WEBVTT - The Walk of Shame 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:02.160 When I look back on it now, I'm like, I 0:00:02.200 --> 0:00:07.280 put myself in this very dangerous situation on purpose, and 0:00:07.560 --> 0:00:10.800 I think that no regular relationship could even ever be 0:00:10.920 --> 0:00:14.520 that exciting because there was so much risk and danger. 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:17.560 And I mean the danger was to my marriage, and 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:24.360 the danger was to my identity and self respect. This 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:29.560 is she wants more. I'm your host, Joe Piazza. Last week, 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:31.920 we heard from a woman named Nikki about the twelve 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:35.320 years that she's been cheating on her husband. This week, 0:00:35.360 --> 0:00:39.360 we're going to hear from Katie. Katie risked everything in 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:43.120 her life for her affair, and she ended up losing 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:45.360 most of her friends and having to move to a 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:50.000 new city just to escape the fallout. The implication was 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:54.280 that I hopped from person to person and that I 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:58.320 didn't care about people's feelings. People that I thought I 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:01.720 was close with called me like four the names. It 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:05.560 really puts this perspective on like, am I selfish? Do 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:17.639 I not care about others? Extra marital affairs, especially for women, 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:21.959 have never been without risk. In many countries and cultures, 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:26.280 including this one. It has historically been illegal for women 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:29.640 to commit adultery, and through the years, the sentences have 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:34.959 been harsh. Women could either get slut shamed or get 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:41.319 murdered for exercising sexual autonomy and having an affair, or 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:47.160 saying I don't want to be a monogymous. That voice 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:50.960 you heard is Wednesday. Martin Wednesday is a feminist author, 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:54.960 an anthropologist, and a cultural critic. She is also a 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:59.120 woman who loves nothing more than talking about female sexuality 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:02.800 and pleasure. Her book Untrue is a deep dive into 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:09.919 the topic of women and non monogamy. High Wednesday. When 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:14.919 I decided as doing a podcast on women and adultery, 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:17.280 you were the only person I wanted to talk to. 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:21.519 Thank you. I'm very honored because I've been studying this 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:24.880 full time for seven years now, and it's such a 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:30.040 universal topic in many ways, and it's so personal to people, 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:35.880 Like what could be more dishy or delicious or devastating 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:40.079 than affairs? And so many great novels have been written 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:45.440 about affairs, so many great scripted series and movies. It's 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:47.959 almost like it's in our blood. It's in our blood. 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:50.760 I think it is in our DNA that we just 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:53.400 we want to know more, we want to know everything, 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:57.680 and a lot of us who have not had affairs 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:02.200 really want to hear about and from people who have 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:07.760 had affairs or who are non monogamous. When we watch 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:10.600 a scripted series like The Affair, or when we read 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:17.359 Anna Karinina, we get a thrill from watching another woman 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:22.520 have an affair because maybe we secretly really want to, 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:26.639 but it's not an option for us because it's too 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:31.680 dangerous for us physically, or there's too much of a 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:34.480 risk of stigma in our community. I mean, that's something 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:37.600 we want to touch on in this podcast. Can you 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:40.360 talk a little bit about some of the ways that 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:46.520 women are still shamed for their affairs. Yes, most women 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:49.560 do not have the option to be openly non monogamous, 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:51.600 so they kind of have to be on the deal. 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:55.280 This is a culture where we have TikTok's and I 0:03:55.400 --> 0:03:58.600 g reels about women doing what we call the walk 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:02.960 of shame. Right, We really stigmatized female sexuality even when 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:09.280 it's monogamous. So yeah, the reason that so few women 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:13.960 seem to be openly non monogamous is simply because we 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:16.200 don't really give them the option. We make it dangerous. 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:21.960 I mean, I know a lot of feminists who will 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:24.400 make jokes about the walk of shame and I'm like, so, 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:28.279 a woman's being autonomous, and we literally call it the 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:31.640 walk of shame. A woman is walking around in an 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:34.680 outfit that says, yes, I had sex, or we presume 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:38.160 means that I presume. There's a lot of assumption, there's 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:43.159 a lot of storytelling. The walk of shame is just 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:46.279 one classic example of a way we judge women we've 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:50.200 never really thought twice about. When it comes to infidelity, 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:53.560 we judge women way more harshly than we judge met 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:59.760 scholars have looked into this and it gets dark and 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:04.280 Lynn was beheaded. Medieval scholars have found that guilty women 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:08.160 were often expelled from their homes and their heads were shaven. 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:12.800 They were forced to parade through the streets. Yeah, it's 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:16.520 just like that episode of Game of Thrones. Women in 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:22.040 Sudan even today can face death by stoning for adultery, 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:26.279 and in America more recently, women aren't sentenced to death, 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:31.760 but they've definitely been judged more harshly than men. Just 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:35.240 take a look at pop culture. Yoko Ono and John 0:05:35.320 --> 0:05:38.599 Lennon were actually both married when they began their affair, 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:42.080 but it's always been Yoko who has been publicly shamed 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:45.359 and vilified not only as the person who broke up 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:50.000 John's marriage, but as the person who broke up the Beatles. 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:54.760 We are still judging women more harshly than we judgment 0:05:55.839 --> 0:06:01.040 Take Olivia Wilde and Harry Styles. Male directors have always 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:05.119 been having affairs with their actresses and no one says 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:09.159 much about it, whether they're married or not. But when 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:13.760 married director Olivia Wilde allegedly slept with her actor Harry Styles, 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:20.120 it was all we could talk about. Then there's Katie's story. 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:23.960 This story, the one you're about to hear, is a 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:27.880 classic example of a woman being judged more harshly than 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:31.720 a man, and you'll hear all of it. After a 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:44.359 quick break, we're back with she Wants More Now. Before 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:46.640 we get into Katie's affair, we're going to start with 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:50.039 her marriage. Katie fell in love in college when she 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:54.839 was just nineteen of the baby. But you know, I 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:58.040 felt so sure then at that time, you feel like 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:00.600 you kind of own the world and know everythinging we 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:04.040 became adults together, we got our jobs. I was like, Okay, 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:07.359 this is adulthood, and I think I didn't even realize 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:10.880 how much more growing up I had to do. Katy 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:13.720 had grown up in New Jersey, and her dream had 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:17.200 always been to move to California. Her and her husband 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:20.400 fulfilled that dream when they moved to Los Angeles together, 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:24.280 and to save money, they became roommates with Katie's husband's 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:28.480 best friend. This becomes a huge part of the story. 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:31.000 So I asked Katie to tell me just a little 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:35.560 bit more about that. My husband had this really close 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:38.080 high school friend who had an apartment, and he was like, 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:40.880 come moving with me. It'll be great. I'll show you 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:44.040 around the city. And it sure was great, and we 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:48.200 had a wonderful time together. I started exploring new things 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:50.440 about myself in a new city, and I felt kind 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:53.200 of free, and I almost felt like I wasn't married anymore. 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:56.760 And I did a lot of exploring alongside this friend 0:07:56.760 --> 0:07:59.480 of my husband's, and he was kind of guiding us 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:02.960 in this new place. And it took me a really 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:05.680 long time to realize that I was growing very attached 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:09.840 to him, and that I was drawing away from who 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:13.720 I was and developing into someone new, and it didn't 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:18.920 include my husband as much anymore. I asked Katie who 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:22.920 this new person she was turning into actually was. How 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:25.680 was she becoming different than the person that met her 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:29.320 husband at age nineteen. I think there's a lot of 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:33.359 things about my female identity that I was coming into. 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:36.360 I had one idea about myself that I wasn't a 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:40.280 very sexual person. And it's so interesting because I'm not 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:44.160 sure why I developed that idea or how long I 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:46.080 held it, but I just was like, well, I'm not 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:48.640 really interested in sex. I don't feel like exploring in 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:53.040 that arena. And then I started kind of just feeling differently, 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:56.440 like no, maybe I am a sexual person. I just 0:08:56.559 --> 0:09:01.000 haven't explored with different partners, and maybe that's what I need. 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:03.320 And I had a lot of these thoughts and I 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:05.440 didn't know what to do with them, And also, what 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:07.720 the hell does anyone know about sex with our nineteen 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:12.959 years right? Nothing? And just like the relationship, I also 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:16.280 thought that you shouldn't have to try at that either. 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:18.600 I just was like, well, I'm lucky I found this 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:21.040 great partner, he's really nice to me, we have some 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:23.560 things in common, we live in this great city. Why 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:27.280 should I want more? But I did want more? Did 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:31.800 you feel guilty for wanting more? Oh? So guilty? And 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:34.240 I just thought, you know, I have these feelings. I 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:36.880 have these wants and desires, but I can just push 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:39.880 them down because that's just what we're supposed to do 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:43.360 in life. And I think I didn't really start feeling 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:46.600 guilty until I really wanted to act on them. When 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:50.439 I really started being like, oh, I have to do 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.640 something about this, then that's when like the big guilt 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:57.560 set in, and it really changed who I thought I was. 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:00.480 I thought I was a good person and a girl 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:04.480 and someone that was faithful and loyal, and I didn't 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:07.920 know what to do with the desires that went against 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:12.280 these thoughts I had about myself. What were some of 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:17.000 the fantasies that you've started having. I think mostly it 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:21.920 was about like being desired and desiring, and that was 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:24.840 something that I felt like was no longer happening in 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:28.840 my current marriage. And I want to do things that 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:34.760 are scary, and we'll teach me about myself. So Katie 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:38.440 was having all these fantasies about her husband's best friend, 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:44.559 who was also their roommate at the time. Eventually, Katie 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:47.720 and her husband moved into their own place, thank god, 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:54.160 but her feelings didn't go away. We started to push boundaries, 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:56.640 like we would always be sitting next to each other. 0:10:57.040 --> 0:10:59.640 We would hold hands, would put our arms around each other. 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:02.600 We would have like intimate conversations while the rest of 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:05.240 the group of friends, including my husband, were doing other things. 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:08.040 No one seemed to be bothered by this. No one 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:11.240 seemed to notice or care. Has been never brought it up. 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:15.200 But I was starting to feel like this tension building. 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:18.480 So I said to Phil, what are we going to 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:23.280 do about this? Phil is the roommate's name, by the way. 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:26.439 And he said, well, nothing, We're not going to do anything. 0:11:26.880 --> 0:11:31.400 And that seemed safe enough, but it was just growing 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:34.160 and growing. And the next day he called me and 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:36.719 he was just like, you have to come over here, 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:39.040 like I have to see you. And I was like, 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:41.480 I know. And that was kind of just how the 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:46.600 affair started. I can picture that night like it was 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:50.080 a war evening in Santa Monica. I held his hand 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:53.960 when we walked into his apartment and he kissed me, 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:56.800 and that was just like the crossing of the boundary. 0:11:57.320 --> 0:11:59.360 And it was like all the fantasy that I had 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:02.520 made up in my head were coming to fruition. And 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:06.400 I was scared, but it felt so comfortable because I 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:10.720 had built a relationship with this person over basically two years. 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:13.920 When I look back on it now, I'm like, I 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:18.840 put myself in this very dangerous situation on purpose, and 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:22.120 then I just kind of kept escalating the level of 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:25.520 the danger. And I mean the danger was to my marriage, 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:29.360 and the danger was to my identity and self respect. 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:33.680 And it almost felt like a relief to finally have 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:38.120 some kind of actual intimacy with Phil because it had 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:42.000 just been growing and growing and growing. It was all 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:46.560 terribly exciting, and I think that no regular relationship could 0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:49.560 even ever be that exciting because there was so much 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:54.200 risk and danger. Right when you say regular relationship, you 0:12:54.240 --> 0:13:00.560 mean something that's not unfair. Yes, the regulars, the normal, 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:02.959 just the regulars that are like going on normal dates 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:05.760 and they're both single life. What do you think made 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:09.000 it sexier just because it felt forbidden, It felt like 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:13.880 what we assumed to be bad. I think so. And 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:17.080 I think it also because it challenged who and what 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:19.960 I thought I was, So that kind of felt dangerous, 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:22.240 and I, you know, I have like some kind of 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:26.840 excitement desire living on the edge thing in me. I 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:29.880 was a competitive gymnast growing up, and that's a pretty scary, 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:33.760 dangerous sport. And like even things like surfing. I like 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:37.560 these risks that push the boundaries of what you're comfortable with. 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:41.200 It was definitely like a high. I mean, I know 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:44.400 love can be such a high, and it's just a 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:49.240 really interesting phenomenon. You feel like you're not in control 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:54.040 and there's just this other worldliness to the situation. Was 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:57.680 it living up to the fantasies? Yes? I think it 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:02.120 lived up to the fantasies in that I felt so 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:05.880 excited and desired and full of desire in a way 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:10.240 that I never had before. I mean when I started 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:13.120 my relationship when I was nineteen, we had that for 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:16.360 a little period of time, but it's I was so 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:20.760 immature then and so uncertain in my own body, and 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:23.720 so I think that being twenty nine and feeling that 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:27.680 was entirely different. And we also were just very connected 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:30.520 and we knew each other very well, so it was 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:34.480 really really passionate and exciting, and like we just wanted 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:38.240 to be, you know, intertwined at all times and couldn't 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:41.680 stop thinking about each other, and when we were near 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:44.480 each other, we were just like all over each other. 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:46.320 I Mean, if I saw people on the street acting 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:48.320 this way, I would just feel like, what is wrong 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:54.280 with those people. Yeah, like, no one wants to see that, 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:58.480 but feeling it is a really interesting experience. And then 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:02.760 I also think that as soon as our affair started, 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:05.200 I knew that we were actually in love with each other. 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:09.040 And that was when I started to kind of break 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:12.760 down because I realized what that meant. And so it 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:15.280 was really exciting and fun for a couple of weeks, 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:19.960 and then it was fairly devastating because it was real 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:24.680 and I knew that it was gonna uproot my life 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:29.400 and change who I was. And then I started being 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:33.680 kind of honest about it and being like, I'm going 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:36.400 to see Phil and my husband would say, okay, have 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:39.720 a fun afternoon, and he just wouldn't ask what was 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:44.520 going on. Her husband was oblivious. He thought that Katie 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:47.720 was just hanging out with a mutual friend. But eventually 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:51.040 Katie felt so guilty that she had no choice but 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:54.320 to come clean. And a couple of weeks like that, 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:57.240 and I started saying things to him like I'm having 0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:03.000 a problem. I'm having really big feelings for your friend 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:05.680 and I don't know what to do about it, and 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:08.440 he was kind of like, well, we'll get through this. 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:11.080 Do you want to go to therapy, and I was like, sure, 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:15.680 but there was a huge level of denial from his part. 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:18.920 And I also think he just trusted me so much 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:21.000 and he thought I was a good person that would 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:28.120 never betray him. Katie couldn't imagine ending things with her husband. 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:31.280 It just seemed like something so out of the realm 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:37.120 of possibility. I had to hurt someone I loved, and 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:40.320 I had to hurt myself, and I didn't want our 0:16:40.360 --> 0:16:43.200 time together to be over. He was my best friend 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:45.960 and I had been through my whole twenties with him, 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:49.360 and he held my hand while my father was dying. 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:52.160 The last thing I wanted to do was hurt this person. 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:55.640 And so then it really puts this perspective on like 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:58.560 am I selfish? Am I just going after what I 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:03.560 want in this life recklessly? And then I just got 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:07.520 to a point where I started definitely lying. I was 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:11.000 making up places that I was and I was kind 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:15.040 of withdrawing, and it was getting very hard for me 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:20.560 to be around him. Interestingly, in the beginning, maybe like 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:23.439 the first two months, my sex life with my husband 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:27.199 got way better, and I reflect on that and it 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:30.760 was almost like I found my sexuality. And then it 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:34.719 could be applied to other situations as well. Tell me 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:41.080 everything about that. I just felt more confident, more sexual, 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:45.080 And I think it was probably very confusing because in 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:47.639 one hand, I was kind of out all the time 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:50.439 and constantly going to see his friend. But on the 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:52.400 other hand, like our sex was better than it had 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:55.080 been in years, and I felt like I wanted to 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:57.280 have sex with him again, which I hadn't in a 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:01.560 few years. It was as if it like enlivened my 0:18:01.720 --> 0:18:04.679 whole sexual being, and there was a part of me 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:07.760 that at that time desperately wished I could just be 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:11.159 in a relationship with both of them, which obviously was 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:16.160 not realistic. Wow, So I would it have actually worked 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:18.400 if you could have had both men in your life 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:21.639 at once? Don't there's any situation, any scenario where that 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:25.080 could have happened. I mean, like I think it would 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:26.879 have worked for me. I don't think it would have 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:30.000 worked for either of them. Um. I mean what happened 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:32.760 for me to leave him is he gave me an ultimatum. 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:35.679 He said, you need to not see Phil anymore, Like 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:38.359 I just don't see him anymore and then we'll be fine. 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:42.679 And I said, I'm so sorry. I don't want our 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:44.919 marriage to be over, and I don't want to lose you, 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:48.280 but I can't do that. And I wished deeply that 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:51.239 I could have made a different decision. It wasn't the 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:54.639 decision that I wanted to make necessarily, like if I 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:57.840 had put a pros and cons list, But I felt 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:01.159 I couldn't not see Phil anymore because we were just 0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:04.119 passionately in love and obsessed with each other, and it 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:08.240 just I would have been depressed and sad and yeah, 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:11.760 so you know, I think maybe if we had been older, 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:14.160 if we had had kids, like I wonder how much 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:18.400 that would have changed my decision in that situation. But 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:21.840 as it was, I couldn't do it. And so he said, Okay, 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:24.280 then then it's over. I never want to see you again. 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:28.040 And that was awful. So he took the hard line, 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:31.760 he said, I never want to see you again. Yeah. Wow, 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:36.080 how did that fail? Oh? It broke my heart. I 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:41.880 mean I I was fully broken hearted. Katie moved out 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:44.639 of the apartment that she shared with her husband. She 0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:49.439 moved in with Phil. She cried and cried for weeks, 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:53.240 and after a couple of weeks, she ended up getting 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:57.760 into this accident that she was convinced she completely deserved 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:01.600 because of everything that she had done. I broke both 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:04.720 of my feet in a random accident jumping into a pool, 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:08.359 and so then I was just fully broken. I felt 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:11.359 like it was what I deserved, and I felt like 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:15.119 it was appropriate to literally not be able to stand 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:18.359 on my own two feet and also like figuratively to 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:22.440 feel that I had dissolved as a person. Um it 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:25.320 was like my rock bottom and took me years to 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:28.919 kind of rise back up into owning who I am 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:37.439 and what I am and understanding myself again. Choosing Phil 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:41.920 cost Katie everything. Both Phil and I lost friends. We 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:46.639 were super judged. You know, people people that I thought 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:49.639 I was close with called me like horrible names and 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:55.720 just you know, the implication was that I just like 0:20:55.840 --> 0:20:59.160 hopped from person to person and that I didn't care 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:04.399 about people's feelings. And also that, um so, you know, 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:07.600 because when I broke my feet, I couldn't coach gymnastics. 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:10.280 So then Phil was like taking care of me physically 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:13.000 and financially. So there was like a lot of mean 0:21:13.080 --> 0:21:16.080 money words too, like that I was like that I 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:19.800 used people, and you know that I that men took 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:22.080 care of me and like these things that made me 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:26.760 just feel really horrible about my female identity. And I 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:31.960 think that some people thought that I wasn't like thinking clearly, 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:35.240 like that Phil had cast some kind of spell on 0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:39.240 me and I was just being dragged around and it 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:42.919 wasn't really my decision, and that also felt bad, and 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:47.439 ultimately I ended up leaving Los Angeles because it just 0:21:47.560 --> 0:21:51.280 felt too negative, and I had coworkers that had been 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:53.199 part of our group of friends that didn't want to 0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:57.080 talk to me anymore. We just felt really like none 0:21:57.080 --> 0:21:59.560 of our friends would see us anymore because they all 0:21:59.720 --> 0:22:02.480 show was the other side the hurt party, which I 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:05.080 understood and I didn't hold it against them, but it 0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:07.720 felt really negative, and I ended up taking a job 0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:10.200 in San Francisco as soon as I could walk again. 0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:15.199 Doing The fallout was as bad for Phil was it 0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:17.840 was for you. I think a lot of the times 0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:23.240 women get judged more harshly, but in this scenario, because 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:26.040 he had been friends with my ex husband for so 0:22:26.080 --> 0:22:29.320 many years, they had like this larger network of high 0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:33.640 school buddies that pretty much all stopped speaking to Phil, 0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:37.199 and that was really hard for him and sad. They 0:22:37.240 --> 0:22:39.159 kind of just saw him as someone that came in 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:41.879 and stole someone else's wife, and they would, you know, like, 0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:44.000 why why didn't you get your own girlfriend? Why do 0:22:44.040 --> 0:22:46.960 you have to steal somebody else's wife, that sort of thing. 0:22:47.040 --> 0:22:51.920 So I do feel like it was equally harsh and judgmental. However, 0:22:52.119 --> 0:22:55.600 I think that people were more surprised about me. They 0:22:55.600 --> 0:23:00.720 were kind of shocked, whereas to him they were like, oh, yeah, happens. 0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:03.000 Why do you Why do you think people were more 0:23:03.000 --> 0:23:06.040 shocked about you because you were the married woman. I mean, 0:23:06.040 --> 0:23:07.720 I think just because I'm a woman, I'm a woman 0:23:07.760 --> 0:23:10.239 who is a nice person and people consider me, you know, 0:23:10.880 --> 0:23:12.560 I'm nice to people that I don't try to hurt 0:23:12.560 --> 0:23:16.879 people's feelings, like I tried to be a positive human being. 0:23:17.119 --> 0:23:20.400 And yeah, I think that just like be it being 0:23:20.520 --> 0:23:23.560 good and nice and married, and a woman doesn't like 0:23:23.640 --> 0:23:27.960 equate with you know, passionately falling in love or leaving 0:23:27.960 --> 0:23:32.080 your husband or things like that. I started to think 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:35.840 about the way that Katie was judged, the shock of 0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:40.240 it all, compared to the way philm was judged, which was, hey, 0:23:40.400 --> 0:23:45.720 you're an asshole, but we'll get over. And I wonder 0:23:45.760 --> 0:23:49.600 if it's because we expect this kind of behavior from them. 0:23:49.600 --> 0:23:52.960 Maybe maybe not. But one thing I think we do 0:23:53.240 --> 0:23:57.320 have to acknowledge is that women have the same desires 0:23:57.760 --> 0:24:01.879 for sex, for passion, and for fulfillment as dudes do. 0:24:02.720 --> 0:24:08.679 Despite what society may have historically told us. We have 0:24:08.840 --> 0:24:13.560 listened to all this hogwash science for decades, even centuries 0:24:13.840 --> 0:24:17.240 that tell us that men are more naturally sexual than women. 0:24:17.640 --> 0:24:22.280 What do we know based on more recent sex research data. 0:24:22.640 --> 0:24:26.800 We know that women and men's libidos are very closely matched. 0:24:27.160 --> 0:24:31.560 That's Wednesday again. If we look at data across many countries, 0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:37.640 what we find consistently is that in long term, exclusive 0:24:38.040 --> 0:24:45.680 cohabiting relationships, women get bored of monogamous sex with their 0:24:45.760 --> 0:24:48.960 long term partner they're living with more quickly than men do. 0:24:50.160 --> 0:24:54.600 On average, a woman who is living with her male 0:24:55.320 --> 0:25:01.119 long term partner in an exclusive arrangement will experience a 0:25:01.160 --> 0:25:04.880 steep drop and desire in years one to four, whereas 0:25:04.880 --> 0:25:08.560 a man's desire will add more slowly over nine to 0:25:08.640 --> 0:25:15.199 twelve years. It has to do with evolutionary biology. It 0:25:15.280 --> 0:25:18.480 has to do with the fact that in our evolutionary prehistory, 0:25:18.720 --> 0:25:24.600 having multiple partners was really advantageous. For female hominence and women, 0:25:25.440 --> 0:25:31.000 and it was disadvantageous for male hominence and men. And 0:25:31.080 --> 0:25:34.480