1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:02,160 Speaker 1: When I look back on it now, I'm like, I 2 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 1: put myself in this very dangerous situation on purpose, and 3 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 1: I think that no regular relationship could even ever be 4 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: that exciting because there was so much risk and danger. 5 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: And I mean the danger was to my marriage, and 6 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: the danger was to my identity and self respect. This 7 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: is she wants more. I'm your host, Joe Piazza. Last week, 8 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: we heard from a woman named Nikki about the twelve 9 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: years that she's been cheating on her husband. This week, 10 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: we're going to hear from Katie. Katie risked everything in 11 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: her life for her affair, and she ended up losing 12 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: most of her friends and having to move to a 13 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: new city just to escape the fallout. The implication was 14 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: that I hopped from person to person and that I 15 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: didn't care about people's feelings. People that I thought I 16 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: was close with called me like four the names. It 17 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: really puts this perspective on like, am I selfish? Do 18 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:17,639 Speaker 1: I not care about others? Extra marital affairs, especially for women, 19 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: have never been without risk. In many countries and cultures, 20 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: including this one. It has historically been illegal for women 21 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: to commit adultery, and through the years, the sentences have 22 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 1: been harsh. Women could either get slut shamed or get 23 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: murdered for exercising sexual autonomy and having an affair, or 24 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: saying I don't want to be a monogymous. That voice 25 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: you heard is Wednesday. Martin Wednesday is a feminist author, 26 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: an anthropologist, and a cultural critic. She is also a 27 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: woman who loves nothing more than talking about female sexuality 28 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: and pleasure. Her book Untrue is a deep dive into 29 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 1: the topic of women and non monogamy. High Wednesday. When 30 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 1: I decided as doing a podcast on women and adultery, 31 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: you were the only person I wanted to talk to. 32 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,519 Speaker 1: Thank you. I'm very honored because I've been studying this 33 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: full time for seven years now, and it's such a 34 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: universal topic in many ways, and it's so personal to people, 35 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: Like what could be more dishy or delicious or devastating 36 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 1: than affairs? And so many great novels have been written 37 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: about affairs, so many great scripted series and movies. It's 38 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:47,959 Speaker 1: almost like it's in our blood. It's in our blood. 39 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: I think it is in our DNA that we just 40 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 1: we want to know more, we want to know everything, 41 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: and a lot of us who have not had affairs 42 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: really want to hear about and from people who have 43 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: had affairs or who are non monogamous. When we watch 44 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: a scripted series like The Affair, or when we read 45 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 1: Anna Karinina, we get a thrill from watching another woman 46 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: have an affair because maybe we secretly really want to, 47 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,639 Speaker 1: but it's not an option for us because it's too 48 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: dangerous for us physically, or there's too much of a 49 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: risk of stigma in our community. I mean, that's something 50 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: we want to touch on in this podcast. Can you 51 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about some of the ways that 52 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: women are still shamed for their affairs. Yes, most women 53 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: do not have the option to be openly non monogamous, 54 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: so they kind of have to be on the deal. 55 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: This is a culture where we have TikTok's and I 56 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: g reels about women doing what we call the walk 57 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: of shame. Right, We really stigmatized female sexuality even when 58 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: it's monogamous. So yeah, the reason that so few women 59 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: seem to be openly non monogamous is simply because we 60 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: don't really give them the option. We make it dangerous. 61 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I know a lot of feminists who will 62 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: make jokes about the walk of shame and I'm like, so, 63 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 1: a woman's being autonomous, and we literally call it the 64 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: walk of shame. A woman is walking around in an 65 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: outfit that says, yes, I had sex, or we presume 66 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 1: means that I presume. There's a lot of assumption, there's 67 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 1: a lot of storytelling. The walk of shame is just 68 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 1: one classic example of a way we judge women we've 69 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: never really thought twice about. When it comes to infidelity, 70 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: we judge women way more harshly than we judge met 71 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: scholars have looked into this and it gets dark and 72 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 1: Lynn was beheaded. Medieval scholars have found that guilty women 73 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 1: were often expelled from their homes and their heads were shaven. 74 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: They were forced to parade through the streets. Yeah, it's 75 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: just like that episode of Game of Thrones. Women in 76 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 1: Sudan even today can face death by stoning for adultery, 77 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 1: and in America more recently, women aren't sentenced to death, 78 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: but they've definitely been judged more harshly than men. Just 79 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: take a look at pop culture. Yoko Ono and John 80 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 1: Lennon were actually both married when they began their affair, 81 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: but it's always been Yoko who has been publicly shamed 82 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,359 Speaker 1: and vilified not only as the person who broke up 83 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: John's marriage, but as the person who broke up the Beatles. 84 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: We are still judging women more harshly than we judgment 85 00:05:55,839 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: Take Olivia Wilde and Harry Styles. Male directors have always 86 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:05,119 Speaker 1: been having affairs with their actresses and no one says 87 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 1: much about it, whether they're married or not. But when 88 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: married director Olivia Wilde allegedly slept with her actor Harry Styles, 89 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: it was all we could talk about. Then there's Katie's story. 90 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: This story, the one you're about to hear, is a 91 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: classic example of a woman being judged more harshly than 92 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,720 Speaker 1: a man, and you'll hear all of it. After a 93 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:44,359 Speaker 1: quick break, we're back with she Wants More Now. Before 94 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: we get into Katie's affair, we're going to start with 95 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,039 Speaker 1: her marriage. Katie fell in love in college when she 96 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: was just nineteen of the baby. But you know, I 97 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: felt so sure then at that time, you feel like 98 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 1: you kind of own the world and know everythinging we 99 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 1: became adults together, we got our jobs. I was like, Okay, 100 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,359 Speaker 1: this is adulthood, and I think I didn't even realize 101 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: how much more growing up I had to do. Katy 102 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: had grown up in New Jersey, and her dream had 103 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: always been to move to California. Her and her husband 104 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: fulfilled that dream when they moved to Los Angeles together, 105 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: and to save money, they became roommates with Katie's husband's 106 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: best friend. This becomes a huge part of the story. 107 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: So I asked Katie to tell me just a little 108 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: bit more about that. My husband had this really close 109 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: high school friend who had an apartment, and he was like, 110 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: come moving with me. It'll be great. I'll show you 111 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: around the city. And it sure was great, and we 112 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: had a wonderful time together. I started exploring new things 113 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: about myself in a new city, and I felt kind 114 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: of free, and I almost felt like I wasn't married anymore. 115 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: And I did a lot of exploring alongside this friend 116 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: of my husband's, and he was kind of guiding us 117 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: in this new place. And it took me a really 118 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: long time to realize that I was growing very attached 119 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: to him, and that I was drawing away from who 120 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: I was and developing into someone new, and it didn't 121 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: include my husband as much anymore. I asked Katie who 122 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: this new person she was turning into actually was. How 123 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: was she becoming different than the person that met her 124 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: husband at age nineteen. I think there's a lot of 125 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:33,359 Speaker 1: things about my female identity that I was coming into. 126 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: I had one idea about myself that I wasn't a 127 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: very sexual person. And it's so interesting because I'm not 128 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: sure why I developed that idea or how long I 129 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 1: held it, but I just was like, well, I'm not 130 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: really interested in sex. I don't feel like exploring in 131 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: that arena. And then I started kind of just feeling differently, 132 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 1: like no, maybe I am a sexual person. I just 133 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: haven't explored with different partners, and maybe that's what I need. 134 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: And I had a lot of these thoughts and I 135 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: didn't know what to do with them, And also, what 136 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: the hell does anyone know about sex with our nineteen 137 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:12,959 Speaker 1: years right? Nothing? And just like the relationship, I also 138 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: thought that you shouldn't have to try at that either. 139 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: I just was like, well, I'm lucky I found this 140 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: great partner, he's really nice to me, we have some 141 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: things in common, we live in this great city. Why 142 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: should I want more? But I did want more? Did 143 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: you feel guilty for wanting more? Oh? So guilty? And 144 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: I just thought, you know, I have these feelings. I 145 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: have these wants and desires, but I can just push 146 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: them down because that's just what we're supposed to do 147 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: in life. And I think I didn't really start feeling 148 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: guilty until I really wanted to act on them. When 149 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,439 Speaker 1: I really started being like, oh, I have to do 150 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: something about this, then that's when like the big guilt 151 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: set in, and it really changed who I thought I was. 152 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: I thought I was a good person and a girl 153 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: and someone that was faithful and loyal, and I didn't 154 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: know what to do with the desires that went against 155 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: these thoughts I had about myself. What were some of 156 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: the fantasies that you've started having. I think mostly it 157 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: was about like being desired and desiring, and that was 158 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: something that I felt like was no longer happening in 159 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: my current marriage. And I want to do things that 160 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: are scary, and we'll teach me about myself. So Katie 161 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: was having all these fantasies about her husband's best friend, 162 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:44,559 Speaker 1: who was also their roommate at the time. Eventually, Katie 163 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 1: and her husband moved into their own place, thank god, 164 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: but her feelings didn't go away. We started to push boundaries, 165 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: like we would always be sitting next to each other. 166 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: We would hold hands, would put our arms around each other. 167 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: We would have like intimate conversations while the rest of 168 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: the group of friends, including my husband, were doing other things. 169 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: No one seemed to be bothered by this. No one 170 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: seemed to notice or care. Has been never brought it up. 171 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: But I was starting to feel like this tension building. 172 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: So I said to Phil, what are we going to 173 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: do about this? Phil is the roommate's name, by the way. 174 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,439 Speaker 1: And he said, well, nothing, We're not going to do anything. 175 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: And that seemed safe enough, but it was just growing 176 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: and growing. And the next day he called me and 177 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,719 Speaker 1: he was just like, you have to come over here, 178 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: like I have to see you. And I was like, 179 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: I know. And that was kind of just how the 180 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: affair started. I can picture that night like it was 181 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: a war evening in Santa Monica. I held his hand 182 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 1: when we walked into his apartment and he kissed me, 183 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: and that was just like the crossing of the boundary. 184 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: And it was like all the fantasy that I had 185 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: made up in my head were coming to fruition. And 186 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 1: I was scared, but it felt so comfortable because I 187 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: had built a relationship with this person over basically two years. 188 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: When I look back on it now, I'm like, I 189 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: put myself in this very dangerous situation on purpose, and 190 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: then I just kind of kept escalating the level of 191 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: the danger. And I mean the danger was to my marriage, 192 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: and the danger was to my identity and self respect. 193 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 1: And it almost felt like a relief to finally have 194 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: some kind of actual intimacy with Phil because it had 195 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: just been growing and growing and growing. It was all 196 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 1: terribly exciting, and I think that no regular relationship could 197 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: even ever be that exciting because there was so much 198 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: risk and danger. Right when you say regular relationship, you 199 00:12:54,240 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 1: mean something that's not unfair. Yes, the regulars, the normal, 200 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 1: just the regulars that are like going on normal dates 201 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: and they're both single life. What do you think made 202 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: it sexier just because it felt forbidden, It felt like 203 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: what we assumed to be bad. I think so. And 204 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: I think it also because it challenged who and what 205 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 1: I thought I was, So that kind of felt dangerous, 206 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: and I, you know, I have like some kind of 207 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 1: excitement desire living on the edge thing in me. I 208 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: was a competitive gymnast growing up, and that's a pretty scary, 209 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: dangerous sport. And like even things like surfing. I like 210 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 1: these risks that push the boundaries of what you're comfortable with. 211 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 1: It was definitely like a high. I mean, I know 212 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: love can be such a high, and it's just a 213 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: really interesting phenomenon. You feel like you're not in control 214 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: and there's just this other worldliness to the situation. Was 215 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 1: it living up to the fantasies? Yes? I think it 216 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: lived up to the fantasies in that I felt so 217 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: excited and desired and full of desire in a way 218 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: that I never had before. I mean when I started 219 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: my relationship when I was nineteen, we had that for 220 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: a little period of time, but it's I was so 221 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: immature then and so uncertain in my own body, and 222 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: so I think that being twenty nine and feeling that 223 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: was entirely different. And we also were just very connected 224 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: and we knew each other very well, so it was 225 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: really really passionate and exciting, and like we just wanted 226 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: to be, you know, intertwined at all times and couldn't 227 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: stop thinking about each other, and when we were near 228 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: each other, we were just like all over each other. 229 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: I Mean, if I saw people on the street acting 230 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: this way, I would just feel like, what is wrong 231 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: with those people. Yeah, like, no one wants to see that, 232 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: but feeling it is a really interesting experience. And then 233 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: I also think that as soon as our affair started, 234 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: I knew that we were actually in love with each other. 235 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 1: And that was when I started to kind of break 236 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: down because I realized what that meant. And so it 237 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: was really exciting and fun for a couple of weeks, 238 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: and then it was fairly devastating because it was real 239 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 1: and I knew that it was gonna uproot my life 240 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: and change who I was. And then I started being 241 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: kind of honest about it and being like, I'm going 242 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: to see Phil and my husband would say, okay, have 243 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: a fun afternoon, and he just wouldn't ask what was 244 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: going on. Her husband was oblivious. He thought that Katie 245 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: was just hanging out with a mutual friend. But eventually 246 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: Katie felt so guilty that she had no choice but 247 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: to come clean. And a couple of weeks like that, 248 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: and I started saying things to him like I'm having 249 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: a problem. I'm having really big feelings for your friend 250 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: and I don't know what to do about it, and 251 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: he was kind of like, well, we'll get through this. 252 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: Do you want to go to therapy, and I was like, sure, 253 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: but there was a huge level of denial from his part. 254 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: And I also think he just trusted me so much 255 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: and he thought I was a good person that would 256 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: never betray him. Katie couldn't imagine ending things with her husband. 257 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: It just seemed like something so out of the realm 258 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: of possibility. I had to hurt someone I loved, and 259 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: I had to hurt myself, and I didn't want our 260 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: time together to be over. He was my best friend 261 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: and I had been through my whole twenties with him, 262 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: and he held my hand while my father was dying. 263 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: The last thing I wanted to do was hurt this person. 264 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: And so then it really puts this perspective on like 265 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: am I selfish? Am I just going after what I 266 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: want in this life recklessly? And then I just got 267 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: to a point where I started definitely lying. I was 268 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: making up places that I was and I was kind 269 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: of withdrawing, and it was getting very hard for me 270 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: to be around him. Interestingly, in the beginning, maybe like 271 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,439 Speaker 1: the first two months, my sex life with my husband 272 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 1: got way better, and I reflect on that and it 273 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: was almost like I found my sexuality. And then it 274 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,719 Speaker 1: could be applied to other situations as well. Tell me 275 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: everything about that. I just felt more confident, more sexual, 276 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: And I think it was probably very confusing because in 277 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 1: one hand, I was kind of out all the time 278 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,439 Speaker 1: and constantly going to see his friend. But on the 279 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:52,400 Speaker 1: other hand, like our sex was better than it had 280 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: been in years, and I felt like I wanted to 281 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: have sex with him again, which I hadn't in a 282 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: few years. It was as if it like enlivened my 283 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 1: whole sexual being, and there was a part of me 284 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: that at that time desperately wished I could just be 285 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 1: in a relationship with both of them, which obviously was 286 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 1: not realistic. Wow, So I would it have actually worked 287 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,400 Speaker 1: if you could have had both men in your life 288 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 1: at once? Don't there's any situation, any scenario where that 289 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: could have happened. I mean, like I think it would 290 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 1: have worked for me. I don't think it would have 291 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: worked for either of them. Um. I mean what happened 292 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: for me to leave him is he gave me an ultimatum. 293 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,679 Speaker 1: He said, you need to not see Phil anymore, Like 294 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 1: I just don't see him anymore and then we'll be fine. 295 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 1: And I said, I'm so sorry. I don't want our 296 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 1: marriage to be over, and I don't want to lose you, 297 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: but I can't do that. And I wished deeply that 298 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:51,239 Speaker 1: I could have made a different decision. It wasn't the 299 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 1: decision that I wanted to make necessarily, like if I 300 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: had put a pros and cons list, But I felt 301 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 1: I couldn't not see Phil anymore because we were just 302 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 1: passionately in love and obsessed with each other, and it 303 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: just I would have been depressed and sad and yeah, 304 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: so you know, I think maybe if we had been older, 305 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,160 Speaker 1: if we had had kids, like I wonder how much 306 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:18,400 Speaker 1: that would have changed my decision in that situation. But 307 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: as it was, I couldn't do it. And so he said, Okay, 308 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: then then it's over. I never want to see you again. 309 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: And that was awful. So he took the hard line, 310 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: he said, I never want to see you again. Yeah. Wow, 311 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: how did that fail? Oh? It broke my heart. I 312 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:41,880 Speaker 1: mean I I was fully broken hearted. Katie moved out 313 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 1: of the apartment that she shared with her husband. She 314 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:49,439 Speaker 1: moved in with Phil. She cried and cried for weeks, 315 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: and after a couple of weeks, she ended up getting 316 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: into this accident that she was convinced she completely deserved 317 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: because of everything that she had done. I broke both 318 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: of my feet in a random accident jumping into a pool, 319 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 1: and so then I was just fully broken. I felt 320 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 1: like it was what I deserved, and I felt like 321 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 1: it was appropriate to literally not be able to stand 322 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: on my own two feet and also like figuratively to 323 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 1: feel that I had dissolved as a person. Um it 324 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: was like my rock bottom and took me years to 325 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,919 Speaker 1: kind of rise back up into owning who I am 326 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:37,439 Speaker 1: and what I am and understanding myself again. Choosing Phil 327 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 1: cost Katie everything. Both Phil and I lost friends. We 328 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: were super judged. You know, people people that I thought 329 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 1: I was close with called me like horrible names and 330 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: just you know, the implication was that I just like 331 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 1: hopped from person to person and that I didn't care 332 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 1: about people's feelings. And also that, um so, you know, 333 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: because when I broke my feet, I couldn't coach gymnastics. 334 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: So then Phil was like taking care of me physically 335 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: and financially. So there was like a lot of mean 336 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: money words too, like that I was like that I 337 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: used people, and you know that I that men took 338 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: care of me and like these things that made me 339 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: just feel really horrible about my female identity. And I 340 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: think that some people thought that I wasn't like thinking clearly, 341 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: like that Phil had cast some kind of spell on 342 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 1: me and I was just being dragged around and it 343 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,919 Speaker 1: wasn't really my decision, and that also felt bad, and 344 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,439 Speaker 1: ultimately I ended up leaving Los Angeles because it just 345 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: felt too negative, and I had coworkers that had been 346 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 1: part of our group of friends that didn't want to 347 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: talk to me anymore. We just felt really like none 348 00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: of our friends would see us anymore because they all 349 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: show was the other side the hurt party, which I 350 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: understood and I didn't hold it against them, but it 351 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: felt really negative, and I ended up taking a job 352 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: in San Francisco as soon as I could walk again. 353 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 1: Doing The fallout was as bad for Phil was it 354 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: was for you. I think a lot of the times 355 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: women get judged more harshly, but in this scenario, because 356 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: he had been friends with my ex husband for so 357 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: many years, they had like this larger network of high 358 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:33,640 Speaker 1: school buddies that pretty much all stopped speaking to Phil, 359 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,199 Speaker 1: and that was really hard for him and sad. They 360 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 1: kind of just saw him as someone that came in 361 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 1: and stole someone else's wife, and they would, you know, like, 362 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: why why didn't you get your own girlfriend? Why do 363 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: you have to steal somebody else's wife, that sort of thing. 364 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 1: So I do feel like it was equally harsh and judgmental. However, 365 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: I think that people were more surprised about me. They 366 00:22:55,600 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: were kind of shocked, whereas to him they were like, oh, yeah, happens. 367 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: Why do you Why do you think people were more 368 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: shocked about you because you were the married woman. I mean, 369 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: I think just because I'm a woman, I'm a woman 370 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,239 Speaker 1: who is a nice person and people consider me, you know, 371 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: I'm nice to people that I don't try to hurt 372 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 1: people's feelings, like I tried to be a positive human being. 373 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,400 Speaker 1: And yeah, I think that just like be it being 374 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: good and nice and married, and a woman doesn't like 375 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: equate with you know, passionately falling in love or leaving 376 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: your husband or things like that. I started to think 377 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: about the way that Katie was judged, the shock of 378 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: it all, compared to the way philm was judged, which was, hey, 379 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: you're an asshole, but we'll get over. And I wonder 380 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: if it's because we expect this kind of behavior from them. 381 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: Maybe maybe not. But one thing I think we do 382 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: have to acknowledge is that women have the same desires 383 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: for sex, for passion, and for fulfillment as dudes do. 384 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:08,679 Speaker 1: Despite what society may have historically told us. We have 385 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: listened to all this hogwash science for decades, even centuries 386 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: that tell us that men are more naturally sexual than women. 387 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: What do we know based on more recent sex research data. 388 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 1: We know that women and men's libidos are very closely matched. 389 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: That's Wednesday again. If we look at data across many countries, 390 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:37,640 Speaker 1: what we find consistently is that in long term, exclusive 391 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 1: cohabiting relationships, women get bored of monogamous sex with their 392 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 1: long term partner they're living with more quickly than men do. 393 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: On average, a woman who is living with her male 394 00:24:55,320 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 1: long term partner in an exclusive arrangement will experience a 395 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,880 Speaker 1: steep drop and desire in years one to four, whereas 396 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: a man's desire will add more slowly over nine to 397 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:15,199 Speaker 1: twelve years. It has to do with evolutionary biology. It 398 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: has to do with the fact that in our evolutionary prehistory, 399 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: having multiple partners was really advantageous. For female hominence and women, 400 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: and it was disadvantageous for male hominence and men. And 401 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: that's another lie of science is that, oh, men can 402 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,159 Speaker 1: just spread their seed and create a million babies, but 403 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,719 Speaker 1: a woman can only create one, and that's why women 404 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 1: are monogamous and men are promiscus. Nope, that's also untrue. 405 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: It's very hard to hit a woman if you will 406 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,919 Speaker 1: at exactly the right moment to impregnate her. So if 407 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: you're a dude and you're pumping and dumping, as some 408 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:01,399 Speaker 1: people say, you're just going and having sex with all 409 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: these different women, what's the likelihood that you're going to 410 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,439 Speaker 1: get them at the right point in their menstrual cycle 411 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: where they're ovulating. Very slim chances, Whereas if you're with 412 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: one female partner and you're having sex with her, it's 413 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,919 Speaker 1: more likely. Right. So there's one reason that monogamy and 414 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:26,680 Speaker 1: exclusivity were more advantageous for males and many species. Second thing, 415 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 1: there were a lot of benefits to being what scientists 416 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: sometimes called promiscuous. Say you're some female mammal and you're 417 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: doing it with one male. What if he is infertile 418 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 1: m what if he just has kind of crappy sperm motility. 419 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:57,120 Speaker 1: What if you guys are too closely genetically matched so 420 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: that you don't have enough genetic differences that you will 421 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: create a robust pregnancy and offspring. If you're with this 422 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: one male, you're decreasing your chances of getting high quality sperm. 423 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,919 Speaker 1: So my view is an evolutionary biologist, is the software 424 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 1: is still in there. We have changed up the ecology 425 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: and now women could either get slut shamed or even 426 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: shot in the face right in the United States, get 427 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 1: murdered for exercising sexual autonomy and having an affair or 428 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: saying I don't want to be a monogamous So we 429 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: have changed the ecology, But the long wiring, all the 430 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: advantages that promiscuous behavior confirmed for thousands and thousands and 431 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 1: thousands of years, is still in there. And I believe 432 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: that that is the reason that monogamy is a tighter 433 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: shoe for women than it is for men. When we 434 00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: get back, we'll find out more about what happened after 435 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: or Katie and Film moved out of l A to 436 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 1: escape the fallout from their affair. We're back after the 437 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 1: fallout from their affair and leaving Los Angeles. It was 438 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: really hard for Katie and Phil to get back that spark. 439 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: We had a really hard time for like three years. 440 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: We broke up for like a really short period in there, 441 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 1: because we're just like, this isn't this isn't working, We're 442 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: not committed, we're not good. And after we broke up, 443 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: I think we both quickly realized that we really loved 444 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: each other and that even though it had started in 445 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: a negative and difficult way, that didn't mean that we 446 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: weren't compatible and that we weren't in love. Then we 447 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: started doing like hard adult work and like just really 448 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: trying to grow as people together and separately, and I 449 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: think that was kind of like the start of our 450 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: actual adulthood. I think that's really when I took responsibility 451 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: for who and what I was and he did too, 452 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: and we were like, we want to be together, we 453 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: want to have a family. We love each other, so 454 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,479 Speaker 1: let's just work hard. And we've been doing that ever since. 455 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: Katie and Phil eventually got married, and I had to 456 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: ask her what her ex husband's reaction was when he 457 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: found out they had finally settled down together when we 458 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 1: were broken up. I guess he had known just because 459 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: through the Grapevine situation, and he actually was willing to 460 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: exchange a few emails with me during that time, and 461 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: then as soon as we got back together and then 462 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: got married, he would no longer respond to me in 463 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: any way again. So that's I guess all the information 464 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: I have. Did you and Phil ever have problems with 465 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: trust because of how you got started? Yeah, at the beginning. 466 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: I remember his father one time asked him. Phil's father said, 467 00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: and why do you think that she won't just cheat? 468 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: Done you? And that's harsh, and I'm sure a lot 469 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: of people had that thought, and that that made me sad. 470 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: But I think that ultimately Phil didn't think I was 471 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 1: that kind of person, and he saw the ways that 472 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: I hadn't fostered, you know, my sexual connection in my 473 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: previous relationship, and we are very intentional and work really 474 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: hard at continuing to foster that in our relationship because 475 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: that piece is scary and I don't want to lose 476 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: that again. And then I mean, there was trust issues 477 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: from my end two because I felt like, well, maybe 478 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: he just did this with me because it was an 479 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: affair and it was really exciting and this kind of high, 480 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 1: and that didn't mean that he actually wanted to be 481 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 1: with me and didn't actually love me. So I think 482 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: my fears came from kind of that place. Do you 483 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: think that because of how you guys started, your marriage 484 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: is actually stronger, your relationship is actually better now? I 485 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: think in some ways, I think we learned so much 486 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: going through that situation. And even though Phil didn't get divorced, 487 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: I got divorced. He went through the divorce with me, 488 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: you know, and he was by my side and it 489 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: was hard and he saw that firsthand, and even you know, 490 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: experienced it a little bit. So that is interesting to 491 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: like start your relationship with someone by going through divorce 492 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: and like a really hard, sad divorce. And I think 493 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: that that just made us realize how hard you have 494 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: to work to be in a relationship that's successful, and 495 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: that as the years go on, you have to work 496 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: harder and harder. Not the opposite. Katie and Phil are 497 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 1: happier than ever before. Their marriage is solid, and they 498 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: recently had a baby. I'm a mom of a two 499 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: year old little girl and she's the best. And Katie 500 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: says that everything that happened between her and Phil and 501 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: after the affair has ultimately made their bond even stronger, 502 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 1: and frankly, it's helped her grow in ways she never 503 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: would have been able to if she hadn't acted on 504 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: her feelings. Sometimes, taking this scary leap in your life 505 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: in a variety of ways, this is one of them, 506 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: propels you into growth and understanding and compassion for other 507 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: people who are imperfect, because we are not perfect and 508 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 1: we have so much growing and learning to do. I 509 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: think at all parts of our life and I don't 510 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 1: regret being daring, and I don't regret following things that 511 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: filled me with passion and excitement. Of course, I regret 512 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: ever hurting someone else, but I hope that he was 513 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: able to grow in his own ways eventually from the 514 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 1: experience as well. Of the four categories of affairs that 515 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: researchers Susan Shapiro Barrish told us about in the last episode, 516 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: Katie's is a great example of a love affair, and 517 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: thankfully her love story worked out for eventually. Next up, 518 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 1: on the next episode, we have a very different kind 519 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: of affair, and this one is going to make you 520 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: rethink everything that you thought you knew about women and 521 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: their appetite for sex. Let's just say you like to 522 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 1: play tennis and you're really good at it, like really good. 523 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: And at some point you go to your partner and 524 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: you say, you know what, I really need to play 525 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: tennis with somebody who plays tennis at my love one. 526 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 1: Nobody would say, oh no, don't go find that person 527 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: and be like, yeah, I probably get it. You know, 528 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 1: you love this. This is one of your favorite things 529 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 1: in the whole world. Go find somebody who's this into 530 00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: it as you are. If you take out tennis and 531 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 1: say really fun, really great sex, yeah, and suddenly it's 532 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: not the same kind of activity. That's all in next 533 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 1: week's episode. This has been She Wants More. I'm your host, 534 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 1: Joe Piazza. Thanks for listening. She Wants More was inspired 535 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,360 Speaker 1: by the book A Passion for More by Susan Shapiro Bearish. 536 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,720 Speaker 1: It was adapted for audio by executive producers Merril Poster, 537 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: Kara Peiffer, and Susan Shapiro Bearish. She Wants More is 538 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 1: hosted and reported by me Joe Piazza. Jennifer Bassett is 539 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 1: our lead producer and story editor. Our sound design is 540 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: by Jessica Crunchich. Our theme was composed by Anna Stumpf 541 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 1: and Hamilton Lighthouser. Our executive producers for i Heeart are 542 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 1: Ali Perry and Nikki Eatore. She wants more as a 543 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:54,360 Speaker 1: production of i Heeart podcasts. For more podcasts from my Heart, 544 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 1: visit the i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 545 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. Two