1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. M 4 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to the show, Ladies and Gentlemen. They called me Ben. 5 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: We're joined with our long suffering super producer Paul Decant. 6 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: Most importantly, you are you, and that makes this stuff 7 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. But then you may 8 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: be asking where are your trustee co host Matt Frederick 9 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: and Noel Brown. Without divulging too much information, I can 10 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 1: reveal that they are both on separate secret missions for 11 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: the time being, but they will return very soon. And 12 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: I wonder now whether they are traveling by plane, train 13 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: or automn bial specifically of old Swagen. You see, today's 14 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: episode is about not a conspiracy theory, but an ongoing conspiracy, 15 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: a cover up of global nature right, not just one 16 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:20,119 Speaker 1: single incidents, not one single year, but a cover up 17 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: spanning multiple industries, multiple countries, and multiple years. And what 18 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: better way to investigate this conspiracy than to call on 19 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 1: some help from our longtime friend and recurring guests on 20 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 1: the show, Ladies and Gentlemen, How Stuff Works? Expert for 21 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: all things automotive, Scott, Benjamin, how do you do, Ben? 22 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: How do you do? It's good to be back in 23 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: front of the mic. Yeah yeah. Um. For some background here, everyone, Scott, 24 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: you and I for around a decade, a little bit 25 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: short of a decade, hosted a very different show together 26 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: called Car Stuff. Yeah, that's right. We had a long, 27 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,559 Speaker 1: long run, and so we've got an incredible archive and 28 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: one of those topics that we talked about, of course 29 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: during that, you know, is nine plus years, a little 30 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: bit over nine years. One of those topics was Volkswagen. 31 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: You know, somewhere along the way we I don't think 32 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: we ever covered a full history of Volkswagen, but we 33 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: did cover the Volkswagen Beatle, We covered the Volkswagen one 34 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: Leader car, you know, some of that stuff. And I 35 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 1: know Volkswagen came up many times in the in the podcast. 36 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: In fact, I own a Volkswagen. That's true. I currently 37 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: own a Volkswagen, not an affected Volkswagen, which is lucky, right, yes, 38 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: very fortunate. And uh think you know what I owe 39 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: you another thanks for coming on this show, because I 40 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: completely forgot when we when we said, you know, Scott 41 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 1: should be our guest for today's episode, we completely forgot 42 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: that you do, in fact drive a Volkswagen. Yeah. Well again, 43 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: thankfully not one of the one of the ones that 44 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: had to be recalled. But this is an incredible story, 45 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: one that unfolded in front of the media, in front 46 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,359 Speaker 1: of the world really. Um and uh, there's no doubt 47 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: about it. I mean there was a cover up, we'll 48 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: talk about that for sure, and it did span many, 49 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: many years, and there was, uh, there was inside knowledge 50 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: of this early on. You know it was it was 51 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 1: known to the company before it was released to the public. 52 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:14,959 Speaker 1: I mean they were definitely trying to hide something, absolutely, 53 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: And so for anyone listening to the show who is 54 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: not uh specifically a gear head or doesn't consider themselves 55 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: a car person, I can guarantee that you're going to 56 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: find some very strange and fascinating things. Nonetheless, and the 57 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: story begins, I would say, the story really begins in 58 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: the late nineteen thirties, is that correct? And I are 59 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: you talking about the beginning of Volkswagen. Yeah, yeah, sure, 60 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: we can talk about the beginning of Volkswagen. Well, we'll 61 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: just kind of quickly go over this. But one of 62 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: the most fascinating things if you look up Volkswagen. And 63 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: I bet a lot of people don't quite understand this. 64 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: They might know the time between um Adolf Hitler and 65 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: wanting to build what they call the people's car, that 66 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: would be the Volkswagen bil the bug. Yeah, he's actually 67 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: credited as being one of the founders of Volkswagen if 68 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: if you can believe that, I mean the German Labor 69 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: Front who was under the control of Adolf Hitler at 70 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: the time. So you'll find that Adolf Hitler is listed 71 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: as one of the founders of Volkswagen. Interesting fact, I thought. 72 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: But I mean it starts in what nineteen thirty seven, 73 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: I believe, is when Volkswagen became an official mark, right yeah, 74 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: headquartered in Wolfsburg, Germany, and that that's the name Volkswagen 75 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: k was just meant the people's car company, right sure, yeah, 76 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: yeah yeah. And then you know, the idea was to 77 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: create something that the people could afford, that people could drive, 78 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 1: that people could you know, easily get their hands on. 79 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: But it was also uh strictly controlled by the government. 80 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: As you can imagine. It was something that you know, 81 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: the direction was coming down from you know, people that 82 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 1: really didn't have how do I want to put this ben. 83 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: It wasn't. It wasn't necessarily um designed in a purely 84 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: creative environment. It was somebody was dictating what had to 85 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: happen in that car, like this is the way we 86 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: want it, this is the way it has to be. Right. 87 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: They were building to a list of constraints exactly right. Yeah. 88 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 1: And the funny thing is like the with the Volkswagen 89 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: and even the start of the company. I mean, if 90 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: you notice the timing, we're talking about seven, this is 91 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: the onset of World War two, and so there is 92 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: going to be a delay in production until after that. 93 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: So the very few Volkswagen Beatles, even though they were 94 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: designed ahead of time, you know, ahead of ahead of 95 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: World War two, Uh, they were not really widely delivered 96 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: until after World War two because there's the gap, that 97 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: gap in production because they shifted over to become a 98 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 1: war machine, which happened with multiple manufacturers, not just on 99 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 1: the Axis side, but on the Allies side as wetly 100 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 1: both sides of the ocean. Yeah, that was happening everywhere. 101 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: Is that, you know, car production pretty much halted during 102 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: World War two. And shameless plug we have a pretty 103 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: interesting series of episodes about that on car stuff. Show 104 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: dot com available for free, huge archive. It's actually we 105 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: have a lot of stuff on that. So let's move 106 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: a little bit further ahead. You know, you look around 107 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 1: at Volkswagen's today and you see how popular they are. 108 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: Right driving any major metropolitan area and you're bound to 109 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: see several of different years, differing different models, et cetera. 110 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: But you have to ask yourself, all right, this is 111 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: this is a Nazi car, right, how did this not 112 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 1: no offense got how did this? How did this Nazi 113 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:32,599 Speaker 1: car become uh so popular here in the United States? 114 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: Because initially sales were lower for two fronts, for two 115 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 1: reasons rather one was the association with Germany, and the 116 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 1: second was that the car was seen, I don't want 117 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: to say, seem like a twerp, but it was smaller 118 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: and it had a differing different form. You know, it 119 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 1: was more rounded, people used to rear engine. You know, 120 00:06:57,720 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: I had a couple of different things going against it. 121 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 1: I guess as far as you know it's it's sale 122 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:04,720 Speaker 1: in America because you know, we at the time, we 123 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 1: were in love with the giant vehicles, you know, the 124 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: great big the lead sleds. You know that at the time, 125 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: you know, the huge steel vehicles that were enormous. They were, 126 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: you know, twenty ft long, had giant v engines. It 127 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: was just a different thing altogether, really, and and it 128 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: was tough to convince people until about well, you know what, 129 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: actually we again we have another podcast about this. But 130 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: you know, the the officers that came back from World 131 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: War Two had kind of fallen in love with the 132 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: British sports cars and you know that the the small 133 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: vehicle you know, maybe they only set two people, sometimes four, 134 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: but you know it's a very small convertible vehicle sport 135 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: e um. And that trend started to take off and 136 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: and really become popular in the sixties, I guess is 137 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: when you know, they were doing a little bit of both. 138 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: They were making some big cars, they were making some 139 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: small cars, kind of experimenting with you know, where we're 140 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: gonna import cars from because these are popular and um, 141 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: you know, the Volkswagon bill kind of fits snuggling in there. 142 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: But it wasn't until probably what the early or late 143 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, early nineteen seventies that the Beatle really really 144 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: took off here in the End States and shot off 145 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: like a rocket. And the reason was because of the 146 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: the oil embargo. Yeah, let's talk a little bit about 147 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: that in the geopolitical and the domestic circumstance, right, Uh, 148 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: this is at a time where in gas prices are 149 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: skyrocketing for the average person. Sure, and a big land 150 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: yacht or what you would call lead sled engine is 151 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's gonna be a notoriously thirsty beast. Right. 152 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 1: It's not quite like an Abrams tank. We're not talking 153 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: gallons per mile, but you're gonna you're gonna be paying 154 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: a lot in fuel. Even when prices are normal, it 155 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: was pretty close to gallons per mile. Yeah, yeah, they 156 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: were not eco friendly. That wasn't even a term people 157 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: would apply at the time. But a smaller car with 158 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: a smaller engine like the Bug is going to be, uh, 159 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: suddenly much more attractive. And we've seen a similar thing 160 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: happened when gas prices spiked several years back and a 161 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: bunch of people realized they didn't like their H two's 162 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: that much. Remember that, commers, Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, 163 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 1: So this is all happening in the early in eighteen seventies. 164 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: I'll say I think it's nineteen seventy three was really 165 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,079 Speaker 1: the first crunch for us here and then later in 166 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine the same thing happened again. So throughout 167 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: the seventies really, uh, there was a push to create smaller, 168 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 1: more efficient vehicles, and and Volkswagen had a vehicle that 169 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:35,959 Speaker 1: was ready made for this, you know, the import of 170 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 1: the vehicle, and it was wild, you know, wildly popular. Um. 171 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: In fact, it had a it had a long, long run, 172 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: didn't it. I mean it was was it second after 173 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: I can't remember? Was it first or second? I think 174 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 1: it was after the Model T. I think I think 175 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 1: it might be second. Let's see, because in nineteen seventy 176 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 1: two they had already surpassed fifteen million vehicles. Wait, so 177 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:01,719 Speaker 1: that would make them first. Yeah, that's right there, that 178 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: would make them first because they were produced well into 179 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: the nineteen I want to say, nineteen nineties, even in 180 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: Mexico I think, and the Model T was what to Yeah, 181 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: that's right. Yeah. So this, this is an enormously popular vehicle. 182 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: It recovers from a stigma associated with one of its 183 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 1: original founders, Aidolf Hitler. Yeah, that's still the most baffling things. Well, 184 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: you know, let's let's move on past that though, because 185 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: this isn't just we're talking about a group of UM 186 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: manufacturers of marks. Really now at this point it's not 187 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: just Volkswagen. So we're talking about Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini, Bentley, Bugatti. 188 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: These are all owned under uh, the parent company of Volkswagen. 189 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: So in addition to that, there are other automobiles that 190 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: we don't necessarily see here in the United States. There's 191 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 1: in Spain, there's the Seat brand which makes automobiles and 192 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: auto parts. Their Scania, which is in Sweden that makes 193 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: commercial trucks. There is the Man company m A n 194 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,199 Speaker 1: which is in Germany and they also make commercial trucks 195 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: and engines. And then there's Scota, which is from the 196 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 1: Czech Republic and they make automobiles as well. So Volkswagen 197 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: is this enormous worldwide company that produces millions of cars 198 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:13,839 Speaker 1: a year. We might not see as many here in 199 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: the United States as as they do elsewhere in the world. Uh, 200 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: you know, there's still big numbers. They're they're a popular 201 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:21,199 Speaker 1: company here in the United States. I want to say 202 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:25,199 Speaker 1: they're like the number nine seller of vehicles right right now. 203 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: I think I looked up the number yesterday and I 204 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,839 Speaker 1: believe their number nine UM in the United States. Um, 205 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: and that's a you know, a leap ahead of where 206 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: they were, let's say twenty years ago. Twenty years ago, 207 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: they were selling you know, just it's probably tens of 208 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: thousands still, but now they're selling hundreds of thousands of 209 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:43,679 Speaker 1: Eagles in the United States, if not, you know, over 210 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: a million at this point. So um, And again, that 211 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: encompasses all their brands. And I know some of the 212 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: smaller you know, I should say smaller, but some of 213 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: the more boutique type cars. I guess, you know, the 214 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: Lamborghini is the Bentleys of Buggatti's they sell less. Of course, 215 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: they're they're primary, if you want to call it bread 216 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: and butter. I guess we be the Volkswagen brand, Audi brand, 217 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:04,319 Speaker 1: and even I'll say even Porsche, because they saw a 218 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 1: lot of cars here. That's true. Yeah, I would say that. Yeah, 219 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:11,439 Speaker 1: it's strictly speaking in the US, and we're we're establishing 220 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 1: here that this is not a I don't know, I 221 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 1: don't know what we call it. This is not a 222 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: cottage industry. This is not like a This is not 223 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: a the rarefied air of high performance exotic cars like 224 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:30,439 Speaker 1: this is not McLaren doing something of this nature. So 225 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: we have this, we have this massive car manufacturer. Right, 226 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:40,319 Speaker 1: we're talking millions of cars, we're talking billions of dollars. 227 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:47,319 Speaker 1: And then of course we're talking about the law. Right 228 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: because just the same way that the original VW Beetle 229 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: was built according to a set of constraints, all vehicles 230 00:12:55,679 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: in developed countries must conform to certain sets of stay enterds. 231 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: And this includes everything from you know, the the presence 232 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: of air bags, to break standards like when you apply 233 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 1: a break to things like collapsible joints, you know, used 234 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: in place of an accident. One of the big complaints 235 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:24,239 Speaker 1: you hear from a lot of high performance car enthusiasts 236 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 1: is that these safety regulations primarily add weight in their opinions. Yeah, absolutely, 237 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: it's a it's to a lot of people, it's a 238 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,559 Speaker 1: lot of nonsense. It to other people, it's a necessity. 239 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: You know, you have to have these things in order 240 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: to produce and sell a vehicle in the United States 241 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: or in the European Union, or in the China market, 242 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: or you know, wherever wherever you're talking about. You have 243 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: a certain market you have to target for certain things, 244 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: you know, and emissions is one of those things. They 245 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: have cars that are US Emissions UM compliant and they 246 00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: have cars that are European Emissions Client compliant rather and 247 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: those are two separate things there. It's different systems. And 248 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: I'll tell you I found this out as its kind 249 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 1: of fascinated by this when I read this, and I 250 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 1: didn't quite understand this, but someone had described it in 251 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: this way. Is that UM, I guess what we're talking 252 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: about is different types of exhaust gases that come out 253 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:18,319 Speaker 1: of the tail pipe really and and what comes out 254 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: of there. It's it's mandated by the government agencies that 255 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: are that are in charge here. So in the United States, 256 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: it's the e p A that's in charge of of 257 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: UM making sure that you know, the vehicles are compliant 258 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: to whether it's you know, the country, the state, or 259 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 1: even the county or the city that we're in, because 260 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: it does vary, uh, state by state in that way. 261 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's just the county that you're in, UM. Because 262 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 1: here in Georgia, just because we're in the county that 263 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: Atlanta is in, you know, the main city, uh, the 264 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: capital city, UM, we are we are required to get 265 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: a missions tested every every single year, every uh you know, 266 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: once a year around your birthday you have the missions tested. 267 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: Then it's when you get your tag renewal and all that. 268 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: But if you're outside of that area, they don't care. 269 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: There's no emissions testing. Uh. It's different from you know, 270 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: by state by states. Some states the entire state isn't 271 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: it's necessary. Other states is just certain areas like what 272 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: we have here in Georgia. Um. And then some of 273 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: them have you know, gear exclusions, like you know, if 274 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: your car is older than a certain age, it doesn't 275 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 1: have to be tested. And some of them, you know, 276 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: the first four years you don't have to have your 277 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: car tested because it's a brand new car. Which all 278 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: this seems very arbitrary, I understand, but it's but these 279 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: are rules that are um refined state by state, so 280 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: that you know, there's one overlaying rule from the government 281 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: that says, you know, it's in order to buy or 282 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: to import and sell cars here in the United States, 283 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: you have to meet these mandates. And the same thing 284 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: with European Union, except it's a set of directives that 285 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: come down from uh, you know, from their leadership, you know, 286 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: more centralized exactly right, Yeah, so they have a more 287 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: standardized system for for all of the European Union really, 288 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: and of course, like any large manufacturer, Volkswagen has hundreds 289 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: and hundreds of people whose soul job in the organization 290 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: is to make sure that these cars meet these standards. Yeah, 291 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: and just so I'm clear on this, I mean, the 292 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: US and the European Union have different air pollution standards. 293 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: So just take for example, the U S standards are 294 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: kind of strict on nitrogen oxides, which is you'll see 295 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: it abbreviated as nl X, and then particulate matter. Well, 296 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: the European standards are more strict on carbon dioxide which 297 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: is CO two and carbon monoxides. So, in other words, 298 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: European regulators are focused on like fuel efficiency and they 299 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: try to limit the dependency on crude oil from Russia 300 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: and the Middle East well, um, and and on greenhouse 301 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 1: gas emissions of course, you know, and of course climate 302 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: change places into all this. But on the other hand, 303 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: American regulators are more focused on smog and the health 304 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: impacts of the air pollution. So, uh, they have different 305 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: standards based on what they're trying to trying to achieve, uh, 306 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: you know, for their air quality. I guess, yeah, that 307 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: makes sense. That's that's done, a crazy story that all 308 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: seems on the up and up. So what happens when 309 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: things start to go wrong? Will answer this after a 310 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 1: word from our sponsor. Welcome back. Before the break, Scott, 311 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: you and I explain some of the history of Volkswagen, 312 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 1: the size of the organization, a couple of numbers, and uh. 313 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: We also looked at their interaction with various governments. I'm 314 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 1: not gonna lean too hard on the on the Nazi history. 315 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,400 Speaker 1: It's it's just a real thing and you can fall 316 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 1: down that rabbit hole if you wish, folks, sir, But 317 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: you know, we we've we've painted the scene, we've provided 318 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: the backdrop. Now I would I know, I'd like to 319 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 1: ask you about the timeline that applies here. When do 320 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: things start going wrong with voltzwag? Okay, so we didn't 321 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 1: hear about this until right around right septem a couple 322 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: of years ago, maybe almost three years ago at this point, 323 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: and h you know, people would probably be surprised to 324 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: learn that this actually began if you really want to 325 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 1: get down to the you know, the root cause of 326 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 1: this whole thing. It started around which is crazy. So 327 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: what happens? All right? So in they're brand new US 328 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 1: rules now they call them Tier two rules, which I 329 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 1: think they have updated to Tier three at this point. 330 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 1: But we're talking about, um, uh, the the limits decreasing 331 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: on what's allowed, you know, for exhaust gas emissions. So 332 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 1: we're talking about nitrogen oxides, things like um, you know, 333 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 1: nitric oxide and nitrogen dioxide, and they're usually produced by 334 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: the combustion of fuel. Right, So the limits were decreasing 335 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 1: from um I believe it's one gram per million to 336 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 1: something like point zero seven gram per million. Okay, So yeah, 337 00:18:57,359 --> 00:18:59,880 Speaker 1: so it's a significant reduction, it is. Yeah, it's it's 338 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 1: reducing and uh. And because of that, there has to 339 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,239 Speaker 1: be kind of a phase in period when they allow, um, 340 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: you know, manufacturer to adjust to this to you know, 341 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:09,159 Speaker 1: try to make their cars run a little bit more efficient, 342 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: run a little bit more lean, I suppose, right. Um. 343 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 1: The problem with that is, and as we'll find out, 344 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 1: is that you want to kind of have a balance 345 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,679 Speaker 1: between performance, of course, because people want performance in their car. 346 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: They don't want to be a just an absolute dog 347 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: on the road, of course, and you don't want to 348 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 1: have a vehicle that is disputing emissions, you know, because 349 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: it takes more fuel probably in most cases to go faster. Right, 350 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: You're trying to get the most efficiency out of that fuel, 351 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 1: and sometimes that requires burning more fuel. In fact, all 352 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: the time that cars burning more fuel, Right, But you're 353 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:40,439 Speaker 1: trying to do that in a way that you know, 354 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,479 Speaker 1: you can filter, you can you know, run it as 355 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 1: lean as possible while still maintaining this balance between performance 356 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,640 Speaker 1: and fuel economy. Okay, so that's the that's the idea. Oh, 357 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: we should also point out those those nitrogen oxides we're mentioning. 358 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: Think of those as some of the key ingredients in 359 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: air pollution. So these are the gases that are instrumental 360 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: in the formation of stuff like acid rain or small Yeah, 361 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: and I'll tell you that this is difficult to do 362 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: because they give you know, they give the manufacturers ten 363 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: years in order to conform to this. So they've got 364 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 1: ten years from so let's say two thousand nine is 365 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 1: when these new standards are supposed to take place, Right, 366 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: they're gonna they're gonna phase them in. So throughout the 367 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: two thousand's, you know, to let's say two thousand four 368 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 1: or through about two thousand nine, Um, there's this diesel 369 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: emissions change as well it's not just gyasolne it's diesel 370 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: as well. So UM. In two thousand seven, Volkswagen officially 371 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:35,919 Speaker 1: suspended the sales of the current diesel lines and they 372 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: were waiting for new technology standards come through. They're they're 373 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: developing new product, is what they're doing. Really. They also 374 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: this is also around the time that the European Union 375 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:53,880 Speaker 1: banned something that was pretty common in this diesel testing thing, 376 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: and that was something called a defeat device. Yes, okay, 377 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 1: now the defeat device will come up later, I'm sure, 378 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: but the defeat device is nothing that is exclusive two Volkswagon. 379 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: I think state that upfront. Uh. That might also be 380 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: kind of a shocker to people is that, uh, these 381 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,440 Speaker 1: defeat devices are are known to exist for other companies. 382 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: In fact, I've seen I think it's Rena, Suzuki, there 383 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 1: were other companies that were mentioned that. UM. I'll be 384 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: able to find it here in just a second of 385 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: my notes. But um, the defeat devices really are there 386 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 1: to save the car, save the engine, really, UM, that's 387 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: the that's the primary purpose of them. It's so that 388 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 1: if you know that the car itself kind of figures 389 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: out that something's not going right, you know that it's 390 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 1: not it's not operating in the right temperature range. It's 391 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: not you know, there's something a load on the vehicle 392 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: that shouldn't be there. It's not going to destroy itself. 393 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: It's it's going to in some way save itself. It's 394 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: gonna it's gonna try to self preserve, try to at least. 395 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,360 Speaker 1: And what we're talking about is is a software situation. 396 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: It's not it's not a mechanical thing. It's an electronic thing. 397 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 1: It's going to either increase decreased fuel as necessary. It's 398 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: going to you know, it's going to create a condition 399 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: and I guess it's more favorable to the engine. And 400 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 1: in two thousand and seven, the European Union finally introduced 401 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: a rule for carmakers that said you gotta you gotta 402 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: stop using this defeat device loophole because what they were 403 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: doing with the software, which as as you said, Scott, 404 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: was the designed to preserve an engine, what they were 405 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 1: doing instead was using it to cheat on these tests. 406 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: It would manipulate emissions and therefore performance right or performance 407 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:36,680 Speaker 1: and therefore emissions depending on whether the car was on 408 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: the what what they were called the test stand where 409 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: you test the performance and see if it means a 410 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 1: mission standards versus driving actually driving on the road. So 411 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: you know, the fancy insider automotive term for this, and 412 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: I don't want to get too into jargon is cheating. Yeah, 413 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 1: that's exactly what was going on. I mean. And the 414 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 1: other company that was listed I mentioned, I think Renault 415 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: and Suzuki, but Hyndai also was known to have defeat 416 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: devices that they've used in the past, and again that's 417 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,199 Speaker 1: to prevent engine damage at certain temperatures. So, um, it 418 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: makes sense that you know they would have something in 419 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 1: place like that. But again, when you use that, when 420 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: you switch that on, that's that's the deceptive part here. 421 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: So let's go back to two thousand seven. So so 422 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,679 Speaker 1: again defeat devices not exclusive to Vokeswagon. A lot of 423 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 1: places are using a lot of people are using them. 424 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: Manufacturers I mean by people of course, not people. Um, 425 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: so it's nothing mechanical really, just all electronic. So back 426 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 1: in two thousand seven, I guess they were there was 427 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 1: talk of Volkswagen using this to kind of skew the 428 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:42,919 Speaker 1: numbers a little bit, you know, And and bosh, I 429 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,680 Speaker 1: guess who is a um an Engineering and Electronics company 430 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 1: and Stutgard Germany. A lot of people have heard of BOSH, 431 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: I'm sure. Uh, they're a supplier of automotive components. They 432 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 1: allegedly warned Volkswagen not to use their software Blosh software illegally, 433 00:23:58,240 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: so you know, they had they knew they had control, 434 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: they could manipulate the software how they wanted, but they said, 435 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:04,919 Speaker 1: in two thousand seven, please don't, you know, do that 436 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 1: in order to conform to these new standards. There's a 437 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:08,679 Speaker 1: better way around this, you know, do it in a 438 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 1: different manner. So in two thousand and eight, just a 439 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 1: year later, volks by and announces that it has clean 440 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: diesel cars. And I think we've probably all heard clean diesel. 441 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: And this is right around when a lot of people 442 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: really changed their mind about diesel in the United States. 443 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 1: It wasn't something that was known as a as a 444 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: dirty vehicle, polluting vehicle because prior to then, you know, 445 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 1: when you think of diesel cars, you think of cars that, 446 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: you know, trucks, cars that were terribly smokey and they 447 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: just smell bad all the time, and they were just 448 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 1: everything about them was different. I mean, they operate differently internally. Uh, 449 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: they're tougher, to start to accelerate. Yeah, it's just not 450 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: It wasn't something that was part of American culture. I guess, 451 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: if you want to put it that way, there's certain 452 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: there's certain uses for diesel vehicles, but it was primarily commercial, right. 453 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: It was primarily people that you know, long long haul 454 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: truckers and you know people that were using d equipment 455 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: around um, I don't know, tree nurseries or something like that. 456 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: You know, they were using an equipment, not necessarily, and 457 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,719 Speaker 1: they're on the road, on the road cars even though 458 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 1: they were out there, they were kind of few and 459 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 1: far between at that point. But now in two thousand eight, 460 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: Volkswagon's got this clean diesel and I remember that, you know, 461 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: Mercedes came out with clean diesel, and a lot of 462 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: places like to claim that they have clean diesel cars. 463 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: And of course you're not gonna have any problem with emissions, right, 464 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 1: none at all, and you're gonna have all the performance 465 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: that you want. Things are going to be even better 466 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: than you could have. Matched gonna drive just like a 467 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: gasoline powered car, absolutely no problems at all. So it 468 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: could go wrong, alright, So the problem here is that 469 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,199 Speaker 1: around two thousand eight, cars with what we'll call the 470 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: test rigging software. We're starting to be sold in the 471 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,439 Speaker 1: United Kingdom, and they know that, they know that in 472 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, they were still using this defeat 473 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 1: device in order to kind of get around the emissions 474 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: controls uh that we're happening over in the European Union. 475 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,400 Speaker 1: And in two thousand nine, uh, this is when the 476 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: Volkswagen t d I cars actually went on sale in 477 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: the United States. Now in Europe, some of the models 478 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: are also being described as UM euro emissions Class five vehicles, 479 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:08,679 Speaker 1: and you know, they have all these classes that they 480 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 1: like to say that we're compliant to, you know, and 481 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 1: that will change throughout the years. I don't know if 482 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 1: we want to keep up with that in this discussion really, 483 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: because I think it just kind of gets lost in 484 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 1: the weeds somewhere. But um, around two thousand nine is 485 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: when they these t d I cars, you know, the 486 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 1: cars that all they all that little badge t d I. 487 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: Those are the ones that are considered to be clean 488 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 1: diesel cars were sold here in the United States. Um. 489 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: And then I guess you know from around what I guess, 490 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: from two thousand nine right when they were introduced until 491 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 1: about two thousand, fifteen, that's the key day right to 492 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: two thifteen. Uh, it seemed like there was really a 493 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 1: big movement. A lot of people really like their diesel cars. 494 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,120 Speaker 1: They didn't have a problem finding the gas a gas 495 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: stations because you know, more stations were carrying it. Now 496 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,919 Speaker 1: because there's this influx of cars that that need to 497 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: require diesel fuel, you can't fill it up with gasoline 498 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 1: of course, so there's that, you know, it's it's just 499 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 1: an easier vehicle to uh, to be able to fuel 500 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 1: than was. You know, like back when you had to 501 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: go to a truck stop somewhere on the highway in 502 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,679 Speaker 1: order to get fuel. Um, Now you could go to 503 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: practically any gas station and fuel up and you were 504 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:08,919 Speaker 1: getting the performance that you wanted out of it. It 505 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 1: was just like your gasoline powered car. Um, they're brand new, 506 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,920 Speaker 1: you know. There there's something that at the time was um, 507 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: you know economical, I guess um you know there there 508 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:23,880 Speaker 1: were fuel efficient you had it all really until it's 509 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,880 Speaker 1: a long pause. Yeah, yeah, it's a little dramatic there. 510 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: Uh until um people started comparing notes and we'll get 511 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:44,160 Speaker 1: to that after a word from our sponsor. Here's where 512 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: it gets crazy. So, as we said at the beginning 513 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 1: of the show, fifteen is sort of a harbinger of 514 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: things to come. Right, So here's here's what's happening during 515 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 1: this time and the years leading up to this moment. 516 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: As as we said earlier, different different states, different countries, 517 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 1: different counties within states, all have differing standards, right, and 518 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: largely a lot of the testing is going to be 519 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: the same. It's just where they set the bar for 520 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:29,360 Speaker 1: passing or failing and what they're testing for. Right. So 521 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: here in the United States, one of the one of 522 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 1: the states with more stringent standards would be California. The 523 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: automotive world, California is very well known for having emission 524 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: standards and pollution standards that are significantly higher in other states. 525 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: They have a group called CARB which is the California 526 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 1: Air Resource Board. And how many times in the past 527 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: it just remember back a couple of decades, if you will, 528 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: think about like watching cars be given away on the 529 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: prices right, or you know one of the one of 530 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: the game shows, how many times did you see them 531 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: say when they're giving away a car, they would say 532 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: that it's CARBS certified or it has California Missions California 533 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 1: missions was a thing, and I don't know, I think 534 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: it kind of still is, but that includes more states 535 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: at this point. Now there are other states that have 536 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: matched what California has done. So at the time it 537 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: was just them, but they had much stricter restrictions on 538 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 1: Is that that went stricter restrictions? I guess, yeah, that's fine. 539 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: I guess they they were. They were very specific in 540 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: saying that, you know, it's it's definitely got California missions, 541 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: it's California Air Resource Board UM authenticated. You know that 542 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: this is one that that complies to that absolutely. And 543 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: at the time, that meant that you could drive this 544 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: car anywhere. Yeah, sure you could. If you could drive 545 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: it through California, you know what I mean, you're good 546 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: to go anywhere. You could take a car out of there. 547 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: But if you were to move into California with another vehicle, 548 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: I have to have it tested. You would likely have 549 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 1: to add a bunch of hardware in order to make 550 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: your car, uh, you know, as clean as the cars 551 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 1: that were are meant to be sold in California. Yeah, 552 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: you know. And at some points during that time, people 553 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: moving to California would just sell their car. Yeah, yeah, 554 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: it happened. And you know, and now there are many 555 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: other states that have kind of followed suit with California 556 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 1: in their same strict well again strict restrictions on on 557 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: exhaust gases. So in two thousand fourteen, the year before 558 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: the s hits the f if we're going to keep 559 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: it as a family show, right, uh, the year before 560 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: the Badgers pop out of the bag carved, the California 561 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: Air Resource Board is studying discrepancies that they've found between 562 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: European and US models of vehicles. Right, and they take 563 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: three different sources, uh, for fifteen vehicles, and they find something. 564 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: They find something not quite rotten in the state of Denmarket, 565 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: but you know, they find something smelling all little ripe 566 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: because several scientists I believe went in West Virginia said, hey, 567 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: there's something up with the diesel cars. Yeah, because we 568 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: had three that we tested, and what they're showing us 569 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 1: on the road is vastly different. They're much much dirtier 570 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 1: than the test would indicate or than the auto manufacturers 571 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: have promised. So what's really unusual about this is that 572 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: you could take those same three vehicles that you're talking about, 573 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: you know, it just brandom vehicles that they selected and 574 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 1: put them into a test bay and measure the emissions 575 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 1: and everything will turn out fine. They will certify as 576 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 1: you know, no, no problem, all it's it's an emissions compliant. 577 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: You take that same vehicle and you attach mobile UH 578 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 1: technology to it. I guess you know something that is 579 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: a that that can test the vehicle while it's on 580 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: the road, while it's driving. And they were finding that 581 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: these cars were emitting sometimes forty times the amount of 582 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: permitted levels of nitrogen oxides f D times forty times 583 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: times the amount. So what is happening during these during 584 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: these testing procedures. Is it? Is it an accident? Is 585 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: it somehow just these individual cars? Right? Did something fail 586 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: on these cars? That's the first question. Is there a defect? Yeah? Sure, 587 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: And you might be scratching your head like why would 588 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: they go to West Virginia to check this out? They 589 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: went to West Virginia University where they have something called 590 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: the Center for Alternative Fuels, Engines and Emissions. So they 591 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: have something that's called confusingly enough cafe, which is with 592 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 1: an exit with an extra E, not cafe standards, but 593 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,719 Speaker 1: with an extra E cafe and Cafe standards, just by 594 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: way of reference, are a set of regulations that all 595 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: that cars have to obey in the United States. Yeah, 596 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 1: this goes back to what we're talking about in when 597 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: they've got ten years to comply to this, you know, uh, 598 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: an overall fuel economy for your fleet of vehicles. UM. 599 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: More on that on car stuff if you want to 600 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: go to shameless plug. But um so, the idea was 601 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 1: they were actually trying to do something not here. I 602 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 1: guess they were trying to figure out, you know, some 603 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: of the benefits I guess of US diesel technology and 604 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: hoping to have Europe kind of follow along with that 605 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: and and and see if they could achieve the same 606 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: low levels of um nitrogen oxides for emissions. And instead 607 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: they found something different. They found these discrepancies I guess 608 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 1: between uh, you know, the on road emissions versus what 609 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: was being published as you know, the fuel standards of 610 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: the emission standards I guess for diesel engines here in 611 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 1: the United States. Just the numbers weren't matching up for 612 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: the West Virginia University researchers in any shape fashion or four. No, no, no, no, no, 613 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: exactly right. So they did publish this. They published their findings, 614 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: and the thing is the publication. You know. They didn't 615 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: want to say anything to Volkswagen directly, of course, because 616 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: you don't you don't talk about that kind of thing. 617 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: I guess you don't accuse them of what they thought 618 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: was happening, even this early on, right, it could still 619 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 1: be a mistake. So they did publish these publicly, you know, 620 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: they said that, you know, here's here's you know what 621 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 1: we found. And this got the attention of the e 622 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: p A here in the United States and unwanted attention. 623 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:12,800 Speaker 1: Unwanted attention. Yes, the United States Environmental Protection Agency. In September, 624 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 1: they issue a notice of violation of what's called the 625 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,720 Speaker 1: Clean Air Act to Volkswagen, to the Volkswagen Group, and 626 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 1: they're the ones who levy the first accusation. They say, Voldswagen, 627 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:33,240 Speaker 1: you have intentionally programmed diesel engines to cheat on these tests, 628 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: to activate emission controls during lab tests, that which which 629 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 1: affects the output of the oxides that Scott you and 630 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:47,919 Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier to meet these testing standards. Just while 631 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 1: they're in the bay. They're giving them a chance, though, 632 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 1: they're saying, here's what we found. What's your explanation for 633 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,399 Speaker 1: why it's happening, you know, tell us what happened? Is 634 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: is it a mistake? Is this Is this a genuine 635 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: mistake because this is not the you know, the real 636 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 1: world situation that we're finding with your vehicles. You know, 637 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,880 Speaker 1: in a in a test situation, it's one thing. In 638 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: the real world, it's something completely different. Tell us what's 639 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 1: happening here. You know, we want to talk to the 640 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 1: engineers that that helped work on this. Oh boy, yeah, 641 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 1: that's uh, that's someone you don't want to have knocking 642 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: on your door as the E p A when you 643 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 1: are in charge of you know, the diesel engine program. 644 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: We'll talk about some of the people that were involved 645 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: in this later. I mean, there's a few people that 646 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 1: wind up in the fall out of this whole thing. 647 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 1: But um, so the timing of this is is interesting 648 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 1: because you would think that Volkswagen, now they denied this 649 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 1: right up to the very end. I mean, it really 650 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 1: did put it off, and you would think they would 651 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: just say, hey, you caught us, you know, like I mean, 652 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,400 Speaker 1: I don't know, my bad situation, I don't you know 653 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 1: what I don't know? I mean, which one would have 654 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 1: been better, because here's what happened. They the e PA 655 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 1: gave them a chance. They said, we're telling you right 656 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 1: now that these cars are not CARB not e p 657 00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: A uh certified. They're they're not satisfying our standards, So 658 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 1: why don't you tell us what you're going to do 659 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 1: to check change this? So for a year, right, for 660 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 1: a year, they say, technical glitches, technical difficulties, we're working 661 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: on it, right. And the CEO at the time was 662 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 1: a fellow named Martin winter Corn. And they kept this 663 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 1: line up, They doubled down, they committed to the bit 664 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 1: as you would say in comedy, and they did a 665 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,879 Speaker 1: They did their best impression of a company that wasn't 666 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 1: committing crimes. Yeah. So in September again we're still in 667 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 1: September of the e p A threatened to not certify 668 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:39,399 Speaker 1: any of the diesel engines that Volkswagen was going to sell. 669 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: So they said, um, you know, what are you gonna do. 670 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 1: I mean, we're not going to we're gonna allow you 671 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,439 Speaker 1: to sell these cars the United States. You're gonna lose 672 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 1: out on hundreds of thousands of sales. Volkswagen finally responds 673 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: to the e p A not to the public, but 674 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 1: to the e p A by admitting that the software 675 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,800 Speaker 1: was programmed to cheat testing. Now, this is September three, 676 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 1: by September eighteen now, so that's fifteen days later, So 677 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 1: they had more than two weeks for Volkswagen to come 678 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:07,759 Speaker 1: out with a statement, you know whatever, they whatever they 679 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 1: wanted to say, and to kind of you know, gloss 680 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 1: this thing over. They didn't do it. The e p 681 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,360 Speaker 1: A actually comes out the there's a public service announcement 682 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 1: from the e p A that orders the recall of 683 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,319 Speaker 1: all two thousand nine through two thousand fifteen cars that 684 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 1: are equipped with this this t d I engine here 685 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:27,280 Speaker 1: in the United States. And it wasn't until the twenty September, 686 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 1: so two days after the ep announces this that Volkswagen 687 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: finally admits this deception and issues a public apology. So 688 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 1: they were giving practically a month. We're talking about practically 689 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 1: of a month where Volkswagen could have come out on 690 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,279 Speaker 1: the early side of this. I think they were kind 691 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,880 Speaker 1: of calling the e p AS bluff. I think almost like, 692 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 1: you know, are they gonna say anything? Are they not 693 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 1: going to do it? I'm sure that they were telling 694 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: them that they were going to um I don't know, 695 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 1: it's just a confusing time. Right around September of so 696 00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 1: Well'kswagen CEO Martin winter corn As I personally am deeply 697 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 1: sorry that we've broken the trust of our customers and 698 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: the public. And he was in charge from two thousand 699 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,880 Speaker 1: eight to ten, when I believe he resigned, so throughout 700 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:13,879 Speaker 1: the whole thing. Really yeah, yeah, it was his ship 701 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 1: well production, I guess throughout the production of Hole. He 702 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,879 Speaker 1: called it the terrible mistakes of a few people. Right, 703 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,240 Speaker 1: oh boy, right right? Okay, yeah, but you know what, Okay, 704 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: So this is another big question is is who knew? 705 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,320 Speaker 1: You know, how far up the chain did they notify 706 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: somebody that this is happening? Did he really know? Did 707 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:33,839 Speaker 1: he not know? Uh? You know, that's that's another thing, 708 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 1: is that it was a secret that was kept from him. 709 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 1: You're like, hey, Winter corn we've got some some fantastic news. 710 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: Our our t d I diesels are are diesel engines 711 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,920 Speaker 1: rather our certified the United States, and we got all 712 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 1: the performance we wanted to and we got the mileage 713 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,279 Speaker 1: that we wanted And did he just clap twice and 714 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: say great job, guys, that's lunch. Yeah, exactly. You don't 715 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 1: think he had any questions, and he followed up questions 716 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,360 Speaker 1: about you know, how that was possible and you know, 717 00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 1: some of the struggles that they had had in the past. So, UM, 718 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 1: I don't know. I I I feel like he did 719 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 1: know something. I mean, I really, I genuinely do. But 720 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,840 Speaker 1: three days later, okay, so we should say that stock 721 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,439 Speaker 1: went down immediately the next day. Third, yeah, he's way 722 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:14,400 Speaker 1: down the very next business day, and Volkswagen was was 723 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:16,680 Speaker 1: said that they were gonna they were gonna spend I 724 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,480 Speaker 1: think it was like seven and a half billion dollars. 725 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 1: I think, uh, to cover the costs of the scandal, like, 726 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 1: you know, for the recall. I guess because at this 727 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: point we're really just talking about a recall. It's nothing more. 728 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,759 Speaker 1: Um I shouldn't say nothing more like I'm downplaying it. 729 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 1: But it's it's huge. This is a great, big recall. 730 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 1: Um winter Corn resigns, he's remember CEO. He resigns just 731 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,320 Speaker 1: three days after the announcement is made to the public, 732 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 1: and so on September he's out and someone brand new 733 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 1: is in. And Volkswagen then just a week later announced 734 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 1: that they were going to refit up to eleven million 735 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,400 Speaker 1: vehicles that were affected by these emissions. Uh you know, 736 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,879 Speaker 1: the uh, the defeat devices, I guess. But but they're 737 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,279 Speaker 1: still doing damage control. We have to interject because their 738 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:07,040 Speaker 1: new CEO is a guy named Matthias Mattheias Mueller, and 739 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 1: he says, Okay, hold on, guys, the software was only 740 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:15,960 Speaker 1: activated in a part of those eleven million cars, So 741 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,720 Speaker 1: it's Max's damage control. But you can't blame people, of course, 742 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 1: that's what they would do. But now other countries are involved, right, sure, 743 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 1: this this has expanded beyond the United States, beyond you know, Germany, 744 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:36,640 Speaker 1: and it's become known as diesel Gait. And one of 745 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:40,319 Speaker 1: the strangest things about this story, Scott, is that it 746 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:45,279 Speaker 1: continues to unfold. So by the time our episode comes out, 747 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 1: there will almost certainly be new developments in the mix. Yeah, yeah, 748 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:54,880 Speaker 1: you know, it's not just the not just the vehicles 749 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:56,960 Speaker 1: that we we've talked about. I mean, there were two 750 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:01,560 Speaker 1: Leader vehicles, there were three Leader vehicles. It encompassed Volkswagen, 751 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,520 Speaker 1: it encompassed Autie. Portia was involved. They have a diesel 752 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,720 Speaker 1: engine as well um in the in their Cayen model, 753 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,759 Speaker 1: so it encompasses a lot of different parts of the 754 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:12,640 Speaker 1: company itself. You know, it's not just the one mark, 755 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,760 Speaker 1: it's not just Volkswagen. It's it's at least three other companies, 756 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:20,399 Speaker 1: um that are being um forced I guess as yeah, 757 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:22,879 Speaker 1: actually forced because they're not gonna do this voluntarily really, 758 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 1: I mean, but they're being forced to to make good 759 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,279 Speaker 1: on this. And there's a couple of programs as they 760 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,520 Speaker 1: set up in you know, in order to make things right. 761 00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:32,719 Speaker 1: So Volkswagon set up what they call the Volkswagen t 762 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:35,759 Speaker 1: d I Goodwill package, and um, you know, there were 763 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,279 Speaker 1: a lot of back and forth emails between dealerships and 764 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 1: and owners I'm sure, and messages, but essentially, um, you 765 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:45,880 Speaker 1: can even go online. You can check your balance, you know, 766 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:47,720 Speaker 1: you under your VN number, you see if your vehicles 767 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:49,319 Speaker 1: affected that type of thing. You know, you search to 768 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:51,520 Speaker 1: make sure yours is one of these, and then you 769 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:53,640 Speaker 1: can check like your they give you a loyalty card. 770 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:55,319 Speaker 1: I think it is one of the things that they do, 771 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 1: uh that they one that is h you know, has 772 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,840 Speaker 1: cash on it, another one is good only at the dealership, 773 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:04,799 Speaker 1: and then I think another one was a there's like 774 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:08,280 Speaker 1: a buyback program where you can trade in your vehicle 775 00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: you can terminate your lease. And you know, there's a 776 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,880 Speaker 1: lot of different variances between UM. You know what happens 777 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:15,760 Speaker 1: based on what vehicle you have and what they allow. 778 00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,120 Speaker 1: And that's a terrible way to describe that. I'm sorry. 779 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 1: If you go onto the site I think it's called UM. 780 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 1: I think it's called VW Diesel info dot com, even 781 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:27,600 Speaker 1: if you don't have one of these, you can kind 782 00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 1: of find out what was made available to the owners 783 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,839 Speaker 1: there right right. And if you do happen to have 784 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 1: a Volkswagen, it is well worth your time to check 785 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:38,880 Speaker 1: if you have it yet, to see whether your vehicle 786 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,799 Speaker 1: was affected by this scandal, by this diesel gate and 787 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,800 Speaker 1: here on stuff they don't want you to know. One 788 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:50,560 Speaker 1: of the things so we often run into is corporate malfeasance, right, 789 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:55,160 Speaker 1: That's what this is. And the questions that we always 790 00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:59,840 Speaker 1: return to our sadly the same, and the primary question 791 00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:02,879 Speaker 1: is always going to be what happens to those responsible? 792 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:07,960 Speaker 1: Are there any consequences for these actions? And to the 793 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:12,799 Speaker 1: average consumer, regardless of which country they reside in. It 794 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:16,880 Speaker 1: often seems that the so called uh, the fat cats, 795 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:22,680 Speaker 1: are the titans of industry rarely have to face the music. Yeah, 796 00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:27,839 Speaker 1: they're not held accountable. They're not held accountable yet in 797 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:33,560 Speaker 1: this case. As legal proceedings continue, we can we can 798 00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:40,160 Speaker 1: tell you that in several instances, people have been personally 799 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:45,840 Speaker 1: convicted or punished for this. Very recently, very recently, Yes, Scott, 800 00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:51,040 Speaker 1: in December of someone actually went to prison. Sure, not 801 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,680 Speaker 1: just someone, uh, six people, Yeah, and in fact one 802 00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,200 Speaker 1: was here from the United States, um, Oliver Schmidt. He 803 00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,560 Speaker 1: was arrested in Florida and that was very recently, that 804 00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:05,200 Speaker 1: was in December. And then there were six other I'm sorry, 805 00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:08,000 Speaker 1: five others I believe. So we're talking about six top 806 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,759 Speaker 1: executives that have gone to jail or prison. This is 807 00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,040 Speaker 1: pretty unusual at this corporation. You know, they've been charged. 808 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:17,799 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that they've actually been sentenced at this point, 809 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,759 Speaker 1: but they've been charged. So folks bun employees that were charged. Uh, 810 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:23,239 Speaker 1: there's Heinz Jacob Nooser, who was he al saw the 811 00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,440 Speaker 1: development of the company's brand. There was YenS Hadler I 812 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,239 Speaker 1: believe that's YenS j. E. N s. YenS Hadler, who 813 00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:33,120 Speaker 1: over oversaw the engine development program. And there's Richard doren Camp, 814 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,960 Speaker 1: who is another supervisor of the engine development, and then 815 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,960 Speaker 1: there was Bernard Gottwis who helped oversee the quality management. 816 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,920 Speaker 1: And then there's Urgen Peter, who is a liaison between 817 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:46,680 Speaker 1: regulatory agencies and the carmaker themselves. So, uh, these are 818 00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,279 Speaker 1: top executives. They're they're the top of the game here, 819 00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,680 Speaker 1: and they're being held accountable for what happened. And h 820 00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,840 Speaker 1: you know, this is a lot of people say, well, finally, finally, 821 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:57,799 Speaker 1: you know, we're reading some justice out of this, because, 822 00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,000 Speaker 1: as you said, a lot of times something like this happened, 823 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:04,359 Speaker 1: and you don't hear of anybody really um taking taking um, 824 00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:07,560 Speaker 1: I guess taking responsibility for this. They're not taking charge 825 00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,279 Speaker 1: of the situation saying yeah that was my decision. Let 826 00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:14,160 Speaker 1: me let me clarify the timeline here, because I said 827 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:22,759 Speaker 1: December of seventeen seventeen, that is when m. Schmidt is sentenced, 828 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,600 Speaker 1: So these charges are probably a little bit earlier, probably 829 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:30,000 Speaker 1: months earlier. Yeah, he was originally looking at a hundred 830 00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:34,720 Speaker 1: and sixty nine years in prison Scott on eleven felony counts. 831 00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:36,799 Speaker 1: So they don't take this lightly, do they. I mean, 832 00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,120 Speaker 1: this is something very serious and and I don't know 833 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:40,840 Speaker 1: if we've even said this number yet. But you know, 834 00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,080 Speaker 1: we've talked, we're thrown around a few numbers of what 835 00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:45,600 Speaker 1: this is going to cost VW right in the end. 836 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,080 Speaker 1: And you know, they were talking early on about per 837 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:50,440 Speaker 1: vehicle charges and I think it was like thirty seven 838 00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:52,520 Speaker 1: They could be fine something like this is just here 839 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:55,759 Speaker 1: in the United States. Thirty seven thousand five dollars per 840 00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,200 Speaker 1: vehicle that they sold in the United States. That's more 841 00:45:58,239 --> 00:45:59,960 Speaker 1: than a lot of those vehicles costs to begin with. 842 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,880 Speaker 1: Brand So it's a it's a healthy fine. I mean, 843 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,000 Speaker 1: it's a very big fine. And they were talking in 844 00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,080 Speaker 1: the billions of dollars, and you know, every day it 845 00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:09,080 Speaker 1: seemed like there was more and more bad news coming up. 846 00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:11,840 Speaker 1: In the end, this whole thing, you know, with with 847 00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,040 Speaker 1: the penalties and everything, Um, they're finding out that this 848 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:17,160 Speaker 1: is going to end up costing the company something like 849 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:23,000 Speaker 1: twenty one billion dollars one billion with a B with 850 00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:25,239 Speaker 1: a B, that's right. And you know, I think there's 851 00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,040 Speaker 1: something like, you know, four point three billion of that 852 00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,839 Speaker 1: isn't just criminal and civil penalties. But then the rest 853 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:33,759 Speaker 1: of that is in what the company has to do, 854 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,880 Speaker 1: you know, either retrofitting the cars, either buying back the 855 00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,640 Speaker 1: cars giving out these these these courtesy cards. I forget 856 00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,160 Speaker 1: what I call them loyalty cards. I think, um, it's 857 00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:44,880 Speaker 1: really really expensive for them. But more than twenty billion 858 00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:46,960 Speaker 1: dollars is what this is going to cost the company. 859 00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:50,799 Speaker 1: And more than that, this has cost this company. Uh, 860 00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,160 Speaker 1: the reputation yea Volkswagen has been if you if you 861 00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:57,680 Speaker 1: paid attention to any of the public announcements recently gone 862 00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,719 Speaker 1: to any of the websites, this has This is something 863 00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:02,399 Speaker 1: that has just cut them to the core. They don't 864 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:04,279 Speaker 1: they don't know what to do because they want to 865 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:06,760 Speaker 1: retain the people that they have already that already believed 866 00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:08,600 Speaker 1: in them. But a lot of those people won't buy 867 00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:12,160 Speaker 1: another Volkswagen. They don't find that they can trust the company. 868 00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,520 Speaker 1: And and that's something that's really hard is to earn 869 00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,120 Speaker 1: that respect back again, which is a which is a 870 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:21,560 Speaker 1: crying shame. Uh. Two points. First, on a personal note, 871 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:28,440 Speaker 1: I really like Volkswagens, and I you know, I'm I'm 872 00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:30,600 Speaker 1: wondering if now would be the time for me to 873 00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:32,799 Speaker 1: grab one, because I bet, I bet I could get 874 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:37,319 Speaker 1: a deal. But the second point is that this this 875 00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:42,120 Speaker 1: huge cost that occurs to Volkswagen should mention also hit 876 00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:46,799 Speaker 1: the individuals who were tried or convicted. So Schmidt was 877 00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:50,440 Speaker 1: facing a hundred sixty nine years in prison eleven felony counts. 878 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:55,000 Speaker 1: For anyone who is confused about why you would hear 879 00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:59,440 Speaker 1: an individual sentence to almost a hundred seventy years in prison, 880 00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:04,000 Speaker 1: we can offer some clarity. That's usually that's often at 881 00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,080 Speaker 1: least to make sure the person actually does go to 882 00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:10,760 Speaker 1: prison and serves some sort of time, not a hundred 883 00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,120 Speaker 1: and sixty nine years really, right, We know that they 884 00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:15,520 Speaker 1: might not all stick, you know, it's just it's helping 885 00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:20,000 Speaker 1: the bar. So he pled guilty and he ended up 886 00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:25,120 Speaker 1: getting a prison term of seven years for his guilty. Please, 887 00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:31,800 Speaker 1: that's still pretty stiff and four thousand dollar fine. Oh boy, wow? Okay, 888 00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:33,799 Speaker 1: well seven years in prison, I mean that's that's not 889 00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:37,640 Speaker 1: an easy sentence to uh to to to take, you know, 890 00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,120 Speaker 1: I mean, if you're you're going from your executive world 891 00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:44,040 Speaker 1: to prison, it's you know, it's gotta be tough, right, 892 00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:49,000 Speaker 1: It's it's it's tough, and it's a consequence of this action. 893 00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:51,080 Speaker 1: And I wonder if the others are going to follow 894 00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:55,319 Speaker 1: suit and have similar sentences, right, right, I know that 895 00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,440 Speaker 1: some other people are getting convicted or have been convicted. 896 00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,320 Speaker 1: The other five I believe over in Germany, somewhere in Europe. 897 00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:02,960 Speaker 1: I'm not sure if it's a in Germany. They might 898 00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:05,080 Speaker 1: be in Spain or you know, somewhere else, but uh yeah, 899 00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:08,680 Speaker 1: they are likely to see similar, similar charges levit against them, 900 00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:15,120 Speaker 1: and there's more fallout. In January of eighteen, it was 901 00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:21,680 Speaker 1: revealed that get this gut, Volkswagen was also using primates 902 00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:28,760 Speaker 1: using monkeys in vehicle emissions experiments. With the stringent testing 903 00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:32,239 Speaker 1: laws that a lot of countries have, this is, if 904 00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:36,239 Speaker 1: not illegal, it's a very bad look. So oh yeah, 905 00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,200 Speaker 1: this is this is not looking good on the face 906 00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:41,800 Speaker 1: of it at all. They did this in they had 907 00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:47,279 Speaker 1: four hour long experiments where they locked Java monkeys, ten 908 00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:52,279 Speaker 1: Java monkeys in these tiny rooms, filled them with emissions 909 00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:54,840 Speaker 1: to see, you know, like, well would happen. That's awful, 910 00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:57,319 Speaker 1: isn't it. I hate to hear about stuff like this, 911 00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:59,840 Speaker 1: but but it seems like the bad news just keeps piling. 912 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:01,759 Speaker 1: I'm piling on, like, when when is it all going 913 00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:03,759 Speaker 1: to kind of settle? You know, when is it gonna 914 00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:09,040 Speaker 1: be over? What's the what's the fallout as we're recording 915 00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:12,960 Speaker 1: this today. That is an answer that we can only 916 00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:17,759 Speaker 1: hope to find in the future. But for now, we 917 00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:22,440 Speaker 1: are going to conclude our examination of the real life 918 00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:27,200 Speaker 1: automotive conspiracy, not a conspiracy theory, uh, you know, the 919 00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:30,759 Speaker 1: great Volkswagen cover up. And Scott, I want to thank 920 00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:35,000 Speaker 1: you very much for coming on the show. Now. There 921 00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:38,600 Speaker 1: are a couple of secret projects that you have in 922 00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:41,000 Speaker 1: the works which I don't believe we're I'm looking at 923 00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:44,600 Speaker 1: Paul here. I don't believe we're at liberty to divulge yet. Now. 924 00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:46,680 Speaker 1: I don't think we are not yet, But but I've 925 00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:49,200 Speaker 1: got something that's keep me busy for sure when I'm 926 00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:51,640 Speaker 1: off Mike. Uh yeah, it's something that's gonna be coming 927 00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,960 Speaker 1: out hopefully. Uh you know, let's say Midsummer somewhere around there. 928 00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:58,239 Speaker 1: But I think your listeners will find it interesting. We 929 00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:00,839 Speaker 1: can only tell you that it would really be a 930 00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:05,400 Speaker 1: crime not to tune in. Very clever, Hey, I worked 931 00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,399 Speaker 1: on that earlier. Well, Ben, thanks for having me here today. 932 00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:10,319 Speaker 1: I really appreciate. I always love being on the show. 933 00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:12,759 Speaker 1: Oh and I hope that you know I did the 934 00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:15,600 Speaker 1: topic justice. I know that you know we probably uh 935 00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:17,799 Speaker 1: skirted over some issues that people would like to hear 936 00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:19,360 Speaker 1: a little bit more about. But that's one of the 937 00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:21,960 Speaker 1: fascinating things about the stories that there are so many 938 00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:24,839 Speaker 1: twists and turns and angles to look at this, uh, 939 00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:27,279 Speaker 1: that you know you'd be doing yourself a disservice not 940 00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:30,200 Speaker 1: to deal delve deeper into the story, because what we 941 00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:32,719 Speaker 1: can cover in an hour is just scraping the surface. Really, 942 00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:34,319 Speaker 1: I mean, we're giving you the high points of it, 943 00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:36,960 Speaker 1: but really dig into it and find out what's what's 944 00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:39,280 Speaker 1: going on behind the scenes. And it's fascinating. I would 945 00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:41,960 Speaker 1: I would also call them the low points, I guess. 946 00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:43,680 Speaker 1: So well, thanks again for for letting me be here. 947 00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:47,279 Speaker 1: Oh likewise, yeah, the pleasure is ours, sir. And of 948 00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:51,359 Speaker 1: course Matt and Noels send their regards on that Wow 949 00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:55,880 Speaker 1: you've got you've got a secret Matt Nola on secret missions. 950 00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,680 Speaker 1: God knows what Paul's up to. He's he's shaking his 951 00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:02,400 Speaker 1: head and shrug in here am I am I the 952 00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:05,080 Speaker 1: last one without secrets? Maybe I think you've got your 953 00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:09,200 Speaker 1: own secrets. I am a pretty sketchy individual. But yes, 954 00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:11,960 Speaker 1: thank you Scott, And just as importantly, friends and neighbors, 955 00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:16,000 Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen, thank you for listening. Let us know. 956 00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:20,000 Speaker 1: Do you drive a Voldswagen? Have you been affected by this? 957 00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:24,720 Speaker 1: Do you think that do you think that the legal 958 00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:29,359 Speaker 1: actions taken against this company are appropriate? Do you think 959 00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:34,760 Speaker 1: instead their governments making an example of an auto manufacturer? 960 00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:37,759 Speaker 1: Is it too harsh or not harsh enough? Right? Exactly 961 00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,400 Speaker 1: is there, for lack of a better phrase, is there 962 00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:47,560 Speaker 1: a goldilocks, you know zone with this punishment? And also 963 00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:52,920 Speaker 1: what should this be applied to other companies? You know, 964 00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:57,480 Speaker 1: what are what are other examples of um companies that 965 00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:01,759 Speaker 1: have committed massive fraud like this? And have you know 966 00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:06,960 Speaker 1: and what happened to their leaders at the time? Can 967 00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:10,239 Speaker 1: I add one thing to please? Just curiosity with the 968 00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:12,840 Speaker 1: emissions thing in general? You know, why why is it 969 00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:15,200 Speaker 1: that only in Atlanta, in the state of Georgia we 970 00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:17,480 Speaker 1: have to have emissions when the rest of Georgia doesn't 971 00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:20,440 Speaker 1: have to that Well, I kind of them because I've 972 00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:22,000 Speaker 1: lived in places that you don't have to and then 973 00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:24,200 Speaker 1: across the street you do have to, you know, that 974 00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:26,640 Speaker 1: type of situation. So you know, I'm just curious, like 975 00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:29,200 Speaker 1: what you feel about it on your you know personally, 976 00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:30,799 Speaker 1: you know, what do you think about it, like, do 977 00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:32,480 Speaker 1: your neighbors have to do it but you don't because 978 00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:34,880 Speaker 1: you live across the county line. Yeah, and it's not 979 00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:39,080 Speaker 1: as if the air itself stays within a district, No, exactly. 980 00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:41,719 Speaker 1: So you know, is it is it too arbitrary? I mean, 981 00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:44,240 Speaker 1: should it just be, you know, all encompassing. Should everybody 982 00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:46,000 Speaker 1: have to adhere to the same standards or should we 983 00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:48,359 Speaker 1: just have none? I mean where would that point us? 984 00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:50,840 Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm just fascinated by that whole thing too. 985 00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:53,719 Speaker 1: Let us know. You can find the entire stuff they 986 00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:56,360 Speaker 1: don't want you to know crew on Instagram, on Twitter, 987 00:53:56,719 --> 00:54:00,440 Speaker 1: and on Facebook. You can also write to us directly 988 00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:04,640 Speaker 1: via our email. We are conspiracy at how stuff works 989 00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:24,760 Speaker 1: dot com.