> 01:30:23,800
Speaker 6: we talked a little bit about the Coup Nijier, which

1762
01:30:23,840 --> 01:30:29,360
Speaker 6: has continued and since we recorded, Getty Pregausian, who of

1763
01:30:29,360 --> 01:30:32,759
Speaker 6: course is the head of Wagner, the founder of Wagner

1764
01:30:32,760 --> 01:30:36,960
Speaker 6: that Oligarch is in charge of that private military contracting group,

1765
01:30:37,720 --> 01:30:39,960
Speaker 6: made a statements sort of not exactly saying like, oh, yeah,

1766
01:30:39,960 --> 01:30:42,760
Speaker 6: we did this coup, but more like saying oh cool,

1767
01:30:42,800 --> 01:30:44,880
Speaker 6: I see you've had a coup. What you could use

1768
01:30:45,160 --> 01:30:47,120
Speaker 6: is a group of mercenary Russians who are prepared to

1769
01:30:47,120 --> 01:30:49,840
Speaker 6: do incredible and horrific violence on your behalf and let

1770
01:30:49,960 --> 01:30:54,439
Speaker 6: us know. We'll roll up. Also, since then Ekowas, which

1771
01:30:54,520 --> 01:30:57,640
Speaker 6: is the Economic Community of West African State, it's a

1772
01:30:57,640 --> 01:31:02,960
Speaker 6: West African block there threatened intervention in Nize if they

1773
01:31:03,000 --> 01:31:06,880
Speaker 6: don't sort of return to a democratic process. And then

1774
01:31:06,960 --> 01:31:09,720
Speaker 6: Mali earned Bookina Faso to other countries that are run

1775
01:31:09,760 --> 01:31:14,360
Speaker 6: by military government's military more or less hunters have threatened

1776
01:31:14,400 --> 01:31:17,840
Speaker 6: have said they'll stand with Niche, stand with the Niza coup.

1777
01:31:17,920 --> 01:31:21,679
Speaker 6: So it threatens to destabilize again the whole region. Right,

1778
01:31:21,840 --> 01:31:23,920
Speaker 6: You'll see lots of misinformation about this on Twitter. I've

1779
01:31:23,920 --> 01:31:26,719
Speaker 6: seen a ton of stuff from like oh just tanky

1780
01:31:26,720 --> 01:31:30,280
Speaker 6: accounts who don't fully have a grasp on what's happening

1781
01:31:30,640 --> 01:31:33,160
Speaker 6: in this part of the world. And I think it's

1782
01:31:33,439 --> 01:31:37,840
Speaker 6: quite dismissive to just use Africa to further your whatever

1783
01:31:37,880 --> 01:31:41,720
Speaker 6: your political agenda is, rather than treating this as a

1784
01:31:41,760 --> 01:31:45,559
Speaker 6: tragedy that will impact people living in these countries. Rights

1785
01:31:45,600 --> 01:31:49,400
Speaker 6: between Niche, where people are already often struggling to get by,

1786
01:31:49,520 --> 01:31:52,000
Speaker 6: really struggling to make ends meat like sanctions on this

1787
01:31:52,040 --> 01:31:55,000
Speaker 6: country will hurt them. Tanctions on this country will hurt

1788
01:31:55,000 --> 01:31:57,880
Speaker 6: the poorest people in this country. A military dictatorship rarely

1789
01:31:57,920 --> 01:32:01,280
Speaker 6: delivers a better quality of life for people, and I

1790
01:32:01,280 --> 01:32:03,360
Speaker 6: would like to see people focusing on that and not

1791
01:32:03,400 --> 01:32:09,200
Speaker 6: on some stupid argument about decononization, like it's that's not

1792
01:32:09,240 --> 01:32:13,400
Speaker 6: what's happening here. What's happening is the powerful people have

1793
01:32:13,439 --> 01:32:17,240
Speaker 6: wanted more power, and they've taken that at the expense

1794
01:32:17,280 --> 01:32:19,200
Speaker 6: of the quality of life and often the lives of

1795
01:32:19,320 --> 01:32:24,519
Speaker 6: other people. Obviously, with Mali and Bikina Faso saying that

1796
01:32:24,560 --> 01:32:27,200
Speaker 6: they would like support Nizia, those are both governments that

1797
01:32:27,240 --> 01:32:30,920
Speaker 6: struggle to support themselves and defend their own people and

1798
01:32:30,960 --> 01:32:36,200
Speaker 6: capitals from Islamist insurgencies and other like our movement. So

1799
01:32:37,240 --> 01:32:40,680
Speaker 6: you know, not a hugely I guess serious threat, but

1800
01:32:40,720 --> 01:32:43,840
Speaker 6: still very destabilizing and again like this will have negative

1801
01:32:43,880 --> 01:32:45,920
Speaker 6: impacts for everyone living there, which is the thing I'd

1802
01:32:45,960 --> 01:32:48,280
Speaker 6: like to focus on. So we're going to start here

1803
01:32:48,320 --> 01:32:50,840
Speaker 6: with introducing himself and then we'll go from there.

1804
01:32:53,640 --> 01:32:58,920
Speaker 8: My name is Jermat Koskov. I'm a French front Legion veteran.

1805
01:32:59,120 --> 01:33:02,559
Speaker 8: I was six years French Foreign Legion and since nineteen

1806
01:33:02,600 --> 01:33:07,120
Speaker 8: ninety six I've worked across Africa and the Middle East

1807
01:33:07,439 --> 01:33:10,400
Speaker 8: and a little bit of South Asia as a security

1808
01:33:10,439 --> 01:33:16,160
Speaker 8: consultant and field security advisor, mainly with oil and gas

1809
01:33:16,200 --> 01:33:21,719
Speaker 8: companies infrastructure companies, but also some work with the media. Nice.

1810
01:33:21,960 --> 01:33:27,439
Speaker 6: Yeah, so I've been a journalist covering that field for

1811
01:33:27,640 --> 01:33:30,920
Speaker 6: not quite long. But one of the things that I

1812
01:33:31,040 --> 01:33:35,080
Speaker 6: remember seeing in a pre pandemic is this rise of

1813
01:33:35,080 --> 01:33:39,320
Speaker 6: this Russian mercenary group, bargainer group in Africa. It was

1814
01:33:39,400 --> 01:33:43,439
Speaker 6: just not an area of interest in any US publication. Generally,

1815
01:33:43,560 --> 01:33:45,559
Speaker 6: stories in Africa are very hard to sell. But I

1816
01:33:45,600 --> 01:33:48,160
Speaker 6: know that you are obviously on the ground looking at this,

1817
01:33:48,280 --> 01:33:50,599
Speaker 6: So can you maybe just start with when you sort

1818
01:33:50,600 --> 01:33:54,080
Speaker 6: of first became aware of them and what you were seeing?

1819
01:33:56,439 --> 01:33:59,400
Speaker 8: Well, I first became aware of them with their activities

1820
01:33:59,439 --> 01:34:03,960
Speaker 8: and the cent African Republic when the when the the

1821
01:34:04,080 --> 01:34:07,280
Speaker 8: Mayhem broke up there a few years ago and the

1822
01:34:07,560 --> 01:34:11,160
Speaker 8: EU started sending in troops, There's quite a lot of

1823
01:34:11,160 --> 01:34:15,439
Speaker 8: heavy fighting. Then it's it stabilized a little bit, but

1824
01:34:15,479 --> 01:34:17,360
Speaker 8: there was still quite a lot of fighting going on.

1825
01:34:18,040 --> 01:34:22,360
Speaker 8: Next thing, these Russians shot up and it was just

1826
01:34:23,080 --> 01:34:25,880
Speaker 8: a little bit kind of Yeah, I'd heard about them

1827
01:34:26,000 --> 01:34:29,960
Speaker 8: in operating in Syria, but you know, next thing, they're in,

1828
01:34:30,080 --> 01:34:33,360
Speaker 8: of all places, the Central African Republic, which you know

1829
01:34:33,640 --> 01:34:38,479
Speaker 8: is a it's kind of is you know a little

1830
01:34:38,520 --> 01:34:41,280
Speaker 8: bit of a backwater in the middle of Africa. It's

1831
01:34:41,320 --> 01:34:46,000
Speaker 8: it's squashed in between Chad, Rwanda, Burundi, the Congo, places

1832
01:34:46,040 --> 01:34:52,200
Speaker 8: like that, and it's historically it's it's been there's always

1833
01:34:52,200 --> 01:34:56,280
Speaker 8: been a French French presence there, but it's always been

1834
01:34:56,320 --> 01:34:58,479
Speaker 8: a place where there's been quite a bit of conflict

1835
01:34:58,520 --> 01:34:58,920
Speaker 8: around it.

1836
01:34:59,640 --> 01:34:59,880
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1837
01:35:00,479 --> 01:35:06,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, not like a consolidated like nation state really yeah. Yeah,

1838
01:35:06,320 --> 01:35:08,320
Speaker 6: a lot of a lot of different people and it

1839
01:35:08,520 --> 01:35:10,759
Speaker 6: is not an identity that like fixed with with identities

1840
01:35:10,760 --> 01:35:14,040
Speaker 6: on the ground and necessarily so yeah, what was their

1841
01:35:14,160 --> 01:35:16,960
Speaker 6: role there? What were they they doing as like a

1842
01:35:17,200 --> 01:35:19,320
Speaker 6: mercenary or private military contracting group.

1843
01:35:20,479 --> 01:35:24,240
Speaker 8: Well, they they were really operating a bit in the shadows.

1844
01:35:24,280 --> 01:35:27,960
Speaker 8: They were they had come in Apparently they were supposedly

1845
01:35:28,000 --> 01:35:32,000
Speaker 8: there to train the governments, the Republican Guard, of the

1846
01:35:32,280 --> 01:35:36,479
Speaker 8: of the presidential Guard, but they were also there was

1847
01:35:36,520 --> 01:35:39,200
Speaker 8: also words starting to leak out where they were involved

1848
01:35:39,200 --> 01:35:44,120
Speaker 8: in the diaming mines and they you know, they were

1849
01:35:44,439 --> 01:35:46,920
Speaker 8: they were moving all over the country. They were heavily

1850
01:35:46,920 --> 01:35:50,920
Speaker 8: involved in militias. Then words started coming out about, you know,

1851
01:35:51,160 --> 01:35:55,320
Speaker 8: there was murders on checkpoints that were joint checkpoints between

1852
01:35:56,200 --> 01:36:02,320
Speaker 8: government militias and Wagner Group operatives. And next thing, this

1853
01:36:02,439 --> 01:36:07,320
Speaker 8: story broke where three journalists, three Russian journalists disappeared. They'd

1854
01:36:07,360 --> 01:36:10,840
Speaker 8: been following the activities of Wagner in Central Africa, and

1855
01:36:11,439 --> 01:36:13,040
Speaker 8: I think the last thing that we've seen of them

1856
01:36:13,760 --> 01:36:17,479
Speaker 8: was that they were stopped at a checkpoint and then gone.

1857
01:36:17,960 --> 01:36:21,960
Speaker 8: There was just they disappeared in the bush, and that

1858
01:36:22,160 --> 01:36:24,479
Speaker 8: was I suppose that was kind of the first peak

1859
01:36:24,520 --> 01:36:28,439
Speaker 8: that these are a nasty bunch of operators. And there

1860
01:36:28,479 --> 01:36:31,880
Speaker 8: had been a company in Russia years ago who were

1861
01:36:32,000 --> 01:36:35,280
Speaker 8: the Alpha Group, and they had basically they were basically

1862
01:36:35,400 --> 01:36:39,519
Speaker 8: the Afghan veterans. Well they operated kind of in the

1863
01:36:39,560 --> 01:36:43,360
Speaker 8: shady Ali Guard section of Royal security in Russia itself.

1864
01:36:43,880 --> 01:36:46,679
Speaker 8: But Wagner Group were a completely different animal. You could

1865
01:36:46,680 --> 01:36:50,599
Speaker 8: tell from the right from the start these were they

1866
01:36:50,600 --> 01:36:51,840
Speaker 8: had a different model.

1867
01:36:52,920 --> 01:36:55,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, very much so, and like a different model to

1868
01:36:55,960 --> 01:37:00,680
Speaker 6: even like there are various I guess, like national perspectives

1869
01:37:00,680 --> 01:37:04,280
Speaker 6: to private military contracting. Like there was a time when you,

1870
01:37:04,360 --> 01:37:06,600
Speaker 6: like you could sit down in a hotel, bar and

1871
01:37:06,640 --> 01:37:09,200
Speaker 6: lots of places in Africa and be assured that someone

1872
01:37:09,240 --> 01:37:12,160
Speaker 6: with a South African accent or someone who would claim

1873
01:37:12,240 --> 01:37:14,439
Speaker 6: to be from Rhodesia would like come and talk to

1874
01:37:14,479 --> 01:37:16,000
Speaker 6: you and that was their industry and they would say

1875
01:37:16,000 --> 01:37:20,400
Speaker 6: some racist shit. It's hard for me to not like

1876
01:37:20,479 --> 01:37:22,439
Speaker 6: hear a South African accent and be like, oh, fucking

1877
01:37:22,479 --> 01:37:23,760
Speaker 6: I don't want to have anything to do with this.

1878
01:37:24,200 --> 01:37:27,439
Speaker 6: But obviously that doesn't define everyone from South Africa by

1879
01:37:27,479 --> 01:37:30,120
Speaker 6: any means. But yeah, like there was that, there was

1880
01:37:30,200 --> 01:37:33,360
Speaker 6: there were a lot of Colombian people in that industry

1881
01:37:33,840 --> 01:37:37,559
Speaker 6: as sort of the civil warring Columbia became. But these

1882
01:37:37,600 --> 01:37:41,920
Speaker 6: guys are kind of different, right, Like they seem to

1883
01:37:41,920 --> 01:37:46,160
Speaker 6: be operating more like on behalf of governments or people

1884
01:37:46,200 --> 01:37:48,000
Speaker 6: who would be in government, who would like to be

1885
01:37:48,040 --> 01:37:52,439
Speaker 6: in government. Yeah and m yeah, explain how they do

1886
01:37:52,479 --> 01:37:53,439
Speaker 6: shit just differently.

1887
01:37:54,640 --> 01:38:00,800
Speaker 8: Well, they seem to have taken the well you'll be

1888
01:38:00,800 --> 01:38:06,519
Speaker 8: familiar with executive outcomes the South African Mercenary Organization and

1889
01:38:07,560 --> 01:38:11,120
Speaker 8: executive oucomes business model was when they operated, they went

1890
01:38:11,160 --> 01:38:14,760
Speaker 8: to the client and said, right, okay, we'll sort out

1891
01:38:14,800 --> 01:38:18,160
Speaker 8: your problem, but we want a percentage. It wasn't a

1892
01:38:18,160 --> 01:38:21,400
Speaker 8: paycheck or a contract kind of a grade dollar sum

1893
01:38:21,479 --> 01:38:25,440
Speaker 8: for for a contract. It was they wanted a percentage

1894
01:38:25,760 --> 01:38:29,040
Speaker 8: so they would clear like executive ocomes cleared out some

1895
01:38:29,080 --> 01:38:31,720
Speaker 8: of the diamond fields in and Gola, and I think

1896
01:38:31,800 --> 01:38:35,559
Speaker 8: they're going rate with something like fifteen percent. Wagner Groups

1897
01:38:35,560 --> 01:38:39,160
Speaker 8: seemed to have done that, taken that model, but at

1898
01:38:39,200 --> 01:38:41,479
Speaker 8: the same time they've rolled in a little bit of

1899
01:38:41,600 --> 01:38:47,879
Speaker 8: the Blackwater type idea in Iraq where they were operating

1900
01:38:47,960 --> 01:38:51,599
Speaker 8: us an arm of Blackwater, operating us an RMS government.

1901
01:38:52,720 --> 01:38:59,880
Speaker 8: They were Paul Bremner's personal guard and or Wagner seemed

1902
01:38:59,880 --> 01:39:05,519
Speaker 8: to have of combined the two along with making Hollywood movies,

1903
01:39:06,040 --> 01:39:10,240
Speaker 8: because they've made they've made a couple of movies, one

1904
01:39:10,240 --> 01:39:14,320
Speaker 8: about Central Africa and there you know, these Rambo esque

1905
01:39:14,520 --> 01:39:18,519
Speaker 8: kind of movies, and it's it's just it's like, what

1906
01:39:18,560 --> 01:39:19,759
Speaker 8: the hell is going on here?

1907
01:39:20,560 --> 01:39:23,840
Speaker 6: It's very strange. It's like, I think we maybe can't

1908
01:39:23,880 --> 01:39:28,519
Speaker 6: divorce it from that kind of like global war on

1909
01:39:28,640 --> 01:39:31,519
Speaker 6: terror for one of a better phrase like era kind

1910
01:39:31,560 --> 01:39:35,120
Speaker 6: of cult that developed around the US Special Forces and

1911
01:39:35,439 --> 01:39:38,479
Speaker 6: they're like, it's why you can buy Navy seal soap right,

1912
01:39:39,040 --> 01:39:41,840
Speaker 6: and like they've they tried to do a similar thing

1913
01:39:42,000 --> 01:39:45,160
Speaker 6: but with a private military contractor do you know, like

1914
01:39:45,439 --> 01:39:49,840
Speaker 6: the what's the composition of these most like PMCs from

1915
01:39:50,040 --> 01:39:52,680
Speaker 6: I guess Western nations will be ex military people. Is

1916
01:39:52,680 --> 01:39:55,120
Speaker 6: that the case with Wagner or where are they getting

1917
01:39:55,120 --> 01:39:55,679
Speaker 6: people from?

1918
01:39:56,000 --> 01:40:00,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's it's from what I've seen there. The people

1919
01:40:00,960 --> 01:40:03,120
Speaker 8: that brought in is that you've got a core group

1920
01:40:03,160 --> 01:40:08,479
Speaker 8: of Russians who come from the more elite units. Now

1921
01:40:08,680 --> 01:40:12,400
Speaker 8: they've been they've been really assigned to be the money

1922
01:40:12,479 --> 01:40:17,800
Speaker 8: making contracts in in Africa, so you know, they they've

1923
01:40:17,840 --> 01:40:23,080
Speaker 8: operated alongside Malian truce and the whole idea there is

1924
01:40:23,120 --> 01:40:25,519
Speaker 8: that if they do take control of zones in the

1925
01:40:25,600 --> 01:40:30,800
Speaker 8: Marian government dissing them a percentage of mineral, mineral section

1926
01:40:31,360 --> 01:40:34,759
Speaker 8: and whatever in the in the region, they've there's also

1927
01:40:34,800 --> 01:40:39,320
Speaker 8: been talk of there are blatant intimidation and protection rackets

1928
01:40:40,080 --> 01:40:44,120
Speaker 8: of other Western you know, Western companies working in the Sahel,

1929
01:40:44,520 --> 01:40:47,160
Speaker 8: so they'll rock up and kind of we'll look after you.

1930
01:40:48,120 --> 01:40:51,360
Speaker 8: Isis or I kinda won't get you if you pay

1931
01:40:51,439 --> 01:40:53,599
Speaker 8: us a fee, and then if the company goes well,

1932
01:40:53,880 --> 01:40:57,160
Speaker 8: you know that's crazy, then you know, suddenly attacks started happening.

1933
01:40:57,760 --> 01:40:59,920
Speaker 8: But they seem to be a core in in Africa

1934
01:41:00,040 --> 01:41:04,960
Speaker 8: police and in Libya where they were heavily involved, there

1935
01:41:05,040 --> 01:41:09,000
Speaker 8: was a core group of Russians who were there, and

1936
01:41:09,040 --> 01:41:15,679
Speaker 8: then surrounding them there was kind of lesser specialized, lesser

1937
01:41:15,720 --> 01:41:19,880
Speaker 8: specialized troops, lesser elite troops. And then in Libya, especially

1938
01:41:20,000 --> 01:41:22,240
Speaker 8: during the during the fighting there when they fought for

1939
01:41:22,360 --> 01:41:25,160
Speaker 8: half darkly for a half there, you had you know,

1940
01:41:25,200 --> 01:41:27,400
Speaker 8: they brought in Syrians, they were known to have got

1941
01:41:27,479 --> 01:41:32,400
Speaker 8: in a few other different nationalities of basical eyes. They

1942
01:41:32,520 --> 01:41:38,000
Speaker 8: gathered in other countries and offered jobs. Yeah, so you

1943
01:41:38,080 --> 01:41:42,240
Speaker 8: had I think there was about fifteen fifteen hundred two

1944
01:41:42,240 --> 01:41:47,160
Speaker 8: thousand Syrians at one point. Because there's these huge numbers

1945
01:41:47,160 --> 01:41:50,519
Speaker 8: of Wagner kind of been bandied about on maps and

1946
01:41:50,520 --> 01:41:54,559
Speaker 8: stuff like that on the Internet, and it's smoking mirrors.

1947
01:41:55,000 --> 01:42:00,320
Speaker 8: Actual proper Wagner personnel are wouldn't be massive numbers what

1948
01:42:00,360 --> 01:42:04,040
Speaker 8: they've got. You know, they're bringing these almost auxiliaries from

1949
01:42:04,200 --> 01:42:06,599
Speaker 8: the like to Syria or other places that they've been.

1950
01:42:06,479 --> 01:42:10,120
Speaker 6: In, right, Yeah, and they Another thing I guess there

1951
01:42:10,160 --> 01:42:12,760
Speaker 6: was unique about them was like with that they were

1952
01:42:12,800 --> 01:42:17,360
Speaker 6: obsessed with posting on telegram like I've never seen just

1953
01:42:17,479 --> 01:42:22,519
Speaker 6: incredibly online to include like evidence of their war crimes, right,

1954
01:42:22,520 --> 01:42:25,439
Speaker 6: which which I guess sometimes not at war at all,

1955
01:42:25,520 --> 01:42:28,840
Speaker 6: human rights abuses would probably be more accurate. Yeah, we

1956
01:42:28,880 --> 01:42:32,360
Speaker 6: should probably talk about some of those, just so people

1957
01:42:32,360 --> 01:42:34,000
Speaker 6: can get a sense of I think what I'd like

1958
01:42:34,040 --> 01:42:37,400
Speaker 6: people to take from this, just to like be explicit

1959
01:42:37,439 --> 01:42:39,759
Speaker 6: about it, I suppose, is that, like all this stuff

1960
01:42:39,880 --> 01:42:44,280
Speaker 6: was happening in Africa, there was no lack of evidence

1961
01:42:44,360 --> 01:42:46,439
Speaker 6: or people trying to say and it was not paid

1962
01:42:46,439 --> 01:42:49,320
Speaker 6: attention to by the government or media really, especially in

1963
01:42:49,320 --> 01:42:53,080
Speaker 6: the US, but also elsewhere. And then every already suddenly

1964
01:42:53,160 --> 01:42:55,800
Speaker 6: got sad when it happened in Ukraine because it was

1965
01:42:55,800 --> 01:42:58,639
Speaker 6: happening to people who were more valued. And I think

1966
01:42:59,160 --> 01:43:01,360
Speaker 6: we can we'll keep sucking up like that if we

1967
01:43:01,439 --> 01:43:02,600
Speaker 6: keep ignoring.

1968
01:43:03,760 --> 01:43:07,160
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean, I'm I'm

1969
01:43:07,200 --> 01:43:09,800
Speaker 8: shocked in a way that there hasn't been heavier sanctions

1970
01:43:09,840 --> 01:43:13,920
Speaker 8: put on because there's been there's been two UN investigations

1971
01:43:14,320 --> 01:43:15,160
Speaker 8: to their activities.

1972
01:43:15,160 --> 01:43:18,880
Speaker 11: There was the they murders, they were complicit in the

1973
01:43:18,960 --> 01:43:22,280
Speaker 11: murder or actively participated in the murder of over three

1974
01:43:22,360 --> 01:43:25,559
Speaker 11: hundred millions in a village only a few months ago.

1975
01:43:25,800 --> 01:43:29,400
Speaker 8: There's been a UN investigation. They've been found to have

1976
01:43:29,560 --> 01:43:33,840
Speaker 8: been there been participants in it, and there's nothing And

1977
01:43:34,120 --> 01:43:36,320
Speaker 8: you know, you're not seeing any UN sanctions, You're not

1978
01:43:36,600 --> 01:43:40,800
Speaker 8: you know, you're not seeing anything going on. The world

1979
01:43:40,840 --> 01:43:43,759
Speaker 8: seems to be turning a blind eye to it. In Libya.

1980
01:43:43,840 --> 01:43:47,719
Speaker 8: I mean, the BBC had had a report, a special

1981
01:43:47,760 --> 01:43:52,360
Speaker 8: report where they'd actually found the iPad of one of

1982
01:43:52,400 --> 01:43:55,840
Speaker 8: the Wagner operators with tons and tons and tons of

1983
01:43:55,840 --> 01:44:00,479
Speaker 8: evidence as to what they were doing, numerous human rights abuses,

1984
01:44:00,720 --> 01:44:04,920
Speaker 8: and again it's just like, yeah, that's fine, we won't

1985
01:44:04,960 --> 01:44:07,400
Speaker 8: really worry about it. Ops Ukraine.

1986
01:44:08,640 --> 01:44:12,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, and it's it seems shocking to people. I think

1987
01:44:12,360 --> 01:44:14,400
Speaker 6: if you're just a consumer of you know, the New

1988
01:44:14,479 --> 01:44:16,960
Speaker 6: York Times or something, Wow, where did these guys come from?

1989
01:44:17,000 --> 01:44:21,080
Speaker 6: They're terrible, But they've been there for years, decade maybe,

1990
01:44:21,200 --> 01:44:25,679
Speaker 6: and because our news is very focused on certain countries

1991
01:44:25,840 --> 01:44:28,479
Speaker 6: and certain things, it came as a shock to people.

1992
01:44:29,160 --> 01:44:33,160
Speaker 6: And maybe it just explained like obviously the human rights

1993
01:44:33,200 --> 01:44:37,719
Speaker 6: abuses began in Syria. I don't think I need to detail.

1994
01:44:38,200 --> 01:44:39,960
Speaker 6: There are videos that people can find on their own

1995
01:44:40,000 --> 01:44:44,439
Speaker 6: time if they want to, some brutal executions and such.

1996
01:44:45,600 --> 01:44:48,240
Speaker 6: But yeah, could you like at least sort of enumerate

1997
01:44:48,320 --> 01:44:51,640
Speaker 6: some instances where where they've done that in Africa? I

1998
01:44:51,680 --> 01:44:53,320
Speaker 6: can think of three or four countries at the top

1999
01:44:53,320 --> 01:44:53,760
Speaker 6: of my head.

2000
01:44:54,520 --> 01:44:57,160
Speaker 8: Well, there's there's Valley as the instant one. There's the

2001
01:44:58,160 --> 01:45:00,320
Speaker 8: big one, which I think was three hundreds of Itdians

2002
01:45:00,320 --> 01:45:03,840
Speaker 8: were murdered. They basically locked up in a village I

2003
01:45:03,880 --> 01:45:07,360
Speaker 8: think was it's Moon or Mooney Money as the name

2004
01:45:07,360 --> 01:45:10,479
Speaker 8: of the village in Mali. They rocked up with the

2005
01:45:10,520 --> 01:45:15,280
Speaker 8: with Malian troops and proceeded to hunt for terrorists and

2006
01:45:15,800 --> 01:45:21,680
Speaker 8: murdered three hundred people, including beheadings and whatnot. And that

2007
01:45:21,840 --> 01:45:25,680
Speaker 8: was there was absolutely, one hundred percent guaranteed there was

2008
01:45:26,479 --> 01:45:32,679
Speaker 8: Wagner operators did murder and behead local villagers six weeks ago.

2009
01:45:32,840 --> 01:45:36,919
Speaker 8: Eight weeks ago there was there was an attack against

2010
01:45:37,680 --> 01:45:42,600
Speaker 8: a convoy which included Wagner personnel, and their response was

2011
01:45:42,640 --> 01:45:46,400
Speaker 8: to rock into a village and execute ten people. So

2012
01:45:46,680 --> 01:45:50,160
Speaker 8: you know, that's two cases that again, unless you're looking

2013
01:45:51,040 --> 01:45:53,280
Speaker 8: unless you're kind of aware of the certain sources that

2014
01:45:53,320 --> 01:45:58,639
Speaker 8: are available and looking at local, local journalists who are

2015
01:45:58,640 --> 01:46:02,200
Speaker 8: in these in these countries, it's not popping up anywhere.

2016
01:46:03,120 --> 01:46:06,160
Speaker 8: It's just not coming to life. You know, there's Central

2017
01:46:06,200 --> 01:46:10,519
Speaker 8: Africa there there's been rapes, murders, there's been mass rapes,

2018
01:46:10,560 --> 01:46:14,920
Speaker 8: there's you know, there's been executions, torture. You know, it's

2019
01:46:15,040 --> 01:46:18,280
Speaker 8: just off the charts. In Mali there is actually unknown

2020
01:46:18,320 --> 01:46:21,160
Speaker 8: and it's becoming famous in Mali. There is a torture

2021
01:46:21,160 --> 01:46:25,200
Speaker 8: house inside one of their bases in Mali and it's

2022
01:46:25,240 --> 01:46:30,200
Speaker 8: becoming it's widely known as there. You know, it's the

2023
01:46:30,280 --> 01:46:35,160
Speaker 8: multinational organizations, the UN, the EU all know about its presence,

2024
01:46:35,479 --> 01:46:38,040
Speaker 8: they all have the evidence, and yet there's nothing. There's

2025
01:46:38,040 --> 01:46:39,040
Speaker 8: still nothing being done.

2026
01:46:39,680 --> 01:46:43,599
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I think it's easy. I think that happened.

2027
01:46:43,960 --> 01:46:47,120
Speaker 6: If you remember when they were riots in France, was

2028
01:46:47,240 --> 01:46:49,600
Speaker 6: that people would be like, oh, well, like you know,

2029
01:46:49,640 --> 01:46:51,759
Speaker 6: France is in all these countries in Africa, which obviously

2030
01:46:51,800 --> 01:46:55,240
Speaker 6: comes from a legacy of colonialism, which was violent and terrible,

2031
01:46:55,720 --> 01:46:59,000
Speaker 6: but yeah, there are other forces. Like I remember someone

2032
01:46:59,040 --> 01:47:02,160
Speaker 6: positing that like Mali had been liberated from French control

2033
01:47:02,840 --> 01:47:08,120
Speaker 6: uh France left, but like these guys came like it

2034
01:47:08,160 --> 01:47:11,200
Speaker 6: wasn't as if you know, there was say, you know,

2035
01:47:11,439 --> 01:47:16,439
Speaker 6: a democratic transition of power or you know, the desirable outcome.

2036
01:47:17,400 --> 01:47:20,200
Speaker 8: And I think, yeah, well, I mean, I mean, I

2037
01:47:20,200 --> 01:47:22,840
Speaker 8: mean even this morning, the with the with the coup

2038
01:47:23,479 --> 01:47:26,479
Speaker 8: in Niger, you know, there was a twileet put up

2039
01:47:26,560 --> 01:47:31,160
Speaker 8: by one of the Russian Twitter accounts claiming that the

2040
01:47:31,320 --> 01:47:35,559
Speaker 8: coup had been orchestrated and managed by by Wagner who

2041
01:47:35,560 --> 01:47:41,960
Speaker 8: were liberating these from the from the coloniness. It's just like, yeah,

2042
01:47:42,320 --> 01:47:45,360
Speaker 8: they actually believe there are you just do they actually

2043
01:47:45,400 --> 01:47:47,599
Speaker 8: believe their own stuff? It's just amazing.

2044
01:47:48,000 --> 01:47:50,800
Speaker 6: Well it's very well I don't know if they believe it,

2045
01:47:50,840 --> 01:47:52,599
Speaker 6: but it seems to be very well targeted to get

2046
01:47:52,640 --> 01:47:55,920
Speaker 6: people to believe it online. Right, Like there's this whole

2047
01:47:56,960 --> 01:48:00,040
Speaker 6: sort of hammer and sickle in biocommunity that thinks that

2048
01:48:00,080 --> 01:48:04,000
Speaker 6: what Russia is doing in Ukraine is denazifying. And when

2049
01:48:04,040 --> 01:48:08,040
Speaker 6: you couple with a lack of media coverage of Africa

2050
01:48:08,160 --> 01:48:11,920
Speaker 6: and a lack of knowledge of what's happened there, it's

2051
01:48:12,000 --> 01:48:14,960
Speaker 6: very understandable that people sort of don't quite grasp it.

2052
01:48:15,240 --> 01:48:18,320
Speaker 6: And I think that's that's that's an education thing, an

2053
01:48:18,320 --> 01:48:22,320
Speaker 6: a media thing. Yeah, but it's I think I think

2054
01:48:22,320 --> 01:48:26,320
Speaker 6: people may not be aware of. Is the one thing

2055
01:48:26,320 --> 01:48:28,639
Speaker 6: that has been reported a lot is the heavy, heavy

2056
01:48:28,680 --> 01:48:33,000
Speaker 6: losses have taken in Ukraine, right often in like they

2057
01:48:33,080 --> 01:48:36,599
Speaker 6: called the almost piano battalions that they have like that,

2058
01:48:36,800 --> 01:48:41,120
Speaker 6: they'll have convicts and things like that, Right, can you explain,

2059
01:48:41,200 --> 01:48:43,439
Speaker 6: Like I think this might lead people to believe that

2060
01:48:43,439 --> 01:48:45,679
Speaker 6: they're not capable of doing what they've done in Africa

2061
01:48:45,720 --> 01:48:48,120
Speaker 6: for a long time, But that's that's not correct, right,

2062
01:48:48,160 --> 01:48:52,840
Speaker 6: They're still sending I guess operators to Africa. They're still

2063
01:48:53,400 --> 01:48:54,920
Speaker 6: doing their terrible shit in Africa.

2064
01:48:57,040 --> 01:49:01,000
Speaker 8: Yeah, there's been even recently, there was a lot of

2065
01:49:01,080 --> 01:49:04,080
Speaker 8: flights being being picked up moving in and out of

2066
01:49:04,120 --> 01:49:10,000
Speaker 8: Africa which were Wagner associated aircraft. And at first it

2067
01:49:10,080 --> 01:49:12,920
Speaker 8: was you know, this happened around the time that they

2068
01:49:13,000 --> 01:49:17,479
Speaker 8: made them move towards back into Russia, towards towards Putin,

2069
01:49:18,120 --> 01:49:21,160
Speaker 8: and there was a lot of questions as to a

2070
01:49:21,400 --> 01:49:26,599
Speaker 8: pullout of personnel to support their what's going on in Russia,

2071
01:49:27,040 --> 01:49:29,760
Speaker 8: And then it stopped and the flights started coming back in.

2072
01:49:29,800 --> 01:49:32,280
Speaker 8: So it looks like there's been a ramp up again

2073
01:49:32,320 --> 01:49:34,840
Speaker 8: in a lot of African countries, so they it looks

2074
01:49:34,880 --> 01:49:38,360
Speaker 8: like they're upping the personnel now. Whether it's they've they've

2075
01:49:38,400 --> 01:49:41,000
Speaker 8: cut some kind of deal where they're now just going

2076
01:49:41,040 --> 01:49:43,920
Speaker 8: to be a money maker, I'm not quite sure, but

2077
01:49:44,120 --> 01:49:48,040
Speaker 8: you know that'll remained to be seeing if they have

2078
01:49:48,280 --> 01:49:54,960
Speaker 8: orchestra Nicher, which is possible, then it's clearly kind of

2079
01:49:54,960 --> 01:49:58,559
Speaker 8: a ramp up of operations. They're very, very skilled in

2080
01:49:58,600 --> 01:50:01,840
Speaker 8: whipping up local population because they whipped up anti French

2081
01:50:02,160 --> 01:50:08,120
Speaker 8: assettlements in both Mali and in Brookino Fasso. And even

2082
01:50:08,120 --> 01:50:11,800
Speaker 8: though and you're the French did the French did arm

2083
01:50:12,560 --> 01:50:15,480
Speaker 8: kind of drone strikes which you know, did kill civilians

2084
01:50:15,479 --> 01:50:21,840
Speaker 8: and stuff, but they they the massive reaction to two

2085
01:50:21,880 --> 01:50:26,599
Speaker 8: reasons stunts was definitely by Wagner at the time.

2086
01:50:27,200 --> 01:50:31,559
Speaker 6: It is a very lucrative almost informal empire for Russia, right,

2087
01:50:31,920 --> 01:50:34,920
Speaker 6: It's a very lucrative way for them to continue this

2088
01:50:35,000 --> 01:50:39,759
Speaker 6: process of extractive colonialism and violent subjugation of African people,

2089
01:50:40,479 --> 01:50:43,880
Speaker 6: and often in ways that are not that distinct from

2090
01:50:43,920 --> 01:50:46,960
Speaker 6: the colonialism that we saw you one hundred and fifty

2091
01:50:47,040 --> 01:50:51,479
Speaker 6: two hundred years ago and with real like you've detailed

2092
01:50:51,479 --> 01:50:57,759
Speaker 6: brutal human rights abuses and all extends, all to extract

2093
01:50:58,040 --> 01:51:01,160
Speaker 6: wealth and resources from Africa get in a very similar

2094
01:51:01,200 --> 01:51:03,519
Speaker 6: way to what we've seen before, but in a less

2095
01:51:03,560 --> 01:51:06,080
Speaker 6: formal way, I guess than you know with French and

2096
01:51:06,120 --> 01:51:08,200
Speaker 6: British colonialism.

2097
01:51:08,360 --> 01:51:11,960
Speaker 8: Yeah, it is, it's it's it's very much a corporate

2098
01:51:12,000 --> 01:51:15,760
Speaker 8: im period as opposed to a nationalistic imperialism in a way.

2099
01:51:16,200 --> 01:51:18,080
Speaker 8: And it's you know, the money is flowing into the

2100
01:51:18,120 --> 01:51:21,640
Speaker 8: pockets of the you know, the oligarchs and stuff in Russia.

2101
01:51:22,280 --> 01:51:25,080
Speaker 8: I mean they there was a I was in a

2102
01:51:25,160 --> 01:51:29,360
Speaker 8: bit of a discussion this morning about about Niegire and

2103
01:51:29,560 --> 01:51:32,240
Speaker 8: someone had a comment about there being oh, there's not

2104
01:51:32,560 --> 01:51:35,800
Speaker 8: the if you look at them, the Sahel map and

2105
01:51:35,840 --> 01:51:40,600
Speaker 8: the mineral wealth that there's there's more attractive kind of

2106
01:51:41,080 --> 01:51:45,280
Speaker 8: mineral kind of extraction further south into the Congo. But

2107
01:51:45,320 --> 01:51:48,680
Speaker 8: the thing is in and I've worked in Mauritania. You know,

2108
01:51:48,720 --> 01:51:51,320
Speaker 8: you had Mauritania, which is three times the size of

2109
01:51:51,880 --> 01:51:55,920
Speaker 8: France with a population of four million, and yet only

2110
01:51:56,000 --> 01:51:58,600
Speaker 8: one percent of the country has actually been surroted for

2111
01:51:58,800 --> 01:52:02,080
Speaker 8: its mineral wealth, and it already has massive gold, iron

2112
01:52:02,200 --> 01:52:05,240
Speaker 8: and iron ore deposits and copper deposits. If you take that,

2113
01:52:05,400 --> 01:52:09,080
Speaker 8: if you go over into Burkino Faso, it has huge

2114
01:52:09,080 --> 01:52:14,439
Speaker 8: gold gold deposits which are under explored. It's relatively the

2115
01:52:14,520 --> 01:52:18,200
Speaker 8: vast majority would be artizanal mining. The same with Mali.

2116
01:52:19,479 --> 01:52:22,200
Speaker 8: And if you go across into Niger you've got the

2117
01:52:22,280 --> 01:52:25,840
Speaker 8: huge uranium mine which is a keystone of the of

2118
01:52:25,880 --> 01:52:29,840
Speaker 8: the French nuclear industry arlet, which would be worth a

2119
01:52:29,960 --> 01:52:37,840
Speaker 8: fortune to whoever would control the territory. So it's it's

2120
01:52:37,920 --> 01:52:43,160
Speaker 8: a very colonialist. I suppose manual to what the what

2121
01:52:43,240 --> 01:52:45,720
Speaker 8: Wagner are doing, but it's a very it's it's very

2122
01:52:45,760 --> 01:52:50,320
Speaker 8: much a corporate model as opposed to coming in and

2123
01:52:50,479 --> 01:52:54,600
Speaker 8: establishing governance. They're they're quite happy to leave kind of

2124
01:52:54,600 --> 01:52:58,040
Speaker 8: administration and governments and stuff like that too and go,

2125
01:52:58,880 --> 01:53:02,000
Speaker 8: but they want the mineral wealth and they'll you know,

2126
01:53:02,640 --> 01:53:09,439
Speaker 8: they will manipulate and embed themselves with local military who

2127
01:53:09,600 --> 01:53:11,880
Speaker 8: you know, if you you know you've got Mali, it's

2128
01:53:11,920 --> 01:53:15,640
Speaker 8: it's governed now by a military military junta. Niger is

2129
01:53:15,720 --> 01:53:18,960
Speaker 8: likely to be the same. And you can get Brookino Fasso.

2130
01:53:19,280 --> 01:53:22,600
Speaker 8: It's not quite far off that either. And yeah, so

2131
01:53:22,760 --> 01:53:25,479
Speaker 8: they're if you don't in these countries, if you don't

2132
01:53:25,479 --> 01:53:27,920
Speaker 8: have the backing of the military, you've got nothing. You're

2133
01:53:27,960 --> 01:53:28,840
Speaker 8: not going to be in power.

2134
01:53:29,560 --> 01:53:32,040
Speaker 6: So yeah, and then if they could draw the military

2135
01:53:32,360 --> 01:53:34,960
Speaker 6: and then they control it in power, right and as

2136
01:53:35,000 --> 01:53:36,960
Speaker 6: long as that's amenable, like you say, to their desire

2137
01:53:37,000 --> 01:53:39,479
Speaker 6: to extract wealth, and they don't care and.

2138
01:53:40,120 --> 01:53:42,880
Speaker 8: Yeah, and it's and you know, the the other part

2139
01:53:42,920 --> 01:53:45,479
Speaker 8: of it is they're they're bringing in all the toys

2140
01:53:45,600 --> 01:53:48,559
Speaker 8: for the for these god for these governments as well.

2141
01:53:48,960 --> 01:53:53,360
Speaker 8: They're importing drones, they're importing weaponry, helicopters. You know.

2142
01:53:54,760 --> 01:53:56,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, let's talk about it a little bit, because that's

2143
01:53:57,000 --> 01:54:00,000
Speaker 6: something they seem to have. Like Eric Prince tried to

2144
01:54:00,080 --> 01:54:02,519
Speaker 6: himself a plane, right and he didn't really do very well.

2145
01:54:02,640 --> 01:54:07,600
Speaker 6: And that, like their access to military hardware is it's unprecedented.

2146
01:54:08,080 --> 01:54:12,360
Speaker 6: So like where they're able to obtain all that, Oh.

2147
01:54:12,280 --> 01:54:17,360
Speaker 8: They're definitely, they're definitely collusion with I mean, whatever tensions

2148
01:54:17,640 --> 01:54:21,879
Speaker 8: there are in Ukraine between the Russian military and Wagner,

2149
01:54:22,479 --> 01:54:25,839
Speaker 8: there's definitely not any tensions between Wagner and the Russian

2150
01:54:25,840 --> 01:54:30,599
Speaker 8: military when it comes to secure hardware for Africa. Yeah,

2151
01:54:31,800 --> 01:54:35,600
Speaker 8: I mean, they there was brand new twenty fours unloaded

2152
01:54:35,720 --> 01:54:39,320
Speaker 8: in in Mali only last year and they met a

2153
01:54:39,440 --> 01:54:42,600
Speaker 8: very very big show of the French leaving and these

2154
01:54:42,800 --> 01:54:48,120
Speaker 8: and these helicopters arriving. So you know, there's there's been

2155
01:54:48,160 --> 01:54:52,480
Speaker 8: Turkish built drones are starting to are coming in left,

2156
01:54:52,560 --> 01:54:56,480
Speaker 8: right and center across all with the aid and shipment

2157
01:54:56,880 --> 01:55:04,160
Speaker 8: by Wagner. So they're they have incredible with Russian produced equipment.

2158
01:55:04,200 --> 01:55:06,880
Speaker 8: They have incredible access access to it and it can

2159
01:55:06,920 --> 01:55:08,880
Speaker 8: only come from one place, it only it can only

2160
01:55:08,920 --> 01:55:12,839
Speaker 8: come from the military. And you know, you know, we've

2161
01:55:12,880 --> 01:55:16,520
Speaker 8: seen Russian troops arrive in Ukraine with weapons that are

2162
01:55:16,720 --> 01:55:21,960
Speaker 8: fifty years old because there's nothing on their basis. Well

2163
01:55:22,320 --> 01:55:24,120
Speaker 8: kind of it's very clear that there was nothing on

2164
01:55:24,120 --> 01:55:27,680
Speaker 8: their basis because these weapons are shown are being transported

2165
01:55:27,840 --> 01:55:28,680
Speaker 8: for use in Africa.

2166
01:55:29,280 --> 01:55:32,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, they've done the same in Myanmar, right, They're still

2167
01:55:32,080 --> 01:55:37,640
Speaker 6: selling planes, they're still selling munitions there, and it's yeah, yeah,

2168
01:55:37,880 --> 01:55:41,160
Speaker 6: it's it's almost like a I don't know, there's like

2169
01:55:41,200 --> 01:55:43,680
Speaker 6: a corporate and a state structure, and sometimes it seems

2170
01:55:43,680 --> 01:55:46,120
Speaker 6: like especially well we see that in the US too,

2171
01:55:46,120 --> 01:55:49,560
Speaker 6: I guess, but they're competing, they're competing desires that parallel.

2172
01:55:49,560 --> 01:55:52,160
Speaker 6: One doesn't one doesn't have sort of a video that.

2173
01:55:53,280 --> 01:55:55,960
Speaker 6: One thing I do want to get into is this

2174
01:55:56,440 --> 01:56:00,680
Speaker 6: culture that exists was in Wagner. That is, it's an

2175
01:56:00,760 --> 01:56:04,760
Speaker 6: extreme glorification of violence, right and in a glorification of

2176
01:56:05,240 --> 01:56:09,400
Speaker 6: sometimes of Nazism, yeah, of other sort of related kind

2177
01:56:09,440 --> 01:56:12,080
Speaker 6: of things that I guess they see as like warrior societies.

2178
01:56:13,000 --> 01:56:15,640
Speaker 6: And you can see a lot in the telegram. Can

2179
01:56:15,680 --> 01:56:16,760
Speaker 6: you speak a little bit to that.

2180
01:56:17,840 --> 01:56:22,000
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's been there's definitely been an element of these

2181
01:56:22,040 --> 01:56:26,040
Speaker 8: guys have been recruited from right wing in the in

2182
01:56:26,080 --> 01:56:29,920
Speaker 8: the Russian military, and we already know there was some

2183
01:56:29,960 --> 01:56:32,800
Speaker 8: of these units were heavily involved with the with the

2184
01:56:32,920 --> 01:56:37,440
Speaker 8: Russian football hooligans who had a very hard right leaning anyway,

2185
01:56:38,120 --> 01:56:41,200
Speaker 8: and you know, we've seen across like it's been hugely

2186
01:56:41,200 --> 01:56:44,640
Speaker 8: in evidence across some of the some of the said

2187
01:56:44,680 --> 01:56:48,360
Speaker 8: towns where there's been fighting in Libya where Wagner had

2188
01:56:48,440 --> 01:56:51,440
Speaker 8: left graffiti of you know, the sonon Rand and a

2189
01:56:51,520 --> 01:56:56,040
Speaker 8: lot of these other Nazi symbols, and there is this

2190
01:56:56,120 --> 01:57:00,840
Speaker 8: whole mass glorification of violence from the top down. I mean,

2191
01:57:01,000 --> 01:57:06,000
Speaker 8: the executions, the beatings, you know, the torture of local

2192
01:57:06,680 --> 01:57:10,400
Speaker 8: non white people in there, you know that they're coming

2193
01:57:10,680 --> 01:57:15,360
Speaker 8: upcoming contact. But we've seen it in Syria, brutal executions.

2194
01:57:16,040 --> 01:57:21,040
Speaker 8: It's a very much of white supremacist far right. It's

2195
01:57:21,080 --> 01:57:24,080
Speaker 8: not even undertones because it's so it's so blatant, it's

2196
01:57:24,160 --> 01:57:26,960
Speaker 8: right in your face. I mean, they just don't hide

2197
01:57:26,960 --> 01:57:29,440
Speaker 8: it on their telegram channels, they don't hide it where

2198
01:57:29,560 --> 01:57:33,000
Speaker 8: they go. You know, we've seen military patches that they're wearing,

2199
01:57:33,040 --> 01:57:37,280
Speaker 8: which are you know, extreme right, graffiti they leave behind

2200
01:57:37,400 --> 01:57:40,680
Speaker 8: which is extreme right. You know, even I haven't seen

2201
01:57:40,960 --> 01:57:43,520
Speaker 8: the movies they've met, but I believe they're they're actually

2202
01:57:43,560 --> 01:57:47,840
Speaker 8: there's there's a lot of image there as well, which

2203
01:57:47,880 --> 01:57:50,560
Speaker 8: would be you're right up the street of kind of

2204
01:57:51,000 --> 01:57:52,880
Speaker 8: neo fascist organizations as well.

2205
01:57:53,760 --> 01:57:55,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, it certainly seems that they're pretty explictive about it,

2206
01:57:56,000 --> 01:57:59,200
Speaker 6: and no one they don't care. I mean, for those

2207
01:57:59,240 --> 01:58:01,160
Speaker 6: you're not supposed to be called it Wagner because it

2208
01:58:01,200 --> 01:58:03,200
Speaker 6: was Hitler's favorite composer.

2209
01:58:02,760 --> 01:58:11,760
Speaker 8: Right, Yeah, Yeah, but yeah, there's like some of the

2210
01:58:11,760 --> 01:58:16,080
Speaker 8: there's there's crossover between some of the other far right

2211
01:58:16,200 --> 01:58:19,240
Speaker 8: or organizations and some of the you know, some of

2212
01:58:19,320 --> 01:58:21,480
Speaker 8: these units, these far right, units who being who are

2213
01:58:21,680 --> 01:58:26,240
Speaker 8: in in Ukraine and Wagner. There is a kind of

2214
01:58:26,280 --> 01:58:28,040
Speaker 8: cross pollination personnel as well.

2215
01:58:28,800 --> 01:58:31,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, Yeah, it's only seems they sort of go back

2216
01:58:31,360 --> 01:58:33,840
Speaker 6: and forth with the military. It's not like I think

2217
01:58:33,920 --> 01:58:35,880
Speaker 6: people would say there's more of a distinct entity than

2218
01:58:35,880 --> 01:58:36,560
Speaker 6: it perhaps is.

2219
01:58:37,320 --> 01:58:42,800
Speaker 8: Yeah, they're they're not They're not a there's guys from

2220
01:58:42,880 --> 01:58:45,760
Speaker 8: Wagner will show up with with other organizations from time

2221
01:58:45,760 --> 01:58:48,040
Speaker 8: to time, but then they seem to kind of drift

2222
01:58:48,120 --> 01:58:52,000
Speaker 8: back to Wagner. And seeing that especially in Ukraine in

2223
01:58:53,160 --> 01:58:55,320
Speaker 8: sort as well in Libya, there was there was guys

2224
01:58:55,320 --> 01:58:59,600
Speaker 8: that have identified who were operating in you know, with

2225
01:59:00,040 --> 01:59:03,760
Speaker 8: Agner in Libya who definitely had you know, had operated

2226
01:59:03,800 --> 01:59:07,720
Speaker 8: with other organizations as well. You know, they've been I

2227
01:59:07,720 --> 01:59:10,240
Speaker 8: think there was a number of them work had been

2228
01:59:10,280 --> 01:59:13,760
Speaker 8: photographed that had actually been id during some of the

2229
01:59:14,360 --> 01:59:18,680
Speaker 8: football violence in Marcia during the European Coupled a few

2230
01:59:18,760 --> 01:59:23,240
Speaker 8: years ago. So you know, they're they're in this in

2231
01:59:23,280 --> 01:59:26,040
Speaker 8: this circle and they're they are moving over and back

2232
01:59:26,080 --> 01:59:30,320
Speaker 8: between different organizations. But again it's it's a massive shower identity.

2233
01:59:31,160 --> 01:59:35,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's yeah, it's part of this giant cluster of

2234
01:59:35,360 --> 01:59:40,720
Speaker 6: the sort of armed extreme right. Yeah, has been yeah,

2235
01:59:40,800 --> 01:59:44,000
Speaker 6: sort of festering for a long time, unnoticed by a

2236
01:59:44,000 --> 01:59:49,400
Speaker 6: lot of people. I wonder like, yeah, yeah, yeah, You've

2237
01:59:49,440 --> 01:59:52,080
Speaker 6: mentioned that if people aren't paying attention, they won't see things,

2238
01:59:52,120 --> 01:59:54,040
Speaker 6: which I think is right because it's not you know,

2239
01:59:54,120 --> 01:59:57,920
Speaker 6: it's not on primetime TV or TV at all. Where

2240
01:59:57,920 --> 02:00:02,560
Speaker 6: would you like, where would you go for coverage, especially

2241
02:00:02,800 --> 02:00:05,040
Speaker 6: let's say that you know parts of Africa are you working?

2242
02:00:06,600 --> 02:00:10,240
Speaker 8: I use I would use Twitter quite a lot to

2243
02:00:10,240 --> 02:00:13,800
Speaker 8: to look at what what local journalists are doing in

2244
02:00:14,160 --> 02:00:17,640
Speaker 8: you know, in places like Mali and the chair. I

2245
02:00:17,640 --> 02:00:21,720
Speaker 8: think I started off. I started off using Twitter in

2246
02:00:21,960 --> 02:00:26,040
Speaker 8: Yemen when I was working there because the you know,

2247
02:00:26,160 --> 02:00:29,800
Speaker 8: I was fifty kilometers from a town that was entirely

2248
02:00:29,840 --> 02:00:33,120
Speaker 8: controlled by al Qaeda, and one of them was on

2249
02:00:33,160 --> 02:00:37,480
Speaker 8: Twitter that they were all posting on Twitter. And you know,

2250
02:00:37,760 --> 02:00:41,040
Speaker 8: there was some fantastic local journalists who were posting on

2251
02:00:41,080 --> 02:00:44,440
Speaker 8: Twitter as well, so you got to see in almost

2252
02:00:44,480 --> 02:00:48,960
Speaker 8: real time what was happening in these places. Yeah, and

2253
02:00:49,000 --> 02:00:52,400
Speaker 8: when there was no other media really and I carried

2254
02:00:52,400 --> 02:00:56,839
Speaker 8: on using Twitter. And then because I do write security report,

2255
02:00:57,360 --> 02:01:00,360
Speaker 8: you know, digging around and you had there's a couple

2256
02:01:00,360 --> 02:01:07,160
Speaker 8: of online and analysts and awesome people around who cover

2257
02:01:07,280 --> 02:01:09,840
Speaker 8: kind of global conflicts, but they do cover quite a

2258
02:01:09,840 --> 02:01:13,240
Speaker 8: lot in the heel. Okay, Yeah, so you would have

2259
02:01:13,680 --> 02:01:15,560
Speaker 8: like the likes of war and War and people like

2260
02:01:15,600 --> 02:01:17,839
Speaker 8: that were very good on the arm side of things.

2261
02:01:18,080 --> 02:01:20,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, he's very good at he keeps an eye on

2262
02:01:20,600 --> 02:01:21,360
Speaker 6: me mr as well.

2263
02:01:21,440 --> 02:01:21,680
Speaker 8: Yeah.

2264
02:01:22,640 --> 02:01:25,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, there's a few useful accounts. I think you do

2265
02:01:25,360 --> 02:01:27,200
Speaker 6: share them on your own accounts sometimes as well.

2266
02:01:27,240 --> 02:01:29,880
Speaker 8: I've seen I do. Yeah, from time to time, I'll

2267
02:01:29,880 --> 02:01:30,600
Speaker 8: share them on my own.

2268
02:01:30,760 --> 02:01:33,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, what is yours? If people want to follow along,

2269
02:01:33,840 --> 02:01:34,720
Speaker 6: pitch your feet.

2270
02:01:35,000 --> 02:01:40,360
Speaker 8: It's Dermott and Couse Growth all right, so d or

2271
02:01:40,560 --> 02:01:44,000
Speaker 8: Mot and and then coss Growth cosg RB.

2272
02:01:44,960 --> 02:01:47,800
Speaker 6: Yeah. It is one of those things that like we

2273
02:01:47,880 --> 02:01:50,080
Speaker 6: talk about, you know in many ways, you know what

2274
02:01:50,280 --> 02:01:52,320
Speaker 6: people spend too much time on Twitter and that you know,

2275
02:01:52,360 --> 02:01:55,240
Speaker 6: when it dies it will be nice. But it is

2276
02:01:55,440 --> 02:02:02,400
Speaker 6: something I was talking to colleagues in Rwanda a while ago.

2277
02:02:02,480 --> 02:02:05,680
Speaker 6: But I remember when going to Rwanda, one of the

2278
02:02:05,720 --> 02:02:08,120
Speaker 6: things that they ask you is that you've verified on Twitter.

2279
02:02:08,200 --> 02:02:10,480
Speaker 6: This was before you could buy a verification for seven

2280
02:02:10,520 --> 02:02:13,360
Speaker 6: dollars or whatever. It actually allows a lot of people

2281
02:02:13,360 --> 02:02:16,400
Speaker 6: to work, especially in parts of Africa. It gives them

2282
02:02:16,840 --> 02:02:20,600
Speaker 6: sort of like especially in place with the government's hostileity journalism,

2283
02:02:20,680 --> 02:02:23,760
Speaker 6: it gives them an outside audience that will, one hopes,

2284
02:02:23,800 --> 02:02:26,880
Speaker 6: you know, make them a little bit safer also to

2285
02:02:26,920 --> 02:02:31,160
Speaker 6: be able to share these things. Yeah, yeah, and losing

2286
02:02:31,160 --> 02:02:33,000
Speaker 6: that like there's no other platform that does that.

2287
02:02:34,200 --> 02:02:36,200
Speaker 8: No, there isn't that. It's a pity that it's that

2288
02:02:36,360 --> 02:02:39,200
Speaker 8: it's actually gone down the road. It's gone down. I mean,

2289
02:02:39,720 --> 02:02:42,160
Speaker 8: I would be I work a month on, month off,

2290
02:02:42,200 --> 02:02:45,880
Speaker 8: so I would be a big Twitter user when when

2291
02:02:45,880 --> 02:02:49,480
Speaker 8: I'm at work, because you know, gathering information from my

2292
02:02:49,560 --> 02:02:54,000
Speaker 8: reports and so yeah, and then at home I'm not

2293
02:02:54,080 --> 02:02:57,960
Speaker 8: on it so much. But you know, for local journalists

2294
02:02:58,080 --> 02:03:02,200
Speaker 8: and activists, it you know, it's a fantastic The whole

2295
02:03:02,200 --> 02:03:05,080
Speaker 8: idea is fantastic because they are able to get that

2296
02:03:05,160 --> 02:03:09,040
Speaker 8: message out. They are more visible in countries where they've

2297
02:03:09,080 --> 02:03:12,080
Speaker 8: got repressive regimes, and it keeps an eye on them,

2298
02:03:12,080 --> 02:03:16,960
Speaker 8: and you're the more visibility they have. It wouldn't be

2299
02:03:16,960 --> 02:03:19,920
Speaker 8: one hundred percent safe, but they are a little bit safer.

2300
02:03:20,040 --> 02:03:22,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, I've seen it with colleagues in me and mar

2301
02:03:22,560 --> 02:03:26,360
Speaker 6: as well, just sort of it's aroundly out there to

2302
02:03:26,400 --> 02:03:28,480
Speaker 6: the world, you know, the Irrawady and all these other

2303
02:03:28,560 --> 02:03:34,000
Speaker 6: publications which are able to get things out, and lots

2304
02:03:34,040 --> 02:03:36,280
Speaker 6: of those people are in hiding, you know, like they

2305
02:03:36,320 --> 02:03:39,560
Speaker 6: can't operate in cities, and they're able to get things

2306
02:03:39,560 --> 02:03:42,160
Speaker 6: out to the world. So for that alone, it's valuable.

2307
02:03:42,480 --> 02:03:44,400
Speaker 6: And yeah, it's a shame that it seems to be

2308
02:03:44,400 --> 02:03:45,200
Speaker 6: go anywhere it's going.

2309
02:03:46,360 --> 02:03:48,480
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think I think there was even the you know,

2310
02:03:49,120 --> 02:03:53,160
Speaker 8: during the well even currently, there's still some still some

2311
02:03:53,200 --> 02:03:57,080
Speaker 8: people in Afghanistan who are it's their only outlet to

2312
02:03:57,080 --> 02:03:59,839
Speaker 8: get information out about what's happening under the Taliban.

2313
02:04:01,000 --> 02:04:04,720
Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah, I've in touch with a few people in

2314
02:04:04,760 --> 02:04:07,280
Speaker 6: Afghanistania that it's you know, that would all be lost.

2315
02:04:07,280 --> 02:04:10,280
Speaker 6: I wouldn't have ever found them otherwise, or some of

2316
02:04:10,280 --> 02:04:14,200
Speaker 6: them through friends. Yeah, and I want a piny up

2317
02:04:14,240 --> 02:04:18,160
Speaker 6: by asking, like the stuff that Wagner has done in

2318
02:04:18,200 --> 02:04:21,560
Speaker 6: Africa is repulsive. Stuff done in Syria is disgusting, Like

2319
02:04:21,720 --> 02:04:24,920
Speaker 6: what if if you had your your like if you

2320
02:04:24,960 --> 02:04:27,360
Speaker 6: had your way, Like, how can people or how can

2321
02:04:27,440 --> 02:04:30,640
Speaker 6: governments or what can we do to stop this kind

2322
02:04:30,680 --> 02:04:33,360
Speaker 6: of you know, human rights abuse.

2323
02:04:35,360 --> 02:04:37,920
Speaker 8: I think there's as much pressure should be can that

2324
02:04:38,000 --> 02:04:42,840
Speaker 8: can be put on in states obviously with congressmen and

2325
02:04:42,920 --> 02:04:45,760
Speaker 8: senators that if people go to them there in the

2326
02:04:45,840 --> 02:04:51,440
Speaker 8: UK government, you know, I'm Irish. You know, we have

2327
02:04:51,520 --> 02:04:54,840
Speaker 8: a long history of peacekeeping and stuff like that, and

2328
02:04:54,920 --> 02:04:57,680
Speaker 8: you know, investigations of human rights abuses, so you know,

2329
02:04:57,760 --> 02:05:01,000
Speaker 8: it's putting pressure on your politicians that action needs to

2330
02:05:01,000 --> 02:05:04,040
Speaker 8: be taken, you know. And the U n I'm but

2331
02:05:04,120 --> 02:05:06,480
Speaker 8: I'm not a massive vanity win because they have been

2332
02:05:06,480 --> 02:05:09,960
Speaker 8: so ineffectual in places. I mean, my my brother was

2333
02:05:10,000 --> 02:05:13,880
Speaker 8: in was in Lebanon on three separate occasions with the

2334
02:05:14,040 --> 02:05:16,880
Speaker 8: with the U Utiful Force and came home described with this,

2335
02:05:17,080 --> 02:05:20,120
Speaker 8: you know, one hand clapping because they they even ham

2336
02:05:20,320 --> 02:05:24,400
Speaker 8: strung their own people. But you know, there there isn't

2337
02:05:24,760 --> 02:05:28,400
Speaker 8: outside of the EU which can enforce sanctions on them.

2338
02:05:28,600 --> 02:05:31,760
Speaker 8: You know, there needs to be massive sanctions on anyone

2339
02:05:31,800 --> 02:05:35,720
Speaker 8: associated with Wagner. Yeah, and there needs to be more.

2340
02:05:35,960 --> 02:05:39,440
Speaker 8: I mean, you know, the the EU has pretty much

2341
02:05:39,480 --> 02:05:42,120
Speaker 8: been kicked out of the Sahel. There needs to be

2342
02:05:42,160 --> 02:05:46,280
Speaker 8: more a better relationship built up with these with these

2343
02:05:46,400 --> 02:05:50,520
Speaker 8: organized these governments. As repulsive as some of these governments are,

2344
02:05:51,480 --> 02:05:54,280
Speaker 8: there is no real other choice. But there has to

2345
02:05:54,280 --> 02:05:57,320
Speaker 8: be a way where Wagner have to be highlighted. If

2346
02:05:57,360 --> 02:06:01,120
Speaker 8: you know, journalists, get to journalists, ask them, why isn't

2347
02:06:01,120 --> 02:06:04,120
Speaker 8: he Why aren't these questions being asked? Is it? You know,

2348
02:06:04,160 --> 02:06:06,360
Speaker 8: why is it only being the focus? And I'm a

2349
02:06:06,360 --> 02:06:11,000
Speaker 8: big supporter of Ukraine, but why is it only since

2350
02:06:11,200 --> 02:06:16,600
Speaker 8: Ukraine that we're seeing wave televisions? Yeah, yeah, they've been

2351
02:06:16,760 --> 02:06:19,080
Speaker 8: They've been murdering people, they were putting you know, they

2352
02:06:19,120 --> 02:06:22,800
Speaker 8: were boobly trapping kids, toys and literally as they retreated

2353
02:06:22,840 --> 02:06:27,320
Speaker 8: out of out of western Libya. Yet none of that appeared,

2354
02:06:27,640 --> 02:06:31,320
Speaker 8: you know, the one BBC report and it came out

2355
02:06:31,760 --> 02:06:36,400
Speaker 8: and it died afterwards, which you know, is you know, horrendous.

2356
02:06:36,640 --> 02:06:38,560
Speaker 8: You know, this needs to be They need to be

2357
02:06:38,560 --> 02:06:39,720
Speaker 8: hammered left for the center.

2358
02:06:40,240 --> 02:06:41,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I think a lot You're right, a lot

2359
02:06:41,800 --> 02:06:44,000
Speaker 6: of that comes from if you find editors, you can

2360
02:06:44,000 --> 02:06:45,480
Speaker 6: ask them why they haven't come at this what it

2361
02:06:45,520 --> 02:06:48,040
Speaker 6: was happening in Affrica, like they were putting human beings

2362
02:06:48,080 --> 02:06:49,160
Speaker 6: and holes in the ground.

2363
02:06:50,400 --> 02:06:52,840
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, you know, if you're on Twitter, jump

2364
02:06:52,960 --> 02:06:57,240
Speaker 8: on Twitter, follow the follow editors news organizations and you know,

2365
02:06:57,320 --> 02:07:00,320
Speaker 8: tweet at them. Just why aren't you covering us?

2366
02:07:01,360 --> 02:07:04,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, make them say or make people explain why this

2367
02:07:04,080 --> 02:07:06,080
Speaker 6: doesn't matter as much. In the same with your politicians.

2368
02:07:06,080 --> 02:07:09,880
Speaker 6: I know sometimes writing to politicians can seem ineffectual, but

2369
02:07:10,160 --> 02:07:13,600
Speaker 6: like I can't put sanctions on them, you know, and

2370
02:07:13,640 --> 02:07:16,920
Speaker 6: I can't. I don't have the ability to project force.

2371
02:07:17,680 --> 02:07:21,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, and I don't think there's nothing that Wagner produced

2372
02:07:21,360 --> 02:07:23,760
Speaker 8: that you can kind of go, well, I'm not going

2373
02:07:23,840 --> 02:07:26,200
Speaker 8: to buy you know, I'm not going to buy this

2374
02:07:26,280 --> 02:07:30,680
Speaker 8: product because it impacts They don't care, They're they're not

2375
02:07:30,840 --> 02:07:35,560
Speaker 8: selling to the consumer. They're you know, they're stealing to

2376
02:07:35,600 --> 02:07:36,960
Speaker 8: put in their own buckets.

2377
02:07:37,400 --> 02:07:40,320
Speaker 6: Yes, exactly, Yeah, Yeah, I think it was. That was wonderful,

2378
02:07:40,360 --> 02:07:42,640
Speaker 6: Dare That's Is there anything you want to else you

2379
02:07:42,680 --> 02:07:45,040
Speaker 6: on a plug or anywhere else people can find you

2380
02:07:45,160 --> 02:07:46,800
Speaker 6: learn out more, learn more about the stuff.

2381
02:07:47,200 --> 02:07:51,280
Speaker 8: Well, well, I'm on Twitter is probably the best beast.

2382
02:07:51,880 --> 02:07:53,720
Speaker 8: I have kind of promised myself to do a little

2383
02:07:53,760 --> 02:07:57,800
Speaker 8: bit more kind of on the highlighting the conflict in

2384
02:07:58,280 --> 02:08:03,400
Speaker 8: because because I work in North Africa, and even though

2385
02:08:03,400 --> 02:08:05,280
Speaker 8: I'm not in the hell itself, the the hell has

2386
02:08:05,280 --> 02:08:08,400
Speaker 8: been It's always been a massive area of interest for me.

2387
02:08:09,000 --> 02:08:14,040
Speaker 8: So I've kind of I probably will kind of flip

2388
02:08:14,120 --> 02:08:17,720
Speaker 8: my my Twitter around a bit more to reflect what's

2389
02:08:17,760 --> 02:08:22,680
Speaker 8: going on in across the cell. Yeah, so I'm on there.

2390
02:08:23,600 --> 02:08:26,360
Speaker 8: I've got I've got an Instagram account, but that's only

2391
02:08:26,400 --> 02:08:27,800
Speaker 8: really if you like pictures of dogs.

2392
02:08:30,120 --> 02:08:32,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's that's what it's good for.

2393
02:08:32,240 --> 02:08:32,440
Speaker 8: Yeah.

2394
02:08:32,440 --> 02:08:33,960
Speaker 6: Well, thank you very much for your time, debit. We

2395
02:08:34,000 --> 02:08:37,120
Speaker 6: appreciate it. And yeah, I already learn a bit more

2396
02:08:37,120 --> 02:08:37,520
Speaker 6: about this.

2397
02:08:52,040 --> 02:08:54,960
Speaker 5: Hello, welcome to It could happen here. Yes, this is

2398
02:08:54,960 --> 02:08:58,640
Speaker 5: what I sound like today. This is Sharine. Just go

2399
02:08:58,680 --> 02:09:00,680
Speaker 5: with it. If you listen to the Sheep episode, I

2400
02:09:00,760 --> 02:09:04,320
Speaker 5: sounded much worse. So this is I sound great today,

2401
02:09:04,360 --> 02:09:09,520
Speaker 5: I amo, But yeah, thank you for listening today. I'm

2402
02:09:09,720 --> 02:09:11,560
Speaker 5: excited to talk about what I want to talk about

2403
02:09:11,600 --> 02:09:13,480
Speaker 5: for the next two days because it's something that I've

2404
02:09:13,480 --> 02:09:16,200
Speaker 5: always wanted to kind of just like open up as

2405
02:09:16,280 --> 02:09:20,480
Speaker 5: more of a conversation. And I'm so grateful to have

2406
02:09:21,120 --> 02:09:25,080
Speaker 5: an author and amazing person. They've just written a book

2407
02:09:25,120 --> 02:09:27,640
Speaker 5: called To the Ghosts Who Are Still Living and it's

2408
02:09:27,680 --> 02:09:31,320
Speaker 5: out now you can go get it. I'm the Wine Traub.

2409
02:09:31,680 --> 02:09:34,760
Speaker 5: Thank you so much for joining me. I'm so excited

2410
02:09:34,760 --> 02:09:35,280
Speaker 5: to talk to you.

2411
02:09:36,120 --> 02:09:37,880
Speaker 9: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk to

2412
02:09:37,880 --> 02:09:38,200
Speaker 9: you too.

2413
02:09:38,800 --> 02:09:40,960
Speaker 5: There's a particular reason why I asked you to come

2414
02:09:41,000 --> 02:09:44,320
Speaker 5: on the show. I specifically wanted to talk to a

2415
02:09:44,400 --> 02:09:48,080
Speaker 5: Jewish anti Zionist. So I want to approach the conversation

2416
02:09:48,880 --> 02:09:52,320
Speaker 5: as if people are really unfamiliar with Zionism, because I

2417
02:09:52,360 --> 02:09:56,080
Speaker 5: think most people are. Can you maybe just start by

2418
02:09:56,080 --> 02:09:58,800
Speaker 5: telling me, like what is Zionism?

2419
02:10:00,320 --> 02:10:04,040
Speaker 9: Definitely? Yeah, And I said to sharing before as well,

2420
02:10:04,080 --> 02:10:08,800
Speaker 9: like I am not particularly like an expert on Zionism

2421
02:10:09,040 --> 02:10:12,520
Speaker 9: or Israel Palestine. So also just want to recommend that

2422
02:10:12,560 --> 02:10:16,560
Speaker 9: listeners also go out and find the experts, find the

2423
02:10:16,600 --> 02:10:19,520
Speaker 9: materials that you're interested in, if this conversation sparks your interest,

2424
02:10:20,920 --> 02:10:24,120
Speaker 9: and take my thoughts as just one thought in the

2425
02:10:24,120 --> 02:10:27,360
Speaker 9: mix of all the thoughts. So yeah, when I was

2426
02:10:27,360 --> 02:10:34,120
Speaker 9: thinking about like defining Zionism, I was thinking about sort

2427
02:10:34,120 --> 02:10:36,280
Speaker 9: of like the origins of Zionism and like how did

2428
02:10:36,320 --> 02:10:42,320
Speaker 9: we even get to that place? And Zionism for me

2429
02:10:42,520 --> 02:10:47,640
Speaker 9: reflects and I think is like this political desire to

2430
02:10:47,840 --> 02:10:52,320
Speaker 9: have a Jewish state, and to have that Jewish state

2431
02:10:52,400 --> 02:10:57,640
Speaker 9: like on the land of Israel. Is how is how

2432
02:10:57,800 --> 02:11:04,240
Speaker 9: Zionism has materialized in its formation, and prior to like

2433
02:11:04,320 --> 02:11:08,280
Speaker 9: the actual political movement of Zionism, there has been like

2434
02:11:08,320 --> 02:11:12,640
Speaker 9: a connection of the Jewish people to that specific land,

2435
02:11:14,120 --> 02:11:17,680
Speaker 9: it just hadn't materialized into like an actual movement to

2436
02:11:17,840 --> 02:11:24,320
Speaker 9: establish a state on that land. So there's like there's

2437
02:11:24,360 --> 02:11:27,240
Speaker 9: been like a yearning and like a memory and like

2438
02:11:27,280 --> 02:11:33,280
Speaker 9: a collective sense of connection to like Jerusalem, to that

2439
02:11:33,760 --> 02:11:37,560
Speaker 9: piece of land. But it was only in like the

2440
02:11:37,920 --> 02:11:43,320
Speaker 9: eighteen hundreds, when there was nation state building occurring in

2441
02:11:43,320 --> 02:11:50,160
Speaker 9: general in Europe, specifically in Eastern Europe, that the movement

2442
02:11:50,280 --> 02:11:53,320
Speaker 9: for Zionism started to develop in the form that we

2443
02:11:53,360 --> 02:11:57,160
Speaker 9: have today. And a lot of that was because one reason,

2444
02:11:57,280 --> 02:12:02,080
Speaker 9: like Jews were saying, oh wow, like German people are

2445
02:12:02,080 --> 02:12:04,280
Speaker 9: creating a state or French people are creating a state,

2446
02:12:04,960 --> 02:12:07,040
Speaker 9: like we are a people, we should have a state.

2447
02:12:08,320 --> 02:12:11,360
Speaker 9: And at the same time, Jews were also being excluded

2448
02:12:11,400 --> 02:12:16,000
Speaker 9: from citizenship in a lot of the actual like newly

2449
02:12:16,040 --> 02:12:19,040
Speaker 9: formed countries that they were living in, So there was

2450
02:12:19,080 --> 02:12:23,560
Speaker 9: like this dispossession also from place where they were and

2451
02:12:24,120 --> 02:12:28,360
Speaker 9: matched with a general like rise of anti Semitism as well.

2452
02:12:29,040 --> 02:12:31,160
Speaker 9: So I think all of those things kind of crystallized

2453
02:12:31,200 --> 02:12:37,080
Speaker 9: into creating actual political movement around that kind of nascent

2454
02:12:37,720 --> 02:12:43,480
Speaker 9: like more like religious spiritual yearning. Yeah, and then that

2455
02:12:43,560 --> 02:12:47,600
Speaker 9: formed into like many different types of Zionism, like more

2456
02:12:47,600 --> 02:12:55,000
Speaker 9: militaristic Zionism, more socialist scions, religious Scionism, et cetera. And

2457
02:12:55,040 --> 02:12:59,760
Speaker 9: that's all kind of yeah, make its way to become Israel.

2458
02:13:00,240 --> 02:13:04,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, how would you differentiate all of those, like the

2459
02:13:04,200 --> 02:13:07,760
Speaker 5: cultural versus religious versus political, Like how would you personally

2460
02:13:07,800 --> 02:13:09,760
Speaker 5: differentiate them? I know you're not an expert, but just

2461
02:13:09,800 --> 02:13:10,560
Speaker 5: like speaking.

2462
02:13:10,280 --> 02:13:14,800
Speaker 9: Of experience, Yeah, I have to think on that. It's complicated,

2463
02:13:14,800 --> 02:13:16,760
Speaker 9: I would say, because it feels like.

2464
02:13:16,760 --> 02:13:20,200
Speaker 5: To me from just reading about the history of Zionism,

2465
02:13:21,160 --> 02:13:24,800
Speaker 5: it did kind of start in a religious like origin,

2466
02:13:25,000 --> 02:13:27,560
Speaker 5: but it became more political. Am I reading that right?

2467
02:13:27,960 --> 02:13:29,640
Speaker 5: Or yeah?

2468
02:13:29,720 --> 02:13:33,400
Speaker 9: Yeah? I think like, yeah, that's what can be pretty confusing.

2469
02:13:33,440 --> 02:13:37,800
Speaker 9: I think about understanding like Zionism in general is just

2470
02:13:37,840 --> 02:13:39,560
Speaker 9: like where does this even come from? Like how do

2471
02:13:39,720 --> 02:13:44,640
Speaker 9: these like especially Zionism like originating more from like Ashkenazi

2472
02:13:44,680 --> 02:13:48,640
Speaker 9: like European Jews. How did this even come to be

2473
02:13:48,920 --> 02:13:55,200
Speaker 9: and seen as something that like the longing and the

2474
02:13:55,320 --> 02:13:59,280
Speaker 9: connection to the land being part of Jewish culture and religion,

2475
02:14:00,080 --> 02:14:02,120
Speaker 9: but that only turning into a desire for a nation

2476
02:14:02,280 --> 02:14:07,200
Speaker 9: state like at that certain moment. So the like different

2477
02:14:07,200 --> 02:14:12,640
Speaker 9: categories of like religious Zionism versus political versus militaristic versus

2478
02:14:12,640 --> 02:14:16,960
Speaker 9: socialists were kind of like the ways that Zionism was.

2479
02:14:17,960 --> 02:14:21,560
Speaker 9: There was like different movements of Zionism in Europe and

2480
02:14:21,600 --> 02:14:24,360
Speaker 9: Eastern Europe at the time of its origins. So it's

2481
02:14:24,400 --> 02:14:27,960
Speaker 9: kind of like referring to more of its historical relationship

2482
02:14:28,920 --> 02:14:33,320
Speaker 9: and then that still influences the politics today in contemporary

2483
02:14:34,520 --> 02:14:36,280
Speaker 9: like I'll just say a state of Israel and also

2484
02:14:36,280 --> 02:14:39,480
Speaker 9: many like Israel Palestine, but speaking about Zionism that feels

2485
02:14:39,480 --> 02:14:44,680
Speaker 9: more relevant. So you still have like socialist scientists who

2486
02:14:44,760 --> 02:14:47,960
Speaker 9: are more on the left than you have like more

2487
02:14:48,080 --> 02:14:51,200
Speaker 9: like right wing religious scientists, you probably have more historical

2488
02:14:51,240 --> 02:14:57,520
Speaker 9: origins and like more militaristic Scionism and religious scientists who

2489
02:14:57,520 --> 02:15:00,520
Speaker 9: maybe are like we are here for the religious reasons

2490
02:15:00,520 --> 02:15:04,520
Speaker 9: of being Jews on this land versus like a socialist scientist,

2491
02:15:04,760 --> 02:15:08,560
Speaker 9: Like their framework was more like we want to create

2492
02:15:08,560 --> 02:15:13,680
Speaker 9: this more socialist utopia sort of vision versus a more

2493
02:15:13,720 --> 02:15:17,080
Speaker 9: political moltastic scietists. Their original vision was like want to

2494
02:15:17,120 --> 02:15:20,440
Speaker 9: dominate this land and right. Yeah, political power.

2495
02:15:20,920 --> 02:15:24,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, it feels like in recent times it's kind of

2496
02:15:24,120 --> 02:15:27,360
Speaker 5: leaned more in that direction only because of the I

2497
02:15:27,440 --> 02:15:29,800
Speaker 5: don't know the state of the world. But when you

2498
02:15:30,400 --> 02:15:33,440
Speaker 5: when you look up Zionism, it's defined I'm just going

2499
02:15:33,480 --> 02:15:35,920
Speaker 5: to read what I found and please entrupt me if

2500
02:15:35,920 --> 02:15:40,080
Speaker 5: you're like, actually no. When you look at Zionism was

2501
02:15:40,120 --> 02:15:44,840
Speaker 5: defined as an organized nationalist movement, generally considered to have

2502
02:15:44,880 --> 02:15:49,680
Speaker 5: been founded by Theodor Herzel in eighteen ninety seven. However,

2503
02:15:49,920 --> 02:15:53,640
Speaker 5: the history of Zionism began earlier and is intertwined with

2504
02:15:53,760 --> 02:15:57,880
Speaker 5: the Jewish history and Judaism as a whole. The organizations

2505
02:15:57,960 --> 02:16:02,280
Speaker 5: of I'm going to probably mispronounce this Hoveve Zion the

2506
02:16:02,360 --> 02:16:09,920
Speaker 5: lovers of Zion. How you save? Yeah, yeah. This organization

2507
02:16:10,960 --> 02:16:14,360
Speaker 5: was held as like the forerunner of the modern Zionist ideals,

2508
02:16:14,440 --> 02:16:18,160
Speaker 5: and they were responsible for twenty Jewish towns in Palestine

2509
02:16:18,160 --> 02:16:23,240
Speaker 5: between eighteen seventy and eighteen ninety seven. This is from

2510
02:16:23,280 --> 02:16:29,160
Speaker 5: just online history. And at the core of the Zionist

2511
02:16:29,200 --> 02:16:33,360
Speaker 5: ideology was this traditional aspiration for a Jewish national home

2512
02:16:33,840 --> 02:16:38,120
Speaker 5: through the re establishment of Jewish sovereignty in Palestine, and

2513
02:16:38,160 --> 02:16:42,640
Speaker 5: this was to be facilitated by the Jewish diaspora. Herzel

2514
02:16:42,720 --> 02:16:47,760
Speaker 5: apparently sought an independent Jewish state, usually defined as a

2515
02:16:47,920 --> 02:16:53,080
Speaker 5: secular state with a Jewish majority population, and he wrote

2516
02:16:53,200 --> 02:16:57,680
Speaker 5: a eighteen ninety six pamphlet to describe exactly what he wanted.

2517
02:16:58,800 --> 02:17:02,000
Speaker 5: And though he did not live to witness it, Israel

2518
02:17:02,200 --> 02:17:07,560
Speaker 5: was established and so what he wanted did come to fruition,

2519
02:17:07,920 --> 02:17:10,760
Speaker 5: even though in my opinion it was not done in.

2520
02:17:10,680 --> 02:17:11,560
Speaker 2: A just way.

2521
02:17:13,080 --> 02:17:19,600
Speaker 5: But that's history for you. But yeah, I think the

2522
02:17:19,720 --> 02:17:24,600
Speaker 5: actual core of it is really understandable and true. You know, like,

2523
02:17:24,640 --> 02:17:28,840
Speaker 5: of course, every marginalized community wants a safe haven and

2524
02:17:28,879 --> 02:17:31,760
Speaker 5: a place where they can all go to. I think

2525
02:17:32,040 --> 02:17:37,879
Speaker 5: my biggest what I really dislike about where it is now,

2526
02:17:37,920 --> 02:17:41,760
Speaker 5: where Zion is now, is just how much it erases

2527
02:17:41,800 --> 02:17:45,000
Speaker 5: everyone else that's already there. It's almost as if Palestine

2528
02:17:45,120 --> 02:17:49,840
Speaker 5: was like an empty field, you know. And I think

2529
02:17:50,400 --> 02:17:52,360
Speaker 5: a lot of zion Is today kind of erased that

2530
02:17:52,480 --> 02:17:55,959
Speaker 5: history and a race that like they massacred hundreds of

2531
02:17:56,000 --> 02:18:00,000
Speaker 5: people and they displaced over seven hundred and fifty thousand people.

2532
02:18:00,760 --> 02:18:03,000
Speaker 5: It's called the neckbut it's called a catastrophe. That's what

2533
02:18:03,040 --> 02:18:07,000
Speaker 5: Palestinians refer to it as and I feel like Zionists

2534
02:18:07,560 --> 02:18:12,600
Speaker 5: tend to not. I mean, from what I understand, it's

2535
02:18:12,600 --> 02:18:16,720
Speaker 5: as if that isn't like real history. And from what

2536
02:18:16,800 --> 02:18:18,920
Speaker 5: I've read or like from what I've heard from people

2537
02:18:18,959 --> 02:18:22,080
Speaker 5: that have grown up in Israel, the history that they

2538
02:18:22,160 --> 02:18:26,080
Speaker 5: learn is also a little bit selective in what they learn.

2539
02:18:26,800 --> 02:18:33,120
Speaker 5: But but yeah, that's I've just been I've been reading

2540
02:18:33,120 --> 02:18:36,480
Speaker 5: a lot about Zionism for a long time. Yeah, but

2541
02:18:36,560 --> 02:18:39,560
Speaker 5: it's nice to have someone actually, like with experience in

2542
02:18:39,600 --> 02:18:41,280
Speaker 5: it because I can only learn so much from the

2543
02:18:41,280 --> 02:18:43,200
Speaker 5: Internet and from like secondhand stuff.

2544
02:18:44,600 --> 02:18:47,480
Speaker 9: I feel like that, like like when we look at

2545
02:18:47,520 --> 02:18:50,400
Speaker 9: like the early Zionists and it's like, oh, yeah, like

2546
02:18:50,959 --> 02:18:55,160
Speaker 9: these desires to like have sovereignty and have autonomy and

2547
02:18:55,200 --> 02:18:59,320
Speaker 9: agency for your people who are being marginalized in your

2548
02:18:59,360 --> 02:19:03,800
Speaker 9: country like or in these lands that they live reasonable,

2549
02:19:03,879 --> 02:19:08,760
Speaker 9: Like that totally makes sense and that and then it

2550
02:19:08,800 --> 02:19:11,360
Speaker 9: has to, like you said, be also seeing through the

2551
02:19:11,440 --> 02:19:14,200
Speaker 9: lens of like the actual history that occurred, which is

2552
02:19:14,600 --> 02:19:17,920
Speaker 9: materially trying to like build a nation state as like

2553
02:19:18,000 --> 02:19:23,760
Speaker 9: part of your people's liberation is going to involve lots

2554
02:19:23,760 --> 02:19:27,640
Speaker 9: of oppression and violence. And that's kind of where I

2555
02:19:27,720 --> 02:19:32,720
Speaker 9: ended up, like, yeah, like understanding the history of Zionism,

2556
02:19:33,000 --> 02:19:37,960
Speaker 9: like being able to have empathy for that original message,

2557
02:19:38,080 --> 02:19:41,000
Speaker 9: and then just really being like that's what led me

2558
02:19:41,000 --> 02:19:46,400
Speaker 9: into like anarchism ultimately, was saying that this desire for

2559
02:19:46,600 --> 02:19:51,800
Speaker 9: a nation state to be like a liberatory project is

2560
02:19:51,879 --> 02:19:54,680
Speaker 9: kind of always going to be flawed in a way.

2561
02:19:56,000 --> 02:19:59,160
Speaker 9: So actually, like and I kind of said, like, you know,

2562
02:20:00,400 --> 02:20:05,200
Speaker 9: Jewish like agencies, sovereignty and like liberation, like we actually

2563
02:20:05,280 --> 02:20:08,120
Speaker 9: deserve better than that, you know, being deserve to not

2564
02:20:08,160 --> 02:20:13,520
Speaker 9: actually be like held within the confines of like what

2565
02:20:13,680 --> 02:20:17,240
Speaker 9: is possible in a nation state, as I think like

2566
02:20:17,280 --> 02:20:18,280
Speaker 9: all people deserve.

2567
02:20:18,760 --> 02:20:19,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, totally.

2568
02:20:20,160 --> 02:20:22,400
Speaker 9: So that's kind of how I've come to this point now.

2569
02:20:22,720 --> 02:20:24,680
Speaker 5: No, and I really want to talk to you more

2570
02:20:24,720 --> 02:20:27,480
Speaker 5: about how you've landed where you are with your beliefs,

2571
02:20:28,040 --> 02:20:30,920
Speaker 5: but yeah, I think what also gets forgotten is that

2572
02:20:31,040 --> 02:20:35,080
Speaker 5: pre nineteen forty eight, there were Jewish people in Palestine,

2573
02:20:35,280 --> 02:20:39,640
Speaker 5: you know, and Christian people everyone got along. I'm from Syria,

2574
02:20:39,720 --> 02:20:42,959
Speaker 5: but even in Syria, everyone, like in all in most

2575
02:20:42,959 --> 02:20:45,119
Speaker 5: Middle Eastern countries, there was a mix of all these

2576
02:20:45,120 --> 02:20:48,400
Speaker 5: religions and they all got along and I think that's

2577
02:20:48,400 --> 02:20:51,960
Speaker 5: what really angers me when it comes to like basically

2578
02:20:52,040 --> 02:20:55,320
Speaker 5: like the news saying it's like this ancient religious conflict,

2579
02:20:55,400 --> 02:20:58,600
Speaker 5: because that's just simply not true. And I think that's

2580
02:20:58,640 --> 02:21:02,640
Speaker 5: a huge defense that a lot of like militant Zionists have,

2581
02:21:02,840 --> 02:21:08,440
Speaker 5: where it's like this eternal cultural religious war and it's

2582
02:21:08,520 --> 02:21:13,240
Speaker 5: simply just false. I think that's something that always bothers me.

2583
02:21:15,120 --> 02:21:16,680
Speaker 5: I just want to give a little bit more history

2584
02:21:16,760 --> 02:21:18,640
Speaker 5: just to bring us to like current day. Just I

2585
02:21:18,640 --> 02:21:20,760
Speaker 5: think it's this stuff is a little bit interesting. So

2586
02:21:21,440 --> 02:21:25,720
Speaker 5: in nineteen seventy five the UN General Assembly, they passed

2587
02:21:25,720 --> 02:21:29,879
Speaker 5: Resolution three three seventy nine, which designated Zionism as a

2588
02:21:29,920 --> 02:21:34,360
Speaker 5: form of racism and racial discrimination. However, this resolution was

2589
02:21:34,400 --> 02:21:38,200
Speaker 5: repealed in nineteen ninety one by replacing Resolution three three

2590
02:21:38,320 --> 02:21:42,280
Speaker 5: seventy nine with Resolution four to six Slash eighty six,

2591
02:21:43,000 --> 02:21:46,400
Speaker 5: and this new resolution it was adopted on December sixteenth

2592
02:21:46,400 --> 02:21:49,840
Speaker 5: and nineteen ninety one. It revoked the determination in the

2593
02:21:49,879 --> 02:21:53,879
Speaker 5: previous resolution three three seven nine determining Zionism as racist,

2594
02:21:54,760 --> 02:21:58,240
Speaker 5: and Israel had made the certification of this resolution a

2595
02:21:58,320 --> 02:22:02,640
Speaker 5: condition of its participation in the Madrid Peace Conference, which

2596
02:22:02,680 --> 02:22:04,520
Speaker 5: was a conference that was held at the end of

2597
02:22:04,600 --> 02:22:08,600
Speaker 5: nineteen ninety one, and it was also raised under pressure

2598
02:22:08,760 --> 02:22:15,440
Speaker 5: of the administration of President Bush. Papa, I just find

2599
02:22:15,440 --> 02:22:17,600
Speaker 5: that funny, No, hw Bush, I'm sorry, this is not

2600
02:22:17,640 --> 02:22:20,680
Speaker 5: funny stuff. I just this is how I cope. But

2601
02:22:21,800 --> 02:22:26,080
Speaker 5: basically the revocation was simply this one sentence, the General

2602
02:22:26,160 --> 02:22:29,920
Speaker 5: Assembly decides to revoke the determination contained in its resolution

2603
02:22:30,080 --> 02:22:34,240
Speaker 5: three three seventy nine of tenth of December nineteen seventy five.

2604
02:22:34,480 --> 02:22:39,200
Speaker 5: And this motion was supported by one hundred and eleven nations,

2605
02:22:39,240 --> 02:22:42,520
Speaker 5: including the ninety nations who had sponsored it in the

2606
02:22:42,560 --> 02:22:45,760
Speaker 5: first place, and it was opposed by twenty five nations

2607
02:22:45,800 --> 02:22:49,600
Speaker 5: and abstained by thirteen nations. And I just thought that

2608
02:22:49,800 --> 02:22:53,480
Speaker 5: was incredibly fascinating. It also just like illustrates the power

2609
02:22:53,560 --> 02:22:58,080
Speaker 5: that Israel has always kind of like held like as

2610
02:22:58,120 --> 02:23:01,400
Speaker 5: far as like a political state in like world affairs.

2611
02:23:02,040 --> 02:23:04,440
Speaker 5: And if you've listened to my previous episodes, then you

2612
02:23:04,520 --> 02:23:08,960
Speaker 5: know that at the current saying time, and like for

2613
02:23:09,040 --> 02:23:11,400
Speaker 5: decades leading up to this, the government in Israel is

2614
02:23:11,440 --> 02:23:16,280
Speaker 5: extremely far right and Zionist to the point where it's

2615
02:23:16,320 --> 02:23:19,959
Speaker 5: extremely racist, and they've built in apartheid state based around

2616
02:23:20,000 --> 02:23:25,640
Speaker 5: their Zionism basically, Dianis values serve as the ideological foundation

2617
02:23:25,760 --> 02:23:30,840
Speaker 5: of Israel. I think that's kind of a big part

2618
02:23:30,879 --> 02:23:33,000
Speaker 5: of why Israel was created in the first place, was

2619
02:23:33,040 --> 02:23:37,199
Speaker 5: this hope for a place where everyone was safe. Obviously

2620
02:23:37,240 --> 02:23:39,879
Speaker 5: that kind of became twisted and they went about it

2621
02:23:39,879 --> 02:23:43,800
Speaker 5: in a terrible way. But I do understand what you

2622
02:23:43,840 --> 02:23:47,600
Speaker 5: mean also by having empathy for the original feeling of it,

2623
02:23:47,680 --> 02:23:51,320
Speaker 5: because I feel the same. I think every marginalized community

2624
02:23:51,360 --> 02:23:54,840
Speaker 5: wants what the original idea of Zionism had. I think

2625
02:23:54,920 --> 02:23:58,400
Speaker 5: Zionis today is defined so differently, and I think that's

2626
02:23:58,480 --> 02:24:03,320
Speaker 5: really unfortunate because it didn't have to become a racist ideology,

2627
02:24:03,520 --> 02:24:06,160
Speaker 5: but it did. I've been rambling too much, and we're

2628
02:24:06,160 --> 02:24:08,199
Speaker 5: going to take our first break. When we come back.

2629
02:24:08,360 --> 02:24:11,240
Speaker 5: I want to talk to you about you, so br

2630
02:24:11,320 --> 02:24:16,680
Speaker 5: B and we're back, Ammie take it away what he

2631
02:24:16,720 --> 02:24:21,520
Speaker 5: had a response for the thing I said about how

2632
02:24:21,840 --> 02:24:25,160
Speaker 5: Zionist values they serve as the ideological foundation of Israel.

2633
02:24:26,360 --> 02:24:29,400
Speaker 9: Yeah, And I think one of the things I try

2634
02:24:29,440 --> 02:24:31,360
Speaker 9: to like make a point of kind of as like

2635
02:24:31,400 --> 02:24:33,640
Speaker 9: a Jewish anarchist specifically, like what I was saying prior

2636
02:24:33,800 --> 02:24:38,080
Speaker 9: is that that's again like kind of just the inevitable, well,

2637
02:24:38,120 --> 02:24:42,840
Speaker 9: in my mind, like the inevitable outcome of like a

2638
02:24:42,959 --> 02:24:45,279
Speaker 9: state is that there is going to be some amount

2639
02:24:45,400 --> 02:24:51,320
Speaker 9: of like division of population, like oppression of a certain

2640
02:24:51,320 --> 02:24:54,760
Speaker 9: class of people or certain group of people, a consolidation

2641
02:24:54,840 --> 02:24:59,840
Speaker 9: of power in the hands of a few. So again

2642
02:25:00,120 --> 02:25:04,840
Speaker 9: me like that's where this like the original idea of

2643
02:25:04,879 --> 02:25:07,640
Speaker 9: like let's have a place where Jews can have like

2644
02:25:07,680 --> 02:25:13,480
Speaker 9: safety and sovereignty and cultural like flourishing. Like attaching that

2645
02:25:13,560 --> 02:25:16,320
Speaker 9: to a state was like kind of always bound to fail,

2646
02:25:17,040 --> 02:25:19,960
Speaker 9: but not inherent like not exactly, like not innatially, because

2647
02:25:19,959 --> 02:25:23,680
Speaker 9: that desire is like a wrong desire. Yeah, and then

2648
02:25:23,720 --> 02:25:27,640
Speaker 9: when we pile in kind of like like other people's

2649
02:25:27,720 --> 02:25:30,080
Speaker 9: interests in terms of like the West having like an

2650
02:25:30,160 --> 02:25:35,039
Speaker 9: interest in having like Israel being like a friendly like

2651
02:25:35,720 --> 02:25:37,840
Speaker 9: I consider like a proxy state for the West like

2652
02:25:37,840 --> 02:25:42,200
Speaker 9: in the Middle East where they can you know, like

2653
02:25:42,240 --> 02:25:44,840
Speaker 9: we've seen like send their police officers to be trained

2654
02:25:45,480 --> 02:25:48,320
Speaker 9: in these ways. But also the West is benefiting from

2655
02:25:48,320 --> 02:25:51,440
Speaker 9: that exchange. They have a little hold in the Middle

2656
02:25:51,480 --> 02:25:55,160
Speaker 9: East like they always wanted to exactly, So their interest

2657
02:25:55,400 --> 02:26:00,200
Speaker 9: is to like maintain Israel like as something that they

2658
02:26:00,200 --> 02:26:03,400
Speaker 9: can have influence in and have this kind of control

2659
02:26:03,440 --> 02:26:08,280
Speaker 9: over and like to make it creepier like the Christian

2660
02:26:10,080 --> 02:26:13,280
Speaker 9: like Evangelical Zionism, like Christian Zionism is also like a

2661
02:26:13,400 --> 02:26:18,320
Speaker 9: huge influence in the US. There was just a really

2662
02:26:18,320 --> 02:26:20,400
Speaker 9: interesting documentary I can't remember the name now that that

2663
02:26:20,520 --> 02:26:22,760
Speaker 9: was released like a year or two ago about this,

2664
02:26:23,520 --> 02:26:26,640
Speaker 9: and Christian Zionists actually make up like a larger lobbying

2665
02:26:26,879 --> 02:26:31,800
Speaker 9: body than like Jewish Zionists in the US just because backwards,

2666
02:26:32,680 --> 02:26:37,400
Speaker 9: because they there's just so many more evangelicals and their

2667
02:26:37,560 --> 02:26:41,000
Speaker 9: interest in the state of Israel is that Jews will

2668
02:26:41,040 --> 02:26:43,199
Speaker 9: return there and then the rapture will happen.

2669
02:26:43,879 --> 02:26:45,959
Speaker 5: Wait can you Yeah, I actually want to talk to

2670
02:26:45,959 --> 02:26:48,240
Speaker 5: you about this because I one hundred percent think you

2671
02:26:48,240 --> 02:26:50,160
Speaker 5: know more about this than I do, because I do.

2672
02:26:50,800 --> 02:26:54,000
Speaker 5: I have heard that there are a lot of evangelical

2673
02:26:54,560 --> 02:26:59,680
Speaker 5: Christians that are huge supporters of Zionism. Yeah, one, can

2674
02:26:59,720 --> 02:27:03,240
Speaker 5: you to like if you know how that even like

2675
02:27:03,360 --> 02:27:08,199
Speaker 5: where that uh, I don't know, not solid I guess

2676
02:27:08,200 --> 02:27:13,440
Speaker 5: like solidarity with Zionism came about, and also what they

2677
02:27:13,480 --> 02:27:16,119
Speaker 5: believe like the whole rapture thing. Please, I would love

2678
02:27:16,160 --> 02:27:16,880
Speaker 5: to know more.

2679
02:27:18,320 --> 02:27:20,760
Speaker 9: Yet again, like I highly recommend people like watch whatever

2680
02:27:20,760 --> 02:27:24,160
Speaker 9: this documentary is. You just google like Christian Zionism, because

2681
02:27:24,160 --> 02:27:25,959
Speaker 9: I've mostly learned from that and from my own like

2682
02:27:26,000 --> 02:27:27,000
Speaker 9: internet wormholes.

2683
02:27:28,200 --> 02:27:30,200
Speaker 5: I've just looked it up, and I think it's Till

2684
02:27:30,360 --> 02:27:33,959
Speaker 5: Kingdom Come, a twenty twenty film, right, Yeah. Cool.

2685
02:27:34,360 --> 02:27:37,160
Speaker 9: And so what I understand is there is this like

2686
02:27:38,040 --> 02:27:40,760
Speaker 9: somewhere in the Christian world that like it has roots

2687
02:27:40,800 --> 02:27:44,000
Speaker 9: at least in the evangelical world. Right now, this idea

2688
02:27:44,040 --> 02:27:46,920
Speaker 9: in the Rapture, which I don't know that much about,

2689
02:27:47,040 --> 02:27:50,800
Speaker 9: but apparently the Rapture will involve Jews returning to the

2690
02:27:50,879 --> 02:27:56,560
Speaker 9: land of Israel and Jesus returning and killing all of

2691
02:27:56,600 --> 02:27:57,200
Speaker 9: the Jews.

2692
02:27:57,560 --> 02:28:01,199
Speaker 5: Oh my god. Yeah, for Zionism.

2693
02:28:01,640 --> 02:28:07,840
Speaker 9: That is why they support Zionism. So they walked up. Yeah,

2694
02:28:07,879 --> 02:28:11,520
Speaker 9: so they want Jews to go back to the land

2695
02:28:11,600 --> 02:28:15,080
Speaker 9: the state of Israel in order for them to ultimately

2696
02:28:15,160 --> 02:28:16,920
Speaker 9: like be killed and go to help all.

2697
02:28:16,760 --> 02:28:18,920
Speaker 5: In one place and be conveniently killed.

2698
02:28:19,440 --> 02:28:21,960
Speaker 9: Yeah, And so that and that is one of the

2699
02:28:22,000 --> 02:28:25,879
Speaker 9: major lobbying arms, like when we're talking about like the

2700
02:28:26,000 --> 02:28:32,080
Speaker 9: US like sending money to to Israel, and like I

2701
02:28:32,120 --> 02:28:36,039
Speaker 9: just saw recently, like like most of the Republicans are

2702
02:28:36,080 --> 02:28:40,800
Speaker 9: like supporting this, yeah, the aid going to Israel, And

2703
02:28:40,840 --> 02:28:44,120
Speaker 9: it's like why are they doing that when generally they

2704
02:28:44,120 --> 02:28:47,920
Speaker 9: don't really support Jews, you know, like Republicans are not

2705
02:28:48,080 --> 02:28:49,840
Speaker 9: like BFFs with Jews.

2706
02:28:49,800 --> 02:28:52,440
Speaker 5: Like they don't really I mean inherently that way of

2707
02:28:52,480 --> 02:28:57,280
Speaker 5: seeing Zionism is one racist. Like it's like people are

2708
02:28:57,440 --> 02:28:59,320
Speaker 5: or not not even just that anti semitic, you know,

2709
02:28:59,560 --> 02:29:03,120
Speaker 5: anti that's really the defense all the time when you

2710
02:29:03,200 --> 02:29:06,640
Speaker 5: have like a Palestinian politician talk about Israel or anything,

2711
02:29:06,959 --> 02:29:09,000
Speaker 5: not even Zion as a managements in Israel, and then

2712
02:29:09,040 --> 02:29:12,280
Speaker 5: they get labeled at tes semitic, but that is one

2713
02:29:12,640 --> 02:29:14,920
Speaker 5: percent anti Semitics, it's actually anti Semitic.

2714
02:29:16,800 --> 02:29:19,280
Speaker 9: Well, and it's like it doesn't get noticed because like

2715
02:29:19,320 --> 02:29:23,320
Speaker 9: I feel like so much that like white Christians do

2716
02:29:23,600 --> 02:29:26,760
Speaker 9: in this country just like gets very overlooked as like

2717
02:29:27,320 --> 02:29:32,680
Speaker 9: something that actually has something that's actually worth like noticing

2718
02:29:32,720 --> 02:29:37,520
Speaker 9: and something that's actually worth like critiquing. So I am

2719
02:29:37,520 --> 02:29:39,840
Speaker 9: trying to understand like how did we get to this place,

2720
02:29:39,920 --> 02:29:42,400
Speaker 9: Like how did we get to this point where like, yeah,

2721
02:29:42,600 --> 02:29:46,600
Speaker 9: Israel is being supported and doing what it is doing

2722
02:29:46,680 --> 02:29:50,680
Speaker 9: right now to Palestinians. It has moved, in my opinion,

2723
02:29:50,800 --> 02:29:53,920
Speaker 9: so far away from like an actual like vision of

2724
02:29:54,240 --> 02:29:57,120
Speaker 9: like Jewish liberation. And then you look at like who's

2725
02:29:57,120 --> 02:30:00,000
Speaker 9: actually really supporting this project right now, and it's people

2726
02:30:00,040 --> 02:30:04,640
Speaker 9: who actually just want us to die. It becomes very convoluted,

2727
02:30:04,720 --> 02:30:09,160
Speaker 9: and it again motivates my anti Zionism in a lot

2728
02:30:09,160 --> 02:30:10,000
Speaker 9: of ways too.

2729
02:30:10,560 --> 02:30:13,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, can you tell me as little and as many

2730
02:30:13,680 --> 02:30:15,640
Speaker 5: details as you want, But how did you come to

2731
02:30:16,120 --> 02:30:18,640
Speaker 5: identify as an anti Zionist? How did you become how

2732
02:30:18,680 --> 02:30:21,119
Speaker 5: did you embrace that definition for yourself?

2733
02:30:21,720 --> 02:30:25,480
Speaker 9: I guess there's a lot of like aspects to that answer.

2734
02:30:26,320 --> 02:30:29,640
Speaker 9: One thing is like I do really care about like

2735
02:30:30,320 --> 02:30:34,119
Speaker 9: Jewish people being safe and Jewish people having our culture,

2736
02:30:34,680 --> 02:30:37,200
Speaker 9: like Jewish will be able to express our culture and

2737
02:30:37,240 --> 02:30:40,160
Speaker 9: be able to express who we are. And I think, yeah,

2738
02:30:40,160 --> 02:30:44,240
Speaker 9: like being two or three generations from like the Holocaust

2739
02:30:44,480 --> 02:30:48,400
Speaker 9: and just like feeling like the intensity of that loss

2740
02:30:48,480 --> 02:30:53,119
Speaker 9: of life and land and place has just like given

2741
02:30:53,160 --> 02:30:57,440
Speaker 9: me that feeling of like this is really important. And

2742
02:30:57,480 --> 02:30:59,080
Speaker 9: then also like living out a time right now in

2743
02:30:59,120 --> 02:31:02,400
Speaker 9: the US where like anti Semitism is violent and I've

2744
02:31:02,440 --> 02:31:05,320
Speaker 9: experienced that violence and it is like a threat to

2745
02:31:05,440 --> 02:31:08,200
Speaker 9: like my sense of safety and my ability to express

2746
02:31:08,240 --> 02:31:11,240
Speaker 9: my culture. I've just been like very obsessed with, like

2747
02:31:11,480 --> 02:31:15,080
Speaker 9: what does actually achieving those goals look like? Yeah, And

2748
02:31:15,800 --> 02:31:17,280
Speaker 9: when I look at the state of Israel and I

2749
02:31:17,320 --> 02:31:21,000
Speaker 9: see all eighteen year olds are conscripted into the army,

2750
02:31:21,080 --> 02:31:24,600
Speaker 9: which is like literally like my great grandfather left Russia

2751
02:31:24,640 --> 02:31:27,039
Speaker 9: because he didn't want to be conscripted into the Russian army.

2752
02:31:27,200 --> 02:31:30,040
Speaker 9: And a lot of Jews Aushraazi Jews in the US

2753
02:31:30,080 --> 02:31:34,560
Speaker 9: like have that story Like that's not liberation when I

2754
02:31:34,600 --> 02:31:37,120
Speaker 9: see that, like a lot of Jews in Israel have

2755
02:31:37,160 --> 02:31:40,640
Speaker 9: the choice of either being like very secular or being

2756
02:31:40,720 --> 02:31:46,000
Speaker 9: extremely religious. When even like a lot of more diverse

2757
02:31:47,160 --> 02:31:50,520
Speaker 9: like Jewish cultures have been assimilated into like this one

2758
02:31:50,560 --> 02:31:54,879
Speaker 9: monolithic culture. Languages have been lost, like practices have been lost,

2759
02:31:55,480 --> 02:31:58,879
Speaker 9: Like that's not like our culture being able to flourish.

2760
02:31:59,440 --> 02:32:03,320
Speaker 9: And also the violence done to Palestinians, like in the

2761
02:32:03,360 --> 02:32:05,119
Speaker 9: name of the state and the name of this liberation,

2762
02:32:06,120 --> 02:32:10,680
Speaker 9: like nothing, nothing is worth that violence. Ever, so all

2763
02:32:10,680 --> 02:32:14,160
Speaker 9: of those things have kind of coalesced into my Jewish

2764
02:32:14,160 --> 02:32:17,600
Speaker 9: anarchism of also analyzing that through the state apparatus itself

2765
02:32:17,680 --> 02:32:21,360
Speaker 9: and being like, oh, yeah, states will do this. We

2766
02:32:21,440 --> 02:32:23,480
Speaker 9: need to think more creatively, We need to think in

2767
02:32:23,520 --> 02:32:27,600
Speaker 9: a way that builds actual solidarity between Jewish community and

2768
02:32:28,320 --> 02:32:32,200
Speaker 9: Palestinian community and other marginalized people. And all of that

2769
02:32:32,240 --> 02:32:38,040
Speaker 9: has kind of just coalesced into Jewish anti Zionism, like

2770
02:32:38,120 --> 02:32:40,640
Speaker 9: just making sense on all of those levels.

2771
02:32:41,000 --> 02:32:44,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, I thank you for saying all of that.

2772
02:32:45,000 --> 02:32:49,040
Speaker 5: It's true. I think nothing is worth all that violence.

2773
02:32:49,080 --> 02:32:53,119
Speaker 5: And also I think unfortunately, like when you have any

2774
02:32:53,240 --> 02:32:55,760
Speaker 5: kind of desire, no matter how pure it is, because

2775
02:32:55,760 --> 02:32:58,640
Speaker 5: I think the basis of Zionism has a pure desire

2776
02:32:59,120 --> 02:33:03,280
Speaker 5: of safety and sovereignty. But when you have a desire

2777
02:33:04,120 --> 02:33:08,200
Speaker 5: and you add politics to it, or you add I

2778
02:33:08,200 --> 02:33:12,879
Speaker 5: don't know, any kind of like country war anything. When

2779
02:33:12,920 --> 02:33:17,520
Speaker 5: you add like modern day limitations and structures, that's when

2780
02:33:17,560 --> 02:33:21,560
Speaker 5: it becomes something else. It devolves into something that it

2781
02:33:21,600 --> 02:33:24,800
Speaker 5: really shouldn't be. Like, I think what disturbs me the

2782
02:33:24,840 --> 02:33:28,680
Speaker 5: most is how many young people are like rallying in

2783
02:33:28,720 --> 02:33:31,240
Speaker 5: the streets, like a lot of like far right groups

2784
02:33:31,280 --> 02:33:33,520
Speaker 5: in Israel will be like death to all Arabs or

2785
02:33:33,560 --> 02:33:36,440
Speaker 5: like they'll say the most heinous things as well as

2786
02:33:36,440 --> 02:33:40,640
Speaker 5: do the most heinous things. But I think it's unfortunate

2787
02:33:40,680 --> 02:33:44,240
Speaker 5: because I think even they kind of lost what zion

2788
02:33:44,280 --> 02:33:46,360
Speaker 5: is supposed to be about. It's not supposed to be

2789
02:33:46,400 --> 02:33:50,680
Speaker 5: about being only there just you and killing everybody else,

2790
02:33:51,200 --> 02:33:55,000
Speaker 5: or or seeing someone else as second as second citizens

2791
02:33:55,080 --> 02:33:58,960
Speaker 5: or anything. But no, I yeah, thank you for saying

2792
02:33:58,959 --> 02:34:00,879
Speaker 5: all of that. The arm thing is a really good

2793
02:34:00,879 --> 02:34:03,400
Speaker 5: thing to bring up as well, just because Palestine has

2794
02:34:03,440 --> 02:34:07,520
Speaker 5: no army, so it's a little bit silly to demand

2795
02:34:07,640 --> 02:34:11,000
Speaker 5: everyone and even join the army for this fake, imaginary

2796
02:34:11,040 --> 02:34:16,160
Speaker 5: bad guy. Not that there is not. There's definitely terrorist

2797
02:34:16,440 --> 02:34:20,520
Speaker 5: like activity on both sides, I would say, but the

2798
02:34:20,600 --> 02:34:23,520
Speaker 5: vast majority is like this imaginary big bad wolf that

2799
02:34:23,560 --> 02:34:26,119
Speaker 5: does not exist and is like powered by US and

2800
02:34:26,240 --> 02:34:28,200
Speaker 5: Western media totally.

2801
02:34:28,520 --> 02:34:32,080
Speaker 9: And that's where I start to think, like I don't

2802
02:34:32,080 --> 02:34:34,160
Speaker 9: know if this is like conspiracy or if this is real,

2803
02:34:34,240 --> 02:34:37,640
Speaker 9: but I start to think, like who is this actually serving,

2804
02:34:38,000 --> 02:34:41,760
Speaker 9: you know, Like who is it serving to, like, literally, yeah,

2805
02:34:41,879 --> 02:34:47,400
Speaker 9: put young people into a war every in every generation

2806
02:34:47,680 --> 02:34:52,160
Speaker 9: that comes through this country, And like, is it mostly

2807
02:34:52,280 --> 02:34:55,680
Speaker 9: serving like US and other like Western interests to be

2808
02:34:55,720 --> 02:34:58,760
Speaker 9: able to, yeah, have that land be their proxy state.

2809
02:35:00,520 --> 02:35:02,680
Speaker 9: And I don't have enough research to like back that

2810
02:35:02,720 --> 02:35:04,320
Speaker 9: claim up in a way that I would like to

2811
02:35:05,120 --> 02:35:08,800
Speaker 9: That's that's like my next like research wormhole is to

2812
02:35:08,840 --> 02:35:13,080
Speaker 9: try and yeah, just understand like that dynamic because I

2813
02:35:13,120 --> 02:35:16,120
Speaker 9: think something else that I have a lot of questions

2814
02:35:16,160 --> 02:35:17,760
Speaker 9: about you and like the formation of the state of

2815
02:35:17,800 --> 02:35:23,560
Speaker 9: Israel is like yeah, understanding that like England did or

2816
02:35:23,640 --> 02:35:26,840
Speaker 9: like I don't great Britain. In England, I think England

2817
02:35:27,480 --> 02:35:30,000
Speaker 9: they were the ones who like practitioned that land and

2818
02:35:30,000 --> 02:35:31,800
Speaker 9: like they were the ones who ultimately signed it over.

2819
02:35:32,240 --> 02:35:38,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, the British are rest possible for of the world. No, no,

2820
02:35:38,959 --> 02:35:39,960
Speaker 5: thank you no.

2821
02:35:40,840 --> 02:35:43,760
Speaker 9: And sometimes like forgetting that part of the story kind

2822
02:35:43,800 --> 02:35:47,960
Speaker 9: of almost like contributes to this kind of like anti

2823
02:35:47,959 --> 02:35:50,320
Speaker 9: Semitic rhetoric of like, oh the Jews are this like

2824
02:35:50,360 --> 02:35:53,000
Speaker 9: all powerful people who were just able to conquer this

2825
02:35:53,120 --> 02:35:53,920
Speaker 9: land on their own.

2826
02:35:54,320 --> 02:35:56,000
Speaker 5: It's like a conspiracy theory fuel.

2827
02:35:56,840 --> 02:36:00,440
Speaker 9: Yeah, when it's like no, like actually, like the Jews

2828
02:36:00,440 --> 02:36:03,120
Speaker 9: at that time did not have like global power in

2829
02:36:03,160 --> 02:36:08,080
Speaker 9: that way like England. Britain was like here you go,

2830
02:36:08,280 --> 02:36:10,080
Speaker 9: here's this land in the same way that they did

2831
02:36:10,600 --> 02:36:14,480
Speaker 9: like so much of the other colonized places in that

2832
02:36:14,560 --> 02:36:15,920
Speaker 9: world in the world.

2833
02:36:17,280 --> 02:36:21,879
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean the British are responsible for every bad thing, and.

2834
02:36:24,400 --> 02:36:27,800
Speaker 9: Like for me, like that bigger lens feels harder to

2835
02:36:27,840 --> 02:36:31,360
Speaker 9: talk about sometimes because I also like am also holding

2836
02:36:31,640 --> 02:36:35,480
Speaker 9: that like Jewish American support for the State of Israel

2837
02:36:35,560 --> 02:36:40,360
Speaker 9: like Fuels. Also the atrocity is happening against Palestidian's Jewish

2838
02:36:40,560 --> 02:36:44,880
Speaker 9: support for the IDEF in Israel, et cetera. Like obviously

2839
02:36:44,879 --> 02:36:48,040
Speaker 9: are responsible, and like I worry that if we don't

2840
02:36:48,480 --> 02:36:51,680
Speaker 9: look at these broader influences, that we're not actually going

2841
02:36:51,720 --> 02:36:56,720
Speaker 9: to understand like how to systemically stop this.

2842
02:36:57,000 --> 02:37:00,520
Speaker 5: You know, Yeah, you have to understand how you got

2843
02:37:00,520 --> 02:37:04,400
Speaker 5: somewhere to like determine how to get out of where

2844
02:37:04,400 --> 02:37:10,200
Speaker 5: you are, right, yeah, not to be too morbid or

2845
02:37:10,280 --> 02:37:12,720
Speaker 5: like to make this connection, but like Britain doing that,

2846
02:37:13,200 --> 02:37:17,600
Speaker 5: it's almost what the evangelical Christians want to do, right, like, oh,

2847
02:37:18,400 --> 02:37:21,080
Speaker 5: all you guys just stay here, Let's just shove them

2848
02:37:21,080 --> 02:37:24,360
Speaker 5: on this place that we don't really care about, and

2849
02:37:24,400 --> 02:37:28,600
Speaker 5: here you go, Like it doesn't even feel like genuine support,

2850
02:37:28,840 --> 02:37:30,720
Speaker 5: you know what I mean? Like I think in an

2851
02:37:30,800 --> 02:37:37,279
Speaker 5: alternate universe, Jewish people were welcomed into nations and Britain

2852
02:37:37,400 --> 02:37:40,119
Speaker 5: was like opening their doors to immigrants, I think that

2853
02:37:40,480 --> 02:37:45,520
Speaker 5: is a much more kind notion in my opinion, but

2854
02:37:45,520 --> 02:37:49,640
Speaker 5: what I do understand the desire to do otherwise. But

2855
02:37:49,720 --> 02:37:52,760
Speaker 5: it is interesting to connect those two now that we've

2856
02:37:52,760 --> 02:37:54,760
Speaker 5: talked about both of them, and how similar that is.

2857
02:37:55,360 --> 02:38:00,600
Speaker 9: And on that too, like the most like disturbing like

2858
02:38:01,520 --> 02:38:04,720
Speaker 9: thing that I've figured out in a while in relation

2859
02:38:04,800 --> 02:38:09,959
Speaker 9: to like this origin history of Zionism. So like in

2860
02:38:10,000 --> 02:38:14,440
Speaker 9: the beginning of like the Nazi power in Germany, in

2861
02:38:14,520 --> 02:38:17,640
Speaker 9: Germany specifically, before they wanted to like kill the Jews,

2862
02:38:18,440 --> 02:38:20,440
Speaker 9: they just wanted the Jews to leave, so they were

2863
02:38:20,480 --> 02:38:23,360
Speaker 9: like go, just go. And I saw this. I was

2864
02:38:23,360 --> 02:38:27,120
Speaker 9: in Berlin last summer, and I saw this picture of

2865
02:38:27,360 --> 02:38:32,600
Speaker 9: Nazis creating like a travel agencies in the right word,

2866
02:38:32,640 --> 02:38:37,200
Speaker 9: but like a travel depot that was specifically said like

2867
02:38:37,400 --> 02:38:41,400
Speaker 9: go to Palestine and was like directing Jews to go

2868
02:38:41,440 --> 02:38:46,080
Speaker 9: to Palestine. So like in that context, like the state

2869
02:38:46,120 --> 02:38:53,199
Speaker 9: of Israel then has like a totally different like frame

2870
02:38:53,360 --> 02:38:56,880
Speaker 9: of the George story almost yeah, of being the place

2871
02:38:56,920 --> 02:39:00,640
Speaker 9: where like the world could send their Jews when they

2872
02:39:00,640 --> 02:39:04,959
Speaker 9: didn't want them in their home countries. And and for me,

2873
02:39:05,000 --> 02:39:07,320
Speaker 9: that's also like a place that I've really fixated on

2874
02:39:07,520 --> 02:39:10,520
Speaker 9: is Like wait, wait, you can't just like say you're

2875
02:39:10,560 --> 02:39:14,600
Speaker 9: in solidarity with Choose because you've created this country and

2876
02:39:14,640 --> 02:39:17,160
Speaker 9: we all have to go there. Like you actually have

2877
02:39:17,200 --> 02:39:19,280
Speaker 9: to stop being anti Semitic, you know, you actually have

2878
02:39:19,400 --> 02:39:21,800
Speaker 9: to like you should work on that for yeah, like

2879
02:39:21,920 --> 02:39:24,160
Speaker 9: let us like live in your countries and be safe.

2880
02:39:24,280 --> 02:39:26,960
Speaker 9: And and it relates back to the evangelicals too, right,

2881
02:39:27,040 --> 02:39:31,680
Speaker 9: It's like they're all about like being Christian Zionists and

2882
02:39:31,720 --> 02:39:36,560
Speaker 9: like supporting Israel, but they're also like very anti Semitic

2883
02:39:36,640 --> 02:39:38,959
Speaker 9: in this country. So it's like it feels like a

2884
02:39:38,959 --> 02:39:42,959
Speaker 9: similar sort of dynamic of like yeah, yeah, we support

2885
02:39:43,000 --> 02:39:45,160
Speaker 9: you because we want you to go there, We want

2886
02:39:45,200 --> 02:39:47,880
Speaker 9: you to leave this country and go there, and we're

2887
02:39:47,879 --> 02:39:49,600
Speaker 9: not going to actually make it better for you in

2888
02:39:49,600 --> 02:39:52,400
Speaker 9: the place where you want to be, which is your

2889
02:39:52,440 --> 02:39:56,480
Speaker 9: family's home here, you know. So like that's another frame

2890
02:39:56,480 --> 02:40:00,240
Speaker 9: that I've been working in, which makes me just kind

2891
02:40:00,240 --> 02:40:03,520
Speaker 9: of have a bigger question of like global responsibility for

2892
02:40:04,240 --> 02:40:08,520
Speaker 9: what's happening in Israel Palestine right now, and how does

2893
02:40:08,720 --> 02:40:15,280
Speaker 9: this global resistance to actually addressing anti semitism like play

2894
02:40:15,280 --> 02:40:19,000
Speaker 9: into the continued violence against Palestinians.

2895
02:40:19,480 --> 02:40:23,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, and Just to be clear, being an anti Zionist

2896
02:40:23,480 --> 02:40:28,240
Speaker 5: is not anti Semitic. However, it is important to remember

2897
02:40:28,360 --> 02:40:32,080
Speaker 5: that just because someone is an Antizionist doesn't mean they're

2898
02:40:32,120 --> 02:40:36,760
Speaker 5: not anti Semitic. It's an important reminder for those engaging

2899
02:40:36,760 --> 02:40:40,320
Speaker 5: in anti Zionists organizing to also be doing work around

2900
02:40:40,400 --> 02:40:44,600
Speaker 5: anti Semitism both internally and the world at large, because

2901
02:40:44,640 --> 02:40:48,600
Speaker 5: both solidarity with Palestinians as well as ensuring that we're

2902
02:40:48,600 --> 02:40:51,720
Speaker 5: interrogating the anti Semitism in our lives and the world

2903
02:40:52,280 --> 02:40:56,800
Speaker 5: is vitally important in this moment. Now, I was trying

2904
02:40:56,840 --> 02:40:59,000
Speaker 5: to divide these two episodes up. You already know this,

2905
02:40:59,040 --> 02:41:01,000
Speaker 5: I've told you, but just for the audience, like I

2906
02:41:01,040 --> 02:41:03,240
Speaker 5: wanted to this first episode to be a little bit

2907
02:41:03,240 --> 02:41:06,280
Speaker 5: more about the history and about how we got here,

2908
02:41:06,840 --> 02:41:11,080
Speaker 5: and tomorrow's episode you'll hear about what I really want

2909
02:41:11,080 --> 02:41:12,280
Speaker 5: to talk to you about. It is like your work

2910
02:41:12,320 --> 02:41:14,640
Speaker 5: and ancestral healing and how that's a huge part of

2911
02:41:14,680 --> 02:41:17,520
Speaker 5: your work, and also the community that you've built in

2912
02:41:17,520 --> 02:41:21,840
Speaker 5: certain organizations. I think that is so critical when it

2913
02:41:21,879 --> 02:41:27,400
Speaker 5: comes to anti Zionism or having solidary of Palestinians, because

2914
02:41:27,400 --> 02:41:31,080
Speaker 5: that's what you need to even make change happen. Right.

2915
02:41:31,959 --> 02:41:35,040
Speaker 5: So on that note, I'm going to wrap it up

2916
02:41:35,080 --> 02:41:38,360
Speaker 5: here for now, Amy, can you plug? Like if people

2917
02:41:38,360 --> 02:41:39,960
Speaker 5: want to know more about you and your work, where

2918
02:41:40,000 --> 02:41:40,720
Speaker 5: they can find you.

2919
02:41:41,560 --> 02:41:46,080
Speaker 9: Yeah. So again, I'm Ami Wintrab and I just came

2920
02:41:46,120 --> 02:41:48,320
Speaker 9: out with this book To the Ghosts who are Still Living.

2921
02:41:49,240 --> 02:41:52,440
Speaker 9: You can buy it through my publisher, Strangers in a

2922
02:41:52,480 --> 02:41:56,640
Speaker 9: Tangled Wilderness, or you can also look up my website

2923
02:41:56,760 --> 02:42:01,760
Speaker 9: amiwintrab dot com. And the book touches on like, not

2924
02:42:01,920 --> 02:42:05,440
Speaker 9: Zionism specifically, but kind of the themes of like place

2925
02:42:05,560 --> 02:42:09,680
Speaker 9: and land and where do you choose belong in the world.

2926
02:42:10,600 --> 02:42:14,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, and their website also has a list of their

2927
02:42:14,440 --> 02:42:17,600
Speaker 5: other works, which I highly recommend you seek out. I

2928
02:42:17,640 --> 02:42:22,600
Speaker 5: think voices like amis like yours are really important when

2929
02:42:22,600 --> 02:42:25,720
Speaker 5: it comes to talking about I don't know, changing the

2930
02:42:25,720 --> 02:42:28,720
Speaker 5: world for the better in general, not even about anti Zionism,

2931
02:42:28,760 --> 02:42:32,120
Speaker 5: but like even just trying to assess something in a

2932
02:42:32,120 --> 02:42:35,120
Speaker 5: more critical way, in a more personal way, even thinking

2933
02:42:35,120 --> 02:42:39,359
Speaker 5: about it being ancestral healing, I think is so critical.

2934
02:42:39,400 --> 02:42:40,360
Speaker 5: So thank you so.

2935
02:42:40,400 --> 02:42:42,800
Speaker 9: Much for coming on, thank you for having me.

2936
02:42:43,240 --> 02:42:46,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, of course I'll talk to you tomorrow. For you guys,

2937
02:42:47,280 --> 02:42:49,200
Speaker 5: I'm going to keep talking to them right now for me,

2938
02:42:49,760 --> 02:42:53,959
Speaker 5: but but yeah, tune in tomorrow for a continuation of

2939
02:42:53,959 --> 02:43:13,879
Speaker 5: this lovely conversation. Bye, hello everybody, and welcome back to

2940
02:43:13,920 --> 02:43:16,360
Speaker 5: it could happen here. Yes, I still sound like this.

2941
02:43:16,520 --> 02:43:19,920
Speaker 5: It was the same day for me, but thank you

2942
02:43:19,959 --> 02:43:23,080
Speaker 5: for joining me again. Today is part two of a

2943
02:43:23,120 --> 02:43:28,440
Speaker 5: conversation I'm having with Amy Wine Traub about anti Sionism

2944
02:43:28,480 --> 02:43:31,360
Speaker 5: and why it's important. And today I want to talk

2945
02:43:31,360 --> 02:43:35,720
Speaker 5: about their work and how much of anti siism is

2946
02:43:35,760 --> 02:43:39,800
Speaker 5: actually based in ancestral healing. And yeah, I want to

2947
02:43:39,840 --> 02:43:42,760
Speaker 5: just tell you guys a bunch of good stuff because

2948
02:43:42,920 --> 02:43:47,720
Speaker 5: AMI's work I think is really important. So welcome back, Hi,

2949
02:43:47,879 --> 02:43:48,640
Speaker 5: thanks for having me.

2950
02:43:49,000 --> 02:43:49,280
Speaker 6: Hello.

2951
02:43:49,360 --> 02:43:52,840
Speaker 5: Of course, I think when we first started talking about

2952
02:43:52,840 --> 02:43:57,200
Speaker 5: wanting to record together, you mentioned that talking about ancestral

2953
02:43:57,240 --> 02:44:00,760
Speaker 5: healing was really integral and even your definition of Tai Zionism.

2954
02:44:00,800 --> 02:44:02,400
Speaker 5: Can you kind of explain why.

2955
02:44:03,000 --> 02:44:06,720
Speaker 9: Sure, Yeah, I feel like maybe it's also like the

2956
02:44:06,760 --> 02:44:11,120
Speaker 9: other way around, like my coming into like anti Zionism

2957
02:44:11,879 --> 02:44:15,360
Speaker 9: led me into a path of ancestral healing, because I

2958
02:44:15,360 --> 02:44:18,720
Speaker 9: think something that we talked about, like in the last episode,

2959
02:44:19,520 --> 02:44:25,320
Speaker 9: is that a lot of the motivation for at least

2960
02:44:25,360 --> 02:44:28,680
Speaker 9: like the early origins of Zionism was the desire for

2961
02:44:28,720 --> 02:44:33,400
Speaker 9: safety and the desire to like have cultural expression, like

2962
02:44:33,480 --> 02:44:36,960
Speaker 9: Jewish cultural expression, be possible. And so I started to think,

2963
02:44:37,040 --> 02:44:41,280
Speaker 9: like why were those the desires at the time, and

2964
02:44:42,600 --> 02:44:49,959
Speaker 9: sort of moving back into my family's history, which so

2965
02:44:50,120 --> 02:44:53,360
Speaker 9: much of it has been like silenced because of like

2966
02:44:53,480 --> 02:44:56,959
Speaker 9: the pain of the history and also in some ways

2967
02:44:57,000 --> 02:44:59,840
Speaker 9: because you've been told, you know, like you have a

2968
02:45:00,400 --> 02:45:02,360
Speaker 9: you have the home you live in now, and you

2969
02:45:02,440 --> 02:45:05,360
Speaker 9: have the state of Israel, and you don't have to

2970
02:45:05,360 --> 02:45:08,440
Speaker 9: think about where you came from, you know. And so

2971
02:45:08,480 --> 02:45:10,000
Speaker 9: a lot of my work has been kind of like

2972
02:45:10,560 --> 02:45:12,920
Speaker 9: opening up that conversation of the like, but where where

2973
02:45:12,959 --> 02:45:15,640
Speaker 9: did my great grandparents like actually come from? Like what

2974
02:45:15,800 --> 02:45:16,440
Speaker 9: was that place?

2975
02:45:17,600 --> 02:45:18,400
Speaker 5: Why do they leave?

2976
02:45:19,120 --> 02:45:22,480
Speaker 9: What is the longing that we have for safety, longman

2977
02:45:22,560 --> 02:45:25,680
Speaker 9: we have for home? And what does it look like

2978
02:45:25,720 --> 02:45:30,280
Speaker 9: to actually turn that longing back to yeah, for my family,

2979
02:45:30,320 --> 02:45:33,440
Speaker 9: like our homes in Eastern Europe. And That's kind of

2980
02:45:33,600 --> 02:45:35,920
Speaker 9: where I've been positioning a lot of my work these days.

2981
02:45:37,760 --> 02:45:39,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think you bring up a good point about

2982
02:45:39,560 --> 02:45:45,840
Speaker 5: how even having Israel there almost eRASS like the the

2983
02:45:45,879 --> 02:45:48,400
Speaker 5: history of a lot of Jewish people, right, because it

2984
02:45:48,520 --> 02:45:51,360
Speaker 5: kind of just like, yeah, it's almost as if like, oh,

2985
02:45:51,360 --> 02:45:53,040
Speaker 5: this is where we all come from and this is

2986
02:45:53,040 --> 02:45:55,680
Speaker 5: where we all end up, and it's just simply not true.

2987
02:45:56,520 --> 02:46:00,000
Speaker 5: Can you tell me, well, first, could you define and

2988
02:46:00,080 --> 02:46:02,039
Speaker 5: esctual healing to me? And like what that means to you?

2989
02:46:03,320 --> 02:46:06,039
Speaker 9: I feel like for me, and secial healing has been

2990
02:46:06,040 --> 02:46:08,959
Speaker 9: the process of opening up to the voices of my

2991
02:46:09,080 --> 02:46:13,880
Speaker 9: ancestors and allowing them to really speak to me and

2992
02:46:14,000 --> 02:46:16,840
Speaker 9: starting to see that like the pain and the grief

2993
02:46:17,120 --> 02:46:21,360
Speaker 9: and yeah, just the sorrow that I was carrying in

2994
02:46:21,400 --> 02:46:25,080
Speaker 9: my own body wasn't just my own Yeah, And that

2995
02:46:25,240 --> 02:46:30,400
Speaker 9: sort of growing awareness has become like the avenue to

2996
02:46:30,480 --> 02:46:36,240
Speaker 9: which I can do ancestral healing, which sometimes looks like

2997
02:46:37,160 --> 02:46:40,640
Speaker 9: learning a ton about like a specific Jewish practice that

2998
02:46:40,920 --> 02:46:45,039
Speaker 9: perhaps someone in my family at some point did and

2999
02:46:45,080 --> 02:46:51,960
Speaker 9: we've now forgotten. Or sometimes it looks like researching on Wikipedia,

3000
02:46:52,040 --> 02:46:56,320
Speaker 9: like the flowers that grew in my family's like Stuttle

3001
02:46:56,720 --> 02:47:01,400
Speaker 9: in Eastern Europe. And sometimes it looks like just crying

3002
02:47:01,520 --> 02:47:04,600
Speaker 9: and being sad about like the things that we've lost.

3003
02:47:06,640 --> 02:47:10,760
Speaker 9: And sometimes it looks like talking to my ancestors like

3004
02:47:11,200 --> 02:47:18,440
Speaker 9: in meditation or trance states and offering them back the

3005
02:47:18,480 --> 02:47:20,240
Speaker 9: healing that I'm doing in this generation.

3006
02:47:21,000 --> 02:47:25,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, I love that. I love especially the flowers I

3007
02:47:25,080 --> 02:47:27,640
Speaker 5: think really got me, just like those little details are

3008
02:47:27,640 --> 02:47:34,160
Speaker 5: so important and really defined a place. I mean, I

3009
02:47:34,200 --> 02:47:37,640
Speaker 5: think it's astual healing is so important for like most

3010
02:47:37,680 --> 02:47:41,040
Speaker 5: people in general, I think it's kind of taken maybe

3011
02:47:41,120 --> 02:47:45,600
Speaker 5: not taken too seriously by some normies, I don't know,

3012
02:47:46,120 --> 02:47:49,760
Speaker 5: but even for me, I mean, our histories are very different.

3013
02:47:49,879 --> 02:47:52,720
Speaker 5: But I think what you said about like recognizing that,

3014
02:47:52,760 --> 02:47:54,600
Speaker 5: like your pain is not just your own, Like you're

3015
02:47:54,600 --> 02:47:58,720
Speaker 5: carrying a lot of a bird in generation from generation

3016
02:47:58,760 --> 02:48:02,560
Speaker 5: to generation, and I think think acknowledging that and learning

3017
02:48:02,600 --> 02:48:05,280
Speaker 5: more about yourself anyone can do that.

3018
02:48:05,480 --> 02:48:05,720
Speaker 8: You don't.

3019
02:48:05,800 --> 02:48:08,920
Speaker 5: It doesn't have to be a certain I don't know.

3020
02:48:08,959 --> 02:48:10,720
Speaker 5: I think that's what I always kind of want to

3021
02:48:11,480 --> 02:48:14,359
Speaker 5: get across that, Like, even for me, I found ancestral

3022
02:48:14,400 --> 02:48:16,840
Speaker 5: healings to be really important. I define it in a

3023
02:48:16,840 --> 02:48:21,000
Speaker 5: different way, but it's still like I don't know a

3024
02:48:21,040 --> 02:48:23,160
Speaker 5: lot about my family's history, so that's been a little

3025
02:48:23,160 --> 02:48:25,440
Speaker 5: bit like a huge origin of that is because like

3026
02:48:26,040 --> 02:48:29,240
Speaker 5: there's a lot of confusion there, but I love that

3027
02:48:29,360 --> 02:48:33,560
Speaker 5: you are taking as like an internal journey and also

3028
02:48:33,720 --> 02:48:36,600
Speaker 5: like recognizing that there's a connection there. I think people

3029
02:48:36,600 --> 02:48:38,959
Speaker 5: don't look at it as much as I want them to.

3030
02:48:39,040 --> 02:48:40,680
Speaker 5: I guess I think it's a little bit too petty

3031
02:48:40,680 --> 02:48:42,880
Speaker 5: for people, and it really isn't. It's just about like

3032
02:48:44,000 --> 02:48:47,120
Speaker 5: evolving and knowing yourself better, like when you really when

3033
02:48:47,120 --> 02:48:49,120
Speaker 5: it really comes down to it, totally.

3034
02:48:50,040 --> 02:48:53,039
Speaker 9: Yeah, and for me too, Like so a lot of

3035
02:48:53,520 --> 02:48:57,640
Speaker 9: in my book, I talk a lot about like birch

3036
02:48:57,680 --> 02:49:02,920
Speaker 9: trees and the flower that grow and this places of

3037
02:49:02,959 --> 02:49:05,200
Speaker 9: my where my ancestors were in, like the lakes and

3038
02:49:05,280 --> 02:49:08,440
Speaker 9: the frogs. And a big reason for that too is

3039
02:49:08,480 --> 02:49:12,959
Speaker 9: because like my ancestors aren't there anymore, Like there are

3040
02:49:13,040 --> 02:49:16,440
Speaker 9: no more like Jewish people in those places necessarily to

3041
02:49:16,520 --> 02:49:19,680
Speaker 9: like tell the story. So when I think about, like

3042
02:49:19,720 --> 02:49:25,360
Speaker 9: how do I really learn about who my ancestors were

3043
02:49:26,280 --> 02:49:28,280
Speaker 9: or what their practices and their culture was, It's like, oh,

3044
02:49:28,280 --> 02:49:30,240
Speaker 9: at least I can see what they saw, you know.

3045
02:49:30,320 --> 02:49:33,680
Speaker 9: I can see the trees, I can see the frogs,

3046
02:49:33,879 --> 02:49:37,440
Speaker 9: and the land is holding that story for me if

3047
02:49:37,440 --> 02:49:39,840
Speaker 9: I can just open up and listen to it. So

3048
02:49:39,879 --> 02:49:42,600
Speaker 9: that's also been like part of it for me as

3049
02:49:42,640 --> 02:49:46,880
Speaker 9: well as like opening up like opportunity for like connection

3050
02:49:47,160 --> 02:49:51,320
Speaker 9: and joy even in the face of a lot of destruction.

3051
02:49:53,360 --> 02:49:55,879
Speaker 9: And again, also like you're saying, I really think this

3052
02:49:56,000 --> 02:50:00,240
Speaker 9: is something that like most people can do in is

3053
02:50:00,240 --> 02:50:04,760
Speaker 9: really enriching and would help us like all kind of

3054
02:50:04,800 --> 02:50:08,440
Speaker 9: metabolize like so much of what has happened in the

3055
02:50:08,480 --> 02:50:12,240
Speaker 9: twentieth century. Before the twentieth century, just like there's been

3056
02:50:12,280 --> 02:50:14,959
Speaker 9: so much like disruption and violence like that's happened for

3057
02:50:15,040 --> 02:50:20,000
Speaker 9: so many people. Yeah, and still happening obviously, and in America,

3058
02:50:20,360 --> 02:50:22,200
Speaker 9: in like the dominant American culture, I think there's like

3059
02:50:22,240 --> 02:50:25,560
Speaker 9: a really big emphasis on like forgetting and just kind

3060
02:50:25,560 --> 02:50:31,199
Speaker 9: of being in this like present moment and not realizing

3061
02:50:31,240 --> 02:50:34,840
Speaker 9: that we've come from somewhere. And I just really resist

3062
02:50:34,879 --> 02:50:37,760
Speaker 9: that that like urge to forget, and I for me

3063
02:50:37,800 --> 02:50:39,800
Speaker 9: that's also part of ancestral healing is like how do

3064
02:50:39,879 --> 02:50:40,920
Speaker 9: we learn to remember?

3065
02:50:41,800 --> 02:50:44,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that so much.

3066
02:50:46,400 --> 02:50:46,520
Speaker 8: Now.

3067
02:50:46,560 --> 02:50:49,760
Speaker 5: I think the thing that really made me realize that

3068
02:50:50,360 --> 02:50:54,520
Speaker 5: a cecil healing is extremely real and necessary was maybe

3069
02:50:54,560 --> 02:50:56,520
Speaker 5: like a on a how long ago was it, like

3070
02:50:56,600 --> 02:51:01,440
Speaker 5: ten years ago? I learned something about a family member

3071
02:51:01,680 --> 02:51:04,720
Speaker 5: that really put into context something that I was going

3072
02:51:04,760 --> 02:51:07,680
Speaker 5: through and that I have always felt, and I just

3073
02:51:07,760 --> 02:51:11,280
Speaker 5: part with who I am. And I'm being vague about

3074
02:51:11,280 --> 02:51:13,760
Speaker 5: it because it's just personal. But we could talk off

3075
02:51:13,800 --> 02:51:17,160
Speaker 5: Mike if you want, but for audience purposes, the point

3076
02:51:17,200 --> 02:51:20,400
Speaker 5: that I'm trying to get across is I learned something,

3077
02:51:21,640 --> 02:51:24,560
Speaker 5: and I learned more about myself, and I was almost

3078
02:51:24,560 --> 02:51:27,600
Speaker 5: more at peace with how much I was struggling with

3079
02:51:27,640 --> 02:51:32,520
Speaker 5: what it was, and I let myself be okay with

3080
02:51:32,560 --> 02:51:34,520
Speaker 5: how much I was struggling and the pain I was

3081
02:51:34,560 --> 02:51:36,680
Speaker 5: carrying because I recognized it wasn't just mine, it was

3082
02:51:37,840 --> 02:51:41,240
Speaker 5: it was hers. So yeah, I think if you ask

3083
02:51:41,400 --> 02:51:44,560
Speaker 5: me what the whole point of life is, it's self.

3084
02:51:44,840 --> 02:51:47,760
Speaker 5: Maybe not improvements the right word, but like self discovery

3085
02:51:47,959 --> 02:51:53,120
Speaker 5: and like I don't know nature and leaving a place

3086
02:51:53,160 --> 02:51:55,360
Speaker 5: better than you found it. I think it's as simple

3087
02:51:55,400 --> 02:51:58,680
Speaker 5: as that. I think it gets really convoluted with other things.

3088
02:51:59,520 --> 02:52:03,520
Speaker 5: But but yeah, as you said, I think anyone could

3089
02:52:03,520 --> 02:52:10,040
Speaker 5: benefit from learning more. Because I agree. I think what

3090
02:52:10,160 --> 02:52:12,200
Speaker 5: you said about forgetting really resonated with me.

3091
02:52:12,320 --> 02:52:16,240
Speaker 9: So yeah, I really like that. And like America has

3092
02:52:16,280 --> 02:52:18,600
Speaker 9: built on forgetting, like we're supposed to forget, like the

3093
02:52:18,680 --> 02:52:22,640
Speaker 9: genocide of indigenous peoples on this land. We're supposed to forget,

3094
02:52:23,320 --> 02:52:25,680
Speaker 9: like the horrors of slavery. You're supposed to just forget,

3095
02:52:25,920 --> 02:52:30,880
Speaker 9: like even what's happening right now in our country. So

3096
02:52:30,959 --> 02:52:35,760
Speaker 9: I think the act of remembering is like has so

3097
02:52:35,840 --> 02:52:40,400
Speaker 9: much power to shake like the current moment and to

3098
02:52:40,440 --> 02:52:41,600
Speaker 9: bring us to a new place.

3099
02:52:42,080 --> 02:52:45,959
Speaker 5: It's ironic that like the biggest slogan of one of

3100
02:52:45,959 --> 02:52:52,279
Speaker 5: America's most tragic events is don't forget when you about Yeah, totally,

3101
02:52:52,800 --> 02:52:55,600
Speaker 5: it's like, oh, this is the one thing you're gonna say, Yeah,

3102
02:52:56,800 --> 02:52:59,240
Speaker 5: let's forget about everything else though, totally.

3103
02:52:59,520 --> 02:53:04,640
Speaker 9: Yeah, And it's such like that's our memory. Like in Germany,

3104
02:53:04,680 --> 02:53:06,560
Speaker 9: they do have a lot about like memory culture. It's

3105
02:53:06,600 --> 02:53:08,680
Speaker 9: like a really like specific term that they have and

3106
02:53:08,720 --> 02:53:10,440
Speaker 9: like we don't even have that. Yeah, we don't even

3107
02:53:10,520 --> 02:53:11,760
Speaker 9: have that term here in the US.

3108
02:53:11,959 --> 02:53:13,880
Speaker 5: Wait, can you explain that to me a little bit,

3109
02:53:13,920 --> 02:53:15,320
Speaker 5: if you know, if you know about it.

3110
02:53:15,400 --> 02:53:19,959
Speaker 9: So Germany does have like a big like culture around

3111
02:53:20,160 --> 02:53:24,920
Speaker 9: like remembering the atrocities of the Holocaust, right, and they

3112
02:53:24,959 --> 02:53:29,720
Speaker 9: call it like memory culture. So that's like monuments or

3113
02:53:31,160 --> 02:53:35,520
Speaker 9: museums just like how is like World War two discussed?

3114
02:53:35,520 --> 02:53:40,359
Speaker 9: How is the Holocaust remembered? And yeah, like they remember

3115
02:53:40,560 --> 02:53:44,160
Speaker 9: a lot more than we do, which is ironic and

3116
02:53:44,200 --> 02:53:47,320
Speaker 9: also not in some ways. But yeah, we don't even

3117
02:53:47,360 --> 02:53:50,600
Speaker 9: have that concept here in the same way of like

3118
02:53:50,840 --> 02:53:57,680
Speaker 9: memory culture, like what is our cultural of remembering? And

3119
02:53:57,680 --> 02:53:59,680
Speaker 9: and I think obviously there has been some amount of

3120
02:53:59,680 --> 02:54:03,320
Speaker 9: that or and like yeah, like indigenous history and like

3121
02:54:03,360 --> 02:54:07,760
Speaker 9: Black history in relation to like monuments and Thanksgiving and

3122
02:54:07,800 --> 02:54:12,520
Speaker 9: like all of those things, but we don't have like

3123
02:54:12,560 --> 02:54:15,640
Speaker 9: really like memory culture like integrated into like a day

3124
02:54:15,680 --> 02:54:19,480
Speaker 9: to day existence, and in fact it's obviously being even

3125
02:54:19,520 --> 02:54:22,840
Speaker 9: fought against, like in Florida and other places like that.

3126
02:54:24,160 --> 02:54:27,800
Speaker 5: Oh, I just love that that idea of memory culture

3127
02:54:27,800 --> 02:54:30,760
Speaker 5: in general. I've never heard of that love that so much.

3128
02:54:30,920 --> 02:54:33,440
Speaker 5: And I mean just even thinking about it, just as

3129
02:54:33,480 --> 02:54:39,800
Speaker 5: we're talking Germany, has they refuse to forget an atrocity

3130
02:54:39,840 --> 02:54:43,080
Speaker 5: that they did, right? I think it's it's a little

3131
02:54:43,080 --> 02:54:46,959
Speaker 5: bit interesting that in America they've forgotten about the atrocities

3132
02:54:47,000 --> 02:54:49,400
Speaker 5: they did and they want to not forget about an

3133
02:54:49,400 --> 02:54:52,400
Speaker 5: atrocity that was done to them. So it's almost like

3134
02:54:53,240 --> 02:54:58,880
Speaker 5: very victimy of America if you ask me, because it's

3135
02:54:58,920 --> 02:55:03,800
Speaker 5: really easy not to get when someone wronged you, but

3136
02:55:03,879 --> 02:55:08,760
Speaker 5: I think it's really convenient to forget when you, you know,

3137
02:55:10,360 --> 02:55:12,520
Speaker 5: destroy the entire civilization. Do you know what I mean?

3138
02:55:12,560 --> 02:55:16,000
Speaker 5: To put it lightly exactly? And I'm not trying to

3139
02:55:16,000 --> 02:55:19,000
Speaker 5: say to take nine to eleven lightly at all. I

3140
02:55:19,040 --> 02:55:22,520
Speaker 5: think what happened was atrocious and terrible. But when you

3141
02:55:22,520 --> 02:55:26,600
Speaker 5: think about memory culture and what Germany is so committed

3142
02:55:26,640 --> 02:55:30,320
Speaker 5: to remembering versus America, just a little interesting to me

3143
02:55:30,440 --> 02:55:33,080
Speaker 5: now that I think about it, and who committed who

3144
02:55:33,320 --> 02:55:36,960
Speaker 5: or who committed what? Rather, Yeah, before I get it

3145
02:55:37,120 --> 02:55:39,720
Speaker 5: to Rambley, let's take our first break and we'll be

3146
02:55:40,000 --> 02:55:45,640
Speaker 5: right back, and we're back with Amy. Amy. When we

3147
02:55:45,640 --> 02:55:50,160
Speaker 5: were talking about recording together, in addition to ancestral healing,

3148
02:55:50,240 --> 02:55:54,880
Speaker 5: you talked about the importance of building a diasporus Jewish

3149
02:55:54,879 --> 02:55:57,880
Speaker 5: community that has committed to solidarity with Palestinians and other

3150
02:55:57,959 --> 02:56:03,879
Speaker 5: marginalized people, generally through an anarchist lens, and also building

3151
02:56:03,879 --> 02:56:07,760
Speaker 5: a safe community for Jews outside of Israel to counter

3152
02:56:07,959 --> 02:56:10,720
Speaker 5: the rhetoric that the only place that's safe for Jews

3153
02:56:10,760 --> 02:56:13,640
Speaker 5: is Israel. And as you said, it generally leads to

3154
02:56:13,720 --> 02:56:20,600
Speaker 5: a large focused on anti fascism and cultural reclamation, So

3155
02:56:20,720 --> 02:56:22,560
Speaker 5: can you talk to me a little bit about that.

3156
02:56:22,800 --> 02:56:26,280
Speaker 5: And then there's certain communities that you're a part of

3157
02:56:26,320 --> 02:56:28,440
Speaker 5: that I really want to get into, but let's start there.

3158
02:56:28,879 --> 02:56:31,920
Speaker 9: Yeah, So kind of in this journey, I would say

3159
02:56:32,040 --> 02:56:35,320
Speaker 9: of saying, okay, like if we're going to be a

3160
02:56:35,400 --> 02:56:37,800
Speaker 9: Jewish antiesionist, so we're going to be Jewish anarchists, Like

3161
02:56:37,800 --> 02:56:39,959
Speaker 9: what does that materially look like? Like how do we.

3162
02:56:41,480 --> 02:56:42,680
Speaker 5: Put that into practice?

3163
02:56:43,280 --> 02:56:44,840
Speaker 9: And so yeah, I kind of honed it on those

3164
02:56:44,920 --> 02:56:49,280
Speaker 9: two aspects again of safety and culture, and so a

3165
02:56:49,280 --> 02:56:53,720
Speaker 9: lot of my work now is around thinking about, like

3166
02:56:53,760 --> 02:56:57,760
Speaker 9: how do we create safety for Jews in the places

3167
02:56:57,760 --> 02:57:02,720
Speaker 9: where they are lithid in diaspora? Development into like growing

3168
02:57:02,800 --> 02:57:06,760
Speaker 9: to this like Jewish antisigonism and Jewish anarchism, trying to

3169
02:57:07,120 --> 02:57:09,080
Speaker 9: understand like what does it mean to like actually put

3170
02:57:09,080 --> 02:57:12,760
Speaker 9: this into practice and or what I was thinking of

3171
02:57:12,760 --> 02:57:16,000
Speaker 9: that I was trying to think of, like how do

3172
02:57:16,120 --> 02:57:19,000
Speaker 9: we create safety for Jews in the places where they

3173
02:57:19,000 --> 02:57:21,880
Speaker 9: want to live in diaspora and also create the environment

3174
02:57:22,000 --> 02:57:25,959
Speaker 9: where Jewish culture is able to flourish. And that's led me,

3175
02:57:26,360 --> 02:57:30,240
Speaker 9: Like you said to developing and supporting and working with

3176
02:57:30,640 --> 02:57:33,039
Speaker 9: a lot of Jewish communities that are like committed to

3177
02:57:33,040 --> 02:57:38,240
Speaker 9: like anti fascism, committed to solidarity with other marginalized peoples,

3178
02:57:39,000 --> 02:57:44,520
Speaker 9: and also really committed to like reclamation of Jewish traditions,

3179
02:57:45,160 --> 02:57:48,560
Speaker 9: specifically by like more marginalized people within the Jewish community

3180
02:57:48,560 --> 02:57:52,760
Speaker 9: as well. And I really see like those projects as

3181
02:57:53,400 --> 02:57:57,440
Speaker 9: like part of my like solidarity work, even though it

3182
02:57:57,560 --> 02:58:02,600
Speaker 9: is supporting like Jewish people peoples in the day to day,

3183
02:58:03,080 --> 02:58:06,880
Speaker 9: but ultimately it's creating a spaciousness where Jews don't feel

3184
02:58:06,879 --> 02:58:10,000
Speaker 9: like they have to like cling on to Zionism in

3185
02:58:10,040 --> 02:58:14,680
Speaker 9: the ways that they were before. And I'm really curious

3186
02:58:14,720 --> 02:58:21,680
Speaker 9: also of like how to sort of make that practice

3187
02:58:22,040 --> 02:58:28,120
Speaker 9: more visible to the general left, because I do like

3188
02:58:28,160 --> 02:58:29,800
Speaker 9: a big part of like the book I'm writing, like

3189
02:58:29,840 --> 02:58:33,480
Speaker 9: there's a whole section of me talking about what it's

3190
02:58:33,520 --> 02:58:36,200
Speaker 9: like to have lived in Pittsburgh like before and after

3191
02:58:36,280 --> 02:58:39,400
Speaker 9: the Tree of Life shooting, where I was a teacher

3192
02:58:39,440 --> 02:58:42,920
Speaker 9: at the synagogue at the time that had happened. So

3193
02:58:43,080 --> 02:58:46,720
Speaker 9: my life was like very impacted by this like really

3194
02:58:47,280 --> 02:58:53,760
Speaker 9: like horrible like active violence, like antisemitic violence, And the

3195
02:58:53,800 --> 02:58:58,360
Speaker 9: most shocking part was that like anti Semitism was occurring

3196
02:58:58,480 --> 02:59:02,160
Speaker 9: before that happened, and it still continued after, like in

3197
02:59:02,200 --> 02:59:06,600
Speaker 9: Pittsburgh specifically. So like the question left me with is

3198
02:59:06,680 --> 02:59:11,720
Speaker 9: like are we actually addressing like the rise of anti

3199
02:59:11,760 --> 02:59:16,840
Speaker 9: Semitism in America today? And that's why I want to

3200
02:59:16,879 --> 02:59:20,640
Speaker 9: like really talk about this praxis of like addressing anti

3201
02:59:20,680 --> 02:59:24,640
Speaker 9: Semitism and allowing in creating space where Jewish culture can flourish,

3202
02:59:24,760 --> 02:59:29,440
Speaker 9: like as a practice that I'm curious for more people

3203
02:59:29,480 --> 02:59:34,360
Speaker 9: on the left to understand as like vitally important like

3204
02:59:34,480 --> 02:59:40,320
Speaker 9: for Jewish people and also for solidarity with Palestinians too.

3205
02:59:42,600 --> 02:59:45,720
Speaker 9: So that's that's my topic that I'm very interested in

3206
02:59:45,800 --> 02:59:46,200
Speaker 9: right now.

3207
02:59:46,720 --> 02:59:49,880
Speaker 5: No, I love that. I think it's so important what

3208
02:59:49,920 --> 02:59:53,680
Speaker 5: you're saying and so necessary to build a community where

3209
02:59:53,840 --> 02:59:57,200
Speaker 5: Jewish people feel safe that so yeah, exactly, they don't

3210
02:59:57,240 --> 02:59:58,920
Speaker 5: have to cling on to Zionism as a way to

3211
02:59:58,959 --> 03:00:03,960
Speaker 5: feel accepted or safe or belong or have belonging anywhere.

3212
03:00:04,840 --> 03:00:07,480
Speaker 5: And in that way, it's it's really simple to see

3213
03:00:07,560 --> 03:00:12,840
Speaker 5: how that's intertwined with solidarity of Palestinians because it ultimately

3214
03:00:12,879 --> 03:00:15,200
Speaker 5: is saying like Israel is all the end, all be all,

3215
03:00:15,560 --> 03:00:18,959
Speaker 5: Like we're at the end of the day, people going

3216
03:00:19,000 --> 03:00:22,480
Speaker 5: through shit have We have our cultures and we have

3217
03:00:22,560 --> 03:00:25,600
Speaker 5: to stick by each other. Maybe that's a little bit elementary,

3218
03:00:25,640 --> 03:00:29,600
Speaker 5: but I think what I'm trying to say is I

3219
03:00:29,640 --> 03:00:36,160
Speaker 5: really appreciate that you have built this community and are

3220
03:00:36,200 --> 03:00:41,560
Speaker 5: so committed to continuing to enrich it and develop it,

3221
03:00:41,600 --> 03:00:46,000
Speaker 5: because I think that's so essential, especially just considering like

3222
03:00:47,040 --> 03:00:49,240
Speaker 5: the idea of Zionism in the first place, like that

3223
03:00:49,280 --> 03:00:53,680
Speaker 5: really pure intention that was there. I think it's okay

3224
03:00:53,800 --> 03:00:56,640
Speaker 5: to still live on in certain areas because it was pure.

3225
03:00:56,720 --> 03:01:00,119
Speaker 5: It wasn't it wasn't about Israel at all. Israel has

3226
03:01:00,120 --> 03:01:04,280
Speaker 5: today rather, Yeah, so can you tell me about this

3227
03:01:04,440 --> 03:01:06,240
Speaker 5: organization Rage?

3228
03:01:06,760 --> 03:01:11,640
Speaker 9: Yeah, so RAGE is this small collective called that CRADEM

3229
03:01:11,720 --> 03:01:15,440
Speaker 9: stands for Rebellious Anarchist Young Jews. In the most basic sense,

3230
03:01:16,120 --> 03:01:20,080
Speaker 9: we formed this as like a sort of response to

3231
03:01:21,320 --> 03:01:25,240
Speaker 9: like the Zionism that we were experiencing around us, and

3232
03:01:25,360 --> 03:01:27,480
Speaker 9: a lot of it, like the word rage being like

3233
03:01:27,560 --> 03:01:31,320
Speaker 9: anger of like wow, I can't believe, like this is

3234
03:01:31,320 --> 03:01:35,520
Speaker 9: what's being sold to us as like our liberation and

3235
03:01:35,640 --> 03:01:38,840
Speaker 9: what it formed into was like after the Tree of

3236
03:01:38,840 --> 03:01:42,560
Speaker 9: Life shooting my sibling pretty much text memes like let's

3237
03:01:42,640 --> 03:01:46,640
Speaker 9: make this thing happen again, and we started to create

3238
03:01:46,680 --> 03:01:49,520
Speaker 9: like more like political like Jewish anarchist like art and

3239
03:01:49,560 --> 03:01:54,640
Speaker 9: writing and putting it out on Facebook and people started

3240
03:01:54,640 --> 03:01:58,360
Speaker 9: responding to it, and it really felt like a piece

3241
03:01:58,480 --> 03:02:01,680
Speaker 9: of like the rising of like a Jewish anarchist movement

3242
03:02:02,200 --> 03:02:05,200
Speaker 9: in this country right now, a piece of many, but

3243
03:02:05,480 --> 03:02:13,000
Speaker 9: something that kind of was like a light or like

3244
03:02:13,400 --> 03:02:18,400
Speaker 9: what's the phrase, like like a bat signal is the

3245
03:02:18,440 --> 03:02:20,560
Speaker 9: only way I can put it of. Like, hey, like

3246
03:02:21,360 --> 03:02:23,840
Speaker 9: all of you out there who are thinking about like

3247
03:02:23,879 --> 03:02:27,080
Speaker 9: what Jewish anarchism might mean, are thinking about like what

3248
03:02:27,280 --> 03:02:32,400
Speaker 9: like organizing could look like when it's based on our

3249
03:02:32,440 --> 03:02:35,080
Speaker 9: culture and our practices and has like deep reverence for

3250
03:02:35,160 --> 03:02:41,080
Speaker 9: that instead of like an embarrassment around our practices. All

3251
03:02:41,080 --> 03:02:43,560
Speaker 9: of you who are like creative and artistic, and that's

3252
03:02:43,600 --> 03:02:47,480
Speaker 9: your mode of engagement of engaging, like we can come

3253
03:02:47,480 --> 03:02:51,240
Speaker 9: together and we can like create something new, and that

3254
03:02:51,320 --> 03:02:54,560
Speaker 9: has just like that desire has just grown since then

3255
03:02:55,000 --> 03:02:57,520
Speaker 9: and is being reflected and so much organizing right now.

3256
03:02:58,280 --> 03:03:01,280
Speaker 9: Enrage itself is like not we're not really doing as

3257
03:03:01,360 --> 03:03:04,640
Speaker 9: much as a collective anymore, but definitely that spirit is

3258
03:03:04,640 --> 03:03:07,280
Speaker 9: like living on in a lot of like in the

3259
03:03:07,280 --> 03:03:10,560
Speaker 9: book and writing, and like the work that my sibling's doing,

3260
03:03:10,680 --> 03:03:13,960
Speaker 9: and in a lot of like the artistic creation that's

3261
03:03:13,959 --> 03:03:15,640
Speaker 9: happening around Jewish anarchism.

3262
03:03:16,240 --> 03:03:20,880
Speaker 5: I love that. That's so cool. I'm really grateful that

3263
03:03:20,879 --> 03:03:24,280
Speaker 5: out of something so horrific that you went through, you

3264
03:03:24,320 --> 03:03:27,800
Speaker 5: were able to come together with your sibling and almost

3265
03:03:28,000 --> 03:03:30,360
Speaker 5: use that as fuel to really come together. I think

3266
03:03:30,400 --> 03:03:32,120
Speaker 5: it's really beautiful.

3267
03:03:32,480 --> 03:03:35,640
Speaker 9: Yeah, And I think that's like that felt like the

3268
03:03:35,720 --> 03:03:39,080
Speaker 9: challenge in that moment was like, are we gonna use

3269
03:03:39,120 --> 03:03:44,000
Speaker 9: this as a moment to support the police who you know,

3270
03:03:44,120 --> 03:03:47,320
Speaker 9: killed the shooter. We're going to use us a moment

3271
03:03:47,440 --> 03:03:50,200
Speaker 9: to like buddy up with the politicians who are trying

3272
03:03:50,320 --> 03:03:54,040
Speaker 9: to like befriend the Jewish community now all of a sudden.

3273
03:03:54,840 --> 03:03:56,520
Speaker 9: Or are we going to use as a moment, like

3274
03:03:56,680 --> 03:03:58,600
Speaker 9: a big phrase that was being thrown around in Pittsburgh

3275
03:03:58,640 --> 03:04:01,040
Speaker 9: was like safety and solidarity, or we're going to use

3276
03:04:01,040 --> 03:04:03,960
Speaker 9: as a moment to like really affirm that message and

3277
03:04:04,040 --> 03:04:07,360
Speaker 9: to really like speak to the danger that we are

3278
03:04:07,360 --> 03:04:10,840
Speaker 9: feeling as Jews in this country and the resilience that

3279
03:04:10,879 --> 03:04:13,440
Speaker 9: we have and the resistance and the revolutionary power we

3280
03:04:13,520 --> 03:04:19,879
Speaker 9: have to like sort of call out the systems that

3281
03:04:19,920 --> 03:04:24,840
Speaker 9: are creating that. And I'm really grateful, yeah that my

3282
03:04:24,959 --> 03:04:27,959
Speaker 9: sibling and others around me were able to like create

3283
03:04:28,000 --> 03:04:30,360
Speaker 9: that path through a more revolutionary mode.

3284
03:04:31,040 --> 03:04:35,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, oh it's important, especially, Yeah, you don't want to

3285
03:04:35,600 --> 03:04:39,280
Speaker 5: see your community use as a tool for politics. I

3286
03:04:39,280 --> 03:04:43,520
Speaker 5: think having that be a product of such a tragedy

3287
03:04:43,640 --> 03:04:47,560
Speaker 5: is shameful, and so fighting against that, I think is

3288
03:04:47,600 --> 03:04:51,840
Speaker 5: really necessary to maintain a sense of like reality, to

3289
03:04:51,879 --> 03:04:53,959
Speaker 5: be honest, like and not get caught up in like

3290
03:04:54,040 --> 03:05:00,280
Speaker 5: whatever reality I don't know, politicians or the media or

3291
03:05:00,280 --> 03:05:02,080
Speaker 5: whatever the ship wants you to believe in.

3292
03:05:02,520 --> 03:05:08,040
Speaker 9: Yeah. Yeah, So a few years after rage kind of

3293
03:05:08,200 --> 03:05:13,560
Speaker 9: continued to grow, I was able to found this community

3294
03:05:13,600 --> 03:05:18,080
Speaker 9: center called ret Zone Center for Healing and Resistance in Pittsburgh.

3295
03:05:18,920 --> 03:05:20,480
Speaker 5: And it's a.

3296
03:05:20,480 --> 03:05:24,680
Speaker 9: Queer Jewish anarchist community center. The only one, believe it

3297
03:05:24,720 --> 03:05:27,920
Speaker 9: or not, in the US maybe in the world.

3298
03:05:28,840 --> 03:05:30,720
Speaker 5: Also sad, do you know what I mean? Like I

3299
03:05:30,760 --> 03:05:33,840
Speaker 5: love it, I also have disappointed it.

3300
03:05:33,920 --> 03:05:38,080
Speaker 9: Yes, And it was like obviously a lot of community support,

3301
03:05:38,320 --> 03:05:41,280
Speaker 9: Like like i'd say, like I founded it, but it

3302
03:05:41,360 --> 03:05:46,119
Speaker 9: was more like I had the ability to like kind

3303
03:05:46,120 --> 03:05:49,560
Speaker 9: of pulled people together, pull together a space, get grant money,

3304
03:05:49,640 --> 03:05:50,760
Speaker 9: like do that type of work.

3305
03:05:52,640 --> 03:05:56,280
Speaker 5: And the idea is really like when we are like.

3306
03:05:59,000 --> 03:06:03,800
Speaker 9: In political struggle, we need to resist, but we also

3307
03:06:03,879 --> 03:06:06,560
Speaker 9: need to heal. And I think I was just also

3308
03:06:06,600 --> 03:06:09,400
Speaker 9: feeling like a lot and this was like in twenty

3309
03:06:10,879 --> 03:06:15,600
Speaker 9: nineteen ish, so the like integration of like healing and

3310
03:06:15,840 --> 03:06:20,280
Speaker 9: more like therapeutic techniques I felt like into like political

3311
03:06:20,879 --> 03:06:24,000
Speaker 9: frameworks like wasn't happening as much at the time as

3312
03:06:24,040 --> 03:06:27,520
Speaker 9: I think it is now even and just really claiming

3313
03:06:27,680 --> 03:06:31,880
Speaker 9: like we can't do political work without like our like

3314
03:06:31,920 --> 03:06:35,840
Speaker 9: healing work, and again like that creating a space where

3315
03:06:36,080 --> 03:06:38,920
Speaker 9: we could engage in like anti fascists organizing, we could

3316
03:06:38,959 --> 03:06:43,160
Speaker 9: engage in solidarity with other like marginalized people, and we

3317
03:06:43,160 --> 03:06:46,800
Speaker 9: could also really honor Jewish tradition and let that be

3318
03:06:46,879 --> 03:06:51,000
Speaker 9: like a foundation for us. And yeah, I ended up

3319
03:06:51,080 --> 03:06:54,800
Speaker 9: leaving the community this time last year to like pursue

3320
03:06:54,800 --> 03:06:57,760
Speaker 9: other things, But it still is existing in Pittsburgh and

3321
03:06:57,879 --> 03:07:03,560
Speaker 9: is still like very much like a hub for not

3322
03:07:03,600 --> 03:07:05,879
Speaker 9: just Jewish people too, but like a lot of people

3323
03:07:05,959 --> 03:07:09,560
Speaker 9: who are engaging in land and resistance work.

3324
03:07:10,520 --> 03:07:14,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's just I love that it exists and also

3325
03:07:14,840 --> 03:07:18,760
Speaker 5: just I was thinking, actually, I'm gonna hold that thought

3326
03:07:19,040 --> 03:07:20,800
Speaker 5: and I want to take our second break. Are you

3327
03:07:20,800 --> 03:07:22,520
Speaker 5: gonna have to to cut back and see what I

3328
03:07:22,560 --> 03:07:28,640
Speaker 5: was gonna say, So enjoy these ads. Okay, we're back.

3329
03:07:28,800 --> 03:07:30,680
Speaker 5: I had a coffee of it, and now I'm back.

3330
03:07:31,200 --> 03:07:34,600
Speaker 5: I was going to say that I love that all

3331
03:07:34,640 --> 03:07:36,440
Speaker 5: those things can be true at the same time, like

3332
03:07:36,560 --> 03:07:43,520
Speaker 5: Jewish solidarity and Palestinian solidarity, and remembering and practicing like

3333
03:07:43,560 --> 03:07:46,360
Speaker 5: traditional rituals and culture and traditions and practices and all

3334
03:07:46,360 --> 03:07:49,640
Speaker 5: this stuff. I think it's nice to remember that all

3335
03:07:49,680 --> 03:07:51,560
Speaker 5: of those can be true at the same time because

3336
03:07:51,600 --> 03:07:56,760
Speaker 5: I think, especially now, people identify anti Zionism with anti Semitism,

3337
03:07:57,360 --> 03:08:00,600
Speaker 5: and I think it's really important to see community of

3338
03:08:00,840 --> 03:08:04,440
Speaker 5: Jewish people like embracing their religion and culture and loving

3339
03:08:04,480 --> 03:08:08,760
Speaker 5: it and at the same time supporting Palestine, because it's

3340
03:08:08,800 --> 03:08:12,320
Speaker 5: just the clearest example of how Zionism is not a

3341
03:08:12,360 --> 03:08:18,640
Speaker 5: factor and your love of your culture and and your religion.

3342
03:08:18,680 --> 03:08:21,959
Speaker 5: I think it's a really good example of just I

3343
03:08:21,959 --> 03:08:25,280
Speaker 5: don't know, demonstrating how much of a falsity that is

3344
03:08:25,320 --> 03:08:28,119
Speaker 5: in the first place, to equate those two together when

3345
03:08:28,240 --> 03:08:31,680
Speaker 5: really Zionism itself is antismitic. As we mentioned in the

3346
03:08:31,760 --> 03:08:36,039
Speaker 5: last episode. I also want to give us plenty of

3347
03:08:36,080 --> 03:08:39,440
Speaker 5: time to talk about your work, and as much as

3348
03:08:39,480 --> 03:08:41,120
Speaker 5: you want to tell us about your new book, To

3349
03:08:41,160 --> 03:08:44,120
Speaker 5: the Ghosts Who Are Still Living, It's out and now

3350
03:08:44,160 --> 03:08:49,720
Speaker 5: everybody go get it. It's a book of essays and yeah,

3351
03:08:49,840 --> 03:08:54,560
Speaker 5: can you if you want to tell me how you

3352
03:08:54,600 --> 03:08:56,879
Speaker 5: came about even starting to write these essays and like

3353
03:08:56,920 --> 03:09:00,840
Speaker 5: what motivated you to embark on this journey?

3354
03:09:01,560 --> 03:09:01,720
Speaker 8: Yees.

3355
03:09:01,760 --> 03:09:04,920
Speaker 9: So I just came out today with this book To

3356
03:09:04,959 --> 03:09:07,400
Speaker 9: the ghost to Us Still Living, and it's my first

3357
03:09:07,400 --> 03:09:10,920
Speaker 9: book that I've read, and it's pretty much a collection

3358
03:09:11,000 --> 03:09:14,640
Speaker 9: of essays that is broken up into three sections. The

3359
03:09:14,640 --> 03:09:17,680
Speaker 9: first section is like stories of my ancestors in Eastern

3360
03:09:17,680 --> 03:09:22,440
Speaker 9: Europe and their lives and them coming to America and

3361
03:09:22,480 --> 03:09:26,920
Speaker 9: like that process. The second section is my stories of

3362
03:09:27,080 --> 03:09:30,360
Speaker 9: living in Pittsburgh during the rise of antisepitism. And the

3363
03:09:30,360 --> 03:09:35,160
Speaker 9: third section is returning back to my ancestors Shuttle, which

3364
03:09:35,640 --> 03:09:39,440
Speaker 9: the village in Lithuania last summer with my sister and

3365
03:09:39,560 --> 03:09:42,680
Speaker 9: kind of yeah, grappling with these questions of like do

3366
03:09:42,800 --> 03:09:47,800
Speaker 9: I belong here? Like what is this land? Where am

3367
03:09:47,840 --> 03:09:49,880
Speaker 9: I from? Like where do I where can I be

3368
03:09:49,959 --> 03:09:54,040
Speaker 9: in the world. So I guess like the clearest moment

3369
03:09:54,040 --> 03:09:56,240
Speaker 9: of when I felt like I needed to write this

3370
03:09:56,600 --> 03:10:00,760
Speaker 9: was during the summer of twenty twenty, and there was

3371
03:10:01,560 --> 03:10:03,480
Speaker 9: an incident that I write about in the book of

3372
03:10:04,400 --> 03:10:08,120
Speaker 9: Nazis coming to like the anarchist bookstore in Pittsburgh, which

3373
03:10:08,160 --> 03:10:09,920
Speaker 9: was like a few blocks from my house at the time,

3374
03:10:10,840 --> 03:10:14,800
Speaker 9: and they were I don't even remember like exactly what

3375
03:10:14,840 --> 03:10:17,040
Speaker 9: their posters said, but they were handing out these like

3376
03:10:18,680 --> 03:10:23,720
Speaker 9: anti anarchists posters that like probably had something anti Semitic

3377
03:10:23,800 --> 03:10:26,240
Speaker 9: on them also or just like that vibe was there

3378
03:10:26,720 --> 03:10:30,360
Speaker 9: and they were just flying, and the cops came up

3379
03:10:30,520 --> 03:10:34,920
Speaker 9: and shook hands with these Nazis and let them stay.

3380
03:10:35,360 --> 03:10:39,360
Speaker 5: Wow and but sail out exactly.

3381
03:10:40,200 --> 03:10:42,640
Speaker 9: And then the Nazis actually ended up pulling a gun

3382
03:10:42,800 --> 03:10:45,800
Speaker 9: on some of the anti fascist protesters who were there

3383
03:10:46,480 --> 03:10:49,959
Speaker 9: and didn't actually end up like shooting anyone.

3384
03:10:49,640 --> 03:10:49,800
Speaker 8: But.

3385
03:10:51,600 --> 03:10:53,000
Speaker 9: That was the scene of what had happened.

3386
03:10:53,600 --> 03:10:56,280
Speaker 5: But still the fact that that he whoever that was,

3387
03:10:56,280 --> 03:10:58,959
Speaker 5: was able to do that in the cops, any buddy,

3388
03:10:59,800 --> 03:11:02,480
Speaker 5: yeah exactly, just to make it more clear how shit

3389
03:11:02,920 --> 03:11:05,080
Speaker 5: the cops are totally.

3390
03:11:06,120 --> 03:11:08,560
Speaker 9: And so yeah, I just witnessed that all happen, and

3391
03:11:09,360 --> 03:11:15,440
Speaker 9: it just kind of felt like the last the last straw,

3392
03:11:15,560 --> 03:11:16,800
Speaker 9: I guess, the last thing.

3393
03:11:17,680 --> 03:11:18,600
Speaker 5: And I just felt like.

3394
03:11:20,120 --> 03:11:25,400
Speaker 9: Kind of ripped open inside realizing that the anti Semitism

3395
03:11:25,440 --> 03:11:29,040
Speaker 9: that I had been researching, like in my own family's

3396
03:11:29,200 --> 03:11:32,520
Speaker 9: history was like happening right now, like to me in

3397
03:11:32,560 --> 03:11:35,720
Speaker 9: this moment, and I just had this feeling that like

3398
03:11:35,800 --> 03:11:39,200
Speaker 9: I was like, I don't know if people on the

3399
03:11:39,320 --> 03:11:42,280
Speaker 9: left or people in general are like really seeing what's happening,

3400
03:11:42,959 --> 03:11:46,520
Speaker 9: you know, really like understanding like the fear that I have,

3401
03:11:46,920 --> 03:11:50,039
Speaker 9: like as a Jewish person right now, and I'm not

3402
03:11:50,080 --> 03:11:54,520
Speaker 9: sure if people are like understanding that connection to like

3403
03:11:54,560 --> 03:11:57,760
Speaker 9: the contemporary fascism that's happening in the US, to the

3404
03:11:57,800 --> 03:12:03,520
Speaker 9: fascism that my ancestors experienced. And it made me really sad,

3405
03:12:03,560 --> 03:12:06,040
Speaker 9: and it made me like really feel so much pain

3406
03:12:07,040 --> 03:12:09,880
Speaker 9: because I just didn't want my family stories to be

3407
03:12:10,400 --> 03:12:12,920
Speaker 9: like forgotten or not to be remembered in this moment

3408
03:12:12,959 --> 03:12:16,000
Speaker 9: when I think we're trying to understand what's happening in

3409
03:12:16,040 --> 03:12:20,120
Speaker 9: this country, and like my family has already gone through

3410
03:12:20,160 --> 03:12:23,440
Speaker 9: a lot of what's happened, you know, yeah, yeah, And

3411
03:12:23,480 --> 03:12:25,600
Speaker 9: we're being attacked now in that way.

3412
03:12:26,920 --> 03:12:29,560
Speaker 5: I mean, as far as our history books go, an

3413
03:12:29,640 --> 03:12:33,000
Speaker 5: dis Semitism ended when all of us ended, right exactly,

3414
03:12:33,360 --> 03:12:34,920
Speaker 5: so in the US, like saved the day.

3415
03:12:34,800 --> 03:12:35,199
Speaker 7: Yeah.

3416
03:12:36,920 --> 03:12:39,520
Speaker 5: Exactly. I think that's literally the narrative that a lot

3417
03:12:39,560 --> 03:12:42,040
Speaker 5: of people believe in this in this country, which is

3418
03:12:42,120 --> 03:12:47,160
Speaker 5: so unfortunate because it just, yeah, it's so what incidents

3419
03:12:47,160 --> 03:12:49,560
Speaker 5: like this happen. It's not just like out of the blue.

3420
03:12:49,959 --> 03:12:55,480
Speaker 5: It's because there's this lingering hatred and fascism that's been

3421
03:12:55,520 --> 03:13:00,240
Speaker 5: there and just growing and evolving and going undetected. Even

3422
03:13:00,240 --> 03:13:04,119
Speaker 5: though it's so obvious, it's just become I don't know,

3423
03:13:04,200 --> 03:13:06,320
Speaker 5: maybe I was gonna say more subtle, but at this

3424
03:13:06,360 --> 03:13:09,360
Speaker 5: point it's not subtle at all. They're very outright about it.

3425
03:13:09,920 --> 03:13:12,320
Speaker 9: But I think it's like almost become like normalized, just

3426
03:13:12,360 --> 03:13:13,720
Speaker 9: exactly exactly.

3427
03:13:16,240 --> 03:13:19,800
Speaker 5: But no, I thank you for sharing that, uh, And

3428
03:13:20,920 --> 03:13:25,000
Speaker 5: I I mean I can imagine that potentially this book

3429
03:13:25,120 --> 03:13:28,440
Speaker 5: was like maybe healthy process or like heal a little

3430
03:13:28,480 --> 03:13:30,960
Speaker 5: bit yourself. Did that happened definitely?

3431
03:13:31,040 --> 03:13:33,800
Speaker 9: Yeah, Like at a certain point I was writing these

3432
03:13:33,879 --> 03:13:37,400
Speaker 9: essays and I was like, I don't even need to

3433
03:13:37,400 --> 03:13:39,240
Speaker 9: do anything with this, Like this has been like the

3434
03:13:39,280 --> 03:13:43,920
Speaker 9: most healing project that I've already done, and so like

3435
03:13:43,959 --> 03:13:46,720
Speaker 9: also my hope with this book is that the healing

3436
03:13:46,720 --> 03:13:49,520
Speaker 9: that it's offered me like perhaps it can offer to others.

3437
03:13:49,760 --> 03:13:51,760
Speaker 9: And I've kind of been thinking of it as like

3438
03:13:53,520 --> 03:13:56,160
Speaker 9: in Jewish myth, there's like this idea of like a

3439
03:13:56,200 --> 03:14:01,520
Speaker 9: golum or a gollum that's like this monster created from

3440
03:14:01,520 --> 03:14:05,200
Speaker 9: the mud with like the word Emmett written on its forehead,

3441
03:14:05,760 --> 03:14:09,400
Speaker 9: which means truth, and this monster is like raised from

3442
03:14:09,440 --> 03:14:12,920
Speaker 9: the mud to protect the Jewish community of Prague against

3443
03:14:12,959 --> 03:14:13,840
Speaker 9: anti Semitism.

3444
03:14:14,959 --> 03:14:18,440
Speaker 5: WHOA, yeah, it's a really cool story.

3445
03:14:17,720 --> 03:14:18,840
Speaker 8: Cool cool.

3446
03:14:19,480 --> 03:14:20,039
Speaker 5: Yeah.

3447
03:14:20,240 --> 03:14:22,720
Speaker 9: So I've kind of been like, oh, I wonder if

3448
03:14:22,760 --> 03:14:24,720
Speaker 9: like this book can I kind of be like a gollum,

3449
03:14:25,040 --> 03:14:31,240
Speaker 9: you know, like this kind of anti fascists monster mud

3450
03:14:31,600 --> 03:14:35,440
Speaker 9: creature made from words that can like offer healing and

3451
03:14:35,480 --> 03:14:42,680
Speaker 9: maybe offer some like protection in this moment. So that's

3452
03:14:42,680 --> 03:14:44,720
Speaker 9: that's my greatest hope for this book right now.

3453
03:14:46,200 --> 03:14:51,600
Speaker 5: That's first of all, sick about the monster. I love that,

3454
03:14:51,959 --> 03:14:54,720
Speaker 5: Love that for you, and love that for me everybody.

3455
03:14:57,160 --> 03:14:59,600
Speaker 5: It's second, I think that's a beautiful intent and I

3456
03:14:59,600 --> 03:15:03,960
Speaker 5: think it one hundred percent will help others heal. And

3457
03:15:04,040 --> 03:15:07,000
Speaker 5: even if the person reading it is not Jewish, I

3458
03:15:07,040 --> 03:15:11,640
Speaker 5: think it's important to remember and to realize that you

3459
03:15:11,760 --> 03:15:15,840
Speaker 5: still have very real fear being a Jewish person living

3460
03:15:16,080 --> 03:15:20,400
Speaker 5: in America or anywhere else, you know, because anti Semitism.

3461
03:15:20,400 --> 03:15:23,840
Speaker 5: Did it get solved when Hitler shot himself? If I'm sorry, guys,

3462
03:15:24,480 --> 03:15:27,119
Speaker 5: and so I think this book can help a lot

3463
03:15:27,160 --> 03:15:30,000
Speaker 5: of people, and I really encourage everyone to go buy

3464
03:15:30,040 --> 03:15:33,320
Speaker 5: it now. We're recording today on August first, and today

3465
03:15:33,360 --> 03:15:35,360
Speaker 5: is when it was released, so by the time you

3466
03:15:35,440 --> 03:15:39,440
Speaker 5: hear it, it'll be out and ready to be read.

3467
03:15:40,240 --> 03:15:44,320
Speaker 5: I just highly encourage you to really dive into Omni's

3468
03:15:44,360 --> 03:15:49,160
Speaker 5: work because it's just so important and so healing for everybody.

3469
03:15:49,320 --> 03:15:53,840
Speaker 5: Thank you, of course, I really appreciate you taking the

3470
03:15:53,920 --> 03:15:57,640
Speaker 5: time to open yourself up and because I know a

3471
03:15:57,640 --> 03:16:00,600
Speaker 5: lot of these things have really painful origins and appreciate

3472
03:16:00,640 --> 03:16:02,519
Speaker 5: that you're willing to talk about them.

3473
03:16:02,959 --> 03:16:07,560
Speaker 9: Yeah, thank you. Yeah. And I also hope that like, yeah,

3474
03:16:07,640 --> 03:16:11,280
Speaker 9: like this book also can sort of be like a

3475
03:16:11,320 --> 03:16:15,520
Speaker 9: window for like leftists who want to like integrate more

3476
03:16:15,560 --> 03:16:18,760
Speaker 9: like Jewish history into their anti fascism, that it can

3477
03:16:18,800 --> 03:16:22,000
Speaker 9: be like a window for that, and I do hope

3478
03:16:22,040 --> 03:16:25,640
Speaker 9: like also that it can like also build bridges with

3479
03:16:25,640 --> 03:16:31,080
Speaker 9: like other peoples who have experienced genocide, experience displacement from lands,

3480
03:16:31,120 --> 03:16:35,280
Speaker 9: experienced like experience ongoing like fear for their safety where

3481
03:16:35,280 --> 03:16:38,680
Speaker 9: they are in the world. And I hope it also

3482
03:16:38,800 --> 03:16:42,960
Speaker 9: like sharing like my family stories that like those bridges

3483
03:16:42,959 --> 03:16:47,560
Speaker 9: can start to like be built and we can start

3484
03:16:47,600 --> 03:16:50,720
Speaker 9: to create more community around that shared history as well.

3485
03:16:51,440 --> 03:16:56,840
Speaker 5: To really build strong allyship with the Jewish community. Actually

3486
03:16:56,959 --> 03:17:00,400
Speaker 5: understanding what that means and actually understanding what the Jewish

3487
03:17:00,400 --> 03:17:02,960
Speaker 5: community is going through and the fears they have. I

3488
03:17:02,959 --> 03:17:08,119
Speaker 5: think that is where you have to start. So so yeah,

3489
03:17:08,440 --> 03:17:11,879
Speaker 5: I just I'm so glad to have had this conversation

3490
03:17:12,320 --> 03:17:14,520
Speaker 5: and I know people will benefit from it, and I

3491
03:17:14,520 --> 03:17:19,879
Speaker 5: one percent no people will benefit from your book again,

3492
03:17:20,520 --> 03:17:24,320
Speaker 5: that is to the ghosts who are still living. You

3493
03:17:24,320 --> 03:17:26,359
Speaker 5: can buy it now through your publisher, which.

3494
03:17:26,160 --> 03:17:29,360
Speaker 9: Is Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness.

3495
03:17:30,520 --> 03:17:34,000
Speaker 5: Nice, and I'll put all the links in the description

3496
03:17:34,080 --> 03:17:37,039
Speaker 5: of the episodes on these website and all the good stuff.

3497
03:17:37,640 --> 03:17:41,120
Speaker 5: But yeah, thank you again for joining me today. I'm

3498
03:17:41,120 --> 03:17:43,160
Speaker 5: gonna probably drag you back at some point just to

3499
03:17:43,200 --> 03:17:45,039
Speaker 5: continue talking to you because You've been lovely.

3500
03:17:46,120 --> 03:17:46,360
Speaker 8: Thank you.

3501
03:17:46,520 --> 03:17:47,879
Speaker 9: Yeah, I'm happy to be back on.

3502
03:17:48,120 --> 03:17:50,440
Speaker 5: Hell yeah I did a good job. If you said that,

3503
03:17:51,400 --> 03:17:54,480
Speaker 5: I'm kidding. Do you have any kind of social media

3504
03:17:54,520 --> 03:17:56,760
Speaker 5: you want people to follow you at or just the book?

3505
03:17:57,600 --> 03:17:57,920
Speaker 5: I do?

3506
03:17:58,000 --> 03:18:04,200
Speaker 9: Yes, let me. I'm really bad at social media. I'm

3507
03:18:04,400 --> 03:18:07,959
Speaker 9: trying to be better. Okay, you can also follow me

3508
03:18:08,160 --> 03:18:14,120
Speaker 9: on Instagram, Ammy Wintraub three. That's a M I W

3509
03:18:14,560 --> 03:18:16,880
Speaker 9: E I N T R A U B and the

3510
03:18:16,959 --> 03:18:20,600
Speaker 9: number three. And I'm, like I said, like the work

3511
03:18:20,600 --> 03:18:25,000
Speaker 9: I'm doing, I hope is like conversation starters, is like

3512
03:18:25,080 --> 03:18:27,879
Speaker 9: ways to build connections. So also this was interesting to you.

3513
03:18:28,800 --> 03:18:32,200
Speaker 9: Feel free to like reach out and say hey and yeah,

3514
03:18:32,240 --> 03:18:34,080
Speaker 9: and my voice is just like one of many on

3515
03:18:34,120 --> 03:18:37,240
Speaker 9: this topic. And I hope that, yeah, people continue to

3516
03:18:37,800 --> 03:18:42,000
Speaker 9: study and learn and explore the nuances of of what

3517
03:18:42,000 --> 03:18:43,360
Speaker 9: I've shared today.

3518
03:18:43,520 --> 03:18:47,120
Speaker 5: Thank you And a big reason why I wanted to

3519
03:18:47,240 --> 03:18:51,680
Speaker 5: have these conversations and have them as conversations. Stillso illustrate

3520
03:18:51,760 --> 03:18:55,400
Speaker 5: that it's possible to talk about these these like Zion

3521
03:18:55,440 --> 03:18:58,040
Speaker 5: is a particular which is this very taboo almost like

3522
03:18:58,120 --> 03:19:00,400
Speaker 5: weird word to say out loud. Just a lot of people.

3523
03:19:01,040 --> 03:19:03,640
Speaker 5: It's really helpful to talk about it casually and openly,

3524
03:19:03,920 --> 03:19:05,879
Speaker 5: because that's how we're going to understand it. That's how

3525
03:19:05,920 --> 03:19:09,680
Speaker 5: we're going to understand the anti Zionism and why Zionism

3526
03:19:09,760 --> 03:19:12,080
Speaker 5: isn't great right now and all this other stuff. So

3527
03:19:12,720 --> 03:19:17,720
Speaker 5: I hope that someone took that away and we'll continue

3528
03:19:17,720 --> 03:19:21,039
Speaker 5: to have these conversations in their personal lives, because this

3529
03:19:21,160 --> 03:19:24,800
Speaker 5: is just a fucking podcast, you know, but real life

3530
03:19:24,840 --> 03:19:28,520
Speaker 5: is what matters. So yeah, that's all I have to say.

3531
03:19:30,040 --> 03:19:33,720
Speaker 5: Thank you again, you are the best, and go buy

3532
03:19:33,720 --> 03:19:36,200
Speaker 5: AMI's book to the Ghost Source to Living Go buy

3533
03:19:36,200 --> 03:19:36,960
Speaker 5: it now.

3534
03:19:40,240 --> 03:19:43,400
Speaker 1: Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

3535
03:19:43,480 --> 03:19:45,359
Speaker 1: from now until the heat death of the Universe.

3536
03:19:45,959 --> 03:19:48,480
Speaker 5: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.

3537
03:19:48,560 --> 03:19:51,240
Speaker 9: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3538
03:19:51,240 --> 03:19:54,360
Speaker 9: Coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

3539
03:19:54,400 --> 03:19:57,039
Speaker 9: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

3540
03:19:57,320 --> 03:19:59,440
Speaker 5: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated

3541
03:19:59,520 --> 03:20:02,560
Speaker 5: monthly at Coolzonmedia dot com slash sources.

3542
03:20:02,720 --> 03:20:03,840
Speaker 9: Thanks for listening.