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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brussel from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: Less than two weeks after the mass shooting in San Jose,

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Speaker 1: a federal judge overturned California's longtime ban on assault weapons.

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Speaker 1: Condemnation of the decision was swift from the governor to

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Speaker 1: the Mayor of San Jose, Sam Locardo. It's hard to

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Speaker 1: escape the conclusion that a nation with more than three

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Speaker 1: million guns, uh, the solution is not more guns. The

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Speaker 1: language used by Judge Roger Benitez comparing an a R

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Speaker 1: fifteen rifle to a Swiss army knife quote good for

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Speaker 1: both home and battle, drew outrage from gun safety advocates

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Speaker 1: and victims of gun violence. Chris Brown is the president

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Speaker 1: of Brady United Against Gun Violence. It's so shocking to

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Speaker 1: have this judge say that is like a Swiss army knife.

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Speaker 1: A Swiss army knife doesn't kill hundreds of people within

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Speaker 1: ten seconds. That's what this weapon does. Joining me his

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Speaker 1: Second Amendment expert Adam Winkler, a professor at u c

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Speaker 1: l A Law School, Adam explain the ruling for US well.

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Speaker 1: The ruling in Miller versus Banta held that California's restriction

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Speaker 1: on military style assault weapons was unconstitutional under the Second Amendment.

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Speaker 1: The judge compared the a R fifteen rifle to the

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Speaker 1: Swiss army knife, good for both home and battle. What's

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Speaker 1: behind this comparison, Well, perhaps the most surprising thing about

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Speaker 1: the opinion was the judge's equating of a military style

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Speaker 1: assault rifle to a Swiss army knife. Of course, a

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Speaker 1: military style assault rifle is far more dangerous than a

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Speaker 1: Swiss army knife. But the point that the judge is

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Speaker 1: making is that like a Swiss army knife, many people

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Speaker 1: will have this kind of device and it's perfectly lawful,

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Speaker 1: and they don't do anything wrong with it. And indeed

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Speaker 1: he makes the point in the opinion that knives kill

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Speaker 1: more people in California than assault rifles every year. The

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Speaker 1: way he wrote the decision, do you think it was

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Speaker 1: designed to shock? I don't know if it was designed

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Speaker 1: to shock, but it's certainly designed to get the attention

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Speaker 1: of the courts of appeals. And the judge was very

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Speaker 1: careful to detail what was the basis of his ruling,

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Speaker 1: What are the facts that he accepted, Who are the

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Speaker 1: witnesses and experts that he found most persuasive and what

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Speaker 1: was the data that he thought was most influential and

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Speaker 1: that will impart influence the Court of Appeals when they

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Speaker 1: hear this appeal in this case, because they'll be limited

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Speaker 1: in some ways by the facts as the lower court

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Speaker 1: found them. What was the state's argument, Well, the state

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Speaker 1: argued that these military style assault weapons are not constitutionally

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Speaker 1: protected by the Second Amendment, that they're not commonly used

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Speaker 1: for self defense, and that they have special dangers kind

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Speaker 1: of like a machine gun even though they're not machine guns,

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Speaker 1: but like a machine gun in that they present special,

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Speaker 1: unusual dangers in a five our arms. But the judge

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Speaker 1: rejected those arguments, finding that military style of rifles were

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Speaker 1: really no different from other types of rifles, and that

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Speaker 1: prohibiting access to these weapons, which are not associated with

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Speaker 1: a lot of criminal misuse or criminal violence relative to

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Speaker 1: other firearms, was unconstitutional. As I've said before, I don't

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Speaker 1: know much about guns, but isn't this the style of

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Speaker 1: gun that's been used in mass shootings? This style of

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Speaker 1: gun has been used in many high profile mass shootings,

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Speaker 1: which is partly why the gun safety movement has been

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Speaker 1: trying to ban these weapons. However, it is important to

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Speaker 1: recognize that in more than half of mass shootings people

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Speaker 1: use handguns, and it's not clear that the use of

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Speaker 1: military style assault rifle really is going to change mass shooting.

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Speaker 1: You can do the same kind of damage in the

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Speaker 1: kind of close rain confines of most mass shootings with

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Speaker 1: a handgun or other type of rifle. Similar assault weapons

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Speaker 1: bands have they been upheld by other federal district courts

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Speaker 1: or appellate courts. We have seen other states bands on

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Speaker 1: military style assault rifles be subject to judicial review. Most

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Speaker 1: courts have upheld those laws, finding that while these military

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Speaker 1: style weapons are in common use and thus probably protected

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Speaker 1: by the Second Amendment, at least at first glance, the

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Speaker 1: courts have generally said that the government has sufficiently strong

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Speaker 1: reasons to limit access to these weapons because of their

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Speaker 1: special dangers. Judge Benitez, however, in California, did not buy

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Speaker 1: into the argument that these firearms posed special dangers, and

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Speaker 1: that's why he compared them to Swiss army knights. And

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Speaker 1: it's a minority of states that have these assault weapons bands,

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Speaker 1: that's right. There's only a handful of the fifty states

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Speaker 1: have these military style assault rifle bands. There have been

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Speaker 1: efforts to ban them at the federal level, include including

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Speaker 1: a ten year period in which they were banned at

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Speaker 1: the federal level. But gun safety advocates have not been

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Speaker 1: able to get the these laws adopted in other states,

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Speaker 1: and I think no matter how many states adopt them,

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Speaker 1: these laws are likely to run into some hostile treatment

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Speaker 1: when this issue gets to the United States Supreme Court.

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Speaker 1: And some of the talk after this opinion has been, well,

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Speaker 1: gun rights advocates are becoming emboldened by the federal judiciary

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Speaker 1: that's become more conservative and the Supreme Court that's become

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Speaker 1: more conservative. Well, there's no doubt about that that the

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Speaker 1: Court has become more conservative. The federal courts generally have

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Speaker 1: become more conservative. In fact, Judge Benitez, who's got kind

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Speaker 1: of a long history of striking down California gun regulations,

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Speaker 1: has often been overturned on appeal in the Ninth Circuit,

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Speaker 1: but recently he's had some of his opinions upheld on appeal,

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Speaker 1: in part because the Ninth Circuit has become more conservative.

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Speaker 1: But I do think that the appointment of three justices

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Speaker 1: to the Supreme Court by President Trump, all of whom

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Speaker 1: have strong pro gun records, suggests that restrictions on military

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Speaker 1: style assault rifles are likely to run a foul of

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Speaker 1: the new Supreme Court. The state says it will appeal

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Speaker 1: benitez Is ruling to the Ninth Circuit. The state is

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Speaker 1: also appealing the judges seventeen ruling against the states nearly

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Speaker 1: two decade old ban on the sales and purchases of

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Speaker 1: magazines including more than ten bullets. That decision was upheld

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Speaker 1: in August by a three judge panel, but the Ninth

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Speaker 1: Circuits set in March that an eleven member panel will

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Speaker 1: rehear the case. The state is also appealing benita as

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Speaker 1: a decision in April of blocking a team California law

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Speaker 1: for acquiring background checks for anyone buying ammunition. So Adam

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Speaker 1: explain why all these gun cases came before this same judge. Well,

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Speaker 1: gun rights groups have done some forum shopping and have

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Speaker 1: been pursuing litigation in Judge Benitez's court. They've been trying

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Speaker 1: to get Judge Benitez to be the one who rules

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Speaker 1: on their cases. It's a smart strategy for litigation because

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Speaker 1: they know that the district court, the trial court, will

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Speaker 1: control the interpretation of the facts on the ground credibility

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Speaker 1: of witnesses, what evidence is appropriate and probative um, and

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Speaker 1: the courts of Appeals are often limited in their ability

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Speaker 1: to really control the record of a lawsuit. So UH

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Speaker 1: that this is part of a concerted effort by California

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Speaker 1: gun rights groups and UH, so far it's looking to

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Speaker 1: prove pretty successful when it reaches the Ninth Circuit. I

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Speaker 1: know that one of his rulings was upheld on appeal

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Speaker 1: by a three judge panel and it's going to the

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Speaker 1: full circuit. So when this reaches the Ninth Circuit, what

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Speaker 1: are the chances now that the circuit has changed a

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Speaker 1: bit after President Trump's appointees. Well, it's very hard to

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Speaker 1: predict what's going to come out of the Ninth Circuit.

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Speaker 1: It used to be that the Ninth Circuit was a

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Speaker 1: very reliable progressive or liberal circuit where on issues like guns,

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Speaker 1: you could count on the Court of Appeals to overturn

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Speaker 1: a decision like the one we had from Judge Benitez

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Speaker 1: on assault weapons. But because of the Trump appointees on

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Speaker 1: the Ninth Circuit, it's a much more balanced bench than

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Speaker 1: it once was, and you never know who's going to

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Speaker 1: be appointed either for the three judge panel that will

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Speaker 1: hear the appeal or even the eleven member on bomb

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Speaker 1: panel that might hear an appeal or re hearing of

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Speaker 1: whatever that three judge panel decides. It used to be

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Speaker 1: that they were reliably liberal, but now it's a much

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Speaker 1: more balanced bench. Our gun rights food is becoming bolder

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Speaker 1: in court because of the more conservative federal judiciary. I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure that gun rights advocates have become more bold

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Speaker 1: in their lawsuits in the federal courts. Truth be told,

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Speaker 1: for the last fifteen years, they've really been aggressively pursuing

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Speaker 1: litigation to challenge gun control laws. Really ever since the

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Speaker 1: Heller decision back in two thousand and eight. The difference

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Speaker 1: is is now gun rights advocates are more hopeful than

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Speaker 1: ever that they'll win in those court cases because the

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Speaker 1: courts have become more conservative, and the Supreme Court in particular,

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Speaker 1: has new members that seem likely to strike down gun

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Speaker 1: control laws in favor of a broad and expansive reading

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Speaker 1: of the Second Amount. Tell us about the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 1: It's going to issue its first major decision on Second

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Speaker 1: Amendment in two decades next term. Tell us what's before

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Speaker 1: the court. The Supreme Court has agreed to hear a

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Speaker 1: challenge out of New York where it is impermissible to

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Speaker 1: carry a concealed weapon unless you get a permit, and

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Speaker 1: it's very, very difficult to get a permit. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: this kind of discretionary permitting policy that New York and

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Speaker 1: about ten other states used UM is going to go

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Speaker 1: to the Supreme Court and the Court's going to deside

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Speaker 1: whether you have a right to carry a gun outside

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Speaker 1: the home, and if so, well what kind of permitting

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Speaker 1: process can states impose before you are allowed to carry

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Speaker 1: that firearm? And the composition of the court has changed,

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Speaker 1: as you mentioned, is that the reason why they're finally

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Speaker 1: taking up a GUD rights case like this. There is

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Speaker 1: no doubt that the changes in the Supreme Court explain

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Speaker 1: why the Court has taken Second Amendment cases both last

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Speaker 1: term and this term. The last term, the Court took

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Speaker 1: a second Amendment case, but it turned out to be

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Speaker 1: moot and so they didn't ultimately issue a ruling um.

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Speaker 1: But there's no doubt that the addition of new justices

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Speaker 1: has changed calculus on the Supreme Court UM, with Justices Thomas, Alito, Gorsich,

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Speaker 1: and Kavanaugh all saying that it's time for the Court

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Speaker 1: to take more Second Amendment cases and to put more

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Speaker 1: teeth into the Second Amendment. Now with the addition of

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Speaker 1: Justice Sparret, it seems like that group of justices finally

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Speaker 1: has their majority. Has that ruled on Second Amendment cases? Yes,

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Speaker 1: Justice Sparret, when she was a lower court judge, issued

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Speaker 1: of very controversial ruling where she was actually the dissenting

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Speaker 1: judge of the court upheld a ban on felons possessing firearms.

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Speaker 1: And Justice Barrett when a lower court judge dissented from

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Speaker 1: that ruling, arguing that the lifetime ban on felon's possessing

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Speaker 1: firearms was overbroad and should be restricted and limited. And

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Speaker 1: do you see any progress being made for legislation on

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Speaker 1: gun control? The prospects for gun control at the federal

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Speaker 1: level do not seem good. It doesn't seem like any

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Speaker 1: proposal for gun regulation would surmount the sixty vote hurdle

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Speaker 1: that you need to pass legislation through the Senate. So

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Speaker 1: so long as the filibuster remains in place, I think

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Speaker 1: the possibility of significant federal gun safety regulation is unlikely.

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Speaker 1: And what can President Biden do through executive order? How

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Speaker 1: much can you do through executive order? Biden can do

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Speaker 1: some things by executive order, but much right so. Executive

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Speaker 1: orders give the president the ability to um carve out

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Speaker 1: an interpretation of existing federal statutes. But the n r

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Speaker 1: A has written America's gun laws very carefully to restrict

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Speaker 1: the ability of the president um to find that kind

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Speaker 1: of wiggle room. He's going to make some efforts, for instance,

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Speaker 1: to crack down on ghost guns. These are guns that

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Speaker 1: are homemade that don't have serial numbers. And he might

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Speaker 1: be able to do some things on restricting importation of

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Speaker 1: military style assault weapons, but many of them are manufactured

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Speaker 1: domestically and a ban on imports won't have a significant

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Speaker 1: impact on the gun debate in America. The n r

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Speaker 1: A has has a lot of different problems and is

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Speaker 1: facing lawsuits. Does that have any effect on the gun lobby?

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Speaker 1: The n r A has never been weaker than it

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Speaker 1: is right now. It's facing a real existential crisis. The

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Speaker 1: New York Attorney General is probably trying to put the

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Speaker 1: n r A out of business, uh and so far

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Speaker 1: looks like the Attorney General is doing a pretty good

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Speaker 1: job of it, and the n r A is uh

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Speaker 1: not mounting a very vigorous defense that's persuasive. There does

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Speaker 1: seem to be a long history of mismanagement of the

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Speaker 1: n r A and some corruption inside. However, that's not

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Speaker 1: going to affect the gun debate that much. Gun rights

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Speaker 1: have never been stronger in America. The Republican Party is

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Speaker 1: dead set against any new gun control laws. There's a

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Speaker 1: strong new conservative majority on the Supreme Court that seems

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Speaker 1: ready to expand gun rights, and so the n r

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Speaker 1: A is facing untold challenges. But the gun rights movement

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Speaker 1: remains very strong in America. Thanks Adam. That's Professor Adam

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Speaker 1: Winkler of u c. L A Law School. This is

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. The Supreme

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Speaker 1: Coourt is ruled that the government can block immigrants with

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Speaker 1: temporary protected status from applying for green cards if they

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Speaker 1: enter the country unlawfully. It was the unanimous decision by

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Speaker 1: the Court, the third such decision on immigration matters in

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Speaker 1: as many weeks. Joining me is immigration expert Leon Fresco,

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Speaker 1: a partnered Hollandon Knight. Leon explained what TPS is and

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Speaker 1: the facts in the case. Temporary protective status is the

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Speaker 1: status that the federal government has because the Congress conferreted

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Speaker 1: onto the President many decades ago as part of the

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Speaker 1: Immigration and Nationality Act. And what that status says is

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Speaker 1: during times of very major difficulty in a country, such

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Speaker 1: as a natural disaster or dangerous condition of a military conflict,

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Speaker 1: or even a pandemic which is necessary for COVID, that

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Speaker 1: the government can actually confer something called temporary protective status.

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Speaker 1: Let's say, until whatever a crisis is happening in your

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Speaker 1: country is over, you can stay here without being deported,

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Speaker 1: and you can work here. The crisis are created in

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Speaker 1: this case is because many people who've had temporary protective

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Speaker 1: status have had for twenty or thirty years because the

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Speaker 1: government searched to feel bad. It never ends the temporary

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Speaker 1: license that says, oh, people have had children, they've had

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Speaker 1: roots in the United States. Now those children are American citizens.

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Speaker 1: Don't make them go home. People have this luck status

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Speaker 1: for neck came such as a man in this case

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Speaker 1: of a Sense of Sages who came in n and

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Speaker 1: actually got semper and protective status based on earthquoints that

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Speaker 1: happened in a Provador in two thousand and one. When

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Speaker 1: we're talking about twenty years later. Was he able to

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Speaker 1: get a green card on the basis of his granting

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Speaker 1: of temporary protective status, because you can't get a green

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Speaker 1: card from the side the United States, from an employer

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Speaker 1: unless you have been or even from your clout, unless

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Speaker 1: you were someone who answered legally and then overstate and

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Speaker 1: then got CPS. But if you ainting illegally, you can't

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Speaker 1: that temporary protective status. That was the understanding until people

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Speaker 1: started doing and saying, well, maybe I can because temporary

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Speaker 1: protective status. The Staton says, we're gonna treat you as

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Speaker 1: if you had a non immigrant visa. And so every

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Speaker 1: person with a non immigrant visa or someone who went

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Speaker 1: to an airport and was added into the country, so

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Speaker 1: they're they're presenting like I wasn'tmitted into the country. That

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Speaker 1: was the theory of the case, and that case was

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Speaker 1: very successful in many circuits, but it was not successful

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Speaker 1: in the Third Circuit, and so there was an appeal

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Speaker 1: to the Supreme Court about who's right is it the

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Speaker 1: Ninth Circuit or in the Third Circuit, And so that's

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Speaker 1: what the decision was based on, saying that the Third

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Speaker 1: Circuit was Justice Elena Kagan wrote the decision, and she

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Speaker 1: always writes very clearly, and she said that there are

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Speaker 1: two tracks, so explain the decision. So there are two

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Speaker 1: tracks in this thing. There is who is someone who

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Speaker 1: is a non immigrant to the United States and who

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Speaker 1: is someone who was admitted to the United States. And

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Speaker 1: so what admitted to the United States is that the

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Speaker 1: reason your human body is in the United States is

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Speaker 1: because you either enter through an airport, a landport of entry,

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Speaker 1: or a seaport of entry. You presented a passport to

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Speaker 1: a person with a blue uniform that says Customs and

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Speaker 1: Border Protection. That person with a blue uniform swiped your

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Speaker 1: passports and simpus. That's called an addition. And so you

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Speaker 1: need to be admitted into the country in order to

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Speaker 1: get a green car. And then there's a separate concept

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Speaker 1: called having nonimmigrant status, and that is many people come

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Speaker 1: to America have non immigrant status. They are students, they

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Speaker 1: are workers, they are visitors, they are religious workers, there's

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Speaker 1: all kinds of people have done immigrant status. And what

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Speaker 1: the PPS statue says is during the period that you

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Speaker 1: have temporary protective status, you will be treated like one

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Speaker 1: of these people who have amount immigrant visa. And so

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Speaker 1: the question is does best sentence means that you will

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Speaker 1: be treated like that for the purpose of you can't

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Speaker 1: be deported or does it mean you will be treated

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Speaker 1: like that for the purpose of you can't be deported?

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Speaker 1: And also when all of those people what we talked about,

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Speaker 1: the students, the visitors, and the workers enter the country,

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Speaker 1: they did go through an airport and get their visa.

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Speaker 1: Fam So we're gonna expend the legal fiction to you

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Speaker 1: that you went to the airport and that you're the faan.

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Speaker 1: And what Justice Kagan and the nine in Justice and

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Speaker 1: said was, no, we're not going to say that legal fiction.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna say that this just means the bare minimum

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Speaker 1: it means, which is that you're treated as being legally here,

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Speaker 1: but it doesn't mean that you care legally. So this

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Speaker 1: is another unanimous decision. There have been three immigration decisions

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Speaker 1: in three weeks. They've all been unanimous. How do you

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Speaker 1: account for that? This is a very impressive have run

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Speaker 1: that there have been three basically major confessions by the

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Speaker 1: liberal justices of these immigration matters. And I think there's

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Speaker 1: a couple of things going on here. Number One, I

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Speaker 1: think there's definitely trying to trade for some of the

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Speaker 1: bigger cases that they think are coming down the pipe

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Speaker 1: where they know they're going to need the help of

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Speaker 1: Justice Horseheads or Justice Pony Barrett or Justice Roberts, and

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Speaker 1: they're saying, let's show our magnanimity to our conservative collegues

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Speaker 1: in cases where you can limit the damage and reach

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Speaker 1: these decisions, hoping that let's say, in a case come

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Speaker 1: from DOCTA, they'll be with us whether DOCCA is legal

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Speaker 1: or not, or some of these asylum cases, and they

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Speaker 1: go about they'll be on our side. So I think

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Speaker 1: there's a little bit of that horse trading going on.

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Speaker 1: But I also think that, for instance, in a case

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Speaker 1: like Fanchase, this can actually be fixed very easily by

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Speaker 1: the administration, so sort of a low cast year to

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Speaker 1: the conservative side, which is all the administration has to

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Speaker 1: do to fix this problem is to give every single

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Speaker 1: person with CPS a document called that advanced parole which

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Speaker 1: allows them to travel outside of the United States while

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Speaker 1: they are on the CPS SATUS. And what that advanced

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Speaker 1: parole actually does is it allows for the person to

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Speaker 1: lead and re enter and w they reaverer legally, they

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Speaker 1: solved the problem that they couldn't solve previously before this state.

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Speaker 1: So I think you will eventually see the administration announce

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Speaker 1: those advanced paroles which are perfectly legal, and this case

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Speaker 1: will then have very limited practical meaning at that point.

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Speaker 1: If you look at the reasoning in this case, does

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Speaker 1: this affect Dreamers in any way? The reasoning so it

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Speaker 1: doesn't affect dreamers because the Dreamers don't have the CPS

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Speaker 1: sat uns. But what it does sort of fortend this

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Speaker 1: needs vote for Dreamers and TPS individuals to be able

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Speaker 1: to get this document I get discuss called an advance

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Speaker 1: for all as the only basis that they're gonna be

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Speaker 1: able to use to get a green card meaning doctor

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Speaker 1: is viewed as legal and PPS egregal. But now you

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Speaker 1: can get a green card CPS on its own unless

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Speaker 1: you pay you illegality. What all of those people are

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Speaker 1: gonna have to do is get a document from U S,

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Speaker 1: c I S that allows them to travel abroad and

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Speaker 1: then return. And only when they do that, that's when

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Speaker 1: they're can apply for a freesta. Let's turn for a

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Speaker 1: moment to the Vice President's trip to Central America. She

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Speaker 1: warned Central Americans not to migrate to the US. Do

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Speaker 1: not come, Do not come. If you come to our border,

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Speaker 1: you will be turned back. Is that in fact the

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Speaker 1: case are they being turned back at the border. So

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Speaker 1: there are three groups of people who are arriving at

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Speaker 1: the United States, and depending on which group you're in,

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Speaker 1: your outcome is different. So if you are a single adult,

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Speaker 1: those in new adults are currently being excluded from the

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Speaker 1: United States. They're just switched back there, not even letting

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Speaker 1: nobody puss to under an authority called Tindle forty two,

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Speaker 1: which is a CEC authority that says during communicable disease crises,

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Speaker 1: you could just be pushed back without any further analysis.

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Speaker 1: That's what's happening to single adults. For unaccompanied miners. On

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Speaker 1: the other perspective, every unaccompanied miners being allowed to come

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Speaker 1: into the United States and make a claim for either

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Speaker 1: asylum or special immigrant juvenile status. And that's where you're

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Speaker 1: seeing these convention centers in California and u And I'm

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Speaker 1: exactly fighting the existence of these convention centers, but you're

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Speaker 1: seeing them all along the southern border for housing children

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Speaker 1: until you can put them with an adult pomper and

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Speaker 1: then you can go through their case. And then there's

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Speaker 1: a third group that the hybrid group that's called family units.

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Speaker 1: So that's adult with kids, and it seems like at

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Speaker 1: the moment, about six to seventy percent of those family

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Speaker 1: the units are being allowed to enter to make their

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Speaker 1: claim for asylum, and then another thirty per centers are

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Speaker 1: being excluded under Title forty two. And so the outcome

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Speaker 1: of you will be returned even exactly what's happening on

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Speaker 1: the border right now, unless you are a single adult.

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Speaker 1: One of the point I will make is that this

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Speaker 1: rhetoric is very short of counter productive and complicated. In

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Speaker 1: this set. The Bising administration, unlike the Trump administration, sort

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Speaker 1: of has this moral problem where they don't want to

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Speaker 1: make a decision about what constitutes central American migration. The

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Speaker 1: Trump administration was very comfortable pay that they believed one

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Speaker 1: of the central American migration was economic migration, and none

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Speaker 1: of them were genuine refugees speaking to come into avoid persecution.

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Speaker 1: That is not a sentiment of the Buiding administration believes.

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Speaker 1: But the problem is if you use rhetorics don't come

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Speaker 1: to America because you'll be turned away. That's not what

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Speaker 1: you would say if you thought that there were some

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Speaker 1: group within the larger groups that are legitimate refugees. Because

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Speaker 1: you would never say, for instance, to people in the Holocaust,

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Speaker 1: they don't come, you'll be turned away, because that's not

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Speaker 1: the lage, of course and any way, that wouldn't to

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Speaker 1: turn anyone anyway because of your only choice in bed

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Speaker 1: of course, you're going to come into the country. And

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Speaker 1: so the point of that rhetoric is almost the reason

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Speaker 1: why it's creating controversy under democratic but is because when

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Speaker 1: you say things like don't come, you won't be allowed in,

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Speaker 1: you're saying basically the same thing as the Trump administration

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Speaker 1: that at least the large majority of not the entire

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Speaker 1: bucket of people in Central America are not refugees. And

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Speaker 1: so that's why you're seeing this push. What I want

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Speaker 1: to ask about, So, as you mentioned, AOC representative, Alexandria

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Speaker 1: Ocasio Cortez was very critical of Kamala Harris's remarks. Do

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Speaker 1: integration advocates want everyone who comes to the borders to

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Speaker 1: be allowed in? What are they looking for exactly? I

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Speaker 1: think there are different groups. I think there are some

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Speaker 1: people that are out on that extree. Let's say, look

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Speaker 1: at the end of the at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: people don't remember that the United States, for the first

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Speaker 1: count that it had not nothing. There was no immigration code,

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Speaker 1: so you could just come to the United States and

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Speaker 1: be here, and the United States they collapse or by

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Speaker 1: during that period, and so there's no reason why you

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Speaker 1: couldn't continue that. And that that is actually not just

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Speaker 1: a liberal viewpoint that is held by alpha libertarian from

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Speaker 1: place of like the Cato Institute and upper places like that,

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Speaker 1: where that's one group of people. And so you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if that's perfected perfect the opinion out there,

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Speaker 1: but that that is a group. There's another group that

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Speaker 1: I would say, maybe he is another six that says no,

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Speaker 1: not everybody, but people should have basic opportunity to be

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Speaker 1: able to apply for asylum and they're realistically refugees, you

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Speaker 1: should be able to give them a fair process at

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Speaker 1: determents that that we're not actually pushing back a refugee

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Speaker 1: that would then have something very bad happen to them

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Speaker 1: because we mistakenly push them back. So that's another group.

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Speaker 1: And then obviously you have the perspective of the Trump folks,

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00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 1: which were that this group from Central America with laws

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00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 1: was economics based migration, and so the idea was don't

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Speaker 1: let any of them in and and and try to

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Speaker 1: take away all of the basis by which they might

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Speaker 1: prove they are a refugee. And that's perhaps was also

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Speaker 1: you know us as these extree from that perspective because

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00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:50,160
Speaker 1: there were legitimate refugees within that group, and so it's

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Speaker 1: just a matter of how you get that dollars right, um,

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00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: deterring economic base migration because the point is that all

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Speaker 1: migration that you can migration to offense through channels that

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00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 1: exist in the system, albeit that those channels are not

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Speaker 1: exactly easy to access, nor are they available in many cases,

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Speaker 1: but still you must access that you should just show

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00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: up at the border illegally. But when there are genuine,

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Speaker 1: real refugees to allow people to make those claims so

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Speaker 1: that they can actually fairly be protected and they need

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Speaker 1: that protection. The idea is they're going to try to

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Speaker 1: address the root causes of immigration by helping these countries.

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Speaker 1: Has that worked before? Well, this is what's complicated, and

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Speaker 1: I've been saying this and people pretty much uh, and

459
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: to ignore this because it just makes its time hopeless.

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Speaker 1: But an important thing to really consider, which when you

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00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: take the growth domestic products for capita of the three

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00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 1: mains and the immigration countries in Central America, Gatemala, darth

463
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 1: and no savodors. We're talking about a three to four

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00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:02,719
Speaker 1: thousand dollar per person GW semestic products. And even if

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Speaker 1: you compare that to Mexico, which has about a nine

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00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 1: to ten thousand dollars for tappitt products, you then look

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Speaker 1: at the fact that at the moment it's haven't been

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Speaker 1: true for the last few years, but it's true. Right

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Speaker 1: at the comment, we are seeing a certain of migration

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Speaker 1: also from Mexico, and that's partly because COVID has done

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Speaker 1: from damage in Mexico, and it's also because obviously there's

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Speaker 1: a worker shortage here in the United States where a

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Speaker 1: lot of workers are being needed for things like home

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Speaker 1: construction and other things of that nature. And so what

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Speaker 1: you're saying is, Okay, let's say I get four billion

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Speaker 1: dollars to a place, and let's say all of that

477
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: four billions you constructively, that's still not gonna get you

478
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Speaker 1: anywhere near swippling the size of the economies of Guatemala,

479
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Speaker 1: Al Favador and Honduras. And so people just has to

480
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: be realistic about this, which is, you know, there's gonna

481
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: be always a comparison between what life is like in

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Speaker 1: the United States and what life is like in Guatemalaham,

483
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: Durus and al Pavadore. And so there's always going to

484
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: be a push factor to get people or a pull

485
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: proctor to get people to am going into the United States.

486
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: What what needs to happen is all of that needs

487
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: to be needed realistically and to say, fine, some of

488
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 1: this root caused investments matters because because you to make

489
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: a plate say I'm not talking about economically vibrant, but

490
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: say state actually does solve some of the push factors

491
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Speaker 1: that lead people to leave and to migrate to the

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Speaker 1: United States. But I think that's the best you're gonna

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Speaker 1: be able to do. If you think that you'd ever

494
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Speaker 1: be able to make the three Central American countries completely

495
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: oblivious to the attractiveness of the United States most a venture,

496
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: I don't think there's worked pursuing because the United States

497
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 1: is attractive against almost every country in the world vise

498
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: of the economic opportunity, and because that will certainly always

499
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Speaker 1: be the case and in Central America as well. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for being on the show. Leon, that's Leon Fresco of

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00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: Hollanden Night. And that's it for this edition of the

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can always get the latest

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00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: legal moves on our Bloomberg Lawn podcast. You can find

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00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at www dot bloomberg

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00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 1: dot com slash podcast Slash Law. I'm June Grosso and

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Speaker 1: you're listening to Bloomberg